Maybe he doesn’t want the general public being able to see what he preaches.

“In the meantime, you can bet that Mark Dever and the dudebros will live stream T4G and charge you an arm and a leg for listening to their wisdom.” (Dee)

Here is the page where he asks people to pay for the T4G streaming service so that T4G will not go bankrupt: https://t4g.org/update/
You can get the “Exclusive Livestream Package” for $299.

Funny. Just this morning I was thinking that God might glorify Himself during this pandemic by shutting down churches that preach a Gospel other than Christ crucified, or are nothing but white-washed social clubs. How? When the emergency is over, and churches can meet again, how many people will decide that going to a Sunday-morning social club, or a “church” led by someone who claims to be a shepherd but practices “Respect my authoritah” really isn’t preferable to sleeping in.

Dever’s reasons have for me a bit of the feel of (maybe it is a 9Marks or YRR thing) an interpretation of what in Reformed circles is called the “regulative principle”, that everything a local congregation does “in the name of Christ” has to be explicitly warranted in Scripture. Things that aren’t explicitly warranted in Scripture are not to be done, lest they anger the Deity and bring upon the congregation or its leaders the kinds of punishments that one sees from time to time in Scripture for transgressions related to the details of worship (e.g. premature death for partaking unworthily, 1 Cor, or death for offering “strange fire”, Leviticus). It might be sort of a “whatever is not commanded is forbidden” mentality.

This is such an extraordinary set of circumstances that it might feel safer to simply do nothing “as a church, in the name of Christ” at all.

I agree that there does appear to be a kind of mechanical view of grace implied in his expressed concerns, which is a bit odd from a more traditional Reformed point of view, I think (perhaps I am mistaken). As I understand it, the benefits of partaking in the Sacraments, for example, are all apprehended by faith. One would think that a live-streamed or even a recorded message could be an instrument of grace in this sense, that it would stimulate the faith of the remote participant.

It is hard not to suspect that something else might be going on, and perhaps not at a conscious level. Perhaps offering a “substitute” remote means of participating would have the effect of weakening the perceived-by-the-laity necessity of showing up in person. That possibility might be troubling to someone with as high a view of the importance of his own authority over the flock as Dever’s.

Neo-Cals are just another manifestation of Fundamentalism which has to do with power and control. As my late Professor of New Testament at SEBTS (back when it was a real seminary in the 1980’s) Dr. Donald E. Cook defined Fundamentalism:

“I can see the fun and I can see the damn. But I’ll be damned if I can see the mental.”

Re: whether the 9Marks model works with a longer suspension of periodic pastoral authoritative communication toward the flock,

It is conceivable to me that there may be no return to the status quo ante in terms of large meetings. Dr Fauci is warning that Covid-19 may become a seasonal thing:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fauci-says-us-needs-to-be-prepared-for-coronavirus-to-be-cyclical/ar-BB11I0s1?ocid=spartanntp

It seems likely that vaccines will be developed, but it’s hard to know at this point how protective they will be. Common cold coronavirus does not seem to be amenable to the development of an effective vaccine.

It is conceivable that “return to more nearly normal” will entail public health advisories against meetings as large as the megachurches are accustomed to.

I’m sitting here with my mouth open.,,it’s rather like saying women shouldn’t take drugs for pain in childbirth since God didn’t okay it officially in the Bible.

Meanwhile, I’m taking my box of Resurrection Eggs down to church tomorrow so I can be taped for a children’s message in Spanish for Easter Sunday. Don’t tell Mr Dever!

Linn: Meanwhile, I’m taking my box of Resurrection Eggs down to church tomorrow so I can be taped for a children’s message in Spanish for Easter Sunday. Don’t tell Mr Dever!

Provided that any adult males within earshot don’t understand Spanish, it should probably be fine.

Samuel Conner,

It’s always fine at my church.

No. No! Wait just one cotton-pickin’ minute.
If Dever thinks on-line services are “unbiblical”, then why aren’t on-line tithes and donations “unbiblical”, too????
Y’all just have no clue how happy I am to know that that man (and I use the term loosely) packed up and left Kentucky! ……. can’t help but wish he’d left the USA.

Mark Dever isn’t a pastor. He’s a hireling …… on an extended vacay………… waiting for those Benjamins to roll in through on-line giving.

I have no idea what retroactive church discipline is, but I wish we could mix some up for Bill Hybels.

Samuel Conner: Dever’s reasons have for me a bit of the feel of (maybe it is a 9Marks or YRR thing) an interpretation of what in Reformed circles is called the “regulative principle”, that everything a local congregation does “in the name of Christ” has to be explicitly warranted in Scripture.

Except everything they do is extremely cherry-picked to create the cult atmosphere they are after and they blatantly ignore some pretty clear verses in favor of others that aren’t quite so clear.

Like the other day when they used a verse about sex to mean Christians aren’t supposed to isolate.
Like there are no church membership covenants in the Bible.
Like the “church” is all Christians everywhere and not a local body.
Like that we’re all priests under Christ our High Priest.
Like we’re to all submit to each other.

Linn: I’m sitting here with my mouth open.,,it’s rather like saying women shouldn’t take drugs for pain in childbirth since God didn’t okay it officially in the Bible.

As far as I can recall, in the sixties and seventies Catholic hospitals in my area were said not use anaesthesia readily for women in childbirth, because of Gen 3,16:

To the woman he said:

I will greatly increase your pain in childbearing.
With painful labor you will give birth to children.

I may be wrong, it’s a long time ago.

To a point, I can understand Dever not wanting people to see online church as a substitute for the corporate gathering.

HOWEVER,

This position is just really odd. How many true Christians will actually think this is a full-on substitute for the “real” thing. (I’m talking about Christians who are normally able to leave the house, not shut-ins). It’s a stopgap measure to help people in a time of crisis. It seems that if he is going to be consistent, he should tell congregants not to stream any church’s worship service or any Christian teaching. At least that would be more coherent even if still mistaken. That’s why you last comment, Dee, is spot on. If you really think the local church is the key part of the Christian life and your local church can’t meet, why is this other stuff like T4G acceptable. Simply because it will be only sermons/talks? Then just stream a sermon/talk to your people each week. It certainly is possible for Dever’s church to do this.

If a congregation is used to hearing from its pastor, wouldn’t it be better for that congregation to still hear preaching from that pastor in a crisis even if not in person?

When the Apostles couldn’t gather with Christians in the ancient world, they sent letters. Modern pastors aren’t Apostles, but why can’t Dever just apply a similar principle. He can’t meet with Christians, but He can send a sermon.

It just makes very little sense, especially for churches that make preaching central to worship, which Dever’s church certainly does.

Lea: is Dever literally just taking a few weeks/months off???

Looking at it a different way, one can argue he has been more than a little off for years.

Samuel Conner:
Dever’s reasons have for me a bit of the feel of (maybe it is a 9Marks or YRR thing) an interpretation of what in Reformed circles is called the “regulative principle”, that everything a local congregation does “in the name of Christ” has to be explicitly warranted in Scripture. Things that aren’t explicitly warranted in Scripture are not to be done, lest they anger the Deity and bring upon the congregation or its leaders the kinds of punishments that one sees from time to time in Scripture for transgressions related to the details of worship (e.g. premature death for partaking unworthily, 1 Cor, or death for offering “strange fire”, Leviticus). It might be sort of a “whatever is not commanded is forbidden” mentality.

This is the same mentality that many conservative Churches of Christ have; if it is not explicitly authorized in Scripture, it is forbidden. Hence our many arguments over whether or not we can have instrumental music since there’s no specific authorization for it.

Uh oh! What will he do with Jonathan Leeman’s quote now? “Stop calling yourself a Christian if you’re making a habit of living independently from the local church.”

Brent:
FOLLOW THE MONEY??
Could it be that Mark Dever isn’t going to let his own preaching in the CHBC pulpit be livestreamed for free (presumably) when he is charging and getting paid for livestreaming as a T4G speaker?

Bingo!

Robert,

“If you really think the local church is the key part of the Christian life and your local church can’t meet, why is this other stuff like T4G acceptable.”
++++++++++++++++++

deep magic

it all has to do with some deep magic

Jarrett Edwards: Maybe it will be a good thing. His members might stream a service from other churches, wake up and never go back to his churches.

That was the first thing that occurred to me, too.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): If Dever thinks on-line services are “unbiblical”, then why aren’t on-line tithes and donations “unbiblical”, too?

An excellent question.

“Because a video of a sermon is not a substitute for a covenanted congregation assembling together and all the various means of God’s grace in that.”–Mark Dever
++++++++++++

‘God’s grace in that’ = i think he really means, “magic”

in fact, it is so magic you don’t even know it is happening.

wow, it’s so magic that people leave the mystical ‘covenanted congregation assembling together’ not remembering anything that was said!

must be some deep magic indeed. 😐

elastigirl: must be some deep magic indeed.

My dog knows about this deep magic. I took her on a wellness walk today as a break from this evil teleworking confinement and she deposited some of her magic. She knows how valuable it is because I carefully collect it and deposit it into a special vault so that the city can collect it once a week for its archives.

Friend,

“Have you ever seen a pastor’s letter so thoroughly and unnecessarily lawyered over?”
++++++++++++++

i’m not good at ‘lawyered over detection’ — what do you see?

why the need for lawyer’s advice? (i amgood at both missing and stating the obvious)

Ken F (aka Tweed),

“she deposited some of her magic.”
++++++++++++

i can’t tell if Mark Dever is knowingly trying to spin some of your dog’s ‘magic’ into silk, or if he is truly superstitious about it.

Abigail: if he is not actually preaching then he should temporarily be cut from the payroll….right?

I don’t know what Mark Dever normally does during the week, but writing sermons and preparing for services does take a lot of time.

The clergy at my church are still working very hard, just not in the usual way. Every member’s needs and circumstances have changed, and we suddenly have to do everything virtually. But our folks are still writing sermons and preaching. It consoles me to know that they are still conducting worship services, even though they are recorded for play at members’ convenience.

Strange realization: I miss our comforting worship space as much as I do the gathered people.

dee: Some have developed sneaky ways to leave so they won’t get disciplined

Such as faking their own deaths? 😀

Ken F (aka Tweed): My dog knows about this deep magic. I took her on a wellness walk today as a break from this evil teleworking confinement and she deposited some of her magic. She knows how valuable it is because I carefully collect it and deposit it into a special vault so that the city can collect it once a week for its archives.

That stuff could be valuable, if processed properly. There’s a whole chapter in Les Misérables about how the sewers of Paris were a wound in the body of France, bleeding the nation’s wealth into the Seine.

And then, of course, there is The Humanure Handbook .

Friend: A letter to a congregation in distress needs to be simple and consoling, not jam-packed with facts and a couple of disclaimers, comparisons with schools, and so on. It’s almost as if they want to refer back to it in future…

Maybe their Attorney(s) wrote it?

“Sir,” the woman said, “you must be a prophet. So tell me, why is it that you Jews insist that Jerusalem is the only place of worship, while we Samaritans claim it is here at Mount Gerizim, where our ancestors worshiped?”

Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem. You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews. But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”

The woman said, “I know the Messiah is coming—the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

Then Jesus told her, “I AM the Messiah!” Just then his disciples came back. They were shocked to find him talking to a woman, but none of them had the nerve to ask, “What do you want with her?” or “Why are you talking to her?”

John 4:19-27 NLT

Lea: is Dever literally just taking a few weeks/months off???

Dever has been taking years off from ministry. What he does could not really be called pastoring. The 9Marks disciplinary environment is more like a concentration camp.

Maybe the Church Staff just wants to take a break and the Covid-19 is a good excuse.

Will he get paid while he is not preaching? I think we know the answer. And of course if a church member asks him that they will be disciplined.

Daisy: At the end of the day, I think we need to avoid trying to “reproduce” normality through digital means. It is not normal, nor should it be, for churches to “gather” virtually.

Some churches are choosing to live-stream services.

Personally, I’m not sure the real value in that unless you feel like you need to reproduce the “professional production” of a Sunday service, which may indicate a problem with how we conceive of corporate worship.

Rather, we should feel uncomfortable with being apart; this is not how it’s supposed to be.

I agree with these snippets from the article, and like the ideas proposed in most of the rest of it.

However, the author discourages folks from taking part in communion while worshiping at home, saying that communion should be reserved for communal gatherings. I don’t necessarily agree with this part. Jesus says, “Do this in remembrance of me,” not “Do this in remembrance of all of you gathered together.” And even if it was “in remembrance of all of you gathered together,” wouldn’t that be all the more reason to do it while apart from the rest of the “body,” to remind us that we’re in this together and not all on our own?

Wottevahhh. *

Meanwhile, local church congregations, and ministers, here are helping organise support for the elderly, those who are otherwise clinically vulnerable on health grounds, and frontline health professionals who are working long shifts and can’t necessarily get to the shops even to the degree that they stock any food.

I’ve no doubt that other Wartburgers, on all sides of the Atlantic, can tell similar stories involving ministers who are not famous, who never have been, and who do not aspire to speak at conferences or, by other means, to preach to the largest groups of christians they can. Also of christians, singly and in groups, who are not professional clergy but who demonstrate their faith by the way they love their neighbours in deed, not just in word.

I’m reminded of the John Oliver ** episode on televangelists. He begins it with: There are over 350000 congregations in the United States and many of them do great work: feeding the hungry, clothing the poor. BUT, this is not a story about them…

* This works best in a kind of London accent. I’m struggling to find examples on FaceTube so far.
** He has a Birmingham accent – as in, THE Birmingham. He grew up very near where I did, actually, and if I were to spend any length of time speaking to him, I’d drop back into the same accent! Although I kind of lost mine while living in Cambridge.

Nick Bulbeck: I’ve no doubt that other Wartburgers, on all sides of the Atlantic, can tell similar stories involving ministers who are not famous, who never have been, and who do not aspire to speak at conferences or, by other means, to preach to the largest groups of christians they can. Also of christians, singly and in groups, who are not professional clergy but who demonstrate their faith by the way they love their neighbours in deed, not just in word.

They usually seek mainline denominations, in my experience, as pastors don’t often have the power in mainline denominations to start their own churches, but they do have lots of resources to render aid.

The culture for pastors inside the SBC and at the seminaries is more about becoming rich and famous than being a minister to others. I do believe that many attend seminary with a heart for others, but that can easily go astray when surrounded by people who think being a pastor means starting a megachurch.

It appears that Devers is issuing his divine right to religious sanctions against his members as remedial punishment for situations he cannot manipulate and control.

When personal and community crises occur, many have experienced genuine love and helping thy neighbor from the non-card carrying members of the body of Christ. I, personally, can always count on the “done and none” former churched members who exhibit more Christlike characteristics and fellowship than the prideful religious people such as Devers.

Evidently his sermonettes aren’t worth anyone’s time to listen too via the internet. So special thanks go out to Devers personally, for sparing church members wasting their time on him!

Dee, I sure enjoy and have learned much from Wade Burleson’s sermons here on the internet. Thank-you for providing that fellowship resource.

VANCE:
Maybe the Church Staff just wants to take a break and the Covid-19 is a good excuse.

Dever said he expects his staff to maintain normal office hours. Source: https://www.9marks.org/pastors-talk/episode-120-on-shepherding-saints-while-sheltered-in-place-with-garrett-kell/

Karen: It appears that Devers is issuing his divine right to religious sanctions against his members as remedial punishment for situations he cannot manipulate and control.

Hopefully, the Deverites, Mohlerites, Piperites, etc. are using their down-time to come to their spiritual senses … a break from the routine of doing church the Dever-way to realize how off-course the New Calvinist movement and its band of elite leaders really are. If so, this bad time in America could be good in the long run if it puts the brakes on the aberrations of the new reformation. The American church needs to get back to worshiping Jesus, instead of celebrity preachers.

Wry song parody lyrics posted this week by former 9Marksist Gregory Thornbury:

https://twitter.com/greg_thornbury/status/1242594735065358336

he tweeted:

“I put new lyrics to Pete Seeger’s ‘Where Have All the Flowers Gone?’ for our current moment in culture.
@DavidDark asked if I’d make it public with the lyrics…

“Where have all the streamers gone? Long time passing.
Where have all the streamers gone? Long time ago.
Where have all the streamers gone?

Left their pastors everyone.

When will they ever learn?”

dee: Some have developed sneaky ways to leave so they won’t get disciplined.

A sure sign that such ministries are NOT.OF.CHRIST. The Church of the Lord Jesus Christ is a free church. Where bondage rules, believers need to exercise their freedom and get the heck out of there.

Daisy: Rather, we should feel uncomfortable with being apart; this is not how it’s supposed to be.

Many people have mentioned that when we are apart from friends and family, separated by distance not virus, we call, send letters, or yes, now, video chat. Why is this different?

We did a small group on zoom. I hate that they seem to be shaming people for having some type of message on Sunday’s..

Friend: Strange realization: I miss our comforting worship space as much as I do the gathered people.

I miss many of the older members I see on Sunday mornings. I am thinking of sending an email to say hi!

I continue to read the O.T. prophets and I choose to meditate on how what they said, so long ago, is relevant to us today. In Zeph. 3, I find points to meditate on. The first four verses talk about the people of God in the symbol of the city where the temple is:

“Woe to the city of oppressors, rebellious and defiled!
She obeys no one, she accepts no correction.
She does not trust in the Lord, she does not draw near to her God.
Her officials within her are roaring lions; her rulers are evening wolves,
who leave nothing for the morning.
Her prophets are unprincipled; they are treacherous people.
Her priests profane the sanctuary and do violence to the law.”

These verses speak very much of where we are at today with evil politicians and the fact that very few have any interest in responding to a call to actually repent themselves. Repentance is something the others guys need to do. It does not apply to the guy looking back at me in the mirror. Our religious prophets are false profits and are truly treacherous people. Many of our pastors are doing violence to God’s Word to twist it into saying something that it does not say.

Then it switches and talks about God Himself:

“I have destroyed nations; their strongholds are demolished.
I have left their streets deserted, with no one passing through.
Their cities are laid waste; they are deserted and empty.
Of Jerusalem I thought, ‘Surely you will fear me and accept correction!’
Then her place of refuge would not be destroyed, nor all my punishments come upon her.
But they were still eager to act corruptly in all they did.
Therefore wait for me,’ declares the Lord, ‘for the day I will stand up to testify.
I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms
and to pour out my wrath on them—all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger.”

The “deserted streets” remind me of pictures of our big cities that have almost no one walking or driving through them. So is God again thinking that we will certainly wake up with this now and “Surely you will fear me and accept correction!” Will we be like Judah that refused to stop acting corruptly? People claiming to be Christians keep telling me that God does not have fierce anger and that He judges no one. So I have a few questions: Why does God promise that the “whole world will be consumed” then? Is He deceptive? Is He too confused to actually say what He means? Does the N.T. cancel out the Old? That is not what Jesus said. He came to fulfill it. What about the N.T. prophecies? Does “the Lamb of God” actually give decrees, like the breaking of seals, that release judgments on the earth much more severe than what is happening now?

Next it talks about the restoration of Israel with promises that have not happened at this point. God’s wrath is over then only

“because I will remove from you your arrogant boasters.
Never again will you be haughty on my holy hill.
But I will leave within you the meek and humble.
The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the Lord.
They will do no wrong; they will tell no lies.
A deceitful tongue will not be found in their mouths.”

These things certainly have not happened at this point. Then God speaks of his blessings and that God “will rejoice over you with singing.” And then comes the most fascinating part to me at this moment, “I will remove from you all who mourn over the loss of your appointed festivals, which is a burden and reproach for you.” Is God saying that all our appointed festivals, from Easter to Christmas and the whole “church calendar” are things that are both a burden and and evil that we are doing? There are many mourning the loss of those right now as many an Easter service is pretty much sure not to happen next month. Why does God say that if the Jewish, and our, appointed festivals are really the great things that our religious leaders say they are? Again, is God confused? Does He not know that these words are troubling to us who like such things? Is He lying? Is He really talking about something totally different, like some kind of idiot who does not realize people will misunderstand Him? Or are all these things really got no future at all in some point in time in the future?

The chapter ends with more promises to those righteous who are left and have not been taken in judgment.

elastigirl: so, ishy, what would mark dever say to me? did i do something terrible? did i sin?

he can’t say it didn’t count, because God’s not counting.

I doubt he would agree with you about God not counting. And you are female, so of course you couldn’t be a pastor or have any authority in Dever’s mind. Women are subhuman and their only purpose is to obey and serve.

I’m not sure you can apply logic or even theology to what they preach. They have created a religious system that revolves around themselves. If they aren’t the center of it, it doesn’t happen.

Lea: I hate that they seem to be shaming people for having some type of message on Sunday’s..

Just speaking personally, I wouldn’t mind “some type of message” on Sundays. It’s sitting and trying to focus on a 50 minute sermon while the comments from other viewers are scrolling past, my kids are restless, my stomach is rumbling, and the sunshine is calling that was distracting. But then, I was getting restless with 50 minute sermons every week, anyways, so this is probably more my problem than their problem 🙂

You wanted links like this one with familiar name Russel Moore and two big churches defying bans on meetings: https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/lauren-green-coronavirus-crisis-why-some-churches-are-defying-bans-on-gathering

I have to say that I agree that abstaining from his services / sermons is a good idea. They should not start again when the contagion ends, though.

me:
I have to say that I agree that abstaining from his services / sermons is a good idea. They should not start again when the contagion ends, though.

I think it’s a fair chance that “social distancing” may become “the new normal” even if effective therapies and/or a vaccine are found. This is likely to be seasonal and even with therapies available, large gatherings may be, going forward, a bad idea.

I’m guessing that a lot of the mega-people right now are trying to figure out how to monetize TV and internet “ministry”.

Todd Wilhelm: I am not aware of a radio ministry, but he does participate in a podcast on the 9Marx website:
https://www.9marks.org/pastors-talk/episode-120-on-shepherding-saints-while-sheltered-in-place-with-garrett-kell/

Next Thought: It’s okay to participate in podcast, but not okay to livestream church services/sermons? I’m missing something in this thought. Physical presence requirements are different between the two.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

“Hmmm… Individuals empowered with courage and strength apart from a membership covenant and heavy-handed discipline?!? Tsk Tsk Tsk!”
++++++++++++

“Stop, Wonder Woman! Stop, I say! You do not have the authority to fly fist first through that rock mountain to save us all!”,

said King Friday Mark Dever, 12″ tall and flapping his little flappy arms about, right before she zooms in and swoops her hand into his handkerchief body and paper mache head, flying him to safety.

“You are under church discipline for being sinfully strong and courageous!”, he said, still chattering, as she set him down at his castle before flying off and away to rescue the other pastors in one armful.

About six weeks ago, four golf buddies and myself got together to do daily morning devotionals by email. Each of us has a weekday. It has been an incredible blessing. We each get the opportunity to share our spiritual insights while at the same time growing more intimate as brothers in Christ.

https://juicyecumenism.com/2020/03/27/michigan-episcopal-bishop-bonnie-perry/

No Virtual Services

Dale:
About six weeks ago, four golf buddies and myself got together to do daily morning devotionals by email. Each of us has a weekday. It has been an incredible blessing. We each get the opportunity to share our spiritual insights while at the same time growing more intimate as brothers in Christ.

Dale, that’s awesome! You are being the church, instead of sitting as an observer instead of a participant.

elastigirl: it’s like an imaginary world. like the neighborhood of make-believe on mr. roger’s neighborhood.

Thing is though, Mr. Rogers was the real deal, he went out into the world and practiced Jesus. He helped make the world a better place in the here and now.

Wild Honey: But then, I was getting restless with 50 minute sermons every week, anyways, so this is probably more my problem than their problem

Ah. See our entire service is about 50 minutes! The sermons are 15-20m tops. The service itself online is actually shorter than a normal service too since a lot of the corporate stuff is cut out…I have enjoyed them and I actually liked the Facebook live commenting because it was nice to see people but the only did it the first weej

Muff Potter,

“Thing is though, Mr. Rogers was the real deal, he went out into the world and practiced Jesus. He helped make the world a better place in the here and now.”
+++++++++++++

indeed. i love mr. rogers. i didn’t appreciate him as a little kid — he wasn’t kool and exciting like The Electric Company was (i’m talking very young, here).

but watching footage now… he really moves me to tears, his kindness and sincerity. agenda-free. selling nothing. just giving. totally devoid of self, zero false humility.

elastigirl,

I agree. I loved watching both Mr. Rogers and the Electric company in the television entertainment world. Never liked nor watched Sesame Street or anything muppetish as everything we watch has an agenda. Watched Billy Graham as a child and found myself turned off by his message of self righteousness while earning volumes of money from religion. His religious and monetary empire reaches into the millions all the while Jesus never had a place to rest His head.

Guess using the name of a jesus figure earns one millions, glory, fame, and a following like Diotrephes.

Samuel Conner: Things that aren’t explicitly warranted in Scripture are not to be done, lest they anger the Deity and bring upon the congregation or its leaders the kinds of punishments that one sees from time to time in Scripture for transgressions related to the details of worship (e.g. premature death for partaking unworthily, 1 Cor, or death for offering “strange fire”, Leviticus). It might be sort of a “whatever is not commanded is forbidden” mentality.

Wait… was electronic amplification available to Jesus?

Electric guitars in the praise worship band?

Was email to cancel church meetings available in Paul’s time?

I think not. The whole thing falls apart pretty quickly if you give it any thought and have read scripture for yourself.

If I remember correctly Mark Dever will not give communion to his friend Ligon Duncan a Presbyterian because he baptizes babies.

Mrs Clutterbug: If I remember correctly Mark Dever will not give communion to his friend Ligon Duncan a Presbyterian because he baptizes babies.

There is also this from the TWW archives:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/04/15/breaking-fellowship-over-%E2%80%9Cordinances%E2%80%9D-at-t4g/

Robert,

This just reminded me that the vicar of a conservative evangelical church I used to attend once said that we shouldn’t listen to online sermons, because you don’t have “covering” from that vicar/ pastor, and you don’t know who they are and whether they are sound or not. The level of control he wanted was unbelievable. Oh but of course they could download sermons from their friends to give to us. We just weren’t allowed to exercise our own judgment about whether or not something was okay.