Men make counterfeit money; in many more cases, money makes counterfeit men. -Sydney J. Harris link
The third and final post. Yay!
Follow the money, if you can.
OK, here it is in a nutshell. Mars Hill Global was a fund to which you could designate contributions. The purpose of this money was to benefit Mars Hill ministries in foreign countries.
From Warren Throckmorton
According to a presentation at a recent Mars Hill vision breakfast, giving to Mars Hill Global remains robust. For instance, in December 2013, just over $340k was given to Mars Hill Global.
Prior to May 2014, donors could designate gifts to the Mars Hill Global Fund which was distinct from the Mars Hill General Fund. However, sometime in May, the Global Fund disappeared. Now, donations for all purposes have to be given to the Mars Hill General Fund since the option to designate money to the Mars Hill Global Fund is no longer available. One wonders where the Global Fund went in the midst of the fiscal year.
As noted above, Mars Hill reported 2013 giving to the Global Fund but did not report disbursements from that fund.
Huh? The church will not report where the money went?
It appears that the money may not have gone into global efforts after all.
After the recent changes to Mars Hill’s giving webpage, it is clearer that funds given for global outreach now go to the General Fund. There is no Global Fund option. Those who want to give to Mars Hill’s work in Ethiopia or India must hope that some of their donations will go to those ends, but there are no guarantees.
Well, there was no guarantee because it is evident that some of the money was used to pay for a local building.
In a post on the Mars Hill Church website, Mars Hill Everett franchise lead pastor Ryan Williams thanked Mars Hill Global for financial help with the down payment and restoration costs for the old Washington National Guard Armory building now occupied by the Everett church.
There are a number of posts at Warren Throckmorton's website about this issue. Church money was used to pay for buying a NY Times bestseller position for Driscoll. The salaries for the three top pastors at Mars Hill are rumored to be nearing the million dollar range and the church steadfastly refuses to release the salaries of the pastors. Therefore, anyone with an ounce of common sense should ask "Show me the money trail." Some have and have received no response. One man was even removed from his position as a care group leader coach for asking this question.
The Petition
Petitioning Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability: Mars Hill Church, tell us how much "Global Fund" money was spent on "international" outreach.
Mars Hill Church has solicited millions of dollars for its "Global Fund" which, now that questions have been asked, has disappeared. It seems that most of the money was not spent on global or international outreach and that the money simply went into the general fund. Donors and those with a close interest or tie to Mars Hill Church ought to know exactly how much of what they gave was spent on international outreach. This is a part of a greater call for financial transparency from the leaders at Mars Hill Church.
Why should you sign this petition?
If you have ever attended an Acts 29 church, Mars Hill money went to help that church plant. Have you ever bought a Mark Driscoll book? Have you listened to Driscoll's sermons on line and applied his suggestions? Have you thought that your church should adopt his "techniques" or become part of his network? Have you attended conferences at which he was a featured speaker? Then you have given money and time to his enterprise. You have a right to know where your money is going.
In fact, don't you think that a real church with an honest leadership would have a transparent budget? Why wouldn't they tell you how they use the money that is given to the church?
I think this is a way to hold Mark Driscoll, his pastors and the church "leaders" in check. Since they don't have a real elder board, maybe we could provide one for them at least in deed.
Warren Throckmorton's excellent review in The Daily Beast
Are you overwhelmed on all of the nonsense going on over at Mars Hill? Please read Megachurch Star Mark Driscoll's Publishing Downfall. My thoughts: Mars Hill is in deep trouble and it is time for Mark Driscoll to act like the man that he likes to think that he is.
First??!!
First??!!
And I even read the post. 😉
@ Patricia Hanlon:
Patricia…one thing to say!
Ppppppppppppppppplllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllaaaaffffffffffff!!!!! 😛
I am wondering when the IRS or the Washington Department of Taxation are going to get involved? I mean clearly laws have been broken. If money is given to one specific goal, that money can’t be used for another purpose. It’s fraud. It’s nothing but fraud. And non profits and churches have to be super careful in this area. Someone, somewhere….please report Mars Hill Seattle to the IRS, or the Department in Washington State that deals with taxation.
What really bothers me is if you read the comments on Warren’s blog, there are people who are okay with the fact that the money didn’t go for global missions…..
There is a petition that can be signed, apparently each signature sends an email to EE Sutton. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/06/26/change-org-petition-seeks-disclosure-of-mars-hill-global-spending/
I have just signed the petition. Is there any way Mars Hill can be audited by a government agency? So many churches have morphed into big business and so many people bury their head in the sand. If the leaders in mega-churches can hide their profits by misleading their congregations, I don’t see why other businesses should be penalized for hiding their profits from the IRS. I wonder how many social needs could be addressed, if these ministries were required to be more transparent and pay taxes. Mars Hill is no different than $cientology, which is now buying up real estate and buildings to give the “illusion” of a growing and successful religion. Sometimes I wonder if profit is the main motive for “church planting”, especially here in the south where we don’t need more ministries. Ann
This is clearly a violation of law. To solicit funds under pretense is a crime punishable by a fine and possible imprisonment. If it can be proved, Markie D is in deep weeds.
Encourage friends and family to sign the petition in hopes that Mark Driscoll realizes that they need to be transparent with their finances. The members do not know what the pastors salaries are. This is the same with James MacDonald. How sad for the members who are tithing not to know where their money is going. Hope all that read this will sign the petition to help the members of Mars Hill Church.
Margaret wrote:
I notice that the wording of the actual petition/email has been changed slightly so that those of us in “the broader Christian community” are now eligible to sign it.
As Warren Throckmorton’s post shows, the original wording was:
But the petition now reads:
Smart move, in my opinion, because this issue goes to the credibility of the ECFA also. It is more than just a Mars Hill members issue.
Just signed.. Since I am from Washington , I thought this was very important. My family has been touched by this egomaniac and he needs to be held accountable.
(Mars Hill’s most recent annual report lists $12,515,894 in spending on personnel, but does not provide a breakdown of individual salaries. The church has been a member of the the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, a respected accreditation agency, since 2012. The ECFA’s president, Dan Busby, sent me a statement confirming the church’s good standing in light of the fact that it terminated the ResultSource contract before applying for ECFA membership; Busby called participation in schemes such as ResultSource’s “unethical and deceptive.”)
Kyle Firstenberg, who served as a salaried executive pastor at the church’s Orange County site until 2012, told me that Mars Hill’s finances are “not anything close to transparent.” If members asked him questions about the church’s finances, he was authorized to provide general information about the individual branch’s budget, but not the church as a whole. Generally speaking, churches do not always disclose every budget item to their members, but transparency is the rule of thumb; at both of the churches I have been a member of, detailed financial reports, including the pastor’s salary, were presented to all members at annual meetings. “Mars Hill is very shrouded in how they spend and what they spend,” Firstenberg said.
My thoughts: Mars Hill is in deep trouble and it is time for Mark Driscoll to act like the man that he likes to think that he is.
You mean punch you in the nose and throw you under the bus?
we used to listen to the podcasts over a year ago. I received 3 emails from pastor sutton asking for money to help them meet the fiscal budget.
my response to them was to reduce the salaries and that maybe God was humbling them. No response to that message I sent over 3 weeks ago. I believe that they are in enough trouble in meeting their budget they had to take those funds to prop up their ledgers.
Have been attending Mars Hill for several months. We left a church because we were wanting to be involved in a church that preached the gospel, a church where we didn’t constantly hear it’s all about what we are doing for God…guilt, shame…rather than what Jesus did for us…now we are so discouraged and disillusioned, and sick to our stomachs and now maybe becoming some of the “nones.” Just so discouraged about the mega pastor salary, selling God to make money and “leave a legacy” the game …really?!? 🙁
@ Ruth:
Hang in there! Things will get better as you become more informed about what’s really going on in ministries like Mars Hill.
Kevin wrote:
In which case it wasn’t a “fiscal budget” so much as Park Fiscal’s Spending Wish-List. The whole point of a budget is that it’s supposed to be money you can actually afford.
Wise counsel on both counts, Kevin! It’s a shame it fell on deaf ears.
@ Deb:
Morning, Deb! An early start today, I see…
Didn’t intend to gloat (or to double post) but was so stunned I’d actually gotten there first 😉Eagle wrote:
@ Ruth:
Frivolity aside though, Ruth, please allow me to echo Deb’s comment. For one thing, being a None is not a step backwards, nor a counsel of despair. For many of us, it’s a positive and considered step, and a recognition that no matter what paper agreements we do or don’t sign we are members of The Church, which is Jesus’ body. The only membership covenant that will ever count is the one sealed with his blood.
It is hard to follow this in practice, whether you struggle in a guilt-laden “church”, toil as unpaid employees in the business empire of a visionary “pastor”, or struggle to find Christians with whom you can share life. And incidentally, if you do find a gathering of believers locally where you can join in, be yourself, celebrate Jesus etc etc, then that’d be fantastic – there’s nothing special about nones! But something I’ve noticed about TWW over the last year is that it is increasingly becoming a community where we share our experiences and hopes, not just our comments and not just our experiences of abusive church backgrounds. The fact that you’re here suggests that you are looking for something worthwhile, and Jesus himself commended that kind of search.
Kevin wrote:
At least they didn’t punch you in the nose and throw you under the bus like all the other Dissidents.
@ Randall Slack:
Jim Bakker served a federal prison sentence for just this – soliciting funds across national borders (read: worldwide podcasts) then using those funds for something else. I can only assume we aren’t the only ones watching this play out.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
George Whitefield had slavery; now we have people who voluntarily work for free on the pastor’s “plantation” and pay for that privilege with their tithes and offerings.
And yet another public mea culpa from a previous member/worker at Mars Hill:
http://mikeyanderson.com/hello-name-mike-im-recovering-true-believer
Next Big Box is up:
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2014/07/01/what-the-bible-says-about-scorn-and-mockery-tbb/
Margaret wrote:
And so they were given a “good standing” rating by the ECFA and Busby anyway?
Sickening.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Amen, my friend.
Anon wrote:
“One Hand Washes the Other…”
and
“King unto King o’er the world is Brother…”
Because MH wasn’t involved with ResultSource at the exact moment.
Like Douggie ESQUIRE “never knew his Handmaid in the Biblical sense.”
It all depends on what the meaning of “is” is….
Off topic:
*
Anybody got a take on the American Association of Christian Counselors? Are they legit? Is that something I might want to join when I get my education?
Looks like Tyndale and Dr. Throckmorton are going at it.
My money is on Throckmorton.
Tyndale isn’t happy with The Daily Beast article.
http://tinyurl.com/pflkvgz
http://tinyurl.com/oulgnn9
Hey, fellow Canucks – Happy Canada Day!
Original post:
This reminds me of this,
“Ron Luce, World Magazine Debate Why Teen Mania Is One of America’s Most Insolvent Charities”
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/may/ron-luce-world-magazine-debate-why-teen-mania-is-one-of-ame.html?paging=off
From that page:
(off topic)
Isn’t there a lady who sometimes visits this blog who said she has disabilities and uses a wheelchair?
If so, she might want to listen to this Janet Mefferd show (this is from her blog, I’m trying to find a link to the show):
How should the church welcome people with disabilities? Janet will talk it over with Amos Yong, author of “The Bible, Disability, and the Church.”
I’m not sure which of the three links it is(there are three different links/hours for Janet’s Jul 1 show, I have not listened to them yet).
The show about disabilities might be this one (if not, it’s one of the other two July 1, 2014 broadcasts, which you can get from her show archive page):
http://www.janetmefferdpremium.com/2014/07/01/janet-mefferd-radio-show-20140701-hr-2/
Seneca Griggs wrote:
Sorry, Seneca – they don’t have much of a footprint over here that I know of.
I hope this is helpful. (Though, obviously, that is the triumph of hope over expectation.)
Oh, incidentally: good morning to all those of you left of the Pond.
In other news:
NASA’s New Horizons space probe, bound for Pluto, is now (to within 1%) exactly 3 Astronomical Units from its objective. Astronomy geeks can follow its progress at pluto.jhuapl.edu/mission/whereis_nh.php. New Horizons is due to cross the orbit of Neptune, albeit without passing near the planet itself, on 25th August.
I say “is due to” – there’s not, TBH, a great deal happening out there that’s likely to prevent it.
SPORT
Commiserations to the USA following their elimination from the World Cup last night. A number of pundits back here, many of whom ken their fitba’ extremely well, considered the match itself to be the best of the tournament so far, and if it’s any consolation, the US team has won many admirers over the last few weeks.
In other extraneous science news: http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/07/bigfoot-samples-analyzed-lab “In North America, they’re called Bigfoot or Sasquatch. In the Himalayan foothills, they’re known as yeti or abominable snowmen. And Russians call them Almasty. But in the scientific laboratory, these elusive, hairy, humanoid creatures are nothing more than bears, horses, and dogs.”
The last paragraph of the linked article offers important advice on how to use science in dealing with questionable topics.
@ oldJohnJ:
Funny you should bring Bigfoot up, oldJohnJ – because it turns out Bigfoot has indeed been photographed. Again. Maybe.
home.bt.com/news/oddnews/bigfoot-caught-on-camera-11363915556349
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I should add that the above story was listed next to one with the headline “Woman sets fire to house trying to kill spider”. The two stories made a nicely symmetrical pair, I thought.
Dee wrote,
“After the recent changes to Mars Hill’s giving webpage, it is clearer that funds given for global outreach now go to the General Fund. There is no Global Fund option. Those who want to give to Mars Hill’s work in Ethiopia or India must hope that some of their donations will go to those ends, but there are no guarantees.”
The last donation I made to a well known ministry had a box which I could check which would direct my donation to a specific work, such as “hurricane relief for Haiti” or “famine relief in Africa” But there was an asterisk with explanation and disclaimer which allowed the ministry to use my donation where, “most urgently needed.” In other words, the ministry could use my donation as they see fit without any accountability. Mars Hill may be no different.
Joe2
I would direct my donations directly to a ministry that was based in that country and bypass the church. I no longer trust some churches to use the money in the manner that it was intended.
Old JohnJ
Would you like to write a post on how to use science to deal with these topics?
@ Joe2:
Joe said, “an asterisk with explanation and disclaimer which allowed the ministry to use my donation where, “most urgently needed.”
Dee said, “I would direct my donations directly to a ministry that was based in that country and bypass the church. I no longer trust some churches to use the money in the manner that it was intended.”
++++++++++++++++++
The observation has been made many times that church goers (or Christian joe and joanne schmoe) lack critical thinking skills. If someone wants their money to go to a cause, do the dang research (charity navigator, etc) & find one that is trustworthy and donate directly to them.
(just to underscore both of your comments)
dee wrote:
The problem is not using science. It is the refusal of many to accept what science ultimately says about a topic. In the current threads, specifically the conspiracy ones, the lack of acceptance, not science results, leads to faulty conclusions. Sadly, I don’t have any insight on how to correct this.
Seneca Griggs wrote:
I support almost any association, etc., because staying in the loop is important. However, I would not consider AACC to be much value for the simple fact that they do not require state certification, etc. I would think as a professional that you would be better served by something like a fellowship that is a collection of licensed and practicing professionals. I am not in counseling, but that has been my experience.
oldJohnJ wrote:
Oh, John. If you ever do solve that one, please share 🙁
Seneca Griggs wrote:
Are you training in christian counseling Jimmy? Is this the education you’re talking about?
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Yes! Training is an enormous investment in time and money. To me, life is too short to not focus and work in a straight line.
They might be cheaper than real professional schools, to get an idea of the landscape, but they look kinda cheez-y to me. …. As far as being a real professional development group
I haven’t read all the comments above, but where is the money is a question many critics of mega churches have. It seems strange that a global fund would be used to refurbish a local church instead of to support missions in some far off area of the world. Laypeople concerns and a desire to have those books looked at is what caused the demise of 2 Rivers Baptist church. My only concern is that this can’t happen in our society because of separation of church and state, even if a churches funds are being pilfered by privileged church leaders instead of being used for what they are designated.
I’m getting the “Eagle tingle” :-p Another looming post on church corruption! It will be either Mars Hill, SGM, sexual abuse, etc… Oh bring it on baby!!
Courts are more lenient with churches than with cases involving secular businesses, and this has to do with separation of church and state. So if tithe money or funds are in appropriately used by unethical religious leaders for example, it becomes a church and state issue. Most of the time all concerned people can do is broadcast possible corruption in blogs like Wartburg watch or First Baptist Jax watchdog , or in the secular and religious press. Many people would like to know where all this money goes. It isn’t all that sacrosanct an issue.
so back to the question at the top (turn on bullhorn):
“WHERE’D THE MONEY GO, MARKY?”