This infrared image taken by NASA’s Spitzer Space Telescope shows a spiral galaxy called Messier 81. Image credit: NASA / JPL-Caltech.
“All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
I like to do this from time to time. Each of these items is of interest to me and the final item sums up how some of us feel when it comes to leaving the church.
The SBC Executive Committee stalls on waiving privilege but will fund the SATF’s pick of Guidepost Solutions to do the investigation.
No big surprise here. Scott Shaver, who hangs with this crowd, has been beating this drum at TWW over the last few days.
The Washington Post posted SBC Executive Committee agrees to pay for abuse review, stalls on waiving privilege by Bob Smietana who runs Religion News Services which gets a daily visit from me. I find it interesting that national media is focusing on this story.
So what’s the deal? The Sex Abuse Task Force has asked the Executive Committee to forgo their legal protection under the law. This means that they cannot hide behind the broad back of lawyers who are probably lining up for a piece of this pie. However, they will pay for the Guidepost Solutions *investigation.*
Members of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Executive Committee agreed to spend $1.6 million to fund an outside review into how the committee has handled claims of sexual abuse over the past two decades.
I have made my stance known. Unless I can understand why an organization that does opposition research and defends men like Weinstein and Strauss -Kahn along with exonerating Bryan Loritts, I cannot in good conscience support this organization. Yes, I know Rachel Denhollander supports them. I like her but this I don’t get. Is this something she learned about in her legal training? Who knows? I’ll keep on learning about why this group is worth the tithes of the good people of the SBC.
It should come as no surprise that the EC has stalled on waiving their privilege as requested by the SATF. Roland Slade, chairman of the Executive Committee,
made an impassioned plea to committee members not to leave Nashville without making progress on setting up the investigation. He pointed out that local Southern Baptist church delegates — known as messengers — instructed the committee to fund the independent investigation and to cooperate with that investigation.
Guidepost Solutions CEO is making her plea.
Committee members also heard from Julie Myers Wood, CEO of Guidepost Solutions, which has been hired by the task force to investigate the Executive Committee. The international consulting firm has become a go-to option for sex abuse investigations among prominent evangelical institutions.
Wood, who described herself as a Baylor University graduate who had a long history with the SBC, told committee members waiving privilege is common for institutions like the SBC that are facing public scrutiny.
I find this comment particularly interesting.
The international consulting firm has become a go-to option for sex abuse investigations among prominent evangelical institutions.
What in the world? Why? Is this because they are trustworthy or because they know how to defend the indefensible? Darned if I know.
Julie Roys presented a podcast and post regarding the Fracturing of Evangelicalism and Bethlehem Baptist which was John Piper
The audio is at the top of the post and the transcript is about halfway down.
On this edition of The Roys Report, we explore the answers with Michael Graham and Skyler Flowers, two pastors who have authored a groundbreaking article entitled, “The Six-Way Fracturing of Evangelicalism.”
Julie also presents new evidence, including leaked emails, revealing the deep divisions over racial and cultural issues at Bethlehem Baptist, which have led to major upheaval at the church. In some ways, what’s happening at Bethlehem is unique and spurred by alleged abuse. But in other ways, the factions at Bethlehem are a microcosm of a larger fracturing throughout the evangelical movement.
Even Piper couldn’t ride to the rescue. I believe that the fracturing of John Piper’s church is the beginning of a great many splits in churches of the evangelical world. it might be a bit of a rough go of it in the years to come.
Julie Roys presented Warren Cole’s post: Just How Broken Is the Bible Translation Industry? Yep, even here the almighty buck reigns. This one really surprised me.
At a recent meeting of Bible translation organizations in Newport Beach, Calif., one of the speakers stood at the podium and asked the 50 or so leaders there a series of simple questions: How long does it take to translate the Bible? And how much does it cost to translate the Bible into a new language? How many Bible translations have been completed in the past year? How many will be completed in the coming year?
Uh oh. Apparently “it depends.” There are hundreds and hundreds of groups and they rake in the bucks.
In total, these organizations take in about $500 million a year from donors
…They’ve been taking money at that rate for years, if not decades. By far the largest of the Bible translation organizations is Wycliffe Bible Translators, which took in more than $227 million in 2020.
Would you believe that maybe billions? are involved? I do.
The American Bible Society works with and often funds other translation organizations. It has annual revenue approaching $100-million, and it has an endowment and other assets that top $700-million. Bottom line: There is no shortage of money in the Bible translation industry.
Are these groups lying to the donors?
Wycliffe Associates (not the same as Wycliffe Bible Translators) have claimed to translate the New Testament in a matter of weeks for less than $100,000. It is important to note that many of these claims have been discredited.
Are we getting a bang for the buck? Nope.
The simple math is this: $500 million – even if you account for some revenue double-counting, and set aside money for administrative and fundraising costs — should pay for hundreds of Bible translations per year. Funding at this rate over the course of a decade should have produced thousands of Bible translations.
So…did it? The bleak answer: Not even close. In fact, the actual results deviate from this reasonable expectation by a factor of 10 or more.
Look at how they spin things.
Wycliffe Bible Translators just sent out a press release announcing the completion of the 700th Bible translation. The 700th translation this decade? This century? No, the 700th Bible translation of all time!
So do you think Wycliff is doing much for the money?
Keep in mind that in 2011, less than 700 Bible translations had ever been completed, which meant that more than 6,000 remained.
… 2011, the organization’s annual revenue was about $120 million. Today, it is about $220 million. In short, Wycliffe Bible Translators has taken in just under $2 billion in the past decade. Using the illumiNations metric mentioned above — $35 per verse — $2 billion should have translated the complete Bible into about 1,800 new languages.
Darn it. My husband used to do some medical work for this group. How much did they get for their donations?
Wycliffe Bible Translators’ 2020 Annual Report said it published 88 “scriptures” during the year. It also adds this: “Scriptures published…consists of full Bibles, New Testaments, and Scripture portions.” How many full Bibles? We can’t get anyone to say, but probably less than 20.
In my opinion, we’ve been had. Read the whole article. Make sure you take your blood pressure meds.
Finally, Christian Post published Leaving Church. It appears we are fractured.
I think many of us would find ourselves in the following statement.
A few weeks ago, in a blog at Mere Orthodoxy, Pastor Michael Graham offered a new way to categorize how Christians are reorganizing amidst the chaos.
Long gone are the days when believers automatically joined the church down the street. Even denominational loyalties, theological convictions, and worship styles are not as important as they used to be. More and more often, suggests Graham, church shoppers are prioritizing political and social convictions.
Driving past six churches, some big and shiny, to find one faithful to the Gospel is a tragic reality for many.
But the authors are simplistic in how they view those of us who chose to travel to find something deeper. And yes, many of us understand that the church should be viewed as family. It’s just that some families are dysfunctional and have stopped showing the lovingkindness that should be present in a real family. No, I cannot change a whole church. I tried and it was ugly.
For as much time and effort we spend evaluating a church we plan to leave or join, we should spend at least that much on evaluating the motives and the criteria we employ in leaving or joining a church. Churches that misuse or rewrite the Bible, that choose the approval of men over God, or that serve temporal power more than the Kingdom of God should be left. At the same time, the biblical metaphors matter. We are family, not isolated gatherings of consumers. Issues matter because truth matters and morality matters, not because they are political hot buttons
Churches with thousands of members whose children are entertained by climbing walls are not family. Churches who choose to shoe young earth creationism or a political lineup down our throats with nary a thought for the alternative are not behaving like a family. Do I need to mention the covering up of sex abuse in the church which is one reason I chose to go on this journey?
There are very few of us who go on this journey who are not in search of the truth. Thankfully, in my case, I found a home, a real home, but I rejected quite a few potential *families* before I got there. I plan to write about one of those rejected churches I hung out in on Friday. Things aren’t going well so it’s time to talk about it.
“All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes, a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
1 x 1 = 1? Maybe?
Afterburne,
It’s gratifying to see how mathematically proficient our readership is. 🙂
Beaucoup bucks is what it’s all about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpbbuaIA3Ds
Haha. Might not want to ask me for something too much more complex that that. Wouldn’t want to dash your expectations. 😉
Love the Tolkien quote!
“Driving past six churches, some big and shiny, to find one faithful to the Gospel is a tragic reality for many.”
+++++++++++++++
‘to find one faithful to the Gospel’….
good grief, every church thinks they are.
i guess michael graham thinks he and his ilk are the only right ones. everyone else is wrong.
there’s the real problem.
(i was going to swing ‘tragic’ back around on him, but it’s just too strong a word — better to reserve it for true suffering. ‘elitist nonsense’ are better words.)
“In my opinion, we’ve been had. Read the whole article. Make sure you take your blood pressure meds.” – from the post, regarding Bible translating, which nowadays could mainly be accomplished with technology.
For some, missions & outreach is a racket to take a slice (maybe take the whole pie) for admin running the program. Saw this overseas, as missionaries back in the day. Some missionaries were there to build their dynasty, their best life, and keep themselves in business … forever.
A missionary’s job, and maybe most ministries, is to work one’s way out of a job instead of co-dependency. Share the Gospel and move on. Do sustainable ministry and then move on, in the case of non-profits.
Regarding Bible translation, I agree that financial accountability is necessary. However, I felt the article didn’t quite give an accurate portrayal of Bible translation. It doesn’t depend on how much money you throw at it – it takes a lot of hard work by trained people, even with the help of computers these day, especially for unwritten languages in poorer countries. (I’ve studied linguistics so I have some idea.) Also Martin Luther isn’t a good example for how fast it can be done – he knew both the source and the destination languages already, and he was in hiding from his enemies at the time, with probably not much else to do.
From the “Leaving Church” article: “However, consumerism is a problem for church-goers, because it is first a problem for churches. Pastors face enormous pressure to fill pews and minimize conflict. Often, they are hired for their fidelity to the Scriptures and tasked with discipling a congregation, but are evaluated by completely different metrics. If you ‘give the people what they want,’ it will rarely be the hard truths of the Gospel.”
I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. Why is the blame automatically placed on the church-goer, here? Pastors are not immune to tribalism and divisiveness, either, and claiming it as a “hard truth of the Gospel.”
As an example, I quote my former pastor in a group text my husband happened to be part of recently. If this doesn’t make it past the pugs sniff test, I get it. I am creating lacunae so it’s not obvious if the pastor is anti-abortion or anti-death penalty, so he could theoretically be from either political party:
“The gospel is about life. The gospel is not about opinion or politics. It is truth and not opinion. God creates life and the vote to kill the life God creates is not Biblical or Godly. This is not about political issues it’s a gospel issue. It’s a defining mark of a true followers of Jesus. Followers of Christ don’t side with political parties… they side with Jesus and life. The true Christian proclaims life in Christ and votes to protect the life God creates… vote for life. Please don’t vote to kill and say it glorifies God!”
It’s the whole black-and-white tone of “this is how Jesus would have voted, it’s not politics it’s GOSPEL, and if you don’t vote this way you’re not a TRUE BELIEVER” is what frustrates me.
To which I reply, “You foolish Galatians!”
And the whole “don’t be too picky” argument… Sorry/not sorry, but after having experienced outright deceit and defamation of character at our last two churches… I’m being a lot pickier about the next one.
I just want to point out that while I’m sure there’s waste and self-perpetuation among the Bible societies, language is *complicated* and all the “easy” languages pretty much have been translated.
What’s left are:
* oral languages, i.e., they don’t have a written form.
* dialects, both with and without written forms. Chinese, for example, has dozens of dialects, many of which are mutually incomprehensible.
* creoles and pidgins, which may be dialects but may also be separate languages
A lot of these languages are only spoken by a few thousand people, too.
Then there’s the path to getting a translation–first linguists and anthropologists need to document the language. If the language doesn’t have a written form, one has to be created, and then taught to the speakers of the language, on top of doing the translation.
Finally, there’s the inevitable aging of translations, where due to additional learning or contact with other people groups or simply the passage of time, the older translation becomes less intelligible or maybe not even readable. For example, Japanese translations completed prior to 1945 likely use many kanji (Chinese ideograms) no longer in use. In fact, the Japanese government has a list of 2,136 kanji (as of 2010) that can be used in official government documents and newspapers. Thing is, there isn’t a kanji for, say, “computer,” so the katakana syllabary is used: コンピューター. There are *thousands* of words that have been borrowed from English, German and other languages, rewritten in katakana and a lot of times shortened. So, for example パソコン “pasocon” or “personal computer.” But the core of Japanese continues to be kanji with hiragana suffixes and a word order that is downright alien to English. The Japanese government generally seems content with all this borrowing (at least they don’t get *weird* about it like the French do, to wit, the fracas over “le weekend” entering from English).
And I haven’t even gotten to political issues in translation, which I will just skip. My whole point is that translation is complex and complicated by many factors. And those factors can add money. But probably not as much money that is pouring in.
That said, do we really need any more English translations?
Arlene Peterson,
We could prolly volley this into outer space … anticipated pushback. This post lifts some of the lacey curtain of the sacred work of translation – personally I LOVE and would like everyone to have the Bible.
Agree, takes work & training (like most professions/careers), while technology has advanced the process and the lifestyle in the field. (The work/travel/venues/sacrifice are not as challenging as formerly.)
Agree, some are conscientious.
Agree with the article and Dee’s point, some are not – eye-witnessed in the field. Bold to put this in print, IMHO.
A keen eye on donating is paramount.
Thanks, Dee, for doing this blog without collecting donations; appreciate the hard work you are doing out of a passion and empathy for the downtrodden found even in our comparatively privileged society. That youth pastor driving a girl who loves Jesus down a dirt road for his blow job, that world famous Xian apologist importing sex slaves from his home country for his personal vice, that theologian on a pastoral tiny island off the UK with his own preacher’s harem among the flock, that world famous evangelist’s grandson grifting parishioners’ money and wives for his needs … rooting out the deadliest of sins in our church society. Ever grateful for TWW.
Yes, in the Congo women are gang-raped by militias unlike anything here. But for a woman, trafficking is all the same anywhere. Moreover, maybe some of the billions going to support translation could be addressed to the plight of women, everywhere. Right now, there’s a gofundme for advocates attending a USA ’22 church convention to address church predation. Lots of work needing investment.
Bernie May is the founder of The Seed Company and a former president of Wycliffe. He’s a personal friend of mine and a man of great integrity who even into his late 80s is extremely dedicated to and passionate about Bible translation for those people groups who don’t have access to God’s Word. Mainly because there are is no written words in their language, or their government prohibits it and the translation must be done on the sly. Here’s an article from a different perspective than that of the article in the Roys Report, which I hope some of you will read. https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/philanthropy-magazine/article/fall-2016-2-million-dollars-1-billion-souls
56 spoken languages (Han, Cantonese, Hakka, Shanghai, etc.)
Many more dialects (Toisan, etc.)
One 5k-yr-old written hanzi language, unified by Qin in 221bc, and simplified by Hanban under Mao in 1949ad. Readable either way, however. Done deal. Traditional and Simplified versions of the entire Bible. (Do all PRC citizens read hanzi? Increasingly with universal public education since 1986.)
Leah Jacobs,
Read the article, thx:
“The Obolo Bible has had a profound effect on his people … The majority of the project’s cost was covered by donations from the Obolo people themselves, through local churches, community organizations, and individual donors.”
So there’s that. Sustainability and sourced onsite without overseas philanthropic intervention.
The article also gives examples of how technology has improved deliverance: time, cost, effort.
Very gung ho article, though. The Roys’ Report and Dee’s post here remind donors to beware and look beyond the “gung ho”, warm fuzzies. The RZers should have.
Ava Aaronson,
“Sustainability and sourced onsite without overseas philanthropic intervention.”
+++++++++++++++++
well, that might put the bible translation fund raising organizations out of a job.
…this industry that has arisen solely to fund raise (after they take their cut, that is).
it just strikes me as lucrative (& exploitative) job creation.
makes me think of pharmaceutical pbm’s (pharmacy benefit managers) — an industry of unnecessary middlemen who charge a lot for a bottle of pills and reimburse the pharmacy a small amount.
.
.
per warren cole smith of ministrywatch: “many U.S. Bible translation organizations do not actually translate Bibles. They are fundraising and project management organizations. They pass grants back and forth between themselves.”
The news regarding Wycliffe is disheartening.
In the mid-90s I attended their Summer Institute of Linguistics, IIRC in Grand Forks, North Dakota. It was held on the campus of a public university, using dorm, kitchen and classrooms that were vacant for the Summer. It was clearly a budget operation, but of good quality. 10 weeks of intensive instruction + room and board cost about $600. The students volunteered here and there to help keep costs down. I have a fond memory of mixing bread dough in a giant Hobart mixer.
—
I hope this is not the case for WBT, but I worry that the non-profit sector is a whole may be losing its way and may be becoming more an avenue for personal advancement than a way of accomplishing worthwhile tasks that neither government nor for-profit sector are interested in.
It may be another example of the wisdom of the biblical command to “trust not in princes.” The powerful, of every stripe, will generally disappoint.
SBC Sex Abuse … “Be sure your sin will find you out!” (Numbers 32:23)
Bethlehem Baptist Fracture … “If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord” (Acts 5:39)
Bible Translation … “I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb” (Revelation 7:9)
Big Bucks in the Bible Translation Industry … “Stop making My Father’s house a place of business” (John 2:16)
Leaving Church … “Come out from her, O my people, lest you become accomplices in her sins and must share in her punishment” (Revelation 18:4 Phillips)
Indeed, “all that glitters is not gold”
dee,
Glad to know that I am “hanging out” with people I do not know and whom I’ve never met. The rhetorical embellishments tossed around by some of these discernment shock jocks is hilarious.
NEW PORSCHE BEACH?
(It’s an OC beach city, and in the SoCal real estate milieu that means EXPENSIVE.)
OK, they can afford New Porsche Beach.
Though what sticks in my mind about Bible Translation companies is something my writing partner told me about one. That their actual purpose is to preach to all nations (including uncontacted tribes like North Sentinelese) just so that when all peoples have been preached The Four Spiritual Laws/Romans Road (even if no one walks the aisle) then Christ will return to End the World. That was it. All those uncontacted tribes were just (like you and me) pieces to move around on the Rapture Ready gameboard.
Only reason these languages are “dialects” is they’re all spoken in a single Empire. Of which the writing system is the TRUE Imperial Language.
Max,
Problem is that “when they come out from her” they never actually leave.
Do we need any more with the same brand name (TM) but a 2019 model, a 2020 model, a 2021 model, each with more lies added, replacing each other on your hand-held device?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
IIRC, this was pretty explicit in CCC’s efforts to recruit people into ministry.
—
The thought occurs that theologies can serve “anxiety reduction” agendas. Predestinarianism alleviates one from the guilt of responsibility for the damnation of the people you didn’t preach to. Various flavors of preterism probably can function similarly in terms of the pressure of perceived obligation to hasten Christ’s return.
Ah, Japanese. Orphan Language with NO relatives (except maybe Zuni).
One of YouTube’s linguistic channels that emphasized written languages described Japanese as one of the most complicated and difficult-to-learn writing systems. Thres separate writing systems (kanji, hiragana, and katakana) all mashed together, with no visible word breaks.
(They also put Tibetan as the most complicated dictionary ever.)
Samuel Conner,
IIRC???
I think the calculations on Bible translation are overly simplistic, and show the authors lack of knowledge in the field he is criticizing. It is also unfair to suggest so many doing the work are simply building their own kingdoms. This is painting with too broad a brush.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
If I Remember Correctly
Regarding the waiver of privilege, SBCVoices (which I know that some here have lingering questions concerning) has a great article from Tuesday, Sept. 21 titled “Observations from a Task Force Member.” https://sbcvoices.com/observations-from-a-task-force-member/
A notable line from the article:
The issue should be moot in that the EC was directed to waive privilege. The chose not to follow the directive voted on by the Messengers, which has lasting, and negative, implications. In the words of the op-ed: Please understand the implications of this. They have just opened up the SBC to MASSIVE liability. In every lawsuit against the SBC thus far, the SBC has been able to argue that we are a bottom-up organization, and therefore the SBC itself has no authority over or liability for what happens at the local church level. That ended today. In every subsequent legal proceeding, plaintiffs can now use this vote to show that we are, in fact, a top-down organization and that the EC is in charge, not the churches.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
That’s “If I recall correctly”
I think of you and other TWW readers when I think on it.
Arlene Peterson,
I agree that not all of the difficulties involved in Bible translation was presented. However, I don’t believe that the money is being well used. The marketing end of things appears to cover up the real story.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Great comment. I agree with the plethora of English translations. They usually occur when some dude doesn’t like women getting too uppity so they discover a new translation to control them.
Just read the Graham/Flowers article that is mentioned in the transcript of the Roys podcast on the fracturing of evangelicalism.
https://mereorthodoxy.com/six-way-fracturing-evangelicalism
The authors end on a hopeful note:
“The church is not held together by its own strength but by the unbreakable bond of the unity of the Spirit.”
This is true as theology/theory, but I think that in practice, that unity requires a significant measure of “like-mindedness” and “having the same love”. And, granting what is generally regarded to be at stake — matters of ultimate destiny — I don’t see how the hostility and disdain of the subgroups for each other could de-escalate.
I think that the “unbreakable bond” has been broken.
This gives a different perspective to the Roys Report.
Max,
Thank you for this comment.
I sadly agree. Tomorrow I will write about the fracturing of a once beautiful church that I once attended and loved.
Yes. Until we get it right. GDRFC
As to your other points I fully agree. Someone who takes their family with them to live in a remote village somewhere needs more than just a salary. They deserve access to modern medical care and trips back home to visit families. The translators are not all ascetic monks working with quill pens and parchment.
And now days to help things along many of these operations have a computer support staff (which might be only one person) who keeps the tools they use to work on things running. Anyone here want to setup a LAN in a remote area with the only Internet connection being a burst situation with a satellite cell phone?
The path for oral to written to teach it to the speakers to now write a bible to check it for mistakes to …. can eat up a lot of time, people, and money.
And somethings I’ve discovered is that most “Mericans” don’t get that most of the world speaks a language that doesn’t operate like our English. (Not even in Australia, New Zealand, or the UK.) At all. Grammar. Verb tense. Cultural clues. Male/femalee. Etc. There is no such thing as a word for word translation that is “accurate” to the message in most cases.
Looping back to “do we need another English translation?”. At least every few decades we need to address this as Merican (and other varieties) English drifts. If you wait too long you get people trying to cram KJV into modern English and confusing more often than enlightening.
I had the same reaction when I read that. I’ve just spent close to 9 months searching for a church. My wife and I were close to choosing an EFCA church close by. It met all my criteria. The staff also stressed how they were all about the gospel.
But…almost the entire staff were Calvinist (including the youth pastor who was really hardcore), and the worship music production was far below the quality I’d expect to see in a church that size. But, they were all about “the gospel”.
It kind of woke me up to the fact that all my searching, and all my criteria, if it led me this EFCA church, probably wasn’t working for me.
So, I think I’m going to the “big shiny” church in town. As far as I can tell they’re all about the gospel, too. They just don’t boast about it. And every week, the hour long service has excellent music and pretty good preaching that is actually convicting. And, they realize an hour long Sunday morning production doesn’t equal church, so their main priority is small groups and service.
Seems good enough for me.
Are Wycliffe Bible Translators USA a different organisation from Wycliffe Bible Translators based in the UK?
So very true. Dudes like them not only hate women, but they’re also scared you-know-whatless of their primal power. Scripture can then be used as a gloss for their misogyny to make it more palatable to the general run of folks.
Probably the biggest take-away is that they can also claim that their shtick comes directly from the big boss upstairs, and if it originates from the big kahuna himself, it’s gotta be right.
Right?
I heartily agree! And they need help from trained native-language speakers. Also, the Wycliffe Bible Translator missionaries we have known over many years have been hard-working, humble, and kind people, from an in-between missionary couple teaching Linguistics at Cornell, to a life-long single woman still translating in Africa after 53 yrs of work (for her it’s a language ‘cluster’ which needs multiple translations, not just 1 ‘language’).
Scott Shaver,
scott, why show up being a jerk?
Short and sweet answer?
No.
Not anymore than we need a new chocolate chip cookie recipe.
I don’t understand your comment, so perhaps you will kindly clarify. You have felt free to comment here. Does it embarrass you to be associated with TWW commenters? Are you under the impression that the rest of us meet around a big table? That would be most convenient for listening to Dee the Discernment Shock Jock. Maybe Dee will ask her hairdresser to give her the Howard Stern coiffure, LOL. 😉
Paul K,
“As far as I can tell they’re all about the gospel, too.”
+++++++++++++
i really wonder what in the world this means (“all about the gospel”).
it’s kind of like coke and pepsi each competing as being ‘the real thing’.
when in reality they’re so darn similar…it just comes down to preferences on texture and sweetness.
as if one cola only could teach the world to sing and the other would be utterly incapable.
when the very longtime pastor of my childhood church (a good church) retired, a new pastor (affiliated with the church) was hired as senior pastor.
he brought in his own people as staff. The name of the church immediately changed to add the tag line “A Gospel Church”.
it was confusing. i found it offensive. it was as if to say,
“Sorry, what you had before was clueless on the gospel and completely missed the mark. in fact, only WE understand the gospel — no other church for miles and miles has any concept of the gospel. See, we’re ‘A Gospel Church’!”
so silly.
i sent an email to one of pastors expressing how confusing and offensive it was. shortly after that they took off that tag line. i doubt i was the only one who responded.
i marvel that otherwise intelligent people wage these ‘gospel wars’ and rivalries, missing the fact that it’s as silly as the marketing ploy of one cola purporting to be “real” and accusing the other cola being false.
elastigirl,
In my experience, being about “the gospel” was used as an excuse to tolerate low standards in multiple areas of ministry.
For example, I once asked a pastor to see if he could help improve the signage advertising a men’s retreat. I had worked hard with other people helping to plan the study sessions for the retreat. The sign that was put up was four pieces of computer paper taped together with a handwritten message with misspelled words. The pastor replied, “It’s not a gospel issue.” I never said it was.
It’s like people believe if they just believe the right things in increasing specificity then they’re part of the “in” group.
I’m preaching to myself here, too.
Samuel Conner,
Yea, I remember CCC saying something similar: “the best thing you can do with your life is “go on staff” since you will be saving souls”…. Everything else will burn
There is excellent well-intentioned ministry that serves for a time, then mission accomplished, needs to fold or pivot or restructure.
Both Dee and Roys make good points. Time to wisely assess the work and allocations.
An international student lived with us and a church sewing group gave him a quilt. His father is a billionaire.
Friend,
I am referring to my name and the reference to my “hanging out” in the headline and article for this thread, respectfully.
Scott Shaver,
Dee mentions a list of people whom I “hang with”. News to me, but no big deal.
“It also adds this: “Scriptures published…consists of full Bibles, New Testaments, and Scripture portions.” How many full Bibles? We can’t get anyone to say, but probably less than 20.“
Why shouldn’t there be robust priorities as far as transparency, accountability and oversight of such an org? It isn’t bad manners to ask for precise answers as to exactly where your outreach-intended $$$ is going; in fact, it would make sense to have the key information showcased so as to inspire confidence and also serve as a check and balance against grievous wolves and hirelings (those are still primary concerns, right?).
This is especially the case given the track record of the industrial complex that could give worthwhile outreach efforts a bad name. Also, merely pointing to another largely faceless organization cast as a watchdog or navigator for charity can carry its own issues of sufficiency.
A real best practice would be to make the org’s efforts and expenditures extremely transparent. There are scores of government jobs for which the exact salary is printed and searchable; why that level of granularity seems to be the exception not the rule in the industrial complex appears to be telling.
Hi Scott. If my memory serves me right, you were a commenter on Peter Lumpkin’s blog years ago. Yeah I came out from her and still throw lifelines to others.
Why? The one true church – New Calvinism – has already issued the final word for the Word in its ESV translation. What more can be said?!
Working-in-the-world people want to know where their money is going. Church work people who live off the donations of working people should joyfully, truthfully, provide this info to donors.
Agree with the broad brush theory, both ways. Too broad in saying all are grifters… too broad to say all are accountable with cute little warm fuzzy anecdotes.
As others note here, follow the money, expect transparency, and hold receivers accountable.
Lots of fundraising going on among Christians. A good cause around every corner, every night of the week.
The Bible Translation thing has been in our current age a popular scam. It is perfect, just like raising funds for “persecution.” No one gets to see where the money ends up. We are just supposed to trust the guys out there doing the fundraising. Like Gospel for Asia a tiny percent goes into things that look like what the whole is supposed to be spent on. What we need is investigative journalists to look into how wealthy the people on the boards, the presidents and CEO’s who are doing the fundraising actually how. How many mansions, yachts and other luxuries are supported and where the money actually goes. Clearly very little actually makes it to what the money is raised for. Pure scams they have become.
Like most overseas big ministries. You got people like Graham taking millions from his charity so he can live a lifestyle of the rich and famous. You cannot trust people that you think you know, so why trust complete strangers with Mammon? It is the God of this World after all…
Love having different translations. Would other languages be so blessed.
When a friend accepts the Lord as their Savior and begins their faith walk, we bring them to the local Christian bookstore. We show them the various translations and paraphrases, have them read Psalm 23 from each, then pick one. We purchase that Bible as a gift and encourage them to read the Bible and pray every day for themselves, no middleman.
A missionary in our home once said that they believed the US is blessed due to the amount of Bible study, with lots of translations and paraphrases.
We began with giving our children illustrated Bibles, until they reached the age where they wanted “all the words”. They then picked their favorite translation or paraphrase or study Bible.
Daily personal Bible study & prayer does a lot to keep the cults & cult personalities at bay, IMHO. Nowadays, playing an audio Bible is great.
Don’t care much for trying to translate the Bible into every language (not being a Christian), but, as others have pointed out, not all translations will take the same amount of work. For some languages you will need to learn them and develop a writing system, for many you may need to create words for concepts used in the Bible (and have a consensus on what those words should be, ‘atonement’ seems to have been created for that purpose in English). Will they be doing the translation from the original languages (Hebrew/Aramaic/Koine Greek) or from English. Remember that each translation will likely introduce ambiguity or specificity that wasn’t in the original language (for instance one can write in English “my cousin is visiting” and the reader won’t know the gender of the cousin, in French it would be obvious or so convoluted a sentence as to imply that the writer doesn’t know what gender the cousin is). The most useful group seems to be SIL International because they try to contribute to the overall knowledge about languages (and make some rather useful fonts); a lot of their financial info seems to be available.
Muff Potter,
Yes! 🙂
‘Let the fire of the Holy Spirit descend ….’
I would have said the same thing until we visited a Lavender farm on Whidbey Island some years ago. They had chocolate chip cookies with a bit of Lavender in them.
Oh my gosh, talk about next level cookies!
However, rightfully so, “adding to” wouldn’t fly in a Bible translation. Which is why I cringe whenever I hear someone quoting the Passion “translation” which is nothing more than one man’s theological bent on scripture.
I thought the Koran was “the final word for the Word”…
In Group or (Lure of the) Inner Ring?
1) “Souls(TM)”, NOT People.
2) “Everything else will burn” except for God’s Speshul Pets (guess who?)
3) Does anyone else notice just how Depressing and Futile that is?
“Just like Grinning nihilism, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
And yet again, focusing on The Hereafter to the point the Here-and-Now is destroyed.
Yet we’re living in the here-and-now. It’s the Reality we can see, hear, touch, taste.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Just a couple days ago I read CS Lewis’ “The Inner Ring”. I had heard it referenced so many times, but hadn’t actually read the original. Wow, it’s so good.
Burwell Stark,
Oh well. Precedents are made to be broken. Glad to see the ExComm stand without waiving. These “messengers” are the least accountable group in the SBC and they’ve been pulling stupid public 3 day stunts for years now. Why should a handful be allowed to burn things down on the CP dimes of those who don’t do conventions?
Pickle do not have souls regardless of what SBC messengers say.
“Sometimes a half-dozen or more Bible translation organizations will claim credit for the Bible translation work done by a small, local translation team.”
I think the problems are twofold and bad trends have been introduced in recent years. Some people have been glad to acquire their language in a written form (they input into the process) which they use for purposes other than religion additionally. Some of the organisations concerned had some staff of balanced and well-informed faith and belief, when I heard from them. I’ve mixed with linguists and know that language work when well done is a deep and intricate matter.
On the one hand we have braggarts of two kinds, “we can do it more cheapskately than thou” plus “we’ve got to make headline-grabbing promises about our so called goals”, so as to compete for under-educated superstitious small donors’ funds. On the other hand we’ve got an excessively circular and bloated model of collaborating enabling excessive credit to be claimed for what was sometimes good calibre work on a realistic scale.
The most cynical are sucking the life out of the true workers by whipping up hysteria with their plasticky so called “bible museums”, and those workers’ proper protectors aren’t getting enough help to stop those leeches. It’s genuinely difficult for supportive bodies to discern HOW to know which organisations should be criticised / sanctioned.
Then business modellers in every field add layers of hoop-jumping as part of their own professional raison d’etre, SOME of which MAY not add MUCH to worthwhile regulation. Perhaps banks and lawyers may (out of the BEST of motives) intimate that this is required. Of course the christian public forget to pray, now that prayer is not chic.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Material dialectic.
Scott Shaver,
I walked out of it, but it didn’t walk out of me. I nowadays eschew blame when the fault is theirs.
WBT posts its Form 990s at its website. Interestingly, they did the “we are a church” thing with the IRS, which exempts them from the obligation to file Form 990, but they do file it. Their senior officer compensation levels look very reasonable to me, definitely way “below market” compared to secular for-profit enterprises of that size, and I’m confident well below the “market” for senior officers of religious for-profit entities operating under cover of religion, and also (I suspect) “below market” for secular non-for-profit enterprises of that size.
It seems that the “Iron Law of Institutions” hasn’t had its way with them yet.
For translating in a society not familiar with Christianity, there is also the not-straightforward “work” of building relationships and trust in the community (and possibly teaching them to read written language); you want people to be interested in and want to read the translations when they are done!
Wycliffe has had that office in Newport Beach since I was a kid fresh out of college hoping to be a translator. I’m sure the land is worth a lot now but it was significantly cheaper way back then.
Was Bethlehem Baptist orginally beautiful?
The awareness of how they treat women suffering with DV was public over a decade ago. To those who decry how they abuse their clergy, the latest fracturing, where were you when BBC shunned abused wives? What does it say about these clergymen and their wives that they would even sign up with this misogynist group with misogynistic theology? Clearly, publicly, anti-women… over years. Violating women is never a good look and never “just business as usual”.
What do they say about Germany and the Nazis? “I didn’t stand up for others, and then they came after me …” This is exactly what happened to the BBC clergy. What did they expect? It’s OK to disrespect women as long as we’re dignified? Doesn’t work that way.
Retired from Bible business,
Agreed. Just because there’s money doesn’t mean there’s grift. I’ve been a cross cultural worker for 30 years now. It is a difficult life. Yes there are those in certain countries (I actually know of a few in Haiti) who are in ministry for the money but in East Asia where I live don’t know anybody getting rich off Bible translation or any other kind of ministry. What I do see is a lot of hard working people who suffer many heartaches, and challenges. And these days most people don’t stay longer than five years because the life is just not comfortable. The old-timers used to tell me it took 10 years until a person was really fluent not just in the language but in deep cultural understanding. I’ve seen that to be true. Note: Ten years investment takes a lot of money.
It seems to me if anyone has a specific accusation about a particular leader, or a misuse of money on the part of a regional Bible translation group, let them bring it forward. Until then my firsthand eyewitness experience with dozens of translators and Wycliffe SE Asia suggest a very different story of hard working careful people trying to correctly translate the word of God with no corresponding accumulation of honor or riches.
Fisher,
It seems you are describing boots on the ground. There are the comfy administrative units back home to assess, equally dependent on donor dollars of working people.
For example, J.I. Packer and the ESV.
Agreed, boots on the ground in remote parts of the world have a passion beyond stuffing their wallets.
I’ve often wondered which would be more difficult: teaching tribes English to read the multitude of existing Bibles or translating the Bible into their own language?
This is frustrating. People here are still having a problem with differentiating between people who are raising money and those who do the work. There are way too many people raising money and likely too few actually doing the hard work of translations. Cole is running a watchblog site where the bottom-line is follow the money. This should be the last place where we criticize someone for being shrewd. He is pointing out that people are lying in the fundraising. They are exaggerating and showing zero transparency. They are talking out of both sides of their mouth! These are all red flags. And yet we get tripped up by details that do not matter in this picture.
The people actually doing the work are not bad for the most part. The people who are fundraising are obviously scammers like KP Yohannan and His Gospel for Asia fraud. Is this so hard to understand? Do we of all people want to argue for excuses from the fundraisers? And any org that takes in 100 of millions a year is going to attract conmen like flies. They will do anything they can to get access to that huge pile of Mammon. Yet money is not the problem, the problem is finding people with integrity willing to do the work.
Agreed. A great perspective on life behind the curtain in the Christian Industrial Complex. You can find it here: https://www.lewissociety.org/innerring/
And everybody shouted AMEN!! (or should have)
The great need in the American church is not for more English translations of the Bible … but for the multitude of American Christians to read the ones they already have, to believe what they read, and to live as if they do.
Or try this another way. These fundraising orgs are giving grants, according to Cole, not to the actual translators themselves, but to other fundraisers. This is akin to celebrity pastors paying 10’s of thousands for another celebrity pastor to preach one sermon one week in the circuit.
One org raises 1 million and takes 10% for overhead. They grant to another fundraiser 900K who takes a 10% tithe. They grant to another org that takes their tithe. They pass the money back and forth in a money laundering scheme. In the end 50K is left with 950K used for not translating one damned word! The 50K goes to boots on the ground and there ministry is accomplished! Cole has been following things like this for a long time. A very popular scam in the Christian Industrial Complex.
worker-bees supporting worker-bees via a middleman
Or teaching them to read in one of the more common languages of their region.
Do tribes in the Amazon, many of whom have some familiarity with Spanish or Brazilian Portuguese, need a complete Bible in their native language, or would it be more efficient – both for religious and economic development purposes – to focus on fluency and literacy in Spanish or Portuguese?
I am going to be intentionally vague here to protect the identity of some dear friends. They devoted many years of their life developing the NT in one of our Native American tribes that did not have one. But once they did so, they realized most of the folks they wanted to reach with this “heart language” Bible were not fluent in that language anymore. So they had to backtrack for more years and teach their target group their “native” language instead of English. Then, oops, could not print it as they did not have exactly a written language. So more years given to inventing and refining that. Then more years trying to teach the target group how to read it.
Meanwhile said target group was attending school, shopping, seeing the doc, holding tribal councils, etc in English. Some use of the native language, yes, especially in the older generations. But by the time this translation was fully good to go they had essentially done the translation then taught the target users to speak the language and then to read it.
Made no sense to me, or to many of my friends who belonged to that target group, and certainly made no sense when it came to cents.
Mission creep. Same as the public schools, who in my area now feed/clothe/provide medical care/do the laundry of/provide mental health care for their students. All worthy projects but what is being neglected is actually educating the kids. In the same way this language project literally supported some missionaries and translators but filled a non existent need, and took time away from any attempt to win these folks to believe in Jesus.
Another group spent lifetimes translating hymnals. Only problem was, they were literally tone deaf. By that I mean the languages targeted were tonal languages. So you translate the words, good, but then when you add the anglo music the mere rising or falling notes actually changed the words into gibberish. Could have just maybe had your services without the hymns until some folks in the target group were reached and let them write their own!
Something I’ve wondered about. They could still keep tribal language and customs in place, but Spanish/Portuguese/English familiarity would open up a whole new world to them.
The translation groups say, at least, that the Bible is much more meaningful, understandable to people when presented in their native (‘heart’) language, with many stories told to back this up. We knew a couple who worked on translation into Hawaiian Pidgin, and most of not all of those speakers would speak English, but not necessarily in their conversations with each other.
And much of the time the entire Bible is not translated, start with certain gospels, other parts of NT, and the rest might depend on the culture, needs, and availability of translators.
Very true.
The Beach Cities were considered quaint backwaters from Los Angeles way back then.
Orange County had some of the richest farmland on the planet before it all got paved and parking-lotted.
Good Point!
Those tribal languages and their dialects will be dead and gone in two or maybe three generations.
Muff Potter,
That’s actually a strong reason to translate the Bible: help to keep a language alive, and to create a Rosetta Stone.
Our church building hosts a congregation that has been in exile for decades. Worship services in their language help to maintain their diaspora community, and keep their culture alive.
It’s the value of Pentecost, reaching everyone wherever they are and helping them have a familiar place in the world.
Thank you for this comment….especially in the the last paragraph….Wycliffe’s SE Asia’s “hardworking careful people…”
And thank you also for your 30+years…
This is sad when you think that before there WAS a ‘bible’, it was the prayers of the people (the liturgy) that conveyed ‘The Story’ (oral history of the Church) because the first Christians had anticipated that Our Lord would return in their life times. When the Lord tarried, then the Scriptures were ‘written down’ (New Testament) and the Church sorted out from all that was written, those ‘books’ in the later Councils that were decided to be counted as the formal ‘canon’ of sacred Scripture. Strangely, it was the early PRAYERS (liturgy) of the Church (in the five majors areas that spread out from Jerusalem)that helped the Church to decide from all that had been written down, what was ‘authentic’ witness, as the liturgy pre-dated what was written. There were other considerations, of course, but the early prayers of the Church helped to authenticate what was ‘witness’ that had been orally shared among all of the churches coming out from Jerusalem to Rome, Alexandria, etc. etc. etc.
The Church chose from the oral liturgies of the five ‘centers’ of Christianity that were the SAME, knowing that these ways of praying (the spoken Word) had all come originally from the same place: Jerusalem itself and kept the ‘connection’ intact.
So the ‘prayers’ in the old way helped the Church to put the ‘canon’ together from all the hundreds of extant writings that were to choose from. Maybe the written Word can now help people find their way to pray together again as ‘Church’ and to stand up for the oral reading of the Holy Gospels? I hope so.
All is not ‘lost’, no. Just ‘preserved’ in another form for a future time. 🙂
Yes. I’m still waiting for someone to translate John 2:4 as “Ma’am” or “Madam,” instead of “woman.” (When Jesus addresses Mary prior to turning water into wine at the wedding of Cana.)
Goes to show limitations of word-for-word translations (no offense, ESV). Given the context of Jesus’s overall interactions with women and the context in particular of his relationship with Mary, AND that he follows through on her request, it is unlikely that disrespect was intended here. But by choosing to translate the Greek literally into “woman,” disrespect is imputed.
On a side note, it’s sad when a gender descriptor becomes a pejorative.
Given the history of colonialism, too many of these “dead” languages and the associated cultures had their demise hastened by ostensibly Christian education. This usually involved forced “civilization” where the language/culture was banned and widespread abuse occurred.
This eradication coincided with exploitation of resources (still occurring in many parts of the world)
In a post colonial world religion has a lot explaining to do. Many descendants of those lost cultures are trying to reclaim them
The interest in a colonial language Bible may not be there.
Friend,
Exactly. The people whose children’s skeletons got found, the Irish, the Welsh, they all complain, it got stolen from them.
Soon I’m going to learn a north American language.
This is a very old (and new) problem that goes far beyond colonialism. It happens in wars, invasions, revolutions, and to a much lesser extent in church take-overs. Humans will always have groups of people who think their ways are superior to other groups and should therefore replace the ways of those filthy people in other groups.
Does your list include proper English? 🙂
That don’t make no nevermind.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I agree. But in the 21st century, we’re reckoning with a post colonial legacy.
If Christians want to engage in “missions” then maybe going to where people are will be more effective than having them come to you.
Given the history, there’s absolutely no incentive to do so.
People don’t magically come to Jesus on their own. Otherwise the world would have been Christianized a long time ago.
Here in North America, the opposite is happening.
It’s not limited to just colonization by Europeans. The entire history of humanity everywhere in the world includes stronger groups overpowering weaker groups, with all groups having to sort through the consequences of conquering or being conquered. It’s one of the reasons languages and culture do not remain static for very long. It can seem like we are the only culture that has had to deal with this, but we are not. And some cultural pactices should be eliminated, such as human sacrifice. But who am I to suggest that human sacrifice is bad, in light of how popular it has been in some regions and epochs? So maybe this is just my privilege showing itself.
I agree but what we are dealing with now isn’t a direct result of the Babylonians conquering the Assyrians – and any faith that wanted to perform human sacrifice would be violating all sorts of laws and statutes.
Ironically the post colonial world we find ourselves in is a result of society’s demographic changing and actually implementing the constitutions (or charter of rights and freedoms) edicts to those who for a long time were in the minority. This is an application of “love thy neighbour” – which is an edict of christianity.
So in a very real way, the post colonial, post christian world came about by the application of christian ethics. People in general want to do the right thing – and I think a majority of christians aren’t against having these conversations.
It’s a complicated subject – and I don’t think you’ve ever considered human sacrifice good.
Michael in UK,
Understood Max
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“And some cultural pactices should be eliminated, such as human sacrifice. But who am I to suggest that human sacrifice is bad, in light of how popular it has been in some regions and epochs? So maybe this is just my privilege showing itself.”
++++++++++++++++++++
(this is a thought-provoking conversation. i’m probably just stating the obvious, but here goes anyway)
…maybe this fits the conversation at the moment:
“the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”
seems to me unjust cultural practices are destined for the trash heap of poorly-constructed technology.
is it privilege to simply observe the truth of this? (i think both our questions are rhetorical)
Jack,
“So in a very real way, the post colonial, post christian world came about by the application of christian ethics.”
++++++++++++++++++
ha…it’s interesting — perhaps the ‘dones’ have simply taken christian ethics seriously, and being ‘done’ is the logical next step.
and is ironically a more pure form of christianity.
It’s not the ethics that people have a problem with. The institution of Christianity in all its forms has led to people being “done”.
Christianity and colonialism were close pals. Both benefited from the spoils.
Tomorrow we reflect on this legacy during Orange Shirt day in honour of those who suffered in Canada’s “Indian” residential school system.
A system mainly run by churches.
Jack,
“The institution of Christianity in all its forms has led to people being “done”….
Tomorrow we reflect on this legacy during Orange Shirt day in honour of those who suffered in Canada’s “Indian” residential school system.”
+++++++++++++
indeed – the institution in all its forms.
i have many orange shirts (love orange). i’ll wear one tomorrow (if that’s the idea).
elastigirl,
That’s the idea, and that would be a thoughtful gesture.
Good people will save this world.