2

Maybe 4th and please pardon if I am off topic, but I thought your readers would want to be aware of this blog post:

http://www.wadeburleson.org/2018/07/swbts-donors-and-folly-of-funding.html

Ugh. I work right by the new 70 acre lot. They already have a campus no more than a mile or so down the road on Departure.

Why don’t local SBC churches cooperate instead of compete with one another?

Because businesses compete against each other.

Julie Anne,

Corporate entrepreneurship.
Make a buck or two.
Be the “it” church.
Have more fun doing God stuff.
Build a more prestigiou$ social network.
Draw the “in” crowd.

When I was a Religion major at Liberty, I was often hit on by pastoral majors. Because, of course, you can’t be single and be a Baptist pastor. Inevitably, they always had the same pickup line: “I’m going to plant a megachurch.”

I remember one memorable guy who started with, “I’m going to plant a megachurch in Alpharetta, Georgia.” He seemed particularly pleased with himself. I asked him why Alpharetta? He said, and I quote, “It’s an affluent area that’s growing quickly.” I asked him who he was planning to reach? He looked puzzled and said, “The affluent people in that area” like that was a dumb question. So I said, “So you’ll just move people around churches? How will you compete with the five other megachurches in this area?” He got angry and snapped, “How do you know there’s five other megachurches?” I said I was from Alpharetta, and then I named them, including Northpoint. Dude turned around and just took off.

There are a lot of lessons from that, but primarily that many of these church planters are planting their cushy dream job where they will become rich and famous. God is just a tool for them to be that. And being a Christian celebrity has always been lauded in conservative Baptistland, both inside the SBC and out.

Another lesson might be to never brag about planting a megachurch to a missions major…

Jarrett Edwards: If the word Baptist isn’t good enough to put in the name, then they shouldn’t accept Baptist funding, and they shouldn’t attend a Baptist seminary. That is hypocrisy.

Yes! To this I say “amen!” And as you have also pointed out, the SBC’s new president’s church, “Summit” was also ashamed to put “Baptist” in their name. As a Baptist myself, I find that extraordinarily hypocritical!

If church membership is in decline in general then it’s just transferring water to a bigger leaking bucket.

But unlike Lutherans, aren’t SBC churches independent anyway? SBC doesn’t seem to be big on accountability at the leadership level so why would anyone expect loyalty?

Everyone is upset but this is apparently what the membership wants. But with membership contracts and authoritarian leadership the norm at most of these churches, I’m having a hard [time] feeling sympathy for the congregations that are losing out. There are no good guys here.

But why go to a brick & mortar building at all? There’s nothing in a church that I can’t find online. Sermons, music etc…all on YouTube, and I don’t need to dress up or even do it on a Sunday. Look at echurch at TWW.
Retail shopping has already gone down this road. Small local stores to big box to empty.

Why would Summit go to North Raleigh when there are already SBC churches there? What could be their thinking? Well…a few ideas come to mind.

Part 1 of 2

First one must answer some questions about Jesus. Was Jesus poor and did he come from a poor family?

I read something a few years back on this topic, and got interested at the time. If you look at just a whole lot of things in scripture one can come to the conclusion that there is sufficient evidence in scripture to conclude that he was not poor nor did he come from a poor family. What??? Heresy!!!. Well, check it out. Look at what we know about his life and his family and ask yourself who paid for that, and how?

A problem with reading scripture is that for those of us who grew up hearing not just scripture but also interpretations and understandings of scripture when we were way too young to question what we heard somehow have ideas stamped on our thinking which feel like very truth of very truth but which actually may be inaccurate.

Hint: the issue of ‘born in a stable’ is not about poverty but about how to connect Jesus with Bethlehem for purposes of prophecy; and it explains why the relationship with Bethlehem was brief and fleeting. It does not remotely say that Joseph was poor.

So, which of the twelve came from poor families? Before you say ‘fishermen’ remember that somebody’s daddy owned and ran a commercial fishing business.

There are lots more evidences and hint when you start asking the questions.

I say this merely to mention that there are ideas about Jesus and money, about religion and money, about the obtaining and uses of money to accomplish religious tasks, that conflict with some of the fables? about poverty and Jesus.

Jack:
But unlike Lutherans, aren’t SBC churches independent anyway? SBC doesn’t seem to be big on accountability at the leadership level so why would anyone expect loyalty?

The New Calvinists have been eroding church autonomy for some time. They will still say SBC churches are autonomous, but there’s been some major battles between state and local conventions and the national convention over leadership and how much control they have. Many of these churches also have allowed the entities more and more control over things like finances.

Add the deceptive church takeovers yes-men pastors, and I would bet there will be a move to remove local church autonomy not too far in the future. If they believe in removing it from church members, it’s not too far of a stretch that they will restructure the whole SBC.

ishy: The New Calvinists have been eroding church autonomy for some time. They will still say SBC churches are autonomous, but there’s been some major battles between state and local conventions and the national convention over leadership and how much control they have. Many of these churches also have allowed the entities more and more control over things like finances.

Add the deceptive church takeovers yes-men pastors, and I would bet there will be a move to remove local church autonomy not too far in the future. If they believe in removing it from church members, it’s not too far of a stretch that they will restructure the whole SBC.

That’s exactly what is happening when the megas overrun and “partner” with smaller churches! The satellites have little, if any, autonomy.

Max,

Same here.

“Besides seeing new supermarkets appearing on every corner, one trips over a number of covert Reformed Baptist churches with cutesy names like Restore. Just about every strip mall has these start up churches.”

A sampling of cutesy SBC church names in my area: Refuge, Encounter, Mosaic, Discovery, New Wave, LifePointe, LifeQuest, Real Life, The Story, The Bridge … and this one: The Church! There is no clear SBC-affiliation in their church names. You ‘might’ find reference to SBC tucked in a corner of their website, but I suspect that most of the members have no idea they are Southern Baptists (sort of).

One SBC-YRR church planter down the road did an amazing thing. He hung up a church sign with his cutesy name, but under it he painted “A Reformed Southern Baptist Church.” He then explained what “reformed” means on his website, along with who the SBC is. I may not agree with his theology, but I sure appreciate his integrity. Just tell me who you are! You will always know who I am!

Jack,

I really like your comment. Yes, these churches are all a part of the same Neo Reformed Baptist movement. In some of the churches, people don’t even realize they are Baptists!

I have been observing churches for years-long before this blog started. Some people follow the Kardsahians. I have followed church movements. I find some church trends fascinating. So, even though my church will not lose any members to the Summit behemoth, I still think it is interesting and relevant.

Frankly, Greear and the others do not seem to be having an impact on the trend of declining church memberships. Instead they build ridiculously large churches and let people think that they are doing something right. Sadly, they are not impacting declining attendance. They merely take members from one church and say that they are growing. Chandler is obviously doing the same thing.;

As for great, he is a supporter of Mahaney. Look at the books on his website. he recommends two by this man who seriously hurt a bunch of people. Guess that is part of the ethos of the *new and improved* SBC.

Also, you are correct. Churches in the SBCX are autonomous unless they have a woman pastor and they are out. So, the boys can control it if they want to do so. They don’t. The result is a lot of wasted money on church startups. Come for a drive with me someday and let me show you the North Raleigh plethora of churches.

Jack: In our area Lutheran churches are on the ropes. There have been more church closures than new Lutheran church plants. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a new Lutheran church spring up.

Let me ask you a question. Which Lutheran churches are on the ropes? Are the ELCA? I bet they are. I am in the conservative wing of the Lutheran crowd. My church was planted in the late 1990s and is a good sized and vibrant church. Last year we had 90 kids attending confirmation classes.

The seminary affiliated with my synod is now offering to pay for the entire education of new pastors. They then help them find churches who need pastors. In other words, they get employed.

The same thing is happening in the Anglican tradition. Watch the churches with Anglican in their name which are breakaways from the Episcopal church. Again, in my area, there are three such churches and they are doing very well.

If you were to look at the way my sort of Lutheran church runs, and look at the Anglicans that I have mentioned, you will see a trend. One of the things that does not happen is the mega church phenomenon. These churches tend to grow into the 500-600 and they start a new church. Pastors in these churches are not simply podcasts on legs. They actually *pastor.* They know your name. They know your family. They pray for you .

One exception to this is Prince of Peace Lutheran in Dallas which has become a mega church of sorts.They are right across the street from my old church, Bent Tree, and Jack Graham’s Prestonwood. The area was dubbed God’s Green Acres and it takes an army of trafficking cops to handle it on weekends!

Deb,

There are also former pastors looking at jobs in one of these churches. Maybe Greear will pick him up on his way to taking over our portion of the world!!

Samuel Conner: At least among more traditional Reformed, there is also the concept of “plundering the unrighteous”, which is a theological riff on the Exodus account of the Israelites plundering the Egyptians as they were leaving

Plundering the unrighteous? Now this is one I haven’t heard before. Can you point in the right direction? I would absolutely love to write about it.

Dee Parsons,

I don’t know where the reformed are coming from, but when I first mentioned the issue and Proverbs that can be found in Proverbs 13:22 and that is what I heard from the fundamentalists. Entitlement to the money of the unrighteous.

okrapod: I say this merely to mention that there are ideas about Jesus and money, about religion and money, about the obtaining and uses of money to accomplish religious tasks, that conflict with some of the fables? about poverty and Jesus.

You have to remember that the ancient Roman economy was not like modern economies today. It wasn’t modern capitalism as we think of it. The Roman economy had a very few people on top with enormous wealth and the vast majority below who were one personal disaster away from catastrophe. There wasn’t a middle class as we know it today (that’s a creation of the Industrial Revolution). There was very rich and some variety of poor. Moreover, the poor were being pressured from the bottom by the significant percentage of slaves in the economy. It’s hard to compete with someone in a small artisan sense when there’s a slave of a guy who does the same work and doesn’t have to be paid.

For example, Peter and his brother may have owned a boat, they may have been running it for their father as part of a family enterprise. But they probably didn’t have the money to replace the boat if it smashed up on the rocks, and they spent days mending their nets after fishing, meaning they didn’t have the money to just go out and purchase another net when their current nets got holes in them.

As for Jesus, he came from Nazareth and was described as a “tekton”, which has long been translated as “carpenter” or “woodworker,” but has also been translated as “craftsman” or “artisan.” There is no evidence that this indicated Jesus had any sort of wealth. In fact, he may have been a day laborer who walked over from Nazareth to Tiberias to work on the properties of the wealthy. He may have been a very skilled day laborer, but a laborer nonetheless.

I think if Jesus had had some sort of noticeable wealth, it would have been mentioned in the Gospels. Instead, we have parables like the woman who had 10 coins and lost one, and swept her house carefully to find her one coin, because a denarius was equal to a day’s wages. Or the parable of the laborers in the vineyard, where the earlier workers got into a snit when they discovered the master was paying everyone the same, and they weren’t getting any more for getting there earlier. And when he does talk about the wealthy, he tells the rich young ruler to leave everything and follow him, or has the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

We have to be very careful about putting modern ideas regarding wealth and poverty on people who lived prior to the modern era. After all, even if you live in an old house but still have internal plumbing and a window A/C, you are living better than even the wealthiest Senators of Rome.

@ Dee

According to what I saw and heard and read in one of their own publications, LCMS is conservative (your word) and complementarian and no women pastors and has ‘elders’, one of whom I knew and who laid hands on young g’daughter along with the pastor when they prayed for her at graduation, which was announced as the ‘elders’ doing the praying. Also noted is a hierarchy which I have mentioned before.

So, laying aside the hierarchy issue, what is it about comp and elder and conservative that is different from LCMS on the one hand and elder-led SBC on the other hand?

Dee Parsons: Plundering the unrighteous? Now this is one I haven’t heard before. Can you point in the right direction? I would absolutely love to write about it.

I encountered this concept repeatedly expressed by leaders in a conservative Presby congregation that I affiliated with for the better part of decade. The original sense appears to go back to Augustine who used it in the sense of appropriating valid ideas from the world of unbelief, sort of a counterpoint to the intellectual separatism of the “What does Athens have to do with Jerusalem?”
perspective.

In that church context, I encountered this meme in its original sense, but also in a much more earthy and hostile sense in terms of “taking money from (people we reckon to be) God’s enemies.” I don’t know whether that sense is as widespread (or as explicitly affirmed; it is a rather unappealing “look” to outsiders, after all) as the original, but I suspect that it is not rare (the basis of my above note).

If you wanted to explore this, I think that the place to start might be Reformed reflection on Common versus Particular Grace. For the Reformed, God’s common grace goodness toward the non-elect is not predicated on any kindness in God toward them per se (contra texts such as “YHWH has compassion on all He has made”), but is rather the incidental and unavoidable overflow of His goodness toward the elect. For Calvin, God is not in Himself “love” — He is that only toward the elect; toward the reprobate God is actually “hate.”

okrapod,

The only countervailing detail that I can think of is a remark in NT Wright’s “Jesus and the Victory of God” (IIRC) that Joseph’s occupation, “tekton” (builder) was not a high status or well compensated line of work in the 1st Century. Wright seems to regard Jesus’ family as being what we would call “working class.” Not destitute, but not high status, either.

There is also a possibly relevant incidental note in the Gospel of John that the people were surprised by Jesus’ teaching because He had not been a formally trained student in the schools of the day.

Samuel Conner: “tekton”

I once read that Jesus could also have been a stone mason. This article summarizes what I read quite a few years ago: https://www.christianpost.com/news/jesus-carpenter-or-stonemason-181531/

Unepetiteanana: Ugh. I work right by the new 70 acre lot. They already have a campus no more than a mile or so down the road on Departure.

Yes they do, but it is not visible from the high end car dealerships like the new one will be. Sure they are moving away from the Rolls Royce, BMW and Mercedes franchises, but what good is being near those showrooms when the church campus cannot be seen from them. Besides, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Leith organization doesn’t eventually move those to join the Audi and Infiniti showrooms by the new Summit campus.

Southern Baptists then and now:

Then, southeastern nm and west texas oil fields: most towns had a 1st Baptist church, centrally located. Should the footprint of the town grow, folks would decide (sans preacher input) to start a “Love Avenue” or “West Second” Baptist church. Or the preacher would for example preach about the rapture and maybe a third of the people were not dispensationalist, so they would quietly withdraw and start a church with “their” beliefs. Folks in outlying villages, or oil field camps, would start churches out there where there were none. You didn’t expect to get rich preaching

Now: preaching is a career called “senior pastor” even if you are the only person on staff. You are not building Christ’s kingdom, but your own, although you will never admit it. You preach the storehouse tithe so you can self appoint yourself rightful minister in an area (aka church plant) and teach that if the pew peons don’t pony up to you they rob God. You studied all the gurus of the church growth movement and are sure if you land in town a. knowing more than the peons (whatever their theology is you need a new one) just like the dispensationalists did in the 20th century and b) if you follow the right techniques lots of people will join.

If you need a building asap don’t plant, just renew, renovate, or replant aka take over an existing church and its building. What if people don’t rush to join? Can’t be that the church growth movement is wrong even if Jesus did warn AGAINST having everyone saying good things about you and even if He did make clear the high cost of discipleship. You are following the system and need the extra money, so it must be the fault of peons. Maybe they just aren’t elect. (This could be true, too!) Maybe they don’t like your theology, or like you, or just plain don’t want to change. Shake the dust off your feet and move on.

The difference in the two SBC’s is this: in the first, Christ is Lord over the church and delegates authority to the congregation. Makes them Baptist. In the second, the pastor is lord over the church and delegates authority to no one else. Makes them, well, not Baptist.

Go back to the first way and there were healthy modified Arminian, healthy dispensational, and healthy Calvinist SBC churches. (Not all were healthy but most were.)

Do it the second way and no matter the theology you cannot have a healthy BAPTIST church.

Just my btdt opinion.

Dee Parsons: Plundering the unrighteous? Now this is one I haven’t heard before. Can you point in the right direction? I would absolutely love to write about it.

Sounds like something I heard about an Islamic teaching once.

Didn’t Dever get a large contribution from a non-churchgoer? l’m half-inclined to go so far as “unbeliever” but am not completely sure of the facts.

refugee: Didn’t Dever get a large contribution from a non-churchgoer? l’m half-inclined to go so far as “unbeliever” but am not completely sure of the facts.

Fortunately, 9Marks has a video that describes it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VNz714D6kw. 3:39 is where they describe this donor, and 4:28 is where they state he is a non-believer. Matt Schmucker seems to be the one pulling all the financial strings in both 9Marks and T4G.

Muslin fka Deana Holmes: give 9 Marks money

9 Marks (German) = $5.39 US not a big gift.

ishy: “I’m going to plant a megachurch.”

Ironically, I have a friend who is planting a church in Alpharetta currently. https://verticalchurchatl.com/

drstevej: Ironically, I have a friend who is planting a church in Alpharetta currently. https://verticalchurchatl.com/

I have never before seen this as a statement of faith: “Each member of the Godhead, while executing distinct but complementary roles in redemptive history…”

But but I googled it and it seems to be a very popular statement.

Louisville trendychurch Sojourn launched its own church planting network several years ago. The first targets for Sojourn franchises? Chattanooga, Tenn. and Woodstock, Ga., of course!

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/108298299/

“Rusty McKie often gets a puzzled response when he tells people he is leading a group of about 18 people moving from Louisville to launch a new church in Chattanooga, Tenn. McKie doesn’t have roots there, after all, and the city already has a fair supply of churches.”

“McKie and another pastor are the first to be commissioned to launch new churches under the new Sojourn Network, a church-planting organization based at Sojourn Community Church in Louisville. The other, Trent Chambers, is launching a similar church in Woodstock, Ga., near Atlanta.”

“The Sojourn church, a Southern Baptist congregation founded in 2000, draws nearly 3,000 people weekly at four campuses in Louisville and Southern Indiana. It has drawn a largely young-adult crowd and has a mix of high-energy worship, community service, support for arts, small-group fellowships, discipline of members and a conservative theology strongly influenced by Calvinist doctrines”

“It may be surprising that a group of laypeople would volunteer to move to another city for the express purpose of forming a church, but McKie said it’s an ‘easier transition’ for members who have known each other for years…Some have already moved to Chattanooga, while others are still in Louisville while seeking work and housing there. He hopes to have the church launched later this year. Chambers, also 28 and a Southern Seminary graduate,…[is] in Woodstock…with a small group of people…planning a more public launch of the congregation soon.”

Northpoint has successfully planted satellite churches in most of the affluent areas of north Georgia. And they claim to be “all for the unreached”? Right.

okrapod,

When Jesus was born Mary and Joseph couldn’t afford a lamb, so they sacrificed either doves or pigeons (compare Luke 2 with Leviticus 12). So they certainly weren’t wealthy.

Also, Luke 8 says that several women were financially supporting Jesus’ ministry. He did have help and patrons.

Dear Wartburg People,

Please pray for the 12 children and their soccer coach trapped in a bubble of air in a flooded cave system in Thailand. Their situation is quite dire, and it is far from certain that they can be rescued.

With God all things are possible. If it be His will, let these poor souls come to the light of day again…

ishy,

See Raleigh White church as a precedent for less autonomous local churches!

Dee Parsons,

Look at the Raleigh White Church as possible deception covered in virtue to create a precedent.

Jerome,

I don’t know much about the Atlanta area, but Chattanooga is a much nicer area than Louisville!
Nice vacay spot too, lots of things to see and do ……… Hmmmmmmmm……

Jack: Existing Roman Catholic churches are thriving due to immigration but I haven’t heard of any new ones opening up.

Catholics have a parish system so wouldn’t deliberately set up competing churches. I suspect their main bottleneck is a lack of priests and a priest must be present for the mass so they go for multiple services in one church.

Samuel Conner: At least among more traditional Reformed, there is also the concept of “plundering the unrighteous”, which is a theological riff on the Exodus account of the Israelites plundering the Egyptians as they were leaving.

Reminds me of Massachusetts Puritans LARPing the Book of Joshua.

okrapod: Seventy acres in North Raleigh is just one more step toward the goal. The goal of we are right, and we have the money to show for it, and therefore it is only right that we are in charge. The logic behind that is non-existent but who cares. It is solidly American free enterprise.

Jesus Christ:
God of the Rich and Powerful and ONLY the Rich and Powerful.
What about all the other 99% of us?

okrapod,

As always you bring up some fascinating points. I don’t buy into the poverty stricken to the barely middlin’ traditional model of the Holy Family either.

They fled into Egypt with a King’s ransom so to speak, and my guess is that it was Alexandria where they sojourned.

Alexandria was probably thee cosmopolitan hub of the Greco-Roman world at the time and also a center of intellectual life centered at the great library.

I’m guessing that Joseph got into the building trades and became even wealthier than when he and his family first arrived at Alexandria.

Pure speculation on my part of course, but I love looking through the portal of ‘what if?’ spoken of where John closes his Gospel (John 21:25).

I also believe as William Blake did that he sailed to Britannia with Joseph of Arimathea.

A.Stacy: I know of an ARC church that is putting 50 churches in its own state but out of the blue they put a church in one of the richest counties in FL. (another state far far away) Where in FL there are other successful (in their terms) ARC churches exist.

“Why do you rob banks?”
“BECAUSE THAT’S WHERE THE MONEY IS.”

jyjames: My husband and I identified our spiritual gifts. No church interested. (We exercise them in the Body of Christ, parachurch.) Churches seek pocketbooks and duties (run carnival Sunday, the nursery, VBS, couples night, youth game night, etc. – like the local YMCA – only all volunteers).

I hear you.

I think that all skills and abilities and opportunities are from God, so I use the word ‘spiritual’ in that sense rather than the more common use. That said, I exercised my gifts in the secular world. IMO it is ultimately to the entire world that gifts are directed-not just to the church. Paul was talking about the church specifically but I am thinking not exclusively. Besides, ‘the church’ mostly gets up and goes to work so ‘the church’ is more apt to be everywhere than just in the pew or prayer room.

Preacher’s Wife:
Of course, Jesus also has that weird parable in Luke 16 and at the end he tells people to use unrighteous wealth to make friends.I haven’t studied it, but it has always been odd to me.

That is definitely an intriguing and puzzling parable. I recently encountered the suggestion that in the steward’s write-downs of the debts, he was forgiving not the owner’s principal and accrued interest but his own “placement fee” which he would have kept for himself when the loan was repaid. If that’s right, the owner of the assets was not defrauded. That removes the discomfort one might experience in Jesus’ apparent commendation of what looks like the defrauding of the owner of the assets. In that case, the steward was giving up something of his own (though perhaps unrighteously added to the amount due at the time the loan was negotiated) in exchange for something more valuable.

OTOH, even if one assumes that the owner is defrauded, perhaps the point of the parable is relatively narrow. We tend to think that wise/prudent/shrewd employment of money results in “more money” (and that imperative is on the surface of other stewardship parables). Perhaps the point of this story is that a better way of thinking about “investment” is in relationships that will endure into the Age to Come.

Grainne: priesthood of all believers … being promulgated in the SBC now by the Neo-Calvinists. For Baptists it is the priesthood of each believer – a subtle but vital difference

The average Southern Baptist has no idea that the Baptist Faith & Message, their statement of faith, was quietly changed in that regard in a 2000 revision … Al Mohler was on the revision team. Two distinctive long-standing SBC doctrines that characterize Baptists were diminished in 2000: soul competency and priesthood of ‘the’ believer. The BFM2000 contains other changes which trend the denomination toward Calvinism in belief and practice. As you note, these were subtle changes; Mohler is slick.

Jackie Newton: You

I call it the American Evangelical church to distinguish it from real Christian churches (sorry for the offense, but it’s a business model and has zero resemblance to the NT church, and the only model that the NT gave us was one of care and connection). America makes a buck off of anything, including Christ. We can’t seem to help ourselves. It’s part of our heritage now, and it’s in our DNA. Thankfully, Christ can redeem anything.

I think of franchises as passing on the family fortune. Franklin Graham’s dynasty bears no spiritual resemblance (IMO) to his father’s, but the financial potential and incentive were just too much to pass up. Plus you can play the prodigal son card to maximize market outreach. See Tullian Tchividjian. And the cousin of the family franchise is the “family” franchise, where, for example, members of the Gospel Coalition flatter, endorse, and create savvy business opportunities to enrich each other, ostensibly “brothers in the faith,” but really just a multi-level marketing system, with *down lines” elbowing each other to inch a little closer to the top-tier icons. You can call it whatever you like, it just ain’t Jesus.

Grainne: Baptist churches are congregation led, not elder or pastor ruled: this is the distinctive character of Baptist church polity. It has been eroded to such an extent that it is hard to find a ‘real’ Baptist church.

Agreed. While most Southern Baptists in the pew don’t really give two hoots about theological jots and tittles (allowing Calvinism wiggle room), there are two things that will stir them up if you mess with them: (1) taking away congregational governance, and/or (2) taking away their potluck dinners! Maneuvering a church to elder-rule polity will precipitate much weeping and gnashing of teeth after a young reformer lies his way past a pastor search committee and begins to change everything. Only the bold among them will take on this challenge; the rest opt for church-planting rather than church-takeover.

okrapod,

Agreed — anachronistic readings are to be avoided — and thanks for the “referral” to Prof Levine. I’ll add her to my “must read” list.

Grainne: Chris Rosebrough of the AALC, and also the LCMS, are hierarchical, priest-led churches. No women can become priests. Rosebrough is strongly Young Earth, anti women in the pastorate, and complementarian.

I prefer listening to or reading Jordan Cooper at his Just and Sinner blog on Patheos or the podcast. He’s an old earther, which unfortunately makes him something of an anomaly among conservative Lutheran pastors. I also find him enjoyable to listen to; he never comes across as aggressive the way Rosebrough can.

okrapod: My thoughts after the Fourth. F-r-e-e-d-o-m is not free.

Only generations in America who have experienced war understand that – who have been engaged in battle themselves or had family who were, who have lost loved family and friends fighting for freedom. As sad as it is, the best Americans have lived through the conflict of nations warring against nations – warring to remain free has a way of screwing your head on straight about freedom and honoring those who paid the price to keep it. We need to recognize patriots wherever they are found in America … yes, even in church!

JDV: But this is church, so people feel they need to be doing something. The new radical plank of the NeoCals is apologizing for injustice and serving the community. If in reality it involves positioning groups for inner-city inroads to populations whose churches can be replanted by the appropriate authoritarian, so much the better, right? Then your ministry from the affluent burbs can be sending a youth group down to help the inner city church distribute coats, or have adult groups help refurb replanted churches. Videos can show amazing outreach — no matter how surface level and circular it is, and in every scenario, pastors and staff get paid.

This is the best theory I have heard so far as to WHY this is happening. I see it on TGC and hear guys like Russ Moore talking about it, but this is a possible explanation as to why. I have a hard time believing that people who hurt people in their own community so much would help others out of the goodness of their heart. Extending control is a possible explanation.

Janet: the only model that the NT gave us was one of care and connection

Yes, and everything else you wrote. Including about the Franklin Graham Enterprise vs. his dad. It was just too good to pass up.

JDV: The new radical plank of the NeoCals is apologizing for injustice and serving the community. If in reality it involves positioning groups for inner-city inroads to populations whose churches can be replanted by the appropriate authoritarian, so much the better, right? Then your ministry from the affluent burbs can be sending a youth group down to help the inner city church distribute coats, or have adult groups help refurb replanted churches. Videos can show amazing outreach — no matter how surface level and circular it is, and in every scenario, pastors and staff get paid.

JDV:Can you give us evidence of NeoCals apologizing for injustice?

GSD [Getting Stuff Done],

Ha ha. I think an often ignored point of “God in the flesh” was to DEFY that sort of thinking. We seem to play down the Human part of Christ to our own detriment. It’s almost a footnote instead of the front and center example. Look at how “mean” He was to the Pharisees! I did note that Prof Levine played that down in one part of a book of hers I read. I wish I could remember exactly what she said. I need to go back and visit that.

JDV,

We will see how it plays out. it hasn’t played out too well for a certain megachurch. They opened a campus in a lower-income area and used the social justice shitck to grow it. What ensued were lines of people begging for help.

They are now in quite a pickle. All of their other campuses are in middle to high-income areas. So, How can they close down that campus that loses money without bad PR? They can’t.

Btw, the Pew sitters that attend all campuses for the satellite sermon have no clue and I’m not supposed to even know about the current elder hand wringing over the “mistake” they made.. Lol.

okrapod: That said, I exercised my gifts in the secular world. IMO it is ultimately to the entire world that gifts are directed-not just to the church. Paul was talking about the church specifically but I am thinking not exclusively. Besides, ‘the church’ mostly gets up and goes to work so ‘the church’ is more apt to be everywhere than just in the pew or prayer room.

Like! Like!

Lydia,

Actually, Jesus asserted authority over the Temple. That’s arguably what precipitated His arrest, trial and execution (this is not to ignore the many other factors that aggravated the antagonism of His opponents). NT Wright reckons that Jesus knew this would be the outcome, and that He intentionally timed His challenge to the priests to coincide with Passover in order that His death would be associated with the Passover celebration.

Samuel Conner: Dee Parsons: Plundering the unrighteous? Now this is one I haven’t heard before. Can you point in the right direction? I would absolutely love to write about it.

I encountered this concept repeatedly expressed by leaders in a conservative Presby congregation that I affiliated with for the better part of decade. The original sense appears to go back to Augustine who used it in the sense of appropriating valid ideas from the world of unbelief, sort of a counterpoint to the intellectual separatism of the “What does Athens have to do with Jerusalem?”
perspective.

In that church context, I encountered this meme in its original sense, but also in a much more earthy and hostile sense in terms of “taking money from (people we reckon to be) God’s enemies.” I don’t know whether that sense is as widespread (or as explicitly affirmed; it is a rather unappealing “look” to outsiders, after all) as the original, but I suspect that it is not rare (the basis of my above note).

I heard similar concepts in my Conservative Presby church. It simply affirms my belief that Calvinism is nothing more than cloaked Judaism. They have the same chilling, ugly belief that the wealth and production of the heathen is being created for their benefit. A belief that there are lesser men, created simply to serve and do the dirty work for the elite has led to oppression of others considered ‘lesser’ for centuries. My former pastor spoke often of his conviction that he would someday enjoy the wealth of the nations – supposedly as promised by God to his ‘chosen’ ones.

truthseeker00: I heard similar concepts in my Conservative Presby church. It simply affirms my belief that Calvinism is nothing more than cloaked Judaism. They have the same chilling, ugly belief that the wealth and production of the heathen is being created for their benefit. A belief that there are lesser men, created simply to serve and do the dirty work for the elite has led to oppression of others considered ‘lesser’ for centuries. My former pastor spoke often of his conviction that he would someday enjoy the wealth of the nations – supposedly as promised by God to his ‘chosen’ ones.

About a decade ago I heard a helpful series of lectures on “history of christian theology” by Phil Carey (teaches theology at Eastern University (Phila, PA)). The lectures were a DVD series by “The Great Courses” corporation. Given the breadth of the subject, it was of necessity only a cursory survey, but still helpful. Carey is an engaging and sympathetic teacher. At the time I was fairly convinced of the basic validity of the Calvinist soteriological system (since then I have grown highly skeptical of infernalism but remain persuaded of the validity of monergism; this is a trajectory that I suspect for many ends up at universalism, though I remain agnostic at that point). Carey is Lutheran in conviction but has an appealing appreciation of alternative views of things.

I think it was in his thumbnail sketch of Barth’s ideas that Carey pointed out that in the OT, the idea of election is not so much about being chosen to receive blessing but being chosen to be God’s instrument of redemption for the sake of the world.

This meshes beautifully with NT Wright’s ideas that the narrative arc of the story of the entire bible, from Creation through the restoration of all things, is about God calling successive servants who were to be His instruments by whom the world would be blessed. They all fail in one way or another, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and his successors until, finally, God Himself appears in the form of a living man, Jesus, and proves to be incorruptible.

In their focus on the good that God intends to shower on them (in contradistinction to the evil that is reserved to everyone else), the Reformed IMO don’t “get” election in its largest sense, that Christ’s people are God’s elect FOR the world, meant to be agents of (small “r”) redemption as Christ, their Head, is subduing all things and bringing them into subjection to the Father.

It looks like a rather sterile way of relating to the rest of the world.

GSD [Getting Stuff Done],

From your description, it sounds like actual substantive teaching and interpersonal ministry is happening in the smaller group setting. So the point of the “big production gathering” is to draw people in, in hope that they will get connected to something more substantial (and which is on offer)?

IMO that could be a valid ministry model, though the arms race aspect sounds unsustainable. US is littered with vacant retail spaces; will the purpose-built mega-meeting places also go that way in coming decades?

Dee Parsons: One exception to this is Prince of Peace Lutheran in Dallas which has become a mega church of sorts.

That 8 story glass atrium has to win a lot of soles to Christ. Just google it and do a sat view.

I drive by it at times on my way to Costco. 🙂

Jerome: McKie doesn’t have roots there, after all, and the city already has a fair supply of churches.

But are they really Christian churches? Think back to Piper’s “barely a Christian” comments. These folks really do believe that everyone else is just flat out wrong and need to be told the truth. You can find this attitude is various blog posts and comments around the web. But it is the message that is not to be spoken in public least the people doing it wrong decide they don’t want the fix.

The Village Church. … He put his satellite church right across the street from Southlake Baptist.

Interesting. I’m in that area a lot and never noticed. So I did some mapping. Maybe the draw was the Islamic Center a few hundred feet down the road. Or the HUGE Gateway church 1000 feet away.[1]

Now this IS an affluent area. Sort of like a Dallas Beverly Hills. Toniest area with an Apple Store I’ve seen. City offices are intermingled with the Apple store and other similar ones. And Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, all in the neighborhood.

[1]After getting more involved in local zoning and development issues I’m wondering if these big (and not so big) churches are being pushed to the localations they are picking as area homeowners fight tooth and nail against them being built ITBY. (In Their Back Yard)

Samuel Conner,

I should add that I have a sense of what it is like to “not be able to do it any more”. It’s not clear to me that the churches are functioning as they were intended to by their Founder, and I sympathize with those who find it more nearly possible to follow Jesus outside of the context of the current landscape of formal religious institutions. While I’m not committed to a posture of “Done”, I do think of myself as being on an extended sabbatical, and the opportunity this has provided to shake off the group-think of my former environments has been helpful.

Where I live there’s a “mega” out near the burbs (I use quotes because this is a relatively small town, and this church has not quite a thousand in regular attendance, so it doesn’t technically qualify, but it’s about as close as you’ll get around here). They used to meet at the local high school, targeted the youth and the university students, and they finally got big enough and got enough collateral to finance the big, profoundly ugly white warehouse-looking monstrosity (of course in the affluent burbs) with the professionally-designed logo on the front. The church has a cutesy name, in the style of “Elevation”, very close. They don’t call their members “Elevators”, of course, but they call them something very similar. Very much about the branding—and cannibalizing their “growth” from area churches. It’s the type of place where the head pastor’s 40 or so and the associate pastor is maybe 30, rock star cute, has oh-so-very-trendy hair, and wears pants so tight you can tell his religion (if you know what I mean). They preach of “coming under authority” from the pulpit—and they’re not talking about Jesus’ authority. But members are getting the relevant sermons, the cool music from the praise band, the rockin’ good coffee, and all the cool kids are there in the audience with you—why worry?

But there’s trouble. Recently the biggest mega in the nearby city built a satellite campus in our town with an even cooler building and campus, the kind that ends up in the architecture magazine, and they must’ve bought property all the way from their new church building to the bypass where everyone drives around here, because they chopped acres of trees down right down to that bypass so now everyone can clearly see their satellite campus (also with a cool, trendy name, a name strikingly similar to our first local mega mentioned above, in fact) as they drive down the bypass to Walmart. This place is also cool, trendy, with relevant this and that. It was built here not one year after mega #1 got their new campus. And the place Mega #2 chose to build is just down the street from mega #1, about a 45 second drive away.

Dueling megas in our small town.

Law Prof: Perhaps they are selling a commodity, like Coke or Pepsi

“Cheap grace … grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares.” (Dietrich Bonhoeffer)

Law Prof,

Thir own interests: wealth, power, fame, adoration, control ……

Samuel Conner: So the point of the “big production gathering” is to draw people in, in hope that they will get connected to something more substantial (and which is on offer)?

It does seem to have worked, in the case of these Sunday School folks. But I don’t think the leadership would approve. I remember hearing one of them say that their church is in the business of making disciples. If people would show up for Sunday School, Sunday AM and Sunday PM, they would be a disciple.

I found out later that one reason the Sunday School class bailed is that the church is in the middle of a marriage series. These folks are retirement age, some widows, some married for decades, and listening to a thirty-something dude talk about marriage just isn’t… relevant.

Tennis

So, Roger’s through to the quarter-finals without dropping a set. Serena’s match has just started; she’s just broken for 2-0 in the first set. Rafa plays Jiri Vesely immediately after that match on Center Court, which has seen a bit of a Parade of Champions today.

The Kindness of Strangers

Slight change of topic, but a big shoutout to the lassie from München who stopped and gave me a lift down to Zell am Ziller this afternoon as I plodded down the road berating myself for getting the bus times all wrong. Nice to have a proper conversation in German (even if a little halting on my part!). As a result, I walked into Zell Bahnhof just a few minutes before the Mayrhofen train arrived. So that went well.

Fitba'

Nae fitba’ theday. Belgium play France tomorrow in the first semi-final, and the overall winners will probably (though nothing is certain in this Weltmeisterschaft) come from that game. England play Croatia in the second on Wednesday.

IHTIH

Samuel Conner,

I am not sure how that negates what we know about JtB? You lost me. And I don’t disagree with your assertion. Perhaps we are talking about different things?.

Samuel Conner:
From your description, it sounds like actual substantive teaching and interpersonal ministry is happening in the smaller group setting. So the point of the “big production gathering” is to draw people in, in hope that they will get connected to something more substantial (and which is on offer)?

The main problem I encountered in multiple megas was that the groups were constantly changing and often were directed at singular demographics. That wouldn’t be so bad, but they often left certain groups out. They wouldn’t let single and married people combine. Women’s groups did studies only on marriage and kids.

And it seemed like whenever I did find a group that might be accepting, the leader would quit or they would inevitably narrow the demographic. If you were a kid or a young married couple, you were set. Everybody else might have a group or might not.

Here is a relevant thought taken from a fine post by TheWeeFlea, otherwise known as the Rev David Robertson of the Free Church of Scotland. He is responding to statements made by Tim Keller which were retweeted by John Stevens of the FIEC and The Proclamation Trust in the UK which seemingly endorse the idea that it’s better to preach the Gospel to the affluent and the educated because it’s too hard to accommodate the poor and illiterate into their churches. (My take on what was said). I saw this in action at a large city centre church which spent millions of pounds renovating premises and then expanding into another affluent area of Glasgow by taking over the building that housed the Royal Scottish National Orchestra. All of this is simply “chasing the money”, in my opinion.

“Money Talks!

In an evangelicalism with a weak ecclesiology para church ministries will inevitably go to the wealthier churches who can afford to pay more for them…that’s the nature of the beast. The market determines. But should the church be based on a market economy? The millionaires tithe is more valued than the widows mite. I once spoke at a millionaires conference – designed to persuade wealthy Christians to donate to Christian mission. Even if it was mission to the poor, was that right?

Personally I’m fed up of churches and organisations who want to come and plant churches in Scotland but who all think that they are going to plant in the centre of Edinburgh, the West end of Glasgow or St Andrews. No one seems called to Kilmarnock or Cowdenbeath. My rejoinder to this type of thinking is simple – Jesus came from Nazareth. And he came first of all to the poor.”
https://theweeflea.com/2018/06/20/tim-keller-and-middle-class-churches/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Samuel Conner,

“John the Baptist”? I really am slow. Sorry.

Samuel Conner:
Samuel Conner,

“John the Baptist”?I really am slow. Sorry.

Considering that Microsoft and/or the Feds have exhausted every possible three-letter acronym, your confusion is understandable.

Law Prof: Dueling megas in our small town.

How exciting. Sundays are High Noon at the OK Corral, of sorts.

Dee Parsons: Pastors in these churches are not simply podcasts on legs

Trying to picture that.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Considering that Microsoft and/or the Feds have exhausted every possible three-letter acronym, your confusion is understandable.

Microsoft products have become such a byzantine quagmire of needless complexity and useless glitz, it’s a wonder they work at all.

Law Prof: a satellite campus in our town with an even cooler building and campus, the kind that ends up in the architecture magazine, and they must’ve bought property all the way from their new church building to the bypass where everyone drives around here, because they chopped acres of trees down right down to that bypass so now everyone can clearly see their satellite campus

We have an Architectural Digest church in town. The architectural visitors can’t keep it going. It is now buried by condo highrises as they desperately sell the land around. So much for the pricey landmark, for the “gospel”.

Samuel Conner,

I shouldn’t have used it. Too lazy to type it out? Guilty!

elastigirl,

Close. It’s Connection, and they call members “Connectors”. Gives me the hives just thinking about it. The other church is called “Compassion”. I don’t know if they call their members “Compassioners”.

elastigirl: –i’d like to think i can simply live my life with a priority on doing my best, asking God to join me in the process.

In the fundagelical religion I came out of, your best is not good enough.
You (generic you) join God, he DOES NOT join you.

Your sole existence is based on executing his plans and he has no desire or need for your input.

FW Rez,

TWW’s related article:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/05/16/did-a-large-sbc-entity-refuse-to-report-a-known-sex-offender-to-authorities-and-to-other-churches-law-enforcement-is-now-investigating-sbctoo-metoo/

FW Rez: “A Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary graduate who recently resigned from the South Carolina Baptist Convention has been charged with sexually assaulting a teenager in Arlington more than two decades ago … Mark Edwin Aderholt

If I was an investigative reporter, I would be asking SCBC and IMB what they knew about Aderholt’s past and when they knew it.

Muff Potter,

“You (generic you) join God, he DOES NOT join you.”
+++++++++++++

i remember going through that bible study “Experiencing God”, and thinking how impractical it was.

a busy, focussed problem solver has to wait until he/she sees God at work… then he/she joins Him… meanwhile, there are problems to solve. how much focus has to be taken away from solving problems before he/she finally thinks they might be observing where God is at work? will the problem solver change course in order to join God in what they perceived God was up to? What problems will end up being shelved as a result?
———————–

“Your sole existence is based on executing his plans and he has no desire or need for your input.”
++++++++++++++

how utterly boring, for us and for God. I fully believe God takes great interest and pleasure in seeing what we’re going to do next, and is just itchin’ to be invited to join in the process. for the pleasure of each other’s company, the adventure of the journey, and to join forces to be super-able.

i mean, i think generally speaking God does need agents and vehicles through whom to operate. he needs hands and feet and voice (and minds) through whom to do things.

Nick Bulbeck: I think the idea of a trajectory ending up in universalism is a fascinating one.

I was always taught that universalism is heresy. But over the last few years I found that some very “orthodox” Christians have been universalists. Gregory of Nyssa is one of them. Considering his role in finalizing the Nicene Creed at then 2nd ecumenical council, his ideas have weight. Here is a very short summary of his view of heaven and hell: https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/morningoffering/2018/07/eternity-2/. I don’t believe that all Orthodox would agree with him on universalism, but it’s a view that apparently has room within orthodoxy.

FW Rez: This is a text book case as to why something needs to be done in SBC life to assure that predators are documented as per Wade Burleson’s recommendations.

There is a growing list of text book cases in SBC that would support a “church sex offenders list” … some SBC leaders who either abused or covered an abuser would be on that list. If a municipality has such a list to warn you that a sex offender lives down the street, a church needs to know if pastoral candidates have sexual immorality on their resumes. Indeed, some of these guys need to be in jail rather than the pulpit!

Christine: advertising a big new “rebranding” announcement tomorrow. I am betting that they will drop the old ____________ Baptist Church name and switch to Relevant or Raincloud or Excite or some such name

Oh, please let us know! I keep waiting for some honest young reformer to name their church “Takeover.”

Two random thoughts while the green beans I am canning pressure.

1. Some Baptists, including the Primitive Baptist Universalists were hard core Calvinist BUT believe limited atonement is for this life only. There will be an undifferentiated universal atonement for all. However, they truly are not “no hellers” as they firmly believe in hell on earth, at the very least emotionally, for all who reject Christ and or sin grievously. All are believed to eventually at death see the truth and accept Christ.

And why did Experiencing God teach us to wait and see where God is at work? Well, the preacher that took us through it did so strategically. Once there was a smidgeon of growth he went to the other SBC churches in town, showed them our growth, told them that “clearly this is where God is working” and suggested they shut their doors and come cooperate with God’s will.

It is an almost cultic church growth/takeover/blind the sheeple course in my never very humble opinion.

elastigirl:
Samuel Conner,

–it’s encouraging.are we being transformed?by what process?

I have hesitated to attempt a suggestion in reply to this apparent question as there’s such a vast diversity of views in the different strands of the Church “tapestry”, and my current “best guess” may rub some TWW readers the wrong way. With a measure of trepidation, here are some thoughts:

That “conformity to the likeness of Jesus” is the ultimate destination for the trajectory on which we (for some definition of “we”; my hope is that in the end it will be found to be an exceedingly broad definition) find ourselves seems apparent from texts such as Romans 8 and 1 Jn 3. Paul seems to see this as not simply being an eschatological discontinuity in each individual, but something that actually happens “under the sun” — being transformed “from glory to glory.”

As you say, this is exceedingly encouraging.

What does that look like now? Is there “process”?

Here there is a large range of opinion (and please correct me as I expose my ignorance; misstatements and elisions in what follows are rooted in my ignorance, not in malice).

Some speak of a 2nd blessing of “entire sanctification” by the Holy Spirit that follows at some interval after regeneration.

Reformed speak of “progressive sanctification” in which the Holy Spirit changes us bit by bit as we resort to various means of grace that God provides to us through the ministries of the local church.

Catholics (and I suppose Orthodox) tend to think in terms of impartation of grace (almost, it seems to me, as though grace is a kind of substance) through reception of the various sacraments that God provides through the ministry of the churches.

(aside: I think I am right in saying that Reformed and Catholic resemble each other at this point in that they see the official ministries of the institutional Church as being the primary visible instruments by which God effects the sanctification of His people)

What do Baptists think? I don’t have clear ideas, though exposure to some LifeWay resources a decade ago suggests that at least some advocate a kind of “displacement” theory in which (to simplify) fixing one’s attention on biblical teachings can help to drive out bad ideas or impulses, with a backstop of fleeing occasions of temptation for an extra measure of safety. This looks to me like a kind of intentional approach to the formation of holier habits and may be very useful.

My current “best guess” sense overlaps a bit with each of the above (except for the “entire sanctification” view). Change toward the likeness of Jesus is generally “progressive” as in “over time” (and not necessarily uni-directional; regression is possible).

While there are visible consequences in behavior, simple behavior adjustment is not itself change. Change towards Jesus is, at root, change in the affections of the heart. That’s something that God has to do (monergism; Reformed would heartily concur), but the various visible means of grace (which might be more numerous or general than the great institutional traditions reckon) can be instrumental in this. Relationships with other believers in the local church (however one defines that — perhaps “two or three” wise believing friends is enough) can be extremely useful because in that context it can be easier to see ourselves clearly. (Think, for example, of Nathan’s elicitation of an accurate self-assessment from David in the matter of Bathsheba and Uriah. David was struck to the heart and repented.).

I think it can be helpful to cultivate habits of self-observation and a curiosity about the character of one’s own motives and a measure of self-skepticism. This is not to be morbidly introspective, but to recognize the reality that I am not yet pure in heart, and to be aware that that reality can lead to bad places. From time to time I may get clear evidence of badness in my motives, which can become part of my prayer agenda. Sometimes seeing myself clearly has actually so repelled me that I was thereafter different; I attribute this to the internal working of the Holy Spirit in my heart.

I hope that may be helpful.

—-

imagine the art!

And the gardens!

Samuel Conner,

part 2

Transformation, Change….
i’ve had a few totally supernatural experiences in a God-context which left me truly different. like, i was green, then a God-activity and i’m suddenly blue. well, to be more specific, being in the proverbial dark pit too far down to ever make my way back up, then in response to a unique prayer situation, i’m suddenly out of the pit in bright warm light, my feet not even touch the ground.

but these are very much the exception.

truly, any change i’ve seen in myself has been in response to self- or other-imposed discipline, and try-try again & set the bar just a teency bit higher. whether it be growing in patience, kindness, perseverance, or any other character issue.

in the cold light of Monday morning (after one has sobered up from christian culture on Sunday)…. i have to think a good many would agree with me.

Samuel Conner,

and yes, imagine the gardens, indeed! supernatural gardens, i hope i live to be in one!

i hope i live to be inside a supernatural piece of music.

i hope i live to see supernatural cures for diseases, hunger, poverty, and a parting of the red political sea to usher them in (following by the drowning of commercial interests)

I looked at the Wiki article “Deism in England and France in the 18th century” to try and understand the direction in which some of the recent comments were going. It made reference to the fact that prior to the Enlightenment definition of Deism, it was more commonly (and I would say, more accurately) called infidelity and atheism and it gave as an example of this Baxter’s “The Arrogancy of Reason Against Divine Revelations, Repressed; Or Proud Ignorance The Cause of Infidelity, and of Men’s Quarrelling with The Word of God”.
As it happens I have Baxter’s Works and have read said sermon. The opening example he gives is of Nicodemus who asked “How can these things be?” He points out that Nicodemus accepted that Jesus was a teacher sent from God, and that He couldn’t have done what He did unless God had sent Him…But..he didn’t accept it, even though Jesus repeatedly said it was true. Baxter draws this conclusion:”here we’re all these sins together manifested in this answer: great ignorance, even in a ruler; unbelted, doubting of the conclusion, when he had acknowledged the premises; an unreachable ness, in part, when he professed himself to come to learn; an arrogant conceit of the capaciousness of his understanding, as if Christ’s words, or the plain truth, should be sooner suspected, than his shallow capacity.”
The doctrine following on from this is “The corrupt nature of man is more prone to question the truth of God’s Word, than to see and confess their own ignorance and capacity; and ready to doubt whether the things that Christ revealeth are true, when they themselves do not know the nature, cause and reason of them.”
He explains the doctrine thus:” They will make everything which they understand not to seem improbable, and all such improbabilities will make it seem incredible, and the incredibility of a part makes the whole seem incredible; and thus men will be infidels, or feed their infidelity by everything that themselves are ignorant of; and make it the chief reason why they will not believe or learn, because they do not already know and fully understand the things to be learned and beliefs and so God must be accused in everything that moles and worms are ignorant of.”
(The Practical Works of Richard Baxter: Volume 2: A Call to the Unconverted, pp381-396)

Lowlandseer,

Yeah, well, I don’t know who is going where, and I have no idea where Nick was coming from with his comment (accusation?) about deistic philosophy, but I associate ‘good’ with ‘God’ and ‘evil’ with ‘satan’ which is consistent with traditional orthodox thinking. And if nobody gets it or likes it or is comfortable with it, that is not my problem.

My denom has lost its mind, and Father S was talking about this Sunday. The current conference has apparently just passed some resolution to re-write the prayer book in different terminology. It was rumored prior to the conference that the want to quit using the word ‘Father’ as Jesus used it and substitute something else. They apparently and according to rumor want to call Mary of Nazareth our sister Mary (omit the Virgin Mary) and Holy Catholic Church will be renamed the body of Christ. They think this will be more palatable to the unbelievers among us. No doubt it may be.

Now add to that the idea from NTW that there is no such thing as heaven, not as a place but rather perhaps as a temporary state of being, then it gives us the first line in the ‘Lord’s Prayer’, formerly known in some circles as the ‘Our Father” as, I suppose, this: ‘Hey you, whoever you are and wherever you are, we would respect your name if we knew what it was or if you had said what you want to be called…..’ Nobody has explained how Our Father exists in a temporary state for the purposes of this, but surely one of our renegade bishops can come up with something, or probably already have. The great new issue of the mutability of God, perhaps.

The great infernal freeze will happen before I go that road, because it sets up the vocabulary for denying the divinity of Christ-and if I read Father S correctly he will also be a refusenik on this. So, if I would not capitulate to my own denom even if it means we go set up a tent in the woods for services, why would I get my underwear in a knot over whatever is is that Nick is trying to accuse me of-the great awfulness of using the words God and satan and good and evil.

Just saying. I am up early because one of my peeps is sick-again. I have been up with the sick since my childhood and the sick was my mom, and I don’t know who is going to do it when I am gone, but I have hopes for the 12 year old. I think, and a family friend who is a retired nurse thinks, that the 12 year old has the gift. I hope so.

Meanwhile, ‘Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by thy Name…and all the theology that goes with it,’ You all have a nice day. Is this being aggressive? You betcha.

Lowlandseer: Personally I’m fed up of churches and organisations who want to come and plant churches in Scotland

I’m fed up with them too, and I know some of them who arrived from the US with that very intention. People born and raised in Scotland should be planting churches, not outsiders. Same anywhere else in the world. When any believer goes to another country to “serve Christ” their first order of business should be to help local people own a vision of reaching their city/county/country. Second order of business is (if necessary) to train and coach them so they can do it.

At the risk of (and I don’t intend to, and I hope that I shall not) irritating one or both parties, I’d like to offer a few thoughts.

Like okrapod, I don’t “get” what Nick meant by the characterization of “Deist” in what I think was a reply to her comment on his hypothetical vision of universal reconciliation, and my “gut feel” reaction to that was negative.

I also don’t “get” okrapod’s characterization of Nick’s hypothetical as (what I interpret to be) “armed truce” rather “genuine peace.”

Perhaps I am misreading Nick’s meditation, but it seemed to me that what he was describing was transformation of both abuser and abused into people who are able to, respectively, deeply repent and deeply forgive. Perhaps that’s a misreading. If not, it strikes me as a beautiful vision and I think that from the perspective of orthodox theology, at least as far as the redeemed are concerned, it’s an accurate vision. And from the perspective of some strands in Orthodox theology it is (as Tweed noted) a viable option of an eschatological vision of the ultimate state of all rational natures.

I wonder whether perhaps there has been misunderstanding.

I’ll take my lumps if I have offended either party.

Sòpwith,

Several years ago, during my affiliation with a conservative presby congregation, one of the congregational leaders (technical term “Ruling Elder”) put it this way: “The baptists win ’em, and we teach ’em.”

It looked to me like a parasitic relationship. The presby congregation was not maintaining its numbers through biological means (too much mobility; young people moving to jobs far way) and the state of the local economy did not encourage an influx of people, some of whom might have convictions that aligned with conservative presbyt’ism.

But there was a slow circulation of people from the local conservative baptist congregations whose views shifted toward the presby vision of God’s sovereignty.

I wonder whether it might be that the cal- and neocal- churches need the free-will baptists, and will be eating their own ‘seed corn,’ so to speak, to take over these congregations and change their outreach-oriented cultures.

Lowlandseer:
Corrections from autocorrect
We’re should be were
Unbelted should unbelief
Unreachable ness should be unteachableness

Can you turn off autocorrect?

okrapod: Meanwhile, ‘Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by thy Name…and all the theology that goes with it,’ You all have a nice day. Is this being aggressive? You betcha.

The Our Father is one of the most beautiful prayers ever.
Why do the present day PC obsessed Orwellians hate it so?

I also love “Hail Mary full of grace… The Lord is with Thee…
There, that oughta’ rattle a few cages.

Samuel Conner: Perhaps I am misreading Nick’s meditation, but it seemed to me that what he was describing was transformation of both abuser and abused into people who are able to, respectively, deeply repent and deeply forgive. Perhaps that’s a misreading.

I appreciate your comment, and it’s not a misreading – in fact it’s a rather nice elaboration. A friend of mine with whom I went to school and (by coincidence) university, and with whom I’m still in touch, once put it thus: I make sure I forgive, because if I forgive, I live in freedom. Forgiveness of the sort that I think we’re both trying to describe here, actually maintains the freedom of the abused person.

We have an epidemic of horrible “church planting” techniques, from corporate takeover tactics to targeting “affluent” customers to make themselves instantly successful as mentioned above. One of the major problems is the church planting book: The Purpose Driven Church which details how Saddleback Church was founded by Targeting the wealthy. Here is a link to my take on the subject: thetrustworthyword.blogspot.com/2018/07/the-problem-with-saddleback-sam-and.html

NC Now: The Village Church. … He put his satellite church right across the street from Southlake Baptist.
Interesting. I’m in that area a lot and never noticed. So I did some mapping. Maybe the draw was the Islamic Center a few hundred feet down the road. Or the HUGE Gateway church 1000 feet away.

Plus what he can draw away from the dying Fellowship Church (both the Grapevine and Keller/Southlake campuses).

By far their biggest competition is, of course, Gateway. Not only due to their sheer size, but also because 1) their music is a whole lot better than most places, 2) whether you agree with Robert Morris’ teaching or not, he seems to use more Scripture than most modern-style churches, and 3) Morris was quite the rebel and openly admits it; those who felt (or feel) like prodigals will relate more to someone like them (as opposed to the Perfect PK Ed Young Jr.)

Christine: the community is full of people who would never set foot in a Baptist church but will flock to Wellspring

In which case, Wellspring leadership will do their best to conceal their SBC affiliation to prospective members … a common deception in SBC ranks these days, particularly in Southern Baptist church plants and re-plants (aka takeovers) led by New Calvinists.