1st

Good Lord.

Father, be with Boz and Mitch, and the Bragg family as they stand for righteousness and truth in the face of utter hypocrisy. Amen.

Uhmm. I question whether the membership contract is binding on the alledged victim. It will depend on TX law.

Example: Child goes to an amusement park and signs Hold Harmless form. Child is hurt and Proprietor claims Child signed away right to recourse.

This may not be accepted by State Courts. Some States do not allow children to waive rights, nor can parent sign away.

Eleven is pretty young and Counsel may have ability to argue Child can not do this. Maybe.

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

Unfortunately, I think you are correct on all counts… It is really Pathetic…
A church leader molesting a child, and at a church camp, is about as depraved as it gets… and covering it up, which is what it is, is even more depraved….
these “Christain leaders” are pathetic hiding behind their lawyers..

Nathan Priddis,

It really is pathetic that such a situation like this can come down to legal dickering..

Very disappointed in Matt Chandler! This doesn’t even remotely come close to doing right by this family. Glad they have Box T and Mitch L to help them!

Do y’all reckon Chandler will be in Birmingham this week?? ……cryin’ shame he isn’t scheduled to speak at the convention!

Great NYT article by Elizabeth Dias. I had to laugh at this quote from the article:

“Trusted church friends said hiring a lawyer would not be biblical, citing scripture and the membership covenant.”

Glad she didn’t listen to this “trusted friends.”

Steve,

Because the membership covenant, which is a legal document with lawyers hands written all over it, is all over the NT…. yup, keep those pew peons in there place, and hit them over the head with the Bible, while we cover up leaders molesting little girls…. and throw in the leaders lying that the pervert never worked at our church..
Yup, fine, upstanding place The Village Church is…

These situations are difficult, especially when you have a trust relationship (supposedly) between pastoral staff and congregants. This case also makes you wonder if there are other victims besides the one who was brave enough to come forward. Someone creeping around at night where children are sleeping puts too many potential victims at stake. What I find more amazing is that Matt Chandler didn’t learn from the last time his church tried to protect a perp. It will probably take a large financial settlement for him to get a clue.

My church has recently taken some additional steps to ensure safety in our children’s ministry. The leadership admits that nothing is full-proof, but we have tightened up
our sign-in procedures, pickup (no, your teenager cannot get your child, or your friend without written permission), lessening foot traffic through the children’s wing, and background checks every two years for those who already passed the first one. There is only one open entrance from the outside, and we have a number of enthusiastic greeters who help both visitors and the ‘”lost” (this after a few purses went missing last year from homeless people wandering in). It’s sad, but necessary, and we all seem to do okay with the extra security. The church actually developed a full security plan to handle everything from a natural disaster to an active shooter. We have some retired medical/police folks who put it together. It’s basically people who know what they are doing, scattered around the parking lot and hallways, to help with the flow of traffic (cars and feet), make sure people find where they want to go,and to help those that need it (sometimes our visitors from the homeless encampment down the road are a bit unhinged). I’m glad they’re responding to the real world, although it does make me sad sometimes.

Lance (the other one),

“Tonne played Santa at Highland Village Elementary school AFTER the church knew but before the congregation knew.”
++++++++++++++++++++

did The Village Church leadership ever inform the congregation of Matt Tonne? my reading is that they did not.

Lance (the other one),

“If you let TVC get away with this, you are tacitly approving them exposing children to danger. If that was your kid on Santa’s lap, would it be okay with you?

…..This is the time, vote with your feet, vote with your $$. Say enough is enough.”
++++++++++++++++++

My understanding of Dallas is that it has a unique culture. For example, department store buyers choose merchandise that isn’t in their other stores in other parts of the country, to suit Dallas’ unique taste and style.

My understanding of Dallas is that it’s religious culture is unique, as well.

As in, going to church is a status symbol (or something along that line).

I remember hearing some commentary that indicated churches and powerful industries (like newspapers, news stations) are in each others’ pockets. Like, newspapers might protect pastors/churches rather than publishing negative press about them.

Can anyone in-the-know (Lance) confirm my understanding here?

My next question: if there is any veracity to the above, do Dallas-ites have it in them to push back hard against an unconscionable church that is very popular and powerful?

(i mean, i can lend them my bull horn if they’ll use it. it goes up to 11.)

How can we as a blog family help fund the lawsuit of the parents of this girl?

elastigirl:
Lance (the other one),

My understanding of Dallas is that it has a unique culture.For example, department store buyers choose merchandise that isn’t in their other stores in other parts of the country, to suit Dallas’ unique taste and style.

My understanding of Dallas is that it’s religious culture is unique, as well.

As in, going to church is a status symbol (or something along that line).

I remember hearing some commentary that indicated churches and powerful industries (like newspapers, news stations) are in each others’ pockets.Like, newspapers might protect pastors/churches rather than publishing negative press about them.

Can anyone in-the-know (Lance) confirm my understanding here?

It is still the Bible Belt. Most politicians, realtors, attorneys, insurance guys, etc., find that a large church is the best way to get business, so it is part of the social-scene, though becoming less-so as Dallas secularizes.

As to the media, when the Hinkley scandal was first about to break, TVC warned the congregation that the newspaper was going to run a story, but that we shouldn’t believe the newspaper. They said they were going to send an email (so we could understand what was *really* happening), then the story never ran. Months later leadership made another announcement, and this time the story broke (but not in the Dallas Morning News if I recall correctly). I’m guessing TVC pressured the Dallas Morning News to suppress the story initially, but I don’t know. Dee, any insight on this?

I’ve heard that Gateway church has been able to keep the media quiet – to some extent – about their financial shenanigans.

Lance (the other one),

“As to the media, when the Hinkley scandal was first about to break, TVC warned the congregation that the newspaper was going to run a story, but that we shouldn’t believe the newspaper. They said they were going to send an email (so we could understand what was *really* happening), then the story never ran. Months later leadership made another announcement, and this time the story broke (but not in the Dallas Morning News if I recall correctly). I’m guessing TVC pressured the Dallas Morning News to suppress the story initially, but I don’t know. Dee, any insight on this?

I’ve heard that Gateway church has been able to keep the media quiet – to some extent – about their financial shenanigans.”
+++++++++++++++

Dallas evangelicalism sounds like a totalitarian society.

Lance (the other one),

Sounds like the Mormons in Utah. I lived in southern Utah for two years.

Of President’s religious advisory panel, James MacDonald having already left it, are there any other of the megapastors on the panel who have covered up or didn’t admit having pedophiles in their organization? I only ask this because being kicked off the panel for hiding pedos could initiate a conscious.

TS00,

I’m sure not. but in this conversation,

does a fish know it’s wet? if not, how does someone who knows how to speak fish explain it and convince him/her of it?

does a Dallas evangelical know they are controlled by totalism? if not, how does one explain it and convince him/her of it?

(in other words, how do i get them to borrow my bull horn and turn it up to 11?)

singleman,

“Does your church also require child safety training classes for anyone who works with children and teenagers? My church does, along with periodic refresher courses. I believe background checks also have to be redone periodically. I agree it’s sad but necessary in this day and age.”
++++++++++++++++

it’s always been necessary. even in neanderthal children’s ministry. (i’m God was talking to them, too)

Someone mentioned that the huge fines have not seemed to change the Catholic Church. You have to hit these evangelical churches where it hurts-their pocketbooks. Once a precedent is set with a major lawsuit, I would not be surprised if other churches do not take notice. It is sad this is the avenue that must be taken but Jesus had an extreme response to child abuse-something to do with dead weight and drowning. This will not bring back innocence lost and destroyed but can bring some sense of justice to the equation.

Well, Matt Chandler is going to be speaking at an event tomorrow for Baptist 21:

BREAKING: Per today’s NYT article (Village, abuse), @MattChandler74 will be taking a break from his sabbatical to join tmrw’s B21 Panel to address it. While we r sold out of lunch tickets, we r opening up $5 panel-only upper-deck tickets [removed Eventbrite link-is everything about money?]

Apparently this will also be livestreamed.

I responded:

I hope this includes Chandler resigning because this is NOT the first time @villagechurchtx covenant has been used to hurt people. May 2015 and Karen Hinkley should ring a bell. *scowl* tired of this abuse.

I’m REALLY tired of this abuse. And yes, I fully realize that even punitive damages won’t stop organizations from reoffending. That’s why agreements have to include strict oversight.

We know what happens when the oversight isn’t strong enough. That’s why the Catholic Church is basically a cabal of recidivists right now, seventeen years later, because they’ve not learned their lesson. They weaseled out of strict oversight. They’re losing people. My ex-boyfriend, a formerly devout Catholic, is now teaching adult Sunday school at a Methodist church and they are happy to have him.

The SBC either needs to clean their act up or dissolve itself as being a dangerous organization since it won’t keep track of child sex abusers nor discipline churches that handle sex abuse scandals badly. Oh, and my suggestion for the SBC is to have a session at the convention where the pastors and messengers chant “Call 911” for an hour to get it drilled into their heads about who to contact when child abuse is reported.

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

“BREAKING: Per today’s NYT article (Village, abuse), @MattChandler74 will be taking a break from his sabbatical to join tmrw’s B21 Panel to address it.”
++++++++++++++++++++

he’s on entitlement-sabbatical, too?? a long vacation fully funded on the backs of hard-working donors sacrificially going without?

it just keeps getting worse…

I read this article this morning in the NY Times and I was sick to my stomach. It’s been so long since I naively trusted that church leaders really were what they present themselves to be that it kind of shocked me all over again how gullible and naive the parishioners were. They really are sheep to the slaughter. Ripe pickings.

Why should these self important bigwigs care about a molested child here and there? It’s just part of the cost of doing business. They sweep it under the rug and move on. As long as there are gullible, trusting souls, their fortunes are secure.

SiteSeer: Not until it is their child who is molested and they get the treatment.

Many children and teens will never tell Mom and Dad. Churchgoing parents tend to be a loudly prudish bunch. The children might not know the correct words. Parental instruction about modesty (if not done with great care) can feed into self-blame and silence the victim.

Even if the child’s behavior changes because of trauma, many parents will chalk it up to hormones, or a phase, or a rebellious streak.

How is Max doing?? We have not head from him in awhile…

ERLC panel last night Russell Moore,Beth Moore, Rachael Denhollander, JD Greear on abuse, SBC very interesting………SBC convention

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Matt Chandler is going to be speaking at an event tomorrow for Baptist 21

Baptist 21 is essentially “the” gathering place at SBC annual conventions for the young, restless and reformed. They are pre-conference meetings held at the national meeting site, but are essentially a stand-alone conference in the shadow of the big one. Baptist 21 is ‘the’ reason the young reformers travel to SBC annual gatherings – they only go to the main convention floor to cast their votes for Calvinist officer nominees and resolutions that benefit their cause. The rest of the time, they hang out at local coffee shops and breweries tweeting their lives away.

Chandler will show up at Baptist 21 to be adored by the young reformers and perhaps at a book-signing table in the exhibit hall, but he won’t bother himself to attend the main conference proceedings.

“Chandler wrote a short note to the family, apologizing for not being in touch” (Dee)

Too big, too important, too busy to be bothered. Chandler is a “Lead” something or other at TVC, but not a Lead “Pastor.”

Max: “There is a lot of skepticism, and I think some of it is justified, because the survivor community is used to hearing a lot of words,” Denhollander said “What we’re not used to seeing is action.”

http://www.bpnews.net/53073/panelists-assess-sbc-on-sexual-abuse

For example, SBC approved a resolution at its 2013 annual meeting “On Sexual Abuse of Children”, which read in part:

“We encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.”

That resolution had Al Mohler’s affiliation with C.J. Mahaney and SGM in mind (although not named). Mohler left that meeting to continue his association with Mahaney and see his bud join the SBC a couple of years later!

SBC annual meetings are long on words, but short on action. Messengers from across the SBC landscape gather each year to bask in the glory of the SBC elite, hold hands, sing kumbaya, and resolve to be better people … but then go home and do business as usual. Mohler finally got around to saying he was sorry about the Mahaney mess … but only after the spotlight was turned on him during the Houston Chronicle expose’. When the lights are turned off at SBC-Birmingham, things will go back to normal in SBC life … unless the watchbloggers and national media keep holding their feet to the fire.

Max: Is a sabbatical Biblical?

I think the question is really–is a paid pastoral sabbatical biblical? These guys use the money of people who probably never will have more than two weeks at a time off to take months and months off. And most of them have salaries that would allow them to take an unpaid sabbatical.

Lea: What kind of people think it’s a good idea to ‘ask members to write Tonne letters of encouragement after he had been put on a leave of absence for unknown reasons’ in the face of child abuse?

A symptom of the institutional church gone amiss. Living life upside down.

Jack: And the love bombing. Yeesh. This is twisted.

I think the love bombing is the key here. When you think someone is decent, or an administration is good, you expect them to do the right thing. Especially a religious organization. And when they don’t…you have to sort through what you thought you knew of them and who they are and completely rewrite it. That’s hard.

It’s hard with people too. I get that.

What I don’t get is how they make these terrible decisions, over and over again, when the ‘right’ decision morally would probably be best for the church too and all the people in it except the perp. Why don’t they just throw them to the wolves? The only reason I can think is they sympathize and that’s a terrible, terrible thing to think.

ishy: Or they believed it was a lie.

I mean…that theory is just wearing thin for me. I’m tired of it.

What is their motive for thinking people are lying???? Because ‘I don’t want to deal with it’ is not working.

Linn: and the two reports I’ve made have been handled well.

Did you report directly to police first, or to church leaders?

The ERLC panel is going exactly the way I expected it. Greear and Russell Moore are mansplaining and not allowing the women, who are all survivors (like Rachel Denhollender and Beth Moore) and experts (like Susan Codone) to speak at all.

I’m sure that was the plan all along. They’re not interested in fixing things, only reinforcing their narrative.

Lea: What is their motive for thinking people are lying????

Women and children are lower on totem poles than leaders and men?

ishy: They believe they are golden high priests of God and nothing bad happens to the chosen ones.

Let me reframe this. My friend in a New Cal church and I have been talking extensively on this particular issue. Her church is getting to the point that they are church disciplining everybody, because nobody can follow their crazy rules. And they discipline people for asking questions.

She made a comment to me that she was talking to another member who was spouting all the propaganda, and she asked if all this was really working? People kept getting church disciplined, and the same things happen over and over. A lot of people had been getting kicked out and “unelected”. But that person still desperately wanted to believe nothing bad really happens to “the true elect”.

It’s a horrible theology that not only is bad from a biblical perspective, it just plain doesn’t work. People that abuse others cause bad things to happen. Eventually, their bad actions catch up with them and bad things happen to them, albeit deservedly. Church discipline doesn’t work to fix it and they keep having to “unelect” people. But the leaders are so enamored with being at the top of the hierarchy, they just get more and more desperate to keep it going.

I mean, look at JMac. The stuff coming out about him gets crazier and crazier, and he keeps doing worse things to keep that place on the top of the hill. It’s not about following God. It’s about being a god. It’s exactly what God said was against Him.

ishy: Greear and Russell Moore are mansplaining and not allowing the women, who are all survivors (like Rachel Denhollender and Beth Moore) and experts (like Susan Codone) to speak at all.

I respect people who want to change things from the inside but at a certain point the only way to change things is to abandon them entirely. A shame they’re all too arrogant and stupid to be taught but oh well.

Matt Chandler is just a sick misogynistic creep conman who is not man enough to go out and get a real job.

Matt Chandler runs a cult devoted to his wealth and ego.

SiteSeer: It’s been so long since I naively trusted that church leaders really were what they present themselves to be that it kind of shocked me all over again how gullible and naive the parishioners were. They really are sheep to the slaughter

And Church Leaders have a Mr Creosote-sized appetite for Mutton.

Vance (formally known as the one Lance): It is sad this is the avenue that must be taken but Jesus had an extreme response to child abuse-something to do with dead weight and drowning.

“A millstone makes a poor flotation device.”
— Coffee with Jesus

Jeffrey Chalmers: It is really Pathetic…
A church leader molesting a child, and at a church camp, is about as depraved as it gets… and covering it up, which is what it is, is even more depraved….

these “Christain leaders” are pathetic hiding behind their lawyers..

Have they played the SAY-TANNN-IC PERSECUTION!!!!!!” card off the bottom of the deck yet?

And claimed it as a sign of their Great Holiness?

Friend,

I told my mother who was born and raised in the Southern Baptist Convention and she told me to get over it and not tell anyone.

My father who had a southern baptist preacher father told me when I was thirteen that rape is not that big of a deal.

When my mother was twelve a fourteen-year-old boy she had gone to church with all her life tried to rape her at church.

Note: I am traveling to Birmingham and will be home on Wednesday.

Yay! I grew up near Birmingham.

ishy: And that’s why it’s not even really hyper-Calvinism. I remember Wade on here saying something about believing your are elect should lead to humility, not hubris.

Problem is, once you’re the Predestined Elect, you already have the ultimate Get Out Of Hell Free Card, so why not? You’re God’s Speshul Pets! Rulers of Tomorrow! Master Race!

And all the others? They’re already Pre-Damned Reprobates so why bother? You’re God’s Speshul Pets!

ishy: But that person still desperately wanted to believe nothing bad really happens to “the true elect”.

Make that “the True Elect (like MEEEEEEEE)”.
“First they came for The Jews, but I wasn’t a Jew…”

Remember the Khmer Rouge and the Killing Fields of Cambodia? At the time Vietnam invaded and overthrew them, their Kill Orders had grown to “EVERYONE Except Khmer Rouge Party Members who joined BEFORE the Takeover”. (AKA the Really Truly Elect.)

Headless Unicorn Guy,

I like that phrase….

Headless Unicorn Guy: Mr Creosote

You never cease to amaze me. 🙂

Nick Bulbeck: Yay! I grew up near Birmingham.

I always suspected you be a redneck, Bulbeck.

Beth74: redneck

Watch out, he’ll use Redneck as his next nom de plume. Although maybe it would be nice to get the Redneck Cricket Update (now with great hair!).

Friend,

Most of my memory of attending church is toast other than we attended the same congregation for a long time. That was because I had to sit in the same pew every Sunday with my molester.

The only difference is when we lived in Minnesota for two years, attending a small traditional Baptist church. The adults left the building at some point and then we would have Sunday School taught by an elderly lady dressed like Dana Carvy’s Church Lady charachter. That is why when I started attending church again, one of my first thoughts was to attend a Baptist church.

Dee, I appreciate much of your work. But this entry seethes with bitterness and cynicism that interprets everything in the worst possible light. Could you take some time with our Father to check the state of your heart?

Link to live tweet:
https://twitter.com/sarahesmith23/status/1138517570628308998

Lea: What kind of people think it’s a good idea to ‘ask members to write Tonne letters of encouragement after he had been put on a leave of absence for unknown reasons’ in the face of child abuse?

It is diabolical.

Thanks so much Ishy for the link to the live Tweet by Sarah Smith!

That is beyond disappointing. “I’m not sure what we could’ve done different.” Seriously Matt? You could have announced it immediately via every communication channel you had (even without the perp’s name, just the event and date) so all the parents of additional potential victims would have known! You could have made it clear that sex abuse is just as important as alcohol abuse as a reason for firing him!

This whole thing makes me sick. Is he intentionally lying/dissembling/covering up, or is he really this clueless about what the important issues are? I honestly don’t think it matters much which it is, the result for the victims and their families is the same.

bendeni: Is he intentionally lying/dissembling/covering up, or is he really this clueless about what the important issues are?

I think the answer is definitely the first, and that was a decision informed by Ministry Safe, whose job is to “save” churches from liability, not protect victims as they claim in their propaganda.

Ishy: You can’t be around kids and be drunk (paraphrase).

Also, yes you can.

Drunk people who are nice are nice drunk or sober. Mean people are mean drunk or sober, they’re just extra mean.

(caveat, you obviously shouldn’t be supervising young children or driving anyone drunk, but at a bbq or something? Eh)

bendeni: “I’m not sure what we could’ve done different.” Seriously Matt?

N Y Times article: “[Chandler] had mailed a short handwritten card to the Braggs back in July, apologizing for not being in touch. When Mr. Bragg suggested coffee, Mr. Chandler’s assistant offered a time that was months away.”

So there’s another thing Matt: You could apologize now, to the Braggs, that you were so unavailable for an issue of this importance. You could rebuke the assistant that keeps your schedule, and make it clear going forward that SEX ABUSE is important enough that other things should be canceled/postponed so you can HAVE COFFEE with these parents. What good is a handwritten card apologizing for not being available, if you then continue to be unavailable?

bendeni: So there’s another thing Matt: You could apologize now, to the Braggs, that you were so unavailable for an issue of this importance. You could rebuke the assistant that keeps your schedule, and make it clear going forward that SEX ABUSE is important enough that other things should be canceled/postponed so you can HAVE COFFEE with these parents.

Sarah Smith
@sarahesmith23
“I’m not here to save face. I’m here because I don’t want you to think we don’t need to be serious about these things.” -@MattChandler74 #SBC19

ishy: The ERLC panel is going exactly the way I expected it. Greear and Russell Moore are mansplaining and not allowing the women, who are all survivors (like Rachel Denhollender and Beth Moore) and experts (like Susan Codone) to speak at all.

Just prop them up on stage and the watchbloggers and media will think we honor and respect women now. If they were really sincere about this (1) Moore would have simply introduced the women, gave them the mic, and sat down for the duration, and (2) Greear wouldn’t have been on stage at all. These are all very smart women with a story to tell … no steering the discussion by men needed.

“”I don’t see a lot of change in how things are handled,” Codone said. Churches still practice what she described as “the catch-and-release policy.” Pastors are caught in sexual abuse but are quietly removed by their churches and able to go to other congregations without disclosure of their crimes. The youth pastor who abused her served churches in the Birmingham area for 33 years before he died, she said.”
http://www.bpnews.net/53073/panelists-assess-sbc-on-sexual-abuse

Ishy,

These comments prove to me they were intentionally covering it up…… i do not care if he was the nicest person on the face of the earth. What is is alleged to have done to a little girl, as a pastor, at a church camp, is such a level of depravity I have trouble writing it.

Ishy,

My molestor, my stepfather, used alcoholism as an excuse for all his behaviors, whichever behavior he let the outside world to see. After doing rehab three times all his abusive behaviors only increased. The alcohol leading to a person becoming abusive has always been the strawman argument.

My own Dad, drank to block out his experiences from the Vietnam War, was the gentlest person I ever knew.

R McPherson,

Their mindset doesn’t identify with being a victim of anything. It identifies with the abuser.

After I was saved, one of the things I did was look up all the verses in the Bible regarding anger.

His Word showed me that even though my anger may be justified for having to live through an abusive childhood, it in itself could and did cause me further harm in my daily life.

If they will not understand the victims and survivors of abuse and molestation, they’ll never get it, address it.

ishy: I think I might really have to go to Waffle House tonight and drown myself in pancake syrup. I can’t even anymore with these guys…

I’ll join you! The leaders are idiots or playing at being idiots or lying. And it’s all disgustingly wrong.

Jeffrey Chalmers: I am not saying do not talk to lawyers, just put justice, and the victims interest above your own and your organization.

Every lawyer is going to tell them to keep their mouth shut and not talk to anyone, which includes the victims. Pro institution and anti Christlike behavior . . .

R McPherson: How many hours of sermons and Bible studies have been spouted from this man’s lips giving advice to people on how to live a Godly life in a broken world. And suddenly they seem to have frozen up and not have a clue as to what to do about child molestation in church…

That tends to happen when YOU become the Job on the spot, scraping your boils off in misery instead of standing around fat & comfortable giving Godly(TM) Advice to the Job on the spot.

Law Prof,
It wouldn’t surprise me if she was a member. If I was Church Counsel, I would pretty much feel it’s malpractice to not obtain a signed form. I would also want the girl to be directed towards a Counseling provider that could be legally regarded as a Business Associate, or related entity.

If she did sign a membership, I dont think it would be an overreach for her to claim fraud. How is she going to remember what she signed, in what office.

If she went to outside therapy sessions, she would have signed consent to treat and HIPAA. I would supeana every stop she made from TVC, any outside TVC advisor, or any Service Provider, asking for any document bearing the girl’s signature.

In this case, any signed form of any kind might backfire. If the therapist was a TVC non-related party, everything should be fine. But, its hard to see any legitimate need for a medical or mental health records disclosure back to any TVC associate.

If a TVC associate obtained any information with intent to formulate a TVC defense, I would pursue them.

Brian: After I was saved, one of the things I did was look up all the verses in the Bible regarding anger.

His Word showed me that even though my anger may be justified for having to live through an abusive childhood, it in itself could and did cause me further harm in my daily life.

Hard-earned wisdom.

Brian,

Well said! My anger grows daily the more I read about these cases. I really believe a deeper cancer is growing in these church bodies than what we may realize. But I like Dee’s approach at tackling one case at a time and one institution at a time. Thank you for bringing up the anger issue though! Prayers for you!

Law Prof: It’s really simple, just love the Lord God with all your heart and love your neighbor in the same way you love yourself. When one gets away from that simple truth and starts loving their power and the sound of their own voice and their systems and their idol leaders, it make a madman out of them.

I honestly think that is pretty accurate. When one absorbs the doctrine of ‘the elect’, of course considering self one, it is as if their moral conscience is killed. They believe themselves irrevocably chosen, and nothing they do can threaten their position. That is a very dangerous way to think.

Add to that the self-righteous holier than thou-ness, and you get a good ol’ modern day Pharisee, who genuinely believes that, like God, anything he does is acceptable.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/11/us/southern-baptist-convention-sex-abuse.html

Did Matt Chandler lie? i believe Ms Bragg.

“The Village disputed the Times article’s characterization of how the Braggs were treated, saying for instance that Matt Chandler, the lead pastor, spoke with Ms. Bragg in September, at a group meeting with many other families.

On Tuesday, Ms. Bragg said that was “simply not true,” and that the family had never met personally with Mr. Chandler since her daughter’s disclosure. Ms. Bragg said another top pastor explained to her the night of the group meeting that Mr. Chandler would not talk with her then because he did not want to draw attention to them.”

Muff Potter,

A good tort lawyer can smell money like a good hound can smell treed coons.

dee: That would mark the end of their $70million building and they would be toast throughout Christendom.

I can hear them hounds bayin’ already…

elastigirl,

Muff Potter,

Here’s one of the comments from Dreher’s comment section, quoting *extensively* from the Village Church email. They picked every old thing to throw at it:

“….the facts from the Village email:

The article implies that we were unresponsive to the Times. In fact, we interacted with the Times on three occasions during the writing of the piece providing context, information and clarifications.

The article implies we have covered up the story. To clarify, we released the news before anyone else on September 16, 2018, on the front page of our website and in our weekend services. We contacted law enforcement within hours of the incident being brought to our attention and encouraged the Bragg family to report it to the police, as well. We also posted public updates to thousands of people on our social media channels. Some national media outlets picked up the story after we released the news.

The article implies we did not publicize the accused individual’s name to protect him and/or the church. To clarify, the lead police investigator (Detective Michael Hernandez) specifically asked us not to publicize the name because doing so would jeopardize the case. We honored the direction dictated by law enforcement so the investigation could be properly handled by the police. We again proactively released an update by sharing Matt Tonne’s name publicly on our website and social media channels once it was a matter of public record and an arrest was made.

The article states that TVC fired Matt Tonne knowing that he was named in the case. It implies that the reason of alcohol abuse is a cover for the reason of the assault allegation. To clarify, the decision to remove Matt for alcohol abuse was made back on May 15, 2018, prior to his being named as the alleged perpetrator in the case. Because Matt was then hospitalized for his own safety, TVC refrained from terminating him until after he was released from treatment.
As the article states, church pastors met with the Braggs and they signed off on all public communication to address any concerns that the Braggs may have had.

The article suggests that we did not offer care or express empathy for the family. To clarify,
Matt Chandler reached out via email on several occasions and spoke in person to Mrs. Bragg the day we notified the families of 2012 Camp attendees.

Brian Miller, one of our lead pastors, was actively involved in caring for the Braggs with regular communication.
The family received regular ongoing care from their home campus, the Southlake campus, in the form of phone calls, emails, in-person meetings and pastoral care. They also received paid outside counseling, along with financial support. This continual and documented holistic care went on for over a year.

The family expressed gratitude via email and in person for the support shown to them by TVC by elders, pastors, staff and many members.

The family remained involved in ministry environments at the Southlake campus (including Student Ministry, Recovery Groups and Steps ministries and Kid Keepers Ministry) until as recently as last week.

The article states that Love & Norris is TVC’s legal counsel. To clarify, our formal relationship with Love & Norris is in a consultant role in the specific area of safety, as Love & Norris helps churches and organizations reduce the risks of child sexual abuse.

The article implies that the membership covenant is used to control members while protecting us from a lawsuit. To clarify, Doug Stanley referenced our membership process as just one piece of many that help us screen those who serve here. He did not say it would prohibit or prevent a member from committing this kind of crime. Our membership covenant’s dispute resolution process is not in place for the purposes of secrecy but is in place because we believe that the Scriptures prescribe the manner in which conflict should be resolved (Matt. 18:15-20; 1 Cor. 6:1-6). All of our conversations related to the membership covenant’s dispute resolution process were made with the hopes of reconciliation.”

Sorry so long.

Headless Unicorn Guy: WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati – Possum Lodge

A thought inspired by a number of prior comments: in humans, the condition of having the mental function of conscience provided by external constraint — because it is internally lacking — is a trait associated with sociopathy.

These self-protective church-like institutions appear to exhibit sociopathic traits. And while this has a lot to do with the quality and character of the individuals who hold offices of authority within the institutions, it may also be in part a consequence of the legal structure (incorporated businesses) of the institutions. Businesses have a range of stakeholders, many or most of whom may prefer that the enterprise (through the agency of its officers) not admit genuine fault (think of the current scandal re: Boeing).

Perhaps one can foresee a day when people will be as concerned about the theology and polity (the combination of “neo-cal” and “independent” does not appear wholesome) of the church they are considering attending as they are likely to be about the specific make and model of the airliner they are contemplating booking a flight on.

Patrice,

It is important that we all get to hear “the other side”. American judicial system is based on the ideal to allow both sides to “ tell their side of the story”. I obviously do not get the local Dallas papers, nor the emails.
Unfortunately, as I am learning first hand through professional experiences, and, in general, not “ living under a rock”, the general principle:
he who has the most money, and power, tends to dominate “telling their side”
It is really sad how “corporate” American Christianity has become …. remember, as far as I know their is no question that “ a little girl was molested at a church camp, by an adult”….. heck theology, best practices, etc, etc….. this should be the focus, and was she this little girl, the victim, treated as Christ would have us treat her??

“he who has the most money, and power, tends to dominate “telling their side””
++++++++++++++++++++++

it is infinitely more than this. it goes something like,

Matt Chandler and The Village Church leadership purport to have authority from God, to be God’s man / God’s men, God’s anointed. people believe it.

As such, they will be targets for spiritual attack. Satan must not be allowed to come against this man and this church. We must stand up for them and side with them and shield them.

and that is how Matt Chandler and The Village Church will escape any consequences at all in Evangelicalism.

these beliefs (which have been cultivated by those in power) are influencing the thoughts, feelings, and actions of individuals & groups in the SBC and the greater evangelical community.

of course, this is merely the spiritualized cover for this:

Matt Chandler and The Village Church have money and power which supplies the SBC and many other evangelical enterprises with power and money of their own.

The Bragg Family on one side, Matt Chandler/the Village Church/the SBC/the Dallas christian community/Evangelical word on the other — the power imbalance is astronomical.

As i see it, God/Jesus/Holy Spirit themselves are being exploited in order to exploit the Bragg family for the purposes of protecting power and money.

Benn,

I imagine the fact that a woman is the toughest, strongest person in a room won’t be mentioned. too threatening.

Bridget: Every lawyer is going to tell them to keep their mouth shut and not talk to anyone, which includes the victims. Pro institution and anti Christlike behavior . . .

I mean, I kind of think they would be better off talking to a PR person, not a lawyer. The Tylenol poisoning case is famous precisely because they were upfront with the public, and took financial hits to protect the public and in the process protected themselves. Chandler and Co would be helping everybody to look closer at that sort of crisis management approach.

The moral choices are clear, of course, but they don’t care about those.

elastigirl:
Benn,

I imagine the fact that a woman is the toughest, strongest person in a room won’t be mentioned.too threatening.

Maybe, we will see how THAT is handled……….

ishy,

ishy:

I do think the New Cals are headed toward a hierarchy-based denomination. I think that’s part of their plan–to remove autonomy from SBC churches.

I think their ultimate goal is theocracy, in which they will eliminate the autonomy of all people and establish ‘the kingdom of God’ on earth. It is perhaps a small minority who actively embrace this agenda, but my Calvi-pastor was one of them. He only openly acknowledged it, and gave me materials, when he thought – mistakenly – that I would be on board with such an agenda. It is being pursued very much under the radar. Think Neo-calvinist takeover on steroids.

DEE,

If you are still at SBC-Birmingham, here’s a souvenir to look for at the SBTS exhibit (perhaps they still have some on hand):

https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/get-your-al-mohler-bobblehead.48458/

elastigirl: Did Matt Chandler lie? i believe Ms Bragg.
“The Village disputed the Times article’s characterization of how the Braggs were treated, saying for instance that Matt Chandler, the lead pastor, spoke with Ms. Bragg in September, at a group meeting with many other families.

On Tuesday, Ms. Bragg said that was “simply not true,” and that the family had never met personally with Mr. Chandler since her daughter’s disclosure. Ms. Bragg said another top pastor explained to her the night of the group meeting that Mr. Chandler would not talk with her then because he did not want to draw attention to them.”

I too believe Ms. bragg. Chandlers CYA answer sounds like he was in the room talking to lots of people and he’s trying to count that a personal conversation. This is way too sensitive for that to have been a group conversation! So if he didn’t have a one on one, they didn’t talk.

elastigirl: Beth Moore just needs to interrupt & say, “JD, Russell, I’m not going to sit here like a christmas tree ornament. Unless that is why you’ve asked me here, i’d like the mic now.”

Oh, but if she did that, all the young reformers in the room might turn their backs to her! They actually did that to Anne Graham Lotz when she was invited to speak at a pastors conference several years ago.

Max,

“Oh, but if she did that, all the young reformers in the room might turn their backs to her!”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

then let them show the world what emotional 12-year olds they really are. how delightful that would be.

she doesn’t need them or their smug entitled faces.

beth moore has more clout and power than they do. it’s time she fully exercised it, for the sake of half the world and all their supporters. for the sake of what’s right.

Max,

“They will invite her back to speak again and will continue to send their wimmenfolk to her conferences/simulcasts and allow them to buy her books. A lot is at stake here for Ms. Moore … will she be honest to her real convictions or simply hold to the party line? The Christian Industrial Complex is a complex beast indeed for those who benefit from it.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

She doesn’t need them. i suspect there’s enough critical mass for a Beth Moore Industrial Complex.

so yes, the question is will she be honest to her real convictions? (on more than just women preaching)

Max: Oh, but if she did that, all the young reformers in the room might turn their backs to her!

As Our Father Below righteously did to The Enemy, at least according to Screwtape?

Lea: Having somebody sign a piece of paper saying they’ll be awesome is not a ‘screening process’. People lie. Especially people who want access to children. Sheesh.

Just the Dunning-Kruger Effect (the more incompetent you are, the more Awesome you are in your own mind) would put the lie to that sort of “screening process”.

TS00: I think their ultimate goal is theocracy, in which they will eliminate the autonomy of all people and establish ‘the kingdom of God’ on earth.

Like the Taliban and the Caliphate of ISIS did with Islam.
See The Handmaid’s Tale for details.

Jeffrey Chalmers:
elastigirl,

And a little girl was sacrificed on their alter…

Baal-Moloch is well-fed, and will give his Faithful what they want in exchange.

Ray: Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati – PossumLodge

Possum Lodge or E Clampus Vitus?

Lea: As for the rest of the letter, they appear to have reported to the police and encouraged that. I’m glad they did that much. They say they supported the family, but the family clearly doesn’t FEEL supported. Impact matters here. Chandler himself was clearly happy to delegate this to whoever and that’s bad leadership when you run a church. If you can’t be bothered to drive a few miles to meet personally with someone, maybe you shouldn’t have ‘campuses’.

Yes! Thanks Lea, I agree.

TS00: I think their ultimate goal is theocracy, in which they will eliminate the autonomy of all people and establish ‘the kingdom of God’ on earth. It is perhaps a small minority who actively embrace this agenda, but my Calvi-pastor was one of them.

I had a suspicion that might be the case, but never any solid evidence. The New Cals I knew fairly well were all wannabe pastors that weren’t in the inner circle. I’ve watched Mohler and Moore try their hand at politics and wondered if there was an angle there. They shout about hierarchy from the rooftops, though, so I always thought removing autonomy was inevitable.

The only other suspicions came from watching The Handmaid’s Tale…

elastigirl: she doesn’t need them or their smug entitled faces.
beth moore has more clout and power than they do.

Absolutely she does. I think she’s flexed a bit, and I hope she does it all the way.

Lea: I’m betting Brian didn’t do anything terribly useful or pastoral, but that’s just a guess.

I’m betting their idea of “pastoral care” had more to do with reminding them of the covenant and not to sue than anything we’d consider pastoral care.

Nathan Priddis: she would be contained by the overwhelming opponents that would emerge

They would first apply pressure on her sweet deal with LifeWay.

Max:

If Ms. Moore holds to the New Calvinist complementarian narrative by falling short of stating that she really believes in her heart of hearts that it is OK for women to preach the Gospel … then the SBC boys win. They will invite her back to speak again and will continue to send their wimmenfolk to her conferences/simulcasts and allow them to buy her books. A lot is at stake here for Ms. Moore … will she be honest to her real convictions or simply hold to the party line? The Christian Industrial Complex is a complex beast indeed for those who benefit from it.

Agreed. I have trouble respecting her, as she has played along, and benefited most profitably, all these years. Had she spoken for egalitarianism she would have been dropped like a hot potato, and she knew it.

Will she continue to allow herself to be used, as a token ‘woman’? Or will she repudiate all that these men falsely teach, and to which she has meekly submitted all these years?

elastigirl,

Would you stop bringing up that beautiful cake? Dang it, I just got over my cravings!

Headless Unicorn Guy: Baal-Moloch is well-fed, and will give his Faithful what they want in exchange.

SBC’s Baptist Press just ran an article that mentioned Baal/Moloch. Was not about about abuse though, but warning that Google searching was dangerous (examples given were looking into infertility treatments or for XXX photos), Apparently you’re bowing before the screen making petitions which is idolatry?

http://bpnews.net/53075/firstperson-praying-to-alexa

Ranks up there with the article they published by Dorothy Patterson’s sister-in-law saying what a blessing her Spanx were.

elastigirl: well, if this isn’t a fine description of the sequestered bubble he lives in then paint me red and call me santa claus.

Pretty much sums up the fundagelical bubble I once lived within. I live near a very liberal city, and all of my church friends avoided it like the plague. I’m not saying use it as an excuse to go bar-hopping, but if you’re afraid to go where real people have real needs – what good are ya?

TS00: Had she spoken for egalitarianism she would have been dropped like a hot potato, and she knew it.

Yep, she saw what happened to Anne Graham Lotz when she held her ground. Most of the organized church is still trying to annihilate her through an ole boy network of unspiritual church leaders.

R McPherson: I don’t know what he means by the “fog of war”

Chandler thinks he is in a spiritual war – that the devil is coming against him in his ministry – that he is battling an evil spiritual realm in a “fog of war.” Scripture says that which comes against the church falls in one of three categories: the flesh, the world, and the devil. Chandler is not scaring the devil much with his ministry style; thus, the flesh and the world have been tripping him up (IMHO).

elastigirl,
On Beth Moore: The hand that gives is the hand above.

I predict the death of 10000 paper cuts if she does not back away from her critical statements.

About my accuracy in predictions:
I do have a history of over predicting. Usually it’s because my predictions do not foresee additional factors that come into play.

During the 2016 Cleveland Convention I predicted an Evangelical Long Knife event. Senator Cruz and spouse left the convention floor in the face of overwhelming hostility. I predicted non-conforming pastors would be turned on, following the election.

I did not factor in a near 100% collapse in pastoral opposition to the President outside of minority and progressive churches.

But about the time to admit I was wrong, I notice Macdonald and Chandler recieving criticism in leading Evangelical news outlets.
From memory, they where the only unrepentant Presidential critics.
Hybels was not a critic, but was not ideologically pure.

So, I was wrong, but the final tally is not in yet.

__

No Hope’s Angel: “Crisis SBC Victim Management Instead, Perhaps?”

hmmm…

“A constitutional amendment, which states that churches that mishandle abuse are not qualified for SBC membership, will need to pass a second time at the SBC’s annual meeting next year before it is official” ?

huh?

“Outside of Legacy Arena, survivors of sexual abuse and victim’s advocates were dubious…”

bump.

The SBC churches apparently will be getting a new coat of white paint.

What?

SBC abusive church ousting, TBD?

SKreeeeeeeeeeeetch!

Proverbial ‘actions’ following…words?

KRunch!

Rachael Denhollander, please don’t let them take you for a ride.

(sadface)

Sòpy

—
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/SBC-passes-sex-abuse-reforms-acknowledges-more-13969968.php#photo-17661638

https://projects.houstonchronicle.com/2019/southern-baptist-abuse/#/

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Sexual-abuse-discussions-dominate-first-hours-of-13968827.php

;~)§

– –

BD:
Guest,

Did he cancel his sabbatical and immediately flew back to arrange a private meeting with the Bragg family first or did he flew back to speak at a panel defending TVC first?

Does not sound like a brain tumor issue to me. Why does he not practice Matt 18 in this situation?

Chandler was diagnosed with a anaplastic oligodendroglioma (brain tumour) in 2009.
He had surgery etc., and claims God healed him, but I wondered during and since the Hinkley disclosure whether the tumour was in an area of his brain that affects his judgement. He was initially told he had about three years, surgery can buy patients some time. The long term outcome isn’t great; 10 – 12 years for a recurrence.
Not defending his behavior, beliefs, poor communication or poor responses to victims, just wondering if along with theological, social and structural problems with the Village Church if his tumour is one of many factors contributing to their failures.

elastigirl,

No good . . . but brussel sprouts might do it . . . love ’em!

__

“Abuse Of Faith”

hmmm…

With mission board officials not addressing any abuse issues during their scheduled address to messengers on Tuesday, Wade Burleson’s motion was not even allowed to move forward, a decision he later said was “stunning” and “tone-deaf.”

huh?

20 years, 700 victims: Southern Baptist sexual abuse spreads as leaders resist reforms?

Q. What are they waiting for?

The painters?

—
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/article/Southern-Baptist-sexual-abuse-spreads-as-leaders-13588038.php

;~)§

– –

Nathan Priddis,

“On Beth Moore: The hand that gives is the hand above.

I predict the death of 10000 paper cuts if she does not back away from her critical statements.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ok, Nate, now’z your big chance!

Please plainly say whether or not you mean God will be giving the death of 10000 cuts, whether personally or through an ordained ‘authority’ or other ordained party.

Patrice,

Doug Stanley is listed as Sr. Dir. on their website. His previous job was as a business consultant. ???? I can’t put my finger on it.

My guess, what these nonprofit religious corporations (NPRC), they are not houses of faith, don’t get is that victims do want some sort of public acknowledgement from the NPRC. Keeping it quiet is still victimizing the victim. The pedophile forced them to keep it secret. The NPRC is forcing them to do it again.

Speaking for myself, I never got the public apology, but when my molester died when I was in my 20’s did the same thing for me somewhat.

If I’m wrong on my guess, please let me know. 🙂

Lea,

“I doubt she would have trouble finding a publisher, if she needed one.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++

she could form her own publishing house. publishing her own things, those of others.

(i’m no customer, but there are millions of others)

to be frank, the intolerable nuissance factor with SBC men who control everything was a foregone conclusion.

elastigirl: she could form her own publishing house.

True. I don’t read her stuff or anything, I just think there are people who LOVE her and she’ll be great. This also seems to provoke people who love to hate her, which I don’t like.

Also, I think she and others like her do a lot of conferences and stuff?

ishy,

well, crickets of all kinds to their bedrooms and bodies, then.

elastigirl: it’s several decades past time for Beth and christian women to disassociate from mean christian boys.

I did it years ago, and it’s one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.

No authority but Christ.

Lea,

I will happily applaud if she comes out against all of the restraints that she has so far operated under with nothing but an occasional, veiled murmur. I am one who once held many opinions of which I am now ashamed and completely reject, so I certainly do not discount changes of opinion. However, her past stance is publicly well known, so it would be necessary to make a clear and public disclaimer of what she once accepted. The stakes are too high and have become too public to pretend otherwise.

If her popularity falls, she can still hold her head up high for doing the right thing. And if she was never in it for the fame and money, she will be willing to exchange it for another worthy ministry, of which she is imminently capable.

elastigirl: well, if this isn’t a fine description of the sequestered bubble he lives in then paint me red and call me santa claus.

hasn’t clue what to do in a fallen world…. well, actually, i’m not surprised.

Agree. He’s either stupid or playing stupid. His statement only confirms he shouldn’t be leading anything.

Samuel Conner,

Isn’t focus on the pastor and less on the Scriptures one of the first steps towards a cult?

Jeffrey Chalmers:
ishy,

Humm… pastoral care in this situation..
1. The victim should be told by the top dog of the church that what happened to her is a felony, and given it was an adult at a church camp, one of the most depraved acts that could be done to her.
2.The victim should be told it was NOT her fault…..total failure of perp, AND the camp leadership that something so depraved could ever happen at a church camp
3.The victim should never have to see the perps face again…, unless it with the police prosecuting the perp for the evil he inflicted on her.
4. The church/camp should pay for professional therapy by trained, leaf ally certified therapist…. nit the bogus stuff that some churches are doing….
5.I could go on, but it is not hard to come up with these action items…. gee, maybe I could be a MEGA Preacher…..

You’d do a better job than MC.

Brian:
Samuel Conner,

Isn’t focus on the pastor and less on the Scriptures one of the first steps towards a cult?

Often, but not always.
In my experience, SCRIPTURE(TM) plus Groupthink can do a pretty good job of functioning as a Cult Leader.
Especially when Christian define CULT(TM) by Theology/Doctrine instead of abusive behavior.

Muff Potter: Hell no.

HA! Good.

bendeni: But doesn’t it seem obvious that you should also immediately, without any delay, share the when-where-what with parents using every conceivable communication path available to you?

I think this is a good place to consult with experts, actually, because you probably don’t want parents freaking out, going home and scaring their kids either. There is probably some protocol for informing people, aided by counselors? Someone could possibly speak to this.

I don’t think you’d want to tell people to write letters of support and obscure the reason for firing someone though.

elastigirl:
are we making it uncomfortable for TWW men to comment today?

to be clear, i greatly admire and respect the men who comment here at TWW.for your mutual respectfulness, support, wisdom, honesty, vulnerability, sense of humor…

I’m just so uncomfortable. This is just so, sniff, hard. I feel like such a victim! That’s my Matt Chandler impersonation from yesterday. : )

TS00: I will happily applaud if she comes out against all of the restraints that she has so far operated under with nothing but an occasional, veiled murmur.

In the past, Beth Moore has published comments that all non-Christians are servants of the devil—not a standard conservative Christian viewpoint. I’m sorry I cannot find the reference right now. Does anyone know her current views on Judaism, or on what is required for salvation?

JDV,

“And how many times has Chandler let “other pastors” at TVC run point…”
+++++++++++++++

ok, this “run point”, “running point” thing….. is this churchspeak?

i mean it borders on free association. he might as well have said “a beach ball, a dog, a frog……a log, a poodle, a noodle, a doodle….”

Friend,

I don’t follow any of the celebs, or read their books, but I have seen an occasional post on things she has allegedly said that raised an eyebrow. For me, it was always, ‘Beth who?’ I didn’t even know what she looked like. Kind of like Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald, until things got really crazy with them. I just don’t move in the mass media or christian media world much. Gave up CT and World Mag years ago.

bendeni: Maybe it’s not wise to name the alleged perp immediately.

Eric Justin Toth was fired on the spot from a private church-related school in DC, after indecent images of young children were found on his camera. He was escorted from the grounds and given a tiny amount of leeway by police. Toth drove to Minnesota, faked a suicide, flew to Nicaragua, changed his appearance, and lived under an alias with false documents until a sharp-eyed tourist spotted him five years later. He is now serving 25 years, thanks to the school’s decision to publicize allegations early on, news stories, “America’s Most Wanted,” the FBI, and Nicaraguan authorities.

This sicko spent his life zealously seeking access to small boys and producing lewd images of them. He worked as a nanny and tutor.

When evidence is credible, don’t give suspects the benefit of the doubt, a second, or an inch.

Lea: I think this is a good place to consult with experts, actually, because you probably don’t want parents freaking out, going home and scaring their kids either. There is probably some protocol for informing people, aided by counselors? Someone could possibly speak to this.

In terms of how to communicate it, what words to say, what to recommend the parents do, etc. — absolutely! Having counselors standing by? Sure! I’d welcome expert opinion here. The church should have a policy and procedures in place ready to go, informed by the best wisdom available, so they aren’t caught by surprise (and don’t “wing it”). They should be helping the parents decide what best to do, and how.

What I’m trying to speak to is the timing. Unless the church isn’t going to inform the parents at all (which I can’t imagine), I’m saying they should be told as soon as the church is told. I can’t see any significant benefit to waiting, whereas I can see lots of potential harm. I can’t imagine being a parent and being told by my church leaders: “Yes, we knew about this two months ago, but you know, we needed time to be able to see through the ‘fog of war’.”

I hope it goes without saying that the alleged perp needs to be removed from access to kids immediately also. In all these things, wouldn’t we be showing that the priority is the victims (and preventing harm to potential other victims)?

bendeni:Unless the church isn’t going to inform the parents at all (which I can’t imagine)

Silence has been the norm until recent decades. See, for example, the Roman Catholic Church, as well as the Protestant congregation I grew up in.

Schools (religious and otherwise) have a general approach that churches can adapt. A letter and/or email to all families, counselors on the premises, meetings with parents, assemblies to cover whatever is appropriate for the children to know. If the person is a public danger, sometimes there is a press release and/or a news conference to show coordination with the police.

Parental upset and publicity can be a nightmare for an affected school, but it’s the only way to protect children and start recovery.

Everyone:

I have one very important comment to make.

Have you all noticed that in the pictures of Matt Chandler and friend for Texas Craft Steaks, that the cattle are Photoshopped in?

Beth Moore has been scratched from the panel on the value of Women….?.?.?
No explanation why she is not on stage as I type

You’ve got to be kidding. Sounds like satire – ‘We have decided that there is no value to having a woman speak on the value of women.’

Stan,

Romney in his last presidential campaign sat on a taxidermist stuffed horse for campaign photographs.

Stan: Have you all noticed that in the pictures of Matt Chandler and friend for Texas Craft Steaks, that the cattle are Photoshopped in?

So that explains it! I thought he was using those new hoofless cattle. They do seem partial to grazing by the lawn sprinkler…

https://www.texascraftsteaks.com/pages/about-us

elastigirl:
Muff Potter,
Law Prof,

so you don’t feel “thin and exhausted”, then.

i feel ‘liberty and justice for all’ welling up more right now — and it’s plain giddy-making.(certainly miles to go, for all those in the margins).

just don’t want to alienate friends in the midst of it.

Narcissists in the pulpit of megas make me feel thin and exhausted.

Honestly….I am really tired of the institutional church and especially the megachurches and celebrity pastors. The whole evangelical machine is absolutely sickening to me. All of these guys making money in the name of Jesus. Just think of all that money lining the pockets of these organizations. What if that money was used to actually feed the poor and provide drinking water to those who need it? I need a church break to think about this whole corrupt system.

Law Prof: Jonathan: Look in mirror.Check your own heart.Wake up.Stop being a fool.

Right? That comment was exceptionally stupid.

I think a lot of these guys feel like if they just say the words they can shut everybody up with…shame? Idk. It’s like when the move the curtain on the wizard of oz. once you see the truck, it doesn’t work anymore.

Lea: Right? That comment was exceptionally stupid.

I think a lot of these guys feel like if they just say the words they can shut everybody up with…shame? Idk. It’s like when the move the curtain on the wizard of oz. once you see the truck, it doesn’t work anymore.

That’s what they’re used to. When they have people under their thumbs, terrified of them because they’ve bought into the system and are afraid of being thrown out of the “best gospelly church around” or losing their friends and family or their reputations, all the abusers and their enablers have to do is drop a few code words and people cower.

So they get used to it, come to believe their own hype and power, very much like Rabadash the Ridiculous in Narnia, and when they try it here, they get laughed at because no one is afraid of them. If you fear the Lord and don’t owe a whit to anyone’s system, these paltry little fakes are absurd, squeaking little things.

Benn: Beth withdrew because she didn’t want to be a distraction

Doesn’t ring clear. There’s more to this story.

Law Prof,

Mormonism is structured the same way.

Benn: Said Beth withdrew because she didn’t want to be a distraction .

Nah, she came up against a man-wall at SBC … as evidenced by her tweet today:

“Relentless overemphasis on biblical manhood and womanhood – the constant pounding – will inevitably, inadvertently cause us to attend more carefully to carrying our genders than carrying our crosses. Whether you’re male OR female, deny yourself, pick up your cross & follow Jesus.”

Stan: Have you all noticed that in the pictures of Matt Chandler and friend for Texas Craft Steaks, that the cattle are Photoshopped in?

Fits with the New Calvinist model … deception.

Law Prof: I’m immediately suspecting they’re a 100% fraud. Chandler fits squarely within this category

Chandler’s interview with John Piper provides some insight into what makes him tick. Part 3 of the interview on “Calvinism and Sexual Complementarity” is particularly revealing, regarding how he views female believers (“our girls” as he calls them).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKEpVzHnUw0&t=744s

Benn: So is she trying to be an agent of change, or riding the wave to see how close to the top of the complementarian pyramid she can climb?

Remains to be seen. No doubt that she has used the comp position to her advantage with LifeWay and SBC’s New Calvinist movement, as a speak-only-to-women celebrity – she is a multi-millionaire, living in a mansion in Texas. She may be in a position now to venture out more bravely and let the ole boys have it!

TS00: I would appreciate any telling quotes.

This ought to be enough for you: “I preach to men.”

Nathan Priddis,

sigh
.
.
.
.
alright
.
.
you didn’t answer my question. not one bit, not one tiny SHRED.
.
but i’m in a generous mood, so i’m giving you yet another chance. i’ll make it easy for you. it is a yes or no question, so you’ll have no cartoon characters to work with.
.
do you believe in the power of prayer?

Just watched the B21 interview with Chandler. What really struck me was his comment about Tonne having been involved in children’s ministry for 13 years. Think about that. It would not be near enough to simply warn people who were at the camp. Every single family whose child he may have had contact with needed to have clear warning of the potential that this abuse could have been happening elsewhere. All who attended, members or non-members needed to be warned, and given guidance on how to address this and ensure that their kids were not harmed.

Chandler is either willfully disingenuous, or clueless and needs to find a new job. He does not understand the seriousness of the problem, nor the extent of his responsibility to care for the safety and well-being of all of his church.

Btw, social media (Tonne’s wife on Facebook, among others) reports that the alleged culprit, Tonne, moved on and began working with children at a nearby church. It is highly unlikely that Chandler did not know about this. Did he warn the other church of the allegations?

I’m not foolish enough to believe that churches can eliminate all risks of danger to churchgoers. But they have a responsibility to be open and honest about situations, however embarrassing, that may have put attenders in harm’s way. I don’t care whether or not Chandler is personally in charge of running such a care program. He should not be expected to be the point man for everything, but he is certainly responsible for making sure such a program exists and is serving the congregation well.

TS00: Looks like Lea already made this point.

I was quoting Lea in my reply. We’re on the same page. 😉

Max: she is a multi-millionaire, living in a mansion in Texas. She may be in a position now to venture out more bravely and let the ole boys have it!

If she’s underwater and awash in a sea of debt, a big mansion in an exclusive zip-code don’t mean squat.

Frills, baubles, bangles, and prestige, often beyond what can be realistically sustained is now the American way, regardless of income bracket.

Very few Americans are financially solvent.

elastigirl,

Why?

Now it’s your turn to make no sense.

R McPherson: “We have got to get Christian outside help that helps us understand what to do in a fallen world.”

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

Is Jiminy Cricket available?

elastigirl: As i see it, God/Jesus/Holy Spirit themselves are being exploited in order to exploit the Bragg family for the purposes of protecting power and money.

“…And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”

Jonathan: Dee, I appreciate much of your work. But this entry seethes with bitterness and cynicism that interprets everything in the worst possible light. Could you take some time with our Father to check the state of your heart?

Creepy much?

Think I need to go wash my brain after reading this comment.

TS00: I’m not foolish enough to believe that churches can eliminate all risks of danger to churchgoers. But they have a responsibility to be open and honest about situations, however embarrassing, that may have put attenders in harm’s way. I don’t care whether or not Chandler is personally in charge of running such a care program. He should not be expected to be the point man for everything, but he is certainly responsible for making sure such a program exists and is serving the congregation well.

I was taught in corporate America that accountability always floats up. Chandler is ultimately accountable for everything at TVC – he is responsible to assure checks and balances in the system to detect and prevent child abuse and to personally respond to the cries of victims. Ministering in this manner comes with the territory, not just the perks. I realize managing “mega” can be challenging, but there are some things a “Lead Pastor” just shouldn’t delegate.

ishy: This is a key indicator of a predator. He went straight to do something the police told him not to do.

Agreed. If someone was innocent but in real danger of going to jail you would think they would stay very clearly away. Predator behavior. What are the odds he hasn’t done this before or since? I would say slim to none.

“The church claimed it couldn’t have been one of their employees because, because according to one pastor “leaders followed the church’s moral code, enshrined in the membership covenant.”” (Dee)

I suspect that Hybels had such a moral code enshrined at Willow Creek, and MacDonald at Harvest, and Driscoll at Mars Hill, etc. etc. Moral codes drafted by men are broken by other men all the time, even by trusted church leaders. A membership covenant doesn’t scare the devil out of anyone! They are used by church leaders to intimidate, manipulate, and dominate church members, not each other. DO NOT sign them, folks!! The only covenant you need to enter into as a believer is the one written in red by Christ.

ishy: It’s in the present tense, about a children’s minister who worked there for 11 years. Not one mention that this person had prior access to almost every child at TVC.

Indeed. Weasel Words I would say. “Have” access, not HAD.

Chandler is lying with truth.

Lea: Indeed. Weasel Words I would say. “Have” access, not HAD.

Chandler is lying with truth.

Yes, it was a lie. No doubt. It’s the kind we’ve all told before, the worst kind, the half truth. I hope, of course, that none of us have ever told this kind of lie when it sacrifices the well-being of children who might need psychological help and counseling because they were harmed by this man, but their parents are misled into thinking it couldn’t have happened because of Chandler’s sincere-sounding words using his best preacher voice.

In other contexts, this sort of half truth actually can give rise to legal liability, it’s called “false lights publication.” In this context, it’s mainly just evil for Chandler to do it, and a sign that he is a horrifically corrupt human being who cares a whole lot more about his institution, his reputation, and his power within that institution that he does about children who may have been harmed and their parents who may need to be alerted to this fact.

Matt Chandler did something evil, and he is giving every indication that he does not care.

Law Prof: There is power in prayer, but you’re right, it’s not “magical” power.

Worth repeating.

Max: Half-truth is not Truth.

I mean, I thought I made that clear by saying he was ‘LYING with truth’…

Benn: Said Beth withdrew because she didn’t want to be a distraction

A distraction to who, what? Dud she say that, or did the powers to be say that? I’m not listening to these men telling women how to “be.”

Max,

“DO NOT sign them, folks!!”

DO NOT go there, folks!!”

Bridget: I’m not listening to these men telling women how to “be.”

A bigtime mood.

TS00: I’m not foolish enough to believe that churches can eliminate all risks of danger to churchgoers. But they have a responsibility to be open and honest about situations, however embarrassing, that may have put attenders in harm’s way.

I don’t believe that fail-safe perfection is possible either, but at least have the protocols and ‘firewalls’ in place that the secular world uses to guard against child sex predators.

Wade Burleson worked tirelessly in this regard, but the SBC big-whigs would have none of it.

Benn: That she withdrew because she didn’t want her being on the panel to be a distraction.

This is actually somewhat in character for her from everything I’ve seen. She often retracts from things on Twitter when they get really heated, even when the bullies keep going.

And it may very well be that if there were other survivors on the panel she wanted their voices to be heard. I didn’t see a list of people for that panel, so not sure who else was on it.

Oh, and Dee posted this on Twitter:

“Today, JD Greear and the SBC asked sex abuse victims to stand up and be prayed for in their convention hall. Seriously? What has the SBC ever done to encourage anyone to come forward and do this? For example, was Ministry Safe present, taking names of this who stood?”

https://twitter.com/wartwatch/status/1138934560090218497

Ishy: asked sex abuse victims to stand up and be prayed

I hope (but doubt) there was recognition that you would probably have to be pretty far into recovery to actually want to do that so publically? I would personally recoil.

Benn: I actually think JD handled this well

Read the tweet thread dee started. A lot of victims who were there were furious.

ishy: Read the tweet thread dee started. A lot of victims who were there were furious.

I understand, I can’t even think about what a victim goes through in all of this.
I am sure he will be second and third guessed on what he tried to do, and I do respect what a victim says about how they viewed the event, because I was not ready emotionally to see and hear what I heard.

Max: A smooth character.Beware of appearances.The New Calvinists want to appear to be taking the high road on this … but only after they were forced to by outside pressure.

Max, I’ll be your huckleberry on this,
Only time will tell if he ( JD) and larger the SBC is in fact sincere and transparent on the abuse question.
We will all see if they are making serious changes.
They ( the messengers to the convention ) approved an amendment to a resolution that removed a male from a committee and added another female, ( and I believe she is a victim or an expert on abuse) and by removing a male and adding an additional female, would make it the only committee in SBC history to have a female majority on a committee)

I know that is laughable to most, but it is a start….

Max: A man of God could have handled this better, rather than a preacher-boy.

Well, and they should have consulted an abuse expert that isn’t affiliated with Ministry Safe. Their biggest problem is that they think they can deal with this all themselves in the way they think is right. At least they put some survivors on the committee, but I can’t help but wonder if that was really against the wishes of the dudebros, and the dudebros just got outvoted by decent, small church Southern Baptists.

Benn: There were quit a few victims that stood, I was numb to see that many women and men stand.
It was hard to process.

Let’s hope everyone there took in the power of quiet dignified refusal to be ignored.

dee,

As it’s said in these parts, all hat and no cattle. Literally.

A recent commenter on Dreher’s article made a good point. A “beloved” minister reveals himself to be abusing alcohol and suicidal, and the thing to do is fire him and let him go to another church?

Benn,

Only a panel of experts and survivors will get results. Let the SBC read the findings and make their decision. Everything else would be manipulation of the process.

Brian: It’s a trust issue. If someone said they were going to help them then didn’t in the past, JD doing a public prayer will not comfort them. Actions, not words, by JD and the SBC will only do that.

“Little children (believers, dear ones), let us not love [merely in theory] with word or with tongue [giving lip service to compassion], but in action and in truth [in practice and in sincerity, because practical acts of love are more than words]” (1 John 3:18 AMP)

A good example of words without action is SBC’s 2013 resolution “On Sexual Abuse of Children” which called for SBC leaders to be careful affiliating with ministers and ministries which had not protected children from abuse.
The drafters of that resolution had Al Mohler and C.J. Mahaney/SGM in mind … yet, Mohler rejected those words with no follow-up action (until the Houston Chronicle shed light on his failures some 6 years later). The watchbloggers and media need to hold SBC’s feet to the fire to put actions to their words; their leaders don’t have a good track history in this regard. Southern Baptists resolve to do things better at their annual meetings, then go back home to business as usual. “You shall know them by their love” … will we?

Ishy: Matt Chandler … doesn’t think non members should have access to “family business”

There is only one true Church, only one genuine family. The Body of Christ both inside and outside TVC should be free to correct and rebuke church leaders who fail to protect all members of the family of God.

Max,

One of the parents whose child was at that camp said they didn’t receive much “care” either. I don’t think there was any care. He’s just telling people to shut up and mind their own business because it’s causing him problems that he can’t control.

ishy,

And just yesterday in that panel he was insisting that it was a “serious problem” and he didn’t want anyone to think it shouldn’t be addressed.

Once again. Liar.

Ishy:
On Twitter:

From @BiblicalJustice:

“Today Matt Chandler confirmed he looks at membership as access to elevated care and he doesnt think non members should have access to “family business” with regards to Moral Failures by Youth Pastors…

God called.. He asked me to tell you YOU’RE FIRED!

https://t.co/3luNu7mfig”

https://twitter.com/BiblicalJustice/status/1138536731093942274

That is disgusting! Matt Chandler is saying that it is ok to pass the youth pastor on to places where he might abuse again, because not my member not my care!? He is morally bankrupt(.)

Benn,

Thank you for the reply. Not sure if I’m believing it.

Lea: This is not about moral failures, it is not about gossip, it is about DANGER TO CHILDREN. He needs to think in terms of stakeholders, which includes anyone, member or not, who has children who might interact with this man.

I wonder if Law Prof can chime in, but his response is basically that only covenant members deserve protection, even though non-members came to the camp and I’m sure come to the church on a regular basis. That seems like grounds for a lawsuit….

Lea: Does TVC own the camp? It seems the camp should be notifying everyone at camp that year at a bare minimum…the church should be notifying everyone who has been involved in kid related activities with this man to the best of their abilities.

They only notified the parents of the girls in that one cabin, as far as I’ve seen from the articles. And the rest of the church only found out last week from the Times expose that it was the children’s pastor, I guess, unless some of those girls’ parents told a few people (which they were not supposed to). The only notice was that one I posted above that only spoke in the present and implied to me that they wanted people to think it was a temporary camp staffer.

There’s been a few parents in the Twitter threads who are very angry to just find all this out, and I don’t blame them.

The info from No Eden Elsewhere’s article was simply that Tonne and family were members at Valley Creek and that he was seen at children’s events there. It’s unclear if he’s a volunteer or acting as a parent.

ishy,

Thanks. I hate everything about this.

Here’s something I think we can all pretty much agree on:
Neo-cal fundagelicalism is digging its own grave.

Todd Wilhelm,

Considering it’s from a guy that needs people to sign contracts to stay in his church, Imma say he’s projecting a bit…

Todd Wilhelm,

“you immature little weak coward, you silly pathetic little boy, you narcissistic zero” (Matt Chandler addressing a critic, laughter from congregation follows)

Whew! Chandler has the spirit of Mark Driscoll on him! Who in their right mind goes to a church like this?! But that’s just it isn’t it … his followers are not in their right spiritual mind.

Max:
Todd Wilhelm,

“you immature little weak coward, you silly pathetic little boy, you narcissistic zero”

I would bet the equity in my house against anyone’s Starbuck’s latte that Chandler would blow the top off an NPD test and this “narcissistic zero” lingo is pure projection. That is one disturbed, warped human being to stand in front of a church and go after a critic that way. A very sick man.

Law Prof: he is not only behaving in an evil manner, but in a stupid one as well

As evidenced by the short audio clip Todd Wilhelm just posted, he doesn’t speak with the heart of a shepherd when concerns are raised about him and his ministry:

https://thouarttheman.org/wp-content/uploads/chandler_critics.mp3

The poor lead pastor doesn’t get to play in the church volleyball games, he has to stand on the sidelines:

“The shepherd rarely gets to play in the middle of all the healthy sheep when they are having a BBQ and playing a volleyball game. He’s on the fringes where the wolves and the sheep with rabies are.” (Matt Chandler)

Whew! Good Lord, let him play volleyball with you!

Lea: His thinking on everything related to this topic is BACKWARDS. This is not about moral failures, it is not about gossip, it is about DANGER TO CHILDREN.

But that’s not SPIRITUAL(TM).

ishy: He seems like he’s making one huge mistake after another and heading the way of Driscoll and JMac

He’s trying to hold onto his little kingdom, convinced that he has been called into the world for such a time as this. Church history is littered with others who made that mistake (Driscoll, MacDonald, Hybels, etc. etc.). They all responded the same way when pressed … with hostility (not fruit of the Spirit). But they all had golden parachutes when they finally had to jump … Chandler will be OK.

Regarding New Calvinism: “If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord” (Acts 5:38)

Perhaps we are witnessing the New Calvinist movement collapse one piece after another … the same way it was constructed.

Friend: So he thinks his sheep have rabies? Okay… how does a man respond when 1) an animal 2) has a deadly brain disease 3) that requires it to be killed 4) because it might pass the disease to that man through biting?

Uhhh … I’m sure that is somewhere in the church membership covenant.

Max,

“As evidenced by the short audio clip Todd Wilhelm just posted”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

omg

what a pathetic little boy Matt Chandler is.

the martyr-hero who can’t play volleyball at the bbq

the spoiled 3 year-old with the fragile ego who is outraged that someone should speak a negative word

this week i listened to an interview with Anna Fifield regarding her book “The Great Successor: The Divinely Perfect Destiny of Brilliant Comrade Kim Jong Un”. She described a little of his childhood.

that’s what popped into my mind while listening to the recording.

elastigirl: the martyr-hero who can’t play volleyball at the bbq

Yes. The recording makes clear what a sacrifice he makes by spending time with his rabid sheep. He also said, “A great deal of my week is spent walking through the tragedies, heartaches, and sins of other men and women.” Which sounds almost laudable, except for the self-pity.

Decent pastors—decent Christians—don’t feel sorry for themselves when they visit someone who is dying, or struggling with private pain or sins. I have heard pastors thank a family for inviting them to the hospital. I have heard gracious people say, “Thank you for telling me this.”

Max: “The shepherd rarely gets to play in the middle of all the healthy sheep when they are having a BBQ and playing a volleyball game. He’s on the fringes where the wolves and the sheep with rabies are.” (Matt Chandler)

Translation: the wolves and sheep with rabies are the leaders and attenders of all those pricey conferences that take up so much of his time. This was just his description of his business associates.

elastigirl: are we making it uncomfortable for TWW men to comment today?

Max is still here. Of late, I’ve been “persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed” … I’m hanging with TWW as best I can. Some days my wit and wisdom are not as sharp as other days. As a TWW man, I would like to take some of these “lead pastors” out behind the woodshed … the darn young whippersnappers are running roughshod over the American church.

TS00: this was a menacing message to everyone listening that they had better not mess with him

It’s the macho-man preacher effect that propelled New Calvinism into existence (think Driscoll). I suppose Generations X, Y and Z like the dude-bro approach to ministry, rather than sitting under gentle, humble servants of the Lord who love them. Chandler says “I preach to men” … I guess the TVC churchmen like him spitting fire scaring their families into submission. His approach, with rants like this, is designed to intimidate the crowd into being Christ-followers I suppose (that just doesn’t fit with real-deal Christianity does it?).

Max: Chandler’s hostile sermonette was really designed to send a message to all TVC members “Don’t criticize me, don’t question me, don’t mess with God’s anointed, do what I say not what I do, etc.” It’s the modus operandi of New Calvinist shepherds to manipulate, intimidate, and dominate church members … and the strange thing is that they love it so! (the laughter from the congregation at the end of his tirade is reminiscent of the Andy Savage standing ovation)

They are naive and think they stand on the same side as he is, facing common enemies.

Friend: The recording makes clear what a sacrifice he makes by spending time with his rabid sheep.

I thought he was out there providing a layer of security between the healthy sheep and the rabid.

He probably can’t play volleyball anyway…

Friend,

“Decent pastors—decent Christians—don’t feel sorry for themselves when they visit someone who is dying, or struggling with private pain or sins. I have heard pastors thank a family for inviting them to the hospital. I have heard gracious people say, “Thank you for telling me this.””
+++++++++++++++++

it is an honor.

friends and pastors who have helped my parents in dire health crises (and me and my sibling in caregiving for them) said, “it is an honor”.

what’s wrong with matt chandler.

SiteSeer: Him bringing up a concept of sheep with rabies is disturbing.

It truly is. Note the distinct difference between the Good Shepherd, who came to heal and protect his wandering flock, vs. this attitude of ‘dangerous’ sheep that we might want to eliminate in order to protect the flock. I just did not know how deep the rot in this whole mega church industry went. There is not a true shepherd among them. I am glad it is all being exposed. May people have eyes to see and ears to hear.

elastigirl: all in all, i think it can come across as indicting all men everywhere — that isn’t truly the case. but it’s too much emotional juggling to make this clear.

I find even when I make it very clear that I am criticizing a particular subset I’ve still gotten ‘not all men’ish responses. People need to listen with their ears and not their hackels sometimes.

SiteSeer: I thought he was out there providing a layer of security between the healthy sheep and the rabid.

Chandler complains about “constantly taking sniper-like shots from men and women who disagree with how we do things, sometimes to a level that’s just crazy.”

He was apparently preaching draft sermons on Saturdays, with a way for worshipers to give feedback and help him shore up his writing before Sunday. Or at least that’s how I interpret it. What kind of preacher doesn’t agonize over every word of a sermon? Sure, there’s always room to improve, but the preacher should try to think of the worshipers’ questions. Around 1:20 he says he gets to “tweak my message” for Sunday morning.

Chandler: “I got this real hateful little spiteful email … that said, ‘This sounds like a last-ditch effort of a dying church to entice the next generation to come.'” Chandler then brags about attendance numbers shooting up, and goes on to scream about the email.

I’m sure he was hoping that the sender of the email was sitting right there, squirming.

Lea: What a rude person. Sign your name? When people won’t sign their names it is because it is not safe to do so sometimes.

With a toxic church leader like Chandler ranting and raving from his pulpit, who in their right mind would want to put their John Henry on constructive criticism?! Chandler would most likely pull his/her membership contract and begin the disciplining, shunning, excommunication process … rather than lovingly and prayerfully visiting them to discuss the matter.

Chandler shouts in their face “you silly pathetic little boy, you narcissistic zero” … while Nathan the prophet steps forward to point a finger in the young pastor’s face “You are the man!”

Lea,

“all in all, i think it can come across as indicting all men everywhere — that isn’t truly the case. but it’s too much emotional juggling to make this clear.”

“I find even when I make it very clear that I am criticizing a particular subset I’ve still gotten ‘not all men’ish responses. People need to listen with their ears and not their hackels sometimes.”
+++++++++++++++++

i come across responses like what you describe all the time. honestly, i marvel at the inability to have compassion and empathy, and the lack of imagination.

i want to say, “join us! if you have even one heartstring of compassion or conviction of justice, let it respond and ring out and join us in our anger and celebration. this is a positive. it’s a good thing.”

and i really want to say “stop thinking with your donger and open your eyes to see the big picture.” (although less politely and in all caps, with a growl from the back of my throat)

how much stronger and healthier and productive a society will be when liberty and justice for all includes the least of these. (& there are so many beyond the group women)

years and years of patience is so tiring.

Lily Rose: “…shunning, excommunication process…”. Oh, please do

Whenever I encounter someone who has experienced this at the hands of New Calvinists, I shout “Congratulations!” I then encourage them in the Lord to walk above it. I know it hurts – to be disfellowshipped from your church family – but there’s joy on the other side of grief, freedom on the other side of bondage.

I’ve been excommunicated from a neocalvinist church—and I was an elder!

The way I found about being ousted from the elder team was when hanging out with friends one evening and one suddenly started and looked over at and said “Hey, what are you here with US THIS EVENING? Why aren’t you at the elder’s meeting?” I looked over at him and said “I didn’t get that memo…guess there’s the answer to where I stand in this church.”

Law Prof: I wonder if Jesus were in that congregation, what would He have done? Is it crazy to suggest He might have picked him up by the feet, shook him until the change clattered out of his pockets, then chased him straight into the street at the point of a whip?

“When somebody piously asks you ‘What Would Jesus Do?’, remind them that flipping out and turning over tables is a Biblical option.”

Headless Unicorn Guy: “When somebody piously asks you ‘What Would Jesus Do?’, remind them that flipping out and turning over tables is a Biblical option.”

That’s NOT what they wanna’ hear.

Max: Chandler shouts in their face “you silly pathetic little boy, you narcissistic zero” …

What do you want to bet that Chandler made it up as a way to manipulate?

I was in a church many years ago (before email) where the pastor calmly stated that he is happy to respond to letters, but not to anonymous letters. He made no threats, but he did highlight one letter he received that had only one word written on it in large letters: “Fool.” He said it was the first time he received a letter that only had the signature.

Linn: a good elder team (if they are truly allowed to function as elders) would take him to task over his rant

New Calvinist elder teams are typically yes-men, particularly in the mega churches … usually hand-picked by the pastor. They would never dream of taking the head man to task and the church usually gets in trouble sooner or later (e.g. Driscoll/Mars Hill, MacDonald/Harvest).

Nathan Priddis,

I don’t understand any of the stuff. Not a math guy. Married into it (wife teaches math full time at a small college). I don’t know what HP is exactly. Over head. But I can’t imagine there’s a significant difference between Christians who believe in different conceptions of the universe, because no one has any good notion how Jesus made the universe, just that He made it. Think of that for a minute. This guy who worked in the building trades in the Middle East in a little backwater of the Roman Empire created the universe, all this unbelievably complicated stuff that we can’t even begin to comprehend. Blows my mind. The more we learn about science, the more more pathetic we look and the more unbelievable He looks.

Max,

But he does seem to have time to market high priced steaks?
And, since I am signing my name, I guess I am “not” a narcissistic zero? I did not know it was THAT easy to determine NSD?

Jeffrey Chalmers:
Nathan Priddis,

I think one big difference….many aspects of relativity, and Quantum mechanics, have been, and continue to verified experimentally.From what I know, nit the case for string theory…

That’s (string theory) basically a crater in my understanding if the layout of reality. I say reality because I dont know what words to choose. I understand the Universe to be part (3/3) in the total existance of things.

1.Heaven
2.Firmament- also called Sea
3.Earth- modern man usually says Universe.

If String Theory is mostly factual, then it would lie between 1 and 2. I think.

Nathan Priddis,

So, I just visited the Nobel museum in Stockholm. There was a display about Einstein, and how the Nobel committee did not want to give him a Noble prize because general relativity was not experimentally verified. That obviously encouraged people, to this day, to devise experiments to test it…. we will see with string theory.

Max: “Outside help”?!! This is why you don’t hear New Calvinists talk about the Holy Spirit. They don’t know His presence and power … if they did, they would have all the “Inside Help” they needed. The Holy Spirit operates outside their realm.

But Chandler does have one thing right. Knowing your Bible won’t cut it … you have to ‘know’ Christ and the power of His resurrection. The New Calvinists have subordinated Jesus and excluded the Holy Spirit. Thus, they don’t have enough spiritual power to blow the dust off a peanut! They move in the flesh, not in the Spirit. Jesus and the Holy Spirit don’t hang out with the new reformers much. What a mess!

Perfect, Max. These guys have a religion, not a relationship with the living God. That is the problem. How we must look like the scattered sheep of Israel whose shepherds were devouring them when God stepped in and forever changed the world. And yet he warned that in the last days we would be so deceived . . . I pray that we who are woke can help others to see.

Friend,

I’m so very sorry for what you went through, Friend. I hope you’ve been able to find a lot of healing. For me personally, reading this blog and seeing this community of people who are willing to CALL OUT ABUSERS (and the patriarchal theology that leads to and enables abuse) has been very healing for me. (Yes, I’ve had rather nightmarish experiences in my “church” too. That’s why, although I’ll always be proud to be a born-again Christian, I’ll always be a none and a done when it comes to church. In 99.9% of them, it seems it’s all about promoting or enabling abuse in some form or fashion.)

https://expreacherman.com/

Beth74: I am appalled that J.D. Greear didn’t take ten minutes to come out and greet these survivors.

Too crazy busy at the convention … too big and important … not on the program … already had a survivor script prepared for inside the convention hall (Beth Moore, etc.) … didn’t want to get his $300 sneakers street-dirty … etc.