Women and children are disposable in the Duggar family.

Before I say anything (in another post), I’m going to comment on the Zodiacal light picture. Brian May, guitarist for the band Queen, left his doctoral program where he was studying the Zodiacal light to play full time for Queen. In 2007, he finished and was awarded his doctorate. Apparently he discovered that there is a seasonal variation in the Zodiacal light.

If you’re unaware, the Zodiacal light is caused by extremely fine particles of space dust smacking into the Earth and going through the atmosphere. Apparently 5,200 tons of space dust falls on Earth every year. Zodiacal light is called “false dawn” because it occurs ~three hours before dawn. Us city folk can’t really see the Zodiacal light because (well in my case) the lights of Phoenix tend to wash everything out. But apparently it’s a thing in the country.

Ava Aaronson: The fact that the favorite #1 son pleasures himself with photos of the gross sexual violation of infants tells the truth of how this clan really thinks & feels about, & treats babies.

Common headline for this sort of thing:
MORE CHRISTIAN FAMILY VALUES

And overheard on the bus last time Josh got in the news:
“Duggars bla bla bla they’re CHRISTIAN bla bla bla Guess it’s okay to bang your sisters as long as you’re not Gay…”

Headless Unicorn Guy, you need a foot up your rear end for saying what you did about Anna Duggar. Did it every occur to you that she might be trapped, scared or groomed. Go ahead and tell that to all the women everywhere that stay with abusive husbands, cheaters and drug addicted men. In fact, why don’t you call Rachael Denhollander and ask her why she didn’t remove herself from her abusive coach, after all it’s easier when you don’t have seven children and are married.
Everyday teenagers leave and seek help from abusive situations, she didn’t for a long time, was she weak? Of course not, she was scared and groomed to stay.

We don’t know Anna’s situation and it is easy to condemn her for her unwise decisions, but it appears that my non Christian friends have more compassion and understanding of what she may be going through than many Christians. I have a good sized home but I sure couldn’t fit 7 children in easily, She can’t easily pick up and leave and what about finances, childcare and other issues
we know nothing of. It is always easy to be outside looking in than in the furnace. So Headless be the first to pick up that stone and hit her right between her eyes. We can’t hold Anna Duggar to a different standard than other women on this site who have been groomed , abused and had other bad things happen to them and been shown compassion.

Josh Duggar did evil and society is sending him to prison for a long time but I don’t take any delight to what has happened to his parents or siblings. It will be hard on all of them. I didn’t agree with their choices or watched their show but
I feel a measure of compassion for any parent that has a child in prison. I had a son in jail for drug charges for a while ( who needed to be there) but it still hurt.
Josh’s children will face ostracism and taunting and who know’s what for the sins of the father, I feel for them. They have a tough road ahead of them. I feel for Anna Duggar, the Lord knows that I would have done a lot of things different raising all of my children if I could go back in time and make different choices

For a victim advocate, you seem to have an odd take on Anna. I agree that the kids’ safety is paramount, but I can also see that Anna, after a lifetime of cult brainwashing, might be having trouble figuring this all out.

R: Anna, after a lifetime of cult brainwashing, might be having trouble figuring this all out

Good Lord! The whole family has had their brains washed thoroughly for years with Gothard’s quiver full nonsense! A man who has trouble keeping his pants, who has sick sexual tendencies, and who desires to keep women in bondage will find a home in that cult. I’ve been to churches where Gothard followers were members … women and children walked in behind their husbands, the oppression on their countenance was obvious. Anna could have done more to stop Josh, but was no doubt ensnared by the whole Duggar family sickness.

Max,

I don’t know all the ins and outs of quiverfull and iblp and if/how they are connected. But from what I know of the respective ideologies it would make a lot of sense that they would be related.

And yes from what I know “not pleasing to God” wouldn’t begin to cover it.

Dee, you don’t know all the facts ,maybe she is brainwashed. Also my ex dealt with child abuse and often times tho court would intervene. My understanding was he ( Josh) was staying with Duggar family friends according to the news. He may have had limited contact supervised by a court appointed guardians but not publicized because juveniles are involved. Not everything is being made known.

Before we assume the worst of Jana, let me share a rumor–and it is only a rumor–circulating regionally: Jana was upstairs asleep when someone else left the house leaving a minor in charge of toddlers assuming Jana would supervise. As the only adult in the house when the child was found wandering on a rural road, she received the ticket. It is a class b misdemeanor meaning no arrest, just a ticket like a traffic ticket. She is pleading innocent and if the rumors are correct, it is likely she truly is innocent.

Again, this is just a regional rumor.

I’m going to raise a question that I’ve only seen raised once before – does anyone else wonder if Josh Duggar was himself abused by someone, & that was why he went on to abuse his siblings?
I certainly don’t subscribe to the idea that all abusers were themselves abused, or that those who have been go on to abuse. I just wondered how far the sexual dysfunction goes in these families & cults.

dee,

You are right. Can’t have it both ways.

Certainly the mom can get whatever help she needs. In any case, she’s an adult.

The kids? They only get one chance to be children. And, they ARE children.

Mom is an adult.

The kids are dependent children.

Facts.

ChuckP,

“He may have had limited contact supervised by a court appointed guardians but not publicized because juveniles are involved.”

The court appointed guardian was Anna. This is what the judge allowed. There was no third party court appointed guardian. I think this was a very bad decision by said judge.

Ava A.,

“The kids are dependent children.”

Not in the Duggar world. It’s possible that the judge is of the same mindset.

CMT,

Is Anna ‘just as much a victim as her children’?

I think we can look at this from many different angles, but the one I see that is MOST compelling is that Anna is an adult in a society where adults have supposedly ‘more power’ over the lives of those in their care. . . .

do we look at Anna Duggar as an ‘adult’ in our society, or as ‘something else’ maybe not so graphic as HUG’s terms, but still as ‘something else’;
and if we do ‘label’ her, does it do any good to save her children from the demons of their father’s illness that may take from them their innocence and mental health in the bargain,

do we look at Anna Duggar as a ‘victim’ and therefore ‘not responsible’ for the care of her children,
in which case the state might remove them from her care and put them into the care of others who are seen as responsible adults . . . Anna, if seen as an irresponsible victim, cannot be trusted to protect the littles from the husband she apparently has ‘worshipped’ adoringly . . .

seems to me that we can’t look at any of the Duggar scene without examining it ‘totally’ as a ‘family in crisis’ even from the first moments that Michelle and Papa Duggar ‘looked away’ from their son’s attacks on his younger sisters, continuing to call him ‘precious Josh’

it’s a family disaster – three generations known, but how far back the roots of the trouble? all the way to Eden, likely, but the family disfunction of the Duggars’ failure to get help for Josh initially through family counseling has led to a ‘generational’ dysfunction involving male idolatry on the part of wives, and ‘looking away’ from the kinds of sins so evil that they can destroy a child’s mental health from abuse so vile as to take away ‘hope’ . . .

The family has been deeply troubled from the get-go. Anna is also a product of the kind of male idolatry that passes for patriarchy in some cults. Where do you START to untangle the web?

Anna’s children need protection now. If Josh is ‘released’ and Anna is in denial of his illness and takes on the role of ‘enabler’ to ‘support her husband’,

would it not be better to remove Anna’s children from that situation legally?

My apologizes if this has already been shared and I missed it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hs4R5WwRXk&t=2s

Explaining bonded choice.

Thanks to Under Much Grace blog for making me aware:

https://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2021/12/why-anna-duggar-stays-bounded-choice-of.html

dee: she is mentally incapable of making sound decisions

“Sound” decisions in her world are not the same as sound decisions in ours. Cults fog reality, everything becomes upside down, wrong is right. Raising children in that environment disturbs me greatly.

Mara R: My apologizes if this has already been shared and I missed it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hs4R5WwRXk&t=2s

Explaining bonded choice.

Mara

Thanks for sharing this video.

This video gives a good synopsis of Anna Dugger and explains her current actions.

The other thing is that I am sure Anna’s parents are similar to the Duggar’s in thoughts etc. so she can’t turn there also.

Again, a woman with 7 kids is quite vulnerable especially with her low level of education and no skills.

Just to play devil’s advocate here for the elder Duggars (and they probably are devils indeed) and then make this all about me. Sometimes life just isn’t fair. They likely tried very hard to raise their many kids the right way, and ended up teaching them the satanic ways of Gothard and Phillips. Maybe not entirely their fault. As for me- I was often too lazy or busy to train up my kids in the way they should go. I spanked them too much, but was constantly told by Christian friends that I didn’t spank them enough. I tried half-heartedly to dare to discipline but didn’t follow through: I let them watch TV and play with non-christian friends. I started them in christian schools, only to move them on to government school and eventually the godless university. So as a maybe-formerly-christian father, I’m a joke. And what did I get as a reward? 3 wonderful honest hard-working loving women and a wonderful honest hard-working loving man. I’m luckier than Lou Gehrig, and he was the luckiest man on earth. As I said, life’s not fair.

“maybe she is brainwashed.”
++++++++++++

ChuckP on Sat Dec 11, 2021 at 11:47 AM

if so, the fact that it happened is horrible, rotten, sick — i feel very bad for her, and fury towards the individuals and entities that caused it and cultivated the conditions for it.

(so sorry for the alliteration — too tired to wordsmith it away)

and if being brainwashed impacts her judgement as a parent, there are consequences.

it may be unfair, but if kids matter at all, their welfare is the primary factor in the problem of ‘what’s fair’.

Satin: And what did I get as a reward? 3 wonderful honest hard-working loving women and a wonderful honest hard-working loving man. I’m luckier than Lou Gehrig, and he was the luckiest man on earth. As I said, life’s not fair.

love this comment 🙂

FOIA has caused the police report on Jana to be released, redacted. She took no one anywhere. She was at the house when a child, clearly not hers, wandered off. At worst she was baby sitting and fell asleep. Or if the rumor is true, was not even aware the child was there when it wandered off. Or it wandered off from Anna’s warehouse apartment or Joe and Kendra’s house.

Report will not release the name of the child because it is part of a Dept. of Social Services investigation, so it could have been Josh’s, or Joe’s, or since Ben is homeschool tutor at the big house could have been Jessa’s, or any of a host of other children.

There was no car involved, no driving, no traffic around the small child when it was found. Just a child who wandered off according to the witness, last name Hart or Heart who found the kid and called police. As the only adult present, apparently, Jana received the ticket and she is fighting it.

All we know for sure is a child wandered off on Sept. 9, I believe, and on the 10th she went to courthouse to take care of the ticket (much like a traffic citation) and pled not guilty. Full reasons set to be given on Jan. 10th.

This one is likely not a big ugly thing Jana did. Either she was completely unaware she was “watching” the child, or she trusted an older kid and fell asleep, or she simply dozed off while babysitting.

Not a great thing to have happen, but not evil either.

Correction: FOIA release is of the court paperwork, not police report which has not been released I don’t believe. But the court paperwork details the accusation and witness report. It was the wandered off kid thing.

Well Dee, I stand corrected, what a stupid decision IMHO by the judge. Common sense should dictate that his wife may be incapable of watching all the children all the time. I am really surprised with his history that a 3rd party isn’t involved.

dee: And yes, the brainwashed masses out there would scream if the kids were removed.The local judge would then wring his hands, trying to make a Saul like decision.

Good point. Brainwashed masses, or at least those in their community. Local purview? Peers? The family definitely has a following. (Why churchy celebs is not a good thing. Maybe the Following needs to deconstruct their Duggarism … just sayin’. Hear tell, even some Duggars are deconstructing their Duggarism.)

(Decision like Solomon, not Saul?)

Reply options don’t work for me again 🙁

Off topic prayer request, y’all,
Western Kentucky was slammed last night – 4 tornados, death toll still climbing and damages still being assessed.
My family members and our homes are all safe and sound, but it was close enough that out-of state friends and family members are calling to check on us. One tornado went north of us, while another went just barely south of us. We just got electrical and phone service back an hour or so ago —- it’s
still coming and going some.
Towns that my husband and I frequent have suffered severe damage. FEMA teams are on route.
Mayfield and Dawson Springs were pretty much leveled, severe damage in Pembroke and Bowling Green…. Last I heard, my sister-in-law was still trying to locate one of her aunts who lives in Dawson Springs. I hope the aunt went somewhere safe.

They say that one of the tornados will probably break national records.

Oh, and the really bad tornado originated in Arkansas, the home state of the topic of this discussion …….. just sayin’…… not to make light of bad situations.

CMT,

Hello CMT,

I hear you. But Headless’ style of writing is more of a kind of hyperbole than some kind of cutting mocking, if you have read his style as much as I have. ‘Hyperbole’ is not the same thing as the kind of mocking done by some political leaders who work out on the handicapped for laughs from their base, no.

Hyperbole is usually short and sharp and nails what is going on in a way that GETS PEOPLES’ ATTENTION. Headless is very good at this form of writing.

This, of course, is my own opinion. And I am willing to accept your own opinion as your own. People do see things differently.

My own feeling is that Headless (HUG) tries to incorporate ‘hyperbole’ into the context of the discussion. I believe he does this not to denigrate Anna, so much as to high-light what has been done TO HER as she was raised in the patriarchal cult system which practices the idolatry of males.
My opinion again. Just sharing.

‘Hyperbole’ does not translate well to people who are more ‘literal’ in their interpretations of writing styles. ‘Hyperbole’ is more in line with a style of writing called ‘satire’ in that both employ exaggeration for effect. I see HUG’s writing as gifted in that genre myself, but then again, my opinion. I wouldn’t speak for anyone else. Thank you for responding.

And yet it must be awfully traumatic for children (especially that young) to be taken out of the only home they know (assuming they weren’t traumatized already in the home, which we don’t know). Aren’t courts normally pretty reluctant to do so?

Might there be a 3rd option? Things like requiring Anna to allow the children to be interviewed to detect abuse (which I believe someone said in another post that she hadn’t allowed) and educate her in what is wrong with her worldview? If it came down to losing the children vs. allowing them to be interviewed by trained abuse experts, I would guess she would do anything to keep her children with her. Personally, I think the first part of her education should have been to force her to watch all the evidence in the trial, which apparently she didn’t.
Just wondering if there could be an in-between option which could help both her and the kids.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

Thank you. And, I remember the super spreader event ……. unimaginable # of tornados in a 3 day period. I’d say you are right about being a few hours south of me, and if we are talking about the same region, you live in a gorgeous area.

I’m just going to point out a few things, most of which are not going to make things better.

* This was a federal CSAM access and possession case. I think the judge was wrong to let Josh be with his children, but I suspect his hands were tied by various Department of Justice policies regarding indicted but not convicted suspects.

* Since this was a federal case, the state would have no reason to intervene with the care of the children absent some sort of evidence of abuse. In other words, the federal judge did not have the authority to order the M children to be forensically examined and there was nothing the state could do, because there’s no evidence of abuse.

* As for Jana’s arrest, I would point out that if it was because a child wandered off while she was the only adult present, she’s still liable. It doesn’t matter if she was asleep when some other adult left, she was the adult on scene. (It’s unclear whether a child wandered off, or if the children weren’t properly seat belted in a vehicle. I’ve heard both.) Jana is 31 years old, and what has she done for most of her life? Cared for her younger siblings, and then for the children of her siblings. Maybe getting arrested and having to be bailed out will cause her to consider what she’s doing with her life. I am NOT NOT NOT saying that if she wants to care for kids, she can’t. What I AM saying is that like Anna, Jana has been hemmed in by bounded choice.

* And FINALLY, as a computer person, and someone who HAS put Linux partitions on Windows boxes, it’s not that difficult to do. The people who put out the various Linux distros are evangelists and as part of their evangelism, they try to make it as easy as possible for a Windows user to try their distro. These are “live” distros, which you download to a USB drive, and then set up your boot sequence to recognize the port the USB drive is plugged into to start a boot. Nothing happens to your Windows box, the Linux distro is on the USB drive and you can give it a test drive.

Installing a dual boot Windows/Linux configuration is ridiculously easy these days. Especially if you have something like an HP laptop, because the Linux distro is more likely to be configured out of box to recognize HP video and audio cards. Of course you have to make sure you have enough space on your drive, but Windows makes it easier than ever before to consolidate space.

Once you have the dual boot installed, the only way someone could tell it was on there is if they rebooted the box and at the boot prompt had to select Windows or Linux. I would bet money that Josh never let anyone see him reboot his computer.

As for the assertion that someone hacked into his laptop and put the CSAM there, I find that difficult to believe. While engineers can reboot a server at a distance (I facilitate people doing that every day at work), it’s something that has to be set up with software. You just can’t remotely hack your way into an HP box, set it to reboot and then (from a distance) automagically get the computer to boot into Linux under normal circumstances. You’d need particular software to be able to run the boot prompt remotely and this is not something a casual hacker is going to have. Not only that, I suspect that low level operating system logging would note such intrusions. Also, while your average Windows can have certain protocols enabled (e.g. Remote Desktop Connection) or installing specialty remote access client software, just out of the box, the average user isn’t going to do this. (Apparently you can also set up the Chrome browser to access the Chrome browser on another computer, but you have to configure it on both sides and it’s going to require a password.)

Josh’s laptop was on a WiFi. Even if someone were able to use the WiFi to get in, which would involve hacking the WiFi (unless it was wide open to the world and I did not hear that from the trial), the hacker might just end up on the Windows side of the box. And if Josh had the Windows side password protected, that’d be a SECOND password to go through. And guess what? The CSAM was NOT on the Windows side and was in fact invisible to the Windows operating system and to the Covenant Eyes monitoring software. That said, there is no good way to move data or software directly from the Windows O/S to the Linux O/S because each O/S and its file system is generally invisible to each other. That’s why Josh was toggling back and forth between Windows and Linux, which you CAN do and which was apparently demonstrated during the trial. It makes no sense to me that a “hacker” would have downloaded the CSAM using a Tor browser on the Linux side and left it where it would not be noticed. If someone was trying to get Josh in trouble, why wouldn’t they download it to the Windows side?

I realize I’ve gotten a whole LOT into the weeds here. As in tl;rdr (too long, really don’t read). I just considered the testimony of the “experts” on Josh Duggar’s side to be ridiculous. The jury apparently thought so as well. Josh was knowledgeable to get a Linux partition and the Tor browser set up. But apparently he couldn’t seem to spoof his WiFI IP address, which led to his arrest.

Now I have a headache. Too much thinking for a Saturday night.

I’ve heard rumors on podcasts and seen evidence in family members’ statements about splinters and disagreements among the Duggar siblings, and also that several of the boys are angry at their father for lying on the stand. I remember when I used to watch the show thinking that the emotional connections between the siblings was lacking, and I realized what I was seeing was a suppression of emotions and an inability to truly know themselves because they’ve always been told what to think. I’m grateful that some of them are waking up, but how very painful.

Former CLC’er: and also that several of the boys are angry at their father for lying on the stand

This would be interesting to read.
Do you have any links?

Ava Aaronson: even some Duggars are deconstructing

Jesus and St Paul said YOU decide what’s good, and on what basis. Not the channels. Did any christians think the TV show was queer to start with?

Wild Honey: Yes.

Whether you call it “brainwashed” or “groomed” or “trained,” Anna has not been encouraged to act as an adult who makes adult-type decisions and then takes responsibility for said decisions.This is tragic for her.I don’t think there are easy answers for how to “help” her.

From what I understand, Anna was born and raised in the same kind of environment, and in the same belief system as the Duggar children. She was taught from birth that the husband is most important, no matter what…… and children rank a distant second place. I don’t believe the is any way to “help” her……. unless and until she decides to take a stand and help herself.
With a father who is a convicted felon, potentially staring at a lengthy federal prison sentence, and an apparently helpless mother….. both drenched in IBLP?……. Just my opinion, but I think the children would be better off, in the long haul, under someone else’s care in a different environment.

I cannot get quote, reply with quote, or link to work. May be TWW or my computer connection or operator error, but bear with me here:

I did a quick google search for the particulars on Jana. I found a livestream called Without a Crystal Ball from last Friday (?). Towards the end you can see the actual paperwork from the court regarding Jana. There was no car involved. Not a failure to restrain in a vehicle. Wandering child.

We are not likely to hear her side of the story before January. As a former school employee, church worker, foster parent, adoptive parent, child care provider, and parent, I can tell you this much:

If she knew she was sitting and fell asleep, she may be legally culpable IF she failed to exercise reasonable prudence. If she locked the doors, perhaps with child locks, and took a nap after a toddler went down for nap and it woke before her and escaped (it happens!) she is not likely to be found guilty. If she failed to take reasonable precautions, yes.

If she knew she was ranking adult and left the child with an older minor, such as a teen as sitter, again it will depend on whether or not the court considers that reasonable. If the teen had done well sitting before, Jana likely would not be found guilty. If not, maybe. Depends on the age of the teen, its experience with small children, etc.

If another adult had charge of the child and either left without Jana agreeing to sit, or left the child with older kids assuming Jana would be responsible, Jana is not likely to be found guilty. Think of like this: if you are a childless adult sharing an apartment with roommates with kids and your neighbors have kids, and you are in your room napping this afternoon when some of those neighbors or roommates leave without your knowledge and leave small children behind, would you be culpable? Yes as to receipt of the ticket in Arkansas, not likely to be held culpable at court.

I can say this much: I seriously doubt there would be a DHS investigation if Jana is the one being eyed as an ongoing danger to the child. Which leads me to suspect it could have been one of Josh’s kids. If as rumors say during that time frame Anna was mostly living with Josh and various relatives minded the kids, including her brother, it is more likely DHS is concerned the PARENT is not exercising reasonable and prudent care.

DHS is going to consider family preservation as vital with Anna and Josh’s kids, if possible. Arkansas may force that forensic exam of the kids now, and Anna may have to take parenting classes and be closely supervised for a while. Placing the kids with JB and M may be considered. I hope not. I would not be surprised if she quickly takes the kids to her folks, or to Texas. Also would not be surprised if she leaves the kids there in order to remain in Ark. and visit Josh. At any rate, being still under JB’s financial thumb is a dangerous place for Anna and the kids. They need our prayers. And Jana deserves for us to be patient for all the truth before we tar and feather her in the heat of our disgust for Josh.

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

Good points all.

A trial is attorneys and their “experts”, putting on a show for the jury, who the lawyers may consider to be just a bunch of citizen rubes. Moreover, if it didn’t work the first trial, there are always appeals to refine their “show”.

With the Duggars, everything is a show. Courtroom drama and a high profile court case is right up their alley.

Most outrageous and pathetic is that the whole Duggar schtick is ALWAYS about the misuse of children. From the get go. In the name of Jesus. Sick. Evil. Deeply evil.

Do any of the legions of preachers and teachers and theologians address this? Absolutely not. Once again the name brands come up short and useless about what really matters.

Then there’s TWW, addressing what matters, in the name of Jesus, sans the teacher, preacher, theologian cred.

How many teachers, preachers, and theologians will be in Heaven? Are these the teeth gnasher grinders that Jesus spoke of? Time will tell.

dee: Apparently, members of her (biological) family asked her to leave him and offered to help. She has rejected two sensible offers from what I have read.

Looks like she isn’t just continuing to drink the Kool-aide, she is straight up baptized in it.
Perhaps for those of us who believe in the power of prayer, we could try praying that her eyes would be open to the poison that the Kool-aide is so that she can start seeing straight enough to accept those offers for help.
The detoxing process can be long and grueling, something that outsiders can lose patience with quickly.

dee:
readingalong,

There is a great 4th option. Two members of her bio family asked her to leave him and offered to help. I think the next generation of these cult kids are starting to rebel and help one another.

This does match the experience of the Massachusetts Puritans. The second most common subject in their journals (after navel-gazing sin-sniffing) was how to raise their children in the Faith, how the next generation was becoming apostate and lukewarm instead of On Fire like their parents.

After enough generations, the descendants of the Strict Godly Puritans ended up as Unitarian Universalists or actual Nones, with or without lip-service identification to the Faith of their Fathers.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

🙂 good one, Headless

reminds me of THIS story:

“Excuse me Sir. My dog and I have been on this road all day and are very hot and thirsty. Would it be okay if we took a much needed rest under your shady tree?”
“Of course”, the other man replied. “There’s some cold water under the tree too. So please come in and help yourselves.”

The old man asks: “Are you inviting my dog too, because I won’t come in without him. In fact, that’s why I chose not to go to Heaven because I was told dogs are not allowed.”
The man smiled and said, “Welcome to Heaven, and bring your dog!”
The old man exclaimed, “You mean this is Heaven? And dogs are allowed? How come that fellow down the road said they weren’t?”
“That was the Devil and he gets all the souls who are willing to give up a life long companion for a few small comforts. Those who choose that route soon find out their mistake but it’s too late. The dogs always find their way here and the fickle people who abandoned them stay in Hell, for eternity.”
“You see my friend, GOD would not allow dogs to be banned from Heaven. After all, He created them to be man’s companions in life, so He would never separate them in death.”

https://www.schnauzers-rule.com/man-dog-heaven.html

dee,

Thanks for asking about the children. They all reacted quite differently. The oldest 2 blamed our daughter for the breakup of the family for a while. Now they are very supportive of her
The middle 4 had suicidal thoughts quite often. Two of them escaped as soon as they could after they turned 18 and are doing Ok. The 19 year old is not doing well, and is acting out pretty badly. The 13 and 17 year olds are still at home. They are very relieved that Dad is gone.
They all need therapy, but doubt if they will get it..
On a happy note, 10 years ago our daughter urged the then 19 year old daughter to go to college instead of being a SAHD. This May she will be graduating from nursing school.

Leslie: Our daughter lived with this for almost 30 years before she got out. Obviously it is not easy to get out even with support.

I’m so sorry that this happened in your family, and relieved that your daughter was able to get out. I hope that everyone will heal, although that will take much time and work. The younger generation might eventually find therapy, but meanwhile they have compassion and freedom.

If I’m understanding the story, the things that helped your daughter are precisely the things that her church did not want her to have: some higher education, scholarship funds to resume college, loving relatives who saw what was happening and stood by her, a means to divorce, and access to welfare payments to see her through a difficult transition. Good for her, for finding her way out.

Leslie: Unless there is someone to counteract the Bill Gothard/ ATI /IBLP/ Doug Phillips Vision Forum teachings , there is a very limited possibility of a way out for the women and children enslaved by this cult.

Christendom should have condemned Gothard’s teachings when multiple sexual abuse allegations against him hit the news a few years ago. Never married, he never actually practiced personally what he preached. Gothard and IBLP have been part of the Christian Industrial Complex with a successful gimmick which benefited them but not the families drawn into their snare. It’s as if the bad press about Gothard has drawn more men to his “basic life principles” which have brought physical, emotional and spiritual abuse into so many families.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/01/06/new-charges-allege-religious-leader-who-has-ties-to-the-duggars-sexually-abused-women/

Abigail: I have always been disgusted by Jim Bob Duggar. I think in a sick way so many children somehow validates his warped sense of virility.

When news of Jim Bob’s 19th notch on his belt hit the news, my daughter’s friend commented “That’s just sick and wrong!”

Ava Aaronson: Children are violated under their very noses by their own BFFs. They don’t care.

Another example of that was the Paul Pressler sex abuse scandal in the SBC. Judge Pressler was champion of SBC’s Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence. During the height of the CR, allegations came forth about Pressler abusing boys. Paige Patterson, co-leader of the CR, evidently turned away from the news … Pressler was obviously too big to fail. Heck, the bad-boy judge even got his own stain glass window in Patterson’s CR hall of shame at Southwestern Seminary (which has been dismantled). Yep, church history has recorded many examples of “leaders” ignoring bad-boy activity in their midst for the good of one movement or another (another example often the subject of TWW blogs = Mahaney and T4G/New Calvinism … he was just too important to the movement at that time).

Michelle Duggar’s 1000 yard stare of dissociation:

https://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2021/12/michelle-duggars-thousand-yard-stare-of.html

Does Anna D. have the same stare?

Jeffrey Chalmers,

So, as this post has evolved, especially bringing in Bill Gothard, has made me reflect on my past and double check my memory… Just found on Amazon, or Ebay, the “notebook” that the people pushing the “Institute of Basic life Conflicts” flashed after attended their intense course…. More bad memories…. I also looked up, and some estimates place over 250,000 people attended these seminars in just LA area alone…

Sigh… and not just Gothard, but his brother, involved in it all, sound like perverts.. double sigh….
I am so sick of evangelicalism/fundamentalism having all these skeletons…
Or, and Julie Roys recently posted that some administrator at Masters U. has been charged with some financial Felonies associated with his previous job in publics schools.. …. This cess pool stuff just does not stop….

Jeffrey Chalmers: I remember in the late 1970’s major pressure from people at my Evangelical Free Church in the San Fransisco Bay area to attend the SIGNIFICANTLY long courses, and pay the bucks, to attend the “Institutes of basic life …” taught by Bill Gothard outfit.. it seemed cultic

In 1985 Steve Taylor wrote a song about Got Hard and IBLP — “I MANIPULATE”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKlZ7U67Uio

And Got Hard’s triple-umbrella diagram is a common repeating background over at Telltale Atheist channel on YouTube.

Muff Potter: Boba Fett (Mahaney)?!
Where?!

Not Boba Fett.
Boba Fett – bounty hunter turned Tatooine’s organized crime boss – has more class than that.
Think “Captain Picard’s Evil Twin Chuckles”.

Jeffrey Chalmers: This cess pool stuff just does not stop….

The one man rule is neither biblical nor a Jesus model nor historically successful.

Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.

The church cesspool stuff will not end until the one man rule ends.

Idolatry.

Max: Never married, he never actually practiced personally what he preached.

Never-married in and of itself is not automatically a deal-breaker. A single can look at marriage and childbearing relationships from an outside perspective.

But Got Hard in his arrogance proclaimed HIS teachings on the subject the Only True Way from the lips of God Himself. Got Hard’s Ego got in the way of his perspective and things went seriously sour.

It’s as if the bad press about Gothard has drawn more men to his “basic life principles” which have brought physical, emotional and spiritual abuse into so many families.

Could be more than “as if” — IBLP’s teachings WOULD attract Hypermasculine Control Freak Egomaniacs and Abusers (including violent ones), as it backs up and commands everything they wanted to do anyway with literally Cosmic Authority. Do What Thou Wilt (that is normally forbidden) with Divine Authority.

dee,

I definitely get what you’re saying. I’m just not sure there’s any better option. The foster system, where they are likely to be separated, abused, and batted from place to place? Jim Bob and Michelle‘a house? Separating them from the only home they’ve ever known to go be with strangers would cause trauma, too. Best-case scenario is Anna starts to see clearly and gets the heck out of that cult.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Just my opinion, but I think the children would be better off, in the long haul, under someone else’s care in a different environment.

I agree Nancy, in my neck of the country (Southern Calif.), those kids would have been removed by CPS (child protective services) months ago.

Jeffrey Chalmers: D$mn the victims, it also about the message/doctrine, no matter what the collateral damage is!

Sad but true. Anna’s brother tried to give her a way out, a while back.

It’s a bit like that cartoon about the drowning man who waves off several rescuers, telling them that God will come to his aid. When the man gets to heaven, he complains that God didn’t answer his prayers. And God says, “I sent you a rowboat, a motorboat, and a helicopter. What more did you expect?”

This particular mentallity runs deep and not just among fundamentalist evangelicals. Where I live yes, a few Baptist, most of the Pentecostal, some of the Mennonites follow the whole patriarchy women in skirts papa rules thing. But so do many of RCC. Apparently they have their offshoots too. Not really so different from Hauge Lutherans either.

Headless Unicorn Guy: In 1985 Steve Taylor wrote a song about Got Hard and IBLP — “I MANIPULATE”:

I remember the song. Didn’t know that it was specifically about Gothard and IBLP.

poor Jana Duggar who seems like a good person who loves her family and serves them lovingly,
but her life seems devoted to the world of her parents and her brothers and sisters and she reminds one of the sad case of the two sisters in a patriarchal family called the Botkins, Elizabeth and Anna Sophia …..

I hope these young women have a CHANCE at a life of their own, but patriarchy seems so totally focused on ‘male idolatry’ that the futures of these young women don’t seem to promise much for their personal happiness.

It is very sad that Jana was arrested under such circumstances. But there it is, the reality of what happened. Can’t help having hope that she ‘escapes’ from the prison of patriarchy, but I never thought of her as going from her patriarchal home to a jail, no. Not that. God have mercy.

Friend:
linda,

And they’ll know we are Christians by our dress codes,
By our dress codes,
Yes, they’ll know we are Christians by our dress codes.

Actually, I filked that one into two versions that scan better:

“And they’ll know we are Christians ’cause we’re Smug…”

“And they’ll know we are Christians by our Hate…”

This is one book that elaborates on Bill Gothard’s hypocrisy and his hiding his sin:

https://www.amazon.com/Matter-Basic-Principles-Gothard-Christian/dp/0974252808

“Josh Duggar’s father Jim Bob loses Arkansas state Senate primary after son’s guilty verdict in child porn case”

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/jim-bob-duggar-loses-arkansas-state-senate-primary

Max: Jim Bob loses Arkansas

And it wasn’t even close. That’s a relief. Not all of Arkansas is crazy.

Steve240: parents were impressed with the results he generated in teens.

How could parents tell the results were good?

I know some (former) kids who had perfect manners, cheerful smiles, and excellent eye contact beaten into them. They’re productive adults, and yet not one of them will ever be whole.

Max: Arkansas may very well have the greatest concentration of common sense on the planet.

All the more reason for them to reject the fundagelical nonsense spouted from pulpits in the region. Over time they will.

Friend: Steve240: parents were impressed with the results he generated in teens.

How could parents tell the results were good?

I know some (former) kids who had perfect manners, cheerful smiles, and excellent eye contact beaten into them. They’re productive adults, and yet not one of them will ever be whole.

It has been a little while since I read the book but as I recall the author used phrases like not asking the denomination of firemen when your house is on fire.

As the author of the book wrote, the “results” of their teenagers attending Gothard seminars apparently changed them from being the rebellious teenagers to apparently more obedient children. This would include Gothard teaching the “umbrella of protection.” Don’t forget that this was the late 60’s/early 70’s and the carryover from the hippie movement.

It may have been temporary external changes vs. hear changes but this is what the author reported why parents didn’t seem to object to Gothard. As the book points out, Gothard has added a lot of teaching that isn’t the bible similar to what Jesus stated as teaching as doctrine the precepts of man.

You can purchase the Kindle version of this book pretty cheaply on Amazon or even find a used copy somewhere that is low in cost.

Friend: I know some (former) kids who had perfect manners, cheerful smiles, and excellent eye contact beaten into them. They’re productive adults, and yet not one of them will ever be whole.

High-functioning PTSD?

A “Richard Cory” from the poem, Perfect in every way externally, all the damage hidden inside until one day you hear news of their suicide?

Headless Unicorn Guy: High-functioning PTSD?

Post Traumatic Stressed Duggar