The New Mrs Houghton on Instagram. The Old Mr Houghton
TWW believes that anyone who leads worship in a church should have a thorough background check. If, as in the case of Tim Heinz and High Point Church, it involves child sex abuse, we believe the entire membership should be notified. Folks, this is not a simple case of sin. Pedophilia is a psychological disorder that does not *go away* with counseling. A pedophile is wired differently and desires to have sex with children. This urge will need to be worked on and subjugated for the rest of his life.
Elevation Church and Steven Furtick
There is another issue that we believe needs to be looked at. What if a worship leader or any other leader is living an immoral lifestyle and/or is a deadbeat dad? Is he allowed, while in the midst of that, to lead music while the problems are still ongoing? No, I am not talking about Tullian Tchividjian even though the shoe fits. We are discussing Steven Furtick's apparent lack of good judgment when it comes to his heroes. We have already talked about his one of *heroes of the faith,* Norm Vigue, who served time in prison for child pornography charges.
I thought about other members of Elevation Church. They have not molested any children, they do not participate in viewing internet child sex abuse, they have not murdered anyone and they haven't embezzled any funds from their companies. Yet, they are not hugged on stage and they are not considered heroes. They are not given a table after the church service so that they can sign autographs. Why is that?
Code Orange Revival 2016
Every few years, Furtick brings in a bunch of speakers in order to produce an *extraordinary* work of God at Elevation Church. They describe it like this.
What’s a revival, and what are you expecting will come of all this? Ministry Today defines revival as, “Extraordinary, beyond what we would consider the normal work of God.” This past weekend, Pastor Steven preached on “The Anatomy of a Move of God.” He preached from Ezekiel 37 and Acts 2 about the five things the bible says revival could look like here Charlotte. You should watch the sermon to get the full picture. Better yet, join us. We are expecting God to move in a mighty way.
In 2016, besides Israel Houghton leading worship, there were the following speakers. Steven Furtick's church appears to tip towards Bible light.
Joyce Meyer, Christine Caine, Craig Groeschel, Louie Giglio, Carl Lentz, Dharius Daniels, John Gray, Levi Lusko, and Steven Furtick.
Israel Houghton: Philanderer and Elevation role model.
Who is Houghton? He is a Grammy winner Christian singer songwriter.
From Wikipedia
Israel Houghton (pronounced, hoh’-tin; born May 19, 1971) is an American Christian music singer, songwriter, producer and worship leader. Houghton is usually credited as Israel & New Breed.
Houghton divorced his first wife in March 2016.
Houghton released a statement in Feb 2016 regarding his divorce from his wife of 20 years. They have three children together.
"It is with a collective heavy heart that we announce that after over 20 years of marriage and a long separation, Meleasa and I are officially divorced. Several years ago I failed and sinned in my marriage," he revealed. "Though this is new to many, it is not new to us as we have been working through this for over 5 years. Although we tried, the challenges in our relationship have proven too much to overcome.
He also allegedly produced two children with another woman during his first marriage and needed to be sued to support them.
He allegedly had two other children from an affair during the marriage. He confessed to cheating on his wife during the marriage. The Texas Attorney General has reportedly sued him for child support. Furtick not only thinks a child pornography abuser is a hero, apparently he thinks that deadbeat and immoral dads are just fine as leaders.
The Texas State Attorney General’s Child Support Division has sued the gospel singer and is asking him to pay for the two children he fathered.
He’s on the hook for back and current child support for two boys, Kingston, age 4 and Khristian, age 2, as well as medical expenses and health insurance.
Immediately after the divorce, long-time *friend,* Adrienne Bailon, entered the picture. Both denied any affair during Houghton's marriage.
Shortly after announcing his divorce, Israel Houghton got a new girlfriend, Adrienne Bailon, a singer and actress, and went on a Mexican holiday with her according to People Magazine. Both denied dating during his marriage although they were *friends.*
While on their first vacation as a couple in March, the couple found themselves in the center of a media whirlwind.
“We were in Mexico and she got the call that the paparazzi had photos of us together,” says Houghton. “It turned into a day and a half of us deleting comments and blocking people on Instagram. There were multiple times I turned to her and said, ‘You can walk away if this isn’t worth it to you.’ ”
“It was a troubling 24 hours,” Bailon adds of headlines saying Houghton was still married. “There was so much misunderstanding. But I never questioned my feelings for him.”
They got engaged after a few short months of dating.
A few months later Bailon and Houghton got engaged In Paris and Adrienne gets quite a rock.(See pic at top of post.) This is a guy who had to be pursued to pay support to his kids by an affair. According to People Magazine in Adrienne Bailon Dishes on Her 'Magical' Engagement to Israel Houghton: 'He Is Everything I Wanted and More'
“It honestly was just magical. My parents being there was so special to me. They actually were celebrating 20 years of marriage. I thought originally that we were just celebrating them and then obviously when the surprise happened, I was super excited and super happy. I can’t wait,” Bailon continued.
Here is the happy couple enjoying a Greek tour after their engagement in Paris seemingly having enough money to celebrate but not to pay for support of his out of wedlock kids. Houghton praised God for his new squeeze stating "God is good." God must have been bad when He had Israel marry his first wife and produce kids with her and his other honey.
Houghton stepped down from his position as music leader at Joel Osteen's church in March but was reinstated after 6 months.
"We can confirm that Israel is on indefinite leave, but it is important to clarify that we still consider Israel to be a part of the Lakewood family and that his employment has not been terminated," the church said
They got married in November 2016.
According to People Magazine Adrienne Bailon Is Married — See the Photo from the Stunning Paris Wedding
“I’m so glad we chose such an intimate group of who have shared in our journey and know our hearts and that I honestly feel comfortable crying in front of,” says Bailon. “I didn’t want to invite people I felt I had to put on a performance for. I wanted every moment to be genuine and really special and that’s what it is going to be.”
The happy couple via Instagram
Steven Furtick bromances Israel Houghton in 2016.
During Code Orange Revival 2016, Steven Furtick, acting bizarre (or is it normal for him?), sat in Houghton's lap and sang a duet with him. I am having trouble embedding the video so click on this link to watch the actual video on Furtick's Facebook page.
What does this say to spouses and children?
Can you imagine what this says to children of deadbeat dads? What about to moms who are cheated on? What about to the broken families, hurting while dad travels, spends lots of money and marries Sexy Baby? What does it say to the kids and moms who receive no support and scrape to get by while Dad buys the new honey a rock and traipses about Europe while *not having sex.*
This is just one more piece of evidence that Steven Furtick doesn't really get abused and forgotten children, poorly treated wives and men on the prowl for new honeys. And that is a really scary thing.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
first
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I have posted another update on the open discussion thread. Thank you all so much.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-11/#comment-297861
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This is very serious and its wrong in my opinion allegedly if he did this. I will admit I chuckled at “bromances” that really does say it all. Why cant people just follow through with commitments. You know I made a few promises to students, one was to help them actually graduate Hight School, it took me ten years to keep that one for two of my students. Some promises have taken me decades to fully keep.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Um, um, um. What would happen if a woman behaved the way these men do?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
His statement on his divorce reads so similarly to Tullian’s.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Seek to enter by the narrow gate. For the way is broad, with thousands of followers and likes, that leads to destruction.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
siteseer wrote:
matter of time before this phrase from sacred Scripture will be used by some famous ‘leader’ to justify living in a wealthy gated community
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I am glad you are covering this story, but I think that far more blame belongs to Lakewood than to Furtick. Furtick featured Israel to keep the “Reboot Fallen Pastors Industry” moving along and so he could get some selfies with Adrienne and talk about the Kardashians. Furtick was being Furtick, narcissistic, idolatrous and selfish.
.
Joel Osteen was far worse. He’s not only Israel’s employer, he is also his pastor. And what was Joel’s response to this abominable, disqualifying behavior? For all the years it was going on, Joel did nothing. He kept Israel on platform week after week, and I heard that top Lakewood execs did know, for years, about the affairs and the illegitimate children. Israel was undergoing some form of “counseling” at Lakewood during this time, but was not relieved of his ministry title or position. Joel only made Israel step down for a 6 month “time out” after Israel refused to continue hiding his adulterous relationship with Adrienne.
.
For those not familiar with Adrienne, she is one of the very last people on earth you would want your daughter emulating as a Christian role model and pastor’s wife. She used to “date” Rob Kardashian and is a true Kardashian in every cheap and slutty way you would expect inside that subculture. I would link to her nude photos but no one here should want that on their computers. In addition to Adrienne showing us her bumhole, she attended the red carpet Escape to Total Rewards Event in NYC wearing a completely see-through dress. I am not talking about a silky, lacy or mesh fabric outfit, but rather a skin tight, pantyhose type shear fabric with no underwear whatsoever.
.
Folks, if your flock can describe, in specific detail, what your genitalia looks like because you put it on full display at a red carpet event, you should not be pretending that you are a godly person and are living the life of a pastor’s wife. Should people argue that perhaps she has since repented and is now a chaste modest, Proverbs 31 type role model, there is currently no evidence to support this.
.
The reason Israel got busted and Lakewood finally had to act was because of her and Israel hanging all over each other in Mexico while Israel was still married. Here’s how Adrienne dressed as Israel’s concubine when she knew they were being photographed together so she was at her most modest and demonstrating her best behavior. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3534526/Adrienne-Bailon-new-boyfriend-Israel-Houghton-united-walk-arm-arm-following-cheating-rumours.html
.
The bottom line is….well,the “bottom line”. People in Houston want to jump up and down and rock out to Israel and New Breed singing “I am Not Forgotten” and take selfies next to the scantily clad, gigantic, gravity defying breasts of Adrienne. Joel’s flock are getting what they are clamoring for. In the end it is the sheep who are celebrating and enabling this travesty. They are also the ones making Joel Osteen a multimillionaire as they are the ones buying, reading and living Joel’s famous book “Your Best Life Now.”
.
And that’s what they are getting. Their best lives now, where you can pretend to be following Jesus while idolizing adulterers and skanks and partying to New Breed’s rockin’ awesome tunes. My main prayer is that some of the sheep will finally figure out that if you are living “your best life now” that’s kind of prophetic as to where you will be spending eternity.
.
All parties involved in supporting this behavior sicken my spirit. I know that is a harsh statement, but this is so blasphemous and insulting to the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior. It is demonic and needs to be treated as such. Why would people stay with “the church’ and try to raise their children as Christians if this is what is passing as Christianity these days? They are better off having the kids hang out at nightclubs and pool halls. There is far less deception and hypocrisy there. Ironically if they dress up like Lakewood Pastor Wife Adrienne to go nightclubbing, they could get arrested for indecent exposure.
.
Israel is living extravagantly with Adrienne as they party across Europe while rejecting and neglecting his own children whom he abandoned and allowed to be raised as illegitimate, all so he could have his best and most exciting life now. Israel is a highly prolific singer, song writer and producer with two gold albums to his name. He receives royalties from all over the globe. He has the means to pay to support his four children. Failing to do so is abusive and doesn’t just cause financial damage. That kind of neglect causes stress and feelings of rejection along with permanent psychological and emotional damage. Is this how any pastor should behave?
.
People who continue to buy Israel’s music; churches that pay to play Israel’s or New Breed’s music; those who attend Lakewood and Elevation and donate money to them or buy products related to New Breed, Joel Osteen or Steven Furtick; are all supporting this horrible behavior and will have to answer for it one day. May God have mercy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The recent election in the US attracted some coverage here. At one point, some students at a religious organisation, of I forget exactly what nature, were asked by a BBC laddie about the now-President-elect’s history of scornful attitudes (and behaviour) towards women. One of the students talked about how they “believe in the power of forgiveness”.
So, what is the “power” of forgiveness? What does it do, for whom?
AWWBA, this from Luke 19:
So far, so familiar – we’ve seen all this before. Rich scumbag sucks up to popular preacher and they cosy up together. ker-CHING!!!.
Only, AWWBA, this story continues.
Salvation didn’t just come to that house, but to a lot of other houses who were financially under its influence. God’s forgiveness kicks butt. The counterfeit doesn’t.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I have a lot of friends that put Christian music on a pedestal, and it’s always made me uncomfortable. I’ve never liked the idea of a Christian celebrity, and I know enough about the Christian music scene to know that the record companies are much more concerned with making money than having the right message. I do believe there are some really sincere Christian music artists, but fame seems to have a way of corrupting people.
Many people I know act like whether you listen to the local Christian radio station proves how good of a Christian you are. I dislike pop, and I especially dislike stations that play the same 5 songs over and over because they are popular, and that’s my experience with the local Christian stations. Plus, many of them are more talk than other stations, but all the talk is fluff. I download much of my music, and honestly, even though I’m a musician, I prefer silence much of the time.
And I don’t think I consider Furtick a Christian anymore. The stuff he says publically is so odd and out of the realm of Christianity that he’s running a different religion up there.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I have been following the stories about Israel Houghton since they broke, but was not aware of the children he had out of wedlock. It’s all so very heartbreaking. I hate the idea of Christian celebrity; however, if you find yourself on such a pedestal, you should have great fear of God to be an example for others and not a fool. It’s especially sad for me since I love Israel Houghton’s music and always wanted to see him in concert, but no more!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
GMFS
I’ve a comment (from 3:23 EST, but 8:23 GMT) delayed in customs that must be from God because it’s PackedWithScripture™.
IHTIH
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Though, TBH, when discerning Wartburgers really want to read something that’s packed with scripture, they’ll probably stick with a bible.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ishy, if you’ve never done so, google Elevation church and baptisms for the story about how they used people planted in the *audience* to jumpstart others coming forward to be baptized. My personal favorite is the infamous children’s coloring page showing Furtick preaching, and at the bottom it said We are united under the Visionary. 😀
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
I remember seeing a ‘coloring book’ page for the children of his ‘church’ ….. it was a picture of Furtick himself ….. the caption was ‘Elevation Church is built on the vision God gave Pastor Steven. We will protect our unity in supporting his vision.’
I guess either God has revealed Himself anew or this is just one more creepy cult, as if our country needed more crazy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
I thank God that I’ve never liked Christian music stations or music my entire Christian life. I found it cloying and fake.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy2 wrote:
Obviously that wouldn’t be ok. But you know, when you ‘fail’ in your marriage (is that considered a man fail or a man win?) repeatedly over an extended period of time, that’s just dandy.
Btw, so sorry to hear about your family member. I hope he recovers.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
This is my experience listening to it in my mom’s car. They just yammer on and on! I prefer music, not talking. (I don’t particularly like most of the music either and it all seems to be the same style as ‘contemporary’ worship, which I also don’t love. I would rather listen to a station of old country singers singing hymns (and I have one of those on pandora).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
I do find some Christian music uplifting. But like a poster said above, I do get tired of hearing the same five songs in a row after a while. I want to say, ‘Yes, I get the point. Now will you PLEASE play something else!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
As they’d put it in my grade-school days:
“That looks FAGGY(TM)!”
(But maybe that’s Pastor’s new VISION for Elevators… Dee, can you embed that coloring book illo here?)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
As always with WWW, the issue is the kids…. how can that guy go to all those nice places and not support his own kids??? If we does not think they are his, you can now have DNA testing.. so that is not an excuse!
Repentance and forgiveness involves volitional actions to follow…. this guys lack of supporting his own kids, while spending lavishly on European trips clearly disqualifies him from church leadership, PERIOD..
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The Furtic Revival reminds me of the prophets of Baal onm Mt. Carmel trying to call down fire.
1 Kings 18:26-27
Then they took the ox which was given them and they prepared it and called on the name of Baal from morning until noon saying, “O Baal, answer us.” But there was no voice and no one answered. And they leaped about the altar which they made. It came about at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, “Call out with a loud voice, for he is a god; either he is occupied or gone aside, or is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and needs to be awakened.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’m not a fan of the Christian music industry at all. I don’t listen to Christian radio (though I do own some Christian music). The motto for the station here in Atlanta (last I heard) was “safe for the whole family”, which just makes me think the music is watered down. I don’t want music that is “safe”. Dealing with the spiritual is one of the most important aspects of our lives- that shouldn’t be “safe”.
And there is so much bad/questionable theology in the songs; it’s reasonable. It’s not like the artists are there because they are learned Bible teachers, but it does mean we need discernment. We can’t just let anything in.
Of course, the hypocrisy is real, since I’ve recorded my own fair share of Christian music (and I’m not a Bible scholar!), but I’ve never really felt comfortable in the scene.
For anyone interested, here is the album I recorded (with a friend of mine doing female vocals- she’s a much better singer than I am!) after my divorce, which really tells the story of how I was abandoned by the church and the process of renewing my faith. It was a healing project to do, and it’s always been my hope that others who have been hurt by the church/divorce might find it helpful.
http://noisetrade.com/steadyon/through-the-darkness
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
A couple of thoughts:
1. I wondered what had happened to the Disney Cheetah girls, other than Raven-Symone, that is…now I know.
2. Furtick seems to go out of his way to “elevate” leaders who are Biblically disqualified, or at least Biblically suspect. While I do not pretend to understand his motivation, I wonder if it is a misguided, yet nigh heretical, attempt to illustrate God’s grace. Yet Furtick has a misunderstanding of what grace is – it is not the sweeping of sin under a rug and pretending it never existed; rather, it is full embrace of God’s holiness and mankind’s sinfulness, and the contrition that is the natural response of the redeemed (which is joyful, to be sure).
Furtick is the logical result of Christianity’s reduction into slogans, jingles, and bumper-stickers.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’ve tried to verify the allegation that Houghton had to be sued for child support. I’m not finding reliable info.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
NJ wrote:
The word is SHILLS.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/tww2/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/20140219-083659.jpg
LONG LIVE COMRADE CHAIRMAN!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
CORBAN.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The name of the sex offender at Highpoint is Tim Heinz, not Jim West.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Tina wrote:
But do you also find it positive?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Burwell wrote:
Like, “God is good (all the time)” and the definition of justification – “Just As If I’d never sinned”
As NT Wright said concerning the popular worship chorus line “I’ll never know how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross” (and by default all other oversimple reductions):
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Burwell wrote:
Don’t forget “It’s all Under the Blood.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
can it be that these folks have elevated music to ‘worship’ …. I wonder, in the sanctuaries where no audience participation in speaking is permitted, is the listening to Christian-themed music always thought of as a way of actively praying???
I love Christian music also, and there are times when it rises to a form of prayer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXrCD5KNLxQ
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
I am so sorry. I wrote this way too late last night. It is corrected.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I was raised on christian music all my life. Love it, but not the new modern stuff. There is a saying that calls the new songs 7/11 songs. They sing the same 7 words 11 times. Can’t stand it. Don’t like “christian rappers”. Love the old hymns of the church. My dad used to sing in church. I loved listening to him. There are some modern christian songs out that I love. But on the other a lot I don’t. If you are going to be in the pulpit leading music, in my opinion, you need to have your act together. A music leader at a church we went to briefly, was arrested in a hotel in my town for solicitation this past year. He was relieved of his duties asap from the church. More churches should take this stance. No tolerance. My all time favorite hymn is “How Great Thou Art”. If you know this song, sing it in your heart along with me – Then sings my soul, my savior God to thee, How Great Thou Art….
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeff S wrote:
I just moved from Atlanta to Athens, so that’s exactly the station I was talking about. And I literally have had friends who have criticized my faith because I refused to listen to it, even though I said I downloaded Christian music as an alternative.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Harley:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUUm_I6-s3s
so beautiful, this hymn
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
NJ wrote:
Yeah, I’ve seen quite a few things about Elevation and the fakery they employ, and that’s one of them. Plus, I’ve seen Furtick speak on multiple occasions, and the stuff he says is empty and devoid of any real Christian theology. He’s all about money and popularity, and his giant house and employment of other fake Christians is evident of that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
It is that for some, though I think many have mistaken the emotional response they get for faith.
I used to have a roommate that would blast worship music at 7am every morning so loud that the neighbors complained, but she said she couldn’t “worship” without blaring it. Add that to the fact that there were usually 2 or 3 people in the house still sleeping, and asking her to turn it down earned a flat “No” and a slammed, locked door every time. I think music can be an idol it in its own right, that pretends to be a way of faith but is really an emotional crutch that has nothing to do with trusting God.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The advocates of biblical church discipline for the sake of a healthy church in Furtick’s denomination are surely in the case.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
This is a nice piece, Christiane.
It has substance compared to the drivel on ‘Christian’ radio, which I have never liked.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
She couldn’t use head phones? What a horrible witness and a self-centered person.
I bought headphones with a 30′ cord just so I could do my early morning stretching exercises and not disturb anyone else.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
Yes, and encouraging!
I did Christian Radio for years, and while there is a lot of good music, a ton of nonsense floats in because people clamor for it. That’s not a knock on people in general, but I will say that it’s the same principle that keeps Kardashians and Reality TV afloat. “Give the people what they want” is how media works, and for better or for worse it’s how Christian Media works too.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
There’s a lot of things she could have done besides that, but she never did, despite multiple people, including non-Christian neighbors, asking her to. Nobody could get through to her.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bottom-line for me: this doesn’t look or act like the Church of the Living God, the Bride of Christ, the assembly of the upright, a pillar and ground of the Truth, a holy priesthood. Perhaps, I’m just an old fuddy-duddy Christian, a dinosaur trapped in another eon of time, an irrelevant old guy in the midst of the culturally-relevant, a nostalgic ole cuss who longs for church reverence which will never be again … but, I’m having tremendous problems with a steady stream of carnal celebrity Christians being exposed in the blogosphere for all the world to see! Is it too much to ask those who take a stage to lead in worship to keep their pants on, to stop running around with hoochies?! Is Brother Houghton really that good at playing and singing a tune for Jesus or could a more faithful man be assigned that task? It appears that he disqualified himself from that privilege long ago. The American church is a mess – God forgive us for offering strange fire before you.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
I think you are right about some people using it as a crutch. But if you think about it, we all need crutches sometime, when we fall and are weakened. I suppose music is many things for many people. What I know is that every day, in my life, there will be music, even if I am only remembering a far off melody from a time long, long ago.
” 7When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
I had a roommate that used to practice singing at top volume when we were trying to watch movies. (and another who had an alarm at top volume that never seemed to wake her up but woke her other two roommates up every time!)
It’s just selfishness.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
David wrote:
Ha! Glad someone got that 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Harley wrote:
Christiane wrote:
Indeed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tDWP5wVCWo
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
bonnie knox wrote:
According to news sources, the case was non-suited last week, i.e., dropped by the state. That does not mean Houghton is off the hook. What I suspect happened is that Houghton paid the back child support and is now signed up for wage garnishment.
You’ll notice we’ve not heard a word about child support for the children from his marriage. That’s because, in Texas, in order to get a divorce with dependent children, you have to show tbe kids are being supported. And Texas has had, since the 1980s, a state constitutional amendment allowing for paycheck garnishment to pay child support. Basically, a court order goes to the employer of the owing parent and the money is taken out of the parent’s check. Back in the day, the county used to collect and issue the child support payments, but I haven’t lived in Texas for two decades, so have no idea how it’s done today. The whole purpose of the state getting involved was to hold deadbeat parents accountable and to get children off welfare.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’d always thought that verse referred to the government, not church leaders. Does that make me an Erastian?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
The ‘Sanctus’ is taken from the Book of Isaiah, this:
” 3And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.” 4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out”
The ‘Sanctus’ also shows up in the beautiful Eastern Orthodox ‘Trisagion’, the ‘Thrice Holy’:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHi-1taeqeo
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Sometimes we do, but if we’re making life difficult for those around us with our crutches, and refuse to even dialogue about it or consider how that crutch is affecting others, then it’s not a crutch anymore, but an obstacle.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ ishy:
The hope is that the crutch will be temporary, until we are strengthened again. I do know what you mean, though. For some people, the crutch becomes something of an ‘excuse’ or something to hide behind
and sometimes, a ‘crutch’ can turn into something destructive: a dependency on pain meds, or on drugs, and the ‘help’ then becomes a millstone which pulls a person downward
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’ve definitely seen Christian music used as a replacement for genuine connection to the Christian community and real spiritual growth.
Like anything, it has its place, and some people use it wrongly. My biggest concern is how it’s used mostly without any discernment. There is a wide scale of quality, both in terms of lyrics/theology and artistic value, and blindly consuming can be a lot more problematic than with pop equivalents (which, most people know to take with a grain of salt in the ‘truth’ category).
Again, I say this as someone who has passionately written Christian music 😀
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
And another thing … calling something a “revival” doesn’t make it so. Revivals are a genuine move of God. They cannot be scheduled in advance on a calendar. They cannot be organized by men. You can’t make revival happen; only God can. The creator of the universe must be peering down from Heaven and wondering what has happened to Christianity in America – in times past, it was filled with pure and holy pursuits; now it is so far from Him.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeff S wrote:
This is my biggest concern about Christians in general. I see very few people even trying to have discernment in their lives. They blindly follow celebrity leaders, books, and other people in their lives without really struggling with issues for themselves.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I feel badly for this guy’s kids. I hope the pressure and attention will cause Houghton to keep up his payments, and maybe even spend more time with them.
And I agree with the sentiments on “Christian” radio. I’ve often wondered if I am a Christian, since I find “Christian” radio and television completely useless.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Velour:
Totally agree!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
GSD wrote:
maybe it’s not you who isn’t ‘Christian’ ….. I’ve seen some of the stuff on telly and I don’t recognize it as meaningful, no
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
NJ wrote:
For those interested in the fake “spontaneous baptisms” this is one of the more thorough articles http://www.pajamapages.com/how-steven-furtick-engineered-a-spontaneous-miracle/ The story was big enough to be carried by the major religious and secular media outlets.
Furtick has exported his falsely induced spontaneous baptism hysteria all over the globe. He taught and promoted it to the pastors who attend his Code Orange Events. Gateway adopted this method and uses it to this day. Getting baptized should be a profound and well thought out decision where the person getting baptized understands the serious and sacred nature of what is going to occur.
.
Many churches require the completion of classes first so that those being baptized better understand the commitment they are making. Having fake plants run down the aisle like this is the Price is Right waving their arms to create a group think reaction is manipulative, to say the least. Slapping on color coded bracelets so that the camera crews only film the beautiful people or the folks with the most dramatic stories, cheapens the salvation experience of those who don’t look good in a wet t-shirt or merely want salvation without a story of having been a drug dealer or crime lord. The message is “your salvation isn’t as important”.
.
These churches mainly care about the metrics and being able to report high salvation numbers to their giving units (and other churches to promote “salvation number envy”) at the end of each year. These same megas pay professional comedians and celebrities, like the Duck Dynasty clan, to “preach” on the pulpits, then count hands raised at the end of what is a comedy concert as salvations.
The not-so spontaneous baptisms, where contestants are given free swag bags with free clothes and goodies to entice them to get dunked, resemble a carnival style dunking booth more than the most life changing sacred and holy transformation a person can undergo. When this satire story about Elevation installing a waterslide to make the baptisms more exciting appeared http://babylonbee.com/news/elevation-church-debuts-water-slide-baptismal/ many people who only saw the picture and headline on Twitter thought this was real – because at Elevation that would be believable. Sadly, churches all over the US and abroad are choosing to emulate this.
As for the coloring book, here is a link http://apprising.org/2014/02/19/indoctrinating-children-into-the-cult-of-steven-furtick/ Even worse is this 2.5 min video where pre-bulked up Furtick takes indoctrinating children into cultic behavior to a ho’ nutha level. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va8d_DwQ514
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeff S wrote:
While the same may be true for other groups, I’ve noticed a common model for planting New Calvinist churches in my area:
(1) set up shop in a store front, old warehouse, school gym, etc. in an uppity neighborhood
(2) invest church planting funds in the best sound and light equipment that you can get your hands on; erect a stage to strut on
(3) the first, and most important, staff member MUST be a cool “praise & worship” guy … the band is more important than the preacher to draw a crowd
(4) set the cool worship guy loose to find an equally cool praise & worship team, with loud whiny guitars, drums, and hoochie-coochie singers in tight jeans (it matters not if any in the team have a “background”; they must be talented)
(5) open a coffee shop in the foyer
(6) get on stage, do church … it’s important to be macho and cool in dress and talk
(7) control the congregation by coercing them to sign a membership covenant
(8) corral the members into small group meetings so you can keep an eye on them
(9) shun and/or excommunicate dissenters
(10) ignore watchmen in the blogosphere which blow the trumpet to warn and correct
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ GSD:
YUP!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
If you surround yourself with bigger scoundrels bigger than youishy wrote:
Christians? Says who? A Christian is someone who loves Jesus and worships Him, not men. A Christian is someone who loves the truth and hates fraudulence and phony garbage, 17,000 square foot houses for pastors so-called, coverups, victim abuse, self-glorification. A Christian is one who’s marked with love, not lust, who struggles against their sins and when they fall has at least a shred of repentance, who would want no part of being put on a stage and held up as a role model and given a fat salary when they’ve just destroyed the hearts of their children by trading the wife of their youth in on a shiny newer model with loads of plastic surgery, the type who lives to show her surgically-enhanced cleavage on Instagram.
I call bull, total and absolute bull. Don’t talk to me about your Christianity, Mr. Houghton. Bull. Go read James.
“For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Law Prof wrote:
I believe many of them are true Christians, with saving faith, but who never got out of baby Christian stage. I believe many churches intentionally keep their members in baby Christian stage so they will blindly follow, donate, and obey.
They are baby Christians, baby ducklings, who are following wolves.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
GSD wrote:
Any attempt at creative arts in the Christianese Bubble becomes Sturgeon’s Law on Steroids cheap propaganda. This has been commented on many times in many blogs.
Most of my exposure to Christianese music was a few years each side of 1980. Larry Norman (when he was competing with mainstream groups, not other CCMers), Steve Taylor (before “I Blew Up the Clinic Real Good” ended his CCM career), and Don Francisco (who specialized in taking incidents from the Bible and turning them into powerful story ballads). The others (and Christianese radio/TV) — Meh at best.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
Like these same churches sneer at Catholic/Mainstream laity: “Pay, Pray, and OBEY”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Law Prof wrote:
BTW, we are talking about two different types of people here. People who follow and people who lead. Just because the people who lead do all the things you mentioned doesn’t mean the people that follow do the same things.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Two examples of the best of Don Francisco’s story ballads:
“Got to Tell Somebody” from the POV of one Jairus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VknKAoxDiI
“He’s Alive” from the POV of one Simon Cephas Bar-Jonah:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO-7gehGYII
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There is a lot of good stuff out there, but it would never get played on a Christian radio station. I tend to like female hard rockers, along with rock folk. Women in mainstream Christian music have to be much like comps want women to be – sweet and soft and without much spiritual challenge.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Burwell wrote:
Alternatively, it might be that he’s treating them the way he wants to be treated if he ever gets caught in the same position. I’m not saying that he’s cheated on his wife or done anything illegal. I’m just wondering if he’s making a public display that sin is not that bad. So if HE sins, it’s not that bad.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I was not familiar with Sturgeon’s Law. So I looked it up. Brilliant.
sturgeon’s law. “Ninety percent of everything is crap”. Derived from a quote by science fiction author Theodore Sturgeon, who once said, “Sure, 90% of science fiction is crud. That’s because 90% of everything is crud.”
I remember those early pioneers of Christian music. There was something edgy and counter-cultural about them. Didn’t Francisco do a sarcastic song about an Xtian theme park called Bibleland, which was oddly prophetic about Ham’s Ark Park? They weren’t really “safe for the whole family.”
There is a drive by the Evangelical Industrial Complex to make everything safe, to avoid offending anyone, and it kills art. All that’s left is :crud.” Maybe it’s why all the mass-market Xtian art, movies, music, books and study Bibles seem so… Plastic. “Christian” becomes synonymous with bland, because bland sells. And maybe it’s why someone who can sing “really good” and get backsides in the seats can be a deadbeat dad running around the world with questionable women. Accountability would cost money.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
One of the reasons I’ve never aspired to get into the business. I write what I write, and I think there is definitely some of it that just wouldn’t fly on Christian radio (especially the song “I Never Knew” which is basically my emotional response to the church abandoning me after my divorce):
Chorus:
I never knew I could hurt like that
I never thought you’d let me down
I never believed I could reach for you
And you’d just stand and watch me drown
I never knew
Those aren’t exactly Christian radio feel good lyrics 😀
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
bonnie knox wrote:
Legal paperwork starting this process was provably filed in Harris County seeking to establish paternity which is generally the first step taken prior to determining state mandated child support. The Christian Post covered this story http://www.christianpost.com/news/israel-houghtons-respond-child-support-lawsuit-rumors-170993/
In Texas, the custodial parent typically files this paperwork to lay the groundwork to establish formal child support payments that can then be enforced by the state. If an acceptable private agreement for child support is reached prior to the court date, the action can be vacated. Often the initial papers are filed to get the supporting parent to come to the table faster and with a better offer. This is especially true when public figures are involved.
Five days ago, the Latina Times claimed to have an exclusive with Israel’s long term mistress, De Vawn Moreno, and Israel’s lawyers. The mistress stated “‘the case was halted because the facts weren’t straight from the start’ though she declined to elaborate.”
What is known is that if the case had proceeded “The state wanted Houghton (to) come up with his tax returns, checking and savings accounts statements, 401K info, proof of health insurance coverage and income history so that the court could figure out how much he possibly owed.”
The salaries of the highest paid megapastors are one of the most highly guarded secrets in America. We know that Israel’s boss, Joel Osteen, makes millions a year. If Israel had to submit this information it would legally become a public record and that could have been very embarrassing for Lakewood Church. Miraculously, after filing the initial court action, when it became apparent that this sensitive data might come out, the mistress suddenly halted her legal action and says that everything is fine now.
The article further states that “Houghton’s lawyer exclusively told the site that the dad of six was already financially supporting his sons, and had never actually been served with the suit.” However, Houghton’s attorneys had previously stated that the reason Houghton had not been served was because he had been out of town on an extended praise and worship tour, not because the papers weren’t trying to be served.
Israel’s lawyers confirmed to the Latina Times that Israel has SIX children?
With his wife Meleasa, Israel has three children: Mariah, Israel II and Milan Lily. With his long-term mistress De Vawn Moreno he has two children: Kingston age 4, and Khristian age 2. So who is the SIXTH child, and who is that child’s baby mama? It’s not like celebrity lawyers to get such an important number wrong. Are they subtly preparing the public for the next baby mama story to drop?
I am very relieved that the children are being looked after financially. For their sake I wish that this action had not been publicly filed. Perhaps the threat of revealing Israel’s net worth is what it took for Moreno to receive what she felt was a fair settlement.
http://www.latintimes.com/israel-houghton-paternity-suit-texas-attorney-general-drops-child-support-case-over-406523
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
I believe the same as you, I think many of these people do know Jesus, though of course no one can convince me based upon fruits that some of them aren’t just followers of flash who no more know Jesus than the average agnostic (who is perhaps closer to Jesus). It’s the leaders who double down on their sin and lead the baby Christians into worshiping them rather than Jesus for whom I feel absolute contempt and about whom one should think “Call yourself a Christian? Prove it by kindness, by doing something truly Christ-like rather than phony and fake Christ-like.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
Surround yourself with people who do worse things than you and you’ll always look better by comparison. But at the end of the day, I doubt Mr. Furtick has thought about it that deeply, doubt he’s capable of thinking things through deeply, just reacting and acting on impulse to build his empire and feed lusts. I think Mr. Furtick thinks only of what will pump attendance and if he thought he could get away with it, he’d hire Bill Cosby to do a little stand up routine on Sundays to boost attendance and giving.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Perfect analysis! They do this because it works. It alters people’s perceptions and chemically increases member’s receptiveness to suggestions. That’s the big reason that Joel Osteen must keep Israel in place.
At Gateway Church, just ONE of their soundboards costs $185,000! Multiply that by 6 campuses plus 2 plants. They spend millions upon millions a year just on the worship “experience” (the new code word for religious services).
This past weekend Sr Pastor Robert Morris actually stated that his sermons are merely “icing on the cake” and that the true purpose of attending church is the singing and the waving the hands part. God did not design church so that pastors could feed the flock the Word of God, they were there to worship and feel good.
Of course, Robert then went on to say “you can never separate worship and giving. I challenge you, find it in the scripture. When people worship, they gave. And they gave an offering and they gave sacrificially. And if you would like to go to a new level in your worship, you go to a new level in your giving.” Cha-ching!
He then doubled down on this. He said that the Wise Men brought 36 months worth of expenses for their journey to see the new King. They had already spent 9 months worth of gold when they encountered Jesus. One of the Wise Men upon seeing Jesus said “Open the treasury. I’m sure the servant probably said, ‘but sir, we have to keep some to get back.’ This, this, just my mind, what I think he said, ‘SHUT UP, go get the gold! Shut up. Get it all, Get it all!’ I think that’s the way we should worship.”
Then Morris goes on to say that AFTER giving Jesus 27 months worth of expenses in gold, “This is how much your life will be changed. So listen very carefully to what I’m about to tell you. Before they worshipped, before they entered Jesus’ presence, they had to go to other people to find out what the Bible said. But after they entered His presence, God spoke directly to them. One of the most amazing things I’ve ever seen in scripture. If you’re not a worshipper, you will always have to say to somebody, (gestures to his open bible) Now what does this mean? What does this mean? But once you get in the habit of entering God’s presence on a regular basis, God will speak directly to you.”
Worship music creates an atmosphere where endorphins are released. Churches like Gateway play the manipulative background music whenever they are trying to compel members to do what they want. Now Morris is taking this to a whole new level, teaching that preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ is merely “icing on the cake” and that if you worship extravagantly in your singing, arm waving and GIVING of wealth and emptying your treasury (bank accounts), you will no longer need to be taught the holy scriptures because you no longer need them. Why? Because God will give you direct revelations now. Who needs that pesky Bible anymore.
Could any readers provide examples for Robert’s challenge that in the Bible, no one ever worshipped without giving monetarily? What about the poor? What about when David was a shepherd and had nothing to give but his worship and praise? I would appreciate any help on this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
The church I was involved with that went NAR believed that music was the new way way people were coming to faith in Christ- they actually started teaching that people were becoming Christians just by hearing Christian music, without hearing or needing to understand the gospel message. They were supporting young musicians as missionaries, sincere kids but with little experience or theological understanding.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LT wrote:
Yes! This is the purpose of most of the worship music and worship time in the megachurches. The mind-numbing music is played to the point where people can be manipulated into thinking and believing most anything.
So, with that in mind, I am not convinced the music played in megachurches is worship or has anything to do with Christianity. Not when the purpose is to manipulate people.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
When Mary the mother of Jesus, sang the magnifcat, she wasn’t tithing. Neither was Elizabeth. There are so many instances in Psalms where David and others gave their bodies to God as worship. David danced before the Lord. He played his harp, he sang, he wrote Psalms. I don’t ever remember him tithing first or it being brought out in the Psalms about this. So many times when I play on my keyboard the old Hymns of the church, I am worshiping God. I am not tithing to any place or anything. I am simply singing and praying. When I listen to my favorite hymns on-line, I’m doing the same thing. Robert Morris is so wrong on this issue. To me, Morris is a modern day Pharisee. All about the money. All about “see me, see how much I give, I must be important to God”. Spare me from the likes.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
siteseer wrote:
Huh. I always grew up hearing it described as praise and worship, but how does that work if you don’t know who you’re worshiping? And reading LT’s gateway description reminded me of how repetitive and thin the worship music actually was the last time I was there. How you would learn anything from that, I have no idea.
I was just reading an article at patheos about how we’re ‘doing sunday school wrong’ because sunday school is about teaching the word, and not ‘how to live it in your day to day life’ or something. Which annoys me because that is ALL pastors seem to ever talk about in so many churches, is the day to day application. I really don’t like that kind of preaching, or rather a little is ok but before you know it you’ve got someone spending 1 hour talking about their kids and their golf game and telling goofy stories and quoting maybe one bible verse. Is that what they want for sunday school too?
One thing I love about my church is that they have actual meaty sunday school and I have so missed that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jan wrote:
At Gateway, it seems like the music is the only excuse you would have for convincing people that they need to go to a physical building, because the stupid service is on tv.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy2 wrote:
You know what would happen.
In some of these groups women can be brought before the elders for not getting their dishes done in a timely manner.
And dishes not rinsed to the degree that a husband desires is looked upon as the sin of not being submissive enough.
The pervasion of justice is staggering.
Part of the reason things are so out of kilter is that they won’t let women in leadership to balance out all that uncheck testosterone.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ drstevej:
Great comment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LT wrote:
I noticed the article used the word “shills”.
Having
fake plantsshills run down the aisle like this is the Price is Right waving their arms to create a group think reaction is manipulative, to say the least.The Price is Right or Let’s Make a Deal?
(And the regular Elevators are the ones getting Zonked…)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
And why should those who listen to pious (or not so pious) glop not feel superior? They are making a daily sacrifice by drowning the voices of reason and conscience in the sticky stuff. [sarcasm off]
It was, I think, CS Lewis who said that even holy shoddy is still shoddy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
GSD wrote:
Did a little YouTube search — wasn’t Don Francisco, but Terry Talbot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo8jBqr3aLs
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
GSD wrote:
I understand the original used a stronger word than “crud”.
And someone I knew in junior college came up with the Rosenberg Corollary to Sturgeon’s Law:
“90% of everything is crud, BUT OH THAT 10%!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeff S wrote:
I can totally relate. I’ve been there, too.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ LT:
Hey GwInsida! Two thumbs up for the whole of your comment. You are dead on. Satan has a false church going for close to 2,000 years now. I think that master devil is trying to see how far he can stretch the “Church” thing and still get someone to believe that Jesus is for such an ungodly charade. Lust for fame, fortune and the rich, partying lifestyle is not what Jesus died for. Christianity was never designed to be glitzy, glamorous, carnal, erotic, luxurious, self-absorbed and focused only on the now.
Only a pure narcissist would ignore his own children because he thinks there is nothing in that for him, while he throws money around on the most self-absorbed lifestyle jet-setting around the world. The lemmings supporting people like this are more than mere victims, they are true enablers participating in the sins of others. There must be repentance, which means we must have our consciences awakened so they function again as they should. We need a renewal movement of people who call all of this idolatry and sin, which is what it is. Oh, to truly value Jesus again for who He is and what He has done and to shatter our idolatrous 21st century icons! Let such a move of God’s Spirit come upon our nation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ bonnie knox:
http://www.bet.com/celebrities/news/2016/12/09/israel-houghton-child-support.html
The Latin Times and The Christian Post also has information about this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Burwell wrote:
That would apply equally to Tullian Tchividjian.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
We go to a mega church (one of the largest in the nation) with a big band and all of that. I don’t question the motives of the musicians, or even the people who put them on stage. I believe they have an earnest desire to see God worshiped and respond to him (I know the roommate of one of the worship leaders). And to help others do so as well. I don’t believe they are trying to manipulate people into accepting an emotional message.
All of that being said, it’s my least favorite part of the service. And this is coming from someone for whom this style is very natural. I enjoy contemporary worship music, and have even been a paid worship leader. But I don’t connect with the “big” worship environment; it feels less participatory for me. I don’t believe that is the design, nor is the experience universal. My wife seems to find it more participatory than she did the smaller, more intimate church we were at before.
Our pastor recently said that “boyfriend Jesus” is a false God, saying that the feeling that “God really showed up today” may just be “the room was full and the band was good”. I appreciate his accuracy, though I can’t help but feel that the preceding worship music worked counter to his point.
Being at a mega church has certainly been an internal wrestling match for me, but it’s been a good tension. I’m learning to find God, and the good in others, in places where I’m uncomfortable. And I know there are those here who would object to the church and our being at it, but through much prayer and discussion with my wife, we are convinced that, for now, this is where we need to be.
But it isn’t perfect 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I sure hope Jim West is not a sex offender. He was a secret service agent on Wild, Wild West. 🙂
Far as I’m aware, he was a good guy on that show, fighting villains.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
There have been several stories in the news in years past of churches whose bells are way too loud, that keep their neighbors awake, and the churches refuse to be considerate and turn the volume down or off.
(Some of the churches have digitally created bell sounds, not actual bells that are being rung)
IMO, it’s wrong for a church to not be considerate about this stuff. They are inconveniencing those who live in the houses around them. Jesus said to do unto others – which I would assume to mean that you, in a church, would keep your sound levels at a normal level.
When the Noisy Neighbor is a Church
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/realestate/when-the-noisy-neighbor-is-a-church.html?_r=0
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeff S wrote:
How to Write a Worship Song (In 5 Minutes or Less)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhYuA0Cz8ls
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
I see your YouTube and raise you one South Park:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvi4F3A7_yI
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeff S wrote:
No where is perfect. I think you pick the things that are most important to you at that time and go with it.
The benefit of a mega, like a big school, is that there are so many people you will hopefully be able to find some people or group or activities that fit you. Maybe some would describe this as too ‘social’ but I am not opposed to that.
I’m not saying I would go to Furtick’s church for that reason! But if you find an otherwise decent church, I would certainly not reject it for being large.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
I too suspect that’s another reason why some preachers and lay persons do this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
There is definitely some kind of divide going on in some churches.
Previously on this blog, I’ve linked to worship team guidelines published by some churches, and they are very restrictive and sexist.
Such rules lists for attire for women are teen feet long, and severely mandate what women cannot wear, but the men get like two lines in total.
Not that I am advocating for women to dress as hoochie-mamas on a church stage, but the typical gender comp church reaction, which is to nit-pick and insanely regulate ladies over their bodies, fashions, and sexuality, ticks me off.
I have seen some truly awful fashion guidelines for women pumped out by these churches. One went so far as to tell women to wear shirts with sleeves down to their elbows, and so on.
Women are once, under that sort of thing, being held responsible for male sexual sin and male sexual desire, rather than men being taught to practice responsibility and self-control.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Word of Life Christian Church in Chadwick’s, NY was like that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Lucas_Leonard
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That’s it! Thanks HUG. I totally forgot the part where Pharoah got busted for smoking weed! Again, not something you would hear these days on the radio.
And from what LT reports, it sounds as if the attention has already encouraged Mr. H to keep up with his child payments. That’s a good thing. [A vasectomy might also be a good thing.]
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Just like Talibanistan & Daesh’s Global Caliphate.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LT wrote:
I don’t mean to offend any church musicians on this blog, but honestly, I don’t like music in church. It’s not for me.
I don’t like to listen to it, I don’t like to stand-up and sing along, either.
I used to sometimes time my entrance to one Baptist church to the ten after mark, because most Baptist churches normally schedule the first 10 minutes for singing.
When I tune into watch church services on TV, I will ignore the first ten minutes to avoid the music numbers, because most of them follow the formula of doing music during the first 5 – 10 minutes.
My preference (if I even go to church) is to listen to a sermon delivered in a calm fashion.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
GSD wrote:
Yeah. Back when songs like that could have a little fun instead of sticking to the Formula/Party Line.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
I have mixed feelings about this. To a degree, I’m okay with pastors trying to make the Bible applicable to our daily lives.
But you are quite right it can turn very irrelevant and annoying when pastors veer off into telling -what is to them- amusing anecdotes about their kids and the latest cute thing their kid did, or whatever.
I usually don’t find their “humor” very funny but flat or stupid and wish they would just leave it out. Not that I’m against all humor in a sermon, if the preacher can inject some humor in a decent way.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Yes I had read the articles you linked to. The Latin (not Latina) Times referenced the Bossip article and did not seem to have any original source material. The Christian Post article quotes Houghton’s reps as saying the Bossip article had the facts wrong and that the suit was not about child support. Bossip seemed more sensational than reliable.
As far as the “six kids” comments, I wouldn’t assume the attorneys said “six” since that could very well be a mistake made by Bossip or the Latin Times. Who knows?
Of course, the Latin Times quotes the boys’ mother as saying the children had always been well taken care of. And if that is an accurate quote, it doesn’t make it sound as if she had not been getting child support. In addition, the Christian Post says that Bossip had to amend their Oct. article to say that Houghton’s attorneys said Houghton had been supporting the children since they were born.
@ LT:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
The church in the article is just terrible. I don’t see how churches could justify to themselves blaring music for periods of time and calling it a “witness”, which is what I’m sure they did.
I can hear church bells from my new house, but they play at noon every day and play the Cambridge Chimes (Big Ben song), which is 8 notes. Then on Sundays, several of the churches ring bells at 11 for the service, but also just lasts a few seconds. One church also rang the bells during a tornado warning, as I found out a couple weeks ago. But I can hardly fault them if they do that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LT wrote:
I feel as though I need to go shower or soak my brain in some bleach after reading that.
I think Paul wrote somewhere in the New Testament (someone wrote) that stuff that some self professing believers do is stuff that even unbelievers would not and would be disgusted by.
I see a lot of that sort of thing going on in and among professing believers today. It’s sad and very warped.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
That is just that one church. In the past several years, I’ve read about a few others who are guilty of blaring music or bells, too.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
In fairness, women’s clothing choices are more complicated than men’s even in the work force and there are more ways to go wrong. I was talking to a friend the other day about her female employee clothing choices at work and some of the stuff is just. ugh.
church complicates this with their own weird rules too, of course.
Simplest for everyone to wear robes!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lea:
I see a lot of rules for women’s dress in workplaces and churches to be unduly limiting for women.
Churches in particular seem very afraid of women’s bodies and sexuality. They apparently want women to dress in fuddy-duddy, baggy, dowdy ensembles.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
But see that’s exactly the problem. Men only have so many outfit choice styles and most of them are not super revealing. Women have a really wide variety. Like, should you really be wearing cold shoulder tops to your job at the bank?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy2 wrote:
Pile of rocks to a chorus of “PRAISE THE LOOOOORD!”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
That’s not just a pastor thing. I’ve run into it several times in various fandoms — the guy who can’t help but tell & show everybody how amusing and witty he is. And is only amusing and witty to himself; while everybody else is heading for the exits, he’s congratulating himself on being so Clever.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“We are expecting God to move in a mighty way.”
What does this even mean? I sojourned in Evangelical circles for around 3 decades. Looking back I recall all sorts of lingo that was spoken without even questioning what it actually means. This is one of those phrases that goes unquestioned. If the person says “God is moving” or some such thing, no one is to question it. It is assumed that such a thing is true. But what does it even really mean? And where does the expression even come from? I recall in Genesis where the writer says “the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” But how this would have any correlation to God moving within a church service is beyond me. Anyone got any ideas?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
the man Israel is supposed to be a ‘revival leader’, but what is being ‘revived’???
you know, there are many people who are not Christians who do the right thing simply because it’s the right thing;
and then along comes this person who breaks all the rules and is held up as someone who is able to ‘revive’ people . . . . ?????
I don’t get it.
“How shall we sing the song of the Lord in a strange land?”
How indeed.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
ION:
Oh – wait.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darlene wrote:
It means absolutely nothing! How do you even define God “moving”? Is he usually motionless or what? My hunch, it means we’re all going to pretend together that something really important is happening spiritually, even though there is no evidence of anything out of the ordinary.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy2 wrote:
Actually, there are quite a few women in Evangelicalism that behave badly. Ever hear of Paula White for starters?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darlene wrote:
Buzzword Bingo with a side of “WE So Spiritual – Don’t be Left Behind”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jan wrote:
African tribes discovered this centuries ago. Such music has been known to induce a hypnotic spell on listeners, releasing a supernatural force which is not holy. Yep, there are some strange things going on in the American church. I’m not sure these folks know who they are worshiping.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darlene wrote:
To add, in the Emergent camp of Evangelicalism, both men and women can equally behave badly. It’s in the Calvinist and IFB sector of Evangelicalism that there is a double-standard when it comes to men and women.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
I work for an evil too big to fail bank. I do not wear “cold-shoulder” tops–because the building is FREEZING. But there are other women in the building who do. However, in order to get into the building, you have to go through three badged entrances. So it’s not public-facing. So people wear a lot of stuff that wouldn’t work at a branch.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Which time in the past was that the case? I honestly have a hard time naming one. It’s kind of like the people who say make America great again. What time do they want to go back to and what made it so great?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ bonnie knox:
I hope he has been supporting his children non stop, but that does not mean he should be leading worship. He was having an affair and children with the mistress. And he may have a sixth child. He is disqualified from leading anything.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
Had she never heard of headphones?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Amen Christiane. As I grow older, I feel like a stranger in the American church. As a Christian, I know that I am a citizen of another world; just a pilgrim passing through this one … but, yet, I have to live in this land for a while longer. I try my best to fit, but the church has more counterfeit than genuine – it was not always so during my Christian journey. Sad days, indeed.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I think though that before the advent of the Internet, it was easier for counterfeit leaders not to get caught. Most of them never did. It was the same way with the printing press (the abuses people were protesting against were not new, but the printing press made people aware of them for the first time).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Tina wrote:
I stopped listening to Christian stations long ago. Although I must admit that every so often I will allow myself to be entertained just for the heck of it, because I’m bored or curious while driving.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Ditto! I question the whole “revival” schtick. Just like the term “a move of God” I really question revivalist terminology. I attended enough of those “revivals” back in the day where dynamic preaching was upheld as some unique gift that God dispensed to a few evangelists. In hindsight, it was just another form of Evangelical Entertainment accompanied by emotional testimonies and “Just As I Am” sung over and over to tug at the heartstrings so folks would walk down the aisle. Do I sound cynical? Well, I am when it comes to a large swath of American Evangelicalism.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Burwell wrote:
And then we have this little ditty that went viral a few years ago. “Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chXECFpGwu8
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darlene wrote:
I’ve attended many of those meetings in my 60+ year Christian journey. I discerned them to be a mixture of the genuine and the counterfeit … but Praise God for the genuine!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
David was restored, Peter was restored, and Paul was restored….Why not Israel Houghton?
Israel has repented of his sin and is now living in the light of God’s love. Pastor Steven does not judge and does not focus on the past- he is like Jesus in that he tells people to “go and sin no more”.
The “questionable” issue is this Blog and the Pharisee’s that support it
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Harley wrote:
“And when I think, that God His Son not sparing,
Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in;
Then on the cross, my burden gladly bearing,
He bled and died to take away my sin.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill Rogers wrote:
He has no business working at a church and in being in any kind of leadership.
He is a poor witness and a poor testimony. His life is in shambles and he has failed to uphold his responsibilities.
He responsibility was to his children, and his ex-wife, not to some ‘new honey’.
What a disgrace.
Where are the real men in Christendom?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bill Rogers:
1 Timothy 5:8 is why.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bill Rogers:
The church must have leaders who are above reproach; the precious Gospel of Christ is too important to trust it to those who aren’t. A Christian leader who has surrendered his call to pursue the flesh, wasted his reputation and tarnished that of the church he represented, and destroyed trust among his followers has lost the ability to lead by example. Should we forgive the truly repentant? Certainly! Should we restore them to fellowship? Absolutely! But not to leadership.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Beautiful! The first time I walked into an Orthodox church and heard the music, I was overwhelmed with a sense of another world, a heavenly realm that came to earth.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darlene wrote:
Yes. Beautiful.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darlene wrote:
I’m with you on that. And don’t forget “have thine own way” for 40 minutes while they think of every harangue they can to force you to come forward and be counted. Yes, the church has always been full of gimmicks.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill Rogers wrote:
How do you know this, Bill?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
Exactly. And with attendance and giving way down this year Robert Morris has been pushing the music and personal attendance as hard as he can. That sermon I referenced above is the last one from a 13 week series called “Living in His Presence”. Five of those weeks were guest speakers, but for the ones that Morris spoke at, every one of those sermons was the same thing – – you MUST show up in person to listen to the worship band because they are the ones who “usher you into the ‘Presence of God'”.
It was so incredibly boring. Every week, Robert just found a different way of saying the same thing, which is worship music is what is REQUIRED for all humans to be able to hear from God. No word on how the hearing impaired hear from God or are ushered into his presence. These 13 weeks built up to the final sermon I quoted from where Robert admitted his message is just the “icing on the cake” but the “cake” was the worship portion of the experience since that is how you enter “His Presence”.
Robert also taught this at his big Pastors’ Conference, so now there are 4,000 mini-Roberts running around telling their congregants to give more and just listen to the music so they don’t need any sermons or the Bible. There are also 4,000 mini-Roberts investing in hugely expensive sound systems, lights, smoke machines and acoustic ceiling panels, instead of using those funds to help the needy or spread the gospel.
I have heard others say before that if the current ARC megas lost their music programs they would fold within a month. I’m not sure that’s true, but in at least 3 months I could see it. The music, the lights and the fog machines put people in a dreamy receptive, dizzy, sort of buzzy delta state where everything feels good. I have heard members joke about how Gatewayt must have found a way to put aerosol Molly into the ventilation system, because the effect is like a bit a “love drug”.
The funny part is that the Saturday 5:45pm service this last weekend showed less than 250 people in a 4,000 seat auditorium. The 12:30pm Sunday service isn’t much better. The other services are also thinning out quite a bit. The 4:00pm Saturday service, which is the one that is televised and broadcasted, stays pretty full because the 800 employees are told to attend that service, with family, plus all the small groups, TKU and now Young Adults are all pressured to attend, so the TV audiences can be fooled into thinking Gateway is full and thriving. But when you watch that big auditorium with hardly any people inside, the buzzy feeling suddenly becomes sad.
Interestingly, the worship leaders literally never change. It’s like they are Stepford worship leaders or cyborgs. They have the identical smiles, pauses, chest thumping, “spontaneous” cued kneeling and differing hand gestures at each of the five services. Not a single expression changes regardless of whether they are performing for 3,600 people or 200. The younger worship leaders on weeknights do show the strain, and seem to lack energy when audience numbers and approval is down. But not the pros on weekends.
I guess the show must go on. But if people figure out that they don’t need a million dollar sound system to “usher them into the presence of God” then Gateway is finished. That’s probably why Robert desperately spent 13 solid weeks banging that 20 piece drum kit over and over on this one topic.
For those who want to hear Robert’s grand finale referenced above https://gatewaypeople.com/ministries/life/events/living-in-his-presence/session/2016/12/10/his-christmas I think this is what desperation smells like.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LT wrote:
Like the mind-controlling Parasymp organs used by The Heirarchy (a corrupt religious dictatorship) in Fritz Leiber’s Gather, Darkness!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ron Oommen wrote:
But then how could she show off how Godly and Devout she was?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Which sounds almost word-for-word what you heard from various “Rock & Roll = The Devil’s Music” preachers.
And the reference to AFRICAN tribes opens up a real can of worms and baggage from a dark past —
Before Rock there was Jazz, before Jazz there was Ragtime.
All three began with the stigma of “N*gg*r Music”; only when they crossed over to white audiences and white musicians entered the genre did they become respectable.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill Rogers wrote:
I smell sock puppet.
Amazing how these Truth Squads come out of the woodwork once their Anointed MoG gets dissed.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeff S wrote:
Hi Jeff,
I just wanted to clarify that what I write is about Gateway and what I know to be the truth there. What they do is by no means universally applicable to all other mega churches.
In Gateway’s case, I know that Robert IS manipulating people and I know that in part because they are one of Leadnet’s largest clients. They pay a load of money for Leadnet’s studies and consulting services and then implement the findings that tell them how to engage in this manipulation. It is cold, strategic and calculated. Last year that manipulation earned them a cool $150M at just 5 campuses. Plus, their ultimate motivation is far more apparent when you listen to Robert Morris’ actual sermons and look at his and the other top executives’ obscenely wealthy personal lifestyles (and nepotism) that it’s all about the money for them.
FTR I think that some of the nicest and most sincere people working at Gateway work on the worship team. I have no fond feelings for the top dogs who are paid outrageous salaries and squander millions on high end European, Asian and Australian vacations, loosely labeled as “mission trips” to make it more palatable. But the rank and file singers and musicians that I knew were good people who loved the Lord and loved music. I think many are being as misled as the members. But for the ones ordained as pastors, I do believe they will have more to answer for at some point in the future.
If people need a massive 10-15 piece band with 95 decibel music, laser lights and so much smoke that you can’t see your hand in front your face, to feel closer to God, I don’t think that is wrong. It is only the motivation at the very top – the people making the decisions and the data they are basing those decisions on – that are manipulative, and when done in the name of Christ, are wrong.
Last year those 10-15 piece bands at Gateway helped “usher” the giving units “into God’s high tech presence” where they in turn gave $7,700 per adult to Gateway. That, and the outrageous way Gateway executives personally enrich themselves off all of this, is what I take exception to.
I am sincerely glad and grateful that you can enjoy the music and still have enough objectivity to be on the watch just in case some of Robert Morris’ doctrine or greed leaks into your church. The truth is that experiencing a wide range of religious services can give you more appreciation for what, in the end, you feel your family needs and benefits most from. One size does not fit all. God has the almighty power to put us where we need to be. Having sensible people like you involved inside a large church helps. Enjoy!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
I’m guessing Dee had this on her mind when she mixed up the names
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2016/11/courage-begets-courage-in-memphis.html This Jim West, of Central Church in Memphis, doesn’t appear to be a good guy, sadly. He’s been accused by a woman of raping her repeatedly when she was underage.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darlene wrote:
True story Darlene – about 2 years ago Gateway paid Jefferson Bethke to fly out from Hawaii to repeat his slam poetry and sell his latest book at the Young Adults Service. Astonishingly, enough of the young adults knew of Jefferson from back in his Mars Hill days and physically got up and walked out. The young adult service draws a different crowd and has a far different message than the weekend service. It was large enough exodus to be noticeable. Many others, however, did stay and waited in line to buy his book and take selfies with him. I fear if it were the regular weekend service all the people would have stayed and thrown money at him.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LT wrote:
What about deaf people?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LT wrote:
Man. Just when I thought they sunk to new lows by doing nothing but sitting in their big, cushy executive chairs all day, sipping on coffee and ignoring people’s phone calls (*), they are now just having a band play during services so they don’t even have to give a sermon.
*Why Most Pastors Aren’t Answering Your Phone Calls
http://www.christianitytoday.com/karl-vaters/2016/august/why-most-pastors-arent-answering-your-phone-calls.html?paging=off
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill Rogers wrote:
Why do you want Israel Houghton restored? Why would anyone want Israel Houghton restored?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
The only “revival” I can think of for this guy might involve Viagra!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill Rogers wrote:
David was not a church leader. How many mistresses and illegitimate children did Peter and Paul have?
Was Lucifer restored? Was Judas restored?
Considering the way IH has lived, while professing to be a Christian, I’ll cut him a little slack as soon as a big fish swallows him, swims around with IH in the fish’s belly for a few days, and then spews him out near a beach somewhere.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy2 wrote:
Preach it, Nancy2!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bill Rogers:
Pharisees were religious leaders that abused God’s laws to empower themselves over others. Whatever else this blog and those who comment here are, they aren’t that. Because this blog isn’t fillied with religious leaders who have that kind of power over others.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
and yet, being here ‘for a while longer’, we follow a Lord Who came here among us and told us how to live …. it is my belief that even the smallest act of Christian kindness and compassion in this world makes a difference that resounds in all eternity. Love is the most powerful force in creation. We are here to care for one another and to bear one another’s burdens.
I think Dietrich Bonhoeffer expressed this well, when he wrote:
“”” We now know that we have been taken up and borne in the humanity of Jesus, and therefore that new nature we now enjoy means that we too must bear the sins and sorrows of others. The incarnate lord makes his followers the brothers and sisters of all humanity. The “philanthropy” of God (Titus 3:4) revealed in the Incarnation is the ground of Christian love towrd all on earth that bear the name of human. The form of Christ incarnate makes the Church into the body of Christ. All the sorrows of humanity falls upon that form, and only through that form can they be borne. The earthly form of Christ is the form that died on the cross. The image of God is the image of Christ crucified. It is to this image that the life of the disciples must be conformed: in other words, they must be conformed to his death (Phil. 3:10; Rom. 6:4). The Christian life is a life of crucifixion.”
(Dietrich Bonhoeffer)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Did this Robert forget that it is waiting in ‘silence’ that we can hear the still small Voice of God? If he has forgotten this, then he has forgotten much.
If he never learnt it, then I think the time will come when God will help him to understand its meaning.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
LOL, great phrase, HEADLESS …. you bring joy here and a lot of good sense with it
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
GMFS
In the light of recent claims and counterclaims about forgiveness, repentance and living in the light of God’s love, I crave the indulgence of my fellow-Wartburgers in order to make an observation on the power of forgiveness.
Many of you will be aware of The Troubles in Northern Ireland. You may know them as the Northern Ireland conflict. You may also be aware that, though it isn’t perfect or complete, reference nowadays is more often to the Peace Process.
I can’t shake the feeling that this is a good thing. It didn’t happen by chance.
I’ve only ever been to Northern Ireland once, and never to the Republic; I grew up in central England and The Troubles did not directly impact me. But I understand the deep and long shadow of history over the region. I don’t know that I would have done well or right had I grown up in Belfast, and I don’t judge those who grew up immersed in The Troubles. (Somehow, “The Troubles” was never a mere euphemism. It has always been loaded with dark meaning.)
The turning point of The Troubles is often stated to be 8th November, 1987. On this day, two very significant things happened.
In the town of Enniskillen, a device planted by the Provisional IRA, and timed to go off just before the town’s Remembrance Day memorial service, caused 11 fatalities and injured 64 others. Among the injured was a draper named Gordon Wilson; among the dead was his daughter Marie. Her last words were: “Daddy, I love you very much”.
Shortly afterwards, Wilson himself was interviewed by (among others) the BBC. In the interview, Wilson famously said: But I bear no ill will. I bear no grudge… I will pray for these men tonight and every night”. Then, and afterwards, Wilson spoke urgently against reprisals and retaliation by Loyalist paramilitaries.
It would be an exaggeration to say that Wilson’s words ended The Troubles (he himself never claimed anything of the sort). But they were a turning point. A man of no celebrity or conspicuous wealth, who might fairly be described as a victim, spoke with extraordinary authority in the face of tragedy. If any of you wish to hear a truly great sermon, I urge you to listen to the brief excerpt from the interview at Wikipedia/Gordon_Wilson (peace campaigner). I defy anyone of decent character to hear it unmoved.
That is what it means to be living in God’s love.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Wow. I am particularly moved that this was ‘a man of no celebrity or conspicuous wealth’ ….. that it was he who was able to speak out of his pain with only love …. like the Lord this man no doubt follows Who from the Cross said ‘Father forgive them for they know not what they do’
one person at a time, one act of love at a time, one gift of compassion at a time ….. like ripples in a pond expanding ever outward
thanks, NICK … a good way for me to begin my day here in a country where we will be needing to understand more than we have done for a very long time, come January and ‘the changing’. God have mercy on us all.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
For several years, my ex-husband claimed he couldn’t afford child support, yet he went on scuba diving trips and flew to ballroom dancing conventions on the other side of the country.
That didn’t go over well with the judge. He awarded me my back child support when we sold our house.
All I can say: It’s fantastic this dude has posted all those travel and jewelry photos on the internet. It makes life so much easier for his ex-wife’s attorney.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill Rogers wrote:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Janey wrote:
Love it!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill Rogers wrote:
Wonderful example satirizing what this crew say!
Right?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’ve heard of how singers/musicians become “Christian” artists because they don’t think they’d make it in secular music. Could this be the case? Could the same be asked regarding business and “Christian” ministers?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Shannon H. wrote:
That would certainly explain why they think they are entitled to groupies…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bill Rogers:
Bill, what does restored mean? The three biblical characters you refer to went through significant, public repentance, AND there was still significant negative consequences.. In contrast, i see this character you are suporting flaunting the high life; Again, i ask what about his kids, including ourbof wedlock kids? Are living the high life? They are 1/2 his genes, and historicaly, human civilzation say we are responsible for our kids…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
Now you mention it, I believe we do have some repeat visitors (possibly regulars) here who leave comments parodying the Elevators. IIRC, one or both of Deebs has had some contact with them away from the site in which they have confirmed that they are, indeed, joking.
I believe Mr Rogers is one of them. Certainly we’ve seen him before; here is a rewarding example of his comedic style:
Bill Rogers on That House
They tend to follow the golden theatrical rule: Never come out of character onstage (or, in this case, online). I get why – it would kind of ruin the joke. But it means you won’t generally be able to converse with them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
What nonsense. Typical of this cess-pool.
You’re all rubbish.
Up Yours,
Roger Bombast
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Yes. Mr. Rogers is a periodic regular 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nick
Have you ever read The Three Faces of Eve? LOL
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bill Rogers:
Nice to hear from you again, Bill. I think he should have wet t shirt contests since he is going down this road.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeff S wrote:
Though their brown-nosed sock puppets do drop by to denounce us In The Name Of The LOOORD all the time.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ LT:
I appreciate you sharing all of that. I was a little springboarding off your own experience to share mine.
The thing is, I DON’T enjoy the music at my church, which is a shame, because I do love music. And I even enjoy contemporary music. I just feel disconnected (but my wife does not, so I recognize my experience is not universal).
But yeah, I do believe that, regardless of my own experience, that the desires and hearts of the leaders in the church are aimed toward responding to God, and that part sounds different from what you are describing.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Because PASTOR said so.
“WE ARE UNITED UNDER THE VISIONARY!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Janey:
Bingo. That is why I posted some of these pics. I thought it might help out all those kids he’s fathered.
You mentioned ballroom dancing competition. The Deebs had a friend whose husband decided to dump her. The pastors of his church defended him and kept him on. He was an elder. He got into ballroom dancing as well. Is ballroom dancing the thing to do when guys dump their wives?
I am so sorry that your ex didn’t care about his family above himself. I am so glad you got your back child support.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Janey wrote:
Hee hee hee…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
2 comments not approved. They were funny but a bit off color or political.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Jeffrey Chalmers:
I think Bill is being satirical. He tends to show up on Furtick posts but you would have no way of knowing that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
It looks like the child support charges have been tossed
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Shannon H.:
I recently heard an interview with one of the guys from Newsboys. He stated that he wasn’t a Christian but enjoyed singing with the group. Cannot remember which one.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill Rogers wrote:
Oh, my. David was forgiven, remained king, but the results of David’s sins wrecked havoc in his family and compromised his leadership and the sword did not depart from David. If that is ‘restored’ then sure, people who blatantly habitually sin can be ‘restored’ to a relationship with God, but repentance does not make something ‘as if it never happened’ or something like ‘a free pass from the consequences’ based on the example of David. Nor did forgive mean forget in the case of David.
Peter denied knowing Jesus under a situation where he feared for his life, not as a habitual life style/position. The early church dealt with the issue of what to do about people who denied Christ under persecution/torture/mortal threat and decided that yes, even they could be restored, but not by merely saying they were sorry. I am not seeing mortal threat in IH’s situation. Does God forgive? Certainly, on His own terms and in His own time and only as between Him and the person, because God only (not man) knows the heart. Should the church assume that a person has repented and been forgiven based on that person’s testimony. Well, yes but verify by looking at that person’s post-repentance life style before rushing forward to ‘restore’ someone to public ministry without seeing evidences of repentance but only hearing ‘sorry’ sung to the tune of whatever?
And Paul was ‘restored’? What and when? Paul was converted to believing in Jesus from not believing in Jesus, but Christianity has called this a damascus road conversion, not some restoration. And Paul did not cease to say the rest of his life that he was the worst of sinners, and that he continually disciplined himself, apparently because he knew what he was. This was not restoration. This was conversion. And there was the testimony of his post-conversion lifestyle.
And ‘go and sin no more’ looks like all that Jesus said to the woman taken in adultery about her future. He did not say ‘now you go on over to the temple and be like Anna the widow and prophetess in the temple’. Jesus tells everybody ‘go and sin no more’ but that does not make everybody an example to the church, the world and the children. Nor is ‘go and sin no more’ a call to a ministry vocation, but rather is is a baseline minimal requirement of us all.
Unless, I suppose, one is a musician or a motivational speaker who can attract the crowd and deliver the cash in the service of The Great Money God. Or unless one kisses the appropriate anatomy of the appropriate celebrity? Or unless one has accumulated some sort of personal power which one can then sell to those who are also all about power, and at that point we have the politics of religion. Have we not seen enough of that historically?
Way back in the day we used to pitilessly criticize the catholics for what you are recommending. We used to say that catholics could live any way they wanted all week and then just go to confession come Saturday and get declared forgiven, until after mass on Sunday when they would get right back to those things which they had just confessed. I don’t see that in scripture. Nor was that what the RCC actually taught, but it sure did seem to get practiced by some folks. That is not okay, and it does not become okay merely because it seems to be a popular idea in high profile protestantism today.
Sorry there Bill but you need more substantive arguments.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lea:
Yes-he shows up on the Furtick posts and is satirical. The first few times he posted, we thought he was sincere. Actually his take off on Christian thinking is so funny that I would like him to write a post one of these days. True satire-when you don’t know whether they are kidding or not.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ okrapod:
And BTW, if Bill was being satirical he none the less gave me a chance to preach against something that is prevalent in christianity today. So if that was satire, then thanks Bill, for the soap box.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bill Rogers:
One of these days, perhaps for April 1st, I would love for you to consider writing a post just the way you comment. You always make me laugh. What is so good about what you do is that it is hard to tell whether it is a joke or not. That sort of satire nails the “Christianese” out there.
I am dead serious-promise. Think about it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Yes, I get that a lot.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ MidwesternEasterner:
I agree. The three guys in the Memphis child sex abuse situation are launching things like You Tube discussions, etc. I get so excited when victims turn to the Internet. The more people doing it, the more chances we have of changing hearts and minds out there.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
You have a talent. You make me laugh after only one sip of coffee.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
okrapod wrote:
I think that’s the idea, yes.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Is anybody else getting the phrase “Poe-ing competition” here? That could work!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ okrapod:
I like your comment. There are many people who say what Bill said and mean it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Well, just as long as it doesn’t happen mid-sip.
#LaurelAndHardyMoments
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Well, you can meet a LOT of female partners that way…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
The Biblical record is clear; Mr. Houghton’s lifestyle is clear … Israel Houghton ain’t no David, Peter or Paul! How many “reproaches” does the church allow Mr. Houghton before they disqualify him from ministry? Adultery wasn’t reproach enough … divorce wasn’t reproach enough … an affair while ministering wasn’t reproach enough … having children out of wedlock wasn’t reproach enough … dodging child support wasn’t reproach enough. So how does his church define “above reproach” as a qualifier for church leadership? Are there different rules for Christianity Lite? Are these approaches deemed OK in order to be culturally-relevant? Do you have to live like the devil in order to reach others who are living like hell? Do you have to have an immoral background in order to be credible to those you minister to? What in hell is wrong with such stinkin’ thinkin’?! (“in hell” might be a clue).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Travis wrote:
Nothing like Friends in High Places, eh, Facilier?
“WE ARE UNITED UNDER THE VISIONARY!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Travis wrote:
I read in one source that he agreed to pay for one of the out of wedlock kids but was debating on the other. Could you let me know a source and I willed it to the post?
Also, since you are following this, I recently heard that may be a third child with another women? Have you heard about this? Confirmation?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Very good satrie
@ dee:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Janey wrote:
Yep, just the “happy couple in Greece” photo posted above would swing the court’s decision for sure!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
I think that Paris wedding shot was the winner. Big bucks to stay in Paris these days even for us normal folks …. those two would be found guilty in court of definite conspicuous consumption in light of his neglected child-care payments
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Israel Houghton: A Questionable Revival Leader for Steven Furtick and Elevation Church”
Another disturbing element to this headline is that there are thousands who would flock to Elevation to hear Houghton sing! These “worshipers” would willingly ignore the concerns posted on this blog if they could just be gathered with the multitude to sway to his “Christian” beat. Yep, I don’t know what disturbs me most … the fact that the church has such folks on the stage or that they have an audience! Strange days in the American church as strange fire is offered up to Heaven.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Yeah, contrast that with an image in your mind of his children grieving for their father.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Janey wrote:
And easier for the ex-mistress.
And for the he possible third child’s mother.
And I hope the new Mrs. has her eyes wide open!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I honestly didn’t know one way or the other! I think what makes it seem more like satire than truth is the lack of malice. Anger always seems to come through the true believers.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Most of them probably have no idea, and don’t bother to find anything out about the people that lead them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
when was ‘Church’ ever supposed to be an entertainment with a stage and an audience ??????
‘Build the stage and the people will come’?
The only entertainment I’m aware of in early Christianity was when the Christian were not in the ‘audience’, they were being fed to the lions. Since that time, I suppose it has changed a bit: ‘christians’ sit in the audience and the wolves on stage feast off of the audience’s tithes …. I suppose that’s more practical as if the wolves killed off the audience, the flow of $$$$$$$ would dry up fast
What remains in both entertainment situations is that the Christians are ‘being had’. And it’s a bloody shame.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
not hard to imagine …. saw many heart-broken kids when I was teaching …. parents have no clue how intensely children suffer from family troubles
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Christianity Lite is the theme of the day – we’ve taken the salt out of salt! Things started going south in “church” when church leaders decided to construct platforms over prayer altars to provide more room for pride to strut around. But the pew shares equal responsibility in this mess with the pulpit … if you don’t entertain them, they won’t come.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
I saw that teaching as well, along with the parents blaming the other parent, ex-in-laws, us teachers… anybody but themselves for their children acting out.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Bridget wrote:
Billy, however, ain’t to be confused wit’ YOURS TRULY. He ain’t no brother of mine!
My apologies, children, for the improper grammar. The Visionary under whom we are united up in these elevations gives us much more leeway than show business does. Did you know I can keep my sneakers and cardigan on all day if I want?
And our Revival Leader– he literally brings them up from the dead!
One more thing– I almost forgot– my mansion up here is 10 times the size of Pastor Steven’s!
Don’t quote me on this– we’re not allowed to know– but I saw an “adorably cute” (as the realtors say) little place going up in the development which just may have Steven’s name on it, assuming he makes it here.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Yep. But Christianity Lite is not Christianity, according to Somebody or other whom we used to pay attention to when He commented that salt without its savor is worth nothing but to be thrown out and walked on. Now we package this worthless substance in pretty packages, sell it for 10% plus, and threaten and accuse people if they don’t lap it up, even for crying out loud threaten them with demon possession if they don’t join the parade.
Here is the theological question: if one is on fire for foolishness is that the same as being lukewarm for the things of Christ? Does on fire for foolishness deserve being spewed out of the mouth?
We are losing out collective mind(s).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ ishy:
there are some memories that I wished I could forget, those children were so very sad ….. people just don’t realize
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
And True Believers will always go farther out than a satirist can ever imagine.
As crazy as you can go for humor, there will always be a True Believer out there twice as crazy, twice as far out, and DEAD SERIOUS.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Have to Keep Up with the Furticks, you know.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Eyes closed, hands upraised, swaying like a reed in the breeze.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Fred Rogers wrote:
It’s a Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood.
Have you seen the display in Terminal C of Pittsburgh Airport?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
My daughter was a teacher for “at risk” children. Essentially, these were kids who were behind in school because of their home environments (dads in prison, moms on drugs, grandparents struggling to raise them, etc.). She would go into school early to let a first grader in who was dropped there by a family member. He never knew where he would be sleeping each night and was always exhausted. She gave him a snack, fixed him a little bed in a corner of the classroom behind a bookcase and would wake him when the other children arrived. She let those children know that she loved them, secretly prayed with them, read them Bible stories, and told them about Jesus (she could have lost her job for this). When they left her class, most tested at grade-level. She was their “church”, while she educated them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
While all that you have printed may have validity – no one, especially the media knows all of the details regarding this or any other similar situation – but we tend to spend a lot of time harping on ministers and celebrities they are easy targets – they are saved by God’s Grace also – not perfect. My bottom line statement is let He who is not in the lime light and without sin throw the first stone. Wow, I can only imagine the conversation surrounding King David and Sheba – hmmm, and he was selected by God – spend more time in prayer and pray for the Saints in the spotlight so that they will have testimonies that will bring sinners into the Kingdom. Do not let the world see Christians behaving like they do – check your heart
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
For new Wartburgers, the principle cited by our cranially-challenged magical equine friend is actually A Thing, and is known informally as “Poe’s Law” – see the wiki page thereon.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
From what you describe, you could put it more strongly.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lynn wrote:
Be cautious about quoting verses out of context. The Bible says to expose the darkness in the church. Paul exposed the 1 Cor 5 situation.
However, please feel free to expose my sins. I have no problem with that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
I’m glad you are helping the ex-wives and ex-partners and their children who get dumped by deadbeat dads.
Your story is funny. Apparently ballroom dancing allows Christian men to meet and get close physically and emotionally to women. It allows them to trespass normal boundaries in the name of dance lessons.
The ex’s of deadbeat guys (and gals) need to go to court, even if they can’t afford an attorney. The State takes it very seriously, especially if the children have to go on state-funded assistance. Some people think it’s hopeless when their ex gets paid under the table, but they should still try.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lynn wrote:
Ummm, no. I believe that was Solomon, a man of many wives and at least that one who was not a wife. You are recommending that behavior?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lynn:
Lynn’s comment got me to thinking (again) about how many well meaning American Christians confuse loyalty to a persona* to love for Jesus. I do not mean to attribute this thinking to her, merely that her words were the catalyst used by my mind.
*I say “persona” because we all can attest that celebrities’, secular or otherwise, public personality is often very different from their private personality. Similar to Dorian Gray, men and women whose lives and livelihood is determined by the rise and fall of public opinion carefully craft a facade which is custom tailored to look resplendent under the limelight but is revealed to be cracked and worn when exposed to the light of reality – truly the definition of insincerus, aka insincere, “without wax”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lynn wrote:
That is exactly the point. There ought not be ‘celebrities’ or those ‘in the lime light’ in the first place. This is not biblical. The church has gone way off base in letting this happen at all.
“check your heart”
Glad to, while you go and check scripture. Check back when you have chapter and verse in how to deal with celebrities and lime lighters in ‘ministry’.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lynn wrote:
First of all, none of your Christianese has any biblical basis. Stop listening to people about what the Bible says and start studying it for yourself.
Second, I’m frankly sick and tired of the “I have God’s grace, therefore I can do whatever I want and there should be no consequences.” This is like telling God you hate Him, but deserve His grace anyway. It’s found nowhere in the Bible, and actually the Bible says over and over this is not the case. Read the book of Jude. It describes these types of leaders and churches perfectly: “they are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality” v.4.
Last, grace is not and has never been a qualification for leadership of God’s people.It’s faith that is the qualification, not grace. And a working faith bears good fruit. Why would He trust His people to those who abuse their own relationships? If they can’t balance their families, they are not qualified to lead others. ” Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.” -1 Tim. 3:12
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lynn wrote:
Wow, I can only imagine what your opinion would be like if you actually read the Bible or cared even a tiny bit what it had to say about qualifications for leaders and what to do when those who presume to have some ability to lead in a fellowship sin.
“As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all…” I Tim 5
But there’s your problem, Lynn, the Bible, and quite possibly the One Who inspired it. Take it up with Him, He’s the One you’re struggling against.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
We’re probably spitting into the wind. It’s very doubtful that Lynn cares jack squat what the Bible has to say at all if that Bible turns round and casts aspersions on her human idols.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
okrapod wrote:
Gosh, I didn’t catch that. Her post was written by the biblically illiterate for the biblically illiterate. Just shows the mindset that surrounds the whole Furtick phenomenon. It’s a sick and disgraceful world.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ okrapod:
Oh, wait, I am thinking that ‘Sheba’ is reference to the Queen of Sheba who allegedly went back to Ethiopia pregnant; the whole Ethiopian story which continues to this day. You may have meant ‘Bathsheba’ the wife of Uriah. David was confronted by Nathan over the Bathsheba/Uriah scandal, so I would not think that would be used to excuse sexual misconduct much less engineering the death of someone merely because somebody was a king, since that is not how the story goes in scripture. But Solomon got away with it with the Queen of Sheba, so called, and I supposed that is what you meant.
Either way, scripture or tradition, it was adultery and the scripture does not condone adultery. Not even for kings, as seen in David’s life.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LT wrote:
Thing is, big churches are typically leveraged to the point of danger, and it’s likely Gateway is no different. It may be that Gateway is not long for the world unless Morris can find some angel investors, so to speak.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Your daughter is one of the shining stars spoken of by the Prophet Daniel.
Fired huh? For allegedly establishing a state religion?
Had my life taken a different tack and had I become a high-powered barrister, I would have defended her in Federal Court for free.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
your daughter’s kindness to the children is radiant …. it is true that proselytizing can get someone fired, but I think kindness to those little ones is not the same thing at all ….. I remember a little girl saying to me that she wished she had a father, and (without thinking) I told her that she had a heavenly Father Who loved her far more than any earthly father ever could. I know I did the right thing. She was comforted, I think. Could I have got in trouble for that???? I don’t know. I’m not sure I cared. In the moment when a child needs to be comforted, you don’t take a look at ‘the rules’ first and plan what you are ‘allowed’ to say to them. . . . . it doesn’t work that way.
Your daughter is a blessing. You can be thankful. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Just glad they didn’t put my sneakers and sweater by O’Hare’s gate C-17, where they might get abducted by UFO’s.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Steven sure organized a motley crew for his “revival”… wonder if Perry Noble would’ve been a speaker if he hadn’t been defrocked. And between Mr. Vigue and Mr. Houghton, Mr. Furtick seems to have a hard time choosing heroes who are above reproach.
I’m pretty sure I’ve heard at least one of Houghton’s songs without even realizing it. My former church worship band played contemporary music almost exclusively, so I’m guessing his songs would be in their mix (a pretty shallow mix, as every few weeks or so songs would start repeating.) I haven’t followed Christian music (or any music for that matter) very closely since around 2002 or so, so I can’t tell who sang what song originally. I do recall that one song that popped up a lot talked about “sloppy wet kissing” which sounds more suited for a nightclub than a church (then again, the lights and fog machines were more suited for a nightclub, as well.) Other songs were just as theologically limp, if not quite so creepy.
One annoying thing my old church did was transform “7/11” songs into “7/24” songs, to the point where it transformed from singing to mindless cult-like chanting. I’m not sure when mindless repetition became a trend, or why this church felt compelled to make a bad thing even worse, but I couldn’t stand their type of worship.
On a final note, Houghton goes on expensive European vacations. Furtick lives it up in his 16,000 square foot mansion. Birds of a feather?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lynn wrote:
Seriously. It was such a drag when Nathan told him he was worthy of death and his son would die. Why didn’t someone tell him about grace?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
okrapod wrote:
Yeah, I figured she was being cutesy shortening Bathsheba, but she could have been confused.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
It would be nice if people would quit pretending David was a spiritual leader, too. His job was never teaching gods word, he was King. His job was political. I loved to read Samuel growing up because the stories were so interesting but I am so tired of hearing that everybody in ministries sin/criminality is ok because of David. No.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
LEA,
I’m Catholic, so I don’t know from what you were taught about King David, but what the nuns told us was that David’s name holds a key to how he lived his life:
the ‘V’ in the middle of ‘DAVID’ reminds us that he fell badly into sin in the middle of his life;
but then that wasn’t the end of the story, and he repented and was able to turn again toward the Lord: the ‘V’ show that David fell downward, but then after he hit bottom, he came up again with God’s help and was able to return to God.
Now Solomon is another story: The nuns would write his name on the board starting with a large ‘S’, a slightly smaller ‘O’ and they would decrease the size of the letters until they got to the tiny ‘n’ at the end of his name,
all to teach us that Solomon had started out in the friendship of God, but that over the course of his life, he turned away from God.
Good we don’t see these two men in the same way. Each one tells the ages-old story of mankind’s choices in this world, some depart from God, but return to Him and others depart and do not return to Him.
Our goal was to end this life IN the friendship of God.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lynn wrote:
You know, you’re right, Lynn. It doesn’t matter if these people in the lime light are really Christians, or just self-serving Pharisees. It’s okay if they’re on their second or third wife and have two or three children out of wedlock. Shoot, it prolly doesn’t even matter if they’re giving drugs to teenagers in exchange for sex.
We just need to shut our traps and throw our hard-earned money in the plate, and keep supporting their lifestyles!
That’s what Jesus was all about, wasn’t it?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
okrapod wrote:
Excellent observation! And I tend to think that when the state of being “on fire” gets a lot of play, foolishness usually turns out to be involved.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lea:
David was more than just a political leader.
“He chose David also his servant,
And took him from the sheepfolds:
From following the ewes great with young he brought him
To feed Jacob his people,
And Israel his inheritance.
So he fed them according to the integrity of his heart;
And guided them by the skilfulness of his hands”
https://ref.ly/Ps78.70-72;kjv1900
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lynn wrote:
“Sheba” used to be the archetypal name for a dog over here. Especially a large dog (there were a lot of German shepherd dogs called “Sheba” for some reason).
That’s probably it.
I can’t tell whether Lynn is a satirist or a new concern troll – we’re on fire today!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
I was taught the stories from the bible.
Lowlandseer wrote:
Goodness, apparently this touched a nerve.
My point is, he was not a priest. He was not a prophet. He was not a teaching elder. He was King.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
siteseer wrote:
Remember “Teen Mania” and “Acquire the Fire”?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
And it might be wise to remember that Saul was an anointed king, too.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Fred Rogers wrote:
I’ve been through O’Hare a couple times on the way to Pitt & Philly.
(Not one of my favorite transfer airports — Denver’s much better.)
What’s the significance of Gate C-17?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
Lea, the Book of Acts teaches us that David WAS prophetic:
Acts 2:34-35
For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
AnonInNC wrote:
The song you’re thinking of is “How He Loves” by John Mark McMillan. Apparently, it’s a southern term.
http://kevinsimmons.org/2011/in-defense-of-a-sloppy-wet-kiss/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
David said that God said to him ‘You shall not build a house to my name because you have been a man of war and have shed blood.’
Which is how Solomon got to be the temple builder.
Whatever David was or was not there is no indication in scripture that God gave David a free pass for anything. David’s ‘cast me not away from thy presence and take not thy Holy Spirit from me’ is awesome, but a dead baby and a shattered family and public humiliation and failed dreams of the temple-not so awesome. And for that matter the man of war thing was exactly what David was anointed by Samuel on behalf of God to do, that is part of what kings did, but it cost him the dream of building the temple.
Where did we ever get the impression that God played by our rules? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
I wonder what’s wrong with just having the Eucharist being the focal point of worship again. That’s not something you can get by just watching TV. But on the other hand, it isn’t flashy or entertaining either. So Furtick and Morris et al., aren’t going to go for that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
I’m thinking that in the entire Bible, aside from the heavenly harps of Revelation, there were approximately TWO large worship services with instruments. The first was Solomon’s temple dedication when: ‘The priests took their assigned positions, and so did the Levites who were singing, “His faithful love endures forever!” They accompanied the singing with music from the instruments King David had made for praising the LORD. Across from the Levites, the priests blew the trumpets, while all Israel stood.’ (Fire also fell from heaven and thousands of animals were sacrificed)
And the second? ‘”When you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes, and other musical instruments, bow to the ground to worship King Nebuchadnezzar’s gold statue. Anyone who refuses to obey will immediately be thrown into a blazing furnace.”
So at the sound of the musical instruments,d all the people, whatever their race or nation or language, bowed to the ground and worshiped the gold statue that King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.’
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
okrapod wrote:
Probably when they realized it came with large amounts of money.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy2 wrote:
A+, Nancy2!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lynn wrote:
And ministers often harp on their congregants. That’s the point. For instance, Mark Driscoll; he didn’t stay under his own church’s discipline and elder guidance, he just up and left and started a new church. Most of these celebrity pastors demand much more of their congregants than they do of themselves – that’s the problem.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Dave A A:
Do tambourines count as music, as in are rhythm instruments part of the picture? If so there is Miriam leading the women all with tambourines and dancing. I like the dancing part. Modern liturgical dance is a performance, not a participatory event, sad to say. We have so dang much performance any more.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
At my most recent church we went over a year whilst singing together in a meeting just once, at Christmas. It just happened that way, and I think we still managed to keep Eph5:19 and Col 3:16 about making melody in our hearts to the Lord. I actually found it refreshing.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Shannon H. wrote:
And then there are the singers who leave Christian music because they tire of the boundaries. Leslie Phillips became Sam Phillips at the end of the 1980s and everyone knows who Katy Hudson, oops, Katy Perry, is. I would note that Ms. Phillips has never been as popular as Ms. Perry, but she does have a devoted fan following.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
It’s late here in Blighty (not to mention dark, the shortest day being a week today), so I’ll just add one observation on the topic of music and other performing art in a gathering of the church.
Comment 1 of 1
Came across someone not long ago who led off every meeting with the phrase “I think we should have some worship”. Bit of a shame, really.
Comment 2 of 1
I think we should incorporate the Maori haka.
One example here… but there are many others.
And no, I’m not joking.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Good idea. You go first.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LT wrote:
LT, I didn’t know Jonathan Bethke attended Mars Hill. Do you know how long? Why did those folks walk out of the service? When I saw the Bethke video for the first time, it was evident to me that it dripped with condescension and arrogance. From what I remember, there were some Neo Calvinists who liked his video as well.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
that’s some ‘shotgun’ wedding
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
In other words, it wasn’t just Gateway folks who liked that Bethke video. It fed into the arrogance of many others groups within Evangelicalism.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
okrapod wrote:
They count. One of many wonderful examples of true, often spontaneous worship. I should modify the occasions I mentioned to be officially planned musical worship events.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Where is this dude’s fear of God? I assure you; even if man is giving him a pass on these things that God won’t. Too bad the pastors that have relationship with him do not wake him up to the real spiritual danger his soul is in for such blatant defiance of God’s will.
And fathering TWO kids via adultery is SERIOUS SIN! It is a pattern. A pattern demonstrating a scary willingness to live a treacherous, deceitful, and utterly wicked double life. DO THEY REALLY THINK THEY ARE SAFE TRUSTING SUCH A PERSON WITH DEMONSTRABLY BAD CHARACTER?! Crazy.
(Besides, I don’t see the Bible giving an adulterer a pass to remarry…just saying).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Divorce Minister wrote:
Would you hold a presidential candidate to the same standard? Just saying…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Divorce Minister wrote:
I’m not sure where Houghton weighs in on New Calvinism, but the misplaced grace message in that movement provides a lot of wiggle room for sinners.
Divorce Minister wrote:
Wake him up?! Heck, they are providing opportunities for him to perform in church without correction! It is a synergistic relationship whereby they benefit each other.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“real spiritual danger his soul is in” This tripped a memory for me, folks use to remind me about what danger my “soul” was in, well some, others made it clear that people like me don’t have one of those. A soul that is. But the ones that concluded that I did, maybe, have a soul were convinced it was for sure damned or close to being. It usually came up when I would express concern about some stupid thing leadership was doing, like church discipline for people with mental health issues after they told said person to stop interventions of such mental health issues I E schizophrenia is a spiritual problem and you need to get over it. Of course people with severe autism who might smack themselves in the head were also dealing with a demonic issue. Of course, we know they are not doing it because the environment is overstimulating them and they lack the capacity to filter out said environmental stimulus. Well, we understand that is to psychological thus its “man’s” wisdom and not God’s. Or they are faking it because they want to live off the government dole, that goes for all those fakers in the wheelchairs as well. Yes, people talk that way, yes I have heard that, yes it made me extremely angry. Or maybe it’s pointing out that Ann Coulter does not present facts accurately and she is rather nasty and that is not of God. But I have that explained to me as she is not politically Correct and is standing up for the faith. That goes for a lot of pundits on all sides of the isle.
I will be honest it got and gets so tiring that in some faith groups having to explain why I am not a complete waste of air on a somewhat regular basis. Funny thing is I never raised my voice, I never called people names, I never questioned someone’s motives, salvation, love for Jesus etc. On the other had it was a constant theme to be told, I don’t know God, I don’t love God, I’m manipulative etc. Even having people pray that God would take me out if I did not repent comes to mind. To be honest I think some if not much of this is not skewed in my remembrance because of all the pain and fog, which is one reason I don’t mention names of churches or folks because I am not sure if I am relating the interactions in a very accurate manner. I am relating the impressions and in some cases actual word for word encounters but the context may be skewed if that makes sense. I do believe it is critical for me to add this last part for some “balance” because the fine blog owners and you kind folks deserve that much if that makes sense. Thank you for letting me say this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lynn wrote:
Let me guess, is your last name also Rogers?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Muff Potter wrote:
Well, first of all, she wasn’t fired.
Second, she would have been counseled to stay away from the religion in school, not fired outright.
Third, if she was fired and went to court, she would have lost, because no matter how nice she was and how innocuous the stories about Jesus, that’s the camel’s nose under the tent.
Let me tell you what happens when a teacher decides her religion holds sway in the classroom. She can tell a seven year old child, “Deana, we are not pigs, we pray before we eat.” It might help to know that the seven year old child was me, I was brand new in the class, my family didn’t pray before meals, we never prayed before meals in previous classes, and I was profoundly humiliated in front of classmates I would spend another 5 years with, because I appeared untutored and irreligious. Oh, and this was 1968 in the Bay Area in California, nearly five years after the Supreme Court ruled against school prayer in Schempp v. Abington Township. It’s not like this teacher didn’t know. She knew and did it anyway.
So, no, religion in the public school classroom is not benign. It’s just not. It should be taught in the home, where the parents can oversee what they want their children to learn. In the case of my parents, it was Christmas and Easter religion. The public school teacher infringed on that!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I remember seeing a meme that went:
“I’m an Orthodox Christian in favor of school prayer. Because conservative teachers won’t find it weird that my son says an akathist to the Theotokos every morning after venerating his favorite icon”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Thanks for sharing your story Brian. As someone on the autism spectrum, I can definitely relate. Churches should be safe spaces for people like us. Too often, they are not.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ LT:
Have you ever seen a video of people cheering for Kim Jong un or Kim Jong il? Everyone’s trying to outcheer the next guy, or else. I’ve seen worship music sessions turn into that.
Your narrative reminds me of something I read from Robert Morris’s good neighborino Matt Chandler. I’ve been reading the sermon series “A Beautiful Design” where he lays out of his version of complementarianism. One week he brings in a goon pastor to bash men and tell them all the ways they do horrible things and don’t do good things, and one of his points was that not being into the worship tunes enough was “sinful refusal to delight in God”. Can you imagine that? A bunch of Matt Chandler’s biblical men closing their eyes, hugging themselves, and swaying?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lynn wrote:
Oh, those pesky secret details that keep a person from assessing the most blatantly obvious situations… only in the church.
You said ‘we’ so I guess you are including yourself in there?
When they are.
It’s so easy to say the words, you don’t have to be sincere or honest. What is the fruit? “The one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”
Bring those sinners into the Kingdom so they can be Saints and sin with impunity!
What am I supposed to be checking my heart for?
The hypocrisy, sin and foolishness are easy for the world to see. “Because of them the way of the truth will be maligned.”
If you try to hide it, you’ll only be fooling yourself. I say let the world see a Christian being honest and facing the facts. I think that’s the best way to go.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Further up comment, a poster mentioned Furtick’s 16,000SF abode. This is a needed accoutrement for Furtick to rub shoulders with people like Joyce Meyer, Houghton, etc. It shows he’s arrived!
This year there’s a $13,800+ real estate tax bill that goes with the property. You can bet, Steven is thrilled he pays not one penny in Federal income taxes on money he uses to pay this expense.
How much more would we all have if we no longer had to pay Federal income taxes on ALL of our housing expenses? These so-called religious men of God are only too happy to have the Federal government help them out year after year.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Stan wrote:
Ha ha ha ha! Man, you can’t make this stuff up.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:
“pigs” There are also derogatory descriptions I can use for a teacher that bullies a student.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill M wrote:
We do have more than one guest satirist, or else one that posts under different names.
I think Lynn’s comment was meant to be a parody.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
okrapod wrote:
Kikiki kakaka kauana!
Kei waniwania taku tara
Kei tarawahia, kei te rua i te kerokero!
He pounga rahui te uira ka rarapa;
Ketekete kau ana to peru kairiri
Mau au e koro e – Hi! Ha!
Ka wehi au ka matakana,
Ko wai te tangata kia rere ure?
Tirohanga ngā rua rerarera
Ngā rua kuri kakanui i raro! Aha ha!
Ka mate, ka mate! ka ora! ka ora!
Ka mate! ka mate! ka ora! ka ora!
Tēnei te tangata pūhuruhuru
Nāna nei i tiki mai whakawhiti te rā
Ā, upane! ka upane!
Ā, upane, ka upane, whiti te ra!</strong
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Look who’s not paying attention to his angular brackets…
🙁
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
siteseer wrote:
Its the Little Voices.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
My word; I do say and all that. It is almost as compelling in print as on the video. Having seen that I have decided to let you not only go first but also last. I do hope that you understand.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele:
Never said she was fired. My comment was simply a theoretical where and when.
There have been abuses on both sides of the issue since Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka in 1954. That’s why we have federal appeals courts, so that each case can be evaluated and judged on its own merits.
Tell ya’ what. Let’s you and me tangle before the bench in that theoretical where and when, and may the best bull$#i++er win.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Olivia wrote:
What makes you think he pays that expense out of his own pocket?
“TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
brian wrote:
i.e. Putting a Hex on you.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Just ROMISH.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
They say that type of CCM is real popular in the Gay Community.
Because “Where else can you hear a man singing a gushy love song to another man?”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Muff Potter wrote:
We have federal appeals’ courts to see if there were any errors of law committed by the lower federal trial courts (i.e. U.S. District Courts). Appeals courts do not retry cases.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Muff Potter wrote:
Here is Brown v. Board of Education, which was about segregation, not school prayer.
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/347us483
“Question
Does the segregation of public education based solely on race violate the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment?”
Yes. Chief Justice Earl Warren delivered the opinion of the unanimous Court. The Supreme Court held that “separate but equal” facilities are inherently unequal and violate the protections of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court also held that the segregation of public education based on race instilled a sense of inferiority that had a hugely detrimental effect on the education and personal growth of African American children.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Muff Potter:
Here is the U.S. Supreme Court case about school prayer (Engel v. Vitale, 1962).
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1961/468
“Question
‘Does the reading of a nondenominational prayer at the start of the school day violate the “establishment of religion” clause of the First Amendment?’
Conclusion
Sort: by seniority by ideology
6–1 DECISION FOR ENGEL
MAJORITY OPINION BY HUGO L. BLACK
John M. Harlan II
Harlan
Hugo L. Black
Black
William O. Douglas
Douglas
Potter Stewart
Stewart
William J. Brennan, Jr.
Brennan
Byron R. White
White
Earl Warren
Warren
Tom C. Clark
Clark
Felix Frankfurter
Frankfurter
“Yes. Neither the prayer’s nondenominational character nor its voluntary character saves it from unconstitutionality. By providing the prayer, New York officially approved religion. This was the first in a series of cases in which the Court used the establishment clause to eliminate religious activities of all sorts, which had traditionally been a part of public ceremonies. Despite the passage of time, the decision is still unpopular with a majority of Americans.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Velour:
This comment is not directed to Velour specifically, but I am quoting her comment to ponder below.
I find some rulings, like this one, interesting. It seems that many government and public meetings have had some form of prayer to start them off since the first amendment was instituted. I wonder what those original men did mean when they established the amendment since many of them continued to pray publicly at public and working government gatherings. Of course, the public school system, itself, did not even exist when the amendments were ratified.
Have government officials, and others, been violating the constitution for all these years?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
it is possible that people want to PREVENT ‘proselytizing’ in public schools rather than restrict exposure to the experience of quiet prayer …. I do see the two as separate because one is mean-spirited and the other is not.
Then you get questions about how to ‘accommodate’ the different faiths represented in a public school system, plus the students whose parents are not religious and who have been given no religious training. This is a serious matter.
My public school system had a ‘middle way’: a ‘quiet moment’ after the flag salute where people would keep standing and could pray silently or have a moment to think about something meaningful ….. this, I thought was respectful and allowed for some personal expression of silent prayer to begin the school day.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bridget wrote:
I, too.
My best guess is that they established it as a bulwark against the kind of state religion seen for many generations in Europe, that had been the cause of so much corrupting of the church and thence of so much oppression and cruelty.
It’s always difficult to build something really effective that’s fundamentally against something else, though. What you’re building is still defined by what you’re rejecting and there will always be consequences, some of them quite unintended.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bridget wrote:
I think they split hairs here somehow, or maybe they just don’t worry about it because it is not an educational environment?
Things always crop up this time of year due to Christmas (Charlie brown case, for instance). We have somebody trying to force my state to put up a weird statue of some sort of god? I think they made them take the nativity down years ago.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I am in total agreement with this thought. I believe they had seen way too much religious and state cruelty, especially when the two are combined.
It is interesting to watch how current day courts interpret the Constitution versus how men 300 years ago would interpret the same text. I think we see/suffer/experience similar issues with scripture.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LT wrote:
The phrase “4000 mini-Roberts”, all by itself, was enough to make me shudder and want to lie down for a while.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Paraphrasing the villain in the Austin Powers movie…
“I Shall Call Him ‘Mini-Me’! And Mini-Me! And Mini-Me! And Mini-Me! And …”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
If that was “The Satanic Temple”, there’s every indication that was a hoax with some street theater mixed in.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Velour:
Thanx for the correction. Sorry to get my cases (segregation & religion) mixed up. I still stand on my original position however, that expressions of religious faith and those expressions derived from religious constructs should not be prohibited in the public square, public educational facilities, or public buildings.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’m sure it is some kind of joke, it’s just a question of how far they’ll take it. They did go to the trouble of submitting a formal request.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
Or, in the case of your friend, an opportunity to be passive aggressively cruel bordering on viciously sadistic in the name of god.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Muff Potter wrote:
Welcome, Muff.
An individual’s First Amendment rights are protected in the places that you listed. The government, however, can’t promote religion.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Two things I’ve seen defenders of leaders so-called such as Houghton use are 1). “Touch not the Lord’s anointed” and 2). “But what of David? Have you no forgiveness?”
1). “Touch not the Lord’s anointed” – Referred to King Saul and David’s desire not to leap ahead of God’s plan to do whatever He wished with Saul. Remember, the Lord told the Israelites NOT to seek a king, warned them about how said king would enslave them and send their sons off to deadly wars, which is essentially what Saul did. Saul was not a follower of the Lord, he was eventually killed in battle and rejected by the Lord.
So if supporters of abusive, self centered leaders who lead the people in sin want to compare their leaders to one who was not part of the Lord’s best plan, one whom the Lord warned the people about, one who would enslave the people and kill off their young men, eventually being rejected by the Lord and killed off, then I suppose the supporters may have, in their biblical ignorance, unwittingly swerved into more truth than they intended.
2). “But what of David?” Yes, it’ true that on one hand David slept with Bathsheba and killed off her husband and on the other was called by the Lord “A man after My Own heart.” But it’s also true that after David sinned so glaringly calamity came upon him and the “sword never left his house”: he was publicly called out by the Prophet Nathan in the strongest terms, such that we still cluck our tongues at it 3,000 years later, the death of his infant son, the rape of daughter Tamar by son Amnon, the violent death of Amnon at the hands of his brother Absalom, the rebellion of Absalom against David, cowering in exile, humiliation, his concubines publicly slept with by Absalom and more humiliation, the violent death of Absalom, the execution of son Adonijah, and on and on. He died bitter, calling upon his offspring to execute several.
So if supporters want to point to David as an example of a godly leader who publicly sinned and was forgiven and then snarl at detractors who call their leaders to task, asking them if they even understand the meaning of “forgiveness”, I wonder if they understand the meaning of forgiveness and if they’d be willing to have their heroes put through what David endured for the remainder of his life after he’d sinned? The answer, of course, is “No”, because they care nothing about the Bible, they only misuse it to prop up their idols.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I just had to post because I heard something on the radio on the way home that made me almost bang my head against the steering wheel. I was listening to the gospel music station, and they played a clip of Israel Houghton and his new wife singing together, and the announcers said that this is their favorite couple. (Head bang!)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Shauna posted on the Open Discussion thread that she does not have funds to provide a Christmas for her son Billy. (He is the minor who was abused by a church member and Dee covered the tragic story and how the church mishandled it.)
https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
If anyone could help out, including for presents, give cards for places like WalMart, etc.
they have some very tangible needs right now. Including the basics for living life.
Thank you.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The church sure does worship its worship leaders, music ministers, and those above us with some sort of man-made title.
Try talking about your faith in Jesus and what you are learning from the Bible and the Holy Ghost illuminates truth to you, and the response from the church attendee goes something like this:
“eye ball rolling, sneers, jeers, laughing, shaking the head back and forth, and a few words like, “What are you, some sick-o jesus freak or something?”
And then we are told to buy Joel Osteen’s “Your Best Life Now” and Houghton’s CD companion pieces for Christmas to effectively worship our KING Jesus.
Jesus, please come and overturn the tables in the synagogues….Please, please, PLEASE.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Former CLCer wrote:
If you raise your window and listen closely, you will hear Wartburgers across the country banging their heads with you!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Former CLCer wrote:
Even Pastor Visionary gives him a lap dance!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Let he who has no sin cast the first stone…” I’m glad God is NOT like so many of you.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dianna
I assume, then, that you never correct any sin in your children. I bet you would allow people in your church to have adulterous relationships since “you do not cast stones.” I bet you wouldn’t even mind a child molester since you wouldn’t want to offfend him but stopping his sinful behavior. You go to quite a church, then.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The issue highlights the bareness and conceitedness of the American gospel movement. The lack sight and standards. We are more pagan than the pagans. We full hell from the church pew and pulpit. The churches have plenty people and money but no God. Israel and Stephen represent cold callous religion not Jesus Christ.