Psalm 40:4 Blessed is the one
who trusts in the Lord,
who does not look to the proud,
to those who turn aside to false gods.[b]

Death threats? Rusty nails in his driveway? Address posted online by news media? Where?

The introductory speaker said “Don’t believe everything you read online. I would say it is more believable than what Mark Driscoll said in his talk. I could be wrong, but I am pretty up on these things and I have not read any of these things going on.

I am going second what Debbie Kaufman said. Could someone investigate and find out if Driscoll was BSing or those things really happened?

Gee, I’m so surprised that this charlatan has taken this route you could have knocked me over with a sledgehammer. What a manipulative weasel. You can’t fool all of the people all of the time, but, unfortunately, phony “Christians’ like him know all they have to do is fool some of the people most of the time to get rich in the business. It’s just sickening.

Do I have to watch the video?

dee wrote:

@ Wisdomchaser:
Janet Mefferd is already starting to ask these questions. She is getting hounded in her emails by Driscollbots.

I really don’t like Mefford that much – I had to delete her from my Twitter feed because of her extreme Tea Party and gay-bashing rants. That said, I do admire her as one of the very few in the evangelical world willing to take on the Gospel Industrial Complex and am grateful for that.

dee wrote:

he is going to hang out with the prosperity gospel folks

I think your are correct. The whole idea that what is good and right is whatever works (draws the crowd and brings in the money) would be a good fit for him. Wait, sounds a lot like the circus.

Pray for his family. . . so sorry if there were truly threats to his family. That should not be.

But. . .

I interpret pray for his family as how is being married to Mark Driscoll. . . really???? I’ve always wondered about his treatment of his wife.

OF COURSE he likes adulation. . . lots of these guys do.

And @Nancy — you are right about the martyrs takin’ it like a man. So many examples throughout Christian history of heroic virtue in the face of persecution, slander, etc. Driscoll, so far, hasn’t qualified.

Sigh. “SEASON” is code for “the recent unpleasant-ness..which of course was not my fault.” My heart breaks for him…he should know full and well that there is no healing for a Christian without repentance…when the ailment is your own sin.

Tim wrote:

dee wrote:
I believe that Driscoll is going to do exactly what Furtick has done. he is going to hang out with the prosperity gospel folks.
Are the people who put on that conference in the prosperity camp?

well, let’s see– one of Morris’ books is “The Blessed Life: The Simple Secret of Achieving Guaranteed Financial Results” and pastor Furtick was last night’s main speaker….

First, full disclosure: I am a member of Gateway Church in Texas, and Robert Morris is my pastor. I do not know Pastor Morris personally, but I have been blessed by his preaching since joining Gateway in 2011. Gateway Church is NOT a “wealth and prosperity” church; Pastor Morris’ theology is more in line with James Robison and Jack Hayford than the Osteen-Crouch-Copeland crowd.
Second, I appreciate the role Wartburg Watch has played in shedding light on church leaders who have run roughshod over their followers and whose ministry has turned toxic. It is no small thing to bring such preachers to a place of repentance and brokenness.
Finally, I understand that many commentators on this Web site are not Christ followers. As citizens of the Interwebs, you are free to apply whatever standard of judgment you see fit for Mark Driscoll’s missing your expectations of him as a pastor and church leader: Electronically string him up, flay him in the public square, kick him when he’s down, accuse him of whatever you want, and cyber-saptially chew him up and spit him out with your vituperative comments and suspicious asides.
However, for those who are Christ followers, regardless of how angry we might be about Mark Driscoll — and deservedly so because he has acted pridefully, self-centeredly, and unrighteously — we are compelled to follow the instructions of the Apostle Paul set forth in Galatians 6:1-5, the passage Pastor Morris quoted in his introduction. Be careful you do not sow anger, because it is anger you will reap.

GSD wrote:

So Driscoll made the mistake of preaching 50 times a year for 10-12 years? Shocking! As someone who works a corporate job and runs a business on the side, I really wonder if these guys could handle working in the “real world.”
And the martyr comp!ex continues, with no mention of the pile of bodies behind the bus.

I don’t think this guy could teach school……what would he do if he had 4-6 different lessons to prep a day? And do it for 30 years?

@ Brent:
BTW, someone please wake me up when MD demonstrates “repentance” (by any definition) or “brokenness”…

Brent wrote:

However, for those who are Christ followers, regardless of how angry we might be about Mark Driscoll — and deservedly so because he has acted pridefully, self-centeredly, and unrighteously — we are compelled to follow the instructions of the Apostle Paul set forth in Galatians 6:1-5, the passage Pastor Morris quoted in his introduction. Be careful you do not sow anger, because it is anger you will reap.

Could you provide a link to one of your comments where you called for Mark Driscoll to be careful not to sow anger because he will reap anger?

Also, could you provide a link to one of your comments where you admonish yourself and others who are apologists for Driscoll to “follow the instructions of the Apostle Paul” regarding elder qualifications and rebuking an elder who sins publicly?

That would be helpful in this discussion. Thanks.

Thanks.

@ Brent:
You can dismiss all this if you want as the ranting of pagans, or bitter people, or people with anger issues if that makes you feel better. But speaking for myself, I have been a believer for a long time and I know many very mature and wise believers (including many with decades of missions and leadership experience) who are appalled at Mark Driscoll’s behavior and do not believe he should be in a position of leadership and that he needs to face the damage he has done and go through some real repentance. Write us off if you want, but that doesn’t change the reality.

@ refugee:
Isn’t that called NPD?
“Narcissistic Personality Disorder is characterized by a long-standing pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), an overwhelming need for admiration, and usually a complete lack of empathy toward others.”
Source:http://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder-symptoms/

Brent wrote:

However, for those who are Christ followers, regardless of how angry we might be about Mark Driscoll — and deservedly so because he has acted pridefully, self-centeredly, and unrighteously — we are compelled to follow the instructions of the Apostle Paul set forth in Galatians 6:1-5, the passage Pastor Morris quoted in his introduction. Be careful you do not sow anger, because it is anger you will reap.

Brent you make an extrapolation with your biblical reference that I don’t believe ties into the heart of the text. I am not saying we should fail to forgive Driscoll or even restore him to fellowship with his church or another. I do believe under the text of qualifications for elders outlined by Paul in the pastoral epistles that Driscoll has permanently disqualified himself from ministry. Just by the “above reproach” qualification he has fallen short. We are called to be discerning of our leaders and rebuke them when they are wrong.
I am deeply disturbed by the trend in evangelical circles to find ways of “restoring” our favorite pastors after a “season” of counseling or stepping away from the pulpit. Honestly, I see nothing like that in the Bible. It’s a process we have created that helps to fill the narcissistic egos of rock star pastors that love the limelight. The church at large in America left the rails a long time ago. I am thankful for the non-famous, small church pastor who may be working a second job just to make ends meet while he faithfully preaches God’s word. We need more leaders like that and not Driscoll.
The video made me nauseous, btw, and I saw it as nothing less than manipulative. Giving him the stage and a format to present his “side” of the story was nothing less than reckless.

@ Brent:
Brent: First, I find it sad that you state: “: I am a member of Gateway Church in Texas, and Robert Morris is my pastor. I do not know Pastor Morris personally,” My first reaction was what???? That is either too big of a church or the wrong pastor. I come from a church of over 2,000 people and know my pastor, his wife, and family personally. I even know his father and mother personally. I find knowing them personally to be important because although I listen to other ministers online, radio etc. my main habitat spiritually is my home church. I also know the co-ministers personally. One tends to get coldness and a numbers atmosphere more than a family atmosphere if one does not know the minister personally. It also means he may have a fence around him hands off approach which is never good and leads to non-compassion.

Look at verse 3(the most overlooked verse) in Galatians 6:1-5.? This seems to be Mark Driscoll’s biggest obstacle. If he is lying, unrepentant, hurting others extensively, verbally beating women, all of which he has done, then says he is the victim, how is that going with Galatians 6? IT seems to me there is more allowing him to be the victim, than lovingly taking him aside and mentoring him on his sins. That is not following Galatians 6.

@ Brent:
Hi Brent.Apart from the relatively lesser matters of plagiarism,cussing from the pulpit, stating the Bible teaches oral sex, bullying, misusing church funds to make his book a NYT best seller etc., he tore many lives to pieces through his personal attacks and shunning practices, yet he is not even prepared to take his own medicine and expects to go scot free. Sad man indeed or rather: sad little boy.

william wallace wrote:

MD expected his leaders to listen up and take their medicine if they were being disciplined, sadly he is not man enough to do it himself.Poor wee boy, give him some sweeties so he doesn’t feel bad about all the damage he has caused!

bwahahahahhahahahahaha 😀

Brent wrote:

Electronically string him up, flay him in the public square, kick him when he’s down, accuse him of whatever you want, and cyber-saptially chew him up and spit him out with your vituperative comments and suspicious asides.

Since you are addressing non-believers, I must say that this is a novel approach to winning them to Christ. In addition to noting your hyperbolic language, I would draw your attention to the fact that Jesus and Paul both confronted false teachers and preachers with winsome and delightful language like calling them “whited sepulchres full of dead men’s bones.” And such they were and are, since their words lead to death by their laws, their love of money, and their lust for power and influence and the praise of men.

Their way is not the way to the life found in Christ.

I think I need Nick’s assistance. I cannot discern the difference between deluded fanboys, spoofers of fanboys, and real trolls.

This thread has Brent, the last one had Phillip, and before that was Beasley. Surely they cannot be serious.

Help, Nick!

JeffT wrote:

On a side-note, these people need to drop the word “season” from their lingo – it’s become some sort of mantra for them.

I think this is the season of Fall for Mark Driscoll. His season before this one was called Pride.

MD should be being protected from the temptation to go up on a stage & talk about his woes….I am sorry from the heart his children might be affected in anyway, let alone the ways his stories tell it, if true. His little lad could have done with a bit more knowledge about what was going on so he didn’t fear the helicopters. And as said above, many of those under the bus have kids too. What about them?
Is this what resigning looks like? Is this what a repentant man heartsick about his failures does? That video was so hideous I don’t quite know how to express it, even apart from the US/UK religious cultural divide. I hope the preacher is not the snake oil salesman he comes across as.

Gram3 wrote:

I cannot discern the difference between deluded fanboys, spoofers of fanboys, and real trolls.
This thread has Brent, the last one had Phillip, and before that was Beasley. Surely they cannot be serious.

Oh my. You should see what it is like at YRR ground zero. Yes, they are serious and this is really how they think and are convinced it is sound thinking and biblical. It is chilling.

It is a very unbrave new world.

Brent wrote:

However, for those who are Christ followers, regardless of how angry we might be about Mark Driscoll — and deservedly so because he has acted pridefully, self-centeredly, and unrighteously — we are compelled to follow the instructions of the Apostle Paul set forth in Galatians 6:1-5, the passage Pastor Morris quoted in his introduction. Be careful you do not sow anger, because it is anger you will reap.

Angry? I am disgusted that so many people could have even begun to think Driscoll had anything at all to do with Jesus Christ for so many years. It has been the Driscoll show with JEsus Christ as the assessory marketing bait

It only goes to show how gullible we can all be and how badly we need to be “lone ranger” Christians and get to know Jesus Christ personally…real personal…. and not through a charlatan like Driscoll. MH has been nothing but one giant group think for many years. Do you know how bad it has to get in a shepherding cult to have happen what has happened? Real bad. The fact your pastor is trying to rehab Mark ought to give you chills. Mark needs to go away with his pile of severance cash. The last thing he needs for his soul is a “stage”.

Do people actually believe Driscoll has been presenting the true Jesus Christ for all these years? Does your pastor think he was for all those years? That is the question you need to ask yourself.

It is time for folks to grow up and stop trying to know or understand Jesus Christ through a guy on a stage with a christianese title.

I checked Mr. Morris’s twitter page. He posts pics and links for some of the speakers at the conference, but not Mr. Driscoll. I’m glad.

@ Lydia:

I would suggest that many evangelcials can’t talk about gay marriage since many took no stand on no fault divorce years ago. Furthermore I would also venture to suggest that many evangelicals can’t speak about gay sex since they held up a pastor who talked about the Biblical basis of anal sex. I find this situation to grow weirder, weirder, and weirder.

So so sad and conflicted this morning. About 3 years ago we left SGM. We found healing and hope at Gateway church. I know we are not the only survivors of spiritual abuse who found help at Gateway. To see Driscoll spoken of as a victim with no mention of those he has hurt by Robert Morris is beyond disheartening, discouraging and outright disappointing.

I am all for seeing Driscoll repent, seek forgiveness, bring restitution where appropriate to those he has hurt and THEN be restored to fellowship but not to return to ministry.

To the many people hurt by Driscoll, I am so sorry. You have at least one sister at Gateway who understands how painful this must be for you.

Lydia wrote:

Yes, they are serious and this is really how they think and are convinced it is sound thinking and biblical.

They are worshiping. They are drooling. They are fainting like tweens at a rock concert. They are parroting. They are emoting with love and with rage. They are doing other things, but they are certainly *not* thinking rationally or Biblically.

This was at Robert Morris’ church. I’ve read and heard stories about him and his church. It makes me want to puke that he’s acting as a Driscoll apologist.

I’ve heard some of Morris’ sermons on TV (he has a weekly TV series), some of it doesn’t sound too objectionable, but he also teaches incorrect stuff on occasion.

Morris teaches if you don’t tithe your money to the church, that God will punish you – he will allow Satan to break up your marriage, etc etc.

I think FBC Jax Watchdog has covered Morris’ manipulative teachings. Like in this post:
“Robert Morris Lays Down the Law: Non-Tithers are “Arrogant” and “Thieves” And Subject to Demon Possession”
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2013/10/robert-morris-lays-down-law-non-tithers.html

I don’t think holding Driscoll and other abusive pastors responsible for their actions is the same as “crucifying him,” as Morris was maintaining in this video.

Driscoll is not one of the wounded, either – the victims of his bullying behavior over the last decade or more are the wounded.

Driscoll is not, far as I can tell, even a Christian (going by the New Testament’s criteria of outward behavior of what one can expect to see in a self professing believer), and as I explained in previous posts. He’s a wolf and should be called out for being one, not given a platform in churches.

Morris is aiding and abetting a bully wolf.

dee wrote:

GSD wrote:
And the martyr comp!ex continues, with no mention of the pile of bodies behind the bus.
That is the TWW prime directive. If there is no mention of the victims, it is all bull.

The Party Can Do No Wrong, Comrade.
doubleplusungood doubleplusunevents.

GSD wrote:
I really wonder if these guys could handle working in the “real world.”
Can you imagine these guys living with only two weeks vacation a year? They see themselves as a different class of people.

Highborn straight out of Game of Thrones.
The lowborn only exist for their convenience and to die at their command.

Gram3 wrote:

Lydia wrote:
Yes, they are serious and this is really how they think and are convinced it is sound thinking and biblical.
They are worshiping. They are drooling. They are fainting like tweens at a rock concert. They are parroting. They are emoting with love and with rage. They are doing other things, but they are certainly *not* thinking rationally or Biblically.

“SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE! FUEHRER! FUEHRER! FUEHRER!”
— Leon Uris, describing a Nuremberg Rally in Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin

Doug wrote:

How do I know that what I am seeing is His church?

If someone does not resemble Christ, then it is quite possible that he or she is not in Christ. Certainly, if an under-shepherd treats his flock in an abusive way or for his own purposes, then he is nothing like the True Shepherd.

Jesus did not do his miracles to raise money for himself. Jesus did not turn stones into bread. Jesus did not sell his message. Jesus did not use his sheep. Jesus fed his sheep and led them to water. Jesus died for his sheep.

If we are in Christ, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit who testifies to the truth, and we have the words of the Holy Spirit. If we spent more time in God’s word and less time listening to and paying people to lie to us about what God has said, we would be able to tell them apart.

As for why God lets them go, I have no idea. The only thing I’ve been able to come up with is that we know whose sheep we are by the shepherd we follow. If someone is following Driscoll or Morris or Osteen or MacDonald or any of the Gospel Glitterati, then I think it would be wise for them to consider why they are listening to a voice that does not sound like the voice of the True Shepherd and consider what the implications of that might be.

Lydia wrote:

Oh my. You should see what it is like at YRR ground zero. Yes, they are serious and this is really how they think and are convinced it is sound thinking and biblical. It is chilling.

The Utter Righteousness of Perfect Ideology.
Like the Khmer Rouge and the Taliban.

@ Nancy:

He tries to present a picture that he does not deserve his troubles and poor pitiful little boy-child. We have had centuries upon centuries of martyrs who went to their deaths with less whining that this. What? Don’t do this to me because I have children? Really? The people he threw under the bus had children also.

Driscoll brought all this on himself.

If and when you consistently act as a bully and show no regard for other people, as he does, do not be surprised when and if people do things like leave rusty nails on your drive way.

Note I am not condoning anyone leaving nails on Driscoll’s drive way, or sending death threats, or throwing rocks at his home (assuming he’s telling the truth on this), but it’s understandable.

Does Morris have nothing to say about Driscoll’s incredibly crass, sexist statements about women and sex through the years, and that he grills them in private about their sexual fantasies?

All that is highly inappropriate behavior, but Driscoll has a long standing track record of that.

Driscoll said some guy or another at his church should not be allowed on stage because the guy was overweight (I believe Driscoll used the phrase “his fat ass should not be on stage,” or some such).

Morris is defending a bully.

This happened to me as a kid and teen growing up. I’d get bullied day in and day out by the same kids, over and over, and the teachers would not defend me.

My Mom taught me to be quiet and suffer the bullying in silence, so I usually did.
On the few occasions I snapped and fought back, I, the victim, got blamed by the teacher. The bullies were not held accountable, but I was, and I was merely defending myself. It’s the same dynamic here with Morris defending Driscoll.

I also had an abusive boss as an adult. She was so nasty, everyone at the job hated her and nobody wanted to show up at the office every day. She treated people horribly, so people would avoid her, have as little to do with her as possible. And she noticed.

She then had the audacity to act hurt or offended – she was creating the very dynamic she was bristling against! She expected that people should act friendly and happy to see her, in spite of the fact she harassed people on the job daily.

If you treat people like trash on a recurrent basis, and it’s not justified, do not be surprised if they eventually avoid you, or throw rocks at your house, or whatever, and do not act like the victim.

Regarding:

What? Don’t do this to me because I have children? Really?

Some people think having children excuses them from the rules and behavior other people should or must follow.

See this page:
If you run over someone’s foot with your stroller, please say you’re sorry
http://qz.com/277626/if-you-run-over-someones-foot-with-your-stroller-please-say-youre-sorry/

Dave A A wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
GW Insida wrote:
but rather the Provision Gospel

I misread it as the Pornovision Gospel…. Sigh….

Considering just who we’re talking about, that’s not a misread, that’s discernment.

Deb wrote:

Yes, but remember that Driscoll-esque voice that responded to the reporter “Wrong address”???

Both Driscoll and his former board were careful to point to the regrettable sins of 14 years ago. I believe that the Barking Dog incident was a bit more recent. He could have apologized last night for lying to the reporter. Instead, he’s making bank off the media’s supposed persecution.

Nancy wrote:

Start with Irenaeus and Tertullian to get a feel for what I am saying. So they fought the battle for orthodoxy, won the battle though not completely getting rid of the “heretical” ideas, and today we honor them as church fathers and heroes of the faith.

I’d just note here that Tertullian’s writings are included in the Early Church Fathers, but he is considered suspect because he moved to Montanism towards the end of his life. One of the small academic parlor games of scholars of early Christian writings is to try and determine which of Tertullian’s writings was composed when he was orthodox and when he was a Montanist. This is not an entirely fruitless discussion because his writings are not dated, and classifying them is useful in determining “early” and “late” documents.

He’s not been entirely written out of Christian history because he did come up with the Latin word “trinitas” but he was not always orthodox. For what it’s worth…

Looks like it’s time to dust off and update my second-generation filk of Lullaby for a Princess:

“Once did a Preacher who outshone the Son
Look out on his kingdom and sigh:
‘Surely in the world there can be no Preacher
as Righteous and Godly and Manly as I’…

“So great was his reign, so brilliant his Glory
That long was the shadow he cast;
A shadow that fell o’er the sheep of his flock
And grew ever Darker as days and nights passed…

“Yet such is the lure of the limelight, how sweetly
It takes over the mind of its host;
And that foolish Preacher did nothing to stop
The destruction of those who had needed him most…”

@ dee:
Thanks for confirming my gut feeling. Something was fishy there.

JeffT wrote:

I really don’t like Mefford that much – I had to delete her from my Twitter feed because of her extreme Tea Party and gay-bashing rants

I’ve raised this issue with you before, I have no idea if you saw it, but Mefferd is not a “gay basher.”

Disagreeing with homosexual behavior and the homosexual militant tendency to silence Christians and make Christian bakers and photographers go out of business over not being on board with participating against their wishes in homosexual weddings is not “gay bashing.”

You have a lesbian mayor of Houston trying to intimidate local preachers who were opining against the “bathroom bill” there by subpoenaing their sermons.

Homosexual lobbies do not care about the rights of Christians or others to publicly express disagreement with them.

I’ve listened to many of Mefferd’s her programs, and I don’t recall her ever mentioning the Tea Party. I have no idea if she agrees with them or not, but so what if she does?

dee wrote:

Andy wrote:
Do I have to watch the video?

Bless your heart…I give you absolution for not watching it.

For Andy and others who, like me, could not stomach watching the video, here’s Warren Throckmorton’s transcript of Mr. Morris and Mr. Driscoll at the Gateway conference: http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/files/2014/10/Transcript-Robert-Morris-Mark-Driscoll.pdf

@ Doug:

I think we should not tolerate sin in our own lives, and we need others to help us see the sin and deal with it. And occasionally to discern the difference between real guilt and and overly tender conscience.

False teachers are wolves and must be exposed and denounced. Their followers may be participants or they may be well-meaning but deceived. We should help them see the truth if we have the opportunity and if they are willing.

There is no question that teachers will be held to a higher standard, not the lower or different standard that is prevalent in the church as we have seen demonstrated with Mahaney and Driscoll and their Gospel Glitterati enablers and apologists.

Dee, I have never been put moderation!!! Did I step on any toes???

GW Insida wrote:

He rakes in well over $10 million per month by convincing his sheep that God is FORCED to curse them if they don’t give the full 10%.

That was what I wanted to point out.

I’ve seen Morris’s show many times the last couple years, and he is often a guest speaker on other preacher’s TV shows.

TBN likes to air snippets of him speaking about money during their “Praise A Thon” shows, when they are trying to hoodwink folks into sending them money.

Where I think Morris differs is that rather than the usual, positive prosperity gospel propaganda, he presents the negative form.

That is, the typical positive PG pushers will tell audiences if they donate money, God will reward them with big cars, houses, and financial stability.

What Morris usually does (at least on occasions I’ve heard him speak on TV) is to present the case in the negative:
If and when you do not give the church your money, God will allow you to get cancer, God will forcefully take your money from you so that you go into poverty, God will cause your spouse to divorce you, etc.

The terminology game is funny to me. You or someone above said Morris does not like to use the phrase “prosperity Gospel” so he used the word “provision.” pat Robertson likes to use the phrase “the law of recipprocity.”

It all comes down to the same thing, though: if you send these people your money, God will send you money, will restore your dying marriage, or grant you a healing and/or God will send you cancer, divorce, and poverty if you do not send them money.

How these guys can sit there with a straight face and say, “we don’t teach the prosperity Gospel,” but then teach that very thing but just slap another label on it, and think they’re fooling anyone, is beyond me.

__

“There is no spoon.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtO5dMqEI

hmmm…

There is no Paul Tripp.

http://paultripp.com/articles/posts/mars-hill-boaa-statement

There is no problem?

SKreeeeeeeeeetch !

Mars Hill: “The church that ran over people?”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9oYSawDEkA&feature

🙁

—

Along the same lines of Morris giving a platform to Driscoll, on today’s 700 Club show, Pat Robertson had Dave Ramsey on and let Ramsey talk for ten or more minutes.

It’s sad how some self professing Christians give despots, wolves, or false teachers a free pass.

“Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Christian Money Guru Dave Ramsey’s Social Media Witch Hunt”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/29/spies-cash-and-fear-inside-christian-money-guru-dave-ramsey-s-social-media-witch-hunt.html

When critics appeared online, employees say the evangelical financial whiz went ballistic, allegedly firing innocent employees and offering bounties for information.

I can’t wait to get home so I can watch this video. I read Throckmorton’s transcript. Unbelievable….

From internal evidence, Steve Taylor wrote this song about Gothard, but it applies equally well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKlZ7U67Uio

dee wrote:

@ Doug:
Read my post tomorrow. i am going to give some suggestions to the sheep who are getting antsy!!!

I think I found the illustration for your post:

http://janeannthompson.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/464343d34d25ba55f336a562eb58317a.jpg

@ Nancy:

Nancy if you were being rhetorical please forgive me. His target audience were young Driscoll wannabe Acts 29 church planters. You must understand that the highest calling for an Acts 29 pastor’s wife is sex. I am loath to repeat what Driscoll told them in exact phrasing but basically it was she should offer it up during her monthly so her husband can be satisfied.

Do you know what has protected Driscoll the most for all these years? The fact that nobody wants to be the one who repeats Driscollisms to their church friends. One could provide links but many of them tended to disappear. It is interesting how his vulgarity has actually protected him in evangelical circles. I have been on pro Driscoll SbC pastor blogs and read some commenters who tried to quote Driscoll verbatim and were chided for being vulgar while at the same time the pastor bloggers defended Driscoll that he preached the gospel! That is how bizarre the situation has been over the last 10 years.

Now many of them are claiming they never agreed with Driscoll but we are too ‘gleeful’ about his fall. (They said the same thing about Mahaneys fall)

So once again we are the ‘real sinners’.

  __

“Brick By Brick?”

hmmm…

Sure Pal, we’re still lõõkin’ for da m@chete collaborative story…

—

elizabetta carerra wrote:

I’ve always wondered about his treatment of his wife.

As have I. His family needs prayer,

Randy wrote:

I am deeply disturbed by the trend in evangelical circles to find ways of “restoring” our favorite pastors after a “season” of counseling or stepping away from the pulpit. Honestly, I see nothing like that in the Bible.

Totally agree with you here. It’s a scandal. (And “woe to them from whom scandal comes”).

Lydia wrote:

Nancy if you were being rhetorical please forgive me. His target audience were young Driscoll wannabe Acts 29 church planters.

i.e. Driscolljugend. Did they have colored shirts, short pants, Sam Brownes, and appropriate Mars Hill armbands?

You must understand that the highest calling for an Acts 29 pastor’s wife is sex.

i.e. she’s his Penis Home(TM). Fulfilling every one of ManaGAWD’s pent-up fantasies and kinks while breathlessly praising him for his Manly Manliness and Prowess.

Watched the video; my eyes rolled so hard, they nearly fell out of my head. The whole thing could be paraphrased as, “His only real crime…was caring too much.” Awww, look at how humble he is, reducing himself to be ministered to like a commoner!

All I ever hear from Driscoll’s supporters is that we should “go easy on him”. It’s not like we want to throw him to hungry tigers; we’d just like him to find a different line of work. Maybe something outdoors. That sounds manly enough.

Doug wrote:

The fact that it goes on means that I should “chew the fish but spit out the bones”, which seemed like really bad advice to me. My question to him was, How do I know that what I am seeing is His church? It doesn’t match what I read in the NT. How would you have answered that?

My grandmother used to tell about a woman she knew in her youth who literally “chewed the fish & spit out the bones”; she died of peritonitis when she accidentally swallowed a bone……And then she would say, “That’s why we have to be so careful about the people whose advice we listen to”.
Not, perhaps, a complete answer, but an answer of sorts.

Tim wrote:

dee wrote:

Andy wrote:
Do I have to watch the video?

Bless your heart…I give you absolution for not watching it.

For Andy and others who, like me, could not stomach watching the video, here’s Warren Throckmorton’s transcript of Mr. Morris and Mr. Driscoll at the Gateway conference: http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/files/2014/10/Transcript-Robert-Morris-Mark-Driscoll.pdf

Thank you, Tim. I have enough trouble with my electrolytes without inducing projectile vomiting by watching Marky prance.

Robert Morris makes my skin crawl. He is ALL about the money. You just know he is manipulating you as soon as he opens his mouth.

you eastern time peeps really scared me-just had to look at the clock-surely it’s not 5:50 yet?!
Lol
Melody wrote:

I haven’t been able to watch anything where he speaks since attempting to watch him “respond” to Phil Johnson back in the day (which was a Weds… I digress).
“He speaks with forked tongue” comes to mind.

Tim wrote:

I couldn’t even get through the introduction, so I didn’t make it to the part where Mr. Driscoll speaks.

I don’t believe his little sob story one bit. He is full of it. He is going full blown T.V. ministry now. He will end up with a show and be on TBN where the money is at soon.

@ Daisy:

I don’t want to hijack this thread into one about Mefford, but I respectfully disagree. I think that someone who refers to those who promote an issue of interest to gays as the “Gaystapo” is gay-bashing. On the Tea Party issue, while she may not describe herself as such, she takes a lot of the same positions – her frequent anti-Obama and anti-Islam Tweets are two examples and, in my opinion, border on hysteria.

I’m seeing a double-standard at work among some commentators here. When someone claims that they have been abused, no matter what sort of abuse is alleged, we are to take their claim at face value. However, when Mark Driscoll claims to have suffered in any fashion, or claims that his family has been threatened, those claims are presumed false until proven true.

I’m no fan of Driscoll. He’s a pompous, self-aggrandizing camera hog. He created a cult of personality where his word was law and rules could be changed at his whim. He did a lot of damage to his church and to many individuals and families associated with him. He does not belong in front of a group of any size. He’s not qualified to lead, and if he’s genuinely repentant, will disappear from public life for his own good and that of his family so that he can work on healing the damage he has done.

However, having said that, I don’t see how any of that merits treating his claims as lies. Sure, he’s portraying himself as a victim, but that doesn’t mean that he isn’t. Victimizers can also be victims, and anyone really interested in pursuing truth and justice will apply the same standards to Driscoll’s claims that they do to the claims of Driscoll’s victims.

Toffeemama wrote:

Watched the video; my eyes rolled so hard, they nearly fell out of my head. The whole thing could be paraphrased as, “His only real crime…was caring too much.” Awww, look at how humble he is, reducing himself to be ministered to like a commoner!

i.e. “POOR POOR POOR MEEEEEEE!”

Remember how sociopaths are masters at the sympathy ploy when they get caught? I’ve seen it in action, with the Repentance and Sincere Remorse clicked on and off like a light switch (click! click! click!); it’s why I’m so skeptical about Poor Poor Me.

And that should be “HUMBLE(TM)”. Complete with liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before him to announce how HUMBLE(TM) he is.

@ Dave S:
@ JeffT:
The wolf has cried WOLF!! far to often to be believed at face value. With most victims this is not so.

Just watched the video, even after the fair warning.

Couple of questions for Brent and Phillip and all of the SBC fanboys who are responsible for recognizing wolves and for protecting the flock from them. This is the man you’ve gushed over and defended over the years? This is your idea of what a real man is? Pathetic.

John Piper, you are pathetic, too, for praising this man and his doctrine. Wayne Grudem and Bruce Ware and the others who taught at Mars Hill Churchcorp, you are pathetic, too, for teaching him your vile misogyny and pretending he is a shepherd while he poisoned thousands with what you taught. Tim Keller and every single man on the Council of The Gospel Coalition, you are pathetic for turning a blind eye to this man as long as he served your interests and didn’t embarrass you. You made a lot of money off of him and his disciples, but now you want to distance yourself as if you never knew him. No, you stood side-by-side with him and you own him. Every single one of you own him until you repent of what you and he have taught and return to God’s word and Jesus’ example.

Real men and women have moral courage. It’s time to show some if you are real shepherds and really care for the people you should protect.

Dave S wrote:

I’m seeing a double-standard at work among some commentators here. When someone claims that they have been abused, no matter what sort of abuse is alleged, we are to take their claim at face value. However, when Mark Driscoll claims to have suffered in any fashion, or claims that his family has been threatened, those claims are presumed false until proven true.

I think you are misreading what is going on here. He is clearly an abuser who has manipulated countless adults. What you are seeing is the reaction of people who have seen this act before by abusers. There is always a “reason” their abuses should be overlooked and why they are the real victims.

There is a large record of his abuses. I’m waiting for documentation of any of the threats or actions alleged to have been perpetrated toward him.

No double standard, just common sense and experience.

__

@ william wallace

Has MD. fallen into his own wood-chipper?

—

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

And I think Christianese Purity Culture makes it worse.

Are there that many adolescent males who buy into the purity culture mystique? It wasn’t around when I was young or when my children were young, so I have no first hand observations of it or its impact on young people. That doesn’t mean we were all out living like bunny rabbits, but it does mean that the thinking was from a different angle.

Gram3 wrote:

I think you are misreading what is going on here. He is clearly an abuser who has manipulated countless adults. What you are seeing is the reaction of people who have seen this act before by abusers. There is always a “reason” their abuses should be overlooked and why they are the real victims.
There is a large record of his abuses. I’m waiting for documentation of any of the threats or actions alleged to have been perpetrated toward him.
No double standard, just common sense and experience.

No, I don’t think I’m misreading anything. Clearly, several folks seem quite willing to doubt everything he says while giving the benefit of the doubt to the folks labeled as victims. Yet they don’t really know the victims except through their published stories any more than they know Driscoll except through the stories of the victims.

An impartial inquirer has to weigh the evidence, pro and con, supporting each side of the story. After all, isn’t it possible that in at least some cases we haven’t heard the full truth? Maybe some of Driscoll’s victims have exaggerated or told half-truths. Maybe some of them have crafted their stories to remove any hint of wrongdoing on their part. Perhaps some victim really isn’t a victim at all. This is all speculation on my part, but it underscores the importance of asking the right questions, of withholding judgement until a thorough examination of the facts has been made, and, most importantly, being unbiased in doing so.

Having visited this blog numerous times, I’ve come to realize that, for all the good it does in pointing out genuine abuse, it is not a fair and impartial tribunal. There seems to be an odd bias, partly theological in nature, that tends to taint the discussion. For example, would it have hurt to say in this article that TWW prays for the safety of the Driscoll family if the alleged threats of physical violence are true? And even if it is the case that many abusers tend to try to make themselves look like they are victims, that is not an a priori truth which justifies ignoring the possibility that, at times, they may actually be victims themselves.

Link was posted by the individual 15 minutes ago.

Dave S wrote:

Having visited this blog numerous times, I’ve come to realize that, for all the good it does in pointing out genuine abuse, it is not a fair and impartial tribunal. There seems to be an odd bias, partly theological in nature, that tends to taint the discussion.

I have specifically said that we should pray for the safety of Driscoll’s family, particularly his wife.

This is not a tribunal or a courtroom. It is a blog where people share their perspectives on various issues. No one pretends that this blog is not about various abuses occurring within Christianity.

If we haven’t met your standards of equity, then I suppose that you are setting yourself up as a tribunal of sorts to judge those here. If it upsets you, then just don’t read here. Or, if you have a particular objection to something said here, then raise that objection. But be specific so that you can receive a proper response.

Do you want some acknowledgement that it is possible that Driscoll’s family has been threatened? OK, it is possible. I pray that no one would take revenge for Driscoll’s sins on his family.

Howeever, what I clearly see in this video is a manipulator. He had a limited amount of time to speak. He could have used that time to acknowledge the pain he has caused a lot of people, including the children of a lot of men he tossed out for disagreeing with the Emperor. That would have been the way of repentance rather than unbroken arrogance and defiance.

But he did not do that. He used every tick of the clock to complain about how hard life has been for him. Pardon me if I send my regrets to his pity party. I remain concerned for his wife’s welfare, since the man is a proven misogynist and bully, an now he is, from all appearances, a wounded narcissist. That’s a dangerous combination.

dee wrote:

And anyone who threatens anybody should be reported to the police. I wonder if Driscoll has reported these incidents to the police.

If he didn’t report threats to the police, he certainly should have done. There would be police reports available. Once I had to report a stalker, and the police were quite willing to deal with that and write it up.

Until I see a police report and some evidence, I say it is more likely to be, at best, confabulation. I think it is more likely to be a totally fabricated exploitation of his children for his own benefit.

Dave S wrote:

There seems to be an odd bias, partly theological in nature,

Well, I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. His theology is vulgar, misogynistic, authoritarian, and is best described as Driscollism. It certainly is not Biblical Christianity.

What did you mean? Do you have a theological bias which predisposes you to the judgments you have reached about the folks at TWW?

Dave S wrote:

There seems to be an odd bias, partly theological in nature,

An odd bias?
Yep, Driscoll has a very odd bias when he approaches scripture.
He twists scripture to say what he wants rather than studying it to show himself approved. Many of us disagree with him because of HIS odd bias toward scripture, and other things.

@ Sean:
Sean: I tried to do a search and found nothing. I am just not buying it.

Daisy wrote:

You have a lesbian mayor of Houston trying to intimidate local preachers who were opining against the “bathroom bill” there by subpoenaing their sermons.

I’ve seen a piece on this too. It seems to me from this side of the Pond that American evangelicals need to wake up and see that ‘separation of church and state’ only applies in one direction – the church or religion should have no say in govt. Doesn’t seem to apply the other way round – unless at some point a court prevents this kind of behaviour.

@ Persephone:

So let us say that she has some serious post partum problems. There is surgery available for that. So he uses this as an excuse for his little recommendation there. Hey, I bet they have enough money to pay for the surgery even if their health insurance does not. Soooo, what is the problem here? You may be correct, but I don’t see that as an excuse at all.

I don’t have high expectations for MD, but I am shocked that less than a week after announcing his resignation he shows up on another stage pitching his sob story. He obviously left his PR team at MH because wow, what a dumb move.

MD gets run over by his own bus, but he deserves all the sympathy. SMH

“It’s one thing to joke around with your best friend, but I have a mixed audience, and am representing the church proper right now, can’t say it!”

So while in the context of a few friends I might put something “crassly” I can’t record that conversation, put it on the internet, and then complain when people criticize me because they are, “missing the context”

Want to talk to a mixed crowd of 10k and treat it like a couple of buddies hanging in your den?

I’m hearing a double-standard or a multiple personality disorder here. I want to ask, “will the real so-and-so” please stand up! Should believers have one persona for private and one for public when it comes to morality, course jesting, etc.?

@ Victorious:

Let me clarify….Every day healthy and well adjusted adults recognize that different contexts require different behaviors. For instance, what is perfectly acceptable for me to wear while mowing my lawn on saturday morning is not what I should wear to a job interview. To think that I can act the same regardless of the situation speaks to a clear disconnect.

I am not saying that I sit around with my buddies and riff a bunch of George Carlin/Richard Pryor esque comedy routines….I mean, that what I would say in certain private contexts is not appropriate for wider audiences. Healthy people recognize that. For example, a close younger friend that I have “mentored” for years was doing something stupid in the context of how he was responding to his wife. After listening to him and him seeking some support for his idiocy….I simply said, “I love you man, but you gotta get your head out of your a**, you are completely in the wrong and you have to go apologize”. The context and history of our relationship put that statement in a context that it was responded to positively and in no way offended. I was later thanked and the statement was, “Thanks for telling me to get my head out of my a**, I needed that”.

I would never for the life of me see how that private conversation with a close friend should be how I would address a large and mixed group of people. It is not a sign of “hiding” the real me, it is recognizing the relationship and context of particular situations. The way you answer the phone at work is different than at home(I assume).

MD displays a startlingly lack of recognizing his audience. As I said before, the only audience he is interested in impressing seems to be himself. And so, he talks to himself in a way that he finds clever and effective and it is everyone elses fault for not understanding.

@ Adam Borsay:

I hear you and agree. With my family this transition is easier because of the markedly different situations in which we work(ed) and the fact that “uniforms” go along with it. One of the first things they taught us in the nurses training of yore was that there was a time to be professional in behavior and a time when that was not necessary. I never talked to a patient or in the hearing of a patient the way I talked to my children, either as a nurse or a doctor. When young son goes into a courtroom in uniform (moderately expensive suit, wing-tip equivalents, carefully thought out shirt and tie with/without government ID around his neck) he is no more the man we go camping with than anything. And when young daughter puts on her “school clothes” and her teacher personality then everybody stand back because whoever that is says t-e-a-c-h-e-r with its own set of behaviors and nobody had better forget it. But away from work she is hilarious and could be a stand up comic come SHTF necessity.

For everything there is a time…and a season…

MD looks and acts and talks like he does not get that idea and is proud of it. I get it that he does not wear an alb, nobody expects that, but a little respect for the function of preaching might be a good idea.
Getting down on the lowest level of his audience is not something I see Jesus or Paul or the James and Peter bunch in Jerusalem described as doing, and the writings of those guys who later wrote were not X-rated if what we have is what they wrote. But Paul at least mentions a confrontation between himself and Peter which no doubt was not the nicest thing to watch–but was not recorded in detail nor the subject of a sermon that was recorded and published and saved that we know. Never mind that Paul was trying to be all things to all men, though he himself at a personal level was not that.

So who was the real “me” the one with the white coat or the one without? Who is the real daughter, the one in the classroom or the one at home? Answer: it certainly is.

So, Adam, glad you know how to behave and when without becoming a hypocrite or a fanatic about it. I am thinking you have a hard job.

@ Dave A A:
The value, by some coincidence, is the number of a man– 666!

Ken wrote:

I’ve seen a piece on this too. It seems to me from this side of the Pond that American evangelicals need to wake up and see that ‘separation of church and state’ only applies in one direction – the church or religion should have no say in govt. Doesn’t seem to apply the other way round – unless at some point a court prevents this kind of behaviour.

When churches pay taxes, then churches can be full participants in politics. I am not in the mood to pay extra taxes so a religious organization can push its religious dogma using tax free funds.

People who think this goes only one way need to live in a monoreligious state like Utah. Once you’re in a distinct religious minority, you’ll have a greater appreciation for the separation of church and state.

🙁 Tripped it again.

@ Amy Smith:

Bloggers, media, and everyone else just need to stop calling Mark Driscoll “Pastor” Mark. It’s nauseating every time I read or hear it. He has not been a pastor for a very long time, if he ever was one.

Bridget wrote:

@ Persephone:
@ Nancy:

It’s some other reason friends.

page 164 of “Death by Love”

“My wife, Grace, and I love Gideon and thank God for him often. My wife is petite, and I have a big head, which resulted in C-sections with the birth of each of our children. Having endured one miscarriage and four C-sections, Grace was ready to be done with pregnancies. But I was not yet ready to do anything to prevent God from giving us a child.” Mark Driscoll

The fifth child was c-section as well.

Beside the fact he is a misogynistic Cretin, why on earth does he feel the need to share such private details publicly? What on earth does Mark think the take away on something like this is supposed to be and for whom? I mean if “God decides” isn’t his Sovereign God was powerful enough to override any birth control attempts if He was determined they were to have more? Sometimes these guys are just silly, too, in addition to being very creepy.

(Not only is Grace supposed to make sure she remains hot looking but is supposed to have more babies and c-sections at the same time. After all, she is exists for his satisfaction and breeding)

So how many Acts 29 guys have been trained by Driscoll and in Driscoll think? Does Matt Chandler agree with this? Mohler? Dever? They were all affirming each other not long ago.

@ Adam Borsay:

Adam, thank you for the clarification and for the examples given. I see the difference now. Much appreciated. And I agree with your comment about MD and his audience.

@ Amy Smith:

I wasn’t intending to dismiss the article at all. I read it. I agree with it. My comment was simply a side rant about Driscoll being considered, and referred to, as a “pastor.” I’ll mark my next rant as such 🙂

dee wrote:

I love the 666 value, btw.

Just to clarify– he’s not the real antichrist. My drivers license number includes 666, as does my grandson’s ss# — so it’s probably one of us!
Seriously, Driscoll linked the attacks (whether real or imaginary) with Mars Hill– as if staying and going through a restoration process would further endanger his family. Whereas talking about his family on-stage at conventions would not…. Scratching head…

Dave A A wrote:

dee wrote:
I love the 666 value, btw.
Just to clarify– he’s not the real antichrist. My drivers license number includes 666, as does my grandson’s ss# — so it’s probably one of us!
Seriously, Driscoll linked the attacks (whether real or imaginary) with Mars Hill– as if staying and going through a restoration process would further endanger his family. Whereas talking about his family on-stage at conventions would not…. Scratching head…

One thing that I think is a bit dysfunctional is when people play Spot the Antichrist. The current list of suspects includes Emperor Domitian, Emperor Diocletian, the Roman Pope, Martin Luther (one can imagine Eckert making a raspberry in saying that; it would be fitting given the quality of discourse between them, as the Martin Luther Insults app demonstrates), King Charles II, Patriarch Nikon, Patriarch Meletios, Napoleon I, Napoleon III, Hitler, and Gorbachev. If we believe the antichrist to be one person and not a metaphor for the spirit of evil that people can enslave themselves to, all of the above turned out to be false alarms.

@ Lydia:

I should have made my previous comment a little broader. All of those individuals and organizations teach that relationships are primarily based on a power order or hierarchy, whether it is male/female or clergy/laity. While the applications may look different, and even benign, the underlying theology of power is not at all Biblical. Driscoll just made plain what that theology really looks like with gender or clergy power structures in operation.

Lydia wrote:

So how many Acts 29 guys have been trained by Driscoll and in Driscoll think?

That style of thinking is pretty prevalent, actually. A subset of rednecks and a subset of good ole boys are prone to this sort of thing. But the idea that it has taken root in the church is highly disturbing, especially with somebody trying to say this is how things ought to be.

Bridget wrote:

page 164 of “Death by Love”

“My wife, Grace, and I love Gideon and thank God for him often. My wife is petite, and I have a big head, which resulted in C-sections with the birth of each of our children. Having endured one miscarriage and four C-sections, Grace was ready to be done with pregnancies. But I was not yet ready to do anything to prevent God from giving us a child.” Mark Driscoll

The fifth child was c-section as well.

This makes me feel so sorry for Grace. He knew she felt as though she couldn’t handle another c-section or potential miscarriage, but he forced her to have one anyway. And by his own admission! What a snake.

Also, if he’s so darn concerned for his family’s safety, why was he at a conference, instead of with them?

@ Doug:
You can say that, but won’t. Nor did I. That’s an Old Testament concept (Psalm 105) that was referring to something much differently than what’s going on with Mark Driscoll. As you know, there are biblical instructions about bringing accusations against men and women who are positions of church leadership, “elders” if you will, (e.g. 1 Timothy 5:19), so obviously “God’s anointed” are very much “touchable” in a New Testament church. My point is to watch yourself, as I will, as we act to bring a brother or sister in Christ to repentance and accountability.

Brent wrote:

However, for those who are Christ followers, regardless of how angry we might be about Mark Driscoll — and deservedly so because he has acted pridefully, self-centeredly, and unrighteously — we are compelled to follow the instructions of the Apostle Paul set forth in Galatians 6:1-5, the passage Pastor Morris quoted in his introduction. Be careful you do not sow anger, because it is anger you will reap.

Brent,

I would gently encourage you to distinguish between righteous anger, and unrighteous anger. Those of us who are angry at the name of Jesus being used to harm His people are by and large, full of righteous anger. Ephesians 5:6-14 tells us to expose the deeds of darkness, and that is what’s being done here. It would be a shame to the name of Christ to allow this behavior to continue without calling it out and declaring it as sinful and wrong.

Peace, K

@ mirele:
Religion and politics, the most dangerous combination if you want to get an argument going!

I do think though that those who trumpet the separation of church and state the loudest, namely secularists usually on the left, are being hypocrites if they then want to use the power of the state to determine church policy, doctrine or practice if this goes against one of their pet topics. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

KR Taylor wrote:

Brent wrote:
However, for those who are Christ followers, regardless of how angry we might be about Mark Driscoll — and deservedly so because he has acted pridefully, self-centeredly, and unrighteously — we are compelled to follow the instructions of the Apostle Paul set forth in Galatians 6:1-5, the passage Pastor Morris quoted in his introduction. Be careful you do not sow anger, because it is anger you will reap.
Brent,
I would gently encourage you to distinguish between righteous anger, and unrighteous anger. Those of us who are angry at the name of Jesus being used to harm His people are by and large, full of righteous anger. Ephesians 5:6-14 tells us to expose the deeds of darkness, and that is what’s being done here. It would be a shame to the name of Christ to allow this behavior to continue without calling it out and declaring it as sinful and wrong.
Peace, K

You don’t necessarily have to be angry to follow the mandate mentioned,,and it might be better not to be. Driscoll was consumed by anger, some of it righteous, about aspects of our society that are falling to pieces, but he let this anger consume him. God is love, and anger seems foreign to God; when our Lord drove out the money changers I imagine He was calm and collected. One of the Desert Fathers said it would be wrong to raise the dead if done in anger. Just be like Friday from Dragnet, who is not angry but rather shows a certain focused probity. I myself struggle to be calm; it’s one of my battles, but I do think that anger tends to hurt us, and I’m not sure the concept of the wrath of God can be interpreted as anger, but rather as the consuming fire that people who hate God in different ways enter into on their own, which some saints equated with Hell.

@ Brent:

I think Jesus’ ideas of leaders and leadership would be a good route.

Brent wrote:

You can say that, but won’t. Nor did I.

Missed the point.

My point is to watch yourself, as I will, as we act to bring a brother or sister in Christ to repentance and accountability.

How nice. Big assumption there tho. As others have so aptly stated, we don’t or can’t act to bring a brother or sister to what you said. And as others have also said, there is no indication that MD is a brother. He doesn’t pass the “smell test” to me, I have no personal relationship with him, nor would I ever. I make it a practice to avoid such people.
But since he put himself out there as an apostolic like authority, he can be evaluated (yes, judged) as to whether his teaching is false or not, and appropriate warnings and red flags issued. Anger has nothing to do with it.
I have seen that tactic used before to silence criticism. “Be careful you don’t respond in anger”, they’ll say, then criticize you for making observations and value judgements (I think that is called “discernment”…) and call you “unloving” for trying to protect yourself. What a load of bull-puckey.

Debbie Kaufman wrote:

One tends to get coldness and a numbers atmosphere more than a family atmosphere if one does not know the minister personally.

Debbie – That is your opinion, but it obviously is not mine. Yes, Gateway has many thousands of members, but I find a tremendous amount of spiritual fulfillment and nurturing without knowing the pastor and his family personally. In fact, I suggest that your need for a personal relationship with the pastor of your church is setting you up for pain and anger in the event that pastor or his family ever lets you down or fails to meet your expectations in some way –sort of like the reaction people are having to Mark Driscoll’s failures and failings. Pastors are just human beings like the rest of us. They sin like the rest of us. They fail like the rest of us. Mark Driscoll forgot that and tried to make himself more than who he is; that was his failure and led to his failing. Don’t put so much of the value of your church experience in personally knowing your pastor. You’ll get hurt every time.

Brent wrote:

I don’t know what you mean by “providing a link

It was an attempt at irony to demonstrate that you are quick to accuse us of anger toward Driscoll, but I’m not aware of your comment, if you made one, which addressed Driscoll’s anger toward who knows how many people. It is not a fact in dispute, by the way. Consistency would lend your viewpoint more weight.

Keith Brown wrote:

The vitriol in these comments is shocking.

The vitriol Jesus displayed toward the scribes and Pharisees is shocking. Your inability to put together a substantive critique is shocking.

What response do you think is appropriate for a false teacher and serial abuser who has been praised and promoted by so many “leaders.”

Brent wrote:

Pastors are just human beings like the rest of us. They sin like the rest of us. They fail like the rest of us.

Actually, they are a class unto themselves. The elites to whom the rules do not apply. While they do sin like the rest of us, certain sins disqualify them which you will learn IF YOU READ THE PASTORAL EPISTLES. Thought I’d shout a little since you don’t seem to be able to apply the pastorals very well though you like to tell others to read them.

Brent wrote:

Your comment is a red herring probably intended to show me up as a Pharisee or some such. I’m not, but evidently you think I am.

No, it is not a red herring. Look that up in your freshman logic textbook. It is sarcasm. Look that up in your freshman literature textbook. Right after you read the pastoral epistles. You could start in 1 Timothy 3.

Brent wrote:

And, as you’re responding to that, make sure you explain where Mark Driscoll has to do those things to your satisfaction? Perhaps you would be better served to wake yourself up from your nap — you are sleeping through all this, right? — and read some of the Apostle Paul’s Pastoral Epistles.

MD does not have to satisfy me at all. I never said that he did. But I do take many naps per day, between reading comments on TWW. 🙂 That said…
As someone who has suffered at the hands of the Neo-Cal/MD clones, who belongs to a church that has been under attack by said clones for three years, my entire Christian experience has been like being dropped into the middle of a battle without any training, and having to figure out on my own what is going on. TWW has helped me tremendously in that effort, and provides a perspective that I can not get anywhere else. Coupled with my reading of those pesky Epistles (along with the rest of what God has to say) even a novice like me can see that MD & Company is a nightmare.
Robert Morris / et al., appear to be as well. And since SBTS is moving in to our state by expansion of their brand, I can look to more of this nonsense, not less. So it matters to me how this all plays out when the new guy walks through the door of my church carrying a book he tells me will change my life. It ain’t just words in my world. Real pain felt by real people.

Doug wrote:

Anger has nothing to do with it.
I have seen that tactic used before to silence criticism. “Be careful you don’t respond in anger”, they’ll say, then criticize you for making observations and value judgements (I think that is called “discernment”…) and call you “unloving” for trying to protect yourself. What a load of bull-puckey.

…and don’t forget the “gossip” guilt trip! 🙁

Bridget wrote:

He has not been a pastor for a very long time, if he ever was one.

Based on what Driscoll clearly does well, ISTM that he is by natural gifting a leader. The term as used in Romans 12 broadly means “one who stands out” or “one who goes first”, and the context clearly shows that this can be done in a positive and constructive way. (Though, like any kind of God-given talent or ability, it can also be misused.) But as regards having a shepherd’s heart or gift – pick your own vocabulary – as described in Ephesians 4 and elsewhere, Driscoll himself has never claimed to be one. Indeed, he stated in a sermon a few years ago that he does not have that gift, and by every account going he was correct.

The problem, of course, is the dangerous double-meaning on the word “pastor”. In most local church polities, “pastor” is simply the top job in a localised church sub-group. The job-holder may, or may not, be a gifted shepherd.

Brent wrote:

Second, I appreciate the role Wartburg Watch has played in shedding light on church leaders who have run roughshod over their followers and whose ministry has turned toxic. It is no small thing to bring such preachers to a place of repentance and brokenness.

Please enlighten as to when Mark Driscoll has ever demonstrated to anyone either one of these things by any definition of these words. That was my point. I don’t remember one single instance being reported / documented. And his performance at Gateway certainly didn’t qualify did it? Is that what repentance and brokenness looks like?

Gram3 wrote:

I think I need Nick’s assistance. I cannot discern the difference between deluded fanboys, spoofers of fanboys, and real trolls.
This thread has Brent, the last one had Phillip, and before that was Beasley. Surely they cannot be serious.
Help, Nick!

Sorry, Gram no. 3 – I’ve only just noticed your comment; been busy with other stuff for a couple of days. I can offer the following two hypotheses regarding two of the commenters on this thread. In the strict, scientific definition of “hypothesis”: that is, a theory that is a plausible fit for the available information, but advanced tentatively because it is not the only possible theory and because the available information may not be representative.

On Keith Brown: Well, he has made no further comments after his first, which was a broad denunciation. I’m calling bungee-bomber. I don’t think we’ll hear from him again and he may well not even be reading the thread any more. IMHO, his comment was so empty it wasn’t even wrong.

On Brent: not a troll. I believe he is “singing alto”, a term which I will explain in a moment. His first comment went against the prevailing direction of comments, but I felt it was measured and at least he provided a basis for his reasoning. Crucially, his second comment was likewise. Following the large number of generally negative responses Brent’s first comment generated, a troll would certainly have milked the attention. For instance, it might have laughed at everyone’s over-sensitivity and revelled in how everyone had “attacked” it for no reason. But Brent really has done neither.

Now, the alto part in four-part choral music is generally not the main tune and, in fact, is frequently a very thankless part to sing. But it rounds out the harmony and, thus, it fulfils a real function. If there were never any dissenting voices at all, then TWW would be just another clique. I think a couple of his later comments, projecting hurt or need onto others, are wide of the mark, but overall, I think Brent has made an honest contribution singing (figuratively speaking…) alto.

I hope this is helpful. But it’s late in Scotland and I’m not feeling great, so I won’t find out until tomorrow… night, all.

@ Nick Bulbeck:

Hope you feel better tomorrow!

@ Don Baker:

Sorry that happened to you, Don, but I appreciate that you took a stand. I took some heat on Facebook for commenting about no automatic restoration for abusive leaders, on a thread about how God forgave King David and the comments were then applied to Mark Driscoll. This was mostly with people I worked with at a seminary, so supposedly we all “believe the Bible.” But it got *very* heated.

It stung. A lot. And sounds like what I got was nowhere near what you did. Maybe the best thing I had in my favor is that, as a research writer, I’d spent weeks this summer producing a research guide that already countered a lot of the logic of the other side in this. So I kept pasting in links to specific articles and no one had anything to say in response.

Anyway, I was kind of surprised that the commenters were probably split about evenly between those saying Mr Driscoll needs to truly repent and get help, and the opposite view of sort of just apologize to show “taking responsibility” and he’s good to go. Come to think of it, that’s better odds than I would’ve expected a few years ago, maybe even a few months ago.

Something else strikes me here in the moment. I think because the Mars Hill situation has become so public, and since there is a significant possibility of legal investigations into the Global Fund issues, etc., that in the long run there will be more public discussion about the issues of abusive celebrity Christians. This is far from over, and I have sensed momentum building for at least the past three years for public push-back to counter abusive leaders AND also to start holding responsible those other individuals and entities that keep these guys propped up with endorsements, book deals, speaking engagements, certifications, roles on councils and advisory boards, etc.

It may be ironic, but the public outcry against those of us who stand up for victims actually gives me hope. It used to be the protectors and the pawns could more easily silence us behind the scenes. No more. Now the refutations have moved online, and the documentation available is becoming massive. Could it be that the Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church debacles will actually help the North American Church get closer to a threshold for substantial action forward on spiritual abuse, and from there it will less likely ever slip back? Something worth reflecting on …

P.S. FWIW, I just set up a blog category yesterday for the research guide I mentioned. Might find something of interest there:

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/category/culturology-case-studies/mark-driscollmars-hill-research-guide/

@ Nick Bulbeck:

I totally get what you are saying, Nick. The problem is that Driscoll, by his own words, has considered himself an elder, pastor, and leader in the Church which belongs to Jesus Christ. He may have natural leaded skills. If so, go into business and make use of them. If he has said that he is not a pastor, then he needs to stop showing up around the world touting himself as a pastor and taking money from people who listen to him. He isn’t concerned about them, as a pastor would be.

As for me, I’m little the belief that the entire Protestant set up for being a pastor, preaching, sitting in pew transfixed, etc. is not helpful to a Christian community at all. (But this you probably know about me.)

I had never heard of Robert Morris before this post. Yet he claims on his “About Robert Morris” page to broadcast his television show into 100 million households in the US out of 117.5 million total in the US. Really? I must live under a rock in one of the largest cities in the US.

Bridget wrote:

He may have natural leaded skills. If so, go into business and make use of them.

Leaded or unleaded? 🙂 I love Freudian autocorrect sometimes. He seems to lack any unleaded skills at all. Therefore it was impossible for him to go to a conference and sit in the back and ask his buddy NOT to invite him up on stage. I’ve noticed that several of his former right hand men at Mars Hill “transitioned” instantly and seamlessly from “pastor” to “business leader” (Munson and Turner, for example).

Bridget wrote:

I had never heard of Robert Morris before this post. Yet he claims on his “About Robert Morris” page to broadcast his television show into 100 million households in the US out of 117.5 million total in the US. Really? I must live under a rock in one of the largest cities in the US.

Likewise– must tune in to the “Daystar” network more in the future… Or not…

Dave A A wrote:

Likewise– must tune in to the “Daystar” network more in the future… Or not…

Doesn’t the name “Lucifer” mean “Daystar” in the original language?

Or am I thinking of Calvin Miller’s attempt to write the anti-Screwtape?

__

Mark Driscoll is right, he is a ‘rusty’ nail.

—

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Doesn’t the name “Lucifer” mean “Daystar” in the original language?

Should we start up a “Satin” network? Or maybe “Stan”?

Or Churchill and Roosevelt, forced by circumstance to be in league with Stalin.

Dave A A wrote:

Or Churchill and Roosevelt, forced by circumstance to be in league with Stalin.

Yeah… that kind of was a bad_thing, though.

What Driscoll’s sign looks like:
http://www.safetysign.com/images/catlog/product/large/F5966.png

Bridget wrote:

he claims on his “About Robert Morris” page to broadcast his television show into 100 million households in the US

Well, then, I guess that makes a difference and makes him more credible. Probably Jesus-y infomercials for Morris. And people who pay for him to be their “pastor” are probably getting what they pay for.

Gram3 wrote:

I’m sure Keith Brown above is shocked, shocked at the vitriol in your comment’s implication that there is no evidence of Driscoll’s persecution.

I beg pardon– my comment was not filled with vitriol, at all! Rather, it was meant to electronically string him up, flay him in the public square, kick him when he’s down, accuse him of whatever I want, and cyber-saptially chew him up and spit him out with my vituperative comments and suspicious asides. Oh, and I almost forgot– crucify him.
I’d been thinking of making an exhaustive list of all the horrible things all the horrible critics of Driscoll supposedly want– but Brent above made a good start.

Dave S wrote:
Clearly, several folks seem quite willing to doubt everything he says while giving the benefit of the doubt to the folks labeled as victims. Yet they don’t really know the victims except through their published stories any more than they know Driscoll except through the stories of the victims.
An impartial inquirer has to weigh the evidence, pro and con, supporting each side of the story. After all, isn’t it possible that in at least some cases we haven’t heard the full truth? Maybe some of Driscoll’s victims have exaggerated or told half-truths. Maybe some of them have crafted their stories to remove any hint of wrongdoing on their part. Perhaps some victim really isn’t a victim at all.

Dave, I can’t speak for others, but my opinions of MD are based on independent, objective, verifiable FACTS. Facts like the recording of MD in 2007 saying he wants to go “Old Testament” on elders who merely asked if the power consolidating new bylaws were a good or godly idea, or Mark stating “there is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, hehehe, and by GOD’s GRACE it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done.” By God’s Grace? And he chuckles as he says it. In a recorded speech. In front of the families of the two elders he was running over. Then there’s the wood chipper comment with MD referencing one of the most horrific deaths in movie history as a fitting end to anyone who questions him. That doesn’t sound like a shepherd to me; it sounds like a sadistic butcher at a slaughterhouse. And no, this wasn’t in his WWII “angry young prophet” days – like that gives him a pass to have and express such hate filled thoughts. That said, the William Wallace II rants were beyond the pale and MD freely admits to writing them. No speculation there.

I also read the transcripts of the sermon he gave encouraging women to bring their men to Jesus through daily oral sex presented like he was reading it out of a dirty magazine, describing in detail how and what these women were to do. All this on the altar of Jesus Christ! I’ve read about him plagiarizing in EIGHT books. I’ve also heard recordings of him stating in a sermon that any pastor who plagiarizes should be banned from ministry permanently. I’ve read the Result Source stories. I’ve read the MH RS memos that show the complicity and premeditation and that MD and ST knew the church was in dire financial shape when they decided to spend around a quarter of a million dollars to bolster MD’s ego and personally enrich him. I’ve read the public records that then show MD turned around and bought a million dollar mansion six months later flush with the proceeds of these fake book sales which MH paid full retail for out of tithes and offerings with the profits going right into MD’s personal bank account. I’ve read about the secret corporations and CRUT’s he keeps in CO and transferring his mansion into even more secret trusts in his sister’s name? Why? Because he and MH are under investigation for charity fraud. Not another “rumor”…. I read the horrific memo where the highest leaders conspired to lie to and deceive trusting, generous Christians into believing they were giving to a fund to help people in dire straits in Ethiopia and India while leadership knew all along that they were deliberately and purposefully misleading people to their detriment, so that MD and MH could use these donated monies to fund tony local real estate investments – to the tune of ten million dollars. MD may have sought to hide his mansion in his sister’s name in the hope that it couldn’t be seized by the government if or when their illicit fund raising scam was later discovered. The government can disgorge assets acquired through illegal activities in order to repay victims and we saw this with Bernie Madoff who transferred assets to other relatives when his schemes were uncovered in the hope of protecting those assets. The fact that MD appears to be thinking like Madoff should also be a data point.

The list go on and on. None of this is based on any he said, she said. But I admit I do tend to believe that the 9 pastors and elders who submitted charges knowing that they would be signing their own dismissal notices probably felt deeply convicted to do so. All nine are gone and I believe only one resigned. Those men risked everything in the hope that MD would finally repent and be restored spiritually and professionally. I don’t think they’d just make stuff up when their livelihoods were at stake. Instead of repenting and submitting to a restoration plan where MD would actually have to, you know, submit his will and authority to God and man, he ran out and changed venues. Fatter (richer) sheep and fewer questions.

BTW he and Robert are NOT old friends. MD has never spoken at GW and RM has never spoken at MH. In case you don’t know the “rules” of mega-churchdom, you’re not “buddies” until you’ve paid each other 5 figure speaking honorariums and sold each other’s books. It’s like a Japanese businessmen ritual. The exchanging of personal gifts. MD wasn’t even on Robert’s radar until they hired him for the March 2014 Connect Conference (where they had to replace him due to breaking scandals). Additionally, there’s that whole Calvinist versus Charismania deal. Theologically, MD shouldn’t be preaching at or seeking “wise counsel” from a church that 1) preaches the prosperity gospel 2) preaches word of faith heresy 3) encourages speaking in tongues 4) performs ritualistic mass exorcisms and 5) performs giant stage “miracle” faith healings. So why would MD shift/sell out all his basic theological principles? Nine figures a year in tithes and offerings baby!!! Frankly, if MD had brought RM and his Blessed/Cursed Life Heresy to MH a few years ago, his departure might not be happening because wealthy churches are “happy churches”. BTW if people think he was scary and abusive as a YRR, wait till you see him as a Charismatic where he will be receiving direct revelation from God daily with Morris. Why, his pornographic “visions” could get their own reality tv series on Day Star. After all, “it’s supernatural!” I can practically see MD contorting his face in pain on Life Today describing the horrible burden of seeing all this sin in such graphic, seedy, sexy detail, describing the red rooms of pain he’s “forced” to see while Morris’ co-hort James Robison nods his head knowingly saying how he and “Biddy” feel his pain. (Joni, Marcus, James and “Biddy” all being GW members and Morris devotees). Boomchikawowow.

I believe I have weighed enough “evidence both pro and con” to conclude that this man should be permanently banned from ministry. He is a WOLF not a shepherd. Your compassion does you great credit Dave, but the independent evidence is just too overwhelming.

Bridget wrote:

@ Fred Rogers:
Yes. But he quoted no one and linked to nothing. Me thinks it is a figment of his imagination.

Maybe the pulpit-charging lunatic with the machete, whilst making a run at Driscoll’s estate, did in the nail scatterer and the rock thrower, that could be a reason why no one has seen hide nor hair of them.

dee wrote:

Don Baker wrote:
I am getting killed on Facebook because I dared to ask about the victims of Driscoll, i
These folks are the true believers. I believe that quite a few people have a hard time admitting they were wrong about their idol du jour. They have told people about him, maybe even pounded others over the head about how wonderful he is. When confronted with reality, they are too self protective to care about others. This has become about them and their judgment and they will fight tooth and nail to preserve their self image. They got conned. It is too hard for them to admit it.

If you want to see pure unmitigated hysteria rapidly ramping up to hatred, try pulling down someone’s idol. Don Baker, you’re just doing what Gideon did, what would you expect from those steeped in pagan idol worship?

Adam Borsay wrote:

as mentioned here, he had virtually immediately become a leader. There was never a period of maturing his attitude from a typical 18 year old meathead into a mature adult.

Leaving all of us with a 44 year-old meathead.

Keith Brown wrote:

The vitriol in these comments is shocking.

With respect, you have a mighty goofy, overblown idea of what constitutes “vitriol”.
Don’t be such a drama queen; it just detracts from anything USEFUL that you may have to say.

Gram3 wrote:

Fred Rogers wrote:

I’d been thinking of making an exhaustive list of all the horrible things all the horrible critics of Driscoll supposedly want

Personally, in light of his affinity for Mickey Mouse, in keeping with the Disney motif I’d like to make a Photoshop of Driscoll in pink lipstick and purple eyeshadow, purple sparkly tutu and tiara with a princess tee instead of the Mickey Mouse one. But, alas, I lack the skill to do so.

ROTFLOL!!
Oh, for a computer savvy soul to take up the challenge!!

zooey111 wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
Fred Rogers wrote:
I’d been thinking of making an exhaustive list of all the horrible things all the horrible critics of Driscoll supposedly want
Personally, in light of his affinity for Mickey Mouse, in keeping with the Disney motif I’d like to make a Photoshop of Driscoll in pink lipstick and purple eyeshadow, purple sparkly tutu and tiara with a princess tee instead of the Mickey Mouse one. But, alas, I lack the skill to do so.
ROTFLOL!!
Oh, for a computer savvy soul to take up the challenge!!

Fans might accuse that savvy soul of being out to destroy and ruin him, for making him look like an effeminate worship leader or British priest.

Fred Rogers wrote:

Fans might accuse that savvy soul of being out to destroy and ruin him, for making him look like an effeminate worship leader or British priest.

Oh, alright, then. Take the Photoshop and use a 3-D printer to make an action figure with the necessary details, including the tutu. I think it is a marketable concept, and he’s all about the branding.

Gram3 wrote:

Personally, in light of his affinity for Mickey Mouse, in keeping with the Disney motif I’d like to make a Photoshop of Driscoll in pink lipstick and purple eyeshadow, purple sparkly tutu and tiara with a princess tee instead of the Mickey Mouse one. But, alas, I lack the skill to do so.

What has been seen cannot be unseen…

  __

All Board Da Religious 501(c)3 ‘Crazy’ Train, Perhaps?

hmmm…

  These proverbial pastoral guyz have a good ‘racket’ going, – anyone who stands up to them and their mis-deeds are labeled as ‘snakes’, N’ …’tools of Satan’.

-snicker-

What?

Idolatry makes for strange proverbial religious 501(c)3 bedfellows, huh?

(sadface)

Bible in hand and everything.

(could have fool’d me)

(grin)

ha, ha,

MerkyD is ask’in, ‘Gimmy some ?!?

$ure.

Letz sing along:

(Hit it Stevie!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHOQa6VBFas

😉

Sopy

—

zooey111 wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
Fred Rogers wrote:
I’d been thinking of making an exhaustive list of all the horrible things all the horrible critics of Driscoll supposedly want
Personally, in light of his affinity for Mickey Mouse, in keeping with the Disney motif I’d like to make a Photoshop of Driscoll in pink lipstick and purple eyeshadow, purple sparkly tutu and tiara with a princess tee instead of the Mickey Mouse one. But, alas, I lack the skill to do so.
ROTFLOL!!
Oh, for a computer savvy soul to take up the challenge!!

I think someone could do this and someone in Seattle software complex is probably very motivated to do this. They could title it: Driscoll the Drama Queen.

Guilty here! I shouldn’t have speculated based on a reporter’s failure.