1

Amen…

third ??

My Bible tells me to be nice a whole bunch of times. Here are just a few.

Mark 9:50 “Be at peace with one another.”
Hebrews 12:14 “Make every effort to be at peace with everyone”
James 1:19 “Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry”
Leviticus 19:18 “love your neighbor as yourself.”
1 Thessalonians 5:11 “encourage one another and build each other up”

Love this. Another great one, Dee. I grew up in the IFB, and I can tell you so many stories of ministry leaders who were cruel, hurtful, and abusive to anyone under them… but perfectly “nice” to suck up to those above them or to new recruits. That’s a fake niceness. Only a fool would think the middle school kid was talking about hypocritical fake niceness in the context of “love your enemies”. Ugh. These guys are just looking to pick a fight, to find one more opportunity to cut people down and remind them that they are not smart enough to get the “deep” things of the Bible. Of course, I do occasionally see this kind of “know-it-all” behavior pop up in egalitarian groups, too. Any one of us can fall into that temptation, I suppose. However, I loved your response, and how you took it out point by point. Really well done. Or should I say… nice? 😀

IMHO, truly “nice” behavior is being nice to someone who is irate and insulting you, for something you didn’t do, because its your job to listen to their complaints. Being “nice” usually means being patient, which is ridiculously hard, even when you have to tell someone a harsh truth they don’t want to hear. I love the Boundaries books. One can have strong boundaries while still being nice/kind. When I think of a “nice” person, I think of someone being genuine and Holy Spirit filled – not “fake nice”. Fake nice and real nice are totally different things.

Love your ministry. Keep it rolling!

Maybe it is a slang issue. Why use a four letter word like “nice” when you could use a heavyweight theological word like “winsome”?

(I wonder what the correlation rate for pastors against nice but encouraging winsome at other times.)

Good grief these guys. Give me a pastor who visits the orphans and widows in their distress over those who warn about being in the hands of an angry God any day.

srs: Maybe it is a slang issue. Why use a four letter word like “nice” when you could use a heavyweight theological word like “winsome”?

Ah, Christian code words. I think pastors are so desperate writing long sermons every week that no one actually wants to hear that they have to come up with new stupid words to replace normal words. Winsome is a great example. Saying “season” instead of a period of time is another. We should compile a list of the most annoying Christianisms…

Jesus was ALWAYS nice… to the meek, the lowly, the disenfranchised, the repentent, etc. He was not, however, always nice to the religious zealots that were full of themselves. Listening to Godspell tonight I was reminded of Him addressing them as “you snakes and vipers..”.

One thing you *can* say about the TGC crowd: these are not nice people.

It’s official.

“I thought I had taught a great lesson.”

This is kris’ thesis statement.
He cares not if these kids become more like Jesus. Everything he writes here supports his thesis. Most of the information was just self validating.

1. He had youth volunteers that did his bidding.
2. He used great illustration from his own life.
3. He is a youth pastor and we are not. “If you are a youth pastor like I am.”
4. 30+ middle schoolers hung on his every word.
5. The duty of correcting this perceived lack of semantic completion was an affront to his own holiness and could no be resolved via group discussion.

Truthfully, his reaction was childish and his lesson poorly taught.

Kudos to the middle school student who believes God wants him/her to be nice to people.

logic tells me this student simply used a generic term for behavior choices like kindness, patience, generosity, selflessness. and that his/her innocent reasoning would prompt no less than actual kindness, patience, generosity, and selflessness in all their simplicity.

i’ll take my cues from this innocent 12-year old. been “loved” by christian leaders and it left me with scars.

“Why do people assume that you must stop being nice when you deliver the gospel message to others?”

Because to the TGC/Reformed crowd, delivering the Gospel is about Telling The Truth. Especially Telling The Truth To An Untruthful World. That, to their mindset, allows them (even demands) that they be harsh and confrontational. Remember also their Puritan roots. Puritans held very strongly that you had to force people to see how sinful they are and how mad God is at them before you can tell them about Jesus’s gospel. Add the two together, along with the American admiration for “straight-talking tough guys”, and there you are.

Eeyore:
Puritans held very strongly that you had to force people to see how sinful they are and how mad God is at them before you can tell them about Jesus’s gospel.

They are not generally preaching Jesus at all. They redefine gospel to mean God saving the elect and don’t talk about Jesus at all.

I both can and can’t figure out their theology. I think many leaders in that group really want to play god. Like they think if they force people to join, God will make them elect, but then they claim that you can never know who God will choose. They seem to believe in absolutes that the leaders are most definitely saved. Jesus said the “least of these” would be more likely to be saved. Since they focus so much on the OT, I am sure there’s a lot of “We’re God’s chosen people” beliefs, but they judge and declare not elect anyone that’s not a leader and even ex-communicate like they have that power (according to their own theology).

It’s so convoluted.

Daisy,

The more “authorirarian” a Chritain group, the more they “pick and choose” scripture and completely ignor verses that do not support/contradict the message they are trying to push…. I have seen it over and over and over…

‘Nice’ is a tricky word with many different potential applications. Southerners tend to think that Yankees don’t know how to be nice because the act ‘short’ and with people and don’t take the time to butter up folks. Meanwhile I learned early on how to be nice as sugar while cutting somebody to pieces into a heap on the floor, preferably in front of witnesses. Nicely, of course.

So, regardless of what the dictionary says, ‘nice’ is not necessarily synonymous with ‘kind’.

As to the illustration of a trauma nurse and how she must act. Yes, Dee’s description is right on. But sometimes one has to be ‘nice’ like the cops are nice-if the patient is on drugs or drunk for example.

I think one should act appropriately for the situation, and that is what I think Jesus did. Appropriate. One should come to the rescue of the persecuted, even if it entails not being ‘nice’ to the perps, for example. When the parents solved the issue I have described at the school where some of my g’kids were the parents were anything but ‘nice’ but it had to be done. And when the school principal told some parents to take their kids and go-that was not nice to them but it sure was kind to the remaining kids.

Personally, I would not advise anybody to mess with Jesus either then or now counting on some gentle and sweet response. That has not been my experience, don’t you know. How often have I ‘heard’ the admonition to just cut it out.

On last thing. Daisy is spot on that the demand for niceness can be used as a control mechanism to keep people in line and docile. Unscrupulous people do that just a whole lot.

But the fudies are wrong that being aggressive and belligerent and shocking and such is a necessary tool for personal evangelizing. But being a wimpy pushover willing to change the message just because somebody does not like it, or like you, is not the way either.

Truth with kindness, appropriate to the person and situation, and with the courage of a martyr-that is what I see in Jesus.

But this particular time, when I heard my student say “I think he wants me to be nice to others,” I nearly lost my mind. I couldn’t believe that this was the take-away after we spent time in the Sermon on the Mount, talking about how when Jesus said “love your enemies,”

I read this article the other day. My impression of the youth pastor was that he was a bit full of himself and his reaction was massively over the top.

Love your enemies is not so far from be nice to them, in practice.

Many New Calvinists I have met would never be accused of being loving (from your previous post) or nice. I have found many of the “chosen” to be cold and distant in interpersonal relationships; some are even mean-spirited. It comes with the territory, I suppose … Calvin himself wasn’t all that charming. Why would God want to choose such people and leave so many loving and nice whosoever-will folks out of the family of God?! Rude, condescending, and arrogant are not fruit of the Spirit … you will know them by their fruit.

Our doctor is one of the nicest folks you would ever want to meet. My suspicions that he has converted to New Calvinism were confirmed earlier this week. I hope he doesn’t stop being nice.

Christine: The youth pastor could have modeled speaking the truth with love but wasted the opportunity.

It wasn’t in him to do so.

Although he is now out of the New Calvinist loop, a lot of young pastors still desire to model Mark Driscoll’s macho man, tough dude ministry. Nice doesn’t come with that resume.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSrZVF3FEUQ

And may I say that I think that Dee’s expanded concept of ‘nice’ is a perfectly good approach to the question. Comprehensive. Appropriate. I just don’t think that a lot of people mean that when they say ‘nice’.

Philip,

At Middle School age, students begin to have agency, develop their own personal ethics. Since at that age students are generally not out in the community alone, being nice to others is often a good beginning for them, something they can begin to do on their own and take responsibility.

In schools, for example, often the Anti-Bullying Campaign swings into full force in the Middle School. In other words, for the students, as they begin to take responsibility for their interactions with others, “Be nice, be polite, be respectful” but don’t take rides or candy from strangers.

The writer/youth teacher has a point but may be missing the mark for that age.

Some here mention that Jesus was not nice to the religious leaders of his day, calling them snakes and vipers, etc. True, but that was Jesus as an adult. As a youth, different story:

At age 12, middle school, Jesus’ parents found him sitting in the Temple with teachers, listening to and asking them questions – Luke 2:46.

For Middle School age, being nice is a sensible and safe way to start to interact and figure out community, (but don’t get in the car with a stranger, or in the case of Savage, with the youth pastor).

okrapod: my oncologist is not ‘nice’ in the usual use of the words. Competent. Informed. Determined. Sure. But ‘nice’-not really. I would not respect him, given his chosen specialty and his years in dealing with what he deals with, if ‘nice’ were all that he had left to offer

My optometrist is that way. Blunt and straightforward professionalism, with no kind bedside manner. But I always leave her office feeling she was concerned enough about my eye condition to tell it like it is. I’m not sure this should transfer to Christian ministry, however.

Max: I’m not sure this should transfer to Christian ministry, however.

I tend to think that it has its place. That is how parents do, that is how schools do, that is how medical people do when necessary, that is how the cop does who pulls you over and asks to see your permit, that is how the masters do at TKD, and that is how the volleyball coach does-just to list stuff within the actual recent experience of some of my g’kids ages 12-15.

But what? It has no place in christian ministry? Well, I think it is one aspect, but would not work with the kids who have unmet needs for affirmation and recognition if that were the totality of youth ministry. Problem is, we have seen cases where the kids with said unmet needs get preyed on by predators only to ready to be ‘accepting and affirming’. I guess it gets complicated.

What Happened: “I thought I had taught a great lesson.”
This is kris’ thesis statement.

Bingo.

Benn: Daisy, do you ever listen to Rush Limbaugh, he has this throw away joke that he uses from time to time,
The end of the world came last night, women and minorities hit the hardest …..

A word to those leaders in high places, “Be ye kind one to another, tender-hearted and forgiving one another.” It costs noting to be nice and kind.

What’s Wrong With Being Nice?
https://www.crosswalk.com/culture/books/qanda-with-no-more-christian-nice-guy-author-paul-coughlin-1366977.html

Question: “What’s Wrong With Being Nice?”

Paul Coughlin replies:
What we often label as “nice” behavior is a disguise for passivity and fear.

Historically, calling someone a “nice” person has not been a compliment. It has meant “dainty,” “unable to endure much,” and “effeminate” among other adjectives.

And think about the “nice” people in your life. Do they stand up to injustice and are they truthful regardless of consequences?

Most “nice” people don’t have it in them to be righteous.

They are pleasant and amiable not because they are virtuous but because they lack virtue. We see another type of person in Jesus, who wasn’t nice but was amazingly good.

…CB (question):
You say Jesus wasn’t a nice guy. He was a good guy instead. Please explain.

Coughlin:
The Gospels show a man in near constant conflict and tension with his surroundings.

Fearful Nice Guys avoid conflict and tension, often through dishonest means.

Nice people worship at the altar of other people’s approval. Jesus did not.

Nice people when criticized often crumble and hide. Good people keep going, the way Jesus did.

Philip: Nice doesn’t describe the actions of the Good Samaritan, but agape love is closer. He went beyond nice, to actively getting involved. Again, nice is good. But love is better. That’s what I heard from the article.

That’s similar to conversations I’ve seen people have about the words “sympathy” and “empathy.”

Which is… sympathy looks at someone in trouble and says, “That’s too bad,” and keeps walking on,

But empathy looks at the same person and not only says, “That’s too bad” but actually goes over and picks the person up and does something to help.

So since when has the golden rule been omitted-as you would want to be treated-and replaced it with cultural nuances?

If I am learning something potentially dangerous, like driving as an adolescent example, I would not want to be treated nicely if it meant compromising any detail of safe driving. But if I brought deviled eggs to a covered dish thingie I would not want to hear negative comments even if they were a disaster.

So if we call all of that being nice, and an argument can be made for that, then okay. Or if we think that nice is too often a trash basket word and is better pushed aside, then so be that also.

I am sorry that the kid and the youth minister tangled It was the job of the youth minister to handle things better.

But in my family we had to take a kid out of school and homeschool her because of severe bullying while all the while our kid was what passed for nice-so nice-nicest kid you ever saw or so said the teachers, but which was actually a weakness on her part in that she could not deal with aggression as well as her older sister aka the asian tiger, who cut a swath right though it and kicked the bullies into the gutter while doing it.

Sigh. I not a genuine friend and advocate of nice, as commonly understood, as a lifestyle requirement. Too many people can get hurt that way.

Daisy,

I don’t think it’s being ‘nice’ that is the problem. It’s being insincere? Fake? I think the way you generally object to it is that nice for you tends to mean ‘pushover’.

A lot of this issue with the word nice is in the definitions. The definitions of nice seem to be all over the place. People will accuse you of not being nice when you are truthful about bad things.

Perhaps polite is a better word for some of that general manners thing. That’s where cultural differences often come in as well, as standards of politeness and manners differ. I think that’s why people are fonder of the word ‘kind’ as it implies some sort real feelings towards someone rather than simply going through the motions?

Lea,

(and I realize that was a response to the quote, not Daisy).

Nice does not have to be the *only* thing someone can be.

Coughlin: They are pleasant and amiable not because they are virtuous but because they lack virtue. We see another type of person in Jesus, who wasn’t nice but was amazingly good.

See, this is a false dichotomy. Jesus was often ‘nice’ as well as being good. Life is not a bunch of people who only have one mode! You can be many things, sometimes at once, sometimes situationally.

I can be nice to the dry cleaner and cut an abusive person out of my life.

Lea: I don’t think it’s being ‘nice’ that is the problem. It’s being insincere? Fake? I think the way you generally object to it is that nice for you tends to mean ‘pushover’.

The way “nice” is taught and socially re-enforced (especially among Christians) is generally to mean “be a doormat.”

If one means by nice “be polite” or “be civil to others” I’m okay with that.

Unfortunately, I was taught that being a girl or a woman means “being nice,” and being nice means “be a codependent doormat.”

(All of that is also mixed up with “being feminine means being nice”)

Philip,
Yes I agree that the main point of the article is that we need to go beyond nice to show love. My confusion lies in how to show love, because the way he scolded his students did not seem loving at all.

Daisy: As I was saying to you (Dee) on Twitter about this, I am fine with people being nice, and there’s nothing wrong with being nice, but.
Many Christians conflate “being nice” with codependent traits, to the point they think being assertive and having boundaries is “mean.”

But knowing TGC, they’re probably flipping in the completely opposite direction: The meaner and nastier you are, the more Godly you must be. Communism begets Objectivism.

“The Devil sends sins in opposing matched pairs, so that in fleeing one we embrace the other.”
— attr to C.S.Lewis

Florence in KY: A word to those leaders in high places, “Be ye kind one to another, tender-hearted and forgiving one another.” It costs noting to be nice and kind.

For a bunch who is always talking about grace-this and grace-that, it shouldn’t be too much to ask them to extend some grace and be nice to folks! The “tough love” message went awry somewhere. I can tell someone truth in love and still show them the love of Christ in doing so.

ishy: I both can and can’t figure out their theology. I think many leaders in that group really want to play god.

“Play god” or BE God?

Like they think if they force people to join, God will make them elect, but then they claim that you can never know who God will choose.

At which point, they have to constantly PROVE to themselves that THEY were Chosen, that THEY are Elect (and You’re NOT) — Getting Rich, having the biggest Mega, Perfectly-Parsed Utterly-Correct Theology…

Benn:
Daisy,

Daisy, do you ever listen to Rush Limbaugh, he has this throw away joke that he uses from time to time,

“The end of the world came last night, women and minorities hit the hardest …..”

I’m pretty sure Rush didn’t originate that joke. I remember hearing it (or something similar) long ago, before Rush became the latest New Messiah du Jour.

And like South Park, it’s funny because it’s true. You see that kind of misplaced priorities all over the place.

Daisy: As “nice” is understood and taught by most Christians, I don’t think Jesus was nice.

I think there is such a variety of ways ‘nice’ is taught, that the words becomes almost useless, however, I think in all the ways it is taught, Jesus was still often nice. He was *least* nice to the leaders and Pharisees, and most to the common people. It was generally fitting to circumstances. I would say turning water into wine at a wedding was a plain nice thing to do, in the most common way, while being extraordinary of course.

As I said, I think coughlin presents a false dichotomy between being nice and being good. You can be both!

Lea: This is pretty off topic, but way back before the internet was much of anything, I used to listen occasionally. You could hear stories from all over the place on the radio, without much effort. Once the internet came, you could easily read them all without commentary, or a bazillion ads. At that point, what did Limbaugh add? Little, is what I found.

At which point, his ego (expanded by his own PR) set in and he doubled down and got crazier.
You see a similar dynamic with a lot of the abusive Christian Leaders scrutinized on this blog.

Daisy: I was bullied in a professional career by an adult bully, and I did a ton of reading on workplace bullying as a result.
The experts in those books will tell you H.R. depts. will not defend you, the victim, but will defend the bully.

Because Bullies Get Things Done.
I have heard some companies actually deliberately test for and hire Sociopaths for middle management positions because not only do Sociopath bullies Get Things Done, they are so polite and submissive to top management.

Daisy: – But there needs to be room for people who have been wounded by horrible Christians, doctrines, or churches to vent their spleens without being told to be more cordial, sweet, and nice, in how they vent.

“Stay Sweet…”
— Standard pastoral advice to (female) abuse victims.

TACT = The art of telling someone to go to Hell and have them look forward to the trip.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

I have seen this first hand..

Headless Unicorn Guy: Limbaugh deteriorated over time; as he listened to his own PR boasting for too long and Entropy set in, he lost all sense of humor and much of his humanity. All that’s left is the True Believer’s total, sleepless, unsmiling concentration on The Cause.

Hmm, sort of like Ann Coulter. She went from being mildly humorous and amusing in raising some common sense points, to becoming the Kathy Griffeth of the conservative world–another nut performing extreme acts of entertainment to get the spotlight on themselves so they can sell, sell, sell (books, in the case of Coulter). This crazy world makes me want to live in a cave. And I used to like Kathy Griffeth, until she went crazier and crazier, lewder and lewder with her jokes, etc. It stops being entertaining real quick.

I never liked Rush really. He name-calls for entertainment and ratings. The more outrageous, the higher the ratings. As a pro-life feminist, I don’t like being called a “feminazi”. Mark Levin over the last few years has actually alienated his own audience by snapping on his own fans and hanging up on them. His fans on phone would actually be agreeing with him, but he’d misunderstand and think they were disagreeing and say, “Get off the phone, you jerk!” I think name-calling and acting all angry for ratings can and does backfire.

Clarification: I do like Rush the band. People get confused when I say I like Rush, because they think I’m talking about Limbaugh. Anyway, back to my cave.

Daisy: Many Christians conflate “being nice” with codependent traits, to the point they think being assertive and having boundaries is “mean.”

I so totally understand, Daisy! I have Christian extended family on my father’s side who expected me to be a doormat to my very abusive father and remain in contact with him, even though professional psychologists who study/treat for domestic violence state that going no contact is a perfectly valid thing to do to protect oneself. They were very codependent with him. One of my dad’s sisters is even a pastor and a self-proclaimed feminist, and yet paid his bail when he last beat my mom many years ago, such that he was already out and back home by the time we ourselves got home from documenting bruises with the police at the hospital. That is a scary level of codependency toward a very entitled male coming from a “feminist” female pastor.

Ironically, my extended family on that side were all into the Boundaries book–for themselves. I am not allowed to have boundaries. I am hateful and mean and unforgiving if I have boundaries to protect myself from further emotional harm from my abuser. Meanwhile, they erect boundaries that I always respect, and yet do not respect mine (such as writing to me when I ask them to please leave me alone). When one aunt said I could only write to my dad by giving her the mail first, I respected that. I wrote one last letter to him and addressed it to her home, knowing she’d read it, and had in that letter that I was going no contact because I was tired of being mistreated. She honestly expected me to have correspondence with my father with her reading my mail. No privacy whatsoever. And yet they never cared to respect my no contact boundary, and wouldn’t stop writing on and off to manipulate me to talk to him.

So yeah, the people who expect you to be nice little doormats refuse themselves to be nice little doormats. It’s always one-sided, isn’t it? And that’s your clue that they don’t believe in nice in the sense of true kindness at all. Otherwise, they’d be kind to you and respect your boundaries as well.

Lea: I think in most cases, there is a more precise, descriptive word to describe the things we are praising or dismissing than ‘nice’.

For instance, when people tell you to be ‘nice’ in order to get you to stop talking about something they, or someone else, has done to you, this is not about a problem with people being nice. It is about them being *manipulative*.

Clockwork Angel: I never liked Rush really.

His brother, David, is a nice guy and solid believer. We were neighbors and I discipled him for 4 years in the 90’s. His background is Methodist.

Lea: But this particular time, when I heard my student say “I think he wants me to be nice to others,” I nearly lost my mind. I couldn’t believe that this was the take-away after we spent time in the Sermon on the Mount, talking about how when Jesus said “love your enemies,”

I read this article the other day. My impression of the youth pastor was that he was a bit full of himself and his reaction was massively over the top.

Love your enemies is not so far from be nice to them, in practice.

Lea,

What I find most puzzling is the fact that the youth pastor was so utterly baffled that this was what the kids understood about the Sermon on the Mount. Frankly, being “nice” (walking two miles instead of one, turning the other cheek, and giving your only cloak to someone else) would be my take-away from that sermon as well!

No, today’s Christians (especially the Neo-Cal Reformed ones) say that we need to run around like little “Jonathan Edwards” clones telling everyone how much God wants them to burn in Hell! Funny how the Bible testifies to the contrary: “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9.

Our world is sorely lacking in simple kindness or niceness or whatever you want to call it. Since kindness IS one of the Fruit of the Spirit, wouldn’t it behoove us to demonstrate it in our lives?

I realize I’m using ‘nice’ and ‘kind’ interchangeably, but viewing the entire scenario from a middle-schooler’s point of view, it would stand to reason that the kid would more than likely equate the two.

dee:
okrapod,

I think it is possible to be nice and to love justice and mercy.

I agree. Jesus was kind (nice) to the Roman Centurion and healed his servant in Matthew 8, but He essentially handed the Pharisees their hineys in Matthew 23 and strongly rebuked them for neglecting the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy and faithfulness!

NC Now: Clockwork Angel: I never liked Rush really.
I listened and laughed at him all the time back in the 80s. When Reagan / Bush 41 where in office.
But after Clinton was elected he became just mean.

Patient Zero of Clinton Derangement Syndrome (negative sub-type)?

Timing kinda fits; he’d gotten established as a Celebrity, was listening to his own PR, and then outside circumstance kicks him a good one.

Around 10 years ago Internet Monk did a blogpost on “The Limbaugh-ization of Evangelicals”:
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-limbaughization-of-evangelicals
Which probably has fallout in today’s Christianese political situation, what Professor Fea of Trinity College calls “Court Evangelicals”.

What Happened: If I were a parent in the room, I would have wanted to follow Jesus example with a whip.

When somebody piously scolds you with “What Would Jesus Do?”, remind them that flipping out and throwing over tables is a Biblical option.

I can’t think of many things more destructive to a middle school kid than telling them they shouldn’t be nice. This pastor is clueless and is causing more damage than he can even begin to understand.

Most normal people know that we cannot love our neighbors or God without being nice; it’s part of the deal.

The kid gave a great answer. The pastor needs to chill out and put people before theology.

I have a suspicion that this kind of lack of fundamental compassion and empathy may be widespread in certain circles of American christianity.

At least 15 years ago I was a finalist for a job with a large and very well known Christian organization, and they flew me over 1,000 miles for more than a day of interviews. It was one of the weirdest experiences of my life. Including a grilling from a 20-something kid who wanted to know what I would do if someone demanded work from me and my team and “just didn’t care.” I said we’d do our best of course, but that I didn’t think any believer should “just not care” about other people. This person did not know how to respond to that. Looked utterly puzzled. Sort of tried to walk back their comments, but not really.

I didn’t get the job, and that’s something for which I’ve always been thankful.

By contrast, at the completely secular workplace where I now work, our CEO has said they look to hire people who are “smart and nice.”

dee,

No, but evil people use niceness and politeness to hide their actions, just like predators do.

Technically, “kind” isn’t in the Bible either. Kind is an English word. I looked up it’s origin, and it doesn’t derive from Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew either. It derives from Old English.

So “kind” is the word that translators chose because they felt it most closely resembled the meaning of the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic word that they were translating. Words rarely translate perfectly, which means that even if “nice” isn’t in the English Bible, it is really only via translator choice..

I *think* he was trying to contrast nice with godly, given that he tries to show that Jesus would not have been nice had He not healed/cured the persons completely and finishes up naming attributes that are essentially the fruits of the Spirit (whom he never once mentioned). And in “nearly losing it” he shows that said fruits need to develop a bit more in him.

As an aside, there really should be an emoji of a bearded man holding a cup of coffee to depict the pretend Calvinists. By their emoji ye shall know them.

Philip,

Me too.

Lyrics

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO
Gerry Spehar
Jesus moved to Texas, Jesus bought a gun
Filled it full of bullets in case He had to shoot someone
Jesus joined a church and started preachin’ every Sunday
The other six He built a wall to keep refugees away
Cause Jesus had investments, and Jesus had healthcare
And he didn’t want ‘em suckin’ all that money from his share
But Jesus had an iPhone and Jesus had to eat
So he didn’t mind em workin’ over there and workin’ cheap
And if they got sick or if they died, Jesus didn’t care
He just didn’t want em dodgin’ taxes and on welfare over here
What would Jesus do? …

Full audio and lyrics here:
https://kgmusicpress.com/track/1430290/what-would-jesus-do

elastigirl: kindness and generosity amongst strangers. honesty for its own sake, at personal cost. and more.

it’s not that i didn’t see it previously — it was seeing but not seeing. automatically discounting it, because how could it be real without the christian label.

When I was a Lutheran, I heard this from the pastor:

(i)”Even on my best days of kindness and doing good, it’s from mixed motives…”

Really?

And the conclusion from there is always that goodness cannot exist for its own sake and in its own ‘rightness’ as the right thing to do, it can only be sanctioned by the Christian label.

bull$#it.

Muff Potter: And the conclusion from there is always that goodness cannot exist for its own sake and in its own ‘rightness’ as the right thing to do, it can only be sanctioned by the Christian label.

He may have been talking about the doctrine of merit. That is a complex idea mostly because protestants and catholics use different meanings for the words and it is difficult to understand what is being said across that barrier. As in condign vs congruent merit. If that is what he was talking about it could easily sound like he was saying and concluding what you seem to be thinking that he was saying.

This idea has been difficult for me for along time. My problem was that a good thing is good regardless of the motives-a cup of cold water is good either way. And that is certainly true. If even you being evil know how to give good gifts–said about people being good to their children-is certainly both true and biblical and observable. But if the pastor was talking about righteousness in the contest of the doctrine of merit, then he was talking about something different. This idea is thought differently about in catholicism than in protestantism but it is not exclusively either a catholic or protestant idea.

It is a bit difficult to wade through, but well worth the effort, in my opinion.

Max,

There you go. Dismissive at the very least. Not modeled after Jesus, either.

Deb,

In my opinion, that’s heresy. It’s like the whole, you know, New Testament thing was something that happened to other people. These whack-jobs are stuck in Old Testament Hebrew patriarchy, which Jesus clearly dismantled. But why not – it’s not like they’re Christian anyway. I don’t know what to call this brand of authoritarian patriarchal cultlike nonsense – some weird mutant Judeo-something. But it ain’t Christian. They talk about Gospel this and Gospel that, but it seems like they’ve never even read the Gospels.

It seems harsh to put it this way, but it seems that simple to me. They like to complicate things with layers and layers of man-made ‘theology’. Where is Christ? Where is Jesus in their ‘theology’?

It’s so clear, but people are so bedazzled by something or other. I don’t understand why anyone gives them the time of day.

roebuck: It’s so clear, but people are so bedazzled by something or other. I don’t understand why anyone gives them the time of day.

Three words.
Shock, awe, and fear.

Pen and Pulpit twittering a rather not nice, or maybe harsh, dialogue. Unfamiliar with them, so maybe this is the norm?

It is interesting how Jesus got to the point of calling the religious leaders of his day not very nice people, well, white-washed sepulchres and other descriptions. What is the continuum of getting to that point?

Or, Paul in Acts 23:3 after he was ordered (by Ananias) struck in the face in Court: “Then Paul said to him, ‘God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit here to judge me according to the Law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck.’”

Samuel Conner: Paul: “Love is patient and kind”

Also Paul: and love is a lot more than that; read on

Jack: Ok – go to youtube and look up the following “Sesame Street”, “Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood”, “Veggietales” for some refresher training.

They all promote “love thy neighbor”,

Hey, you throw me in with a cookie-eating monster and a talking cucumber! I resemble that remark! Good thing the church has rediscovered the “gospel”! No more Mr Nice Guy! If I could do it all over, I’d tell kids god hates them and has a wonderful plan for their death…. Sorry for lying– I’m the worst liar I know up here–- but there are quite a few other retired celebrity youth pastors I never see around. Not sure they made it…….

okrapod,

Generally, I concur with you. The way we use “nice” and “kind” in the States today…they are not exact synonyms. Merriam-Webster backs me up on this (https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/kind)–they are related terms, but not synonyms.

We see this distinction in phrases like “nice guys” and “nice young ladies”. Generally, these phrases are used in proclamations like, “Nice young ladies always cross their legs,” or “Nice guys always finish last,” or “A nice Jewish rabbi would never flip tables!”

We also see it in people’s actions, which may appear nice on the surface, but are motivated by something not-so-nice, and are thus, unkind. For instance, the stereotypical/”joke” interpretation of “Bless their heart!” It might be nice (or at least what “nice” people would say in such a situation), but it’s often not very kind.

All that to say, I don’t speak Koine Greek or Hebrew, so I don’t fully understand the nuance of the words we’ve translated as “kind” in the Scriptures.

I also found these posts interesting: https://www.scu.edu/the-big-q/being-nice-vs-being-kind/
http://biblehub.com/greek/5543.htm

From that perspective, many people *would* say that Jesus is not “nice”, but I can’t imagine a person on earth who knows the basic tenants of who Jesus is and what He has done while on earth, who would deny that Jesus is “kind”.

Lowlandseer: I *think* he was trying to contrast nice with godly, given that he tries to show that Jesus would not have been nice had He not healed/cured the persons completely and finishes up naming attributes that are essentially the fruits of the Spirit (whom he never once mentioned).

Then he really got his signals crossed somewhere between brain and mouth.

Muff Potter,

indeed… my toes are still curled backwards. as nauseating as my memory of the smell of formaldehyde from 8th grade biology class.

but what is it exactly? it takes more than 45 seconds to get to the revolting content.

is it that they seemed so utterly enraptured with themselves and their own self-importance?

is it that they had the air of participating in the interview of the century, believing the audience is hanging on every word of every thought passing between their ears?

is it the histrionic hand gesturing, in a patronizing effort to stoop to the level of their adoring fans who couldn’t possibly grasp such deep things otherwise?

is it how they seemed to love the camera so rightly focussed on them and enjoy performing for it, striking a pose and tone of voice to purposely convey gravitas dressed up in false modesty?

Ken A: If I were to give to the poor and let everyone know that I was doing it. Well, Jesus says that my motive is wrong and that I already have my reward.

Yes, but he never said not to do it anyway! Even if your motives are wrong, you can still do good. Do good, until you do it for the right reasons.

elastigirl,

Muff Potter,

Who is stopping you all from doing that, and how are they stopping you from doing that? If you all explained already, I apologize, because I missed it.

elastigirl,

i’m differentiating between the concept of God and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit ‘themself’.

elastigirl: brainwashing

I can imagine how that could happen, certainly. Sorry to hear it.

okrapod: Who is stopping you all from doing that, and how are they stopping you from doing that? If you all explained already, I apologize, because I missed it.

Nobody is okrapod, I was just venting up-thread, no apology required.
I for one value greatly your perspective and wisdom about much here at TWW.

Actually, we’re a lot like Jews arguing Talmudic Mishna.
Theirs is a long history of dispute and argument on how to interpret Torah.
And in many areas, there is no general monolithic consensus, and they’re okay with that.

Such a thing is not possible in fundagelicalism, where there can only be a ‘teacher’ and ‘teachee’ relationship.
Long live TWW!

Muff Potter: And in many areas, there is no general monolithic consensus, and they’re okay with that.
Such a thing is not possible in fundagelicalism, where there can only be a ‘teacher’ and ‘teachee’ relationship.
Long live TWW!

Agree with your final point!

But I’m not even sure it’s a “teacher” and “teachee” relationship. In megachurches, there’s little or no relationship between guru and giving unit.

Wow, this is a simple lesson that a child could understand. Apparently some Christians think being mean will win them a badge of honor. It might from their like-minded comrades, but not from God.

elastigirl: i think christian culture fosters a preoccupation with oneself, a propensity to overanalyze and overspiritualize everything. as we can so clearly see in Matt Chandler and John Piper, of course.

Another major theme of Christian Monist’s book Butterflies in the Belfry, Serpents in the Cellar. There he traces it to his main theme, the influence of Platonic Dualism in the first couple centuries AD.

Darlene:
Wow, this is a simple lesson that a child could understand.Apparently some Christians think being mean will win them a badge of honor.It might from their like-minded comrades, but not from God.

I’m not sure who this is directed at, but I would argue that one can be “not nice”, while still not being mean. This is just my thinking/usage of the words, but “mean” or “cruel” would fall under the category of “not kind”, while “arrogant”, “rude” or “discourteous” fall under “not nice”.

If somebody cuts me off in traffic, I’d think, “Well that was rude,” or “that wasn’t very nice,” but if somebody calls me a hurtful name, I’d think, “That was mean,” or “That’s not very kind.”

I just read an interesting idea that people-pleased are almost inevitably “nice” people (they may be kind as well, or they might not–serial killers have been described as “nice people”), but I know plenty of truly kind, compassionate people who do not come across as “nice” because they are loud, or opinionated, or like to debate others. It goes back to the doormat issue others have discussed.

For the life of me, If there is a place of eternal torment, I can’t understand why God would send a kind person there.

Clay Crouch: For the life of me, If there is a place of eternal torment, I can’t understand why God would send a kind person there.

In order to do so (understand) you (generic you) have to suspend everything you think you believe about what is fair and just.

From there it’s easy, just huey (helicopter) Isaiah 55:8-9 out of context to give it ‘authority’, ignore your conscience, and you’re just another brick in the wall.

jyjames: Demagogues and bubble people …

… must eventually face Blog and MaBlog.

I actually agree with the Gospel Coalition this time, but perhaps not in the way that they would hope. I think some of the “nicest” behavior I’ve ever seen, that was an inch deep and not supported by genuine kindness, was the behavior emblematic of churches affiliated with…the Gospel Coalition. They had lots of phony, superficial niceness, but not kindness. They could love bomb, but there was no love, it was just a tool to lure you into their system. Of course, the sort of behavior they often exhibit is neither kind nor nice, just rude, arrogant and abusive, without even the sheen of niceness. That is what occurs when you question a leader or act like a Berean in any manner. I must say that the sudden abandonment and shunning by most of the congregation that you’d served with hundreds of hours of your time and thousands of dollars is also neither nice nor kind. Sort of leaves you with a lasting acquaintance with PTSD, which also is neither nice nor kind.

hoodaticus:
My reading of the article was that being nice was the bare minimum and that the actual standard was love, for enemies in particular. Not sure why they chose their title other than to be catchy and provocative with a deceptive bait and switch.

Take that title and run with it and you can justify a LOT of cruelty and abuse in the Name of God. That alone would mean it’s a bad title; if nothing else, Don’t Give Them Ideas. This blog is filled with posts exposing abuse justified in the Name of God.

Headless Unicorn Guy: As they say in Texas, “All Hat, No Cattle”.

Yep. All Boots and No Saddle … just smooth-talkin, long tall slow-walkin, drugstore-made-up dudes!

The Man Who Wasn’t Thursday: this exact mindset (“Jesus doesn’t want you to be nice,” “Being nice is a sign of spiritual weakness,” “Niceness is dumb,” etc.) was something I was brought up with by the Christian subculture — and which I now wholeheartedly reject.

What got you out of it?