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“ “Some may say that all the signs were there for a long time … It’s certainly fair to say that there were questionable comments made, worrying behavior and inappropriate social media posts” said Liberty, continuing: “but all the signs were not there until the start of last week.””

It can be argued that this amounts to we saw some smoke, but even as a body with fiduciary responsibilities, we punted (with whatever financial and other perks came with that) on proactive measures of oversight until it reached prairie fire levels, no?

Anna:
I believe this investigation is a smoke screen (i.e, sham) to try and show people how committed the board is to discovering where they went wrong, when the real question should be, ‘when did you know, and why wasn’t anything done’?

This will be the focus of controlling the narrative. The BOT will work to control how they are perceived. They want people to think they were just caught by surprise by all of Falwell’s antics, and were somehow unprepared to deal with the onslaught of them. This is not true. Falwell has left a trail of questionable behavior for YEARS that any armchair detective could look up. They can’t feign innocence, but they will try.

The goal of the ‘independent’ investigation is to clear the board, period. They will take the appropriate amount of slaps on the wrist and move on, just like Cedarville.

Could be, especially if transparency isn’t a part of this: “Liberty University did not immediately respond to Forbes’s questions about the specifics of the investigation or its potential consequences.“ How many times have we seen the owners that who let the failures to go unchecked be allowed to head the investigation?

Also, how often has that process look awfully like damage control towards narrative control, as was said? Of course, the familiar pattern faces the reality of decades with a university with scores of staff, faculty, and students. That combined with the national spotlight evidently sought by the “former president” (as they put it) may lend itself to more sunlight than usual. Either way, people have the opportunity to do the right thing, NDA or no.

I believe both of the Falwells are predators and I believe the pool boy’s and the student’s story over theirs.

Anna: I believe this investigation is a smoke screen (i.e, sham) to try and show people how committed the board is to discovering where they went wrong, when the real question should be, ‘when did you know, and why wasn’t anything done’?

Sadly, I think so, too. I knew Junior would be a bad choice way before he was ever made President. I know a lot of other students and alumni thought so, too. That a board couldn’t see that is pretty ridiculous.

Thank you, Dee, for including the source links in your opening posts.

I know some comments have already made excellent points on your opening post, and that there will be many more equally thoughtful comments.

I was struck by something in the linked AP News article that might be another part of the whitewashing process:

“In Monday’s statement announcing the investigation, Liberty’s board also said it is considering establishing a post aimed at offering spiritual guidance for university leaders to ensure they “live out the Christian walk expected of each and every one of us at Liberty.”

As I am less familiar with some of the details of Christian universities, perhaps someone might have ideas on whether the post the board is considering establishing A) will actually happen, and / or B) is (somehow) a “carrot”, and / or C) might be used to cover-up more abuses, and / or D) will subtly teach university leaders how to keep their abuses under the radar.

Sarah: Seeing as Jr was installed the day after his father’s death I’m wondering how much input the board had into the decision of jr as prez

My dad and I had a conversation about that and thought that it could be part of Falwell Sr’s contract that Junior become president after him. When I was a student, Senior was very adamant that Jonathan would pastor Thomas Road and Junior would take over the school. Jonathan seemed like a decent guy, but Junior always came across as an immature party boy, despite his education.

ishy: However, in the way the school should be set up, the board would still probably have the power to remove him even if he was installed some other way. Maybe some of our legal experts can weigh in on that.

From their recent comments, it sounded like they had no intention of ever removing him. If the investigation is truly independent, I wonder if it will reveal favors to the board or other things that kept the board from doing their jobs properly.

I’m fairly certain there would have been a way to remove him IF the board wanted to do it. I don’t think you can lock up a charitable institution such that people can’t be removed from their positions.

That said, your second paragraph gets to the nut of the matter. Will the board hire someone independent enough to do the deep dive that is necessary? Because I’m thinking that there’s so much dirt and that board is nowhere near “independent” to do that kind of self-examination.

Liberty U has a not inconsiderable endowment (listed by Google as $1.59 billion). It’s nowhere near Stanford ($27 bn) or my alma mater ($30 bn), but for a private religious university, it is nothing to sneeze at. Texas Christian University’s endowment is $1.71 bn; Southern Methodist is at $1.66 bn and Baylor U is $1.3 bn. Notre Dame tops the list of heavily endowed religious universities at $8.5 bn.

Knowing that, I suspect the board was willing to look the other way because Jr was a really good fundraiser. And, really, that’s always been my understanding of a university president. Not that they are a figurehead, but that they’re hired to not just run the university but to be the face of the university to raise money so the university continues to exist. Which is probably why Master’s University has not really wanted to replace John MacArthur as the face of Master’s because his presence gets people to give money.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts.

Anna,

Exactly..

From Dee’s original post:
Becki Falwell accused of predatory behavior
It looks like LU is a “equal opportunity to ABUSE institution ”!

“I am concerned that the board may be made up of yes men”

Junior would not have survived as long as he did, given his poor Christian character, if he was not surrounded by trustees who were acquiescent to the bad boy. They share responsibility for this scandal and should leave LU in the hands of others who will lift up the name of Christ above the next LU President.

Presumably the report to be presented to the Board by the investigators the Board has retained will be the property of the Board.

Or perhaps they have pledged to promptly release the report, unredacted, regardless of what it discloses?

researcher: in the linked AP News article …

“In Monday’s statement announcing the investigation, Liberty’s board also said it is considering establishing a post aimed at offering spiritual guidance for university leaders to ensure they “live out the Christian walk expected of each and every one of us at Liberty.”

If I were the parent of an LU student or a donor to the university, I would be wondering “Uhhhh, I assumed LU leaders were already living out the Christian walk, or wouldn’t have been appointed in any leadership role at the university.” Making a big deal about putting a “spiritual coach” on staff might backfire on them … these folks are supposed to be spiritual already!

Max: Junior would not have survived as long as he did, given his poor Christian character, if he was not surrounded by trustees who were acquiescent to the bad boy.

That and the old timid standby refrain / rationale for not doing anything:

“…Can’t come down too hard on Junior, cuz’… I’m a sinner too…”

Muff Potter: “…Can’t come down too hard on Junior, cuz’… I’m a sinner too…”

“And Junior cuts me in on some of the take.”

Muff Potter: “…Can’t come down too hard on Junior, cuz’… I’m a sinner too…”

Sometimes I wonder how that would fly at a secular criminal trial.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Becki Falwell accused of predatory behavior
COUGAR ATTACK!

Maybe Paige Patterson should hang her on one of his walls???

ishy,

“From their recent comments, it sounded like they had no intention of ever removing him. If the investigation is truly independent, I wonder if it will reveal favors to the board or other things that kept the board from doing their jobs properly.”
+++++++++++++

…like, financial rewards / bonuses if they don’t interfere with Jerry Falwell Jr.’s position as president of the university.

all couched in spiritual christiany language, like “honor”, “respect”, “touch not God’s anointed”…

why should any on the Board keep their jobs?

do any of them have the character and integrity to recognize their abysmal failures that will have enormous & far-reaching consequences, and to forfeit their positions with deep apologies?

ha… i really don’t think so.

the reason i really don’t think so is that i have never seen a christian leader not look our for himself and herself above all else. i have never seen a christian leader do what is right when it will cost them.

(beyond making a show of a silly and trivial thing that could be construed as a modicum of personal cost, and using it for PR and burnishing a heroic image for themselves.)

Yes!

This is a powerful article from a former student of LU.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/26/opinion/jerry-falwell-liberty.html

Max: Ability to quote Bible verses? Nah, the devil does that.

Y’know what Max?

I continue to be amazed by how people both inside and outside of the Church forget Satan quoted Bible verses.

Perhaps if people remembered that ANYONE can (mis)quote Bible verses, there would be fewer wolves in the Church.

Max: Churchgoers need to pray for a new measure of discernment. The enemy of the Cross is working overtime these days.

Amen to that!

Headless Unicorn Guy: “And Junior cuts me in on some of the take.”

Makes me think that Liberty University is run just like a Scorsese mob flick.

Max: Ability to quote Bible verses? Nah, the devil does that.

Wondering Eagle’s regular troll quotes barrages of Verses on full-auto like a Calvary Chapelite’s “Bible Bullets”.

And in Volume 12 of that dumpster fire called Left Behind, Jenkins was apparently so terrified of “putting words in Jesus’ mouth” that most ALL Christ’s dialogue is just reciting Bible passages. Eru Iluvatar Himself as MP3 playback of King Jimmy Chapters-and-Verses. You’d think Someone who sang the Cosmos into existence would be more original/creative than that.

This reminds me of a harsh rebuke leveled at the first-century pharisees by some Carpenter from Nazareth:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.”

As a recipient of one of their Certificates in Paralegal Studies, I for one, am utterly ashamed of Liberty and how they let things ever get to this point! How do they ever recover from this? They are nothing more than a laughingstock and a punchline! Good riddance, Junior…and take your predator wife with you!

Headless Unicorn Guy: so terrified of “putting words in Jesus’ mouth”

This is a fascinating issue, IMO.

Perhaps he was simply reluctant to offend the readership. But one can imagine concern about the Rev 22 warnings about adding or subtracting words from “this book”. Or Paul’s warnings about preaching “another Gospel”.

But it seems to me that even if one says the words of the text verbatim, one can in effect “add or subtract” or communicate a different message ( angelion ) than what the texts’ authors intended if one does not accurately perceive the meaning of the verbatim words that one exposits. And I think that accuracy is not always easy to attain.

This, IMO, calls for great humility in one’s approach to the texts. And that, of course, conflicts with another of Paul’s writings, in which he urges his readers to, when they speak, “speak as though speaking the very words of God.” And it conflicts with (what I interpret to be) many present-day preachers’ desire to imitate the authority which which Jesus taught.

My present state of mind is that I am much more comfortable with teaching that explicitly qualifies itself with hedges such as “it seems to me that …” as opposed to “thus says the LORD”, in its exposition and interpretation of the text. I welcome correction and rebuke when I fail to meet this “standard” in my own occasional textual meditations.

Muff Potter: Makes me think that Liberty University is run just like a Scorsese mob flick.

This would make a fantastic novel. I am so tempted…

Headless Unicorn Guy: “discernment” does NOT mean Seeing DEMONS in every closet and smelling out Satan’s WITCHES and LIBRULS under every bed

Nah, just those closets and beds in your vicinity.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

Yes, I’m eagerly waiting for spectral evidence to be restored to its rightful place in the law. We’ve really missed out since it fell into disfavor in 1692.

/s

Samuel Conner,

From my perspective, I understand your comment in the sense of holding the tension between one black-and-white perspective and another black-and-white perspective.

And even as I write those words, there are black-and-white thinkers in either camp who would falsely claim you are copping out (and I do NOT think you are copping out) when you wrote:

My present state of mind is that I am much more comfortable with teaching that explicitly qualifies itself with hedges such as “it seems to me that …” as opposed to “thus says the LORD”, in its exposition and interpretation of the text. I welcome correction and rebuke when I fail to meet this “standard” in my own occasional textual meditations.

researcher,

Thanks.

I have a vivid memory of an enthusaistic and earnest, and considerably younger than me, YE enthusist who rebuked me for not having the “courage of conviction.”

I replied that he was asking me to courageously affirm things that I was pretty confident were not true.

There is an approach to interpretation and exposition that holds that once one has made one’s best effort to understand a text, one is conscience-bound to disregard one’s fallibility and to assume that the Holy Spirit has rightly guided one to the meaning, and then to fiercely affirm one’s conclusions as if they were directly revealed by God.

That is a good recipe for the theological chaos that we have today. The Holy Spirit does not seem to lead everyone to the same conclusions. Which raises the possibility that some of these conclusions were not illuminated by the Spirit. My conclusions are inevitably vulnerable to this assessment.

Amusingly, “humility” is not explicitly stated to be one of the “fruits of the Spirit”, though it is related to some of them, such as “patience,” “gentleness” and “self-control.” And it is one of the things that “are good, and that YHWH requires” of us, along with “justice” and “mercy.”

Friend,

a very good point. Church, like marriage, can be an opportunity to grow in grace toward one another.

researcher: What unisex, one-size-fits all article of clothing properly fits EVERYONE – man, woman, boy, girl?

Birthday suit?

researcher,

Yes. That article does make one shake one’s head.

I started to type some thoughts into the Comments section at that item, but decided better, am less confident how theologically robust readers at Roys’ blog are and whether my observations might injure some.

But suffice it to say here that “the Gospel”, whatever one understands that to be, is not well served by congregations that function as menaces to public health.

Samuel Conner: I replied that he was asking me to courageously affirm things that I was pretty confident were not true.

“The whole purpose of argument is to change the nature of truth…”
— attributed to the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood —

Friend: The article says this:

Meanwhile, MacArthur told his congregation on Sunday, “There is no pandemic,” but instead called news of the pandemic a “deception” by “the arch-deceiver Satan himself.”

Look at the bright side, at least he’s not blaming the Jooz.

Friend,

MacArthur’s remarks are, IMO, a good example of a significant misapplication of NT texts.

Writing in the mid-1st century, Paul saw the influence of an invisible arch-adversary throughout the Roman world. It was a culture founded on idolatry; idolatry was woven throughout social relations (so much so that Jews and then also Christians, who refused to participate in the public festivals, were regarded to be antisocial creatures). The supreme political leaders were regarded in their life-times to be quasi-deities, and were often deified after their passing. That world was substantially, though imperfectly, overthrown in the 4th Century with the tolerance and later endorsement of organized Christianity by the Emperor.

Is “the power of the prince of the air” a timeless truth? I doubt it. Paul was describing the world in which he lived and ministered, I think.

It strikes me (trying to qualify my statement here to comport with the humility I think one ought to have when making such assertions) as a significant mis-application of Paul’s words to see the current situation as resembling the one he faced. Christendom is dead, but is still culturally quite powerful.

And it’s quite odd that Paul could write the kinds of things he did in Romans 13, about submission to God-appointed political authorities, if JM’s view of the pervasive power of the adversary is accurate. It’s a head-scratcher; surely our present system is not more influenced by Satan than the 1st-century Roman Empire was.

As you say, JM’s language ends debate. One hopes the debate will be re-opened if there is a CV outbreak among the members of that congregation.

Samuel Conner: MacArthur’s remarks are, IMO, a good example of a significant misapplication of NT texts.

New Calvinists are famous for that!

Samuel Conner,

This is so irresponsible…. guess what, cancer does not “kill” most people… it is the complications that metastatic cancer brings to the person that kills them… sigh….

researcher: And I never thought of an answer to the riddle being someone’s birthday suit.

Birthday is not a correct answer ……. mine is at least two sizes too big!

Samuel Conner: As you say, JM’s language ends debate. One hopes the debate will be re-opened if there is a CV outbreak among the members of that congregation.

With sadness, I would add the police to those who believe the pandemic is real. Here are 2020 statistics from the Officer Down Memorial Page (emphasis mine):

Total Line of Duty Deaths: 182
9/11 related cancer 3
Aircraft accident 1
Automobile crash 15
COVID19 101
Drowned 3
Duty related illness 2
Gunfire 31
Gunfire (Inadvertent) 4
Heart attack 5
Motorcycle crash 2
Struck by vehicle 6
Vehicle pursuit 2
Vehicular assault 7

Source: https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020

Another site, for the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, says that seven California police officers have died of covid-19.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

Should read “Birthday suit”

Other than the physically newborn baby, does ANYONE fit in their actual physical birthday suit? 🙂

Linn,

The New Calvinists call that “sin-leveling” 🙂

researcher: Other than the physically newborn baby, does ANYONE fit in their actual physical birthday suit?

Or wedding day suit for that matter! My wife and I celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary last Sunday. The 50-year “before and after” photos our daughter assembled for the party were quite striking.

Brian: They sound like swingers.

Yes, although some of the swingees appear reluctant to have been swung.

Max: My wife and I celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary last Sunday.

Congratulations, Max! Hope you have many more together.

Max: My wife and I celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary last Sunday.

Happiest of anniversaries to you both!

Max,

That is a good description… these “preachers” are a pandemic on anyone that does not think and read the Bible fior themselves!

John MacArthur needs to get in touch with fellow evangelist Kenneth Copeland about this non pandemic mess. I saw Copeland blow the virus away just a couple of months ago. While he and Copeland confer about this non existent fake news pandemic he can maybe join in with Copeland and other esteemed men and women of god as one of Trumps spiritual advisors. I think he would fit right in. I heard there is an opening now since he lost one of his most important advisors just a few days ago. Poor guy just didn’t have time for any extra work.

researcher,

Samuel Conner: “The Holy Spirit does not seem to lead everyone to the same conclusions. Which raises the possibility that some of these conclusions were not illuminated by the Spirit. My conclusions are inevitably vulnerable to this assessment.”
—–
Friend: “Or maybe there’s a more tender explanation, that the Holy Spirit wants people to talk about their different conclusions.”
——–
researcher: “Or perhaps both of these combined somehow….

Not everyone learns at the same pace or in the same way.

There is no “formula”, no matter what many of the “celebrity pastors” “preach” and / or “teach”.
++++++++++++++++++
.
.
i think faith and spirituality are like cooking. there’s no one right way to cook anything.

there are some good objectives – like, meat that is tender, dough that is not tough, yeast bread that has risen, veggies that are al dente, flavors that pop as opposed to disappearing…

but there are many ways to accomplish these things.

and there are many objectives that are entirely subjective:

salty, sweet, sour, bitter, crispy, crunchy, soft, chewy, hot, warm, cold, room temperature, melted, solid, the spectrum of raw-to-well done, spicy, citrusy, herb-y, garlic and onion, slow, quick, detailed, easy, vegetarian, vegan, pescatarian,…

the point is to nourish ourselves and others so we have strength for today and the future, and in a way that is respectful of living things & resources.

if we can do so in a way that is beautiful and brings pleasure (for which there isn’t a right or wrong), that’s a bonus.

I’m totally done with the the christian institution.

no matter where i turn, groups of gravely serious people always tell me i’m wrong for liking pancakes raw in the middle. others tell me i’m wrong for liking pretzels and milk. others tell me i’m wrong for having peanut butter with my hot cereal. others tell me i’m wrong for roasting my pork loin at a high temperature. others tell me i’m wrong for stuffing a turkey with lemons and adding hard cider to the gravy.

i’m wrong no matter where i take a step. hell, all i have to do is just stand there and i’m still wrong. christians are always there to tell me (sweetly or not) that i’m so wrong that i’m stupid, dangerous, and disgusting.

(a little hyperbole, but not much)

i call that not a good use of my precious time on earth.

elastigirl: no matter where i turn, groups of gravely serious people always tell me i’m wrong for liking pancakes raw in the middle. others tell me i’m wrong for liking pretzels and milk. others tell me i’m wrong for having peanut butter with my hot cereal. others tell me i’m wrong for roasting my pork loin at a high temperature. others tell me i’m wrong for stuffing a turkey with lemons and adding hard cider to the gravy.

All of that sounds awesome. I’m fond of kielbasa and Log Cabin Syrup.

*Ahem.* Anybody else have a… confession?

Max,

Max, Grandma’s other comment was my mom’s book had so much violence in it. It’s one of our family stories that will live forever.

researcher,

Congratulations on your 50th! May God give you many more years of happiness together!

Julie,

I think maybe you were intending to reply to Max?

elastigirl,

I too am with ya’ on this one elastigirl.
Why do some people (and not just fundagelicals) always demand uniformity for everything?
It’s gotta’ be part of the human parade, just like a float that looks like it was made with a giant cookie cutter.

Max: My wife and I celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary last Sunday.

I hope it feels more like 5 than 50.

Max,

Friend,

researcher,
++++++++++++++++++

to be clear, (and you probably already know this, but my brain is too overworked* to pick up on it), no one tells me i’m wrong to like those foods and cook that way (well, except my kids, with the pancakes).

but it’s my metaphor for what christian culture has become.

(which might as well be christianity as a whole. christianity is what people make of it, and is wholly distinct from jesus christ).
.
.
(*i’m inventing a new on-line ‘wheel’, so to speak, in my self-employment… and taking college classes, too — pursuing the major/degree i should have opted for many years ago, instead of the one i chose at the time. never too late. today’s always the first day of the rest of my life.)

Muff Potter,

One word: Pride

elastigirl: groups of gravely serious people always tell me i’m wrong for liking pancakes raw in the middle.

You would not have this pancake problem if you would be honest with your elders like this woman from TGC’s most recent post:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/honest-with-elders/
Who thinks this way?

researcher: I would roast entire heads (some people call them bulbs) of garlic, then peel and eat all the cloves in the garlic bulb at once

supposedly common in Korea! Keeps the vampires away I guess (or maybe mosquitos??).

researcher: I would roast entire heads (some people call them bulbs) of garlic, then peel and eat all the cloves in the garlic bulb at once

I had a roomate who used to bake them and then spread the soft, baked cloves on bread. It was delicious!

Friend,

“I’m fond of kielbasa and Log Cabin Syrup.

*Ahem.* Anybody else have a… confession?”
+++++++++++++++++

**for emergency purposes only**

you get a little dish. get a little butter from the butter dish, add some sugar, a little flour, & quickly mash it together with a fork (before anyone notices what you’re doing). and then pretend you’re eating something else.

but i have to ask a very important question: would real maple syrup work if it was the same price as log cabin?

elastigirl: would real maple syrup work if it was the same price as log cabin?

I think that real grade B maple syrup and high-quality polska kielbasa would be excellent.

However, it would not delight my Rust Belt soul. We grew up on cheap food, including whatever the mill workers’ kin introduced from the old country.

Wonder bread and braunschweiger.

Max: Honestly, does anyone want to be honest with a 20-30 year old YRR pastor and his band of “elders” of same age?

That’s the problem with you and me – we are too old to get it.

Ken F (aka Tweed): That’s the problem with you and me – we are too old to get it.

To paraphrase a famous cult leader with a funny little mustache:
“You are Passing Away, but they will remain MINE.”

Friend,

ok, so sort of like how kraft macaroni and cheese in the blue box is the bees the knees and home-made macaroni & cheese with aged cheddar is an utter disappointment?

ishy: Peanut butter and pickle sandwiches.

We’re you pregnant at the time?

Reminds me of this anecdote from “Nutsy Nancy”, resident goofball of the Cal Poly Gang (the groupI went through college with and hung out with for about 10 years afterwards):

When she was pregnant with her first, “I decided to try it. So I took a dill pickle, put a scoop of strawberry ice cream on top, and ate it.” (long pause…) “I THOUGHT I WAS GONNA DIE! IT WAS AWFUL!”

Bill: John MacArthur needs to get in touch with fellow evangelist Kenneth Copeland about this non pandemic mess.

In comparison with Copeland, JMac is just another beggar dressed in rags. Why would The Richest Televangelist in the World want anything to do with him?

Headless Unicorn Guy: We’re you pregnant at the time?

I started eating them when I was 5-6, so I think that would be a medical miracle! My grandmother was fond of them.

True story: When I was a camp counselor, we had fairly portioned meals, but there was always bread, peanut butter, and a bowl of hamburger pickles at the condiment table during meals. So I introduced my campers to PB&P pickles. They were grossed out at first but slowly started trying it. A few weeks later, they had to rescind peanut butter and bread privileges because the whole camp was eating them.

elastigirl: ‘cuz you haven’t had problems til you’ve had pancake problems.

Slice eating apple into oil you’re warming up (next time, I’ll open canned apricots)
What flour / flours you want
An egg or so
Splashes of milk
A few drops water
Doesn’t matter if you don’t mix it much
Put over the other, either all at once or save half for next “helping”
Cook it anyhow you want
When (rather than if) it breaks up it becomes Pancake Pudding Pie
Splash or drip lime (or lemon) juice on
Drizzle maple syrup with restraint

Bachelor Lifestyle Special

elastigirl: do you have Bragg’s apple cider vinegar where you are? full of healthy bacteria and other nutritional things.

Yep. I have some Bragg’s apple cider vinegar in my cupboard (as well as their liquid soy, aka liquid aminos, which, imho, tastes way better than soy sauce).

I also have another brand of apple cider vinegar with all the same health benefits as Bragg’s. And I used to have easy access to another brand of apple cider vinegar with all the same health benefits as Bragg’s, but it was slightly sweeter (less vinegary?) in taste, if that makes any sense.

dandelion tea steeped with fresh ginger & tumeric, and elderberry extract.

While I understand many of the potential health benefits of each thing you mentioned, I rarely used (or use) them in the “normal” way.

For their bitter taste:

I used to drink roasted dandelion root tea, chew on dried (raw, not roasted) dandelion root, or chew on dried roasted dandelion root. And many years ago, I had access to fresh dandelion leaves.

I don’t pick fresh dandelion (root or leaf) because everything close by to me has either been sprayed with herbicides (or sprayed by dogs 🙂 ), or has been exposed to vehicle exhaust.

I add ground turmeric to some of my food, or take a rounded measuring teaspoonful of ground turmeric and hold it on my tongue a short while before swallowing it.

I don’t know if you have Angostura bitters where you live, but I used to shake (maybe 1/4 – 1/2 teaspoon) of it directly onto my tongue.

Angostura bitters is frequently used in aperitifs, but I liked the bitterness provided by the gentian it contains.

For other reasons:

I used to eat chunks of raw ginger root, but the pandemic has limited my access to it. And I used to eat chunks of dried ginger root, but the price has become too cost prohibitive for me.

I DO, however, eat a ton of dried ground ginger. 🙂

I used to have easy (and relatively inexpensive) access to dried elderberries. I used to chew on them, although, like blueberries, they have a tendency to (temporarily) stain teeth and tongue.

Friend: *Ahem.* Anybody else have a… confession?

Jasmine rice and Vietnamese fish sauce.

Max: If I were the parent of an LU student or a donor to the university, I would be wondering “Uhhhh, I assumed LU leaders were already living out the Christian walk, or wouldn’t have been appointed in any leadership role at the university.” Making a big deal about putting a “spiritual coach” on staff might backfire on them … these folks are supposed to be spiritual already!

Exactly. This is just window dressing. If they can’t find people of character to take these positions maybe it’s time to fold up.

Ken F (aka Tweed): You would not have this pancake problem if you would be honest with your elders like this woman from TGC’s most recent post:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/honest-with-elders/
Who thinks this way?

That was painful to read. Is that what Stockholm Syndrome sounds like? Yuck. Lady, go out and find the places and the friends that work for you and your boys! Use your own brains! Develop your own observational skills!

Max: “Above reproach” alone would be a tough hurdle for some of these folks … heck, Junior himself failed that one years ago!

Weird, isn’t it? Fundagelicals reject education and training because it’s worldly and corrupting. Then they bring a boatload* of personal corruption. So the organization lacks both skills and integrity in its leaders.

*Or a yachtload.

Max,

Family members of big “evangelisers”, who insist on staying on boards like this, see words as shallow, don’t see any good in other individuals, and are convinced their own bad attitude won’t be seen by anyone and / or decide to defiantly flaunt it out of superiority. This IS Scofieldism in action and practice. It is their Manifest Destiny to tyrannise humanity totally, so that then others shall copy them.

ishy,

Yup!! And the then complain like crazy about how much they are persecuted… and how the media treats them

Friend: the organization lacks both skills and integrity in its leaders

Unfortunately, big-buck donations and power connections offset skills and integrity in the trustee ranks at many “Christian” colleges … a trustee strategy that most of these institutions employ. It’s more important to appoint trustees who bring money and/or celebrity to the table than ability and character. Being a yes-man pal with the President is a plus!

Steve240,

Well! Thanks for posting the link. Excerpts:

How Jerry Falwell Jr. mixed his personal finances with his university’s

And before becoming school president, Falwell set up two companies that enabled him to cut property deals with one of the many nonprofit entities affiliated with the university, Reuters found. In each of the deals, Falwell played multiple roles with potentially conflicting interests: He was an officer of the university, a board member for the nonprofit selling the land, and a private developer who could profit from the transactions.

researcher,

More gas being poured on the floating, burning dumpster……

Jeffrey Chalmers: This is clear a “no-no” at my institution

Maybe you just aren’t smart enough to buy into a strip mall off campus and use college money to build a pedestrian tunnel to your strip mall.

And in 2012, in a project Falwell launched as Liberty’s president, the university spent more than $2 million to build a tunnel that links the campus to another shopping plaza near campus. Falwell is a part owner of that shopping plaza.

researcher: you guys are liars,” he said, … “Trust me,” Falwell said during the call, “you do not want to mess with me, OK?”

I think I get it now, Scofieldists – oops I mean Christians – are people to not “mess” with, they have predefined us as liars, and “trust” has a new meaning to replace the old one. Am I catching up with the “new abnormal” fast enough?

Friend: in 2012, in a project Falwell launched as Liberty’s president, the university spent more than $2 million to build a tunnel that links the campus to another shopping plaza near campus. Falwell is a part owner of that shopping plaza.

And the LU trustees didn’t have a problem with this?! Good Lord!! There needs to be a day of reckoning with these leaders.

researcher: “I welcome it because it will prove that all you guys are liars,” he said, referring to members of the media. “You got nothing.”

This sentence tells me he’s a liar, because there’s a lot of alumni who want this investigation to be thorough and honest, including me. This isn’t just about “the media” or “liberals”. This is about the rightful education of students.

Steve240,

Thanks for the link… 🙂

Friend: Point of information: this was six (6) years before the death of Falwell Sr. They were building a dynasty.

Wasn’t Liberty Univesity more like the Falwell family business?

Steve240: Wasn’t Liberty Univesity more like the Falwell family business?

Falwell Sr definitely had a lot of faults, but he really cared about students. He could remember the names and other information of everyone he met and he spent a lot of time on campus just talking to students. He always called me by name and asked me how my missions classes were going. He did also run up on the sidewalk in his SUV behind me one time and yelled for me to get out of the way. That was one of his favorite pranks on students.

One of the first thing Junior did was get rid of all the scholarships Senior had put in place for students to attend. That’s why Jerry “made the school so much money” as he put it. A lot of the financial decisions were not for the benefit of students, even though the university existed to instruct students (supposedly). I do think the online university was a good move, but most of the other things Junior did seemed to have ulterior motives that benefited him or his family more than students.

Steve240: So maybe it was Jr. that made Liberty into a family business? Sr. had the students interests at heart.

I definitely think that’s true for intent. I have heard that some of this started by Junior while he was LU’s lawyer, before Senior’s death, but I didn’t see these massive real estate deals and fancy buildings while I was there, except for the coliseum. The campus was relatively austere and a lot of money went out to students for scholarships.

If I compare that to Thomas White’s video on the other post about Cedarville, it definitely seems like turning these Christian schools into financial boons was something that wasn’t a thing until later.

Friend: New story from The Hill. Thoughts?

While I don’t have the knowledge and experience with LU that ishy does, I wondered while reading the article if LU was making some kind of attempt at image management….

ishy: there’s a lot of alumni who want this investigation to be thorough and honest, including me

Then the LU alumni association needs to demand a true “independent” investigation. If LU is paying for it, it’s not really an absolute unconstrained look at the misbehaving of Falwell and the trustees, IMO. Too bad there’s not an outside source that can step in to assess bad-boy leaders on Christian campuses, with a funding source not attached to the investigated party to ensure an actual independent investigation.

Friend: It’s hard to know if this is image management, or Junior trying to intimidate or influence, or something else.

Or maybe it’s some combination of all the options?

researcher,

What I meant to say is, you’re right on. The board is also corrupt and has to go.

Friend,

As an Ivy alum I have to note that Harvard’s endowment is about 42 billion. My own alma mater, Dartmouth, has a “mere” 6 billion. I like my college, but for me, they’re dead last on the list of non profit causes that might get my money.

I suspect Junior might be trying to get Trey into the President position so he can continue to shadow lord. But that statement makes it pretty clear everybody wants the Falwells out. I wouldn’t be too surprised if Jonathan or one of his kids was put in place, but they really just need to find someone outside of all of it.

In the original article, it sounded to me like Junior was making threats if things didn’t go his way. If this investigation does find things, I wonder if it will get turned over to the VA attorney general. I don’t think Junior can mess with him and win if he did something very wrong.

Don Ho: they’ve hired a serious independent firm

Again, my concern is “they’ve hired.” While the firm may be “serious”, it cannot truly be “independent” with funding for its investigation coming from the party they are investigating. It should be clear by now that some on the Board share responsibility for Falwell’s longtime uncorrected string of transgressions. It’s too bad that an unconstrained look at this mess can’t be performed without an LU tether. I don’t think the LU family, nor the church at large, will be completely satisfied with such report.

ishy: And I know their alumni donations are down by the increasingly desperate letters and postcards asking for money

Apologies again for the dumb mixup about endowment amounts. According to Liberty, it is Liberty that has a $1.6 billion endowment. Asking for money right now strikes me as a bit crass. Please note Don Ho’s correction that the Harvard endowment is about $42 billion. (The Harvard Crimson cites $40.9 as of 2019.)

Liberty compared its endowment with those of the Ivies in Feb 2020:

Liberty’s endowment remains in nation’s Top 100, outpacing Ivy League schools and recording fourth-fastest growth

“Our endowment increased in value by 10.8% in one year — more than triple the 3.4% average change in market value of the other top 10 largest endowment-ranked schools in the country,” said Liberty President Jerry Falwell. “That list includes Stanford, MIT, Notre Dame, University of Michigan, University of Texas, Texas A&M, and the Ivy League’s Penn, Yale, Harvard and Princeton. This means that the national-level acumen of our LU leadership and investment partners is now considered ‘business as usual!’” …

https://www.liberty.edu/news/2020/02/03/libertys-endowment-remains-in-nations-top-100-outpacing-ivy-league-schools-and-recording-fourth-fastest-growth/

The point of comparison is the pace of growth, not the size of the endowment.

Meanwhile, according to Harvard, they spent $1.9 billion of their own endowment on Harvard in 2019. Source is Harvard dot edu, “About” menu and “Endowment.”

So. Liberty brags about having a $1.6 billion endowment, while Harvard spends $1.9 billion of its endowment. But they’re both in the top 100!

Friend: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/04/liberty-university-investigates-jerry-falwell-jrs-personal-finances.html

“He was an officer of the university, a board member for the nonprofit selling the land, and a private developer who could profit from the transactions … Liberty employed a private firm – JF Management – formed by Jerry “Trey” Falwell III, Falwell’s elder son, to manage university properties … Trey Falwell also serves as a Liberty vice president … governance specialists say such deals can raise concern about conflicts of interest or potential breaches of fiduciary duty …” etc. etc.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

Steve240: Just don’t forget that Falwell Jr. is a lawyer and thus may have been “legal” but still quite questionable.

I suspect that while, being a real estate lawyer, he knows a lot about real estate law, but he might not know all he thinks he does about nonprofit law particularly related to a university. I don’t have law knowledge, but I’ve worked in a nonprofit for a number of years and know there’s a lot of stuff that applies to nonprofits that don’t apply elsewhere.

Having met Junior, I also think he’s arrogant enough to think he can get away with anything and punish anyone who dares question him. So, yeah, I have thought that maybe he got by on the letter of the law, but I doubt it. And just because he tried to do things properly doesn’t mean those under him, or his son, have done so in his name and under his orders.

ishy: Having met Junior, I also think he’s arrogant enough to think he can get away with anything and punish anyone who dares question him.

“He also warned Reuters not to question his two adult sons, both of whom still have jobs at Liberty. “Trust me,” Falwell said during the call, “you do not want to mess with me, OK?””

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/04/liberty-university-investigates-jerry-falwell-jrs-personal-finances.html

Friend: we did not parlay any of that into a business empire

Perhaps it’s just my naivety, but I wouldn’t think leading a Christian institution, while also building a business empire, is the right thing to do … particularly if the former provided connections to achieve the latter. Reckon how many LU trustees were involved with Junior’s business ventures?

Friend,

Maybe Jerry Jr is trying to recreate the Merry Garden in a different way? I just read all these things and I get angry for the way in which he has squandered other peoples’ money on himself. I was a self-supporting missionary for about 15 years, and I remember my elderly supporters who would send in $10 out of meager monthly Social Security check. I always told them that if they couldn’t, not to worry about it (they always kept me well-fed on homemade pie when I was home), but they were my most faithful donors. I find guys like JF Jr. appalling!

Friend: It’s fine for Christians to have secular business interests. The problem is conflict of interest, and potentially the nature of the business.

Agreed. My point was Junior had enough to do (if he did it right) as full-time President of a Christian college. I am a Christian and had a secular consulting business, but it didn’t conflict with my personal ministry to others (I did that freely and not for profit).

ishy: I suspect that while, being a real estate lawyer, he knows a lot about real estate law, but he might not know all he thinks he does about nonprofit law particularly related to a university. I don’t have law knowledge, but I’ve worked in a nonprofit for a number of years and know there’s a lot of stuff that applies to nonprofits that don’t apply elsewhere.
Having met Junior, I also think he’s arrogant enough to think he can get away with anything and punish anyone who dares question him. So, yeah, I have thought that maybe he got by on the letter of the law, but I doubt it. And just because he tried to do things properly doesn’t mean those under him, or his son, have done so in his name and under his orders.

Good points.

Even in most larger corporations they talk about conflicts of interest and to not have them. It looks like the Falwells sadly had plenty of them. Again they thought Liberty was a family business.

I am sure Falwell is so full of himself to think he won’t get caught. If Falwell had any sense he would have acted much differently after unzipped pants picture became public. This would have included acting much more remorseful vs. saying he would try and be a good boy.

ishy: Having met Junior, I also think he’s arrogant enough to think he can get away with anything and punish anyone who dares question him.

“I have the Right to do Anything to Anyone.”
— Caligula

Don Ho: Looks like they’ve hired a serious independent firm for the investigation.

Who’s signing the “serious independent firm”s paychecks?
We’ve seen this over and over with “serious independent investigations” of rich and crooked ministries.
MONEY TALKS. Lather, Rinse, Repeat, Lather, Rinse, Repest, Lather, Rinse, Repeat…

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/09/a-culture-of-fear-liberty-u-trustees-under-fire-for-ignoring-complaints-about-falwell-jrs-campus-carousing/?fbclid=IwAR2r8LxHqN7Lp3z6FtabnD9V-E8bJDrJITI_5Py1KY5daaWwNpQ7pim-JBM

Friend: As I recall, Michael Cohen allegedly helped Junior to make risqué photos of his wife disappear.

That’s what a Fixer does.

Steve240: It was almost as if Falwell thought he was invincible or maybe wanted to get fired or perhaps enjoyed pushing the envelope.

I have the impression that there is growing evidence that “power is bad for you.” (of course, powerlessness can have bad consequences, too).

Here’s an older but still relatively recent item:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/power-causes-brain-damage/528711/

a slightly less old item, in a publication not by nature inclined to be skeptical of “power” or “scale”:

https://hbr.org/2018/02/power-can-corrupt-leaders-compassion-can-save-them

Examples in popular and research literature could be multipled.

—

I’ve come to the view that “scale” is dangerous. It’s better for society as a whole and for the people in individual enterprises of every kind, both at “low” and “high” positions within them, for there to be large numbers of small enterprises rather than very few very large enterprises.

This intuition, that high exaltation above one’s peers is bad for you, is ancient; one finds it in the OT, for example. “Pride goeth before a fall”, or “Let me not be poor, lest I steal and dishonor Your Name, and let me not be rich, lest I grow proud and forget You.” It can happen to the best of people; King David’s life-changing stumble into egregious betrayal, that brought trouble on his house to the end of his days, comes to mind.

Max: although, I think there might have been a touch of corruption in his life before he took the helm at LU.

I see two broad categories that Falwell Senior is guilty of:

– Character unbecoming of a Christian college president that he became more blatant about. It is doubtful Falwell Jr. Ever had any interest in following Christ like his father seemed to. It was more a way to make money.

– Conflict of interest financially while being president of a nonprofit institution Including nepotism with Falwell’s family being on Liberty University’s payroll. Who know how much he and his family made due to this and doubt we ever will.

Steve240: It was almost as if Falwell thought he was invincible or maybe wanted to get fired or perhaps enjoyed pushing the envelope.

“ALMOST”?
In a lot of criminal cases, the sheer Thrill of pushing the envelope is what blows everything sky-high. “Almost getting caught” while Getting Away With It over and over again is Quite the Thrill, and you KNOW you’ll NEVER blow your next Saving Throw.