"I try on atheism every morning and then discard it."
-J. Christopher Clemens, Chair, Department of Physics and Astronomy at UNC when asked if he ever has doubts about his Christian faith.
Recently, some curmudgeon challenged Eagle on one of his comments. He didn't like the way Eagle said something. He then said that Eagle had been made a saint by TWW. I want to answer that charge in a way that I hope he understands. Eagle appeared at this site angry about his difficult encounters with Christians through the years. He had become an agnostic, teetering on atheism. He spoke harsh words, expressing his utter exasperation at the way he had been dismissed through the years.
I have something to say to another man who caused Eagle so much pain. He attended a church which is into "men being men." He acted like a coward. He got upset that Eagle harshly challenged him. Well, guess what? He challenged me just as harshly and I looked beyond the words and my own sensitivities to reach into Eagle's life beyond the surface. It was worth it. Too bad he couldn't do the same. He missed out on something.
I always know where Eagle stands on things. There is no guile. He says it likes he feels it and there is something remarkably refreshing when someone is so honest. I always knew where I stood. If I wasn't making much sense, he told me. He honestly confessed his sins and shortcomings. More of us could stand to be so honest, beginning with me. He lets you into his life, just as he is.
Due to my own experiences in listening to those who had left the faith, Eagle's language and his expressions didn't push me away. I decided I wasn't going to let him get off the hook that easily. The Deebs decided it was worth the criticism to keep him engaged and we lost a few readers over that decision. They let us know via emails.
Eagle would call late at night and push me on all sorts of questions, mostly dealing with the bad behavior of Christians and the problem of pain and suffering. He would never let me off easily as well. My husband would be in the kitchen, listening to my side of the conversation and peppering me with questions after it was over. Slowly, Eagle became a beloved brother to our family. For me this was the first time on this blog that I had the opportunity to walk with a person through their journey from deep anger and disappointment into faith. It is a journey which is ongoing. Both my husband and I look forward to texts from Eagle, telling us of his progress in various areas of his life.
I can only hope that all who read here can one day have an "Eagle" in their lives. Such a person will challenge you down to your very toes. It won't be easy but it will be life changing for you as it was for me. Eagle is no more saint than I am a saint. As I have said to him often "I will fail you one day, Eagle. Remember there is only One who will not."
Finally, Eagle honestly deals with doubt. There were many time, along about 11 PM, when he would say, "What do I do with my doubts?" I told him that doubt is part of the human condition. Everyone, no matter which end of the equation they fall on, doubts their position. I told him that, as I looked at the Biblical narrative, it answered most of the basic questions that I have about life. But, it doesn't answer all of them. Doubts are part and parcel of any honest Christian's life. Doubts cause us to search for answers and to realize that it might be as hard for us to comprehend God as it is for a clam to understand us.
Eagle now embraces his doubts as he seek to follow Jesus. Again, remember that these are his thoughts and his doubts and just like the rest of us, he is in process. He is taking us on his journey with him. He hasn't arrived and neither have we. But one thing I know, he is a follower of Jesus.
(Note: Eagle uses the term Hyper-Calvinism to connote those who follow lockstep with Neo-Calvinist leaders such as John Piper, Mark Dever, etc.)
On Doubts
It’s unfortunate that many evangelical Christians do not know how to process, deal or comprehend doubt. First of all while frightening, doubt can be healthy, vibrant and can help form a robust faith – if an outlet is created that allows for evangelicals to deal with their doubt. There are two key issues that I think make doubt worse in evangelicalism.
1. The first deals with the evangelical claim of inerrancy,
2. The second deals with those who insist on absolutes.
Inerrancy
I would suggest that doubt is made worse in evangelicalism due to the insistence by some that the Bible is inerrant. I think by both claiming the Bible is inerrant and treating scripture in ways that it’s not designed for shows how many evangelicals are insecure in their theology. Now please note, I am not diminishing, trashing or taking a liberal view on scripture. I view scripture as being divine and inspired. But I do not think, nor will I claim its inerrant. I believe that by claiming its inerrant it actually makes issues like the genocide in the Old Testament, or the eternal destination of those who never heard the Gospel much worse.
Absolutes
Next I would further suggest that doubt is natural and inevitable to mature and grow one’s faith. Many evangelicals should come to understand that at one point in their life, especially as they age, they are going to deal with doubt. Ask yourself this…how does a person spiritually grow if they are 31, 32 and member of a Hyper-reformed church and already knows that the “correct doctrine” (note the commas they are there for a purpose) is what John Piper or Mark Dever teaches? Also if one already has “sound doctrine” how can they grow or develop? (Again I put sound doctrine in quotes for a reason)
If we are going to be brutally honest and have true humility, than doubt will help develop that as well. When it comes to doubt, I would suggest it would be healthier if more people would say, “I don’t know” and left it at that – and learned to live in the tension. I would suggest that a healthy faith is one that has shades of gray. Life is not black and white, and if an evangelical views everything as black and white then I would suggest that shows not only their personal insecurity in regards to faith, but a lack of depth, and maturity.
While I could continue writing about this claim, this is another criticism I have of Christian leaders like Mark Dever, John Piper and Jonathan Leeman. Since their faith is black and white and nothing but absolutes, it forces them to make outright ridiculous claims when things like disasters, differing points of view in church, discipline, or how a church holds the" keys to the Kingdom," etc… play out.
But each person will develop doubt differently. And what one person struggles with will be completely different for what another person experiences. That said, let me walk you through my thinking and show you how I resolved my doubts – or didn’t resolve my doubts. I write this with sincerity and to the best of my ability.
The Problem of Evil
I believe that the problem of evil is the single, best reason to reject God and faith. I don’t have this all worked out….but let me share some thoughts that came about as a result of banging my head on the wall for a few years. I wrestled with this issue for 6 years and today I am still very sensitive to it. What would often happen is that I'd read the Washington Post, Baltimore Sun, or local news radio (WTOP) and would hear the following:
- A well liked teacher who is using his access to children to manufacture and create child pornography. I would think why.
- A dispute over clothing leads a person to leave a residence and come back and fire multiple rounds from a gun into a house, striking and killing a 6 year old. I would think why.
- A house mate in Baltimore who kills and cannibalizes his roommate leaving Police shocked. I would think why.
- A guy high on drugs who stabs to death a woman in Fairfax while her child is sitting in the back street. I would think why.
- I would often reflect on September 11, especially how terrorists flew planes into the World Trade Center.
- I would also think of events like the Navy Yard shooting or Newtown School shooting.
- There is also natural evil such as the Japanese tsunami, the Indian ocean tsunami in 2004, etc.
Now here is the one thing that people in the Reformed crowd or other parts of Christianity are not discussing. To me, Reformed theology makes the problem of evil worse. If you want me to explain why, I can go in deeper detail down below in the comments. But for me the Problem of Evil finally resulted in me pushing away from faith. I didn't know how to resolve it. It drove me for years. And after a period of time I finally came to realize that evil is always going to exist, and the answer that I was seeking…driven by my question of "why?" is not going to be found. I had to learn to live with no answer. I can see how evil shows how sinful people are in this world.
However, what bothered me is the following. ..since evil is here to stay how do people react to it? What do you do when confronted with evil? There are two thoughts I have to say on that line of thinking.
1. The Problem of Evil helped me realize how government and legal forms of authority are ordained by God.
Why? The government can contain, push back and punish evil. When I realized that evil was not going away my thinking then began to ask, "Well then…what do you do?" And with that I slowly began to realize how important our judicial system is in trying, prosecuting, and convicting people who practice evil such as people who rape, molest a child, murder someone in a gang feud, etc…
It is with this thought, that I find it deeply and utterly repulsive, and from the pit of my stomach (or what's left of it! 😛 ), the fact that Hyper-reformed theology (along with other theological systems) at times appears to flaunt, push back against civil government, and violate laws by a governmental system that I see as ordained by God. For example, it is alleged (and testified to under oath) that Sovereign Grace Ministries pushed back and did not report as well as allegedly(in the Second Amended lawsuit) taught people not to report sex crimes to the government. I would suggest that organizations like Sovereign Grace are engaging in evil by not respecting the laws of our ordained government. And they are not the only ones. This is unbiblical and yet is coming from those who claim to be biblical.
2. But this also leads to a second point…what is a Christian to do? What I learned through watching the SGM lawsuit.
How does a Christian respond when churches ignores, abuse, or shuns them and thus practices evil? And this is where the Sovereign Grace lawsuit enters the picture. Before I continue I want to write a few words to the brave souls who are seeking justice through a legal means from Sovereign Grace Ministries. This is to Pam Palmer, and the many others who keep pushing and fighting SGM through court action. I imagine you must be tired. You want to raise a family, recover from a cult like organization, and live and enjoy the here and now. I know many of you guys are hurting, and in deep pain. I know you have children and family members who have walked away from faith because they are so burned and fried. Their reaction is normal, as I walked away for years – when I was burned and fried. That said…I ask you guys to please continue and finish the job that is at hand.
To those who are hurt please make sure that an evil organization is completely dismantled so that no more people are hurt. Sovereign Grace needs to be held accountable, and those who have held it up…the John Pipers, Mark Devers, Jonathan Leemans, etc… need to be held accountable as well.
Here's why I say all this…when I was wrestling with the problem of evil, I always thought of the question in the context of child abuse, child molestation. That is just how I thought and defined the doubt…and I wondered since evil is here to stay what do you do you when a "ministry" is covering up sexual abuse? With my thinking of how God ordains government, legal action I believe is very Biblical and in order. With teachings of Romans 13, and Titus, I believe legal action is the proper course. Not just that but watching Christians hold a criminal outfit accountable is something that I find deeply impressive. And it was through the SGM legal battles that I learned how to process The Problem of Evil. with SGM
Quick digression: I find it funny as hell that an organization labeled Sovereign Grace is fighting a lawsuit. That action alone shows that they don't believe the Lord is sovereign. Second I got a good laugh at reading about how a patriarchal organization with strict gender roles used a female lawyer to fight its case. My immediate thought when I heard was the following…shouldn't she be chained to a stove baking cookies and popping out three kids by the time dinner is served?
The Second Adam
This is an issue that plagued me for a while. Why should I be held responsible for someone’s sin especially if it took place thousands of years ago? I have to give Andrew White (formerly from Eric Simmons' church, Redeemer of Arlington) credit for helping me resolve this, as I said earlier. The conclusion that I came to realize in an "a-ha" moment is that for each person it’s different. The original sin that took place in the Garden of Eden was unique. Man disobeyed and ate from the tree that they should not have eaten from.
The peace comes from know that Adam’s sin was unique to him…so are mine. I came to the conclusion that even if I were in the Garden I may have committed a sin that might not have involved eating the forbidden fruit, but I would in all likelihood (especially with knowing my stubborn, prideful and stupid self at times) would have in all likelihood committed another sin that is different but just as egregious. All of us would have….our sins are unique and they are destructive in the end. People are destructive in different ways, and they destroy, hurt and harm themselves in different ways.
Genocide in the Old Testament
This is hard…and one of the harder questions I wrestled with. I looked at a lot of different alternatives to include the following.
- Is there archeological evidence for the destruction of people groups today?
- Have archeologists found specific scientific evidence to back this up?
If there are no evidence could it be a spiritual genocide to where the ancient culture at the time maybe “imagined” God smiting their enemies? And is it possible to assume that it’s not a literal massacre. This is part of the reason why I suggest that the Bible is not inerrant. Evangelicals have NEEDLESSLY and UNNECESSARILY painted themselves into corners by forcing themselves to defend the undefendable – mass genocide. The tricky part that bothered me as well…is this…if scripture recorded God ordering the molestation of a child, or the rape of a woman, or the cannibalization of a person…would evangelicals feel bound to defend it?
By the means that some evangelicals defend genocide, or scandalously and foolishly suggest that the annihilation of entire people groups is full of “grace” (note I put that in quotes) shows a lack of a conscious. If Abraham pleaded and begged God to show mercy on Sodom…why can’t we? And if we can’t come to a conclusion given the Polar Opposites in the Old and New Testaments, how about if evangelicals learn to say, “I don’t know” how, with and why genocide happens in the OT.
As for me I don’t know is where I have landed, I have decided to live in the tension and create a third way or myself. “I don’t know” gives me an out, because if God orchestrated genocide on a spectacular scale and destroyed entire people groups, and if I had to defend that, then quite simply I could not. I would choose to be an atheist instead. The way evangelicals feel compelled to defend OT genocide I would liken to the following situation. It would be akin to being an ethnic German and defending Hitler’s massacre of 6 million Jews, because you love your homeland. Who in their right mind can do that? But if John Piper or someone else is going to say that God has a right to kill people groups then my response is to say, “No”. I think John Piper is way off base. My answer is “I don’t know” why this issue plagues the OT but I will chose to live in the tension.
The Prosperity Gospel
I’m not going to spend a lot of time on this one…this is crap and needs to be simply rejected. It causes needless pain and is more widespread than people want to admit.
Pain and Suffering & End Times Theology
Here is what I am going to propose. In order to make and have faith work again, I decided to let go of all End Times Theology. In terms of when, how, the method, and the means when the Lord will return I am just going to say “I don’t know”. I refuse to look at every disaster, war, global financial crisis, conflict with Israel, etc… in an “End Times” lens. I am quite turned off from dispensational theology and personally I want to avoid it. Personally the way that I decided to proceed is to say “I don’t know”. Now the one factor about Reformed theology that I do respect is amillennialism. Furthermore the way the Roman Catholic Church approaches End Time Theology I find to be healthy and deep. It’s actually freeing….in many ways.
The other problem with those in dispensational theology is that it has led some evangelicals to celebrate, cherish and proclaim horrific news, tragedies, etc… as being “good”. This is sad, and I think its horrific. Many evangelicals need to learn how to empathize, express sorrow, mourn, weep, lament, etc.. I think that would be one of the healthiest things the evangelical church can do. This I actually saw once at Fairfax Community Church the Sunday after Adam Lanza went on his shooting rampage in a Newtown Elementary School in Connecticut.
Eternal Destination of Those who never heard the Gospel
This is another challenge that is hard to work around. Really quickly this issue is actually solved by the Hyper-Calvinists. However, that actually opens the door to new problems to include questions like the following:
- How does a Hyper-Calvinist know they are part of the Elect?
- How do they know with 100% certainty that they are pre-destined?
- How does someone like Jonathan Leeman know he is saved?
Those are questions no one has answers for and its one of the issues that undermines Hyper-Calvinism. It’s like the Problem of Evil…Hyper-Calvinism makes the Problem of Evil worse and contributes to additional evil playing out, while corrupting God in the process. As for me I came to the understanding that I am going to have to live in the tension and say, “I don’t know” For me, at this time, there are no answers to this question. However as I banged my head on the wall for years over this issue, I also realized the following. There was nothing I could say, do or influence in regards to what happened to people who lived before me, or those who even lived before the Gospel was even invented. Therefore I had to come to terms myself in knowing God would probably look at someone who lived in the 21st Century who rejected the Gospel differently, then someone who lived in Wuhan, China in 400 BC who never heard the Gospel.
Sex Abuse
This crap needs to end. PERIOD. I addressed I believe up above in the Problem of Evil segment.
Corruption in the church
Corruption, nepotism, cronyism, etc… are huge, HUGE issues that create lots of problems in evangelicalism today. The issue of corruption I think threatens the very Gospel itself. There is so much corruption coming from SGM, Mars Hill, the SBC, Prosperity Churches, HBC, etc… And this is why I think this blog (TWW and SSB I might add!) is so unique and a gem in the Christian world. It actually shines the light in dark places and shows the corruption that exists internally. Mark Driscoll should be permanently banished from teaching/preaching another sermon the rest of his life. And before he does anything, he should look at the log in his own eye before doing anything. Many Christians should, and this blog does that and shows how corrupt many churches are. Discernment is so desperately needed today and its noticeably absent in many places.
Problem of Prayer
I believe that I addressed this well in my posts. If you guy want me to discuss this just ask.
First!?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your journey with us, Eagle.
Second!
Thanks for sharing your final thoughts Eagle.
Wow! Home……..that’s what I think after reading this! Someone has finally taken all the jumbled thoughts, feelings and maturing beliefs and put them together as if they came from my very own heart and mind. I am a new poster but have been reading and lurking for months.
My quick story is I grew up AG, career in hotel/restaurant management/service industry and then to full time ministry. I was hurt, destroyed spiritually, while “inside the walls of the church” by a pastor’s wife! I went on to para-church ministry for years until I could not walk into a church again. After YEARS of wandering (bless the patience of my husband) and only recently discovering that I was going through a form of PTSD have the wounds slowly begun to heal. It has come through reading the stories of others here and at Under Much Grace, Mars Hill exes, SGM, that I have come to understand the warped theology of my youth. Those patterns of belief made it difficult to shake off the chains of abuse.
I too have struggled with, inerrancy, evil, end times theology, OT genocide, and the black and white of those that don’t! Growing up believing that those things came with absolutes and yet now believing that it’s just not so black and white has brought me also to the place of living in the tension. And being ok with being there. I have a 30 year old son who grew up in church with his mom in ministry and he has his own questions of God, the Church and faith. I often tell him that I am not afraid of his doubts and that neither is Jesus. Because at times I just don’t have those black and white answers for him.
I mention my career in the service industry because it has been the breeding ground to many of my questions. If you ever want to experience a cross cultural life, work in a hotel or restaurant. You will work with many who don’t hold your beliefs and have had many differing life experiences. It is not so easy to have ALL the answers except to love, reach out, celebrate, mourn and walk with them as Christ would today.
Keep up the good work as there are many many others like us out there.
Think of all the Utopian Revolutions from 1789-1989 and what would have happened if they had achieved their Republiques of Perfect Virtue. Total stagnation at that point, forever. Because once you have Achieved Perfection (like North Korea or Islamic State), ANY CHANGE INTRODUCES IMPERFECTION.
(This comes from 30+ year old SF litfan back-and-forths over Cordwainer Smith’s “Instrumentality of Man” series. 10-20,000 years of Totally Static Society, identical in every respect after those 20,000 years as before. They had achieved Perfection in their own mind, so they literally could not change anything. Because any change would be backsliding away from their Perfect Society.)
By acting More Devout Than everyone else, of course. As the Ayatollahs of Iran are More Islamic than Mohammed, and the Taliban are more Islamic than the Ayatollahs, and ISIS/ISIL is More Islamic than the Taliban…
By PROVING to themselves that they show The True Sign of The Elect. Whether that’s —
* Having more money and stuff than anyone else (Prosperity Gospel)…
* Having “Sounder Doctrine” and more Perfectly Parsed Theology/Purity of Ideology than anyone else…
* Sin-sniffing themselves for ANY imperfection…
* Doing More Devotions/Prayer/Bible Study than anyone else…
* Being More “On Fire” than anyone else…
* Driving themselves harder than anyone else…
* Having God “all figured out” more than anyone else…
As I have said to him often “I will fail you one day, Eagle. Remember there is only One who will not.”
This is an honest question, not a b*tter or hostile one: why are we never allowed to say that God has failed us? God lets every evil that happens in this world happen; everything from floods to stubbed toes to the certainty of death. If we can reasonably say that someone let us down, doesn’t it have to be God?
On a different note, I used to be in an authoritarian church and I had a lady as my ‘covering’ who did something that hurt me deeply. When I told her what I felt she had done, she said that she was sorry and that she may have let me down, but God would never let me down. I thought, that’s funny, because it wasn’t too long ago that I was being told that, as my covering, you spoke FOR God, to me. By your logic, if you let me down then I am well within my rights to say ‘God, You’ve let me down’.
As I challenge myself to learn more most of the problems I have come from dualistic thinking systems. This is where the side your on is right and everybody oustide the fold is wrong. Humanity is diverse and if you claim from your experience to have it all figured out, you’re part of the problem. That is the problem with Christianity in general. I also had to tip my hat to the pastor at my old church when he told me nobody currently on staff was a dispensationalist. This kind of caused me to pause and realize even the uber reformed have some good things in their belief system.
Sophie wrote:
I would never, ever consider any question you ask on this blog as being bitter or hostile. In fact, the bitter word is banned on this blog
Sophie wrote:
You can say whatever you want to God. He is able to handle it and would rather the conversation as opposed to ignoring it.
Sophie wrote:
For me, it ends up with a question. If He did not allow any of this, would free will have been hampered? Please note that I am not a Calvinist so that is how I approach this question.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
The Deebs had this post for a while. I realized that I need to explain how I worked through my doubts and problems. This is it. Big shout out to Pam Palmer and those who contested Sovereign Grace Ministries in your lawsuit. You guys helped me work through the Problem of Evil and showed my why government is ordained by God. I find it amusing for all you hear about God’s sovereignty, Sovereign Grace chose to find the lawsuit. How ironic!
Oops….I meant to say fight the lawsuit.
I am skeptical this article is from Eagle w/out lengthy errata in the comments 🙂
I am so happy for you and your journey Eagle after reading many of your thoughts here and on iMonk over the past year(s?). Doubt can be pretty constant. (Which can really suck at times) But it is a fact of life like death and taxes.
@ srs:
I’d rathor pay taxes than deal with doubt! 😛
@ Eagle:
So if you could pay more taxes in order to reduce doubt, at what point do you start to get less effect due to diminishing returns…? (ok, walk away from the tax talk, srs, walk away)
@ Eagle:
Well I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I’m always interested in hearing people’s answer to how they accept the problem of evil.
What srs said!
Eagle,
I will have to take some time to read & reread, & process what you have shared. My gray matter ain’t what it use to be. You know how you impacted this granny with your voice. I love that you have doubts & choose to live in the tension.
You are remarkable, and I say Bravo to the deebs, for letting you vent, and surrounding you with support. Aging hippy that I am, after being a step ford gal who drank the kool aide, your words, voice resinated deeply inside of me and I got a huge kick out of your comments when you were on the war path.
Love, Granny!
Eagle said:
All of these guys are stuck on power and their own authority. Of course the only place they can have that authority is in the church and home. In the church, they get to have authority over both men and women, so the institutional church is very, very important to them, and that means that membership handcuffs, soft though they might be, are necessary to hold the sheep in line. Church discipline and church covenants are included in that category. That must be kept in mind.
The keys of the kingdom are not authority given to Peter or elders or even the congregation over other people, contra Leeman and the others. The Keys to the Gates of Heaven (in Jewish thinking) *will be* the Gospel, part of which Peter had just confessed. Jesus is the Door or Gate to Heaven, and he *will build* his [new]assembly. The Holy Spirit gives the Gospel keys their power. There is zero in this about power other than God’s power. Even the “binding and loosing” would be future when they would declare what is “binding” and what is “no longer binding.” That is exactly what they did, even when it got messy like the Jerusalem Council.
That future began at *Pentecost* following the Resurrection, and both of those events were in the future at the time Jesus spoke those words. It’s as if these guys think that everything started with them, with no concept of the underlying imagery and thinking.
It is exactly the opposite, as a matter of fact, from what they say. They are all about the power of the institutional church to say who is in and who is out. NO! They have no such authority. The only authority they have is to proclaim the Gospel and the other teachings of Jesus and other matters which the Holy Spirit inspired them to teach and write. The scribes and Pharisees claimed the power to bind and loose, and Jesus totally took them down and exposed them for the fakers that they were, binding up burdens on others and shutting access to Heaven instead of offering it freely.
That is exactly what Jesus has done through the proclamation of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit. But the New Calvinists cannot see this because they can only see anything in terms of power and authority, especially their own.
OK, time for some chocolate before I get wound up.
Wait, one more thing. This who episode took place at Caesara Philippi near Banias, a place of human sacrifice to Pan by pagans which was called the gates of hell. It is a creepy place. The other thing is that it is also near one of the sources of the Jordan River. It is a looooooooog walk from Galilee to Caesarea Philippi, and I think Jesus took the disciples there to make a point which they would remember after the crucifixion and resurrection.
Gospel Corp. Guys, please just get over your own supposed importance. Maybe you would be able to see the glory of Christ if you would just put down your mirrors.
Gram3 wrote:
this whole episode
@ Gram3:
Wait…what?!? You mean Jonathan Leeman is wrong? The “local church’ doesn’t have the final authority and keys to the kingdom? Jonathan Leeman really stretched himself on that one, and is pushing it. Honestly….with the stretching of orthodox theology by Leeman and 9 Marks…I think he’s in the wrong church. He should be a Mormon. The LDS are big into authority as well.
Eagle wrote:
Actually, I think this particular fetish for clerical authority is an artifact from Augustine who was trying to make sense out of the destruction of the Christian Empire founded by Constantine. So, I think that Leeman is actually closer to the Roman Catholic or, at least the Anglican, view of the church and the clergy.
This makes some sense if you think about the English Baptists coming out of the Church of England with its clergy/laity distinction. Founders and 9 Marks and SBTS have a lot more affinity for the English Particular Baptists than they do with American Baptists who had significantly more input from the Wesley and also various strains of Anabaptists. Of course, the Anabaptists must be avoided at all costs by the clerical Baptists, because they are the ones from whom we get the idea of a “level” church with no clergy/laity distinction.
Keep your eyes on Jesus, Eagle. We’re not expected to figure it out. Jesus felt the Problem of Evil very personally throughout his life, which culminated at the cross which pretty much summarizes Evil and unjust suffering. It’s still dark outside, though the sun is rising, and some day it will be noon and we’ll see clearly.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Eagle, for sharing from the heart, here. This was a beautiful, positive boost to a taxing day. Thank you very much for taking the time to write all of that out.
God Bless you!
@ JB:
Oh, noooooes! Sorry you didn’t make it this time as second. But at least you made the first three. 🙂
These articles were very helpful thank you eagle I do hope you have a nice weekend.
@ Marie2:
JB was the second person to post, I posted two comments, one to bag my spot and then to respond to Eagle. I couldn’t resist posting ‘first’ when I saw a new post with no comments.
Hope you are well, Marie2. I always give your name the French pronunciation as ‘MurrieDurr.’
Nice work again Eagle, you know I’m a huge fan.
And I do feel God failed me & if this is my last post before being struck down it’s been nice knowing you all. It might be time for me to actually own up to how totally abandoned I feel… I’ve been considering asking my local Anglican church if I can find a spiritual advisor to help me work out some of my spiritual crap before I give up completely. I need a wise old battle axe or similar, because I know I am wayyyyy too much for most people. Just like some people found Eagle, but not all 😉
Eagle, you have done a great job here with your story, including this last post. I don’t think I could have made it through all that like you have. Your story is encouraging to me and others, and thank you for being so open and honest about it.
Eagle – I agree that it’s very encouraging for me to hear your story, including this post about your doubts. I have been up and down lately in my faith. I know I believe in Jesus and the basics, but beyond that I don’t want to be forced to believe or do anything. And last night I was surfing the internet about something and stumbled across a web page that talked about hell, and I suddenly had a panic attack, not knowing what I believe about hell. Sometimes I feel like I”m questioning a lot of things I ever believed in and it feels very disorienting. I think I’ll still land in the Christian camp, but not sure what it’ll look like. And I don’t want anyone to tell me what it should look like, even when I”m scared and uncertain.
Beakerj wrote:
Actually, it has been my experience that God loves those who are straight with Him. Why? because I have been there. Years ago, I started on a journey to ask the hard questions. I was determined not to allow platitudes and Christian sayings govern my thoughts. i ear everything I could get my hands on. The Internet was not available to the extent it is today.
It was the best thing that every happened to me even thought, at the time, I felt a bit rudderless. Embrace the discomfort and the disappointment and let it guide you as you seek for answers. Read the books that the book reviewers at The Gospel Coalition and Tim Challies say not to read: Phillip Yancey is one. Authors like this embrace questions and discouragement.
I am on the other side of that journey now. I have more questions than answers and have far less fealty to dogmatic doctrine dudes. Funny thing, with those questions I have more peace about my faith. I shall pray that it will be the same for you. Here’s to the journey!
Former CLC’er wrote:
That is exactly what happened to me many years ago. I was in a class in which a professor from DTS was introducing a new Bible translation. He mentioned, in passing, that the woman caught in adultery was not in the earliest manuscripts. My face got hot and the room started to spin (truly). It hit me that I did not understand much about how we got our Bible and why it is reliable. I wondered what else I didn’t know.
That started my journey in getting answers and embracing questions. It wasn’t an easy time but it was a time that caused me to better understand the faith and the thoughts of those outside the faith.
I bet God is sending you on a journey, just like Beaker is on a journey. It will be worth it.
Gail wrote:
Why do I have a hard time picturing you as a Stepford Wife??!
dee wrote:
Me too.
Eagle! I was wondering where you were and if you are ok. Glad to hear from you. I agree that “I don’t know” is a fine answer to all things theological. In fact, all the answers i thought I had to have pale since I entered the upside down and backward kingdom, near to the heart of Jesus. Now the only urgency i feel is to love my brothers and neighbors as face to face as possible, as much as possible. Beyond that, I just entrust myself to the one who judges rightly. I am going to check your older posts for your thoughts on prayer. Peace to you, precious brother.
Thanks for sharing your story with us Eagle. You obviously put much time and effort into writing your story. I commend you for your work.
For future reference – you should consider hiring Docent to do all your work for you. 🙂 On that subject, I checked the other day and Mark Driscoll is nowhere to be found on the Docent web page. Neither is Matt Chandler. Driscoll used to be their chief spokesman, but, not to worry, they have replaced Driscoll with some young hipster preacher for Las Vegas.
http://www.docentgroup.com
Okay…quiz for you guys! How does reformed theology make the Problem of Evil WORSE? 😉 I’ll grade the answers later today or tomorrow! 🙂 Can someone explain why?
Eagle….I think you have thought about and given voice to what many believers THINK but do not dare SAY. I have hypercalvinic family members….they are really hard to converse with as they have “God in a Box” and think they have the Creator of the Universe all mapped out on their spiritual GPS. Really….who can possibly understand the mind of God? Thanks for your honestly. Believe it or not, you are NOT alone……I have struggled with many of the same questions myself and also nearly left the faith. GOD CAN HANDLE these questions……but does not always “owe” us an answer. We are the clay, He is the potter.
Dee, can you do me a favor? Can you facilitate and spur on a discussion on how reformed theology makes the problem of evil worse? Later tonight or tomorrow after people give their thoughts, can you wade in and explain why and how reformed theology makes the problem of evil worse? Thanks Mom!
@ justabeliever:
What is the point of faith if you can’t be honest? Do you realize what this means for someone who almost converted to Mormonism when he was 21/22? If being dishonest requires someone to just go with the flow and fall into a spiritual system then really when I was asked to be baptized into Mormonism in 1995/1996 – I should have consented. Afterward I could have gone to Brigham Young University for grad school and immerse myself in the LDS culture. I could have gotten married in the LDS Temple and become one of those Mormon clones you see from time to time. I could have lived out my life in the jello belt of Utah and Idaho. It would have been dishonest but it would have spared me a lot of pain. Think of the benefits that could have come forth? No John Piper, no WWIII over Sovereign Grace and Redeemer of Arlington. No false accusation from a member of Redeemer of Arlington who walked around boasting of how much he and his wife were being sanctified. No threat to my livelihood, finances, and family as a result of his actions. All this would have been spared. I could have gone forth quietly and been a Mormon clone looking like I was fresh out of the factory. Sigh
@ Eagle:
OK, DC Son, here goes (PS: Put this question into Google. Guess whose post shows up in the number 1 position? ROFL!!!
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Why+calvinism+makes+the+problem+of+evil+worse&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Eagle wants to discuss how Reformed theology makes the problem of evil worse. I think we should do a post on this in the near future and allow it to explode, which it will. It always does.
How can the existence of a good and omnipotent Creator God line up with the world in which is filled with evil and human suffering?
I believe there are two opposing responses
1. Arminians believe in free will and that evil and suffering occurs because we are allowed to freely choose. This is where I currently stand
2. NeoCalvinists believe that it is a matter of perspective. God is always good and when something appears evil, it is there for a reason which will result in our ultimate good, even if we cannot currently understand it.
Have fun….I think I will hide under a table.
Eagle wrote:
Eagle– I read your quiz just prior to taking the dogs for a walk. Along the sidewalk, I noticed numerous “natural organic canine deposits” which owners apparently feel it would be inconvenient to scoop. Soooo… The following from the East Munster Confession (1649):
“There be not one cubic centimeter of doo-doo over which god doth not cry “MINE!” Yet he doth not poo out the doo-doo himself, since that would make him the pooer of doo-doo. To bring himself glory, he rather commandeth his adorable pugs, and they do poo. Rather than scoopeth after them, he locketh them in the kennel so that no pooed deed goeth unpunished. So if you steppeth in something stinky, don’t blame god! Rather thank him that he scoopest not, lest he scoopest YOU off the sidewalk (you sheep of height, you) and dumpest YOU in the bin! Don’t rail against god– kick the dog!!”
@ dee:
Do it, Dee. Put it out there for discussion. I am neither 100% #1 or #2 above, but it would make for interesting discussion.
@ Beakerj:
Please know God is not waiting to strike you down, and he understands why you feel he has failed you. I don’t know what happened to make you believe God is not there for you, but at least be assured that you are in good company. It’s the way many of us have felt at some point. And we still don’t understand everything about the What and the Why, but we cling to the Who and ask for him to help us to trust.
I second Dee’s recommendation of Philip Yancey. He gets it, and I think he has a way of writing that is comforting and strengthening at the same time.
When I was in the pit, I couldn’t read the Bible, for whatever reason. I couldn’t pray, which was really scary. But I still wanted to listen to good, old hymns which were sometimes written from places of deep pain and grief and abandonment and were based on the Bible. That became the bridge over which God started bringing me back.
After awhile, I was able to start singing along with them, but only in private. Maybe music is your bridge. Maybe it is reading good books and good biographies of Christians. Maybe it is meditating on the Psalms. Maybe it is being out in God’s creation and remembering how great he is. Maybe it is reading the gospels and seeing how Jesus dealt with grief and other pain. Maybe it is art for you. God can use any means, so just use whatever it is that draws you closer to him. It is a process, so let him work. Look to Jesus who is both the author and finisher of our faith and who knows each of us.
@ dee:
OMG…I can’t stop laughing. So this post is coming up as Number 1 in Google when asking, “Why does Calvinism Make the Problem of Evil Worse?” Don’t tell Tim Challies that! 😛 I wonder what John Piper would think? Is this post proof of a “Pussified Nation” according to Mark Driscoll? And what does Jonathan Leeman think of this? CJ Mahaney? Oh well…with the financial trajectory of SGM, I think I’ll be seeing him in the Louisville drive though at McDonalds asking, “Do you want barbacue or honey mustard with those chicken mcnuggets?”
@ dee:
BTW…Thanks Mom!!! 😀
I’ll give one illustration from the human perspective. When one of my kids was a toddler, he had an injury from a fall that required that he be restrained in a papoose. He was frightened, didn’t understand why he was hurting, why these scary people in a scary place were making him hurt more. To make matters worse, the accident happened during a celebration, a really fun time, and spoiled that fun. He was screaming and his father just stood there and even helped the scary people! His mother, me, couldn’t bear watching and began to be a problem myself for the staff, so needed to leave the ER treatment area.
I have often reflected on that incident and thought about my child’s perspective. Why didn’t my father help me? Why didn’t my father keep me from falling or catch me? Why did my mother abandon me? Why isn’t she here helping me? Why do these scary people tie me up and then hurt me? Why is this happening all happening to me?
It’s not an exact analogy and doesn’t answer all the questions, but it helps me think through how I view my circumstances which I don’t understand. The One I should be able to trust is not helping me, and he seems to have left me and disappeared. But he is doing good to me though it sure doesn’t feel that way. He wants me to experience freedom even though he knows freedom and experiences may result in pain in a fallen world. He doesn’t mind if I scream at him and fight back against the circumstance, because he understands what I don’t.
Dee and Nancy have probably seen similar incidents played out lots of times.
Hoo boy, Calvism vs Arminian brawl. The real drama is in sprinkling vs dunking infants for baptism I’ve always thought. 😛
Half a lifetime ago when I was a Christian, reformed theology really blew my mind. This should make for an interesting discussion. /popcorn
@ Beakerj:
Hey Beakerj, I’ve been in a similar place and I know how much that sucks. Hope you find an answer or that wise old battle axe to talk to.
@ dee:
I’m still laughing….oh man. That’s hysterical! I wonder how other Neo-Cals look at it? Maybe in discussing this James MacDonald can do another 7G Campaign to help grow Harvest Bible Chapel’s $65 million in debt! Perhaps Mark Dever can make blogging a part of 9 Marks! Where’s Matt Chandler when you need him? Is this part of the Explicit Gospel? 😛 Where is Ray Outland and Carl Trueman we need to adjudicate the this question so Crossway and the Reformed Industrial Complex can crank out more books! For the glory of the dollar! Oops…I mean God! 😛
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
Well, I am a wizened old battle axe, and I said something to Beaker.
@Dee – thanks for the encouragement. Another journey. Seems like we’re always journeying to new places. Maybe it’ll count as exercise!
@Gram 3 – thanks for talking about the things you could and couldn’t do. I feel like that. Certain songs I can’t sing. Some days can’t read the Bible, or just certain parts. Helps to know others have been there.
RE: Calvinism & the problem of evil. It should be noted that just because someone is not a Calvinist, or one of the many Reformed flavors, it does not mean that they are automatically Arminian. One of the problems the Neo-Cals have is that they know no other paradigm.
Some of us have bypassed that “discussion” all together.
Doug
I hear you. For purposes of the discussion I was trying to simplify the problem and probably did so poorly. Perhpas I should have said something along the lines of Free Will vs God does it all.
Eagle wrote:
And I’d answer “Whatever God Hath Predestined Me To Want.”
Doug wrote:
Isn’t such total black/white thinking characteristic of a CULT?
I guess I understand how people struggle with this or that and gradually make some peace with whatever is bothering them. I have never had the patience to struggle very much; I have much preferred something more dramatic and immediate than struggling. So at one point in my life I burned the bible in the bathtub. Seriously. Actually. Solemn truth. Except I forgot or did not know how difficult it is to actually burn a book, which things do not burn well. And I was not prepared for how much smoke that sort of thing can actually produce. And, of course, then everything imaginable smells bad, and the ceiling and walls need washed down. But for sure, having done it I felt better. Smelled worse but felt better.
And having burned “the bible says and what that means is and therefore what you must do is” (one sentence which can leave you short-winded unless said very quickly) I was then free to start all over again and see if there was something I could find to actually believe after that.
So, my grandmotherly advice is this: if you burn your bible do it outside in a large drum in the middle of the driveway. Anything else and you may regret it.
OT perhaps, but I just read that the girl who was shot by the Taliban for advocating education for girls has been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
@Dee – No problem. I wasn’t criticizing. I remember sitting at a breakfast table one morning as one of my friends was passionately articulating how he was an Arminian and another friend self-identifying, just as passionately, that he was “of Calvin”. I sat in the middle trying to mediate, which proved to be pointless.
I am personally scarred (sp?) from wounds inflicted by the Calvinists that tried to take over our “neither” church recently. And I have noticed a distinct “cultish” flavor to the more recent variety. (@H.U.G.) The new and improved version is like a designer drug – specifically tailored to their DNA, which is one of the reason, I think, that it was so difficult to have any kind of meaningful dialog with them.
Recently there was a story nearby of a 12 year old girl who was dragged into the woods and stabbed within an inch of her life. She survived, and all “the brotherhood of Calvin” could say was that it was for God’s glory in some way. My 25 year old searcher son immediately saw through their mask, and said that if God was willing to have a child dragged into the woods and stabbed 21 times, yet cause her to survive so that He would be “glorified” in that act, then he wanted nothing to do with their God.
I agreed with him, and told him so. And thanks to their (Calvinist) constant barrage of misinformation about God I have many years of dialog to look forward to with our son as he works through renewing his own mind. The one thing they cannot see, or admit, is that they may have missed the point of God entirely.
Doug wrote:
Yes. Exactly. They have loved their doctrines more than they have loved people or God. What does this say about their doctrines, and how can it be understood as to how people get in such a condition?
@ Nancy:
Doctrine is an idol for Hyper-Calvinists. That’s part of the problem.
Eagle, I’ve been thinking today about how a Malala, a Pakistani Muslim girl and Sailash, an Indian Hindu older man, have together shamed all of the Gospel Glitterati. These two courageous individuals from countries who are enemies stand, at substantial personal risk, for the rights and protection to which girls and all children are entitled. They speak for the rights and protection of child exploitation that the Gospel Glitterati deny to women and children over whom they wish to rule.
The Gospel Glitterati practice the message of the Gospel less than a Hindu and a Muslim who do not have Christ. Shame on the shameless.
@Eagle – First, thanks for sharing your story. Second, a question.
Do you think that the “Hyper” is the norm now? The reason I ask is because almost every movement I have witnesses has been characterized by the second generation of the movement being labeled as “hyper” by the first generation, but the 2nd gen are the most vocal / prolific / evangelistic and seem to be the only voice that is heard.
The 1st gen fades away quietly while the 2gen gives birth to the 3rd gen. I don’t know which gen we are witnessing today, but the hyper label keeps getting passed on as each gen becomes more deadly.
You would think, by now, they would have crafted better answers to the question of evil. Each gen seems to fall in love with the idea of God’s Absolute Sovereignty, but never seems to think about the implications regarding the sexual abuse of children. Like putting a child on the red hot arms of an idol, it may be something that never entered His mind and He is just as surprised as we are that it happens in the church and is just as disgusted as we are that is happens in His name.
Eagle wrote:
Government ordained by God? Really? So when a certain tyrant from recent history burned Germany’s Reichstag swept away the rule of law and set himself up as emperor, it was ordained by God? It’s a fair question I think, and in order to answer it we need to look at Paul’s pronouncements in Romans chap. 13 through a lens of reason, common sense, and who he was writing to:
a) Paul is referring to the Vigiles Urbani which was the city police force
in his day.
b) Paul is making a universal doctrinal statement on government in the sense of the
way we think of government today.
Which makes more sense? a or b?
There was no such thing as The Rights of Man in Paul’s day much less unalienable rights. You were at the whim and caprice of a potentate. Thankfully no more (in principle anyway).
“Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends [i.e., securing inherent and inalienable rights, with powers derived from the consent of the governed], it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.” ~Thomas Jefferson~
@ Estelle:
Merci pour votre re’ponse, Estelle! Vous e^tes vraiment <>!!
(Thank you for your reply, Estelle! You are truly nice!!)
Marie2 wrote:
And I forgot the html for using the vbrackets…..SYMPA….short for sympatique, or nice, in French. ..
Eagle, thanks for your writing, but study ancestral sin through a Orthodox view. There is a website called “Our Life In Christ” and I think a series on Original Sin. They see original sin quite differently than evangelicals.
Muff Potter wrote:
Interesting, Muff. I’ve had similar thoughts regarding the application of Rm 13 – as to whether my submission is to the present day administration’s ever-changing interpretation of the constitution (rapidly heading to that of Rome), or is it to what the founding father’s understanding and original intent was (which your quote of Jefferson supports)?
I was frequently taught the conditions for unsubmissive behavior were very narrow, i.e. only if they were requiring me to “sin”, but now I think the conditions are much broader for refusal to submit when you take into account the Gov’t is based on the Constitution.
@ Marie2:
Merci, Marie2. Vous aussi!
Thank you for your cheery, enthusiastic presence here at TWW. I enjoy reading your comments.
@ Beakerj: beaks, I think that looking in the CofE is wise. That’s a good refuge for folks who’ve been battered by other religious people, imo. (Well, most parts of it, though I wouldn’t personally want to go near most charismatic CofE types, myself.)
Wishing you all the best – I’ve been in a similar place myself. Having a Lutheran pastor visit me in hospital, with communion, when I was at a very low point, did a great deal to start me on the road I’m on at present, though it certainly wasn’t some Big Experience That Changed Everything. It *was* a beginning of this one thing, though: actually knowing that God loves me. Full stop. And having love and grace extended to me when I was at a very, very low point, both physically and emotionally.
@Nancy – your story about burning your bible was hilarious. Sounds like something I would do and end up with an unintended mess!
@Dee – the funny thing I didn’t say about my panic attack was that it occurred when I was looking up the Duggars on the internet and stumbled across some random site of someone who questioned hell. There are some pretty hilarious sites about the Duggars, though, including http://duggarsandbatesconfessions.tumblr.com
@ Beakerj: Something I’ve found out for myself is that the real God isn’t in the business of striking people down. The gods that many so-called xtians follow – well, that’s a different story…
numo wrote:
@ Bridget:
I managed to mangle that quote . . .
@ Muff Potter:
Thank you Muff. This has to be one of the most misunderstood aspects of Western Christianity– not taking historical context into consideration and trying to apply 1st Century thinking to today.
They do not even take into consideration Rome’s intent in Palestine and the inconvenient fact that Pilate was not exactly thrilled about the crucifixtion but placating the Jewish leaders. That one is too complicated to get into here but one thing that wearies me is the fact that too many Western pastors use the Romans passage to ignore the trajectory of individual rights in history. What is more Christian than the value of an individual? Every individual?
We ARE the government through voting/representation and we obey LAWS not MAN. It was designed that way on purpose. So how do we “obey” the government when we go vote. It was designed that our representatives would “serve” us. (I know stop laughing we are giving it up)
The way many pastors teach the Romans passage every 4th of July only serves to make good little Nazi’s and I dare say they teach it that way because they like the heirarchical model that would map to the pews obeying them.
What is even more distressing is too many pastors/churches use the Roman chain of being structure for what they think is the Body of Christ. Jesus said it was a big no no.
If we are to “obey” the government then the United States founding was wrong because its founding directly contradicts that passage. They did not obey King George.
Bridget wrote:
How so? God struck people down for saving the ark from falling over, Lot’s wife, the firstborn of Egypt, Onan, Jeroboam’s son, and the 42 kids who made fun of Elijah’s bald head. And that’s just the old testament.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
If you accept that as god doing it. And if you take the texts as a journalistic record.
I can’t look at it that way, personally.
@ numo:
Just going by what the text says the God of the Bible did. I think it’s cultural mythology myself, like the exodus.
@ numo:
@ Albuquerque Blue:
I can’t take time to talk this morning due to “errands” I have to do starting with a doctor’s appointment early and ending looking for “the best price I can find” for a dehumidifier. I bring this up as an illustration of how my thinking borders on numo and borders on AB sometimes but really seems quite different in its impact on me. So I think a good conversation is lurking here someplace.
Anyhow, what I see in looking at how things are is not easily boiled down to one theory or one conclusion. Like my basement. When I had the new heating system put in I went ahead and let them wrap the ducts (for all the usual reasons). Except now the basement has too high humidity, by far by far, and without the heating/cooling effect of unwrapped ducts I have to go get a dehumidifies or else capitulate to the ever lurking mold in this part of the country. So where is good or bad in this? To wrap or not wrap the ducts, that is the question. So there remains both/and with also “it is complicated” and my desire for simple answers does not do away with the complicatedness of it.
I also see it like a batch of cornbread muffin mix. Some corn meal and some flour and some milk and some egg and some rising agent and don’t forget the salt and a bit of sugar and some oil and maybe some bacon bits–but once you get it all mixed together how do you clearly differentiate each particle from the others. What was once either/or has become “all of the above.”
I think that is where we are with good and bad. I have not found a theory that applies to every situation, even in my imagination, without ending up with something horrendous (the evil god) or something preposterous (all is illusion and nothing is real). I have not ruled out, however, that it is far more complicated than just one simple theory (like the sovereignty of God) and not ruled out that a lot of the competition between ideas may be more because of adherence to group think or brand name (an advertising gimmick) that actual search for truth.
So, off I go in my really old truck (gotta have one) with the intention of coming back with a dehumidifier and with renewal of all my meds (because life is like that). Wheeee.
@ mouseyhair:
Wow. I was thinking the same thing. These are the thoughts I’m struggling with, have been struggling with for some time, but are now “in my face” with the questions from our teens, after coming out of an abusively high-control reformed “church”.
I cannot even bring myself to read the whole post — read some and am digesting it and will come back to read more.
Perhaps there is hope for our teens’ faith, and mine, after all.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
numo wrote:
@ Bridget:
The last paragraph is my response. Sorry for the quote mess 🙄
Eagle,
Thanks for being open and willing to share your journey with the world. It hasn’t been easy, but I hope it has been worth the effort to arrive where you are. Praying that your story will help many to continue on the journey.
@ Lydia:
There’s a huge amount of ground to examine here. Suffice it to say that Christianity is still reeling from the Enlightenment. Ideas in tension have always had that effect. You’ll see the same tension between moderate scholars and the Wahhabi movement in the Muslim world.
The faith I have in Jesus as the promised Messiah to humankind does not depend on ‘inerrancy’ or any other contrivance I am told by others that I must believe in order to be ‘saved’. It depends on me and the gut level resonance I feel when I read the ineffable beauty of Luke’s Magnificat for example, or when I think about Jesus eating grilled fish with his friends after bodily coming back from the dead.
Bridget wrote:
Fair enough Bridget and I wouldn’t expect you to since I’m assuming, and please correct me if I am wrong, you are Christian. As to personal experience, obviously that’s something that has special meaning for you. Unfortunately personal experience isn’t as useful for determining truth claims for others. And as an atheist, I can only go by what the Bible itself says about events from its deity. What is parable, what is metaphor, that’s something that seems to be determined by everyone’s personal bias, experience, or tradition. Add to that historical and literary context and the Bible becomes even more opaque. So I personally try to understand it like when I read and try to understand the Bhagavad Gita or the Koran, and the most common way I can understand it is as mythology, a cultural legend.
Fun discussion, thanks for sharing your perspectives with me y’all.
@ Muff Potter:
Muff, Based upon your precious comments, you might enjoy this. I don’t endorse all his stuff but I found this particularly relevant because I did just this and it changed how I viewed God in the Flesh in ways I cannot begin to explain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_tKUmPxsBQ
Nancy wrote:
I’m with you there Nancy. I have a simple test for good and bad, but it easily expands or changes because life is way to complicated and it’s so hard to know and understand all the angles.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
I’m more of the conviction that the NT is “true myth,” as C.S. Lewis said of the Gospels, but i do think it’s very important to look at the Bible we have now for what it is – an anthology of diverse styles of ancient writing, written and edited over a fairly long span f time, and reflecting the beliefs of the cultures of those who recorded the various stories and legends (I’m not afraid to say that much of Genesis is legend, but we moderns get fooled into thinking it’s journalism due to the style in which it’s written and translated, which sounds like an eyewitness report).
I don’t think the books of the Bible fit easily into categories of literature/genres that are common today, and we make some big mistakes in thinking that we can come to the translated texts *without any background whatsoever* and understand exactly what’s being conveyed – both to the original readership, and to us. It is crucial to learn, to put the books (like the wisdom lit, etc.) into historical context. If we read all of the texts as if they’re the scrolling headlines on CNN, we’re in trouble for sure.
There is non-evangelical/non-fundy scholarship on these topics that is really very good, and there are some evangelicals (like Peter Enns) who have done a lot of work in these areas. I also like to read Jewish commentary on the OT, as xtians have a habit of reading back into the OT texts (typology and the like) and it is *very* hard to find people who are willing to first look at the texts as they might have been viewed by the original readership, way Back When.
I believe in inspiration, but not in inerrancy, and I certainly do NOT believe that God is going to break some poor writer’s brain by giving them information that they cannot understand – like scientific analysis of what little we know about the Big Bang forward. I think God works with people as they are, flaws and all – which can lead to some scary texts (like the Psalm that calls those blessed who smash Babylonian babies into rocks, for example). I also do not believe that just because something is recorded means that people *approved* of it (let alone that God did) – Jepthah’s [sp?] daughter (in Judges) comes to mind.
@ Nancy: Did you find one? I might need to buy one later this year or early next year, so I’m curious as to what you got and info. you checked out in making your decision.
Caveat: my space requirements are tiny compared to yours, since I’m thinking “apartment” and you live in a house.
@ Albuquerque Blue: Oh hey, I get your perspective, and I think it actually is something that’s helpful to religious people (whatever their beliefs) – to take a step back from the texts and look at what they say, without adding “belief” statements to them.
In other words, the Bible (or whatever) as literature.
With the Qur’an, things are a bit different, since Muslims believe it was dictated to Mohammed directly – very unlike the veiw of the Holy Spirit *inspiring* the books of the Bible, though some fundies and evangelicals seem to think it amounts to the same thing, in essence.
*Huge* topic; way too big for anything more than cursory shout-outs in blog comments!
: )
I have a lot of questions I need to respond to…sorry I let the ball drop.
Numo!! I wondered how you were doing? How the heck are you girl? 😀
@ numo:
Oh, yeah. All of that. What you said. I thought there was some good conversation to be had in this area. My personal problem is not with the bible, but rather with what some folks have done with the bible. Whole different things, those two.
@ numo:
I am still looking. I hope to get to Home Depot tomorrow. In the past I have looked at Sears and at Walmart. I can let you know when I know something. The more we have inflation the more careful I get with every dollar, and these things cost a bit.
@ Nancy:
Oh, i agree, though there are some passages (not to mention a couple of books) that i could and do wish were not part of the canon. Am sure i’ve got company on that!
@ Eagle:
Eagle! Thanks so much for asking – am doing ok, all things considered, though things have been a bit crazy.
How about yourself?
@ Lydia:
Thanks for the link Lydia. Wright is a well spoken voice of both reason and conscience between the extremes of say John Piper and Bart Ehrman.
I had the privilege of watching much of Eagle’s journey over on Internet Monk. What I loved was his honesty, and that in that honesty he held a mirror up for the rest of us to see ourselves and the evangelical world from which so many of us came.
I am grateful, not only for Eagle’s honesty and transparency, but also for places like TWW and Internet Monk where people like Eagle can hash things out in relative safety.