A History Lesson: Men Like Bill Hybels Have Been in the Church for 2,000 Years and Many Still Don’t Get It

Huge Rings Around a Black Hole-NASA

Do you think the Stargate writers got their inspiration from this? I’m a fan of the entire two series.

“Trust happens when leaders are transparent.” Jack Welch


My mother is still in the hospital. She was sicker than we thought. Guests are arriving for Abby’s wedding starting on Tuesday. Please keep my mom in your prayers.


I am so grateful for all of the bloggers out there who continue to follow stories and issues that are meaningful and important to them. Rob Speight contacted me about his website and the following post that he thought I might find interesting.

Bill Hybels: should he be honored for his “once-in-a-generation ministry?

Willow Creek Claims Transparency — You Decide

At the core meeting 2 months ago, Dave Dummitt directed Shawn Williams to share with the Sunday morning congregation the view that we can honor Bill Hybels for his unique once-in-a-generation ministry contributions, while at the same time acknowledging that he has a “shadow side.” The core of Willow Creek enthusiastically applauded the idea. That has yet to happen. Shawn Williams hasn’t. Neither has Dave Dummitt. I suspect it has not happened yet because it is not going to happen … ever.

Do Willow Creek leaders truly understand the extent of Hybel’s serial predation?

…both Dummitt and Williams seemed to demonstrate their ignorance of the scope of Bill Hybels’ sexual predation.  They sounded clearly clueless about the price and pain that Hybels’ behavior inflicted on his victims.  Since there’s been no follow-up on their proposed Sunday morning mention of Hybels, it’s safe to assume that multiple sources have told them that they made a grievous error to even suggest such a disgusting gesture.  They obviously realize that they made a mistake.

Rebranding of Willow Creek: a publicity campaign to make people think better about an organization.

Dave Dummitt could not be more excited about what will be happening at Willow in the Fall.  In fact, he thinks that so many more people will be coming to Willow that he fears they won’t have enough volunteers to serve the guests.  One might wonder, what does he think will cause this new influx of people to Willow?  Is there going to be a revival?  Is there going to be repentance?  A renewal of commitment to the Savior?  A rededication to engaging with Scripture?

No, Dummitt actually said that these yet to be identified new people will be coming to Willow Creek Community Church because the church is rebranding.  Yes, Willow Creek has hired Storyland Studios out of California (storylandstudios.com) to do a major rebranding.  Although Dummitt has told the staff that this is happening, the staff doesn’t know what the rebranding entails, but it’s going to be major.

Essentially, rebranding is a publicity campaign designed to improve how people think about an organization.  Storyland Studios itself  describes the process like this under its website’s Brand and Guest Experience menu tab:

…How do you want people to experience your brand? We love to take the strategic story of a brand and shape it into something people can walk into, interact with, and inhabit. Whether you’re developing a new brand from the ground up or building on an existing one, our team can help you define and create experiences that bring your brand to life in ways that propel your strategy and keep your guests engaged, immersed, and coming back for more. When we work with brands to shape immersive experiences and activations, we leverage our three-dimensional storytelling approach to add layers of meaning and connection for guests and employees alike. From concepting and executing the experience, our team of digital marketing strategists and designers are able to build an executable marketing strategy to promote your brand and experience in the world.

Trust has been broken.

…Trust has been broken by the leadership of Willow Creek for years. If trust is ever to be rebuilt, the maneuverings of the leadership will need to become a lot less obscure. Maybe it’s a good idea for Dummitt and his crew to try actually practicing transparency. Because ironically, the more they merely claim it, the more we see right through them.

Did you know that the church has been dealing with sex abuse in the church for about 2,000 years?

Is sex abuse in the church a more recent development? I have thought about this question since I started blogging. My friend, Eric, sent me a link to the following post which I found fascinating. Ancient Evil of Abuse in the Church: Jean Varnier, Ravi Zacharias and Irenaeus’ Warning

Irenaeus and Against Heresies (100s AD). Against Heresies Kindle Edition

Marcus used the Lord’s Supper to trap women.

Marcus seduced a deacon’s wife.

Women need to beware of pastors who use crude sexual language.

I had some trouble with this writing of Irenaeus. He claimed that these women needed to make a public confession of their sins. There does not seem to be an understanding of clerical abuse and trauma. But he did write this 2,000 years ago. It has taken us 2,000 years to begin to attack this sort of abuse.

Unfortunately, the present-day author, Anthony Costello,  appears to believe that present-day women, who are abused by Christian leaders, may need to repent of their sins in the matter. He does not seem to have an understanding of the power differential between the church leaders and the unsuspecting victim in his congregation.

Catholic priest abuse was documented in the 1600s.

Opinion: The Catholic Church has a long history of child sexual abuse and coverups by Karen Liebreich.

Unofficially, I was trying to find out why the order, founded by a Spanish priest named Joseph Calasanz, had been suppressed in 1646, just over 20 years after its establishment, a rare fate for a religious order.

Historians who had addressed the suppression — nearly all of them Piarist Fathers, as members of the order were known — said that the Pious Schools had been shut down as punishment for the order’s close association with the astronomer Galileo, who had been convicted of heresy by the Inquisition in 1633. But after spending several years in the archives researching the priests’ educational methods, I came to suspect that the order’s suppression owed more to the sexual activities of some of the priests with their pupils than to their scientific iconoclasm.

…Calasanz opened his first school, dedicated to providing a free education to boys from poor families, in Rome in 1597. More schools soon followed. In 1629, the first accusations of child abuse were made by fellow priests; according to contemporary letters and documents, there were “impure friendships with schoolboys” and “many accusations of impurity and ill-reknown.” One Piarist priest, Father Stefano Cherubini, was a particular focus of the accusations.

Calasanz wrote to the administrator of a nearby school, whom he had sent to investigate Cherubini: “I want you to know that Your Reverence’s sole aim is to cover up this great shame in order that it does not come to the notice of our superiors.”

Cherubini was swiftly promoted by Calasanz, first to rector (the equivalent of headmaster) and then to visitor general (an inspector). Soon, more priestly abusers were discovered, promoted and moved to new schools, in a policy known as promoveatur ut amoveatur, or promotion for avoidance. The rules of the Pious Schools were unequivocal about the sin involved, but in each case Calasanz’s first priority was protecting reputations: the order’s and the perpetrator’s.

…n 1643, Cherubini, by now a known sexual abuser of children, replaced Calasanz, appointed on behalf of and with the knowledge of the papacy, as head of this respected religious order, whose sole mission was to teach young boys.

,,,Calasanz was canonized in 1767, and in 1948, Pope Pius XII named him “Universal Patron of all the Christian popular schools in the world.”

Sexual abuse amongst the Puritans in the 1600s.

Sexual Misconduct in Plymouth Colony

Sodomy

Only one clear case of sodomy appears in the court records of Plymouth colony. The case was heard on March 1, 1641/1642 and involved three men, Edward Michell, Edward Preston, and John Keene. The first two men were presented on charges of “lude & sodomiticall practices tending to sodomye” with one another. The third, John Keene, was propositioned by Edward Preston, but “he resisted the temptacion, and vsed meanes to discouer it.”

Rape

Ambrose Fish was indicted “for that hee, haueing not the feare of God before his eyes, did wickedly, and contrary to the order of nature, . . . by force carnally know and rauish Lydia Fish, the daughter of Mr Nathaniell Fish, of Sandwich aforsaid, and against her will, shee being then in the peace of God and of the Kinge

Buggery

Perhaps the best known sexual offence in the history of Plymouth Colony is the 1642 case of young Thomas Graunger who was found guilty of “buggery with a mare, a cowe, two goats, diuers sheepe, two calues, and a turkey” and sentenced to death by hanging

USA: the history of child sex abuse

Placing childhood sexual abuse in historical perspective

That the young were sexually abused was well known to nineteenth-century Americans. In New York City, between 1790 and 1876, between a third and a half of rape victims were under the age of 19; during the 1820s, the figure was 76 percent. The historian Lynn Saccofound more than 500 published newspaper reports of father-daughter incest between 1817 and 1899. An 1894 textbook, A System of Legal Medicine, reported that the “rape of children is the most frequent form of sexual crime.”

We should not be surprised to find pedophiles, rapists, molesters, and all sorts of deviant personalities in the church. I believe that those who practice such behaviors target the church where they find naive and trusting individuals who do not understand that churches are targeted by such individuals. Let’s get smart. It happened 2,000 years ago and it continues to occur in 2021.

Comments

A History Lesson: Men Like Bill Hybels Have Been in the Church for 2,000 Years and Many Still Don’t Get It — 150 Comments

  1. Dyan Elliott Medieval History Professor at Northwestern has a new book out “Corrupter of Boys” documenting abuse by priests since early medieval times. The church used the same tactics to protect the abusers then that they use now. An interesting and sad read.

  2. “At the core meeting 2 months ago, Dave Dummitt directed Shawn Williams to share with the Sunday morning congregation the view that we can honor Bill Hybels for his unique once-in-a-generation ministry contributions, while at the same time acknowledging that he has a “shadow side.”“

    When checking in on John Ortberg’s website (just noticed it’s currently moribund) after his reported issues surfaced, I wondered when he was going to update his “about“ page on his site — on which he sold his publications to international audiences — to disclose what he did and the censures that followed. Popping over to a familiar book selling site, the two most recent books of his published appear to be in Polish and Italian (the latter of which was in 2021, after much of the story had gotten out). Is any of the marketing going to adequately reference the reported “shadow side“?

    Back to Hybels, do you think the spiritual condition of those who reportedly went through the videotape screenings, the Ambien-blamed contact, and so forth are being adequately considered in these plans for “honor“? One thing that came to mind is the potential desire for some to protect the brand, especially because the brand has reportedly had success (particularly on the financial side) and could be re-marketed — with the door wide open for some to ride the coattails and gravy train.

    If Hybel’s name / rep and the Willow Creek way as it were (notwithstanding his own mile-wide, inch-deep comments related to the seeker-sensitive model) can be salvaged with just a bit of a nod to an individual “shadow side” and then it’s back to business, that sadly figures to hold an appeal for some. They can say it quickly and hope all is forgotten: ‘Oopsie moral failing because we’re all human, but good stuff happened, and forgiveness, so we’re good! We’ve already spoken about this, so it’s in the past, and we want to move forward! Speak positively and give generously!’

  3. The Who on rebranding?

    Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
    We don’t get fooled again

    Meet the new boss
    Same as the old boss

  4. We watched the Alex Gibney doc: “Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God”. It covers some history & stats about pedophile priests. (Attorney Jeff Anderson is interviewed. Anderson’s advocacy work has been mentioned here at TWW.)

    Gibney, who is Catholic, says: “bad apples are not what we should be looking for. What we should be looking for is to hold institutions to account. And that means that if the Catholic Church – or any other institution – wants a great reputation, they have to earn it, day after day.”

    Earn a great reputation, day after day. (Gibney doesn’t mention hiring a rebranding or PR firm to camouflage bad deeds.)

  5. “Willow Creek has hired Storyland Studios out of California … to do a major rebranding”

    That’s fitting. Hybels and Willow Creek have been quite the “story” … a real whopper, in fact!

  6. It dismays me no end to see how old the problem of clergy sexual abuse has persisted in the church. Authoritarian structure has been giving abusers a haven for a very long time.

    The post mixes in a few cases that do not involve pastors, though. In the example from Plymouth Colony, Edward Michell and Edward Preston appear to have been lay persons and consenting adults. The third man, John Keene, was “propositioned.” He appears to have turned the other men in to the authorities, but the authorities’ perception of Keene was rather weird: “in some thing he was faulty.” Keene was made to watch while the other two men were whipped. Perhaps not by coincidence, that type of punishment has been used to terrify people into obeying the authorities.

    Plymouth Colony certainly had a right to make its own laws, and no one can deny that they paid attention to the Bible. This case happened twenty years after the Mayflower landed. The colony had not turned into a sin-free paradise. When people were convicted of a crime, the Plymouth authories had them whipped, branded, hanged, banished, and barred from ever owning land.

    So maybe people just needed to obey the law. Surely that would not have been all that hard, if the laws were clear. Plymouth Colony also had sumptuary laws, which allowed the high-born among the religious refugees to dress as they wished. Ordinary folk, though, were banned from wearing what they chose. No striving or splurges for you, Joe and Mary Lunche Boxe:

    The Plymouth General Court declared its ‘utter detestation and dislike’ that men or women of ‘mean condition, educations and callings should take upon them the garb of gentlemen.’ The Court forbade the poorer folk to wear gold and silver lace, buttons or points at their knees. Ordinary men couldn’t walk in great boots, and women of the same rank couldn’t wear silk or tiffany hoods or scarvess. (https://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety.com/puritan-dress-code-and-outrage-slashed-sleeves/)

    And finally, let’s remember the executions of completely innocent women and men for witchcraft, not only in 1692, but earlier and later as well.

  7. “Men Like Bill Hybels Have Been in the Church for 2,000 Years”

    And the Church has had plenty of warning:

    “False prophets will appear … to deceive, if possible, even the elect” (Jesus)

    And how would church folks be so easily deceived?

    “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear” (Paul)

    We wouldn’t have pulpits like Hybels if it weren’t for a pew that wants pulpits like Hybels. Actors would have no stage if it weren’t for an audience willing to buy tickets to the show.

    Hybels essentially invented seeker-friendly church. His legacy – the “Willow Creek Model” – lives in churches all across America.

  8. Max: Hybels essentially invented seeker-friendly church. His legacy – the “Willow Creek Model” – lives in churches all across America.

    When I think of Hybels and many more just like in him in the 20th and 21st century American church, one passage keeps popping to mind:

    “Beware of Alexander the Coppersmith, he has done us much harm”

    One man can do so much harm when an aberrant teaching is allowed to run unchecked, when a double-life in the pulpit is revealed, when self-interest boots Jesus out of the house.

  9. Friend: And finally, let’s remember the executions of completely innocent women and men for witchcraft, not only in 1692, but earlier and later as well.

    And let’s all bless Providence that the founders of our Nation had the good sense to erect a wall of separation between religion and civil authority.
    Without it, we’d still have public floggings, clergy having final say so over who can do what, and well…
    Let’s just be happy that the David Bartons of our society can’t have it their way.

  10. Todd Wilhelm,

    Jeff Thompson,

    Wikipedia:

    In 2012, he wrote in his autobiography, Who I Am, that he had accessed the illegal images to prove that British banks were complicit in channelling the profits from paedophile rings.[144] An article by investigative reporter Duncan Campbell that was published in PC Pro magazine revealed that police had no evidence that the website accessed by Townshend involved children and nothing incriminating was found on his personal computer.[145]

  11. When churches are into branding, the churches are not God’s churches. It’s the leaders taking charge, not letting God be in charge.

  12. Ava Aaronson: Attorney Jeff Anderson is interviewed. Anderson’s advocacy work has been mentioned here at TWW.)

    Jeff Anderson was kind enough to advise me when things happened at my former church. He even offered to represent me if things went south. Thi was reproted to my former church which backed off. He is a decent man who was willing to help someone he didn’t know. SNAP’s Barbara Dorris contacted him for me and he called me. I still have his cell phone number in my list of contacts.

  13. Friend,

    This is an excellent comment about punishment in the Puritan-ruled colony. Thank you. As you probably know, I grew up in Salem and learned all about the witch trials which were essentially land grabs by the rich. When a so-called witch was imprisoned, the wealthy could buy their land. Many of those imprisoned lost everything.

    They eventually “repented” and apologized but from what I remember, the stolen land was not returned to the rightful owner.

  14. Max: We wouldn’t have pulpits like Hybels if it weren’t for a pew that wants pulpits like Hybels. Actors would have no stage if it weren’t for an audience willing to buy tickets to the show.

    Graet comment, as usual. We get whet we want.

  15. Max,

    Thank you. It appears she will be discharged tomorrow. She asked me to call her stylist and tell her that she will need her hair done on Friday for the wedding. I bought her a comfortable wheelchair but she says she will walk into Duke Chapel on her own steam. This shoud be quite the week!

  16. One big beef I have with stuff like this is that Hybels didn’t do ministry on his own. He was a preacher, yes, but he may not have even developed most of his materials and sermons. Most of the day-to-day running of Willow Creek was probably done by people other than him. The concept of “seeker-sensitive church” wasn’t his idea — that came long before he did. And really, I think Jesus was having seeker sensitive services on the side of a mountain back in his lifetime.

    The only celebrity a church should have is God.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Growth

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2000/jul/7/20000707-011717-6842r/

  17. Max: One man can do so much harm when an aberrant teaching is allowed to run unchecked, when a double-life in the pulpit is revealed, when self-interest boots Jesus out of the house.

    “Nowhere do we corrupt so effectively as at the foot of The Enemy’s altar, My Dear Wormwood.”

  18. Shannon H.:
    When churches are into branding, the churches are not God’s churches.It’s the leaders taking charge, not letting God be in charge.

    And the true Branding is Pastor’s brand on the foreheads and right hands of the pewsitters. “MINE! ALL MINE!”

  19. Looks like Owen Strachan has started a dustup over Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS) / Eternal Relations of Authority and Submission (ERAS) on Twitter. A lot of people think that this is heretical as it sounds like (is???) a form of Arianism. Strachan looks for all the world like he wants to dump the Nicene Creed because, well, it undermines his pet doctrine of ESS/ERAS. Maybe this is why Strachan left Midwestern Seminary for what some are calling a “strip mall seminary.” I don’t know.

    Just a reminder: ESS/ERAS posits that since (in their minds) Jesus is subordinate to God the Father, so too women are supposed to be subordinate to men forever. *headdesk* These (Grudem, Ware) came up with ESS/ERAS because they want women to remain subordinate forever, not because they have some new insight into how the Trinity works. That’s a heck of a reason to come up with a doctrine, but no surprise from this bunch.

  20. dee: We get what we want.

    “The prophets prophesy falsely,
    And the priests rule on their own authority;
    And My people love to have it so!
    But what will you do when the end comes?”

    (Jeremiah 5:31 AMP)

  21. Shannon H.: churches are into branding

    The only brand … the only banner … the only label … the only identification we need is Jesus who bought us with a price. There’s no use paying someone else to give us another name, another identity. Brands are for businesses … the real Church of the Living God is not a business! For God’s sake, why don’t we just get back to where we need to be and stop playing games?!!! Only churches which are in the Christian Industrial Complex – rather than the Kingdom of God – would rebrand to attract a targeted market segment. Ridiculous waste of time and money.

  22. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: ESS/ERAS posits that since (in their minds) Jesus is subordinate to God the Father, so too women are supposed to be subordinate to men forever. *headdesk* These (Grudem, Ware) came up with ESS/ERAS because they want women to remain subordinate forever, not because they have some new insight into how the Trinity works. That’s a heck of a reason to come up with a doctrine, but no surprise from this bunch.

    I’ve come to believe this is directly attached to their obsession with authority. They really want everyone to submit, not just women.

    They know that they won’t be as popular with men if they don’t bait them somehow. So they promise them authority over women and then take authority over the men by other means like leadership. I’ve come to realize their “authority” involves a lot of secrecy and lying about male autonomy until someone challenges them. But with the people that follow them, who cares about the autonomy of women?

  23. ishy,

    Well stated.

    Authority: my way or the highway, because, well, I want things my way, which is childish, even in dealing with other adults.

    Too bad the authoritarians can’t put their authority to good use and get the predators out of the church.

  24. “we can honor Bill Hybels for his unique once-in-a-generation ministry contributions, while at the same time acknowledging that he has a “shadow side.””

    Honor where honor is due … when is that balance tipped in ministry?

    Contributions or misapplications?

    “Shadow side”! … what fellowship has light with darkness?

  25. Ava Aaronson: Too bad the authoritarians can’t put their authority to good use and get the predators out of the church.

    Well, they can’t go around kicking out themselves and their friends, now, can they? Then they would be poor and unemployed! 😉

  26. ishy: I’ve come to believe this is directly attached to their obsession with authority.

    From @zillasaurus
    “Some men would rather deny the Trinity to try and prove ‘biblical gender roles’ instead of going to therapy.”

  27. Ava Aaronson: From @zillasaurus
    “Some men would rather deny the Trinity to try and prove ‘biblical gender roles’ instead of going to therapy.”

    It’s so true it hurts, but I know that those kinds of men are the ones that think everyone should be coming to them for therapy, also called “obeying me for my own benefit”. Which is why they invented noutheic counseling….

    I have heard that narcissism has a very low percentage of people who improve through therapy. Though the church shouldn’t be letting them lead anyone…

  28. ishy: I’ve come to realize their “authority” involves a lot of secrecy and lying about male autonomy until someone challenges them. But with the people that follow them, who cares about the autonomy of women?

    What they get the men to buy into is a benevolent dictatorship, when in actuality, there is no such thing as a benevolent dictatorship.
    History has demonstrated this time and time again.

  29. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Strachan looks for all the world like he wants to dump the Nicene Creed because, well, it undermines his pet doctrine of ESS/ERAS. Maybe this is why Strachan left Midwestern Seminary for what some are calling a “strip mall seminary.” I don’t know.

    So long as the potlucks continue, and the social functions are not impacted, the average pew-sitter doesn’t give a rat’s a$$ what Strachan believes or writes papers on.

  30. Muff Potter: What they get the men to buy into is a benevolent dictatorship, when in actuality, there is no such thing as a benevolent dictatorship

    A lot of church covenants don’t even spell that out and just put “respect the elders” so people have no idea what they mean by that. It’s sorta like how they use the words “Gospel” or “grace”.

    There are those that do, though, and I still can’t figure out why people would join a church like that, but they do. I know one guy I talked to said he believed in his heart they would make him an elder and let him make decisions and “lead” others. Then he became one and found out he was just a yes-man to the pastor (and they made it clear they would publicly kick him out if he ever went against the pastor). I guess it’s really attractive to ambitious men, but usually only one ambitious man prevails, and he started the church.

  31. ishy: I guess it’s really attractive to ambitious men, but usually only one ambitious man prevails, and he started the church.

    Great insight. How much envy (if any) do you think is afoot… men imagining themselves in the all-powerful Planter Class?

  32. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: ESS/ERAS posits that since (in their minds) Jesus is subordinate to God the Father

    If one person is subordinate to another, how are they supposed to be One? ESS strikes me as more polytheistic than monotheistic, personally.

  33. Wild Honey: If one person is subordinate to another, how are they supposed to be One? ESS strikes me as more polytheistic than monotheistic, personally.

    Well, there’s that, obviously. I just find it remarkable that these guys would summarily trash one of the foundational doctrines of the age of councils in order to cook up some crazy to get at the feminists.

  34. This all reminds of a political cartoon I saw in one of the news magazines [I tried to google it, but no luck]: an archbishop in full regalia and shepherd’s crook, standing in the midst of of wolf pack, and saying ” OH!! You mean I’m supposed to guard THE SHEEP?”

  35. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: ust a reminder: ESS/ERAS posits that since (in their minds) Jesus is subordinate to God the Father, so too women are supposed to be subordinate to men forever. *headdesk* These (Grudem, Ware) came up with ESS/ERAS because they want women to remain subordinate forever, not because they have some new insight into how the Trinity works.

    Grudem, Ware, and Ware’s son-in-law (Strachan) lost their argument back in 2016. If you want to read an excellent book on this subject I highly recommend The Rise and Fall of the Complementarian Doctrine of the Trinity by Kevin Giles. Here is a quote:

    “To avoid the dangers appealing to the Trinity as the basis for what we believed about the relationship of the sexes, we must make our starting point in thinking about the Trinity the hard won and repeatedly tested conclusions as to what the Scriptures teach on the Trinity, given in the creeds and confessions of the church. It is to these documents that evangelical and Reformed theologians must return at this time as they seek to articulate afresh the doctrine of the Trinity now that the complementarian hierarchical doctrine of the Trinity has been rejected. What the story of the rise and fall of the complementarian doctrine of the Trinity makes plain is just how disastrous it is when theologians ignore or reject the trinitarian tradition of the church and head off alone. Rejecting and denigrating the doctrinal tradition, Knight, Grudem, Ware, and others, devised a doctrine of the Trinity that reflected and confirmed what was most important to them, the subordination of women, and then they found texts and human analogies that made their novel doctrine sound “biblical.” Coming to Scripture with the wrong presuppositions, they came to wrong conclusions. Those who are now to lead the evangelical and Reformed family back to doctrinal orthodoxy must come to Scripture with the presuppositions given in the creeds and confessions of the church. These are presuppositions worked out by the best of theologians across the centuries, communally endorsed, and found in every age to be sure guides to a right reading of Scripture.”

  36. Todd Wilhelm,

    Thanks for this. I appreciate the quote from a “ outside source” w/r to background on this “heresy”… you really have to wonder….

  37. Todd Wilhelm: Grudem, Ware, and Ware’s son-in-law (Strachan) lost their argument back in 2016.

    In his Systematic Theology Grudem described the Father as a father/husband in a family, the Son as the wife who must obey her husband, and the Spirit as the child who must obey both mother and father.

  38. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I just find it remarkable that these guys would summarily trash one of the foundational doctrines of the age of councils in order to cook up some crazy to get at the feminists.

    It’s one of the many benefits that come with rediscovering the gospel after the deep and widespread apostasy that overcame the early church after the death of the original apostles…

  39. “Men Like Bill Hybels Have Been in the Church for 2,000 Years and Many Still Don’t Get It”

    Scripture gives us some clues why the multitudes still don’t get it, why the pew is so easily deceived by the pulpit:

    “I could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ” (1 Corinthians 3:1-3)

    “You have become dull of hearing … you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food” (Hebrews 5:11-13)

    “children in your thinking” (1 Corinthians 14:20)

    “held in bondage under the elemental things of the world” (Galatians 4:3)

    “tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming” (Ephesians 4:14)

    So, what’s the answer? How do the multitudes climb out of this religious hole? How can they escape the enemy’s snare in church? How can they discern right from wrong coming from the pulpit? Well, Scripture offers the same solution as always:

    “IF My people, who are called by My Name, humble themselves, and pray and seek (crave, require as a necessity) My face and turn from their wicked ways, THEN I will hear them from heaven, and forgive their sin and heal their land” (2 Chronicles 7:14)

    IF … THEN … but will we “crave and require as necessity” the way back to the genuine? I suspect the multitudes will determine this is just too hard and continue to do counterfeit church as usual. You have to pour yourself into the Word to discern the counterfeit. You have to repent and pray. You have to seek God, not men. Meanwhile, God waits.

  40. Todd Wilhelm: Grudem, Ware, and Ware’s son-in-law (Strachan) lost their argument back in 2016. If you want to read an excellent book on this subject I highly recommend The Rise and Fall of the Complementarian Doctrine of the Trinity by Kevin Giles. Here is a quote:

    I wonder, did Grudem, Ware, and Streichan ever offer rebuttal when the other big guns of Protestantism called them out?

  41. Ken F (aka Tweed): In his Systematic Theology Grudem described the Father as a father/husband in a family, the Son as the wife who must obey her husband, and the Spirit as the child who must obey both mother and father.

    What’s wrong with this thinking?

    Given that parents always care about their kids… the truth is that the father/parental role of authority ends when a child grows up and becomes an adult. People don’t remain children subordinate to their dads forever.

    They create & promote a myth, a lie, to build their false hierarchy of spiritual authority, christofascism.

    Ezekiel 18 articulates perfectly how each generation is responsible for themselves.

    “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity…”

  42. ishy: I guess it’s really attractive to ambitious men, but usually only one ambitious man prevails, and he started the church.

    In the Piper BBC scenario, the group that followed has now split the church.

  43. Ava Aaronson: Ezekiel 18 articulates perfectly how each generation is responsible for themselves.

    This is why I keep reading the Bible. Little nuggets of truth pop up that totally fly in the face of the snake oil coming from some pulpits & swallowed hook, line, & sinker by rubes that don’t bother & read their own Bibles for themselves.

    Reading the whole Bible for oneself makes one far less impressionable by the false teachers & preachers. Fact. The Bible explains itself pretty well, bypassing the seminaries that produce the false teachers & preachers.

    Then the true scholars, like @MargMowczko step up as added bonus. She never contradicts what we can see in the Bible for ourselves, she enhances.

  44. Todd Wilhelm,

    “Grudem, Ware, and Ware’s son-in-law (Strachan) lost their argument back in 2016.”
    ++++++++++++++

    i was paying attention.

    i was waiting for some kind of reaction, response, statement from CBMW. nothing. radio silence.

    a number of months later they finally and suddenly come back to life. with a big splash: The Nashville Statement.

    Emblazoned as the heading on their website, their twitter home page. their new identity, their new raison d’etre.

    not a word about the trounced debate at the Evangelical Theological Society, 2016, San Antonio.

    instead, they reinvented themselves by simply switching targets to a different people group to legislate against. An effort to find a new support base, creating a new PR-driven In-Group, united in their opposition to the Out-Group.

    a feverish attempt to justify themselves, consolidation of power, by stoking the culture war fires and focussing on a new enemy group of human beings. set up with an inherent blackmail feature if you don’t sign.

    all to save their own skins. and power, careers and revenue.

  45. Ava Aaronson: In the Piper BBC scenario, the group that followed has now split the church.

    In my experience, celebrity megachurches are almost doomed to failure after the celebrity leaves. So Bethlehem’s demise is not a surprise to me. Personality cults can’t survive without a personality…

  46. ishy: Personality cults can’t survive without a personality…

    Seems to be the case. They can’t survive without THE personality they were built on, the original guru who built the thing. (Not Jesus, obviously.) True test of whether “church” was simply empire building by an emperor and his sycophants.

    The emperors are household names, some internationally, some local. When a church is about the pastor, his name is the brand.

  47. dee:
    Friend,

    They eventually “repented” and apologized but from what I remember, the stolen land was not returned to the rightful owner.

    Reminiscent of today’s “Oopsie, mistakes were made, if anyone was offended“ versions of mea culpas. Not hearing a lot of people restoring fourfold like Zaccheus.

  48. ishy: Personality cults

    It’s a great day when a person sitting in the pew sees beyond the pulpit up front there on the stage. When they see there is so much more to their relationship with God than what happens on that stage, on that televised broadcast, at those conferences, in the religious industrial complex bestseller books. Angels rejoice in Heaven at this sacred epiphany.

    Been there, done that.

  49. Ava Aaronson: the DNA of repentance

    We seldom see this with “restored” celebrity pastors before they return to the pulpit. They launch unrepentant comebacks somewhere else after a short disappearance and do their thing all over again. Keeping them out the pulpit depends on an educated pew about their prior misbehaving … but most pews in America have their head in the sand about these things. Somewhere in America soon, another church will be saying “Wow! Pastor Bad-Boy sure can preach!”

  50. Wild Honey: If one person is subordinate to another, how are they supposed to be One? ESS strikes me as more polytheistic than monotheistic, personally.

    I’m not defending it but ESS is an attempt to make christianity more monotheistic.

    The Trinity doesn’t really make sense. We have 3 aspects of God – father, son & holy spirit. But when Jesus was earth, he spoke of his father in seperate terms. He even prayed to his Father. So what happened? Split personality?

    One of the charges against christianity is that by making God, Jesus, holy spirit equal, you’re creating a polytheism. Hence the Trinity. One God, three aspects.

    A lot of authoritarian folks really like the old testament because of its hard line linearity. God, priests, monarch, men and then in no particular order cattle, children and women.

    The Trinity screws that up a bit, so Jesus now becomes a seperate entity less than the father.

    So now we ignore some of that “love thy neighbor” stuff and get everything back into a nice, straight, line – that handily places the priestly class in a place of power.

    How ESS places the father-son dynamic into a marriage dynamic is quasi incestuous, but in that philosophy, the weird becomes normal so whatever

    It’s making it up to suit whatever outcome you desire.

    It’s the RC Church obsession with Mary. Our Lady becomes more important than Jesus.

  51. Jack: I’m not defending it but ESS is an attempt to make christianity more monotheistic.

    I think you’re right, but I think it’s for much simpler reasons for that. They can’t imagine a world in which they are not in control, so they imagine God the same way.

    I don’t think they really believe God predestined them or controls them, however much they might claim. They are in charge and everyone should bow to that.

  52. ishy: Personality cults can’t survive without a personality…

    Every organization takes on the personality of its leadership after awhile … be it a business or a church. When the personality becomes worshiped and adored, it becomes a cult. There are many religious personality cults in America, ranging from a local church of less than 100 to mega-mania numbering in the thousands. Mega usually starts out mini somewhere. God, of course, keeps His distance in such places, where pride overrules His presence.

  53. ishy,

    It is interesting that Ishy is bringing up the “predestined” aspect… The fundamentalist Baptist I came out of were definitely free will Baptist (GARBC), and definitely independent, but they still had “iron-fisted” control…. as has been said, get ride of a single Pope for a bunch of little “popes”…
    My point is that it seems not mater what the “theology”; it always seems to boil down to power and control, and “cover up” the transgressions of the “big shots” but stick it to the pew peons..
    For example, Mormon banks really helped by loaning the $$$ to build Los Vegas into the “sin city” that it is, yet heaven forbid a pew peon Mormon work the casinos..

  54. Jeffrey J Chalmers: it seems not matter what the “theology”; it always seems to boil down to power and control, and “cover up” the transgressions of the “big shots” but stick it to the pew peons..

    Yes, TWW has recorded these sins within various theologies. Wherever the backdoor is open long enough, you can bet that bad boys will come in. Most pews ain’t got a clue, easy targets.

  55. Max: Most pews ain’t got a clue, easy targets.

    Along-for-the-ride “Christians”.

    Matthew 13, Jesus taught the parables of the wheat and the tares, and birds in the tree.

  56. Jeffrey J Chalmers: My point is that it seems not mater what the “theology”; it always seems to boil down to power and control

    “The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering upon the Powerless.”
    — George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four

  57. Ava Aaronson: It’s a great day when a person sitting in the pew sees beyond the pulpit up front there on the stage.

    THAT is the original meaning of “Discernment” – to see the Reality beneath the Appearance.

  58. ishy: Personality cults can’t survive without a personality…

    And few Jossph Smiths are succeeded by a Brigham Young who could turn the personality cult into a self-sustaining system.

  59. Ava Aaronson: “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity…”

    So much for the threat of “Generational Curses”.

    I’m convinced the original meaning of “Generation Curses (unto the Nth generation) were originally poetic language for how when every generation raises the one after it, they will pass on and imprint their flaws and problems in the next. Because they’re raising the next to think “This is What’s Normal”.

  60. Jack: The Trinity doesn’t really make sense.

    Actually, no view of God (including atheism) makes sense. Every single “ism” out there runs into contradictions at one point or another. I think very good arguments can be made that the Trinity makes better sense than the alternatives, but this also depends on how quite a lot of terms are defined. Some of the best explanations of the Trinity come from Eastern Orthodoxy, but they don’t have a monopoly on it. In any case, any explanation of God that makes sense would have to be rejected because there is no way for finite minds to fully understand any possible concept of God (or no God). Are you familiar with apophatic theology? It’s one way of describing an indescribable God.

  61. Ava Aaronson: Ezekiel 18 articulates perfectly how each generation is responsible for themselves.

    “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity…”

    Not very supportive for PSA doctrine (penal substitutionary atonement).

  62. Muff Potter: Not very supportive for PSA doctrine (penal substitutionary atonement).

    … and there’s a lot more to the Biblical narrative than this verse, particularly regarding atonement. Atonement is what’s offered thereafter, since both adult dad & adult son do sin, in any case. Adult dad does not rule with authority over adult son. Both must seek God as adults. No hierarchy for salvation, with regard to all adults.

    Not a verse ripe for cherry-picking re: atonement.

  63. Ken F (aka Tweed): In any case, any explanation of God that makes sense would have to be rejected because there is no way for finite minds to fully understand any possible concept of God (or no God).

    Yes.

    And Jesus came live. Not as an “ism”, nor establishing seminaries, selling books, recording CDs, producing vids, holding conferences. Jesus did like suppers, as in the Upper Room, and fish fries on the beach.

    Holy Spirit indwells in like manner. Live.

  64. Headless Unicorn Guy: Because they’re raising the next to think “This is What’s Normal”.

    I really appreciate your comment, HUG, reminding everyone from non-Christian families, to give it a go – live your best life with Jesus. Church doesn’t always treat 1st generation Christians well.

    The point of Ezekiel 18 is exactly as you point out. The prophet quotes the standard mantra, then declares it as totally wrong. “What they say” is declared bogus with a new message: This is what God says. The New New Thing.

  65. Ava Aaronson: nor establishing seminaries, selling books, recording CDs, producing vids, holding conferences.

    The Sola Scriptura folks apparently don’t see the irony in how heavily they push all these things. Or they see it and hope that we won’t.

  66. Ken F (aka Tweed): The Sola Scriptura folks apparently don’t see the irony in how heavily they push all these things. Or they see it and hope that we won’t.

    Great comment. Thanks. Yes, the irony of it all. Guess “the rest of us” are not so blind, deaf, & dumb, after all. LOL.

    I’ve always held that the person most remote and most desperate on this Earth has as much of a chance as everyone else, ‘cuz God.

    John 3, where Jesus is ‘splaining:
    “…everyone who looks up to Him (Son of God, Jesus, our Savior), trusting and expectant, will gain a real life, eternal life.”

    No mention of all the $tuff $elling at the table$ in the $anctuary marketplace.

  67. Ken F (aka Tweed): The Sola Scriptura folks apparently don’t see the irony in how heavily they push all these things. Or they see it and hope that we won’t.

    Well, the New Calvinist elite certainly don’t! Scripture alone just doesn’t fit their modus operandi. They think ‘they alone’ are the infallible source of truth since they are always twisting it to fit some pet doctrine (e.g., eternal subordination of Jesus, complementarian bondage of women, overlord control of the laity, etc.).

  68. Muff Potter: I wonder, did Grudem, Ware, and Streichan ever offer rebuttal when the other big guns of Protestantism called them out?

    I am not certain, but I believe they did. Below is another good quote from Kevin Giles:

    “What adds great weight to these calls for a rethink of complementarianism, the most strident voices coming from complementarians, is that before June 2016 the most significant leaders of the complementarian movement argued that their theology stood or fell with their beliefs about the Trinity. The subordination of the Son and the subordination of women were inextricably connected, as 1 Corinthians 11:3 proved, they claimed.

    Wayne Grudem said for twenty-five years that he believed that how the Trinity is understood “may well turn out to be the most decisive factor in finally deciding” the bitter debate between evangelicals about what the Bible teaches on the status and ministry of women.

    Dr. Jared Moore, in his 2015 review of One God in Three Persons, written for the Southern Baptist Convention website, says,

    If complementarians can prove that there is a hierarchy in the immanent (ontological) Trinity, then they win, for if a hierarchy exists among the Three Persons of God, and these Three Persons are equally God, then surely God can create men and women equal yet with differing roles in the church and home.

    Given that the complementarian doctrine of a hierarchically ordered Trinity has now been abandoned, even by leaders of the complementarian movement, and that they have agreed that 1 Corinthians 11:3 neither subordinates the Son nor women, the reality of a major crisis for complementarian theology cannot be denied. Their loss of the civil war over the Trinity means that they cannot avoid a time of reconstruction where they examine afresh what the Scriptures actually teach on the relationship of the sexes, without any appeal to the Trinity.”

    Giles, Kevin. The Rise and Fall of the Complementarian Doctrine of the Trinity . Cascade Books, an Imprint of Wipf and Stock Publishers. Kindle Edition.

  69. Muff Potter: Better than Raiders of the Lost Ark?

    I was thinking more along the lines of Aphrael/Danae from the Elenium and Tamuli series by David Eddings.

  70. Ava Aaronson: the truth is that the father/parental role of authority ends when a child grows up and becomes an adult. People don’t remain children subordinate to their dads forever.

    They create & promote a myth, a lie, to build their false hierarchy of spiritual authority, christofascism.

    Ezekiel 18 articulates perfectly how each generation is responsible for themselves.

    “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity…”

    You bring up something really interesting.

    For the record, I completely agree that a parent’s “authority” over their children ends when the children become adults.

    But there are a lot of cultures around the world where this is not the case. Nor was it the situation in the Roman Empire of the NT, where the paterfamilias had literal power of life and death over his grown children, even sons (though restrained by social convention, etc.).

    In this way, the passage you reference from Ezekiel is counter-cultural.

    This is just my anecdotal observations, but those promoting gender hierarchy in Christianity often also translate the “honor your father and mother” passages as “obey your father [and sometimes mother]” with no clear end point this side of the grave.

    So, whose culture are they following? That of scripture, or that of pagan Rome?

  71. Wild Honey: In this way, the passage you reference from Ezekiel is counter-cultural.

    It is counter-cultural and Ezekiel points this out.

    Regarding honoring parents, yes, always. If one’s parent is a criminal, honor them by living a upstanding life, but beware of obeying them as an adult.

    Honor vs obey.

  72. Wild Honey: So, whose culture are they following? That of scripture, or that of pagan Rome?

    Rebecca Davis writes of:
    “Untwisting Scriptures that were used to tie you up, gag you and tangle your mind: Book 1, and Book 2 Patriarchy and Authority.”

    https://heresthejoy.com

    Her latest post untwists some name-brand teachings (she includes the names with quotes). Wow.

    I like these straight-talkin’ bloggers like Rebecca Davis, and right here at TWW, Dee Parsons. Refreshing. Empowering, for “the rest of us”.

  73. Wild Honey: a parent’s “authority” over their children ends when the children become adults.

    And some of the issues that arise stem from defining when a person becomes an adult…and a person might be considered an adult in one area of life but not another.

  74. Ava Aaronson: counter-cultural

    Many of the problems we see in church is that the “people of God” just don’t want to get far from the culture. The culture has its celebrities, so we must have one in the pulpit at church. To attract the culture, we must give them something they want; we must live and act like them a bit. If we’re going to do church in the 21st century, we must be culturally-relevant. etc. etc. go the arguments.

    There was a time in America when the church was counter-culture to the world. Now, it is a sub-culture of it.

  75. Max: If we’re going to do church in the 21st century, we must be culturally-relevant. etc. etc. go the arguments.

    – seeker sensitive
    – big screens, fog machines, skinny jeans
    – scantily clad “praise & worship” teams
    – Pastor Cool
    – coffee shop in the church foyer
    – relevant, but unBiblical, sermons
    – pews swimming in shallow water
    – irreverence at every turn
    – etc. etc.

  76. Max: There was a time in America when the church was counter-culture to the world. Now, it is a sub-culture of it.

    At one time I would have agreed, but maybe the picture was more complicated. Some churches have now fully embraced materialism, loud pop music, and tight clothing. This trend undercuts traditional Christian ideas about charity and modesty.

    In the past, though, churches did reflect the culture. Our family church thought it was Christian to support the war in Vietnam—not good or bad, but Christian. The congregation was fairly determined to remain segregated, too.

  77. Friend: In the past, though, churches did reflect the culture. Our family church thought it was Christian to support the war in Vietnam—not good or bad, but Christian. The congregation was fairly determined to remain segregated, too.

    Yeah, corners of the American church have been a mess for a long time. We haven’t scared the devil much in decades.

  78. Ken F (aka Tweed): Are you familiar with apophatic theology? It’s one way of describing an indescribable God.

    Lol, you always give me something new to look up

    Not familiar with apophatic theology.

    But growing up Anglican, the creed was a an important part of the service. We either said the apostles or Nicene creed (pretty much the same) and that was declaration that whatever our individual differences, we could agree on that.

    The Trinity is integral to nearly all streams of Christianity so again whether you believe in infant or adult baptism, old or young earth creationism at least there’s a common ground.

    Having a belief is one thing, but the motivation behind subordinating Jesus is about implementation of control. To rationalize a strict, hierarchical authoritarian structure.

    While I don’t understand the Trinity, I’d be leery of a denomination that pitched it.

    ESS seems to be the child of demographic that perceives itself under siege. Only through strong leadership can we prevail. No deep thinking and no big words like apophatic.

    Easy answers that ignore the nuances of the human condition. No debate required.

    I never trust oversimplification, and everything should be up for debate.

    Now I’m going to look up apophatic…

  79. Jack: but the motivation behind subordinating Jesus is about implementation of control. To rationalize a strict, hierarchical authoritarian structure.

    Christo-fascism.

    The 9th fruit of the Spirit is self-control.
    Jesus warns against seeking to dominate or control others.

    How odd that out of this new paradigm of control in church (covenants, subordination of women, removal of women teachers/professors, church discipline, etc.), out of all of this “control”, comes a database from @RobDownenChron of hundreds of criminals right in the pulpits.
    https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/investigations/abuse-of-faith/

    Major disconnect.

  80. Jack: the motivation behind subordinating Jesus is about implementation of control

    Yes, if you can get away with subordinating the Son of God, you can pretty much do anything you darn well please. It paves the way for diminutive men to manipulate, intimidate and dominate a congregation. They can exercise complete authoritarian control of elders and members, preach what they want to, enslave women to the beauty of complementarity, delegate ministry to others, drink coffee, play golf, etc. They can avoid the “dirty work” of pastoring: getting to know church members, visiting the sick in hospitals, praying with those in nursing homes, preaching funerals, etc. etc. … you know, what shepherds are supposed to do.

  81. Ava Aaronson: Major disconnect

    The majorist (is that a word?) of major disconnects in the American church is detachment from the Kingdom of God. Most churchgoers don’t even know what that is.

  82. Jack: Easy answers that ignore the nuances of the human condition. No debate required.

    It’s also possible to complicate a thing to such a degree that its original attributes are lost in the distance.

  83. Max: major disconnects

    Robert Harrington (self-identified former Evangelical) has an article today at the Palmer Report website about misinformation/conspiracy theories & their “darlings”. He calls one such darling, “Dr. Zero”.

    1. Harrington terms these darlings super-spreaders, distributing misinformation to the masses, for great harm in society. They don’t care who they harm.
    2. He noted that when confronted with actual data or research (which oppose the super-spreader’s invented data), they run & hide (he gives an actual example of this behavior): “their bravado evaporates”.
    3. “Follow the money”. The misinformation super-spreader is an educated expert but he trades his reputation and integrity for fame & fortune by promoting wacky misinformation to become a MSM celeb or narcissist. He makes money off the lies he sells.

    I believe we have these conspiracy theorist misinformation super-spreader darlings in the church among us.

    They invented:
    – the hierarchy of the Trinity
    – complementarianism
    – church covenants
    – nouthetic counseling
    – hierarchy of genders (even in civil society).

    And more:
    – Name it, claim it
    – Prosperity “gospel”
    – disease is a lack of faith.

  84. Jack: Easy answers that ignore the nuances of the human condition. No debate required.

    Ees Party Line, Comrades.
    Recite Without Thinking OR ELSE!

  85. Jack: Having a belief is one thing, but the motivation behind subordinating Jesus is about implementation of control. To rationalize a strict, hierarchical authoritarian structure.

    This also explains why so many Christians are deeply madly in LOVE with Dictators and Dictatorships.

    Like Bella deeply madly in LOVE with EDWARD (sparkle sparkle).
    Or Harley Quinn deeply madly in LOVE with her Joker.

  86. Ava Aaronson: How odd that out of this new paradigm of control in church (covenants, subordination of women, removal of women teachers/professors, church discipline, etc.), out of all of this “control”, comes a database from @RobDownenChron of hundreds of criminals right in the pulpits.

    Simple.
    If they’re in POWER by Divine Right, they can’t be criminals.

    “I have the absolute right to do anything to anyone.”
    — Caesar Caligula

  87. So…I guess the Baseball Hall of Fame has higher standards than Willow Creek? Remember when they wouldn’t let Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame since he bet on (and against) his own team? A player with a record of his magnitude was left out of the Hall of Fame because of the ugly things he did as a coach, as well it should be!

    However, Pete’s transgressions pale in comparison to the wicked deeds of Bill Hybels’ “shadow side”. Who would dare want to elevate and exonerate a man like that?!? I loved Max’s quote from II Corinthians 6–it kind of hits the nail on the head!
    And what kind of soft-peddling, new-speak christianese lingo is the term “shadow side” anyhow? Ugh!

    Additionally, the church’s desire to undergo a professional “re-branding” in order to draw in a whole new group of ‘all-day-suckers’ is something I find equally appalling as well! It is definitely pretty high up there on the “ICK” factor! It is setting off all of my internal ‘garbage’ sensors.

    Hey, here’s a thought–why doesn’t Willow Creek preach Christ and Him crucified, instead of starting a publicity campaign and ‘re-branding’ itself? THAT might work!

  88. Root 66: Willow Creek preach Christ and Him crucified, instead of starting a publicity campaign and ‘re-branding’

    Bill Hybels and his seeker-friendly philosophy removed the Cross from the sanctuary, lest it bother seekers too much. Preaching Christ and Him crucified to sinners was too hard a message, just not seeker-sensitive.

  89. Root 66: Hey, here’s a thought–why doesn’t Willow Creek preach Christ and Him crucified, instead of starting a publicity campaign and ‘re-branding’ itself? THAT might work!

    Not the Willow Creek brand.
    Nor the __________ brand.
    Lots of brands out there nowadays, each with their Darling Dear Leaders, each having a Merry Band of Sycophants. Hey Boyz n Gals, Let’s do “Church”!
    Who knew that freedom of religion in American would come to this?
    There are countries that do not share our Freedom of Religion problems.

  90. Max: Bill Hybels and his seeker-friendly philosophy removed the Cross from the sanctuary, lest it bother seekers too much. Preaching Christ and Him crucified to sinners was too hard a message, just not seeker-sensitive.

    I Corinthians 1:18, “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” Thanks, Paul.
    I couldn’t have said it better myself!

  91. Root 66: Willow Creek

    A nationally renowned-in-her-field woman pastor who worked at Willow Creek left WCC and relocated to our area, getting a new & better position with another national ministry. She said WCC treated her horribly, the pay was bad, staff relations were demeaning. Yuck.

    If Christians listened to the folks closest to the situation and respected their inside experiences, it would save the church in general from lots of potholes and even some black holes.

    No one listened to Jules Woodson, for example. Etc.

    Right now, in Moscow, Idaho, the folks who live there cry “Foul” about tax fraud, lying, sex abuse cover-ups, plagiarism, etc. https://www.facebook.com/ExaminingMoscow/
    There’s a great deal of documentation regarding deep flaws.

    “Too big to fail” seems to be “Too big to get real and face facts”, among Christian sycophants.

    Rather be an outlier looking for friends/fellowship than a sycophant drowning in a toxic soup.

  92. Side note: People comment as being the 1st to comment on a new post by Dee, or Todd.

    There’s the opposite experience here at TWW. That is, writing a comment on a post when a new post pops up and everybody has already moved on but as a commenter in progress, one does not know that no one is there. Everyone is already at the new post. It happens. You’re alone and you don’t know it. All part of the TWW experience. LOL.

    Imagine this will happen sometime tonight. Life is full of surprises. We never know when.

  93. Ava Aaronson: when a new post pops up and everybody has already moved on but as a commenter in progress, one does not know that no one is there.

    I usually keep two or even three TWW tabs open. Comments taper off but don’t usually stop right away.

  94. Ava Aaronson: Rather be an outlier looking for friends/fellowship than a sycophant drowning in a toxic soup.

    Me too:
    Horror grips us as we watch you die
    All we can do is echo your anguished cries
    Stare as all human feelings die
    We are leaving, you don’t need us…

    — Crosby, Kantner, and Stills —

  95. Ava Aaronson: “Too big to fail”

    Not according to Jesus:

    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works in Your name?’ But then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice evil.’” (Matthew 7)

  96. dee,

    ‘entertainment’ is sometimes wanted instead of ‘Church’ so then come the ‘actors’ and the clowns and worse . . . so sad, but true

  97. Jack: Hence the Trinity. One God, three aspects

    Jack, I hope I am misunderstanding what you are saying. To say that God sometimes shows up as the Father and sometimes as the Son and sometimes as the Holy Spirit is called modalism (different modes to God) – also also called Sabellianism. It is an ancient heresy that has been debunked. A classic illustration that this is false occurs at the baptism of Jesus where are three persons of the Godhead are present at the same time. God the Father is in heaven and announces that Jesus is His beloved Son. Jesus, the second person of the godhead is in the water, and the Holy Spirit is descending like a dove. All three persons of the godhead have the same attributes and characteristics which differentiates this from polytheism where there are different gods with different characteristics. It was Jesus Christ, who died on the cross and rose again for our sins and failures, not God the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is not modalism. Hope that helps. There are some good resources available to check this out. I don’t claim to have mastered it, but Scripture is plain as to this teaching of the Trinity.

  98. There is a lot about all of this that concerns me. But something that I think is a glaring problem, and there have been a few in the comment threads who have pointed this out. That is that they expected the church to grow through “better marketing.” The main attraction is to be Jesus – who He is and what He has done for us. When the disciples pointed out that many were stopping following Jesus because He had some hard things to say about what it means to be a follower of Jesus,(taking up your cross daily, for example), Jesus didn’t call for a better marketing program. He asked His disciples if there were going to leave too. There response was no, because you have the words of life. The main attraction for a church that belongs to Jesus is JESUS!

  99. christiane: ‘entertainment’ is sometimes wanted instead of ‘Church’ so then come the ‘actors’ and the clowns and worse

    The Great God Entertainment sits on the throne in much of the American church. “Religious entertainment” should be an oxymoron in the minds of Christians, but it’s become so commonplace now that the average believer doesn’t give it much thought. It’s crowding out the serious things of God. Many
    “pastors” desire to be celebrities, so they build stages over prayer altars to strut their stuff. Throw in fog machines, laser lights, loud band, and a scantily-clad praise & worship team and you’ve got a great show to attract the masses! Yep, the Great God Entertainment has it under control and the people love to have it so.

  100. Don Jones: It was Jesus Christ, who died on the cross and rose again for our sins and failures, not God the Father or the Holy Spirit.

    I no longer subscribe to the doctrine of PSA (penal substitutionary atonement).
    My conscience won’t let me:

    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    — Ezekiel 18:20 —

  101. Max: The Great God Entertainment sits on the throne in much of the American church.

    It’s as American as Whoppers and Big Macs.

  102. Don Jones: Jack, I hope I am misunderstanding what you are saying. To say that God sometimes shows up as the Father and sometimes as the Son and sometimes as the Holy Spirit is called modalism (different modes to God) – also also called Sabellianism. It is an ancient heresy that has been debunked. A classic illustration that this is false occurs at the baptism of Jesus where are three persons of the Godhead are present at the same time. God the Father is in heaven and announces that Jesus is His beloved Son. Jesus, the second person of the godhead is in the water, and the Holy Spirit is descending like a dove. All three persons of the godhead have the same attributes and characteristics which differentiates this from polytheism where there are different gods with different characteristics. It was Jesus Christ, who died on the cross and rose again for our sins and failures, not God the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is not modalism. Hope that helps. There are some good resources available to check this out. I don’t claim to have mastered it, but Scripture is plain as to this teaching of the Trinity.

    Hi Don, thanks for the explanation.

    I was a Christian for most of my life, and apparently had no clue what I was believing in.

    I have a hunch that I’m not alone.

    The Trinity appears to be whatever a given Christian wants it to be.

    As I’ve mentioned, Jesus always refers to his father, and prays to him. The devil tempts in the wilderness. Was he tempting God? Maybe the devil’s as confused as I am.

    I can see why ess holds an allure. Simple , straight line authority.

    In answer, I guess my understanding is modalist, or sabellianialist.

    Man, I haven’t even looked up apophatic theology yet.

    Blinkers, now I’m a heretic too.

    Thunderstorm outside, guess I better not stand too close to the window…

  103. Jack,

    Jack, the Holy Trinity models making room for the other other – for the widow and the orphan – James, Is 55, 58, 61 refer.

  104. Ava Aaronson: Hey Boyz n Gals, Let’s do “Church”!

    Our “distinctives” is “what we do”, now we can feature in Emile Durkheim’s catalogue of specimen behaviours, yippee!

  105. Headless Unicorn Guy: raising the next to think “This is What’s Normal”

    Yes. Because since Holy Spirit, we don’t need Girardian mimetics (replicating the victim mentality) any more; if bad befalls us we can simply take it on its own terms, instead of rationalising such as “the big man with the microphone / meanminded greatuncle says it’s because God thinks I’m too stupid to deserve better”.

  106. Muff Potter: It’s as American as Whoppers and Big Macs.

    Yep, “Big Mac” is now in the pulpit telling us “whoppers!” And the people of God love it so!

  107. Jack: Glad I’m not the only one. Will the real Trinity please stand up?

    The older I get, the less I care about what academics and churchmen (past and present) say about the Trinity.
    I’m far happier just to let it be in this here and now.

  108. Muff Potter: I no longer subscribe to the doctrine of PSA (penal substitutionary atonement).
    My conscience won’t let me:

    Hi Muff – my conscience won’t allow me to reject the plain teaching of Scripture.1 Cor 15:3 (for example) “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,….” (There are many other passages that teach us that Christ bore our sins and our failures. Jesus volunteered for a rescue mission that only He could accomplish. If we apply the Ezekiel alone passage to atonement, then that means that there is no hope for any of us since we all sin and therefore all must die under the penalty of our sin. There is no hope for eternal life. I’m truly grateful that Scripture invites us to accept the complete work of Christ on the cross for our sins and therefore we stand in His righteous before God.

  109. Jack: The devil tempts in the wilderness. Was he tempting God? Maybe the devil’s as confused as I am.

    Hi Jack, yes, the Devil was attempting to tempt Jesus who is God and the Devil understood that Jesus was God. The Devil was attempting to derail God’s plan of salvation (redemption) which is woven throughout all of Scripture. If Satan or the Devil was able to cause Jesus to sin, then Jesus could not be the Savior of the world because He would be a sinner in need of a Savior to pay for His sin.

    In fact the demons (fallen angels on Satan’s team) cried out – “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.” Luke 4:34. Satan was originally created good and chose to rebel against God. So we shouldn’t be surprised that knowing that Jesus was/is God, he attempted to derail the mission of Jesus. It was on the cross that Jesus fulfilled hundreds of years of prophecy that this event would ultimately lead to the defeat of Satan. For example, victory over physical death as Jesus rose from the dead He demonstrated that there is life after life for those who have accepted His free gift of eternal life purchased by his death, burial and resurrection. Hope that helps a bit.

  110. Don Jones: the complete work of Christ

    Reading the entire Bible for oneself can be an excellent experience.

    Kids find interesting nuggets never preached about from the pulpit. The prophet who jabbed a knife into the fat belly of a rather naughty king so the king’s “entrails” poured out of his middle. Eewwww. “What’s are entrails?” they ask.

  111. Michael in UK: Our “distinctives”

    “Distinctives” seems to be a trend in trendy churches these days. Rather than explaining how their church is like other churches, it’s more like one fast food chain explaining how their fries are different from the fries in all the other chains.

  112. Don Jones: the plain teaching of Scripture

    This is where things always go south – thousands of denominations divide over their different interpretations of “the plain teaching of Scripture” on many different issues. Not too many years ago I was a firm believer in penal substitution. It was quite a shock to me when I learned the “plain teaching of Scripture” did not include penal substitution until John Calvin revealed it to the world. Isn’t it odd that it took 1500 years for Christianity to discover the true meaning of the atonement? I have done tons of reading on it in the mean time and I am now convinced that penal substitution ranks among the worst explanations of the atonement.

  113. Dee, I hope your Mom is better by the time you review this comment.

    ONE of the things that has irritated me about the “discernment blogs” like Wartburg, has always been their seeming lack of historical perspective. As Solomon so wisely said, “There is nothing new under the sun.”
    *
    It’s good to see some badly needed historical perspective given in your post.

  114. Don Jones: know who you are—the Holy One of God.” Luke 4:3

    Thanks again, Don.

    But I noticed the quote states “of God” but does not address Jesus as God.

    So I can see the point of the side stating that Jesus & God are separate entities.

    It also depends what translation of the Bible you look at.

  115. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    ap·o·pha·tic
    /ˌapəˈfadik/
    Learn to pronounce
    adjectiveTHEOLOGY
    (of knowledge of God) obtained through negation.

    So it appears to be a theology where God is defined by what he is not. Paired with catophatic which is defined by what God is

    I’m guessing it requires a deep dive into the Bible to tabulate this data.

    I consider myself fairly well read and I found myself a little confused by the concept.

    These are high concepts.

    As I said, I was a believer for years and am no longer sure what the faith is about anymore.

    People can be led down all sorts of paths.

    Most of us go simple or go home. And looking at the numbers, the churches are losing people.

  116. Jack: As I said, I was a believer for years and am no longer sure what the faith is about anymore.

    I think this is the curse for us thinkers. We want a sense certainty even though it is does not exist. We cannot even prove our own existence.

  117. Ken F (aka Tweed): I think this is the curse for us thinkers. We want a sense certainty even though it is does not exist. We cannot even prove our own existence.

    The post-Enlightenment mind—and we all have one, by accident of birth—craves facts. Some of today’s religious figures respond with claims of inerrancy and literalism. Our ancient texts were not written or canonized with those things in mind, really.

    Our texts do provide profound meaning, though we might want to admit that they were not written with our minds in mind.

  118. Don Jones: the plain teaching of Scripture.

    Plain Teaching like how the demon locust plague of Revelation is Plainly helicopter gunships packing chemical-weapon “stingers” and piloted by long-haired bearded Hippies?

  119. Don Jones: the plain teaching of Scripture.

    Plain Teaching like how the demon locust plague of Revelation is Plainly helicopter gunships packing chemical-weapon “stingers” and piloted by long-haired bearded Hippies?

    Ken F (aka Tweed): This is where things always go south – thousands of denominations divide over their different interpretations of “the plain teaching of Scripture” on many different issues.

    Even to the point of fighting genocidal wars over jots & tittles.

  120. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Thanks Ken, I couldn’t get it out as succinctly as you did.
    I will say this though (my opinion), PSA (penal substitutionary atonement) teaches human sacrifice, and on that basis alone I cannot sign onto it.

  121. Muff Potter: PSA (penal substitutionary atonement) teaches human sacrifice, and on that basis alone I cannot sign onto it.

    It’s more descriptive of Molech than YHWY. PSA comes up short theologically, logically, biblically, historically, philosophically, and morally. But if one has been taught that PSA is the gospel, it can be very difficult to see it for what it is.

  122. Ken F (aka Tweed): This is where things always go south – thousands of denominations divide over their different interpretations of “the plain teaching of Scripture” on many different issues.

    Back in the day, Jesus’ day, the religious elite stalked Jesus with their “plain teaching of Scripture” questions to trip Him up. Jesus, seeing their hearts, exposed their motivation. Jesus also noted their behavior toward the least of the least, widows & orphans & such.

    The reality show of the faith walk surpasses arguing theology quoting chapter & verse. A person’s actions display faith. Unlike Jesus, we cannot see their heart, but actions speak.

  123. Muff Potter: I will say this though (my opinion), PSA (penal substitutionary atonement) teaches human sacrifice, and on that basis alone I cannot sign onto it.

    The sadism of Calvinism.

    And in our day, wives need to commit and submit to abusive husbands.
    Marital rape is a go.
    Empathy is out.
    Christianity is painful.
    Man up.
    Hunker down.

    Wilson saying husbands are to dominate & penetrate, women are to submit & receive … in the “Catch & Kill” doc series, grizzly old film mogul Harvey Weinstein is caught on tape telling a pretty young model who came in for an interview for her career, “Come on, five minutes, just one thrust and it will be over. [Don’t refuse.] Don’t ruin your friendship with me …”.

    Who gave Wilson, Piper, Driscoll, Calvin a mic?