This impressive image of four galaxies from Stephan’s Quintet shows Webb images as red and also includes images taken by Japan’s ground-based Subaru telescope in Hawaii. James Webb_NASA
“Your body is a temple, not a daily dumping ground for another person’s pain, anger, betrayal, judgment, hypocrisy, denial, games, jealousy or blame. When you are being psychologically, spiritually or emotionally abused by a person, and they don’t care how it hurts you, then it is time to leave what is polluting your relationship with God.” ― Shannon L. Alder
An insightful commenter at TWW wrote this post. She and her husband labored long, producing a well-documented post that clearly spells out what spiritual abuse looks like in a church setting. I have changed virtually nothing about the post but could not help myself by pointing out a few things that jumped out at me which I’ve clearly labeled. Many thanks to this couple. Also, if anyone else feels so led, contact Todd of me.
When the Good Go Bad
I realize that current or former members or staff of Sun River Church may read this. To them, in particular, I want to affirm that I had many wonderful experiences at the church. I have experienced the love of Jesus from many individuals there as they live out the Gospel in their day-to-day lives.
That makes sharing our story particularly poignant.
So, why write?
Because the kinds of incidents described here don’t happen in a vacuum. We want to open people’s eyes to the reality of what may be going on in their own congregations and churches. As you will hopefully see by the end, and to borrow the words of a particular leader quoted here, this indeed is a “Gospel” issue.
The broad theme that ties our story together is the damage that happens when language is spiritual but lives are not. As part of that, you will see leadership that demands accountability from others but resists accountability for itself. You will see leadership trying to be something that it is not. You will see leadership applying the wrong test for sound doctrine, and you will see that words matter.
To any who need to see our credentials before listening to David and I, they are available on our blog. But more importantly, here is the story of what we experienced at Sun River Church in Rancho Cordova, CA.
Our First Sojourn
I began attending Sun River Church in 2009. David joined when we got married in 2011, and we stayed there until early 2014. We were active in life stage groups, served on the Missions Committee, and helped with coffee cleanup for a time. I volunteered in the church nursery, and David taught various rotations in adult Sunday school classes. We got to know the senior pastor, the women’s director (who was also the senior pastor’s wife), and the associate pastor through these venues. Our interactions with the youth pastor, Andy, who later became associate pastor and eventually senior pastor at the church, were limited simply because we weren’t involved with the youth group.
We left the church with no hard feelings. David was looking for a church that more explicitly preached Reformed doctrine and was active in the church planting world, and I wanted a more intergenerational community. Looking back, we did not always handle our departure most maturely. But the leaders of the church we interacted with during this process were unfailingly gracious. We continued to recommend the church to other people in the area, including our family members, who later ended up attending.
Our Second Sojourn
Fast-forward five years to May 2019. We had found Reformed doctrine and intergenerational community at two other local churches but had also been burned by bad experiences there. There was no question in our minds– we both knew that we needed to return to Sun River because we trusted the leadership there. As we told more than one person upon returning, we now had a better understanding of what a “healthy church” looked like.
We were received back with open arms.
The senior pastor and his wife (the women’s director) had both left the church recently upon his retirement, as can be a normal and good practice. Our understanding was that, somewhere in the process of announcing his retirement, the former senior pastor had publicly recommended that Andy be promoted to the senior pastor position. A few months after we started attending, Andy was promoted from associate pastor to senior pastor (with a brief stint as interim senior pastor).
At some point, after Andy was presented to the congregation as the finalist for the position before the congregation voted to affirm him as senior pastor, elders visited the adult Sunday school classes to answer questions. At least one of the elders expressed the sentiment that Andy would “mature” into the position. When I heard this, I wondered to myself–after being explicitly groomed for the position by the previous senior pastor for (at least) ten years, how much more “maturing” would Andy have to do before he was ready for it?
A Pattern of Dismissiveness, Deception, and Hot-Headedness Emerges
While Andy was still candidating for the senior pastor position, he happened to be teaching marital communication to our Sunday school class. According to Andy, “effective communication is when the receiver responds as intended.” (Editor Dee comment: This definition is important) This is a problematic definition, as it removes the dignity of choice from the receiver and is open to manipulation and abuse on the part of the speaker.
Andy was dismissive of concerns raised by multiple people in class, not allowing himself to be answerable to their critiques of his definition. (For more on this particular incident, see Precision of Language–Definitions Matter.)
A few months later, having been promoted to senior pastor, Andy preached a sermon on “this thing you’ve probably not heard of before, covenant membership.” David and I exchanged a glance because covenant membership (with particular emphasis on the highly spiritual word “covenant”) had been a defining characteristic of the two churches we’d attended between our different sojourns at Sun River. It had not been the golden panacea that had been promised. Instead, it allowed leaders to set themselves up as authority figures who could not be questioned in the slightest while projecting a false sense of accountability to the flock (see A Letter to my Friends at our Former Church).
I emailed Andy, shared some of our story and why we had questions/concerns and asked if we (he, David, and I) could meet. He graciously agreed.
The week of our meeting, the kids and I came down with nasty sinus infections. I emailed Andy and asked to reschedule the meeting. We also canceled the birthday party we had scheduled for our eldest that weekend. The following week, our state went into COVID lockdowns.
I dropped the ball. I never followed up with Andy to reschedule the meeting.
Covenant and Congregational Membership Gone Wrong
During the summer, the church held its annual congregational meeting to approve the next fiscal year’s budget and to vote on new elders. (Jonah–Gospel Shaped Mercy, 8.9.20, see brief reference to a business meeting following the service at minute 50:20) Elders had term limits and rotated on and off the board. To the best of my recollection, elders were nominated by a committee made up of congregation members, presented to the board who, had to approve the nominees, and then to the congregation at large and voted on by the congregation. The meeting went smoothly, as was typical for the church. The congregation voted to approve the proposed budget and all three elder candidates. David and I attended the meeting but did not vote, having not yet gone through the membership process again after our time away.
Having served on the Missions Committee, David wondered why the church was cutting back the mission’s budget. It was explained that the church needed to tighten its budget due to reduced giving and was cutting out everything that was not currently being spent. This sat a bit uncomfortably for David since the approximately 500,000 for pastoral salaries remained untouched, even though there were only 4 full-time pastors in the church instead of the 5.5 positions from the previous fiscal year.
The very next Sunday, Andy announced that the worship pastor was being let go, that the entire pastoral staff was going through a reorganization, and that the church was heading in “a new direction.”(Jonah–Gospel Shaped Mercy, 8.16.20, starting around 49:55)
We were shocked. None of these are decisions that were made in the space of a week. Reorganizing the pastoral staff (which included layoffs) has a direct influence on the budget which the congregation was supposed to approve. For example, a $500,000 line item for now only three full-time pastoral salaries. The information was withheld before the previous week’s vote, and the congregation was denied the opportunity to make an informed decision and vote accordingly. A process that had been enacted in the church constitution as a check on leadership’s authority was circumvented. We are baffled as to where the elder board was in this decision to withhold information.
Instead, leadership signaled that the congregation did not need to be meaningfully involved in such critical decisions about the direction of the church or the budget. Ironically, leadership that was shifting church membership toward a contractual “covenant” membership (we assume including submission to elders), clearly showed that they were ok disregarding the original constitutional contract requiring congregants to be involved in budgetary decisions as a means to protect from financial indiscretion.
A few Sundays later, (Ed. Dee: not unlike Todd Wilhelm’s situation at UCCD) a former member of the congregation who had already left the congregation was formally and retroactively excommunicated from the church. David and I were present during the announcement. The former member was not directly named. I have no idea who it was, but the whole situation was very awkward, and I wondered what the point of it was. From my perspective, it felt mostly like posturing on the part of leadership to show how “Biblical” they were being. Neither of our two former churches that practiced “covenant” membership had ever gone that far during our times there. [I cannot find record of this on the church’s website, but there are also a couple of sermon videos missing from around this time.]
David and I were seriously concerned at this point. We were seeing signs of heavy-handedness and deception on the part of leadership. But we were loath to leave behind community that we felt was just beginning to form with other Sun River attendees, and also didn’t want to make waves that could reflect poorly on our family members who attended the same church.
The Tipping Point
The tipping point came not too long afterward. Andy repeated COVID misinformation from the pulpit during a sermon (Foundation Plan, 9.13.20, starting at minute 51:05). He actually mis-quoted the misinformation, which demonstrated to me how unfamiliar he was with the topic. Thanks to a blog post from Warren Throckmorton two weeks prior (About that Quiet CDC Report of Deaths From Covid), I was already aware of the rumor.
I emailed Andy and politely requested the source of the COVID information. I started the email by expressing appreciation for “in particular your emphasis on communicating with grace, gentleness, and patience with people we disagree; you’re right about there not being enough of that going around lately.” I said that the COVID information he shared had caught me off-guard, so I’d researched it, as he had encouraged individuals to do in his sermon. (I had confirmed Warren Throckmorton’s evidence and did some additional research of my own using other sources before emailing Andy.) I said that I thought he (and whoever his source was) had inadvertently misunderstood the information and asked where he had originally come across it. I also pointed out discrepancies in his timeline of when the information had been updated. Throughout the email, I provided numerous source citations, like any decent researcher would.
I did not tell Andy that I had already known about the misinformation because I wanted to give him the opportunity to come clean and didn’t want to come across as a know-it-all. In hindsight, I’m not sure if this was the right decision.
Andy totally misunderstood my email.
“You found the information that I referenced… directly recorded on the CDC website however most/if not all media outlets are skewed… At the end of the day there is only one true source that I believe people should be pursuing[,] God’s Word.”
Andy did not name his source but implied that it was information he had come across himself. Which I find very hard to believe, as the statistic Andy was referencing was buried on the CDC’s website (COVID-19 Provisional Counts, Weekly Updates by Select Criteria) and not likely to be something someone casually stumbles across. Andy’s email to me was very heavy in the spiritual language but very lacking in transparency. He even went so far as to introduce “pursuing God’s Word” as a red herring. Like his actions in the Sunday school class regarding marital communication, Andy was resisting accountability for words he spoke publicly while acting in a leadership capacity.
In my response, I clarified what I meant, providing additional support that Andy was misrepresenting the data and asking again where he had originally heard the misinformation.
Andy’s reply was completely inappropriate. He was dismissive and defensive. He also outright lied, claiming that he had prepared his sermon several weeks in advance when I pointed out discrepancies in his stated timeline. While that may have been technically true, it was clear from his mannerisms that the part of the sermon in question had been ad-libbed and not scripted “weeks” in advance. He outright stated in the email that “I [Andy] noticed different numbers last week” on the CDC website, which, as I’ve noted above, is highly unlikely.
Furthermore, Andy weaponized scripture to imply that I was too much “in the World” and not enough “in the Word.” He included his “cliff notes” version of what God was teaching him from Psalm One for my edification:
“We need to be SEPARATED from the World and its influences… We need to be SATURATED in God’s Word… We need to be SITUATED in God’s presence” (emphasis original, including bold, underlines, all-caps, and font color).
Apparently, God really needed to get Andy’s attention. Personally, I had been reading the Bible daily for two years at that point, even though it was not part of my full-time, salaried occupation. I also had hardly any time for social media. And the Bible has nothing to say about COVID or the CDC, but social media sure did.
Yet Andy claimed he didn’t
“spend a lot of time researching media or websites to get information because anything from our culture or world is not free from bias or dishonestly [sic] or the ‘schemes of the devil.’ Most of my time is spent reading, studying, and preaching God’s Word as truth. This is my calling and I am a fallible person.”
Andy was ticking off all the right spiritual phrases (I am fallible, most of my time is spent in God’s Word, etc.), but his overall tone and attitude were anything but.
Andy also warned me against my emails becoming
“an opening for Satan to bring a wedge between us.”
RUDE. And a thinly veiled threat.
Even though Andy had encouraged the congregation to be gracious and gentle with those with whom we disagree, he demonstrated a distinct lack of this in his communication with me. He also displayed a disturbing lack of media literacy. We don’t want pastors to be quoting Pelagians or Arians, known heretics. A pastor should easily be able to apply similar principles of critical thinking to something as easy as reading the news.
To be clear, it is not the topic of COVID specifically that bothered me. If Andy thought that the CDC was lying about it, he could present his evidence, and we could have a conversation. It was the lie (which Andy repeated) about the CDC lying that bothered me. It also bothered me that Andy had parroted a piece of information from the pulpit and backed it up with his authority as pastor without verifying its accuracy.
People are entitled to make mistakes. But instead of recognizing his mistake and making up for it, Andy doubled down and attacked the messenger. His response frankly shocked me in its level of intensity. It infuriated my husband, who rightfully perceived his wife’s character being unfairly criticized.
David responded the following day. The email was respectful but also outlined a number of specific critiques.
For example, David said:
I am sorry for painting this in such a black and white way. But the truth matters. And when you speak things as truth from the pulpit it is important that they stand the test of reason. It is even more critical when you openly criticize false sources of truth (i.e. the news) and then try and present a false claim as a true fact. If you recklessly compromise your credibility by dispensing false claims, how do you expect people to respect your credibility when it comes to the Bible? [emphasis added]
Andy, I am not trying to label you as a liar. I honestly believe you simply communicated unknowingly false information in a way that supports an agenda I don’t personally support. I also believe you blew off criticism without carefully examining it.
David also pointed out that Andy was acting more like a cult leader than a pastor at times, with both his inability to accept critique and his stated preference to control people’s sources of information:
Perhaps it most saddens me that the only real wrong you admitted to was this: ‘However, you have helped me to see that I made one crucial mistake on Sunday. What I should have said was ‘you can go look at the CDC website for yourself however don’t waste your time, it is far more useful for you to spend your time reading and studying the truth from God’s Word.’ [emphasis, both bold and italic, original to Andy’s email]
Please note that the only addition was the ‘don’t waste your time’ verifying the claims from the CDC website. Really? Are you really telling people they should not waste their time verifying claims you made? Is it really ok for you to consult the CDC, but not us? If pastors are making factual claims from the pulpit they can be tested. They are not immune to truth tests. If pastors make Biblical claims from the pulpit, they should be tested by other faithful congregants who love Jesus and love his word. Do you care about maintaining the integrity of the pulpit and the witness of Christ’s church? In humility you should crave correction and growth of understanding of both the Gospel and God’s created order. Are you a cult leader? I know you are not, but those seem to be the only ones saying don’t waste your time considering outside influences and questioning what I say.
David copied the entire elder board on his email.
Andy’s reply a couple of days later was more subdued. He did offer an apology. However, the thing he apologized for was my chosen method of communication, not any of the words he chose to write. The entirety of the body of his email is:
“Our written discourse lacks body language, facial expression, and dialogue that bring understanding, which has become a mess of misinterpretation and misunderstanding. I am truly sorry and saddened about the way this has played out. We will honor your desire not to meet in person. Yet we value you as part of Sun River. If you change your mind and want to meet with the elders, we are willing to do so.”
I would point out that meeting in-person does not necessarily provide documentation for what was or was not communicated and eliminates a reliable witness. Andy had already shown his cards. He was not willing to hold himself accountable for his words in writing nor for concerns brought up in person in a class. Meeting with him, and those who also showed little concern for holding him accountable, would not be productive, especially in person, where observed patterns of hotheadedness and dismissiveness would only be more threatening. David had considered coordinating a discussion with a more mature, well-respected third party (perhaps one of the previous pastors), but the complications of COVID stood in the way.
To his credit, one elder reached out to David with a phone call. The elder acknowledged that he had also seen a problem with the COVID misinformation and approached Andy directly about it. This was encouraging. But the elder reported that Andy dismissed his concerns as “not a Gospel issue,” which, as David’s email to Andy should have made clear, is a red herring.
The elder wasn’t sure how to proceed from there. He said that he was still a fairly new believer and brand new to the elder board and wasn’t sure what else he could do. (I wondered at the wisdom of placing a fairly new believer on an elder board in the first place.) The elder did not bring up Andy’s outsized and inappropriate reaction to my emails and did not acknowledge that the words Andy chose to write and then send to me were high-handed and not appropriate, coming from a shepherd to a member of his flock. It is also concerning that Andy was so openly dismissive to me (and others we have since discovered), who raised concerns even after being challenged by an elder.
It is extremely concerning that a member of the elder board felt unable to hold a pastor accountable. What is the point of having an elder board, then? David thinks this young elder was caught up in the familiar mantra that elders need to protect the flock from a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Perhaps it would be wise to reread Acts 20:29-30 and ask,
“Does the flock need to be protected from wolves in sheep’s clothing, or from wolves in shepherd’s clothing?”
This interaction with Andy, in which certain works of the flesh were far more apparent than fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5), and the apparent lack of accountability from the elder board solidified our sad but resigned decision to leave Sun River.
A Catalyst for Division
Two months later, while preaching through a series on Revelation, Andy included an “8th Letter to the Church at Sun River” in his sermon:
To the church at Sun River write, the words of the One who is unified, holy, and true. I know your fears and desires. You desire to obey My word and fear Me as opposed to fearing man, but the enemy is pressing against you from all sides and infecting you on the inside. There is a spirit of division among you, and a judgmental spirit that is fueled by either fear or pride. Wake up! Don’t you see that you are conforming to the world? Where is your light? Where is your salt? Maybe they have been quarantined.
Return to faithful worship of me in spirit and in truth. Repent of the atrophy that is weakening My body. Your mask mutes my explicit gospel to a lost world. Come together in fellowship, be unified, set apart from the world, and defend the truth.
To the one who fears the Lord will come wisdom, honor, and glory.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. [emphasis original]
Andy furthermore emailed this letter to the entire church’s mailing list (which I happened to still be a part of, which is how I learned about it) a few days later, on December 3, 2020.
As my sister pointed out when I forwarded this to her in disbelief, if a mask can mute the gospel, maybe you have the wrong gospel.
In a country and a church community that was experiencing high levels of tension and division, the senior pastor picked an extreme faction of a specific side and used politically charged, fear-mongering language from the pulpit to get the rest of the church over to his side. Without nuance. Without acknowledgment that “true” believers can see arguments to be made for either side and remain faithful to the Word in deciding how to navigate the politics of the day.
How is this anything other than divisive? [For some reason, both the original sermon and the previous week’s are missing from the church’s website.]
A year later, California was having a heated gubernatorial recall election. David was still part of a messaging app that the Sunday school life stage group we were in had used. One of the guys posted to the guys’ group how he was voting. David chimed in. He pointed out that:
there were a variety of viewpoints represented in the group but all could still “glorify God and influence society enabled by the love of Christ.”
Andy, who was also in the group, made some very heated remarks in response to David’s message, including phrases such as
“It’s a defining mark of a true followers [sic] of Jesus…. The true Christian proclaims [one particular viewpoint]… Please don’t vote [for the other viewpoint] and say it glorifies God!” And “Make sure you vote… it’s pretty simple… there is only one vote that is right in Gods [sic] eyes.”
David responded that this particular candidate had openly said that the political issue Andy had so heatedly brought into the discussion was not even on the candidate’s priority list. David pointed out that
“things like character and caring for the oppressed are very valid considerations. California needs changed hearts, more than changed votes. Hearts are not going to be changed by the arrogant, abrasive way you have treated my wife, myself, and others I love who have dared to offer a differing biblical perspective. Please don’t treat people this way and say it glorifies God. We have chosen not to be part of a narrowmonder [sic] fear-mongering faith like that peddled at Sun River.”
David then removed himself from the communications platform used by the group.
To his credit, Andy reached out via text individually to David later. Andy apologized for how he communicated and said,
“It is 100% my fault and I want you to know that in no way was I inferring or meaning to infer that you are not a true follower of Christ… I have communicated the same thing [to the group who saw the discussion].”
The very next Sunday after this communication, David’s dad (whom David had told about the communication as a trusted advisor and who still attended the church at that time) told us that Andy had mentioned the interaction in his sermon. Naturally, I went and listened to it online. Andy stated,
in the context of unity within the church, “I tell you, even this past week, I’ve made mistakes to other brothers and had to go back and say, ‘I’m sorry. You’re a brother in Christ. I was out of line. It’s the Spirit of God that convicts me.’” (Blessed Assurance, starting minute 33:50)
But listening to Andy’s words in that sermon left a bad taste in my mouth.
Because what Andy didn’t say to the congregation was
“I was harsh and abrasive with my words. So much so that this family has left the church because of how I’ve treated them when we disagree.”
He did not say,
“In my anger I wrongfully preached to a large group of people a false gospel, saying voting [a certain way on one issue] is a mark of true Christian”.
Instead, Andy was using this example to show how he ostensibly promoted unity within the church. Yet, in the original text exchange, it was David who promoted unity. Andy did the exact opposite. Andy’s apology, which was the focus of this illustration, was a mere bandaid to a Monty Python-esque “flesh wound” of division within the church. Division that Andy was a catalyst for.
The pattern of deception, hot-headedness, and only apologizing when others saw his overreactions had continued.
What Starts with the Best of Intentions
I was disappointed by the elder board’s lack of response to Andy’s emails to me. With the “new direction” being talked about at the church, leadership spoke a lot about accountability. I don’t have a problem with two-way accountability. But when accountability turns out to be one-sided, that’s not a church. That’s a cult. (If I may be so blunt.)
If there was any accountability going on with Andy from the elder board, whether with the decision to withhold timely budget information from the congregation, to pass an unsubstantiated covid rumor from the pulpit, to lose his temper via email with me, or to lose his temper again and tell my husband that a “true follower of Christ” only votes one way, David and I certainly did not see any evidence of it. Instead, his unwise decisions were allowed to continue unchecked and be a driving force for division.
(Editor Dee comment: If you have not listened to this, it is well worth your time.) As events unfolded over the summer of 2020, I happened to be listening to the interview Warren Throckmorton did with Sutton Turner and Dave Bruskas, former executive elders of Mars Hill Church. (Blog Theme: Mars Hill Church–Interview with Dave Bruskas and Sutton Turner, Part One) And I kept wishing that the elders and pastoral staff of Sun River Church would listen to the interview, too. To see that what can start with the absolute best of intentions can go so horribly wrong.
I don’t use the word sin lightly because I have seen it misused and abused too many times. But unrepentant, unrighteous anger, such as that demonstrated by Andy, is a sin. Deception simply to preserve one’s image or ego, especially when done “in the name of Jesus,” is a sin.
One does not put an individual in a position of spiritual authority over dozens, if not hundreds, of people hoping that they will “mature into it.” That does a disservice both to the flock and to the individual who is not mature enough for this kind of responsibility. It is our opinion, backed up by the documented evidence we have presented here, that, at a minimum, Andy is in over his head as senior pastor and is perhaps unfit to be in any position of church authority.
Unfortunately, we haven’t had any of the positive experiences others seem to have had with Andy. His struggles to maintain control and function in the role of senior pastor are damaging himself, are damaging the flock, and are damaging the name of the church. If I sound passionate about this, it is because I personally know people who have left individual churches, have left the church entirely, or have even abandoned their belief in God because of the kinds of situations described here. And that is not OK. Church, we need to do better. Sun River, you need to do better.
Moving Forward Must Begin with Truth
In spite of our experiences, there is still hope for the future of Sun River Church.
As I’ve stated previously, I am not a professional. But when we look to experts in the field of spiritual abuse, we see a clear path forward.
Diane Langberg, internationally recognized psychologist and counselor for trauma and spiritual abuse, points the way in her book “Redeeming Power, Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church.”
The power of a person is found in likeness to Jesus Christ. It is not found in brilliance, gifting, knowledge, position, verbal power, reputation, or fame. It is found when a mere person, such as yourself, flings open the corridors and closets of their life so that they are full of the light and love of God. [pg 171]
“God is Light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we know him and yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth” (1 John 1:5-6)… The entrance of light anywhere exposes reality. Light brings truth. The person of Christ is Light. We, God’s children, say we have a relationship with this God who is Light. Then we should welcome his light. He says, “If you say you know me and yet walk in darkness, you are a liar” (1 John 1:6). That is crystal clear. We cannot deal in darkness while claiming a relationship with light. [pg 165]
It seems clear that God is calling us, as he did the Israelites, to see, to listen, and to stop believing deceptive words that somehow lead us to hide or silence abuse and call it protection of the church. [pg 194]
The first step is a return to Jesus. Not to a pastor, not to a church, but to Jesus. Whom we then allow to shine a light of radical honesty and openness in the dark recesses of our institutions and souls. After all, when we read the Gospels, we consistently see that the people Jesus saves his harshest words for are religious leaders who abuse the system and misconstrue scripture.
It is not too late to correct the course for either Sun River or Andy personally. While I am not trying to claim that Andy is a narcissist, I think the book “When Narcissism Comes to Church, Healing your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse” can still provide insight and direction for recovery from spiritual abuse, even for perpetrators. Licensed therapist and professor of pastoral care Chuck DeGroat reminds us of the following:
We are complex, a vast immensity, a mystery to ourselves, known only and ultimately by a God who seems fearless in the face of our complexity, capable of loving each of us and all of us in our beauty and brokenness. And because of this, I can believe that someone who has been diagnosed as narcissistic is seen and known to his depths by a God who refuses to reduce anyone to a label, who both confronts sin with an utter seriousness and offers grace with utter lavishness. [pg 149]
[Quoting the novel “Glittering Images” by Susan Howatch, a conversation where a priest is confronted about his false self, his “glittering image,” by a spiritual director]
I’m becoming interested in this other self of yours, the self nobody meets. I’d like to help him come out from behind the glittering image and set down this appalling burden which has been tormenting him for so long… [W]hen a traveler’s staggering along with a back-breaking amount of luggage he doesn’t need someone to pat him on the head and tell him how wonderful he is. He needs someone who’ll offer to share the load. [pgs 152-153]
It won’t be easy to change, but it’s not too late. We believe in a God who changes human hearts and works miracles for the good of all people. He can do this at Sun River and with Andy, too.
Wade Mullen, professor, researcher, and advocate, reminds us of community responsibility in his book “Something’s Not Right, Decoding the Hidden Tactics of Abuse and Freeing Yourself from Its Power:”
Abuse is not someone else’s personal and private matter that we can ignore out of a concern for minding our own business, nor is it a matter to be only attended to by a select few in leadership positions. Abuse is a community concern. Therefore, the question must be asked of each of us: In what ways am I perpetuating an abusive culture through my silence or tacit endorsement of those who are in the wrong? It is not a question of simple beliefs or values but a question of practice. Practically speaking, what kind of people should we be once a secret is out? Do we ignore what is behind the curtain because we want the show to go on? How long do we continue to provide abusers with the very things they use deception to gain? Do we keep handing them our money? Keep sitting at their feet? Keep following their lead? [pgs 178-179]
Because abuse breeds in secrecy, confronting it is doing the opposite of what it wants you to do: confronting abuse is seeing it when it wants you to look away; making sense of what you are facing when it wants you to accept confusion; opposing it when it wants you to remain converted; speaking when it wants you to be silent. Confronting is choosing. More than anything, abuse takes away your agency – your ability to choose for yourself. Finding that agency is an important step toward freedom and recovery. Certainly, there will still be fear – for me, every decision I made after speaking out against our church leadership was fraught with fear. But I cannot describe the depth of freedom I felt when I finally started to advocate for myself. [pgs 173-174]
Epilogue
I saw Andy at a local restaurant a few weeks ago; he was out with one of the elders. I didn’t see them until they were already walking past my table. From where I was sitting, it would have been hard for them not to see me. It was just me and the kids, so David (who is both my security blanket and stalwart defender when it comes to dealing with paternalistic pastors) wasn’t there.
And I realized that I wasn’t afraid, which was a wonderful gift. So wonderful that I splurged for dessert with the kids, even though it meant we had to be there longer.
Great post! I’m sure portions of it sound very familiar to Wartburgers who have experienced the same thing with authoritarian pastors and weak elder boards. There are too many unqualified “Andy’s” in American pulpits, hindering the Body of Christ from moving forward.
“… while preaching through a series on Revelation, Andy included an “8th Letter to the Church at Sun River” in his sermon …”
Pastor Andy needed to read a little farther in Revelation where John warns “Now I bear solemn witness to every man who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to these words God will add to him the disasters described in this book” (Revelation 22:18-19).
Pastor, it would be wise to tread very softly with sermon illustrations, twisted Scripture, and “fear-mongering language” designed to attack individual church members with us-against-them divisive preaching.
Pingback: When the Good Go Bad – Why Have We Fasted
I read this and wondered……. Is this “pastor” trying to be the west coast version. Of Mark Dever (albeit in a lazy fashion, with no patience, and no tact)?
Then, I looked through the website and Googled the pastor. He has a degree from the same seminary as Tim LaHaye and (drumroll, please) Mark Driscoll……. Just sayin’.
And Sarah, if you’re keeping track of the comments:
I am pleased that your husband is ready and willing stand up for you, but I don’t think you need him as a security blanket… at least not anymore. I think you’re going to do just fine! One of these days, David may just need you to be his security blanket! Teamwork!
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
To probably no one here’s surprise, Andy quoted Mark Dever during the “this thing you’ve probably not heard of before, covenant membership” sermon. And subsequent sermons. Although I think John Piper was one of his favorite theologians; Piper quotes appeared frequently in sermons, and a short-lived podcast Andy made in 2020 was called “Pursuing God.”
Small world regarding Western Seminary.
And thank you, Nancy, for the compliment. David is faster on his feet than I in conversation, which is probably why I (overly) rely on him in these kinds of situations. But there’s also the phenomenon in conservative evangelical spheres where some men simply won’t listen to sense unless it’s from another man, so, there’s that.
This seems like an appropriate post to post TGC’s recent post:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/joyfully-submit-male-leadership/
New-Calvinists place way too much trust in pastors, and not nearly enough trust in the people in the congregations.
John 10:5: “A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him,for they do not know the voice of strangers.”
Throughout history, the Church has always been a Trinity. The Father Church is invisible. The Jesus church is a visible body, organized. But when this church usurps the authority vested in Jesus alone, a third church arises: the divisible Holy Spirit church. God uses what I call “dispersion events” (sometimes large scale, often small) to purify the church. January 3, 1521 began one, when Martin Luther was excommunicated. Another started in China in 1950 when the Christian Manifesto triggered the house church movement in China. I think we are currently in another dispersion event. From 1999 to 2019, church membership has declined from 70% to 47%.
Orgs like 9marks that promote an unbilical leadership model (and who gaslight,teaching that those who leave are sinning) will continue to cause God’s sheep to vote with their feet.
That’s because it’s all about the “man of God” in NeoCal ministries, rather than the “people of God.” Rather than just being one member of the Body (the Biblical teaching), the pastor is elevated to “the” member. The mission of New Calvinism is to contain congregations under an overlord to indoctrinate and dominate … rather than recognizing, equipping, and mobilizing the Body of Christ to be engaged in the Great Commission together, where the pastor is no more important than the pew.
The authority and influence of Jesus are waning in the American church. New Calvinism is the best current example.
It’s strange that for Sarah and David the tipping point was not the dishonesty about the money, the covenant contracts, the wrong footing about organisation (and probably the bad judgments about appointments) – all combined. Why sit around and wait till all of you get tied in knots by politicians?
A politically accredited enquiry operative (member of a government panel) was appointed to sort out problems in my parish and neighbouring parishes (in a major denomination but not the “established” church). The trouble makers were in the wrong, and the regional church authority that appointed this operative was in the right. This operative then invited some press to private sessions unannounced (who however agreed to leave).
Then when his report claimed to come down on the side of right and against the trouble makers, his detailed “argumentation” was so full of non sequiturs that it came across as obviously very shoddy, weakened the resolve of some vulnerable parishioners to disentangle themselves, and thereby led to the trouble makers regaining a footing with far worse ramifications.
So the world’s standard of manoeuvring isn’t always good either. In countless congregations in numerous countries, congregants have to put up with the fact of flabby sermons of the kind Sarah and David sat through, even without the occurrence of covenant contracts, dishonesty over money or snootiness towards women.
Jesus always evaded political situations however plausible in others’ eyes. Whether you stay or leave, the core knack is surely to eschew the paradigms both of politics, and bad religion. According to Godel’s Theorem, a button pressing problem isn’t wholly resolvable within the button pressing system.
Blaspheming Holy Spirit gifts in children.
Sarah, I’m so sorry for what you and David experienced. Sadly, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find churches that are biblically-centered, rather than pastor-centered. Matthew 23:4 (NIV) comes to mind: “They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.”
Furthermore, you’re right: “The first step is a return to Jesus. Not to a pastor, not to a church, but to Jesus.” Sadly, few of us are willing to do that, let alone church leaders.
I’m also suspicious of the salaries for only three pastors. Now, this might include the costs of FICA, health insurance, and the like, yet it seems excessive.
I attend a liturgy centered church (Lutheran), not hard to find at all.
The liturgy is all derived from Scripture.
No drama, no alpha-male strong-man in the pulpit, no authoritarian nonsense.
Just great people and coffee and donuts afterwards.
My question: After you leave a church over major differences, how long do you keep up the fight? The last church I left over huge issues with pastoral leadership, boundaries(they had a janitor with a criminal record making heavy breathing calls to church women at night), meddling with members-I LEFT! No emailing, social media, anything of that nature. I wanted to be free of the crazy. The crazy doesn’t usually fix itself until there is a total leadership reorganization or until the church falls apart. I just don’t see the point of continuing direct communication with leadership and members if there seems to be no hope of change.
Obviously if there is a criminal complaint involved or the church comes after a former member publicly, that would be different. But, I don’t get the point of continuing to engage once you leave.
That clearly states the current mess in the American church. Being Biblically-centered leads the Body of Christ in the right direction … being pastor-centered can take you anywhere! I’m not sure at what point the church got off track – more pastor-focused, than Christ-focused – but we’re there … perhaps when the Great God Entertainment moved in and pastors started entertaining the flock as actors on a stage, rather than preaching the Gospel as men of God.
Not if “Bible-centered/Bible-believing” gets Weaponized for the beatdown or quoted to justify corruption.
Didn’t the Second(?) Commandment originally mean claiming God’s Sanction (if not God’s direct command chapter-and-verse) for doing evil?
Sometimes the only thing you CAN do is punch out — brace yourself on the seat, reach down to the cockpit floor between your legs, and pull the Real Loud Handle.
Which, of course, is not authentic Bible-centered/Bible-believing.
As Medieval Romish Popery did in their Priests & Bishops?
Ex Cathedra Decrees from the Chair of Calvin.
All Genuflect and Kiss His Ring.
Not in my rural Kentucky neck of the woods. The closest Lutheran church to me is a 40 minute drive, each way. The population of Kentucky is about 35% Baptist.
There is a bit more nuance than just “politics” being the tipping point. We had one foot out the door by the time this incident happened. Politics had come up before (this WAS 2020, remember?), and we had stuck it out up to this point.
The tipping point was the inability to accept correction and the inability of the elder board to hold the pastor accountable. The misinformation Andy passed on from the pulpit was well-documented, easily researched, and easily refuted. He refused to engage with any of the evidence in any meaningful way, instead questioning my character (the tactic of someone who doesn’t have any other leg to stand on). And the elder board was either passive or unable to hold him to any meaningful level of accountability.
The inability to accept correction and ineffectual elder board has a domino effect on any other problems that arise, such as dishonesty about finances and questions regarding “covenant” membership agreements.
To borrow a phrase from a premarital counselor David used to know, this was the first time we stuck a stick in a bush and really rattled it around to see what came out. What came out was not attractive, to say the least.
from blog post: “While I am not trying to claim that Andy is a narcissist,”
++++++++++++++++
i contend that what is narcissistic (& what is neurotic, manipulative, even unethical)
…is simply baked into the current amalgam of the “church leadership” industry (as taught and practiced).
it’s a wonder to me.
otherwise good and decent human beings* are bamboozled into it, behaving in narcissistic, neurotic, manipulative, and unethical ways.
they are oblivious to it.
a person of influence wielding the ‘God’ card, the ‘Gospel-driven’ card, the ‘biblical’ card, can persuade many people who are already ‘christians’ to sign on to anything.
.
.
(note: these cards have no power with people outside the christian cultural bubble…. many of whom live their lives with and for God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit.)
.
.
*I am not trying to claim that Andy is an otherwise good and decent human being — i have no way of knowing.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“This seems like an appropriate post to post TGC’s recent post: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/joyfully-submit-male-leadership/”
++++++++++++++++
elastigirl,
…horsefeathers (very hard to be that restrained with that compound word, instead of my favorite)
just long is TGC, denny burk, et al going to prattle on about “male” stuff
i’ve had enough associating my silly religion (which used to be something i was proud to be a part of) with “male”…. and the concomitant stinky “male” men’s restroom at church.
(i would know — years of volunteering to clean)
Linn,
“But, I don’t get the point of continuing to engage once you leave.”
++++++++++++
the point i see is out of concern for the welfare of others caught in the tractor beam.
(for the sake of this whole silly religion, even)
convincing the source of the tractor beam to retool is viable thing.
This is a question we’ve asked ourselves a lot. And I don’t think there’s one answer that’s going to fit every situation. So, sorry Dee and GBTC for the length of this comment.
Sometimes leaving cold-turkey is going to be what’s best for your own sanity. And sometimes it’s forced upon you by leadership who effectively shuns you and kicks you off all church communication platforms (that was our A29 church).
But these were our friends (and literal family members, for a time). Some of them we’d known for years. They’d grieved with us when we had a miscarriage and celebrated with us at the births of our subsequent children. And they were in a church that was gradually becoming more and more cult-like. They would quite possibly reject this label (as I would have during my own time in a different cult-like church), but they were becoming oppressed.
And isn’t that one of the more persistent themes of scripture, helping the oppressed? (And the subsequent question, “Even when they don’t want it?” But that’s too much of a rabbit trail for now.)
Sometimes you have a difficult conversation for the sake of the person you’re talking with. And sometimes you have a difficult conversation knowing you’re not going to persuade the person you’re talking to, but for the sake of the people around you who are listening, those who may be on the fence, or more persuadable, or see the same problems as you but are not of a personality or in a position to be able to speak up.
I had come across an old post by Julie Anne Smith about helping friends or family members in cults, and it boiled down to (my paraphrase) “just be a friend. There’s no persuading them out of it, so concentrate on the relationship instead of the logic.” https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/08/02/help-my-family-member-or-close-friend-is-trapped-in-a-high-controlling-church-or-cult-how-can-i-encourage-them-to-leave/
And that’s why we tried to stay engaged even after formally leaving. At times this was too much for our sanity, and we gradually disengaged.
As for why post on social media now? We hope for a change, but we don’t expect it. Regardless, we want people to know what they are being asked to submit to with their time and their tithe. That can’t happen by staying silent. And one person’s story may be dismissed as an anomaly. But I strongly suspect there are others out there. And they’re only going to come to light if somebody starts talking.
New Calvinists use a few token women here and there to help promote “the beauty of complementarity.” I’ve visited New Calvinist church plants in my area, observing young mothers and their children walking behind their husbands in submission, being ignored when “pastor” greets only the husband with a high five, and sitting silent with nothing to offer in church because they’ve been told that’s not their role. Beautiful?! Looks pretty ugly to me … you can feel the oppression, see it on their countenance.
Linn,
PTCD can last for years … (Post Traumatic Church Disorder)
In my neck of the woods Lutherans are also a minority. And that said, also into authoritarian control.
Max, that’s a good description. I have used the term “PTSD” in recent years, but have read a few articles lately on “moral injury,” which may work better for some. Here is a portion of an email I sent to a friend a few months ago, with link to an article:
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
But still, there’s gotta’ be a worthwhile church near you, even if it isn’t Lutheran.
What I refer to as “Post Traumatic Church Disorder” (PTCD) has caused a lot of spiritual injury as well, a form of abuse experienced in patriarchal authoritarian “ministries.”
IMO, the Holy Spirit within you was grieved by what you experienced in church. You agonized because the Holy Spirit agonized – grieved and quenched. Church trauma can be mental, physical, emotional and spiritual. It’s real and it’s widespread in the American church … the “Done” ranks are growing with believers exiting abusive/authoritarian churches and packing PTCD with them (Post Traumatic Church Disorder).
FWIW, we’ve moved on while keeping some of our friends. The good ones, worth keeping. Like deboning a chicken, I guess.
I’m almost positive that most of Andy’s direct quotes are stolen from other sources, which isn’t really surprising because I knew few people at SEBTS who didn’t just blabber quotes all day, but it shows how little these guys actually think about their own beliefs. I mean the whole “seperated, saturated, and situated” was definitely from somebody’s 3-point sermon. And I’m pretty sure he’s just flat-out lying about how much time he spends studying the Bible. I bet he studies celebrity pastors’ ghostwritten books, but not the Bible.
However, some the COVID misinformation and arguments for it he said sounded to me just like the things John Macarthur was saying during that time. I wish I could remember now specifically, but it’s been awhile now since all that went down. But that may very well be his “biblical source”.
“God doesn’t give us anything to join – except Him.” – Bob Goff
Meet together? Yes.
The church org today is nowhere in the NT.
“Let’s consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.” Hebrews 10.24-25, WEB.
“I’ve had it with the ‘prophets’ who get all their sermons secondhand from each other. Yes, I’ve had it with them. They make up stuff and then pretend it’s a real sermon.” (Jeremiah 23:30, The Message)
If you walk like a duck, you’ll talk like a duck.
Perhaps I’ll live long enough to see the American church reconsider the NT church model … they turned the world upside down for Jesus! The 21st century version is exhausting- built on the flesh, not refreshing in the presence of the Lord.
“The elder wasn’t sure how to proceed from there. He said that he was still a fairly new believer and brand new to the elder board and wasn’t sure what else he could do. (I wondered at the wisdom of placing a fairly new believer on an elder board in the first place.)”
Among the qualifications for elders: “He must not be newly converted” (1 Timothy 3:1-7)
Therefore, he was unqualified for the elder board. Authoritarian pastors like to tap folks like this for his elder team … he can control them. I see it all the time at New Calvinist church plants. An inexperienced lead pastor fresh out of seminary in his 20-30s handpicks “elders” of same age … they make good yes-men, reluctant to hold the pastor accountable for anything.
“Instead, it allowed leaders to set themselves up as authority figures who could not be questioned in the slightest while projecting a false sense of accountability to the flock.” – Great way of putting it. This is what I eventually realized about my former church.
“But the elder reported that Andy dismissed his concerns as “not a Gospel issue,”” – I had concerns dismissed with the EXACT SAME WORDS in my former church. It was only afterwards I realized I had never framed my concerns as a “gospel issue”, and this was just blatant manipulation.
This is one of my biggest mistakes: I left the cult physically but I didn’t leave mentally. After leaving an especially abusive group, I cult-hopped for about 8 years. Recently, I’ve found Gillie Jenkinson’s work very insightful. You can find resources at http://www.hopevalleycounseling.com
To Linn, the idea of maintaining contact with abusive manipulators and their followers in order to maybe, one day, help them, is, IMO, not helpful. Leave, educate yourself about authoritarian control and cults, heal, and get to a place of “healed enough.” I have found most contact with former cult members to simply reopen old wounds and slow healing. However, we may find ourselves in positions where we simply can’t cut off contact – it’s a complex issue.
Muff Potter,
Rural Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri, Texas, Arkansas, etc. are another world altogether.
?
*www.hopevalleycounselling.com
Darn Brits with their two “l”s
A lot of pastors do not preach about what to wear, how to set up a family hierarchy, what decisions to make about their health, and how to cut their hair.
Crazy, I know.
I was raised Anglican and found that the liturgical churches were more tolerant on all fronts.
If I ever re-engage Christianity, I would probably attend a liturgical Protestant church.
You couldn’t pay me enough to go back to anything that describes itself as evangelical. That’s one door I will never enter.
At Sun River Church, the Senior Pastor retired and the #2 leader stepped up.
In “Why Nations Fail” by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson, their research indicates that we never know how the 2nd in Command will function as #1 until they actually hold that position.
The latent but seemingly stalwart #2 MAY turn out to be a tyrant when promoted to #1, and throughout ALL of history, this is totally unpredictable.
Muff Potter,
Within a 15 mile radius of me?
1 LDS, 1 Catholic, 1 Church of Christ, 2 Methodist, 2 Pentecostal: The rest are Baptist…. all but two of which are SBC affiliated.
Our horse-and-buggy Mennonites have separate community churches, but I’d never fit in there, even if they let me through the doors with my short, short hair and earrings……
Yes, there are the payroll taxes and health insurance to consider. There also used to be an additional associate pastor who left shortly before Andy was promoted senior pastor. It was unclear at the budget meeting if the church was going to replace his position or even replace the pastoral position Andy held before being promoted. If so, 500K would be more reasonable (for 5-6 full-time pastoral positions). Instead, they announced a further cut to the number of positions.
I get that, but I still believe that people are people wherever you (generic you) go.
Nor would I go back to say, Calvary Chapel or its equivalent.
I can no longer take the authoritarianism and the alpha-male chieftain mentality.
Oh they’d run me out in short order.
Imagine angry villagers with torches, rakes, and pitchforks, just like in them old Frankenstein movies from the late 30s and early 40s.
Muff Potter,
I wish it was that easy, Muff, I truly do. David did his pastoral internship at a Presbyterian church, and I was brought to faith by an Anglican and a Lutheran, so we are not at all opposed to liturgical churches.
One Lutheran church I visited after Sun River was lovely. So friendly and welcoming, and the pastor (a lady) remembered my name when I went up for communion. Then in 2022, two bishops from that denomination in our region resigned amidst accusations of bullying and racism.
The next Lutheran church, a different denomination, I wandered into the main sanctuary and was completely ignored by the people there. It was tiny, so any visitors would have stuck out like a sore thumb. When it looked like there were no preparations for a service occurring, I realized I was probably in the wrong building. Found the right place. The pastor, who looked young and earnest, chatted for a minute and asked me to look in the bulletin for their description of communion. It was completely closed to anyone who wasn’t a member of that particular church. You know my experience with memberships. And I just… couldn’t. So I quietly got up and left when they started serving communion.
Where are we going to go? This blog focuses on neo-Calvinism, but there’s possibility for abuse EVERYwhere. Mike Cosper, of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill fame, wrote, “Spiritual abuse, narcissism, bullying, and domineering can manifest in almost any church, regardless of polity, denomination, theological perspective, or culture.” (https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2022/april/cosper-dont-make-worse-church-leadership-abuse.html)
Willow Creek Church – egalitarian. Mars Hill Church – complementarian. And elder-led. ACNA that Julie Roys has been reporting on – hierarchical denominational oversight. Sun River Church – congregational. My understanding from someone who used to attend there is that even Capitol Hill Baptist Church of Mark Dever / 9marks fame is (on paper at least) congregational. And that’s not even venturing into Pentecostal or charismatic territory, because then we’d have to bring up Bethel Church of Redding. Or the sex abuse scandals of the Catholic Church.
Makes me think of Psalms 13 and 14. Psalm 13, David cries out, “How long, O Lord? Will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me?” (v.1) Juxtaposed right next to Psalm 14: “The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.” (v.2-3) Sobering.
We haven’t given up hope. But it sure isn’t easy.
Particularly if the member is family.
Not to be a contrarian, and I realize we could easily be a statistical anomaly, and I don’t know that I’d call Sun River a full-blown cult, but our extended family (who we of course kept in contact with) has left Sun River. As has a friend’s family that we kept in contact with. Conversations were definitely awkward at times, but it was such a relief when they saw for themselves what was happening and made the break.
ishy,
That’s a really interesting observation, ishy. I didn’t put it in the post, because I don’t have enough first-hand evidence, but Andy has been known to pass off other people’s words as his own. One instance I know of could have been an honest slip-up. The second seemed more blatant.
I wondered if MacArthur was his trusted COVID source, as well.
Hi Sarah, I was confused by the relative weights in your accounts, as to your logical priorities.
I have caught up with as many of the overnight comments as I could at the time of submitting this.
The hot button decoy headline issues that this minister was misusing will continually be replaced by other convenient ones. Would be have “questioned your character” had you asked him to “engage with the evidence” of his organisational wrongfooting, financial malfeasance, bad marriage doctrines, covenant contracts, war of attrition by filibustering, his not teaching christians prayer, and threatening your family members? These are the things that the Bible (real version) lambasts.
A paradigm is a suggested criterion for criteria: what delimits or focuses the field of attention. Men of this kind specifically entrench themselves – showing their colours – in order to discredit churches and teach christians (especially boys) not to pray.
You adopted his agenda when he pressed your buttons. He offered you the red flag of his choice, not the weightier ones you already knew about. He induced in you an equal and opposite reaction as he intended. He wasted your energy and time, and inflicted emotional damage on your family via his deliberate strategy. He does have another leg to stand on because he considers the weightier issues haven’t been “enough” challenged.
If you hold to prudence and consideration you should do what YOU want, why YOU want (regardless of any sources who get quoted). This will then be subsidiarity, respect, soul competency, priesthood of the believer, good conscience, agency, lateral thinking, integrity on YOUR part.
Have the congregation learned better about prayer and child protection from all this? Teach them outside the organisational context. And all this will happen again, soon, almost everywhere you look. A church officer who was suspended from one I left after I left it (where those who stayed on were equally at fault) has taken the effort to be in touch with me, which does my heart good. I am now intriguing my latest “Reformed specimens”.
Sarah (aka Wild Honey),
Deliberate mis-plagiarism is a skilled decoy tactic (which of the trails of crumbs people pick up on or don’t). God sees under the surface so as we become like Him we grow X ray eyes.
Beyond saying “ain’t it awful” lies picturing that we have been to one of those seminaries ourselves. The decoy from the decoy is de rigueur. Look through those leaders.
(Cosper)
He’s wrong about regardless. More like theirs are all universally wrong (within an official parameter), if they are doing wrong. Claimed theology and the functional theology that has actually been learned are different things.
From videos, Rev Dever is studiedly lazy and faux gormless (what I see is not patience or tact). I’ve met and known several similar.
You could spearhead a fresh concept in which “communion” is objectively neither an ordinance nor a sacrament. The test will be in whether people want you around them, not in superficial practices over which we can afford to be “multi-speed”.
“In a country and a church community that was experiencing high levels of tension and division, the senior pastor picked an extreme faction of a specific side and used politically charged, fear-mongering language from the pulpit to get the rest of the church over to his side.”
I’m confused by this, because I often read that pastors are preaching “The Bible” or “The Gospel”. The descriptions in the guest post sound like it’s just some guy offering his personal opinions and calling it “preaching.”
I find it helpful to read the four Gospels, over and over again, each one at least twice a year. If all church members did this, they might be more likely to recognize situations where what a pastor is saying isn’t anything like the Gospel that’s in the Bible.
Eisegesis is at an all-time high in the American church, where church leaders are reading their own ideas and interpretation into Bible text. If you torture Scripture long enough, it will say whatever you want it to.
Your recommendation to read the Gospels and filter everything coming out of a pastor’s mouth through the words written in red is wisdom. The epistles can be easily twisted to support the teachings and traditions of mere men, but come into perspective when viewed through a Gospel grid. “What did Jesus say?” is a safer road to take than “What did Pastor say?”
He should have spent his life spewing out his opinions, half-truth, and mistruth from an academic tower, rather than a pulpit.
Finding a real-deal church in America, where both both pulpit and pew love Jesus more than themselves and their theology is like looking for a needle in a haystack, a rare & endangered species, a treasure buried in a field. IMO, it’s going to take a new generation of genuine spiritual leaders and a faithful praying pew, but I don’t seem much movement in that direction. I guess things aren’t desperate enough … yet.
Most New Calvinist pastors are pulpit parrots. They jump out of bed each morning and turn on Twitter for the latest Piper Points, Dever Drivel, MacArthur Malarkey, etc. They rely on group think and canned sermons to sustain the NeoCal movement. Listen closely, some of them even inflect their words to sound just like their icons!
Agreed. That’s also one advantage of attending a church with a lectionary: the Bible is read aloud at every service. In some traditions, the whole Bible is read over the course of three years, in lessons from both Testaments and Psalms.
In my humble view, the most helpful sermons deeply reflect the lectionary passages. They invite worshipers to think about their own lives and determine how they can better live out love, reconciliation, mercy, and justice—sacred principles found all over the Bible.
What Max said, above.
And not only eisegesis (the reading of meaning into scripture) rather than exegesis (getting the good stuff out of scripture), some of them are making noise that all sermons should be expository (expositional) sermons. In fact, that is the first “mark” in the list of 9 Marks. But, when you come down to it, a true expository sermon is rare. Most sermons (and we should admit this, even celebrate it) are topical. Most sermons, though following the scripture of the day, wander by design into the preacher’s current topic of the day. And he will use the scripture to back up his topic. That is not necessarily a bad thing, unless one is calling it expository.
Indeed! That was exactly what Jesus had in mind when he referred to OT Scripture in His “sermons.” Today’s pastors would do well to model His example, not to use Scripture as a hammer to prompt the pew to live better but to cause them to reflect on Bible passages and change because the Spirit leads them to.
Slightly off-topic, but here I’m giving an enthusiastic “amen” to the reference above to Susan Howatch’s novel Glittering Images. That is the first in a series of six novels by Howatch about several clergy families in the Anglican Church, 1930s through 1960s. Each shows the challenges from a different theology or tradition within Anglicanism, and the abrasive politics and personalities between the various clergymen and their families. I have read them all three or four times, and the fourth novel (Scandalous Risks) about six times because possibly I’m in love with Venetia Flaxton, the tragic protagonist.
Well said. The rest of the New Testament, and the Old Testament, too, are important and edifying, but the Gospels are the key texts of Christianity. All Christians should be very, very familiar with them. I think personal reading is the best, but audio recording is good, too. Having another person (“pastor”) tell you what he thinks “the Gospel” is and how you should respond is inferior.
This is what usually happens in my church. We listen to the Lectionary, including the Gospel, and then the priest or deacon tells us some things he knows or has thought about it. (My all-time favorite from our pastor: “I was just reading this book,” he waved Moby-Dick, which he was literally just reading as the deacon read the Gospel in Spanish, “and …”. The point, when he got around to it, was that obsession is dangerous.)
The problem I see in others’ stories is that a pulpiteer like Pastor Andy believes that every word he says is straight from God, even if it’s verifiably erroneous.
I agree. Congregants need to be thoughtful, though, and recognize that it’s okay for them to disagree with the pastor’s personal ideas. “I don’t think [this Bible passage] necessarily leads to [this personal application].”
And even rarer in the Bible: not one example anywhere in scripture. Jesus apparently missed this important mark of a healthy church.
In my experience, I think the liturgy reinforces agreement on doctrine. The clergy and the congregation are more in tune with each other.
This does not prevent abuse as we’ve seen with child abuse in the Roman Catholic Church. Definitely “the mother church” can become synonymous or supercede god but in my experience, I did not find derision of other beliefs or denominations and only ever heard the word “hate” in an evangelical sermon.
It was the evangelical Christian worldview that dechristianized me.
This is my experience, others milage may vary.
Infallible Pronouncements Ex Cathedra from the Chair of Calvin by the Successors of Calvin by Apostolic Succession.
500 years ago, wasn’t there something called “The Reformation” BECAUSE of this sort of Priestcraft?
YES! The American church has found itself in the position of needing to reform itself from the new reformers!
There’s no such thing.
You rightly left the SBC. Other churches do not share the SBC’s history, beliefs, or culture. The SBC is not “the American church.”
Churches differ nationwide and worldwide. If you wish, try walking into a Greek Orthodox service some time, or a Quaker meeting. I believe variety represents strength in Christianity. But if we think everything is just as bad as _________, we will never see this.
I see this snippet of Scripture as hyperbole, not as absolute literal truth.
There are truly good people all over this planet, and they do genuinely good things.
I never got dechristianized.
I hold to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed as non-negotiable parameters up front.
The rest of the stuff?
I pick and choose as I see fit.
For example, I no longer accept evangelical teaching on human sexuality.
True. From now on, I’ll refer to the institutional church in America, rather than the “American church”. While individual churches are OK (Praise God for them) … much of the organized, institutional church (regardless of denomination) has drifted off-course, as evidenced by comments on TWW and elsewhere in the Christian blogosphere.
Friend,
In your opinion, why aren’t we experiencing a genuine revival among God’s people and a spiritual awakening in America?
Michael in UK,
Michael, what really burns me about Rev Dever…….. he was born and raised less than 45 miles from where I live…….. in my “stomping grounds”. He and his family lived near a town that I have frequented since I was 9 years old.
As far as I know, I never crossed paths with him. I’m very happy that he packed up and left!
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Jesus didn’t frequent churches. And his most famous sermon: “Sermon on the Mount”.
How often do we hear that from evangelical pulpits any more, and who needs an expository preacher/pastor to understand it?
Too much anger and scandal. Established members walk away, and new members are not attracted to what they have heard. Nobody likes to be threatened with Hell. The churches I attended in childhood were there as places of worship, not places out to punish or radicalize (although unfortunately such churches did exist, of course).
I don’t think that non-churchgoers and non-Christians are intent on sinning, or desperate. I also don’t believe that God’s people in America are the same as every American. The verses in Hebrew Scripture pertain to the people of Israel, not even to the other groups around them. Still, a lot of preachers believe that God is out to punish all 332 million Americans if we don’t repent.
The variety I mentioned elsewhere also implies fragmentation. A healthy church has no influence over a church where members are regularly assaulted during “exorcism.”
Just my 2 cents’ worth, and thank you for asking. What do you think? 🙂
Friend,
I’d say that was about 5-cents worth! 🙂
I would agree with all that you said, adding that widespread prayerlessness (or not enough focused prayer) among God’s people is contributing to the problem. 2 Chronicles 7:14 really is the pathway to revival and spiritual awakening: humility, prayer, repentance, seeking God’s face … by Christians en masse. Will we see it in my lifetime? Well, my lifetime is not as long as it used to be, so I don’t know. In the meantime, I’ll focus on personal revival.
Thanks for your response, Friend!
… but He went looking for folks who were thrown out of church for choosing Him over teachings and traditions of men.
Muff Potter,
Agreed. Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply a literal interpretation. I just find the placement of the two psalms next to each other interesting. They both look at the problem of evil, but from two different perspectives.
Max,
Yes and throw in Daniel ch 9 v 3-21. And strings of Our Fathers and Glory Be’s.
Max,
On this small but infinite topic, there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between my 5 cents’ worth and your 2 cents’ worth. 🙂
How many sermons do we need anyway?
Are sermons the centerpiece, the motivation, or the takeaway of church? Are sermons the key to the straight and narrow?
Does the NT actually document and give us all the sermons we can read for ourselves? No middleman, with his invoice to pay for his “gospel”?
The spiritual gift of teaching is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Romans 12:6–8; 1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:1–12). I believe Francis Schaeffer had that gift, with no paywall, in Switzerland. But IVCF published his books, so there’s that aspect of capitalism.
Love God (heart, soul, mind, and strength). Love neighbor as self.
“Love does.”
“Jesus Creed.”
Some businesses brand the simplicity of the Gospel for capitalism with endless books, conferences, etc., which is actually anti-Gospel or a scam. Jesus is not for sale – neither in the NT nor now.
If “Love does” is branded by Bob Goff, then “Love in action” sets the Gospel free.
If “The Jesus Creed” is branded by Scot McKnight, then “The Jesus Vow” or “The Jesus Life” or etc., sets the Gospel free. No paywall.
The last good book I read regarding the church was Giancarlo Granda’s “Off The Deep End: Jerry and Becki Falwell and the Collapse of an Evangelical Dynasty”. (Free, from the library, audible, checked out online last week.) Not a sermon but informative. It clarified the story that was spun in the Media and spun by Falwells et al. For one thing, I thought the poolboy was gay but engaged with cougar Becki and her guy LU’s Jerry Jr. as a threesome, for business. Not really. Giancarlo would cut off the Falwells, then date, and then become engaged to his girlfriend appropriately, but it never worked out because Becki interfered and Jerry Jr. said his wife should have her needs met, while Jr. watched (so his needs were met,too). Very strange. The “casual” engagements* with the wealthy Christian couple and their strange needs really screwed up the young man’s life, he admits. It was an unhealthy decision on his part to get involved with this couple and their fast, fun, supposedly faith-filled, but freaky lives.
(*We’re not talking Purity Crowd but rather taking intimacy seriously with no regrets, for healthy relationships.)
In 2022, two excellent books we read were: Kristin Kobes du Mez’s “Jesus and John Wayne” and Beth Allison Barr’s “The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth”. These are also not sermons but we read these together as friends, learning a great deal about church. And we are the church.
IMHO, church is sharing about Jesus (evangelism), learning together to be disciples of Jesus (discipleship), and using our gifts together as followers of Jesus (fellowship). No paywall necessary for any of these.
Ava Aaronson,
“Blessed are the poor in spirit……….those who mourn……..the meek ………. those who hunger and thirst for righteousness…… the merciful……………”
We have a whole Titanic boat load of pastor/preacher boys and religious leaders who have no intention of ever being “blessed”, in any way, shape, or form.
He may have had a class or two from Art Azurdia.
This was a common trait among the elders of the 9Marx church I was a member of in Dubai. Elder ruled? Nah. There were no nominations from the membership for the position of elder. The pastor chose who he wanted to be an elder after carefully vetting them to make sure they were yes-men. Then he would announce who the selections were and they would overwhelming be voted in at the next members meeting.
Michael, when we see such repentance & prayer in the church again, there will be hope for it and nations.
Earlier in life, I thought that Christianity needed constant activity or I would somehow lose my faith. More recently I have decreased my operations tempo, yet I am still a Christian. If I need to make an ethical decision, I already know the basic questions, and feel equipped to ponder the nuances through prayer.
Life is hard, but faith can run deep after a while. It can sustain.
I certainly don’t need somebody goading and critiquing me, or warning me against becoming a Lone Ranger Christian.
Not for the first time, Ken, we are of one mind! The closest Jesus came to expounding on a text was “this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing”.
Been there, done that. After being exhausted, rather than refreshed in the presence of the Lord, I woke up one day and realized that “constant activity” is not what the Christian experience is about. It was a liberating moment which launched a new chapter in my walk with Jesus, and I haven’t looked back.
He really blew it on that sermon by not drawing it out for an hour or so. He should have set a better example…
On a related note, have you heard of or watched “The Chosen” series? People seem either love it or hate it. I thought the way they did that reading from Isaiah was very good. Here is that scene: https://youtu.be/ZrWrqqdspNQ
Muff Potter,
I agree, accept not at an evangelical church. And there isn’t much else in those parts.
I had that experience at a Lutheran church as well. And it was Easter! No communion.
Bridget,
No communion for anyone. They didn’t bother. Probably because of visitors they didn’t want to vet. But they shouldn’t vet them anyway. It’s between the receiver of communion and God.
It’s interesting to sit in the pew, attentive to what’s happening from the stage, the raised platform, the pulpit, the big screen – depending on the venue – … sit there in the pew with one’s Bible open to appropriate Scripture, and try to make sense of what’s happening in front of you, and then thinking “What are we doing here, anyway?” and “How did we get here?”
Many Christians don’t believe in Evolution but actually there has been a lot of Evolution of Church since the NT days. The church experience has greatly evolved. Understandably, this is the post-modern age with all the bells and whistles, yet, are the values the same? Are we on the mark with Jesus when we gather together in His name? Is church an event to market for numbers, thus pay pastor’s salary? Or, is church evangelism, discipleship, fellowship, with/without a paywall?
George Müller got fed up with the pew rents with church empowerment of his day, and pastors’ salaries. He then went buck naked or commando – financially, that is – without a preacher’s salary for his ministry work. And thrived, supporting others, like orphans, and missionary Hudson Taylor.
The Evangelical Free Church also cut loose from pew rents empowerment, thus the name.
In the OT, periodically, the Hebrew people went back to the Law as written in Moses’ time, to refresh their spiritual journey with truth from God as to how they should live and experience God’s blessing. See Nehemiah 8, when Ezra read to the people, and lots of Wow! moments followed.
The most ridiculously fenced Communion I ever saw was at a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) church. The only people allowed to receive were the members of that congregation. Even if a visitor came from another WELS congregation, they had to fill out an index card to be vetted by ushers.
Needless to say, I remained in my pew with other sons and daughters of Stan.
No kidding.
And people voluntarily sign up to be hounded, while they pay the hounder to hound them.
God help us all, to “stand fast therefore in the liberty, wherefore Christ has set us free, and do not be entangled again in a yoke of bondage.” Praise God. Gal. 5.
These two things are not the same.
Worship should never be a marketing event.
Pew rents are no longer a thing in any American church I know of. They went away over 100 years ago.
I could walk into any church in my town and not find a “paywall.” Many churches raise money through voluntary donations. The full-time pastors I know work extremely hard for modest salaries.
Some churches do coerce members to tithe in order to enrich pastors. This is obviously bad. Nobody has to go to those churches, though.
I don’t think you and I are really that far apart on this topic… we have just had very different experiences.
Amen
Very.
Every church we know of in our area has paywalls. It’s a thing. Good luck becoming involved in a church, even in a Bible study, in our area without consistent financial investment. Don’t have the money to invest? Then you haven’t earned the privilege of participation, nor have you earned the pleasure of God. What are you doing to prohibit God’s blessing? Why are you cursed? – the question. Very real.
In every SBC church I’ve ever set foot in, visitors of any kind are not allowed to participate in what we call “the Lord’s supper” (communion)……… not even if a visitor is a member of another SBC church 8 miles up the road and is pastor’s father-in-law or a blood relative of 2 deacons.
How wonderful for you and your community.
Would that all would be so blessed.
What we are doing here is seeking church as entertainment. We got here because that is in our heart. It’s an unholy alliance between pulpit and pew, the former giving the latter what they desire in a 21st century church experience.
It has become very difficult to find a “three marks church.” Micah tells us what God requires of a church: to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly. Thus the three marks are righteousness,empathy, and humility. In other words, a church that resembles Jesus. I have been forced out of churches with right doctrine that were woefully short on empathy and humble leadership.
It has become difficult to find a “three marks church.” Micah tells us what God requires of a church: do right, love mercy, walk humbly. It is the rare church that displays truth, empathy, and humility. So the sheep wander.
MOD: I removed your middle initial from your name as it made you look new and thus your comment get held. If you want to keep using the middle initial we’ll let them through. GBTC
Max,
You picked up on my Daniel reference; now what do you think for young children and for older people not fortunate to have been briefed on Daniel (other than as a pointless * RZIM-style gotcha regarding dating)?
{ * for reasons I could explain if wanted }
Can christians be trusted to teach their young children to string together Our Fathers and Glory Be’s (without counting them)?
Do church authorities trust small boys (as well as girls) to supplicate for them and the world?
Are some church authorities blaspheming the Holy Spirit gifts in children?
And people wonder why the church attendance keeps going down. “Get over here so we can yell at you!”
We live outside a big city, and it happens that the megachurches are not nearby. Maybe that’s why the 20th-century model is still hanging on.
Consider yourself blessed! The 21st-century church model has drifted farther from the design for the Kingdom of Heaven on earth in the here and now.
That’s the spirit! Reduce the feeding of the 5000 to the feeding of the 5.
Yes, I know, different meal.
Ted,
TED,
I once asked on SBCvoices how ‘the gospel’ was defined. You would not believe how much trouble that raised! I was told ‘You should know this’ and ‘You’re being ingenious’. But a few people attempted to give some kind of meaning to the term, yes, which was kind. But there was no mention of the actual biblical four Holy Gospels of Our Lord included. When I pursued my questioning about this, I was told ‘the gospel’ was different from the books of Sts. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. (?)
My own thought was that the term was thrown around to mean what the person in control said it meant . . . there being no written ‘catechism’ to refer to. I never did find out if there was some core teaching on the term that was ‘shared’ among Southern Baptists, no. But some people tried to help me, and some people were kind.
As for the others, I just thought my question had seemed ‘inappropriate’. I didn’t intend it in that way, but I must have asked about something ‘sensitive’. It was an experience I haven’t forgotten, and I blame myself for the way I had asked the question that upset these people.
This is factually incorrect. The Lord himself expounded Scripture “beginning at Moses” to the disciples on the road to Emmaus, Philip (at the Lord’s command) explained Scripture to the Ethiopian eunuch, not to mention the Lord drawing the disciples’ attention to what the prophets had written regarding his impending death and resurrection. And it’s more than likely part of the Great Commission (“teach all nations”, “teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you”).You also get Ezra doing similar in the OT, as recorded in Nehemiah.
Chrysostom did so as well.
i.e. Reserved ONLY for God’s REAL Chosen (MEEEEEEE, NOT THEE!)
Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-Un would be proud.
“GOD’S JUDGMENT ON AMERICA SITS READY AND WAITING IN THE NUCLEAR MISSILE SILOS OF THE SOVIET UNION!”
The RIGHTeous are never happy unless there are Unrighteous getting PUNISHED! PUNISHED! PUNISHED! PUNISHED! PUNISHED!
(And if God doesn’t PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH! immediately, they step in to Do God’s Work.)
You mean Jesus didn’t camp out on Paul?
We have a mega-biggie (church) in my area, and the traffic snarl-up is mega-biggie on any given Sunday.
Repent of what?
Depends on the location of the tornado, hurricane, flood, earthquake, or wildfire.
None of the examples in the Bible fit the model for expository preaching as defined by groups like TGC and 9Marks. Here is an SBC description:
https://www.lifeway.com/en/articles/four-kinds-of-expositional-preaching
You are not a number, you are a free man!
I think I realized how bat-beans crazy the bible really is. Look at the book of Hosea. God tells him to call his kid “unloved”, then wonders why they don’t follow his god.
Evangelicalism takes a dark road on the literal front. But we can eat shrimp and pork.
Hate and scampi don’t mix.
Couldn’t get past it. Kind of spoiled the whole experience. Like mold in a basement, you can cover it up but the smell lingers.
Doesn’t matter, you know what you did….repent!
Blinkers, church is like my crazy mom. You’re always wrong and no apology is good enough.
Oh wait, in church I pay 10% and get out of jail…. nope still wrong…
And the allergies/negative health repercussions!
We should ask that question more often. During the takeover at First Baptist there was one man who kept using the term “the gospel” but in the context of everything else he was talking about, Inigo Montoya’s comment kept coming to mind: “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
Oh, I believe it! That’s where the New Calvinists hang out. Their “gospel” = their theology. It has little to do with THE Gospel for ALL people that the rest of Christendom focuses on in evangelism and missions.
Those people need to be upset … they need to be upset to the core of their soul, until they reach out to Jesus and get their spiritual heads screwed on straight about the Gospel.
… How a pastor shapes a church to his style, after they initially hired him to work for them.
Very strange, indeed.
A church hires and pays a pastor. But then the pastor says he actually works for God, not them. After that, anything goes, even as the pastor and family are on the payroll, because, “God”. “Thus, the Lord saith …” to this “anointed” pastor.
Historians can clarify here, but in the OT, the prophets worked the land, IOW, were working people themselves, correct? And listeners had to discern the “Thus saith the Lord, …” pronouncements, without the codependence of paying their prophets for news from God, right? No prophets’ fingers were in the till, right?
Then there was Elijah, whom God Himself cared for in the Wilderness.
John the Baptist famously lived off the land in the Wilderness.
Make no mistake about it. This is not congregational governance, it is PASTOR-RULE polity at its worst. In a pastor-centric congregation, whatever pastor wants, pastor gets. Pastor is always right, so how could you vote against him? Very characteristic of New Calvinist leadership, especially in new churches and church plants.
After a while, every organization takes on the personality of its leadership. Church, beware of who you hire as pastor! Pray your guts out and get a clear word from God while searching for a new pastor … his personality is heading your way.
My immediate response upon reading that section. What bold arrogance! I have no problem calling this jerk a malignant narcissist. The label fits.
Friend,
But it never mattered if you sat out. “Communion ceremonies” are not an “ordinance”. Jesus intended “communion ceremonies” to fizzle out around 130 AD. New fangled reformed, designer outlet and evangelical teachings have made a powerful class be the sole worthwhile individuals, whereas prior to that you and I were the leaders because we prayed. By becoming the change we want to see, and ignoring churches’ official agendas, and praying continually like Holy Scripture says, we’ll be the only leaders that will matter.
Michael in UK,
I don’t believe that Communion is necessary for salvation or even worship. Some churches have it daily, some weekly, some never.
What bothers me is the cultlike practice of defining and excluding. Communion is called a mystery in many traditions that practice it. Narrow teaching, and vetting via index card, go against that. Turning worshipers into excluded spectators during a major part of the worship service is just unkind.
People do not have to receive Communion—but the worshiper should choose. Elders and ushers should not be enforcing this.
p.s. I am not sure why you think Jesus intended Communion to end in 130 CE.
Friend,
I’ve been met with actual ructions in some evangelical churches when I didn’t receive. Also I sense there is ambiguity, where there is “membership”, about whether I would be allowed to sit out from this “ordinance” in the unlikely event I got admitted to that (you don’t get told what all the membership rules are until after you become a member). Meantime reputedly quite a lot of protestant churches had allowed intercommunion.
In the RCC at one time “obligation” was completely voluntary and we many who often or always sat out gave tactful cover to politicians and any visitors too shy to infiltrate the queue! I.e we “normalised” sitting out (good kind of normalisation). Personally I don’t care if there are excluding rules, it’s the compulsory including ones that bother me; but that’s just me.
I thought Jesus was Really Present whether I received or not, I thought it was pretty neat already. A bit like whether you were on the stage with Cliff Richard or sat six rows back.
I think there is generally a superstitous form of sentimentality about “communion” / Lord’s Table. In the RCC (which is very unstable) communion or eucharist has been made into an entirely organisational expression.
AD 130 was from when Jews and Jewish christians no longer held any ceremonies jointly (they obviously did certain things apart as well). I think that the phrase “forsaking meeting together” refers to the period before that.
Jesus points out that “remembering My Body and Blood” is about honouring Holy Spirit in the spiritual orphans and widows. “Some have fallen asleep” means that because they didn’t, they became dead hands, dead weight, dead wood, dead in the water, dead on their feet, like their god, Bismarck’s god whom Nietzsche strongly suggested we turn our backs on.
During the Reagan Years, God’s method of choice was Global Thermonuclear War.
“Whatever YOU do (usually Pelvic) that *I* don’t!”