For My Friends in the UK: When Is Gossip Really Just a Gag Order Designed to Protect Church Leaders?



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I was asked to write a post about gossip by some friends in the UK. It appears that our authoritative American brethren have exported their self-protective, pastor-centric harshness to the UK. Apparently, they rail against *gossip,* especially *gossip*  that makes those in magisterial positions feel a bit threatened. But is it really gossip or something else entirely?

I wrote this post in 2014. I have updated a few broken links. Hopefully this gets the discussion underway.


The Puritan’s idea of hell is a place where everybody has to mind his own businessWendell Phillips

George Orwell got it right in Nineteen Eighty Four. Words can be manipulated to mean whatever we want them to mean. Take a look at a few examples from the book.

As the government, the Party controls the population with four ministries:

  1. the Ministry of Peace (Minipax), which deals with war,
  2. the Ministry of Plenty (Miniplenty), which deals with economic affairs (rationing and starvation),
  3. the Ministry of Love (Miniluv), which deals with law and order (torture),
  4. the Ministry of Truth (Minitrue), which deals with propaganda (news, entertainment, education and art)

I always find it amusing when someone attempts to define a secondary issue by starting with the words “The Bible says…”  Everyone who holds to a conviction, be it the age of the earth, election, the role of women, forms of church discipline, etc., will spout their “proof texts” and appear startled when another person doesn’t see the obvious biblical logic of their argument. That is the reason that there are a gazillion denominations and Christianity is divided between Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox expressions. Every last one of them are absolutely convinced they have the truth and that everyone else is just plain illogical or not paying attention to what the Bible says.

Gossip and slander are often used interchangeably.

A number of months ago, I did a post on the use of the word slander in the Bible called Slander or an Inconvenient Truth. In the post we explored the Bible verses surrounding slander to prove a point.

It is vital to the discussion to understand that slander is an act of making a false statement in order to damage another’s reputation, etc. It is a big fat lie, and the person making it knows it, just as Satan knows it.

Therefore, the expression of a legitimate concern, based on a number of reports, is not slander but a form of Christian love. It is meant to protect the church from serious error; to help those who are being hurt by the church; to prevent harm to others in the church; and to exhort those in leadership to follow the example of Jesus.

Slander is a lie and the person making the claim knows that it is a lie. Unfortunately, many use the word to mean saying anything negative about an individual. What is interesting is that word “gossip” often appears in the same list of sins as slander. 2 Corinthians 12:20 NIV:

 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip,arrogance and disorder.

What I found even more fascinating is that, when I plugged in the word “gossip” into word search sites, I found the majority links listed verses that had the word “slander,” even without the word “gossip” being mentioned (here and here.) I found it interesting that when Justin Taylor wrote How to Stop Church Killing Gossip, he doesn’t use the Bible to prove his chosen definition of gossip which is:

Gossip involves saying behind a person’s back what you would never say to his or her face.

When I researched the word gossip, I found a number of business and psychology websites which deal with gossip in the workplace and in any other venue in which people gather. It is obvious that gossip is of interest to Christians and non-Christians alike. In general, it is considered a net negative

Gossip has been around since the dawn of man. In a Forbes article, we learn some of the history of gossip.(Ed. note The entire article, Might Office Gossip Be Good For You?, is worth a read.)

Talking trash is hardly a modern invention. It’s been around for ages, dating back to caveman days, when sharing information about others (Is he faithful? Is she a hard worker?) contributed to basic survival.

In ancient Egypt a hieroglyph from 1550 B.C. detailed the spread of gossip and suggested ways to curtail it. The Romans also partook: In Scorpion Tongues: The Irresistible History of Gossip in American Politics, Gail Collins notes that Mark Antony spread word that Caesar Augustus assumed the throne by bedding Julius Caesar.

Definitions for gossip include:

  • a person who habitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others
  • rumor or report of an intimate nature (Merriam Webster)

A number of other sources connect gossip with slander. (Wikipedia) I believe that this connection is key.

Gossip is idle talk or rumor, especially about personal or private affairs of others. It is one of the oldest and most common means of sharing facts, views and slander. This term is used pejoratively by its reputation for the introduction of errors and variations into the information transmitted, and it also describes idle chat, a rumor of personal, or trivial nature.

When is gossip bad? 

It is obviously bad when it is slander which means a false tale which is intended to hurt another. However, sometimes the intent is good but the results are bad. This occurs when a confidence is shared with the expectation that it will be kept. It is vital to know the rules of the game when one is talking confidentially as I learned the hard way.

True story:

Years ago, I was in a Bible study with a family whose husband had done something very hurtful to his wife. In fact, it was grounds for a divorce and that was being discussed. We all were trying to support the entire family but especially the wife. Several Bible studies were filled up trying to give her support and letting her vent. The day before the third meeting, another neighbor was joining the study. Due to the anticipated nature of the discussion, I decided to inform this person of the issue so that she would be prepared. I told her of the confidential nature of the problem and assumed all would be well since I had known her for years.

Hours before the study, the woman who was so hurt called me, crying hysterically. That neighbor had decided to inform a few other neighbors of the issue and now it was all in the open. I tried to explain my reasoning to her but to no avail. She told me that I had no right to say anything and that she had planned on not discussing the matter that evening. She was right. I apologized. Lesson learned. Even good intent can sometimes lead to inadvertent pain. That was one incident that I should have discussed with the hurt wife before I discussed it with anyone else, even a prospective member of the group.

The key may be found in the public nature of the person or organization.

We are a culture of gossips. People Magazine, Perez Hilton, the supermarket tabloids, etc. are replete with stories and rumors of public figures. When you are a public figure, you can expect the public to focus on you.You trade your private life for the public arena. Therefore, you open yourself up to examination and critique.

The law recognizes deliberate slander which is a lie with the intent to harm another person. You, as the critic, can say what you believe to be true. For example, there are many who still believe that Casey Anthony is guilty in the death of her daughter even though she is innocent in the eyes of the law. Many talking heads have stated their beliefs on this matter. However, they cannot not say that Casey Anthony has murdered other people since no such evidence has been found or discussed.

Does the person or organization vie for attention in the media or community?

When a person opens themselves up to public recognition and/or declares themselves to be a role model, they are  open for critique. How many politicians, espousing “family values” have been caught in embarrassing situations which appear to contradict their belief system? How many pastors have done the same thing?

Even more importantly, many of today’s Christian leaders and pastors often hold themselves us to be examples for the Christian and secular community. As I often say, they jump up and down, wanting to be recognized so that people will come to  their church. They are handing out an invitation to the world to look at them, quite closely. When they do so, they should expect that their lives will come under the microscope.

They cannot tell others to sacrifice and still hold onto their houses and private jet rides. They cannot condemn Jerry Sandusky and expect a pass on a poorly handled pedophile situation in their friend’s church.

One church leader put out a stupid tweet in which he declared that God caused a destructive hurricane because the USA was looking at ratifying gay marriage. Then he, and his friends, got bent out of shape when people disagreed with his apparent understanding of the Almighty. It was his fault. He went public, he gets to be criticized in the public. If you can’t take the heat of being under a microscope, then don’t run for Congress and don’t be a pastor. It is part of the territory. To claim that discussing a stupid tweet is gossip, is ridiculous.

Accusations of gossip are often “gag orders.”

The vast majority of posts under a Google search for “gossip” comes from churches and are written by pastors or leaders condemning gossip. I found an excellent post by Joy at Joy in the Journey called Gossip, Accountability and the Myth of Pastor Infallibility commenting on gossip. She called the following pastor’s assumptions a “gag order.”

I  recently read a series on gossip written by the pastor of a local church. In it, he defines gossip as “secret slander. Or as one lexicon defines it, gossip is ‘providing harmful information about a person, often spoken in whispers or in low voice, with the implication that such information is not widely known and therefore should presumably be kept secret.’” In the series, he describes at length all the harm that can be done by engaging in this kind of talk, whether or not it’s the truth about a person, and he calls on people to Jesus Christ’s standard of perfection – only godly speech always.

Churches and leaders are still sinful.

Joy continues

We have to accept that people at all levels are going to screw up, mistreat one another, break laws, and then try to cover it up. What are we to do then? If we are forbidden from ever discussing issues with anyone except the person involved, how can we hold one another accountable? How can we bring abuse, lying, stealing, cheating, manipulation, and any other sort of corruption to light?

The key to discussing negative things is the word “Why.”

Are you trying to trash their reputation? Or are you seeking their best interests, and those of everyone else involved? Are you trying to confirm whether your impressions or observations are true or accurate? Have you gone to that person directly and been rebuffed? Are you trying to remedy a bad situation, protect someone from being abused, prevent laws from being broken, or just help a person do the right thing or break a harmful habit? These are all right, good, healthy, and important reasons to discuss something harmful about a person.

When is it not gossip?

It is really quite simple. It is not gossip when you, as a church member, have a question or concern and need an answer. If one is a member of a church, (s)he has the right, and even the obligation, to question the use of tithes and the lifestyles of the pastors and church leaders. They have a moral duty to raise concerns about the safety and care of children as well as any doctrine that is being taught. They should question changes in church bylaws and constitutions. They have a right to know about the theological stances of the pastors and leaders  They should expect that pastors and church leaders will answer both thoroughly and truthfully.

Church leaders and pastors need to pull on their big boy pants and be willing to discuss the concerns of any member, even if it is awkward. They should be willing to take critique and role model how big boys in Christ handle criticism and concerns. Otherwise, they will come off looking like wussy Pharisees.

Here are some examples of problems which should be discussed and do not constitute gossip. In each of these circumstances, the people involved have been accused of gossip and slander.Some details have been changed.

  • Recently we received communication from a woman who expressed concern about the handling of money matters in her church. It appears that the lead pastor (YRR megachurch) had moved to a very large home. During this time, he has been involved in massive fund raising in the church. The budget was presented to the congregation with little time to look it over prior to the vote. There was a significant amount of money that was being held in an account to “bless the pastors.” When she raised her hand and asked a question about this, she was told that they needed the money to hold onto the great pastors they already had. They refused to answer more questions. This person had given a great deal of money to the church and was now questioning the use of that money.The elders refuse to answer any further inquiries on the matter.
  • There is a large church in which a pedophile badly harmed a group of boys. He is serving a lengthy sentence for his crimes. A mother of one of the boys let some church members know that they had reported an incident a year previous to the church. Their report was not only ignored but the psychological well-being of her son was called into question. The church had elected not to report the incident and did not have to because of lax reporting laws in that state.
  • A pastor, along with his buddies, ran up a $60 million debt. The pastor is living in a $2 million home. He is asking people to sacrifice to pay of the debt and he is still living in his mansion.
  • The Sovereign Grace Survivors site has documented years of alleged reports of child sex abuse and harsh  discipline. Lawsuits have been filed. Yet many of the YRR crowd defend the ministry.
  • A husband and wife spent many years telling people how to live a biblical, Christian marriage. They gave classes and were brought in on tough situations. They often made people feel bad because they would hold up their marriage as an example on how to do marriage. They got a divorce. Some folks who were the recipients of their “wisdom” have discussed it with one another, trying to figure what went wrong.
  • A pastor who decided to change the entire Sunday school program to better prepare kids for “the world” was highly critical of parents who enjoyed the old system. He was adamant, saying this program would prevent children from leaving the faith when they went to college. Two of his kids have left the faith after years of the “perfect” SS program.

In each of the above circumstances, the people attempting to confront the situation were accused of gossip and slander. But, was it? I would say no.

In Justin Taylor’s post How to Stop Church Killing Gossiphe quotes Ray Ortlund who lists the outcomes of “gossip.” It is important to remember that Ray Ortlund has been a supporter of CJ Mahaney. As you read the following list, I have an assignment for you. Read it in light of today’s church scandals and ask yourself this question. “Is he talking about gossip or gag orders?” I also have a question. Where are the Bible verses to back up his assertions?

  • Gossip is our dark moral fervor eagerly seeking gratification.
  • Gossip makes us feel important and needed as we declare our judgments.
  • It makes us feel powerful to cut someone else down to size, especially someone we are jealous of.
  • Gossip is a sin rarely disciplined but often more socially destructive than the sensational sins.
  • Gossip leaves a wide trail of devastation wherever and however it goes – word of mouth, email, blogging, YouTube.
  • It ruins hard-won reputations with cowardly but effective weapons of misrepresentation.
  • It makes the Body of Christ look like the Body of Antichrist – destroyers rather than healers.
  • It exposes the hostility in our hearts and discredits the gospel in the eyes of the world. Then we wonder why we don’t see more conversions, why “the ground is so hard.”

Comments

For My Friends in the UK: When Is Gossip Really Just a Gag Order Designed to Protect Church Leaders? — 54 Comments


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    1st


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    In a posting on the internet 5/5/2001 to ‘ Lori’ regarding Iain Murray Rev. David Robertson of the Free Church of Scotland, wrote :
    ‘Gossip is still wrong even when it is ‘reformed gossip’ and in the same thread to ‘Lori’ he wrote:
    ‘Do you think Christ as the head of the church wants his people to be publishing books which attack his own people, spread gossip and stir up dissension?’

    ‘And in his ‘Review of When Justice Failed in Church and State ‘, 2001, Rev. David Robertson   wrote: 
    2) I have no intention of speaking of matters that I do not have first hand experience of. There has already been too much gossip and second-hand information spread around 

    So far as the practice of discipline in the Free Church of Scotland (in 2001) is concerned “…the presbytery, for their own vindication…should be careful, first to inquire into the rise, occasion, broachers, and grounds of this fama clamosa” (widespread rumour) [The Form of Process, Chapter. VII. 3], and it is requisite to conduct “…a careful preliminary examination of proposed witnesses” [The Practice, Chapter V. Part IV. 2.12]. The result of a failure to fulfil these requirements will only ensure that the fama will continue to spread, because the Church is then left with no means of quietening it.The Practice states: “The investigation of rumour (or fama as it is called) is notoriously difficult because though rumour may be rife people may be unable or unwilling to bear relevant testimony. But the undoubted difficulty does not absolve the Church court from endeavouring to arrive at the truth.”
    In other words, so far as Free Church practice in 2001 is concerned , a fama must be taken seriously and cannot simply be dismissed as ‘gossip’.See also multiple posts by ‘malcolm’ dated 19,20,21,26,27 March and 4,9,11,12 April 2018 in thread ‘Regarding Donald Macleod
    and Other Like Pastors: To Our Friends in Scotland and Locally’ posted by ‘dee’ on 8 March 2018 on The Wartburg Watch

    website.


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    Thanks for this post, Dee.

    It is all too easy for authoritarian church leaders to brand the expression of legitimate, well founded concerns as ‘gossip’, ‘slander’, ‘divisiveness’, etc.

    At the same time such leaders are often very happy to engage in similar activity between themselves, ‘sharing’ (not gossiping obviously!) information, impressions or innuendo about church members, often with scant regard for confidentiality.

    If the culture of church leadership is such that members (or indeed other leaders) are afraid to share legitimate concerns without being accused by leaders of gossip or similar, then it may be time to leave that church. If others (or self) are being put at risk though such an attitude from church leaders, then it is necessary to speak up regardless.


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    This is an excellent post, Dee, and I thank you for it. I’m going to read it a couple more times to really digest it.

    I hope you are well today, and I just want to say I support what you do, and I am thankful for you, and I hope that you have a good day.


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    Reminds me of Robert Morris’ attack on watchblogs in which he essentially calls such interchange in Christianity as “gossip” and ministers/ministries who are subjects of blogs as making “Satan’s Hit List.”

    “I have to say this, um, I’m really concerned about how much time people spend on the Internet. I’m extremely concerned about it. Extremely concerned about it; here’s one thing, just even the blogs that mention Christian leaders, and I’m one of ‘em. Praise the Lord, I’ve made the Satan, Satan’s hit list now you know … You wouldn’t listen to gossip, but you’ll read it.” (Robert Morris)

    IMO, Christian watchblogs provide a valuable service to the Body of Christ by informing and warning believers of dangers in the camp. You sure the heck ain’t going to read about their misbehaving in the church bulletin! Brother Morris needs to understand that we, um, are extremely concerned about it, extremely concerned about it!


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    Any church that won’t let people ask legitimate questions and who won’t give answers is a church one should leave. The only private matters a congregation has no right to know are counseling and discipline matters involving acts and persons that do not threaten anyone else or do not potentially threaten anyone else.


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    Why do sheep baa? It means they are worried about something.

    A good shepherd listens to their cry … a false shepherd tries to silence them.


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    It always intersects additionally with something else like “worshipping” or “spiritual gifts”. The latter have to be rationed so that ordinary congregation members neglect the gifts and become passive.

    Oh I can’t have bad boundaries because I preach how the gifts have got to be under my thumb. Oh I can’t be bullying because I’m “worshipping” and shouting “ooh”!

    Why have Torontulated and Bethelated spirits caught on in the UK? We are burnt over and burnt out. “Sound mind” is an invented phrase, not in the “real” Bible!

    I was told from far flung countries that what’s left of today was World Prayer Day?

    MOD: Please don’t comment under multiple names. It makes you look deceptive. (plus it makes for extra work by the staff) GBTC


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    Robert: Any church that won’t let people ask legitimate questions and who won’t give answers is a church one should leave.

    That goes for organizations which won’t allow commenters on their websites (e.g., “Desiring God” (Piper); “9Marks” (Dever); “The Gospel Coalition”; etc. etc. in the New Calvinist Kingdom)


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    Max: raise the Lord, I’ve made the Satan, Satan’s hit list now you know …

    He’s such a Mighty ManaGAWD, Satan gives him Personal Attention!
    Isn’t he Sooooooooo SPECIAL?


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    Max,

    Yes, funny how they think that the authority they exert in their churches should also be exerted on the internet! And that despite the 9 Marxists and their gospelly friends having an ecclesiology which emphasises local church authority and frowns on parachurch organisations.


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    Sjon,

    Even on Twitter! The Grace Community clan cracks me up and makes me sad at the same time in their constant attempts to censor Twitter about the scandals in that church.

    Well, maybe if you don’t like people talking about your scandals, you should make sure you are doing things on the up and up? Because nearly all of their recent scandals are problems of their own making.


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    Well…..the thought that always crosses my mind is….we as believers should not be afraid of TRUTH!!!! There should be discernment about certain private issues….i dont need to know some things about others….but finances? Sex abuse issues? Seriously??? If you are trying to hide its just gonna make me wonder what you are up to….


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    When I saw this, I thought it was going to be a discussion about how American and UK/British libel laws are very different. It’s not, but I will take a moment to note that American and UK/British libel laws are very different. American libel law is very freewheeling. It’s generally hard to win a libel suit in the USA, particularly if one is considered a “public figure” or “limited public figure.”

    By contrast, UK/British libel law is “tighter.” I can’t say that I’m especially familiar with it, but there have been some famous cases where, for example, Americans who wrote books were dragged into UK courts for libel when their books were imported over, specifically because UK libel law used to be very, very favorable to plaintiffs. Unlike the USA, the truth was, back in those bad old days, not quite the absolute defense to libel it is over here. I also know of books that have never been published in the UK, but are available in Europe, the Republic of Ireland, Australia, etc., because of the fear of lawsuit. In more recent years, things have lightened up a bit, with the Defamation Act of 2013, which prohibited “libel tourism.” That said, British tabloids do set money aside to pay libel judgments.

    It’s best to have one’s facts straight and not embellish. Usually the truth is quite enough.


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    Lindsay,

    I have often wondered what more I could (or can) do to be of help.


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    Sjon,

    The folks in charge of *Biblical* counseling in the US have declared *confidentiality* a *no go* because they might have to *report* sin to the pastor. You’ll be hearing more about this shortly when I do a couple of posts about Heath Lambert and FBC Jacksonville.


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    Sjon: If the culture of church leadership is such that members (or indeed other leaders) are afraid to share legitimate concerns without being accused by leaders of gossip or similar, then it may be time to leave that church.

    I agree. There are far better churches out there which will not abuse you for asking questions.


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    Magistos,

    How kind of you!!! Thank you.


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    Michael,

    Staff? I have staff?????Where are they????


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    dee: Staff? I have staff?????Where are they????

    Right next to your rod…


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    dee,

    under the kitchen table?


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    elastigirl,

    I think it might be the other way around…


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    “When Is Gossip Really Just a Gag Order Designed to Protect Church Leaders?”

    When Truth to Power is mislabeled as gossip. Jesus spoke truth to power. Jesus did not gossip.


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    Max: Robert Morris’ attack on watchblogs

    Power that will not withstand Truth speaking to Power.

    Like in Jesus’ time. Jesus spoke truth to power. He was truth. Power put Jesus on the cross, not God’s power but the principalities of this world:

    “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.” from Ephesians 6.


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    Someone pasted an application of this passage of Scripture:

    19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. (John 3:19-21).

    What this person pointed out is that when church leaders deflect and try to call legitimate concerns and even pointing hypocrisy as “gossip” or “slander” maybe the above applies.

    Sadly leaders that do this shows how much they truly hate light and fear that there “deeds might be exposed.” I found that application of this passage quite enlightening


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    Also one book on cults cites Jay Lifton’s 8 themes that are central totalistic environments including today’s cults. One of the themes is “Mileu control.”

    “In man groups, there is a ‘no gossip’ or ‘no nattering’ rule that keeps people from expressing their doubts or misgivings about what is going on. The rule is usually rationalized by saying that gossip will tear apart the fabric of the group or destroy unity, which in reality is the rule is a mechanism to keep members from communicating anything other than positive endorsements. Members are taught to report who break the rule, a practice that also keeps members isolated from each other and increases dependence on leadership.”

    From “Cults in our Midst” by Margaret Thaler Singer

    A lot of the gossip teaching and culture I use to see in Sovereign Grace/Covenant Life Church sure reminds me of the above. I am sure it is similar in a lot of other groups that use this statement.

    Just something to consider is this teaching against “gossip” a form of control? From what I have seen many times it is.


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    Steve240: “In man groups, there is a ‘no gossip’ or ‘no nattering’ rule that keeps people from expressing their doubts or misgivings about what is going on. The rule is usually rationalized by saying that gossip will tear apart the fabric of the group or destroy unity, which in reality is the rule is a mechanism to keep members from communicating anything other than positive endorsements. Members are taught to report who break the rule, a practice that also keeps members isolated from each other and increases dependence on leadership.”

    From “Cults in our Midst” by Margaret Thaler Singer

    = New Calvinism


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    Here’s the fundamental problem with all issues of church abuse: Fundamentally, people want power and they want to protect their friends.

    It transcends theology, race, economic class. We’ve seen it in New Calvinist churches. We’ve seen it in the Roman Catholic Church. The worst church abuse case I have had personal contact with occurred at a Lutheran church. It happens in traditionally African American churches. It happens in white evangelical churches. It happens in every country. It’s a sin thing. It will always happen as long as sinners are in the church. The best we can do is reduce its occurrence. How do do so?

    1. People need to demand that their churches have clear definitions of what will invite church discipline and what constitutes gossip.
    2. People need to demand real external accountability for their leaders. Don’t go to a church where the elders have no accountability to any body higher than that church or where the congregation can’t fire them.
    3. People need to stop letting their leaders get away with cheap grace. There’s no reason Driscoll, Tullian, et al should have churches. The only reason they do is because too many laypeople love cheap grace.
    4. People need to stop treating Christian celebrities as if they can do no wrong. I think this will require people to better separate the teaching from the man. A lot of people receive true spiritual help from a teacher’s content and because of that, they think that calling attention to the teacher’s sins somehow invalidates all of his or her teaching.


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    Ava Aaronson: our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. … from Ephesians 6.

    It’s wonderful that you have quoted this passage in the service of Robert Morris’s victims.

    Far too often, Christians quote that verse to mean that we should ignore the troubles of the world we see: the “real” problem is not abuse, starvation, or pandemic, but gossip and witchcraft and not tithing enough.

    Robert Morris presses the idea of unseen forces into his service. He’s on the wrong side, eh?


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    ishy,

    ha!

    (i’m not 100% sure i’m tracking — but it’s still funny — i’ll go out on a limb and say i think i’ll set up my ‘office’ under the dining room table {kitchen floor too crunchy]. how cozy! each chairseat as a shelf or filing tray…)

    (….afraid to ask– am i tracking? or am i on another planet, like i’ve always suspected?)


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    Steve240: In man groups, there is a ‘no gossip’ or ‘no nattering’ rule that keeps people from expressing their doubts or misgivings

    Our relatively healthy church does the opposite. They ask for our opinions about things big and small. People actually care about, say, the poor lighting in the library—so ask for their ideas!

    1) This is not customer satisfaction. This is listening.

    2) Decisions will not please everyone, but everyone can feel heard and respected.

    For awhile, we had congregational surveys, but they were not well designed. The past couple of years, survey questions have invited members to give the church a score on virtually everything from worship to community outreach. Identifying ourselves is optional. Lo and behold, people gave low marks in some areas (I scorched them about several things in free responses), and the church set about making improvements. Mirabile dictu.


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    elastigirl: am i tracking?

    That depends on who the staff is. If the staff are pugs, they might be under the table. Although at my house, I’m sure I’ve seen a dog on a table… 😉


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    Friend,

    Honestly, anonymous congregational surveys like your church does is a great idea. It’s probably the only way to get a fully honest response.


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    Ava Aaronson: Jesus spoke truth to power. He was truth.

    The Father gave Jesus all authority in heaven and on earth. Every knee shall bow … even religious leaders.


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    elastigirl: (….afraid to ask– am i tracking? or am i on another planet, like i’ve always suspected?)

    I was just assuming the pugs were under the table and dee is their staff.

    But I do have an actual wood staff…


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    ishy,

    ok, tracking now.

    (i need more help than i thought)


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    this is depressing.

    i suppose i could give my planet a really fun name… as a positive gesture


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    Of the four churches I served as pastor, the 4th one was the most disconcerting as to how “prayer requests” were woven into “gossip.” Early in my tenure I was invited to attend a “prayer and pot luck” made up of several families in the church. As each of us started to share prayer requests for others, I was shocked at the level of discussion given each prayer request. For instance, it wasn’t, “Pray for Mary because she and John are having difficulty in their marriage.” It was a long, specific discussion of what the person “knew” about Mary and John, and each person in the group joined in. It often took over 2 hours to share prayer requests (followed by an oddly short time of prayer) because everyone wanted to “tell all.” After the 4th meeting, I asked the group why so much information had to be shared, especially since some of it was hearsay. The response I received is that “God has to know everything that is going on so he will know how to respond in their lives.” I shared that I felt that God probably did already know it all; he just needed us to add our prayer and concern. From a personal standpoint I suggested that I was uncomfortable in hearing so much. I was met with silence and stares. I didn’t return to the group, but was so blessed to hear in “gossip” a few weeks later how specifically the group was praying for me . . .


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    Of the four churches I served as pastor, the 4th one was the most disconcerting as to how “prayer requests” were woven into “gossip.” Early in my tenure I was invited to attend a “prayer and pot luck” made up of several families in the church. As each of us started to share prayer requests for others, I was shocked at the level of discussion given each prayer request. For instance, it wasn’t, “Pray for Mary because she and John are having difficulty in their marriage.” It was a long, specific discussion of what the person “knew” about Mary and John, and each person in the group joined in. It often took over 2 hours to share prayer requests (followed by an oddly short time of prayer) because everyone wanted to “tell all.” After the 4th meeting, I asked the group why so much information had to be shared, especially since some of it was hearsay. The response I received is that “God has to know everything that is going on so he will know how to respond in their lives.” I shared that I felt that God probably did already know it all; he just needed us to add our prayer and concern. From a personal standpoint I suggested that I was uncomfortable in hearing so much. I was met with silence and stares. I didn’t return to the group, but was so blessed to hear in “gossip” a few weeks later how specifically the group was praying for me . . .


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    Luckyforward: I felt that God probably did already know it all; he just needed us to add our prayer and concern.

    Thank you for doing that.

    The groups at our church also deliberately omit specifics. “Sally’s having a rough time” is about the most obvious it gets.

    When we have healing prayers during services, the clergy member never asks what the concern is, or whether we are seeking prayer for ourselves or for someone else.

    (We have counseling too, but that differs from prayer requests and healing services.)


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    Glad that TWW is back on the air. I figured the New Calvinists hacked the site for all the gossiping we’ve been doing about them.


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    Max: I figured the New Calvinists hacked the site

    Me too, and I hoped that Dee and GBTC were saddling up ponies to send the next post by Pony Express.


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    Max, how is your son-in-law’s Grandma with COVID doing?


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    readingalong: Max, how is your son-in-law’s Grandma with COVID doing?

    Readingalong, thank you for asking. I should have kept the Wartburgers updated. She is still testing positive for COVID-19, but only has minor symptoms. Unfortunately, the stress resulted in a worsening of her dementia and she will be unable to return to the assisted living facility. She remains hospitalized until she can be transferred to a memory-care facility that will receive her, given her COVID status. She has only had phone contact with family for weeks. All of this has taken a toll on her declining health. Prayers are still needed.


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    Friend: I hoped that Dee and GBTC were saddling up ponies to send the next post by Pony Express.

    Again. Ponies were gone before we started. It was all telegraph all the time back in those days of yore.


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    GuyBehindtheCurtain: telegraph

    – …. .- -. -.- / -.– — ..- / ..-. — .-. / -.-. .-.. .- .-. .. ..-. -.– .. -. –. / … – — .–. / .. / … – .. .-.. .-.. / .– .- -. – / .- / .–. — -. -.– / … – — .–.


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    We were sometimes told to obtain spiritual coaching from congregation seniors but they were unapproachable or declined to make arrangements. (This was a blessing.)

    The biggest & vaguest buzz word = “worship”.

    A word that does the rounds is “gateway”.

    And talk of “jumping in the river”.

    I’ve heard about the trips to Hawai’i, too!

    I’m realising what doctrinal shenanigans were around me from my infancy, nearly always shrouded in respectability and “convention”. (Trendiness is merely a variation. And now, it’s old, not young people, that flock to the rock concerts.)

    I know my parents had also faced the same obstacles. I believe God intended our family as mystery customers. I’ve got to quit with the cynicism and get respectful.


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    Robert: better separate the teaching from the man. A lot of people receive true spiritual help from a teacher’s content and because of that, they think that calling attention to the teacher’s sins somehow invalidates all of his or her teaching

    A clever variation is to innovate in teaching at the same time, especially in a denomination where chopping and changing is an “immutable” principle. That way, to the deferent, at least a superficially “consistent” appearance is displayed. A man whose name is on all the public’s lips is a hugely devastating example.


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    Robert: A lot of people receive true spiritual help from a teacher’s content and because of that, they think that calling attention to the teacher’s sins somehow invalidates all of his or her teaching.

    Bill Cosby was a super funny guy, but I still threw out all his records.


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    Michael,

    “The biggest & vaguest buzz word = “worship”…

    ..I’ve heard about the trips to Hawai’i, too!

    ..I believe God intended our family as mystery customers. I’ve got to quit with the cynicism and get respectful.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    yessir, on big, vague, & buzz where the word “worship” is concerned.

    Hawaii?? i’m assuming on the tithe-payer’s dime under the guise of ministry?

    i don’t think it’s cynical, but rather realistic.


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    Hawaii?? i’m assuming on the tithe-payer’s dime under the guise of ministry?

    Probably not – but the hype and the subsequent visit by their acquaintances over there, to us, were shallow affairs. Those people were in some kind of ministry training (having come from all over the world) and I wasn’t impressed by their bossiness and brashness.

    Sending people abroad in mixed groups is a recurring ploy. The disorientation and inducement to mania don’t make for solid formation, even without major flaws in the programme.


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    Friend: Bill Cosby was a super funny guy, but I still threw out all his records.

    Which makes the life of “Pill Cosby” more tragic.

    This wasn’t some obvious loser; this was a guy who actually achieved some great things. Came out of a rough part of Philly and became a success in standup comedy. Broke the color barrier on network TV. Rose to the top of his chosen profession. Achieved great acclaim and awards, even received a genuine doctorate. And turned out to be not only a womanizer, but a serial rapist. All those achievements down the drain.