“For every complex problem, there’s a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” H.L. Mencken
My mother still hasn’t turned the corner and so I stayed later than usual. I’m a bit tired and hope my reasoning on this is understandable.
On November 9, 2021, The Gospel Coalition posted a simplistic view on the ‘cure’ for deconstruction: 4 Causes of Deconstruction by Joshua Ryan Butler. I took a look at Redemption Church Tempe which he pastors. When I find a treatise on church discipline within one click of going to a church website, I become concerned. It might seem, to a casual inquirer of the church, that discipline is applied joyfully and often. There is another view I have of church discipline within the Neo Reformed crowd. It often appears to be a simple way to make someone do what the church leadership wants, be it right or wrong.
One only has to look at Todd Wilhelm’s story to understand the simplistic nature of this discipline. That view shows up in his four simple reasons for deconstructing. This author also has the simple cure for the destructive type of deconstruction which he diagnoses in as few words as possible. I found him to be shallow and somewhat out of touch with reality but perhaps that’s a bit too harsh.
Please note that the author uses the word “deconstruction” to mean that a person is walking away from the faith.
1. The person who ‘deconstructed’ did so due to church hurt.
The author claims:
Many who deconstruct have been wounded by abusive or manipulative church leaders or generally unhealthy church cultures.
The author points to the following problems.
You grew up under the influence of leaders like Ravi Zacharias, Carl Lentz, or Mark Driscoll—whose teaching and charisma powerfully inspired you and formatively shaped you—but then the curtain got pulled back. The betrayal can make the whole thing look like a sham. The pain can be excruciating and disorienting.
The hurting person needs to simply lament.
You don’t need to ignore the church’s problems to protect its reputation.
Instead, bring the problems boldly to God—like David did—and encounter a deeper intimacy with him as you’re honest about your wounds. Deconstruction bypasses this deeper healing. It’s a shortcut that internalizes grief rather than bringing it before God.
He goes on to say that no community is perfect. The solution is easy peasy. Yikes!
Diagnosis: church hurt
Cure: grief and lament
My observation:
I doubt this individual has met a person who has been sexually molested in the church. Some folks have been molested as children. Where does he express an understanding of such pain? Where does he discuss the need for the church to walk beside the individual, offering counseling and guidance? Butler’s lack of compassion in this area is concerning. TWW started EChurch for people who have been so wounded by the church they can’t even walk into a church building without experiencing PTSD. The process towards healing may be years long and the author can be darn sure that they are lamenting but not in the easy, curative way that he imagines. Does he realize that many people may not heal for decades or even ever? They don’t reject the faith easily. and there is no easy answer to their pain. To say they must simply lament is almost painfully glib.
2. People ‘deconstruct’ due to poor teaching.
I always get worried when I hear this as a problem. It usually leads to “If you listened to me, this wouldn’t have happened.” And I was right. TGC has the solution.
But if the problem is bad teaching, the solution is good teaching. There are great resources out there (such as TGC’s recent book, Before You Lose Your Faith, and video series “Gen Z’s Questions About Christianity”) and many wise pastors are walking patiently with those who wrestle with hard questions. Good teaching and good teachers exist.
…We need to take good teaching seriously. Our refrain should be, You have heard it said, but Jesus says. . . . I’ve written books on hell, judgment, holy war, sacrifice, wrath, and atonement, and I’m writing one on sex and gender. I’m often trying to confront popular caricatures of the Christian faith and replace them with a healthy, biblical, historic understanding. That’s one of TGC’s goals, too.
This is the “stupid sheep” explanation. It is assumed that the average churchgoer, who becomes upset and begins to deconstruct, has no idea that there are good books at TGC and by this pastor which will make all things right if they read them.
It’s easy peasy.
Diagnosis: bad teaching
Cure: good teaching
My observation
I hate the “stupid sheep” theory. We live in the information age. The average person knows where to go to get good information. Even I knew that when I went through my own time of deconstructing and reconstructing. There are a gazillion books out there. Some are good, some are not so good and that includes TGC books. Most people that I know, who walk away from the faith, know exactly why they are doing so and many of them are more well-read than I am.
Once again, the solution offered is simplistic. The “stupid sheep” theory is downright shallow and needs to be revisited.
3. People deconstruct because they have a desire to sin.
This is the “guy wants to have sex with girls or guys” explanation.
I minister in a college town (go ASU Sun Devils) where students regularly deconstruct when they’ve started sleeping with their girlfriend or boyfriend. Convenient timing. Others deconstruct while harboring an addiction (drugs, alcohol, porn), to release their guilt.
He has an easy peasy solution, again.
Diagnosis: desire to sin
Cure: confession and repentance
My observation:
I have a dirty little secret for the author. There are plenty of “good Christian boys and girls” who are sleeping around, using drugs, viewing porn, etc. One of my young family members clued me into what gives in the Christian dating scene these days and it isn’t pretty. The new axiom is “I can believe and still do what. they want.”
What’s even more amusing is that they attend church, help lead singles groups, or are the oft-maligned youth pastor. One pastor of a large church told me that it is impossible to find a single person to lead a group who isn’t living with their girlfriend or boyfriend. Many churches turn a blind eye to this issue and, instead, find it easier to discipline the older people in the congregation. Besides, we don’t want to run away the next generation now, would we?
4. The person deconstructs for “street cred.”
In other words, they do it because it is hip???
There’s influence to be had, platforms to be built, and money to be made. It gets Rob Bell on Oprah, bolsters Glennon Doyle’s book sales, and lets Rhett & Linkhost Nacho Libre and Harry Potter on their popular YouTube channel.
A wave of #exvangelical podcasters and TikTok stars are following in the wake, with a whole cottage industry to welcome and cheer them on. There’s clout in distancing oneself from “outdated” views of sex and gender, an “obscure” Bible with talking snakes and forbidden shellfish, and “offensive” doctrines like wrath and hell.
The author claims he is not trying to say he knows the hearts of these ‘deconstructees.’ (Is that a word?)
I’m simply observing that social pressure is a powerful carrot on the stick—and not just for celebrities.
He claims this is due simply to a hostile culture that doesn’t like Christians. So many Christians simply do what? Fake it to get by? But…does that mean that they have deconstructed?
The cultural hostility is real. Whether in progressive urban centers (like my hometown of Portland), or university environments (like where I currently live), Christians are decidedly not the cool kids. It’s hard to be the awkward one sitting alone at lunch. Many of us feel the social pressure—and the release valve is a simple Instagram post away.
The “cure” here is the crucifixion of your image. The gospel calls you to mortify your love of influence and prestige—put it to death. Jesus warns of those who love “the glory that comes from man” more than “the glory that comes from God” (John 12:43). It’s not wrong to want love and affirmation; it’s just wrong to want it more from your fickle friends than your faithful God.
His cure? Simple…
Mortify your desire for street cred in order to experience union with God.
Diagnosis: street cred
Cure: crucifixion of image
Easy Peasy
My observation?
This makes little sense to me. Do ‘Christians’ actually pretend they are something they are not for street cred? If that is the case, have they deconstructed, or are they under so much pressure that they go on the down-low? I spent several years lurking on ExChristian.net. Those folks found their way to that website to find support for their choice not to follow the Christian faith. I don’t remember any of them stating that they were feeling pressure from the ‘godless’ culture to change their beliefs to be “cool.’ Most of them would say that the pressure they experienced came from the Christian population like from their churches and families. Many of these folks were rejected by those kindly Christian folks…Frankly, this is a derogatory assessment from the author who appears to be determined to prove that people who deconstruct seem to do so to make their lives easy.
In summation
The author continues on his path in his closing statement.
It’s also worth recognizing: people’s real motives will often be different from their stated motives. I’ve had people come to me “with big questions about God,” only to later discover they were feeling social pressure at school or having an affair at the office.
He is determined to prove that those who deconstruct do so for simple reasons.
- They deconstruct to make their lives easier.
- They want to do drugs, have sex, and whatever.
- They are too stupid to find answers to their questions.
- The author has written several books that will surely help those who are deconstructing.
- He downplays the pain that many people who leave the church due to serious abuse.
- He overlooks the long-term, intense pain of sexual molestation.
- His solutions are painfully shallow.
Finally, I can’t say this enough. People don’t need to leave the faith to sin. There is plenty of sin going on in the church today, whether or not the author notices. It isn’t onlu going on in the pews. Pastors have had plenty of exposure in this area. Look at all those SBC pastors who molested children. Read a few posts here.
In the end, his solutions are too easy peasy which means he’s missing a whole bunch of issues. That, Lord willing, will be the subject of my next post on the matter. In the meantime, Todd is working on another post on Sovereign Grace weirdness.
This is one of my favorite Christmas songs. The second verse says something that I, at times, have said.
And in despair, I bowed my head. “There is no peace on earth I said.
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1st?!
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Life must be so nice in their little boxes with convenient shelves for everything – except it doesn’t account for the messy reality that people actually live in.
Fortunately God is infinite and is able to walk with everyone along the path they are on. Which, incidently, does not fit in the convenient little boxes built by those that have everything figured out already.
I do think that if it is truly the pleasures of this world that are leading someone to “rethink” their faith, then repentance is probably the answer.
However, what if someone is trying to drown their abuse in some pleasure of the world? All of a sudden what looks so simple from the outside is no longer so simple after all.
There is no path that magically works for everyone, but there is one God who loves everyone and is able to meet each of us where we are and walk along the path with us – if we aren’t being tripped up by the many burdens put on us by the pharisees of today that is.
Bad religion is more than a small part of what is leading folks to “deconstruct”. I think a prime example of that is the emergence of what is beginning to look like an extreme right-wing pseudo-religious political cult. The big question is what is driving the emergence of that?
Ecclesiates states that there is nothing new under the sun. But that doesn’t answer the question.
What on earth is going on in this time?
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From the original post – “I have a dirty little secret for the author.”
Oh Mylanta! This brings back memories. Prior to meeting Mr Honey, while in college I dated a member of a Christian fraternity who attended and served in a local church. It was, frankly, an emotionally abusive relationship, but that aside, the stories he told of some of the goings on of the Christian frat and sorority members raised my eyebrows. And I am a product of public school, not that easily shocked. He frankly turned me off to dating practicing Christians for a long time.
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Then there is the constant stream of people behaving badly (like this story illustrates) which is certainly contributing to folks questioning christianity:
https://okmagazine.com/p/josh-duggar-computer-contents-child-pornography-trial/
The way some very visible parts of Christianity is being taught and practiced by leaders demands some deconstruction.
I wonder how much less deconstruction might be going on if more of the highly visible “leaders” were to behave in a manner that exemplifies how a Christian should live?
I mean, how long is the list of highly visible leaders that we have seen living NOT like Christians in the last decade? 20 at least. More? Probably.
Add to that the plethora of “less” visible leaders as represented by the database of molesters put together by the reporters in Houston. That number is dwarfed by all the leaders doing the same thing that aren’t in that database because they either haven’t been reported on, or they haven’t been caught.
No wonder so many are deconstructing their faith.
The problem isn’t deconstruction. The problem is abhorrent behavior by so called “Christian” leaders.
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The Gospel Coalition’s Apparent Cure for Deconstruction: “STOP IT!”
+++++++++++
oh, pipe down.
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“the author uses the word “deconstruction” to mean that a person is walking away from the faith.”
++++++++++++++
good grief, Joshua Ryan Butler, people are just disagreeing with what you think about ‘the faith’. that is all.
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TGC also put this out recently
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/love-basis-church-reform/
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TGC follows the wisdom of Dr. Switzer in his “stop it” approach to effecting change:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0lr63y4Mw
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Peer pressure!
Rachel Held Evans once addressed the accusation that Christians were walking away from their faith through peer pressure by stating that her peer group were raised in the evangelical sub-culture.
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When I first read the ‘street cred’ explanation it cracked me up all day. It’s so 80’s. Then I realised that some of these guys are projecting the things they were warned about when they were teenagers, the things that would pull them away from Christ.
The biggest reasons I’ve come across for people deconstructing are that they are not sure if the faith is true, for a variety of reasons, or they are not sure the God depicted by the faith community they’re part of is good.
What I fail to see in any of these articles from TGC or anyone like them is any actual listening to individuals. They ‘listen’ to lecture, preach or write articles telling people they’ve spoken to those who are deconstructing. They don’t listen to actually hear what people are really saying.
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Here is an ironic quote from that post:
It is ironic because the foundational truths common through time don’t look very reformed, and the reformed appear to believe that those who leave evangelicalism or the reformed faith are deconstructing in in a bad way when they discover those ancient foundational truths.
I wonder if the author of that article knows that his quote here aligns with what the 5th century St Vincent of Lerins taught:
That’s not a bad goal, but it will lead people away from the gospelly coalition version of Christianity.
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Do you remember the first time you learned that a reverred Christian leader was violating minors, or stealing money from the church, or bullying with misuse of power to get his/her way?
Did all of the Scriptures about false shepherds come alive and take on new meaning?
The Bible is not shy about these types, although you probably have to read it for yourself since Christian leaders typically don’t teach those Bible passages.
False leaders presiding in church is the elephant in the room. In church.
Behold deconstruction. 1. See the reality. (The person calling you to holiness may be a joke.) 2. Read the Bible’s affirmation of that reality. 3. And Jesus (“Woe unto you religious elite”) becomes more real.
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This is another example of the typical reaction to protect the institutional church without calling out and addressing the sinful contributions of church leaders.
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*************
STOP PRESS
*************
New Zealand spinner Ajaz Patel has become only the third bowler in the history of Test Cricket to take all 10 wickets in a single innings, taking 10-119 as the Kiwis bowled India out for 325 in Mumbai. The hosts had the last laugh on day 2, though, reducing New Zealand to 58-8 in reply.
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Diagnosis: church hurt
Cure: grief and lament
———
but be very, very careful not to grieve and lament too visibly or too publicly (nay, make that simply “don’t grieve and lament visibly or publicly”).
and whatever you do , be sure not to adopt a prophetic stance of shining light on the problems that caused the grief and hurt.
——
I agree, Dee. The solutions are quite shallow. Surely TGC can do better than this.
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I wonder whether it’s significant that he hasn’t noticed the problem of ‘megachurch pastors leaving the ministry because the pay and working conditions aren’t good enough’.
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dee,
It’s easy for me to keep my head down, but if a major public figure like Josh said he moderately to fairly disbelieved this or that lack of nuance that the heavies are pushing (and these things mount up on those in ministry like he was), he would face endless obstacles. It’s simpler to signal a complete break then people will make show of giving up. I know he still gets hassle, but a different kind. He has wisely deprived the goons of ground to appeal. Argumentative types hesistate around me because they can’t place me. I don’t press their buttons, so they can’t press mine – hooray! Meantime Josh and I can explore what we want how we want, the way God (long ago) intended everyone to.
This is related to package dealing which is the opposite of deconstruction, and occurs in false dichotomies, when people say A, therefore B plus C plus the kitchen sink; if you disagree with the latter three you aren’t allowed A.
{ Ted’s quote comes in here }
I believe in cafeteria Christianity: eat everything on the menu, but not all at once: keep coming back!
I believe in shopping list prayer without price (Is 55), for just quality of government (not ad hominem) in our countries, for the needs of the saints, for the fruitfulness of all of the ministries of all of the saints, etc.
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And begging God that He will turn back the plague!
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We will do better than we have done if we stop taking notice of the pretend face value. And if we stop trying to react like the dialectic to the dialectic. Jesus repeatedly, showed how irrelevant the actions of his claimed opponents were.
The very evangelical subculture told us human gifts are wrong. Then it told us divine gifts are wrong (except for the elite). God’s true idea is to combine the human and divine gifts every time. That’s why and when they are good. We shall need the divine gifts for our providential persevereance and we shall need them combined with the human.
Common sense is hard work, from morning to night. It is not obvious and it is hard won, by independent individuals by their own competency and their own priesthood.
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Butler wrote: “ . I’ve written books on hell, judgment, holy war, sacrifice, wrath, and atonement, and I’m writing one on sex and gender. I’m often trying to confront popular caricatures of the Christian faith and replace them with a healthy, biblical, historic understanding. ”
Ha! Is this a sales pitch? Is he trying to get hurting pew peons to buy his books and thicken his wallet?
No matter. If Butler’s books are as theologically deep as his post on deconstruction, I’ll just stick with the Bible stories book my parents gave me when I was a child.
I read his post several days ago….. twice. I was floored by the lukewarm shallowness and obvious lack of concern —- especially with all of the things that have been exposed concerning the RC and the SBC in recent years.
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Ken F ( aka Tweed),
If only they had listened to his advice, there would have been no need for the Reformation
– “But the Church of Christ, the careful and watchful guardian of the doctrines deposited in her charge, never changes anything in them, never diminishes, never adds, does not cut off what is necessary, does not add what is superfluous, does not lose her own, does not appropriate what is another’s, but while dealing faithfully and judiciously with ancient doctrine, keeps this one object carefully in view,—if there be anything which antiquity has left shapeless and rudimentary, to fashion and polish it, if anything already reduced to shape and developed, to consolidate and strengthen it, if any already ratified and defined, to keep and guard it.” (Commonitory).
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On this we agree. The Eastern Orthodox also agree on this point because hey never went through the excess of things like insulgences and inquisitions – they had other problems, such as trying to survive the crusaders. They claim they never needed a reformation because they never departed from the true faith. EOs claim RCs are the original protestants, and the protestant reformation is the natural fruit of the the bishop of Rome splitting from the other patriarchs. But RCs say it was the the other patriarchs who caused the great schism by splitting from Rome. Institutional Christianity across the world right now is quite a mess, with every group saying they have the true faith that everyone else should embrace. I don’t know what authentic Christianity should be, or how much it matters.
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I protested Josh Butler in front of Redemption Tempe on November 14. (I wasn’t protesting the church per se, but their leader.) Unlike some people (*cough* Mark Driscoll *cough*) he actually came out to talk to me. As I was wearing my GoPro, I have video of the discussion.
I’m not going to do a blow by blow, but just say that when I get onto a thing, I tend to hold on tight. (I suspect this comes from being on the autism spectrum.) I was furious about his article and ESPECIALLY his point 1. I was all over him about child sexual abuse and I got the real strong feeling that he just expected survivors to go back to church and work it out there. I wasn’t having any of it and just kept hammering away. Nicely.
What I wish I had said at the time to Josh Butler is that he thinks the church can never be wrong, and thus any complaint against the church is always wrong.
I don’t know that I was “successful” in getting my point across, but I do know that by Monday November 15 he’d blocked me on Twitter. So I guess he didn’t want to see me rant about him and his inability to see the harm that his article caused. Blergh.
I may go back out there, but if I do, I’m going to park in a different place, rather than the sketchy parking lot of the T-Mobile near the freeway. Maybe across the street at the Rio Salado College location would be better.
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TGC is so out of touch with the average Christians. Even Reformed Christians. I am Reformed. I can honestly say I don’t ever remember reading a TGC article. It is an echo chamber. They stopped relating to people in the pew a long time ago. If they ever did. There is something about getting letters behind your name that makes most of them stop listening to anyone without those letter. I told one of the eminent scholars I went to church with to be careful. The Apostle Paul warned a long time ago “knowledge puffs up, but love builds up “. He looked at me with the most confusing look. I could see it was out of his being to understand. The world he lived in made it impossible for him to comprehend.
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Proffy,
Thank you for this article. I did read it. Look what happened to me. I, along with others, tried to reform a church and we were kicked to the curb called liars, and threatened with lawsuits.
I do love the church and my husband and I embarked on a journey to find a church that accepted and loved us. It took a while and we found one. Instead of reforming it, we are contributing to the work of a good and decent church. Sometimes reform is impossible and it was in my former church.
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Mr Adrian Romano,
And she was right. I watched as my college friend, who was very involved with Christian activities, walked away and eventually married a non-Christian and converted to some form of Reformed Judaism. I have a hundred stories on top of that and I bet most people here can say the same.
Everyone should go over to exChristian.net https://new.exchristian.net and read the deconversion stories there.
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You summed that up perfectly. I agree with you.
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Great comment. Collin Hansen, an editor of TGC, was bemoaning those who had left the faith in T4G. One example he gave was those who left the Neo-Calvinsta crowd. he seemed to think they had left the faith. This is, unfortunately, the view of many in that movement. Which means they must believe that I am not of the faith. How wrong they would be.
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Surely you remember this clip from the Bob Newhart show? I thought of that when I wrote the title.
https://youtu.be/Ow0lr63y4Mw
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HereIStand,
You are correct. They don’t see their complicity in what has happened in the last 20 years. Can I say Mark Driscoll, and CJ Mahaney to get us started?
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Samuel Conner: Surely TGC can do better than this.
I fear they cannot. They would have to deconstruct and reconstruct and it won’t happen.
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Michael in UK,
I hadn’t thought of it like that!
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I almost went down that road but it was so late and I was tired. I figured an astute reader would pick that up. Read my books…it’ll be OK. Thank you.
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
I loved your comment. There have been a fair number of evangelicals converting to Eastern Orthodoxy. Hank Hanegraaff is one. My husband and I were drifting towards that solution if we couldn’t find a church.
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LOL. My point was that the compact easy ‘answers’ were not nearly as harshly put as they could have been, which would have been more in character. “better” as in “more in keeping with prior practices”
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Points on God-sent hermeneutics and the priorities to accord to why we should suspect (the patriarch Marjie’s) RZIM figurehead Ravi:
FOREMOST that he misleads re Daniel 8. The meaning is that Holy Spirit and Holy Scripture foresee Christ and His presence in our lives and events ensuing. (Steve B noticed this.)
ONLY SECOND that granted colloquially, in Ireland and S India a clergyman is “Dr”, Ravi and cronies repeatedly and deliberately made this get well out of hand with the connection to Polkinghorne and to numerous prestigious institutions fabricated and re-fabricated. (Dee publicized this early.)
ONLY THIRD the sexual misconduct (a lot of people are still denying this).
Now it may have been only no 2 or no 3 that hit us first and gave the game away: I’m listing a logical priority. For example, bad money is another signal of bad sex for those for whom (somebody else’s) bad sex is OK. It’s vital we don’t miss no 1.
The spring of the EIC is that the written text predicts Cyrus. God given hermeneutics equally leave open that this is a pious pose, secondary to the actual meaning I’ve mentioned.
Genesis 1 verses 2 to end, describe neither “creation” nor evolution but the earliest people could remember. The meaning of Creation had to be taught alongside it, treating it as visual aid.
Both Old and New Testaments have among the most plentiful manuscripts still existing. Variations call to brainwork: what’s wrong with that? (In passing, to put Mark after Matthew doesn’t in fact negate the value in hermeneutics at all – sorry I don’t have the argument to hand.)
Next, semiotic(s).
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The EIC is simply Ignatius Loyola’s industrialised religion (plugged straight into central power such as papacy and some foreign countries) married to William James’ Manifest Destiny Swedenborgianism. Another of my several century mystery tours in as few minutes!
WJ not only misrepresented Charles Peirce’s teachings on signs (including signs in Nature) but blocked those of Edmund Husserl whose take on reality reveals how reality actually defends us from fallacies in reifying (saying the word is the thing). (Leaving Husserl prone to warping by Heidegger * .)
These two honest logicians show us that alongside the word as visual aid, the meanings have to be taught. This is why while Scripture is inerrant as text within hermeneutic tolerances, God has challenged every church leader and preacher to teach truthfully, as a test. Teachers teach. St Paul and James and Jesus and Holy Spirit teach if we listen to them honestly and don’t if we don’t.
A more recent and also excellent semiotician Roland Barthes (not to be confused with the proto-fundamentalist and so called “liberal theologian” Karl Barth) critiqued Ignatius Loyola’s industrialised religion alongside Sade’s industrialised sexual crimes. Barthes also wrote a wonderful essay on “Plastic”.
{ * To taunt with “already not yet” as a sort of now you see it now you don’t, with all the scope created for designer melodrama, in a context of Holy Spiritless Muscular Christianity, politely browbeating ourselves to save the heavies the bad image, sounds to me very Heideggerian. }
Apologies that I’m not yet up to citations and scholarly presentation. I’m only mentioning things that have knocked my mind into shape.
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Mr Adrian Romano,
I read a comment on YouTube in which said commenter assured us all that Rachel Held Evans is now in hell.
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dee,
“Surely you remember this clip from the Bob Newhart show? I thought of that when I wrote the title.”
++++++++++++++
ha! i don’t think i ever watched it.
(although i loved Bob Newhart from the 70s as a young kid – i thought it was so funny — Howard the neighbor coming over late at night to say hi…then, “let’s make brownies!”)
to be clear, “pipe down, Joshua Ryan Butler.”
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dee,
“There have been a fair number of evangelicals converting to Eastern Orthodoxy”
+++++++++++++++
ah, options! gives me a good feeling.
what gives me a better feeling is scaling down to one label: human
which is the greatest honor of all.
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I believe in it (cafeteria approach) too, but I still refuse the doctrine of PSA (penal substitutionary atonement). It tastes awful and if I try to swallow it, I’ll barf every time.
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Not everyone is broken, abused, or had “poor teaching” who deconstructs.
It’s a common Christian myth.
A person can get to a point that they can no longer square the circle. What’s in front of them no longer makes sense
As for “being hip”. It takes a lot of soul searching and cost can be high.
No one undertakes the journey on a whim.
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Prov 21: 10-31 describe the spiritual economy in God’s Kingdom, which is not a matter of dominionism at all (nor about the sexes of course). They describe the same thing as most of Jesus’ parables and as the feeding of the Thousands.
It might be said some Scriptures “describe” more closely than others and that meanings have to be taught alongside the coatpeg which Scriptures comprise. It was said that the ending of the book of Samson is like a depiction of the predicament of the Church in later times.
It’s vital that we always keep apart what we think the beliefs ought to be, any new ones we were helped to arrive at, the shop window “declarations of doctrine”, the Creed, the spoken but not held propaganda – all different things.
There really is Tradition in real meanings, but among Romans and protestants so often the alleged concept or label is just a cloak for what is convenient for the powerful to manoeuvre us with.
Church teachings have to respect each of our agency. That so many of you agree with me the that the TGC assumes this is not necessary and accords Jesus’ values no position, affirms in my mind how false, flimsy and fiendish the TGC is. Yet we’ll still have to labour daily to distinguish all the things I’ve mentioned sharply.
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Jack,
“Not everyone is broken, abused, or had “poor teaching” who deconstructs.”
++++++++++
frankly, my own integrity required it.
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Case study: Divorced from sound enough grounding, churches started buying into imbalances around Wilhelm Reich’s sexual obsessions in the 1920s (e.g a fleshly political effort re contraception). Once belief and prayer was being increasingly abandoned in the 1950s (after unabsorbed trauma) we got the essentially failed sexual revolution instead of a far better one God intended; with an intended better charismatic revolution, better environment revolution, etc. After Harvey Milk-Jim Jones, came Body Theology taken as blinkered button pressing not answering our questions properly, with all the scope for svengali-like ghouls and vultures to muscle in with their “solutions” and the EIC to muscle in with their “solutions” to these “solutions” . . .
On “evolution”, natural processes of selection are only half the story, and unfashionable but sound scientists have noted the role of contingency. Some branches of sciences do benefit from a similar kind of constructive “deconstruction” as we are employing re theology, belief and church life. The deconstruction Dee is proposing comprises logic, honesty, work and thirst for knowledge. Not exactly ugly things! Thus I explain my attitudes and approach.
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I’ve also been told by some in Christendom that if I don’t repent of my ‘heresies’ I too will join her in hell when I breathe my last.
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Street cred….gimme a break. It would have been so much easier to lie and go through the motions of still believing. Instead my wife and I were honest with family and friends leading to lost friendships and suspicion from many family members. It has not been fun, but we thought it better to be truthful. Thanks dee for pointing out that people are not just simple equations waiting to be solved by the “local church” .
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Nonsense.
You (generic you) can create 4 equal side lengths from the circumference of any circle.
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PSA (which probably needs describing completely differently anyway) is only a small part of the aspects of Christ’s soteriology that have to accompany it to make it mean something better. The EIC fall to Mill’s and Bacon’s single cause fallacy. I was part of the reproduction of the victim mentality scenario myself for 28 years. As for ESS, that’s “OFF”.
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Not with the Classical Greek Geometry rules of using only straightedge and compass.
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Whatever would God do on J-Day without “some in Christendom” to sit at His right hand whispering in His ear like Grima Wormtongue who is REALLY Saved and (more important) who is NOT?
“ME SHEEP! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HER GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! …”
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No offense to anyone here, but aren’t they just trading one brand for another?
Granted, American evangelicalism has a s**t-load of toxic baggage, but to say that EO has none is a stretch.
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Without going over there, I would predict that a lot of them describe deconversion as Liberating, like going over the Berlin Wall into the West. And finally tasting Freedom for the first time. (And I DON’T mean “free” as in Pelvic Issues(TM) – another Christianese obsession.)
I also predict that many of them have flipped 180 into “Take Your God And Shove It!” backlash. Just like an abused child finally getting away from an abusive family. Because that are the dynamics in play. “NEVER AGAIN!”
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Especially if you’ve run across Net Orthodox who’ve carried all the Fundy attitude to their new brand. (“Monk-a-Bees”, the EO equivalent of the RCC’s “Fundies with Rosaries”.)
The appeal of EO is the same as Hare Krishna – it’s Foreign, it’s EXOTIC, and it’s NOT the same brand that burned them – with its hyper-Litugical, Hyper-Monastic, High-Commitmtment characteristics, it’s as opposite from non-liturgical Fundagelicalism as you can get and still be Christian.
There’s also the generic “stupid human trick” that new converts (especially from some intense high-commitment environment) are often THE most intense and fanatical in their new congregation.
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Even if “those letters behind your name” were bought from a diploma mill or awarded by others in your little playgroup, Larry-Moe-Curly style.
Probably more so than if they were legit. When the subject has come up before, many PhD’s weighed in that if they brag about the words behind their name and demand everyone address them as “Doctor”, their degree IS ALWAYS A FAKE.
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Many years ago I went through an extremely difficult 5-year period, which included the deaths of several loved ones. Our church at the time was little help; the pastor had a “buck up, little Christian” mentality, and while I was welcome at the church, it was equally clear my problems were not.
I took responsibility for my recovery process and did many deep dives into a variety of books to work out my faith. I recall one source described the “betrayal barrier” that many Christians go through when bad things happen in life and how only 10% of those people will stay in the church. This was stated as a fact, as if there was nothing to be done about it.
I remain angry that any Christian would think it’s OK that 90% of people experiencing a “betrayal barrier” with God leave the church, as if those people are disposable.
Jesus went after the 1 lost sheep. Why aren’t these leaders even trying?
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Which is why pi is probably thee most magic number ever invented.
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NT Wright has an alternative understanding of atonement that is both penal and substitionary but that, IIRC, does not look at all like the traditional Protestant view.
IIRC, and assuming that what I remember is what Wright meant, Jesus suffered the wrath (death at the hands of the Romans) that was coming against Israel. On this view, Jesus suffered at the hands of evil men, not (at least in the first instance; ultimate causation will vary depending on one’s understanding of that. Peter in the famous Acts 2 sermon sees the Deity’s purposes and intentions in back of the Cross) at the hands of an angry Deity.
Paradoxically, Jesus losing, in his own person and 40 years ahead of time, Israel’s coming war against Rome, was actually a victory over the powers.
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elastigirl,
I know you didn’t mean me but it recalled that video clip. I meant to put it in the post but I was so tired last night I forgot.
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Muff Potter,
I think that the DIFFERENCE that MATTERS most between the fundagelicals and the EO is that the EO absolutely understand ‘humility’ as Christian;
where, among the fundamentalist-evangelicals, what comes through to most people is the exact opposite. The heaviest ‘hate preachers’ are all so self-assured of their own salvation and so intense in their contempt for ‘the others’ . . . not a sign of humility among them in sight. One grows weary in their presence . . .
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As Dee notes in posts: there are “easy peasy” preachers running their business as usual “churches”, keeping the churches afloat and the easy peasy pastors in position, comfort, and stature. Shallow. Toting Band-Aids instead of a church community with real First Aid. Simpletons as “leaders”.
We eat fast food once in a while. Mostly we eat nutritious well-balanced meals prepared at home, or with friends, or in decent restaurants.
Fast food, fast food church over the long haul are not healthy. But the marketplace in our society has all types of options & choices.
Even when “everyone” seems to be doing it, it may not be a good thing. So when church & leadership fall short, time to move on, even if it’s 90% that end of leaving the “everybody doing it” behind.
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This Joshua Ryan Butler seems young to me, lacking in pastoral experience. Because one thing his article is not is pastoral.
Forgive me but if I were deeply wrestling with questions of my faith, I’d rather seek advice from someone had a few more dark nights of the soul behind her or behind him.
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For what it’s worth, I lost my wife when we were both under 40 due to a medical emergency. While she was slowly dying in the hospital my pastor was emotionally unavailable because of his own personal crisis.
The hospital chaplain, whom I initially dismissed as a liberal Christian (non Christian in my mind at the time), prayed with me, hugged me each day, checked on me constantly, and affirmed the gospel repeatedly to me. Likewise, a pastor that had recently lost his wife performed the service and treated me with a compassion and wisdom that my own pastor never displayed.
My pastor, when he returned, had gone through his personal crisis and, to my eyes, learned all of the wrong lessons. He never acknowledged the hurt that our friends and I were going through in any meaningful way. He just picked up with the vision for the church he believed God had shown him while he was away. It wasn’t a “Buck up” attitude, it was more that he thought everybody would just naturally be excited about his new vision for church.
To answer your final question, in my own pastor’s case he was never a very pastoral person. He had drive, ambition, vision, a desire to prove himself, etc. He was a terrible listener and had zero empathy. I mean, clinically, he’s almost certainly a narcissist. I knew he wasn’t a ‘balanced’ person but I didn’t realize the dire consequences of his imbalance on church health until then.
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And since this is not unique, d’ya think the sems teach this? Nurture this? Attract this? Tolerate or ignore this?
There must be a straight line from somewhere …
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“It’s when we are tested that we realize the strength of our faith,” from the Life of Pi.
However, not everyone meets the challenge. Maybe he’ll get another chance. Maybe next time.
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Ava Aaronson
Forgive any formatting issues, the reply and quote links are not working for me).
I think reputable seminaries are growing aware of the problem of narcissism in the pastorate, but they are going to rely on the word of the churches that send seminary students, and with whom those students intern.
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I hate to disagree, but a square is a very simple construction in classic geometry:
https://www.basic-mathematics.com/how-to-construct-a-square.html
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NT Wright’s view is very old. Ancient Christians believed that Jesus suffered the penalty of death, but there is no record of early Christians believing Jesus endured/satisfied the wrath of God, or that God had to vent his wrath before he could forgive. That is a big difference that protestants tend to overlook. Calvin invented the modern version of penal substitution based on his assumption that sin/debt cannot be forgiven until it is paid for. Somehow he missed the fact that payment and forgiveness are mutually exclusive. He apparently did not believe that God, being sovereign, is free to forgive without contraints or conditions.
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Marco, you have been through so much. Thank you for sharing your story and insights here.
I’d say that narcissism is not the only psychological problem in the pastorate. Many people have primitive personalities. Many enjoy having power over others, control over time and events. They oversimplify. Some take the approach that, if you’re sad because of a tragedy, that’s your problem.
Fortunately, some seminaries require seminarians to undergo counseling, to make sure they know something about the demands and sacrifices of the ministry,* and to evaluate their personalities and mental health. Of course, these seminaries respect psychology and psychiatry. It’s not a whole solution, but it’s better than pretending that pastors are superhuman and all-knowing.
*Sacrifices of time and self while helping people in their most difficult moments. As you unfortunately experienced, certain pastors do not consider this type of sacrifice part of their job description.
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But it gets even better when you can combine pi with e and i in such an elegant way:
https://www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/eulers-formula.html
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Just listened to the final episode of the The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast series this evening (as, I’m sure, have other Wartburgers), and I’ve been pondering the history of toxic church and those who’ve benefited from that very toxicity over the last few decades.
There’s a famous sermon introduction attributed to the inimitably maverick Tony Campolo, which goes something like: I want to talk to you tonight about three tragedies. The first tragedy is that last night, while you slept, thousands of children around the world died from hunger or poverty-related disease. The second tragedy is that most of you don’t give a ****. And the third tragedy is that you were more shocked that I just said **** than you were about thousands of children dying from hunger.
We’re still seeing the old nonsense being peddled from funded pulpits as in the OP here: if the machine that pays me has hurt you, then shut up about it and let God make you not care about it any more. I don’t think any Wartburgers will be unable to see through that, so I don’t need to say anything else about it.
Here’s the thing, though. I think there’s a steady change building in the Church, as more and more of us are learning to stand firm in the face of this kind of misdirection and showmanship. And if we imagine for a moment that God really existed – I know, but bear with me – then thousands of exvangelicals all lamenting in secret to Him might have an effect. Specifically, the prayers of thousands of His people might somehow build into an answer.
The Reformation, as it is known, didn’t actually reform the Church; if anything it did the reverse, creating thousands of para-church churches in which mini-popes could sell indulgences of their own. That didn’t always happen, but it happened often enough and to a sufficient degree that there is now a christian industrial complex as corrupt as anything in medieval Rome. And, BTW, every bit as much in bed with political power.
The Great Schism didn’t suddenly happen because they fell out one day over exactly Whom the Holy Spirit proceeds from; it had undoubtedly been brewing for many years. Same with the reformation. But there’s something we here are (each in our own way) a part of that is also brewing, and has been for many years. It’s going to change the Church, too.
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Yup; Surprised by Hope is one of our recent reading list. Maybe the simplest hypothesis for Calvin’s power/punishment idea was that he just couldn’t imagine a God that big. The natural man doesn’t understand spiritual things (to paraphrase Paul); I certainly think that eternal_subordination_of_the_Son comes from a mindset that just isn’t spiritual enough to imagine stability without dominance hierarchy. There’s a chapter on that in my upcoming book.
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The road to destruction doesn’t have to be a straight, plain path, but …
an hypothesis that seems plausible to me is that “normies” (as opposed to pathological narcissists) are endowed with a measure of humility and self-skepticism, and these can be kind of self-defeating when in competition with narcissists for limited job opportunities.
IIRC, Martha Stout, in her The Sociopath Next Door , asserted that while the prevalence of sociopathy in the general population is about 4%, it is more common in the upper reaches of hierarchical organizations. IIRC, the explanation was two-fold — sociopaths like to exercise power, and they are more willing to be ruthless than “normies” in seeking it. Perhaps there’s something similar in narcissism.
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Most of these leaders apparently don’t care about the sheep – they just want the fleece.
(And, yes, I intentionally used the word “fleece” as a double entendre.)
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There’s an IMO very beautiful section in (Vol 1, probably, of) Robert Jenson’s slim 2-volume Systematic Theology (“slender systematic theology” may sound like an oxymoron, but Jenson’s is. He was a leading Lutheran theology, passed not long ago) that touches on this.
IIRC he adapted some work from secular thinking about how dyadic relationships tend toward dominance by one party and submission by the other, and that this can be resolved if there is a trustworthy 3rd party in whom or through whom or under whose supervision both parties can safely give themselves to each other. IIRC, he suggested that one could see this in the famous Eph 5 command of mutual submission out of reverence for Christ. He definitely suggested that this is at work within the Godhead, with the Holy Spirit functioning as the ‘3rd party’ in the Father/Son love relationship.
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He’s not young, I believe he’s in his later 40s. One of his bios says he’s been pastoring over 20 years. Hope that helps.
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Chuck DeGroat likes to point out that something like 90 to 95% of the population hates public speaking. Now consider the type that not only doesn’t, but starts of with “This is the word of the Lord…”
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It doesn’t settle my mind if that’s what you mean by help. Lord help any who seek his counsel.
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YES!!! Thx, Nick! God bless!
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marco,
I am so sorry, on multiple levels.
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Ah… the temptation of “being in charge”.
Some have even found fleece hidden in walls, of late.
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OT: “…the former exec. dir. of the Family Research Council’s political arm is on trial for child pornography…”
… according to the investigators, it is material of the most evil kind – the worst they have ever seen in their careers as investigators. Babies being violated. Thank God for this investigation & DOJ process.
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Descriptions of the various types of narcissists:
https://youtu.be/x54z2pRAvtg
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One of the other things is that all language is metaphorical. Words allude, and when several allusions intersect, we may get meaning.
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This point is highlighted in a used book I found a few years ago and finally started reading (slowly) not too long ago: “Why I am a Catholic” by Garry Wills. I nearly put it down a number of times but for some reason I continued on. Near the end of the book there is a chapter on “The Pope’s Loyal Opposition” where he argues that despite all the flaws, failures, and corruption of the papacy, a church without a Pope is even worse. That single chapter jammed up all the gears in my thinking. It is a stunning thought for me that I still have to process further.
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True, but what if I get a rhombus?
It all comes down to interpretation, when a person deconstructs, what is rebuilt is not what it used to be.
Your co-geometrists may consider “Revised Rhombism” a heresy.
When it comes to religion anything goes.
Zuckers-Abram-Zuckers had this bit from “Airplane” that fits.
“Steve McCroskey : Johnny, what can you make out of this?
[Hands him the weather briefing]
Johnny : This? Why, I can make a hat or a brooch or a pterodactyl”
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Given that ‘face-to-face private ministry of the Word’ is probably a more important pastoral function than ‘public speaking before masses of assembled believers,’ perhaps eagerness to declaim in public should be a disqualification for pastoral ministry.
Let ’em become tent-making evangelists, like Paul, and fill up in their own bodies what they are still lacking in respect to Christ’s sufferings.
—
OTOH, perhaps it’s better for these people to be in certain easily identifiable places rather than wreaking havoc at large in the wider world. Contain the infection, so to speak (this snark is offered only half in jest). Perhaps within God’s larger purposes, concentrating narcissists and sociopaths in certain places is a form of mercy toward the rest of the world outside those places. If this is what the Creator is up to, it would be good to notice that and make appropriate adjustments.
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“… shallow and somewhat out of touch with reality …”
That’s what happens when you turn a bunch of spiritually immature young reformers loose on the church. Just because someone puts a mic in their face, doesn’t mean they have anything to say.
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“This is the “stupid sheep” explanation. It is assumed that the average churchgoer, who becomes upset and begins to deconstruct, has no idea that there are good books at TGC and by this pastor which will make all things right if they read them.” (Dee)
What Mr. Butler is really saying is “I know you are becoming concerned that you have ventured into a cult and are thinking about leaving, since the rest of the religious world are talking about the aberrations of New Calvinism. Please don’t take off until you give us a chance to indoctrinate you a bit more. You will eventually realize that we alone teach truth.”
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wow, Nick, that is a thought-provoking comment,
especially after considering an article about what’s coming ‘that’s been brewing for years’ in a kind of extremist right-wing ‘conservative christianity’ that employs a strict Manicheean separation of ‘WE who are saved’ from ‘the others’. No more humility there, no. No more ‘God be merciful to me, a sinner’, only ‘I’m saved and YOU are going straight to hell!!!!!’ (one grows tired, more than afraid, but the mixture of this ethos with trumpian politics and the growing fear of ‘dominionism’ is a real result these days)
Here’s the article which I found frankly terrifying in the context of what is going on in the USA today, even now, as white supremacists marched in the capital of our nation yesterday . . . concerning? you bet it is!
https://flux.community/matthew-sheffield/2021/10/far-right-american-christians-think-theyre-living-bible-story-and
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“People deconstruct because they have a desire to sin”
This is odd coming from a group that borders on antinomianism. TWW and others have posted much about the “cheap grace” which has emerged in certain corners of New Calvinism. Many darlings of the movement have fallen from favor due to sin of one sort or another: Driscoll, MacDonald, Tullian, Lentz, etc. etc. The author even mentions some of these icons in his article, yet they were promoted by NeoCal elite as stars of the movement at one time. He doesn’t take an axe to the root of the NeoCal tree, a theology if stretched to its limit says that “grace” releases one from the obligation of observing the moral law. The characters listed above – once NeoCal heroes of the faith – evidently thought so.
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Knowledge is only firm because of your degrees of your inference.
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IMO, the TGC article is another attempt to keep NeoCal followers in the pew. The movement has been drawing too much negative attention and rightfully so. It is deconstructing right before their eyes and its leaders are making last-ditch efforts to keep it alive. They tried disciplining the heck out of the faithful to keep them in the pews and the pews are getting tired of it, so they are now playing the shame-game … it’s shameful if you deconstruct.
I view articles like this as a good sign that the NeoCal movement is in the last chapter of its life, to soon join other failed religious groups in obscurity. They always implode when they’ve run their course: “If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord” (Acts 5:39). The NeoCal flash in the pan has flashed out.
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BTW we examine our own consciences, we don’t recognise TGC in that role.
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Squaring a circle isn’t about circumference/perimeter. It’s about surface area.
Essentially, to have a perfect square, there must be a square root.
You can express the area of a circle in the form of an equation. But, that would involve having pi under a radical, and pi is an irrational number.
So, we can express squaring a circle as an abstract equation, but we cannot actually create an accurate construction (diagram) of a squared circle.
I kept that explanation as short and as simple as possible, so does it make sense?
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Flash mob dissolving, as they typically do.
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Sums it up. It’s all they have to offer. Doctrine upon doctrine (more books, conferences, videos, $$$) with discipline is never discipleship. Jesus noted this as the MO of the evil religious leadership of His day.
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Nick Bulbeck,
There’s a point somewhere in the second half of the newly released final Rise and Fall episode where Paul David Tripp (I think) says that we should all be continually deconstructing our faith to make sure it’s the Bible we’re following and not the culture we construct around it. He suggests that if we don’t constantly deconstruct we’re just going to keep having more failures, more scandals.
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More focus on discipline that the Word of God: More pressure for the flocks to read the Gospel Glitterati books than encouragement to become at least half-@$$ bereans.
I have wondered if they write so many books just to get pew peons to lay their Bibles aside, if their followers even have Bibles.
For this pack of wolves, I think shepherding a flock of curious bereans would seem, to them, more like herding cats……. Big cats……..tigers, lions, panthers, cheetahs…..
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Nick Bulbeck,
There’s a point toward the end of the final Rise and Fall episode where Paul David Tripp essentially says we should all be continually deconstructing our faith or else we’ll keep having more failures, more scandals.
How apropos.
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It shouldn’t. He’s been a pastor for over 20 years and yet he insists on clinging to this very simplistic view where the church is always right and you’re always wrong. It’s obvious he’s never talked to anyone outside of his bubble in any depth. (Not counting me for 10 minutes on a sidewalk.)
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Like this?
“There has been a resurgence of churches that take their Bibles seriously enough to walk out of step with current culture. They see the complementarian vision as life-giving for both men and women.” Wayne Grudem tweet 12.3.2021
Steve Gardner @TheologySteve responds:
“There has been a resurgence of people who take their Bibles seriously enough to walk out of complementarian churches. They see the complementarian vision for what it is:
=sex discrimination against girls & women
=harm to little girls in the pews taught sex discrim is OK
=sin”
I would add: symptomatic of control freak male that’s-all-we-have-to-offer cheap patriarchy with followholic macho-seeking men with followholic princessness-seeking women.
Kinda like living 3D real life in the shallows via the plastic lens of the 2D Disney animation film world of Sleeping Beauty, Pocahontas, Little Mermaid, Snow White & their Guys on White Horses. Yuck.
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AFTER they finish the Smash & Grab at Nordstrom’s and get away with the loot.
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This reminds me of a discussion I had with a Lutheran pastor back in the 1990s. He argued that the Bible is a complex collection of documents and great care needs to be taken in the reading of same. I, on the other hand, was all basically “Interpretation of the Bible should be open to everyone.”
Nearly 30 years later and I’d like to apologize to the guy for being utterly wrong. In English, we have so many translations it’s easy to pick and choose something that sounds good to your ear. (I know, I do it too.) The problem with that is this *paves* over the ancientness of the texts and how different the world was in those days. I could give examples, but I’ll not bore you.
Oh wait, I’ll give you two examples wrapped up in one book, because it’s easy. There are quite a number of people who cling tightly to the King James Version as their Bible. The problem is the vast, vast majority of them are not reading the 1611 text. The actual text of the KJV that has been available in the United States since the American Revolution and printed millions upon millions of times has been the Oxford version of 1769. That said, even a facsimile 1769 KJV (or 1611, for that matter) would be difficult for the average person today to read because of the use of the “long s”. Interestingly enough, the “long s” (which looks like an f without the crossbar) was only in use in English print in the 17th and 18th centuries, and dropped out thereafter for use of the “terminal s,” the one we use today.
The other thing is that while the English language which is from 410 or 252 years ago is “modern”, it’s still not an easy read. Those of you who suffered through Shakespeare in college know what I’m talking about. Back in the day, when I worked in a college bookstore, we sold scads of the Riverside Shakespeare (now Wadsworth Shakespeare), a massive book, as thick or thicker than an intro biology textbook. I use Shakespeare because it’s a rough contemporary of the 1611 KJV, but if you open it up, you’ll see the plays HEAVILY annotated because, seriously, you’ll miss sooo much if you just read the text. The average KJV isn’t annotated with these historical and linguistic notes. I always wondered about that. And it’s not like more modern versions indulge my historical and philological fantasies either. I guess, as an ex-boyfriend used to say, I missed my calling and should have gone into Biblical studies rather than to law school.
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Yes. Al Mohler framed it this way:
“Where else are they gonna go? I mean, what options are there? If you’re a theologically minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel-built and structured and committed churches, your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed, basically being something like this New Calvinism or you’re gonna have to invent some other label for what’s just gonna be the same thing. There just are not options out there. And that’s something that I think frustrates some people. But when I am asked about the New Calvinism, I will say just basically, where else are they gonna go? Who else is gonna answer the questions? Where else will they find the resources they need? And where else are they gonna connect? This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.” (Dr. Albert Mohler, President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)
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Law not life. Flesh not spirit.
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marco,
It seems like everyone is saying “deconstruction” all the time, and one thing about buzzwords is that they quickly lose specific meaning. I wonder, particularly, whether “deconstructing” “our faith” isn’t quite different from “deconstructing” our experience of religion and religious practice.
I think we should all continually be learning, growing, asking questions, listening to a variety of responses, and evaluating our beliefs and our religious experiences.
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marco,
These stories, like others, really brings to life a number of NT passages….
The lack of “Love” by SO many church “leaders”, and Church denomination policies/structures, stands out clearly, as does what the NT says about leaders that do not demonstrate LOVE…
Now, we can all get into a debate about what LOVE is, but I would venture to guess most of us would agree that the primary posts at TWW do not demonstrate LOVE..
In some ways, it is “simple”…. If said leader/church does not “Love your neighbor as yourself, etc,etc”.. it is false…. Which makes me reflect on whether, and how, I “Love my neighbor”…
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Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I agree…. And there are MANY more examples of specific “context” of the KJV….. like so much else, average “Joe” does not want to hear “complexity”… average “Joe” wants straight forward, simple answers….
As if life were that way….. sigh..
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And the Unrighteous must NEVER be allowed to contaminate the Righteousness of The Righteous.
Not even by their Existence.
Absolute Power plus Utter Righteousness is a very dangerous combination.
And they’re not the first Devout Christians who “Live the Bible Story” with themselves as God’s Righteous Heroes.
Massachusetts Puritans lived Book of Joshua: The Live Role-Playing Game for well over a century, complete with God’s Chosen People (themselves), Exodus from Egypt (the too-Romish Apostate Anglican Church) with God giving them their Promised Land (New England) complete with Heathen Canaanites already there (the Massachusett, Penobscot, Pequot, and other tribesmen).
Ask any descendants of those tribes about what it meant to be the Canaanites in the Puritans little LARP – IF you can find any descendants.
Now the famous pic heading off the article: “One Nation Under God” by John McNaughton. (Fun Fact: “The McNaughton Rule” is the name of British Law’s definition of legal insanity.)
The painting is a classic “Last Judgment” composition, arranged around the prominent figure of Christ in Glory at the center/focus.
* Above and behind Christ (background) is “The Cloud of Witnesses”, all the Hosts of Heaven.
* Below and to the left (left foregorund, Christ’s Right Hand) are the Faithful being welcomed into Heaven – “WELL DONE THOU GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT; ENTER THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!”
* Below and to the right (right foreground, Christ’s Left Hand) are the Damned – “BEGONE FROM ME YE CURSED INTO EVERLASTING FIRE!!! JOIN THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS!!!”
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At the root of every bad-boy minister/ministry report on TWW is a lack of love. When shopping for a church, every believer needs to use the John 13 litmus test: “By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you have love and unselfish concern for one another.”
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It’s not too late to ‘change lanes’. I seem to recall reading that some of the very important figures in the early (and even later) history of the Protestant movement started out in law studies. I imagine that may have had something to do with the directions their interpretations of the ancient texts took.
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That, too.
It’s a Smash & Grab free-for-all right now with loot** pouring out from church walls.
**Someone(s) did their 9 to 5 due diligence then gave up their hard-earned resources to be stashed in a church wall depositary for what? The fleecers’ pool party? Jet? Pool boy?
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I gotta ask you, HUG, have you seen the Cthulhu version of that “painting”? Oh, Jon McNaughton is Mormon and his “paintings” (in general) apparently reference a particular Mormon aesthetic, I’m told.
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*cough* John Calvin *cough*
At this point in my life, I want to get up to fluency in Japanese. Not to read manga, but to be able to read the tags in museum exhibits and maybe even be able to understand specialist history books. I have a LONG way to go.
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Plus an insatiable appetite for fresh Mutton.
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No, but I’d like to see it.
Plus I know some Lovecraft aficionados who’d get a kick out of it – my old Dungeonmaster and both my writing partners.
Do you have a link URL?
Oh, Jon McNaughton is Mormon and his “paintings” (in general) apparently reference a particular Mormon aesthetic, I’m told.
So’s Glenn Beck (the Mormon Rush Limbaugh), and Evangelicals follow him around like a Prophet of The LORD.
As for “Mormon Aesthetic”, not sure what that is except I figure it would be especially strong in Utah (California Mormons say Utah Mormons are the most rigid and extreme) and would probably closely resemble Born-Again Christianese aesthetics – Mythologized Nifty Fifties blended with that other Godly Golden Age the Pioneers settling the West. Both the Mormons and Revivalist Evangelicalism originated around the same place and time – the Burned-Over District of Upstate New York in the early-to-mid 19th Century (Weird Religion capital of the time) – and would have the same cultural roots and backgrounds.
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Ava Aaronson,
More on this OT: Question arose: What about the wife who is in support of pedo-dad? Is she protecting their kids from pedo-dad, her husband, while she supports him? Is she brainwashed? Trapped in a cult? Incompetent to protect their children from pedo-dad?
Experts would know. However, being in charge of the children, as an adult she is responsible for the welfare of the children even and especially in regard to her husband the pedo-dad.
Incompetent? Brainwashed? Trapped? Can’t help herself or protect the children? Then their kids need a different caregiver who WILL protect them from their pedo-dad.
Feeling sorry for the mom, or non-judgmental about her, does NOT protect the children’s welfare. Remove the children. Re-train the mom. If she refuses, charge her as complicit or institutionalize her as incapable, and remove her parental status and rights.
Every child gets ONE childhood. That’s it. One chance. Adults, parents, can marry and divorce or whatever as needed but each developmental day of a child’s life happens once. Only once. Adults can do their thing without wrecking kids unless their thing IS wrecking kids. In this case, the dad IS a criminal kid-wrecker. If mom doesn’t protect them, she is also a criminal kid-wrecker and needs to be removed for jail or simply denied access, whichever the experts deem appropriate.
ON TOPIC: This another example in real life why the church leadership’s “Stop it” or “Just say no” is uninformed (stupid, ignorant, lazy). The dad is a pedo criminal. Simple evil. But the mom’s part in all this? Those children NEED their mom to protect them, if she is capable and willing. The $$$M question. Trained experts, not preachers, needed here. (Preachers can bless the good experts after they do a good job. But preachers can’t do their job. It is science, behavioral.)
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Fascinating connection.
Same look. The ideal family, ducks in a row. Kids’ education. Women’s groups. Men’s groups. Civic engagement. Nothing wrong with any of these, except it can be a facade. (Jesus said seek Him first.)
7th Day-ers go for the same look, with added dietary restrictions.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Ewwwww.
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No lack of sexual engagements, tho’. Badboys say love and mean sex.
(Badgirls may do similar, but women as yet don’t share the same opportunities and liabilities as guys in church leadership.)
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Nick Bulbeck,
I think Calvin well understood just how “big” God is. The problem is, most commenters rarely look beyond themselves.
“As long as we do not look beyond the earth, being quite content with our own righteousness, wisdom, and virtue, we flatter ourselves most sweetly, and fancy ourselves all but demigods. Suppose we but once begin to raise our thoughts to God, and to ponder his nature, and how completely perfect are his righteousness, wisdom, and power—the straightedge to which we must be shaped. Then, what masquerading earlier as righteousness was pleasing in us will soon grow filthy in its consummate wickedness. What wonderfully impressed us under the name of wisdom will stink in its very foolishness. What wore the face of power will prove itself the most miserable weakness. That is, what in us seems perfection itself corresponds ill to the purity of God.” (Calvin, Institutes).
As for the problems of authority, subordination and showmanship, you have to look closer to home than the time of the Reformation. Presented at the Pentecostals, Power and Empowerment EPCRA/EPTA Conference in Schloss Beuggen, Rheinfelden, Germany, 29 March–2 April 2005., the authors of “Apostolic Networks in the UK: the dynamics of growth” said-
“The third stream was to be found within the ‘house churches’, as they were originally called. These were new fellowships that sprang up with a strong commitment to Pentecostal and charismatic doctrine. They met in the first instance in small groups in homes or hired school halls and they were inclined to radicalism. These were newcomers on the scene, and many of their preachers attacked what they saw to be the deadness of denominationalism, whether it was renewed or not, and the legalism of what they saw to be Pentecostalism. Almost flaunting their new-found freedom the new churches would deliberately meet in pubs, play football on Sundays and drive fashionable cars. In the 1970s the preacher who turned up in the most fashionable clothes and with a well coiffured wife would almost certainly belonged to the restorationist movement, and this lifestyle choice was not simply reached by copying American prosperity teaching. ..By the mid-1980s the new churches began to cluster themselves around various powerful ministers who, with minimal infrastructural links, transformed sets of congregations into apostolic networks. Each network would vary in size and operation but, in essence, the pattern was similar. Local congregations governed by elders would be subdivided into home groups that could come together in various permutations of size and frequency. The local elders were submissive to the apostolic figure who, himself, functioned within an apostolic team although always as a first among equals. The emphasis upon the authority of apostles as well as the authority of other ministry gifts stood in stark contrast to the more constitutional mind-set that permeated many Pentecostal denominations. This ministerial authority was also in contrast to the typically more ineffective and liturgical ministerial role to be found within non-Pentecostal churches. Consequently, the apostolic networks began to offer attractive certainties and confident direction that made them, at first, envied by ministers in more conventional settings. As a result the networks had an impact on the rest of the church within Great Britain out of proportion to their numbers.”.
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Like most everybody these days.
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Are you talking about Anna Duggar?
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Everyone’s milage may vary….
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Snap. Twitter discourse weighs her support of her pedo-hubby in their family with minor children.
“She can’t help it, poor dear; I know cuzzah what I went through.”
“She’s responsible for harming their kids AND evil, I know cuzzah what I went through.”
Two versions of But I Know Better.
Hello… nonpersonal-annecdotal but highly trained experienced experts needed here. Very important advocacy for their children.
Every Christian has a personal testimony (anecdote) for coming to Christ. Navigating to anecdotal authority on everyone & everything else is a stretch … I don’t buy it.
Quoting gospelboyz: “Just stop.”
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Thx for the interesting notes and correlations. Frames history.
Jesus said we are known by our love for Him and each other.
I guess these wild goose chasers are known by their weird picaresque quests that seem to be oddly parallel.
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My humanity (both definitions) and consciousness required it.
Some days, I feel like I’m sitting here staring at a box of disconnected tinker toys, and maybe a few other things ……..trying to figure out how they should go back together…… what pieces fit, and what pieces are foreign?
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““You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,” said Aslan. “And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content.”
(from the book ‘Prince Caspian’ in the Chronicles of Narnia)
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It makes perfect sense.
My bad from the outset for not saying that my previous comment was to be taken as a triviality concerning circumference and having nothing to do with area.
(2*pi*r)/4 (where ‘r’ is any circle’s radius) will indeed yield four equal lengths from which a legitimately square polygon can be constructed.
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Muff Potter,
Wonderful to meet maths lovers, I like billions of others was put off it by bad teaching.
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Lowlandseer,
Thank you for this explanation of the present.
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Me Too! 🙂 🙂 🙂
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Got it. All good.
Communication can get messy when there are no facial expressions or vocal intonations!
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Worm theology at it’s finest, where literally our best deeds and thoughts and worse than dung. Calvin provided the theological basis for sin-levelling.
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A young New Calvinist fresh out of an SBC seminary came to my hometown to plant a church. He was going around town telling folks that he was going to make God big here. I told him that God was already pretty big, huge indeed. He looked at me puzzled and walked away.
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It is my understanding that she/they (including her husband here) have not allowed their children to be questioned by social workers or officers trained in detecting child sexual abuse. I have a VERY bad feeling* about this, but this is all I can say at the moment.
*seriously, it’s a horrible sinking sickening feeling, one that has me wondering if he repeated what he was claimed to have done to his younger siblings with his children.
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In the text of this blog post indicating what this Gospel Coalition article contained did mention Driscoll:
“You grew up under the influence of leaders like Ravi Zacharias, Carl Lentz, or Mark Driscoll—whose teaching and charisma powerfully inspired you and formatively shaped you—but then the curtain got pulled back.”
Who this person failed to mention was C.J. Mahaney. I would say that the above statement certainly characterized Mahaney at least for some people like it applied to Driscoll.
It is certainly interesting that the author of this Gospel Coalition article didn’t see that one of their former big wigs was in the same boat as the other leaders mentioned. Mahaney also displayed a lot of sin and hypocrisy not to mention his covering up sexual abuse within Sovereign Grace churches.
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I have a feeling that church history will record a whole lot more went on behind the NeoCal curtain than we know right now. Their movement has provided plenty of fodder for Christian watchblogs. What dark secrets remain to be exposed?
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
“My humanity (both definitions) and consciousness required it.
Some days, I feel like I’m sitting here staring at a box of disconnected tinker toys, and maybe a few other things ……..trying to figure out how they should go back together…… what pieces fit, and what pieces are foreign?”
+++++++++++++++
i’m sure i’m late to the party, here, but there’s more than one definition of humanity??
i understand about the tinker toys (it certainly applies to multiple areas of my life…. sigh, it’s tiring. i’m tired, befuddled and bewildered.)
as tinker toys apply to faith, i just put a few together called “treating people the way I want to be treated” and then go enjoy the sunset for all its beauty.
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Well, that makes what he says and writes sound even scarier. He lacks much for the amount of time he’s been in ministry.
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How many people actually look at any part of themselves and think “ah! perfection itself” . . . maybe only those who fall on the narcissistic spectrum? If there is one.
Is Calvin projecting on others his own perspectives of himself? This is an honest question.
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Yes!
In a Latin class in my college days, the author of an intro to a Roman comedy I was reading expressed the wish that the play could be translated anew every time it was performed in a new location, substituting in local politics and jokes about local officials for the Roman politics and Roman officials named in the original, to make it more closely resemble the spirit (as opposed to the letter) of the comedy, and be more relatable to the audience for whom it was being performed.
I suppose, in a perfect world, this is what a good pastor does with a good sermon sermon.
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This may not make sense outside my own mind, so sorry in advance.
But sometimes it seems like seeing how a (dysfunctional) leader “loves” the congregation member shows how they themselves have been taught “love.”
Like the pastor who only had negative things to say about the legalistic household in which he was raised as a pastor’s kid, but then had his parents be a major part of his installation ceremony when promoted to senior pastor, like a proud child showing off a major accomplishment. Said pastor then turns around and leads the church in a legalistic direction, increasingly demanding performance metrics that members must meet to show their “commitment” to the church and, by extension, the “gospel.”
Or the women’s Bible study leader who says she feels like she can never be good enough to earn God’s love. And then turns around and pushes accountability, and accountability, and even more accountability so we can all be accountable (because apparently God is still counting up the heaven points we earn).
So, in a way, they ARE loving their neighbors as they love themselves. It’s just not a healthy kind of love. (Dare I say, “biblical” kind of love?)
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Both examples sound to me like “living out their understanding of power relations.” Assert your power over others the way others have asserted power over you.
Perhaps one could call that ‘the brass (ring) rule’.
Jesus inverts the conventional hierarchy of power relations into an inverted hierarchy of self-giving.
It ought to seem odd that in the church, one’s life experience often overrules or overthrows Jesus’ example and commands, but I suppose that it’s so common that one is not surprised to hear such stories.
If it’s true that people tend to express toward others the power relations that they have been subjected to, one would be justified in having low expectations for what the long-term outcome of the megachurch movement is going to be. Perhaps the long-term Assessment of this movement will be ‘just stop it!’
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
In fact Calvin copied this from one of Aquinas’ poorest efforts, which was based on sophistry around supposed “perfection”.
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That is a very good point. I sometimes think I have the gift of hindsight – what you wrote seems so obvious now but I did not notice it before. It’s very similar to the argument many Calvinists make about free-will advocates claiming to save themselves. I don’t know any free-will advocates who credit themselves with their salvation. Who thinks like that? Could such Calvinists be projecting their thinking onto others?
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Oh you mean like Calum Scott 😉 😉 😉
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Or the brass knuckles rule…
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Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
After all, lead them in the way they should go.
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I have encountered in people in generic (non-Reformed) evangelical congregations a kind of smugness about their cleverness in having taken the good bargain that they understand ‘the Gospel’ to be: ‘I give Jesus the guilt of my sins and I get eternal blessedness in return’ — coupled with a disdain or contempt for the stupidity of people who are not smart enough to perceive what a good ‘deal’ this is.
That’s not far, IMO, from the attitude you describe as rare in your experience. Not exactly relying on themselves to save them, but not exactly not relying, either.
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I imagine that the subjects of Wenatchee’s latest rumination,
https://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2021/12/brad-vermurlens-reformed-resurgence.html
would really like him to ‘just stop it!’
—-
It’s an interesting analysis of whether New Calvinism has been a significant phenomenon numerically within the context of the much larger broad evangelical movement, or alternatively has mostly been really visible due to aggressive brand-building and self-promotion.
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“It could be that in the end the Reformed resurgence and New Calvinism was founded and made famous by some men who were legends in their own minds.”
There is no doubt that New Calvinism has been a religious phenomenon birthed and led by extremely arrogant men. Only arrogance would step onto the stage and proclaim we alone hold truth. Only arrogance would point at various expressions of Christian faith across the planet and say they are not “viable options” as Al Mohler proclaimed in his now infamous quote about the New Calvinist movement. Yep, these characters are definitely legends in their own minds. If church history records them as legendary, it won’t be in a good way.
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They’re far from the only ones to do so.
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Because when all is viewed through the lens of Power Struggle, there are only TWO possible states:
1) MY Boot Stamping on Your Face.
2) Your Boot Stamping on MY Face.
And the only way to avoid (2) is to make sure of (1). FOREVER.
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When I was in-country in the Seventies, it wasn’t “accountability accountability accountability” that gave you Heavenly Brownie Points.
It was “How Many Souls Have YOU Saved?????”
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My reading for this morning was in Matt. 23, so forgive me if I see things through that lens this morning.
But here goes: maybe God is not impressed with our systematic theologies of any flavor, or our ability to garner crowds, raise money, or build buildings.
Maybe He would just prefer we quietly love Him with all our heart, mind, and soul, and love our neighbor as ourselves.
Maybe less talking about Him and more walking with Him?
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Now imagine what it’s like to come from an abusive upbringing into that kind of church.
God just joins in on the Beatdown.
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Oh yeah … there’s been an outbreak of “one true church” arrogance across the planet! There are some 30,000 Christian denominations and organizations worldwide … all claiming to be ‘the’ church … which one has a corner on the truth really?
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The ancient liturgies describe God as “the lover of mankind.” Somehow modern theology transmogrified it into “the loather of mankind.”
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To be clear, I’m not doubting that there are narcissists. I just wonder if there is a spectrum. It seems to me that some may have more narcissistic tendencies than others.
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Bridget,
There is the common definition of narcissism, which is excessive self love or vanity. Someone with diagnosable narcissism has a host of other manifestations, including delusions of grandeur or ‘grandiosity,’ a sense that the rules do not apply to him or her, troubled relationships, and an associated lack of empathy. There are other symptoms but those are the ones I most clearly witnessed.
Imagine someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder as a having a four or five year old’s understanding of his own importance, and his own relation to other people. It’s all about the performance and the audience reaction.
The layman’s guide I read on the disorder described the root interaction along these lines: as long as the audience cheers when he puts on the mask and cape, then he really is a superhero.
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Good policy and action.
I would refrain from assembling anything out of the same tinker toys that would hurt people, cuz’ I couldn’t have that on my conscience.
Then I’d go and enjoy the star fields on a night sky far away from all the damn light pollution.
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When I read pieces similar to TGC, it always reminds me of the Pharisees’ reaction to the man born blinded – how dare you teach us!
These Pharisees do not listen and learn from others. They speak to their own audience to give the audience and themselves a “biblical” and “rational” excuse to be in the right (God’s side) and NOT TO FEEL the guilt and shame that they are in the wrong.
IMO, these writers have a seared conscience – they lack empathy.
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When they threw the man out of church, Jesus went looking for him. Jesus still does that. The greatest hindrance to a genuine move of God is counterfeit religion.
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Isn’t it true that all disorders are on a spectrum? I think the real question is when does behavior cross the line from normal to disorder.
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I don’t doubt there are some people like that, but Calvinists often claim that ALL free-will advocates believe they claim credit for their salvation. And they also say free-will advocates diminish God’s glory, as if that were even possible.
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Here is an interesting podcast on deconstruction:
https://good-faith.simplecast.com/episodes/deconstructing-faith-necessary-dangerous-or-both-rEaFUMJ6
I have only listened 1/2 way but so far so good. Also, David French one of two podcasters has a lot of good blog posts, so I am sure this is just as good.
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Diagnosis?? Cure?? Hold on there dude.
After reading the TGC piece, I have to say that to me the attitude it communicates is far from gracious. I agree with Dee’s points and here are a few of my own:
What exactly does this pastor mean by deconstruction? He seems to be equating it with deconversion but never explicitly says that. So (deliberately or not) he seems to be painting all doubts and questioning as dangerous.
For the “diagnosis” of “bad teaching”- I see no recognition of the pain and confusion unsound teaching can cause. I speak for myself but I think many others would agree, “bad teaching” can warp one’s view of oneself, the world and God at the core. The spiritual, psychological and emotional consequences are profound. Yet, this pastor seems to think correcting all that is a purely intellectual exercise. It’s as if he’s suggesting his kid needs some remedial math help.
Then there is the most glaring omission (to me). Where does he ever acknowledge the possibility that what deconstructing folks may need is not more books or more teaching or more rules to follow, but more Jesus?
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Excellent web page.
Points:
i – little consensual meanings – because little meanings
ii – reaction to Emergence – by identical cloning, only they pretended to be less bossy (sometimes)
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Typical New Calvinist approach to controlling the pew through manipulation, intimidation, and domination. The underlying message to the pew is to sit down, shut up, and accept everything I say as truth.
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These guys seldom include Jesus in their narrative. Indeed, their sermons speak little of Jesus and hardly a word about the Holy Spirit. They talk a lot about “God” and continually drop quotes from NeoCal icons, but the Son has been subordinated and the Holy Spirit relegated to the back pew. Heck, they give Piper more airtime than Jesus!
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But he never wrote a systematic theology, and he apparently only preached one sermon and it was not even expository…
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CMT,
“Then there is the most glaring omission (to me). Where does he ever acknowledge the possibility that what deconstructing folks may need is not more books or more teaching or more rules to follow, but more Jesus?”
++++++++++++++
what would that look like?
what does Jesus do in this scenario?
is ‘jesus’ like a force or element? or like a spice rack?
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It may be so, although I am not educated in the area.
That is the reak question. Maybe at the point where the behavior is harming others. Just my opinion.
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elastigirl,
I’m not sure if you mean this rhetorically or not (dang interweb lack of nonverbal cues!). If you did excuse me for my excessive literalism!
What would more Jesus look like? For me it means stripping away religiosity and the pursuit of certainty and “rightness” that can so easily substitute for faith, and instead find Him as he really was and is.
For me personally, I have come to understand that I cannot have faith in a collection of doctrinal positions. What I can do is trust a Person. My goal now is to orient myself around that, not a bunch of to do lists about what a “good Christian” thinks and does.
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Ha.
World’s shortest systematic theology:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself”
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Bridge,
I cannot recommend Chuck DeGroat’s book “When Narcissism Comes to Church” highly enough if you’re interested in either NPD, or even personality disorders in general within the pastorate. For a synopsis from the author, just Google ‘Chuck DeGroat podcast’ and you’ll find one of the many interviews he gave when he released the book.
I’d throw some quotes at you from the book but my dad hasn’t returned it yet.
I will say he notes that the occurrence of NPD from behind the pulpit is much higher than in the general population, and it’s even higher among church planters. If you think back to the Acts 29 growth and numbers mumbo jumbo, it’s not hard to connect the dots.
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CMT,
“and instead find Him as he really was and is.
For me personally, I have come to understand that I cannot have faith in a collection of doctrinal positions. What I can do is trust a Person. My goal now is to orient myself around that”
++++++++++++++
thank you. yes, totally honest questions.
“trust a Person”… assuming you can trust a Person because you are a person,
how do you visualize this person? a 33-year old man? a glowing 33-year old man? other?
how do you orient yourself around this Person?
again, totally honest questions.
(i’m a lifelong christian. it’s kind of like when you repeat a word over and over again the word rearranges itself and you don’t know what it is anymore)
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I trust in his very literal body and person and in nothing more.
He’s not here right now, he’s someplace else, flesh, blood and bone.
If I were to receive a blood transfusion from him right now, even a miniscule amount, my whole genome would start repairing itself, ladder by ladder, helix by helix, no more infirmaties, I’d stop aging, and my date with death would be revoked.
How do I know this to be true?
I don’t know if it’s true, I just hope it is.
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Yes, I think that’s an accurate description. But then, just based in my observations, I have a different definition of “love” that I’m working with, that doesn’t involve quite so many power dynamics 🙂
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
I think there’s still an element of that around. I mean, one of the points of the small group movements at the last now three churches I went to was to create a less-intimidating (compared to big church on Sunday), homey environment to invite neighbors, coworkers, etc. Based simply on anecdotal evidence, I don’t know how well it works, but maybe that’s just me being an introvert. Seems like one-on-one relationships are the primary cause of conversions for people I happen to know who converted as adults (self included).
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Ha I think I know what you mean. You hear phrases like “put Jesus at the center” and “a personal relationship with Jesus” so often they stop having much meaning.
A glowing 33 yo man… hehe. I’m still figuring this out. Have you ever read a good book and find yourself mentally “hearing” the characters’ voices? I’ve been doing that with the gospels a lot. I’m just finding it very healing to hear Jesus be sarcastic and hyperbolic and confusing, but also take kids and women and outsiders totally seriously.
As far as orienting myself around Jesus, right now I’m at the stage of just letting myself believe I’m, well, safe? with him. I don’t know what comes after that tbh. Maybe there are just more and more layers of that.
It’s late where I’m at and I’m also unexpectedly emotional writing this, so I’m not sure I’m making sense. I’m curious why you’re curious, though! I didn’t expect anybody to even notice what i said at the bottom of the thread haha!
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CMT,
Ack idk why it copy pasted your whole comment haha
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“Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of olive oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.” (Micah 6:7-8)
Hm. No theologizing here, either.
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Muff Potter,
“If I were to receive a blood transfusion from him right now, even a miniscule amount, my whole genome would start repairing itself, ladder by ladder, helix by helix, no more infirmaties, I’d stop aging, and my date with death would be revoked.”
++++++++++++++++++
yes, i absolutely concur. the most powerful substance in the universe.
so, is it a practical matter for you?
is there affection, great or small, associated with it?
i ask because I’M SICK AND TIRED OF BEING PRESSURED TO LOVE JESUS. I HATE THE SONG JESUS LOVES ME. MY WHOLE LIFE I’VE HATED THAT SONG. EVEN AT AGE 3 or 4 I FELT MANIPULATED BY IT.
i appreciate and respect Jesus of Nazareth. i simply don’t have lovey dovey feelings at all. never have.
(actually i think i’m one of the few to actually say so)
i approach my faith practically. Because i can’t pretend.
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CMT,
“Have you ever read a good book and find yourself mentally “hearing” the characters’ voices?”
++++++++++++
yes, absolutely. I love Wilbur Smith books — i go so deep with his characters. (The Courtney Series: When The Lion Feeds, etc)
That’s a good analogy.
———–
“I’m just finding it very healing to hear Jesus be sarcastic and hyperbolic and confusing, but also take kids and women and outsiders totally seriously.”
++++++++
oh — you mean, the opposite of jo and joanne christian.
…i go to church, am treated like a pariah for expressing sarcastic humor while being treated not quite human. as if i require wearing a leash held by a man, any man.
————-
“’m not sure I’m making sense. I’m curious why you’re curious, though!”
++++++++++++
you’re making perfect sense. very honest & extemporaneous.
I like to hear about people’s experiences about God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
Their “true” experiences.
i have a lifetime of hearing “idealized” experiences described in meaningless parroted cliches because their brains have been taken over.
anyway, it helps me sort out Jesus Christ somewhat.
I start out with Kenny Loggins, circa 1978, and then make him glow,…. i have a hard time getting further
(well, he’s just too good looking… it’s just totally weird)
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I you “reply and quote” but with no text highlighted, the entire comment will be quoted. Highlight the sub-portion of a comment that you specifically want to reply to, then click ‘reply and quote’ and it should work
(though I find that occasionally the authorship of the quoted text is misattributed)
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Samuel Conner,
Yeah I have been able to do that before but it’s not working now. Idk my phone has been doing a few little odd things since I updated to iOS 15.
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elastigirl,
“ Their “true” experiences.
i have a lifetime of hearing “idealized” experiences described in meaningless parroted cliches because their brains have been taken over.”
This makes sense to me! I have been hearing that sort of churchy talk since literally before I can remember. I tried for a long time to attain those idealized experiences, and cycled thru a lot of shame and anxiety about not being able to. So dumping all those expectations has been part of what I would call deconstruction, for me.
I had to go google Kenny Loggins haha! Before my time I guess.
Btw I’m picturing a 3 yr old girl refusing to sing Jesus Loves Me and the little old lady Sunday school teacher getting all flustered haha. I have a child rather like this. If he does not see the point of something, he absolutely will not go along to get along!
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To them, “glory” is a Zero-Sum Game.
The only way to exalt One is to crush down everyone/everything else.
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Math does not seen to be one of their strenghs. They appear not to know that an unlimited quantity cannot be diminished through any finite operation. Their deity must have limited glory.
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CMT,
“I had to go google Kenny Loggins haha! Before my time I guess.”
+++++++++++
let it be known i was too young to know who kenny loggins was in 1978. he turned up on my radar when the movie Top Gun came out.
i’ve seen him concert since… a double concert with Michael McDonald at the Arlington Theater on State Street in Santa Barbara. He hit the high note in “Forever”. Everyone went wild.
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Yes it is, my previous comment was all about what I believe to be practical realities for me in my own domain.
Based on all that Jesus of Nazareth has done for me, yeah, I’d say there’s great affection tied up with it.
Jesus of Nazareth is my King and my God.
Lovey dovey feelings can change on a dime, just like they did after shouts of hosanna changed to ‘Crucify Him’ just a week later.
So no, neither do I have ‘lovey dovey’ feelings, they’re something different, something other, something supernatural.
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Again, the Zero-Sum Game:
Since there is only a limited amount to go around, the only way to get more for Me is to take it away from You. No such thing as a Win-Win situation, only Win-Lose.
Only thing worse is the Spite Game, where Lose-Lose becomes VERY acceptable.
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I still have his Nightwatch album on vinyl.
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i have Vox Humana on vinyl.
(as well as depeche mode, heaven 17, haircut 100 — now that’s a fun one! — Barry Manilow’s greatest hits…. many more…My Sharona, Pop Muzic, Born To Be Alive on 45s…)
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I was going to ask why, out of honest curiosity. I didn’t grow up with all the cutesy Christian children’s songs. Many strike me as weird, and others as Orwellian (“Be Careful What You See, Little Eyes”). But “Jesus Loves Me” is one I sing to my kids, and after seeing your comment, I wondered if I was scarring them for life.
Then I took a minute to look up the lyrics. Turns out the version I learned (and sing) stops after the first three verses. I think I’ll stick with that one. Awkward!
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Wild Honey,
The (Reply to this comment) isn’t working for me at the moment.
i just always felt such pressure to feel a certain way. but Jesus is invisible. i found it inconceivable to feel anything (beyond respect for a fact) about something invisible. but since it’s Jesus, the next inevitable feeling is a fair amount of guilt and shame but not feeling ‘the right feeling’.
even thought it was kindly meant, i felt manipulated.
but this is just me.
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These articles (and others I’ve read) are so timely as I’ve finally admitted to myself and others recently that I’m in a period of deconstruction. I think that most Christians have issues with the term because it’s been defined so narrowly. Deconstruction isn’t aways about “leaving the faith”. In fact, my journey has been strengthening my faith and refining the way I view and understand Scripture.
I think that a lot of big name pastors and authors get threatened by deconstruction because it often is a reflection on the broken systems that they are trying to prop up.
Side note: I was under a pastor for a while who used to regularly name sins and say “just stop it”…usually followed by blind applause from the crowd. Hollow words and hollow solutions.
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I’ve had this conversation around autism. Not so much about whether there’s a spectrum, as whether everyone’s on it. FWIW, I don’t think everyone is on the autistic spectrum, any more than I can be “zero weeks pregnant”.
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Nick,
It’s good to hear your voice, metaphorically speaking!
I don’t doubt that each of us is a bit narcissistic on our own little ways. 😉
(The quoting function doesn’t seem to be working in this thread.)
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The characteristic attitude of someone who’s spent their entire lives life Giving Orders and Ruling by Diktat.
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“SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE! FUEHRER! FUEHRER! FUEHRER!”
— Leon Uris, Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin, describing a Nuremberg “Revival Meeting”