dee wrote:

@ drstevej:
You are 1-I cheated.

Made my day!

The narrative, the emails, pretty much the whole thing, has the ring of truth. Nowhere does RZ deny what happened, just tries to control the outcome and/or hush things up. Same pattern holds with the legal action.

This and so many other things these days make me glad I left evangelicalism years ago. I thought things were bad then, but they only seem to have gotten worse as time goes on.

@ Cindy Meyers:

i know what you mean — although i tend to see it as “Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above.”–Rose Sayers to Charlie Allnut, The African Queen.

i’ve seen too many christians shirk personal responsibility on so many levels by ascribing all forms of tension and their response to it to Satan.

(or to God, for that matter: a bemused “God’s trying to teach me something….” if God is truly involved in such various & sundry unfavorable circumstances, i suspect the lesson more often than not is simply remedial cause and effect.)

Why is there do much sexual sin in the Christian ministry?

Cindy Meyers wrote:

The devil and his minions are on a rampage!!! No Christian is exempt from his wiles of deception

Sometimes we give the devil too much credit. Blaming him abrogates personal responsibility. This is free will in action.

I love everyone wrote:

Why is there do much sexual sin in the Christian ministry

One word “power”. Sexual abuse and the thrill of power are always interlinked.

Ok, but how do you know that any of the so-called evidence is real? You have redacted emails, which would be fairly easy to make up. You have phone calls to three people, so far, but how do you know who you are talking to? You have a single person who looks like he has been trolling RZ for two years, and who posts on practically every story/blog/twitter I have read so far. Until RZ actually responds to these accusations, all you really have is accusations.

Plus, the language used in these “stories” is pretty troubling. People are commenting like they are judge, jury, and executioner. I am not seeing a whole lot of christian love here or anywhere for that matter. This is the internet after all, how do we know what is real in these situations?

dee wrote:

My guess is that a pure secularist perspective does not do any better in the lying and cheating department. However, I could be wrong

No, I don’t think you’re wrong. Secularists are no better but invoking a divine mandate as many holy abusers are prone to do is a force multiplier that can’t be ignored.

@ I love everyone:

“Why is there do much sexual sin in the Christian ministry?”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

because sexuality is so sensationalized with a huge white spotlight in christian culture, like nazi concentration camps at night (or so i’ve seen in movies). of course you want to escape, right?

every moral, emotional, spiritual nerve and fiber is on edge — erect, if you will. it follows that physical nerves and fibers will also be on edge. the Queen Mutha’ of forbidden things becomes so darn ALLURING!!

but also, those wielding the spotlight have power. One way power corrupts is the powerful start believing they are above the rules. They become emboldened with entitlement, with taking liberties.

(…i think i just read these very words in articles on Matt Lauer, Charlie Rose, and Harvey Weinstein)

This newest post by Julie Anne is sad and definitely requires an explanation:

https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2017/12/01/new-email-that-needs-explanation-from-ravi-zacharias/

Those emails are pretty damning. Such a sad thing that this seems to have happened. I thought RZ was/is more honorable than that. Disappointing…to say in the least.

Jack wrote:

Cindy Meyers wrote:

The devil and his minions are on a rampage!!! No Christian is exempt from his wiles of deception

Sometimes we give the devil too much credit. Blaming him abrogates personal responsibility. This is free will in action.

Maybe but not always 🙂

Hosea 4:12
My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

Cindy Meyers wrote:

I’m always amazed when another person with years of knowing and teaching the Bible falls miserably. It’s so sad!

I think that often that means they will be under greater attack and have more temptations and more frequent. I dont know enough about Ravi but i’ve noticed it in other christians.

sandy c wrote:

Well if a woman was trying to slander me and emailing me to try and entrap me so she could falsley accuse me and make big bucks in a lawsuit that is not the response i would use

I don’t know who said it was false, but I never suggested that the trap was false at all. Trap yes, false no. Notice all the alleged slush fund payoffs in the current problems with several members of congress. They paid off to keep things quiet-not to avoid ‘false’ accusations. The best thing is to get some goods on somebody, some evidence to prove it, and then state your price.

And, yes, I think that the one who set the trap was, like I said, the ‘roaring lion’ who roams about seeing whom he can devour. They both fell into the trap, but perhaps for different reasons. The real object of the ‘trap’, however, the big payoff, may be those who trusted RZ and whose faith may now be shaken. No need to say that said faith need not be shaken by this sort of thing, like who ya goona have faith in anyhow and all that-because we have heard comment after comment here on TWW over a long period of time from people who say that their faith is shaken or perhaps gone based on what they have seen in christianity. Something about smite the shepherd and the sheep will scatter, or words to that effect.

What I am thinking is that perhaps ‘he’ thought that he could just get away with something, and maybe ‘she’ thought who knows what but her need to go public is suspicious if she felt all that guilty, when all the while behind the scenes is the ultimate trap setter whose aim is doing as much harm as possible to the followers of the one he really is after-Christ himself.

And it may be that the husband is just some poor innocent in all this. At first I thought not, but perhaps he really is just one more victim in a pile of victims. Or maybe he is still trying to get something in writing from RZ to serve as further evidence-though surely there is enough evidence already. Probably he is just being batted around and used by other people for their own agendas-including perhaps the counselor who apparently wants him to forgive now even with not enough information to process what actually went on.

I am aware that there are people who are uncomfortable with this paradigm, but I think it is biblical and I think it is reasonable, and I think it is diabolically clever in that it leaves free will intact. Nobody is compelled to do anything-just yield to temptation-whatever temptation works for you.

A.Tumbleweed wrote:

Until RZ actually responds to these accusations …

… I will not speculate, explicate, or ruminate on this matter any further. I am getting a check in my spirit at this point; something is amiss.

@ Max:
Ditto.

I love everyone wrote:

Why is there do much sexual sin in the Christian ministry?

Because (my opinion) Christianity (or any religion for that matter) has never come to grips with what human sexuality entails. It has never dealt with it in a realistic and responsible pragmatism.

@ dee:
**** and **** and ***- sorry- i wanted deebs to see this before it auto posted and am hoping profanity sends it to moderation. If you think its valid to post please edit my profanity out!!

Another account of Ravi incident which alludes to extortion and past litigious behavior by the couple involved and mentions Athiest Steve.

“…it seems appropriate to give the benefit of the doubt to Zacharias rather than a couple with a litigious history seeking a $5 million extortion payment from him.

Even so, Zacharias’ own explanation in his court filing of how this situation developed over a period of two years raises questions about his judgment in this matter. He allowed a professional relationship with a prospective donor couple to develop into an online friendship with just the wife. This led to the woman giving Zacharias exercise advice for his bad back including photos of her apparently performing the exercises. These photos apparently progressed from normal photos to scantily clad pictures to eventually nude snapshots. It is hard to see how Zacharias allowed this progression to occur although he claims to have sought to block her messages to him and to cut off all communication with the woman. Nevertheless, communications at some level clearly continued and the filing does not offer an explanation as to how or why this happened. Nor did Zacharias attempt to involve his board of directors in this situation at an early stage of its development, allowing the situation to escalate. And RZIM is not willing to share any additional details to address the concerns we raised about how Ravi handled this unfortunate extortion attempt. We have asked why the court filing did not include more evidence of Zacharias’ e-mails or text messages to the woman that would back up his case about not soliciting the pictures as well as other matters, but RZIM stated they could not respond due to the case being in the courts at that time. The only evidence of an e-mail from Zacharias to the alleged extortionists included in Zacharias’ court filing was an edited e-mail to the woman’s husband which seems to include an admission of Zacharias’ guilt regarding letting an online relationship with the woman go too far while simultaneously denying he ever requested nude photos. Here is that section of Zacharias’ court filing:
https://www.ministrywatch.com/articles/rzim.php

@ Muff Potter:

“From a time when they really did have style and grace. But the world has moved on (as Stephen King would write). Style and grace is as gone as the lemon groves in my area.”
++++++++++++++++++

too much awareness of self. an inability to get lost in the art form because of getting stuck on “how am i looking?” “how am i coming across?” “is the camera catching me just right?” “i’m a celebrity” “yes, I AM all that”

kills inspiration instantly

all that’s left are pretenders who do sort of an ok job.

Jack wrote:

No one expects the Spanish inquisition!

I can sum up why I like TWW in one word: diversity, and openmindedness.

Muff Potter wrote:

the world has moved on … Style and grace is as gone as the lemon groves in my area.

Muff, current generations would call us nostalgic, but past days in America were really better; a higher moral standard loomed over the nation. I’m not surprised any longer when I turn on the news to find yet another fallen big boy … from politician, to media elite, to Hollywood celebrity … and, yes, even popular preachers. The world is fleshing it out in all corners of the culture. “Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?” (Prov. 20:6)

@ elastigirl:

hmmm… all my pontificating applies to the christian institution as well. the distractions of self, money, the politics of things, wearing a hat for reasons that do not include possessing the gift to fill it. many with the gifts are not wanted by the powerbrokers. and so we have pretenders who do sort of an ok job. but there’s no inspiration. it’s merely going through the motions.

it’s all flat. like flat coke. flat fresca. drinkable, but….

@ sandy c:

Interesting. On a lighter note, in my decades as a health care professional I have seen an awful lot of human bodies but I certainly never saw one worth that much money-clad or unclad. I guess it is another case of context! (sarcasm)

Okay, I should not have said what I just did at 11:58 AM

I truly repent of saying it and I request that it not be printed here. For all I know these people are all angels in disguise and their lawyer(s) may be also.

@ elastigirl:

Comparing the past as Max speaks of it and the present as you speak of it, if I am hearing you all correctly, one of the major differences is different values hierarchy. For example, holding a marriage together even in the face of some serious difficulties and disappointments was more highly recognized as a value in itself back then than it seems to be now, while today individual satisfaction with the marriage is more highly valued than before. This change in hierarchies of values can be seen in lots of things.

It is a matter of opinion as to which set of values was better and which worse.

@ dee:
It is very difficult to separate fact from fiction with RZ. The fullest account he gives of his visit to theUSSR can be found here.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4wf_NIK1CyMC&pg=PT149&lpg=PT149&dq=“yuri+kirshin”+“ravi+zacharias”&source=bl&ots=Oh4FbjMhE8&sig=9BkCvIhKXbTtOHolMZXOpjGJnpQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirh5X95evXAhXCYVAKHSL1D3AQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=“yuri%20kirshin”%20“ravi%20zacharias”&f=false

It sounds all very impressive but some of his claims are simply not true. There is a Centre for Geopolitical Strategy but his claims that President Gorbachev and General Mikhail Khatusov (of Napoleonic War fame) both attended it, is false. Gorbachev was educated at Krasnogvardeiskoye high school and Moscow State University where he studied law. Katusv attended the Military Engineering School in St Petersburg, aged q2 and was a corporal by the age of 14.

Furthermore, you have to put what he says in context. The Berlin Wall came down in November 1989. There was a coup against Gorbachev in August 1991so his visit had to be between these two dates.

He claims he met General Kirshin at a Campus Crusade meeting in LA. He invited him to a further meeting at Greenbrier Inn (Green Brier Resort West Virginia) where he led Kirshin Christ and travelled to Moscow at a later date. He references the Green Brier meeting by mentioning a World Series game between Atlanta Braves and Toronto Blue Jays. That game was in Oct 17-24 1992. General Kirshin was a delegate to the Dartmouth Conference in 1992 but this appears to have been held in Moscow between 19-24 October. This was one of six conferences held in 1992. The only one held in the USA was in Washington DC in December 1992. (https://www.kettering.org/sites/default/files/product-downloads/Dartmouth_50_Years.pdf).

Amateur sleuths with time on their hands could further unpick the claims. (Smiley Face)

I take serious issue with the fact that Rivi Zacharias ex-Dr. will not answer anyones questions on any issues. There are lots of people asking him and RZIM to respond to both the Dr issue and the woman issue.

“The only reason we can see why Zacharias would settle this case before It went to trial and use an NDA is that the trial would bring out damaging evidence against him. If Zacharias had evidence which would prove those seeking to extort money from him were lying, it is hard to imagine he would not pursue this even if the legal costs were high. It was our sincere hope the legal process would completely exonerate Zacharias and MinistryWatch delayed sharing anything about this case for months on the hope evidence would be presented clearing Zacharias. Due to the settlement, which one can only presume was achieved by Zaharias personally paying the alleged extortionists some sum of money, it now appears clear he was likely guilty of something in this situation which would cause him significant reputational damage, above that which is already known about this case, had it become public.”
https://www.ministrywatch.com/articles/rzim.php

Hi, Dee. The link in your post no longer works. JA took down her original post. See her explanation below.

Removed Two Posts
Posted by Julie Anne
I think this is only the second time I have done this in my nearly 6 yrs of blogging. I was requested by the victim to remove the posts containing personal emails between Ravi Zacharias and the victim, and have done so.

I will be following up with a statement shortly about this and will add it to this post.

In response to Ms Thomson getting a lawyer Ravi Zacharias got one too, (Ministry watch tried to find out who paid for both Ravi’s Lawyer and his settlement payment but got no answer from RZIM.) Not just a little lawsuit either.

Ravi Zacharias filed suit against the Thomsons charging them with 7 counts, including Rackateering against his organazation, conspiracy, and causing him emotional distress.
He also demanded a jury trial.
There were no nude pictures of Zacharias- Ms Thomson is the only one that would be hurt by a jury trial.
That suit is the one that Zacharias dropped. A big ministry with wealth and no lack of lawyers dropped the suit and gave Ms Thomson a cash settlement to be quiet. And not release his emails/phone calls to her, i am certain.
And that is why

In the court documents Ms Thomsons lawyer also requested from Zacharias the preservation of any documents related to any online conversations he may have had with other women.

dee wrote:

I believe that the lawsuit was settled in favor of the victim but I cannot offer proof of that.

Ministry Watch came to that same conclusion.
“The only reason we can see why Zacharias would settle this case before It went to trial and use an NDA is that the trial would bring out damaging evidence against him. If Zacharias had evidence which would prove those seeking to extort money from him were lying, it is hard to imagine he would not pursue this even if the legal costs were high. It was our sincere hope the legal process would completely exonerate Zacharias and MinistryWatch delayed sharing anything about this case for months on the hope evidence would be presented clearing Zacharias. Due to the settlement, which one can only presume was achieved by Zaharias personally paying the alleged extortionists some sum of money, it now appears clear he was likely guilty of something in this situation which would cause him significant reputational damage, above that which is already known about this case, had it become public.”
” RZIM has only communicated with us via e-mail and has often not answered many of the questions we have asked, claiming they could not do so because the matter was before the court. Most of those questions were also posed before the NDA was in place. As noted earlier, RZIM claimed in their e-mails that Zacharias was going to fight this extortion attempt “vigorously”, but then Zacharias settled the case before it went to trial where RZIM’s assertions of the “false claims” made against Zacharias could have been proven to indeed be false. One can reasonably conclude, therefore, the couple extorting Zacharias actually did indeed have damaging e-mails and texts from him.”
“In MinistryWatch’s opinion, these troubling developments are significant enough to warrant making donors to RZIM aware of this situation.”

I think Ravi Zacharias has a huge problem already as he’s claimed credentials he does not actually have. I would hope focusing on that deception would be sufficient.

Tumbleweed. Let us not forget that Mr. Zacharias is silent speaks volumes. This is not a criminal case where the defendant can remain silent without cost. @ A.Tumbleweed:

Tumbleweed. Let us not forget that Mr. Zacharias’s silence speaks volumes. This is not a criminal case where the defendant can remain silent without cost. @ A.Tumbleweed:
@ dee:

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

I think Ravi Zacharias has a huge problem already as he’s claimed credentials he does not actually have. I would hope focusing on that deception would be sufficient.

Actually it doesnt seem so. I have been reading that its ok and quite customary for people with honorary degrees to use them as if they were legit degrees and the online consenses seems to be: ‘nothing to see here, keep walking, dont stop and stare…but do keep sending donations!’

@ sandy c:

“The Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics (OCCA) is an autonomous study centre based in Oxford, England. Established in 2005, OCCA offers a range of programmes.

The OCCA is a part of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. The primary mission of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries is to reach and challenge those who shape the ideas of a culture with the credibility of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Distinctive in its strong evangelistic and apologetic foundation, the ministry of RZIM is intended to touch both the heart and the intellect of the thinkers and influencers of society through the support of the visionary leadership of Ravi Zacharias.”

http://www.theocca.org/occa

@ sandy c:
I am trying to find out if that is at Oxford or in some town named Oxford or Actually a program at Oxford U.

The problem of calling himself “Dr. Z” is minor. The bigger issue is systematically failing to disclose that his doctorates are all honorary. He refused to put the word “honorary” at his web bio. Then he put it there and took it down. Now it is up. Very odd behavior. @ sandy c:

@ Steve Baughman:
I agree, my comment was the online (cough*cough*) consenses

dee wrote:

And the lawsuit got settled and we will never see if there was anything like that. However, if RZ did this once, it is highly likely that he did it before or since.

THIS! This is my whole concern! People may think i am overjoyed to see this man fall but honestly i dont “follow” christian famous people and it wouldnt bother me a bit if Ravi Zacharias went on the rest of his life teaching online, on radio, or writing books, EXCEPT if he is another powerful authority figure in american religious circles that is leaving a pile of abused women behind while he does it. If that is the case then I will rejoice loudly that a man is no longer able to do that under the guise of ‘preaching the gospel’ i am currently looking into his school which he advertises often and probably makes a fortune off of. Guess what- i havent found anything amiss and i am posting that also! The old tired line of ‘dont look into abuse’ because the devil is using you just doesnt cut it. If its of God it will stand the test. Jesus had no issues with people doing a background check on Himself, He had nothing to hide and was open about it.

Hi Sandy. A master of divinity is a professional degree, but depending on the school it can be fairly rigorous with some academic classes in there. Ravi got one at Trinity. I am told that the Trinity program is quite demanding. But the issue is that Mr. Zacharias has referred to himself as a doctor for so many decades and has failed routinely to disclose that he only has an honorary doctorates. This has nothing to do with the master of divinity. @ sandy c:

Dee. Scary stuff. My new video “the case against Ravi Zacharias” as disappeared from YouTube search Fields.

It cannot be found although it still exists at my channel.

This is the second time my Ravi videos have been messed with. Very scary that someone can suppress videos they don’t like.

Please help get this word out. It looks like a Ravi and/or his people are willing to fight very dirty.

Sorry. I didn’t see that got posted. I don’t know how to erase my comments here. Apologies.

There is definitely something funky going on with Steve’s YouTube account. I’m asking my cyber security friends about this. It’s certainly a way to silence Steve. I don’t like this one bit.

Julie Anne

How do you guys reconcile, or maybe a better word “understand” the $5 million dollars the lawyer tried to get from Ravi?
http://www.raviwatch.com/public/assets/9-1.pdf

I’ve read the personal emails that are no longer available. They show emotion on both sides, but there’s not clarity that both sides agree what the emotion is based on. It’s hard to see those emails and then look at the $5 million demand and reconcile it. They don’t seem to fit together.

It’s also difficult to understand this:
http://www.intelligencer.ca/2008/10/07/man-claims-1-million-in-damages

And this:
http://mail.maranatha-church.com/oldconcerned/timeline.html

Which show the couple were involved in suing previous Christian leadership. They have very unfortunately been hurt by Christian leadership, and have felt the need to sue that leadership on multiple occasions…..or this is something else entirely.

The only thing we know for sure, Ravi, and the Thompsons, are loved by God, created by Him to serve Him, and we should pray that there would be repentance, healing, and forgiveness experienced by them all.

If i enter “the case against ravi zacharias youtube in my browser search engine it goes right to it”.

If i youtube search i get a youtube page with steves channel where i assume has all his vids, along with alot of ravi zacharias’s vids and some other vids of other people questioning points Ravi has made. Even if i spell atheist wrong, which i did. Lol

@ sandy c:

Good morning Sandy. About this use of the title ‘Dr’ in the case of an earned MDiv, if in fact as has been said he has that from an accredited seminary? I certainly agree that professional degrees are not the same as PhDs and I agree that some are more rigorous than others. That said, I am not aware of any actual rule about the MDiv, and apparently who can use the title Dr is determined by custom.

Do you have any authoritative source about the customary practice concerning professional degrees that are ‘D’ something or other. I really do not do research worth even mentioning, but you seem to be good at it. In my family the lawyers have the JD degree but do not call themselves Dr. I have an MD and insisted on Dr on the job but off the job I could care less what people called me. Our rector has an earned MDiv from an accredited denominational seminary but we still just call him ‘father’. And in the school system where one of my younguns works the people who have doctorates in education are called Dr.

So usage seems to be all over the place and is based on whatever is common practice as well as what is individual preference in the area of professional degrees with the magic ‘D’ in them. Am I correct about that or are there official rules about this?

I am asking specifically and only about professional degrees earned from accredited institutions of higher education.

Thanks in advance. I know that research takes time, and if you are busy right now I understand. But since the issue has been raised I think this information is needed.

Now more of Ravi’s followers are starting to ask questions and some are asking when he will respond on the post RZIM posted earlier saying he was traveling and would respond later. Also it seems that some of the comments are being erased because when someone comments and facebook shows 3 replies to the comment there are actually none showing. Could be my phone. Will be interesting to see if Rzim does post a Ravi response.

https://m.facebook.com/?stype=lo&jlou=AfccGuVT9EH6lNT7NCWLrUnUuPjpQeOqJIx0BMJKqTn72P3S0rFjz0vqrY4QrFMZbKvRZY4nbQ2sDVfbuqu4oelyD8KNPdhKbYlsJkJuHGZlxQ&smuh=5596&lh=Ac919awLHWlo2BV6&_rdr#!/story.php?story_fbid=10155448937921284&id=35947206283

okrapod wrote:

, if in fact as has been said he has that from an accredited seminary?

I know my response is lenghty but in fairness i have made lenghty posts questioning the validity of accredations of pastors/christians.
I wanted to see if it was an accredited university first:

“Trinity International University (TIU) is an evangelical Christian liberal arts institution of higher education headquartered in Deerfield, Illinois, United States.[3] It comprises an undergraduate college, a graduate school, a theological seminary (Trinity Evangelical Divinity School), a law school, and a camp called Timber-lee —together with about 2,700 students.[2] Trinity Law School is located in Santa Ana, California; the university also maintains campuses in Florida and Dolton, Illinois ; the camp is located in East Troy, Wisconsin. TIU is operated by the Evangelical Free Church of America”
TIU’s undergraduate college, its graduate school, its divinity school, and its law school are all accredited by the Commission on Institutions of Higher Education of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools (NCA-HLC),[12][13] one of the six US Department of Education (USDE) and the USDE-sanctioned Council for Higher Education (CHEA) approved regional accreditors in the United States. Its divinity school is further accredited by the USDE- and CHEA-approved Commission on Accrediting of the Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada (ATS).[14]”
TIU’s law school, located in Santa Ana, California, is accredited by the Committee of Bar Examiners (CBE) of the State Bar of California (CALBAR).[16] The normative nationwide USDE- and CHEA-approved accreditor of law schools is the American Bar Association (ABA). Within the state of California, though, law schools accredited by CALBAR CBE, which is neither USDE- or CHEA-approved, are often considered to be as credible as those accredited by the ABA. However, outside of California, a CALBAR CBE approved law school is treated with less respect than an ABA approved law school.[17] TIU’s Trinity Law School (Santa Ana campus only) is also included as part of TIU’s regional accreditation by the USDE- and CHEA-approved NCA-HLC.[12]

TIU is one of around 3,000 institutional members of CHEA,[18] one of the two entities (along with USDE) that approves two of its accreditors.

The organizations of which TIU is also a member include the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities (CCCU),[19] the Christian College Consortium (CCC), and the Christian Adult Higher Education Association (CAHEA).[20]”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_International_University

? Is it customary to use the title Dr of Divinity
Wikipedia

(Photo)
Aquatint of a Doctor of Divinity at the University of Oxford, in the scarlet and black academic robes corresponding to his position. (The Doctor appears here in his Convocation habit, rather than his full ceremonial dress.) From Rudolph Ackermann’s History of Oxford, 1814.

Doctor of Divinity (D.D. or D.Div.; Latin: Doctor Divinitatis) is an advanced or honorary academic degree in divinity.”

“In the United Kingdom, the degree is a higher doctorate conferred by universities upon a religious scholar of standing and distinction for accomplishments beyond the Ph.D. level.”
Typically, the candidate will submit a collection of work which has been previously published in a peer-reviewed context and pay an examination fee.[2] The university then assembles a committee of academics both internal and external who review the work submitted and decide on whether the candidate deserves the doctorate based on the submission. Most universities restrict candidacy to graduates or academic staff of several years’ standing.”

In the United States, the degree is generally conferred honoris causa by a church-related college, seminary, or university to recognize the recipient’s ministry-orientated accomplishments.[3] For example, Martin Luther King (who received a Ph.D. in systematic theology from Boston University in 1955) subsequently received honorary Doctor of Divinity degrees from the Chicago Theological Seminary (1957), Boston University (1959), Wesleyan College (1964), and Springfield College (1964).[4] Billy Graham (who has received honorary Doctor of Divinity degrees from The King’s College and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) is regularly addressed as “Dr. Graham,” though his highest earned degree is a B.A. in anthropology from Wheaton College.[5][6]

Under federal law, a 1974 judgement accepted expert opinion that an “Honorary Doctor of Divinity is a strictly religious title with no academic standing. Such titles may be issued by bona fide churches and religious denominations, such as plaintiff (Universal Life Church), so long as their issuance is limited to a course of instruction in the principles of the church or religious denomination”.[7] However, under the California Education Code, “an institution owned, controlled, and operated and maintained by a religious organization lawfully operating as a nonprofit religious corporation pursuant to Part 4 (commencing with Section 9110) of Division 2 of Title 1 of the Corporations Code” that offers “instruction… limited to the principles of that religious organization, or to courses offered pursuant to Section 2789 of Business and Professions Code” may confer “degrees and diplomas only in the beliefs and practices of the church, religious denomination, or religious organization” so long as “the diploma or degree is limited to evidence of completion of that education”; institutions “shall not award degrees in any area of physical science”, while “any degree or diploma granted under this subdivision shall contain on its face… a reference to the theological or religious aspect of the degree’s subject area… a degree awarded under this subdivision shall reflect the nature of the degree title, such as ‘associate of religious studies,’ ‘bachelor of religious studies,’ ‘master of divinity,’ or ‘doctor of divinity.'”[8]”

@ sandy c:
Continued from wikipedia doctorate of divinity

“In the Catholic Church, Doctor of Divinity is an honorary degree denoting ordination as bishop.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Divinity

Dave A A wrote:

We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your telephone set. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to – The Outer Limits.’
I was just looking at the same thing. What’s really funny is where a fan’s replies to a critic are still there, like “Jack, you’re a monkey’s uncle” but Jack’s comment has been erased.

Hahaha- i needed that laugh! Thanks!

dee wrote:

have requested a response on a couple of items from his PR guy-Mark DeMoss. No response and I doubt there will be. There is a real problem with RZ’s bio.

Maybe i am tired but why do i remember the name Mark DeMoss as scary or rediculous? Driscoll days??

@ okrapod:
I am thinking that as a Dr the things i posted will make more sense to you than me. But i have no reason to think that Ravi Zacharias doesnt have a masters of divinity, except for comments and the fact that he did erase the title Dr from most online references about himself. Maybe he only has a honorary degree but even so as my link explained many Reverends have done that including Dr Billy Graham. I dont know how others view this but i certainly dont see it as rising to ‘illegal or immoral’ but i could be wrong. And i cant really personally call it deceitful because in my experience it has been a well known customary practice for decades in the US. My interviews years ago showed me that some of the pastors used honorary degree and some had actual earned degrees and if asked they would explain. If i found out a Physician was doing this it would be a whole different issue in my opinion.

dee wrote:

RZIM had a business leaders conference this weekend.

http://rzim.org/business-leaders-conference/

It is all abut integrity. “Why does integrity matter in business? How do I build a values-based culture in a secular workplace? “

He’s gonna start getting hecklers soon if his facebook comments are any indication! And also i wouldnt be surprised if media starts going in and interrupting wich inconvenient questions lol I noticed Roy Moore’s atty advised him to just not talk about it and Roys been pretty much doing that. Wonder if Rivi’s atty told him same thing? Ignore it until it blows over? We shall see…

@ dee:
Hey Dee i’m not implying that you shouldnt pursue this. I am just coming from a whole different world here. I once went to country club dinners and expensive churches. in the last 17 i have lived in neighborhoods where the median monthly income was $750-$900. My credentials arent how many shipwrecks but how many drive by shootings i have survived by the grace of God. I will cheer you on, i see you are doing what you are called to do, even though i am calloused sometimes when it involves rich guys with big churches that live in mansions…Go Girl!

At 17 and 71 Ravi “used” suicide. He might need a real DOCTOR.

Steve wrote:

At 17 and 71 Ravi “used” suicide. He might need a real DOCTOR.

I could not helo but notice similarities between the deleted email from Mr T and the email from the cuckolded husband of one of the late Mr Campbell’s ladyfriends over in Scotland. And that each spiritual leader was at a loss for words to explain why he did it.

“The topic of sexuality comes up in practically every speech or talk Zacharias does, regardless of how unrelated the topic of the speech may be.” – Megan Briggs
https://churchleaders.com/news/303748-ravi-zacharias-millennials-abandoned-church-christian-sexual-ethics-seek-answers-fulfillment-found-neither.html

sandy c wrote:

Nothing to see here, Move along.
It would be a snap to resolve this in one quick statement.

But his team has already resolved it with their statement of 11/27. The assertions are false, our team is grieved, the claims are egregious, the slander is destructive, Ravi is traveling, we ate too much turkey, your comments are vanishing, and we’ll respond in greater detail when we’re darn good and ready.

@ dee:
My prior comment actually quoted Dee.
I some prior comment I believe Dee used the term “victim”. In this case I’m more inclined to speak of “victims” plural, which includes Mrs Z and Mr T. I’m looking now at the email exchange between Mr T and Mr Z, in which Mr T is trying to be a good and forgiving christian, but wonders WHY!? Mr Z promised him an answer later that day. So do you or JA know whether that answer ever came, or was it like the forthcoming “answer” from the “team”?

Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

But, in the past RZ was presented at para-church invited conference at Universities and the organizers would really play up the “degrees” and “big name” university associations of RZ and others.

I get your anger. If i had 10 honorary degrees i might also play that up.

No one is mad at Sir Elton John because he didnt actually ride a horse and fight Sir Galihad to get Knighted.

Why do you think that the victim agreed to settle this case with a non-disclosure? Did she realize that her story would be silenced, even doubted, because of the scarcity of email/phone documentation that could be examined?

Julie Ann ~ Can you give us an idea about how much documentation/evidence you saw? Were there dozens of emails, or only those that you previously posted?

Thanks for helping me sort through all of this!

sandy c wrote:

@ Steve:
I am kind of wondering what your motives are that you would spend over 2 years trying to make the world see his suicide and use of ‘honorary’ degrees as he had.

Sorry ‘steve’ i just realized there is drsteve, steve and @stevebaughman which is where i meant this to go.

@ DrMike:
I dont expect people to believe RZ or RZIM.

DrMike wrote:

I am shocked that Ravi’s lawyered statement was constructed to make them look like Gold Diggers. Sorry it smells worse from up here.

Glad you looked into that i didnt but also thought ‘extortioners’ was not accurate. Also that Ravi tried to make it into a rackateering conspiracy. And also that he demanded a jury trial because she was the only one that would have been shamed with nude photos. I probably would have taken his $ and settled just to avoid the possibility of photos being leaked online. And that he dropped his case.
Those are reasons i think Ms Thomson has credibility.

@ dee:
dee wrote:

DrMike wrote:

…

I spoke to the victim in March 2016. She sounded like a hurting woman who was afraid to tell her husband about what happened. I was willing to write a post about it but she asked me to keep the conversation confidential. I advised her to get an attorney. It looks to me it took er about 16 months to do so.

I believe her story and plan to post Ravi’s suicide email tomorrow since it appears he is deciding to pretend there is nothing to see when we now know his bio is baloney.

For those of us who are not regulars on this blog, or Julie Ann’s blog, or any blog that spends time bringing light to things like this…I ask this, why would the alleged victim contact you bloggers, or you Dr. Mike about her story?

1. why does she even know you exist?
2. why would she trust you with this information ?
3. what did she accomplish or think she would accomplish by sharing this with Christian bloggers back in 2016 ?

I just don’t understand that, and I don’t understand the $5 million dollar demand letter from her and her husband to Ravi.

You attempted to pull up what you thought was tares, and instead you were tugging on the wheat.

Exodus 23:1
Do not spread false reports. Do not help a guilty person by being a malicious witness.

Exodus 23:7
Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.

@ Stephen:

Welcome Stephen. You seem to be upset. You also seem to believe Ravi without question. You are also making quite a few demands.

I cannot 100% clear Ravi of any wrongdoing without evidence. But since we are questioning the character of Mr Zacharias, shouldn’t we, if we are truly to be objective, question the character of the plaintiff?? Below is an article depicting the alleged victim in another light. And the plot thickens http://www.intelligencer.ca/2008/11/17/church-led-me-astray-woman

dee wrote:

JA. is just blowing smoke and pulling a con job. But , is that the JA you know?

You know what kind of smoke they’ve got blowin’ in my state, doncha, Dee?

dee wrote:

This case boils down to another *he said/she said.* I spoke to the *she* of this equation at some point just prior to March 2016.

Dee, you are off by one year. I just looked through my notes. She wasn’t calling anyone in Mar. 2016, as she was in the midst of the relationship with RZ and didn’t know what was hitting her. I also found an e-mail from her where she mentioned talking to you and I think it was Feb 2017. That makes sense because my first phone call with her was also Feb 2017. My first e-mail with her was Jan, after 2 people referred her to me. I think it’s important to note that she contacted both of us (and I have the email to prove it), because this shows a victim reaching out for support. You and I both connected with her.

@ Stephen:
I have already previously posted all of that and no i wasnt referencing unverified emails that were up and now taken down. I think you should take your own advice and read your own comments on attacking people character, like mine for instance.

Julie Anne wrote:

I also found an e-mail from her where she mentioned talking to you and I think it was Feb 2017. That makes sense because my first phone call with her was also Feb 2017. My first e-mail with her was Jan, after 2 people referred her to me. I think it’s important to note that she contacted both of us (and I have the email to prove it), because this shows a victim reaching out for support. You and I both connected with her.

And i think its important to note that all of this occured before she contacted a lawyer. It truly seems that she took Dees advice and got one, and i think that was very wise because Zacharias had FOUR lawyers representing him! (That info from the christian post article link above that stephen posted)

Can anyone help me with the question I posted on Sunday night? Why would she take a settlement?

sandy c wrote:

@ sandy c:

At first glance it looks like an actual University of Oxford program. someone else probably knows more about this than me and could explain.
” Meet the team”
http://www.theocca.org/team

I’m pretty sure it’s nothing to do with Oxford University. The website mentions studying in the same town as the famous Oxford University, but describes itself like this:
“The Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics (OCCA) is an autonomous study centre based in Oxford, England.”

Autonomous says to me that it’s nothing to do with the university, which doesn’t surprise me. Universities generally don’t support the kind of distinctly religious-focused training that this kind of apologetics organisation is trying to do. The type of courses offered there are frequently not rigorous or broad enough to meet accreditation criteria.

@ mot comment dated Fri Dec 01, 2017 at 10:12 AM

“Please tells you are joking?”

No, mot, I was not and am not joking. A trap was laid and these people fell into it. And behind this sort of thing is exactly who I said it was.

The article in Christianity Today includes the RZ and RZIM admission of carelessness in the area of the use of and perhaps allowance of the use of the title Dr. in an inappropriate manner and an intention to remedy that situation. RZ admits carelessness in internet use in this situation, and he apparently intends to remedy that. He says that he accepts responsibility for his own behavior.

The article also includes information about the couple and about the results of the legal action, to the extent that can be said.

This is over. Over. Everybody can pack up their biases, in whichever direction said biases lie, and go home. And we can all look to ourselves and identify our own unguarded areas lest we ourselves fall into some sort of so far unidentified trap of one sort or the other.

mot wrote:

Sure seems to me you are giving Ravi a big pass, and you can say it is over, but it is not.

I am giving them both a pass in accepting what they have said and not said and accepting the legal resolution of the issue. If you choose to pursue it, then that is your choice. I do not believe that we are called to do this sort of thing.

@ Stephen:
Read this web page..
http://Www.ministrywatch.com
Another position on the RZ situation

You’re assuming he paid off these people based upon anothers website’s conjecture on the situation?

MinistryWatch said “On November 9th, however, the case was settled without going before a judge and/or jury and therefore, we may now never get answers to the questions that naturally arise from that which we do know at this point. As part of the settlement, all parties to the suit are governed by a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) which means none of the parties to the case can comment on any aspect of it to the public. ”

I must be missing something, but Ravi sued them….not the other way around. Any settlement in a legal case where you are suing someone else for extortion would not end in you paying them money.

Bottom line is this entire method of the way you on this website presented this information, including completely unverified information, as if it was true, and judged and sentenced someone without that information is wrong and has nothing to do in any way shape or form with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As Mr. Tumbleweed said, we are not even called to pull up the tares, lest we pull up the wheat at the same time. You’ve got an entire crew of tare pullers here, and you know what you’re doing? You’re pulling up the wheat with it. Maybe you should consider that.

This is not edifying for anyone’s sake, this is not saving anyone from the pit of hell, this is a complete diversion. I’m bowing out.

God bless you guys.

Stephen wrote:

I must be missing something, but Ravi sued them….not the other way around. Any settlement in a legal case where you are suing someone else for extortion would not end in you paying them money.

Just wondering where this verified information exists. Thanks.

dee wrote:

Sadly, Stephen, who has bowed out to go save others from the pit of hell, doesn’t appear to realize that Zacharias’ claims have earned him the scorn of atheists like Steve Baughman and Richard Dawkins.

Based on this, I too am done. You seem to put more stock in avowed enemies of the Gospel than you do in those who are defending the faith, who will always have the scorn of atheists. Do you not realize that they are tools of Satan, as are all those who join in with them? Seriously, you can’t be that biblically illiterate. Unreal. Time for a reality check ladies.

dee wrote:

He said a bit more than that. That statement was written by a lawyer, without a doubt and I intend to review it today. His statement led me to believe that he was in contact with the victim.

Indeed, and he also said that he was in error for not having a system in place for internet interaction similar to his plan (which sounds like the BG rule) for personal interaction. I do not see from his statement that he has ever said that he did not interact with her. He seems to me to have freely admitted to his error in getting involved in this in the first place-using my words to summarize what the statement seems to say.

Which is precisely my point. He has taken responsibility for his own actions.

Stephen wrote:

Julie Anne
How do you guys reconcile, or maybe a better word “understand” the $5 million dollars the lawyer tried to get from Ravi?
http://www.raviwatch.com/public/assets/9-1.pdf
I’ve read the personal emails that are no longer available. They show emotion on both sides, but there’s not clarity that both sides agree what the emotion is based on. It’s hard to see those emails and then look at the $5 million demand and reconcile it. They don’t seem to fit together.
It’s also difficult to understand this:
http://www.intelligencer.ca/2008/10/07/man-claims-1-million-in-damages
And this:
http://mail.maranatha-church.com/oldconcerned/timeline.html
Which show the couple were involved in suing previous Christian leadership. They have very unfortunately been hurt by Christian leadership, and have felt the need to sue that leadership on multiple occasions…..or this is something else entirely.
The only thing we know for sure, Ravi, and the Thompsons, are loved by God, created by Him to serve Him, and we should pray that there would be repentance, healing, and forgiveness experienced by them all.

Did you read this lawsuit? There was some pretty strange stuff going on at the church. There was lots of money involved, The pastor’s role seemed very odd as well. I don’t think this situation helps in the RZ case.

@ okrapod:

Let me add, again from experience. In the latest family divorce case the other side wanted a legal agreement entered into as to distribution of assets, some of which were in each other person’s name. Both lawyers advised against it because the legal fees to do that would exceed any financial benefit in pursuing the issue. Both sides dropped it.

The can be a variety of reasons why people call a halt to legal proceedings.

A.Tumbleweed wrote:

You seem to put more stock in avowed enemies of the Gospel than you do in those who are defending the faith, who will always have the scorn of atheists.

And what about the call to believers to be blameless before men? I don’t find RZ to be blameless. And all this information can be found without the help of an atheist. So, being upset that an atheist brought it to the forefront just seems like shifting sand on your part.

@ Lowlandseer:

I hope so. And I hope that people reconsider how wise it is to send compromising pictures and/or messages to other people. Then there is the matter of cheating on one’s income tax and polluting one’s computer with commercial sites of ‘pics’ and sneaking one in with somebody at work and cheating on tests at school and malicious gossip about something which one knows to be not true, and there is always the philosophy that business ethics is an oxymoron so why bother, and-and-and.

I think we need more R and R in the church. Repentance and restoration.

@ okrapod:
I hope you’re not suggesting that he’s done these things as well?

A.Tumbleweed wrote:

Based on this, I too am done. You seem to put more stock in avowed enemies of the Gospel than you do in those who are defending the faith, who will always have the scorn of atheists. Do you not realize that they are tools of Satan, as are all those who join in with them? Seriously, you can’t be that biblically illiterate. Unreal. Time for a reality check ladies.

So even if an atheist provides valid information he or she is a tool of Satan–really??

STOP IT! She was NOT a victim. She was a PARTICIPANT bearing EQUAL responsibility. Stop with the nonsense of calling these VERY ADULT WOMEN–VICTIMS. The Bible warns men over and over again about sensuous women setting snares for men and that men need to avoid them. The Bible warns about them destroying men, powerful men. The BIBLE does NOT warn women about men laying these sexual snares for them, or sensuous men, does it? PROVERBS 30:20– “This is the way of an adulteress: she eats and wipes her mouth and says, “I have done no wrong.” Proverbs 9: 1-18–read that also. Proverbs 7:24-26. Proverbs 5: 3-4. Proverbs 2:16. Proverbs 22:14. Proverbs 7: 8-12. THIS WOMAN WAS NOT A VICTIM. ALL of these ADULT WOMEN claiming sexual abuse or victimhood when they were WILLING participants are doing IRREPARABLE DAMAGE to TRUE victims of sexual abuse or assault–and those of you REPEATING THE VICTIMHOOD LIE are also doing irreparable harm to true victims. SO PLEASE STOP.

dee wrote:

@ dee:
Ask why the bio has changed as of this morning,

http://rzim.org/about/ravi-zacharias/

Change? What change?
Oceania has ALWAYS been at Peace with Eurasia, Comrades!

sandy c wrote:

Mostly just media/peers explaining that its actually not that uncommon, ‘lots of people do it’

As in “EVERYBODY’S DOING IT!”?

“Everybody’s Doing It” was also a line used years ago by a sexual predator trying to get into my pants. He failed.

@ okrapod:
The pointlessness of your point is demonstrated by your saying, on the one hand, that the church is doing these things but, on the other, you don’t know what RZ and the lawyers are doing or have done. If you don’t know one, you don’t know the other either. Unless you have proof.

@ Lowlandseer:

Of the things that I listed: tax evasion, computer ‘p’, malicious gossip, cheating in school and shady business practices which have you not either done, or seen, or know somebody who has done or read something about how prevalent it is?

@ okrapod:

So, if I say that these are being done in the church, why would you or anybody assume that unless they are each done by each and every person in the church then they are not being done in the church?

Again, how would I know for example about who does or does not have ‘p’ on his/her computer, but none the less we have seen reported statistics of how prevalent that is in the church.

So let me restate what I am trying to say. It is not just the people involved in this current foofaw who need to make some changes, but also it is the whole church which needs to clean house, each person individually as needed.

I don’t know how to make it any more clear than that.

@ dee:
And lost in the shuffle– yesterday former pastor P Noble launched 2nd Chance Church!
And his sermon? “So I screwed up. Now what?”
Isn’t America a great place?

@ dee:

Yes it is curious. The church is bizarre – if it can even be called a church. And, why would the pastor make Brad Thompson a signatory in charge of financial deposits and other important duties if (in his estimation) Brad exhibited characteristics of Social Affective Disorder? Calling him out in public humiliation during a sermon?! And why would Brad accept that duty after such a grievance?! I would like to think I would have gotten up and walked out – never to return.

That whole organization is odd, starting with Visser who may, himself be mentally unstable! Ha.

Just – odd.

And, no, not the same as RZIM.

Descriptions given by Mr. Ravi Zacharias of his visit to the “Center for Geopolitical Strategy in Moscow”:

https://books.google.com/books?id=6rGmC_V63F8C&pg=PA184

“I remember on one occasion being ushered in to speak at the Center for Geopolitical Strategy in Moscow. Some of Russia’s biggest names either studied or taught there at some time. The general who accompanied me took me first to a large hall, ostentatiously appointed with royal colors, much inlaid with gold, and adorned with a wealth of art. The ceilings rose upward like that of a cathedral. Halfway to the ceiling, pictures of Russia’s great generals surrounded the room, from Peter the Great to Kutuzov, of fame during the Napoleonic wars.”

https://books.google.com/books?id=4wf_NIK1CyMC&pg=PT149

“The Center for Geopolitical Strategy in Moscow is twelve stories in all, eight above ground and four below. Every Russian premier or president has graduated from the Center, from Mikhail Gorbachev dating back to General Mikhail Kutusov, who fought against Napoleon. When we arrived, the meeting room was filled with professors formally dressed in their imposing military uniforms.”

Current bio of General Yuri Kirshin, the sponsor in Moscow, lists the positions he’s held in his career, but not “the chief historian of the Center for Geopolitical Strategy” claimed by Mr. Ravi Zacharias:

http://scicenter.online/politicheskaya-filosofiya-scicenter/kratkaya-biografiya-130935.html

@ Sheila Girl:

There is such a thing as spiritual. And no one said this was case was exactly like other sexual abuse cases. There are different kinds of abuse.

Jerome wrote:

Current bio of General Yuri Kirshin, the sponsor in Moscow, lists the positions he’s held in his career, but not “the chief historian of the Center for Geopolitical Strategy” claimed by Mr. Ravi Zacharias:
http://scicenter.online/politicheskaya-filosofiya-scicenter/kratkaya-biografiya-130935.html

These documents specify precisely the positions held by the General in his distinguished career.

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb285/vol%20II%20Kirshin.PDF

Trish wrote:

Why do you think that the victim agreed to settle this case with a non-disclosure? Did she realize that her story would be silenced, even doubted, because of the scarcity of email/phone documentation that could be examined?

I dont know, alot of people do that. I think the fact that he had nude pictures of her was one reason not to want it out in the publics eye. I dont know why the origonal lawyer letter complaint requested money either. They claimed that the issue had resulted in their needing counseleling and her husband wasnt able to work full time as a result. That would be reason to seek monetary recompense. Ravi Zacharias also claimed “emotional distress” in his counter claim. They said they didnt want to take it to court in their letter to him but then ravi filed the suit against them so the “settlement of the suit” would have been his suit against them, they hadnt filed one. His suit included 3 RICO counts- which is rackateering. He filed notice with the court on Nov. 9 2017 of voluntary dismissal of his lawsuit against them. As part of the settlement they were required to sign a non disclosure agreement. I think at that point it may have been agree or walk away with nothing. I would note that Ravi claims he also is prevented from talking about the case but he talked ALOT about it in the Christian Post article, including about how she did all this emailing and he didnt do anything wrong. This makes me think he isnt prevented from talking at all, or he broke his non disclosure.

okrapod wrote:

@ Lowlandseer:
Of the things that I listed: tax evasion, computer ‘p’, malicious gossip, cheating in school and shady business practices which have you not either done, or seen, or know somebody who has done or read something about how prevalent it is?

If you add marital rape, emotional and physical abuse of children and me, slanderously destroying my reputation within our little community, bald faced lying, you can look at the groom in my wedding picture as Exhibit A from over 30 years ago. Pastor and church sided with him. Divorce 1 year anniversary next week. So grateful for the rescue and healing I have found.

Bridget wrote:

I believe these sure do need to be reported because of situations just like what has been discovered with Weinstein and other people with money and power. The same sorts of settlements were going on in that case and victims could not speak up and warn others about the predator. Lawyers, of course, are the ones that really make out in these cases. When the victims are silenced then the predatory behavior can continue.

The recent publicity of big name celebraties had several women and men victims that publicly said they werent going to go the legal route because of the non disclosure requirements that are put on victims. They said they wanted to warn others and not have to hide in shame. They did a heroic thing in my opinion. Im not judging people that do go to court- many had their lives destroyed and deserve financial recompense. But i did want to say Hooray! for people that came forward without it.

Dee Parsons wrote:

And this:
http://mail.maranatha-church.com/oldconcerned/timeline.html

Gosh so glad he brought this up!

“. A letter was written to Council by long-time members Kent and Marg Kirkland stating concerns over the changes in structure and the new healing ministry and specifically the use of psychological counselling without proper training… In the letter, the Kirklands shared their concerns that, over the past two years, the council had become smaller and less information was being shared by them with the congregation. They went on to state seven primary concerns that they wanted to be addressed. These concerns are almost identical to the specific concerns currently being raised and, it should be noted, this event was eleven years ago and those concerns have still not been dealt with. “John Visser diagnoses Brad Thompson with Social Attachment Disorder in a sermon. This diagnosis can be found on the tape “the father’s discipline” on the blessing and curses tape series. It is unethical for an un-accredited counsellor to impose a psychological diagnosis upon a client.
This is one of many instances of this sort of diagnosis being shared from the pulpit. In some cases the diagnosis’ were for disorders that even trained psychologists contend are very difficult to diagnose with any accuracy.”

· John Visser a director of Essence Communications Ltd. and pastor of Maranatha, announces from the pulpit that low cash flow was making payments on their business loan to the bank impossible and unless something happened within a week or so they would face insolvency

· Suggestions were made by a staff person to some members after the service that the congregation could raise money for Essence through equity loans on their homes.

· It is suggested by an Essence executive that $500,000-$600,000 would be needed to pull the company out of trouble.

· On March 12, 2005, on the Sunday following Pastor Johns revelation of the financial situation of his family company, an announcement is made by Bill Barrett (a former member who has now left the Church over concerns) with Felix Boer (a Deacon) that a meeting would be held at the Essence offices. Arrangements for the announcements were made without the knowledge or permission of Council. Discussions were had, days prior to the service with Pastor John who supported the idea and designated a place in both the 9 and 11 o-clock service schedules for it to be done. John Visser was not in attendance at either service when the announcements were made. On March 14, 2005 the meeting was held. It was organized by Bill Barrett and Felix Boer to solicit funds for the Vissers failing business. At the meeting the financial situation was explained by David Visser. David, Michael and John Visser were all present with 90 to 100 Church members. David Jones, a local pastor gave a message at the meeting on “mammon” and led the group in prayer. Pastor Jones has now spoken out publicly as a person with concerns about the goings on at Maranatha and the decisions of its leadership….”
Wow just wow. And Bradley Thompson was called an “Extortioner” for objecting to this and having lost money that he attempted to recoup in court????

Dee Parsons wrote:

http://mail.maranatha-church.com/oldconcerned/timeline.html

“June 2, 2005, Rock media is incorporated with Brad Thompson named as sole director. The company’s operations were run by David Visser. Brad Thompson had an arm’s length relationship with the operation. Rock Media was formed to protect a newspaper division owned by the Vissers that was still profitable.
The money collected from the members and their businesses was to be deposited to a separate numbered company using a C.I.B.C. business account. The numbered company was set up by David Visser through his lawyer. All the money collected was supposed to go through the C.I.B.C. account for the protection of the investors. Once the funds were in place, they could be transferred into Essence for paying off the debt. Brad Thompson and Bill Barrett were signing officers for the new numbered company. Only approximately $70,000, of the money collected was given to Brad and Bill to be deposited. The $70,000 that was deposited was eventually invested into Rock Media. The balance of the collected money remains unaccounted for.
In January of 2006 it was discovered that Essence was in fact over two million dollars in debt the majority of which was owed to members and staff of Maranatha and their businesses. Much of the money bypassed the numbered company and went directly into Essence in contravention of the terms of the agreement reached at the meeting one year earlier.

· In the fall of 2006, an additional $445,000 to $475,000 was raised from the congregation to inject money into the new company, Rock Media. This money was primarily earmarked to purchase equipment and to expand the newspaper division.

· John Visser stepped down as president of Essence in the fall of 2006, a few weeks before it goes bankrupt. His son David became President.

· In the fall of 2007 the CIBC asks Brad Thompson to close the Rock Media account and bank elsewhere with any accounts relating to the Vissers or their companies. Shortly after this event, Mr. Thompson received a surprise from Hasting County Sheriff’s office. It was a writ of seizure of personal assets for non-payment of government remittance by Rock media. According to Brad he was surprised to find $85,000 in remittances was not submitted to the government for the 6 months Rock Media had been in operation.

· Brad and Lori Ann Thompson take a sabbatical from the Church over concerns with how the Vissers were handling their business affairs. Brad relinquished his owner/directorship on November 1, 2007 and Juliet deWal became sole owner/director of Rock Media Inc..

· In the fall of 2007, Brad and Lori Anne Thompson sent a letter to council asking to talk with them without any of the counselling staff present about their concerns regarding the counselling ministry. Council did not allow this to occur until the spring of 2008. Brad and Lori Anne asked Council, in a letter, for an independent review of the counselling ministry.

· John Visser personally solicited money from members of the congregation on several occasions around this time. He has admitted this fact to council and they have extended forgiveness to him but this has never been revealed off the pulpit.”

Go to church, be taught that all ‘those people in the world’ are dangerous sinners, and if you dare question leadership the devil is using you? SMH

mot wrote:

So even if an atheist provides valid information he or she is a tool of Satan–really??

There were lots of pastors that rushed to the #ChurchToo twitterfeed and said the same thing, that the first tweets were from a lesbian and a yoga teacher and it was from the devil and told the women to stop posting. My response was ‘God said judgement begins in the house of God but the church refused, so He got a lesbian and a yoga teacher to do it and said ‘Thanks ladies!’

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

“Everybody’s Doing It” was also a line used years ago by a sexual predator trying to get into my pants. He failed.

Good for you HUG! Run…

@ Charis:
Thank you for condensing that better than i tried to.

Sheila Girl wrote:

the CONCEPT AND TRUTH that this woman is a victim is outrageous.

A male or female counselor that has a distraught person come to them for counseling is indeed seen as an abuser if they lead the counselee into a sexual relationship. The ‘victim’ is a victim if one uses their authority or position as a means to seduce. I think that is what you have missed in all of this. A police officer, judge, teacher, Dr Minister etc are always guilty in a situation involving someone without equal power, even if the victim is a slut. Or whatever biblical term you would use.

Steve Baughman wrote:

Yes. Ravi is being a coward. He claims he cannot discuss the lawsuit but he releases a lengthy press release about it.

Hey lawyer! 🙂
If he also had a non disclosure on himself how could he have given so much insight into the court case and Ms Thompson as he did? Do you think he has to remain silent? I think he just used that as an excuse to not answer questions he didnt want to answer.
If one has a non disclosure agreement how can he go into the whole affair in his press release statement after the settlement?

His public response:
“In October 2014, I spoke at a conference in Canada. At the conclusion of my talk, I met a couple who expressed an interest in our ministry. The wife asked if I would reach out to her husband because he had questions about the Christian faith. As requested, I followed up by sending an email and a book to him, and invited him to consider attending one of our educational programs at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM).

“Some months later, I traveled with my wife and one of our daughters to another part of Canada for a speaking engagement. The couple attended this event and invited my wife and me to dinner at a local restaurant afterwards. That was the second and last time I was ever in the same room with either of them.

“Subsequently, she began to contact me via the email address I had used to contact her husband after first meeting them. My responses were usually brief….blah blah blah”

* Me thinks he is being dishonest about being not required to talk about it…

okrapod wrote:

I don’t know if you mean that you experienced this or that you heard about it or what, but I can’t pass up the opportunity to say that not all churches are like this. It may take some looking around to find one that is compatible with what the individual thinks a church needs to be, but I found getting out and looking around to be a great idea for our family.

I agree, i made that comment while reading the ‘new reformed maranatha’ church scandal interspersed with reading the comments Stephen was posting here.

Sheila Girl wrote:

The BIBLE does NOT warn women about men laying these sexual snares for them, or sensuous men, does it?

Wrong. Men are not these innocent creatures in the face of perverted, sensuous, deceitful women.
“People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

It is hard to hear it when a respected Christian leader messes up. But it happens. After all, the whole story of our faith is that all of us are sinners deserving death, and Jesus came to rescue us from that. So we should not be surprised when reputation, intellect, money and power do not protect people from that sin.

When I first began investigating Ravi in 2015 it took me several hours to find out that he had no earned doctorate. @ sandy c:

Liz wrote:

lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God — having a form of godliness but denying its power

When confronted with sexual sin, too many church leaders reject the power to overcome it. In that moment, they become lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God.

I was trying to understand why atheists were the loudest people speaking out against Ravi Zacharias. Several people accused Steve Baughman of ‘attacking’ him and other well known atheists have been very vocal against Ravi also. I think i figured out why atheists particulary have been offended by Ravi….
I didn’t know anything about Ravi but since looking into his ministry i found that
Ravi has built his career based on being an intellectual and he’s been publicly challenging athiests for years! I think Ravi targeted them and they are responding as any group that was particulary singled out by a famous evangelist would.
Rzim has 10 podcasts against atheism, and there are over 20 youtube vids on Ravi vs the atheists, i didnt check ravis vimo channel but would guess theres a bunch there also.

“The primary mission of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries is to ****reach and challenge those who shape the ideas of a culture**** with the credibility of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Distinctive in its strong evangelistic and apologetic foundation, the ministry of RZIM ****is intended to touch both the heart and the intellect of the thinker and influencers of society***** through the support of the visionary leadership of Ravi Zacharias.”
http://rzim.org/about/vision/

I am not defending atheism- just saying if ravi had targeted say planned parenthood or some other particular group- they also would be more outraged to find out he’s been lying about alot of things.

If your going to portrait yourself as David against Goliath, you should be sure when you go out publicly to fight him that you have the right stones for your slingshot (the Rock of your salvation) and that you can stand in Truth and not have to explain hiding behind falsehood.

There is nothing new under the sun. Be it Infidelity….Academic manipulation….
Power mania ….etc. What was….is today….will be tomorrow….
Solution: Confess. Repent. Get right. Face repercussions. Move forward….walk through the labrynth of life…..get to the exit point to meet the King of Kings……..

The “victim/abuser” paradigm really takes focus away from what seems most important here. Ravi Zacharias threatened suicide to cover up whatever it was, victim, abuser, whatever, that went on between him and Ms. T.

Given his status as a renowned and highly influential apologist, I consider that explosive. Whether the woman was a willing participant or a grooming victim on today’s fashionable spectrum seems not so interesting. We all know that Mr. Zacharias threatened suicide to keep it private. That is the explosive stuff that the Christian media apparently does not want to touch. Sad.

@ Sheila Girl:

sandy c wrote:

Something else i did not know about Ravi Zacharias:
“Statement of Faith
We believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth; And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord……
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church….”
http://rzim.org/about/vision/

That is the Apostles’ Creed. Millions upon millions of us believe that and recite that. We may disagree a tad on exactly what is meant by some of the words, but that does not stop us from accepting the creed.

@ sandy c:
The “catholic” in the Apostles’ Creed is small-c catholic, just a word meaning “universal” (one worldwide church), not meaning the Roman Catholic Church (big-C). Plenty of Protestants affirm that creed with that understanding of the word “catholic”.

sandy c wrote:

This reminds me of a conclusion that Ministry Watch came to- if Zacharias had indeed sent Ms Thompson emails telling her to stop sending him unsolicited emails why didnt he just produce those and prove his innocence and they would have had no case whatsoever!

Yes! Plus– the snippets of Mr Z’s email (absolutely authentic) which we did get are IMPOSSIBLE to have come from a victim of unsolicited sexts, stalking, and extortion. Those to Mrs T are desperate to avoid being outed. The later one to Mr T is apologetic.

bendeni wrote:

The “catholic” in the Apostles’ Creed is small-c catholic, just a word meaning “universal” (one worldwide church), not meaning the Roman Catholic Church (big-C). Plenty of Protestants affirm that creed with that understanding of the word “catholic”.

Last month RZIM faith statement said “Universal catholic” and i had never heard either version before. I thought the Apostles were Methodists 🙂

I think Mark Bryant’s demand letter bordered on extortion. But that does not change the fact that Ravi gave the Thompsons plenty of ammo to blackmail him with.

I found Bryant’s letter to be legally vapid. The Thompson’s would have lost the case if that’s all the legally relevant stuff they had.

But Ravi never had to worry about a legal attack from the Thompsons. It was that explosive dirt that made him settle the case.

Dee Parsons wrote:

Stephen wrote:

Julie Anne
How do you guys reconcile, or maybe a better word “understand” the $5 million dollars the lawyer tried to get from Ravi?
http://www.raviwatch.com/public/assets/9-1.pdf
I’ve read the personal emails that are no longer available. They show emotion on both sides, but there’s not clarity that both sides agree what the emotion is based on. It’s hard to see those emails and then look at the $5 million demand and reconcile it. They don’t seem to fit together.
It’s also difficult to understand this:
http://www.intelligencer.ca/2008/10/07/man-claims-1-million-in-damages
And this:
http://mail.maranatha-church.com/oldconcerned/timeline.html
Which show the couple were involved in suing previous Christian leadership. They have very unfortunately been hurt by Christian leadership, and have felt the need to sue that leadership on multiple occasions…..or this is something else entirely.
The only thing we know for sure, Ravi, and the Thompsons, are loved by God, created by Him to serve Him, and we should pray that there would be repentance, healing, and forgiveness experienced by them all.

Did you read this lawsuit? There was some pretty strange stuff going on at the church. There was lots of money involved, The pastor’s role seemed very odd as well. I don’t think this situation helps in the RZ case.

New post up at Spiritual Sounding Board: “Resource Archive and FAQs on the Ravi Zacharias and RZIM Situation.” It includes numerous links to primary source documents, plus links to posts with observations, analysis, and interpretations.

This was developed in response to what look to be the most frequently asked questions about all the parties involved. So far, concerns addressed include about the lawsuits, RZIM board of directors and staff, Mr. Zacharias’ credentials and titles, updating of biographies and titles, and impact of the non-disclosure agreement.

https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2017/12/08/resource-archive-and-faqs-on-the-ravi-zacharias-and-rzim-situation/

Sheila, Even if everything you say is accurate, the question remains, did Mr. Zacharias threaten suicide to cover it all up?

That is the question that so far the Christian press has not published a single thing on. I find that astonishing

@ Sheila Girl:

@ I love everyone:

That’s easy to answer. As one Ex-Satanist testified; It is the mission of Satan to discredit everything Christian and anything to do with Jesus. Satanists actually set up pastors by sending in women who need counselling and their sole mission is to make the pastor fall, sexually.

You can’t discredit Jesus. But you can discredit the one that brings the message of Jesus.

I have been involved Mr. Zacharias ministry for more than 10 years. Ravi is one of the nicest, most humble men I have ever met. He absolutely adores his wife and family.

During his travels he goes through great pains to vanquish any possibility of getting into a compromising position. He has people all around him all the time. These people accompany him everywhere. He goes almost nowhere by himself. He and his employees have put these measures in place spicifically to guard him against unwanted contact. Physically it would be nearly impossible for him to be compromised even if he wanted to.

However, as he stated, he did not have enough safeguards on digital communications.

If you look at the track record of the couple in Canada you can clearly see this was extortion pure and simple. Several years ago this couple filed suit against a pastor named Visser at a Maranatha Church. The verbiage they use to describe the complaint against Visser and Maranatha is almost exactly the verbiage they use to distribute the wrongs perpetrated on them by Ravi. Their lawyer even contacted Ravi to demand $5,000,000 in hush money.

Bottom line, when you look at the facts it is nearly impossible to conclude that Ravi did anything wrong. Other than what he said which was to engage in communication with a woman who was not his wife. Even though his intention was to help her and her husband.

Frankly, the actions of this couple make me sick to my stomach.

I don’t believe its fair to brush off opposing views as sticking head in sand. Be careful yourself not to only see things that validate your own beliefs or unbeliefs. Of course we are all ‘sinners’ and prone to temptation, me…you…RZ. But that does not mean how it is being spun here is how it happened. I know of this couple, and of the female for longer than they have been a couple. This is the fourth stunt like this that the female in the relationship is pulling something. Not the second, the fourth. This is the second stunt like this for the couple since they became a ‘couple’. They are not the ones who are being victimized and ‘burned’. There is a very long history of her in her lifetime making false accusations linked to demands for big sums of money. The male is no less a victim. The male has a successful business that was obtained at the expense of others (again throwing false accusations that destroyed other employees and got him to the top). This couple lives in a multi-millon dollar mansion. They also have a cottage worth near $800,000 or more. Please do not feel sorry for them as victims. They are expert fraud artists who feed off of vulnerable well-intentioned people. They usually pick christians as they are easy to ‘hook’with their dramatic stories of victimization and the targets fall for it wanting to help them. Thus starts the trap.

@ brad/futuristguy:

Thanks. This is VERY insightful.

Brian wrote:

This is the fourth stunt like this that the female in the relationship is pulling something. Not the second, the fourth. This is the second stunt like this for the couple since they became a ‘couple’

Brian, this intrigues me. I understand the husband had a formal complaint against Maranatha many years ago, but i would be interested to hear if you had any links or evidence to support your claim that there are actually four instances of “pulling something”. I am not here to argue, just want to hear more of the story (nothing on Netflix at the moment – HA)

Steve Baughman wrote:

Brian, I am an attorney and would be very happy to look into your allegations if you would share your evidence.

Steve, would you kindly stay out of my head?

Steve Baughman wrote:

Brian, please step up to the plate with support for your serious allegations.

I totally agree. If there are other lawsuits that would have a big impact on how to evaluate this.