“You get hit the hardest when trying to run or hide from a problem. Like the defense on a football field, putting all focus on evading only one defender is asking to be blindsided.” Criss Jami link
In August 2016, TWW posted How Fellowship Memphis and Downtown Church Mishandled Rick Trotter’s Alleged Voyeurism. Today, I am thinking about how the following statement, which ended that post, applies to Matt Chandler and the leadership of The Village Church.
I, along with Deb and many readers, am sick and tired of celebrity pastors trying to tell us that they care for our souls when they blow off sexual predation in their midst. Even Al Mohler has been known to joke about such matters. Until I see churches within The Gospel Coalition and Acts 29 getting serious about this sin, their protestations of authority, etc. will be met by me with a vehement shake of the head and by my telling future church attendees to refrain from trusting their church leaders.
What did Matt Chandler and the leadership really learn from the Karen Hinkley mess?
You can read a synopsis on this situation here or you can read the many posts we wrote on the situation. Here is the bottom line. Matt Chandler apologized to Karen for saying that her child porn loving husband was walking in repentance and that she was sinning by having her marriage annulled. He seemed to indicate that he got sexual molestation and voyeurism through his experience in this situation.
Due to the following situation, I am not convinced that he understands the pain of victims.
Bryan Loritts addressed racial reconciliation for The Village Church
Bryan Loritts is now featured as a resource on racial reconciliation for The Village Church on a podcast for The Village Church posted on March 23, 2017. Loritts addresses this difficult matter in a talk titled How the Gospel is Our Only Hope for Racial Reconciliation. I am sure that his thoughts are helpful. However, the Bible appears to indicate that a man's life is to bear witness to his character. More on that momentarily.
In this talk, Loritts talks about love. He says that love doesn't ignore but calls out and that love has hard conversations. I am going to take his advice and do just what he suggests. I am going take him up on his teaching and call out The Village Church leadership.
The history of Bryan Loritts
Once again, I refer to our post How Fellowship Memphis and Downtown Church Mishandled Rick Trotter’s Alleged Voyeurism. The following is a direct quote from that post. Please pay attention to these folks. There are significant family ties between Crawford and Bryan Loritts and Rick Trotter.
Pay particular attention to the Acts 29 connection. Matt Chandler is the head of that organization. Also, Crawford Loritts is on The Gospel Coalition Council. Matt Chandler has close ties to that group as well.
Begin long quote from post
The cast of characters
Rick Trotter:
He is the brother in law of Bryan Loritts and a former employee of Fellowship Memphis and Downtown Church. He is also the former announcer for the Memphis Grizzlies of the National Basketball Association. On 8/9/2016 he was arrested on four counts of charges that he photographed someone without their consent at the Downtown Church. He has a previous history of doing the same thing at Fellowship Memphis in 2010 but was not arrested.
From what I can tell, Rick Trotter does not hold any college or seminary degrees. He apparently graduated from high school and had some interest in the performing arts as a teen. if anyone knows of other degrees, please let us know.
- Graduate of Tri-Cities High School of Visual and Performing Arts.
- Trotter worked as a restaurant manager at Chick-Fil-A.
This background apparently qualified him to be the worship leader at both Fellowship Memphis and Downtown Church. It probably didn't hurt that he was the brother-in-law to Bryan Loritts.
Bryan Loritts:
He is the co-founder and former lead pastor of Fellowship Memphis.he then served a few months as a pastor at Trinity Grace Church in New York City. After that stint, he now serves as the pastor of Abundant Life Christian Fellowship in California. He is the President of the Kainos Movement, an organization aimed at establishing the multi-ethnic church in America as the new normal. He is the devoted brother-in-law of Rick Trotter who worked with him at Fellowship Memphis. He is a popular speaker. He recently spoke at Summit Church here is Raleigh and is currently speaking at Russell Moore's 2016 ERLC conference along with Matt Chandler.
John Bryson:
He is the current lead pastor at Fellowship Memphis which he helped found with Bryan Loritts. He recently became a former board member of Acts 29 (he claims he just rotated off.)
Fellowship Memphis:
This is a church which started in 2003 with the admirable goal of being a multicultural church in the heart of Memphis. Rick Trotter worked for this church for a period of time before being terminated in 2010 due to making a voyeuristic video of women utilizing the church's restroom.
Downtown Church
This is a multicultural church in Memphis which started in 2010. According to the website:
Rick Trotter came on as Interim Worship Leader in August 2011.
He was terminated in May 2016 when he got caught kneeling behind a woman during the service taking a picture with his a cell phone.
Not involved but important to the story.
Crawford Loritts:
He is the senior pastor of Fellowship Bible Church in Roswell, Georgia. He holds an earned Bachelor of Science degree in Bible with an emphasis on pastoral studies. He claims multiple doctorates but they appear to be honorary. Please correct me if I am wrong. He is on the board of CRU (Campus Crusade for Christ) and is a visiting professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. More importantly, he is a council member of The Gospel Coalition and is heavily involved in conferences, speaking, etc.
He is the father of Bryan Loritts and the father in law to Rick Trotter.
End of long quote
What happened to Rick Trotter and how does Bryan Loritts figure in?
From that same post, we now give an overview with what happened. If you do not understand the serious problems with voyeurism, a difficult paraphilia to overcome, read the rest of that post in which we give a short overview and links to understand the situation. Folks, it is far more difficult that you can imagine.
Begin long quote
The overview
This overview contains the allegation in this story. On Monday we will discuss them in detail while at the same time throwing in an interesting side story or two which may give some deeper insight into the situation.
In 2010, a video camera was found in a women's restroom at Fellowship Memphis. After some investigation on the part of Bryan Loritts and others, it was discovered that Rick Trotter was the one who placed the recorder. It allegedly showed a number of women taking care of their personal business in the bathroom, obviously expecting privacy.
Rick Trotter confessed to this and shared the videos which he had stored on his phone. At this point the story gets downright weird and upsetting. According to the Commercial Appeal, the church claimed that they reported this to the police.The police have denied receiving such a report. One victim claimed to have been told by church leaders that the evidence had been destroyed because the police told them to do it. (Ed. comment: Good night!)
They said they had already consulted with the police and they were told to destroy the evidence," she said.
The church informed the victims of what had transpired and asked them not to report this to the police because it would harm Rick Trotter's career.
The adult victim said they were discouraged from filing charges to avoid affecting Trotter's life and career.
"They said that no one would consider pressing charges because it would ruin his life and he had a family.
The women were told to meet with Trotter and his wife to discuss this.
After that, Trotter and his wife met with some of the alleged victims at their house, three of the alleged victims said, a process that at least one of the women refused to take part in. The church statement doesn't mention those sessions.
"They made us meet with him, with Rick Trotter. Sit down with him and his wife. That's terrible. I couldn't handle that at the time," said the adult woman, who left the church almost immediately after this happened.
Bryson denied the above accounts. He even claimed that no minors were involved.
In the statement, Bryson denied that any minors were recorded, and said the church "asked whether (the victims) wanted to press charges. The victims were also offered independent professional counseling paid for by the church. It is our understanding that none of the victims at that time chose to press charges."
However, the Commercial Appeal reported that at least two minors have come forward. I have also been told by an individual that there were minors involved.
At this point, Trotter was terminated from Fellowship Memphis and sent to sex addiction rehab, which was allegedly paid for by the church according to the Commercial Appeal.
After Fellowship Memphis leaders fired him for "inappropriate conduct of a sexual nature" in 2010, they supported his wife and children while they paid for him to get three months of counseling.
However, it is alleged that the church community was not told of Trotter's problem. One individual attempted to get the word out and was allegedly threatened with church discipline.
Shortly after this treatment, Trotter applied for a job as a worship leader at Downtown Church. According to the Commercial Appeal, Fellowship Memphis told them there had only been one incident (although that one incident involved in a number of women.) Showing a profound lack of common sense on the part of both church, Trotter was hired.
After Trotter applied for a job at Downtown Church in 2011, pastors and elders of both churches met and discussed his past transgressions.
They got his permission to speak openly about how he used his smartphone to secretly record women in Fellowship's restroom.
Downtown Church leaders spoke to his counselors "to determine the effectiveness of the treatment as well as his readiness to re-enter the ministry."
They met with Trotter and his wife "to assess his readiness to re-enter the ministry as well as overall health."
They gave him "an accountability plan" and hired him part-time. They hired him full-time in 2014, but only after he made "a statement of full-disclosure" to the congregation.
Their naive trust was misplaced. They eventually discovered Trotter taking pictures up women's skirts in church. Who knows how long he had been doing this? He has been terminated by both the Downtown Church and the Grizzlies.
End long quote
Let's review the concerns in this situation.
- Rick Trotter confessed to Lorrits and Bryson that he allegedly was using a camera to film women in the women's restroom.
- Loritts and Bryson allegedly told the victims not to go to the police and even allegedly told them that the police said to throw the tape away.
- Trotter was terminated from his position, was sent to rehab and was rehired by another church.
- No one alerted the new church of this situation. Trotter allegedly offended again.
Bryan Loritts seems to have had no trouble hiring Peter Newman even after his arraignment.
TWW wrote, in August 2016, Peter Newman, Serving 35 Years for Molestations at Kamp Kanakuk, Was Allegedly Hired by Fellowship Memphis While Awaiting Trial. For those of you who do not know the history of Pete Newman, please read the entire post. This horrific pedophile who molested boys for years at Kamp Kanakuk, is serving 35 years in prison. More is coming in this situation in the future and we will keep you up to date.
In that post, we wrote about Bryan Loritts involvement with the hiring of Newman.
Begin long quote
In 2009, Fellowship Memphis apparently decided that Peter Newman would be a wonderful person to hire!!!!!
I want to thank the former attendee of this church for revealing the following information. Unfortunately, it seems to indicate that Fellowship Memphis does not take either child sex abuse or voyeurism seriously.
Due to previous friendships and employment, there was supposedly a connection between Fellowship Memphis and some of the folks at Kanakuk. For example, David Newman, Peter Newman's twin, who spoke out on his behalf, is a pastor at Antioch Church of the Y which is part of Fellowship Associates as is Fellowship Memphis. (We will be discussing this group in the near future.)
The following is the alleged timeline as best as our informant can remember.
- Spring 2009: Peter Newman leaves Kanakuk.
- Summer 2009: Newman is hired by Fellowship Memphis as a curriculum writer and is given a place to live.
- June 2009: Newman produces a written confession of his crimes.
- September 2009: Newman is arrested & then released on $50,000 bond along with a court order not to be around children but he continues working at the church.
- January 2010: Newman finally leaves the church to stand trial.
Our informant, having heard about the Newman situation, questioned Bryan Loritts about Peter Newman's position at the church. Loritts allegedly responded "It was just some skinny dipping thing." As far as our informant knows, the church attendees were not informed of Peter Newman's serious issues. Newman allegedly had full access to the church which, of course, has children.
Fellowship Memphis appears to have no problem exposing their congregation to a child sex abuser.
Peter Newman was hired by Fellowship Memphis. They had connections at Kamp Kanakuk and could have easily made a call to learn the issues surrounding Newman. Since they are supposedly intelligent men, I will assume that they checked this out. That leads me to believe that the church leaders at the time, including John Bryson and Bryan Loritts, did not take crimes of a sexual nature seriously, especially if the person involved has friends and family connections.
End long quote
To this outsider, it appears that Bryan Loritts went to bat for his brother in law. He seemed to bounce around a bit after he left Fellowship Memphis heading to New York for a few months and then out to California.
It also appears that groups like TGC and Acts 29 go to bat for their boys. In fact, if you read the quotes posts as well as here and here, you can read of the incredible ties between these churches, Acts 29, The Gospel™ Coalition, and some other groups such as Fellowship Associates and Authentic Manhood. It is really quite stunning to me. Never forget that a couple of leading members of TGC were staunch supporters of CJ Mahaney.
Rick Trotter Update
In November 2016, The Commercial Appeal posted Rick Trotter case heads to grand jury. He is currently out on $70,000 bond. ding his case to a grand jury to decide about an indictment.
Former Memphis Grizzlies announcer Rick Trotter waived a preliminary hearing Monday, binding his case to a grand jury to decide about an indictment.
Fellowship Church update
From WMC5 News, Fellowship Church hires crisis management team following Rick Trotter's arrest. Amy Smith gave a public comment on behalf of SNAP.(Yay Amy!)
Representatives with the firm confirm they are looking into the Rick Trotter investigation, but said it is not a public relations firm, but instead, a law firm that handles public strategy. Their website, though, displays services like reputation protection and crisis management.
Amy Smith, a volunteer leader with a national group called Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, was contacted by members of the church.
"It feels like a use of intimidation and, also, a loss of trust," Smith said.
More focus should be on building the case against Trotter, not building a better image for the church, Smith added.
"I've seen this play out before," she said. "What happens when the church is prioritizing its reputation and brand management over victims."
Final Thoughts
I am weary of the number of allegations about the covering up of sex abuse, paraphilias, etc. in churches. There is one way, and one way only, to deal with this problem. Churches must call the police and let them investigate. Stop covering up for tribal dudebros. It is not the fault of a church that a person with this predilection shows up. It is the fault of the church for not dealing with it in a straight forward matter.
It is possible that Chandler did not know of this situation with Loritts. That would make me concerned. He is the head of Acts 29. This is a related church. If he cannot keep up with all of his irons in the fire, he should delegate things like this to those who do have the time.
When there is an ongoing investigation, churches and Christian organizations should refrain from featuring men who have allegedly not taken this sort of situation seriously. Did Matt Chandler ever imagine how the victims of Rick Trotter's activities might feel when he featured a man who allegedly covered up his brother in law's activities? Think first about the victims for a change!
As far as I am concerned, The Village Church, along with many other churches, have a long way to go before they *get it.*
Am I first? Can it be? Whoopee!
“As far as I am concerned, The Village Church, along with many other churches, have a long way to go before they *get it.*” – Dee
So true. In my opinion, Matt Chandler has no excuse for his deplorable behavior.
The Acts 29 crowd is a strange lot of failed and failing “ministers” (Driscoll, Patrick, etc.). They obviously have little discernment about each other and/or protect each other’s back, and/or don’t give a big whoop what the rest of us think.
@ Darlene:
Whoop!!!!
I have posted a new update on the open discussion thread. Thank you all.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-12/#comment-316340
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
I never thought Matt Chandler ‘got’ anything except that it was bad PR. Which led to the non-apology apology.
That Newman thing still blows my mind. Church should not be an institution dedicated to hiring sex predators who have gotten rightly fired from their previous jobs. What on earth???
Good old boys club plus nepotism. That’s all these little para church orgs and associations seem to be.
Not just the church that doesn’t “get it”. A jury last Friday convicted the ex-president of Penn State of a misdomeaner count of child endangerment related to the Jerry Sandusky scandal. He and his “bros” were able to get allot of charges thrown out on technicalities, but at least they nailed him on one!!!
While i greave for the kids, i celbrate the conviction…. i have seen enough cover-ups/lack of spins in University leaders… it about time the big boys have to be accountable….
Maybe it was all those women’s fault for exposing too much skin. Rick Trotter just couldn’t help himself. Snark finished.
On another note, if I were one of those victims, I’d be concerned about whether or not that video tape still exists somewhere. We know how certain criminals like to revisit the scene of a crime. Many take clothing and/or jewelry from their victims in order to relive the experience over and over again when they touch those items. Could it be that Rick Trotter or someone else that knows him, has knowledge of the whereabouts of that video? Could it be that the video was never destroyed – that Trotter still has access to it? I know I know… such surmising enters into creepy territory. I just can’t help wondering what actually happened to that video.
Max wrote:
It’s all about the conference circuit, speaking at each other’s churches and promoting each other’s books.
Lea wrote:
It’s built right into their theology. “Pastor” is the head of the headships. Questioning the pastor is questioning God, since headship represents God. The peons must sign covenants to affirm this “Gospel” truth. Oh wait, too many peons questioning, lets form a coalition where the pastors help each other squash nosy peons!
None of these people should be anywhere near other people, much less in ministry.
Lea wrote:
It’s a tangled, deceptive web of the Mutual Idolization Society. It also serves them well in being quite the lucrative venture.
“As far as I am concerned, The Village Church, along with many other churches, have a long way to go before they *get it.*” (Dee)
What they “get” is that it’s working for them! Chandler et al. would not have a stage if it weren’t for an audience. The Generation Xers and Millennials which follow such leaders desire pastors who aren’t a lot different than them. They will pay to support church leaders who will keep them swimming in shallow water, who don’t “preach” hard things at them, who don’t challenge them to pursue holy and pure living. Twisted Scripture preached by dude-bros with cool bands feels good. Yep, if it weren’t for a gullible audience, the New Calvinist stage would not exist. In such setting, you can darn near expect anything – so we shouldn’t be surprised that New Calvinist leaders keep making room for their own, even if they have shady backgrounds and questionable behavior. The don’t get it because they don’t have to … their audience ain’t fussing about it.
Off-topic announcement:
Shauna and her son Billy in Texas have pressing financial needs and would appreciate help.
Shauna works part-time at a grocery store.
Needs
*Rent – $700
*Food
*Gasoline
*Car Insurance
*Phone bill
*Trash bill
*Water bill
*Clothing and shoes for Billy
Here is the GoFundMe campaign: https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
Thank you.
^Note: Dee covered the story of Shuana’s son Billy being abused by a church member.
You ask: What did Matt Chandler and the leadership really learn from the Karen Hinkley mess?
That their flock of true believers are as interested in their accountability as the fools who are at Fellowship, Gateway, and Eagle Mountain International every Sunday. And they just recently published an episode of their Culture Matters podcast called “The Cultural Epidemic of Domestic Violence”.
If they succeed in racial reconciliation in the name of Christ, good for them. But I don’t think opening a branch campus in Southlake: median income $173000 and 94.5% white, as they did in 2015 is the most logical first step for that.
Their mouths say they care about racial justice and protecting women. Their actions say they’re just another phony north DFW mega.
Darlene wrote:
This is one big reason why I think many of these neo-Cal pastors are frauds and don’t really believe the things they tell others to believe.
18th?
Any sort of spiritual leader succumbing to wicked temptations (to put it incredibly charitably) and victimizing the innocent in his/her care is vile. But I think covering up for that leader is doubly evil. It inflicts a double dose of pain and shame on the first round of victims, but also, as we see here, leads to a whole new round of causing Jesus’ little ones to stumble.
The millstone would have been better.
I remembered Bryan Loritts preaching about giving up your rights, a la Bill Gothard. Maybe that’s what they all said to those who were abused. https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20130205070052/http://fellowshipmemphis.org/bryanloritts?p=77
Sexual predatory behavior is something Rev Chandler deplores.
But Chandler wants to “succeed” most of all. He wants to have an impact on today’s world. And he wants to work on the issues that are hot button issues, one of which is racial reconciliation. This issue is high on the agenda of the Gospel Coalition, the ERLC, T4G, and related affinity groups.
Ergo, Chandler cannot lose the opportunity to work toward racial reconciliation by not promoting a guy like Loritts. Letting Lorrits’ failures get in the way of the racial reconciliation agenda is NOT going to happen.
Chandler definitely sees himself in the club with Mohler, Dever, and the others. He will push this racial reconciliation thing hard as long as he can.
But if the Dallas Morning News or some other outlet runs a story about the Village Church and Loritts’ past that hurts the agenda, Chandler will back off fast and completely.
I will watch to see if this happens.
It all depends of how much negative publicity occurs.
Darlene wrote:
Whether it’s true or not, it’s a relevant thing to ask because probably every woman in that church will live with that thought hovering at the edge of their mind for the rest of their lives, and it will be there, on some level, long after Mr. Trotter has served his time.
The blog slacktivist at patheos has a post on 3-11-17 entitled *Augustine Frost, Calvinist Detective*. There are 30s style covers for several stories. One has the cover comment on the order of *He was unable to save her, she was predestined to fail.*
Friend wrote:
We will award you Argon, 18th on the Periodic Table.
Here’s something funny that comes to my mind. The apostle Paul wrote about how he was nothing special as a speaker. I get the feeling he may have even been hard to listen to unless you were really interested in the subject matter. But he had proven character.
Today, people are enthralled with skillful speakers. The character of the person doesn’t matter at all. It’s all about marketing and illusion. Create a persona and play it. Keep the creepy stuff swept under the rug. And people flock to listen to speakers and buy their books and repost their inane thoughts. And what do these speakers really have to say? Nothing of value that you couldn’t figure out and tell yourself, and many things that are questionable.
Why do you spend your money for what is not bread? And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Why do people feel the need for these figureheads to follow and identify with. They are only men, no different than you, maybe worse, maybe more deceptive. The ability to stand on a stage and entertain an auditorium of people has no bearing on spiritual value.
Men of low degree are only vanity and men of rank are a lie;
In the balances they go up;
They are together lighter than breath.
When/How did the church in the US cease to be a haven for victims (as God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Bible, the Gospel message imply) and establish itself as a haven for perpetrators?
I find myself astonished that a father and a brother would cover for such betrayal of their daughter/sister by her husband. I am sure I would be indignant (at least) and quite likely livid if my sister’s husband pulled anything like this. Can they not even muster up compassion for their own relative? No. No, they can’t.
Tree wrote:
And these are the “real”, “authentic” Manhood folks?
Strange practice/definition of Manhood. A click off, it seems.
@ Tree:
Regarding another breaking situation, a man said he saw a Marine while shopping, and thought, “I am thankful for your service to our country, but I wonder what kind of Marine you are?”
With those on the dole of the faith community, one wonders what kind of person they really are. Do they simply carry the title and collect the $$$, or do they walk the walk? Right down to how they treat others great and small, in public, in private, with electronics.
Darlene wrote:
All about the Benjamins, Baby.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Weird Al rocks.
Although in his case it was the pentiums.
I would enjoy being a fly on the wall for any conversations between Crawford Loritts and his son over this sorry situation.
JYJames wrote:
https://medium.com/@JB.Martinez/is-covering-up-abuse-authentic-manhood-fed9593b2af3
@ Rebecca:
Woa. So many things! Apparently he has the right to kick back and do nothing at home, because man? I guess? He has the right to get P.A.I.D. He has all sorts of rights.
If he were giving this ‘give up your rights’ to defense speech to his BIL I would be all for it.
@ Nancy2:
Nancy, the part of that story that sticks out (although its all awful) is this:
Threat. IMO. Threat of humiliation in front of strangers. That’s what these so called ‘christians’ used to keep these women quiet. Awful.
Velour wrote:
Thanks, that’s very noble of you. 😉
Rebecca wrote:
I would not be surprised. Some of these guys say that to those harmed by domestic violence regularly.
Friend wrote:
Welcome!
Anonymous Oracle at Delphi wrote:
That means he puts sexual predatory behavior on the back burner to his own success. That means he doesn’t really care in my book.
There are many African American men who are well know in gospel™ circles who have not done what Loritts allegedly did. He could have used one of them. He didn’t.
@ FTFaculty:
That is so true.
@ TomkeinOK:
I have got to read this. I am putting into a draft that I am planning on doing regarding this subject.
Lea wrote:
The part that really gets me is the fact that, after helping cover for Trotter, Bryson has the gall to speak at a women’s luncheon??? What could he possibly have say to women? Do these “authentic men” like Loritts and Bryson tell all abuse victims to keep their mouths shut as a big part of their “gospel” ministry?
@ TomkeinOK:
I. read about Fred Clark. This line made me laugh.
“He began blogging in 2002. In 2003 he began writing a review of the best-selling Left Behind series. Eight years later he still hasn’t finished reviewing the second book of that series and the experience has left him a broken shell of a man.”
siteseer wrote:
Great observation about Paul!
Tree wrote:
She is just a woman. He is a man
NJ wrote:
Scheming on how to cover it up…However, they have the game advantage. They are playing for TGC and Acts 29 who have a bit of a history…
@ Friend:
LOL!
@ Anonymous Oracle at Delphi:
I have asked Amy Smith for a little help on your couched suggestion.!
Joe Reed wrote:
Thank you for getting it.
@ Friend:
I need more coffee to officially verify the count. However, for a totally voluntary yet significant love offering, I could move your comment into a more significant slot.
Stan wrote:
Stan,
This is an excellent observation. I wonder how much money they spent on that little endeavor. I guess they want to be first in “bring in the $sheaves.$
This might be a bit off-topic, but it does involve seriously manly men.
The Stronger Men Conference, featuring Pastor John Lindell, Robert Madu, Eric Mason, and, wait for it… Mark Driscoll. Also, a lumberjack competition, a UFC fighter, and an NFL panel. No, I’m not kidding.
http://strongermen.org/
There might be a theme of racial reconciliation, which I fully support. But what’s the point of racial reconciliation when you promote a shallow image of manliness and keep the womenfolks in their place? Gender reconciliation isn’t on the radar.
Max wrote:
I totally agree with you. Chandler’s church has 6,000+ attendees. It is quite easy. to get lost in the crowd. Poor Karen Hinkely made the mistake of asking them for help and comfort. They did not know what they were doing and they obviously did not understand the Bible when it comes to pedophilia and child porn. This is simplistic Christianity and I am getting tired of the little equations the Calvinists apply to very complex situations.
It’s like they jump from *thing* to *thing.* Two years ago, Al Mohler said that young earth creationism was the cause of the moment. That didn’t fly because Tim Keller is a theistic evolutionist. Now it is racial reconciliation. Two year from now, it will be something new.
One thing they will never focus on is child sex abuse and domestic violence in the churches. It is too difficult because too many of their compadres have screwed in handling these situations.
Anonymous Oracle at Delphi wrote:
What from your personal interactions with Matt Chandler indicates that he deplores sexual predatory behavior?
Darlene wrote:
I should have title this post “The Bathshebas of the Bathroom.”
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Thank you for calling this to our attention.
dee wrote:
Ha! It’s the same isn’t it. David was where he wasn’t supposed to be and it’s still Bathshebas fault. Can’t win for losing, if you’re female with some people.
Stan wrote:
Seriously. He doesn’t care enough to actually act like it. Of course, pastors all get a pass for not acting the right way. Why not? They mostly all seem to do it. Matt Chandler gave himself a pass, why not everyone else?
Velour wrote:
Thank you to the two people who made donations to the GoFundMe account for Shauna and Billy.
More donations are needed and kindly appreciated to help with their April expenses.
Thank you.
Anonymous Oracle at Delphi wrote:
Yep, the New Calvinist who’s-who stick together like glue until the potato gets too hot to handle (e.g., Mark Driscoll).
Speaking of racial reconciliation, New Calvinists still accuse traditional (non-Calvinist) members of the “Southern” Baptist Convention as leaning racist. While there may still be remnant of that attitude (hate dies slowly), this really isn’t an issue in SBC life that they make it to be. It’s just another gimmick to get SBC’s Generation Xers and Millennials on the “right” side.
JYJames wrote:
When the Money got too good.
And Pastor(TM) became Republican Kingmaker (ed.)
Max wrote:
Then why don’t they restore another old old SBC tradition about Peculiar Institutions and Animate Property?
My informants tell me in talking with Millenials (when they look up from their smartphones) that a lot of them have the attitude “What’s wrong with slavery?” And that the one question that they always bring up unprompted (volunteering the information in much more direct language) is Massa’s sexual rights to their animate property.
dee wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewFBuYHldeY
“Throw the tape away”
What???
What tape???
This isn’t the age of VCR TAPES!
He used his smart phone.
That means the recordings are on electronic files. Not tapes.
There is no tape to throw away.
I would bet that any file was deleted from logical computerized filing places that might be found BUT that he has sent to himself, in a secret email, a copy of the file.
A guy like this is shifty.
But why would anyone think there was a tape and that it has been destroyed?
Or am I missing something?
ishy wrote:
Ishy, that’s it! Easy as that! Bloomin’ vipers…
Bryan Lorritts pastors a church in the greater San Francisco Bay Area called Abundant Life Christian Fellowship.
The former pastor Paul Shepherd had to step down due to adulterous conduct(don’t know if it was a member or not). After laying low for a bit Shepherd started a new church in the east bay called Destiny Church(?). Even has a radio broadcast.
Donna D wrote:
Yes, Abundant Life Christian Fellowship is in Silicon Valley.
I was invited there by a friend. I didn’t like the former pastor Paul Shepherd, who made digs at his quiet wife from the pulpit. I thought, “Wow. That’s hostile. What is their marriage like? What is he doing to her?”
He also described Jesus as being a really buffed out dude, from all of his carpentry work,
as though Jesus has been at the gym. Sigh. Some people NEVER get it. The crowd laughed.
I vowed never to return.
Velour wrote:
METASTASIZED DRISCOLLOMA.
siteseer wrote:
“THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!
THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!”
— Acts 12:21-22
JYJames wrote:
When it was to Pastor-Dictator’s Personal Benefit.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Sounds like Davey Blackburn.
Velour wrote:
Guys like Shepherd, Driscoll, and TT need to put down their books, take off their Guccis, try on a pair of steel-toe Brogan boots and pick up a saw.
In addition to both of my grandfathers farming (tobacco, corn, cows, pigs) ….. my maternal grandfather and one of his brothers were carpenters – they built and repaired houses, my gf specialized in cabinetry…… my paternal grandfather was a timber cutter and he drug the logs out with the same mule team with which he plowed corn and tobacco fields. These men were certainly not “buff” – they were thin and angular.
Most so-called “buff” men wouldn’t last half a day with a real McCoy.
Nancy2 wrote:
You know, I think I remember someone when I was a kid saying Jesus would have been buff from doing carpentry. The thing is, real strength doesn’t always look like fancy gym muscles. (generally it looks better, but there are also genetic components here – some men are going to be tall and ropey and some men are going to be short and stocky…)
*fondly remembers marine boyfriend with lovely, functional muscles…*
dee wrote:
How did Rick Trotter get another chance to be in minister so he could ‘offend’ again? Who opened the door for him to come in, knowing he was a ‘wolf’ (in the biblical sense)?
And who are ‘they’ in this victim’s reference: “”They made us meet with him, with Rick Trotter. Sit down with him and his wife. That’s terrible. I couldn’t handle that at the time,” said the adult woman, who left the church almost immediately after this happened.”
what a tangled family web …… bunch a bad boyz, yeah
Velour wrote:
Beware of preachers who try to make Jesus look like one of the bros … who put more emphasis on His humanity, than His diety … who lower Him to their level. These folks don’t know the Lord, so you shouldn’t listen to anything they have to say.
Velour wrote:
Jesus wept.
Doesn’t Matt Chandler get it?
Nope. He doesn’t. And neither do his dudebros in the faith industry. It won’t even start to dawn on them until the gavel comes down hard and heavy with beaucoup bucks payouts and hoosegow time for perps AND those who attempt coverups instead of going to the cops from the get go.
Stan wrote:
I like how they blame it on the culture and don’t look inside. They need to look hard at their church because the patriarchy that they teach empowers domestic violence against women. It doesn’t take much to go from “I am your Lord and Master in a few things” to “I owe you completely and it’s not abuse when I do it to you.”
Own, not owe. Blaming it on spell check.
Question:
Chandler had a brain tumor and was treated for it, apparently successfully (thank God).
Did his ministerial behavior show the same ‘density’ before his illness and treatment as afterward?
Are there any remarkable differences BEFORE and AFTER that anyone has noticed????
you would think that if the Good Lord had helped you to overcome something that dreadful, your life would be changed for the better ….. but it was a BRAIN tumor and goodness knows all the effects of what they did to him that got rid of it (hopefully permanently)
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
Exactly. They (Chandler, Loritts, Piper, Grudem, Driscoll, Dever, Ware ……..) reduce women to a subhuman status in their writings and in their sermons. ……Lift men up, tear women down……. With that kind of “gospel”, it doesn’t take long for a husband to view a wife as animate property, while the wife spirals into oblivion.
Christiane wrote:
Irrelevant. The crucial question is ***was he able to maintain and exercise headship over his wife while he was ill***.
Muff Potter wrote:
And then they’ll probably play the persecution card.
Nancy2 wrote:
Chandler calls women members of TVC “our girls.”
Max wrote:
That is mighty condescending IMO! I am sure that is how he feels about women.
dee wrote:
I think this turn phrase belongs in HUG’s lexicon… 🙂
Donna D wrote:
American Religion is Big Business. Why work when you can have mega-church with all the trimmings?
Speaking of which, this reminds me of an incident from my past. While I was attending a Wesleyan Bible college, I met a fella in one of my classes that I just couldn’t figure out. Every time I asked him how he was he’d reply: “I don’t know how *I* am, but I’m doing fine in Christ Jesus.” Something about that answer never quite seemed right to me. Well, it just so happened that this fella had a program on the local Christian radio station. Then one day while my husband and I were out for a stroll downtown, we ran into this fella. He was pimping with his prostitutes and right in the middle of verbally abusing one of them. My husband and I were shocked and appalled. My husband asked him what in the world he was doing, pimping and claiming to be a Christian at the same time. A big smile came over his face and he said something to the effect that he could have the best of both worlds = making money pimping and conning the public with his preaching gig. Yep, quite a bit of American Religion is a Con Game.
mot wrote:
Chandler also says that he preaches to the men. So….. somebody tell him not to bother saving me a seat.
Velour wrote:
Thank you to the three people who have donated to the GoFundMe account for Shauna and her son Billy’s April expenses. There is currently $450 in the account, however GoFundMe will take out some fees.
Some more donations are needed and appreciated to help them pay their June rent ($700),
and other basic expenses (food, gasoline, phone, etc).
Thank you!
@ dee:
More details:
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/03/spaniers_battle_will_rage_on_g.html#incart_river_index_topics
of the many many sins of fellowship, a pew sitter can commit this one is quite vile.
“made the mistake of asking them for help and comfort.”
Which is not quite as evil as showing any type of grief for any reason what so ever for even a moment unless you are in leadership, then it’s fine and can go on for as long as you want. I still one other horrid sin is to ask for money for any reason such as a few bucks to help with a memorial for a family member. I made that mistake, won’t ever do that again.
Just found something out last night, which has had such a dramatic impact on my entire life. I am sort of a clutz, I trip, I am not really athletic though I tried very hard, I have trouble with phone numbers, maps, etc. Lately, it has included walking into things, tripping, etc. I was and am totally ashamed of this and have always considered it a moral, ethical, spiritual, and fill in the blank failing on my part. I don’t remember doing this on purpose but my experience in the faith has taught me we do everything on purpose, to get attention, garner sympathy, manipulate, deceive, be rebellious, continue to sin, lie, cause disruption, distortion, hate God, Hate Jesus, …… that list goes on for about three or four pages. I know I wrote them out back when I was in fellowship in my keep track of what a piece of trash I am notebook AKA “devotional/quiet time book”
Anyway, the doctor pointed out that my eyes don’t line up right and I am getting different levels of sight. It is subtle but it explains quite a bit of many of my learning disability issues. I always felt stupid and was often encouraged to feel stupid by people mentioning what are you stupid, are you retarded, an idiot, liar, manipulator, deceptive, want attention, feel sorry for yourself, whiner, and on down from there. Actually, all I ever wanted was to be extremely fast at responding to issues and to questions in fellowship usually within a second or two and to stay out of the way at the same time. It can’t be done but it is what is expected.
I guess I add this here is I don’t think these leaders get it with the manly men stuff or for example, the be married or U are a complete failure as a man/human being. Having been in the soulless crowd most of my life in the faith community it was hard to explain. I am nearing sixty now and I am still fighting for other people, homeless, the park I live in, my students, even churches at times I advocate for. I have to admit for a second when that doctor told me about this I felt a sense of some vindication, of course, the evangelical guilt tape began to play and by the time I got home I just figured I had it coming. Another gift from the faith community.
These people have no clue how much pain they cause, they really do not.
“I am sure that his thoughts are helpful. However, the Bible appears to indicate that a man’s life is to bear witness to his character … Loritts talks about love. He says that love doesn’t ignore but calls out and that love has hard conversations.”
The New Calvinist who’s who preach occasional truth, but seldom personalize their messages. It’s always someone else they are preaching about. The Church of the Living God needs to be having some hard conversations about the Calvinization of the American church; they are stealing our youth with reformed theology’s misrepresentation of God. What love is this?
mot wrote:
If you would like to hear more about Chandler’s views on “Calvinism and Sexual Complementarity”, check out John Piper’s interview with Chandler.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKEpVzHnUw0&t=20s
Get ready Southern Baptists! This is the new breed of pastors heading your way!
The JP Candler interview. Oh my goodness, these folks are really really full of themselves, truly. I mean Scientology comes to mind. Listen to the quick responses, I dont know what to do and the thing with the hands.
brian wrote:
Yep, there is no shortage of arrogance in New Calvinist ranks! Of course, when you believe that you have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel that the rest of Christendom has lost, you can feel big about yourself. (In the new reformer’s world, Calvinism = Gospel)
siteseer wrote:
Not only do I teach, but organizations pay me four figures to speak to them. I know speaking, in fact, running the mouth in front of a crowd is the only thing in the world that I do exceptionally well. If there are skillful speakers in the New Calvinist ranks, I have yet to see one.
That video interview. Painful to watch. Chandler preaches to The Men because that’s what scripture says he should do. And their Girls love it. It would be nice if he was specific about the passages that tell the preachers to preach to The Men.
The gospels are right on board with that memo. Jesus of course, didn’t preach to women, just to men. Disregard those women who traveled with him and The Men Disciples and even supported them. He paid no attention to them, just tolerated their presence and received their support.
There was that messy scene with the woman at the well, where he told her to go get her Man and Jesus preached to him and Her Man straightened out what she needed to know. It was a complete misunderstanding that Jesus preached to her, right there at the town well, and then she went and preached to everybody about him.
Try not to think about that unseemly incident with Mary and Martha. You know, that time that Mary, silly woman (no, make that Angry Girl, to fit Piper’s comment about ones he knew decades ago) who sat in the room listening to and learning from Jesus right along with the men, when Martha insisted that Jesus tell her to stop it. Since Jesus Preached To The Men, he immediately told Mary to get off her lazy patootie and get in the kitchen, so she could serve The Men and show herself to be good marriage material. Then she would have a husband to tell her what she needed to know and “Flourish”. No, he certainly didn’t tell worried Martha that Mary had chosen the better part and he wasn’t taking it away from her and she shouldn’t, either. No siree.
Pay no mind to the unfortunate scene at the empty tomb, when Mary M. was the first to see and hear the risen Savior, and the first to tell The Men the good news. No, ma’am, Jesus let her assume he was the gardener (silly Girl) and ordered her to get The Men and bring them back, so he could get his resurrection preaching started without wasting time on her, Just a Girl.
Yes, indeed, I can totally see why Mr. Chandler, O Wise Man that he is, doesn’t waste time preaching to His Girls. If Jesus didn’t waste any time on Girls, why should he?
Darlene wrote:
As a victim, I would also love to know the same thing! No one will say. Bryan Loritts has confirmed he took it to his house and doesn’t know what happened to it after that.
Tree wrote:
Going out on a limb here, but my guess is that the focus on men to the exclusion of women is based on money.
That is, since traditionally men were the breadwinners and wrote the big checks at church, the leadership’s theology patronized them.
Question: What about a woman of means? Do they bend their already twisted theology to go after her for her love gift$?
JYJames: Pursuing men because they are the breadwinners and write the checks…there may be something to that. A traditional view of who has money and who controls the money may figure into the mix with everything else that is rolled up in the focus on men. Many of the ones in the complimentarian/patriarchy camp, would rather a husband work two two or three jobs than have a wife employed outside the home. I just had one tell me last week, as he was grumbling about millennial parents who both take care of their children, that young children are to be cared for by mothers, who should not have “careers”. Dad should get a better job or get a second job. And mom should take care of the kids weekends and evenings, also, so dad can serve in the church, volunteering and leading.
Well, this dear man, whom I love, is in his late 60’s and that is exactly what he and his wife did. Although she was a nurse, he worked 60+ hours a week at two jobs and volunteered at church the rest of the time, and she “didn’t work”. I bit my tongue and didn’t mention that his sweet wife had mused to me, 25 years ago, that she really didn’t love her husband any more. I’ve assumed over the years that it was the demanding lifestyle that prompted her comment, just one of those temporary dry spells, because they have remained married.
But I digress. Yes, I think money and the assumption of who has it and who controls it is likely a factor in the focus on men.
@ Max:
That interview! With Piper and Chandler!
Speaks Chandler, this at about 5:38
“He wants everyone to come to repentance;
but He actively works against it”
I think Chandler misunderstands a very orthodox Christian teaching, this:
“We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis.” (written at the Council of Chalcedon, 451 A.D.)
Chandler misses the ‘without confusion …. division …. separation’ and paints God as a conflicted personage with conflicting wills
How could he get something so basic so wrong?
God does not ‘contradict’ Himself. Chandler’s teaching is not orthodox concerning ‘Who Christ Is’ or ‘The Characteristics of God’
In hearing just that portion of the interview, I think Chandler has fallen into an ancient heresy seeing God in dualistic terms, with two contrary wills …. hardly a theology compatible with orthodox teaching on the hypostatic union
” But in Piper’s theology, God’s alleged “will” that all be saved is merely an expression — this “will” (expression) is just words on a page.”
(Bruce A. Little)
it’s strange: they seem ‘confused’ in their theology, so they have created a ‘confused’ God who can’t make up His Mind because He has two contrary wills ….. the determinist ‘thought system’ comes full circle when their ‘god’ is as messed up as they are …. some theology, this, a god made in the image of a confused and confusing human thought system
Christiane wrote:
I wonder if this is because Matt Chandler sees himself as among God’s “Elect”, chosen before the beginning of time as the NeoCals advertise. Everyone else is going to the hot place.
Max wrote:
Matt Chandler says in that video in reference to what drew him to Reformed theology, that someone handed him J.I. Packer’s Knowing God. When he read it it acknowledged, “That’s a different God.” I have to agree with Chandler. The New Calvinists do have a different god.
Christiane wrote:
Yes, these guys love that. Instead of going against the real enemies of God (as per Ephesians 6), they “valiantly” do battle within the Body of Christ, attacking one another.
Piper famously debated some other preacher named Boyd, http://bit.ly/2nzbuO2. It is possible they were both teaching theology at the same University.
Anyway, they made a big deal, postering their divergent theologies before anyone who would listen – audience, an essential factor for these types. Maybe it was to sell books? Ego pump?
Still watching that Matt Chandler/John Piper video. Piper asks Chandler a question at one point in reference to the impact Reformed theology had on life:
“And it related how to your ability to lead people out of darkness into light?
What in the world? This is unmitigated arrogance.
@ Velour:
Good morning, Velour
well, Chandler seems as frail to me as Piper does, but then again, a lot of these neo-Cal males seem frail when you realize just how much they need for the ‘girls’ they rule over to give them homage.
I still never understood how the neo-Cals sorted out that THEY were ‘the chosen’, but if it makes them happy and if that is what they need in order to be peaceful, then I shouldn’t mind it EXCEPT that their smugness doesn’t work like that: they are aggressively militant in their take-overs of churches, and they can be quite abusive to the sheep. I’d say that doesn’t speak too well of their having been ‘chosen’ above others, no. Now, if they came with humility, with service, with healing in their hands and bearing the peace of Christ within them, we would see a different kind of fruit from these poor people who think themselves ‘chosen’ but look down on so many as beneath them…..
I don’t think their ‘We are the Elect’ rings true even in their own estimation, because they are trying to prove it in the wrong ways, in desperate ways, that bring harm to others. They don’t understand what they are doing, no.
Darlene wrote:
LOL.
Christiane wrote:
Spot on, Christiane.
Christiane wrote:
Yes, these guys love that. Instead of going against the real enemies of God (as per Ephesians 6), they “valiantly” do battle within the Body of Christ, attacking one another.
Piper famously debated some other preacher named Boyd. It is possible they were both doing theology at the same university.
They made a big deal, postering their divergent theologies, building an audience, an essential factor for these types. Maybe it was to sell books? Ego?
http://www.dennyburk.com/did-jesus-ever-experience-doubt/
Basically, Mr. Burk thinks doubt, and fear is sin and is part of our sin nature that needs to be repented of. Boy, I remember this, grief, need, basically any type of emotion outside of some apologetic is a vile filthy God hating rebellious sin we need to beg God for forgiveness. Just read the article one quote “In the Bible, doubt and fear are sins.” I don’t know but when Christ was on the cross begging God saying Why have you forsaken me? It seems like he doubted and was afraid. It is what we do with our doubt and fear and how God uses it through us to overcome. In one of his books, Mr. Burk says that even having inclinations of being SS attractions is sinful even if they are not acted on just having those “feelings”. Is it just me or can others see how this can drive a person crazy?
JYJames wrote:
my question is this:
what about the ‘audience’ they draw …. is it all really just ‘entertainment’? a ‘show’? What kind of person falls for the neo-Cal pitch, and why?
It’s not really ‘Southern Baptist’ in the original sense, is it, this neo-Cal business? Goodness, it isn’t even classical Calvinism, at least as it is practiced by my northern friends who are the overseers of Eastern Christian Children’s Retreat in Wyckoff NJ, where my son is a resident, a wonderful facility under the auspices of the Dutch Reformed Church. Those ‘reformed’ Christians are the real deal, with the kind of fruit that tells you they are faithful to Christ in humble ways, in serving ways.
The people who come looking to Chandler and Piper ….. they are the ones I wonder about. You would think that the first time they got hit with a ‘membership contract’, they would run for the hills.
It’s a mystery, poor souls.
@ brian:
Hi BRIAN,
Denny has got very important lately, and no longer takes ‘comments’. But he used to, and I was a regular commenter and he allowed many of my comments to stay. There was a time when he was not so important in his world that he spent time discussing things with commenters ‘irenically’, and I always appreciated that courtesy.
No, I don’t see ‘doubt’ as sin. And I don’t see having SS attraction as sin either. But then, I’m not evangelical. All I know is that we are loved by God. And, in time, we may come in our lives to see the truth of this, in the most extraordinary ways, but that’s another story. 🙂
Our Lord was kind and patient with St. Thomas who doubted ….. and we are, all of us, if we are honest, sometimes kin to the man who said, ‘Lord, I believe. Help Thou my unbelief.’
I have this feeling that all shall be well;
even though my heart aches for all the suffering and grief and unkindness people endure.
If we struggle with doubts in our faith, maybe it’s because we don’t understand all that suffering;
so I keep a crucifix close to remind me that God loved us far, far beyond all understanding.
Christiane wrote:
This is a really good question, Christiane.
On the 3.25.2017 post about SGM, Max wrote, and then I looked up “codependency” for a clue:
Max wrote:
Why folks follow and defend such “preachers” is beyond me … there must be a spell cast over them.
I found this:
Codependency.
“…a dysfunctional … relationship where one person relies on the other for meeting nearly all of their emotional, [spiritual], and self-esteem needs. It also describes a relationship that enables another person to maintain their irresponsible, addictive, or [incompetent leadership] underachieving behavior.” – Symptoms of Codependency by Lancer
On leadership and seeing from the inside out:
“The trouble wasn’t the charm but what the charm might mask: addictions, personality disorders, injuries, a deep disinterest in hard work.” Daryl Morey, GM of the Houston Rockets interviewing future players, as quoted in The Undoing Project by Michael Lewis.
The interviews, he said, were magic shows [kind of like church can be? – a magic show?] and he had to resist being charmed. “Your mind has to be in a constant state of defense against all this crap that is trying to mislead you.”
“We’re always trying to figure out what’s a trick and what’s real. Are we seeing a hologram? Is this an illusion?”
So, like in Moneyball, Morey uses real analysis of real data rather than charm or intuition or appearance or even the stories players tell, to figure it out. (“Everyone has a story,” he says.)
I like to think that the Bible supports real analysis of real data when discerning what is real in the church. The Bible has plumb lines.
Christiane wrote:
The following statement is not intended to be pro or con anybody’s religious or political beliefs. I am mentioning ‘change’ and ‘how things used to be’ and making a comparison for information purposes only.
As to your statement which is quoted above: actually, it somewhat is really southern baptist, if you specifically mean ‘the original sense’. It is not the Baptist faith that I grew up in, but it is much closer to what the original people had in mind, the founders. The Baptists have always been part calvinist and part non-calvinist in their theology-a mixture. So that, the mixture idea, is a long standing baptist way of thinking. The neo-cals have some stuff which looks to me to be a counter-reaction to some cultural and political things going on right now, but the sort of/ kind of/ more or less calvinist but we sure don’t baptize babies type of calvinism light mixture is thoroughly consistent with how baptists have done back and fort over time.
The baptists are not the only ones who look different now compared to let us say some 60 years ago. Look at it this way. When I showed up at RCIA after having prior pre-V II exposure to catholicism, I looked at post-V II stuff and was almost overwhelmed with the idea of ‘I don’t know what this is, but it is not catholicism, is it’? Almost your words exactly about the Baptists and the neo-cals. The answer is; yes it is. The Baptists are still Baptists and the Catholics are still Catholics, and the fact that things seem so different just has to be dealt with.
Tree wrote:
I think this is shortsighted, because I’ve seen a lot of marriages where the wife is really the one making decisions about where they go to church. It doesn’t matter if he makes more money if she decides where it goes!
brian wrote:
What drives me crazy about this is that there are a lot of verses about getting past fear and doubt and trusting god and I truly believe these are meant to help us when we fear and when we doubt. And people like Denny Burk have twisted them to where they are not helping at all, they are just piling on more fear – fear that you are sinning. They’ve missed the point entirely when they make these things sin.
okrapod wrote:
Yes, i think the appeal of this movement is not ultimately about calvinist theology at all. Except that someone has decided it is more ‘intellectual’.
@ Lea:
And calvinism for these guys is the ‘thing’ that we were talking about that they can sell, like authoritarianism and 9 marx and fundamentalism, the benedict option, the purpose driven life, etc…
You can’t sell ‘let’s just do what we’ve been doing’.
Wondering wrote:
I am so sorry that you were a victim of Rick Trotter, brother in law to Bryan Loritts. I cannot imagine what it would be like to realize that you were filmed in the privacy of a rest room. It was despicable act on his part and he deserve prison.
If you would ever be interested in telling your story, even anonymously, please let us know.
dee@thewartburgwatch.com
Wondering wrote:
He ‘doesn’t know what happened’????
These people are criminals, imo. They were hiding evidence.
Lea wrote:
Obstruction of justice.
Darlene wrote:
Didn’t Trotter take the videos with his phone? If so, how is there a tape? Unless he loaded onto a computer and burned discs ……., then there’s iCloud, and numerous other ways to hide data where no one else can access it.
Tree wrote:
Did you notice that he always referred to males as “men”, as in adults. And he always referred to females as “girls, as in never quite adults.
Max wrote:
Nail on head!
Christiane wrote:
Nail on head!
@ Christiane:
Of course he doesn’t understand. He couldn’t pass his seminary classes and relies on Docent for his sermon content.
http://www.tvcresources.net/resource-library/articles/thoughts-concerning-seminary
http://www.docentgroup.com
@ Darlene:
To be fair, realize that many Village attenders are there for the best worship entertainment that $21 million can buy, and otherwise they’d be at Gateway or Fellowship. Relatively, those places are darkness.
Nancy2 wrote:
I did notice that. I also noticed that there are those who reject the word ‘woman’ because it contains a reference to ‘man’ and ‘female’ which contains a reference to ‘male’ and of course those who reject the word ‘ladies’ because of cultural connotations. That pretty much just leaves words that start with ‘b’ or ‘d’ or ‘w’ or ‘c’ and their ilk. I really don’t know how to keep people happy on this one.
@ dee:
re: The Village Church —
“They did not know what they were doing and they obviously did not understand the Bible when it comes to pedophilia and child porn. This is simplistic Christianity and I am getting tired of the little equations the Calvinists apply to very complex situations.”
+++++++++++++++
this is simplistic common sense. decent people everywhere do not need the bible to tell them that one does not favor a pedophile and one who engages in child porn.
i’m consistently amazed at how (some) christians lose the ability to arouse common sense, especially those with power to lose.
Matt Chandler, Steve Hardin, and the assorted cast of characters must be utter morons. their common sense asset is a flaccid dead donger, which means the bible in their hands is a dangerous tool to screw up their priorities. Men and power come first.
Christiane wrote:
I think it may be the temptation to spiritual superiority that one sees in many groups. For people I’ve known who got caught up in abusive types of groups, the groups were always pitching that subtly or overtly: “We are the chosen ones. We are the ones who have got it right. Join us and you will be, too.” I think fear can be a driving force for followers as well: “If I don’t join and follow along, I will be cast out, wrong, etc. But as long as I follow along, I’m one of the chosen. And being chosen has its costs. It requires sacrifice. That’s why it feels so bad. That’s normal and spiritual.” Being able to interpret one’s inner discomfort as temptation or trial keeps one from reconsidering the actual cause. It is somewhat ironic since NeoCals teach that we have nothing to do with it, but the arrogance is there, so where does that come from if not from a sense of moral/spiritual superiority?
@ dee:
“It’s like they jump from *thing* to *thing.* Two years ago, Al Mohler said that young earth creationism was the cause of the moment. That didn’t fly because Tim Keller is a theistic evolutionist. Now it is racial reconciliation. Two year from now, it will be something new.”
++++++++++++++++
just like any franchise vying for market share. fads and trends.
McDonalds, but christian.
JYJames wrote:
In my experience, the concept of “woman of means” is hard for this type to wrap their minds around, so unless the wealth is obviously on display and can’t be overlooked, they won’t even consider that it might be there. God help you if they do figure it out though – silly woman must need a managawd to help out!
@ Nancy2:
“Guys like Shepherd, Driscoll, and TT need to put down their books, take off their Guccis, try on a pair of steel-toe Brogan boots and pick up a saw.”
++++++++++
or an orange vest and a trash bag.
or a bathroom janitor hat, and tongs.
elastigirl wrote:
Maybe they should try being guards at a women’s penitentiary.
elastigirl wrote:
Well, actually, not Christian at all . . . in my opinion
JYJames wrote:
If you’re referring to Greg Boyd, Piper isn’t the only big gun who has called in artillery on Boyd. Norman Geisler (arminian leaning and a Calvary Chapel favorite) allegedly demanded that Boyd be removed from the ETS (evangelical theological society) for his views on Open Theism.
Lea wrote:
“I KNOW NOTHINK! NOTHINK!”
— Sgt Schultz, Hogan’s Heroes
(Johann Banner, I’m getting so much mileage out of your most famous character tag line…)
Christiane wrote:
“RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
— Ralph Bakshi’s knockoff, Wizards
okrapod wrote:
I think context matters. Male/Female, Men/Women, Girls/Boys. Ladies/Gentlemen. People should be more or less consistent. When they talk about men and girls in the same conversation/context it stands out.
Or like the article I read the other day where some woman talked about how having children made her feel womanly, but she wanted to feel like a ‘girl’ to feel sexual? That stood out.
JYJames wrote:
All about the Benjamins, Baby.
Lea wrote:
“Girl” also used to be a slang term for prostitute, which could also factor into the mix.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ew!
GreekEpigraph wrote:
Was it Boiler Room where they told the salesman to only talk to the man but in much cruder terms? Maybe they’re thinking like that. I think they’re wrong about how much sway women have in many households, if you think about it, it’s possible this whole ‘men should be in charge’ thing is all marketing: make men in charge, make church for men, sell to men…less complicated.
Lea wrote:
“You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
— G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown Mysteries
And as a former IQ 160 kid genius whose grade-school nickname was “Mr Spock”, I can attest that having the genuine intellectual equipment also has its serious downside. (And some of the Intellectual Snobs I’ve run into… Woo! There’s a reason MENSA membership — especially when self-volunteered — is a BIG negative.)
Lea wrote:
Exactly. It’s using an adult term for one gender and a term for a child for the other gender that is at issue. It’s out of balance. It’s not a matter of poor word choice either–there really is only one adult gender in that particular view, so the word choice accurately reflects that.
Christiane wrote:
I vaguely remember a Poul Anderson short in a Sixties-vintage Analog (one of his Polesotehcnic League stories — “The Master Key”?) where a bombastic interstellar trading tycoon is trying to solve a mystery regarding First Contact with two similar primitive alien races who share a world. Though both are sentient/sapient, one has hardwired psychology which effectively limits them to being domestic animals of the other. The story ends with an observation that even among humans there are some whose personality is that of a domesticated animal.
And in Lloyd Biggle’s 1971 SF novel The World Menders (also read in used Analogs in my college days), the Big Reveal at the climax is very similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Menders
Abi Miah wrote:
Yes, exactly. The word choices people make matter. They tell you something about the way they think.
brian wrote:
At least Fred Phelps was up-front and direct.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well, I think in this case ‘intellectual’ is code for a group of people who have dismissed the warmth of human interaction and basic human decency (and all aspects of theology that emphasize that) in favor of a cold, supposedly rational theological perspective that is all about rules and words, not action. That isn’t the same as saying they are actually intelligent!
dee wrote:
Could share with us the names of some the African American men, who I assume are pastors, that you have in mind?
dee wrote:
I recently followed a link that Julie Anne retweeted from Ligonier Ministries — they were featuring an article by Mohler (an old one, I think, in which he shames people for delaying marriage) in TableTalk magazine. When I checked out Mohler’s bio in the sidebar, I noticed one of his books was entitled, “We Cannot Be Silent”.
When I saw this, I was curious. I even dared to think, “Could this be about the epidemic of sexual abuse in churches?” Clicking on the link, I was disappointed to discover that it was all about same-sex marriage and changing sexual standards in society. Based on the description, there’s not a word in there about molestation or actual crimes.
Granted this book came out in 2015, but I wonder if this is a harbinger of a new “thing” that all True Christians™ must rally around. Wasn’t it a year or two ago that The Gospel Corporation or the SBC had a conference on sexual sin — and it was all about LGBT issues?
And you’re right, they won’t make a big issue about sexual abuse of kids. They don’t dare.
Lea wrote:
Stretch marks and saggy boobs versus flat stomach and perky boobs?
Lea wrote:
Men Without Chests. They live.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
well, if a person doesn’t ‘choose’ or ‘will’ certain feelings, he or she cannot be said to be sinning ….. since sin is a freely voluntary act against God;
so I don’t understand Denny’s rationale here, no.
Nor is being ‘tempted’ a sin, as even Our Lord was tempted by satan.
Max wrote:
I truly feel sorry for the people that get “pastured” by this new breed of pastors.
Darlene wrote:
One resembling the Al’lah of X-Treme Islam – a personification of Absolute POWER, Omnipotent but NOT Benevolent.
@ dee:
Missed your response to me earlier. You can see for yourself in their annual report:
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/annual-report-2016/#giving-generosity
The Costs of Gospel-Centered Multiplication! Are you not blown away by this? They’re not talking about keeping the lights on, a woefully undersized parking lot, outreach obligations, etc., but MOAR branch campuses when there are already Watermark, 15 Acts29 churches, and tens more self-proclaimed “gospel-centered” churches in DFW.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
no, not benevolent, which is also a huge break from the Judaic concept of God’s most important characteristic: His ‘chesed’, which some have tried to translate as His ‘loving-kindness’
Christiane wrote:
That’s what you get when you emphasize God’s Omnipotent Sovereign POWER at the expense of His Chesed. Look to the Islamic cults in the news today for a type example of where that road goes.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
yes …. the phrase ‘a Holy God’ seems more to mean ‘a wrathful God’ in a world where the word ‘Holy’ has nothing to do with ‘Incarnation’
miot wrote:
https://i2.wp.com/nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/lamb-thoughts.jpg
Stan wrote:
Always in the part of town you’d expect Donald Trump or Paris Hilton to live in.
In the words of the prophet Pink Floyd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ
elastigirl wrote:
Indeed.
I was reading Tim Keller’s position paper on women, and how women are different from slaves and just about fell out. This is the ‘moderate’ complementarian here!
Moderate!!!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Correct! I do have tickets to see Roger Waters this summer. 🙂
Well not them, but in Southlake, Rex Tillerson, Glenn Beck, the Jonas Brothers, and Terry Bradshaw all live in the area.
miot wrote:
Once the old folks die off, the New Calvinists will have the SBC to themselves. They are waiting anxiously for that! But God …
Darlene wrote:
The New Calvinist God doesn’t love everybody like the real one does.
Christiane wrote:
Yep, but it’s not only Chandler. As Acts 29 President (and SBC pastor), he represents the core teaching of a multitude of New Calvinist preachers who have emerged during the last dozen years. They claim to be orthodox, preaching the true gospel – but it is not.
max wrote:
They all treat and talk about women as if we are service animals, with no souls.
Christiane wrote:
Listening to these guys preach is like following a termite in a yo-yo! To get God to fit into their twisted theology, they have to force Him to change His mind about some things! Why would anyone want to follow the Calvinist God? If a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways, what about a double-minded God?!
Tree wrote:
One has to worry about Chandler’s calling into the ministry when he testifies that John Piper’s sermon made him see the light!
Nancy2 wrote:
I have a quote from Keller’s position paper on women that is in customs, but he’s basically talking about how we are different from slaves (ie, our being ‘under authority’ never goes away) because its rooted in the way we were created, not just happenstance I guess like slavery.
Also he went on about how women who don’t like that interpretation are biased, and he’s biased too but somehow that doesn’t count. Probably because he’s a man.
Nancy2 wrote:
When enough women ensnared by New Calvinism finally see this, it may prove to be the Achilles heel of the reformed movement … when they rise up en masse and drag their sorry husbands/boyfriends out of the mess. Usurping illegitimate authority is OK.
Lea wrote:
Exactly like black Africans after the $lave Trade really got going.
Created that way by God.
Curse of Ham and all that — “Do You Deny SCRIPTURE??????”
(And when they evolved beyond Biblical Literalism, they swapped the Bible for The Origin of Species and Scientific Racism was born.)
max wrote:
You’d have a better chance with the fickle Old Gods of Olympus.
Which is what I’m more & more convinced happened with Islamic theology — they just put a Monotheism over the fickle whims of the gods, ending up with a New One God who acted just like the Old Gods.
Nancy2 wrote:
Don’t forget service animals “With Benefits”.
(nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean…)
max wrote:
oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
It’s interesting because they clearly realize:
1. They can’t do this anymore with race and
2. The parallels are there with sex and
3. They still want to do this with sex.
Ergo, we are ‘created by god to be his helpmeet’/headship/etc. Even if we are nobody’s helpmeet, cause single.
Took me a while to process the following comment overheard one day, but here it is:
When dealing with the sins of others, we ALL want the Calvinist God who has no mercy whatsoever on “them” as they cannot, in our personal judgement, be elect. So sic’em, God.
But in our own personal lives we all want to deal with the Catholic Jesus, Who never gives up on us His people, always is standing with His arms outstretched to cheer us to the finish line and embrace us in His sacrificial love. Even if He does make us scale mountains and walk through fire and suffer with Him. At least He knows what hurt is, feels ours, cries with us and walks through life with us.
Am I a syncretist? Who knows? Was Wesley? With his “third way?” I’m no longer SBC, attend and belong to a church in the Wesleyan tradition, love liturgy and the sacraments but am not into priestcraft.
Make of it what you will. I shun labels these days. And love Jesus.
Nancy2 wrote:
Yes, you’re right, Nancy2. Even I got tricked by the language those folks used, i.e. – the “tapes” were destroyed. In this day and age, videos taken with cell phones and other devices can be stored elsewhere and hidden. I’m not buying it one bit that the video footage has been “destroyed.”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Given the evidence that within christianity there are variant and incompatible ideas about God, one has to ask whether christianity did something similar.
okrapod wrote:
I’d suggest if the ideas about God in various movements are incompatible, since Christianity is about the worship of that God, all the movements can’t legitimately be Christian.
Velour wrote:
Never underestimate the Righteous Arrogance of God’s Elect.
elastigirl wrote:
“Show Me SCRIPTURE!!!!!”
— Raul Rees, Calvary Chapel West Covina, standard comeback to any attempt to reason with him
elastigirl wrote:
Ray Kroc would really shine in today’s Neo-Cal or Megachurch whirl.
Lea wrote:
Which is why a lot of people keep an air horn by the phone for boiler room telemarketers.
Lea wrote:
Good comments, Brian and Lea. The rigid views of these Neo-Calvinists are what cause people in that environment to stuff their feelings – their true selves – and put on some plastic, phony facade. This is why I think their idea of Biblical counseling (Nouthetic counseling) – is ineffective. They never get to the root of why a person is struggling, doubting, worrying, angry, fearful, depressed, grieving, etc., because before they can get there – a warning sign is posted that says: SIN! They can go no further. They are blocked and prevented from understanding themselves. So much of a person’s natural emotions and struggles are labeled as SIN, and virtually their solution is to apply a Bible verse to make it all better.
Darlene wrote:
Many of the videos were on Trotter’s cell phone of which Fellowship took possession. Bryan Loritts at the time said directly (in a private conversation) that the attorney for the church advised them to throw the evidence (on the the phone) in the Mississippi River. Other church elders confirmed this.
Trotter also had a church-issued & owned computer in his home on which he kept his wicked videos of unknowing women (and children) filmed in restrooms, up skirts around town, etc. The church did not bother to collect this computer upon finding out what Loritt’s brother-in-law was doing; instead, Trotter was given time to have this computer “serviced” (read: hard drive wiped) before child protective services might have requested it.
Loritts recently contacted a former member of the church who had posted her concerns about the videos and the cover-up (she had good reason to believe her daughters might be on them); he was upset that she had posted on Facebook about the declining morality of the church and he saw the direct implications for him. Bryan (incorrectly) assumed this woman was too sweet and demure to discern truth and call him out for his sketchy excuses, immorality and lack of ethical leadership. Loritts claimed that the videos were never watched, but that he could “feel her pain” as his baby sister was on those videos–the Godly woman astutely asked how long Bryan had watched the videos to find that his sister was on them! He had no answer. Why couldn’t he tell this woman whether her daughters had been on the video?!? He knew!
The woman went on to ask him what became of the videos. He claimed he didn’t know. (?!?!?) This is TOTALLY IMPLAUSIBLE for a church leader in this situation, much less someone who was supposedly so concerned that his family member was on said tapes.
Bryan Loritts has lied repeatedly about this subject and is way too sleazy to be in the ministry!!! The rest of that motley crew at Fellowship Memphis aren’t morally or intellectually fit to lead their own shadows!
(incidentally, Trotter, when found to be doing the same thing at the new church in Memphis that his family and Fellowship had passed him to for employment, was apparently broadcasting the videos he was taking online–hence, these videos will never be destroyed and are being passed around the Internet pervert community in perpetuity)
@ Lea:
i think i shall faht in his general direction.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
he better be wearing sandals and greeting his fellow pastors with a holy kiss. that last part he’s all too happy to contextualize, of course. along with any of the other ‘biblicals’ that are inconvenient.
AbuseCrusher wrote:
That attorney should be disbarred.
The elders should be arrested and brought up on obstruction of justice charges.
@ Lea:
One guy told me that slavery is illegal has been done away with, while marriage still exists. Ergo, “Woman, submit!”
@ JYJames:
A local church I attended hired a sexual predator.(Last name Stratos) Who left 2 churches with HIM., having affairs at these 2 churches with over 20+? women. He left smeaked away, leaving that mess behind, & “reinvented” himself. Went to a different spiritual school out west. Then does a part time job of “filling in” for other Pastor’s!(unreal evil hiding within that congregation) with ZERO parents/husbands ect. notified this sexual predator is now up “McPreaching” behind that churches pulpit? Someone Googled His name. Then the whole perverted past came forward. What was sickening was: the leadership does not even know how to GOOGLE?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I find it striking that American bred Fundagelicalism and Wahhabi Islam have nearly identical trajectories insofar as their respective holy books (Bible and Qur’an) are thought of in their religions (over the last 40-45 years).
Here in the States I would argue that it was Papa Chuck (with encouragement from Hal Lindsey and others) who really got the bible ball* rolling with momentum in the late 60s and early 70s.
*the Bible as a systematic linear belief system of heavy and indisputable bullet points all connected with strings and ramp-ways very much akin to a Rube Goldberg machine.
Nancy2 wrote:
We could fix that “marriage still exists” problem. If that is all that is holding him back from treating his wife like he would want to be treated instead of like a slave . . . just sayin.
Nancy2 wrote:
Oh, that makes it alright then.
Hey, wait. If we got rid of marriage, we would be golden, then?
Muff Potter wrote:
Remember the joke about “non-denominational — Baptist with the labels painted over”?
Well, during my time in-country in the Seventies, it was “Calvary Chapel with the labels painted over”. Calvary Chapel absolutely DOMINATED Christian AM radio; all those independent “Christian Fellowships” and “non-denom church plants” of the period were exact clones of Calvary Chapel. There was literally No Salvation Outside of Calvary Chapel.
This was also the heyday of The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay, Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist, and Christians For Nuclear War — “It’s Prophesied! It’s Prophesied! Prophecy is being Fulfilled even as we speak!!!!! We might not have a 1978!!!!! Or even a 1977!!!!!” (It is now 2017.)
Add Jack Chick tracts as SCRIPTURE(TM) and you had a Perfect Storm situation.
memama wrote:
Google is WORLDLY, not SPIRITUAL.
Pneumatic Gnostics, so Spiritual(TM) they have ceased to exist in the physical cosmos.
May as well have joined Bo & Peep behind Hale-Bopp.
AbuseCrusher wrote:
My next question would have been did he watch them with one hand inside his pants?
@ AbuseCrusher:
Would you be willing to help us write up an addendum to the Rick Trotter story? Please contact is at dee@thewartburgwatch.com
Typical Neo-Calvinists are at it again. They say:
No sexual temptations of any kind for any members! Even owning DVDs with bikini scenes aren’t allowed! Spread rumors about that person all over the church. Discipline those sinful false-Christians and excommunicate them!
But if your leaders or leader’s friends are sexual predators, literally raping, filming and watching little children, be sure to defend these sexual predators! Covering it all up! No one is allowed to call the police! Stop the gossips! Give a great reference for that sexual predator for his next high paying Christian job. If any member dares to call the police, discipline and excommunicate these false-Christians!
God’s name continue to get shamed by them.