“We Made Mistakes.” The SBC Still Hasn’t Learned That Sex Abuse and Coverup Is a Crime. Maybe the DOJ Will Educate Them.

Zeta Ophiuchi is a star 20 times more massive than the Sun. NASA

“A man that flies from his fear may find that he has only taken a shortcut to meet it.” JRR Tolkien


I just returned from a trip to view all of the main beaches on the west coast of Florida. This concludes our decades of search for the most beautiful beach in the US. We have traveled the entire east and west coasts of the country. Dee even dunked in, over her head, on a beach in the Arctic at Prudhoe Bay. We think that the white sugar sands, turquoise water, and the morning appearance of dolphins in the Panhandle of Florida are the Parsons’ pick for “the best.” This includes Destin and 30A. Anyone who follows Dr. Beach and other such reviews will not be surprised by this pick. By now, I have caused a stir, and I look forward to hearing your votes for “the best.”


While in Florida, Jules Woodson sent me a text and said the DOJ would investigate the SBC. Given the other week’s news, it seemed to me that the DOJ was quite busy! Bill will tell you that I burst out laughing and said, “If you had told me this when I started blogging in 2009, I would have thought you were nuts.” I began to think about all the victims of sexual abuse in Baptist churches and the men who claimed to have weeded out all the bad theology in the 90s. Then, around 2005, the “Young, Restless, and Reformed began their rise in the SBC. They reassured us that if everyone saw it the way Calvin and the present-day theodudes saw it, the SBC would be among the most righteous of denominations.

They got the TULIP right and overlooked an ugly and growing stain on the supposed “purity” of the SBC theology. “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.” NIV James 1:22.There was a sickness that had been spreading for years. I remember clueless Baptist women claiming that the reason the RCC had priests molesting kids was due to the fact they could not marry.” With noses firmly stuck in the ground, they overlooked something. Why would a priest molest a boy instead of having consensual relationships with an adult?

The answer was quite evident. These priests abused children because they were pedophiles. This meant that being married did nothing to prevent pedophilia. One of these women would discover that her husband was also a pedophile.

Another warped theology arose when abused people were told to be quiet because “They would hurt the church of Jesus Christ.” Few men in my former church appeared to care about the many abused boys. The SBC leaders re-abused the victims of sexual abuse, refusing to do anything about their abusers. Protecting their “reputation” was far more critical.

The vaunted Executive Committee/Credentials Committed re-abused my friend, Jules Woodson, by refusing to do anything to punish Steve Bradly and the Church of the Woodlands because, well, they wouldn’t say. Still, I bet it had something to do with a megachurch with tons of money.

Christa Brown was ignored for decades by the SBC. I called the church where her abuser continues to attend- First Baptist, Orlando. I was treated to the old “Don’t you think an abuser should be allowed in church.”

The SBC failed so many victims. The current leaders were well aware of the problems with Paige Patterson, but they continued to backslap until it was not advantageous. #Churchtoo made things much more difficult. How about the whispers throughout the decades of Paul Presller and his issues?

The Statement from the SBC leaders/entities link

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE – August 12, 2022

The SBC Executive Committee recently became aware that the Department of Justice has initiated an investigation into the Southern Baptist Convention, and that the investigation will include multiple SBC entities.

Individually and collectively each SBC entity is resolved to fully and completely cooperate with the investigation. While we continue to grieve and lament past mistakes related to sexual abuse, current leaders across the SBC have demonstrated a firm conviction to address those issues of the past and are implementing measures to ensure they are never repeated in the future. The fact that the SBC Executive Committee recently completed a fully transparent investigation is evidence of this commitment.

We recognize our reform efforts are not finished. In fact, those efforts are continuing this very moment as the recently announced Abuse Reform Implementation Task Force begins its work and as each entity has strengthened its efforts to protect against abuse. Our commitment to cooperate with the Department of Justice is born from our demonstrated commitment to transparently address the scourge of sexual abuse.

While so many things in the world are uncertain, we can be certain that we serve a mighty God. Nothing, including this investigation, takes Him by surprise. We take comfort in that and humbly ask you be in prayer in the days and weeks ahead. Specifically, we ask God to grant wisdom and discernment to each person dealing with the investigation.
Daniel L. Akin, President, SEBTS
Jason K. Allen, President, MBTS
Bart Barber, President, SBC
Paul Chitwood, President, IMB
James K. Dew, President, NOBTS
D. Hance Dilbeck Jr., President, Guidestone Kevin Ezell, President, NAMB
Adam W. Greenway, President, SWBTS
Jeff Iorg, President, Gateway Seminary
Brent Leatherwood, Acting President, ERLC Ben Mandrell, President Lifeway
Willie D. McLaurin, Interim President, SBC EC R. Albert Mohler Jr., President, SBTS
Sandra Wisdom-Martin, Exec. Director, WMU
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. James 1:5s

The DOJ probably has information that could possibly lead to an indictment.

This week I learned, due to another investigation (which TWW shall not discuss), that the DOJ does not begin an investigation unless they believe that there is likely to be an indictment by a grand jury. In other words, this is very serious.

It involves multiple SBC entities.

I guess it could include:

  • SBC President, etc.
  • SBC Executive Committee
  • Credentialing Committee
  • International Missions Board
  • North American Missions Board
  • LifeWay

They will “cooperate.”

What choice do they have? This is the DOJ, not your buddy who knows “somebody.” I am not impressed.

Past “mistakes?”

Here is the quote, “While we continue to grieve and lament past mistakes related to sexual abuse, “This is fascinating. The DOJ does not investigate mistakes. A mistake is bringing your KJV Bible to the hot new megachurch. Let’s get something straight. The DOJ is probably looking at the potential “CRIMES” committed. A lawyer most likely wrote this “Statement.”

They also had “issues,” but those are in the past.

They wrote, “current leaders across the SBC have demonstrated a firm conviction to address those issues of the past and are implementing measures to ensure they are never repeated in the future” The DOJ is not investigating ISSUES.

According to Merriam Webster, an issue is a concern or a problem. Notice how this nice-sounding, possibly lawyerly Statement appears to say that these problems, not crimes, are now in the past. But, make sure you understand that these are not crimes, merely “issues.”

The SATF proves we are in it to win it.

Look at that nice, $2 Million investigation by Guideposts. Surely this counts for something. Wait, what’s this I hear about the DOJ wanting to look at that report? That can’t count against the SBC, can it?”

It looks like there are going to be quite a few people involved.

But, they are still humble.

We take comfort in that and humbly ask you be in prayer in the days and weeks ahead. Specifically, we ask God to grant wisdom and discernment to each person dealing with the investigation.

NPR posted The DOJ is investigating Southern Baptists following the sexual abuse crisis

This adds a bit more information. Given the SBC statement, they expect more people to be subpoenaed.

Leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention said Friday that several of the denomination’s major entities are under investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice in the wake of its multiple problems related to clergy sex abuse.

The SBC’s Executive Committee has received a subpoena, but no individuals have been subpoenaed at this point, according to the committee’s lawyers.

“This is an ongoing investigation and we are not commenting on our discussions with DOJ,” they said.

The DOJ is not commenting yet.

There was no immediate comment from the Justice Department about the investigation.

I have received information that the DOJ will request information from Guideposts.

A Guidepost spokesperson declined to comment on news of the DOJ probe.

Christa Brown and Jules Woodson were quoted.

Hallelujah. It’s about time,” Brown said in a Friday post on Twitter. “This is what’s needed.”

(…Jules said) May justice roll down!!!”

Nothing to fear, huh?

The SBC should be afraid. This unprecedented move spells potential trouble.

Oklahoma pastor Mike Keahbone, who serves on the Executive Committee and is the vice chair of the new abuse task force, said on Twitter that the investigation “is not something to fear … If there is more work to do, we will do it.”

The DOJ investigation is linked to the Guidepost investigation.

I have read ten media news outlets, and all of them seem to link to the Guidepost investigation as the probable reason for the DOJ issuing the subpoenas. ABC News used the plural “subpoenas.” The Statement from the SBC big kahunas indicates that they expect to have multiple people talking to the DOJ, which would probably mean multiple subpoenas.

Al Mohler once said there would be dark days ahead for the SBC. He wrote the following in 2019. It was much worse than he could imagine.

The Wrath of God Poured Out—The Humiliation of the Southern Baptist Convention 

The last few weeks have been excruciating for the Southern Baptist Convention and for the larger evangelical movement. It is as if bombs are dropping and God alone knows how many will fall and where they will land.

America’s largest evangelical denomination has been in the headlines day after day. The SBC is in the midst of its own horrifying #MeToo moment.

…Then people said that Evangelicals had a similar crisis coming, it didn’t seem plausible — even to me. I have been president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for twenty-five years. I did not see this coming.

I was wrong. The judgment of God has come.

Judgment has now come to the house of the Southern Baptist Convention. The terrible swift sword of public humiliation has come with a vengeance. There can be no doubt that this story is not over.

…This is exactly what those who opposed the Conservative Resurgence warned would happen. They claimed that the effort to recover the denomination theologically was just a disguised move to capture the denomination for a new set of power-hungry leaders. I know that was not true. I must insist that this was not true. But, it sure looks like their prophecies had some merit after all.

…In Romans 1:18 we are told: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.”

This is just a foretaste of the wrath of God poured out. This moment requires the very best of us. The Southern Baptist Convention is on trial and our public credibility is at stake. May God have mercy on us all.

The SBC will now face the DOJ, which is not known for pleasant discussions. Sex abuse is a crime. The coverup of sex abuse is a crime. They are not mistakes or issues. I predict that the SBC will be humiliated and continue losing members, as they should.

 

Comments

“We Made Mistakes.” The SBC Still Hasn’t Learned That Sex Abuse and Coverup Is a Crime. Maybe the DOJ Will Educate Them. — 93 Comments


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    One . . .

    Of them might get it – maybe


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    I spent 44 years of my life as a Southern Baptist, this ended in 2018. This sexual abuse has been going on for decades. I have often wondered what the SBC would be like if all the “liberals” had not been removed or woman turned into second class citizens by the 2000 BF&M.

    I also wonder if the sexual abuse was as rampant under the “liberals.” I want to make it clear any and all sexual abuse is wrong under the Fundamentalist or the “Liberals.”


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    Are we supposed to do the standing ovation thing now? Or do we need to see actual crocodile tears first? It’s hard to keep up with the etiquette rules…


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    Some won’t get it though. There have to be some some extremely hard hearts and stubborn minds for them to have behaved like they have, so hard and stubborn that some will still defend their past actions – may they rot in prison.


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    “Al Mohler once said there would be dark days ahead for the SBC.”

    The same Al Mohler who had no problem with the darkness surrounding his bud C.J. Mahaney … until the Houston Chronicle shed light into dark corners of SBC life and the dudebro network of coverup and protection of abusers.


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    “While we continue to grieve and lament past mistakes related to sexual abuse, current leaders across the SBC have demonstrated a firm conviction to address those issues of the past and are implementing measures to ensure they are never repeated in the future.”

    That’s a relief, no?

    So how exactly are they going to implement measures on SBC churches — where so many of the issues reportedly have been — over which they exercise no governmental agenda control, per what they may have previously indicated when such issues surfaced before?


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    In all honestly, based on all the stories here at TWWW, and the general press, in addition to my personal experiences around 40 years ago, I really think the SBC could be nailed under RICO law(s). While sex abuse might not be “as bad” as murder, the law considers it VERY serious.. Covering it up, and moving people around that committ very serious crimes such as sex abuse, and especially on kids, qualifies as ORGANIZED CRIME in my book, which is what RICO is all about…..


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    I think we can all agree that the SBC is in deep doo-doo.


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    ***Using positions of authority to abuse women and children….
    ***Having knowledge of abuse, yet allowing abuse to be committed, repeatedly….
    ***Intentionally and deliberately protecting people who committed abuse…..
    …… so that those people an commit abuse again, and again.
    ***Ignoring and/or blaming the victims.
    ***Covering up abuse of many victims and coving for many abusers for decades.

    Issues and mistakes??? Betcha none of these guys believed there were any issues or mistakes until the public was made aware of what has been happening.
    Oh, well. At least the SBChas promised to do the “bare minimum” …….. well, at least until the 2023 convention.
    https://baptistnews.com/article/progress-on-sexual-abuse-in-the-sbc-not-so-fast/#.YvsIv4pOmhA


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    “They claimed that the effort to recover the denomination theologically was just a disguised move to capture the denomination for a new set of power-hungry leaders. I know that was not true. I must insist that this was not true.”

    It almost certainly was partly or mostly true. The truth will set you free, Al.


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    While they’re at it, I wish the DOJ would scrutinize all the SBC churches that accepted government handouts in the form of PPP “loans.”

    I will be watching to see if these same churches that took the taxpayer’s money start crying about government intrusion.

    I know that JD Greear’s church took $2,306,000. Mark Dever’s church, from the affluent Capitol Hill area, took $315,029. David Platt’s church accepted $1.85 million of the taxpayers money!

    And that is just for starters.


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    “We Made Mistakes.”

    No, No, No!
    Use the Proper Code Phrase: “Mistakes Were Made”.


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    But, they are still humble.

    With flunkies in livery blowing long trumpets before them to announce how HUMBLE they are.


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    Thx for this excellent post, Dee, and keeping us all up-to-date, with your TWW forum for discourse. We are grateful.

    I take issue with one phrase in the post: “Paul Pressler and his issues…”

    Paul Pressler and his crimes? Alleged?

    https://baptistnews.com/article/abuse-case-against-pressler-may-proceed-texas-supreme-court-rules/#.Yvs2KFHMLIU


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    The likes of Mohler always intended to ruin the churches and your country and mine. They gave the world gender theology / ideology complete with versions of conversion therapy ensuring heaven would get shut up like brass by their successful dominionism. The god of Rev Akin (whom Dr Ashford had a brush with) is too small, but any old god would have foreseen all this.


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    The DOJ had better get this done before the November elections, else the CHRISTIAN-dominated Congress will start Investigating and Impeaching and Destroying THEM for daring to PERSECUTE Innocent Christians.
    “PERSECUTION!!!!!!!”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Colorful. Vividly so.

    HUG, you always adeptly add color to the discussion. And we thank you.


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    Todd Wilhelm: I will be watching to see if these same churches that took the taxpayer’s money start crying about government intrusion.

    And LIverty U is leading the pack. They made one helluva lot of bank on those Fed grants, especialy the Veterans’ Student Loan/GI Bill Racket. JFJr must be closing in on Kenneth Copeland for size of Dragons’ Hoard.
    “PERSECUTION!!!!!!!”


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    Todd Wilhelm:
    While they’re at it, I wish the DOJ would scrutinize all the SBC churches that accepted government handouts in the form of PPP “loans.”

    I will be watching to see if these same churches that took the taxpayer’s money start crying about government intrusion.

    I know that JD Greear’s church took $2,306,000. Mark Dever’s church, from the affluent Capitol Hill area, took $315,029. David Platt’s church accepted $1.85 million of the taxpayers money!

    And that is just for starters.

    ONLY $1.85 miliion?
    Liberty U still has them beat.


  20. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I know that JD Greear’s church took $2,306,000. Mark Dever’s church, from the affluent Capitol Hill area, took $315,029. David Platt’s church accepted $1.85 million of the taxpayers money!


  21. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    The sad reality is that this discussion does not seem to be trickling down to the local church. Here in Nashville the news outlets are covering the story; local churches here are silent. I’ve reached out to other pastors (current and past) I worked in the past in multiple states to see what local churches are saying about all of this.

    “crickets chirping”

    I hope the DOJ can get the SBC’s attention legally in whatever form that might be. Yet until this issue becomes one in the local church where churches start to cut their giving to the Cooperative Program the SBC will continue in power.


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    I’m scratching my head as to what federal crime has been violated in connection with the sexual abuse scandals. State crimes, surely, but federal? Don’t get me wrong, it’s been a long time coming, but I find it unusual.

    But then, it might be a pretense for a fishing expedition for crimes that are federal in nature, most of them being of a financial nature. I have no doubt that there have been major instances of financial impropriety among the big players of the SBC, especially in agencies such as NAMB. Let’s hope something like that is uncovered as well.


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    MasterSanders: I’m scratching my head as to what federal crime has been violated in connection with the sexual abuse scandals.

    Would “pervert trafficking” be a federal offense … covering up, protecting, and enabling bad-boy preachers to cross state lines to new church positions be a federal crime? Passing Anthony Moore around would be but one example.


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    Todd Wilhelm: While they’re at it, I wish the DOJ would scrutinize all the SBC churches that accepted government handouts in the form of PPP “loans.”

    Yep, taking a government handout while protesting government recommendations to protect public health.


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    Luckyforward: Yet until this issue becomes one in the local church where churches start to cut their giving to the Cooperative Program the SBC will continue in power.

    It’s about time that millions of SBC members realize that the current CP ain’t their Gramma’s CP. The gospel that is being advanced around the world through their CP giving is not ‘the’ Gospel. The New Calvinists are not planting Gospel churches, they are planting reformed theology … while the SBC majority in its 47,000+ churches are non-Calvinist!

    Unfortunately, fleecing the flock is not a federal crime. It has been going on for centuries without much government intervention.


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    Ava Aaronson: I take issue with one phrase in the post: “Paul Pressler and his issues…”

    During the Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence, SBC elite knew Pressler had “issues” but turned their heads because he was too big to fail in their inerrancy battle against those wicked liberals/moderates … all the while putting up with errant Pressler, co-architect of the CR along with his errant bud Paige Patterson.


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    Perhaps in future there will be a new aphorism to express how bad something can be and still be acceptable: “good enough for Kingdom work.”

    But perhaps the Deity’s view of the matter is different: ‘that lamp isn’t generating much light. Cover it with basket!’


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    Max,

    I don’t know, you tell me. In all the discussions about this, I haven’t heard anyone offer a suggestion as to what federal was violated regarding sexual abuse and coverup.

    That being said, I hope the Feds find something. Given how much of a good ole boy network the SBC is, there’s bound to be examples of financial impropriety. I can at least hope they can find something there.


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    Samuel Conner,

    Or perhaps, ‘If the salt has lost its saltiness . . . . it is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out’


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    Ava Aaronson: Paul Pressler and his crimes? Alleged?

    Thank you for your timely link and reminder. I have read the story about Pressler before. But I find that I cannot keep all these people and their accusations/crimes/situations etc straight at any one time. I think I understand the reason for the secret list. The SBC had to keep their excuses and stories (and which churches had already had a bad experience with that person) straight. Otherwise, they might get caught and be embarrassed. Not ashamed, embarrassed that they got caught.

    After-all, what could possibly be more embarrassing than sending a pedophile back to church that he was already caught at because you forgot that church was already on his hit list because you have too many similar situations to keep track of? It is important to send each church a new to them pedophile, not one they already know about.


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    Regarding silence on the part of local SBC churches, this scene from Star Trek seemed to sum it up nicely.

    ~ ~ ~

    Star Trek, Deep Space Nine, Season 7, Episode 22, Tacking Into the Wind

    Worf – Now, tell me what you think.

    Ezri – Okay, but I’m not sure you’re going to like it.

    Worf – Tell me.

    Ezri – I think that the situation with Gowron is a symptom of a bigger problem. I think that the Klingon Empire is dying, and I think it deserves to die.

    Worf – You were right. I do not like it.

    Ezri – Don’t get me wrong. I’m very touched that you still consider me to be a member of the House of Martok, but I tend to look at the Empire with a little more skepticism than Curzon or Jadzi did. I see a society that is in deep denial about itself. We’re talking about a warrior culture that prides itself on maintaining centuries-old traditions of honor and integrity, but, in reality, it’s willing to accept corruption at the highest levels.

    Worf – You are overstating your case.

    Ezri – Am I? Who was the last leader of the High Council that you respected? Has there even been one? And how many times have you had to cover up the crimes of Klingon leaders because you were told that it was for the good of the Empire? I know this sounds harsh, but the truth is, you have been willing to accept a government that you know is corrupt. Gowron is just the latest example. Worf, you are the most honorable and decent man that I have ever met, and if you are willing to tolerate men like Gowron then what hope is there for the Empire?


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    With respect to Dee “obsession” of beaches, I think she is in danger that the Pied Piper’s Sand Dollar sermon was all about!!

    P.S. My favorite beach was a volcanic beach on Maui…colors were incredible


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    MasterSanders: what federal was violated regarding sexual abuse and coverup

    In most states (if not all), church leaders are mandated reporters, required by law to report reasonable suspicions of abuse. A mandated reporter is one who is required by law to report reasonable suspicions of abuse. A report must be made when there is reason to believe that a child has been abused, is being abused, or is in danger of being abused. Findings within SBC to date indicate that this was not done in some instances, as predator perverts were passed through SBC churches. Of course, States have jurisdiction here … but there may be some issues at a Federal level if perps move from state to state when mandated reporters fail their responsibility. I don’t know for sure … perhaps others reading this can make input in this regard.


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    FreshGrace: ‘If the salt has lost its saltiness . . . . it is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out’

    No one would accuse SBC these days of being salty. It’s sad to see a once-great evangelistic denomination in this mess.


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    Max,

    Murder is usually a “state law”, yet RICO was used on the mob…


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    MasterSanders:
    Max,

    I don’t know, you tell me. In all the discussions about this, I haven’t heard anyone offer a suggestion as to what federal was violated regarding sexual abuse and coverup.

    I know very little about federal law, but I’ll share my best guess. (The SBC Executive Committee has released a statement, saying that the investigation is about sexual abuse “allegations”.)

    Many of the abusers committed multiple offenses in multiple states……. While they were protected and their crimes (yes, crimes) were covered up by sometimes a high level person, or people within the SBC. These people who protected the criminals resided in multiple states. Some men abused, moved on to another state, and abused again — while someone in the SBC hierarchy had knowledge of the acts and even assisted in the relocation (Paige Patterson?)
    When Augie Boto was the legal representive with the EC, he kept a long, long list of accused perpetrators within the convention, yet no one breathed a word. Boto even testified at a trial on behalf of one man who was convicted of abusing his students.

    Perverse acts were committed at several SBC churches and entities in different states, and members of SBC committees and high level SBC people who were aware of the offenses, and yet kept the crimes hush-hush reside in several different states.
    I’d say that the number of offenses kept secret, the number of offenders who were protected, and the wild-spread involvement of SBC leaders across multiple state might warrant a federal investigation.


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    “They claimed that the effort to recover the denomination theologically was just a disguised move to capture the denomination for a new set of power-hungry leaders.” (Al Mohler)

    I groaned out loud when I read this … coming from a power-hungry leader with his band of New Calvinists who wrenched the SBC from millions of non-Calvinist members. The old SBC financed a huge stockpile of seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, 47,000+ churches, and other assets … now plundered by the new SBC.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I’d say that the number of offenses kept secret, the number of offenders who were protected, and the wild-spread involvement of SBC leaders across multiple states might warrant a federal investigation.

    My thinking exactly.


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    Jeffrey J Chalmers: I really think the SBC could be nailed under RICO law(s). While sex abuse might not be “as bad” as murder, the law considers it VERY serious.. Covering it up, and moving people around that committ very serious crimes such as sex abuse, and especially on kids, qualifies as ORGANIZED CRIME in my book, which is what RICO is all about…..

    What an interesting thought. You could be right. They admit they knew about these abusers by keeping a list.


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    Jeffrey Chalmers,

    We have soent quite a bit of time on Sanibel where Bill’s brother owns a place. I remember that sermon and have often laughed when I looked at some shells. I think the shells are pretty picked over and suggest captive instead, Pick up some shells in honor of Piper-waste your day enjoying the beauty of the ocean.
    I spent a week on Maui but I must have missed that beach. Did you do the road to Hana?


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    Samuel Conner: Perhaps in future there will be a new aphorism to express how bad something can be and still be acceptable: “good enough for Kingdom work.”

    You made me laugh!


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    MasterSanders,

    I think that this coming out after the Guidepost investigation lets us know that these things are possible tied. There were lawyers that worked with the SBC for decades. My guess is that they were lending their expertise to the very obvious abuse problem. Jeffrey Chalmerds raises the question of the RICO statute. It can possibly be used in abuse situations. There is also the issue of the “list.” The SBC was aware of these abusers but played the game of “nothing to see here.”


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    WORKFUL,

    Interesting thought. Are they looking into financials as well. That’s the hard thing about depositions. All sorts of things come out.


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    Ava Aaronson: Paul Pressler and his issues…

    That was meant as tongue in cheek. The SBC used the words like “issues” and “mistakes.” We believe it was lots more than that.


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    dee: There is also the issue of the “list.” The SBC was aware of these abusers but played the game of “nothing to see here.”

    Yes, this was not a list of the best Chinese restaurants in Nashville or secret societies that SBC elite belong to. This was a bad-boy list that should have been revealed, not concealed.


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    dee: The SBC used the words like “issues” and “mistakes.”

    My wife and I got food-poisoning at a restaurant (I suspected the coleslaw). When I called the restaurant manager, they responded with “Sorry.” So I called the county health department, who promptly investigated and cited them for food safety violations (including the coleslaw kept at room temperature).

    “We made mistakes” won’t cut it with the DOJ investigation of SBC.


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    dee,

    There’s a sorrowful aspect to this, though. IIRC, in prior TWW post(s) it was reported that some EC members felt that intentional “from above” action to address the abuse crisis within the SBC was a distraction from the Convention’s Gospel mission. It was acknowledged that the problems were ‘not good’, but the view seems to have been that the existence of these problems did not impair the SBC’s Gospel mission. IOW, it seems to have been a case of the SBC being regarded to be, in spite of its serious problems, “good enough for Kingdom work” and consequently not in need of intervention to repair the situation.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I’d say that the number of offenses kept secret, the number of offenders who were protected, and the wild-spread involvement of SBC leaders across multiple state might warrant a federal investigation.

    Like I’ve said on numerous occasions, when the doo-doo hits the fan (and it has now that the DOJ is involved) criminal indictments will be forth coming.
    For years and years, they thought they (SBC land) were immune and could continue on their merry way. Soon they will experience a rude awakening.


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    Max,

    There is a reason I don’t like coleslaw!


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    “ abused people were told to be quiet because “They would hurt the church of Jesus Christ.”
    Translation: It’s okay to protect people who commit heinous crimes and destroy lives…… for Jesus!!!

    ‘ “While we continue to grieve and lament past mistakes related to sexual abuse, “’
    Uhhhmmmmm. He left out a word or two in this statement…… Should have said, “While we continue to grieve and lament past mistakes, that of course were made very consciously and very deliberately for a specific reason , related to sexual abuse, “ (Is something done deliberately a “mistake”?)

    ‘“ We take comfort in that and humbly ask you be in prayer in the days and weeks ahead. Specifically, we ask God to grant wisdom and discernment to each person dealing with the investigation.”’
    Yeah, right. I’ll pray for the victims that were revictimized by the SBC leaders, not these self-serving false prophets.
    Did any of these SBC leaders ask people to pray for the victims?


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    dee,

    No w/r to the road to Hana… our rental specially said no to that!!
    But we did drive to top of volcano


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    Todd Wilhelm:
    While they’re at it, I wish the DOJ would scrutinize all the SBC churches that accepted government handouts in the form of PPP “loans.”

    I will be watching to see if these same churches that took the taxpayer’s money start crying about government intrusion.

    I know that JD Greear’s church took $2,306,000. Mark Dever’s church, from the affluent Capitol Hill area, took $315,029. David Platt’s church accepted $1.85 million of the taxpayers money!

    And that is just for starters.

    More details on McLean’s PPP loan (sic):

    https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/loans/mclean-bible-church-6918747103

    “MCLEAN BIBLE CHURCH Vienna, VA
    Loan Amount $1,848,800”

    “Loan Status: Forgiven”

    Transforming into basically a grant, gift, or subsidy just shy of $2 million? How about that…

    “Where applicants said the money will go:
    Payroll $1,386,600
    Utilities $462,200”

    Almost half a million dollars on utilities in a year where operations figure to have been impacted, curtailed, reduced, etc.? How about that…

    That amount adds up to the loan amount, yet the total forgiven is even more:

    “Amount Forgiven $1,874,227 — includes any accrued interest”

    Wouldn’t want anyone but the taxpayer to cover $25,427 or so of “accrued interest” in the total “Amount Forgiven”, now would we?


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): “… we ask God to grant wisdom and discernment to each person dealing with the investigation.”

    You reckon they included the DOJ investigators in this prayer? That might not turn out like they wanted!


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Yes, ‘Mistakes were made’ is code for ‘but don’t blame me’

    I’m thinking of what Prince Charles told his oldest son William concerning Charles and Diana’s disfunctional marriage. . . .

    I think Prince Charles KNEW exactly what he was up to and both he and Camilla really hurt Diana who came into that ‘arrangement’ as a teenager too young to see all the red lights going off. . . . but who am I to judge the older couple? It’s just painful to think of what a young girl faced in that ‘marriage’. Very tragic indeed.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Did any of these SBC leaders ask people to pray for the victims?

    Nancy, that’s an excellent question.


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    Tom Parker: I have often wondered what the SBC would be like if all the “liberals” had not been removed or women turned into second class citizens by the 2000 BF&M.

    Hmmmm … do you reckon the DOJ might take a look at gender discrimination? Heck, some of the more fundamental SBC churches essentially enslave women. Yep, there’s a lot behind the curtain in SBC life that DOJ will be amazed to see.


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    JDV,

    There’s a reason why people wanna’ get in on the religion racket.


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    Max: Hmmmm … do you reckon the DOJ might take a look at gender discrimination?

    Don’t get your hopes up. My guess is they might find someone to be the fall guy and call it a day. I am not expecting much to come of it. But maybe I am too cynical.


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    Ava Aaronson: Thx for this excellent post, Dee, and keeping us all up-to-date, with your TWW forum for discourse. We are grateful.

    I take issue with one phrase in the post: “Paul Pressler and his issues…”

    Paul Pressler and his crimes? Alleged?

    It has to remain “alleged crimes.” Pressler has never even been indicted. And the current case is civil. I imagine at this point Pressler is thinking he’s going to meet his maker before he has to answer in the civil case. (He’s 92.)


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    Max: In most states (if not all), church leaders are mandated reporters, required by law to report reasonable suspicions of abuse. A mandated reporter is one who is required by law to report reasonable suspicions of abuse. A report must be made when there is reason to believe that a child has been abused, is being abused, or is in danger of being abused.

    Apparently most (44) states allow religious authorities to use a particular dodge to keep from reporting perpetrators. If the religious authority finds out as part of a confession from the perp, the religious leader is *exempt* from having to report the abuse. This is the dodge recommended and used by the hotline run by the dominant church of the Intermountain West. The hotline is not for use by members, though, it’s only for use by male local authorities to call and basically get legal advice.

    This leads to perversions as local church leaders here in Arizona knowing that a father was sexually assaulting his young daughter but not reporting it. When the girl’s sister was born, the sick perv moved on to sexually assaulting the baby at a very young age. These church leaders NEVER REPORTED IT.

    What got the father arrested was that he was sharing videos, New Zealand investigators came across them, they got Homeland Security involved and finally this guy was tracked down and arrested. However, he killed himself, thus avoiding punishment in this wife. His wife went to prison for two years. The family of six children was split up, and three of the children are suing the church formerly known as Mormon for not reporting the abuse.

    Here’s the story, which is rough. Seriously, it’s very harsh. It’s by a familiar name, though–Mike Resendez, who was part of the Boston Globe Spotlight team. I suspect the AP team has got more things cooking, just as the Spotlight team didn’t let up after the first stories.

    https://apnews.com/article/Mormon-church-sexual-abuse-investigation-e0e39cf9aa4fbe0d8c1442033b894660


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    And this, to me, is just another form of “organized crime”….. Before RICO, the mob had it “figured out” to keep the top dog from ever being convicted…..
    The same as been going on in, basically, all organized religion for, probably, a very long time.. just think how “grateful” a perv is when he/she can confess to their “religious leader”…. And walk away knowing they won’t get caught….


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    Just wondering…the SBC moved pastors who committed crimes to different churches across state lines. If it’s multiple jurisdictions, then do the Feds become involved? If this also included ongoing sexual abuse and/or sex trafficking, that makes it even more critical for Federal agencies to investigate.


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    Old Timer,

    I agree..


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: If the religious authority finds out as part of a confession from the perp, the religious leader is *exempt* from having to report the abuse. This is the dodge recommended and used by the hotline run by the dominant church of the Intermountain West.

    This might not work since the seal of confession in Catholicism means the priest can tell no one, not his superiors, not his peers, not the authorities. Whether a group of people in the know can be protected may depend on state law. I don’t think the privilege should exist as a legal right especially for serious crimes against children. However, as soon as the ministers/bishop/whoever gets to tell any other person then no seal exists and he (or she) should be required to report like any other mandated reporter.

    BTW I think the Justice department can get involved if it looks likely the criminal actions crossed state lines. This could even be a matter of a person in one state calling a person in another in order to cover up a crime. Or if the actions are international (e.g., if a suspected abuser is an out of country missionary who is a US citizen).


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    Great post. I am Catholic and I support Michael Voris’ Church Militant. They battle the cover up of the Catholic hierarchy, which supports the homosexualists and homosexual clergy, many of whom are sexually active or have engaged in pedophilia or ephebophilia. Dee’s comment about the problem being pedophilia is spot on. The John Jay Report in 2004 documented this. Sadly, the institutional Catholic Church pays expensive lawyers in order to not help victims. They hide their money by shifting it around legally. Intrepid lawyers, like Jeff Anderson, have become experts in sexual abuse cases, and have brought some relief to the victims.

    It all needs to come out from the SBC. All of it. And the victims deserve compensation and help, and not just an apology.

    Dee is spot on. Where are the Calvinists now? Where is the justice they theologically promote?


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    With the amount of stuff we now know that SBC leaders have covered up over the years, I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve done much worse things that we will find out in the future. There are a number of leaders that used their institutional authority to enable cover ups, so they can no longer claim the SBC isn’t accountable for the abuse because churches are autonomous.


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    freemarketmises,

    I did not know about the Church Militant. I will do some reading about it.

    freemarketmises: Where are the Calvinists now? Where is the justice they theologically promote?

    They are silent, scared to death that one of their own will be investigated. Some Calvinists play the game that “This should be handled by the autonomous local church.”


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    dee: They are silent, scared to death that one of their own will be investigated. Some Calvinists play the game that “This should be handled by the autonomous local church.”

    Well, they’re already not playing that game by passing abusers around to other churches. They aren’t playing the autonomous game at all . . . not with their actions.


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    dee: “This should be handled by the autonomous local church.”

    Just like Calvary Chapel.
    Totally Autonomous Local Churches when that is to their advantage, a single Monolith marching in lockstep reciting Quotations of Papa Chuck when that is to their advantage.
    Disperse for Defense, Concentrate to Attack.


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    dee:
    freemarketmises,

    I did not know about the Church Militant. I will do some reading about it.

    Think YRR and Rushdoony Reconstructionists with Rosaries and Tridentine Latin Mass.

    They are silent, scared to death that one of their own will be investigated.

    Predestined to do so from before the Foundation of the World.
    “In’shal’lah…”


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    Muff Potter: For years and years, they thought they (SBC land) were immune and could continue on their merry way. Soon they will experience a rude awakening.

    They’re not worried.
    They have a final Trump card to play – Appeal to their CHRISTIAN Supreme Court.
    And/or wait for 2025 when they’ll also have a CHRISTIAN DOJ.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): “ abused people were told to be quiet because “They would hurt the church of Jesus Christ.”

    ‘ “While we continue to grieve and lament past mistakes related to sexual abuse, “’

    ‘“ We take comfort in that and humbly ask you be in prayer in the days and weeks ahead. Specifically, we ask God to grant wisdom and discernment to each person dealing with the investigation.”’

    “Three Point Six Roentgens, not Fifteen Thousand.”


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    Max: “We made mistakes” won’t cut it with the DOJ investigation of SBC.

    With the best lawyers money can buy and a CHRISTIAN Supreme Court to appeal to, The Fix Is In.
    Not even mentioning the probability of a CHRISTIAN DOJ in another 2-3 years.
    Then The Fix is REALLY In.


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    Samuel Conner: Perhaps in future there will be a new aphorism to express how bad something can be and still be acceptable: “good enough for Kingdom work.”

    How’s this local one from the Eighties:
    “So shoddy it has to be CHRISTIAN.”


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    Max: No one would accuse SBC these days of being salty.

    Oh, they’re saltier than ever.
    Not simple sodium and potassium salts, but heavy metal salts like Arsenic, Thallium, Mercury, and Plutonium.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Apparently most (44) states allow religious authorities to use a particular dodge to keep from reporting perpetrators. If the religious authority finds out as part of a confession from the perp, the religious leader is *exempt* from having to report the abuse.

    This needs to be changed.
    And I think the general populace would be ok with the change and readily agree that parish priests should be required by law to report child sex abuse or any other felony.


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    What is calling a crime a mistake? Deception?
    Who is the father of lies?
    Who is the way, the truth, and the life?
    Whom do we follow?
    With whom do we fellowship?
    Ruminating regarding this post. Thoughts.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Apparently most (44) states allow religious authorities to use a particular dodge to keep from reporting perpetrators. If the religious authority finds out as part of a confession from the perp, the religious leader is *exempt* from having to report the abuse.

    Whoa! That needs to be changed! Sex abuse is a crime … churches don’t need to be handling crimes.


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    Ken F (aka Tweet): I am not expecting much to come of it. But maybe I am too cynical.

    I’ve had that impression as well since the news broke about the DOJ investigation of SBC. It may just amount to a few hands being slapped, while SBC leaders cry without tears and promise to be better. Then church and state will part ways and go back to being separate again. If this happens, the victims will essentially become victims again.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: Think YRR and Rushdoony Reconstructionists with Rosaries and Tridentine Latin Mass.

    Predestined to do so from before the Foundation of the World.
    “In’shal’lah…”

    I don’t follow Church Militant at all, but from what I do know, that characterization is kind of unfair. They are holding the bishops’ feet to the fire far better than most other groups, methinks.

    OTOH they’re involved in a lot of internecine warfare I would just as soon not be privy to.


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher: I don’t follow Church Militant at all, but from what I do know, that characterization is kind of unfair. They are holding the bishops’ feet to the fire far better than most other groups, methinks.

    OTOH they’re involved in a lot of internecine warfare I would just as soon not be privy to.

    Also…they’re not TLM-onlyists at all AFAIK. And they certainly aren’t theocrats. That would be the ultra-rad-trads pushing for Catholic monarchy. And don’t get me started on them! 😀


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    Ava Aaronson: With whom do we fellowship?

    “For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?” (2 Corinthians 6:14-17)


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    would be better if Church were known for standing up for the voiceless victims of abuse,

    but that might be ‘too much’ for them what follows a political agenda of Christian Dominionism

    already the attack in Florida is on the children and the school system and it is full-on in support of a ‘Christian Nation’ instead of democracy

    very ugly politics on its way . . . depending on elections, HEADLESS may be right when he predicts a future when ‘The fix is in’ for ‘christians’ . . .

    religion and politics are both corrupted when either is used for personal power and gain, but when religion and politics form an alliance, you CAN and do have phenomenon show up like that golden statue representing ‘The Annointed One’

    strange days – our democracy is under attack by a lot more than fascism and there is NOTHING ‘Christian’ about ‘christian dominionism’, no way


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    christiane:
    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Yes,‘Mistakes were made’is code for ‘but don’t blame me’

    I’m thinking of what Prince Charles told his oldest son William concerning Charles and Diana’s disfunctional marriage. . . .

    I think Prince Charles KNEW exactly what he was up to and both he and Camilla really hurt Diana who came into that ‘arrangement’as a teenager too young to see all the red lights going off. . . .but who am I to judge the older couple? It’s just painful to think of what a young girl faced in that ‘marriage’.Very tragic indeed.

    I agree completely!


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    christiane: I think Prince Charles KNEW exactly what he was up to and both he and Camilla really hurt Diana who came into that ‘arrangement’ as a teenager too young to see all the red lights going off. . . . but who am I to judge the older couple? It’s just painful to think of what a young girl faced in that ‘marriage’. Very tragic indeed.

    I think it’s also important to understand what ‘marriage’ is in the old world of royalty.
    It is designed to cement alliances, both political and economic, and to ensure the generation of legitimate progeny to carry on the names of high-born houses.
    ‘Love’ in its old sense of ‘romance’ is never a primary concern in these kinds of alliances, in most cases, it only functions as a kind of window dressing.


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    Muff Potter,

    Yes, Prince Charles was ‘trapped’ by that system, I realize. But he failed to respect Diana’s lack of experience and youth. In short, he and Camilla took advantage of an innocent. As to Diana’s ‘awareness’ that something was wrong, I think she ‘knew’ there was a problem but likely thought she would overcome any difficulties. Charles knew more than Diana going in to the marriage,
    and he did not ‘explain’ the ‘deal’ to her clearly so in the end, she became the ‘trapped’ one. Very sad, for Diana, for the whole lot of them, especially for the children who were sensitive to their parents’ difficulties, sure.

    That it played out on the world stage? Even to the funeral? And those words Charles spoke to William, ‘mistakes were made’?

    tragic, best not to judge, hard not to feel for the young Diana though, looking back


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    Max: while SBC leaders cry without tears and promise to be better.

    For which they will all get standing ovations. Maybe even stained glass windows…


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Apparently most (44) states allow religious authorities to use a particular dodge to keep from reporting perpetrators. If the religious authority finds out as part of a confession from the perp, the religious leader is *exempt* from having to report the abuse. This is the dodge recommended and used by the hotline run by the dominant church of the Intermountain West.

    In one of the situations with my former church, a pastor said that they would deal with my report of clergy misconduct under the confessional seal. When I read the articles about the Arizona case, the reasons became clearer, but the clergy wasn’t the one reporting – I was.

    I wondered about RICO, too. The SBC intentionally kept track of pastors with abuse allegations and covered those up. An organization that knowingly covers up crimes (the list and reasons for its existence would be evidence of racketeering) seems a likely reason for an investigation.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): Maybe even stained glass windows…

    … in a Hall of Shame


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    Micah: The SBC intentionally kept track of pastors with abuse allegations and covered those up.

    “Sorry, we made mistakes” just won’t cut it with DOJ.


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    Max: “Sorry, we made mistakes” just won’t cut it with DOJ.

    And anyway, the proper phrasing is “Mistakes Were Made”.
    That lets EVERYBODY off the hook.


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    christiane: religion and politics are both corrupted when either is used for personal power and gain, but when religion and politics form an alliance, you CAN and do have phenomenon show up like that golden statue representing ‘The Annointed One’

    Again, it was NOT a golden status, it was a GOLD-PLATED FIBERGLASS STATUE.
    And Telltale has footage of Prophets and Apostles giving the same adoration to a CARDBOARD CUTOUT of the guy.
    CARDBOARD CUTOUT STANDEE. Now THAT’s the bottom of the barrel when it comes to Graven Images.


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    Muff Potter: I think it’s also important to understand what ‘marriage’ is in the old world of royalty.
    It is designed to cement alliances, both political and economic, and to ensure the generation of legitimate progeny to carry on the names of high-born houses.

    “Because You’re a Lannister!”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxBS3W2heLo