Hope Community Church, Raleigh: Another SBC Megachurch; Another *Adulterous* Relationship. So Tiresome and Common.

5 Moons and Saturn-NASA

“Dad could talk about peace and love out loud to the world, but he could never show it to the people who supposedly meant the most to him: his wife and son. How can you talk about peace and love and have a family in bits and pieces – no communication, adultery, divorce? You can’t do it, not if you’re being true and honest with yourself.” Julian Lennon


I will be leaving next week for a vacation. I am writing some posts and Todd will be writing some as well. The pugs will be cared for by some live-in family and friends. Hopefully, things will settle down after I get home.


I contacted both Hope Community Church and another involved individual but they have not replied.

Hope Community Church-Raleigh

Hope Community Church is a multisite church located in Raleigh, NC. It is one of those covert SBC churches so I am posting the following screenshot from the SBC church directory today to prevent a stream of *We’re not an SBC church” comments.


Full disclosure: My husband and I attended this church for a number of months during our search for a church after the mess at my former SBC church. At the time, I didn’t realize I was an SBC church. I have some good friends who still attend this church. This church is a typical evangelical church that grew rather rapidly and appears to have outpaced JD Greear’s The Summit, another church in which, until his SBC presidency, members had no idea that they were an SBC church. According to Wikipedia (Please note even Wikipedia gets it wrong regarding Hope’s SBC affiliation):

I found the church pleasant and quite accepting. Mike Lee was a charismatic speaker and was loved by the congregation. However, during our time there, I was unsettled. It was such a large church and the pastor walked through the church to appear onstage, surrounded by what appeared to be bodyguards. At that time, the church did not have a membership but that may have changed. The practice of communion was a bit strange. On the designated communion weekend, one would be dismissed from the service and then go to another room for communion, following the line into a room in which a person was reading from scripture. One filed past the communion table, grabbed the bread and wine, and filed right on out or one could sit and listen. Most left. I was going through a time when I knew I wanted something more. One Saturday evening, we tried a Lutheran church and found what we were looking for.

However, we had a pleasant time in our months there and can understand why it attracts so many people.

Pastor Mike Lee went on Sabbatical and decided to retire.

There was something more. Pastor Lee was the main face of Hope Community Church. This decision seemed rather sudden. Sadly there was more. His wife posted in Facebook that he was having an affair. There supposedly was much detail. That detail has since been removed. Mike admitted that he was having an affair. Eventually, the leaders of the church told the congregation.

However, I found the following presentation to the members rather concerning. Watch for yourself. Please go to the time mark. 18:47 to listen to Jason Gore, a long-time pastor and now the apparent lead pastor, discuss the situation.

When Storms Hit – Service from Hope Community Church on Vimeo.</p

It is my understanding that the Lees are currently living separate lives but I know that could change.

Is this clergy abuse?

It is being called an adulterous relationship. However, as TWW readers know, some people say that David had a simple adulterous relationship with Bathseba. That is a poor interpretation. David sent guards to pick up Bathsheba and didn’t bother to send flowers. David was the king and therefore had a significant power advantage over Bathsheba, I, along with many others, believe that Bathsheba was raped by David. Do not bring up the bathing thing. I will promptly disabuse you of your notions on the matter. Think it through.

I have heard it claimed that this relationship began while he was on Sabbatical. I have heard otherwise. However, while on Sabbatical he was still the lead pastor of Hope so it doesn’t let him off the hook. It is my understanding that this person had connections at Hope. As many people know, a counselor who has sex with his/her client can be arrested and put in jail. Some states, such as Texas are passing similar laws for clergy. Was this clergy abuse?

The victim is never referred to specifically.

What I mean is that she is never referred to and I don’t mean by name. They pray for Mike and Laura and “others close to the situation.” Why not the victim?

  • It could be a legal problem. If the victim was attending Hope, she could potentially sue the church.
  • It could be that a settlement has already been reached, the NDA neatly signed, and everyone told to keep their mouths shut.
  • Did this church offer care and counseling to the person involved with Mike Lee? I would imagine that she is experiencing much pain.
  • Has anything like this ever happened before? I think it is advisable that the chur5ch hire a third-party firm to conduct an investigation in order to reassure the membership that this was a one-time occurrence.

Mike Lee is going to be totally restored? Really?

Most sex abuse advocates, myself included, do not believe that pastors should be restored to the pulpit. My guess is that Mike Lee will seek some other revenue stream. One thing that people forget is this. Total restoration, over time, should simply mean the pastor is restored to full membership in the church after a prolonged period of introspection, counseling, etc. No one should ever be automatically restored to the church, even if they say they are repentant.

Lee retired. Good. He should stay that way and become a regular member of a church and work out his repentance and faith with fear and trembling.

Mike is “one of the greatest Bible teachers the world has ever known.”

No, he isn’t. It’s not even close. Let’s go through some names. Jesus? Paul? Martin Luther? Up there with them? Not only did they teach well, but they also didn’t have affairs. I know that the pastor is hurting. So is the church membership. However, bad theology is bad theology. Mike’s actions hurt the church, his family, and another person. This is not the time to get into superlatives. It makes it sound like this is a retirement party.

During this time of shake-up for this church, solid, thoughtful, and calm pastors are needed who carefully measure their words are needed for this church to heal. I hope Mike is attending the church which would be an awesome example to the members. I know another person in Chapel Hill who did that and he is well-loved by many.

I am praying for Hope. This is a tough time but Jesus is still with the members.

Comments

Hope Community Church, Raleigh: Another SBC Megachurch; Another *Adulterous* Relationship. So Tiresome and Common. — 112 Comments


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    1


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    I’m reminded of the principle Dee explained…forgiveness is not primarily Mr Gore’s to give…as he so blithely does. It is primarily for the victim (either his wife, or the partner in Lee’s adultery or potentially, both). This is a dysfunctional, abusive system and Mr Gore’s presentation is lesson 1a in the class, “How to Identify Spiritually Abusive People and Systems”.


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    The “Restoration” process in these situations seem to mean:

    (1) I disappeared for a while (usually 6-18 months)
    (2) I repented (even though no one saw or heard me do that)
    (3) I promise to never do that again (yeah, right)
    (4) I get to preach again! (did God say that?)


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    Believer,

    Great comment!


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    Max,

    That outlines it well, Max!


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    The video has no navigational controls.


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    By the way, the pic of Saturn up-top is fantastic!
    I’m wondering if the largest moon in the pic is Titan.


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    Sherman McCoy, Bonfire of the Vanities: “I’ve got money, my home, my wife, my family … but I want to be Master of the Universe!”

    These so-called pastors, like King David, have EVERYTHING!!! Then they use the power of their position to prey on and violate women. They are corrupt in power and perverse in their desires.

    MAJOR difference: King David was neither priest nor prophet. He was NOT a spiritual leader. He was a civil servant, albeit civic leader.

    Pastors are supposed to be spiritual leaders, above reproach. Predation disqualifies.

    Disqualified pastors can do civic work (like David) and attend church as laity (like David). The Nathans (& Natalies?) in the church can do the spiritual heavy lifting, with their demonstrated spiritual muscle.


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    Max: I repented (

    And the fruit of repentance? On behalf of those violated? Evidence? Talk is cheap. Words without action on behalf of the violated, are empty noise.


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    Muff Potter,

    No, Muff, Titan ain’t in the pic…


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    In all fairness I think he said one of the greatest bible teachers…

    Still disagree with the statement though.


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    Muff Potter,

    I tried, too.


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    “As many people know, a counselor who has sex with his/her client can be arrested and put in jail. Some states, such as Texas are passing similar laws for clergy. Was this clergy abuse?”

    another question might be:
    Why still call him a ‘clergyman’ ?


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    Muff Potter: The video has no navigational controls.

    Below the video is a link: When Storms Hit – Service. Clicking on that link takes you to Vimeo where there are some controls.

    Here’s the Vimeo link to the When Storms Hit – Service:

    https://vimeo.com/561671152


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    Max: The “Restoration” process in these situations seem to mean:

    (1) I disappeared for a while (usually 6-18 months)
    (2) I repented (even though no one saw or heard me do that)
    (3) I promise to never do that again (yeah, right)
    (4) I get to preach again! (did God say that?)

    And they put on airs that God restored them because they are super-duper special. After all, they had a thoughtful 6 months to reflect and now they are convinced that they are are even more great and spiritual than they imagined – that is what God supposedly revealed to them and not any real conviction about sin.


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    Jacob,

    You got it! Welcome to the Christian Industrial Complex in America … where anything goes!


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    Jacob: months to reflect and now they are convinced that they are are even more great and spiritual than they imagined

    “Most men will proclaim everyone his own goodness, but who can find a faithful man? A righteous man will walk in integrity and live life in accord with his godly beliefs.” (Proverbs 20:6-7)


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    Muff Potter,

    Click on the link in the word NASA. It will answer your questions. Most of these pictures that I post have a link to an explanation. I agree. It is an awesome picture.


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    Ava Aaronson,

    Talk is cheap! Excellent assessment.


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    Reader,

    Thank you. I will correct that.


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    Jacob: And they put on airs that God restored them because they are super-duper special. After all, they had a thoughtful 6 months to reflect and now they are convinced that they are are even more great and spiritual than they imagined – that is what God supposedly revealed to them and not any real conviction about sin.

    So true.


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    Jacob: and now they are convinced that they are are even more great and spiritual than they imagined

    Precisely because of their “mistakes” – it magnifies their ability to minister to common pew-peons.


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    dee: I agree. It is an awesome picture.

    A lot of those NASA pics look just like a high quality sci-fi flick, and yet they’re real. Uncanny ain’t it?


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    Ken F (aka Tweed): because of their “mistakes” – it magnifies their ability to minister to common pew-peons

    There are lots of “common pew-peons” who look for ‘pastors’ who are no better than they are … it makes them feel better about themselves. The deeper the man in the pulpit falls into sin, the longer and louder the standing ovation is when he stands on stage crying without tears about his transgressions. Of course, you will not find any New Testament examples of such nonsense. This is called doing church without God.


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    Jacob: they put on airs that God restored them because they are super-duper special

    One of the greatest Bible teachers.

    Jesus had a lot to say about great Bible teachers He never knew (Matthew 7).


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    Ava Aaronson: the fruit of repentance?

    Give me an example of a “restored” pastor who has been the subject of TWW posts who demonstrated the fruit of repentance.

    “Bring forth fruit that is consistent with repentance, let your lives prove your change of heart” (Matthew 3:8)

    Have any refused to stay out of the pulpit, confessing that they disqualified themselves from ministry? Have any made restitution to their victims? Have any been satisfied to just be a lowly pew-sitter?


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    The man onstage says that Mike Lee was “probably one of the greatest Bible preachers that the world has ever known” (around 22:20). When pastors so grossly overstate the value of one preacher’s contribution, they correspondingly diminish the awfulness of that person’s sins, crimes, and other shortcomings. They push the audience to assume that the good outweighs the bad. They push them to overlook things and ignore questions in the back of the mind.

    The man onstage also repeatedly addresses the audience as if it were one person named Hope. “Hope, listen…” he says, as if he just needed to persuade or silence one woman or girl. This is not a good technique for addressing a group intimately… it’s more like a rock star taking the stage and yelling, “Hello, Cleveland!” It’s also a subtle way of demanding uniform thought and action. (A better way to address a congregation might be, “People of Hope Church, please listen…” “I ask you, beloved people of Hope Church, to listen…”)

    The man onstage also claims that Mike Lee’s personal actions don’t undercut the God-given truths in his many years of sermons. Well, how would he know? A lot of churches encourage black-and-white thinking, as well as pastor-worship. Christians are urged to condemn sin as evidence of moral rot. When pastors condition folks to have a knee-jerk reaction, and then ask them to accept a message from a flawed messenger, they just might struggle.


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    Max: Have any made restitution to their victims?

    That would be the evidence of repentance, as played out in the Bible.


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    Friend: The man onstage says that Mike Lee was “probably one of the greatest Bible preachers that the world has ever known” … also claims that Mike Lee’s personal actions don’t undercut the God-given truths in his many years of sermons

    “In ‘that day’ many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we preach in your name, didn’t we cast out devils in your name, and do many great things in your name?’ Then I shall tell them plainly, ‘I have never known you. Go away from me, you have worked on the side of evil!’” (Matthew 7:22-23 Phillips)


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    Max: ‘I have never known you. Go away from me, you have worked on the side of evil!’” (Matthew 7:22-23 Phillips)

    Is the pastor an emblem of power? What kind of power? Is the audience seeking an emblem of power?

    The mob that chose Barabbas over Jesus selected the emblem they were seeking. The disciples seemed disappointed that Jesus did not exhibit the power they were looking for as he went to his execution without a fight. The religious elite, however, knew Jesus had power, & therefore ordered his death.

    A pastor stands up front on Sunday, representing what the people want. Why they show up, which is voluntary. With religious freedom, people select their faith, their social group, and their leaders.


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    The main deficiency of the evangelo-calvinist model is its reliance on the pulpit – everything culminates in a sermon usually labeled asvthe preaching (or hearing) of the word. Stop and let that sink in. The preacher is equating himself, the usual gender in this model, or his sermon with either the gospel, or the Word himself. It won’t take long for anyone who’s congregation simply accepts that false equivalence to take that to the next level…and the next. In a liturgical framework, the personality of the homilist is a minor consideration – and is not, after hearing a psalm and three scriptures in their appointed order, the actual word, considered anything other than a sermon by a human… and it’s only midway through an order of service, one of the gears in the machinery of worship lubricated by music and fueled by prayer. (This is not to imply that the homilist or youth minister might not be defective; but the smooth operation of a congregational service depends not a whit on any single individual.)


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    d4v1d: It won’t take long for anyone who’s [whose] congregation simply accepts that false equivalence to take that to the next level…and the next.

    Co-dependency.
    Forever “parenting” of adults.
    Church hierarchy, exactly what Jesus preached against.

    Not church but a manmade dynasty in the name of a snake oil god.
    Big red flags:
    All 18 Holy Spirit given gifts (as in Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4)
    – are NOT recognized
    – are NOT FREE (given, that’s a gift, to church by Holy Spirit, FREE)
    – are NOT in equal standing, i.e.: preacher & discerner mutually submissive
    Hierarchy
    Covenant
    NDAs
    Gender church roles


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    Max: Have any refused to stay out of the pulpit, confessing that they disqualified themselves from ministry? Have any made restitution to their victims? Have any been satisfied to just be a lowly pew-sitter?

    Maybe Josh Harris? I don’t really agree with him that continuing to seek celebrity status may be a good idea for his sake and for those he hurt, but he is the only pastor from an abusive church that I know of who is refusing to go back into ministry.

    But that’s a really short list of all the abusive pastors on TWW…


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    “However, I found the following presentation to the members rather concerning. Watch for yourself. Please go to the time mark. 18:47 to listen to Jason Gore, a long-time pastor and now the apparent lead pastor, discuss the situation.”
    +++++++++++++++

    well, it was another example of church as scripted & coifed informercial, for one. (i’m feeling sick)

    it was dripping with affirmation, love, compassion, support all lavished on Mike Lee. it was a hero’s send-off.

    where’s the sense of outrage at the steroidal hypocrisy and betrayal? even a toned-down one, having been processed over time?

    it’s weird…it’s like this alternative reality where being a christian means right and wrong no longer apply to you.

    it’s all cushy, shmushy, “there, there, look at that boyish face…look at that sweet smile….You are not evil. You are good! This is a nice boy. This is a good boy. This is a mother’s angel. And I want the world to know once and for all and without any shame that we love him!

    and, of course, zero concern for the other party.


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    Friend: “Hope, listen…” he says, as if he just needed to persuade or silence one woman or girl.

    Maybe he’s had a lot of practice at that.


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    And here I sit in North Raleigh North an SBCer with a lot of connections to SEBTS, and I’ve never heard of this church.(!?) So sorry for the victim & the congregation. I know how it feels & it’s really crappy (& completely avoidable)


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    ishy,

    He is selling stuff and that sums up the bottom line of his ministry—making money.


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    Sandy: He is selling stuff and that sums up the bottom line of his ministry—making money.

    Well, it’s no ministry. He left Christianity after he left the pastorate. And I’ve heard rumors his father owned the rights to his biggest book (if not others). I don’t begrudge him making a living, but his deconstruction course was in pretty bad taste.

    I’m not saying he’s doing what’s right. He may have no idea how to do that, as cultic as SCG is. But he’s the only pastor we’ve seen on TWW say they made a huge mistake and then leaving the pastorate for good.


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    ishy: Maybe Josh Harris? … the only pastor from an abusive church that I know of who is refusing to go back into ministry

    Last I heard, he had left Christianity altogether.


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    d4v1d: The main deficiency of the evangelo-calvinist model is its reliance on the pulpit – everything culminates in a sermon

    Whereas the early Church “model” looked like this:

    “Whenever you meet let everyone be ready to contribute a psalm, a piece of teaching, a spiritual truth, or a tongue with an interpreter. Everything should be done to make your church strong in the faith.” (1 Corinthians 14:26 Phillips)

    Whose job is the ministry? Every believer has a part!


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    ishy: he’s the only pastor we’ve seen on TWW say they made a huge mistake and then leaving the pastorate for good

    As I think about it, I can’t recall any others (other than Joshua Harris) who openly confessed their failings and made no attempt to launch another ministry. Some are still in the “restoration” phase, so it remains to be seen what they will do … but they didn’t leave in sackcloth and ashes, so I suspect they will make unrepentant comebacks like most have done.


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    Max: As I think about it, I can’t recall any others (other than Joshua Harris) who openly confessed their failings and made no attempt to launch another ministry.Some are still in the “restoration” phase, so it remains to be seen what they will do … but they didn’t leave in sackcloth and ashes, so I suspect they will make unrepentant comebacks like most have done.

    I understand that at least Harris made a confession of sorts. But by keeping himself in the limelight, I say he’s doing the same thing as all the unrepentant pastors. He still has a pulpit.


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    R: I understand that at least Harris made a confession of sorts. But by keeping himself in the limelight, I say he’s doing the same thing as all the unrepentant pastors. He still has a pulpit.

    And he would have no current pulpit if he hadn’t been on the Christian stage … just another face in the crowd, otherwise … so, yes, he is still profiting off the ministry in a way.


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    R: keeping himself in the limelight

    A touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks … and anyone can be in the limelight in America … the church is full of such characters.


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    ” … the pastor walked through the church to appear onstage, surrounded by what appeared to be bodyguards.”

    Do the congregants not think that’s super weird? My pastor putters around between services with his annoying little dog, half in his vestments, lighting the candles, straightening chairs, chatting with people leaving one service and coming into the next. We’ll be waiting to start the Spanish Mass, and the coordinators are all gesturing, “Where did he go? I swear, he was just here!” and gesturing to the lady or man doing the announcements to keep talking about *something* until we find him.

    Doesn’t anyone think there’s something *super weird* about the “pastor,” surrounded by bodyguards or even just “blockers,” walking through the church to get “onstage”? I mean, what in the world is this?


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    Cynthia W.: Doesn’t anyone think there’s something *super weird* about the “pastor,” surrounded by bodyguards or even just “blockers,” walking through the church to get “onstage”? I mean, what in the world is this?

    Celebrity authoritarianism.


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    d4v1d,

    Great comment!
    I’ll take a liturgy-centric church over a pastor-centric one every time.


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    d4v1d,

    As someone who has been in 3 liturgical churches over the past 10+ years, I have experienced one church split and a near failure of another due to abusive leadership by the rectors. The interesting part is that my friends and I had a bigger view of church and our faith. The person leading the liturgy absolutely does matter and can prevent a worshipful service and only certain people can do some key parts of the service.


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    Micah: The person leading the liturgy absolutely does matter and can prevent a worshipful service and only certain people can do some key parts of the service.

    It’s a crucial point, and I’m sorry you have gone through so much.

    I don’t know your experience, so these are general comments. I have gone through two schisms, and see church plants and their evil cousin the stealth takeover as gigantic problems for Christianity. Schisms can bring about the appearance of renewal, but sometimes the new congregation has an angry core group that stormed off. In all of these structures, the pastor’s personality is front and center as founder, rescuer, pilot.

    In my view, established churches are a safer choice than places that are brand new and growing like a weed. Unfortunately there are no guarantees; even a healthy congregation can end up with a toxic leader.


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    Off topic a bit but I just had a friend drop me a message about what he has been through the last three plus weeks. He contracted COVID at the third shift work he was doing. Brought it home to his wife who has COPD. Soon she was in an ICU room and he was sick at home and getting sicker. He could not keep food down and became dehydrated. After a couple of weeks his organs started to shut down. Then he went to the hospital emergency room where he waited 9 hours and was given too little help and sent home because it was full. He went back home but soon was in a bad way again. His mental health began to fail and so he called a suicide prevention hotline. They got him the medical care he needed for his again failing organs. Now he is finally on the mend after three and a half weeks and she is improving but still in ICU.

    The moral of the story was two months ago he said that he bought the line somebody gave him with fake news about the vaccines not working at all. He bought it so neither he nor his wife got the shots. Now he has reversed course and encouraging everyone to get them after learning a lesson the hardest possible way. I thought I would share this as it is a prime example of the CIC at its worst. Giving out “Godly” advice that makes people sick to the point of death. This is so disgusting there is not words foul enough to express…


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    Ava Aaronson: The Nathans (& Natalies?) in the church can do the spiritual heavy lifting, with their demonstrated spiritual muscle.

    Nathan was a prophet. Are you saying we need to replace a bunch of fake pastors with real prophets? Have you thought through what that might look like? I am just curious.


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    christiane: Why still call him a ‘clergyman’ ?

    Felon? (CSA)


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    Friend: Schisms can bring about the appearance of renewal, but sometimes the new congregation has an angry core group that stormed off. In all of these structures, the pastor’s personality is front and center as founder, rescuer, pilot.

    Speaking of pastors leaving the ministry, my first SBC church had a decent, godly pastor. But one of the groups that wanted the church to go in the megachurch direction made up awful lies about the pastor to get him out and put someone they wanted in. The New Calvinist group didn’t start the lies, but used the chance and tried to put someone they wanted in. In the end, both of those groups stormed off, but the pastor resigned and left the ministry.

    Sometimes the members are the abusive ones…


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    Mr. Jesperson,

    I personally know people working on the vaccine from the “big name” companies. They are VERY good scientists/engineers, and are committed to the science, not “conspiracies”. When people spew the “conspiracy BS” about the vaccine, especially “devout Christians”, they are attacking people I personally know….. this disgusts me..


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    Cynthia W.,

    More than “super weird”… It is disgusting…it is an anthesis of how Christ speaks of how we are to behave, IMHO…


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    Jeffrey Chalmers: an anthesis of how Christ speaks of how we are to behave

    True.


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    ishy: Speaking of pastors leaving the ministry, my first SBC church had a decent, godly pastor. But one of the groups that wanted the church to go in the megachurch direction made up awful lies about the pastor to get him out and put someone they wanted in … Sometimes the members are the abusive ones…

    There is a lot wrong about the SBC beyond New Calvinism. While I’m a proponent of congregational church governance (it’s Biblical), powerful unspiritual I-want-my-way-members often rule with a heavy hand. It’s a common problem in small SBC churches, where prominent families decide on who preaches and who doesn’t … without God getting involved at all. Yeah, the more I think about it … the SBC is done, it just hasn’t quit yet.


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    Cynthia W.: Doesn’t anyone think there’s something *super weird* about the “pastor,” surrounded by bodyguards or even just “blockers,” walking through the church to get “onstage”? I mean, what in the world is this?

    Personality cult. “Pastor” has to be protected against his own fans, who just want to touch the hem of his skinny jeans.


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    Mr. Jesperson,

    Sorry to hear about your friends. Hope they fully recover from their ordeal. Yes, the CIC has been sick with COVID advice.


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    Max: fans, who just want to touch the hem of his skinny jeans.

    Old joke with new meaning:

    Three kids were arguing about which one had the richest dad.

    “My dad’s a lawyer. When he does one case, he gets a thousand dollars!”

    “Well, my dad’s a doctor. When he does one operation, he gets TWO thousand dollars!”

    “Oh yeah? Well, MY dad’s a preacher! When he does one sermon, it takes eight men to carry out the money!”


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    Friend: Old joke with new meaning

    I’ll laugh when I stop crying.

    Sad to see what’s become of many corners of the American church. It’s reaching Ezekiel 8 proportion.


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    ishy: Sometimes the members are the abusive ones…

    Oh yes indeed. At my childhood church, a small, vocal group made the excellent pastor miserable enough to resign. It was very hard to attract someone with his qualities. They ended up with a rather shallow semi-retired guy who preached a series about God’s beautiful golf courses. His Christmas sermon told about a little boy lost in a department store, wandering around asking strangers, “Have you seen my Father?” “Why no, Son, I don’t know your Father.” Cue the strained metaphors!

    That church later recovered, and I’m glad it’s still an active congregation. But I moved on, scarred by conflict and insulted by super-dumb sermons.


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    Friend: scarred by conflict

    The tagline of a growing SBC “Done” population.


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    Max: Give me an example of a “restored” pastor who has been the subject of TWW posts who demonstrated the fruit of repentance.

    “Bring forth fruit that is consistent with repentance, let your lives prove your change of heart” (Matthew 3:8)

    Have any refused to stay out of the pulpit, confessing that they disqualified themselves from ministry? Have any made restitution to their victims? Have any been satisfied to just be a lowly pew-sitter?

    Thanks so much for this comment. I just used it to respond to Sutton Turner on Warren’s blog. If I have ever seen a Machiavellian, he is certainly a text book example. He has been trying to do image repair as it has been hurting his bu$ne$$. I am sure that all of this press about Driscoll and what he is now doing has been hurting his chances at rolling in more dough by bringing up the past, so more image repair required.

    So it is not just the pastors that are the problem but those who are greedy and just want to get a lot of unrighteous gain by riding the coattails until the wheels come off and the money train dries up. Then they fain repentance without proof and pretend that they have changed. And so they “reconcile” with others who were riding the same coattails before and probably not anyone who actually repented by getting out of the industry all together. There is nothing to gain by apologizing to an ex-minister with no groupies anymore. But there are business opportunities to exploit with those still in the biz who you once kicked cruelly to the curb. Time to play the humble role and repair those as they might profit you eventually. Follow the money for “the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.”


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    Max: “Pastor” has to be protected against his own fans, who just want to touch the hem of his skinny jeans.

    Well played.

    However, do you think that’s something that would happen if the man just walked up the aisle during the open hymn (or whatever the custom is at a stealth SBC megachurch)? Do he think he needs protection from hysterical congregations, or imagine he’s a target of assassination attempts?

    I’m trying to figure out some way in which this could be reasonable. I’ve met bishops and archbishops and the Papal Legate of Central America and Vice President George H.W. Bush and Thomas Sowell, and they all stood around acting like regular people except when “on the job, as it were (saying Mass or giving a speech).

    Vice President Bush had Secret Service officers nearby, of course, but they didn’t stop people from coming up and shaking his hand and saying, “Nice to meet you, Mr. Vice President!”


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    Mr. Jesperson: so agree regarding bad covid advice. While we have many pastors in our area fighting masks, distancing, and vaccines tooth and nail, there is one bright side.

    A younger guy in a non Calvy denom has gone full on five point Calvinist. He has taken on those other guys saying that surely since Jesus said as ye do unto the least of these ye do unto Me, and since our “personal choices/rights/freedoms” are spreading this disease to the innocent, they will stand before God and explain just how they figured they were not their brother’s keeper. He really gives them the business, even using predestination to point out “how do you know God did not give us the gift of the vaccine and predestine us to use it? Perhaps you are fighting God in insisting on your rights and freedoms.”

    Glad he is doing it.


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    just finished listening to the announcement and the sermon and have a few random thoughts.

    1. quickly gloss over the gravity of the event by applying “everybody sins”. No this is Mike’s sin.

    2. limit the relational damage by announcing that this whole mess belongs to elders, mike and his family, plus some unknown people as if this has little to no impact to the congregation. The situation is already “taken care” by elders, congregation not need to be concerned.

    For the sake of truth, should not Mike face the congregation to publicly repent/speak truth of his sin, lies and betrayal instead of through a 3rd party’s mouth to minimize his damaged to GOD’s TEMPLE? I bet the church teaches you to confess your sins openly and when the time comes for the higher-ups to do the right thing, a different standard applies.

    2. dehumanizing the audience by telling them “not to feel discourage” by the gravity of the event with a veil threat in the sermon that “discouragement leads to destruction”. This denies normal human reaction and feeling to such events. Told to give grace to Mike but no grace extended to congregation for feeling angry, confused, discouraged, betrayed, and with questions in mind, etc?

    3. cherry pick bible verses to fit what he want to say about “resilience”.

    Why not apply 2 Tim 3:1-5 to Mike situation and say the congregation should have nothing to do with such a person?

    He uses the verses to encourage you to self-police your thoughts and feelings – self-gaslighting – watch out if you failed to be resilient.

    The founding pastor lied and possibly committed abuse to someone (could be a church member, not clear) and you are told to go against your mind and gut feeling and trust the church? Really!?

    Overall, I read the announcement and sermon is putting the spotlight on you instead of shining the light on the real issue of the founding pastor.


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    Max: (4) I get to preach again! (did God say that?)

    With some of them, YES.
    Remember JMac of HBC Chicago? The encounter with the mystery guy at the gas station in Wyoming who prophesied over him to Return to Ministry before mysteriously disappearing, matching the Christianese Angel Encounter script?


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    Max: it remains to be seen what they will do … but they didn’t leave in sackcloth and ashes, so I suspect they will make unrepentant comebacks like most have done.

    With or without the Direct Vision and Anointing from God to do so.
    (After all, if God Appears Directly To Me and Commands me to Return to My Ministry, who am I to rebel?)


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    Cynthia W.: Vice President Bush had Secret Service officers nearby, of course, but they didn’t stop people from coming up and shaking his hand and saying, “Nice to meet you, Mr. Vice President!”

    I’m sure a lot of celebutante pastors would just LOVE to have the Secret Service at their beck and call.


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    Swore-Sweet Dayes,

    “…and you are told to go against your mind and gut feeling and trust the church?”
    +++++++++++++++

    this is how church, inc. redefines faith.

    every church i’ve gone to in the last, oh, say, 26 years has done this very thing. i don’t even think they realize it.

    seems like spiritual abuse to me.

    it’s quite a thing when the how-to of the church institution (the church industry) has Jesus Christ as its mascot and tag line, along with “love”, and “hope”, and yet operates on abuse / abusiveness (is there a difference?)

    …and its leaders/constituents don’t even know.


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    Swore-Sweet Dayes,

    Good points. Thx.

    Massaging the congregation & finessing the Clergy Sex Abuse guy (no longer qualifies as “pastor”).


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    Swore-Sweet Dayes: and you are told to go against your mind and gut feeling and trust the church? Really!?

    Yes really.
    You (generic you) are taught that you cannot trust your gut ‘feelings’ because you are so hopelessly corrupt and mired in ‘sin’.*
    Any protest to the contrary, and you make yourself a candidate for ‘the squisher’, a kind of hydraulic ram compactor which runs off of Bible verses.
    It’s designed to crush the human will and spirit.

    * I used to swallow this stuff with gusto until I realized it’s a steaming pile of horse poo-poo.


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    Friend: It’s a crucial point, and I’m sorry you have gone through so much.

    I don’t know your experience, so these are general comments. I have gone through two schisms, and see church plants and their evil cousin the stealth takeover as gigantic problems for Christianity. Schisms can bring about the appearance of renewal, but sometimes the new congregation has an angry core group that stormed off. In all of these structures, the pastor’s personality is front and center as founder, rescuer, pilot.

    In my view, established churches are a safer choice than places that are brand new and growing like a weed. Unfortunately there are no guarantees; even a healthy congregation can end up with a toxic leader.

    I’m sorry that you’ve gone through church schisms, too. It is so painful sometimes.

    I agree, there are no guarantees. One of the churches was an established congregation that hadn’t dealt with their loss of a building and status in the community. Their long-time pastor retired, and they chose a toxic pastor who could “help them” with getting another building.(he could rescue them) I had warned them that the new pastor was likely toxic; they hired him anyway. I was pushed out of the church by the new pastor. Eventually, the toxicity came to light in the church and the pastor was removed. But… the congregation was really hurt in the process, but it was committed to each other.

    The grandiosity of these pastors is attractive to certain congregations.


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    Micah: The grandiosity of these pastors is attractive to certain congregations.

    Beware of the Angel of Light who makes his way to American pulpits. Satan was an “attractive” cherub angel, but God said to him “Your heart was filled with pride because of all your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. Therefore, I have cast you down to earth.” (Ezekiel 28:17)

    Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy. We have seen his work through American pastors who kill the trust of many, steal churches, destroy faith. Pure evil … as Friend commented “I have gone through two schisms, and see church plants and their EVIL cousin the stealth takeover as gigantic problems for Christianity.”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: Remember JMac of HBC Chicago? The encounter with the mystery guy at the gas station in Wyoming who prophesied over him to Return to Ministry before mysteriously disappearing

    Did he tell him to wear a black leather jacket and shoot pictures of his elder team with a pellet gun?


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    Swore-Sweet Dayes: you are told to go against your mind and gut feeling and trust the church? Really!?

    A great multitude of churchgoers in the Christian Industrial Complex have fallen for that. Bad actors would have no stage if it weren’t for a gullible audience willing to buy tickets to the show.


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    Cynthia W.: I’m trying to figure out some way in which this could be reasonable.

    There is nothing reasonable about mega-mania. From pastors with bodyguards to pew-sitters who give standing ovations when the man in the pulpit commits gross sin … it’s the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen in my long life of doing church in America.


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    linda: “how do you know God did not give us the gift of the vaccine and predestine us to use it? Perhaps you are fighting God in insisting on your rights and freedoms.”

    On the Reasons to Believe website, you can find a link on the right side of this blog, you will find an Astronomer, a biologist and some others talking about science. The Biologist posted up a post some time ago noting that the pandemic started right after the mRNA tech was ready to be used. He too noted that this was not a coincidence. After my friends horror story of hospitals unable to treat everyone in Mississippi I do think this is a tool He has allowed us to have. It also tests the quality of supposed leaders like M. Driscoll getting his church big my ignoring all precautions while the foolish come in because they cannot be bothered with an epidemic. Just pretend and hope you do not end up like this man and wife…


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    Max,

    Sons of Beelzebub, they are. Just like their father.


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    Micah: Sons of Beelzebub, they are. Just like their father.

    I suppose a lot of this mess in the church is just the influence of the world and the flesh … but I believe the devil has had his hand of some of it … there’s nothing holy about certain ministers and ministries that have been the subject of TWW posts.


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    Another SBC Megachurch; Another *Adulterous* Relationship. So Tiresome and Common.

    Somebody really needs to institute a “Take-a-Number” System.
    These days it’s news when a Pastor ISN’T dipping his wick left and right.


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    Max: A great multitude of churchgoers in the Christian Industrial Complex have fallen for that. Bad actors would have no stage if it weren’t for a gullible audience willing to buy tickets to the show.

    “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
    — P.T.Barnum


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    When,

    Another pastor calls his predecessor, “the greatest… right after explaining about lies, adultery, deception I wonder what the congregation is thinking, like ‘says who??’


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    Friend,

    Well hot-damn!
    I gotta get me some skinny jeans and shave my head too!


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    Vance Snyder: Another pastor calls his predecessor, “the greatest… right after explaining about lies, adultery, deception I wonder what the congregation is thinking, like ‘says who??’

    In my experience, they are sitting there nodding and it doesn’t even occur to them to really think about those statements.

    I have heard some terrible sermons in my time, and I always hear people who walk out of the service saying, “Wasn’t that a great sermon?”


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    I dont take much stock in “repentance” unless from the perp himself telling others what he had done….turning himself in. Evidently his wife outed him.. .


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
    — P.T.Barnum

    They are predestined – they cannot choose otherwise.


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    Mr. Jesperson: the pandemic started right after the mRNA tech was ready to be used. He too noted that this was not a coincidence. After my friends horror story of hospitals unable to treat everyone in Mississippi I do think this is a tool He has allowed us to have.

    I know that you are suffering and making a nuanced argument in favor of science and faith. What follows is a general comment.

    A God who is observant enough to notice the mRNA technology might have prevented the pandemic instead of merely allowing us to have a tool to fight it.

    It’s great for Christians and others to endorse the mRNA vaccine, but maybe God should have sent a spirit of cooperation too. People are still waving signs about relying on Jesus alone to protect them from covid. Some anti-mask folks are Christians who scream that we need to keep our faces uncovered because we are made in the image of God.

    I do see God at work here, but mainly in the quiet, lonely hearts of exhausted people who do the right thing every day, while angry mobs are massing in the hospital parking lot and storming the school board meeting.

    We need tools to restore sanity and stability to our nation. I don’t know where it will come from. The best I can do is to keep talking with people I know who believe the vaccine contains a government tracking chip or the Mark of the Beast.

    They learned this at church, and among Christians online. It’s impossible to convince them to get vaccinated, so I just try to help keep them moored to reality in other ways: “How are you? How are the grandchildren? Have they gone back to school yet?”


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    Friend: “probably one of the greatest Bible preachers that the world has ever known” … diminish the awfulness of that person’s sins … ignore questions in the back of the mind … demanding uniform thought and action … personal actions don’t undercut the God-given truths in his many years of sermons … ask them to accept a message from a flawed messenger …

    Mind control, pure and simple. The spiritual immaturity in most churches lends itself to this. American pew-sitters have become so open-minded about gross sin in the pulpit that their brains have fallen out. In the meantime, the Kingdom of God pushes forward without them.


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    I wish there was a transcript so I could quote the man onstage accurately. Overall I’d classify his little family talk with “Hope” as “satanic to the core”. I’ve also a couple timeline questions he didn’t quite clear up for me.
    1st. He says Mr Lee officially retired 2-2. At that time he recorded a couple videos about burnout and exhaustion “we later shared with you”. How much later? How long were the pewsitters just wondering why Mr Lee had vanished? I couldn’t find the videos or anything whatsoever about his retirement aside from one undated post excitedly announcing Mr Gore as new lead pastor. In it, the old lead pastor never existed. However, the search engine still has the old title of “Retirement Announcement”.
    2nd. When was the sabbatical during which Mr Lee had personal struggles involving an adulterous relationship? How long were pewsitters deceived between sabbatical and retirement?
    I can discover nothing. As of now it never happened.
    3rd. Why did the man onstage and his buddies delay 3 months to tell pewsitters after Mr Lee confessed his struggles? The man onstage admits sheeple may wonder this. Then he wants to say they worked hard to give the Lee family and others needed privacy to heal and be restored, and hopes sheeple will now do the same. He doesn’t really say this is the answer to the wondering, but then adds that the struggles have now been made public anyway. My opinion— they were going to cover up the confession forever, until they couldn’t.


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    2 tidbits from Mr Lee.
    In 3/20 he did a workshop at some conference entitled “Burnout and other ministry ending habits”. When his ministry ended he cited burnout but forgot to mention the other habits.
    Then in October he and other Hope leaders were accused of mistreating and blaming and not reporting sexual assault victims. On 10/21/20 Mr Lee said— I kid you not—
    “We love hurting people.”


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    Dave A A: “We love hurting people.”

    All the more strange, given their custom of addressing the whole congregation as Hope.


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    Dave A A: On 10/21/20 Mr Lee said— I kid you not—
    “We love hurting people.”

    Is there any context for that?


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    CynthiaW.: Is there any context for that?

    I’m not Dave A A, but would imagine the meaning was something like, “People are hurting. We love [to help] hurting people.”

    People make mistakes when they talk, yet this church seems to script its messages very heavily. A mistake like that, in a trouble church, strikes me as rather telling. Whether or not I’ve guessed the context, they don’t know how they sound.


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    CynthiaW.: Is there any context for that?

    Google ‘Hope Community Church – Mike Lee Social Media update’ from Oct 21, 2020. This is where he responds to the women who had come forward with allegations of sexual assault by a band member, as well as a minor victim’s unreported assault which happened at a nearby school campus while she volunteered for the church.

    The video is their first effort at gaslighting the congregation: he says we can’t believe everything we hear online. He says we need to listen to his message to hear ‘the rest of the story’ and says we need to ‘pray for the victims’ healing’. Basically, need to allow him to sit on stage with a microphone and tell us what to believe. (Which he did the following weekend, even crying, over his own pain: not the women’s pain). He effectively shut down the women’s story and credibility, and Hope never addressed it again.

    It is no surprise that Hope leaders tried to keep Mr. Lee’s affair stuffed under a rug. That’s exactly what they did to these women too.

    I appreciate so many of these comments that have pointed out how Mr. Gore gaslighted the audience. I have strongly felt the same way, and you helped explain how he did this.


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    Dave A A: hen he wants to say they worked hard to give the Lee family and others needed privacy to heal and be restored, and hopes sheeple will now do the same

    RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.
    Especially when bestowed by Divine Right.


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    To those who have some stories to tell at Hope Community Church: I will be returning on 9/5. I would be happy to speak with any of you or even meet for coffee with you. Send me an email at dee@thewartburgwatch.com


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    dee,

    Love you, love your outreach. Ever grateful. Some talk about being the hands of Jesus doing His work in the Kingdom. IMHO, Dee, you are the listening ears of Jesus doing His work in the Kingdom. Some wait, seems like forever, for your kind, perceptive, listening ears. God bless.


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    Alive and free,

    …Gaslight…
    +++++++++++++++

    I’ll never cease with all astonishment at how much manipulation is built into the current iteration of Jesus’ namesake religion.

    I’m quit certain Jesus is as disgusted with it all as I am (as we are).

    “Call it something else, please! Leave me out of it!”—Jesus. (Or so I imagine)


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    Friend,

    Thanks, that makes sense.


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    Friend,

    Yes, meaning “we love helping hurting people.” Not that they love to hurt people.


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    Tracy Stivers: Yes, meaning “we love helping hurting people.” Not that they love to hurt people.

    Yes, I’m sure that’s what they meant. Except for the narcissistic bad-boys reported on frequently by TWW who evidently get some sort of high out of using and abusing church members.


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    Texas has one of the most comprehensive clergy sexual abuse laws. It is considered criminal sexual assault for a clergyman to use their power/position to engage in sexual activity with someone under their care.

    (b) A sexual assault under Subsection (a)(1) is without the consent of the other person if:
    (1) the actor compels the other person to submit or participate by the use of physical force, violence, or coercion;

    10) the actor is a clergyman who causes the other person to submit or participate by exploiting the other person’s emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman’s professional character as spiritual adviser;

    https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.22.htm

    If Mike Lee was in TX & he used his position as a clergyman to engage in sexual activity with someone under his spiritual care, he could have been arrested and faced charges for sexual assault.


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    Do not bring up the bathing thing. I will promptly disabuse you of your notions on the matter.

    OK I will. Here goes.

    1. Indoor plumbing did not exist. Bathing was outside.
    2. If you try bathing with clothes on, you won’t get as clean as you need.


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    Max: Except for the narcissistic bad-boys reported on frequently by TWW who evidently get some sort of high out of using and abusing church members.

    “Power consists of inflicting maximum suffering among the Powerless.”
    — George Orwell, in Nineteen Eighty-Four


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    Friend: All the more strange, given their custom of addressing the whole congregation as Hope.

    Hope Joins Grace in the name of a church as the equivalent of “People’s Democratic” in the name of a Third World country.

    “The more adjectives about Democracy in a country’s official name, the nastier a Dictatorship it is.”
    — TV Tropes, “People’s Republic of Tyranny”


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    Elastigirl: “Call it something else, please! Leave me out of it!”—Jesus. (Or so I imagine)

    Which is precisely the point, they left Jesus out of their religion years ago…


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    Carpenter grew up in Anderson County and spent 27 years building Redemption into one of South Carolina’s largest churches. In 2017, Ron Carpenter apologized to the community for Hope Carpenter’s comments on Facebook when she spoke out against those who’ve chosen to kneel during the national anthem. He said the comments made were “racially insensitive.”


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    elastigirl: it’s all cushy, shmushy, “there, there, look at that boyish face…look at that sweet smile….You are not evil. You are good! This is a nice boy. This is a good boy. This is a mother’s angel. And I want the world to know once and for all and without any shame that we love him!”

    My sociopath NPD little brother always appeared to everyone else as The Sweet Little Angel. He could look you straight in the eye and with butter-wouldn’t-melt-in-his-sweet-little-mouth Sincerity LIE with every word. Every single word.


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    Max: “Whenever you meet let everyone be ready to contribute a psalm, a piece of teaching, a spiritual truth, or a tongue with an interpreter. Everything should be done to make your church strong in the faith.” (1 Corinthians 14:26 Phillips)

    Sounds a lot like one of these blogs, doesn’t it?


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    Mr. Jesperson: thought I would share this as it is a prime example of the CIC at its worst. Giving out “Godly” advice that makes people sick to the point of death. This is so disgusting there is not words foul enough to express…

    COVID News that surfaced today along those lines:

    Mississippi’s governor says people in the state are less scared of COVID-19 because they ‘believe in eternal life’:
    https://news.yahoo.com/mississippis-governor-says-people-state-093113372.html
    (Mississippi and its mirror-image Alabama are currently tied as the states with the LOWEST vaxx rates.)

    A pastor from National Religious Broadcasters was fired for promoting the COVID-19 vaccine on TV:
    https://news.yahoo.com/pastor-national-religious-broadcasters-fired-002535405.html

    ‘This Has Gotta Stop’: Eric Clapton Releases Apparent Anti-Vax Anthem:
    https://currently.att.yahoo.com/entertainment/gotta-stop-eric-clapton-drops-225206140.html

    And Rand Paul for Ivermectin:
    https://news.yahoo.com/rand-paul-claims-scientists-wont-045732346.html
    (Last year, my SIL said the exact same thing about HydroxychloroQAnon. She also claimed proof of Demonic Activity which was also suppressed, courtesy of her Spiritual Warfare Guru.)

    And at least three headlines about Anti-Vaxx/Anti-Mask Advocate/radio personality Dies of COVID.