"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven"
After serving thirty-one years in pastoral ministry at Covenant Life Church (CLC), Grant Layman, brother of Carolyn Mahaney, will step down from his post effective at the end of March. Last year he took a three-month sabbatical to contemplate his future, and then in December he made the decision to end his long career at CLC.
The news was communicated to the congregation on February 23 at a members meeting. Covenant Life Church has posted a Members Meeting Recap on its website. At the 6:32 mark, Joshua Harris makes the following remarks:
But about a year ago Grant raised the question again, and I believe the Holy Spirit helped me to see that the most important thing that I could do was just to hear what God was speaking to him and listen. Grant talked about feeling weary. He talked about how he had a lot of pastor miles on him. He talked about how the last few years in particular had been a great strain on him personally. He talked about how much he loved Covenant Life Church. What I told Grant is that I would support whatever he believed the Lord was calling him to do. Part of the reason I wanted Grant to have a sabbatical last year was so that he could get rest and get perspective on this important question. I wanted him to be able to seek God about his future with Karin and the family. And so I'm grateful, even though it's difficult, I'm grateful that God has made it clear for Grant and Karin that now is the right time for them to make this transition.
Grant Layman addressed the congregation during the meeting and was almost brought to tears several times. Perhaps it is now difficult for him to remember the happier times at Covenant Life Church.
It was almost a decade ago that Grant made the following introductions at a CLC celebration honoring C.J. Mahaney. It was during this time that the baton was passed from Mahaney to Harris, with C.J. transitioning to devote all of his attention to Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Grant Layman Introduces Bob Kauflin and Kenneth Maresco
Grant Layman Introduces Carolyn Mahaney & Josh Harris
The Laymans plan to remain in Gaithersburg and continue worshipping at Covenant Life Church. Grant plans to transition into the business world by establishing a painting franchise.
During the family meeting, Josh Harris explained that Braden Greer will be planting a new church in South Carolina, which will not be directly affiliated with Covenant Life Church. Toward the end of the meeting, Harris explains that CLC is scaling back and will not be replacing either of these pastors.
Earlier today Todd Wilhelm, who lives in Dubai and blogs at 'Thou Art the Man' chimed in about this recent development. In his post Grant Layman Leaves the Ministry…, he addresses the upcoming trial regarding Nate Morales. Todd writes:
Nate Morales, one of the perps in the SGM sexual abuse case, currently is in jail awaiting a criminal trial scheduled for May. This trial threatens to blow the lid off of the SGM cover-up and the individuals taken down as a result could be significant…
Toward the end of his post, Todd Wilhelm includes some interesting information from Brent Detwiler's website regarding Nate Morales and Grant Layman. Of particular note is the following:
Complaint 39
39. This ongoing conspiracy is evidenced by, among other things, Defendant Layman’s statements made to police in connection with their investigation of Morales.
Observations
Grant Layman made misleading and false statements to detectives during their three year investigation. On January 7, 2010, he told detectives that Robin Boisvert was the “lead” pastor in the Morales matter and he (i.e., Layman) only had “vague recollections” regarding Samuel Bates.
Two weeks later, detectives followed up with Robin Boisvert. He provided conflicting testimony and “denied being the ‘lead’ pastor in the matter and advised [said] Grant Layman was lead pastor.” Boisvert also said he “accompanied Grant Layman” in the early 1990’s “to confront Nate Morales, who neither denied nor confessed. He was accused of abusing teenage boys. The meeting took place in a park in the Flower Valley subdivision.” Boisvert’s recollections were not the least bit vague.
Layman also told Detectives he “had no direct recollection” of a meeting he had with Samuel Bates’ father in 2010. This meeting was also attended by Robin Boisvert. Boisvert again provided conflicting testimony. He told detectives he “recalled the meeting and the fact that Mr. Layman was present.” Much more could be said.
With the May trial fast approaching, you may want to re-visit this information.
We will continue to monitor the situation and keep you informed of any developments. Please join us in praying that the truth will be revealed.
Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 30:1-31:26 1 Timothy 2:1-15 Psalm 87:1-7 Proverbs 25:18-19
It’s about time!
There are several allegations in the Sovereign Grace Ministries child sexual abuse cover-up lawsuit that mention Grant. Here are two summaries (by paragraph number) that mention different [alleged] incidents.
#36-38
Youth ministry leader Nate Morales molested several boys. During one youth group discussion about being “pure,” [the teenage boy who had been abused] then openly referred to Morales’ ongoing molestation of boys, stating words to the effect, “yeah, Nate got me too.” This discussion group was headed up by a youth leader…. …[who] cautioned him and the other boys against talking about the facts. [The youth leader] reported it to Grant Layman, one of the defendants. He and other defendants allegedly conspired to cover it up.
#157 (Referring to a different episode)
Rather than report the ongoing abuse to secular authorities or take any steps to stop the abuse, Defendants informed the father that his children had reported the abuse. This led to further abuse by the father. In exchange for the conspiracy of silence, the abusive father paid to send Defendants Mahaney, Ricucci, and Layman and their families on vacation to the Kiawah Islands, South Carolina.
Good job Deebs!! Third!!!!! 😉
I’ve been to Kiawah. It’s gorgeous. It’s also very expensive!
Certainly praying the truth will come out in the upcoming trial. It annoys / angers me, when I read these men, specifically Layman, are given sabbaticals……..what? Gee whizz, smells of pandering to the ever so burdensome "needs " of beleaguered pastors. Do victims of abuse ever get a sabbatical, time off from their wounds? Expenses paid while they ponder where the Holy Spirit is leading them? Really hoping that May brings justice to the victims. The cover up of abuse will be exposed and the guilty face the consequences of their actions.
Very troubling to me is the obvious disconnect Joshua Harris has between the sexual abuse victims and those on the CLC staff who enabled the abusers, doing nothing to protect children. Clearly Grant Layman has been one of the major enablers. To heap praise on the man, lauding his integrity and telling everyone how much you love the guy, followed by two standing ovations, is insane. Harris should have demanded Layman's resignation as soon as his involvement became known. Instead he gets a three months paid vacation and a hero's send off! If there are any mature Christians with a modicum of common sense left in the congregation, they need to call for the resignation off all 17 remaining pastors of CLC who agreed to this treatment of Layman. This is a great example of why you need elders who are not paid staff members. CLC still has yet to take this action. Why the lengthy delay between the announcement that they were going to do this and the actual implementation? In this video Harris says they will be installed in September. I wonder how many positions there will be. I would think the number of staff who are elders should be equal to the number of lay elders.
Noticed this on the CLC blog:
Dear Church,
We’re writing to update you on a new development in the legal process that began unfolding last fall. The lawsuit that was filed in October has been amended. It now names our church and our school as defendants. In addition it alleges sexual abuse by an unnamed “pastor and teacher” and “children’s ministry worker” (though it does not make clear what institution these persons are connected with nor when the events allegedly occurred).
We’re currently working with legal counsel to investigate these allegations. But our counsel has confirmed with counsel for the Plaintiffs that these unnamed persons are not current employees of the school or pastors at the church.
http://www.covlife.org/blog/category/pastors
Thanks for that interesting information Victorious.
I should have noted that the article is entitled “Update on Amended Lawsuit” and dated January 16 2013 at 4:05 pm
When I posted it, I was thinking it was 2014.
Is “alleged” still in play for CLC or have they now been convicted?
@ TW:
And in the midst of it all, Joshua Harris admitted to being sexually abused as a child.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/parse/2013/may/friday-five-interview-joshua-harris.html?paging=off
Shaved head? Check.
Imitates CJ’s cadence when speaking? Check.
Vague language about why he is taking an action? Check.
He fits the SGM leader’s checklist!
TW wrote:
So this afternoon I open up TWW and see the headline, “Grant Layman TO Step Down as Pastor at Covenant Life Church.”
And I’m thinking – TO step down? As in, the future tense?
As in – why on Earth was this guy STILL THERE??!! Why was he not on administrative leave when named as a defendent, or “quietly let go to spend time with his family?”
Silly me, with all my delusions of DOING THE RIGHT THING, AT LONG LAST. Fuggedaboudit.
@ TW:
I believe that SGM is a bit nervous about the Nate Morales trial coming up. Grant Layman's testimony may be prominent. I find it somewhat interesting that Grant stepped down almost immediately before the trial. Why not last year. Did he suddenly receive a calling to paint whatever?
It is important to realize that he is the brother-in-law of Mahaney.
Speculation: If Layman did know about Morales and met with him in the 1990s along with Robin Boisvert, as is alleged, do you think such a meeting would not come up around Sunday dinner with the family?
Joel wrote:
………………………………..
For sure.
“Grant talked about feeling weary. He talked about how he had a lot of pastor miles on him.”
It really just deeply struck me, re-reading TW’s post, about the 1997 (or thereabouts) buy-your-silence-and-friendship vacay to Kiawah Island, as noted in the lawsuit regarding plaintiff Grace Goe.
If, like me, it’s been a while since you read Grace Goe’s portion of the lawsuit, I’d gently suggest you do it again.
Then let the waves of nausea wash over you thinking about what kind of person, after he heard the serious allegations of criminal activity from both the housekeeper and the victim, ignored them, didn’t call law enforcement, and THEN accepted an all-expenses paid vacation at a swank resort from the subject of the criminal allegations.
Someone’s conscience sounds “weary”, and not due to “pastor miles.”
dee wrote:
🙂
@ Lin:
“…a sabbatical… Expenses paid while they ponder where the Holy Spirit is leading them”
+++++++++++++++++++
sigh…. alright, is there a professional Christian in the house who can explain this one?
I promise you… while “a sabbatical” is met with sweet smiles from church people, underneath it all is “yeah, right”.
dee wrote:
A double coat of ministerial whitewash.
@ elastigirl:
I am a Christian, and I am a professional, but not a professional Christian (I don’t really think anyone should claim that title). But I think the idea of a sabbatical for a pastor is a reasonable idea, if and only if, it is built into the contract from the beginning of the relationship. And only if there is a very limited vacation time, not more than four weeks a year, and limited conference trips (one or two year, not more than a week each). And the idea of a sabbatical is once every seven years, a semester off.
I have been a personnel chairman of a church, and these are reasonable things for a pastor, but should be limited and reflect his total time commitment and work load as a full-time (40 worker hours, plus 20 hours as a committed Christian would be expected to spend involved in church) employee and member of the church.
I don’t disagree with you Attorney dude, but two points I have. First, all bets are off when a pastor is implicated to the degree Grant Layman was in this sexual abuse scandal. I am not just talking some lone accusation where the guy may or may not be guilty. This is way beyond that. The only thing Joshua Harris should have been offering Layman was an extended leave without pay, perhaps even “just leave.” As in go away, you are fired. My second point is I, as a member of the laity would feel much more comfortable having some laity overseeing matters of pastors salary and benefits. As “An Attorney” mentioned, he was chairman of a church. I would be much more trusting having somebody like this overseeing things. The way SGM has, and continues to do business allows no input from laity. The staff decides what the staff gets paid and what their benefits are and who gets hired and fired. Reminds me a lot of charlatans like Furtick having other rich charlatan “pastors” determining his pay and benefits package. Nice gig if you can get it, but don’t expect my tithes to be directed your way.
An Attorney wrote:
@ Lin:About sabbaticals: I second it–what about the victims? Also, what other jobs, and there are a huge number of high stress jobs out there–get 3, 6 or 12 month sabbaticals? Pastors today are a pampered bunch of people. They want big buildings, nice offices, plenty of vacation (and/or study time), and then sabbaticals. What is going on?
If the sabbatical is related to a possible voluntary or involuntary termination, then whether the employee should be paid and have benefits during the sabbatical (other than COBRA), depends on whether it is the employer or employee seeking the termination and sabbatical. If it is the employer, and there is no criminal charge pending against the employee, then generally a sabbatical would be paid, but brief, 2-3 months. If it is the employee, then the employee should only receive any accumulated sick leave or vacation leave pay and benefits, and not pay over a sabbatical.
@ An Attorney:Why sabbaticals? Every seven years? Wasn’t that part of the ceremonial law? Where do you hear that from Paul’s exhortation to Timothy, etc.? In addition to vacation? And in addition to ‘study leave’? You must be kidding. Truck drivers work harder and are away longer from their families than pastors. Pul-lease.
@ Godith:
I believe in congregational governance. The members of the congregation should make decisions in business sessions, with a moderator elected by the congregation. Committees selected by the congregation should oversee personnel, budgets, facilities, etc. And the paid staff should not participate in those committees or in the business meetings, and definitely not in determining who is nominated to be on committees, unless the committee asks them to attend to provide answers to committee questions.
Almost every church has lay people who are competent to see to the business affairs of the church and operate the small democracy that a church should be — every member being a priest, and every decision made with a prayerful attitude and, hopefully, led by the Holy Spirit. It can work, and it beats the heck out of the CEO pastor model, in which only one person is really a priest and the rest are sheep.
@ Godith:
I did not mention “study leave”. A sabbatical would be for study, so no other leave for “study” should be provided. Go back to my comment about the time commitment a pastor should have. 40 paid hours and 20 unpaid hours, comparable to what a dedicated layperson would spend on church affairs, meetings, etc.
The word sabbatical comes from the same root as sabbath, and reflects a seven year (rather than day) cycle. And the idea is a bit more extended time to devote to study, reflection, and refreshment. I would be that in most SGM churches, few staff spend 60 hours a week, take less than four weeks vacation and personal leave, and go to fewer than two off-site conferences a year.
@ An Attorney:Not to belabor the point (or I’ll need a sabbatical),but no matter how the determination to have sabbaticals is made,I still ask Why? Lots of workers can benefit from extended time to study, reflect and be refreshed. (I assume that all pastors are given vacations.) I understand where the word “sabbatical” comes from, which is why I mentioned the Old Testament. This concept has become ingrained into our soft society that it is unquestioned and almost unquestionable.Reading stories of missionaries of the 18th and 19th centuries puts our current crop of pastor and missionaries in a completely different light. Whether it is done by congregational church goverment, Presbyterian, or Episcopalian, I am opposed to the concept of sabbaticals. And if there is a quetion of criminal behavior, it is called “administrative leave” and may or may not be paid.
There are so many people who don’t get sabbaticals today. I get a laugh… I remember years ago someone told me that some people become missionaries or pastors because they are lazy. They develop a sense of entitlement. I’m just wondering what this stepping down will mean? What role is being played? Is Grant stepping down at his own will or is he pressured? I don’t know how close “Der Humble One” is to Grant but knowing the fact I wonder if he pulled some family strings. I could see CJ Mahaney blackmailing a relative.
I wonder what other pastors are going to get ensnared in all this. Who else is going to be entangled? What are the possible scenarios for CLC in this Nate Morales case? What other pastors are going to be ensnared? Just to throw this out there…do any of you believe the Nate Morales case can affect any other SGM/ former SG churches that broke away? And what would a guilty verdict for Morales mean for CJ Mahaney? And Mark Dever, Al Mohler, etc…
@ Seneca “j” Griggs:
What in the world are you talking about? He is stepping down to be a painter. Do we need to use alleged for that as well? Dee, who allegedly ate lunch, is allegedly writing this comment.
This is damage control. Pure damage control.
Ken wrote:
This is good. 🙂
Godith wrote:
…………………..
Sabattical comes across as holy, pure, spiritual….above the ho – hum affairs of the mundane employed.
Laity, the pew sitter (who fill the collrction plates) when facing the perils of life are entitled to : quitting (with no severance pay), taking their paid vacations, file for emergency medical/family status, beg for mercy from the boss, suck it up and hope for a miracle, etc.
Sabbaticals have become all to common a way of life for the big wig pastor or the CEO, COO, of large Christian organizations.
Has anyone had experience using the Gospel Story Bible curriculum, which was written by Marty Machowski of SGM? It is a Sunday School program that many churches use for Kid’s Ministries. I guess it was developed at CLC. Do you have any objections to it, besides the unfavorable associations? Could you provide me any specific examples of why you would not recommend it for children? There aren’t any coloring pages of CJ Mahaney “casting vision”, right? 😉
To answer your question, Seneca, there’s no question to me that Grant Layman and at least one other prominent CLC Pastor broke the law by not reporting either allegations that Morales was molesting kids OR the multiple confessions he made to CLC pastors to that effect, to the police, as required by law in Maryland.
There’s also no doubt that Harris and his Pastoral team know this because more than a year ago Grant Layman and Robin Boisvert (another prominent CLC Pastor) told two reputable media sources that they handled the who Morales sexual abuse situation “in house,” as if that’s an option Churches have. Would they feel entitled to handle murder “in house,” too? Perhaps I don’t want to know the answer to that question.
A Facebook comment on Brent Detwiler’s blog pointed me to these two articles in which Grant Layman and Robin Boisvert casually discuss their decisions not to report many complaints from kids and their parents, that Morales was molesting kids, to the police.
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/02/04/md-church-member-accused-of-molestation-in-1980s/
http://washingtonexaminer.com/former-christian-school-teacher-accused-of-molesting-boys/article/2520547
The person who referenced the links above also says there’s a public document available at Montgomery County MD’s Circuit Court in which “CLC Representatives” clearly tell the police/other government authorities, to whom they cannot lie without risking jail time for perjury/obstruction of justice, that they were aware of allegations against Morales and his confessions regarding the things he’s accused of for many years.
Instead of reporting him to the police, they sent him to a Christian Camp in Michigan for a year and simply allowed him to come back to CLC and hang out with kids after that.
The person on Brent’s Facebook page indicated that they were not posting this document, even though it’s a matter public record, due to requests from some of the victims that it not be publicly posted but it can viewed by anyone requesting Morales’ file at Circuit Court.
So yes, it sounds like there really is proof that the CLC Pastors are covering up abuse and continuing to endanger kids by not doing anything to protect them from the types of troubled and possibly dangerous individuals that CLC has been attracting for decades due to its “in-house” way of addressing pedophilia.
Lastly, the CLC Pastors are not arguing that they didn’t obstruct justice or cover up abuse. They’re claiming that the First Amendment and a $25 ordination certificate give them the right to behave that way.
They don’t appear to using the word “alleged” to defend themselves. They’re just paying lawyers to help them weasel out of their reprehensible conduct on technicalities, in my alleged viewpoint. 🙂
dee wrote:
Reading the comments; it appears that Grant has already been convicted of cover-up. I’m thinking he hasn’t been convicted of anything yet. I still function under “innocent until proven guilty.”
dee wrote:
You bet they’re nervous. As nervous as the senior officer corps. of the Wehrmacht was when the Eastern front began to collapse.
Rafiki wrote:
I’ve tried to find the back info on the Grace Coe story that you’ve mentionned–does anyone know where I could find the information on this?
I’m a new reader to TWW. Thanks
Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:
I bet you think OJ Simpson is not guilty and that Casey Anthony is not guilty because the court “said so.” I bet you have no problem with a chronic pedophile who has served his time moving next door to some kids because, after all, he has paid his debt.
C’mon Seneca-you routinely support authoritarian pastors because that is your mindset. You hide behind catch phrases to allow you to promote your brand of authority based churches with you as one of the guys ‘in authority.” My guess is that you have been in a leadership position in a church and that you rather enjoyed offering biblical judgments on the lowly.
You have shown little compassion for the victims. You do know that there are victims in this, not alleged victims right? Yet I have not heard you offer up any in the way of compassion to them. Why? I don’t know. But I bet you know. Please try just a little bit harder. Somewhere, buried inside the ice, there is a heart. Try to find it before it is too late.
@ molly245:
Here is a link to the post on the lawsuit. Grace Coe is mentioned in it so scroll down.
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2013/1/14/class-action-lawsuit-naming-sovereign-grace-ministries-is-ex.html
Ken wrote:
I need a warning before reading a coffee spitter! Too funny, and too true.
dee wrote:
Have been or still is.
Grant was the first case of nepotism within a group that would eventually be called Sovereign Grace MInistries. He was put on staff and eventually became a pastor due to his being C.J. Mahaney’s brother in law. I am not aware of any particular talent or qualification that caused him to be hired other than being related to C.J. and presumably placed to have “family” there watching C.J.’s back.
It is good that Grant chose to not follow C.J. Mahaney as other related staff did going with Mahaney to Kentucky. On the other hand sad if Grant chose to hide actions of Nathaniel Morales. It is sad if additional cases of molestation by Morales could have been prevented if Grant and other CLC Leaders reported Morales. Assuming Grant has a conscience, maybe Grant’s alleged non reporting is what caused the “pastor miles” on Grant?
Joel wrote:
He is conformed to the image of his God.
dee wrote:
And in another state, i.e. Interstate Flight to Avoid Prosecution?
(Usually the cover story is “God Led Me to Plant a Church (in another state)”.)
An Attorney wrote:
And these guys have a hair up their a$$ about Catholics over priestcraft & clericalism? (“Be ye not called ‘Father’…”) Looks like a case of “The Universe Cannot Have Two Centers.”
In reading these comments, the awful reality of this situation struck me. First, I was acquainted with Nate Morales way back when, and the abuse is so sad. Just awful for the victims, and awful that he did it. And Grant actually was a nice person. Horrible that a bad decision can lead to such destruction in lots of lives.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
………………..
😉
@ Former CLC'er: What bugs me more than anything is CJ removing himself from CLC and not being in the vicinity when all this is going on. Grant has much to answer for, but I can tell you that Grant most likely didn't make one move without the input, direction, and sign off from CJ. And, yet again, CJ will be off speaking at conferences while another one of his yes men is resigning, retiring, being fired, or being replaced . . . this one going off to paint. And the alleged victims get to wait for justice . . .
Janey wrote:
I hope someone will correct this in the actual lawsuit stuff — I’ve known of technicalities like this that got lawsuits dismissed. There is ONE Kiawah Island, in South Carolina.
Couldn’t help but notice Josh’s use of the word (at least twice, I think) ‘grateful’, which has become one of those words that SGM-ese has ruined for me. Somewhere along the way, they stopped being thankful and started being grateful, which just grates on my nerves.
Over 20 years ago, it was announced that our SGM pastor was going on sabbatical — I believe for 3 months, if memory serves me. (What, did I just write SERVES??) This was before internet and cellphones. We were told not to contact him or his family during this time. They left town, and the church got along fine without them. We were also told that this was not unusual; that PDI leadership believed it was important for a guy to take a sabbatical every few years to re-charge his batteries.
Well, apparently, leadership didn’t believe that for long, because the guy never, ever took another sabbatical. Later, I was told that the sabbatical occurred because he was in hot water. I have no idea why, because if ever there was a company man, he’s it. After that, anytime I heard the word sabbatical used in a PDI/SGM context, I figured it meant trouble.
dee wrote:
Thank you Dee for your quick response. You guys are doing fantastic and faithful reporting and researching–I’m glad you have the conviction and determination to persevere!
I never read the details on the lawsuit. This is horrendous. To talk about “pastor miles” on someone who contributed to a cover-up is completely wacko. I simply cannot fathom the cover-ups, Newspeak, and outright lying that goes on in the ministry these days.Lord, give us grace (and G.R.A.C.E.).
@ Lin:
Lin,
I totally love your comment. Well, well said.
Seneca wrote:
Even if Layman hasn’t been convicted yet, the accusations against him are serious enough that CLC should have fired him or put him on administrative leave months ago, instead of merely putting him out to pasture only now. Allowing him to continue leading and exercising “authority”, while under allegations like these, is a slap in the face to Morales’ victims.
Even most businesses and corporations understand that putting an executive on leave, with no authority and limited benefits, is the minimum response in this situation. If Harris and the rest at CLC don’t understand that, their ignorance is stupefying.
Bridget wrote:
Or, just perhaps, going off to jail…
@ Serving Kids in Japan:
Just think….whatever happens in the prison shower has been foreordained by God. He should just submit and praise the Lord for his sovereignty!! Isn’t Hyper Calvinism fun..I can’t have as much fun discussing other parts of Christianity. :-p
I don’t know Mr. Layman or even the church mentioned in this post, though I have seen it referenced before.
I understand that a former employee of the church, Mr. Morales, is being put on trial for sexual assault.
I do not practice criminal law, but from the way most of those cases go, what Mr. Layman did nor did not do, or what he may have said or did not say to or about Mr. Morales, may not be relevant to the issue of whether Mr. Morales molested children.
I would be surprised if Mr. Morales testifies in his trial.
I suspect that most of the testimony will be from the victims, people who were witnesses to the abuse and perhaps those whom the victims told about the abuse contemporaneously(but only for the purpose of rebutting the suggestion that the reports are a recent fabrication.)
If Mr. Morales made admissions to Mr. Layman or others about abuse, that would come in as an admission by a party. But what Mr. Layman did with that information, what he told Mr. Morales or required Mr. Morales to do, doesn’t help a jury make a decision about whether Mr. Morales committed a crime.
I am just not certain that this criminal trial is going to produce a lot of information related to cover ups or failure to report by the church or its pastors.
@Bridget – very true. And leaving his brother-in-law to take the fall. People I know who are still in CLC are P.O.’d at C.J. for leaving.
@ Seneca “j” Griggs:
“I still function under “innocent until proven guilty.””
Really? Aren’t you a total depravity guy?
@ Godith:
I think the sabbatical idea comes from academia, where it is common for professors to take a period of time to deepen their knowledge. It’s not a bad thing overall IMO. When you are teaching week in and week out, it is helpful to be able to break from your normal resources and learn something new to bring to your congregants. Of course, this is IF the congregation can afford to hire a substitute and also IF you are actually doing your own research for your sermons and not contracting it out as Mark Driscoll (allegedly) does. I don’t doubt that it is sometimes “grant”ed incorrectly (intentionally punny) but I don’t think that means it is across-the-board a bad idea.
Deebs –
In reference to the new banner above – are those adult Christian ‘boys’ playing games with blogs? I wonder what adult Christian boy leader discipled them?
In other news, a man has been found safe and well (apart from a lot of midge bites) after getting lost in his own back garden.
The story was reported on Darwin’s NT News website. Comments have, I gather, been less than sympathetic.
Where is the TWW version of Carolyn Mahaney? Perhaps she can share some “girl talk” with us about that fun family vacation at Kiawah.
Does the Kiawah vacay count toward “pastor miles” or not? Are “pastor miles” like frequent flyer miles, i.e. one gets X amount of “sabbatical” time per mile earned? Do you get to keep your “pastor miles” from swanky Together Forevah 4 the Big “G” Gospel conferences? Or do those not count?
Inquiring (and admittedly overtired and thus rambling) minds want to know. 🙂
Let me add that I would be very interested in other opinions on the topic. I have not followed this carefully.
Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
“Five kings rule o’er the Amorite,
Mighty as fear and old as night;
Swathed with unguent and gold and jewel,
Waxed they merry and fat and cruel.
…
These five Kings said one to another:
‘King unto King o’er the world is Brother’…”
— G.K.Chesterton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I haven’t commented there, for what it’s worth.
@ Nick Bulbeck:Nick, what’s a “midge” ? It’s a “mozzie” – they’re as big as helicopters – mate !
In other incorrect media reporting, here’s an inaccurate Darwin awards report:
http://darwinawards.com/stupid/stupid1999-18.html
The real and sadder story is here, and halts the scoffers in their tracks:
http://dev.video.ntnews.com.au/article/2009/02/13/33051_ntnews.html
What all the stories agree on though, is that beer was poured on him in order to revive him, a classic Northern Territory first aid remedy, on a usually uncomplaining recipient.
@ Through a glass darkly:About sabbaticals, I’m presenting my opinion and open to hearing another side, so thank you. That said, I still don’t see it. In academia there is a “publish or perish” rule (in most universities). So there is a need for travel sometimes, and research always, and writing always. Makes sense. I think that pastors should have gotten the tools for their toolboxes in college and seminary. You can’t tell me they have no time to read every week. (Some sermons I’ve heard could have been put together in 10 minutes). And as for publishing, I think Carl Trueman talked recently about the “evangelical industrial complex” where publishers link up with coalitions, networks, megachurch pastors, etc.to sell books. “Of the making of books there is no end” said the writer of Ecclesiastes. I think pastors are to tend their flock and devote themselves to prayer, preaching and care.But I appreciate your “take” on the matter! Question for Lutherans: why do I never hear of Lutheran megachurch pastors or Lutheran pastors getting into scrapes? Are they more attentive to what they are supposed to be doing, more godly in general or what?
I just noticed the new header on this blog:
“Please be aware that some people are using names of commenters on this site.
They then leave inappropriate comments on other blogs. Please let us know if you see this . It appears the boys in the northwest are playing more games.”
Surely these aren’t “Christians” behaving so surreptitiously. {gasp} Who would have imagined?
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Nice. :/
I wonder if they pass slam books around at board meetings …
Have you seen this yet?
http://www.worldmag.com/2014/03/unreal_sales_for_driscoll_s_real_marriage
@ ww:
I had heard about it, and thanks to your link, I have now read the article.
I LOVE the title: UNREAL SALES FOR DRISCOLL'S REAL MARRIAGE
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
These men hate the light and are doing all they can to keep things dark to hide the truth.
@ ww:
Agreed. Good find.
I’ve already linked it on my blog.
Besides being guilty of vast amounts of plagiarism, he’s now a fake NYT best selling author.
He paid real money to buy his way onto that list.
He should so be ashamed of himself.
But you know he won’t.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I’ve just googled myself (which hurt less than you might expect), and can find no evidence that my identity has yet been stolen thus as yet.
More disappointingly, I’ve googled various versions of Nick Bulbeck heretic and haven’t really come up with anything. Apart from Numo calling me a heretic for putting worcester sauce in spag bol.
(off topic)
Unreal sales for Driscoll’s Real Marriage
Rafiki wrote:
So nice of you to have me, and I wouldn’t be doing this unless someone had encouraged me to do so. Thank you Rafiki for asking me here today.
We are happy to control every area of people’s lives with our specially designed gospel, and your family vacation is no exception. My husband has outlined how he expects us all to think while planning for, and while on vacation.
Here are a few highlights:
Be instructed and be wise. Buy my book. If you have any questions, ask your husbands at home.
Thank you.
p.s. Charlie has always been a very $upportive friend.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
As “Daisy” (or “missdaisyflower,” and briefly as “DaisyFlower”), I only post here, Spiritual Sounding Board, Rachel Held Evans, Internet Monk, and I posted once or twice to Tim’s blog about a week ago.
I think I may have a Disqus account as “Daisy” that I’ve used to post on RHE (Rachel Held Evans’) blog a few times, and maybe one or two other sites in months past. (There are a few other “Daisys” who happen to post at RHE’s blog who are not me.)
I can’t imagine anyone wanting to pose as me on other sites, but those sites I’ve mentioned above are the only ones right off hand that I can remember that I post to as “Daisy,” or some variation of the “Daisy” name.
I also don’t make a habit of acting like a perpetual jerk on blogs, if I find myself getting angry in a debate on a thread, I tend to duck out. I prefer getting along to fighting with people. I don’t side with people who go out of their way to defend abuse.
In other words, if you see a ‘Daisy’ on some other blog saying things like – child abuse cover-ups in churches are not a big deal, John Piper is amazing and so respectful of women, I think gender complementarianism is really wonderful, I have a crush on Mark Driscoll, and I am cool with Calvinism, you know that you’re dealing with an imposter. 🙂
@ ww:
Sorry, I did not realize you had already posted that link! I just posted the same thing, but I had not yet scrolled up the page to read more of the posts.
@ Serving Kids in Japan:
“Even most businesses and corporations understand that putting an executive on leave, with no authority and limited benefits, is the minimum response in this situation. If Harris and the rest at CLC don’t understand that, their ignorance is stupefying.”
++++++++++++
perhaps i’m wrong, but my observation of Josh Harris is that his life has been quite sheltered, lived in a Christian bubble. If so, how can he not be ignorant simply from lack of experience in the real world? not sure about others at CLC — they can’t ALL be ignoramuses…. but perhaps the culture is one of extreme blind following.
Brent Detwiler has a new post.
brentdetwiler.com
@ Godith:
The organizational structure is completely different, for one thing. Long story, but would be happy to attempt to explain it (insofar as I can) if you’d like.
Also… the SGM people did NOT attend anything rese!going an actual seminary. The place is full of unqualified people who came out of some of the authoritarian excesses of the 70s-80s, and it shows.
Hi@ numo: err, resembling. Autocorrect, you’re good as far as you go, but your limits are showing…
@ Godith: fwiw, “Lutheran megachurch” seems like a contradiction in terms, but there might actually be a few out in the Midwest these days. (In a different synod from the one I belong to, though maybe I’m wrong on that, too.)
@ Nick Bulbeck: are you sure that was the ingrdient? Besides, it was your claim that Sloppy Joe sauce is = spaghetti bolognese sauce that really got my goat! 😉
@ elastigirl: extreme blind following it is, though i’ve got to say that I know people who deviate from the party line on some things. They largely keep it to themselves, though. Knowing how hard it can be to live with the kinds of internal tension that creates – and what a painful process it was for me to learn to think for myself, post getting the boot – I feel for them. And I suspect there will come a point at which they have to make some choices that they might not like, because that internal tension will become unbearable.
@ numo:
You explained that so well, numo. I’ve had to admit to myself before that if we hadn’t been “booted” from our own shepherding cult we would probably still be there. I know it sounds cray cray now, but it’s hard to see straight when you’re in the thick of it. What you described as “deviate from the party line” my BIL called “laying below the radar.” People really do this. It’s going to be very painful for people when they finally face reality. And, the more people have sacrificed of their lives for the lie the more painful it will be.
(off topic)
Janet Mefferd Show-3/5/2014
@ Carolyn Mahommey:
Why Carolyn, it’s such a true DELIGHT to see your post this a.m. 🙂
Tragically – utterly tragically I tell you – I have no husband to lead me and provide a gospelly covering for my silly little self on so many important matters in life. Sigh. Hence I seek my guidance (humbly!) from you, and of course my boyfriend Jesus.
Carolyn Mahommey wrote:
At the risk of sounding as if I have my own independent thoughts (gasp! Clutching of pearls!) – didn’t this lecture on theologically-informed discernment bore the living daylights out of you? 🙂
@ Daisy:
Thanks Daisy. I have a link to Mefferd’s interview with Warren on my blog to appear for tomorrow.
@ Carolyn Mahommey:
“We are all vulnerable to viewing the family vacation as a well-earned time away from work where we can rest and relax! But this attitude and approach to a vacation normally reveals a self-centeredness that does not please God or serve our families.”
“Vacations provide unhurried periods of time where in the shadow of the cross a husband/father realizes afresh that he is doing much better than he deserves.”
“Don’t forget about indwelling sin. Though you are going on vacation, you would be wise to remember that sin never does.”
“Ponder in advance your existing sin patterns and potential temptations on this vacation, and prepare in advance for those temptations.”
“Prepare your children for their unique temptations.”
“I hope some of the lessons I have learned over the years and the mistakes I’ve made and sins I’ve committed on vacation somehow serve you and make a difference in your vacation experience.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
is this for real????
this is the weirdest, most non-intuitive crock of “nonsense”.
i totally get the feeling it was concocted by someone who has somehow become a guru with a following but who actually knows nothing. he loves the attention and adulation, but has to continually come up with new words of wisdom to keep his followers fooled — to satisfy their hunger for the next new thing to hear him say so they can obey it. Some kind of sick symbiosis between exploiter and the exploited (there’s a word for this…it escapes me), based on self-hate. like they get some kind of jollies out of describing their wretchedness, talking about it, reminding themselves of it, and creating opportunities to deny themselves pleasure & happiness (or to twist pleasure & happiness when they escape being denied). Feeling too guilty to be able to freely enjoy them, but instead getting some kind of soothing & self-congratulations out of discomfort and misery.
this is the weirdest one of all:
“At the outset of a vacation I equip my family with theologically informed discernment.”
1 comment not approved.
@ numo:
No wonder, if it’s your goat who does the cooking!!
dee wrote:
Yes, sorry about that. Beats me how you knew about it, though, as I wasn’t on the Mac at the time!
@ elastigirl: SGM is a cult; this man is a cult leader. (All imo.)
@ Bridget:
CJ is not only not around to support Grant, but Roger is no longer there. CJ’s brother no longer attends CLC. It is interesting to me that the family doesn’t seem to be sticking together and supporting each other. For a Christian who preaches strong families, his own situation makes me wonder if he practices what he preaches.
numo wrote:
Oh yes, they exist, I used to go to one in the Upper Midwest that was part of the ELCA, but now is with a different denom, yet still Lutheran. I believe it has more members than the entire collection of SGM churches in the country. It was a fine church, great attitude, non-authoritarian (hard to imagine authoritarian Lutherans in this day and age).
CJ’s lack of education and background have been showing through the cracks for many years. If he is sincere in his relationship with Christ, I applaud that. If he sincerely wants to lead his flock, I applaud that. But as a former parishioner, his sermons always left me waiting for the punch line. @ elastigirl:
@ Rafiki:
@ elastigirl:
I’m a leader of women. That’s why you should follow me on Twitter @badgirltalk
Have a great day serving God, and in a separate sense the Savior!
http://m.christianpost.com/news/is-it-biblical-for-women-to-lead-in-politics-military-albert-mohler-answers–115847/
It concerns us that our friend Al Mohler sends such mixed messages. Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister only because the men were wimps and abdicated, as is always the case where you see women leading or taking initiative. Because we are weaker mentally and physically, and completely different from men spiritually and psychologically, women belong at home.
@ Carolyn Mahommey:
And to be “Biblical”, Mohler belongs behind a donkey or ox pulling a plow, planting his crops, growing cotton for his single thread summer wear and wool for his single thread winter wear, etc., etc. It is the same idea as he touts for women. Women are not weaker mentally. Perhaps they are more variable emotionally (which could be good and not bad) due to things like hormonal cycles. And for their weight, many women are stronger than the men around them who hold jobs that put them sitting and talking, rather than working.
And, below (SUBTERRANEAN below) is a masterpiece from the painter himself, Grant Layman (01/22/2006 @ CLC, giving it his all on TITHING, way to go CJ’s brother in law):
http://www.covlife.org/resources/2671485-Trusting_in_Gods_Provision
“Tithe and sense God’s approval.” That statement is TOTAL heresy! Wake up and smell the scriptures! Grant Layman, you are responsible for representing a different Jesus (II Cor 11: 1-4). You shall pay more than a tithe for it!
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