Spiritual Abuse: Looks Like The ACNA Is Also In On the Game #ACNAtoo

“Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence.” ― Leonardo da Vinci


Years ago, I was introduced to one of the “new” Anglican churches in Wheaton, Illinois. I loved the liturgy and the seriousness with which they practiced the sacraments. I found a similar church in Raleigh and thought I might join it one day when I left the SBC. But, as I have said in my story, I was told I needed to *reconcile* with my SBC pastor over the child abuse mess. To top it off, I spotted another well-known pedophile the second week I attended the church. He had just been released from prison and I was concerned about the access he had as I observed him running around. But the pastor said he was “just fine and not a problem.” This was after 30 years of history.

I thought this Anglican church would understand abuse. After all, they left The Episcopal Church when that denomination made it impossible to stay. They were treated poorly. Surely, I thought, they will treat me well when I explain the abuse I experienced by exposing the issues surrounding a bunch of teens who were molested by a SEBTS seminary student. However, the institutional friendship between an SBC church and an Anglican church trumped the pain of a nobody. (I hadn’t begun blogging yet but it happened right after this happened.)

I left that church in tears and began my years of wandering in the post-evangelical wilderness. Thankfully, I found a Lutheran church that held similar values to the conservative Anglicans. I did see a difference almost immediately. I noticed that the Lutheran pastors made sure that we understood they were “one of us.” In other words, they sin and fail like the rest of us. They live that out in the humble and kind demeanor with which they relate members (and visitors) of the church.

I continued to follow the “goings-on” in the ACNA and other similar Anglican groups. I was surprised by the constant infighting of the various factions. I kept trying to figure out how such a new group of churches could get so mad at one another. At this time, there is disagreement as to whether or not women can serve as clergy. Some allow this, others do not. Some Anglican churches believe that this difference constitutes “impaired communion” (I so love religious jargon. It sounds spiritual, doesn’t it?)

According to Wikipedia:

Bishop Jack Iker, bishop of the Diocese of Fort Worth—one of the founding members of ACNA—on 4 November 2017 announced that his diocese was in impaired communion with the ACNA dioceses that ordained women.[61] He said: “Most ACNA bishops and dioceses are opposed to women priests, but as it presently stands, the ACNA Constitution says each diocese can decide if it will ordain women priests or not. We now need to work with other dioceses to amend the Constitution to remove this provision”. He continued: 

We are in a state of impaired communion because of this issue. The Task Force concluded that “both sides cannot be right.” At the conclave, I informed the College of Bishops that I will no longer give consent to the election of any bishop who intends to ordain female priests, nor will I attend the consecration of any such bishop-elect in the future. I have notified the Archbishop of my resignation from all the committees to which I had been assigned to signify that it is no longer possible to have “business as usual” in the College of Bishops due to the refusal of those who are in favor of women priests to at least adopt a moratorium on this divisive practice, for the sake of unity. Bishops who continue to ordain women priests in spite of the received tradition are signs of disunity and division.

What the ACNA is/believes.

This is a pretty good synopsis for those of you who are not familiar with their beliefs. The denomination boasts @126,000 members. Think of it as three Robert Morris’s Gateway Churches.

Sexual abuse in the ACNA

For a review of the allegations of abuse in the ACNA, please refer to this page on the #ACNAtoo website. There are apparently a number of allegations of abuse in this newly minted denomination. I wrote about this in The Anglican Diocese of the Upper Midwest Was Outplayed by #ACNAtoo and Is Finally Forced to Deal With Abuse Victims in Their Midst.

Recently there have been further allegations: Former ACNA Lay Pastor Charged with Additional Sexual Assault Felonies

However, for this post, I want to explore spiritual abuse, which the ACNA types call spiritual hazing. It seems to be just one more, ho-hum denomination that has harmed its members in this manner.

It appears that the formation of this denomination as a “biblical” response to The Episcopal Church hasn’t turned out so well for its members. Back in 2019, I spied a problem that was occurring in the conservative wing of the Church of England in It’s Time for the Conservative, Evangelical Wing of the Church of England to Get Up to Speed in Dealing With Abuse #Istandwithfletchersvictims

In a video, you will hear one of those leaders in the evangelical branch of the COE, Gavin Ashenden, deny that spiritual abuse is a thing.

He is the man to the right in the video. He believes that there is no such thing as spiritual abuse although I think he would say that abuse has a spiritual component. He wrote a post on the matter There is no such thing as ‘spiritual abuse’ which was published in Virtue Online.

In the Virtue Online article, Ashenden claimed:

I find that I strongly disapprove of the term ‘spiritual abuse’. It is a euphemism and one that is going to be used oppressively by the progressive culture against the Church. It should neither be endorsed or adopted by us.

Abuse is usually psychological, sexual or physical. There is no such thing as ‘spiritual abuse’. Abuse may have spiritual implications but that is not the same thing.

Bishop Andy Lines either suffered psychological, physical or sexual abuse, or a combination of all three at the hands of Jonathan Fletcher, and it helps nobody to cover it with euphemisms. Indeed, I think he owes the other victims a duty of care to be clear and candid about which of those three forms of abuse were inflicted on him in order to help them find the confidence to overcome what feels like the shame of disclosure.

But how shall we respond to the criticism: “Of course there is such a phenomenon and as spiritual abuse. Consider for example classic situation of would-be a exorcism on an unwilling participant..”?

The first thing we might say is that the term ‘abuse’ has its roots in the world of you which sees the driving human dynamic as one exercising power. This is not a Christian perspective, but it just certainly a current secular one. It has roots in both Nietzsche and Marx.

The classic Christian worldview up-ends the relations of power and talks instead of kenosis and self-emptying. So anything authentically Christian can never involve an abuse of power.

I understand his point but…anything spiritual can be misused. To say that the following is not “spiritual abuse’ appears naive to me.

Here is an example. #ACNAtoo posted Judy Dabler, Matthew 18, and the Silencing of Survivors in the Church

On November 16th, 2021, Christianity Today broke an unexpected story on a largely unknown character: Judy Dabler. You’ve probably never heard of Dabler before (I certainly hadn’t). Yet Dabler has long been known in certain circles as a leading advocate and practitioner of “conciliation,” a process that claims to use Matthew 18 as a “biblical basis to pursue reconciliation.” She’s been brought in to prominent organizations such as Ravi Zacharias Ministries and Mars Hill Church, as well as dozens of other churches, and has offered training to over “10,000 people on how to pursue conciliation.” Yet unfortunately, the recent report by Christianity Today has unearthed an extensive array of condemning testimony. Rather than “biblical,” Christianity Today’s report concludes that Dabler was far more often wielding her model to be manipulative, coercive, and controlling in favor of those already in the position of greater power.

As Christianity Today reports: “In her conciliation work, though, Dabler consistently favored the person paying the bills, siding with the leader or big-name institution. Again and again, interviews and documents obtained by CT show, it was the less powerful party—the victim of sexual harassment, the beleaguered employee, the hurt congregant—who was pressured to make confessions they weren’t comfortable with and settle for agreements they thought were unfair.”

In other words, Dabler misused Matthew 18 in order to silence those whose views were an *inconvenience.” Instead, according to #ACNAtoo:

Second, congregants need to stop using Matthew 18 as a means to silence those who are making accusations against those in authority. Matthew 18 is not intended as a “one size fits all” model for handling disputes. It cannot be a Procrustean bed into which we force all our ministry and organizational disputes, let alone accusations of sexual or spiritual abuse. Instead, as report after report detail: pastors, particularly those at the head of larger organizations, have vested interest and organizational means to protect themselves from any allegation of misconduct. Even worse, in most instances of sexual or spiritual abuse in particular, the survivor of abuse has already walked some version of the “Matthew 18 model” where they first privately, and then in meditation sought to address their grievances, only to discover a system of self-protection surrounding their abuser.

When they then “go public” by sharing their story through social or traditional media, and frustrated congregants condemn them as “not following Matthew 18,” it is not the survivor’s lack of biblical commitment, but the congregation’s lack of willingness to consider the grievances that have been charged to their pastor. This does not mean that a pastor once accused should automatically be assumed guilty. But it does suggest that congregations need to become more “biblical” in seeing conflict, allegations, and abuse more broadly outside of a Matthew 18 lens.

For those of us involved in dealing with abuse in the church, spiritual abuse is all too common. In my discussion with Gavin Ashenden and friends, I firmly defended the presence of spiritual abuse. They were pleasant.

Religion News wrote In troubled ACNA church, alleged ‘spiritual hazing’ pressured members to conform

Hence this article was no surprise to me. I was glad that RNS revealed what appears to be spiritual abuse or spiritual hazing as they called it. I really like the term. This article involves incidents at the Church of the Resurrection, aka “The Rez.”

It was Rez’s combination of charismatic preaching and dramatic liturgy with priests wearing traditional robes and reading from the Book of Common Prayer that attracted the Perrines. But they found that the evangelical-Episcopal culture came with severe requirements to conform.

“The more you become involved in leadership, the more you’re encouraged to distrust anything outside of Rez’s orbit,” said former Rez parishioner Whitney Harrison. “There is a kind of blind submission to authority present at Rez that, in my understanding of the broader Anglican world, is not standard.”

According to Harrison, only those willing to submit to authority were invited into church leadership.

An anonymous former parishioner said, “I remember thinking, this is starting to feel a little bit more like a, I don’t want to say personality cult, but more of a rallying around a particular leader, in this case (Bishop) Stewart’s charisma.”

Former members also said church leaders pressured them to stay in abusive relationships, subjected them to conversion therapy and denied them leadership positions for voicing criticism. They describe a culture of censorship and controlling behavior, all packaged in overtly spiritual language.

It appears Bishop Ruch Stewart, a key figure in this mess, speaks for The Holy Spirit.

Former church members say the allegations are an indictment of an authoritarian culture that originated with Ruch.

“There’s this emphasis on the supernatural that enforces specifically the authority of Bishop Stewart in his position of speaking for the Holy Spirit,” said Harrison. “Whether deliberately or not, it is set up to support the idea that Bishop Stewart is the mouthpiece of the Holy Spirit to this church.”

One couple tried to understand a decision in which they were not chosen for a position. It appears to me that they were attacked instead of supported and understood.

In a follow-up meeting at the Ruchs’ house, Stewart Ruch allegedly instructed John to apologize to Damiani for questioning his decision, suggested John was idolizing church planting and said he and Jenna were too dependent on one another in their marriage. Ruch did not address the Perrine’s concerns about the hiring decision.

Does the bishop have unlimited authority? Does this lead naturally to abuse?

RNS posted With abuse allegations, conservative Anglican diocese faces questions about structure subtitled: ACNA’s Upper Midwest Diocese, where the abuse allegations have taken place, places few checks and balances on the bishop’s authority.

Complicating matters, ACNA has both geographic dioceses — such as the Diocese of the Upper Midwest — and dioceses formed according to churches’ theological stances, such as on the affirmation of women’s ordination.

As a result, dioceses sometimes overlap. Wheaton, Illinois, a Chicago suburb where the formation of ACNA was first announced in 2008, is home to ACNA churches from three ACNA dioceses — the Upper Midwest Diocese, Pittsburgh and Churches for the Sake of Others.

Each diocese has its own set of governance rules. In the Pittsburgh and Churches for the Sake of Others dioceses, there is more shared leadership. The Upper Midwest Diocese, where the abuse allegations have taken place, places few checks and balances on the bishop’s authority.

“On paper, no matter what personalities are filling these roles, there are significant structural flaws that could lead to conflicts of interest. The person with the most spiritual gravity might dominate,” said Aaron Harrison, an ACNA priest in the Wheaton area who is affiliated with the #ACNAtoo advocacy group. “The bishop, per the Constitutions and Canons, enjoys an enormous amount of unitary power.”

Part of the denomination’s response to the accusations in the Upper Midwest Diocese will be to name a group of ACNA representatives to examine the diocese’s overall structure, which has been criticized in the wake of Ruch’s leave of absence.

The final question: Is it merely about the rules and regulations of a diocese or the personality of one bishop or is it somewhat darker and deeper?

I think far too many enter the pastorate in order to get authority over their church members. the love being admirals in rowboats. They believe that they hear directly from God and therefore it’s their way or the highway. They run roughshod over the members. They lack the humility to see that they are “one of us.” They are not one of us. They believe that they are wiser and more spiritual than the riff-raff. They hear from God. We nobodies can’t understand such gifting.It really involves hubris, doesn’t it/

Jeremiah 6:14 says that men like this:

They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. ‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace.

They look really good in their robes and fancy headgear but they may be taking themselves far too seriously. The robes merely help cover the ugliness of those who are bringing pain to those who seek to follow Him.

“What if the bishop was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Tryin’ to make his way home?”

(Fractured lyrics from What if God was one of us.)

Comments

Spiritual Abuse: Looks Like The ACNA Is Also In On the Game #ACNAtoo — 114 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    From the post:

    “I think far too many enter the pastorate in order to get authority over their church members. They love being admirals in rowboats.”

    Hear, hear.

    And when rowboaters, i.e. “nobodies”, expose hierarchy where there should not be, the admirals have a myriad of theologies and terms to gaslight.

    Admirals posture (silence, gaslight, ignore, minimize), collect $$$, and demand loyalty (NDAs, membership covenants).

    Even in the OT, God warned about kings.

    Thank God we have one admiral, our Lord Jesus Christ, who neither built nor collected nor postured.

    (If church folk do a project & have the cash, go at it BUT it is in no way a requirement. Not what Jesus did. Not wrong but not necessary. Where God guides He provides; if God is all you’ve got, He is all you need.)


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    numero uno


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    I know a woman who was ordained (she had Rev. in front of her name) to some position in one of the many Episcopal Church offshoots. *Was* is the operative term. Right around Christmas 2018, she announced she had resigned her ordination and had left her church. Well that was surprising but hey, things happen. Three months later, she announced she’d been baptized into the Mormon Church. I was pretty stunned, to say the least. Still am.


  4. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    From the post:

    “where the abuse allegations have taken place, places few checks and balances on the bishop’s authority.”

    1st came thieves, money-changers Jesus cleared from the Temple. Church for profit. Schemes & scams. Televangelists.

    2nd came perverts, as in 1 Cor. 5 or OT Sodom and Gomorrah. Stealing innocence. Church for license. Cheap grace. Silence the victims. RZ.

    3rd comes strongmen. Control. Church based on authoritarianism. Herod in the NT. The Holocaust. Cult of personality. Calvinistas. Calvin, in his day, was a cult personality and an authoritarian strongman.


  5. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “What if the bishop was one of us?
    Just a slob like one of us
    Just a stranger on the bus
    Tryin’ to make his way home?”

    Once I ran into my (RCC) bishop making a midnight run to the supermarket.

    And just a few years ago, (different bishop) in line at an Arby’s.


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    How does this “ACNA” differ from the Episcopal Churches?

    As I understand it, the Episcopal Church WAS the Church of England in British North America, who split off in 1776-1787 for obvious reasons as the 13 colonies south of the St Lawrence broke away to form the USA.


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    Ava Aaronson: 1st came thieves, money-changers Jesus cleared from the Temple. Church for profit. Schemes & scams. Televangelists.

    This. Spot on.
    2nd came perverts, as in 1 Cor. 5 or OT Sodom and Gomorrah. Stealing innocence. Church for license. Cheap grace. Silence the victims. RZ.

    3rd comes strongmen. Control. Church based on authoritarianism. Herod in the NT. The Holocaust. Cult of personality. Calvinistas. Calvin, in his day, was a cult personality and an authoritarian strongman.


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ok operator error here lol. Meant to quote Ava’s text and add:

    This. Spot on.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy:
    How does this “ACNA” differ from the Episcopal Churches?

    As I understand it, the Episcopal Church WAS the Church of England in British North America, who split off in 1776-1787 for obvious reasons as the 13 colonies south of the St Lawrence broke away to form the USA.

    ACNA is one of the many breakaways from the Episcopal Church of the USA. This has been going on since the 1970s, when the ECUSA started ordaining women. Back in the day, the breakoffs didn’t actually say they weren’t ordaining women but that they used the 1928 Prayer Book. I first noticed this in the mid-1990s on my first trip to Sedona, AZ, where we drove past an Anglican church that promoted on its sign that it was “1928 Prayer Book”. I went home and looked up what that was all about on the nascent Internet.

    Just now I had the strong desire to drive up to Sedona for a couple of days, but that’s out of the question because pandemic. Blergh.


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    ACNA guys who are longtime Council Members of Calvinist fraternity ‘The Gospel Coalition’:

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/about/council/

    John Yates, recently retired rector of The Falls Church Anglican (he’s one of 7 TGC Council Members on TGC’s ‘Board’)

    David Short, rector of St. John’s Vancouver Anglican Church

    Ray Ortlund (Emeritus Council Member), pastor emeritus of Immanuel Church Nashville (nondenominational), but last year announced he’ll be serving under ANCA Bishop, Clark Lowenfield:

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/ray-ortlund/a-personal-announcement/

    Ortlund: “I am thrilled to announce a new path of service now opening up to me. The Right Rev’d Clark W. P. Lowenfield, Bishop of the Diocese of the Western Gulf Coast in the Anglican Church in North America, has graciously called me to serve him as a Catechist and Canon Theologian. He has kindly extended the same call to my dear friend, The Rev’d Sam Allberry.”

    “Jani and I will…keep worshiping at Immanuel Church. But now I rejoice in this added dimension of ministry within the ACNA.”


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    “I think far too many enter the pastorate in order to get authority over their church members. the love being admirals in rowboats. They believe that they hear directly from God and therefore it’s their way or the highway.”

    This passage always comes to mind from Chuck DeGroat’s book:

    “A colleague of mine often says that ministry is a magnet for narcissistic personality—who else would want to speak on behalf of God every week? While the vast majority of people struggle with public speaking, not only do pastors do it regularly, but they do it with ‘divine authority.'”


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    Ortlund: “The Right Rev’d Clark W. P. Lowenfield, Bishop of the Diocese of the Western Gulf Coast in the Anglican Church in North America, has graciously called me to serve him as a Catechist and Canon Theologian. He has kindly extended the same call to my dear friend, The Rev’d Sam Allberry.”

    Photo of an ANCA church planter prostrating himself before this Bishop Clark Lowenfield:

    https://www.facebook.com/adwgc/photos/a.339081499635787/548114338732501


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    oops ACNA not ANCA


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    “Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.”
    — Karl Marx —
    Does this mean that Potter is a Marxist?
    No it does not.
    Just because one statement from an ideologue is for the most part true, it by no means ensures that the guy who quotes it signs on to everything else.


  15. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: ACNA is one of the many breakaways from the Episcopal Church of the USA. This has been going on since the 1970s, when the ECUSA started ordaining women.

    Splinter Schism.

    We’ve got them on the other bank of the Tiber, too – the Old Catholics who split off after Vatican I and the Lefeberites, Baysiders, Hill-of-Hopers, and Uber-Trads who split off after Vatican II. (Like in one of The Screwtape Letters where Screwtape writes how “Our Father Below” indignantly walked out of “The Enemy”s Heaven in all Righteousness.)

    Each claiming THEY are the Only True Catholic Church, NOT the “church” that went into Apostasy. Some of them have even elected their own One True Popes.


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    Jerome: Photo of an ANCA church planter prostrating himself before this Bishop Clark Lowenfield:

    https://www.facebook.com/adwgc/photos/a.339081499635787/548114338732501

    In Western Rite Liturgical Churches, that is part of the ordainment ceremony for clergy.
    Was Ortlund being ordainced an ALCA Priest?


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Just now I had the strong desire to drive up to Sedona for a couple of days, but that’s out of the question because pandemic. Blergh.

    As far as I know, Sedona’s the Weird Religion Capital of Arizona, just like Mount Shasta and Joshua Tree NM/NP are of California.

    Best one I heard about someone who set up shop in Sedona was a Trance Channeller who channeled pods of dolphins in the Pacific. Including a gushing customer testimony (from someone obviously with too much money) about “I didn’t know Dolphins were so Spiritually Advanced!”


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    Jerome: has graciously called me to serve him as a Catechist and Canon Theologian. He has kindly extended the same call

    Does this mean that Bishop Lowenfield has hired these gentlemen, Mr. Ortlund and Mr. Allberry? Do they work directly for the Bishop? for his Diocese? Are they volunteers for him or his Diocese? How does that square with their obligations to the churches that employ them?

    Also, who talks like this? I don’t say my pastor has “graciously called me to serve him” (or serve the church, which would make more sense) as Spanish music director, and my son doesn’t say Walmart has kindly extended the call for him to serve them as a second-shift stocker.


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    Jerome,

    It appears that the Bishop is duly UNimpressed with the prostrate man on the floor.


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    Slight tangent here, but speaking of Hubble, it seems that the James Webb Telescope’s sunshield is now successfully deployed. The instrument radiator is now down almost to liquid nitrogen temperature (obviously, you couldn’t have liquid nitrogen in space, but yeez a’ ken what I mean).

    IHTIH


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    Exchange on Ray Ortlund’s instagram post of photos of his wife and his Confirmations:

    Q: “Are you going to a new church now?”
    Q: “how are you at Immanuel and a member of the Anglican Church?”

    his answer: “By the Bishop’s and Immanuel’s blessing.”

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CWBdA4CFl1E/


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    marco: [quoting Chuck deGroat] While the vast majority of people struggle with public speaking…

    Oddly enough, I’m not so sure about this. There are folk who’d rather gargle a box jellyfish than speak in public, it’s true, but I suspect that the minority of folk who genuinely enjoy public speaking is quite substantial. One thing I do wonder about is what proportion of narcissists (as reasonably defined) struggle with public speaking.


  23. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Oh, and I almost forgot:

    Cricket

    Australia’s Fourth Test victory procession starts in just over an hour, at the time of writing; the first day’s play in Sydney starts at 2330 UTC.

    You’re welcome.


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    Aug 2021, someone asked Sam Alberry, “Where are you?

    https://twitter.com/SamAllberry/status/1429724060276117505

    “Well it complicated — I’m in the (very, very slow) process of moving to Nashville. Am in Durham and Maidenhead for much of the meantime.”

    [Dee, I think that’s Durham, England]

    Nov 2021, In Nashville, seeking a “permanent visa”:

    https://twitter.com/SamAllberry/status/1461841632203055106


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    There is certainly a Durham in England; it’s famous for its university (which Lesley attended) and its magnificent cathedral, which opened in 1133 having taken 40 years to build. Of less antiquity is a fine railway viaduct, which carries the East Coast Main Line (the main route from London to Edinbruh *) immediately to the south of the station and from which the cathedral is particularly well seen.

    The Bishop of Durham is the 4th most bigly important bishop in the Church of England, after Canterbury, York and London.


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    * “Edinbruh” is how you actually pronounce Edinburgh. In fact, many Scots shorten it to “Enbra”, especially if they’re in a hurry.


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    I pronounce it “Ednbra”.

    Best regards,

    God


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    Nick Bulbeck: “Edinbruh” is how you actually pronounce Edinburgh.

    So, do you pronounce Pittsburgh as “Pittsbruh”?


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    Ava Aaronson: Calvin, in his day, was a cult personality and an authoritarian strongman …

    … who worked closely with the magistrate in Geneva to imprison, torture, and execute those who opposed his theology, while attempting to make Geneva a Christian (aka Calvinist) utopia.


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    Jerome:
    Aug 2021, someone asked Sam Alberry, “Where are you?

    https://twitter.com/SamAllberry/status/1429724060276117505

    “Well it complicated — I’m in the (very, very slow) process of moving to Nashville. Am in Durham and Maidenhead for much of the meantime.”

    [Dee, I think that’s Durham, England]

    Nov 2021, In Nashville, seeking a “permanent visa”:

    https://twitter.com/SamAllberry/status/1461841632203055106

    Hmmm…I wonder. I was made aware of some issues in England that I can’t speak about at the present time. Could it be that he needed to leave? Todd and I wish we were at liberty to speak about this but we can’t. At least not now. I wonder if you may have heard about similar issues.


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    “The robes merely help cover the ugliness of those who are bringing pain to those who seek to follow Him.” (Dee)

    False prophets come dressed in the best of sheep’s clothing … “but inwardly are ravenous wolves” (Matthew 7).


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    Why are former mega-church “lead” pastors joining a denomination that appears more Catholic than Protestant? This may be the first time they are answerable to someone temporally.


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    Jerome: Nov 2021, In Nashville, seeking a “permanent visa”:

    https://twitter.com/SamAllberry/status/1461841632203055106

    Hmm. So is Allberry trying to get a religious worker visa (fairly easy to get, Scientology used to get them en masse before Covid) or something more along the lines of a green card/permanent residency? So confusing.


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    Nick Bulbeck: The Bishop of Durham is the 4th most bigly important bishop in the Church of England, after Canterbury, York and London.

    The prolific religion scholar N.T. Wright was bishop of Durham from 2003-2010. Justin Welby was bishop of Durham from 2011 to 2013 before he went to Canterbury. So yes, an important seat in the Anglican church.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Good take. The schism also happened because of the ordination of non-heterosexual clergy. People had Biblical objections to that, and to the recognition of gay marriage in the Episcopal Church. All of this happened years before the Obergefell decision.

    The ACNA, CANA, and other folks generally did not walk away, leaving behind the Episcopal parishes they found so odious. Instead, they seceded in place, taking property, including several gorgeous and historic buildings with sweeping lawns, stately oaks, and ancient silver. Then they complained when the Episcopal Church took them to court to try to get the buildings and lands back.

    Oh, and one or two of the seceding clergy were rewarded for valor, receiving field promotions to bishop.

    Maybe some schisms allow for renewal and refreshment, but the several I have witnessed were very distressing for members and bad for the public reputation of the church.


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    marco,

    One can get “use to/even good” at speaking in front of people if you know what you are talking about… BUT, saying you are speaking for G$d??? The Bible has high expectations, and says some pretty strong words for “false” “speaker for G$d.. no thanks…


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    dee: Hmmm…I wonder. I was made aware of some issues in England that I can’t speak about at the present time.

    I believe Allberry is a citizen of the UK, hmmm, so a move to the USA doesn’t make a whole lot of sense unless he has a job lined up (along with the appropriate visa). It’d be like me, a citizen of the USA, just picking up and moving to Japan. I could do it (barring the current COVID restrictions), but it’d be kind of crazy as I wouldn’t have a job lined up and I’d have to figure out what I’d be doing and where I’d live. I’m not 25 anymore, so just picking up and moving countries on a whim is not something I’d do. Your Mileage May Vary.


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    Brian,

    They can run, but they cannot hide.


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    Friend,

    Oh, good grief. Leaders in leadership hierarchies fighting over who owns the dynasties and the spoils of interchurch warfare.

    What happened to the Church being the Body of Christ? Treasures in Heaven where moths and dust have no occupancy?


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    dee,

    Dee, it seems like every time you or Todd do a post, and your commenters contribute, it’s a Toto throwing back the curtain moment:

    “When Toto rips the curtain to the side, the Wizard of Oz realizes he’s been found out, and tries to cover it up by shouting over his loudspeaker, ‘Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!'”


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    Friend,

    Look at it this way, at least they didn’t go to war over it with sword, pike, and beaucoup blood like they did in the good old days.


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    Max: … who worked closely with the magistrate in Geneva to imprison, torture, and execute those who opposed his theology, while attempting to make Geneva a Christian (aka Calvinist) utopia.

    Our Founders were much closer in time to Calvin’s Geneva.
    Which is why I would argue that they put safe guards into our Constitution to ensure that men like Calvin never accrue the power they desperately covet.


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    Muff Potter: Look at it this way, at least they didn’t go to war over it with sword, pike, and beaucoup blood like they did in the good old days.

    Yes, boohooing over the thuribles is a rather genteel aspect of a split. 😉


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    Ava Aaronson,

    A lot of human behavior occurred.

    I should point out that some ACNA and CANA folks comment and lurk here, and have reported good experiences, presumably after things settled a bit.


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    Friend,

    Good.

    At the same time, never underestimating the importance of when Toto or a “nobody” throws back the curtain as a loudspeaker bellows: ‘Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!’”


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    Durham is an important bishopric because at one time its bishop wielded a great deal of temporal power (ability to collect taxes, raise a military force, have his own temporal courts) as a key figure in defense against Scottish incursions (or against other border lords who might decide to raid their neighbors).

    The ACNA is a combo of more recent breakaways who were fine with ordaining women but not with ordaining gays and older breakaways who left over ordaining women hence the mix of ACNA dioceses that do and don’t ordain women (though some of the newer breakaways are also against ordaining women). The ACNA is not a member of the Anglican Communion.

    The Episcopal Church in the US is descended from the Anglicans who remained in the US after the American Revolution. They were stuck with no bishops since the Church of England had never set up a bishop in the American colonies. They needed a bishop to ordain priests but any consecrated by the Church of England would have to swear an oath of fealty to the crown which was a deal breaker for US citizens. They ended up going to the Scottish Episcopal Church which as a non established church (the more or less established Church of Scotland was Presbyterian) didn’t require an oath of fealty to the crown for new bishops or priests, and, Samuel Seabury was consecrated in 1784. Oddly enough despite its name including “in the United States” the largest (by number of people) diocese in the church is Haiti.
    The Church of England established its first diocese in the Americas in 1787 in Nova Scotia.


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    Max: Ava Aaronson: Calvin, in his day, was a cult personality and an authoritarian strongman …

    … who worked closely with the magistrate in Geneva to imprison, torture, and execute those who opposed his theology, while attempting to make Geneva a Christian (aka Calvinist) utopia.

    Here’s a history question – let me know if you think this is accurate or not.

    During the Reformation there were attempts to make Christian utopias of one sort or another. Calvin had Geneva. Various Anabaptist groups in Germany took over whole cities, with a religious strongman making everyone conform to his often eccentric ideas of Christian perfection. I don’t see a similar tendency to create a Christian utopia under a religious strongman among Lutherans. Yes, there were Lutheran cities and territories and they weren’t tolerant of others but I don’t see anything like a religious police who would torture you if you couldn’t quote Luther’s Small Catechism by memory. I don’t see a Lutheran religious dictator demanding odd things from people because “God told him” to.

    I’m not trying to spark conflict between Reformed, Lutherans, and others, or cause arguments about who is “better,” Calvin or Luther, etc.


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    Jerome,

    In the C of E itself it is customary to make people of other denominations Canons. Two things are different here: firstly merely that it is ACNA; secondly and more intriguingly that catechist and theologian goes along with it.

    I don’t think now is the right time for such a rash of theologians, what with understanding of Scripture meanings in the religious establishment so low.


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    Max,

    Strictly speaking, this would be correct, yes.


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    Update:

    The hosts closed a rain-affected first day in Sydney on 126-3. As the forecast is wet for the remainder of the Test, Australia are now playing mainly against the weather. As and when play resumes, we can expect them to bat aggressively.


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    Jacob: I don’t see a similar tendency to create a Christian utopia under a religious strongman among Lutherans. Yes, there were Lutheran cities and territories and they weren’t tolerant of others but I don’t see anything like a religious police who would torture you if you couldn’t quote Luther’s Small Catechism by memory. I don’t see a Lutheran religious dictator demanding odd things from people because “God told him” to.

    Well, I’m not a student of Lutheran history, but it does appear that the Lutherans were a much more civilized Christian bunch among other factions of the Reformation. And I don’t see a group of “New” Lutherans today running roughshod over the American church like the New Calvinists. Praise God that the New Calvinists don’t have the magistrate in their pocket like Calvin did or Lord knows what atrocities we would be blogging about today … we have enough sin and rebellion in that camp already!


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    Muff Potter: Our Founders were much closer in time to Calvin’s Geneva.
    Which is why I would argue that they put safe guards into our Constitution to ensure that men like Calvin never accrue the power they desperately covet.

    Agreed. Calvin’s bad-boy practices were surely in the narrative of that day as another reason to provide religious protections for American citizens. Heck, some of the Founders were probably shouting “Remember Calvin!” when they were debating certain sections of the Constitution.


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    Ava Aaronson: Dee, it seems like every time you or Todd do a post, and your commenters contribute, it’s a Toto throwing back the curtain moment: … “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!”

    Or as Robert Morris would say:

    “I’m really concerned about how much time people spend on the Internet. I’m extremely concerned about it. Extremely concerned about it; here’s one thing, just even the blogs that mention Christian leaders, and I’m one of ‘em. Praise the Lord, I’ve made the Satan, Satan’s hit list now you know …”


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    dee: “I’m in the (very, very slow) process of moving to Nashville” (Sam Allberry)

    Perhaps his plan to move is no big deal … maybe he just wants to sing country music in the last chapter of his life. All the New Calvinists will have to sing a different tune as their movement winds down … recant, relocate, reinvent.


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    Max: maybe he just wants to sing country music in the last chapter of his life. All the New Calvinists will have to sing a different tune as their movement winds down … recant, relocate, reinvent.

    I can’t imagine him with a ten gallon. However, a saying applies here…big hat, no cattle.


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    Jacob: Yes, there were Lutheran cities and territories and they weren’t tolerant of others but I don’t see anything like a religious police who would torture you if you couldn’t quote Luther’s Small Catechism by memory.

    What does this mean? 🙂 When kids in Lutheran churches learn the commandments, they must also memorize “What does this mean.”


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    Max: Or as Robert Morris would say:

    “I’m really concerned about how much time people spend on the Internet. I’m extremely concerned about it. Extremely concerned about it; here’s one thing, just even the blogs that mention Christian leaders, and I’m one of ‘em. Praise the Lord, I’ve made the Satan, Satan’s hit list now you know …”

    That rhythm of rambling and repetition sounds a lot like DJT 45’s speech patterns.
    Like one’s imitating the other.


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    Erp,

    Thank you for the history lesson. I learn so much by blogging because folks like you come by and keep me educated.


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    Ava Aaronson: Dee, it seems like every time you or Todd do a post, and your commenters contribute, it’s a Toto throwing back the curtain moment:

    I had a good laugh ovet this comment last evening. Ever sicne Jerome posted, I’ve been reading.


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    dee: What does this mean? When kids in Lutheran churches learn the commandments, they must also memorize “What does this mean.”

    Duckspeaking a Party Line from memory and never asking “what does it mean” has a lot of examples both in and out of the Christianese Bubble. And it’s NOT a good sign.


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    dee: What does this mean? When kids in Lutheran churches learn the commandments, they must also memorize “What does this mean.”

    Yes, but no religious police grabbing you and demanding “What does this mean?” and dragging you to a dungeon if you don’t give a good answer. 🙂


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    Nick Bulbeck: here is certainly a Durham in England; it’s famous for its university (which Lesley attended) and its magnificent cathedral, which opened in 1133 having taken 40 years to build.

    The Durham Cathedral is prominently featured in the television series George Gently, at least in one of the seasons. A significant plot development occurs in the narthex, if memory serves me correctly.

    Another treasure of Durham (the University) that was left unmentioned was that Bill Bryson served as chancellor for many years. Time invested in reading the “Durham Boys” (i.e., NT Wright and Bill Bryson) is time well used. (Also, am I the only one who thinks Wright and Bryson favor each other? Have they even been photographed in the same room? Hmm…)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: rhythm of rambling and repetition

    Evidently, you don’t have to be able to talk right to be a mega-pastor in America.


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    dee: I can’t imagine him with a ten gallon.

    Yeah, it’s like trying to portray Errol Flynn as a cowboy in those old western movies. He just didn’t come across as a rough and tough sort of guy with that ten-gallon hat propped to one side. Heck, a big percentage of American preachers come across that way today.


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    dee: I can’t imagine him with a ten gallon.

    Neither can I, but I can imagine him with a growler.


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    Let’s not even get started on the mess at another flagship ACNA parish, Truro Anglican Church in Fairfax, Virginia. Their spiritually abusive rector, Tory Baucum, was pushed out in late 2019, only to be replaced by a sexually abusive interim rector, Tim Mayfield in 2020. Both were allowed to resign and receive incredibly generous severance packages. And the victims were further victimized. And the current “priest in charge“ did nothing to help the victims of the sexual abuse (and tried to cover it up). How this has not received more press is inconceivable.


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    Burwell Stark,

    I wonder. if they call a beer mug a growler in Nashville?


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    dee,

    Probably in the sections that drink IPA’s. So, around Vanderbilt?


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    Burwell Stark,

    Growler doesn’t mean IPA to me. It means EA-18G. I think you and I travel in different circles. 😉


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    Friend,

    Hahaha. Growlers are popular among the craft beer/ IPA crowd, which is what I was referring to. 😉


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    Burwell Stark: Growlers are popular among the craft beer/ IPA crowd, which is what I was referring to.

    I forgot to add: of which there are as many as there are country/ western types in Nashville nowadays.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy:
    How does this “ACNA” differ from the Episcopal Churches?

    As I understand it, the Episcopal Church WAS the Church of England in British North America, who split off in 1776-1787 for obvious reasons as the 13 colonies south of the St Lawrence broke away to form the USA.

    It still is the Anglican branch in America, ACNA is not actually a member of the Anglican Communion, it’s an organization that has taken upon itself the name. The Episcopal (‘having bishops,’ episcope, lit. overseer, is the Greek word for bishop) church has a taxonomical cousin in the Scottish Episcopal Church, also in the Anglican Communion. In the colonial era, the crown forbade consecrating Anglican bishops in America so nine Scottish Episcopal bishops did it, which is why the shield of the Episcopal Church has a blue field with nine crosses of St. Andrew on it. The Anglican Communion, to be clear, is not evangelical though some of its individual parish churches are.


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    Brave heart,

    If you would like to speask with me, I could see writing a post about this. Send me an email dee@thewatburgwatch.com


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    Brave heart: How this has not received more press is inconceivable.

    There’s so much of this going on in the American church, that it’s not headline newsworthy any longer.


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    d4v1d,

    Your points are all accurate, thanks. I would underscore that Episcopalians (members of the Episcopal Church in the US) are Anglicans.

    Many Episcopalians consider Anglicanism to be the via media, the middle way between Catholicism and Protestantism.


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    Max: Heck, some of the Founders were probably shouting “Remember Calvin!” when they were debating certain sections of the Constitution.

    I betcha’ they were too.
    Both Calvin and our Founders were products of their times.

    Calvin of course, was saturated with the belief that autocratic rule by a strongman was totally ‘Biblical’, well because…, ‘it’s in the Bible’.
    You (generic you) are at the whim and fancy of an earthly potentate up to and including a great big bad bogeyman in the sky.

    Our Founders on the other hand were products of 18th cent. humanism and a belief in the Rights of Man along with government by consent of the governed, despite the claims made by present day ideologues who say that our Nation was founded on the Bible and the Christian religion.


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    Brian,

    Answerable may be too strong a word among public figures equally prominent.


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    marco: [From Dee’s post] “I think far too many enter the pastorate in order to get authority over their church members. the love being admirals in rowboats. They believe that they hear directly from God and therefore it’s their way or the highway.”

    [marco] This passage always comes to mind from Chuck DeGroat’s book:

    “A colleague of mine often says that ministry is a magnet for narcissistic personality—who else would want to speak on behalf of God every week? While the vast majority of people struggle with public speaking, not only do pastors do it regularly, but they do it with ‘divine authority.’”

    A Psychology Today article link I posted some time ago on a different TWW thread seems appropriate / applicable here as well…

    Why Predators Are Attracted to Careers in the Clergy

    Article link: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/spycatcher/201404/why-predators-are-attracted-careers-in-the-clergy


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    The idea of the spiritual leader of the group being the central focus, with all eyes on him, seems to be rejected by Jesus when he tells the apostles that the Spirit will not come until Jesus, the focus of the apostles’ attention (and their ambitions), departs. After Jesus departs and the apostles begin to obey Jesus’ new command to ‘love one another as I have loved you’, the Spirit comes in power among them.

    “All eyes on the unitary leader who stands in the place of Christ” has its precedent in the structure of Jesus’ public ministry, not in the structure of the post-Pentecost Jerusalem church or of the churches Paul founded. It’s a little difficult for me to understand why more people are not more uneasy about being pressed into such visions of ‘how to do church.’ It’s as if the biblical precedents don’t matter at all.


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    Samuel Conner: It’s a little difficult for me to understand why more people are not more uneasy about being pressed into such visions of ‘how to do church.’ It’s as if the biblical precedents don’t matter at all.

    Perhaps because there is an unprecedented level of Biblical illiteracy in the 21st century church. The average churchgoer just doesn’t study the Bible or pray as they ought … and are, thus, easy targets for ‘how to do church’ rather than how to be the church.

    The 21st century church bears little resemblance to the belief and practice of the 1st century church. Over the ensuing centuries, man stepped in to create some 30,000 Christian denominations and organizations worldwide (according to Christianity Today) … each with a different model of how to do church. Instead of going forward, the Body of Christ would do well to go back … to return to the ancient paths in order to find and experience the Living Christ as they gather together. Praise God that there is still the Church within the church or there would be no “due north” for finding our way back to authentic Church … however, finding pockets of believers like this is like searching for a rare and endangered species.


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    At one of my former ACNA churches, the rector (head pastor) was formed at Rez-Wheaton, and Rez was his model for the church. The rector did think he spoke for the Holy Spirit. He seemed to have a hard time with keeping assistants and with sharing responsibility, but at the same time, he was unavailable much of the time.

    Eventually, he and another of the long-time leaders had relationship difficulties, and how did they “resolve” those? Yep, a reconciliation process. The other leader made a statement publicly. A few months later, the leader began to return to the church and was welcomed by many people. The next thing we know, the rector read a letter from the Bishop to the leader telling the leader and their family to worship somewhere else. That was followed by the Bishop visiting the church and telling us that we had been horrible to the rector. We were accused of “gossiping and creating division” and told that we shouldn’t talk about the issues. It seemed to me like the “sin” was welcoming the leader back into the community.

    The pastor took some time off, then returned to his position. The church members were required to sign a statement that they wouldn’t talk with one another about issues.

    The pastorate attracts people who have narcissistic tendencies; lots of power over others without much accountability. I think that one of the things that people within the ACNA are struggling with is the idea that the accountability structures are not consistently working. There are many spiritual abuse survivors who have found healing in the liturgy, and they need to feel safe again.


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    Micah,

    I would be interested in doing a post on this story if you are up for it. We can protect your name.


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    Max: man stepped in to create some 30,000 Christian denominations and organizations worldwide

    What’s not good is the notion that We Alone Are Going To Heaven, and all that implies, from shunning to warfare. There are slick new worship styles, as well as styles so bloodless and oppressive, that worshipers—let alone the Spirit—can hardly breathe.

    But I love the deep and varied ways in which people show their love of God, incorporating their own languages, imagery, styles of music, and cultures. Silent Quaker meetings are wonderful, and so are Russian Orthodox cathedral services.


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    Friend: What’s not good is the notion that We Alone Are Going To Heaven, and all that implies … But I love the deep and varied ways in which people show their love of God

    Agreed. God didn’t call us to “sameness” but to “oneness.”


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    Micah: told that we shouldn’t talk about … church members were required to sign a statement that they wouldn’t talk with one another

    This is the death knell. I’ve seen this increasingly as the whole kaboodle gets worse and worse. No wisdom of ordinary attenders is trusted. Holy Spirit blasphemy. Heaven comes through ordinary people. And it was the big shouts that caused the entire problem. To have a bossy bishop piling in is horrific. Membership is about having a voice in business, and volunteering.


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    Samuel Conner,

    Thank you Samuel. This is why the charismatic, and eschatology, which began exactly then, and prayer (non-TM), are not genuinely controversial (as ceremonial is for example).

    The rows are almost always decoys and pretexts. Look at the swing to the “left”, how nice we suddenly are about the so called “headline” issues.

    Please Samuel keep repeating your message to us!


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    Friend: What’s not good is the notion that We Alone Are Going To Heaven, and all that implies, from shunning to warfare.

    Why are so many Christians obsessed with ‘heaven’?


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    Muff Potter: Why are so many Christians obsessed with ‘heaven’?

    You’re asking me? 😉


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    Friend: You’re asking me?

    Just out of curiosity, no offense intended.


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    Michael in UK (The link to reply isn’t autofilling)

    That was the major red flag for me. Anytime a church requires a member to sign something, it doesn’t end well.


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    Muff Potter: Just out of curiosity, no offense intended.

    Apologies… I wasn’t at all offended, and put in the wink emoji because I don’t get the obsession either.

    I can understand people wanting to go to heaven (though not obsessively). It’s harder for me to understand a belief in eternal torment in Hell. Not all Christian groups have taught this, but it’s such a common belief.

    When people believe in a Hell of eternal torment, they start making assumptions about who will go there. They assume people deserve to go there. And then they might well dehumanize those people, expelling them from the family or sending them off to labor camps.


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    Michael in UK,

    Thanks, Michael, for your encouragement.

    Don’t think of it as ‘mine’; lots of other people have noticed the “among” character of the presence of the Spirit. But I think it’s not an idea that easily gets purchase in modern thinking. We singletons are human atoms, or maybe we’re nuclear families — small di- or poly-atomic molecules. But “Condensed matter” isn’t really a thing in Western thinking about ‘how to be human’. I don’t understand it at all myself. But I can see that it seems to be important in the New Testament, and I imagine that it might be important to the future of the churches.

    Again, thanks.


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    Micah,

    I would be interested in doing a post on this story if you are up for it. We can protect your name

    — I sent you an email.


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    dee,

    I sent you an email.


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    Friend: When people believe in a Hell of eternal torment, they start making assumptions about who will go there.

    “Always Thee, NEVER MEEEEE!”

    They assume people deserve to go there. And then they might well dehumanize those people, expelling them from the family or sending them off to labor camps.

    Why stop at labor camps?
    “KILL THEM ALL! GOD WILL KNOW HIS OWN!”


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    Max: The 21st century church bears little resemblance to the belief and practice of the 1st century church. Over the ensuing centuries, man stepped in to create some 30,000 Christian denominations and organizations worldwide (according to Christianity Today) … each with a different model of how to do church.

    And a lot of the smaller ones were officially “Restoring the 1st Century Church”.
    Like the Wahabi and Taliban Restoring the “Original Islam As It Was in the Days of The Prophet”.


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    Friend,

    Heaven is being in some strong sense in God’s presence – wherever our bodies may (not) be at the time. Being saved, and the Kingdom of God, are two more things, all not being exactly the same. God sees a lake of fire coming where fire is probably meant in more senses than one.

    I’m not going “cheesy” asteroid routes but according to say the BBC, to this day scientists sometimes calculate there had been one, days after the event or only see it a few hours in advance: this is science as I and countless children used to admire it in our young day. Thus God has to foresee how to get humanity “off” or “out of the way” or somehow “proof” against “whatever”.

    The cosmos is the place where we would providentially exist and be able to thrive, if not strangled by badder corporations. Gospel has to give hope, to already-belongers and newcomers. It appears the kind of integrity that will come of what He sees as ministering for good fruit (especially in intercessions) (crown or our “covering” by God), will make us “more” proof, but gets misunderstood as a “salvation by works controversy”.

    There is evidently something about various kinds of sins making us less able to potentise the gifts of the other other (not Schelerite cliqueyness). Does the NT show us people in different states or grades? Is Jesus off-pat about the future? Any genuine interpretation is not meant as demonising. Careless authorities do that; as blunt instrument against hooligan children or indeed the innocent that tell the truth.

    The thief’s repentance was taken as a form of intercession for us all, hence St Cosmas; those of us feeling complacent in the long haul have to construe God’s economy on different species of “sliding scales” (parable of the working hours). Those are just my ideas though!


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    https://catholicherald.co.uk/ch/sensitive-saint-fitted-up-as-feminist-fashion-icon/

    Ref the problems C P Snow highlighted: following the abolition of inference and psychology: logic (i.e honesty) has disappeared from politics; the replacing of teaching by game theory a.k.a behaviourism (pupils as missiles or targets) has made science inaccessible at school level; mathematics completely vanished among “mathematicians”.

    I question the influence of Oak Hill and “self-giving exchange” (shades of Scheler). (Holy Spirit expresses room for the other other so that “His burden – my brother – ain’t heavy”. Bring your shopping list to Our Lord WITHOUT price.)

    The complainants GA is complaining about are Catherine of Siena, and he is wasting their Holy Spirit message. Why shouldn’t the radio debaters praise her as feminist – they have not missed the point that she stood up.

    https://www.christiantoday.com/article/melvin.tinker.and.the.flaws.of.evangelical.anglicanism/137802.htm

    GA cites Melvin Tinker in a monition against the Bishopsgate / Brompton cliques. But he hasn’t grasped the grounds that should be on: he’s defending them for their Holy Spirit unbelief. “Repent of social snobbery” is well put but means more than GA thinks. Those cliques, and not the Frankfurt School, replaced having trust in Holy Spirit in anyone lower than themselves with a manoeuvring dialectic based on pizzazzful short-changing numerology (ref Steve Baughman p 159).

    Nietzsche was on our side; has GA any idea of Bismarck’s Prussia? Friedrich’s brother in law sold poor Saxons intractable plots in Paraguay and his sister rewrote his posthumous notebooks to suit the Nazis (this is in Ben Macintyre’s Forgotten Fatherland). The searcher for honest men (representatives of God) in the market with a lamp at noon says “we have killed Him you & I” meaning the Lord Haw Haws of the very time and place.

    Has GA critiqued the effect of the dictator F Bacon, Spinoza, H Spencer, J S Mill (often), Frege (who should have stuck to maths), the superficial Barth, and above all Manifest Destiny William James and the ruthless charlatan O W Holmes Jr? Because if he doesn’t, he can’t prepare to oppose the Cultural Marxism (hegemonism) that Conservative Evangelicals and their lookalikes promote. Which Bible Colleges do the cliques come from?

    Occupying positions of authority for lengths of time, or gaining a little help from the Enemigos placed the onerous duty of calibre of intellect upon GA. Would he listen to one of the Pope Alexanders: “Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring.” We should follow Saint J H Newman and use degrees of inference we didn’t know we had (clue: it’s not 1845).

    “I think he owes the other victims a duty of care to be clear and candid about which of those three forms of abuse were inflicted on him in order to help them find the confidence to overcome what feels like the shame of disclosure”

    I think GA is here not warning against finding dotty lawyers who will try to use Lines et al to make their name by trying out a novel point. “Do as you would not be done by the police” (of some) in its “. . . by the court” variant. Wouldn’t God have a view EVEN before the courts threw it out?

    Ex-rev GA has set up a category of holy which is as powerful for him as it is for Bishopsgate / Brompton and doesn’t exist for the complainants or us commenting. Or does he mean the other way round but daren’t admit it? He has conflated the sacred charge which is on unequal religious relationships / focuses of worship from the start, with any spiritual subsequent byproducts of all sorts of wrongs (by skewed reading of caring literature).

    Kierkegaard saw through Paschasius Radbertus: where was the alchemy coming from then? “Impaired Communion” was complained of frivolously. Jesus did the Supper because it was old custom and His intent was to teach meanings. Communion is as communion does; the many desolating abominations have and shall have many meanings.

    To stop being an influencer (because an influencee) and start being an inferencer takes background knowledge; to ditch ideology and go for intellect. If too far above humanity and Holy Spirit one can’t see anything.


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    “KILL THEM ALL! GOD WILL KNOW HIS OWN!”

    how does this lack of concern for the innocent transfer into our modern fundamentalist-evangelical-trumpist-QAnon rallying to the anti-vax movement?

    Sadly, I have read that some feel ‘it’s OKAY’ if people die, that the ‘saved’ will live eternally. And so ‘freedom to die’ came into conflict with a kind of ‘hubris’ that ignored reality and doomed so very many innocent Americans to a terrible death,
    and their families to the grief and loss that must be ‘endured’.

    What kind of thinking doesn’t ‘care’ if someone innocent is doomed to die of a virus when it is known that those who are dying now on the whole ARE the ‘unvaccinated’.

    What kind of mind entertains the ‘mis-information’ and the ‘dis-information’ coming from unqualified people and propagates that so-called ‘truth’ as ‘reason’ to ignore reality????

    What is going on when something so precious as concern for the well-fare of the innocent seems to have ‘gone away’ in pursuit of some kind of ‘savior’ who says ‘only I can fix it’? And then when the hubris becomes SO entrenched that the ‘savior’s’ supporters who vote are dying in larger numbers, the ‘I alone can fix it’ demagogue says ‘GET VACCINATED’ and those who worship at his altar ‘boo’ him,
    as they are now in another ‘reality’ born out of departing from the age-old teachings of Our Lord in His concern for the weak and the weary WITHOUT A SHEPHERD?

    What happened? The darkness is drawing good people away from the light of conscience that WARNS US when some mortal being says to us ‘I alone can fix it’. What happened?


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    Max,

    Read your history Max, or even better, take the free University of Geneva Coursera course and you’ll see that Calvin never had anyone in his pocket.


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    dee,

    It looks like a coming together of Revoice SSA advocates.


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    Lowlandseer,

    This whole thing is rather odd. Allberry resigned on the down low and is “slowly” moving to Nashville. I don’t want to discuss politics but I believe there is some of that involved here. I wonder if church discipline will involve those who don’t toe the line? I’ll definitely be watching what’s up.


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    Lowlandseer: Calvin never had anyone in his pocket

    Is it not true that Servetis was imprisoned by the city magistrates at Calvin’s request? And how was he going to make Geneva a Christian utopia by moving it toward a theocracy, where moral law and civil law were one in the same, without the assistance of the magistrate?


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    christiane: What happened?

    I speculate that the phenomena you describe are an outworking within the wider body politic of ‘the eclipse of wisdom by faith’ that I think occurred in 20th century within significant segments of the Evangelical movement. A theological movement arose and became quite powerful (‘dispensationalism’) that saw OT and NT as being basically about completely different sets of concerns (OT concerned with earthly things, NT with heavenly things). In OT, it is ‘wisdom’ that is salvific in ‘under the sun’ terms; this was discarded in favor of ‘faith’ that provides post-mortem salvation.

    (I’ll note that I think the Reformed do a better job of holding these two together, perhaps a consequence of their more ‘synthetic’ approach to the Scriptures as a whole. Disp’ism is highly ‘analytic’, seeking distinctions everywhere)

    I don’t think the omelet can be unscrambled. Hope I’m mistaken.


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    Samuel Conner,

    Thanks for responding, Samuel Comer.

    Concerning the inter-connection between the OT and the NT, a saying from my own tradition, this:

    ” the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New ”

    (Augustine)


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    The province has hired, Jan 14, a group for investigation https://anglicanchurch.net/firm-hired-to-investigate-allegations-of-misconduct-in-upper-midwest/

    I note that three members of the ACNA Provincial Response Team have now resigned (apparently today 17 Jan) over how things were handled.

    https://www.acnatoo.org/acnatoo-news/prt-resignation-011722


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    Technically these answers are correct,

    d4v1d: It still is the Anglican branch in America, ACNA is not actually a member of the Anglican Communion, it’s an organization that has taken upon itself the name.

    Technically this is correct, but in reality the picture is different. The Anglican churches in ACNA were started by archbishops in Africa and Singapore setting aside an American missionary bishop to head up an orthodox body in the US to hold the faith while the American Episcopal Church was going in directions they felt were contrary to Scripture (ordination of homosexuals, denial of Virgin birth, ritual services in favor of abortion, denial of Christ’s divinity). At the time, they were called Anglican Mission in America, or AMiA.

    Eventually, the African and Singapore Archbishops consecrated an American Archbishop. Since that time, the group of worldwide Anglicans has met in Jerusalem twice and in Kenya once, meeting every several years under the guise of Global Anglican Futures Conference (GAFCON). They signed the Jerusalem Declaration in 2008 promising Biblical fidelity and Gospel Mission. The last gathering was in 2018 in Jerusalem and had close to 2,000 delegates, being the largest gathering of Anglicans ever. The theme was “Proclaiming Christ Faithfully to the Nations.” Member countries sign the Jerusalem Declaration and remain in Communion with one another, while not always agreeing with the wider church. Most delegates have been avoiding Lambeth since that time in protest to what they feel is a departure from orthodox Biblical Christian belief in parts of the Anglican world.

    At the last GAFCON meeting, in 2018 (before Covid!), the current ACNA Archbishop, Foley Beach, was named as current chairman of GAFCON, sending a strong message to Canterbury that the ACNA is officially recognized by the Global South of the Anglican Communion. The Nigerian Archbishop of Jos, Nigeria, Ben Kwashi, was named Vice Chairman.

    To say that ACNA is not part of the Anglican Communion is a mistake in my opinion, because the Global South, the majority of the Anglican Communion, recognizes the ACNA as fully part of the Anglican Church. The only groups that do not officially recognize ACNA as the true part of the Anglican Communion are the Episcopal Church and Canterbury, although I doubt they would deny they are part of the Communion in one way or another. (Even the Roman Catholic Church unofficially officially recognizes ACNA. One of the Archbishops was the current Pope’s prayer partner long ago, and when the ACNA was formed, rumor has it that he was asked to celebrate Communion in one of the Roman Vatican churches. When Foley Beach was consecrated, the Pope (Benedict XVI) sent him a crozier for his consecration.)

    Within England there is now a growing Anglican Mission movement, in Ireland, New Zealand, and in Scotland the same. The Anglican Church is changing, and the majority witness in the church is now in the former colonies of England. The majority of Anglicans world-wide are from the Global South! Their will and witness is intact. Perhaps God is blessing their commitment to Biblical Witness as they are the fastest growing element of the Communion. Time will tell.

    As for Calvin, much is being said of his atrocities, but as I recall in history, he was a very reluctant leader. He had constant pain from severe health problems, including anemia, kidney problems, and gout, and wanted nothing more than to stay in his study and write in peace. I don’t think he was power-mad. As I recall from sporadic reading on the topic, he was outplayed by the people who wanted him in charge, and didn’t make a great governor by any stretch of the imagination.

    Not to excuse the bad things, but we have to read history in its context, and I don’t think he was a power-grabber. I think he was just a bad administrator living in a bloody time. It took time for them to realize they didn’t need to force conformity in geographic locales.


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    As an addendum, at the time of the forming of the ACNA, Pope Benedict XVI was so concerned with the plight of formerly Episcopal Churches in the US that he offered the Ordinariate, the path for an entire diocese to come into the Catholic Church while retaining their Anglican prayer book and distinctives. Their priests would become Roman Catholic, and upon widowerhood remain celibate. There aren’t many of these ordinariate dioceses, but there are some. It is a further confirmation of the way in which the Anglican Church in the USA is changing.

    In addition, formerly Episcopal churches who left TEC sooner than the 90’s and early 2000’s when the Anglican Mission in American or CANA was formed also came into ACNA, so that it represents a not inconsiderable conglomerate of faithful Anglican churches in American now. They are joined by other American Anglican churches in the global south such as the one in Recife, Brazil.


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    What we now see playing out in the ACNA as a denomination also played out on a smaller scale at Truro Anglican Church in Fairfax, VA, last year. Two women brought forward allegations of sexual abuse by Rev. Tim Mayfield, the then-interim rector of Truro. Those allegations were shuffled around and minimized, even by one of the Bishop’s “canons”, who incidentally is now Truro’s priest-in-charge.

    Finally the allegations reach Bishop Guernsey. Almost two months pass. Eventually an outside law firm is named to investigate the allegations. NO written report requested. After months and months, the verbal (!) report is shared with the vestry and the diocese. Rev. Mayfield is allowed to resign, receive an incredibly generous severance package, with his reputation fully in tact, and a GoFundMe campaign raising him an additional $60,000 (https://www.gofundme.com/f/blessing-fund-for-the-mayfields).

    Somehow, the Mayfields their reputation. As does the diocese. As does ACNA.

    But the victims? They get slandered. They get retraumatized. They get no financial support. And the very person who had failed to handle their allegations gets promoted as priest-in-charge.

    If you want to know how ACNA’s “investigation” is going to play out, look no further than Truro Anglican Church in the Diocese of the Mid-Atlantic.


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    I was part of an ACNA church for awhile. Loved the liturgy and was hopeful after experiences within other abusive churches.

    What came as a surprise was, for all the psychological leanings of the rector, his inability to take criticism and work through conflict. When confronted honestly and rationally about progressive teachings that he had allowed into the church, he made it clear that for us to remain, we must stop speaking about the issues at hand, or we must leave the church. We became the problem rather than the issue at hand.Jeff VanVonderen’s book helped create understanding about how the situation had become abusive.

    We sadly left.