“I am sickened by the thought that young adult or teenage girls are expected to be glorified erotic actresses playing the script of their sex hungry boyfriends.” Andy Savage
Jules Woodson and Andy Savage before the dark, dirt road.
This video has been just been released by the New York Times on their opinion page: I Was Assaulted. He Was Applauded. Jules Woodson was asked to go on the Ben Ferguson Show like Andy Savage. She was also asked by the New York Times to respond the standing ovation at Highpoint Church. She chose wisely. At the end, pay close attention to the despicable tweets that Jules received from members of Highpoint Church.
Watch Jules’ face and her words. Shame on: Andy Savage, Chris Conlee, Steve Bradley, and many members of highpoint Church. You have been exposed.
Prior the standing ovation, I tweeted that the church would do a standing ovation since it is a typical, knee jerk, ignorant attempt to manipulate people which is frequently used by abusive churches. I believe that this response was premeditated. Sadly, many unthinking people in the church were easily suckered into this phony show. One person who did not stand up and applaud said that those around him appeared irritated that he went against the grain. Maybe, deep down inside, they were a bit uncomfortable by their response?
That entire church service was shocking to me. Jules Woodson was abused by Andy Savage. She was then re-abused by the members and pastors of Highpoint Church. Instead of thoughtful words and a subdued service, indicating a minimum understanding of the gravity of the situation, the church leaders presented a raucous, circus-like show with an entertainer up front screaming that Andy Savage was *worthy.*
Savage received a standing ovation to his confession of a sexual incident with a 17 year old student in a youth ministry. Chris Conlee actually implied Jules Woodson should be on the same path to healing as Andy Savage! Seriously?. Do I really have to explain to pastors?
As I watched this mess, I wondered how a church could screw up this badly.
I was dumfounded by members of Highpoint who attacked Jules Woodson via Twitter, threatening her that they were going to expose her. Some daft lady say that she had the gift of *spiritual discernment* and that Savage was innocent of molestation. I saw dippy Scriptural *explanations* made by members who apparently don’t know the difference between a pastor and a king or between crime, sin, repentance and restoration.
HighPoint got their city on a hill moment and it was a huge fail. They should hang their heads in shame. Sadly, the New York Times got it and Highpoint Church did not. The kindness exhibited by NYT team was greatly appreciated and stood in stark contrast to Highpoint Church.
Amy Smith and I were with Jules when she was filming. They had to stop the filming at times because Jules would cry and need a break. Amy and I put our arms around her and consoled her. Where were the arms of the Highpoint Church?
The church pulled the video offline, but not before The Times saved a copy. We then viewed it with Ms. Woodson, whose reactions and commentary we taped for the Op-Ed video above. She recoils at Highpoint’s head pastor’s carefully orchestrated introduction of Mr. Savage and at Mr. Savage’s use of Christian tenets like sin and redemption to characterize his behavior and to try to absolve himself.
1
I’m glad you and Amy went to support Jules. You two are awesome!
Third……again
The pain on Jules’ face broke my heart. After all this time the hurt hasn’t dissipated. I believe you!
AS may have asked your forgiveness (via his statement) but there has never been any restitution, so closure is almost impossible.
Thank you Jules for your bravery!
Wow.
Psalms 82:1-3
GOD STANDETH IN THE CONGREGATION OF THE “MIGHTY”; HE JUDGETH AMONG THE “GODS.”
HOW LONG WILL YE JUDGE UNJUSTLY, AND ACCEPT THE PERSONS OF THE WICKED?
DEFEND THE FATHERLESS; DO JUSTICE TO THE AFFLICTED AND NEEDY.
It’s a sad thing when the world gets it but so called “Christians” don’t. Reading things like this make me ashamed to label myself a Christian too. Jules may never read this, and from me it means little, I’m sorry for what you’ve gone through and have be subjected to by Andy, Chris and the Bull off the congregation at Highpoint Church, we are not all like that.
That’s supposed to be bulk of, not bull off, I can’t spell today.
Brother Maynard wrote:
I think Jules has very much been subjected to the “Bull” of the people at Highpoint Church.
I prefer it without the correction.
A couple observations. I think it is good that this site exists and there is finally some accountability to “leaders” that had no accountability from their accountability “partners”. Insecure people that receive corrective feedback are always going to critique how the feedback is delivered. That is why the blogs are criticized by the churches and leaders that get covered here and on the SGM site.
First and foremost, crimes are crimes. It would be bad enough if we were talking about an 18-year old guy, but he was 22 or 23 I think. There was absolutely no way that this could have been considered something to handle internally unless these men were suffering from some type of strong delusion. This is very sad.
That being said…. what really bugs me with the “celebrity pastor” movement, is that the church has totally lost the concept of what it means for leaders to be “above reproach”. These complementarian churches that believe in elder rule do not seem to understand Paul’s criteria for an elder. It is not rocket science.
To be fair, I will will admit that I am in the complementarian / elder rule camp. But the question I have for all these churches that TWW has exposed is this: How many men are in your midst that really have led an “above reproach” life? How many men have not committed adultery, or manipulated people? How many men do not operate by double standards? How many men have not committed a crime like we are talking about? I’ll bet that there are a lot of men that sit in the pews that are closer to being Elder material than the rock star pastors that you worship. The problem is, these churches are corporations. They reach a certain size and there is a lot of overhead to cover. They need to keep the show going and the money coming in.
These so-called leaders will never, ever, appoint humble lay-elders nominated from the congregation. They do not want the accountability. They fear that their secrets will come out and their budgets will be scrutinized. Many men that are very qualified to lead and care for people are not writing books or dressing cool. They do not play electric guitar and they may not be the most eloquent. Oftentimes the most qualified men among us are not the most exciting. For all the talk about the church being holy…. we are not holy. We are following the world’s model for getting “ratings”.
Good job to the ladies on the blog here. I do not agree with everything the commenters post, but I am glad there is finally accountability.
PS… If you are not a complementarian….then plug in “men or women” where I said “men”. It still makes my point.
@ George:
Most people in churches have absolutely no idea what their Pastor is really like. He is really nice at church and speaks sincerely from a stage. But they will usually insist that they know him very well.
The last judgment is really going to be a real downer for these guys……and I mean DOWN.
It’s going to be interesting what Andy Savage does next. I wonder how many people have left and how many people have dug their heels in at that church that stood up and gave him an ovation.
@ Beth74:
Good point, I didn’t think of it that way.
@ George:
Good on you, George.
“As I watched this mess, I wondered how a church could screw up this badly.””
Here is what I think many are missing here. THIS IS NOT A CHURCH IT IS AN ENTERTAINMENT VENUE..
Chris Conlee comes across as effeminate.
I saw Andy Savage last night in Memphis at the Orpheum. He was there to see Wicked with his wife and their bodyguard (paid for by the church of course). I couldn’t help but chuckle during the song “Wonderful” – do you think he realized the irony?
George wrote:
I used to think along the lines of elders but never went in for the “elder rule” part, more for “elder led”. Also years ago I was not particularly concerned about the “comp” issue, I thought whatever. Unfortunately after reading so many stories of this type of total screw-up by “complementarian / elder rule” I have tossed such churches into my avoid at all costs category.
Dee & Amy, I am so grateful for your faithful friendship to Jules, in behalf of all Christians.
Jules, you done good. So very, very good. Speaking on camera must have been awful and a relief in many ways, at the same time. Nothing can undo what you suffered, but the chance to finally expose that psychopathic poseur and all his wicked enablers, will hopefully give you a boost of confidence. The truth is now on the record, may it set you free. Amen.
I’m constantly amazed at how consistently awful this church has responded every step of the way: From the manipulative opening worship song about making “mistakes,” to the “Love Works” marketing ploy, to the terribly authoritarian tone taken in the sermons afterwards, to the weird worship leader yelling “You are worthy Andy” right after he admitted to coercing a teenager to fellate him, to the dumper-fire quality interview on the radio, to the hard turn into revivialism speech to cover up the problem…it’s as if someone told them how they should respond and they decided to do the exact opposite.
It’s also telling that the response was so bad that it caused two pastors to lose their book deals, two conferences canceled, at least two more conference appearances to be canceled, one resignation, and one leave-of-absence. That takes true talent.
Jules, Rachel, Deacon Roach, and plenty more: Your responses to your situations are amazing.
Bless your heart Jules! agree 100000%!!! preach it sister!!!
@5.40… we, as a church, of all places, should be getting this right. It’s unfathomable to me, that the secular world, Hollywood, are taking a stand,the Church should have been the first group to say that “we will not allow this”. EOQ quote from Jules on NYT video
I thank God for the cleansing/purging that is going on and He is using the internet (and now media)to do so… even though the purifying is painful and ugly, and there still seems to be significant resistance from the Church leadership… the gatekeepers have lost control and are now revealing their desperation to keep their power and platform… but, there is no stopping the truth from coming out anymore…
couple of songs that I have found encouraging… recognizing that we do nothing apart from the power of the Holy Spirit… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhfg3Xah7hA (Fight Song and it’s juxtaposed with videos of wounded warriors)
and “we are not alone, God is with us” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpjDqWlAHEE
stay strong Sister! we can do all things through Him Who gives us strength (by the power of the Holy Spirit living in us!)…
Lydia wrote:
I would add that most of these celebrity pastors are self-appointed. Highpoint, SGM, many of the TGC pastors–all pastors who decided they were in charge and deserved it.
But most of them didn’t start out celebrities or with the kind of authority they often now claim. I have met many baby pastors in college and seminary who definitely wanted to be celebrities, but ultimately, they have to gain some sort of following. And I agree with Lydia that often that comes with a distancing so members can’t get to know the kind of person their pastor is.
However, I believe that the more a pastor/church preaches about the entire life and ministry of Jesus, the easier it is to see what Christians should be like. Most of these big name pastors do not preach about Jesus or rarely do.
Jules, that took a lot of strength to do what you did. You are a brave woman even though you may not see that right now, one day you will. May God shine light on your path and grant you success in whatever you put your mind to do.
ishy wrote:
Some sort of a following : Groupies, like Mick Jagger and Justin Beiber?
Thanks to Jules for enduring this ordeal and sharing the realities of what happened, and to Amy and Dee for being a support to Jules.
I hope this video will stir up compassion and conscience for those who have not seen on the face of another person the devastating impact that abuse of authority and sexual assault has. And I hope for true justice to prevail so Christians will not make light of abuse in the future.
@ Courtney:
Don’t get me started on the bodyguard/security these guys move around with. It’s ridiculous. They will tell you to trust God but they don’t.
Courtney wrote:
I think I saw a *selfie.* Well done. Why the body guards and who is paying for them?
dee wrote:
No kidding! These pastors/ex pastors think way too highly of themselves. Gees!
Jules,
I’m so sorry you have to deal with all this abuse. But thank you for being willing to share your story and expose the underbelly of the Christian Industrial Complex. I’m praying that your story helps open the eyes of churchgoers, spurring them on to hold pastors and any abusers accountable for their actions.
Courtney wrote:
Wait…bodyguard? This guy needs a bodyguard? Why? I had my house picketed by Scientology and the whole idea of a bodyguard simply never…I never…I’m completely gobsmacked.
I watched Jules’ video and it broke my heart. There was one point when I cried out, “Oh, no!” Thanks to the NYTimes for preserving the video and bringing this response. Thank you Jules for being strong enough to watch that and comment. Thank you Dee and Amy for standing with Jules.
And I do wonder what Highpoint is going to do next.
ishy wrote:
Actually, I would say they all are. ‘Celebrity Pastor’ is just about the most flamingly absurd oxymoron that I can think of. The whole megachurch/celebrity pastor thing makes evangelical churches look like carnivals. Or freak shows. Or a joke – a bad joke.
Does anyone know why Savage and Highpoint thinks he needs a bodyguard?
Jules has bodyguards just not human ones. We just can’t see them.:^)
“Beware that you don’t look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven, their angels are always in the presence of my Heavenly Father” (Matthew 18:10).
NYT: “Highpoint Church concluded an investigation of Mr. Savage this week. Its results are not yet public.”
Anyone think it’ll be a whitewash?
Jules is a courageous woman, and applaud her for sharing her painful story with the world. Hopefully, it will help to bring about a change for the better in the Church.
I agree with her that the church should be at the forefront of this movement, but instead the church is lagging behind Hollywood, a place that most of the “Christian Leaders” dismiss as the modern day equivalent of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Bodyguard?!!!!! Seriously? Perhaps to protect him from an angry person who knows what he did? Or is he just so special that “regular” people have to be kept away from him?
Abigail wrote:
Really, ‘celebrity pastors with bodyguards’. How utterly pathetic, a new low (which is saying something). Move along people, there is no Christ here…
Well done!In my mind Jules was the wounded person lying on the side of the road and Amy and Dee are the Good Samaritans who have stopped to care for her… AFTER all the religious elite have walked by hiding their faces and pretending not to see her. And this is the weird part which adds another twist to the parable… instead of caring about her wounds they protected and applauded her attacker. That still blows my mind.
Thank you, Jules Woodson, for bravely telling your story, with, I believe, Heaven applauding your courage. (And thanks to TWW and the Deebs for being her support and place to report, with, again, more applause from a Higher Place.)
George wrote:
After reflection I wanted to followup on my prior response, that is to negate much of it. While I disagreed with some of the concepts you mentioned in your post I now want to observe that we don’t need to agree on everything to agree on some important things. I’m glad you dropped in and expressed your sentiments and my earlier digression over other issues smacks of the type of divisive virtue signaling I would otherwise repudiate.
We should not have to pass some type of ideological purity test with each other before we can find common cause.
Dear Jules, you are much loved by so many who have prayed for you through this difficult time. We support you and will continue to fight for all victims of despicable abuses.
#justiceforjules
Courtney wrote:
Bodyguard? Hmm. Does he feel threatened?
Courtney wrote:
His bodyguard?! Wow! True celebrity culture indeed! What a fraud!
@ David:
Very good summary, David. Your assessment is spot on.
Mercy wrote:
Amen! What you did took great courage, Jules.
Yes my husband attended a mens conference in 2004 in north of England and the pastor had a body guard. Most definitely not a complemetarian church. Pastor is now his daughter.
Celtic Rose wrote:
Can you provide a little more context to that for us, Rose? It would help us understand what you are saying.
roebuck wrote:
It seems a lot of scammers have bodyguards, including Benny Hinn “the world’s greatest scammer.”
(See the 0:55 mark of this video)
https://youtu.be/5L2qVJDnEOE
I have a body guard–a yorkie puppy who can’t hold her licker.
Courtney wrote:
So the church paid to protect an alleged predator, but hasn’t worried about protecting his alleged victim? My stomach hurts right now.
Bridget wrote:
But it’s a great way to promulgate their status as victims.
JYJames wrote:
Amen
Thersites wrote:
Amen
Stunned wrote:
Bill. Cosby had drivers and body men and lawyers who procured & possibly drugged women for him, then helped to dispatch the victims afterward. Harvey Weinstein had a small army of enablers & procurers – some of them women. Just sayin’
Jules, your pain, lo these 20 long years later, is palpable. The reality of your young 17 year old innocent, hopeful, sweet heart being shattered during that one tremendously soul-crushing moment, is evident.
Anyone with a shred of compassion, will FEEL your pain.
Anyone blinded by a false gospel narrative, will only feel disdain towards you, Jules, and those who support you.
A false gospel narrative includes celebrity pastors, lucrative speaking and book deals, standing ovation and cries of “Hosanna! You are worthy!” Can you imagine the Apostle Paul selling his anointed letters? If God gave you a word worth writing to help and aid the Body of Christ, do you really think He intends it to be for your personal lucre? If God gives you a word worth speaking, do you think he wants you to hold a conference where you charge hundreds of dollars to tell it to a select few? Did Apolatle Paul give away a few books with the anticipation that you would recommend them to your congregation and friends to purchase? Did the Apostle Paul travel with body guards or was he willing to be imprisioned for righteousness sake (he did not force a girl to perform an illicit sex act, he was imprisoned for preaching Jesus crucified and resurrected)? Did the Apostle Paul allow accolades to be directed towards himself? Did he double dip his preaching and writing, earning double and triple for his efforts?
The NYT nailed it. They saw in Jules a girl who is being treated, currently as well as lo those many long years ago, unrighteously. It SHOULD BE THE CHURCH who rose up to expose the sin, the sinner, the errors, the wrongs. It SHOULD BE THE CHURCH who interviews Jules – righteously – unlike Andy being interviewed by his BFF on the radio.
Where is the true gospel in this?
A shattered heart is not fixed by the passage of a day, a year, 20 years or a lifetime. Andy has done nothing to right the wrong, The church leadership has done nothing to right the wrong they, themselves, perpetrated and continue to perpetrate. The church members are doing nothing.
The NYT and wee women bloggers, on the other hand, are being the hands and hearts who reach out to support the dear girl so horribly abused then and now.
Jules, I’d give you a big grandmotherly bear hug if I could. And tell you that the Lord God truly loves you and cares about you. He loves you so much that He was willing to veil His heavenly glory to come to earth as a baby, to show you true sacrificial love. These men? They don’t have an iota of understanding or compassion. They know not the Truth. If they did, they would be broken over their actions towards you. I am thankful you have the love and support in real life of Dee and Amy, who indeed exemplify the love of God. Jules, you are amazing and brave.
“I was dumbfounded by members of Highpoint who attacked Jules Woodson via Twitter, threatening her that they were going to expose her.” (Dee)
Do you reckon that the members have realized yet that ‘they’ were the primary reason the world turned its attention to this awful matter … with their standing ovation heard ’round the world? One very bad behavior by the pulpit became capitalized by the pew.
Fae Dee’s post:
I know what you mean, but to put it another way, it’s anything but sad that the NYT got it. It means the “world” is ready to step in and set an example for “a church” when the latter doesn’t know how to behave.
Perhaps these leaders should consider what A.W. Tozer said years ago, “I think it is very good spiritual advice that we should never tie ourselves up to public opinion, and never accept any successes we may have today as being due to our superior gifts.” Remember, Jesus received honour when he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, but then returned to serving and teaching his disciples, and a week later the same people who shouted ‘hosanna’ were calling for his crucifixion. Peter made a weak attempt at acting bodyguard, lopping off an ear, but Jesus would have none of it. He had legions of angels at his command, but nothing would deter him from accepting the cup His Father had asked Him to drink. Praise God!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
The world is always looking for an opportunity to cast the church in a negative light. Seldom do they have anything good to say about the great good churches do. But you give them an opening to proclaim “See, there’s nothing to it!” and they’ll run with it. It’s sad that the organized church continues to give them so much fuel for their fire. But, as you note, if bad behavior is not properly dealt with in the church, we can rely on the world to drag it out of us.
This church won’t see what it did was wrong. They live in a closed world. I think it was the Enron scandal that coined the “smartest man in the room” syndrome. Where groupthink takes over and everyone reinforces everyone else that a wrong action is right.
This closed community is fully indoctrinated and beyond any sort of hope. Their community is their everything, family, friends, support network. Jules describes this and you can see how it becomes a force multiplier on top of the crime that was committed. Pain of isolation on top of the humiliation.
George wrote:
And very good ones they were too, if I may say so.
It struck me in particular, reading your post, how much truth there is in the statement that these business have forgotten what it means for an elder to be above reproach. Instead of appointing older, wiser people (and specifically, men, if they so believe) whom nobody can justly reproach, they appoint feudal overlords against whom nobody is allowed to reproach, no matter what their behaviour.
Jack wrote:
Good assessment of the reality of this mess.
Max wrote:
Christianities are still in the majority in North America Many of us in the “world” are or were Christian. Including a good portion of journalists, cops, social workers, judges, lawyers and others who report & investigate these crimes. The movie “Spotlight” showed that there is often no joy in bringing justice to a community you trusted to do the right thing.
I don’t think the Deebs dance with glee every time a victim comes forward.
Jack wrote:
Exactly.
Courtney wrote:
Wonderful lyrics:
“I’m here
Respected – worshipped, even
Just because the folks in Oz
Needed someone to believe in
Does it surprise you
I got hooked, and all too soon?
Wonderful
They called me “Wonderful”
So I said “Wonderful” – if you insist
I will be Wonderful–”
And they said “Wonderful”
Believe me, it’s hard to resist
‘Cause it feels wonderful
They think I’m wonderful”
Bad actors would not be in the pulpit if the pew didn’t keep them there.
Jack wrote:
We will never know how many tears they have shed. TWW provides a great service to the Body of Christ, to inform and warn. They ‘are’ the Church, while much of the church is not.
@ Jack:
Morton-Thycol. That group think and peer pressure blew up the Challenger Rocket.
@ Jack:
Morton-Thycol. Their group think and peer pressure blew up the Challenger Rocket.
roebuck wrote:
I meant that in contrast to mainline denominational pastors which are appointed and often have fairly rigorous and regular evaluations and accountability. There aren’t many of those who are big names, but there are a few, such as was Tim Keller when he pastored Redeemer Pres, which is PCA.
Many of the pastors we see on TWW founded their own churches outside of denominations, and in the case of SGM and Grace, created their own denominations from those. They all have similar characteristics in that there is very little in the way of top-level accountability and pretty much no way to remove the founder.
As most SBC churches are supposed to be autonomous, they often have little accountability, too. However, SBC churches were congregational and run by member vote, but the New Cals have quickly done away with that as we’ve seen over and over here.
Here is another case of pastoral abuse and corruption from the Brooklyn Taberancle.
Jim Cymbala has mad a name for himself by selling books with dramatic testimonies. Yet most of them are fabricated and false. Here are three stories of corruption and abuse of woman under Jim Cymbala and his childhood best friend Dan Iampaglia.
Roberta Langella’s Story
https://theauthorofmyfaith.org/2016/10/16/the-story-behind-the-story-of-roberta-langella-and-jim-cymbala-part-1/
https://theauthorofmyfaith.org/2016/10/28/in-robertas-own-words-the-story-behind-the-story-of-jim-cymbala-and-roberta-langella-part-2/
https://theauthorofmyfaith.org/2016/11/21/update-unintentional-sin-and-final-thoughts-on-the-story-behind-the-story-of-roberta-langella-and-jim-cymbala/
https://theauthorofmyfaith.org/2018/03/08/fifteenmonthslater/
Dawn Robinson’s Story – Dawn escaped from the South Tower on 911 only to be exploited by an abusive pastor.
https://survivor911blog.wordpress.com
The Takeover of Rock Church NYC by Jim Cymbala and Daniel Iampaglia
https://rockchurchtakeover.wordpress.com
Case against Dan Iampaglia (And Jim Cymbala) Video documenting the attempted takeover of Rock Church. In this video Dan Iampaglia Jim Cymbala’s best friend told a five foot woman “I WIll SLAM YOU”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6b6QzHdc_o
Jack wrote:
I believe that’s true for most members, but I think many of these leaders are quite aware and intentional about being wolves. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians are just really gullible.
@ Julie Anne:
So are you. So glad all of us are starting to break through the cone of silence.
Sandra wrote:
I know!! That was evident the first time I spoke with her. She is real, through and through.
Brother Maynard wrote:
She is reading each and every comment and is so grateful for everyone who expresses concern. She is finally feeling the love many years after she was told to *shut up.*
Jack wrote:
If only people could see the nights when I can’t sleep because I am so upset by what I hear and write about. Yet God compels us to continue and we will.
Max wrote:
The *world?* ??? I am not *the world.* I am a devoted Christian. If it wasn’t for Christians who are victims’ advocates these stories would stay hidden within individual churches. It has taken 9 years of me stomping my feet to get churches to listen. And guess what? Many still will not do so. There is evil in the church and it must be exposed.
Maple Lady wrote:
Love this quote!!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You nailed it!
Max wrote:
Did you see the tweets at the end of the video. The tweets directed at Jules and the rest of us were sickening. We had to report one former pastor of Highpoint who threatened to *bash our faces in with a hammer.* His Twitter account got shut down.
@ Remnant:
Love your comment. I know Jules saw it.
dee wrote:
Exactly what Jesus did when he was here on Earth.
dee wrote:
Glad to hear. It’s from my heart to hers. Even though I say with many words what others can say with a line or two. Smile.
Why the heck does a pastor need a bodyguard?
dee wrote:
That line speaks volumes about the wisdom (lack of it) of church elders at Highpoint regarding staff selection.
Priscilla wrote:
To make His Great Importance clear to all Lowborn.
(As well as a threat of Enforcers if the Lowborn ever step out of line.)
dee wrote:
One-upping “Punch ’em in the Nose” Driscoll in Manly-manness, was he?
dee wrote:
Remember the Proper Christianese Code Phrases, My dear Wormwood:
“The World(TM)” is EVERYONE outside of Our One True Church.
The Other.
THE ENEMY.
Jack wrote:
Only in these churches’ Official Party Line.
Get a load of this:
C. J. Mahaney Withdraws from T4G
Following Rachael Denhollander’s Sovereign Grace claims, the former SGM president once again says he wants to avoid distracting from the biennial conference.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/march/cj-mahaney-withdraws-t4g-conference-sgm-rachael-denhollande.html
Priscilla wrote:
Short answer – he lives in Memphis, #4 on Forbes’ “Most Dangerous U.S. Cities”. It might also have something to do with his wealth being publicized in Memphis media, or threats by radical church folks within and without Highpoint, or to repel a rush of humanity to get his signature and a selfie.
It’s not uncommon for celebrity pastors to have body guards. I suspect the T4G elite will be accompanied by armed bodyguards at their upcoming conference in Louisville. All of this has nothing to do with protecting them because they are a threat to the devil for preaching the gospel.
@ roebuck:
From the article of your link: “The leaders concluded, “For everyone reading this, we hope you realize that SGC, its pastors, and its members share a hatred of the sin of sexual abuse and a commitment to protecting against it.”
Evidence? Action? or just dead words that cover up something completely different in practice.
dee wrote:
Certainly! You prove your Christianity to me every day!! My comment was not directed at you, but at news outlets like the New York Times, CBS, ABC, etc. which have commented on the Savage saga. You, as a Christian, are right to use the resources available to you to expose evil in the church. My use of “world”, as also used in Scripture, is anything which falls outside the Kingdom of God. As Nick noted upstream, the “world” often steps in to help expose that which is wrong in church … even they sometimes have a better grip on what’s wrong and right than the church.
JYJames wrote:
Clearly the latter 🙁
Thersites wrote:
Great comment! My sentiments too. I couldn’t care less what your (generic your) sexual orientation is, who you voted for, how you feel about infant baptism, or how you do Communion, if we have common cause, we have common cause.
As been shared before, one other thing that Andy Savage did in this video is call his position in TX as being “on staff” when other places he claimed to be “youth pastor.” When trying to to talk his way out of what he did or make it seem like an action among equals then claim you were just on staff vs. being a youth pastor. A sad tactic. How sad to see Savage do this.
Also his repeated saying of 20 years ago people have said had the effect of people thinking he was 20 years old when he did then when Savage was actually a few years older than that. Thus another attempt to try and make it seem like something done between two equals vs. the power dynamic that was really there.
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
Assuming the guy with Andy truly was a bodyguard, I’d say the reason he needs a bodyguard and you do not, Deana, is because you are not a coward.
dee wrote:
The guy has loaded his own Karma.
One way or another and in a hundred different outcomes, it will not play out well for him.
dee wrote:
I think Max was referring to the NYT, not you, Dee.
dee wrote:
Dee, I hope you didn’t just report him to twitter. This is something that should be reported to the police.
@ Max:
“Do you reckon that the members have realized yet that ‘they’ were the primary reason the world turned its attention to this awful matter … with their standing ovation heard ’round the world? One very bad behavior by the pulpit became capitalized by the pew.”
I doubt that very much. Many of them still blame the primary victim.
dee wrote:
When we start to see the truth then we need the Lord’s strengthening all the more. You are in our prayers along with those who have been hurt by the false church.
Max wrote:
Doubtful. But one day i expect a book to be published with the title, “The Ovation that Brought Down the House”:
dee wrote:
Good. He was vicious.
Pretty soon, The WW is going to have to add another shift just to keep up with the work load.
/www.rawstory.com/2018/03/oregon-church-leaders-told-rape-victim-blame-wore-tank-top-front-pastor/
https://nypost.com/2018/03/07/pastor-indicted-on-47-charges-related-to-child-sex-abuse/
I hope this isn’t hurting you, Jules. This is the kind if tweet that should get folks banned.
https://twitter.com/serverlessm/status/972523514770149377?s=21
Law Prof wrote:
Yes, indeed.
Geoff Smith wrote:
The Tennessee legal system calls a pastor an “authority figure.”
Geoff Smith wrote:
From the article:
“They said church leaders, including Senior Pastor Scott Nelson, covered up the abuse and forced them into silence through patriarchal pressure … One of the board members is a Keizer police officer, but he did not report the abuse … Sgt. Bob Trump continues to serve on the board of directors …”
There’s been an outbreak of “patriarchal pressure” in the American church!!
“three Sunday services in a 1,200-seat auditorium”
Good Lord, didn’t someone know this was happening?!!
Geoff Smith wrote:
“”In their very nature the charges are appalling,” Tipton County Sheriff Chief Billy Daugherty said. “Given the fact that the suspect the alleged offender in this incident is a pastor someone that we trust someone that we worship with on Sunday. Somewhere where we send our children is egregious, it’s behind disturbing.” The Awakening Church is now closed and there is a “For Lease” sign in front of it.”
http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/37661977/former-atoka-pastor-accused-of-rape-arrested
Steve240 wrote:
Which is obviously not repentance and not taking responsibility.
Steve240 wrote:
Which indicates that there is a 20-year trail of evidence, since he has never taken responsibility with an “I am responsible for what I did,” repentance, rather than talking around what he did with words like, “incident” and “consensual” and “college student”, etc.
There are tweets from patrons of his subsequent ministries that indicate unsettling red flags during those 20 years (evidence of someone not to be trusted in ministerial authority over minors, or even being alone with minors).
@ Max:
Another Sandusky. The neighbors said they knew he was a pastor, married, and they had boys over to their house a lot. Boys that needed a father figure, so the neighbors thought the pastor was doing humanitarian good. Not.
@ dee:
Jules, I can only imagine how hard it was for you to tell anyone, let alone men, how you were treated. I am so glad you spoke up then and now. I respect your courage and appreciate you shining light on the hidden mess. HP has gotten a spiritual CT scan and it looks hospice appropriate. Again, you showed courage at great personal cost. May you find further healing and know there are way more that see this for what it is than are buying the smoke and mirrors. Stay real. I thought Dee paid you a powerful compliment. To be hurt and stay real is no small thing. Abusers apparently know nothing of real and true. You are appreciated by many believers who are horrified and appalled at how the “church” is acting in so many places these days!!
___
“Whatz Dat Smell?”
hmmm…
Andy Savage: “ I hate manure…” (1)
—
(1) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7xPBHn7Cblk
;~)
– –
Jules,
You’re not just a brave voice on behalf of yourself, but also for many other abused women and girls. Your tears and truth will minister to others. I’m so pleased that the NYT gave you this opportunity to respond and you did it wonderfully.
Psalm 126:5-6 (NIV)
Those who sow with tears will reap with songs of joy.
Those who go out weeping, carrying seed to sow, will return with songs of joy, carrying sheaves with them.
Forrest wrote:
Funny thing is that people like this cowardly little boy take shots at Jules while hiding behind his Twitter handle while Jules is out there in public with her name and her life on display, knowing full well getting this evidence out would bring out deluded people who worship their pastor, crazy people, and evil people all in alignment against her. And yet still there she is.
Wonder if the leaders at Highpoint church, who went out their way to compare bloggers who sought to support the truth to the devil, ever thought about condemning, strongly, anyone who would assassinate their character or Jules’s via social media for doing nothing more than telling the truth about one of their own? Wonder if they’ve made a public statement from the pulpit about their ex-staffer who said it would be a god thing for bloggers to be attacked in the face with a hammer?
Wonder is Jules has a bodyguard? Wonder if anyone at Highpoint ever thought of using church funds to pay for a bodyguard for her, the victim, rather than Andy, the perp?
Is there anything Christian about this—other than Christianese words and a cross in the sanctuary and nominal use of God’s name to support the building of an empire which makes man like Savage affluent? Does anyone now still wonder what was meant by the Lord inspiring the words “having the form of godliness, but denying the power?”
okrapod wrote:
There May be a few brave souls who leave because they see they are being manipulated, but in my experience, what people are emotionally invested in, they typically defend or rationalize. Besides the actual abuse, that is especially demoralizing to the victims.
@ Law Prof:
The twitter feed of that tweet does not look like someone immersed in Highpoint but an activist troll that wants every NRA member investigated by the gov and thinks Dylan Farrow lied.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia wrote:
It’s generally true. And when they do so, people prove what they’re all about. Are they just into the system and the friendships so-called—or are they into Jesus and the truth? And on the whole, it may be a good thing, when they stay, because it keeps such people away from actual Christian fellowships where they might do some damage by chasing celebrity and superficial, nominal Christian life—because if those people, the types who live in worlds of rationalization, were at a generally healthy church, there’d be great pressures put on it to become a celeb-worshipping fellowship which attracts abusers like Conlee and Savage, Driscoll and Furtick, Dollar and Copeland.
Lydia wrote:
I agree. Just some nut who probably abused more than a few young ladies in his past, has little understanding of women or decency, and wants to rationalize his own ugliness and so hates on any victim who goes public, because if his victims ever went public, it’d probably be the end of him. Again, just some nut.
Deborah wrote:
Brilliant analogy!
Now let’s wait and watch that manifest.
For some reason I am not seeing tweets in the article or video. She did a great job!
@ Law Prof:
It’s gotten worse, in some outwardly ways, in many of these young celebrity churches. If these young celebs want to take credit for disciplining their followers and modeling godliness, they need to take responsibility for their followers behavior, too.
My spiritually abusive age group was different. They turned on you with meaningless platitudes, passive aggression, marginalization and manipulation. They were always “sad” for you and wondered what was going on in your life to make you think such things about such godly men while they Institute a whisper campaign about your emotional stability and wanting to “help you”. Do you know how many people fall for that drivel never seeking both sides? It was much more deceptive —-and it worked. They would not be caught dead saying they wanted to hammer your head in.
Frankly, I will take the hammer guy if I have those two choices. I know exactly where he stands and will file a complaint or restraining order. And remind him I am trained in personal security for me and my family.
@ Bridget:
Jules – I’m so sorry you have had to deal with this for 20 years. Why didn’t your parents step in the report it to the police? Why did it take 20 years for you to contact him? He says he asked you for forgivess as well as your family. Did you tell him to forgave him? Did he know you had not forgiven him until recently. Has he contacted you to try to help you? Or have you contacted him again? I would really love to know those answers. I too would love to see you healed.
Lydia wrote:
Had it happen to me also. It’s truly hellish behavior. And decent, wise people would not fall for it. Foolish, blinded people who are no longer listening to the Lord or never cared to fall for it. Many of the whisper campaign crowd at the neocalvinist church where I was an elder, who believed those whispers against our family spread by leadership, have, in the six years since the church finally imploded under the weight of abuse, proven themselves to be neither Christian nor decent human beings. Some have turned to atheism, others to the New Age, others have gone back into places like SGM and doubled down on the hatred for God’s people.
Do not assume people who buy into that stuff are just misguided, but otherwise decent people. The decent ones will either stand by you and face the consequences (we’ve done that some) or will come to you afterward, after the dust has settled, and apologize and repent (unfortunately, we’ve fit more often into this less ethical category).
Anyone know how Highpoint/Chris Conlee responded this morning to the NYT video?
Lydia wrote:
Ironically, the scapegoat is always the most emotionally and spiritually aware person/people in the group.
@ steve:
Steve…I was so sickened and upset when I heard that about Cymballa a few years ago. As a child, I was surrounded at home by the beautiful worship music of Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir. To find out the church’s leader has been an abusive and dishonest shepherd was so disappointing. I keep in mind the Lord knows who the sheep and goats and who the wheat and the tares are. May He bless those who bring abuse to light, comfort the afflicted,and purify His church.
Law Prof wrote:
Ever heard of “Let Bubba Do It” with Plausible Deniability?
Andy Savage has surrounded himself with men who have given him poor unwise counsel his whole adult life. It appears to me that his circle of friends are those who have allowed the world to squeeze them into a worldly mold instead of transforming their mind with the Word of God. His actions with a 17 year old young lady under his care in a youth group were unethical , shameful, and a crime . This ‘boys will be boys’ attitude is dangerous especially when more mature men who claim to love Mr. Savage allows his type of behavior to lay hidden and buried among a poor view of who man is vs a Holy God and blame the victims. Had anyone one else looked at Andy Savage’s mission statement and see clearly what Andy and his circle of friends believe pass for godliness? Andy thinks quote “Making God make sense “ is an awesome , spiritual mind blogging , incredible statement ! Who thinks they have the power to make God do what they want and and make God make sense ? Can the creator say to the creator I’m making you make sense to these poor pathetic people who I minister to because I am smarter than they are and you God just don’t make sense to them therefore, My mission in life is making you God make sense! That’s blasphemy! And to think all his wise counsel of men Andy surrounds himself with didn’t catch that phrase , sets under him with adoration , buys his man made books, and even will give a standing ovation when his sin is voiced for all to hear ! Even his praise band at his church will work the crowd up into a frenzy of emotional trance while taking the Holy most high name in vain and substitute land shout we love you Andy Savage ! Kind of remindes me of bull worship that was popular in Egypt during Moses times when the crowd followed AAron instead of God . Syncretism a combing of different beliefs , blending practices of various schools of thought , traditions , theology , mythology of religion which will add so much value to a church service and will bring the people in to worship ! We have the idol Andy Savage and the co-pastor in a church where ever facet of a service is orchestrated with the intentions of being cool hip and inviting . We know how to set the mood and Make God make sense !!! Trust us to lead you we know we just know ! Sadly Jules has experience where someone like Andy Savage will lead if you follow him . And Andy Savage has seen the end of the path his wise counsel men have taken him and it isn’t pretty ! Follow only Christ and him cruicified . The Holy Spirit will be the one to give sense out a Holy God and not a mere man ! Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand . Christ is returning soon .
Law Prof wrote:
Andy is Highborn (God’s Anointed), and a Man.
Jules is Lowborn and a WOMAN If not a Witch).
Mary Ann Carpenter wrote:
A SORCERER, a Master of Mighty Magick who Summons, Binds, and Controls the spirits and other supernatural forces.
@ Mary Ann Carpenter:
Good commentary, Mary Ann!
emily honey wrote:
We should all take a moment to process that. Very interesting to think about. My first question is why? Because that person may not even realize it at the time. Is it because that person did not fully pledge allegiance to the group? Did that person have prior experience that helped them recognize red flags?
I always found it especially deceptive the leaders and their followers immediately put a spiritual spin on their covert aggression when someone dared question or disagree. It seemed over the top, to me. Unnecessary.
@ Law Prof:
So very true.
Lydia wrote:
Thanks for checking on this and putting it in context. I have to check my self and not get excited over inflammatory comments or tweets and characterize them as emblematic of either side of an issue. It is another part of the online squalor that many absurd and insulting comments come from trolls or are false flag operations. The facts alone indicate Highchurch is bad enough, we don’t need to give them reason to misidentify themselves as victims.
@ Law Prof (and Lydia):
I find that self-identifying Christians fall into two categories:
“Category zero” – the honourable exceptions;
Category one: superciliously judgemental (“You’re just in sin/error/the flesh/working it out in your intellect”);
Category two: condescendingly judgemental (“Well, I suppose it’s understandable because you’ve been hurt”)
Sadly, I’ve passed a critical point – a kind of ecclesiastical Karman Line – whereby I have to draw so much strength from outside of christian circles just to sustain association with a christian community, for the little meaning I derive from hanging around professing christian circles, that attending manifestations of church actually draws me away from anything of the sort.
The practical upshot of this is that when I attended hospital to get an ECG the other day and the duty nurse asked if I followed any religion, I said: No.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I don’t follow church anymore, either. Still love Jesus, still haltingly and inadequately follow Him. But church? Forget it. I want fellowship with the remnant who actually love Jesus and hate lies and hypocrisy and abuse. I tell students openly about my faith. When they sometimes excitedly approach me after class and say “My dad or uncle or whatever is a pastor!” my face compresses slightly and I tell them I won’t hold it against them.
@ Thersites:
@ Thersites:
It’s hard to understand the purpose but there are activist trolls who flame on purpose to get certain reactions. This one had something like 8 followers and following 28. A red flag. Twitter is also shadow banning, unverifying lomg time tweeters and censoring like crazy. It’s become quite Orwellian.
@ Law Prof:
I can relate. I know it sounds paranoid but I have passed the rubicon and now wonder that no matter where I might attend what corruption I might be indirectly supporting. I am not one of the ignorance is bliss types. It has gotten that bad and it’s not worth it to me. And strangely enough, I have come across other such sojourners. One called me this morning and we telephonically felowshipped. 🙂
In the end, it’s been far more interesting to simply be a believer in the world.
Lydia wrote:
Curious, so it’s a red flag if you’re following a lot more than are following you?
Lydia wrote:
Yep.
Law Prof wrote:
From Twitter rules:
“Aggressive following is defined as indiscriminately following hundreds of accounts just to garner attention.”
We are talking hundreds and the troll in question was only 28 but following a lot of accounts while having few followers is often an indication of “Aggressive Following” that is used by spammers and trolls.
Law Prof wrote:
No. Both totals based on amount of tweets over time with subject matter. There isn’t enough there, there, if you get my drift. My guess is troll with multiple accounts. There are even people paid to do that (just like paid protest agitators) or bots created for it, believe it or not. It’s not an exact science but you pick up on it after a while.
Courtney wrote:
Bodyguard?? Hubris…
Lydia wrote:
Sounds like a troll, someone deliberately trying to stir up trouble. These types are best ignored.
___
Saved By Grace: “Wiping Away The Years Of Tears, Perhaps?” (1)
hmmm…
Q. Wartburg, respectfully, could you please explain why your current blog sexual abuse victim is, after twenty years, —is now confronting her Texas 501(c)3 Christian cleric abuser; i.e. what is their present motivation and anticipated end result, and what will satisfy her current efforts?
ATB
Sòpy
—
(1) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AIHrtKJGgVI
;~)
–
@ Muff Potter:
Hey Muff, came across something last night I think you might enjoy. Clemson prof on Rubin Report talking John Adams. it’s a different angle.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C52ZqjibU1M
Ron Oommen wrote:
Good observation. This was one of the elements present 20 years ago that is still in play today.
When “20 years” is mentioned, question: How many more years?
There are more mentioned above, i.e., talking one’s way around, instead of straight up admission, in “repentance”.
Jules’ story is as relevant today as it was back then. And someone recently resigned over this fact.
Mary Ann Carpenter wrote:
Your entire comment, Mary Ann Carpenter, illuminates this misguided spiritual leadership, and then you end with the truth. Thank you!
JYJames wrote:
Savage might as well have said, ” Hey, it wasn’t my fault. Sometimes stuff just happens!”
BD wrote:
Prolly so some onery ole woman like me can’t walk up to him, kick him in the groin, and call it an organic moment.
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
HA!!
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
“incident” “organic” says the youth pastor coward:
– He said he would take a minor youth group girl home
– He said he had a wonderful surprise for this girl
– He drove her down a dark dirt road, bait and switch
– He took her into a forest alone at night in the dark
– He pulled out his private, asked her to Go Down on him, more bait and switch, the “surprise” the youth pastor had for the young girl in the youth group.
That’s as far from “stuff happens”, or “incident”, or “organic” as it gets. No truth in subsequent 20-yr-old twisted statements against the stark facts of what actually happened.
How can clergy leadership and church members with conscience support this?
“Celebrity Christianity creates a culture wherein we mistake a person’s public persona for their character and create protective cocoons around leaders that shield them from critique in their work and their personal life. When one’s experience with the divine is tied up in a fallible person, the place where Jesus begins and that person ends become indistinguishable.” – Brandi Miller https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-miller-christian-celebrity_us_5aa59302e4b07047bec7aad2
Dear Jules. Thank you for your braveness. I’m 60 years old. When I was 14-15, I attended a Baptist church youth group in England. I had a similar experience with my youth group leader, offering to drive me home in his Mini, but he would stop in a car park near my home, kiss me and heavily but he seemed to know not to ” overstep the mark” This happened several times. I had no idea I thought it was normal. He is now a massage therapist. There is no statue of limitations in England. But I’m overseas, where would I start? Andy Savage’s response makes me so angry, so angry. Pure theatre. Basta. ENOUGH.
Cheryl
JYJames wrote:
Think you just answered your own question, i.e., “with conscience”.
Andy Savage & all his ‘wise counsellors’ come out terribly from this whole debacle. The fact that he really appears not to have any genuine understanding of what he did to Jules herself, rather than against his ideal or image of his ‘purity’ shows how deeply narcissistic he is. Jules wasn’t a person, she was a temptation or a trial, just a spiritual prop in his journey. And a bodyguard? Give me strength.
This is a prime example of Hevangelicalism, where those who endlessly spout how they put God first are actually worshipping at the idol of their own inflated masculinity.
Jules – well done for bringing this into the light, though I know it will have cost you dearly. I run a Youth Team & I would have bounced his arse off our team after the ‘tickling in the bedroom’ incident so fast he wouldn’t have known what hit him. In my current job he’d also have to get past my Senior Manager who, although slight, is a force of nature. Your story, as with others, reminds me of my responsibility to weed out those who are just not suited to working with young people, no matter how wonderful they consider themselves to be.
JYJames wrote:
Just heart-rending, makes you want to cry. Her innocence was really exploited, what choice could she possibly have here? This was obviously something premeditated, with malice aforethought, as the Bible and our legal system puts it, she was in a place where no one could hear her or come to her aid, she trusted the guy, had little reason to think otherwise.
The thing that probably makes me the angriest is how he said he thought there was no lingering issue between the two of them. How could he not? And even when he publicly confessed, if you really call it that—which I don’t think a person in good conscience could—it was only after she went public. This was not a brave man making a public confession of a private thing—it was a man engaged in damage control because he’d been outed.
The thing that strikes me as the most ugly aspect of this is that although she gave him every opportunity to salvage his reputation by emailing him in private (and why she gave him such an opportunity is beyond me, it was pure unwarranted grace), he couldn’t even bring himself to reply a single “I’m so sorry”. Nothing. I guess she was a nonentity to him, something that he hoped would just go away.
JYJames wrote:
“The pitfall of Christian celebrity culture is that leaders, in talking about Jesus, are often followed as if they were Jesus or as if their words are infallible or beyond critique.”
If they talk about Jesus at all. I think most talk about themselves more.
I finally took a deep breath and watched the Andy Savage apology video, the one on the NYT website with the commentary by Jules. Not easy to do (cannot imagine what it’s like for her, maybe like having your soul ripped open), because I’ve heard insincere apologies before in that pseudo-profound preacher voice and they make me sick, as in feeling like vomiting.
Anyway, it was the worst I’ve ever heard. The absolute worst. Utterly, completely insincere and self-serving. He should be thanking God in His grace that the roof didn’t cave in on him right there. In my opinon, that guy is an absolute fake, a total self-obsessed fraud, and any adult at Highpoint who’d stay around after hearing that and watching Chris Conlee sit there on stage with the fake concerned father look on his face, is absolutely begging for abuse and is out of their mind.
__
Spirit & Truth: “To Trust, To Cling, To Rely On?”
hmmm…
Q. Why has the harmonious & homogenized comment section here apparently filled up with degrees of pessimism and cynicism? Since when did Christianity become about the workings of man made 501(c)3 non-profit organizations? God’s promises are yea, and amen. Jesus never changes, He is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He prepares a path for all that believe in Him. If one would only ask of Him, will He not consider one’s plight and bring aid in the desperate hour of need?
ATB
Sòpy
—
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLTKNPn6Epd2oGpeTZFzIOgazW_AtQUAe4&v=xvGF3qhljzM
;~)
– –
Sòpwith – In Spirit & Truth… wrote:
Yes! 1)Ask, 2)receive, 3)ever grateful. [No middleman (middleperson).]
Lovely song. Thanks for sharing.
@ Lydia:
Watched the vid. It was good. The take away for me was that morality exists and stands on its own completely independent of any religious system. I was also impressed that Adams wrote on the divergent paths of virtue and vice with a sagacity far exceeding his 21 years.
Law Prof wrote:
I sincerely believe that AS read his prepared “confession” because he was afraid that if he simply spoke it, he might have slipped up and made a true confession.
Sòpwith—Clarification Requested… wrote:
Read Leon Uris’s novel QB VII.
Though the Woodson case is nowhere near as extreme, you’ll get the picture, the principle is the same.
@ Muff Potter:
And his quite intentional journey “out”of Calvinism around the same age they are being recruited today. Fascinating!
@ Muff Potter:
It seemed very similar to a focus on Good and Evil
Beakerj wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priapus (NSFW heading illustration from Pompeii)
Law Prof wrote:
“I REJECTYOUR REALITY AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN!”
— intro to Mythbusters (though there it was said as a joke)
@ Law Prof:
“Pseudo-profound Preacher voice” as in “Just like Scientology Tone 40, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”?
(Note: Scientology Tone 40 (LRH) itself sounds like the “Jedi Mind Trick” voice from Star Wars or its inspiration, “The Voice” from the Bene Gesserits of Dune.)
Sòpwith – In Spirit & Truth… wrote:
Since we see and hear Andy Savages after Andy Savages getting away with it over and over, mouthing long prayers for justification. And all the Christiainese promises of “some day before the Judgment Throne” start sounding like “pie in the sky when you die” (old Wobbly march song “The Preacher and the Slave”) and/or “I hope you don’t get anything you want for Christmas!” (Peanuts).
Read Psalms and Lamentations sometime. A LOT of them come from the exact same place — “How long are the Wicked to Triumph? How Long are the Righteous to Suffer?”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Haven’t heard it, but if it’s anything like Andy Savage’s tone in his stagey, maudlin, sociopathic “confession”, don’t think I’d want to hear it.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Just drives me nuts. But as I get older, I get closer to being dead and gone, and I suppose, closer to seeing all that judgment. Of course, I won’t emerge unscathed, either.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
But, but, but you are instantaneously forgiven because your pastor boss said you were 20 years ago.
The important thing is not to normalize it anymore. This cheap Grace -instant forgiveness stuff is about as normalizing as one can get.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/survivor-calls-for-change-in-how-churches-respond-to-abuse-allegation_us_5aa6cd30e4b03c9edfae8d6e
From the NYT to the Huffington Post.
@ SallyVee:
so did bill clinton, didn’t he when he was governor of arkansas? anyways, all these big church pastors have bodyguards. I was outside of fbcjax after i did a counseling session and the pastor pulled up to get out of his vehicle to go in the same building i came out of. I was standing there waiting for my sister to pick me up, and he got on his phone and a dude in a cop uniform came outside. I backed way up to the building door out of the parking lot and told cop uniform who I was waiting on. He said “you’re fine.” Then the pastor put on a cap and pulled his cap down and walked in the building real fast. I felt like a criminal or something. Even though he was just going in the building. Gee whiz, it was weird. I’m sure they get threats and stuff, but it is a little bizarre. The pastors always have bodyguards at church as well. It’s a big church. I don’t know why you need a bodyguard when you go to a performance of “wicked” though, it all seems a little grandiose to me.
Law Prof wrote:
I haven’t been to church much at all since this story came out and I watched that service up there in that video. That worship leader singing the “you are worthy” mess TO ANDY SAVAGE was the straw that finally broke the camel’s back for me. I have so many questions now (the ones I’ve had for years) that i’m starting to finally get answered after my 60 years on this earth. I, unlike some people, think it’s God who is finally giving me answers to who was responsible for so many things that happened to me in my life. Horrid stuff. And the wolves were in the sheeps clothing the whole time.
@ cindy treadway:
“And the wolves were in the sheeps clothing the whole time.”
And combine that with church members having been duped by them gives us what we see today. God is not to be found in some churches, although He may be standing outside knocking on the door waiting to be invited in.
cindy treadway wrote:
Funny how it happens that way. I’ve been to church twice in the last five years. But I’ve regularly had fellowship with prayer, Bible reading, etc. with other Christians. It’s not like we weren’t warned, as in repeatedly, about this phenomenon:
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”
“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”
“There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—–having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.”
Law Prof wrote:
You’ve been twice? Boy is my hat off to you. We attended a Baptist church a couple of weeks ago. First time in almost seven years. All was fine. But we made the decision to listen to another sermon over coffee when we got home. Not five minutes into the sermon the pastor quoted John Piper. Needless to say, our chrch shopping came to an abrupt halt. Oy vey!
cindy treadway wrote:
I find it interesting that the plural is often the correct usage. In so many stories it is a pack of wolves on the hunt, rarely is it a single wolf.
Thersites wrote:
Don’t ya mean a “board of wolves”
All we need is Jesus-THE WAY THE TRUTH
Bodyguard for a Pastor is FUNNY!!!!!!!CRAZY to imagine for an old guy
Might be why many of us worship together in homes rather than the Megachurches
Baptist Bob-one correction. Two bodyguards!
Mercy wrote:
Really well written!!!!
Mary Ann Carpenter wrote:
GOD’s way is to FORGIVE. It is NOT humanity’s responsibility to be JUDGE, JURY & EXECUTIONER. But we can Pray that SHE can learn to forgive and let go of this so that she can live a happier life from here on. He was a “kid” at that time also & he has apologized. May GOD bless them BOTH. -Amen-
God’s child wrote:
I certainly hope to see you out there protesting in favor of 21band 22 year old teachers who have sex with their 17 year old students. In fact, I would expect you to try to introduce legislation to exempt teachers from have to go to jail for doing such things since they are just kids.
Oh yes, and my daughter, when she was 22, was caring for patients in the Emergency Room. Even thought she was a *kid* she never molested a patient.
Finally, get something straight. Jules did NOT consent so you are advocating letting rapists off the hook.
You are also ill informed as to *God;s way* when it comes to forgiveness.I don’t blame you since you merely represent the hordes at Highpoint who have had abysmal teaching in many areas and I lay that at the feet of Savage and Conlee.
Yes, God’s way is to forgive, but that doesn’t mean that crimes go unpunished. Did you happen to know this was a CRIME at the time? Had the church responded in an appropriate way, he would have been prosecuted. Let me refresh your memory about the planning that went into this crime. Jules was young and innocent enough that she first called her mother to ask if it was ok that her YOUTH PASTOR drive her home. So she, in full trust, gets in the car. He lies to her and takes her away from her home. When asked again where he was going, he lied again and told her that he was taking her to a place where a new church was being built. He then on a deserted dirt road pulls out his penis and tells her to give him a blow job…how’s that for pastoring his flock? She got into the car after her mother gave her permission and was under the pretense that he was taking her home, because that’s what he said HE WAS GOING TO DO. Instead, he lies to her, takes her to a secluded area and sexually abuses her. That’s a crime that God can and does forgive, but it’s also a crime that is punishable under law. Forgiveness does not absolve people from the consequences of their sin. You want theology thrown in here? Would that help you to better understand what’s going on here? Justification is the doctrine that says we are forgiven POSITIONALLY of our sin…meaning, because of Jesus Christ, we are no longer held accountable for our sins eternally. We do not suffer eternal consequence for our sin. HOWEVER, in an earthly sense, when we sin, we do suffer consequences. And if the sin is unlawful. we are held accountable under the authority of the law (which was put in place by God). ALL sin is forgivable, not all sin is an earthly crime. What Andy Savage did is an earthly crime, both forgivable by God and His people AND punishable by the law. Why are you so conveniently admonishing the victim to forgive? Are you admonishing Andy Savage to stop calling his actions an “incident” rather than sexual abuse? Why is the burden on the young girl who was sexually assaulted to act with integrity rather the ALL THE BURDEN on Andy Savage and those who covered his crime to humbly BEG the victim’s forgiveness? JULES Woodson did absolutely nothing wrong. Whether or not she has forgiven him is a heart condition between her and the Lord. She does not need to answer to you or anyone else on the forgiveness issue. She didn’t commit a crime. She didn’t abuse her pastoral position. She didn’t lure a MINOR into the woods and tell that minor to perform oral sex. So what’s your issue here? FYI: I have committed great sin ( over 10 years ago) and it wouldn’t occur to me to tell the person that I offended to “just forgive me”. NEVER would I do that, because I am repentant and fully accept the weight of the consequences of my sin and the pain that it caused. As a matter of fact, the whole town knows what I did. Never have I blamed others who have gossiped about my sin. My sin is mine and the consequences started rolling in over time. Had I never CHOSEN to sin, I wouldn’t have had to suffer any of the results of my sin, including other people’s sinful responses. It all started with my initial choice to sin. Period. End of discussion. Andy Savage is where he’s at because the consequences of sin are built into the system. It’s a spiritual law; sin always gives birth to consequences. He is reaping the fruit of his choice even from 20 years ago. And there’s no one to blame but Andy Savage. Just as there’s no one to blame but me.
God’s child wrote: