Ray Ortlund, demonstrating gospel™ boldness, wrote a post on the virtues of Mark Driscoll's apology called What Just Happened.
He owned up. And that’s amazing. Not that he did so. I wasn’t surprised, because I know him. What’s amazing is not how often he repents but how rarely other Christian leaders repent.
…May his willingness to face himself and own up wonderfully spread to all of us.
However, he won't let anyone comment. I bet I know why…
Comments are closed.
We must always remember that Ortlund also exonerated CJ Mahaney here and here, so this puff piece should come as no surprise.
…Personally, it appears to me that C. J. has even over-confessed to his critics.
….“We do not believe C.J. Mahaney’s confessed sins have disqualified him from Christian ministry. Or to put it positively, from all that we have seen, heard, and read, we believe C.J. Mahaney is, at this moment in time and based on those sins which he has acknowledged, still fit to be a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ and a pastor to others.”
So as a public service to our dear readers, we have put this post up. We ask that the responses on this post be directed to this particular article. We are about to post a more important piece which will throw a shadow on Ortlund's breathless admiration piece.
Once again, The Gospel Coalition leaders remind us that they represent just the same old, same old…
The Great TGC Oz Hath Spoken: “MerkyD Contra Comments Are Forever Closed?”
“But let’s understand what just happened. His repentance just pulled the rug out from underneath all the Driscoll-haters out there. He shifted the moral burden to them. Not that that was his purpose. But it was an outcome.” ~ Dr. Ray Ortlund, Council member with The Gospel Coalition (TGC). 12:58 PM CT. 03/17/14
ray…bro, da Marzhil bus will get a fresh coat of paint and da mayhem will cointinue…
Bleed, Follow, or Get Outa Da Way…
Can a leopard change itz spots?
Or a Marzhil Bus bully his antics?
“Bring me higher love” ?
Things lõõk so bad for MerkyD everywhere,
In this whole christian world, he practices what he preaches… ‘fairness’?
MerkyD’s walk’in blind, he try’s hard ta sêê,
Falling behind in what could be? (1)
turn around is ‘fair’ play?
(1) comic relief :[think…] Stevie Winwood -“Higher Love”
When do we get ta sêê da Cheshire Cat?
follow’in da white rabbit, huh?
“If you wanna know…he went that-a-way –>”
comic relief: Ambrosia: “Nice, Nice, Very Nice” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75AtZcjChGE
Pastoral’s – Pocket Da Change :”Sign Of Da Times, Perhaps?”
Today, american 501(c)3 church pastors are sooooo turning to an extremely high level of sophisticated finical planning to shelter and conceal massive amounts of their income. —-> Follow me, and I shall make you a fist full of tax deferred dollars?
Q. What ta do when ‘thirty pieces’ is not enough?
Ans. Declare : “No Joy” ?
Mars Hill Pastor Mark ★ Driscoll: “To reset my life, I will not be on social media for at least the remainder of the year…In the meantime, Mars Hill and Resurgence will continue to post blogs, sermons, and podcasts on my social media accounts, but otherwise I’m going offline…”
Da Marzhil Religious Empire strikez back?
MerkyD: “No, I am your father…HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!”
Use da WORD OF GOD, Luke!
(zap, Zap…”It is written…”)
Is Resurgence da new proverbial Marzhil death star, perhaps, built out in stealth ta contain a whole new neo-cal clone army?
Greater Is He that is within us than He that is in the world! Church, Beeeeeeeee Empowered!
Jesus : “I have overcome the world!”
(smiley face goes right [here] <—< )
He that runs away…live to fight another day?
…think James J. Braddock Beats Lasky in "Cinderella Man"…
"Wow! , …what a tangled web we weave when we attempt to deceive…" ~ Martin
comic relief: Lego 'Resurgence' Death Star II Stop motion Assembly in 3d?
bonus: How to play da Darth Merky's theme?
No offense, Sopwith, but this no longer is a laughing matter.
There are many victims that were thrown under the wheels of Driscoll’s bus and there does not seem to be any move to acknowledge the gravity of the horror or make restitution. “I’m sorry”? “Errors were made”? “He owned up”?
I do not think those words mean what he thinks they mean. Get the Gospel-Wash to English dictionary out…
They hold fast to their evil purpose; they talk of laying snares secretly, thinking, “Who can see them?”
Mr. TedS. No offense 🙂 you’ve got a wedgeeee. Lighten up! one of da greatest wayz ta neutralize deze proverbial Religious Monsters under da church bed is ta LAUGH – AT – THEM… make Dean Swift proud! These proverbial pastorz are a joke to da “Body Of Christ”, and they are certainly a joke ta Jesus: The Greatest Among You Shall Be Your Servant WHAT?!? ….NOT VARoooooooM BuS ThUmPeRs, — Victim! , take dat…Thump! THUMP! Da ain’t da way…No! No! “Religious Abuse Ain’t Da Way!!!” Think…Stevie Wonder : “Superstition”
…what in the world?
Like I said in another thread on this, it’s a cowardly move by Ortlund. Post a PR piece and refuse to defend it by not allowing comments. Seems to be a modus operandi with these guys.
Basically it allows them to define exactly what it is MD has done, no discussion or questions allowed. Even if it’s blatantly a ridiculously positive spin on what he actually did. We have been ‘told’ from on high what we are to think.
Blatantly ignoring the hurt and trivialized is not exactly a Christian trait. I found the article terrible in that it acknowledged as much as MD did in his letter to the website–very little. I’m hoping enough voices will make this sort of response stop.
These so called 501(c)3 ‘religious’ men have made a laughing stock of Christianity in the United States.
Let the religious circus CON-tin-ue?
This is so sick and twisted. Where does one even begin?
That’s what Ortlund thinks repentance looks like!?!? And now the haters have a moral burden? To do what? Be offended at being called haters. Maybe Ortlund is trying to be hip in his old age by imitating Futick?!?
We have a problem Houston . .err . . Ortlund and TGC.
Ortlund does not understand the word “repent”. Repent implies action, not word.
A narcissistic abuser can stand before their beaten, tortured family and apologize and weep and mourn their indiscretions, but it means nothing if they later go back to abusing–it is merely a common tactic of the sadist.
Driscoll can APOLOGIZE (if you call what he did an apology), promise to lay off social media, promise to be a well-behaved mega pastor, but whether he has REPENTED or not–that is, truly turned away from his behavior and sought God in repentance–is something that cannot possibly be determined at this point.
How is it that my seven year old can grasp this basic concept but Ortland, a supposed leader in Christendom, cannot?
Some of you may know this, but it definitely bears repeating.
From the Mars Hill Church website posted September 3, 2009:
At the end of this little blurb, there is a link to read more about Ray Ortlund Jr. and Acts 29, and I'm left wondering why it takes me to a blank page on the Acts 29 website.
I just asked on Ortlund’s previous blog entry why comments are closed…my comment went through immediately, but we will see how long it stays there…
Well since DA Carson has been so silent about Driscoll plagiarizing his material maybe Driscoll needs him so he can plagiarize a new source 😉
Is Carl Trueman a Driscoll-hater?
Maybe it’s me, but if I had messed-up bad in my position, I would have resigned, actually been told to resign and start over.
Keeping your job, your pay, your status really is not an act of repentance.
I remember Jimmy Swaggart doing this same thing and getting in trouble shortly afterwards again.
Maybe it’s because I’ve seen Southern ministers mess up royally, apologize and carry on like nothing ever happened….I remember here in Texas Karla Faye Tucker who killed a man with a pick-axe converting to Christ in what many now think was an attempt to save her life….
I don’t know, we as Christians need to forgive, but I wonder just ” how much?”
I think we forgive seventy times seven. However, someone’s genuine repentence doesn’t mean that they get out if the consequences of their actions. If people break the law and are genuinely remorseful, that is a good thing, but they still need to be tried, convicted and sentenced. If restitution is possible, such as in the case of theft, they should work and repay the money when they are released.
People should also understand that no matter how genuine their repentance is, they cannot demand that people trust them again until they have earned it. We can’t judge someone’s heart and we (victims and society) have to protect ourselves. Someone who is genuinely repentant will understand this and not be resentful of restrictions.
People with grave responsibilities who betray the trust that has been placed in them should expect to lose their positions permanently. A teacher who molests children should never teach again. A minister who is spiritually abusive, covers up wrongdoing, commits a crime or who engages in scandalous conduct should not remain in the ministry. There are others who can assume these positions and be true role models.
On another note, KD, do people now think Karla Faye Tucker was faking her conversion? I thought the calm and peaceful way she faced death was a good indication that she was genuine.
Justn Taylor posted an article on Driscoll’s confession a few days back (well, OK, over 6 years ago). Although Taylor himself made no comment, the comments were open. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2007/11/09/driscolls-confession-on-pride/?comments#comments
Interesting to read them all these years later. Very much like comments/arguments over Driscoll today! Next, when I get time, I think it would be fun to compare Driscoll’s ’07 confession/repentance with his ’14 letter saying he’s been apologizing and stepping back from some media.
Trust but verify; do diligence; protect yourself?
(Da spiritual life you save may very well be your own…)
“Pastoral ‘Father’, what really, really, big teeth you have!”
comic relief?: Lennon & McCartney: “Lady Madonna” – sung by the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University Choir
Bonus: Buddy Guy : “Long Way From Home”
“Tangle’d In Da Wood, Perhaps?”
>>—> Apparently, [IMHO] the main reason(s) behind Mark Driscoll’s so called apology letter (addressed to members of Mars Hill church) was because: The overwhelming identification of his wrong doing going public; The ramifications of his actions; The rallying of public awareness utilizing the Internet to address those wrongs; The effect of these ‘distractions’ were having on the undermining of his position within the Mars Hill organization proper; The harm this was having on the greater marketing plans of Resurgence; The effect upon his livelihood and his future earnings (i.e. pocketbook).
Beware, the massive power of public awareness…
da whole dang world is watching?
Forget ‘sorry’, folks…it’s just business?
intermission?: Chicago – Live [Full Concert]. 1 hr. 40 min. (grin)
A penent man deserves another chance? At what? No one is questioning his salvation (well, maybe they are, but that isn’t on the table, nor something I would entertain). People are questioning his pastoral capabilities and capacity.
Let’s take pastors as seriously as surgeons. Let’s say there was once a good surgeon, he could cut and sew like the best of them. Over time, however, he began to make bad calls, his scalpel cut a major artery, he did more damage than he corrected. Something was no longer right. What would/should be the outcome of this man’s career? Should he stay because he apologized profusely and once, long ago, was a good surgeon? Or, should he quit, because the work he does is too important to continue in a reckless way?
My views on MD are not about his salvation. My views on MD are on his competence as a pastor. His treatment of the other elders, his plagiarizing, not crediting co-writers in his books and his buying himself onto the NYT bestseller list are pointing to a problem of incompetency. I suspect his apology too, since it is the second time he refers to “his angry young prophet days”, yet this time round, it wasn’t about his anger, it was about his deception. So, is it, or is it not a recycled apology? We have to look at anything he writes these days with a cocked brow because he is also a plagiarist who uses other people to write his work.
MD writes an apology (really, did he? Did he hire someone to do it? Did he recycle his own, older material?, did a PR firm make him write one? he has also done those things I just questioned). So, if it is genuine, great, now step down from top leadership. Have someone else run the franchise and keep you accountable. You are no longer functioning well on your own. It is not even how genuine the apology is, although I have reservations, I hope it is sincere; it is weather you can actually competently do your job. The Bible says test all prophesies. So, I am testing your prophesies – were you called to be a pastor by God, or perhaps your own desires? Were you once an angry young prophet, or perhaps you were an young angry man who was bitter in your marriage, but not a prophet at all?
Even if it was all good, like Saul, God can be grieved that he put a person in charge. Just because Saul was anointed King, didn’t stop God from removing the anointing and giving it to David. Just because you were once a great preacher doesn’t mean you are now. Let’s look at now. It was 7 years since his first apology. He claimed he wanted to be a Father figure since then. He has insulted “effeminate” worship pastors, insulted a radio host questioning himself on plagiarism, been found to have plagiarism instances in numerous books, found to have misled people about authorship of your books, bought his way onto a best-seller, is this role-modle material? If not, why is he still a pastor? Pastor and Christian aren’t one in the same. He could take a break from pastoring entirely for a while. That has nothing to do with his apology. It has to do with whether people consider him competent enough to lead wisely anymore.
It isn’t about chances, it is about doing what should be done. Calling for someone’s resignation isn’t about hate or judgement or vengeance, it is about accountability, and respect for God’s requirements in the role of pastor.
That’s my response, anyways.
I’ve lost track of how many times Driscoll has “repented” and then eventually gone back to his sinful behavior. Like the boy who cried “Wolf!”, it’s harder and harder to take his repentences seriously.
It sure ain’t about da dang MD apology…
“It has to do with whether people consider him (ed. MD) competent enough to lead wisely anymore. It isn’t about chances, it is about doing what should be done. Calling for someone’s resignation isn’t about hate or judgement or vengeance, it is about accountability, and respect for God’s requirements in the role of pastor.” ~ Val
Having spent way more than my fair share of time at university, reading copious amounts of articles, reports, and books, one of my favourite keyboard shortcuts is control-f so I can quickly find whatever term or paragraph I’m looking for. Using control-f on Ortlund’s piece, I searched for the words sorry and apologise. Zero results for each. So I was wondering: does that mean that Ortlund recognises that Driscoll’s statement did neither of those things? And if he recognises that Driscoll hasn’t said sorry for what he’s done – which surely means he hasn’t really repented – then why exactly is Driscoll’s statement worth anything?
Have we lost the old concept of, “actions speak louder then words?”
Driscoll speaks an apology, now it’s supposedly our burden to forgive or else we are the offenders? What a crock of BS.
There were two thieves being put to death near Jesus crucifixion. One sought forgiveness from his sins, one did not. One died forgiven of his sins, one did not…both suffered the consequences of stealing, death.
Asking for forgiveness and promising to do better is good but will ring hollow if not genuine. Driscoll refraining from engaging in social media doesn’t ring true to me as turning away from what are the root issues : plagiarism, lying, despising women, belittling, bullying those who disagree……joyfully throwing them under the bus, etc. MR. tough guy seeks to remedy his errant behavior by receiving a slap on the wrist……coward and hypocrite.
The church doesn’t need to worry about Mark Driscoll. The church needs to recognize you and others like you are the threat. Masquerading as discerning you really think you have special knowledge and can sit back behind your keyboard and criticize and seek to destroy the reputation of men you have never met. Thank God for Ray Ortlund. You can say anything you want to him…but you’re going to have to drive to Nashville and look him in the eye. It does seem that the church is wising up to the dangers of the 21st century and returning to biblical relationships. It will mean the end of these kinds of blogs and men like you who I fear are best understood through a careful reading of 2 Peter. Thank God Ray Ortlund has courage enough to stand up to the fear-mongers. Well done, Ray.
And what if he did it on purpose, and then bragged about the pile of dead bodies behind the hospital?
My husband and I drove to Nashville back in January to meet with Wade Burleson and his wife, who is earning her doctorate from Vanderbilt.
If we returned to Nashville, do you really think Ray Ortlund would meet with me to discuss these matters?
More than that. I’ve seen them turn the apology and weeping and mourning and remorse on and off like a light switch. CLICK ON! CLICK OFF! CLICK ON! CLICK OFF!
HERE COME THE SOCK PUPPETS AND DROOLING FANBOYS WITH HANDFULS OF ROCKS FOR THOSE WHO UTTER BLASPHEMY AGAINST THEIR GOD.
Hillbot or Poe? It’s hard to tell.
Just went to Ortlund’s blog post. Comments appear to be open. Let the pushback begin!
I wish I could tell Ray Ortlund that ‘declaring’ that Driscoll’s dribble is true repentance does not make it so. Then going on to declare how wonderful repentance is and how everyone should be doing it all the time doesn’t support his first declaration.
Driscoll, who has a degree in communication, strung together some sincere sounding words and made some lame promises that have nothing to do with repentance and has everything to do with, “take cover till this settles” and “stick your fingers in your ears and say, ‘La, la, can’t hear you la, la.'”
This is not repentance. These are evasive tactics. Repentance has to do with turning and doing the opposite of what you were doing that was wrong. In the case of Driscoll, he was sneaky and he took from other people. Being transparent (rather than hiding) and restitution are in order.
Think in terms of Zaccheus.
Luke 19:8 Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I [d]will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I [e]will give back four times as much.” 9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
Besides the NYT and plagiarism issues. Driscoll needs to repent, turn from his wicked way of doing church and hurting people, oppressing them and/or throwing them under the bus. When we see he has actually changed his ways, then we know that he has repented.
All we see are words, words, words from a wordsmith. Yawn. Big Fat Hair Deal. This is the typical Driscoll hot air routine. Same stuff, different day. Nothing had changed. No repentance detected here.
Well, oops. Sorry, now they’re closed. But I promise, I clicked on the comment link and was encourage to be the first to comment.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I don’t suppose I need to tell you who else turns it off…
I’ve never met Driscoll. But I have seen the content of his perverted and unbiblical teachings. I have seen the rotten fruit produced by his corrupt teachings. I’ve watch lusty fanboys throw off decency and demand porn from their wives (if they were married) and disrespect all women, even older women, empowered by Driscoll’s perversion.
BTW, I have no real power to destroy Driscoll’s reputation. It is my job, as a Christian, to uncover error and wrong doctrine when I see it. That’s all.
Driscoll has been destroying his own reputation by opening his own mouth and throwing his own victims under the bus. I have nothing to do with those things. He’s done them himself. He can’t keep going on, sinning like this, without some repercussions.
It’s time for Driscoll to reap some kickback from years and years of sowing bad seed.
You yelling a people who are point out his sins does not undo his sins. Nor does it hide them in any way. It just makes you look bad.
I’m sure that you know better than anyone else that if I were to actually do that, I’d never get close enough. These men have their riches to surround them with yes men and sycophants. Their defenses are high and they can hide behind them.
Also, when Ortland puts his words out there on public forum, freedom of speech doesn’t just protect him. It protects me.
He has the right to say it.
I have the right to point out how stupid his words are.
End of story.
Get over it.
@ Clay Crouch:
Yes, I saw that too. Why are comments turned off only on this post???
Face it, Chuck.
These blogs aren’t going away. They will continue to point out the sins of Mark Driscoll and his sycophants, like Ray Ortlund.
Which parts of 2 Peter are you referring to. There are three chapters and I don’t recall any of them dealing with defending unrepentant leaders and letting them getting way with their garbage.
Perhaps you could enlighten us.
Nope. Ray is standing up to defend Driscoll because there is a lot of money involve. Plus also, he may fear Driscoll, a bit.
Driscoll is a money maker. His ministry fueled by lusty fanboys who fear God enough to know worldly porn is bad, but fall all over themselves looking for ways to feed their porn addiction while also (falsely) believing that they are right with God.
Evidence that Ortlund is not the courageous hero Chuck makes him out to be.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Sorry. All I could think of was:
“Clap on, clap off.”
If you haven’t yet already, check out this, hot off the TGC presses:
So Ray and Mark can make comments on blogs and in social media and YOU expect us to take it to heart, but people who want to respond to their words should drive to wherever to talk to Ray and Mark in person. What a bunch of hypocritical BS.
Dave A A wrote:
I’d love to read that.
From Driscoll’s apology
I’m distressed by Grace’s powerlessness and lack of a voice in their relationship. She dare not tell him plainly that it is not working for her lest she “discourage” him. NO ONE corrects MD!!! NO ONE!!!
^^There’s plenty more where these came from!! MD would do well to look at “fool” in Proverbs while keeping his eyes glued to the mirror.
Thank you for allowing me to get that off my chest. Just breaks my heart what his wife and kids must go through with him…
I find it ironic that Mark Driscoll is stepping away from the social media spotlight when that is what appears to have launched his ministry and given him tremendous notoriety.
Actually, they’re doing a pretty good job of destroying their reputations without Deb and Dee’s help.
His referring to Deebs as “men like you” suggests that this might be a copy-and-paste “mailshot” sent out to a list of blogs.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Or perhaps he assumes they must be men based on their lack of submissiveness 🙂
Because, ya know, only men are allowed to speak out in some realms.
@ Dave A A:
Warren Throckmorton did this comparison of MDs 2007 repentance and the 2014 repentance.
But not on a blog? He doesn’t sound very brave to me.
Well said! Personal experience with a master abuser (a parent) has confirmed the truth in this for me. I have heard my parent deny absolutely everything, and then 5 minutes later say “I wouldn’t have done it if you weren’t so bad”….and not see the total disconnect between the two statements.
Abusers of all types seem to share the same broken set of actions.
I would love to see Mr Driscoll truly repentant but will not be holding my breath….
I stand firmly with Mr. Ted S. Laughter may well be a way to deal with pompous, self righteous people, although I personally would advocate simply turning away and not giving them any more attention (which is what they crave).
However, laughter is not a compassionate or even logical response to the legitimate abuses. Bullying, lying, cover ups, continued association with known law breakers (those who did not report abuse, etc) is not justice or seeking righteousness and restoration for the many who were abused in so many ways.
Laughter makes light of suffering. It is like making a Holocaust joke–which I have heard. Not funny. Ever.
Same here for the victims.
I may not be up to the task. 🙁 Likewise, I’d like to see a point-by-point refutation of Ortlund’s article.
He makes excellent points! Maybe he’ll do the side-by-side I’m thinking of, like he’s done on the plagiarism.
I think it’s interesting that the “thieves” who were crucified with Jesus didn’t simply run away with a piece of fruit from some merchant’s stall. The word in Greek that is translated “thief” is lestes and means brigand; in Jesus’ day this meant a particular kind of thievery. It was perpetrated by someone who was involved in stealing in order to finance the revolt against Rome – including use of what we now term guerrilla warfare – which was not simply petty thievery, but a crime against the State. That’s why they and Jesus were crucified – crucifixion was the way traitors and enemies of Rome were punished. That’s how all 3 of them were viewed by the Romans. A more up-to-date translation of that word lestes would be “terrorist brigand.” This still happens, nowadays often by kidnapping for ransom, and the kidnappers may or may not let their victims go.
(with thanks – always – to and for N.T. Wright)
When MD started popping off with his nonsense, I would get really angry. Perhaps I’ve simply gotten used to it, but now I look at MD and sigh – because he is obviously one frightened, suffering puppy, because his wife and kids are suffering as well, because he is leading sincere people God only knows where. I’ve been out of the Evangelical Circus for some years, and one thing I have learned along the way is that I have to remember that I am just as fearful, and need to keep watch over my own innards and beg God to deliver me from acting so often from my fears.
I am extremely dissappointed that so many Christians are calling Driscoll’s statement an “apology” and using words like “repentance,” etc.
Acknowledging that “mistakes were made” and “people were hurt” is absolutely NOT the same as saying “I screwed up via X, Y, Z…” and “I hurt people via X, Y, Z…”. It’s classic crisis management language used by governments and corporations to deflect criticism and avoid liability. It absolutely is not appropriate for use in the context of Christian ministry.
As for repentance, I see it as requiring full, clear assumption of responsibility (not obfuscating via passive language as Driscoll has done). I also see it as requiring legitimate change in behavior. How many times has Driscoll “apologized” for the same basic offenses? If a Christian pastor is unable to change these types of behavior, he should be removed from leadership. It’s not a matter of forgiveness (he can certainly be forgiven and restored to fellowship, given the right circumstances), but according to Scriptural guidelines for church ministry, certain repeated patterns of sin disqualify individuals from certain ministry roles.
Much enjoy your comments there! Now I see the Rev Dr John Carpenter MDiv PhD has joined in– once again trying to shift the focus to Caner.
Since we’ve heard from Ortlund and DeYoung, I’ll link their fellow Mahaney panelist Carl Trueman. (I wonder if he regrets doing that?) Someone may have linked this last week, but it’s really very good! http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2014/03/celebrity-pastors-a-retrospect.php
A couple of good lines: “the critics were to be treated as the problem, but the band was to play on.” and “Perhaps most disturbing is the way in which we also seem to be living in our own version of that final scene of Animal Farm. The language being used by the church regarding its behavior (‘it is not illegal,’ ‘it was unwise,’ ‘mistakes were made’) is obviously parasitic on the venal patois developed by secular politicians caught with their trousers down.”
Now off to google “venal patois”… 🙂
The link in link form. http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2014/03/celebrity-pastors-a-retrospect.php
To pick up on the phrase:
There’s no need to repeat what @ LawProf already said so well regarding what a verbal statement can and can’t accomplish.
To extend the point, those out there who actually do hate Fiscal already bear a moral burden that no statement of anyone else’s can move. God himself does not want the death of a sinner, but that sinners should turn from their sins and live. Nothing Fiscal says or does would give me an excuse to hate him. There are people who hate, and they’ll continue to do so. Fiscal’s apology (if that’s what it is) has only “pulled the rug out from under them” as a political move, and realistically it has not done even that, because they’ll just hate him for it.
But actually, I don’t hate Mark Driscoll. I do wish that he would behave like an ambassador for Christ, and not an ambassador for corporate America. I wish he would stop speaking and acting as though he were the only person in the Mars Hill organisation (or the English-speaking world) who can read the Bible – this does not encourage healthy growth in the church. I did hate to see his pronouncements against Petrie and Meyer, and his pursuit of ever-greater prominence for himself. Many people have wandered from the faith seeking to get rich, after all. If he repents, it does not inconvenience me at all – quite the reverse. It would be a thing.
The real haters of Mark Driscoll are not his critics – they are his fanboys. The people who reflexively defend him against any attempt to call attention to his misdeeds and spur him on to good deeds. Perhaps they think they’re being loyal. Actually, they’re sticking poisoned knives in his back.
It is not easy holding a man like Fiscal to account. In some ways he is very capable and has developed his network and stage persona very cleverly; but in other ways he behaves much younger than his years. He despises “chickified” men and used (so he said) to appreciate the way Lief Moi would go “toe-to-toe” with him. But he got rid of Moi early on and never replaced him. Perhaps Petrie and Meyer were too timid and respectful in their questioning of his de facto abolition of plural eldership in the Mars Hill organisation; perhaps he thought they were chickified and girly and despised them for it. Perhaps if they had each stood against him, separately, with great boldness and strong personality, and broken his nose, he would have respected their biblically masculine strength and accepted correction from them.
Or perhaps not. Either way, Fiscal has marched a long way down the path he has on, where a congregation of thousands must all listen to and follow him and where he hangs out only with his buddies who agree with him, and where what’s good for Park Fiscal must be good for Jesus. (For which Jesus, I honestly don’t know.) He’s going to have to do a lot more than post a blog comment to signal repentance.
Jeff – by George, you’re right! No woman could be as bold; Deebs must both be men IRL.
I think we should be told.
Having met them both, if they are men, it is one of the best costuming and make up jobs ever. I don’t think people in Hollywood could pull this one off. They are very with it, pulled together, and attractive ladies, solid Christians, students of people, churches and the Bible, and lovely people with whom to share a lunch or dinner. And I have me the husband of one as well.
Correction: “I have met the husband of one as well.” Typing a bit too fast.
@ Dave A A:
Glad to entertain ;). Yes that John Carpenter is a piece of work isn’t he? I would love to ask him some questions…after I explain to a poster on the Reformed Forum (“John Piper’s 12 features of the New Calvinism” linked by DeYoung…read it and enjoy) that an abused woman doesn’t have to call her elders before she calls the cops…nothing really changes, does it?
An Attorney wrote:
Wow. Just goes to show how far the haters will go to perpetuate their webs of deceit.
(Er – obviously, I’m parodying here!!)
Re-read his clever “apology” letter.
“To reset my life, I will not be on social media for at least the remainder of the year…In the meantime, Mars Hill and Resurgence will continue to post blogs, sermons, and podcasts on my social media accounts…”
He instituted bylaws that did away with the authority of the church elders and his accountability to them. Is he “repenting” of that? No. He brags about it. Again, see his “apology” letter.
“In the past few years, we have also made significant improvements to how we are governed and organized as a church.”
And as for those persons he has caused pain or hurt, he makes it sound like they are the ones who have not come to a place of peace – so he is really not culpable after all.
“I understand that people who saw or experienced my sin during this season are hurt and in some cases have not yet come to a place of peace or resolution.”
Thank you Molly.
His version of “The Thing” was one of the better monster-movies of all time, though.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Er – we’re talking about the same John Carpenter, aye?
“Present mirth hath present laughter, what’s to come is still unsure.” ~ Wm. Shakespeare
“Laughing faces do not mean that there is absence of sorrow! But it means that they have the ability to deal with it.” ~ Wm. Shakespeare
You are Soooooooo well intended 🙂 but in this regard “The use of laughter”, so mis-Taken….
Laughter is one of the greatest tools ever given by our creator, as it seeks to break the bonds others would forge against us, to rob us of our idenity in Christ, our thirst for righteousness, and a life of peace and joy, in the Holy Ghost.
(please do read my next comment…)
…argument for a week, laughter for a month, and a good jest for ever. ~Wm. Shakespeare
“My mission is to seek and save that which was lost…” ~ Jesus
MD has filled, like the so called SGM cult leader Charles Joseph Mahaney, the minds of his followers with perverted nonsense. His book “Real Marriage”, is filled with perverted nonsense. He like the example supplied by the so called cult leader Charles Joseph Mahaney, – has taken complete control of the Mars Hill ministry, of which at one point he apparently implied he was the soul founder. Like Mahaney, he got rid of others and took control. This is his 501(c)3? Who else is named in the Mars Hill documents of incorporation? hmmm… (inquiring minds would like to know)
TWW and other blogs, have pursued a public awareness campaign to warn the young, the unsuspecting, the overt trusting, that there is a clear an present biblical danger concerning this Washington State registered religious 501(c)3 non-profit called Mars Hill. TWW has been warning it’s readers, with credible insider testimony concerning it’s documented abuses, for some time now:
This religious 501(c)3 non-profit can slap on Reformed Orthodoxy, and find approval and companionship with other religious 501(c)3 that are doing the same thing, hiding behind and promoting their own agenda(s).
In the end these religious 501(c)3 non-profits are used to seek , to manipulate and to control individuals primarily within the age group of 18-25. In Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill model, his primary focus is single men ages 18-25.
(Note: Women in the Seattle, Washington area are apparently viewed by this church ministry as secondary, and ancillary to the current Mars Hill vision.)
How many know that the community outreach of this Seattle, Washington multi-location religious 501(c)3 non-profit has relegated women in the age groupe 18-25 as ancillary and of secondary primary focus, if at all?
Contrary to what has recently been stated, TWW need not seek to destroy the reputation of these so called 501(c)3 religious men, nor is it (if I may be so bold) nor has it ever been their purpose, nor the intended purpose of this blog. This is a blatant bold face lie. It would appear these false shepherds have brought this calamity upon themselves, and fallen into the ditch they have lain for others.
TWW has provided the public with ‘factual’ public awareness, and testimony of which I and many, many others are grateful! 🙂
The kingdom of God, as you know, is not in food, nor is it in drink, but in righteousness, peace, and joy, in the Holy Ghost.
I comment the faithful of those Christ, Jesus has called, that are presently seeking such a kingdom, where God’s dear and precious Son does reign; to those who promote righteousness, peace, and joy, to those who care for the homeless, the dis-advantaged, the hungry, the needy, the widow, the orphan, those victimized, and those abandoned, and seek to keep themselves un-spotted from this present world system, this present darkness, who will fight the good fight, reminded of the One that has essentially bought them from the prince of darkness, by His own blood.
Faithful is He that has called you, faithful is He who shall bring it to pass.
His eyes are ever upon da sparrow! Take hope in this as you dust off your breastplate… (grin)
“When all my strength and hope is gone,
Your love is like a rock that I am standing on…” (1)
(1) Inspirational lyrics: Third Day : “Your Love Is Like A River”
@ Nick Bulbeck:
And nowhere does it say anything about what independent authority he has placed himself under to ensure any of these things…how can his apology possibly be believed when he seems to continually exempt himself from the kind of authority & scrutiny he insists on for others? His current accountability structure has not prevented him from hurting many people…what is he going to do to ensure he is not allowed to do this again?
“what is he going to do to ensure he is not allowed to do this again?”
The only thing I would trust at this point is removal from ministry. He needs to go be a regular Joe somewhere — but I think everyone should be a regular Joe or Jane 😉
You’re absolutely hilarious. Considering Mr. Ortlund didn’t even have the courage to allow responses to his blog post, I rather doubt he’d have the courage to “meet anyone in the eye”.
Do you have any statistics (published or provided by Mars Hill) that shows the breakdown of the congregation between men and women and by age groups? I would be amazed that young men in the 18-25 age group have the wherewithal to support a church the size of Mars Hill.
Bizarre ‘ Religious’ Bobblehead(s) Revisited: “Da Marzhil/Resurgence Driven Christian ‘Church’ Consumer Market ?”
>>—> Target 18-25 year olds, get um involved, exploit them to build a church growth empire, n’ discard um when they start asking too many questions?
clip: “Church Needs Dudes”: Desiring God Interview with Mark Driscoll on church planting and the need for young, innovative men…
And none call it ‘exploitation’?
Mark Driscoll: “it is an honor to serve…”
Comic relief: Marzhil Now! ” I love the smell of controversy in the morning…”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
A person with NPD, a sociopath, a psychopath can do that at will. I once met head on with one of the most abusive and manipulative pastors I’ve ever known (this was the one I’ve cited elsewhere who quoted Psalm 37:25 to support his theory that anyone who was poor was not a child of God). I was an elder in the church, we had a private meeting with another elder there to witness to have it out. The pastor told outright lies with a straight face, when I said “How can you say this, E–you’re completely lying”, he laughed like some kind of B-movie bad guy, Vincent Price or something, he sneered, mocked–an astonishing, shocking change from “Mr. Smiley Guy” at the pulpit. Afterwards, a few minutes after leaving the worst closed-door meeting I’ve experienced in my life, he approached my daughter who was washing up in the church kitchen: “How you doing, honey?” All sweetness again. It’s easy if you don’t have a conscience.
… and what does that say about the administration for never firing him, or, if he owned the hospital, his buddies, for continually uplifting him as a decent surgeon?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
That’s good stuff. They get what they want, so they tell him whatever he wants to hear, like the sycophants who’ve hung around other celebrities–Elvis, Mike Tyson, Michael Jackson come to mind–so they can get a bit of the reflected shine. Of course, they tell their man whatever they want to hear and do nothing to check them, because ultimately perhaps most are all about themselves every bit as much as the narcissistic abuser they serve.
… and funny how none of his fan-boys notice his non-apology.
I’ve said it before but it’s worth saying again, all of these high-falutin preachers would do well to take a season or two and live like the Joes and Janes on the pew. And that includes living on the average salary of a family, going to a regular job, driving a not-new car and trying to budget for the necessities for a family. Then maybe these guys would understand the kind of stress their teachings put on families once they no longer have all the extra money and support and live like the hoi polloi.
But I don’t want the Park Fiscals of the world at my job. We’re too busy to put up with drama llama behavior from guys who don’t get that women in the work world have and use authority, even over men.
…argument for a week, laughter for a month, and a good jest for ever. ~Wm. Shakespeare
yes, laughter is a wonderful gift. I laugh often. However, there’s a difference between choosing deal with hard life circumstances in your own life with laughter–often quite healthy to do.
The point is, however, that laughter without remembrance of injustice is simply a hollow whistling through a dark forest.
I notice that you choose to quote Shakespeare often as your guide or justification for your comments. I don’t.
I look at the Bible and before you say I’m being self-righteous-don’t bother….I’m wrong often, but to the best of my ability I try to look there for a guide to my actions.
I look at some clear commandments about caring for the widowed and orphans, remembering those who are still in prison (be it a physical prison or the prison of emotional pain), and the command to laugh with those who laugh and weep with those who weep.
Until those who are still weeping from this entire mess have received just recompense and have their sorrow alleviated, I will refuse to laugh. Yes, these men are buffoons but their actions are all too serious to simply turn away with a guffaw..
Why Ortlund closed comments :
“….My desire is for everything on my blog to honor the Lord. I try to hold myself to that high standard, and I desire that the comment threads do the same. Most comments are of a high quality, for which I thank everyone. A few fall short, in my opinion.
My caution was confirmed as I followed Twitter yesterday. I saw people tweeting criticisms of me that were, ironically, for things I actually agree with them about. But because my post didn’t say everything that could be said, they apparently assumed that I had nothing more to say — or care about. Oh well.
So I go back to Scripture, which says that “love believes all things” (1 Corinthians 13:7). I understand that to mean, love always assumes the best, love fills in the blanks with positive assumptions. I try to keep that in mind.
Thanks again for asking. The Lord be with you.”
Ortlund: “My desire is for everything on my blog to honor the Lord. I try to hold myself to that high standard,”
I might believe that, if he hadn’t said this:
Ortlund: “His repentance just pulled the rug out from underneath all the Driscoll-haters out there. He shifted the moral burden to them. Not that that was his purpose. But it was an outcome.”
That was NOT Driscoll’s outcome. But it WAS his purpose.
Ortlund attempted to sweep things under the rug. And he didn’t want anyone pointing that out to him.
@ Molly: ,
I greave for your anguish.
You don’t havta cry alone.
Jesus can hold you widdle hand too!
(Big smiley face goes here)
you have my prayers as well.
His eyes are ever upon da sparrow.
inspiration: Third Day : “I Need A Miracle”
After seeing/hearing tim keller preach a number of times, I’m pretty certain he does not think shifting moral burden is a good thing That mindset is counter to the gospel of grace (i.e., the idea that we capital to shift moral burden) that he is a master of conveying (and I don’t mean that in a snarky way). The dichotomy between tim’s message and the message of some of the other TGC writers has been one of the sadder things for me, because I really respect tim’s preaching.
How can you suddenly switch from “angry young prophet” to “spiritual father” mode, without ever having demonstrated the qualities of a wise father? Is he an actor? I guess this announcement that he’s going to be playing a different role is as close as he gets to honesty.
Seriously, I hope he is sincere in his desire to change and get right with God, but after all these years you’d have to be some kind of chump to choose him for your leader. I don’t believe he’s qualified to be a Pastor, regardless of the size of his congregation.
It seems to be about control. He seems to want this on HIS terms. Same with CJ. They ask of others what they do not submit to themselves.
That stuck out to me, too. He didn’t even really apologize for all the terrible things he did whilst being an “angry young prophet,” nor does he seem to realize that it’s kind of arrogant to refer to yourself as a prophet unless, well, you are one.
Why not say, “When I was a young pastor, I was abrasive, unkind, quick-tempered, arrogant, misogynistic, and a terrible leader a lot of the time. I look back now and realize I was these things and that I hurt a lot of people. I thought I was being an angry prophet, but I was really just being an self-righteous ***hole. I feel terrible about this and I’m trying to change so that my words and actions — my life — will better reflect God’s heart for his people.”
The problem is two-fold:
1) we’re not living in times in which Dee and Deb can challenge Roy Ortlund or Mark Driscoll to a duel or an eye-staring contest. It’s now acceptable for people to air grievances in writing rather than duking it out in person.
Come to think of it, the Apostle Paul actually wrote a lot of critical letters, as I recall, as opposed to confronting people in person. I guess he didn’t understand how true Christians should interact either.
Plus there’s that pesky secular legal system to consider, respecting stalking and harassment.
Driscoll tells a story, that no one can seem to verify, about how he needs security because someone attacked him on stage with a machete. Perhaps that’s an invented rationale for keeping folks who don’t like him at a distance. You never know when someone who doesn’t like your latest book might stare you in the eye or want to talk to you.
Thus, I think he would be quick to accuse a critic, who approached him directly, of harassment and stalking. Ditto Ortlund.
If these guys whine if someone writes a “mean” blog post about them can you imagine what being looked in eye would do to their fragile egos? You can accuse them of many things but interacting with critics maturely, in any venue, is not one of them.
2) we’re not dealing with men who want to get in the trenches with “ordinary” people. They just want trolls to fill in for them so they can go back to making big bucks with their quote unquote ministries.
They’re laughing all way to the bank, my friend.
@ chuck: Kind of like you’re criticizing two women you’ve never met. 😉
“It does seem that the church is wising up to the dangers of the 21st century and returning to biblical relationships. It will mean the end of these kinds of blogs and men like you who I fear are best understood through a careful reading of 2 Peter.”
Is this the same Peter that Paul criticized in writing, not in person, for his objections to evangelizing to non-Jews? Does your understanding of Biblical relationships stem from the Bible, my friend, or books written by the men you’re representing, in the 21st C.?
“It does seem that the church is wising up to the dangers of the 21st century and returning to biblical relationships.
Maybe you’re right. Personally, I think that the type of men you bravely represent here will probably just end up in prison for tax fraud as it’s getting harder and harder to pretend that they run religious non-profit organizations.
“A More Proper & Befitting Answer, Perhaps?”
“a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory…”
TedS : “No offense, Sopwith, but this no longer is a laughing matter.”
Sopy: “I understand this MD debacle has bruised you sensibilities…others as well. Indeed this is very troubling. (sadface)
TedS : “There are many victims that were thrown under the wheels of Driscoll’s bus…”
Sopy: Yes. TWW and other blogs, have thankfully pursued a public awareness campaign to warn the young, the unsuspecting, the overt trusting, that there is a clear an present biblical danger concerning this Washington State registered religious 501(c)3 non-profit called Mars Hill.
Sopy: Again, Yes. TWW has with great effort, been proactive in warning it’s readers, with credible insider testimony concerning MD’s & MH documented abuses, for some time now:
Thank-you for your ‘valued’ input.
Bonus: Third Day : “Kicking and Screaming”
From your mouth to God’s ears. As a taxpayer, I get annoyed that I have to pay more taxes to make up for the various tax shenanigans of the religious elite.
A question comes to mind. In his letter. Fiscal says he’s been having meetings in private for the past year to learn from, apologize to, and reconcile with people. Has any one of those people come forward? If not, why not? The meetings may have been in private, but many of the sins were very public. Did he make them all sign NDA’s prior to learning, apologizing, and reconciling?
@ Dave A A:
This is a good point.
If indeed he has sinned against people in private, then to my mind those reconciliations should be in private. There is no need gratuitously to publicise repented sin – indeed, I think the Biblescriptures are clear that we shouldn’t – and, by the same token, I think they are equally clear that we should not make gratuitously public displays of repentance. Put another way, it would be wrong to rub Fiscal’s nose in a past sin, and wrong for him to get wide public credit for narrow private repentance.
But any reconciliation between Petrie and Meyer would have to be at least as wide as the Mars Hill congregation, since he accused them before the congregation and, via the internet posting of that presentation, an indeterminate percentage of the english-speaking world. For that matter, anyone in the congregation who joined Fiscal in making that accusation – who shunned the Petrie’s and the Meyer’s outwardly and/or judged them inwardly – is complicit in the same sin and they all need to seek forgiveness.
Proverbial Marzhil Passenger, “Religious Insanity’s Voice Hath Spoken?”
“I can sympathize with someone’s pathology, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I have to entertain it.” ~ Sopwith
♩ ♫ “I am a Marzhil passenger, I stay under glass,
I look through my window so bright,
I see da MerkyD come out tonight,
I hear his strange and hollow words,
He rakes over da church’s ripped backsides,
And everything looks good tonight…Singing, la la la la la ” (1)
There is a proverbial religious bus trip that seems right to an individual , but in the end it travels upon a road that leads to the death of the soul.
…when this Marzhil bus hits da ditch, be some warez else.
Comic relief: Clip: “The Passenger”
(1) (Lyrics reflect parody adaptation) “The Passenger”: Alison Mosshart ; (cover)
-Lyrics Songwriter(s): Iggy Pop, Ricky Gardner, Ricky Gardiner; © Bug Music, EMI Music Publishing; All rights Reserved. [US Title 17 infringement unintended.]
They’ll order their Armorbearers to Beat You Up.
“Tomorrow Never Knows?” (1)
Lõõks like MerkyD is good ta go fer anodder year, huh?
(1) Comic relief: “Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream?”
Dave A A wrote:
“To learn from…”?
Search the internet. Go ahead. Find a single one of these supposed persons he has “learned from” or apologized to, or reconciled with. Can you find or name even one? Or is it all just a big lie?
I often wonder if these guys consider lying a sin.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This is a really major point– and not addressed at all in Fiscal’s letter. Maybe he’ll preach a sermon or two. If he wants to be a fatherly leader, he should lead in corporate, Hill-wide repentance and confession. As Ezra prayed, “O my God, I am ashamed and embarrassed to lift up my face to You, my God, for our iniquities have risen above our heads and our guilt has grown even to the heavens. Since the days of our fathers to this day we have been in great guilt, and on account of our iniquities we, our kings and our priests have been given into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity and to plunder and to open shame, as it is this day”
Maybe a big lie with a little truth in it. I’m guessing he’s met with some current Martian leaders (in his employ), who can’t talk publicly about the meetings. Or some former employees still bound by NDA’S. He continues, “
Oops- He continues, “Many of those meetings were among the most encouraging moments in my time at our church. Sadly, not all of those relationships are yet mended, but I am praying that God is gracious to get us to that place of grace. Now that others have come forward, my desire is to have similar meetings with those who are willing.”
The “at our church” phrase indicates he may only have met with some current Martians. When he’s sad that not all relationships are mended, does he mean he’s apologized and folks haven’t forgiven him? Or that he hasn’t gotten around to those yet? What would that place of grace look like? “Now that others have come forward” I assume means former elders Kraft and (forgot the name). Fiscal certainly had the chance last week to shoot Kraft an email of apology, reconciliation, relationship mending, and willingness to learn. And Kraft would certainly have posted this on his blog………. I think– commenters are begging Kraft to clarify his accusations and his response to Fiscal’s letter, and — nothing yet. Many others like him, as well. “My desire is to have similar meetings with those who are willing” — what kind of meetings? Over a cup of coffee with a friend or two of the willing person there? Or in Park’s office with his “king” and “priest” there and no recording allowed? In that case, it may look like “those” are not “willing”.
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:
God can speak through the IRS at times. 😉 This is the form for reporting suspected tax fraud for a tax exempt organization.
The IRS makes clear that you can submit the form anonymously and do not need to have documentation proving that fraud occurred. In most cases, no one can acquire that information without a court order.
If you want the IRS to acknowledge receipt of your letter, you do need to give them your name and address. They won’t disclose whether they’re acting on what you’ve sent them but almost certainly won’t do an investigation until they get enough complaints about an organization.
I’ve submitted forms to the IRS before and think the psychological boost it gives you is worth the cost of a stamp. 😉
And later claim you had a machete. 😉 @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Janet Mefferd comes back swinging and gets in the last word.
You said exactly what I believe from all I know of Scripture. I don’t understand why more Acts 29 guys aren’t saying it, but I think there are a lot of politics in play. @ Marsha:
@ Dave A A:
I found a 2007 “apology?” in 2012 and had some things to say in response. Much to long to paste here. Haven’t really seen anything different in a good way happening yet. Link: http://britgirlusaborn.blogspot.com/2012/08/if-you-tolerate-this-then-your-children.html?m=1
I felt that too. She’s indoctrinated. This is not what “winning without words” looks like. Submission and subservience are not the same thing. Loving someone includes telling them the truth if they are blind. Women are not the only ones who need feedback to grow, and marriage should be a safe place for both parties to grow. I felt that about her reactions in Joanna Petry’s account too. Women have been taught this and hoping to do right before God they’ve denied their God-given humanity. Glad someone else sees it. Praying for her.
It would be interesting to see Driscoll’s repentance speeches lined up by date, numbered, with a description of the basic content, next to a brief description of his follow-through.
I enjoyed your analysis of the 2007 letter (I don’t think I can really describe it as repentance given how much of it is excuses and blame against others), and the reference in the title.
Really good commentary! I must confess I “skimmed” Driscoll’s piece a bit. Will try again later….