"If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter." -George Washington link
The above picture is the reason that I am writing this post. I have reason to believe that there are plenty more pastors like the ones featured who have used their ministry to fulfill their desires for wealth and control. Then there are some who just focus on control. Wealth and power are two issues that haunt today's churches.This blog has featured story after story of people hurt by churches which play Russian Roulette with power and money.
I recognize that there are wonderful churches and pastors which do not misuse either money or power. Those are not the churches to which I am referring.
Does the local church really hold the keys?
Last week, I wrote Jonathan Leeman/Mark Dever: The Keys Are the Key to Understanding Their Words. Please go to the post to read the context but here are the points they made.
….The church, meaning a local church, holds the keys to excommunication, remove someone from membership, receive people into membership, pick pastors and adopt a statement of faith.
…Then we learn that another key to the kingdom is teaching and oversight (another loaded term) which is found in the elders.
…The church gets to decide who is a true confessor of the faith and who is a "citizen of the kingdom of heaven."
…Baptism and the Lord's Supper are the means by which the church controls the membership. If they say you are not in, you cannot be baptized or take the Lord's Supper.
…9Marks in a post called Regulative Jazz says that the local church gets to decide what the gospel is and who is a gospel citizen.
But, they said something else that is most interesting.
But finally the keys belong to the entire congregation. No text in the New Testament explicitly links the oversight of the elders with the keys of the kingdom in the manner that Matthew 18 so clearly links the keys with the whole assembly. Elder authority is real, but it is a different kind of authority than congregational authority.
I agree with them but not in the manner that they expect.
You, nonleader sheep, hold the keys to their money and their power and it is time to exercise those keys.
Think about it. What would a church leadership do if the sheep stopped giving them money and stopped attending their churches? It is time that the sheep realize that they have been conned into thinking that they are dependent on the pastors. In fact, it is the other way around. The pastors are dependent on the cooperation of the sheep.
One year ago, I wrote a post Steven Furtick Proves That It Is Time to Stop Giving to the Local Church. In this post, I suggested that it is time for church members to stop giving to their church if certain criteria are present. At the end of this post, I have reprinted most of that post. This time, remove Furtick's name and substitute Driscoll's or you favorite megapastor's name. See if the shoe fits.
That post generated a fair amount of angry emails from pastors and wannabes, appalled that I would suggest that people stop giving to their church. I have thought long and hard about those responses and have come to the conclusion that the reason they are so upset is because I have found their Achilles Heel. The church needs the sheep in order to function. Authoritarian pastors have nothing if the sheep do not kowtow to their pronouncements. That is why they spend so much time conning the sheep into thinking that they need controlling church leadership. They don't want you to know that they need you/us as much or more than you/we need them.
Folks, it is a two way street and its time to call their bluff. If the people sitting in the pews at Mars Hill just stopped giving one day, the church would have crashed and perhaps the next time around Driscoll might have been sweeter to the sheep. The only way to deal with a controlling bully is to call his bluff. You can take your money and go home.
Your rights in church membership
1. You have the right to ask your church, of which you are a member, how much your pastor is making: salary, benefits, perks, time off, etc. Corollary-find out the expected number of hours per week your pastor works and his amount of vacation and conference time.
You will learn much by their response. Do not feel uncomfortable asking this question. Heck, we know how much we pay the President of the United States. Why shouldn't we know how much we pay our pastors? If they do not calmly provide you with the number, you have a problem. This is an indication that there are other issues with control at the church. Why should you give your hard earned money to a church that will not tell you exactly how much they are spending on their pastors?
Do you know what the average salary is in your congregation? Where do your pastors fit into that paradigm? Are they living better than most people in your congregation? If they are, why? Also, go see where you pastor lives. Does he live in an expensive house? Does he fly first class on your dime? What kind of cars does he drive? Does he get a clothing allowance? Does he spend lots of money on his clothes? Does he call attention to his boots or his jacket so that you know how expensive they are?
Did you know that Robert Morris, in yesterday's video, expressed amazement that Driscoll preached 43 weeks per year. That's right, Driscoll, who brags he can write a sermon in 2 hours, is considered a workaholic for doing his job! How many weeks a year do you get off? How many sabbaticals do you get in your job? How many conferences do you get paid to speak at? Do you get to write books at work and keep the money from those books?
Folks, get answers to your questions.
2. You have the right to leave the church if you disagree with their theology, discipline or attitude.
In the Mars Hill situation, I read a comment by one person who said they had to be released in order to leave correctly. No, you do not! It is an abusive mechanism to prevent the church's loss of control over the life of a member. God has given you a brain and heart along with His Spirit. Make use of them.
You also have the right to leave without them having some sort of meeting to determine whether or not you are "under discipline." We have posted a letter that you can send to a church to stop them from discussing you in public. We recently received a letter from a woman who used the letter in a church with which our readers are familiar. She said it worked and they backed off! Here is a link to that post called Abusive Church Discipline: How to Recognize It and Escape
3. You have the right to be treated respectfully by your church leadership.
You are not an ATM machine, sitting quietly and spitting out money for their latest and greatest building campaign. If the church does not recognize your talents or show you concern, find one that does. The church you are in does not deserve you. Recently, a friend's daughter received a phone call from a megachurch that she left two years ago. They didn't know she was gone and wanted to know when she was going to give them money. She wasn't important to them except as an ATM machine. Do not give money to such a church! They do not deserve you.
4. You have the right to be a member of a church in which the pastor knows your name.
Recently, we had a comment written by a man who had been in his church for 3 years and had never met his pastor. I think his pastor likes it that way. He is a talking head and money maker, not a pastor. Do you want Bono or a pastor?
5. You have the right to know exactly how you money is being used and if you money is being used wisely.
You do not have to give your money to a church which hires public relation firms to boost your pastor's image. Also, in any fundraising effort, find out how much the church is paying their fundraising consultants. You do know they are going to use such companies to get you to fork over more dough, right? Find out the ratio of pastors' compensation to money being given to help the poor. Does your church spend more money on sound systems than they do on missions? If so, do you agree with them?
6. You have the right not to be manipulated.
I know of one church in which the pastor, showing people in third world countries, asked the congregation to give up moving to more expensive homes and give the money to missions. Meanwhile, that pastor got a secret raise and moved to a bigger, more expensive house during the campaign. In that church, the congregation is not allowed to know how much the pastors make.
7. You have the right to give your money to any Christian organization that you please.
They say you must give your money to the local church and the excess to wherever you like. However, look at Mars Hill. The donated money went to fancy sound systems, extravagant salaries and church credit card charges to nice restaurants. You do not have to give money to that. Instead, find a missionary, a homeless shelter, or whatever. Make sure you know the money is actually going to help someone as opposed to buying a new oriental rug for the mansion. My guess is that God would be quite pleased that you gave the money elsewhere.
8. You have the right not to trust your leadership until they have earned that trust due to complete transparency and loving behavior.
Never forget that your leadership can be just as sinful as the next guy. Do not be surprised when they demonstrate that through their actions.
9. You have the right to ask questions and to get kind and thoughtful responses from church leadership.
All questions should be on the table and there should never be retribution when you raise any sort of issue. Transparency is the key. Patience with people who have questions reveal the heart of the church leadership. If they are too busy to answer questions, your money and service should be given elsewhere.
Find some real friends
I have heard of a number of people who put up with ill-tempered, money obsessed church leadership because they don't want to lose their friends. If friends will cease interacting with you if you leave a church, they are not your friends. Period. It is time to face facts that you were part of a group that only acted nice to you because they needed your money to build things and your presence to bolster their own egos.
When I left a church, I did lose some friends. However, I kept some other friends. We all ended up a different churches but we continued our Bible study and have been together for 12 years now. These are real friends and I am blessed to have them in my life.
Give up the delusion that if you just present a Biblical argument, they will see the error of their ways and change.
If they wanted your input, they would have been open about their finances and answered your questions kindly. Do not waste a lot time in a church trying to convince them to change their ways. They won't and they will blame you for being divisive and bitter. In many instances, all you will get is abused. Your role in such church is to be an ATM, nothing more.
Sheep, exercise your keys!
It is time for the sheep to rebel and to exercise their keys of authority. Money speaks. So does your presence. Use it and do not let money driven, authority junkies control your life and your faith. Your time on this earth is short. Use it wisely. Find a church or a parachurch group in which you can serve joyfully and be at peace. It should be a place in which people know your name and are glad to see you.
Here is the post from last year.
Are you, church contributor, vaguely discontented by what your money actually supports? Do you ever wonder if your money supports anything of eternal value? If you are a member of a church with a well paid pastor, and you see any of the following, maybe you should consider giving your money elsewhere.
But shouldn't you stop attending such a church? Well, that's what I would do. However, some people have lifelong friends within a given entity. Others have a family member who really wants to keep going. Some may just like the coffee. This post is for those of you who want to stay. I am also going to assume that you give some money to the church. If you don't, good for you.
Recently, I read a story on SGM Survivors in which a family ate oatmeal for dinner in order to scrape together money to give to an SGM building campaign. This reportedly happened while SGM employees were reportedly traveling to conferences, sending their kids to private Christian schools, living in nice homes, etc. SGM was begging for money to build and grow and were telling other people to sacrifice.
I remember an article in the PDI magazine that focused on a large family who ate oatmeal every night so that they could give to PDI. They were praised for this wonderful sacrifice beyond their tithe.
I say enough of this nonsense.
Stop giving if you cannot find out your pastor's salary and compensation package.
From the Charlotte Observer we learn
(Chunks) Corbett would not divulge Furtick’s salary,
If you give money to the church, you have the right to know exactly how your money is being used. For example, we have reported on pastors who make $700,000 a year and also gets a parsonage allowance. Parsonage allowances are tax deductible which also should be figured into the total compensation package. One needs to also look at FICA, sabbaticals, conference and travel fees, etc.in order to fully understand how much money is involved. If they will not tell you, why would you give them money? Also, ask yourself, given all that you know from reading this blog, why should you "trust" them to handle all this money appropriately?
Stop giving if the church hires outside "well to do" pastors to be on a compensation committee in which the proceedings are kept secret. Also, ask if any of those people on the committee are ever given perks like paid speaking engagements, etc.
(Furtick's undisclosed salary) which is set not by a group of lay members of the church, but by a board of five out-of-town pastors. Furtick is also on the board, but doesn't’t vote on his salary, Corbett said. These out-of-town board members are friends and mentors to Furtick and, like him, lead growing megachurches. They include Perry Noble of NewSpring Church in Anderson, S.C., and Jack Graham of Prestonwood Baptist in Plano, Texas.
Can you really trust other mega church pastors, who all live well, to actually police their buddy's income? Take a look their names and try to find out how well they live. I bet that they keep their income a big, fat secret, as well. Also, besides being on a committee, see if they ask each other to speak at each other's conferences and are paid for doing so. If so, could you see how can I get involved in this cash cow? I have heard of another church which has a retention fund in order to keep the pastor when he starts threatening to go elsewhere. Such Godly behavior demands rewards.
Stop giving if the church also has to hire an attorney to do a compensation study.
This board bases Furtick’s salary, Corbett said, on a “compensation study formulated by an attorney’s office” that’s not tied to the church.
Why in the world are your precious donations going to attorneys to figure out how much to pay your pastor? You can be sure that it will not be the median of the congregation. They want more, a whole lot more. Then ask, why do they need an attorney? Attorney's are always involved in limiting liability. So, think of it this way, your donations this year may have paid for a well off attorney to up the compensation for your very wealthy pastor. What a way to give to back to God!
Stop giving if your well paid pastor lives better than most of the congregation
Drive by his house. See what kind of car he drives. See what kind of vacation he takes. Think about it.
Stop giving if your pastor won't answer the question of how much he makes while acting like a wuss by sending his "good ol' boy" friend to speak for him.
Corollary: Be suspicious of any spokesman who tries to sound like a good old boy who drives pickups (For example, they have names like Chunks or Bubba.) They are not good old boys; they just play one at church.
(Chunks) Corbett said
Stop giving when your pastor says, in a sermon, that the church is being made to look bad when it is he who is looking bad.
You may view such a cowardly act on the infamous video. You, the hard-working contributor, are supposed to take the hit for your pastor's poor judgment? He should take it on the chin like a "real man." Instead, he is hiding behind his congregation and his wife, Holly. He gets the glory for his books and fame. Holly gets tacked on when he is in trouble.
Stop giving when your money goes to more buildings, expensive equipment and well-off pastors.
Look at the church budget. Add up the salaries and administration and building debt. Look at the top of the line audiovisual system. Look at the glossy presentation materials and expensive, personalized videos. Now ask yourself a question. Do you really think your money is making a "difference" for the kingdom when you compare it to example of Jesus and His apostles?
Stop giving if your pastor, who is well paid, claims he owns intellectual rights to his sermons.
Your pastor presumably develops his sermons during his expected work week. Would Proctor and Gamble give away the rights to a new dish detergent to a researcher who was hired to do just that?
Stop giving if your well paid pastor complains he works more than 40 hours a week.
How many hours should your pastor work? Well, I have read of some pastors who make $500,000 a year, plus benefits, complaining that they have to work more than 40 hours a week. They need "family time." Most people in the real world who make that kind of money usually work far longer than 40 hours and don't whine about it.
Stop giving money if your well paid pastor writes books on church time and then gets all of the proceeds.
See my comments on intellectual rights above. Also, if he asks you to purchase his book in order to be an intern at the church, ask who gets the profits. (Thanks to a new commenter.) Ask to see it spelled out in writing.
Stop giving if your well paid pastor is double and triple dipping.
Here is how this plays out. The pastor gets a certain amount of conference time a year for which the church pays room, board and fees. In fact, Kevin DeYoung says that this is what you should do to really show you care for your pastor link.
So, your pastor could speak at the conference and be paid by the sponsors as well as being given room, board and the conference fees. He could also get to sell his book, developed on church time, and then keep those proceeds. He could even encourage his church to use the book in Sunday school classes and small groups which means more book sales.
True story: My friend walked into a room in his former church and found copies of the pastor's books stacked ceiling to ground. I wonder. Did the church purchase those books, hoping to sell them? Perhaps someone's hard earned tithe money went to furthering the kingdom by purchasing stacks of books to hold up the ceiling? Ask questions, folks, ask questions.
Does the Bible say you must give to the local church?
All authoritarian pastors tell us that we must give to support their vision and enterprise. Many of them also demand a tithe which they define as 10% gross. But, if you look carefully at Scripture, this is not said anywhere in the New Testament. And the actual percentage of the tithe in the Old Testament was greater than 10% but that is a subject for another day.
I would urge all of you to stop giving to rich churches and pastors or abusive churches and pastors. Do you think they even give a hoot about your sacrifice? Instead, look around you and find Christian ministries that are housed in old buildings, sacrificially serving the poor, the let down, the homeless, and the disenfranchised.
How about an African American church that helps poor kids after school or feeds people under the bridge? How about rescue missions that reach out to the unloved? There are ministries that look after persecuted people groups or victims of human trafficking. I bet each of you know quite a few. I know such ministries would be thrilled with your donation and you might feel like your have done something worthwhile and eternal. Your money would actually do more good with these groups than the purchase of one more Bose speaker for Sunday morning.
Lydia's Corner: Genesis 3:1-4:26 Matthew 2:13-3:6 Psalm 2:1-12 Proverbs 1:7-9
What concerns me is that so many congregants who attend these 'hipster' churches are relatively young. Perhaps they have never thought to ask these questions (or don't have the courage to do so).
A Gospel Citizen? Are yoy kidding me?
SMG
Sorry, that was my antipodean accent kicking in. I meant “you,” of course.
Vanity pressing?
Or trying to juice the sales figures themselves?
Thanks for posting my tweet with this post and for saying what needs to be said to every flock with a Pastor who is using the kingdom of god to build himself a kingdom of wealth.
Note the gentleman in the blue shirt with his hands folded behind Furtick and Driscoll, he appears skeptical and not amused by what is going on. Whereas the sheepish lady next to him is smiling and laughing along with Robert Morris.She is the key demographic for the Mega Church model. A middle aged Mom who wants her family involved with a church and who is willing to do anything in the name of Jesus. The perfect target for Mega Church Pastors. They know that if we get the Mom we get the kids. If we get the kids the parents wont leave a church the kids love. A captive audience that is now at their disposal to sell the Pastor's books, the worship rock band's CD, DVD and study guides about the Pastor's book needed for e-groups, and an unlimited supply of volunteer hours to perform any task they feel they don't need to compensate anyone for.
Most of the people who attend these conferences are attending on their churches dime. Many are their for the purpose of learning from the Masters how to build a kingdom of wealth not to build a kingdom of god. These conferences only fuel the Christian Industrial machine and will continue to pump out the next generation of mega-rich Mega Pastors.
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Deb wrote:
Deb,
They have never thought of it. Many of these " kids" come from homes that didn't go to church, or they came from a home in which the church they attended was one in which they just "went along to get along…"
Hear! Hear! Amen, Dee!
“people under the bridge?” (from the post)
Oh my goodness. I had forgotten. All these years, who knows what we forget. When I was a student nurse we used to do little projects at a place called Bridge Mission which was a small baptist mission actually under a bridge. They ministered to people also under the bridge. Now, there were houses under the bridge and roadways, but it was rather dark even in the day time because the bridge overhead cut out some of the light. Let me explain, the bridge was over the Ohio River and was large and extended a rather long ways back from the water especially since the river bank was steep and back a way. Not talking about a highway bridge. Anyhow, it was stuff like that that influenced my understanding of what sorts of things it meant to be a follower of Jesus. How sad it would be if kids got raised in mega mega which had no mission under some bridge, or equivalent, and the kids never had any part in that. IMO you can memorize bible verses all day long, and wash cars in the church parking lot for mission projects, and sit in church until your beehonkas is flat as a board, but unless you get under the bridge–actually and metaphorically–you miss out on something essential.
People, don’t give your money or time or children to any place that does not care about the people under the bridge. That would not be good stewardship.
I often cover the topic of giving to the church in my blog and I am surprised at how many people, especially those who are in the Pentecostal Church( es) who actually believe that their minister SHOULD be the wealthiest man in their church, if not their town….I know people who cut their yard for them, buy/prepare most of their suppers, buy top of the line automobiles for the minister. (maybe it is just this area, but the Pentecostal preachers seem to all be driving a Lexus or a Lincoln…)
In case Bill Rogers or Sharon Long show up– this explanation of the family tree from 1 year ago:
Fred Rogers on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 09:30 PM said:
dee wrote:
Bridget
Yes, even Mr Rodgers reporting in from the great beyond!
But I’m not the same as great-nephew Bill Rogers and great-niece-in-law Sharon Long. I’m from Pittsburgh, not Charlotte, and went home to the real Elevation before the little elevation was *planted*…
Speaking of friends and churches, we are so grateful our the blessings of our including Dee and Bill. We look forward to new paths and fellowship with and imminent move to Frederick county Maryland. So we will be newcomers for the first time in a long time… and need suggestions about fellowship, friends, churches, places to eat, everything…
Finally caught up with my blog reading!
No denomination is perfect, and those who know me know that I have some issues with my own, but when I read this stuff I can’t help being glad I belong to a mainstream (you Americans would say ‘mainline’) church. Pastor’s salaries are fixed (so that a minister should be equally willing to go to a poor church as a rich one), and we don’t have to sign anything to be a voting member, just have been baptised at some stage, turn up and not be claiming membership of another church. Simple.
The only ‘church discipline’ I have ever seen happened when a guy turned up who was being stalker-y towards young women, and frightening them. The pastor, on being told he’d turned up again, handed the leadership of the service to someone else, went out personally to speak to the guy and told him that he had to sit next to a man in church, and only speak to women if a man was present. The guy stormed off in a huff and never came back.
Church accounts are printed out and distributed to the whole congregation at AGM time, and any member has the right to go to the wardens (who are voted in each year and frequently change) and ask for a detailed breakdown of the figures.Pastors get 4 weeks annual leave a year, like everyone else here, and are generally considered to be allowed one complete day a week of free time (their choice, and normally the congregation gets told not to attempt to contact him on that day (ours currently chooses Fridays) unless it’s a dire emergency.
I don’t think I’ve been socialised to accept a church where the head honcho isn’t accountable to everyone in these issues
Elevation Watch wrote:
I remember the target demographic of “Safe for the Whole Family” Christianese radio. Don’t remember the name they gave her (Sally? Susie?) but she lives in an upscale suburb, drives a minivan, has two-point-whatever mini-mes, attends a mega, and wants to be kept comfortable.
Which also kind of resembles the target demographic of Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey.
“Just like a Suburban Soccer Mom, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
I am surprised you didn’t mention to stop giving to a church that buys Sunday School materials from a pastor that is paid to work there….
wow check this out Steven Furtick is calling those who oppose what has gone on at Mars Hill snakes listen closely at the 3 min 40 sec and Mark Driscoll is to shake off the snakes and continue on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA0_jeEzA28
unbelievable what is going on.
I agree entirely with what is said here, but would also add that the amount the pastor receives in compensation should be substantially less than the church spends on humanitarian relief. When Martin Luther correctly protested against the sale of indulgences, and the Roman church had an inquisition running, it was concurrently providing healthcare, running orphanages, and ransoming captives. If your church limits itself to preaching the Gospel and does little or no charitable works, it contributes less to society than the Roman Catholic Church did at its very nadir, and exhibits the dead faith that St. James discusses in his epistle.
@ Kevin:
Um, that is all kinds of disturbing.
“Do you want Bono or a pastor?” Ummmm, truthfully? Sometimes I would rather have Bono!
Do you want Bono or a pastor?
Depends on what you want. Do you want to have someone who will visit you in the hospital, or have breakfast with you when your spouse dies, or lead a congregational prayer circle with you inside it? Or do you want to say, “I attend BONO’s church!” Associating with celebrity is a powerful attraction – until your world comes down around your ears. Then having a *pastor* is durn handy.
As to Bono vs a pastor, that is a hard call. If all some pastor can do is stand around patting little old ladies on the hand (I use that illustration because I am a little old lady) then I would rather have Bono in the pulpit. So maybe it is better to have more than one person on the clerical staff since different people have different gifts and abilities. But in truth little old ladies can pat each other on the hand. I say since my little old folks group met Monday and we did just that-tended to each other’s needs-in a mainline church, while planning our latest project to reach out to the pat-less at Christmas.
Waiting for some religious professional to do it, contenting oneself with only “professional” hand pats is pretty much scraping the bottom of the barrel the way some of us see it.
But to each his own. Why can’t there be both in the same church? Why not Bono in the pulpit and Brother Bob and Sister Lucy in pastoral care?
Perhaps We have totally misunderstood “pastor” and turned it into something it was never meant to be?
Which would render the process of looking for a “good pastor” totally moot.
Eeyore wrote:
I used to hear this sort of thing while I lived in Dallas. Charles Swindoll opened a church, thereby decimating churches around him, because he is a name and Dallas people love names. I remember the conversations. “I met Charles Swindoll. He thanked me for helping greet people.” They loved the glitz of an instant megachurch. They didn’t like me very much because I would start to grin and say “That must make you feel really, really good.”
Nancy wrote:
I originally said Mick Jagger but decided it aged me!
@ Kevin:
Great pickup. Of course he has to say that. Furtick is Driscoll. He is defending himself.
mouseyhair wrote:
I would agree with you. At least you know what he is and what he does. Plus, he has real talent.
me wrote:
Hmmmm, there was also a church which had a room stacked to the ceiling with a pastor’s books that had been purchased by the church. Perhaps those two should get together. Oh, wait…..
Re “Do you want Bono or a pastor?”
Is it all right if I admit I want Bono for my pastor? It’s not that I want to attend a church led by someone famous. I just think that if Bono ever hung up the tour bus keys and took up pastoring a church – a small gathering of fellow believers – he’d be wonderfully pastoral to the people in that church.
They make quite a team:
Robert “Your money is under a curse from God” Morris
Stephen “It’s not that big a house” Furtick
Mark “I wanna break their nose” Driscoll
The company you keep also define you. Now Jesus preferred prostitutes and collectors of the Roman emperor’s taxes to these snake oil salesmen. They alone should easily be thanked for up to 20% of new atheists in the U.S.
Re: “Did you know that Robert Morris, in yesterday’s video, expressed amazement that Driscoll preached 43 weeks per year. That’s right, Driscoll, who brags he can write a sermon in 2 hours, is considered a workaholic for doing his job!”
I agree with your full post. I do think that in any church, even with real pastors, it would be good that no one woman or man monopolizes the pulpit for 43 weeks per year. We need diversity of thought and diversity of experience in the pulpit to best equip the people for the work of the ministry. In such a situation a pastor’s work load should include other pastoral duties, which will enhance her or his teaching as well. And of course the salary should be near the median of the congregation and community.
Eeyore wrote:
Do I need a “pastor” to do this? Couldn’t I just do it? Or couldn’t some run of the mill, joe or jane average believer just do it? Why do I need to pay someone to do these things? Is the pastor buying me breakfast? 🙂
Amen.
I could not agree more with this post.
@ Tim:
I knew I should have gone with Mick Jagger. What would your answer be then?
Gus wrote:
That’s what my mother used to say. She was right.
rasinwhiting wrote:
I agree with you in concept. But, at the risk of seeming cynical, do you really thing if Driscoll taught less and had one of his boys fill in, that you would get a diversity of views?
@ Anonymous:
I know it works this way at your church. May your tribe increase.
I have said this previously, but I wish someone would make it a “rule” for Churches….
Tie pastoral salaries to school salaries in your region.
Pastor of a church of less than 200 = A teacher with equivalent experience/education
Pastor of a church in the mid to high 100’s = School principle
Pastor of a “mega” = Superintendent
This means you never have to have a “consultant”, or do research on what to pay your pastor. Also, it cuts criticism off at the pass. It is a pay scale that makes sense to your congregation with plain to understand escalators built in(years, plus education, furthering education, etc)
Adam Borsay wrote:
Oh and to add to that….it would encourage pastors to support their local schools and motivate them to advocate for school levies ; )
Doug wrote:
Doug, I agree with you. Once we went down this road eons ago (faulty interpretations), we created a “set apart” person in categories not recognized in scripture (clergy/laity) who is paid to do the things those in the Body are compelled to do because of our love for one another.
I do wonder because “pastor” is used very few times in the NT and if I am correct, a verb. Not a noun as in “office”.
It is something any of us can do with the gifting of the Holy Spirit. We really do have a sort of caste system Christianity. I often think of …”a form of godliness but no power of the Holy Spirit” when I think of our institutional structures.
At this point in my life I am thinking a more liturgical type person who seems to “facilitate” things is a better course if we must have “spiritual” institutions. It is harder for them to become celebs and icons. Although it can happen. I can no longer tolerate one person telling me about Jesus week in and out in a “sermon”. I know Jesus. I am very interested in historical context, etc and really enjoy listening to scholars. (Real ones– not the ones coming out of the SBC or Reformed movement. The types you ahve to go looking for. …the ONLY reason I found NT Wright years ago is because of Piper. Hee Hee)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
It’s “Becky.” Sincerely, a songwriter who thinks that’s disgusting.
dee wrote:
First, he’d have to have found some Satisfaction. If his satisfaction is in Christ and he took up pastoring, I think Mick would make for a very … interesting(?) … pastor to the people of his church. The music in any case would be lively.
“I’ve got the moves like Jagger, I’ve got the moves like Jagger.”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Just because I remember stuff like this (it is a curse!), her name is “Becky”. Brant Hansen posted it on his LFKK blog.
Lydia wrote:
My training tells me to think of the “list” in Eph. 4 more like functions that any believer can move in and out of depending on the context. If I look simply at the basic word meanings, it is difficult to reverse the list into a career path, which is, I think, what a lot of the mega-church guys do. Start at pastor and end up at Apostle, even if your theology says that there are no more Apostles. But don’t confuse me with facts… I like your idea of facilitator, which seems to be closer to the one another idea to me.
Adam Borsay wrote:
We did this at the church where I served on the elder board for a while, but compared salaries of the assistant professors, associate professors and full professors at the University of California campus in our college town. Professors are paid well but they’re not getting rich off their jobs, while the assistant and associate professors receive much lower pay than people might expect. It was a good guideline, although not one we adhered to slavishly.
I think the finance committee and elder board use a different rubric now, but still no one is getting wealthy working at that church. This is also one of those churches where the budget is voted on by the congregation in an open annual meeting, and no vote is taken until all questions from the floor are asked and answered.
Lydia wrote:
This awakens memories of a stream in the UK charismatic movement that really did want to reintoduce body ministry, where everyone contributed according to gifts. When you come together each one has … A genuine attempt to get away from having a man at the ‘front’.
The one or two I know of personally also had a pastor and usually elders, but if the pastor was full-time exercised a ‘faith’ ministry, which was jargon for not being officially paid a salary at all, but trusted God to meet his financial needs through the giving of the body of believers. If such a man started going off the rails, God had a very easy way of ‘speaking’ to him about it!
There is no need to have a paid professional at all. Whilst I wouldn’t go so far as to say it is wrong for people to be full-time, the professional clergy idea is what results in many of the problems being the object of piece above.
May I heartily second the idea you have a right to leave a church or fellowship. Not to be a church-hopper or spiritual gypsy, but you have to exercise your responsibilty not to follow a church or its leaders into deception or some other unholy activity. I’ve been there with this one, and would add – and I’m sure most would agree – that you have a ‘right’ and responsibility to learn doctrine and think for yourself, and not surrender this to someone else.
@ Doug:
I also see them as functions and they are not static but linear. People move in and out of them depending on the situation. I have always tried to figure out what being “gifted” to “teach” meant to the 1st Century Christian. I can understand pastoral, elder (those mature enough in the faith to be fed to the lions first) and some others but “teaching”? Teaching what, exactly? I would love to hear what others think.
@ rasinwhiting:
I thought Robert said 50 times per year and often 6 times per weekend? Don’t know how that is possible considering that MH does the video version of church and Mark Driscoll is often out of town at conferences and doing book tours 🙄
We need to remind Morris that this was all Driscoll’s own choice. No one forced him to work like this (if he did) or to make an exorbitant salary, book income, and get a $200,000 housing allowance while doing it. Gosh! Life is hard for MD.
Lydia wrote:
Yes and no.
No, in that it is generally (I think always, but I haven’t checked) a noun in the NT. Think, for instance, of I am the Good Shepherd; the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
But yes, in that it does not appear as an ecclesiastical office. In fact, there’s more than a little justification for saying that the word “pastor” never appears at all in the NT, because the word traditionally so translated was simply the mundane, everyday word for a man who looked after sheep – as in, actual sheep, with four legs and wool. In an agrarian society, that was a common job-title, and quite a low-ranking one at that. Whereas “pastor” has become loaded with religious meanings and is only ever used in a religious context. Thus, “shepherd” would be a far better and more accurate translation.
Kevin wrote:
Well, I guess they are self-sorting. Driscoll, Furtick, Morris. Wonder when Little Ed, Noble, and C.J. will join them on tour.
My mom and I walked out of a service at the local mega-church (affectionately known to locals as “Six Flags Over Jesus”. I learned a few things from that experience.
*If your church is compared to an amusement park, stop giving. If it has a nickname of Six Flags Over Jesus, ask where that money could be better spent.
*If your church posts a diagram on the website of the people who actually have access to the pastor, walk out.
*If your pastor writes books on evangelism but never actually shares the good news outside of church walls, stop attending.
*If your megachurch can’t be bothered to help families in crisis, find one that cares.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Yes, and the under-shepherds are caring for the Good Shepherd’s sheep. They have no rights to use the sheep but only to care for them and protect them.
Lydia wrote:
Well, Ehrman whom I am reading alongside Wright, makes a huge point about the degree of illiteracy in the population group that was in the majority in the churches during that time period. He parallels the quality of the manuscript copies (which increases with time) with the increased appeal of christianity to the more likely to be literate classes, for example. So gifted to teach may have meant, at least in part, literate and able to read the apostolic letters and other letters that were being passed around at the time.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Shepperd at least connotes day-to-day interaction, care, oversight to keep safe, and hard work to go with that.
If the pastor is basically a sheep herder, what is the name for the guy who does the preaching?
And what is the name for the function of scholar within the early church setting? I notice that Peter and the guys wanted to devote themselves to study when the idea of deacons was first implemented, so maybe they had a name for it.
And what about some administrative function? Judas carried the purse, so I am assuming that having somebody manage the finances was going on.
I think I understand deacon and teacher, but of course when Jesus said call no man rabbi (teacher) or father and we note that the early church did speak of teaching and Paul called himself a father, there must be something here also that I do not understand.
Help from anybody, please.
Ok, here is an open question that I would love responses to. I have seen the celebrity ailment and mega-churchism in all kinds of evangelical churches. I have not seen it in any liturgical churches (with the exception of one LCMS church in Houston which had gotten all muddled up and thought it was Southern Baptist). Does anyone else have experience with liturgical churches exhibiting the symptoms of mega? I would love to hear others’ experiences.
Reflecting on Ben Bradlee quotes:
It changes your life, the pursuit of truth.
I take great strength from that now, knowing that in my experience, the truth does emerge. It takes forever sometimes, but it does emerge.
In August I had the privilege at our SNAP annual conference of recording my story at StoryCorps Chicago. SNAP has posted mine and the stories of other SNAP leaders on the website. I finally listened to mine yesterday and posted it on my blog if anyone is interested. It’s my story of how I came to be a SNAP leader and advocate for abuse survivors and my journey of exposing child sexual abuse and cover up at Prestonwood, a Baptist megachurch in Dallas:
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2014/10/my-storycorps-recording-in-chicago.html
Celebrity pastors and the wannebes loathe questions from the sheep. And they really loathe those who don’t put up with their crap anymore.
__
‘Sopy’s Whistle: “One Savior, One faith, One trust, One walk?” (c)
hmmm…
WartBurg,
…these are not ‘christian churches’, these are more akin to 501(c)3 ‘Religious Zombie Chop Shops.’ (TM)
SKreeeeeeeeeetch !
(bump)
Game’s, on.
Krunch!
*
A ‘voice’ perhaps, crying from the Internet ‘void’, Please Beware!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aySe4MhK28U
“You don’t know how important you are; if you are reading this, you are the resistance…”
(sadface)
Sopy
—
dee wrote:
No, not at all. This subject takes us into ecclesiology. I don’t think any pastor-teacher should have any hierarchical authority.
@ Kevin:
I just watched part of this and I can’t believe this man! Why all the background music and special effects?
@ Adam Borsay:
Adam, I think you meant “Principal, not “Principle.” A very common mistake. 😎
Mandy wrote:
I used to be a local. I’m very familiar with SFOJ. People going to/from service cause local traffic disturbances. But SFOJ aside, the city itself is chock-full of some mega-aspirationals. It made finding a church there quite challenging.
@ dee:
Judging from the 9 rights in church membership you’ve enumerated in the main body of your article, there just might be some hope after all for Christianity to catch up with the Enlightenment.
@ Muff Potter:
You mean there might be hope for evangelicalism to catch up with the rest of Christianity 😕
@ rasinwhiting:
Frankly, I am so fed up with the lot of them. I am developing a wait and see attitude for just about everyone. When a great guy like Matt Redmond cannot get a job as a preacher, then I believe the system is flawed and/or rigged.
I like this whole post; I really do….
But, I do wish people would quit calling God’s children ‘sheep’. This was undoubtedly a culturally relevant term in NT times, but I don’t think it needs to be taken quite so literally as many, (esp elders) tend to do. I think it really paints us as dumb, pew-warming mutton, without any other mental or spiritual dimension.
Did you know that in translating one of the Native American languages in Alaska, that the term ‘sheep’ was translated as ‘baby seal’ or ‘baby harp seal”? (This info came from friends of ours who spent months living with this people group in Alaska).
The picture is one of helplessness and tenderness, of vulnerability and frailty but NOT, I think of stupidity…..
I kind of prefer to think of myself as a ‘baby seal’.
PS–Just thought of this! If this is considered off-topic, I apologize. I am not much used to blogging and will off course change things if I can figure out how to do it on my computer.
sigh wrote:
Yes–I used to attend a closet-SBC, ahem, I mean, a COMMUNITY church right across the parkway from SFOJ. It’s a very interesting environment.
@ Kevin:
This was part of his sermon that he used when Stuart Watson reported on Elevation’s use of Spontaneous Baptisms back in February of this year. It is obvious that he changed to this once he found out the Gateway Conference appearance was Mark’s Driscoll’s self restoration plan. He wasn’t prepared and couldn’t quote the scripture he used to support his point, Acts 28:1. Very obvious.
__
“DriscoBotz R Us?”
hmmm…
X-Mars Hill Pastor Mark Driscoll is ‘now’ accusing his detractors of petty vandalism N’ back-yard residential violence?
hmmm…
SKreeeeeeeeeeeetch !
Bump.
(think big)
R U 100% ready for da next generation of proverbial ‘Pastorally Program’d Church Driscobots Zombies’ (c)? …comin’ to a city near you?
🙂
—
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Yeas. A few years ago with an LCMS church that was going all mega as fast as possible. They were using evangelical materials and techniques. Still liturgical, but with Multiple screens, praise bands, softball sermons, etc.
When my wife and I met with the “Senior Pastor” and asked why as a Lutheran church they were adopting Evangelical methods, we were asked to leave. No joke, it took all of three minutes for him to say “This church is not for everyone, maybe you need to find somewhere else to worship”. I know because I timed it, precisely because it happened to me once before at an evangelical church. So that was the confirmation that they bought into the whole Drucker playbook.
Stop giving if your church is paying Docent to prepare sermons for your pastor.
Dee and Deb we want you to be our shepherds and to continue to expose the wolves in sheep’s clothing. I’m sure you won’t rip us off! LOL. Continue to set the captives free.God Bless.
@ william wallace:
If Dee and Deb are going to be proper shepherds, we need to set them up with a $60K/year clothing allowance. What do you think? 😉
roebuck wrote:
Must be satin, right?
@ TW:
Back in the day many megas were buying from Willow Creek.
William G. wrote:
Amen, William!!
It drives me crazy when people donate money to someone who is clearly “rolling in it”, whilst all around us, people are hungry, homeless, or in prison. THis is NOT what Jesus Christ did; its not what the early church did. It’s a con, all too often, IMNSHO.
roebuck wrote:
I’m thinking shoes alone should require more than that.
@ Nancy:
thanks Nancy, that’s exactly the sort of thing I’m talking about. historical context is fascinating. I keep forgetting to check out his books at the library.
@ Gram3:
I’m thinking you’re right, and as Abbess Numo of the TWW Church of the Holy Chocolate, i am entitled to a cut. 😉
Give up the delusion that if you just present a Biblical argument, they will see the error of their ways and change.
__________________________________________________________________________
This is so right I have to applaud. I am so tired of trying out Christian arguments on people who are fraudulent Christians. In fact, I think that’s a way of telling a goat from a sheep. A number of times I’ve tried to appeal to the Bible and kindness and just common decency (both of which of course are quite biblical) to abusive church leaders and enablers in the church and found myself completely nonplussed that such appeals fall on deaf ears and often cause them to get agitated, angry and slanderous. I think the simple fact is they don’t care about the Bible, perhaps even hate it. When you shine that light the people who like the darkness hate you. It seems many of these, unfortunately, are sitting in pews all round you.
Doug wrote:
🙂
Do they make humble satin?
Gram3 wrote:
Did I say $60K/yr? I meant $60K/month. 😉
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Funny you should ask that! After 40 years of working, crying & getting hearts broken in various evangelical churches; in every case as a result of some sort of sexual sin or other on the part of a pastor, we’ve decided to spend our retirement years in a conservative liturgical congregation. We’re in a small town so only really a choice between LCMS & the new(er) Anglican church in N. America.
We’ve concluded that it is much harder for a people to get led astray when your service consists of ancient creeds, fixed worship settings, 3 scripture readings (OT< NT & Gospel) with about a 10-15 minute 'homily' than in one in which the whole service seems just a set-up for a hour long sermon from a learned person. Hanging on the learned persons words just is a lot of chance for pride and self-justification on the part of the learned person as well as too much of a temptation for the listeners to both elevate the speaker & fail to ponder the Scriptures for themselves.
We don't fool ourselves that things are in any way approaching perfect in these churches, but certainly we see a 'purity' of words spoken & sung which is greater than in less organized services.
We've just been worn out with 'church' and just want to go somewhere to worship when we're sure about what'll be taught.
Gram3 wrote:
Sounds like a tour that should travel on the circus train.
I think most of the financial side of openness would actually be automatically handled, if churches were only required to fill out Form 990s, like other non-profits are required to do.
@ JeffT:
Carnie christians. 😉
Richard wrote:
Amen. I don’t see how that would cause church/state separation issues since it is just an information form, but the howls would be loud and long.
@ Law Prof:
I can so identify with this. Hours of pouring over the bible only to find the church leaders or members neither know nor care what the bible says on something. Don’t rock the boat. Do you find Romans 8 relevant to this?
‘For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.’
You encounter this with those who are first and Christians second, if at all.
You encounter this with those who are baptists/anglicans/methodists etc etc first, and Christians second if at all. Formatting error!
JeffT wrote:
Or on the Crazy Train.
@ roebuck:
That’s more like it! 😉
numo wrote:
Hey, they’re blog royalty. Adorable, to be sure, but royalty nevertheless. 😉
Gram3 wrote:
Good label! Their presentations remind me of a carnival barker. Hey, maybe Furtick will boost his income by using a dunk tank for his ‘spontaneous baptisms’.
@ dee:
Vut when the kids were forced to read the (really poor quality) books purchased by a pastor from his own book publishing company, that is probably marginally worse__though it is a close call. Certainly both are cases of fleecing the sheep.surely they would not occur at the same church-,Or could I be wrong?
I got really depressed reading the comments to this blog….it’s because there are so many people who support their minister’s wealthy lifestyle and do nothing but go along….and it seems to be getting worse….
:/
Law Prof wrote:
I think it’s subtler than that. The two statements Everything we believe is based squarely on the Bible and the Bible agrees with everything we believe are very close to being equivalent. Past a certain point, I think people who fall for that line don’t so much hate the Bible as despise it – it’s their property and exists to serve them. Which also explains why they dislike you referring to it – you’re treading on what they see as their territory.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nick, this is a very disturbing thought. I very much fear you are correct, though I never quite articulated to myself that way.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Thank you for posting this, Nick. It was edifying to me.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
An astute observation Nick.
Have encountered a few church leaders who displayed this very notion. The word was only applicable when and if they determined it so. They alone had the authority to discern. This attitude is coupled with an absence of any reflection upon the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Tim wrote:
Minsters are paid better than teachers in my town. Especially First Baptist, the second largest SBC, First Methodist, First Assembly, First UPC….then the district I retired from was the poorest paying in the Region 5 Area.
I have a Master’s, ( 21 Hours above the Master’s) had 30 years of service, worked several additional school jobs to increase my pay, and I didn’t make much above $50,000 a year. ( my wife has always made more money than me, or I’d had to seek a refinery position in Orange or Beaumont)
I know the pastor of the FBC makes right at $75,000 in salary….and the church pays the family health insurance, he has a monthly car allowance, house allowance.( over $100,000)…the second largest SBC pastor is very close in his salary and benefits…and he did not complete college…
We are talking small town East Texas…
Lynne Tait wrote:
I kind of feel the need to avoid Sydney diocese Anglican churches though, and Melbourne diocese Catholic ones… I was sort of ‘tricked’ at the Port Fairy Folk Festival once when they advertised the Sunday Anglican church service as a blues roots one or similar. That was enough to draw me in. Unfortunately there was some small related musical segment only, that was it. I suffered in the pews until Communion time, when they said that only those who had been ‘Confirmed’ in an Anglican church could partake. I beat an early retreat (on principle – I had refused to do Confirmation when I was an adolescent). I hadn’t considered that what I’d stepped into was a ‘high church’ when I have much more ‘low’ tastes.
rasinwhiting wrote:
Actually, we don’t need diversity of thought. . . we just need what is true.
elizabetta carerra wrote:
That is so, but that way of thinking can be a trap for some people. I listen to our recent Orthodox commenter, and he seems to be zealously committed to what he perceives as the truth. I have listened all my life to some Catholics who were sure that they were sure about everything. And now I have read “…dominus iesus” in which the last pope noted that there is room not for further revelation but rather further understanding, and I see what the current pope is doing and saying (as his opinion) that God is not afraid of change (and note the traditionalist backlash against that) and I conclude that the attitude of I am sure that I am sure that I am correct about everything cannot possibly be an accurate expression of truth. Especially in the light of what Paul said about our level of knowledge this side of heaven.
So, yes I totally agree that what we need is truth. But clamping the mind down against any and all further understanding or any change or any variation from “how I understand it” does not necessarily lead to that truth. About all that extreme attitude does is relieve the anxiety of knowing that what we know is incomplete and subject to further understanding, and knowing that we make mistakes along the way from time to time.
@ OnlyEleven:
I must add a correction to my previous comment. “Shepherd” is used a couple of times as a verb in the NT. Jesus instructed Peter to shepherd His sheep, and both Peter and Paul instructed elders to shepherd the flock of God, or the church. But it is overwhelmingly used of Jesus himself.
Interestingly, molly245 wrote:
Apart from a couple of references to the “flock of God” or to the whole church as being Jesus’ sheep, all the references to us as “sheep” are spoken by Jesus himself. And in Acts 20, Paul describes the elders (to whom he is speaking) as being “among”, not “over”, the flock. Overall, I can find no good excuse for a mindset that says there are leaders, and then there are sheep.
Not to be argumentative, but I don’t personally like “helpless”, “vulnerable” or “frail” any more than “stupid”. All of them can be, and frequently are, used to infantilise Christians en masse. Different people find different things obnoxious, of course, but I think all of the above sit very uneasily alongside the way the NT instructs us to be. (“Tender”, or compassionate, is an exception.) We are, collectively, the Body of Christ on earth, and we’re a Body On A Mission, not a Baby In A Manger any more.
K.D. wrote:
Well, that is one of the reasons that my wife and I are part of our small bible church. The pastor is a former truck driver / everything-else-under-the-sun and has lived for the majority of his life on my side of the pulpit. He is one of us, and it is not an act. And he has enough people under his soul care that will smack him upside the head (Gibbs) when he gets to big for his britches. I had lunch with him the other day, and he has been following the MD / MH debacle through me. He freely admits he likes “pastoring” as small church and never wants us to be big. He is 65, rides a harley, & hunts, but doesn’t push the manly man version of Christianity at anyone. I do not idolize the man, but love him like a brother. He is one of the most welcoming “pastors” I have even known. Their house is just like everyone else’s, and he doesn’t make all that much money. I am pretty sure that most of the men see him as an equal among brothers. So I think that leaders like him are out there, just not where most people are looking. There is no glitz and glam at our church. Just a bunch of normal people trying to follow Christ the best way we know how, and trying to fend off the Neo-Cals.
JeffT wrote:
“Spontaneous Baptisms” of shills?
Jenny wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otdHbA4GlSI
(couldn’t find the “Dean Scream” remix anywhere — “EEEEEEYAH!!!”)
Gram3 wrote:
Anton LaVey started out as a carnie…
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Yes, and also.
The whole sheep thing is certainly used in OT and NT. But Jesus also used the analogy of family as in “whoever does the will of my father is my …(fill in the blank), and he said “I have called you friends….” Paul called us co-laborers (laborers together) with God. If the only thing that some preachers/leaders see is sheep, then one must ask why the unbalanced view of scripture.
This sort of thing, forgetting the balance, is the sort of thing that makes me want to commit shaken-peracher-syndrome on somebody. If they are going to say the bible says, then they are duty bound to tell the whole story in proportion and in balance.
Nancy wrote:
Amen!
RE: Church Keys
At the risk of being too flippant, I actually have a set of keys to our church, and I am reminded that in our local culture a “church key” is also known as a bottle opener. 🙂
I always figure that as a deacon, I could change the locks on the doors if necessary. How would that be for exercising “the keys”?
@ Doug:
Actually, Doug, that’s precisely what happened in a church split I got embroiled in, in 1978. Here’s a quote from my account of what happened when the second or third candidate for pastor was rejected by congregational vote:
“When the deacons were supposedly going to present plans for new candidates, something unexpected happened instead. A group that included most of the deacons said they’d called the failed candidate as the pastor for the church, he’d said yes, and those who didn’t like it could just leave. Then they confiscated keys to the building, changed locks overnight, and barred the parking lot so it could only be used when they unchained it. (It was rumored later that “guns were present in case things got out of hand.” This being a regional stronghold for NRA advocates, that was perfectly believable and in no way a joke.)”
The stress of that agonizingly drawn out experience (it took about 18 months of pressure before the split finalized) came closer to destroying my faith than *anything* else in the last 40 years.
I’ve also been in a church where new members were given a key, which I found a meaningful symbol of hospitality and participating there — perhaps as poignant in the other direction as the 1978 taking away of keys was a powerful spiritual slap in the face.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Sorry, I didn’t mean to bring up a painful memory. Guess I shouldn’t have taken the risk. I like the first part tho, about being given a key. That sounds like a good idea.
I better just stick to my bottle opener…
@ brad/futuristguy:
Btw, at our church the deacons (3) are servants only, with absolutely no authority. My dog has more authority than I do…so…back to lurking…
Nancy wrote:
They only feel duty bound to share the entire balance of who believers are in Christ if they are truely shepherding out of love for the saints. My experience is that many church leaders teach limited truth as a means to control the masses. They don’t have a desire to help mature young saints nor encourage older saints to do the same.
Doug wrote:
That’s where I first heard the phrase “church key”, Doug. It’s for opening beer cans, not sanctuary doors, as explained quite audibly at ~30 seconds into this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX7xwzVHndU
@ Doug:
Yo, Doug, no worries. Really! I brought up my 1978 experiences to heighten the contrast between that massively abusive situation and the relatively positive church that handed out “keys to the [local] kingdom” as it were for church members.
Nancy wrote:
ManaGAWD mouths watering for the taste of fresh roast mutton?
Here’s an even better version of Church Key. While The Revels may have been the first to release a recording of it, The Impacts gave it more style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtxeExzM6Vc
Or perhaps I’m biased because we had The Impacts’ album and I listened to it incessantly when I was a kid. We had a lot of great surf music to listen to growing up on the California coast in the 60s. Pardon me while I reminisce for a moment …
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Whew! And just for the record, I would turn my keys in first anyway.:-)
@ Nancy
The sheep metaphor is often take way too far. I am glad you reminded us of “whoever does the will of the Father” and “I have called you friends”.
Here is a question I have always had. When CJ is around Al Mohler is CJ the “sheep” and MOhler the “shepherd”? I ask because of CJ’s long time demeanor around him as the sort of adoring sychophant? What about the YRR pastors and Piper? Are they sheep and Piper is the shepherd?
The reason I ask this is because their entire belief system is wrapped up in some sort of heirarchical equation. It is the foundation of their system and it has to be worked into every single scenerio, bible passage, etc. Watch for it. It is there.
I would remind them that most often the shepherd did not “own” the sheep they were guarding. They had a master who owned them. And in the case of dealing with humans, what some might think of as shepherds– are sheep, too. Paul described himself also as an “underrower” which was the lowest level on a working slave ship. I would like to see them start using that one.
Tim wrote:
Now that is interesting. My mom always had a key to the church. But it was not that sort of key. :o)
@ Elevation Watch:
I agree. These guys are using a false construct of the “gospel” to amass wealth and then assume they deserve it because they worked for it.
Didn’t the apostle Paul work so as not to be a financial burden to the people he served? And wouldn’t million dollars homes be considered a form of robbing people, especially when the cost of building and maintaining those home is kept a secret? I don’t know about anyone else, but if you’re going to take people’s money in the name of “obedience unto the Lord” (the tithe) then the Lord’s people have the right to demand an account. The way guys like Furtick and Driscoll get around that and lord over the people is by claiming a higher authority over them by which they presume they aren’t accountable to the people. How they call that “serving the Lord” I’ll never understand. I cannot reconcile any of this with the true church, nor these men with being true Christians.
Anyway, I also noticed in the Driscoll/Gateway video at the end, when Driscoll walked toward his seat during a standing ovation there was a guy seated there, in the front row, who wasn’t standing or clapping.
That guy.
That guy is my kind of guy.
I cannot understand why any pastor would want to be associated with the vulgar teachings of Driscoll. I lost respect for a local well known pastor when he supported a Mars Hill plant so much that he used his own church for a fund raising dinner for the church plant. It was an Assembly of God church, which really surprised me. Now I associate this well respected pastor with some teachings that make me feel like puking.
I have often wondered where the current model of the evangelical church came from, where we sit and listen to one person speak as the main event. I have read in 1 Corinthians where two or three spoke, shared, or whatever you want to call it. It does not appear to me that there is a command for a particular form in the NT. Does the form breed the men who abuse the power?
I have been noticing lately how much that form shows up on TV. The University Channel and the ubiquitous press conferences in the nightly news all have a man (rarely a woman) behind a pulpit talking.
Has it become so much a part of who we are that changing it will be impossible?
For the record, I make way less than $500,000 a year and work more than 40 hours. But I’m a teacher and that’s what we do!
@Mandy -6FOJ! Oh my! And oh my to your whole post!
@ Doug:
Well, the liturgy as practiced in the Armenian Apostolic and EO churches dates from the 4th century. The Didache describes something similar. The rise of the “preacher” seems to have occurred during the rise of scholasticism sometime during the enlightenment/reformation era. The intellectual bent certainly does seem at odds with how Scripture describes the faith. At some point, the intellectual lecture morphed into entertainment.
@ molly245:
It’s unfortunate, but in my experience the only denominationally affiliated liturgical churches to go of the rails on a crazy train are LCMS churches (my own denom). I suppose congregationalism gets you some crazies in the mix. One thing I have learned for sure: there is no “sliver bullet” that, if implemented, guarantees a healthy church. It takes good people working hard. Every church is different.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
That is interesting. I have a theory that when anything becomes entertainment the true form & value of it (whatever “it” is) gets lost forever. Perhaps this is true with the form(s) of the church?
Former CLC’er wrote:
Thank you for your service! (We should say that to teachers at least as much as it is said to military personnel, imo)
“D” wrote around a year ago (excerpts):
“One year ago (October 23, 2013), I wrote a post Steven Furtick Proves That It Is Time to Stop Giving to the Local Church. In this post, I suggested that it is time for church members to stop giving to their church if certain criteria are present.”
“All authoritarian pastors tell us that we must give to support their vision and enterprise. Many of them also demand a tithe which they define as 10% gross. But, if you look carefully at Scripture, this is not said anywhere in the New Testament. And the actual percentage of the tithe in the Old Testament was greater than 10% but that is a subject for another day.”
I suggest, you expound this whole “tithe” subject NOW (not another day), too many have been BULLIED by this false doctrine, via false teachers. And, DUPED into thinking they are serving Jesus by doing it and/or guilty if they don’t. What is amazing is that Jesus HIMSELF ended tithing and a whole lot more on the cross. But, that would reveal the true Lord Jesus Christ and expose false teaching/teachers. Not a very popular subject, but look at the collateral damage! Look how people relate to God in this area. Then consider the Great Commission (Matt 28). Ouchcabible!!! Where is the love???
Here are a couple of posts from last year that is further food for thought:
Quotes from TWW, etc.
1. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 07:39 PM said:
I would just like to point out that giving a drunkard a drink is unethical. Giving a heroin addict a needle is unethical. And giving money to an organisation that is irresponsible with that money is unethical. The technical term is “enabler”. So an attitude that says “just give – if they misuse it it is on them” is unethical and irresponsible.
1. Tim on Fri Oct 25, 2013 at 12:22 PM said:
Every point you made is golden. I’d add: stop giving to any church that teaches tithing, whether they are a mega-congregation or a tiny little outpost of the kingdom. Tithing is on the Old Covenant side of the cross, and we live under the New Covenant. Any church that teaches tithing is teaching slavery to the law, not freedom in Christ: http://timfall.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/which-side-of-the-cross-are-you-on/ .
Cheers,
Tim
Hmmm…
Foot wrote:
Thanks for the shout-out on my anti-tithing post, Foot!
Doug wrote:
Unless you’re Tim Hawkins. Then the entertainment carries the message. He’s one funny guy talking about what he sees people doing with their hands when they sing in church. (“Carry the TV, carry the TV.”)
@ molly245:
I’m only 24 and I’ve decided to only go to liturgical churches. I was raised ELCA (though I’m LCMS now) and all it took was three years in a PCA church to tell me that I should never leave the liturgical church again, unless something drastically changes by the end of my life. Except now my problem are people in liturgical church people who desperately want to ditch the liturgy and imitate the CCM evangelical churches I’m trying to get away from, because they think that’s the only way people will come to their church. *bangs head against brick*
@ Dr. Fundystan:
I don’t know, the WELS and various micro-Lutheran bodies (like the Lutheran Brethren) seem to be pretty well wacked-out.
Next So Much More is up.
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/so-much-more-p-23-32-part-3-the-providence-game/
D&D, should I post these notifications on open discussion from now on? I want to let people here who aren’t subscribed to SL know about the posts, since judging by the number of hits I get after I post these here, it seems a lot of people are interested.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Back when I still darkened the doors of churches my last sojourns were with Lutheranism, LCMS and ELCA. Both churches had an early service that was strictly the old style liturgical type (for old folks like me) and later on they would have a contempo praise-n’-worship gathering. But to answer your question, no, there was none of the mega-biggie hijinx and nonsense in either venues.
If I’m not mistaken, Lutheranism still maintains its sanity because its clergy still answers to a central governing authority as opposed to the free-for-all (generally speaking) found at the mega-biggies.
My prediction is that the mega-biggies will eventually die out and become COSTCO like stores and indoor swap meets, while the ancient liturgy driven mainlines will survive and thrive as they’ve always done through the centuries.
@ Nancy:
Great comment!
@ Hester:
ALL liturgical churches have some members/parishes that are on the Crazt Train, though their intended destinations vary.
Chalk it up to our himanity, because that’s (imo) the cause. Nanfy’s post about truth just a bit upthread goes far to explain this phenomenon.
Question:
Do you tithe on the net or the gross?
Some false teachings/teachers would say the net.
The majority of false teachings/teachers would say the gross. You thieving, cursed poo poo heads. What, do you want God’s blessing on the net or the gross…
The New Covenant Minority would say; “neither.” Our Lord Jesus Christ paid the debt on the cross, IN FULL!!! And, I won’t ENABLE/party with false teachers who are “using” OPM – the drug of choice. AKA: Other Peoples Money…
Hester wrote:
Beat that dog, preacher!
Foot wrote:
While waiting for such a post, anyone interested in finding out the truth about the false doctrine of the Christian tithe, especially as presented in the heretical teachings of Robert Morris’ Blessed/Cursed Life teachings, please listen to this very well reasoned, biblically accurate review of this topic. It’s from the podcast Fighting For The Faith. They actually have a number of podcasts dedicated to this topic. Just type “tithe” into the search. Please share this with anyone you know who is enslaved by this dangerous false doctrine. Morris actually seeks to place Christians back under the law so he can buy more luxury sedans, massive boats and million dollar homes. This could be the most important thing you listen to this year:
http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2011/09/is-your-money-cursed-until-you-redeem-it-with-the-tithe.html
@ Nancy:
You confuse truth with narrow-mindedness and rigidity.
molly245 wrote:
Bravo, Dr. F!
Nancy wrote:
So. . . how to do we get to the truth?????
How to do church is a huge problem. I have gone to the “episcopal church in the catholic tradition” (sic) that my children and grandchildren go to, and I can sure see why people choose liturgy as the way to go. Amazing thing to me is that Father S over there throws in historical explanations here and anon and by and large talks very “grown up” and my grandchildren ages 12 and 9 both say they like this church better than the other (SBC mega) partly because they can “understand the sermons (homilies) better” especially the 9 year old. And I keep thinking that I have not heard them say that. I mean, really? But they are serious. Also mentioned were the congregational diversity (and the landscaping–it is awesome).
So, maybe crank up the volume, act frantic and silly, and water down the message is not the magic that it takes to reach the youth (think: kids) after all. At least not all of them. I find that idea very encouraging. You may consider this a praise report since we are really thankful that we found this place.
numo wrote:
ABSOLUTELY agree Ms. Numo
Foot wrote:
No.
GWInsida wrote:
Here’s an excellent short (3 minute) video of his false teaching interspersed with commentary on how he hurts the people who listen to him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP0uFa4tj58
It’s really well done.
elizabetta carerra wrote:
I probably ought to think about that a long time and try to say something profound, but I fear that profundity is beyond me on this. But I have a few ideas.
First, Truth, for a christian, has to be first and foremost a person (Jesus) not some concept about Jesus. This is not to say that the concepts are untrue, only that the person of Jesus must not take second chair to the doctrines. Second, the need to feel like one knows everything, now and completely, must be stamped out of the attitude simply because it is not true. And the emotional need to walk by sight and not faith has to go. Lots of luck with that one; if somebody accomplishes that they should write a book on it. Third, in looking at priorities as described by Paul top of the list was love (caritas, I think) and further down the list were faith and hope, and did not make the list was knowing all the answers to all the questions. Fourth, or at least somewhere, must be the realization that other people probably have lots to contribute to one’s understanding of this or that, even if only to see the same thing and maybe come to the same conclusions but from a different angle. This is especially difficult for me, when my children understand something better than I do–how unfair is that. I changed their diapers, for crying out loud. Then somewhere comes a difficult matter that is probably in the discernment continuum, and that is to learn to differentiate in one’s own mind what one is convinced of because of convincing evidence as compared to being convinced of because of a personal preference for a particular outcome.
Of course there is study, and I think study has to include listening to one’s opponents and those who hold other opinions and let them explain their position themselves. It does not work, in my experience, to listen to “my” people explain the thinking of “them.” I need to let “them” explain their own thinking. A lot of anti-catholic stuff is way off base partly because of not listening to the catholics explain their own stuff, for instance. I am making the assumption that this is a two way street. I approach study as though it were a class in school, not a pep rally. Works better I think for me.
And how can I say this next thing, not knowing who may be reading this. We have to get the sin out of our lives best we can because sin, even and especially unrecognized sin, can blind us to truth even if truth rang our front door bell. I hope you realize that I do not know you, I hardly even know me of course, so this is not a personal statement but rather a generalization on this topic.
If I were a sage I would be able to do better than this, but I am just sharing from some of what I think I have seen in my own journey.
@ Tim:
Another Elmer Gantry on display. When will it stop 🙁
Tim, GWInsida, et al
Robert Morris has attracted the attention of your adorable blog queens (to be differentiated from Mars Hill Kings.) We believe we should look carefully at the ministry of Morris, being scrupulously careful in our documentation. We believe he fits quite well into the profile of others we have featured: Mahaney, Young, Driscoll, Osteen, etc. We will be interveiwing former members who have experienced this ministry. We start tonight with just a broad overview.
elizabetta carerra wrote:
WHO’S Truth?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
LOL!
Good stuff Nick…
@ K.D.:
Sometimes even I can get by on one syllable…
dee wrote:
Once more unto the breach
Foot wrote:
Because in my income bracket the gross is over half again that of the net.
One-and-a-half times the take for the ManaGAWD.
All about the Benjamins, baby.
@Doug – thanks for your comment. It ranked right up there with a laugh from one of my toddlers with multiple disabilities today!
@ elizabetta carerra:
I don’t think that 2as her intent, Elizabeth.
Hester wrote:
This is a problem. CCM is actually itself a very well-worn and scripted liturgy. The primary difference between it and the more traditional, openly scripted liturgies is that CCM is governed by cultural norms and unwritten rules; sounds to make, postures to assume, phrases to utter spontaneously (thaaaaaankyou Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesussss is a popular one).
I don’t want to be unfairly flippant about CCM, because I’ve attended many tremendous CCM-style gatherings of believers. Like any other kind of liturgy, CCM can be a living and organic encounter with the living God, or an indulgent and self-deceiving exercise in psychological and emotional masturbation. Or anything in between.
There is a brilliant blog-post looking at the evolution, and appeal, of CCM-style worship that you can find by clicking on Nick’s blog post looking at the evolution, and appeal, of CCM-style worship. (The author is clearly a genius and, IMHO, should be paid huge amounts of money to write books on whatever he feels like writing on, then plug them on the conference circuit where many people should buy them and then talk about how this author has single-handedly revolutionised their love for Jesus.)
@ Lydia:
Lydia @ Thu Oct 23, 2014 at 11:25 AM said:
“…but “teaching”? Teaching what, exactly?”
How about teaching what Jesus taught His Disciples?
Isn’t that what Jesus taught “His Disciples” to teach?
Mat 28:19:20 NKJV
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations…
**teaching them to observe ALL things that I have commanded you**
Seems easy, and you should like this, Read the four Gospels. Make a list…
Observe, Teach, what Jesus Did, Taught, and Commanded His Disciples.
Observe, Teach, what His Disciples Did and Taught.
And Jesus, taught a lot in the Streets, and had His Disciples DO what He DID, in the streets.
Jesus taught, His Disciples, the gospel of the kingdom of God, and how to heal the sick.
Then sent His Disciples out into the streets to preach The Kingdom of God and heal the sick.
Mat 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues,
and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and *healing all manner of sickness*
and all manner of disease among the people.
Luke 9:2
And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
BUT, I’ve noticed, MOST wanna-be “church leaders,” Most pastor/leaders, Today…
*Ignore* or *Twist* what Jesus Did and Taught and Commanded His Disciples.
And – What His Disciples “observed Jesus doing” and what they Did and Taught.
One little thing Jesus taught “His Disciples” was…
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
His Disciples must have believed Jesus because NONE called them self pastor. Or shepherd.
Here is some of what Jesus, “The Word of God,” taught “His Disciples”
That, for the most part, is NOT being taught in “Today’s Religious System.”
Jesus, taught His Disciples…
1 – NOT to be called teacher for you have “ONE” teacher, Christ. Mt 23:8 NKJV
2 – NOT to be called leader for you have “ONE” leader, Christ, Mt 23:10 NASB
…. And, NOT one of His Disciples called them self Leader.
3 – ALL shall be taught of God. John 6:45 KJV
…. John taught, you need NO man teach you. 1 John 2:26-27
4 – ALL things, shall be taught you by the Holy Spirit, God. John 14:26
…. Paul taught, the Gospel he preached was from God, NOT man. Gal 1:10-16
5 – ALL truth, will come as the Spirit of truth guides and leads. John 16:13
6 – Jesus, as man, does nothing of himself, and is taught of God. John 8:28
7 – Jesus is the “ONE” Shepherd, the Good Shepherd. John 10:11-16.
…. And, NOT one of His Disciples had the “Title” – shepherd/leader/reverend.
8 – He who speaks of himself seeks his own glory. ( Titles/Position?) John 7:18.
…. And, NOT one of His Disciples called themself – pastor/leader/reverend.
….. A “Title,” a name, that belongs only to Jesus, in the Bible.
9 – If I honour myself, my honour is nothing. (Titles/Position?) John 8:54
…. Today’s pastor puts their name and “Title,” everywhere, for all to see.
…. Office doors, secratary desks, Sun Morn bullitins, Church street signs, etc.
…. Are thy speaking of themeselves? Are they honoring themselves?
10 – Peter, knowing Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God,
…. received *the revelation* from Father *God,* and NOT from man. Mt 16:17
…. NOT from Jesus, as man. Jesus gave “All” the glory, all the credit to God.
11 – I am among you as he that serves. Lu 22:27
12 – He that shall humble himself shall be exalted. Mat 23:12.
…. Humble – A modest or low opinion of one’s own importance.
….. Know many pastor/leader/reverends, today, with a low opinion of their own importance?
…. And, ALL His Disciples called themselves “Servants.”
Kinda hard for pastors, who call themselves teachers/leaders, to be making Disciples of Jesus…
When Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called teacher – NOT to be called leader… 😉
If someone “Ignores” what Jesus taught His Diciples?
If some one “Opposes” what Jesus taught His Diciples?
And, calls them self leader?
Allows others to call them leader?
Are they one of His Disciples?
@ Doug:
Good questions…
Do I need a “pastor” to do this? – NOPE
Couldn’t I just do it? – Yup.
Or couldn’t some run of the mill, joe or jane average believer just do it? – Yup.
Why do I need to pay someone to do these things? – Ouch!!!
Because of – Commandments of Men – Doctrines of Men – Traditions of Men – Tell us to. 🙁
Traditions – That Jesus warned WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Called Out Ones – About.
Mark 7:13
NLT – And so you “cancel” the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.
KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
NOPE – Can NOT seem to find, In the Bible…
Paid, Professional, Pastors, in Pulpits, Preaching, to People, in Pews.
Seems someone added that to the Bible.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You’ve just got to be joking. Ooops, sorry, I’ve just realised you are, I’m not all that familiar with British humour … 🙂
Would you like to join my world-changing Apostolic Team to help promote my latest anointed book, 12 Easy Steps in Achieving Humility – From Someone Who Knows, replete with handbook and CD’s, paypal account for donations (multiples of a hundred please for administrative convenience), plus pre-printed application form for us to arrange a weekend conference in your Community Facility?
We are a non-prophet organisation.
@ Nick:
Certain discussions would become soooooo much clearer if more people understood this. It would then become “We both want an order to our worship, so let’s discuss the merits of each” instead of “You evil traditionalists want emotionlessness and control, but I want AUTHENTICITY AND FREEDOM!!!”
@ Hester:
an order of service is exactly what it sounds like, after all. Can’t imagine *any* church being able to run services smoothly without one, liturgical or not. And yes, the whole setup with lots of “worship music” is a kind of liturgy, whether people want to accept that or not.
@ Ken:
Well done! British spelling and all.
Ken wrote:
Then how can you cast visions for your worshipers?
Did Nick anoint your book with some of his EVOO? I know you think I’m kidding, but there are people here who bottle OO just for anointing. Why should they make all the money?
You guys sound like you both have marketable concepts, but your ministries could be so much more powerful for the Kennick or Nickken kingdoms if you formed a coalition–maybe Gateway Gospel Group? And remember that you can be a very profitable non-profit if you structure your org carefully.
What are CCD and EVOO and OO?
@ K.D.:
Deb, you’re right! This is such a huge vulnerability in the church today.
My church has a published budget available all year long. Every nickel is accounted for. The pastor’s salary down to the food budget for the Christmas party. Our church is not in debt! Very weird yet wonderful because there is never any whining for money for things. The Dutch Reformed churches (URCNA) are a federation (not a denomination.) The members are truly involved at the local level. The format follows the “presbyterian” model in the New Testament.
@ Nancy:
Extra-virgin olive oil and just plain olive oil. Did you mean CCM? That’s Contemporary Christian Music. CCD in the Catholic Church is the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine which is basically a catechism.
A CCD would be a charge-coupled device. In principle they have a number of uses; they are most commonly employed in digital imaging. Because they can be made sensitive enough to capture single photons, they are especially useful in astronomy, for imaging objects at cosmological distances.
I hope this is helpful.
@ Gram3:
Yes, I meant CCM. Thanks for the info.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
On this side of the big sea water we could call your comment being a wise-a**.
Just trying to helpful in return.
Gram3 wrote:
We were thinking of a coalition, but couldn’t agree on who would head it up … 🙂
I wish to make the following disclaimer: the fact that 41.2% of the text of my book is verbatim identical to Dee’s earlier book on how she achieved Perfect Humility in 40 Days needing only 7 minutes a day is PURELY COINCIDENTAL. We were just moving in the same anointing, obviously.
Anyone disputing this will be hearing from my lawyer shortly; claiming google is your friend will be no defence.
@ Ken:
Let me know when early registration becomes available for your Humility conference. C.J.’s book just didn’t help me much for some reason.