Ken Ham and His Employment Contract: Kentucky Is Not Amused

“Civilization transformed man from a food gatherer to a gatherer of pieces of paper: diplomas, employment contracts, money, etc.” ― Mokokoma Mokhonoana link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=76258&picture=vintage-noahs-ark-illustrationNoah's Ark

Post 2

This past week I have been trying to concentrate as my roof gets replaced. I found a real nice group of people to do the work and they have made it as pleasant an experience as possible. I found this group through a combination of Angie's List, word of mouth and some helpful tips from Consumer Report. As I have complimented them on their work effort, they have complimented me as being "easy to work for." Strangely enough, it has been a decent experience and I have enjoyed getting to know them. Never once did I ask them for their "Christian" credentials.

Ken Ham, however, takes employment contracts to a whole nutha level!  Frankly, I have been having a good laugh over this one. Ham is crying discrimination! The State of Kentucky is saying if "You want our money, you have to play by our rules." So, what is really going on? 

According to an article in Slate, Ken Ham's Creation Museum has experienced diminishing income in recent years. He embarked on an effort to build an exact replica of Noah's Ark and include it in an amusement park of sorts, perhaps hoping to increase traffic. He has had trouble raising funds to build the park and has downsized his original plans.

Tax Incentives from the state of Kentucky

According to Slate, the trouble began when Ham accepted tax breaks from Kentucky.

Earlier this year, Kentucky’s Tourism Development Finance Authority gave preliminary support for $18.25 million in tax credits for Ark Encounter, citing Ham’s promise that the project would create 600 to 700 jobs. And that’s just for the first phase of construction; ultimately, the state could grant Ark Encounter up to $73 million in tax breaks.

According to the Daily Kos:

Besides the 510-foot replica of Noah's Ark, the Ark Encounter project is unique in that it has received: "preliminary approval for $18 million in state tax incentives to offset the cost of the park's construction; a 75 percent property tax break over 30 years from the City of Williamstown (a town of about 3,000 near where the park will be located); an $11-million road upgrade in a rural area that would almost exclusively facilitate traffic going to and from the park; a $200,000 gift from the Grant County Industrial Development Authority to make sure the project stays in that county; 100 acres of reduced-price land and, finally $62 million municipal bond issue from Williamstown that Ham claims has kept the project from sinking,"

Ham's alleged employment contract

Then Ken Ham's employment contract got leaked. Here is the purported list of Ham's requirements for anyone who steps foot on location to work on the project. This includes volunteers.

Slate, calling it a "four part theological declaration," says it includes:

  • they have to believe in Christ,
  • the Holy Spirit,
  • Satan (as “the personal spiritual adversary of both God and mankind”),
  • Adam and Eve,
  • “the Great Flood of Genesis,”
  • a 6,000-year-old Earth,
  • the eternal damnation of “those who do not believe in Christ.”
  • All employees must follow “the duty of Christians” and attend “a local Bible believing church.” 
  • They must oppose: abortion, euthanasia, gay rights, and trans rights.

The Daily Kos article noted a few more requirements that were posted, and then allegedly removed, from the Answers in Genesis website.

"Per the required Statement of Faith, an applicant must profess, interalia, that

  • homosexuality is a sin on par with bestiality and incest,
  • the bible is literally true in order to be considered for the job,

The New Civil Rights Movement blog elaborated on the requirements

But job postings at Answers in Genesis include this statement: "All job applicants for the non-profit ministry of AiG/Creation Museum need to supply a written statement of their testimony, a statement of what they believe regarding creation, and a statement that they have read and can support the AiG Statement of Faith."

The AiG Statement of Faith claims "it is imperative that all persons employed by the ministry in any capacity, or who serve as volunteers, should abide by and agree to our Statement of Faith, to include the statement on marriage and sexuality, and conduct themselves accordingly."

It also requires all employees to believe and support "the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ as Sovereign, Creator, Redeemer, and Judge," and the "66 books of the Bible are the written Word of God. The Bible is divinely inspired and inerrant throughout. Its assertions are factually true in all the original autographs. It is the supreme authority in everything it teaches. Its authority is not limited to spiritual, religious, or redemptive themes but includes its assertions in such fields as history and science."

And that's just for starters.

They added

Over at Slate, Mark Joseph Stern writes that Ham is "surprisingly bad at his job," while calling him a "professional charlatan" who "began selling junk bonds" to keep the Ark project afloat.

Kentucky halted funding upon learning of the AiG employment rules.

According to above Slate article:

Wisely, the Kentucky Tourism, Arts and Heritage Cabinet, which oversees the dispersal of tax incentives, halted its funding after it saw Ark Encounter’s employment application. Bob Stewart, secretary of the cabinet, wrote to Ham that “the Commonwealth does not provide incentives to any company that discriminates on the basis of religion and we will not make any exception for Ark Encounter, LLC.” Before funding could proceed, Stewart explained, “the Commonwealth must have the express written assurance from Ark Encounter, LLC that it will not discriminate in any way on the basis of religion in hiring.”

Ken Ham and Ark Encounter give what appears to be conflicting statements.

According to the above linked Slate article:

Mike Zovath, Ark Encounter’s executive director, told reporters that Kentucky was “requiring us to give up our religious freedom and our religious rights,” and denied the validity of the state’s concerns. Given that the tax credits are still subject to final approval—and that approval is contingent upon Ark Encounter not breaking the law—one might expect Ham and his cohorts to simply comply with the state constitution. But they seem committed to the belief that their religious freedom gives them a right to take state funds with one hand and push away non-Christians with the other. 

Then Ark Encounter (the name of Ham's enterprise) appears to reverse direction. According to an Ark Encounter attorney, it was all a big misunderstanding. He claims that the "requirements" were only for Answers in Genesis employees but the state of Kentucky does not seemed convinced, according to the Courier-Journal.

James Parsons, a Covington attorney representing Ark Encounter, responded to Stewart saying that the job posting that triggered Stewart's concern was not for Ark Encounter, but Answers in Genesis.

Parsons wrote that Ark Encounter stands by its longstanding commitment to "comply with all applicable federal and state laws" on hiring and said that Stewart was adding a new requirement to Ark Encounter's application for tax incentives.

Not so, Stewart replied Sept. 4. "The Commonwealth does not provide incentives to any company that discriminates on the basis of religion and we will not make any exception for Ark Encounter, LLC…" Stewart wrote. "The Commonwealth must have the express written assurance from Ark Encounter, LLC that it will not discriminate in any way on the basis of religion in hiring."

However, a recent job posting appears to contradict Parsons' contention. (No relation to Dee-promise)

However, a current job posting on AiG seeks an “IT Solutions Developer” with exactly the same requirements.

ITEMS NEEDED FOR POSSIBLE EMPLOYMENT
• Resume
• Salary Requirements
• How you found out about this position
• Salvation testimony
• Creation belief statement
• Confirmation of your agreement with the AiG Statement of Faith

In the same article, Ham claims:

… that AiG is well within its rights to demand such requirements because the tax incentives that Kentucky is granting do not apply to the building of the project, just to the sales tax after the park is open. He argues that they are not hiring for the open park yet, not even close.

“The tax rebate incentive only applies to a percentage of sales tax generated within the park after it’s opened and if and when it meets certain guidelines … we are [not] using a tax incentive to build the Ark … the tax incentive is a rebate after the project is built and operational.”

Once again, it appears to this observer that Ham is talking out of both sides of his mouth. Finally, according to Mike Tuttle

Ham is correct that the tax incentives are not, technically, the same as “using a tax incentive to build the Ark.” But to get his incentives after the Project is open, he may have made a deal with the Devil.

My prediction: This park is in big trouble financially. Ham is strapped financially so he will decide to play by Kentucky's rules. If he does, my friend who claims that Ham is all about the money, will be proven correct. So far it appears that no celebrity Christians, like those SBTS, have come to Ham's defense. Could it be that even they think these requirements are difficult to defend?

Lydia's Corner: Genesis 8:1-10:32 Matthew 4:12-25 Psalm 4:1-8 Proverbs 1:20-23

Comments

Ken Ham and His Employment Contract: Kentucky Is Not Amused — 81 Comments

  1. Dee, thanks for this one. I believe there is a lot of dirty AIG laundry that needs to be aired out. I’ve commented before that an in depth look at AIG’s finances would be very helpful. This is a nice start. Thanks again.

  2. I’m trying to wrap my head around an amusement park with a theme which comes from the biggest earthly judgment in the Bible. The story of Noah and the Ark is not a happy children’s story with cute animals.

    The other thing is that if you want to take the money from the State, then you need to live by the rules of the State. I think there is a rationale for exempting churches from taxation, but amusement parks?

  3. I was a fundamentalist when I was exposed to Ken Ham, and despite my then-current outlook, I immediately rejected him as a liar and fraud. Why? I had an education that included real science, as well as rhetoric and logic. His “performance” was full of absurdities such as the following: “What would one expect to find if there was a global flood? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers, laid down by water, all over the earth. And what have scientists found? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers, laid down by water, all over the earth.” When I heard this I actually snorted while trying not to laugh out loud, earning me a deep frown from the person to my left. Because that simple statement is a formal fallacy known as affirming the consequent, and also skips the fact that there isn’t a single fossil of a modern animal, that there are all kinds of rock layers, and that the fossils and geological strata are not sorted by mass, as would be expected in a large flood. Even back then I considered him a liar who preyed on ignorance and peddled nonsense to make money. As for the ark attraction…don’t even get me started.

  4. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Even back then I considered him a liar who preyed on ignorance and peddled nonsense to make money. As for the ark attraction…don’t even get me started.

    My good friend and you should do dinner. He is on your page.

  5. Has Ham actually hollered persecution yet? There are many conservative Evangelicals in my area who will most certainly holler ‘persecution’.

  6. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    “What would one expect to find …”

    That reminds me of another “affirming the consequent” fallacy, Dr. F. Have you heard the one that claims the reason the earth appears to be so old is because when God created it he made it fully mature, just like Jesus turned the water into fully mature wine? It’s not that God couldn’t have done things that way, of course, but there is not a shred of Biblical support for him doing so. Surmises and what-ifs are not evidence.

  7. There is a lot of criticism in recent threads here of men whose first name happens to be ‘Ken’. I’m starting to get worried …

  8. Ken wrote:

    There is a lot of criticism in recent threads here of men whose first name happens to be ‘Ken’. I’m starting to get worried …

    That’s another reason I use my handle.

  9. Tim wrote:

    That reminds me of another “affirming the consequent” fallacy, Dr. F. Have you heard the one that claims the reason the earth appears to be so old is because when God created it he made it fully mature, just like Jesus turned the water into fully mature wine?

    It’s called “The Omphalos Hypothesis” after the Greek word for belly-button.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis
    First proposed in 1857 (just before the Darwin dust-up) by Victorian Naturalist “Philip Henry Gosse”, who promptly got piled on from all sides.

  10. @ Gram3:
    Tim wrote:

    That reminds me of another “affirming the consequent” fallacy, Dr. F. Have you heard the one that claims the reason the earth appears to be so old is because when God created it he made it fully mature,

    And TRUE CHRISTIANS apparently have no problem with a god who lied from the get-go?

  11. nmgirl wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    Tim wrote:
    That reminds me of another “affirming the consequent” fallacy, Dr. F. Have you heard the one that claims the reason the earth appears to be so old is because when God created it he made it fully mature,
    And TRUE CHRISTIANS apparently have no problem with a god who lied from the get-go?

    Did I miss something? Not seeing the connection between my comment about pro formas and logic. I can assure you logic is not necessary in the preparation of financial pro formas. Magical thinking is very helpful, however. 😉

  12. Gram3 wrote:

    I’m trying to wrap my head around an amusement park with a theme which comes from the biggest earthly judgment in the Bible.

    That’s a really good point. (Scratching my head here, as well….)

  13. oldJohnJ wrote:

    I believe there is a lot of dirty AIG laundry that needs to be aired out. I’ve commented before that an in depth look at AIG’s finances would be very helpful.

    I think you’re right. Ham has for a very long time impressed me as a guy whose purpose in life is $$$$$$$$$.

  14. He took state funding and subsidies and thinks that state and federal employment laws do not apply to him. That is typical fundithink ™

  15. @Brian: You said it.

    As to why this story, of all possible stories, for a Bible-themed amusement park: I can think of a few plausible reasons. There are the animals; people will pay money to see animals. There’s the big boat, which has the kind of “Look, we did a thing!” quality that gets people off the highway. There are all of the lovely numbers that just make the whole thing seem so literally perfectly factual. And there’s the endless fundamentalist tendency to assume that telling a story about a thing is the same as proving that it’s true. (See also: _Left Behind._)

  16. Jenny I think the entire left behind industry is really rather sad and in some ways extremely dangerous as people think we should set public police and foreign policy based on one fringe view of Revelatory knowledge that lacks consistency among even believers which I count myself as one.

  17. Ken wrote:

    There is a lot of criticism in recent threads here of men whose first name happens to be ‘Ken’. I’m starting to get worried …

    I used to distinguish between Flag Ken and No Flag Ken, but abandoned this because

    a) Flag Ken’s German flag (like my own Union Flag) does not reliably appear, and
    b) Apparently there are four Kens, not two.

    The whole thing is beyond our ken, frankly.

  18. brian wrote:

    in some ways extremely dangerous as people think we should set public police and foreign policy based on one fringe view of Revelatory knowledge that lacks consistency among even believers

    Are you ever reading my mind! Back in the days when I believed that stuff, i found myself moving in a Zionist direction. However, as I got smarter, an incident occurred that changed my thinking. I had a friend who became a Christian. She was married to a Muslim who began to show great interest in Christianity. One day, he asked me why God hated the Palestinians and loved the Jews.

    That day my views changed. i told him that the Jews were merely the tablet on which God wrote His story about mankind. God cares for all of His creation equally and loves the Palestinians as much as the Jews. He eventually became a Christian and often lectures on this very topic.

    I am now amillenial and do not believe in a pre-Tribulation rapture. I think it is going to be far more complex then writers of half baked novels can imagine.

    Although, true confession-I read the entire Left behind series. I really wanted to see how LaHaye interpreted things in the Bible. I particularly like the locusts with the human faces. At that point, I knew literalism had reached its zenith.

  19. Ken wrote:

    There is a lot of criticism in recent threads here of men whose first name happens to be ‘Ken’. I’m starting to get worried

    if you think it is evident here, you should see behind the scenes. We have had Kens who needed to be moderated due to some rather vehement opinion. My mistake: besides putting other info into moderation, I also put the name “Ken” into moderation. Do you know how many different Kens comment here? Wrong move. Now, nice Kens should find there comments being posted more promptly.

    Just this week, i have deleted the name Ken from moderation and will stick to the IP to catch the ones that are concerning.

  20. Wouldn’t surprise me that the project is floundering financially. The demographic that buys into YEC and ID is simultaneously aging and shrinking. Money is going to be increasingly difficult to generate.

  21. Picking up on the Left Behind comments–

    I am not sitting on the rooftop waiting for Jesus to appear or for myself to disappear. That idea did not and is not something to require roof top sitting.

    Albert Schweitzer dropped a bomb with The Quest of the Historical Jesus in which he noted Jesus as part of the late jewish apocalyptic movement (like John the baptist) and the birth of christianity within that movement and that thinking. Then, of course, things did not play out as they expected it to, so some sort of other thinking had to be worked out. Schweitzer noted that every generation hopes to be the generation of the prophecies and promises. So far it has not come to pass.

    This is a difficult area for consideration. In particularly difficult times, of course, escape routes can be very appealing, and maybe even help people cope. One problem, if people are set on taking the bible literally, is that some of what Jesus said was evidently meant to be understood literally, but just did not happen that way. IMO it is not possible to worship at the altar of literalism without having to get into contortions of thinking that are beyond my capacity to think like that, especially in this area.

  22. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    and the word “Ark” means “Box”.

    Didn’t you know, the “ark of the covenant” was actually a small golden model of an Egyptian sailing vessel…

  23. I always find it amusing when Fundy Christian organizations try to take funds from the government that they condemn so openly, and then cry “persecution” when they get caught for taking money in a dishonest way. There is a reason for the separation of church and state, and it is a good one. I worked for almost decade for a local Christian organization in my area that never took government funds. It kept them free of political entanglement, and also allowed them to hire who fit their requirements (no where near as onerous as Ham’s, by the way). People on all sides of the spectrum appreciate them, and donate freely knowing that it is a true, no-strings-attached, organization that serves whoever comes through its doors.

  24. dee wrote:

    Although, true confession-I read the entire Left behind series. I really wanted to see how LaHaye interpreted things in the Bible. I particularly like the locusts with the human faces. At that point, I knew literalism had reached its zenith.

    I thought the zenith of literalism was the Plague of Demon Locusts being helicopter gunships armed with chemical weapons and piloted by long-haired bearded Hippies. (Hal Lindsay, Late Great Planet Earth, directly from SCRIPTURE(TM)!)

    And then there was the Giant Rubber Scorpion Stinger scene from that Thief in the Night sequel, which is still my type example of Bad Z-Movie Scene staging.

  25. dee wrote:

    Do you know how many different Kens comment here?

    Again, do what I did and use a unique handle.

  26. I think there’s some shady dealings going on with the Ark Park. Ham wants it to be a for-profit operation because in that way he can get the state monies. On the other hand, he wants it under the umbrella of the non-profit religious organization known as the Creation Museum so that he can impose certain (IMHO illegal for a for-profit business) religious tests for his employees. I believe there are people who are trying to tease out the legal statuses of the various organizations (and I think there’s a third one involved as well).

    What gets me is that Ham’s belief requirements would cut out a lot of people who claim to be Christians but who are either old earth creationists or believe in some form of evolution (e.g., the Pope, but we won’t see him selling hot dogs in Kentucky). But I think that’s the point. Ham really does believe that if you don’t believe in seven days young earth creationism, you are not a true believer in Jesus and not a “true Christian.” I suspect there’s a lot of distancing between Ham and others who might be otherwise sympathetic because they don’t want to open up this No. 10 can of worms. Because, remember, Ham thinks old earth creationists are just as wrong as evolutionists. And that could cause a real civil war among evangelicals.

    I’ll be surprised if the Ark Park actually opens.

  27. In – to quote Nick Bulbeck – other news:
    I’m just back from kneading the dough for wholemeal dinkel wheat bread with my 18yo daughter. Now the dough’s resting. Will have to knead once more and then bake it. Will be delicious for breakfast tomorrow (it’s now 7:30 in central Europe)..

  28. If that is the same Bob Stewart at Tourism I did a training project with years ago, he was nothing but a fair and honorable man to work with.

    I thought he retired but it is not unusual for them to come back with a new administration.

    Just to give another perspective about the Creation Museum: when the museum was in the process of being built I found myself at a luncheon next to a conference speaker from Chicago who specialized in building museum displays. I asked him if they had plans to work with the Creation Museum. He said no because they don’t pay their bills. I didn’t have to ask how he knew that.

    I, for one, am seriously sick of this entitlement mentality from so many Christian venues. it is an embarrassment to us all.

  29. Evolution is very controversial among evangelicals and other conservative Christians. It is so controversial I have come to view it as a non essential issue. I just believe God is involved in creation and an ongoing creation. Sure there is science behind everything, but we never seem to get to the bottom of anything. Case in point is modern theoretical physics where so much is undecided. Theoretical physicists are still deciphering matter and energy and a unified field theory that harmonizes quantum physics with the theory of relativity. Strive as much as we can we will never get to the bottom of what is the rationale for the human conscience, nor the essence of love, much less what is unknown in this beautiful universe. I would like to think that the great unknown is one of the empiric evidences there is a God. Where else can I of others turn with the numerous mysteries humans encounter in our day to day earthly existence?

  30. @ dee:
    I assume you took my comment about being worried at being a Ken to be tongue-in-cheek, but there do seem to be a lot of dodgy Kens around. In the state of Ken-tucky as well …

  31. It’s like government money comes with strings or something. If he’d been paying attention, Ham would have known that. As it is, he doesn’t seem to enjoy sleeping in that bed he made for himself.

    Doesn’t sound to me like Ark Park will ever open.

  32. Why… not… hire ANYBODY who is qualified, and show them through close daily contact how awesome and wonderful and kind and generous Christians can be, and maybe have a chance to witness to them…?

    Well. This is not a man whose strong suit is logic, as others have pointed out.

  33. roebuck wrote:

    Maybe I should start posting as Headless Unicorn Guy, just to liven things up.

    No need; just go with your current avatar pic and be “Hornless Unicorn Guy”.

    Not trying to stir contention, but you’d still be one step nearer to being an actual unicorn than HUG is currently.

  34. Gus wrote:

    In – to quote Nick Bulbeck – other news:
    I’m just back from kneading the dough for wholemeal dinkel wheat bread with my 18yo daughter. Now the dough’s resting. Will have to knead once more and then bake it. Will be delicious for breakfast tomorrow (it’s now 7:30 in central Europe)..

    By a remarkable co-incidence, I am about to make tonight’s pizza-dough. Then I have to go and get a replacement light-fitting to replace the damaged one in the kitchen.

    I hope this is helpful.

  35. Jennifer wrote:

    Why… not… hire ANYBODY who is qualified, and show them through close daily contact how awesome and wonderful and kind and generous Christians can be, and maybe have a chance to witness to them…?

    Zealots are unable to do such a thing. Their way must always be promoted. Ham has few supporters out there. Even the majority of Christians are not on his side when it comes to the whole of this theology.

    He must batten down the hatches to protect himself from the world. Make no mistake about this. He is protecting himself and his ideology from attack by the heathens. He is not as interested in people coming to Jesus as he is people coming to a belief in six day creation.

    Proof: he states his fight is not about six day creation but about a denial of the doctrine of the atonement. That’s right. He ties his beliefs into the atonement which, of course, is at the core of the faith.

    He does what every other ho hum theologian wannabe does. Make his peculiar doctrine a gospel™ issue. If you do not buy his theology, well, you may be teetering on damnation. He denies this but Ham is known for playing games with his words.

    https://answersingenesis.org/why-does-creation-matter/a-young-earth-its-not-the-issue/

  36. Lydia wrote:

    I found myself at a luncheon next to a conference speaker from Chicago who specialized in building museum displays. I asked him if they had plans to work with the Creation Museum. He said no because they don’t pay their bills. I didn’t have to ask how he knew that.

    One of the staffers over at Internet Monk used to work for some sort of news advertisting. He said any client who identified themselves as Christian(TM) it was Cash Up Front, No Exceptions. From experience with born-again burn jobs, they’d extend credit to a crackhead before they would a Christian(TM) — less chance of getting burned.

  37. Linn wrote:

    I always find it amusing when Fundy Christian organizations try to take funds from the government that they condemn so openly, and then cry “persecution” when they get caught for taking money in a dishonest way.

    Ayn Rand, self-described “Only Truly Rational Mind That Has Ever Existed”, was on Social Security and Medicare in her later years. And had a Truly Rational Objectivist justification for Taking instead of Making.

  38. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    One of the staffers over at Internet Monk used to work for some sort of news advertisting. He said any client who identified themselves as Christian(TM) it was Cash Up Front, No Exceptions. From experience with born-again burn jobs, they’d extend credit to a crackhead before they would a Christian(TM) — less chance of getting burned.

    I’m hoping they have the same thing in place for Scientologists. Because one of L. Ron Hubtoad’s dictums to his people was to basically put off paying bills. And they follow that one to the letter.

  39. @ mirele:
    My Grandfather, who is Armenian Apostolic, used to say, “Never do business with Christians.” Sad.

  40. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    @ mirele:
    My Grandfather, who is Armenian Apostolic, used to say, “Never do business with Christians.” Sad.

    Sadly, I agree. Most of the so-called ‘Christian’ investment advisors have turned out to be scam artists. Call me cynical, but businesses that advertise themselves as being ‘Christian’ seem to doing so only in an attempt to attract trusting sheep to take advantage of.

  41.   __

    Does this 501(c)3 Noah wannabe’s suitability for future “Ark” employment require the ‘applicant’ to demonstrate ‘the’ proper medical procedure as well?

  42. dee wrote:

    Bizarre John Piper tweet.
    “Do you want a face shining light like an angel, irresistible wisdom, fullnes of grace and power? Prepare to die. Stephen”

    These days, when are He of the Fluttering Hands’ tweets NOT bizarre?

    (Why do you think they call them “Twits”?)

  43. @ dee:
    The problem is that what Piper seems to want us to die to are moderate theology, good sense, both sexes using the gifts God gave them, enjoyment in life….I could go on.

  44. mirele wrote:

    Ham really does believe that if you don’t believe in seven days young earth creationism, you are not a true believer in Jesus and not a “true Christian.” I suspect there’s a lot of distancing between Ham and others who might be otherwise sympathetic because they don’t want to open up this No. 10 can of worms. Because, remember, Ham thinks old earth creationists are just as wrong as evolutionists.

    The attacks on old earth creationists (like myslef) sometimes seem to take precedent over anything else for KH. When a fine Christian gentleman like Hugh Ross is dismissed as a “compromiser”, it raises my blood pressure.

  45. Mark wrote:

    Evolution is very controversial among evangelicals and other conservative Christians. It is so controversial I have come to view it as a non essential issue. I just believe God is involved in creation and an ongoing creation.

    Amen.

  46. John Piper really needs to seek professional mental health, he really has some rather profound issues.

  47. zooey111 wrote:

    When a fine Christian gentleman like Hugh Ross is dismissed as a “compromiser”, it raises my blood pressure.

    There is no view of Gen 1 and creation that doesn’t have its problems. I read some Hugh Ross a while back, and what struck me more than the argumentation for his particular view was his attitude – could we all at least agree to disagree amicably on this issue. It was refreshing to say the least of it.

  48. dee wrote:

    I particularly like the locusts with the human faces.

    I always think of teenage boys at my dinner table. Way too many similarities to be coincidence, imo… 🙂

  49. zooey111 wrote:

    The attacks on old earth creationists (like myslef) sometimes seem to take precedent over anything else for KH.

    Wait until A.W.Pink Syndrome kicks in. As entropy sets in over time, EVERYONE except KH is a Compromiser, Apostate, and Heretic. “DIE, HERETIC!!!!!”

  50. brian wrote:

    John Piper really needs to seek professional mental health, he really has some rather profound issues.

    Maybe. Or maybe he is just a really, really poor communicator. After all his “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” approach to the story of St. Stephen is almost infantile in its lack of logic or persuasive ability. I have actually seen this a lot in fundamentalism growing up. Most of what is communicated is mindless, emotional drivel designed to pump up the base, instead of any kind of meaningful exhortation. I hate to think of Piper going down this road, but it remains a distinct possibility.

  51. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Wait until A.W.Pink Syndrome kicks in.

    Never had much to do with A.W. Pink, but the name did pique my interest a little because I was given a short book of his years ago (cannae mind which one) in which the forward eulogising him as the spiritual titan who single-handedly made the 20th century possible was nearly as long as the book itself.

    His wikipedia entry (wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Pink) has, apparently, “multiple issues”. Of which the first is that its neutrality is disputed. But I find it interesting how little time he seems to’ve spent in any one place.

  52. Do you want…irresistible wisdom

    I know he probably intended that you want these things to do good, but the initial reading in my head was closer to “I want to be wise so everyone will come to me for advice, and when I dispense my wisdom all over them they will not be able to resist!”

    Piper seems to be pretty bad at tweeting. I didn’t enjoy any of his other writing either, which seemed to be very emo, unnecessarily poetic/flowery, and unclear. Don’t Waste Your Life probably could have been cut to about 30-50 pages from the 300 or so that it was.

  53.   __

    Is Pastor Piper in a Tweeted Pickle because he hasn’t been ‘sainted’ into da neo-cal hall of fame yet? [1]

    Or is it that he thought he saw the 501(c)3 heavens open, and Driscoll was seated upon [his] ‘reserved’ throne?

    🙂

    __
    Notez: [1] John Piper’s tweet? Can any of you figure it out? -Dee
    “Do you want a face shining light like an angel, irresistible wisdom, fullnes of grace and power? Prepare to die. Stephen”
    https://twitter.com/johnpiper/status/528592662920986624

  54. Re: Piper’s problem with verbiage, I have now an ethical problem. A bit back I bought a wee bit of his writings since I did not know anything about him while the rest of you all seemed to be informed in this matter. I have read all I am going to read, and now need to dispose of the literature. Here is the problem. Should I throw it in the trash or give it to Goodwill? If I give it to Goodwill somebody might read it and sustain intellectual damage, but on the other hand that might be somebody who otherwise would have bought the book new thus throwing money into the “evil empire” and besides Goodwill can use the minimal amount they sell books for. So, is it right to do wrong (rob Goodwill of a little help–sin of omission perhaps) in order to do good (divert misguided but not really evil writings to the garbage?)

    And while we are at it, now that I have survived some pages from the pen of the great one, there, I want to say that I agree with all of you who warned me about him. I do get the impression that he may mean well, but I do not think he is the bright light on the christmas tree. I did not say “brightest” but rather scaled it back to “bright” and still rejected that descriptor. When I was a kid my parents use to eat a breakfast dish called brains and eggs. That would be real brains (pig I suppose) scrambled with eggs. The idea of scrambled brains reminds me of that.

  55. Nancy wrote:

    That would be real brains (pig I suppose) scrambled with eggs. The idea of scrambled brains reminds me of that.

    Well, as they say, “The chicken is involved, but the pig is committed.” David Platt & Paul Washer are, I believe, disciples of John Piper. His tweet reminds me of their call to radical obedience, to the point of death. I believe that they all get this from their warped theology. Funny how they call on others to die while they sit snugly in their compounds tweeting and blogging and preparing the next sermon calling on the lazy Christians to go out and die for the cause. Funny how they are not on the front lines dying. I wonder if they ever read their Bible…

  56. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Never had much to do with A.W. Pink, but the name did pique my interest a little because I was given a short book of his years ago (cannae mind which one) in which the forward eulogising him as the spiritual titan who single-handedly made the 20th century possible was nearly as long as the book itself.

    I first heard of him many years ago at Internet Monk, as a type example of someone who’d reached the theoretical ultimate end state of Protestantism, the One True Church with Exactly One Member, denouncing all others as Heretics and Apostates. According to IMonk, he was from the Reformed (i.e. Calvinist) tradition and had Parsed His Theology So Perfectly that all others were Heretics. He ended up worshipping completely alone each Sunday, alone with his Utterly Correct Theology.

  57. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I have actually seen this a lot in fundamentalism growing up. Most of what is communicated is mindless, emotional drivel designed to pump up the base, instead of any kind of meaningful exhortation.

    Sometimes to the level of the Duffer Monopods’ profundity in Voyage of the Dawn Treader.

  58. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    zooey111 wrote:
    The attacks on old earth creationists (like myslef) sometimes seem to take precedent over anything else for KH.
    Wait until A.W.Pink Syndrome kicks in. As entropy sets in over time, EVERYONE except KH is a Compromiser, Apostate, and Heretic. “DIE, HERETIC!!!!!”

    An old earth creationist was WB Riley who was far from a liberal. Riley believed in an age gap to reconcile the age of the earth with the Genesis account.

  59. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    If you use anchovies, you are a heathen.

    Or an otter.

    I can tell you with all honesty, that I have never eaten a pizza with an otter on it.
    I have, however, shared a pizza with one of my cats. (She ate the sausage & pepperoni off it).

  60. zooey111 wrote:

    I have, however, shared a pizza with one of my cats. (She ate the sausage & pepperoni off it).

    Remind me when I visit not to have the pizza if it looks like it used to have sausage and pepperoni on it …

  61. That is what we need more of. More taxpayer-funded projects that won’t help the taxpayer but will boost someone’s ego and prestige. Bridge to nowhere, meet ark to nowhere.