"Just when it appears we’ve crossed the rubicon on gender equality in the evangelical world, we realize we haven’t."
Earlier this week Rachel Held Evans via Twitter called attention to a phenomenon that we have been observing since we first began blogging – speakers at Christian conferences are predominantly MALE. The spark that ignited a firestorm on Twitter was the following Tweet by Rachel:
More than 100 speakers and only four of them are women. This is not what the church looks like.
#thenines2013
Todd Rhodes, who was involved in planning the 'Nines' conference (to which Rachel was referring), responded with this Tweet:
I think @rachelheldevans is the new Mark Driscoll.
Then Rachel followed up with this:
You don't have to be disrespectful, Todd.
To see the chatter, go over to Rachel Held Evans' Twitter feed. This exchange caught the attention of Jonathan Merritt, who decided to do some investigating…
He shared his findings in a post – Are Christian Conferences Sexist? – which begins as follows:
Just when it appears we’ve crossed the rubicon on gender equality in the evangelical world, we realize we haven’t.
The 21st century has seen massive strides on the issue. Leading theologians like N.T. Wright, Scot McKnight, Stanley Gundry, I. Howard Marshall and Gordon Fee made cases for gender equality on Biblical grounds, and they’ve were joined by prominent pastors like Bill Hybels and John Ortberg. Books by women began filling the shelves of Christian bookstores, often outselling those written by men. In 2008, hoards of evangelicals voted for a Presidential ticket that would have placed a woman in governmental authority over them in the second highest office in the land. And perhaps the greatest sign of the times is that the most popular preacher in the Southern Baptist Convention is, well, Beth Moore.
And yet, debates among some Christians about women’s roles in the church and home still rage. Organizations like the conservative Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood still wield a lot of power in American evangelicalism. Many churches will not ordain women—though they often offer women the same jobs and responsibilities as other ministers with a lesser title—and refuse to let them teach men in any capacity.
And what of the state of the multi-million dollar Christian conference industry?
This question was addressed yesterday in the Twitterverse when Rachel Held Evans, a progressive blogger and author of A Year of Biblical Womanhood, sent a tweet calling attention to the abysmal number of women speakers at The Nines, an annual online church leadership conference
See more at: http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2013/11/13/christian-conferences-sexist-nines-controversy-prompts-reflection/#sthash.VKMZSYA0.dpuf
Jonathan conducted a survey of 34 various conferences and discovered that of the 805 speakers (collectively), only 159 were female. We have discussed a number of the conferences he listed here at TWW, and none of them have female speakers. Those include:
Together for the Gospel
Desiring God National Conference
Resurgence Conference
Ligonier Conference
Resurgence Conference
There are other conferences not included in Jonathan's list with MALE ONLY speakers. He ends his post by drawing the following conclusion:
While I don’t think we can conclude that the Christian conference industry is downright sexist, we can say that most conferences have some serious work to do if they want their stage to look anything like the 21st century church.
From our perspective, these conferences have done a fantastic job of attracting those who are in Christian leadership (or who want to be); however, with the rise of the Nones and the decline of some conservative denominations such as the Southern Baptist Convention, it appears that the 'shepherds' may not be attracting large numbers of followers. Instead, the flock is being scattered for a number of important reasons, which we have also been discussing. Some of those reasons include: extreme authoritarian leadership, a wooden interpretation of Scripture, lack of congregational input, among other reasons.
Your glam blog queens predict that this trend will likely become more prevalent in the years to come as Christians run for the hills so to speak… We have heard from a number of sincere Christians who have been deeply hurt by those who are supposed to be serving them.
Soon after her Tweet (see above), Rachel wrote a post she called: On Being Divisive…
In her post, Rachel explains:
Just yesterday, when I raised some challenges about an evangelical leadership conference in which just 4 out 112 speakers were women, another writer characterized the situation as a “meltdown…from which no one has seemed to emerge more Christlike” and then issued a call for unity, complete with a prayer.
Similarly, when a group of Christians in the Asian American community recently released a letter detailing some of their concerns about common stereotypes and prejudices within the evangelical community, I saw many on social media critique this action as “divisive” and “harmful to Christian unity.” One person asked why this group had to “air the church’s dirty laundry” before a watching world?
This is a common response to those of us who speak from the margins of evangelical Christianity about issues around gender, race, and sexuality, and it’s an effective one because it appeals to something most of us value deeply: Christian unity.
It is interesting that those who want to be inclusive (by encouraging more female conference speakers) are criticized for being divisive. Go figure…
Lydia's Corner: Song of Solomon 1:1-4:16 2 Corinthians 8:16-24 Psalm 50:1-23 Proverbs 22:22-23
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I find it funny (and almost in a humourous way) to see those in power and benefitting from the status quo labeling the concerned as “divisive”. Rachel Held Evans isn’t causing problems among believers. The problems are already there; she’s just pointing out some of the ways that they’re evident.
I’m reminded of King Ahab, petulantly calling Elijah a “troublemaker”. To which Elijah responds by cooling reminding Ahab who was really making trouble for Israel.
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Sometimes even at women’s conferences, it seems.
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Here is what I posted on my Facebook page:
A decent article, but what most caught my attention was this line:
“And what of the state of the multi-million dollar Christian conference industry?”
Precisely. This is why John Piper, Mack Stiles, Al Mohler, Mark Dever, Wayne Grudem, Kevin DeYoung, etc. would rather rally in support of the blackmailer and sexual abuse cover-up man C.J. Mahaney than get down in the dirt and support the wounded sheep. It’s all about protecting the institution, which in this case is the Conference/book sales business.
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I think this would be a much clearer issue if there were’ millions of dollars at stake. The way to gauge a person’s truly ernest interests is what they do when they haven’t got a stake in the outcome.
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@ TW: Powerful statement.
Mosey on over to the joint post on Dubai. There is a guy arguing against us. he claims we don’t understand the situation over there. I am holding my own but it might be nice to have a comment from the true expert.
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@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Preach it Dr. Fundy! Just follow the money!!!
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@ TW:
I admire your steadfastness. I do believe one day the truth will be revealed.
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Of course T4G, DGNC, RC, LC & another RC are all male only.
Duh. Piper told us in all authority that Christianity should have a masculine feel and that women should joyfully submit to that and feel safe, satisfied and well cared for.
Except that we don’t, the sinners that we are…
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I think the main reason for this is that it's the neo-Cals and other conservative evangelicals who dominate the 'Christian' conference market – rather than minister to people they'd rather chase the fame and glory of celebrity and hawk their books. Given that the vast majority of these celebrity 'ministers' are male supremacists, it's no surprise that female speakers at their conferences are as welcome as Jesus was to the moneychangers. Those women they do invite to speak are typically relegated to a women's session. They know nothing of Christian love, only love of themselves.
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@ JeffT:
Yes, this seems to be the case, especially with the YRR crowd. As each year passes we see their TRUE MOTIVE$.
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@ JeffT: I left a church in which the pastor moaned that he had not yet published a book. he then proceeded to do so and was rather pleased with himself. The information was the same old, same old. Many of the books published are rehash. That goes for these “life changing” conferences. The only ones that can be sure of a life change is the guys up front double dipping and making bank.
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@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist: Many of them hide the stakes that they have in the game. At medical conferences, doctors are required, before giving a talk, to disclose if they are being paid by any drug or medical device company. That is not the case in this “Christian” arena. They get to NOT disclose.
My husband often says that he wishes Christian leaders would, at the minimum, hold to the standards of the secular world. Instead the lower the standards. We know of Christian leaders who get paid to speak at certain organizations and then go out to push the agenda of said organization without revealing that they are also getting paid for their little endorsements which are wrapped up in “gospel” talk.
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Rock star pastors such as Mark Driscoll and John Piper are probably earning a lot of money through these conferences and the sale of their books. As they gain publicity by making outrageous comments about women’s roles, thousands of Christians are quietly leaving organized Christianity. The “nones” who have no church affiliation now comprise 20% of the entire population and a shocking 30% for those under 30.
I do not know what percentage of the nones are still believers. I joined the ranks of the nones over a year ago, and I am still an orthodox believer. But after being hurt so badly by an abusive church, I have not yet mustered the interest in joining another church. The unspoken rules of high demand (cultlike) churches are very subtle and a member often does not find out he has violated a rule until after the fact. Then he or she will get shunned and slapped down hard for violating unspoken rules such as never disagree with the pastor. This is exactly what happened to me, and because I am unsure of how to spot an abusive church I am very reluctant to risk getting involved in another church only to be slapped down again.
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Has anybody checked the inside of the women’s restrooms at these Male Dominated Christian Conferences? It’s condition might be interesting…
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@ Mara:
Some women do feel safe and secure and cared for like that. It is not like all women agree with either philosophy or either theology. If there were a groundswell of women who had the money and the opportunity (and somebody to watch the kids) and they wanted to and did go to conferences, then this would constitute a market that somebody would take advantage. If we say that it is all about the money, then we have to assume that they know the market (have people who know the market) and that the market supports what they are doing.
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Nancy wrote:
I believe it's a matter of economics – supply and demand. There is a demand for conferences and books, and the leaders are great at manufacturing a market for them.
If the demand dried up, so would the supply…
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This whole discussion just seems rather silly to me.
The whole idea of multi-million dollar conferences for back-slapping and hawking books is repugnant. So why do we care that women are not “well represented” at them? I’d say that’s a good thing. Shows that women maybe have more character, brains, conscience, discernment. Discernment!
Rather than lamenting that women are not equally represented in the dung heap, we should rejoice, and exhort the others to “Come out from among them and be ye separate.”
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TedS. wrote:
Best darn comment of the month, if not the year!
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dee wrote:
I agree! Thanks, TedS.!
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@ Teri Anne:
Teri Anne, I love how you write. It is clear and to the point and I get it. I am so sorry that that mess happened to you. There is no way to handle getting slapped down and come out of it unscathed. Some people try to do the right thing and get hurt that way and have trouble thereafter. I handle it by getting aggressive, and then I feel guilty for being that aggressive. I was never a total “none” but I have been a conscientious objector toward the church, and been seriously mad at God and how he fails to solve things like I think they ought to be solved. But here is what I don’t know, and maybe you do. Of the “nones” who did not used to be a “none” do you have any stats on why they became nones? For example, for you it seems to have been church experience, and for me it was not specifically about church.
If you have some information on that I would like to know. Thanks
Ole Aunt Nancy
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TedS. wrote:
My favorite part of the comment!
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Hmm–somebody better tell Joyce Meyer, Beth Moore, Phyllis Shirer (sp?), Kay Arthur, and a whole host of ladies doing conferences that they aren’t doing them.
Are there a ton of male dominated conferences? Absolutely!
And there are a lot of female dominated one’s also.
When I look for a Bible teacher, I look for a good one. I will go no matter if it is male or female dominated. Not gonna go looking for a female teacher if she isn’t as good as a male one, or a male teacher if he isn’t as good as a female.
But outside of one little subset of evangelicalism there are plenty of female led seminars.
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This is an instance of a valid point being made by the wrong messenger. Like it or not, Rachel Held Evans’ views on some topics, such as sexuality, aren’t biblically orthodox. Thus, it’s not surprising she’s being criticized for raising this issue. Perhaps a different messenger would result in some positive changes.
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frankly, I am sick of conferences — male OR female! The hype, “banter,” and totally manufactured emotional ride (thanks to the “choreography” of many “worship” leaders) are repulsive. So many of them have that Disneyesque quality—neat, slickly packaged and well-planned “experiences” designed to part you from your money while you are supposed to be grateful for all they have done for you. Big business is just big business, in this case, wrapped up in Christian-ese.
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@ singleman: Just another way of saying “Shoot the messenger,” I think…
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@ Nancy:
Why should not the man of a household have responsibility for his children while his spouse goes to a conference? Three times in my life, I have taken primary responsibility for the day-to-day care of my two children, seeing that they got to daycare or school, taking them to the doctor (including getting a clean catch urine from my under 4 yo daughter at the direction of the nurse!!!), ensuring groceries were bought and brought home, etc., all while starting and running my own business, b/c mom was teaching school which provided health insurance and most of our income, due to the start up nature of my business.
What is wrong with our christian communities that they cannot see the advantage to men from being responsible for their children so mom can go to a conference and be educated and inspired?
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An Attorney wrote:
And fleeced?
Better yet, forget the conferences.
That husband and wife will be better off, and more ‘inspired,’ if they both stay home, have a nice time with the kids, then hire a babysitter and enjoy a nice romantic getaway for the weekend together.
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Teri Anne wrote:
Lots of fellow travelers with you Teri Anne. God understands where we are on our journey. After playing the game for awhile now I understand most of the unwritten rules, but I just don’t care to abide by them. My problem has always been “I calls em as I sees em.” Never have been much of a brown-nosed, nor do I care much for those who are.
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“At this time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” So he called a little child to him and set the child in front of them. Then he said, “I tell you solemnly, unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. And so, the one who makes himself as little as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 18:1-4)
In the competitive game of one-upmanship, the disciples are driven by the need to be important and significant. They want to be somebody. According to John Shea, “Every time this ambition surfaces, Jesus places a child in their midst or talks about a child.”
The sharpness of Jesus’ answer in Matthew 18 has not always been appreciated. Jesus says there is no “first” in the Kingdom. If you want to be first, become everybody’s lackey; return to your childhood and then you will be fit for the first place. Jesus leaves little room for ambition; and He leaves no more room for the exercise of power. “Lackeys and children are not bearers of power.”
The power games the pharisee plays, gross or subtle, are directed toward dominating people and situations, thereby increasing prestige, influence, and reputation. The myriad forms of manipulation, control, and passive aggression originate in the power center. Life is a series of shrewd moves and counter moves. The pharisee within has developed a fine radar system attuned to the vibrations of any person or situation that even remotely threatens his position of authority.
What a friend of mine calls “the king-baby syndrome” – the emotional programming that seeks to compensate for the power deficiency we experience as infants and youngsters – may lead to a preoccupation with status symbols, whether material possessions or cultivating people with economic or political clout. It may motivate a person to accumulate money as a source of power or to acquire knowledge as a means of achieving recognition as an “interesting” individual. The pharisee knows that knowledge can be power in the religious realm. The expert must be consulted before any definitive judgment can be made. This game of one-upmanship prevents the exchange of ideas and introduces a spirit of rivalry and competition that is antithetical to the unselfconsciousness of the child. Anthony DeMello explained, “The first quality that strikes one when one looks into the eyes of a child is its innocence; its lovely inability to lie or wear a mask or pretend to be anything other than what it is.”
The power ploys of the pharisee are predictable. However, the will to power is subtle. It may go undetected and therefore unchallenged. The omnivorous pharisee who succeeds in seizing power, collecting disciples, acquiring knowledge, achieving status and prestige, and controlling his world is estranged from their inner child. He grows fearful when an underling swipes his baton, cynical when feedback is negative, paranoid when threatened, worried when anxious, fitful when challenged, and distraught when defeated. The impostor caught up in the power game lives a hollow life with considerable evidence of success on the outside, while he is desolate, unloving, and anxiety-ridden on the inside. King-baby seeks to master God rather than be mastered by Him.
The true self is able to preserve childlike innocence through unflagging awareness of the core identity and by steadfast refusal to be intimidated and contaminated by peers “whose lives are spent not in living but in courting applause and admiration; not in blissfully being themselves but in neurotically comparing and competing, striving for those empty things called success and fame even if they can be obtained only at the expense of defeating, humiliating, destroying their neighbors.””
-Brennan Manning, “Abba’s Child: The Cry of the Heart for Intimate Belonging” pages 81-83
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Lisa wrote:
Preach it, sister. Amen! 🙂
Just give me Jesus, a small congregation that quietly and tenderly takes care of its own and serves its community, and a pastor who doesn’t give a rip about writing a bestseller or speaking at a conference. 1 Thessalonians 4:11 & 12.
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If I’m going to attend a conference, it’s typically going to be on a topic I’m interested in, such as healing or intercessory prayer. The conferences I attend aren’t known for their slick presentations, nor are the speakers engaging in backslapping or trying to get rich.
Maybe it’s time for a moratorium on conferences like the Nines, Together for the Gospel, Resurgence, etc.
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TW wrote:
Thanks for that quote, TW. I’m so glad I discovered Manning and read “Abba’s Child”. It’s the best book I’ve read this year. What a blessed relief it’s been to realize that God is a whole lot bigger than the box I used to put Him in.
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About those “NONES.”
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The Gospel of John notes that Jesus himself created his own “NONES.”
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When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see wthe Son of Man ascending to ywhere he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
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66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
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Their is nothing new about the “Nones.” A number of people would be pleased to blame the YRR crowd for the “nones,” but the “nones” have always been there. Even Jesus’s perfect teachings drove people away.
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@ An Attorney:
My husband was a kick-(deleted) and take names sort of person, and he kept the kids and held it all together while I went away for CME. I never went away for any other reason. But, we both always and always had to listen to people have negative or incredulous comments about the fact that he would do that. There seems to be something in our culture (not just the church) that thinks a real man just does not do that sort of thing. Now my son, who does ka&tn for a living does the same thing while his wife does CLE, and also while she and her book club buddies sometimes go away for the weekend just for R&R. I asked him if he got any static about it. He asked me if I was crazy–of course not. But it took a whole generation to get from what his father did to what the son does. Cultural attitudes change slowly. I did not say that is good–just that it is.
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@ TedS.:
I agree with you with respect to some conferences. But they can also be good places to network, get CEUs (CLEs for me) and accomplish other things that advance a person. Not all are rip-offs. The Baptist WMU holds state level conferences that once were great, inexpensive, and very inspirational for women. Have not been around one in 40+ years. BTW, men were always welcome, and I occasionally went along as a driver after my mom’s neck problem got to where she could not drive for very long at a time.
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Nancy wrote:
Nancy wrote:
Wow! I had no idea I was so pathetic. There’s a 10 year difference between our youngest and our next-oldest child. Twice I stayed home with the youngest while my wife took our two older ones to the UK. Church discipline for me.
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@ JeffT:
Just so you did not misunderstand me. I tried to be specific that I was not talking about the church but rather about “cultural attitudes” in general. Mostly what we heard was at work, but also some out in the community. I have no idea, nor do I much care, what some church thinks about it one way or the other. At any rate, I think that people pick up attitudes from elsewhere and then take them to church with them, and that is one reason why we have so much diversity in church beliefs and attitudes. I know this blog is about church abuse, but I keep raising the idea that it is not just the church–not by a long shot. And that is one reason why I think that arguments from scripture are sometimes a waste of time.
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TedS. wrote:
I like it.
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@ Nancy:
At work and in the community? Wow! I thought that was pretty much dead in most of secular society. My glasses must be rose-colorered.
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Our pastor/mentor once described conferences in general as “profile without foundation”.
In other news, it was another decent evening at the climbing wall, but I won’t bore you with the details.
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@ dee:
Bleh. I spent some time in Dubai. It is the most free Middle Eastern state you can imagine, and more capitalist than America. The thing is, it is a fascist state. As long as one keeps that in mind, there will be no trouble at all.
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@ Seneca:
I believe you are missing several major premises. Would you care to try again, couching your argument in logical syllogisms?
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
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DO dazzle me with your brilliance Doctor.
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@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist: As opposed to “illogical syllogisms”???
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Seneca wrote:
I’m turned off to Christianity these days thanks in large part to Christians (and a few other reasons, but that’s a big one).
I’m barely clinging on to Christianity mostly only due to Jesus Christ. So you have it backwards on the nones, or some of us, at least.
I hate it when people try to tell the nones why they’re nones.
Why not let the nones tell their own stories, rather than make assumptions about them, or attributing motives to them that you make up which they may not hold?
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Sounds like some churches that I know.
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numo wrote:
I’ve got no interest in shooting anybody. I was simply pointing out the reception may have been different had someone else raised the point.
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@ Seneca:
I’m not brilliant. I’m asking you to explain how you got from point A to point B.
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An Attorney wrote:
One can never be too sure ?-)
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Seneca wrote:
Well, as long as they are Jesus’ very own “nones”, there’s nothing much to worry about.
But go ahead and be grouchy about it if it makes you feel better.
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I mentioned this Caine lady on a thread about a week ago. She’s been on American Christian TV quite a bit over the last couple of years, as a guest on “Life Today” and other shows:
Christine Caine: Trust God to Open Doors for Women
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Well, the Missions Conference at United Christian Church of Dubai has come to a close. Mark Dever, a scheduled speaker, was unable to make it – I have heard his wife is ill. Mack (not Mark Stiles as referenced below) Stiles filled in for Dever. Stiles seems to have all the prerequisite qualifications to speak authoritatively on the subject of missions; that is, he has shown unquestioning loyalty to the powers that be in the Gospel Coalition and 9Marks organizations and he has shown his support for the blackmailer and sexual abuse cover up man C.J. Mahaney by speaking at the church Mahaney “planted” when he ran away from his church in Gaithersburg. The adoring 9Marks devotees in Dubai were gushing in their praise of the whole show on Facebook. I raised some valid concerns on some of their Facebook posts and received the standard charges of being “divisive,” a “gossiper” and “is it really wise to air our dirty laundry in public?” One guy totally removed his post after a lengthy dialogue between me and some of the UCCD faithful started to get a bit uncomfortable for them. Here are a few samples of the typical posts, usually attached to photos of the men they worship:
“Feeling blessed at UCCD Missions Conference with John Piper, John Folmar, Mark Stiles and Victor Attallah.”
“What an amazing weekend! Feel so saturated with joy and eagerness with all that i have been blessed with. May You cause this seed to grow in me oh Spirit of the living God! Thank you United Christian Church Of Dubai!! Thank you!”
Here is my blog in response to the conference. I am a bit frustrated with the continual glorification of these men and their conferences. Missions and evangelism may be great, but it seems to me that before you start spreading your message you should first of all tend to the hurting within your own church. Even acknowledging them would be a good start.
http://thouarttheman.org/2013/11/16/riches-fame-and-adoration-trumps-christlike-concern-for-victims-of-abuse/
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@ singleman: Your 1st post on this seemed pretty strongly worded – as if her message was/is invalidated by the fact that you do not agree with her on some things.
That’s unfortunate; she has some excellent points and if people were a shade more open-minded, they wouldn’t have shut her off because of those differences.
I get tired of seeing these guys find 50 reasons to invalidate what a woman says when she has a good response, or just good ideas, period.
It happens a *lot* in the so-called “christian” blogosphere, and on Twitter and Facebook. Either we act like grown-ups and realize that we can agree to disagree on certain things while at the same time *listening* to what the other person has to say, or else we default to childish ‘You’re not part of *my* clique, so I’m covering my ears” mode.
Somehow, I think the latter is not consonant with how Jesus enjoins us to treat each other, and it certainly doesn’t work in professional settings.
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@ Teri Anne:
Be encouraged by a (late 40’s) “none” who still follows Jesus but cannot see herself ever going back to an institutional church. I suspect God is calling many of his people (the “nones”) out of the institution because of it’s abusive, excluding attitudes and behaviours. I believe He has something much more authentic for us 🙂
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Back in July, the Gospel Coalition announced that they would “develop a series of books written specifically by women addressing cultural issues, as well as other unique resources focused on faith and work.”
Since they are complementarians, I wonder what a TGC book on women and work would look like.
Probably this:
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm216/darkdanny15/Blank-Book.gif
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Daisy wrote:
“I am grateful for the opportunity to serve leaders at conferences like The Nines, and I think the very fact that some one like me is included as a speaker in leadership conferences all over the world suggests that the church is very willing to hear from women as well as men….” — Christine Caine
Or, it suggests the church is full of very gullible sheep who are easily parted with their money.
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Deb wrote:
Yes, I agree. Also, it’s important to remember that “rock star” conference speakers have to be careful how their personal behavior may appear to the public. I recall many years ago (the 1970’s) I heard Reverend Jimmy Swaggart speak here in upstate New York. He explained why there were no women in his crusade, tent meeting, etc. He said that he wanted to avoid any possible appearance of impropriety. Even at my former place of employment, we were instructed to not even accept a free cup of coffee from a potential customer. Pay for everything, to avoid any appearance that the transaction may not be on the up and up.
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@ Janey:
I liked your .gif, 🙂 , but I think it depends on how one defines work.
If one defines work for women as some complementarians do, the book might look something like this-
Book
If we’re talking about books complementarians would approve of for women in general, especially complementarians in the Mark Driscoll school of thought:
Book 2
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Ken wrote:
Yep.
Billy Graham did the same thing during his career. He refused to be seen alone or left alone with a woman while staying in hotels on his crusade tours.
I’ve read of more examples of this in books by Christians about adult singlehood.
It may sound sensible at first glance, or even noble, but it really only supports the conservative evangelical, fundamentalist, and Baptist stereotype that women (especially the unmarried ones) are dangerous harlots out to tempt married men.
Unmarried women have become somewhat akin to the lepers of the Bible days – people avoid us, shun us, or keep us at arm’s length, because we are unclean, shifty, untrustworthy, and dangerous. It ends up being a damaging view to single women and hurts the overall church (body of believers).
It’s also common relationship advice in Christian books and blogs: men are told to stay away from women. Even in books for and by adults, about dating.
I’ve seen it in Christian dating advice to teens, but it also comes up in material for adults.
Adult, single (heck, even married) men, have been instructed by preachers and Christian authors not to even meet an adult single woman for a cup of coffee, or to talk too much to her (and this is in books by and for singles who want to get married).
How in the heck are a couple supposed to marry if they can’t even spend time alone, getting to know one another? It’s self-defeating.
Then Al Mohler and other Christians wonder and worry why many Christians aren’t marrying at all anymore, or not marry for the first time until they are 35, 40, 50+ years old. It’s not a mystery to me and other adult singles.
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@ numo:
I agreed with your post.
I didn’t take singleman’s post quite the same way, though.
I think he made a decent point that some people who may otherwise listen to RHE’s views will dismiss them merely because she is a woman and/or because they don’t agree with her on some other topic.
I don’t agree with RHE on everything, either, but I do agree with her on a few things.
I’m willing to listen to someone and consider their opinions on whatever topic, even though we may not see eye to eye on every topic under the sun.
There are some groups of Christians who are notorious for doing the opposite.
At the top of that, IMO, would be Independent Fundamentalist Baptists, with their doctrine of separation. But it’s an attitude I see among other types of Christians too.
The Neo Reformed guys are pretty much like that.
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@ Daisy: RHE has been unfairly attacked since the publication of A Year of biblical Womanhood.
I don’t think any of us, including her, are above criticism, but it does seem to me like there are people just waiting to pounce on anything she says. (Not singleman or you, but *lots* of others.)
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Daisy wrote:
Regardless of what it might or might not support, it was a pragmatic response to a real-life situation in which those determined to smear a political opponent (and there were influential people who found Billy Graham inconvenient) would go to any lengths to fabricate evidence against them. I don’t believe for a minute that Billy Graham believed all women were temptresses or harlots, nor that he was guarding himself against women. It’s more or less impossible to pursue any course of action that can’t be construed, if taken out of context, as perpetuating some stereotype or other.
If Graham was perpetuating a stereotype, it was a picture of how dirty US politics had become during the Nixon era (and the US isn’t the only nation to have dirty politics).
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___
“Pastorally Golden?”
What?
How to avoid ‘any’ possible appearance of impropriety?
hmmm…
Pastoral Golden Rule #1: Watch your faith and practice. (doctrine)
Pastoral Golden Rule #2: Avoid personally handling money.
Pastoral Golden Rule #3: Avoid being alone with the opposite sex at all cost. Run.
Primary Potential Pastoral Problem(s) Prognosticated.
-snark-
—
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Daisy wrote:
Agree 100%!! How is this different than hiding a woman under a burka to avoid the appearance of evil by looking at her? It’s a very subtle way of elevating one’s character while at the same time implying women’s very being may cause sin. A sterling character would be better exemplified by portraying the unity of the Body of Christ and the fruit of the Spirit by drawing attention to the diversity of it’s members regardless of race, ethnicity, gender or economic status.
If one is tempted by money, does it make sense to avoid all those who are wealthy???
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Next Big Box is up. Doug talking about putting and women and children first. Gag me with a spoon.
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2013/11/17/women-and-children-first-tbb/
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In other news, the Indian Mars Orbiter Mission has now successfully completed its final orbital raising manoeuvre before its scheduled transition, on 1st December, to an earth-escaping transfer orbit.
I’ll keep you posted.
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numo wrote:
I agree.
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Daisy wrote:
That’s what Patriarch-Arranged Marriages are for.
It’s called Christian Courting(TM).
(And twenty grand in bride price waved under the Patriarch’s nose can really grease the skids…)
It’s not a mystery to me, either. It’s one of the reasons why I never married. That and the deep distrust of women it creates in men.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
The results, as I said above, have been harmful to single women, and it needs to stop.
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Ken wrote:
Obviously this was before Swaggart got caught with that prostitute.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I know, but we are talking mainstream Baptist and evangelical attitudes, dating books, dating advice blogs. Some of these attitudes are not confined to the very far out patriarchy / courtship groups.
A lot of conservative Christian ((*)as in, Baptist, evangelical, fundy, and some Neo Calvinists – I really should not have to keep qualifying which exact groups I mean, but I get jumped on by various Protestants if I do not) teaching about relationships and the genders also makes women distrustful of men, too.
Men are portrayed as only interested in sex and nothing else, and are also depicted in Christian(*) teachings and preaching as being apt to sexually assault you at the drop of a hat.
Not only does that type of teaching mess up women and make it hard for some women to trust guys enough to form a relationship (and hence to marry), but I’ve heard from single males across the ages (20s to 50s) that this idea that they are 100% sex obsessed potential rapists creates various problems for them too, not only in terms of them getting dates, but how they feel about themselves.
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@ Nick Bulbeck: And it was an easy excuse for characterizing women as vixens, predators, etc.
Seriously. (Not to mention Graham’s very close association with Nixon – gah!!!)
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I traveled extensively on business, teaching seminars and chairing conferences for a trade show enterprise. Between the other presenters and the show company staff, there were about 30 of us who were together for up to a week at a time as many as eight times a year, with some small variation in who was at each place. The group was of mixed gender, and it was generally the case that the women were single and a bit younger than the men. Most of the men made it a rule that not to be alone with one of the women except in a very public place, where we would meet, coming to the place separately and leaving separately, not wanting to compromise the reputation of the women, most of whom worked for our sponsor-employer year round, while most of the men were episodically employed. It was not because we thought the women would throw themselves at us, but because we respected them and did not want scurrilous talk about them getting back to their corporate bosses. It was our way of protecting both their reputations and ours.
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numo wrote:
I’ve learned more about the bible passages used to support the subjugation, errm, subordination^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H submission of women from Rachel Evans’ blog than from anywhere else, and the authors that she quotes seem to know exactly what they are writing about.
None of the complementarians have managed to put the verses supporting their point of view sufficiently into a historical and cultural context to be in any way credible. But then again, fundamentalism is – pardon the pun – fundamentally a-historical, and so is all this complementarian silliness.
If you have a problem with women who go to the gym, or give you directions on where you drive in a not sufficiently “submissive” way, or if you need to draw up long lists of things that are progressively less permissible for women in the church, you definitely have a problem that can’t be solved by more reading of biblical proof texts.
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Ken wrote:
Yes, one of my personal favorites – Dinesh D’Souza after being caught sharing a hotel room with a young woman last year while still married to his first wife, “I had no idea that it is considered wrong in Christian circles to be engaged prior to being divorced.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/19/nyregion/dinesh-dsouza-is-out-as-kings-college-president-in-scandal.html?_r=0
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gus wrote:
Not only that, but. I believe the problem with complemneatarianism is the utter inability to define it in any practical way beyond no women pastors/ elders and husbands get the tie breaking vote. That’s it. I have asked and asked and asked. They say “It looks different for different people.” This is their problem.
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This has to be the silliest “debate” of the year.
People put conferences together and select the speakers they prefer.
The people who attend chose to hear those speakers.
People who object have a remedy. Host their own conferences.
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@ Anonymous: I am a great believer in the free market system so my gut reaction is to agree with you. But, when the power brokers of the faith attend these conferences and those in a position of power do not seem to find the input of women to be of value, then I think it may speak to an underlying problem in the evangelical faith.
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@ Daisy:
Huh. I’m married, but I go out with other women all the time. They are my sisters in Christ, and we trust each other. I noticed an unhealthy infatuation with sex when I was in fundamentalist circles; I fear it is spreading.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I don’t go out with other women, even sisters in Christ. To be perfectly honest, I always KNOW they are women and I can too easily feel attracted to their femininity. Doctor, you may respond differently.
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@ linda:
Check out those women’s ages, though. They will soon retire into the sunset. Beth Moore is grandmother, Kay Aurthur was around when I was younger (20 years ago) and she wasn’t a spring chicken then, I don’t know Phyllis, etc. But where are the new, fresh faces? T4G is full of wet behind the ears young men with young families.
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Seneca wrote:
There’s just so much wrong with what Seneca’s written here.
First, I’d note that we don’t know if Jesus actually said what the gospel of John reports him to have said. It doesn’t match anything said in the Synoptic Gospels.
Second, I’d note that the specific teaching (that is, “eating his flesh and drinking his blood”) has been used by Catholics for centuries as a cudgel against Protestant beliefs regarding communion. It’s a proof-text for transubstantiation, basically. (I question whether a first century Jew would have said something like that, but that’s just me.)
Third, ripping a text out from its context so you can beat people over the head with it just reminds me yet again why I bagged the church. It certainly wasn’t because of hard teachings. It would be a heck of a lot easier in my family if I was a good church attendee instead of an annoyed former churched person.
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Seneca wrote:
I don’t know but this is face-palmingly *weird* to me. Do you have a problem working with women? With having a woman as your boss? *shakes head*
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Anonymous wrote:
I don’t know that conferences are necessary. I’d rather see the money go towards real needs, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, etc. To me, conferences are a way to separate out the elite (with money) from the hoi polloi (who have to work, and work very hard to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads).
Yeah, I’m saying conferences are elitist.
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__
HowDee!
Our Creator is in the ‘life’ changing business.
huh?
Be sure ta check out Liz’s story,
…maybe you have a story to tell as well!
U Matter.
Bunches of Bless’ins!
Sopy
___
Liz’s story:
“When I was sixteen I was considered a “good girl.” I had attended the Presbyterian Church from the time I could walk; I was baptized as an infant, I was an active church member, I obeyed my parents and did well in school. And, just to make sure—I made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ. “I viewed it as an insurance policy just in case ‘being good’ wasn’t enough.” I viewed it as an insurance policy just in case “being good” wasn’t enough.
Over the next 10 years, I continued to be a “good girl:” attending church, teaching Sunday school, attending and graduating from a Bible college, marrying and having two children. It was after my husband and I moved to a new location that we began to look for a church that the whole family could enjoy. In late September 1995, we began visiting Lehigh Valley Baptist Church. The people were friendly even though their standards seemed a bit “strict.”
We continued to visit, and started a four-week beginner’s Bible study with another couple. It was during this time that I began to understand how God really views man.
On the morning of November 12th, a sermon was preached on the wretchedness of sin. I found myself extremely uncomfortable with how I felt about myself and my relationship with God. God showed me that I wasn’t as “good” as I thought I was. I realized that though my actions might be viewed as better than those of some other people, my heart had never been in a right relationship with the Lord. I may have had my “act” down, but the Lord knew my heart. I had never relinquished my life, my soul, my all to Him.
I had been living a life that was steady on the outside, yet full of fear and anger on the inside. I feared the future and I feared death. I was angry at all the problems that seemed to fall my way. “I could act happy in public, yet once I was alone with my family, I was a tense, temperamental person.” I could act happy in public, yet once I was alone with my family, I was a tense, temperamental person. Sin was also a part of my daily life. However, I became adept at justifying my sin away. After all, I was a “Christian” living such a “good life,” What could be wrong with a little sin here and there?
I returned to the evening service to find the sermon focusing on compromise and how the Lord cannot compromise. The God of today is the same God as the God of the Bible. His standards have not changed. I saw for the first time how narrow the “narrow path” really is.
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Matthew chapter 7 verses 13 and 14.
I was scared. Scared for myself and for all my family. The realization that I had been deceived in believing for 10 years that I was “good enough” to get into Heaven made me fearful for others who are believing the same lie. It also made me thankful that the Lord had spared my life until this point that I might truly come to know Him. He had spared me from that awful moment many will experience when they die and wake up in eternal torment.
When an invitation was given I walked forward and was taken aside by a lady of the church where we sat and talked for one hour. She shared scripture with me . Knowing that the Lord was working in my heart I went straight home to be alone with Him and to settle things. I saw so clearly what Jesus Christ had done for me by dying on the cross to pay for my sins. He did this for me, a sinner. The Lord could have nothing to do with a wretched sinner, but after repenting of my sins and accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior I was now made acceptable in His sight. My heart had truly been changed.
That night the Lord in His mercy brought me to my knees in repentance. He saved my soul and I have been made a new creation in Him. Nothing in my life has ever compared to the peace, the joy and the security that I now feel as a child of God. My God is real. He loves me—and He is always with me.
This peace, joy and security can be yours too! “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” John chapter 3 verses 16 and 17.”
___
Notes:
Video: Liz Roy – “I was a good girl, headed for a bad place…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31h7XcnAS2s&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Liz’s testimony link: http://lvbaptist.org/lroy/
—
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@ Ken:
And what good did that do Jimmy Swagart? He too was found in an affair.
Notice how the ones so obsessed with appearances (Swagart, Doug Phillips of VF) keep falling into sexual sin, despite layers of law around their interactions with women. Paul (apostle) is clear, the Law (any law to make you Holy) will bind you. Make laws and you will fail.
I look at Paul and Jesus, in a society a million times more segregated than ours. They hung out with women all the time and didn’t give a hoot what the Pharisees said behind their backs. Maybe we need more dedicated celibate leaders out there. Mother Teresa, John of the Cross, basically most of the great Christians were celibate, and they all had no trouble with opposite gender friendships (Teresa of Avila save John of the Cross many times, till she couldn’t, from death), Paul had numerous female partners in his ministry (he was even in jail WITH Junia), Jesus had women with him his whole time ministering. Yet we keep choosing leaders who are burning with lusts most secular men can manage (female co-workers).
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An Attorney wrote:
I agree with 99% of your posts, An Attorney. But you need to understand that for women in corporate America, we’d rather have your genuine friendship, comradeship, and promotion of our careers than have you delicately tiptoe on egg shells to “protect our reputations.” That line of thinking gives men the excuse to exclude us. And I find that it is something that sounds chivalrous, but is actually very sexist.
When I circulate in the secular world, I have far better friendships with men than I do when I’m in the Christian world. Secular men accept me and value me.
Sometimes — when in negotiations with sexist Christian leaders — I have to send my male employees to meet with them. It’s a win for me because those customers don’t get the best deal under those circumstances.
And no, non-Christians have never taken advantage of me. I determine my personal and business friendships on the basis of character, not gender.
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@ Janey:
An attorney actually said ” It was our way of protecting both their reputations and ours.”
I would have said that was sensible, and hardly sexist as it was applied mutually – where has the wanting ‘equality’ suddenly gone?! Don’t you like being shown respect, the stated intention?
Christians do have to maintain higher standards than the world in avoiding the appearance of evil, the world doesn’t care what you do sexually but the church has to be seen to be holy.
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gus wrote:
And burqas, locked harems, honor killings, and FGM have already been tried by others. All it does is supercharge the Forbidden Fruit effect into some really kinky paraphilias.
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@ Ken:
Ken,
A lot of disrespect is handed to women using the phrase “avoiding the appearance of evil.”
What’s the definition of “appearance of evil”? I would say, touching, kissing, gazing longingly into each others eyes across a room, and standing within 12 inches of each other.
But sexist Christians define it in insultingly broad ways: sitting in the same room, walking out the door at the same time, having a conversation.
Sorry, I don’t buy that. It just shows the world how pathetic we Christians are. It gives a message to the world that we are weak, unable to control ourselves, and put appearances above real respect. We are laughable.
Jesus didn’t act that way, and I’m sorry that some of my Christian brothers do.
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Daisy wrote:
Weird thing is, Daisy, I was taught the same thing about women (from family, not from church). That women want one thing and one thing only, and if you don’t give it to ’em they’ll leave you for someone else. Then that actually happened with the only girlfriend I’ve ever had. I ended up with a deep deep distrust of women that continues to this day.
(Funny thing, this only extends to RL human women. Fictional women — especially if they are visibly NOT human (no Elves or parahumans) — don’t trip the alarm bells. (If Twilight Sparkle were real, I’d have a ring ready for her horn.) But then, as far back as I can remember I’ve empathized with fictional characters more than RL people; side effect of growing up an isolated kid genius.)
Don’t forget the fear of false rape or sexual harassment accusations. (After all, if men are 100% sex-obsessed potential rapists, that gives such false accusations a lot of weight.) Or the fear of false paternity suits for fun & profit. (Both of which I also heard from my family.) It means we single men have to live completely separate from any RL female in order to be safe. And I’ll tell you that isolation comes out in different ways, usually called paraphilias or kinks. Your only hope is that your paraphilia is only embarrassing instead of downright destructive.
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Ken wrote:
I do not want to appear argumentative but I want to give another point of view about what it means to be holy. I have come to the conclusion, as a careful observer of all things evangelical, that we cannot, and do not appear holy, to outsiders. This is not meant to be a diss on Christians. It, in fact, is the truth.
We are positionally holy through Jesus but we are functionally sinful. Yet, we try to appear holy to our neighbors and balk when the inevitable happens. They call us on our failures, of which there are many and then act defensive when they do so.
I propose a new way of presenting ourselves. We explain that we are deeply in need of grace because not now, and not tomorrow, can we live up to the standard of holiness set before us by our Lord. That day is reserved for heaven.
We tell our observers that Christ has changed our hearts and that, in spite of our obvious failures, we wish we could live up to that glorious standard. We present to them the realities of the faith. We are longing for holiness (at least some of the time because we fail also in that arena) and are attempting to understand our fallen nature. We should not present a Christianity that pretends that we are great success. We are not. We are a mess.
We have to fudge the results if we do want to pretend we are holy. We pick the sins with which we do not struggle and then use those to bludgeon our neighbors. I prefer to live out my life not trying to pretend. (Even though, at times I do pretend because of that nature). I am who I am and that is why I needed, and continue to need, the grace of Jesus.
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‘Equality’ is treating a female, Christian or not, like a “sister” in Christ. It is not treating her like a vixen who is out to tempt.
It’s my observation that Christian men have been trained to think the worst of women simply because they are female and not because they know the character of the woman.
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@ Janey:
I’m glad you clarified that. I did the ‘touching’ etc bit, eventually we got married! Avoíding the appearance of evil then means not behaving in such a way that could be misconstrued that I’m extending my interest to a different woman.
I would not include normal female friendships in this. That’s hopelessly legalistic and simply not practical. I would not, however, whether single or married, regularly visit a woman alone, as however innocent it might actually be (helping with a language course or something) it could look to a watching world as though ‘something was going on’. That and putting yourself where you might actually be tempted is what needs avoiding, not women themselves. It’s actual concrete evildoing that needs avoiding (which is what the Thess. expression is really getting at in context).
Temptation is, of course, and equal opportunities employer!
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“More than 100 speakers and only four of them are women. This is not what the church looks like. #thenines2013 ”
I never really know the best way to respond to this sort of thinking. First of all, the ratio of male to female speakers should never surprise us in those venues. Secondly, if one is advocating some sort of Christianese affirmative action for females speakers at heavily comp conferences, does that not negate the whole point? They would simply trot out more Mary Kassian clones. Problem solved.
But if one makes their living writing/speaking, I can see why this would be a big deal.
RHE has done a yeoman’s work on bringing in different scholarly views of the ridiculous teaching concerning women out there and for that I am very grateful. Although I found her book to have a foundational problem in how she viewed the OT. However, I think she and many others in her age group who are seeking to change things are making the same exact mistake the so called religious “right” made years before. And I base that on her own published video explaining who “they” are I came across on her blog. They are left wing Christians which does not communicate freedom to me at all. But a collective. No thanks.
And I think her tweet fits into that perspective.
I don’t care how many women speakers the comp/patriarchal/YRR, etc conferences have. I would not trust the women they chose to speak to them anyway. In fact, this “conference” circuit stuff is ridiculous. For those guys it is a way of life.
Instead of calling for more women speakers at comp/pat male conferences, I would think our analyzing what any speaker taught at them would be more instructive.
Just my 2 cents which is not worth much anyway
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Ken wrote:
So is submission if you start in Eph 5:21 (or maybe 5:15) and “keep it in context” as you so eloquently pointed out in your previous post.
Leaving heaven and death on a cross to redeem mankind and birth his Church wasn’t a form of submission?!
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@ Janey:
No, we did not tiptoe around, we just made sure there were several of us together, and if meeting one-to-one, it all occurred in one public place. That was in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The women involved appreciated our concerns. BTW, that rule was in effect at their place of employment for all of the people who worked there. If meeting with someone outside the premises, meet and separate in a public place.
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@ An Attorney:
And I make my professional friendships on the basis of personality, competence, capability, and character, and my personal friendships on the basis of personality. I am good professional friends with a number of women who are lawyers and recruited one to help me with a complex case because she knows that part of the law better than I, and I gave her the lead on those issues, since I was designated as the lead attorney on the case. I make referrals of cases I cannot take, for a variety of reasons, to the person I think can best handle that case, without regard to gender. I have been an advocate of equality of rights and treatment of persons without gender for more than 50 years, having reached that conclusion as a teenager, and on race for longer than that; and with respect to gender preferences not being a reason for differentiation of rights, for more than 30 years. There is no reason in our society to discriminate against anyone with respect to the law and to the civil and economic rights.
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@ An Attorney:
Well said. Really well said.
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@ TW:
Todd I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to read your posts. When I read your comments, analysis, and discernment it encourages me. As for your comment made at the missions conference about Christians “don’t hang out their dirty laundry” I think of my personal experiecne. I used to look up to John Piper and admire him, however I felt so sick when he taught that women endure abuse. I went to the largest atheist ralley in the United States – The Reason Rally on the National Mall here in Washington, D.C.; and heard atheists attack and decry how Christianity is a cancer becuase of Christian pastors who teach that women endure abuse. As I heard that I thought of John Piper.
There is one word…ONE word only that comes to my mind when I think of the modern reformed community. And that word is…..corruption.
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Ken wrote:
I have always found it so. If I need to avoid a certain situation or certain kind of situation because of my own vulnerabilities, then I need to do that. And it is nobody’s business if I do so. And, if I need to avoid a certain situation or certain kind of situation because my enemies could seize on it, misrepresent it, and do damage to me or my marriage or my professional standing or my church or my children or whatever I do not want damaged, then I would be a fool to let myself fall into some trap regardless of what anybody thought about it. You don’t have enemies? Then you better start living in a way that you do have some. As in “woe to you when…”
@ dee:
Amen. Preach it sister. And then preach it again.
I do think that still leaves some room for difference of opinion regarding do’s and don’ts. For example. I used to smoke cigarettes. I quit in January, 1964 when the first surgeon general’s report came out. I quit for health reasons (mine) and also because I feel that health care professionals must set an example and don’t smoke, and get the fat off and lay off the booze, etc. The first reason is obviously “authentic”, but I get the impression that there are those who think that the second reason is “hypocritical.” Now, surely nobody should say that I need to gain 50 pounds, start smoking again and take up serious boozing just to prove to whomever that I am not a hypocrite. Blipp that.
I am not saying that that is what Dee is saying. Not by a long shot. I am trying to get somebody to address the issue of how to be “authentic” while still doing and/or refraining from doing things that some would consider fundyfied and/or hypocritical.
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Sometimes an avoidance of females, rather than a view of them as tempters, actually reflects their own weakness in the area of sex. Kinda like a person avoiding bars…not because they serve beer, but because of his addiction to alcohol.
Could it be?
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I think that some conferences are profitable for reason mentioned in a prior post. As a young pastor I sought to attend many on how to grow the church, provide leadership, and develop the church’s administrative tasks better. But now, at 60 and have retired (for health reasons) after 40 years in the pastorate, I can now look back and realize that all I really needed to know was four things which I teach my students in my biblical studies class today.
1. Walk with God
2. Preach the word
3. Love and be devoted to people
4. Leave the results to God
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Victorious wrote:
Don’t forget the “I have X Problem, so all the rest of you must have X Problem” factor. With the corollary of preaching to remove their own temptation in a form of covert self-treatment.
Like recovering alcoholic Billy Sunday compulsively preaching against Demon Rum. Or Ted Haggard preaching against homosexuality. Or Rush Limbaugh fanboying the War on Drugs while fighting a secret Oxycontin addiction. Or the married elder automatically assuming a single HAD to have a problem with Internet Porn (from a single’s reminisces on either here or a similar blog).
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Eagle wrote:
Didn’t a lot of prophets (including one itinerant Rabbi from Nazareth) call out the Jewish establishment in their time for Corruption?
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Eagle wrote:
Eagle, wasn’t the Reason Rally a catalyst in your journey? Before you went to it, you used to rant about how Christianity was a cancer because of your own Evangelical burn job; afterwards, not so much.
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@ Victorious:
I think this is the case some of the time. But I also believe that some people have taken a personal vulnerability and turned it into something they believe all Christian men and women need to practice.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG, I’m sad that you had such wretched experiences with women that you’ve lost all trust. Like Daisy, I had the same in reverse. What awful things we do to each other and how deeply it gets etched into us!
I have male friends now, mostly (not all) married, and no one has a problem with it because we are trustworthy friends. It took time to develop but these guys can come over and their wives might appear later, or not; we are free with each other. I hope you can find same with a few women someday.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Exactly the point I was making, HUG! I had forgotten some of the examples you posted, but those are perfect instances of “protesting too much.”
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@ John: But none of those four points get you invited to conferences to speak so that you write books and can eventually build yourself a mansion on this earth, do they?
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
That’s absolutely correct. And the evidence of being preoccupied with something is clear to be seen, and is painful to watch, for any one with half a heart. And it does damage to other people. Some of the people most damaged are not just the identified victims of these people, but also the people who think that the keeping of laws and rules will put them in right standing with God. But when that does not accomplish what they hope for they just go looking for more laws and rules. Surely we have all seen this pattern. The victims are hurt, but the people who seek salvation in more and more rules are dead already, if I read scripture correctly.
Equally correct, however, is to assume that just because I may not have a problem with such or such, then neither does anybody else and therefore their behavior is just mean and contrary stupidity. Did not Paul talk about this kind of thing in his discussion of food offered to idols? Does not one have a responsibility to the “weaker brother?” The whole issue of balancing freedom and responsibility is tricky. Personally I don’t think that idols are anything and who cares where they got the food, but that does not relieve me of the responsibility to know that it is a problem for some people. And if I pass up the food offered to idols, does that make me automatically a nut case? Not that I have had that opportunity recently, exactly, this is just an example. I am just saying, that it is not all as clear as it would be nice if it were. If I pass up the food offered to idols, does that make me a legalist or does that mean I care about other people? The answer is, it could be either one, and any premature conclusion about my behavior is apt to be wrong. We are quick to say judge not about the person eating the food offered to idols, but we are quick to condemn the person passing up that food. We need to think that through more carefully.
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@ TW:
I did not understand the power plays because I did not understand Protestant culture, which was more bewildering to me than the culture I encountered in Africa. I converted from Catholicism a week after my husband died 11 years ago, and I was not sure how friendly Protestant churches were supposed to be. It took me a long time to realize I was being shunned.
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I am so sorry about what happened to you. TW had some good stuff to say. If I knew what to say I would say it. God help us all, and especially you and others who have been subjected to this mess.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You have a point here.
I don’t get these preacher guys at all. As a teacher, about 70% of my colleagues are female, and if I never could be in the same room alone with a female colleague that would put a rather abrupt end to all forms of cooperation. (Being in the same room alone with a female student, now that is not something I would do. At least not without an open door in an area where lots of other people come and go.)
It must be the extreme purity thing that makes these preachers’ minds so one-track minded.
A nice anecdote from a few years back: fundamentalist Egyptian clerics declared that stuffing eggplants was improper for women, lest they be tempted by impure thoughts.
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@ gus:
Gee, eggplants being stuffed. What about cucumbers, hot dogs, and the worst: wursts.
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Ken wrote:
Ken,
I am sure you are a good guy and I’ve agreed with many of your posts on this blog, but I find there’s double-speak and crazy-making on this topic.
Excuse me if I get really fired up. It’s a sore spot.
If concrete evildoing is the thing that is the real sin and needs to be avoided, and normal female friendships are fine, then “avoiding the appearance of evil” is something that is merely a crazy-making term that is used to exclude women, belittle women, and treat us as if we are lower than men are.
I would say that men and women’s platonic relationships fall into the Apostle Paul’s comments about liberty.
If a man cannot be alone with a woman without attempting to rape her, he should avoid contact with women.
If a man is a predator, he should not spend time with women, even in the context of language training. Or if he finds out that the woman he is instructing has a history of drugging men or blackmailing them into sex with her, then he needs to discontinue the lessons. It’s character not gender. It’s real sin, not always worrying about what other people might think. Having Christians disapprove of you doesn’t mean you’ve sinned. Jesus was disapproved of all the time, but he never sinned. In fact, he rigorously defended his relationships with women. He went on attack mode against Pharisees and others who deigned to judge him.
Jesus didn’t buy into the “appearance of evil” stuff when it came to male-female relations. He talked with women alone quite often, and he even discussed their sex life with them. One might infer from his response to Mary Magdalene after the Resurrection that they had hugged in the past. Jesus always treated women as intelligent, honorable people.
My father was the first Christian feminist I ever met (far more so than my mother). On the job he promoted women, treated them with respect, and woe to anyone in his company who called them “girls.” And that was in the 1970s and 1980s. He loved his own mother and he was always a model of support and encouragement to women. And no, he never stepped over the line with them. He would talk with them and spend time with them, but he was a man who wasn’t a predator. He didn’t use people. And no one ever censured him for his stance.
I don’t think we should worry so much about what Christians think. I no longer care. As an executive, I have business to do, and I’m going to do it. The world, on the other hand, sees Christian men treating women as Muslim men do, and think we’re stuck up little prigs.
We need to be like Jesus, not like the Pharisees.
/end rant/
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Daisy,
And by the way (addition to comment above), I’ve only had one Christian man, in decades of workplace friendships, ever make even the slightest sexual innuendo toward me.
The silent shunning and excluding of women (and acting righteous for doing it) is what I get from some Christian men.
Billy Graham’s security efforts aren’t normal behavior for men. Graham had enemies and paparazzi who wanted to humiliate him. He was a celebrity who was a target. He wasn’t an average guy. If we were Christian celebrities, we’d hire bodyguards too, … and not just to avoid sexual attacks.
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@ Janey:
I think because this is a sore spot, you are seeing things not in my post. It’s standard feminist rhetoric that all men are potential rapists, but I didn’t have that in mind. It’s simply that believers must be aware of how their actions can be misconstrued by an unbelieving world only too keen to believe the worst. What outsiders think does matter. Our liberty is further restricted in not violating another believer’s weak conscience.
I also coupled this with advice I heard more than once, and I think good advice, that no-one should ever think they are temptation proof, so use a bit of savvy in what they do.
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@ Ken: sorry, but it isn’t “standard feminist rhetoric”; it’s the view of a few on the fringe.
Again, you’re taking an extreme example and trying to make it seem as if all feminists think this when it’s simply not true.
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__
The Southern Baptist Convention of Churches (SBC) teaches that a church’s pastoral leadership team consisting of women is incompatible with that organizations understanding of scripture. Those women who do not believe that this position is consistent with scripture are strongly encouraged to attend religious services elsewhere.
Individual Baptist churches are not bound by this convention however, yet may suffer consequences should female leadership be engaged. This ruling and subjacent penalties for non-compliance are currently being challenged in certain quarters. -snark-
—
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Ken wrote:
I see it a bit differently, Ken. Christian men ought to be a vanguard/light in an unbelieving world that most often treats women as objects to be used for their pleasure. Not always, of course. But we can shine a much-needed light in a dark world by exhibiting self control, respect, faithfulness, joy, and goodness toward one another. We shouldn’t be proving our love for one another in the confines of a church building only, but rather everywhere in our interactions with each other.
What you’re proposing reflects (in my opinion) is a fear and lack of self-control and that’s how it’s likely to be perceived as opposed to being honorable.
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Ken wrote:
Nah. It’s standard “pastoral” rhetoric that all women are potential seductresses out to do a godly man in – particularly single women.
It’s standard “pastoral” rhetoric that all men are potential victims of overwhelming carnal desires to engage in inappropriate behaviour with said seductresses – so overwhelming, that this behaviour can’t be stopped and is hardly the man’s fault.
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@ gus:
Sounds like Augustine’s thoughts on women. We shouldn’t generalize that all pastors adhere to this thinking, but some certainly do 🙁
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Ken wrote:
Ken,
You’re not understanding my comments. Please re-read them.
The unbelieving world doesn’t think the worst, it’s the Christian world of finger pointers that does. In the working world it’s common to have a male buyer and a female VP Sales working behind closed doors negotiating a major business deal.
Unbelievers are very accepting of women in the workplace, and they have had years of business training on sexual harassment. For the most part they treat women as equals, not insultingly as Christian men sometimes do.
Let me give this another try:
Some Christian men would leave the door of their office open slightly if they had an attractive 20-year-old woman meeting with them. But those same men would close the door if the woman was very high ranking, for example, Shirley Dobson or the late Bill Bright’s wife, Vonette.
Why? Because they wouldn’t dare insult Shirley or Vonette. A door left ajar says one thing to good women: “I don’t trust you.” It’s a slap in the face.
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Bridget wrote:
I was exaggerating, of course, and turning the standard fundy argument on its head – what came out was quite recognizably a frequently heard argument.
WRT Augustine – whatever his other accomplishments, he is terrible on women. But then again, the early church made him their authority on nearly everything, also on women. That a self-confessed habitual fornicator will give you a picture of women that’s not very flattering seems normal to me. If you make prostitutes your authority on the topic of men, the picture you will get won’t be pretty either, but as in the case with Augustine, incomplete and biased.
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WHAT DID THE FIRST CHRISTIANS BELIEVE?
THE CHURCH OF CHRIST HAD ITS BEGINNING ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST 33 A.D.. WHAT BELIEFS AND ACTIONS DID THE THREE THOUSAND CONVERTS TO CHRIST HAVE IN COMMON? DID GOD APPROVE OF EVOLVING BELIEFS, DIFFERENT REQUIREMENTS FOR SALVATION? IF THAT WERE TRUE, THEN WOULD IT NOT BE FOUND IN THE NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES?
Acts 2:41 So then, those who received his word were baptized; and there were added about three thousand souls. Acts 2:47….And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
All three thousand believed the apostle Peter’s message and were baptized in water. Then they were added to the Lord’s church by the Lord Himself. The Lord did not add the unsaved to His church. They had to believe and be baptized in water prior to being added to the body of Christ.
1. Acts 2:22 Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—
All three thousand believed Jesus was a miracle worker.
2. Acts 2:31-32 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
All three thousand believed in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
3. Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
All three thousand believed that Jesus was Lord and Christ.
4. Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
All three thousand repented in order to have sins forgiven. (repentance meant that they made the commitment to turn from their unbelief and sinful lifestyle and turn toward God).
All three thousand were baptized in water in order to have their sins forgiven.
All three thousand received the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit after they believed, repented, and were baptized in water.
5. Acts 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, “Be saved from this perverse generation!”
All three thousand were saved after they believed Peter’s message: They believed, repented, confessed, and were baptized in water. (Mark 16:16, John 3:16, Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38, Romans 10:9-10, Acts 8:35-38) THEN THEY WERE ADDED TO THE LORD’S CHURCH! (Acts 2:47)
WHAT THINGS DID PETER NOT PREACH AND WHAT THINGS DID THE THREE THOUSAND NOT BELIEVE.
1.Peter did not preach that men were saved by grace alone.
2.Peter did not preach that men were saved by faith only
3.Peter did not preach that God had selected a few to be saved and that all others would go to hell.
4. Peter did not preach that water baptism was not essential to salvation.
5. Peter did not preach that Jesus was just one of many Saviors.
6. Peter did not preach that once you were saved, that you could continue in a sinful lifestyle and still be saved.
7. Peter did not preach that God did not have the power to give us an inerrant translation of the Scriptures.
8. Peter did not preach that God would provide hundreds or thousands of different Christian denominations, and that they would teach different ways of being saved.
9. Peter did NOT preach that you had to speak in tongues as evidence that you were saved.
AS BELIEVERS IN CHRIST, MEN SHOULD USE THE BIBLE AS THEIR GUIDE FOR SALVATION. Looking to man-made creed books, Bible commentaries, denominational statements of faith, and church catechisms, is looking in all the wrong places for the absolute truth!
YOU ARE INVITED TO FOLLOW MY BLOG. http://steve-finnell.blogspot.com
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@ Janey:
We don’t seem to be talking about the same thing. I’m talking about practical wisdom to avoid bringing the church into disrepute. Is it wise for an engaged couple to go on holiday alone together before they get married, that sort of thing. Trusting them as godly people has to be balanced with lead us not into temptation.
You wrote ““avoiding the appearance of evil” is something that is merely a crazy-making term that is used to exclude women, belittle women, and treat us as if we are lower than men are” which has got nothing to do with what I’m getting at. Avoiding a situation that could lead to adultery, for example, is far from putting a woman down, it’s treating her and her spouse with respect. I’ve heard pastors who have had to deal with the aftermath of this very thing where no such sin was ever intended.
I suppose I simply can’t relate to what seems to me to be hyper-sensitivity to being ‘put down’ or if you like seeing things that aren’t there. To the extent I have seen the avoidence of the appearance of evil in churches I have been in, no-one has made a remote connection to putting anybody down.
I agree that we can’t go around constantly worrying what others think, but it can be just as bad if we have to worry about every word we say in case it is misunderstood.
So, are talking about the same thing? Doesn’t otherwise seem to be much disagreement!
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Ken wrote:
This is a very difficult thing to put into practice. Jesus hung around with prostitutes and other people of ill repute. As he did so, His ministry was called into question. Didn’t Jesus do a lot of things that called His ministry into question?
Your one example of an engaged couple traveling together is almost a moot point in today’s society. Only within a small segment of Vision Forum like legalism would such an act be given more than a yawn. Most people do not give a hoot and do not spend time dreaming about other people who may, or may not, be sinning.
You cannot apply this sort of thing broadly. For example, some groups say women should not wear pants. Other would object to someone drinking a glass of wine. Then some of us might object to a pastor building a 16,000 square foot abode.
I believe this has something to do with personal kindness. For example, we had a family member who was an alcoholic and achieved sobriety. So, when we went out to dinner with him, I would not have my customary glass of wine.
However, I am sure that at any given moment, there is an alcoholic somewhere wandering around a large restaurant. There is also probably someone who thinks I should not wear pants, have shorter hair, etc. And then there are those who are offended because I do not believe in a young earth. So what do I do? Wear a wig, a long dress, carry AIG material etc. to make them all feel better?
You have a terrible task set before you. How do you do everything in such a manner not to cause anyone to stumble?
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Steve Finnell wrote:
LOL ! ! !
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TedS. wrote:
Sometimes I think that you must be my twin separated from birth. I thought the same thing.
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Steve Finnell wrote:
… thus are denominations formed.
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You’re invited to follow my blog as well, btw. Which is so brilliant etc etc etc.
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Which reminds me – I really should finish that post I’ve been “working on” for the last fortnight.
As Proverbs 24 puts it:
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
LOL.
Yeah, then there’ll be something for us to follow 😉
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@ Estelle:
Well, there is stuff to follow, including a half-finished series on “middle-class church”. It’s the “half” bit that’s the current problem…
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dee wrote:
You become a hermit. 🙂
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dee wrote:
I have not read through all the posts since I’ve been on this blog a couple days ago, so I’ve not read everything Ken has to say.
But. If he’s feeding into gender stereotypes and sexual assumptions (and I’m sorry to be a broken record, because I know this is one of several subjects I bring up from time to time on this blog, but it bothers me), is that it hurts unmarried people.
There really is a strain of thought among evangelicals, fundamentalists, and Baptists (and in wider society) that…
-People cannot control themselves sexually
-Single women are sexually loose
Hence, in Christian circles, in some dating and marriage advice books and blogs and in some sermons, men (especially married ones) are told basically to avoid single women. This cuts single women off from fellowship in the wider Christian community, which is very, very bad. It leaves them lonely, without support, and is just plain offensive, rude, and insulting.
Some single women have excellent morals and do not sleep around and would never considering sleeping with a married man.
Christian women get the message that all men are utterly obsessed with sex, it’s all they care about, so you can never trust men. We also get the message that most men are potential sex offenders who will assault you if you are female, so don’t be left alone.
When the genders are taught to suspect one another in this manner, and they are in fact are taught this way in some segments of Christianity, males and females tend to not get together and go on dates. Which means you have a lot of Christians who are staying single into middle age – not because they want to.
There are blogs, (yes, entire blogs) that discuss how Christian relationship books such as “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” (and others) hindered a lot of Christians, male and female, from developing normal dating lives and thus hampered them from marrying at all or in a timely fashion
Most Christians do not believe in “courtship,” and for those of us over the age of 30, 40, or older it’s a ridiculous concept (and some of our parents are dead, so they cannot play courtship maker).
If Ken is advocating any of these ideas -narrow gender roles, courtship, the idea that singles are promiscuous, men are only interested in sex and cannot resist it, etc, he is contributing to the protracted singleness of Christians who desire marriage.
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Ken wrote:
I disagree with your contextual interpretation of 1Thess. 5:22.
It is in the middle of the verses asking us to allow prophesy, and the workings of the Holy Spirit but testing those signs of the Holy Spirit. The word for appearance is a noun, not a verb.
Your interpretaion = Do not appear to be doing evil. This interpretation leads to legalism. Almost everything we do has a pagan origin, even wedding rings and pink for girls and blue for boys. There is no end to legalism, that is why it is too difficult to pinpoint how to practice this interpretation.
My interpretaion = Do not get involved with what HAS appeared on the scene like a new teaching or sign or wonder. Test it first to see whether it is good or bad. Going back farther in the chapter we get a clue of what could be one bad teaching, the teaching of peace and safety so let’s just think like those who party all the time rather than paying attention.
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Ken wrote:
My post above to Dee commenting on your views is currently sitting in moderation, but I would encourage you to read it (it’s about two or three posts above this one, when and if it is approved to appear on this blog).
Your views don’t make any sense.
Strains of Christians (in evangelical, Baptist, and Fundamentalist and Neo Reformed circles) do in fact support the notion that women are minxes, they are inherently loose, that their mere presence in the room can tempt a man.
I explained this more fully in my post above that is sitting in moderation, but your support of this view, and the view itself, cuts un-married women off from support in the church, because we single adult women are shunned and avoided as a result, because everyone, but especially married couples, view single adult females with suspicion.
Your comment –
“That and putting yourself where you might actually be tempted is what needs avoiding,”
What makes you assume that every single woman would jump at the opportunity to bed the guy they are alone with?
It takes a huge ego to assume that just because you find the female attractive that she must find you equally desirable and attractive and would so be willing to instantly fall into bed with you.
You are also assuming the women in question, that her morals, are just as bad as yours, which is insulting if her sexual ethics are impeccable.
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Ken wrote:
No, I actually see this sort of thinking crop up in a lot of Christian material about dating, marriage, and how the genders are different.
I’m not the only one. I’ve been to other blogs by people who have noticed it too.
Christians behave as though all men are rapists.
If I were a Christian man who does not hate women, who does not condone rape, and would not ever even consider using force on women, I would find these views deeply insulting, but they are there in gender complementarian teachings among Baptists, evangelicals, Neo Reformed, and Baptists.
Gender complementarians don’t usually blurt out directly “all men are rapists!” and “all single women are temptresses!” but those thoughts never the less under-gird a lot of their teachings and dating advice to Christians.
It’s very common in Christian publications, sermons, and TV shows, to uphold the gender stereotypes that men are interested in sex and women are not (at least, it is said or assumed that married women are not interested in sex).
I grew up reading a lot of Christian magazines, books, and watching Christian television programming, about life in general, some of these shows or books were about dating in particular.
In the past few years, I’ve read books by Christians about Christian views on singleness.
Conservative Christians, by the way, are so alarmed by secular feminism, which they assume teaches that there are zero differences between the genders, that Christians go the other extreme and erect very narrow gender role views, and assume that men and women are polar opposites, all the time, on every trait, which is just as bad.
Anyway, one assumption that is brought up in Christian books and blogs about dating and how men differ from women -and even teen-aged Christian females are told this in books and blogs by Christians- is that all men (and teen boys) want all the time is sex, sex, sex, and more sex. And you know what else males want, according to Christians? Sex.
I just watched a Christian show the other day about marriage.
On that show, the Christian hosts, many of whom are marriage counselors, dragged up the old gender role stereotype chestnuts, including:
“Women, men want respect. You wanna know one way you can show your husband respect? Sex. Have sex with him.”
Evangelical, fundamentalist, neo Reformed (from what I’ve seen the last few years online from them), and Baptist attitudes are that all men are supposedly visually oriented and want non stop sex…
So, women are instructed by Christian writers and preachers, do not be left alone with a Christian man, do not wear “revealing” clothing, etc.
The underlying assumption is that Christian men cannot or will not control their sexual urges and will rape yo, the woman, if you are left alone with them, or they will sweet-talk-manipulate a female into sex.
Hence, group dating is encouraged in Christian books on relationships, don’t- be- left- alone- with- a- man type thinking is encouraged.
Even more baffling is that I’ve seen this same advice handed out to adult singles in blogs and magazine articles, and I mean adults who are over the age of 30. Adult singles are treated by Christian dating book authors as though they are teenagers.
Not that adult singles are usually discussed in Christian circles often, but when they are, we get the advice that men are sex obsessed monsters whom you cannot trust.
It is said that a man cannot help himself if he sees a woman in shapely figure wearing a nice dress.
As I’ve said before, there are Christian dating books that tell adult, single Christian males, who wish to date and marry, not to so much as meet a single woman alone for coffee, because such an encounter will end in sex. It’s ridiculous, and that sort of attitude is insulting to both genders.
So it’s not just feminists who think every guy on the planet is a rapist, but some evangelicals and other Christians, too – Christians from certain denominations train the women to think of men in this way.
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As a follow up to my last post:
I have a question for the gender complementarians.
This is rhetorical because I don’t expect a serious response from any of them.
Supposing I am wearing a mini-skirt and high heels around a married man, and I’m all alone with him, and remember, I am an un-married woman.
Then what?
These gender complementarians seem to suggest that, by golly, the married guy will in fact rape me, he cannot help himself if he feels desire, and it won’t be his fault if that attack happens, because gosh durn it…
I was wearing a mini skirt, and we were all alone, and let’s face it, I am single, which is what, more tempting to a married guy prone to cheat than an equally attractive married women alone with him in a mini skirt and heels?
Or, maybe the assumption is that the married man won’t take me by force, but because I, the single woman, have no scruples or any will power, I will instantly cave in, should Married Man, in a moment of weakness, make a pass at me.
What if the Married Man in this example is missing all his teeth, hasn’t bathed in seven months, has three legs, an ear growing where his nose should be, and weighs 765 pounds?
The other assumption by gender complementarians is that I would still eagerly climb into bed with a married man I find physically repulsive if he would just only make a pass at me. Because I have no standards or not taste or am really, really desperate.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
I should have said: something more to follow. Rereading what I wrote earlier seems a bit harsh where I was trying to be lighthearted.
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@ Estelle: No, I thought you meant it humorously! No offence perceived or taken. 🙂
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@ Ken:
Ken, I’m not against what you are saying, but look at church culture. If a woman, single women esp., wants to do something with her giftings – say, start fundraising for adoptions for Christians a church, or start an Alpha group or get on the summer sermon line-up, etc. (all things women have done in churches), then she usually needs to meet with the pastoral staff and work to get things done, ball rolling, etc.
When pastor’s and pastoral staff say they can’t meet with a woman alone, then making the meeting work is multitudinally more difficult. Does the pastor’s wife drive in from home to sit in on the meeting? Does the secretary stop her work to come sit? Does the pastor or staffer have as much time to leave his building and go to a coffee shop (would that meeting have to also include driving time?). Do they tell the woman just to meet with the office staff and she can “pass on” the message? It would add to the hassle, so less meetings, and less time at the actual meeting would result, or the right people would not be involved to make these things happen. This means it would be less likely for women to get their idea/plan off the ground, the plan would be given a lower priority when many ideas/plans are competing in a larger church.
Add this up over the years, and certain women, with gifts are just dropped from using them because of some idea of “appearances”. I go back to this again and again, and it is radically counter cultural, but I think we need more celibates in leadership in the churches. The early church had no problem with women leaders until the structure changed about 200 A.D. But, long after the church became more “Romanized” celibates remained in charge. During that time women had phenomenal roles in the early (pre-Great Schism) church. I won’t boar you with who and what, but women were leaders in making hospitals for the sick and rejected in cities. They were the ones who organized orphan care (and had Christian families take the orphan to their homes). We tend to think the early church was all Middle-class married couples with kids, but it largely wasn’t. It was single men and mostly women. They dedicated their lives to the church, raised abandoned kids while serving others. Eventually they organized into communities and gave rise to Abby’s and Convents.
If we are soooo concerned with appearances then the church must hire a senior man and a senior woman pastor – each with 50 % of the budget and 50% of the deciding vote. Then, women could go to her to get their ideas in and men could go to him. They (via their budgets) would each have to financially help with kid’s ministry. This would allow everyone to have their ideas heard and responded to. If the church isn’t large enough, then only a celibate pastor of either gender should be hired, or a pastor who can meet with women as well as men. If a man is scared of himself in this situation, he isn’t fit to lead a church. Better he go an a spiritual leave and pray for that issue than stay in his current position and oppress (unintentionally) half the church. Or, set up a committee/board of 50/50 men/women who make all the decisions about church life (no more all male-elder boards) and make them the true leaders/decision makers (as the – non-sexist – Mennonites do).
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You know, it really isn’t all that hard to avoid the appearance of evil and yet use gifted women.
The most cautious preacher I ever had about this matter had one simple policy: His office door was always open except for private counseling. And his secretary’s desk was right outside of it. He did not do private counseling alone with women unless his wife was present, but in all these matters such as starting new ministries, etc, it was never a problem. Only in counseling was the door closed.
So he could meet or be alone with women without ever really being in a position anyone could consider compromising.
Actually, he kept the door open when meeting with men about anything other than private counseling also. No secrets when it came to church work.
I found it refreshing that he both took seriously the hidden traps Satan can lay for us all without making a big deal out of it. Worked quite well.
I can’t see where it should bother anyone unless they had a hidden agenda.
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Daisy–I think the comps would just figure we are all, married and single, male and female, human. Sometimes we just do incredibly dumb things that we never thought we would do. So why place ourselves in a place of temptation?
But honestly, I don’t think most comps have all that much trouble with single women around married men alone unless the single woman is just by golly determined to be alone with the guy.
Then that does and should raise a red flag.
In the scenario you described, why would a single woman in a mini skirt and heels (not that all guys find that attractive) seek to be alone with a married man anyway? I would think if it just happened by accident both would prefer to end the situation quickly, no harm no foul. If it were not by accident, yeah, it does lend to the question who instigated it and why?
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Daisy wrote:
No, you have that wrong. Married or single, it’s always the man’s fault. Mark Driscoll addressed a church discipline situation involving a single man and single women having consensual sex. According to Driscoll, it doesn’t make any difference who may have initiated the sexual relationship. The man is assigned complete responsibility for controlling the relationship and preventing the sexual activity. The woman was given a pass and not disciplined. In other words, the man was held accountable and at fault for not preventing the woman’s actions. His logic gives me a headache, but it seems to be in accord with complementarian thinking. Egalitarians, on the other hand, may possibly view the sexual activity as having 50-50 responsibility because it was consensual.
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Val wrote:
That’s the most reasonable solution I’ve heard! If comps believe women should only teach women, give them the same privileged positions and let them get some jobs done in the areas that provide strong role models for women. I’ll second that motion anytime!!
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There is a simple solution for the pastors. It is called glass. Lots of glass. In fact, we have included modification of offices as a part of a security plan for churches, because it can be bullet resistant and still allow every one to see what is going on on the other side.
When I was a college professor, and some of the undergraduate women would sit so I could see where their underwear should have been, my office had a large window, from which anyone sitting or standing outside (in the heavily trafficked hallway) could see everything going on. As earlier a professor had been accused, falsely he claimed, of trading sex for a grade, the solution by the department was open doors until the windows were installed. No curtains allowed.
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@ Ken:
Regarding women as so subservient that a woman cannot be held responsible for sin might well be in line with Driscollian gender politics, though of course it is not in line with scribsher.
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@ An Attorney:
The church I worked at 30 years ago had 18″ wide glass panels next to every door. If you’re spending money on a church complex you’d be highly advised to cut some of the stage extravaganza monies and put in glass panels next to every door in the church that goes into a usable room. The children will be safer for it too!
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@ Ken:
Well, we really don’t know if the pass was because she was female or because she was connected to a VIP. Could be either . . .
Wrong to come down on only one party no matter what way you look at it.
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OK, here you go. This ought to stir up the discussion far into the night.
I don’t know what world some of you live in, but it does not remotely resemble the world that I live in. Two things: We live in a sex-saturated society. Dear goodness, one of the first things they taught us in nurses training, before they ever let us onto the floors, was how to deal with “dirty old men” patients. And sure, that is a caricature, but you get the picture. Sex-seeking behavior is acceptable in our culture, and lots of people do it, appropriately or not, some half-heartedly, but the idea that it is not prevalent? Folks, it is.
And also, ask yourself why your doctor always has someone in the room with him, even if you are going to leave your clothes on. Why does he do that? Does he think that he himself is a rampaging sex maniac? Does he think that you are so desirable that he cannot keep his hands off you? Does he think that you want him in every way possible and he cannot deal with the situation? Or does he want (a) to avoid any possible and unforeseen unpleasantness, (b) want to protect himself from possible false accusation whether of a sexual or medical nature and ( c) is he taking the advice of his malpractice insurance company in doing this? And you know who might accuse him of impropriety, among others? A disgruntled employee who did not get a raise. As in…Doc sure took a long time in there alone with you-know-who, etc, etc. I did not make any of this up. And I got that disgruntled employee bit directly from my malpractice insurance carrier. It is called risk management, and they used to give us 5% off the yearly premium if we attended the risk management conferences in which they taught this stuff. Did you hear me? A profit making insurance company was willing to bet 5% of premiums that in the long run that bet would save them money–money for not having to defend Doc in court. And all that on risk management behaviors. This did not have anything to do with how many lab tests you ordered, it had to do with how to deal with human beings, including patients and employees and anybody else who walked around live and still breathing air.
So, the pastor or the whoever should place himself at risk to keep from hurting some folks feelings? Why would he do that? More to the point, special care should be taken with any person who insisted that he do that. They have some agenda, and until that agenda is out in the open, that person is potentially a source of a problem. Why would anybody want to do that to a pastor?
I will say one other thing and hush. For crying out loud, why on earth would anyone put themselves forth as above temptation? Or expect that other people are above temptation? For some it is mostly sex, for some it is money, for some it is the overwhelming desire to destroy other people’s lives, some folks want to get even for real or supposed grievances or slights, and for some it is something else, the list of possible reasons goes on and on. And that is just normal humans. Any idea that humans, you or me or anybody, is above temptation is ridiculous. I see nothing in humanity or in scripture that would indicate that people achieve that level of sanctity this side of eternity.
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Ken wrote:
Did you ever consider the possibility that young woman came from a family of influence and that may have been a factor in this event? Sometimes it has nothing to do with theology and everything to do with politics.
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Nancy, you make some very good, logical points but the ones involving physicians is a great deal different than a pastoral/laity situation. The very nature of visits to a physician involves the physical aspect. That’s why it’s only good common sense and good practice to have another individual present. It’s for his/her protection against accusations that will affect his/her professional standing and reputation.
A pastor often deals with an individual who is vulnerable due to a highly emotional, stressful situation. For that reason, I strongly advise both male-male, and female-female counseling sessions.
I was sexually abused by a dentist at about the age of 10. That was prior to the current practice of having an assistant present. I never told anyone until recently when my current dentist looked compassionately at me when I had a very difficult time reclining in the chair for any length of time and often bolted out at the first available chance. Physical abuse often causes hyper-vigilance that people don’t understand.
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@ Nancy: As someone who was sexually harassed and grabbed by a doctor who was *very* practiced at such moves (I only saw him once; this was in the mid-80s and nobody else was present in the examining room), I am very grateful for the changes in laws and mandated reporting. People abuse positions of power in order to sexually harass patients and employees, and this guy was a pro at it. (I came out to the appointment desk in tears, saying that I never wanted to see this guy again, and the secretaries looked like they’d heard it all before…)
As for “dirty old men,” I think they’ve always been with us, Nancy.
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@ Nancy: Doesn’t part of the Hippocratic oath read “first, do no harm”?
It would be nice if clergy took that to heart as well.
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V and n:
It is so difficult to hear reports of abuse by medical personnel or pastors or whomever. I am really sorry for what happened to you two. I have never been abused or harassed as a patient, but I have surely had to deal ummm forthrightly with my share of bad boys on the job–back in the day, of course.
I never had any trouble with the professionally religious, but then I tend to avoid them like the plague.
As to the Hippocratic Oath, it is great fun to read it. It talks about financing a medical education, sexual behavior, avoiding gossip–interesting stuff. My class at my alma mater was the last one at that school to use that oath–at least they told us that at the time. Medical ethical behavior is determined by the law of the land, the regulations of the medical licensing board, the opinions and advice of ones specialty “colleges,” the ethics committees of the hospitals and institutions where one has privileges, and maybe something else by now–I have been retired for a while. But the Hippocratic Oath was a ritual for historical purposes only, at least by my time. You ought to check it out on Wikipedia. I do swear that I never cut for stone.
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@ Nancy: That wasn’t the only bad experience I had when I was younger, but it certainly was the most egregious.
Guess I’m one of the many lay people who was under the imrpession that “First, do no harm” was/is one of the most important principles. ah well – live and learn!
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Haven’t had time to read any and all posts since last here.
Nancy wrote:
Yes, we live in a sex saturated society, but it’s baloney that every one acts on sexual urges all the time, or that people are incapable of controlling their behavior…
Did you know that one excuse abusive men use is that they “just lost control” and “couldn’t help” but beat their wives, and that is bogus? They very well can control their actions, but they choose not to.
(See the book Why Does He Do That?, by Lundy Bancroft, who has been counseling abusive husbands and boyfriends for over 15 years.)
Christians need to stop maintaining these stereotypes that all single women are harlots and all men are sex- seeking weirdos.
The Bible talks about not bearing false witness against your neighbor, and in my book, acting like I, who am unmarried, but who am a virgin past age 40, due to waiting until marriage (I was engaged for several years and had plenty opportunity to have sex had I wanted), it’s a very grave insult.
The Bible says that one reason of several for the existence of the church is to provide community and support for one another.
How is an unmarried Christian woman supposed to get support if most of the church treats single women like potential man-stealers?
The single men are told to stay away from us single ladies because we might fornicate, the married ladies view single women as a threat, and the married guys assume we single ladies want in their pants and will do so at every opportunity.
It’s more than “hurt feelings.” It’s cutting people off from community.
Where in the Bible does it say that a preacher, or any male, should never meet alone with an unmarried woman?
Jesus met alone with the woman at the well, and he also met with prostitutes.
The Pharisees wagging their tongues in disbelief that a rabbi (Jesus) would meet with women of ill repute did not stop Jesus from meeting and talking to them.
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Nancy wrote:
I’m over 40 years old and still a virgin, despite having been engaged for several years and having spent a lot of time alone with my ex at his various apartments.
We never had sex during all the years we were a couple, because I told him I was waiting until marriage to have sex.
I’ve had men “hit” on me before. I did not accept their offers.
Why are you assuming that if a man made a pass at me, I’d fall for it?
Some of us really are “above temptation” in some areas of life.
Don’t assume because you can’t picture yourself resisting sex all of us are like that.
It’s like sex obsessed preacher Mark Driscoll assuming all males are just as sex obsessed as he is, or just as consumed with being a man’s man as he is, and which to him means watching cage fighting and drinking beer.
Nancy said,
What on does that mean?
There are times when an unmarried woman may seek or need counsel about a very personal problem, does not want every one in the church to know, and wants to see the preacher alone to discuss whatever that problem is. There is nothing underhanded or devious about such a scenario.
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Also, as I said on another thread, another reason Christians adhering to these views that all unmarried people are sex fiends has other ramifications, such as-
Unmarried men are barred from serving as Sunday school teachers, preachers, etc, even ones who were previously married, but who are now single due to death of wife or divorce.
Churches refuse to hire unmarried people or even permit them to act as teachers.
Some of these single men are not so much as permitted to even teach singles classes at churches (the churches get married people to do this).
I’ve read blogs, books, and articles about people, usually men, but occasionally women, who testify about how their denomination or particular church discriminated against them due to the sheer fact they are single, with the particular stereotype at play being that single people have unbridled sexual appetites (so they cannot be trusted around teens, kids, married people).
I provided links to various articles in one thread on this blog about three or four days ago with such testimonies and links to similar articles.
This particular prejudice pops up often enough it has been discussed on various church sites I’ve visited, or books I’ve seen.
Some of the same stereotypes play out in other nations. This, for example, is from Britain:
Isolated: single Christians feel unsupported by family-focused churches
source, independent.co.uk
The survey found that older people were more keenly aware of their single status and that women not in a steady relationship were treated as “threats to couples”. Singles said they often felt more valued outside rather than inside their church.
American sources:
nytimes.com
Unmarried Pastor, Seeking a Job, Sees Bias
Single Adults Why They Stay and Why They Stray
by Dick Purnell
There are other books and blogs which have other examples.
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Daisy wrote:
I think both linda and Nancy have answered this better than I could in a very down to earth way.
I would simply add that the bible warns against immodest dress. You may have no intention at all of sending a ‘message’, but you could be misunderstood as saying ‘here I am boys’ or thought to be after someone. More likely in reality, and here I have Christian men in mind, is that you could cause your brother to stumble by arousing lust.
This does not mean Christian women need to dress like Miss Marple.
I have been misunderstood in this thread as having a low view of women. The real issue is I have a low view of human nature, the flesh in a biblical sense. The bible reveals human nature in it fallenness like no other book, and it’s refreshingly honest in its diagnosis even if we don’t like it.
We are not made sin-proof after conversion, the battle is then against sin, and how some women dress in church can cause real problems for men. Too many feminists, not knowing how men think or the power of sin, just don’t get it.
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@ Ken:
I think both men and women should wear burkas. Because lust. Children too, because pedophiles. Serious Christians accommodate morally weak brothers and sisters. We know they have a tendency not to strengthen their weaknesses and it is not our job to help them do so—that’s between them and God.
Burkas are how we reflect, in our daily lives, the covering mercy God has laid over every one of us sinners.
Plus it would create more jobs, which we need. /s
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@ Ken:
Ken, Wayne Jacobson at “The God Journey” addresses beautifully my disagreement with your tone and perspective:
http://thegodjourney.com/2013/11/08/where-conformity-is-king/
This sermon is well worth the time!
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Ken wrote:
How did Jesus manage to be around prostitutes?
How does “how some women dress in church” become . . . “Too many feminists” . . . ? Why the harping on feminists? I’d love to know what your definition of feminist is.
The problem is lust . . . and considering the high percentage of Christian men (more women these days as well) who entertain pornography, they are training their minds and bodies well before they get to church on Sunday. The problem is not merely the feminist women in church?? (whatever that means to you)
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Bridget wrote:
Ken may harp of feminists because that is what he has been taught to harp on. Many Christian circles exist and gain strength from the (believed) existence of their boogie man. It was one of the methods Hitler used to gain power in Nazi Germany. He found an enemy (the Jews) and he was able to incite devotion this way.
These church circles do the same with feminist.
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Ken wrote:
I am not sure this is a blanket truth. I lived in a culture with huge class ( caste) distinctions, and people of different casts just knew they could never marry. When the converted to Christianity, they knew they couldn’t marry a Hindu. They worked casually with members of the opposite sex that were of lower caste without fear. Their houses were full of lower caste servants of both sexes, and no one in the world gossiped or thought anything of it. If you go back to Europe or even racially divided America, you see well-to-do women living in the same house with many, many men (none of whom were eunuchs) and no one thought of reputations – butlers, cooks, stable boys, chauffeurs, guards, etc.
But, lets look at men and women of the same social status. If it is true women don’t get men, then it would follow men don’t get women. And, what gets many women annoyed is that men, who can’t control their urges despite claiming to be transformed by the Holy Spirit, then insist on leading in churches. If men are too weak, as you say, then it is women who should be senior pastors, and make all the final decisions, that way both men and women could come to the church leadership without the senior pastor fearing reputation or temptation. Now, I know everyone will scream ‘sexist’ – But women are just as bad! – but you have said women just can’t understand men, meaning they must be worse than women, otherwise women would understand.
So, using your argument, that feminists don’t understand men’s thoughts or the ‘power of sin’ (which Christ conquered btw), that must mean that women just don’t think that way. Therefore, they would be the choice leaders of a congregation.* Since, they, unlike men would not fear meeting with a man and listening to his ideas. They would not be so tempted by his presence they would too distracted to listen to him.
Or, we could just hire men or women who can work with both genders. And have a respectful relationship with any gender in their congregation who wants to talk to them about church matters, and doesn’t preach, “run-away” or shut women out of leadership when confronted with sexual temptation. A better solution is to go to a monastery for a spiritual weekend of prayer if temptations keep raging. Catholic monasteries, who run these spiritual retreats, will take Protestants at their monasteries, so it is always an option. Also, I am sure a Catholic monk could give some pretty good advice to men on how to live with temptations yet serve Christ and not let temptations master someone.
* (Now, I don’t buy any of this, from the excuse Christian men are ‘under the power of sin’, so strong they can’t overcome it or manage it, and just have a working relationship with women, and so on. Among today’s 20-somethings it is the woman who are more into ‘Friends with Benefits’ then the men -at least according to one article- so who knows what direction society will go as more women begin to make as much, or more, than men and become more career focused and less relationship focused, as men begin to make less, which is beginning in the twenties generation, women will have less and less incentive to be in a relationship with men, and many characteristically “male” or “female” sexual responses will begin to disappear. In Viking Europe, where women were the leaders, their sexual patterns (both genders) were drastically different than the southern, Roman-influenced, patriarchal societies.
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Ken wrote:
Here is the problem that I have with this line of thinking. First, to reassure you, I dress in really cute clothes that few people would consider immodest within a broad Christian culture.
But, big but, if the church is truly doing its job, the church will be filled with people who do not know Christ, have not heard of dressing modestly, etc. In fact, each day we should be surrounded by people who do not follow our given standards.So, men are just going to have to cope with this since we should be living in our culture. Christian men should just give up going to the beach as well.
Secondly, how does a woman deal with the CJMahaney’s of the world who decided that women cannot wear their purses strung across the front of their chests because it might outline their breasts (True story). And what about women who are heavily endowed? Do you know how hard it is for them to find clothes that will not show that part of their body? Should they get surgery to prevent their brothers from experiencing lust?
I believe the train has left the station and that it is not up to Christian women to change the culture. We must first let jesus change hearts.
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Agreed, Dee.
My comments were addressed to protecting reputations. An individual Christian may desire pastoral counsel (male pastor, female counselee or female pastor, male counselee) all they want, but the smart pastor simply will….not….put….him/herself in that position.
And when you get right down to it, it does send up red flags if the counselee will not see a same gender counselor or allow a person of the counselee’s gender in the room.
And seriously, if the pastor calls in his wife and she spreads what is said to the whole church, that is a much bigger problem.
Yep, glass, open doors, multiple people present, the whole nine yards.
I’m old, overweight, and married but my pastors that were male while I’m old, overweight, and married wouldn’t have considered one on one counseling or discussion behind closed doors no glass.
I appreciate their firm protection of both their and my reputation.
And again, would find them perfectly justified in running screaming from me if I were to try to insist on it.
It isn’t that “single women are harlots.” It IS that believers still have to use some common sense.
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Ken wrote:
You still have to go to Walmart or Sears or a local restaurant or…or…
We live in a sex-saturated society and imposing stringent rules and codes for church will just not cut it in day-to-day living. And we should remember that Jesus said the origin of thoughts (evil/lust/anger, etc.) is in the heart of the one who experiences or entertains them.
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@ linda: err, how about psychotherapists? Male therapists regularly see female patients, and vice versa.
I think that glass (as someone else suggested upthread) is far better than total avoidance, as you propose. For some people, yes, avoidance may well be a good thing, but as a rule? I think it goes too far. (Just my opinion, though…)
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@ linda: I would be far less concerned about my “reputation” being “protected” than about ethics (or violations of them) and professional conduct.
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@ linda:
What if there is no same gender person available?
It’s more than that, though.
It is false to assume that any and every unmarried woman is a temptress who will try to get into the pants of a married man.
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(sorry again I have not read every post since I was last here, or even from before)
@ Ken:
I am a visually-oriented female.
So, should all Christian men and other men wear head to toe baggy, burlap sacks on my account?
How about I do what I’ve been doing all along and take responsibility for my actions, reactions, and thought life? And men should do the same concerning women?
You said,
“I would simply add that the bible warns against immodest dress.”
I’m not so sure it does. I’ve read other people say that the modesty Paul referred to had nothing to do with sexuality but was talking about not flaunting wealth (such as wearing a lot of jewelry), and displaying humility.
Also, nobody agrees on what “modest” dress is.
I’ve had men lust after me when I was in baggy, old cut off jean shorts, a baggy t shirt, no make up, and my hair up in a pony tail, not a look I or I would think most people would consider sexy, but some men were still turned on anyhow.
You said,
“and how some women dress in church can cause real problems for men. Too many feminists, not knowing how men think or the power of sin, just don’t get it.”
That is a lot of bunk. It’s shifting responsibility from men to women.
It’s also objectifying women, by making them out to be nothing but body parts and making them out to be nothing more than their sexuality, which is, ironically, exactly what feminists to and secular culture does too.
Also, I don’t consider myself a feminist.
As someone above pointed out, a lot of Christian men are actively seeking out porn to view, they are looking it up online and buying magazines. That is not my fault, or the fault of any Christian woman.
From a Christian site (about porn use among Christians):
Who’s A Porn Slave? Hint: It’s Someone You Know
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Daisy wrote:
We haven’t been talking about just unmarried women here. We’ve been talking about women in general, married and unmarried. For that matter, the precautions would be wise for certain professions no matter what the sex of the professional is, if the patient/counselee is the opposite sex. It simply helps avoid any false accusations or attempts of inappropriate actions on anyone’s part.
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(My post to Ken right above this one is in moderation, just to let folks know)
dee wrote:
There was a similar story to that in a book I read about Christian singles.
The authors mentioned the same scenario, but it was by college guys against college girls. Some guys at a Christian college went to the young ladies and told them how they carried their books or put their purses across their chests emphasized their chests, and they asked the ladies to carry their books/purses differently.
What about car seat belts? That has the same effect. Should Christian women not wear seat belts if there may be any Christian males around, and risk getting killed in an auto accident?
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@ Bridget:
But the notion of being a saucy little minx with no sexual boundaries generally falls more heavily on UN-married women (single women), not married ones.
Nowhere does the Bible teach that men cannot or should not be alone with single women, and at that, because single women will actively try to tempt the man, or because men lack self control.
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(My internet connection keeps cutting in and out, making it difficult to post this evening.)
Bridget wrote:
(P.S.) What exactly do you think I am going to do if left alone with a man, married or single?
The assumption is still at play there, that men and women cannot be “just friends,” or that sex will always be the result if a man and a woman (especially if the woman in question is single) are alone in a room together because (and I find this very insulting), one or both are immoral, lack restraint, have loose sexual ethics.
May I remind every here again for the umpteenth time I’ve been around married and single men before (and an ex fiance) and am still a virgin at age 40+?.
I was raised in a Christian home and became a Christian at a young age, and I took the faith seriously, including teachings about sex being for marriage only.
You have another participant on this blog, a male, who admits to being a virgin at age 50+, and I’ve met several other virgins (most of whom are Christians) in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, on various other Christian blogs and sites.
I an not naive, but I also don’t assume – if I see a man and a woman leave a room together – that they were doing the nasty.
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@ Daisy: the issue, imo, is about voluntary abstinence not virginity.
ask the many, MANY women whose 1st sexual experiences were NOT exactly optimal…
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@ Daisy: in other words, we can all presumably make choices. virginity or lack of it has nothing to do with that!
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@ numo:
I am talking about deliberate sexual choices.
I am not discussing sexual abuse victims.
The fact is a lot of people are not, contrary to biblical instructions, choosing to wait until marriage to have sex.
Which is not to say it’s 100%, because, again, there are those of us who are still virgins as we have not married yet.
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@ Daisy: Err, I was NOT talking about victims of sexual abuse.
Being a virgin when you get married is absolutely no guarantee that the angels are going to sing and the heavens are going to break open when you 1st have sex. Ask anyone who’s been there – it can be an awkward, hasty, fumbling affair.
Virginity is something that seems to be trades as a commodity by the patriarchalist groups. It’s not something I would personally want to advertise! (not that you are, but I find it sickening that the virginity of women is *still* something that seems to be zealously guarded by men, for their own reasons.)
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dee wrote:
A mostly off-topic long story here, but, Dee, do check out the link– even though the church in question is now irrelevant, back in the day it had EVERYTHING.
Long ago and far away, my Christian friend Bill and I worked at a large office for a very large corporation. He must have weighed close to 300 and I weighed close to 130. No one commented about our weight. A young Christian coworker Paula was heavily endowed. It was impossible not to notice. We didn’t really know her, but she did dress very modestly and seemed nice. Despite this, some men gawked and stared. Both men and women sometimes made rude comments behind her back about her appearance.
Anyhow, the day arrived when the company had us doing touchy-feely-imaging team-building exercises (bordering on witchcraft, it seemed to us). Bill and I respectfully declined to participate on grounds of Christian conscience, and eventually Management agreed. Paula was the only person who joined us on the sidelines, and we had the chance to talk, and get to know her. Turned out she attended an early Multi-site Mega-church called Community Chapel. Bill and I had heard some troubling reports, and attempted to warn her. Especially troubling were the “spiritual connections” parishioners made with others to whom they weren’t married, while “dancing before the Lord” together. Paula reassured us it was a great church with nothing bad going on, God was doing great things, Pastor was a man of God, etc. Well, we’d only heard the tip of the iceberg. It was in fact worse than the new-age stuff our company brought in. In retrospect, she was *safer* in the worldly world of work, amongst leering unchristian men, than she was at “church”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Chapel_and_Bible_Training_Center
(Featured in the book “Churches That Abuse” BTW)
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@ Ken:
No, I think they get it. But as long as men keep telling us by their actions and lack of restraint just what they value then many insecure women will want to compete for the attention.
Back when one of my daughters was only around four years old my husband didn’t think she was old enough to notice where his eyes lingered or what channel on TV was catching his attention. In particular this one evening it was actually the news doing a segment on a strip joint. I told him that if his daughter ever became one of those dancers I had better not hear one negative comment to her about it since he was obviously letting her know what he liked to see.
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__
@ Dave A A
…safety is no longer necessarily defined by close proximity to a church pew.
(how sad)
Sopy
—
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@ Sopwith:
I did a little more reading — several striking similarities between Community Chapel and Marky D’s current Seattle-area mega-church. Also with a certain “Family of Churches” once known as the dearest place on earth! The chapter from Ronald Enroth’s “Churches That Abuse” is online: http://www.ccel.us/churches.ch2.html
Finally, I should have said the church in question is MOSTLY irrelevant. Although it went out of business 25 years ago, *pastor* Donald Lee Barnett appears to still be in business at a smaller and under-the-radar *church* of *Agape*.
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Daisy, you are completely missing my point.
I do not think that because you are single you are out for any opportunity to seduce a man. Nor do I think men are constantly looking for a chance to “do the nasty.”
BUT–all it takes is one woman that man has rebuffed, or one man out to ruin the woman’s reputation, or one disgruntled employee of either of them, or one nosy Nellie always assuming the worst of people plus one incident where something “could” have happened and lives can be destroyed.
But I have to admit this, and please take it with charity: why is it so important to you to be free to be alone with married men?
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@ linda: I have to admit that I’m baffled as to why you are hammering on the single woman-married man thing. if you’ve been burned personally, I’m very sorry… and sympathetic. but your assumptions – at least, they come across that way to me – seem very unfair, and not just toward Daisy.
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I think that if the church would stop pretending that men and women were from different planets and go with the scriptures that tell us are all human and should respect each other as such we would have a lot less problems between us. I know so many non Christian people who have much higher integrity than so many Christians because they were raised without influence of hierarchy among any people groups. I know for one man, my husband, was able to control his ‘conditioned’ objectifying of women only after he was able to agree that women are his equal in creation and “rule.”
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Daisy wrote:
I think the question you need to consider is, “Why would a woman want to be “just friends” with a man? It’s possible that a man may be fulfilling her need for attention or emotional release or even viewed as having utilitarian value (e.g., I can fix your leaky faucet for free), but there is no quid-pro-quo in such a friendship. The woman is simply using the man.
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Joe wrote:
Oh, good grief! 🙁
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Victorious wrote:
Another… OH, GOOD GRIEF!
The assumptions that are made.
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Victorious wrote:
That’s the best you can do? How about an honest answer – if you actually have one!
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Joe wrote:
Another crazy assumption!!! Good grief…will they never end??
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Victorious wrote:
In order to have an honest answer, it is good to start with honest questions, not loaded, assumptionful, accusations against and entire gender based on a foundation prejudice, stereotypes, and years of BAD teaching from male dominated pulpits.
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Victorious, I’m replying to Joe. I don’t know why your name keep coming up as who I’m replying to. Probably operator malfunction. But I don’t know how to fix it.
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Victorious wrote:
I’m still waiting ….. do you have an honest answer to the question?
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@ Joe:
Joe,
Friendship is mutual. Both people are getting something out of it. In this case, it would be the man and the woman. Perhaps its interesting conversation, shared sense of humor, a shared topical interest, etc. I marvel at your mindset that you would announce “there is no quid-pro-quo in such a friendship”.
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Joe wrote:
Joe, of course I have an honest answer to why a woman would want to be friends with a man. For one, the same reason a man wants a friendship with another man! Because of mutual interests; i.e. sports, news, hobbies, etc. Because friendships can increase our understanding of one another whether male or female. Because we respect the other’s outlook on a variety of issues and can learn from the other. Because we’re social beings who care about one another. Because without a variety of types of friends, we grow narrow-minded.
Just a few… good enough for you?
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Mara wrote:
I understood that, Mara, no problem. Could be because our posts were only 1 minute apart.
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Joe wrote:
Stunning, Joe!
Based on this statement, maybe we can make some assumptions about what you think the purposes a female has in life . . .
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@ Bridget: Yep!. in other words, we all have ulterior motives and are part of The Monstrous Regiment of Women. (google that phrase and see what you get…)
[/sarcasm]
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This reiterates or expands upon a few of the points I was making:
How the Sexual Revolution ruined friendship
By Jonathon Van Maren
One of the casualties of the Sexual Revolution, however, is a significant one: Friendship.
It is an irony of Modernia that the secular elites believe that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that mankind has the ability to the change the climate or end poverty, but is incapable of keeping his or her pants on. We can do anything, if we put our minds to it—except, of course, stop ourselves from devolving into an irrational pool of primal passion the moment we are presented with the opportunity for sexual (mis)adventure. That’s because “abstinence,” the Sages of the Sexual Revolution inform us from a wealth of inexperience, is “unrealistic.”
Thus, every friendship is now suspect—cross-gender friendships especially, mind you, but certainly not exclusively. This is not merely my own observation, either. Many of my friends, from every walk of life and varying worldviews, have made the same complaint. Friends, you say, people say knowingly if you’ve begun spending what they consider to be a significant amount of time with someone, Interesting.
… The suggestion that “intimacy” necessarily translates into “sex”—which it certainly does not—is one that is extraordinarily reductionist in its analysis of the human person. The idea that two human beings cannot share a close, personal, and meaningful relationship with each other without any sexual component whatsoever is one that assumes human beings, in all their glorious and messy complexities, cannot be interested in someone else without demanding something—and something physical—from them.
….And what a dreadful, reductionist assumption it is to see people enjoying one another’s company and assume that the only thing they have to offer each other is sexual favors.
Don’t buy the lies carefully marketed by hyper-sexualized pop culture, pornography, and commentators like Dan Savage and his ilk.
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@ Daisy:
The link in my post did not work. Here is the URL/link:
(“How the Sexual Revolution ruined friendship”)
http://www.lifesitenews.com/blog/how-the-sexual-revolution-ruined-friendship
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Joe wrote:
Why are you assuming the only reason a woman would want to be friends with a man has anything to do with sex or sexuality? Because I sure don’t. Obviously – still a virgin past age 40, and I’ve had male friends through my life.
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@ Daisy:
And P.S. the males I was friends with? I did not use them to fix my leaky faucets. But sometimes friends do help each other out.
I was friends with them because we shared similar interests and enjoyed each other’s company.
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@ Daisy: I’m not conviced re. changing social mores altering friendship so drastically – I had male friends in HS and undergrad school. once people start getting married, things change. and there are *always* going to be people who make unfounded assumptions of all sorts, whether about men and women or about friends of the same gender. ’twas ever thus, IMO.
not only that, but until relatively recent decades (post-WWII), young people generally got married fresh out of HS. socializing in the way that became common due to greatly increased college attendance starting in the 50s-early 60s has allowed for more opportunities for male-female friendships, not less.
side note: I am sick of people claiming that everything was loads better circa 1952. it’s simply not true.
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@ numo: not to mention the not-so-subtle subtext: the pill marked women into brazen hussies and scheming minxes, and gay people are without conscience. (which is not true of Dsn Savage, regardless of what the author thinks. he can grate, but equally, he has some good points and I don’t want to write him off – he’s a lapsed Catholic who’s been deeply hurt by the church, for starters…)
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Daisy wrote:
Yes, Daisy I believe you. Are you sure these men weren’t “closet” gays or even heterosexuals who are socially maladjusted and unable to have any relationship with a women other than friendship? My experience tells me churches seem to be magnets for men that are socially inept. Perhaps the answer to Linda’s question – But I have to admit this, and please take it with charity: why is it so important to you to be free to be alone with married men? is that you are actually yearning for a friendship with a man that has a normal relationship with a woman.
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@ Joe: “Socially Maladjusted”? “Closet gays”?
sometimes friends are just friends, and there’s no need to cast aspersions at friendships and the people involved.
I guess you probably identify as “socially well-adjusted”?
sheesh.
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As briefly as possible!
Modest dressing by women in church. You are playing the keyboard at the side of the church, and everytime you look over the keyboard all you can see is shapely hosed legs, and if your eyes wander far enough up, you may eventually see the skirt (for what it’s worth). This is an unnecessary distraction for a man. All the more so if this is in the middle of the communion service.
The idea that men and women are virtually identical in makeup comes from someone who was a liar from the beginning. I’ve noticed the different way of thinking in secular women who take the line ‘we can wear what we like, it’s our right, and you men will just have to deal with it’. They don’t know how men think, even though in church where most men want to subdue lustful thoughts the men themselves don’t intend thinking that way. Men can have a problem with what they see, and it is no good (rightly) complaining of them downloading porn, only to tempt them in church, however unintended. It’s the last place on earth anyone should be drawing attention to themselves.
This is a classic example of mutual submission. Ask the men if what is worn is a distraction, and submit to the answer! The men, on the other hand, need to understand women don’t want to be controlled in what they wear either, should expect men to develop self-control, so sensible give and take on this. Communicate. Talk to rather than at. Respect the different needs. That sort of thing.
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Ken wrote:
You have got to be kidding. What do you want them to wear-a maxi dress and a tent over their shapely top? I think this is becoming ridiculous.
Ken wrote:
So, some idiot who cannot handle a woman’s well tuned ankle gets to be the modesty monitor?
I am becoming confused. Is this a parody? Have mercy on me, it is Monday morning.
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I have an extremely educated opinion that people who have a difficult time redirecting their evil objectifying lusts away from attractively dressed people whether at the grocery store, church or sports events view pornography. On the other hand Ken might have a point. it has been much easier for me not to objectify men in church since they have all started wearing casual clothes to church. I mean ZZ Top had it right about women going crazy for a sharp dressed man ;-/
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S@ Ken:
What are you saying?? A woman can’t possibly appease the individual needs of every man in the congregation. Should the woman at the instrument wear pants then? Is that what you are saying? I worked for the elders of a church. I was asked to wear ONLY dresses or skirts by one of the elders. He felt that was better in this environment. I could do the same job and have the same attitude in pants or dresses/skirts. I deferred to his wishes, though I really didn’t understand ‘why’ he wanted it that way. I would have preferred wearing pants in the winter, trust me. But, honestly, one man likes pants, another man thinks pants show too much figure. Someone else doesn’t want to see your legs in hose and a skirt. Good Grief! Some men have a problem with red fingernail polish. The Burkas now need mittens and combat boots to complete the task!
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Especially through the winter months, when it is dark from about 4pm here in Scotland and less conducive to running outdoors, I frequent the local university gym. Where, perforce, I encounter any number of (broadly speaking) attractive women wearing rather less than purdah. I sometimes cross-train in the swimming pool where they are likely to be wearing less still. On such occasions, I take a certain quiet satisfaction in simply looking the other way and getting on with my own day.
This is not to say I always resist the temptation to look more than once (and somebody once defined lust as “the second look”). Lesley made an interesting comment on that the other day; basically she said she was quite glad that I can still find other women attractive too, because “if you didn’t it’d mean there was something wrong with me“. Now, you have to understand that in context – she wasn’t saying I don’t mind; ogle whoever you want, any more than Jesus did. We men are tasked with controlling ourselves, whatever that means for each of us and whatever it takes. But so are women. And it doesn’t need to be that big a deal.
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Ken wrote:
Every man doesn’t think like you. So who decides what the poor woman has to wear to make everyone happy? Did it ever occur to you that this keyboard player is wearing what she has been asked to wear?
Per my example above, maybe the dresses I was asked to wear was a problem for one of the other six elders. Who should I have then accommodated? Maybe the elders should have a meeting and decide what I should have worn . . . an appropriate uniform to appease all involved. They could then send me an official letter so I didn’t have to worry about loosing my job if I didn’t make one or the other of them upset about my clothing.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nick, It may be a big deal for immature, porn-consuming, strip club visiting, under the influence of beer, boys in men’s bodies.
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Ken wrote:
This is beyond ridiculous. You don’t HAVE to lust after every female you see.
As I’ve already said, I’m a teacher and around 70% of my colleagues are female, many of them married, many of them unmarried. Many are also my friends. They know I’m married, many have met my wife.
And we’re a great school, and most of the teachers enjoy each other’s company, and obviously there is a certain amount of friendly banter involved when working together on projects.
Do I find any of my female colleagues attractive as a person, and also physically attractive? You bet. Do I have to lust after them? Not if I don’t want to.
Would I consider any of them as possible “relationship material” (sorry for the word), if I was single? – Definitely. Would any of them be interested in me if I was single? – I don’t know. But that’s not the point.
Do I work with them? – Yes. Would I let the friendly banter in the team get beyond a certain point? – No. The fact that they all know that I’m married and that I love my wife certainly helps. But even if they didn’t – I like these people’s company, male and female colleagues, and I don’t HAVE to see the females as sex objects to lust after if I don’t want to. And I don’t want to.
If the odd ankle or thigh throws you into turmoil, even veils, burqas, etc. won’t help you, as HUG pointed out above.
The culture around you is certainly more sexualized than it should be, but as experience in other cultures (think islamist countries) shows, covering everything and creating strict borders between the genders does not make the problem of lust better, actually I think it’s just the opposite.
The “forbidden fruit” can turn into an obsession, particularly if you don’t know anyone of the opposite gender as a person, as a colleague, as a friend: Then you only think of them in terms of their gender (actually, I think “gender” is not the correct synonym here, but I don’t want this to get stuck in moderation).
Hope this long rant makes sense.
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Ken wrote:
And if you can realize in your heart things like 99 percent of the women you are allowing yourself to be distracted by are in no way in the same mood as you but just want to ‘fit in’ and look nice, and another percent might be insecure wives attempting to keep their churchy husband’s eyes on them alone, and if you are willing to accept that the 1 percent that IS attempting to distract men because they ARE in your mood is also fighting the same demons as you are you will either take the communion much more seriously or you might just hook up with this person who you have something in common with. But just as I could no more blame the good looking keyboard player wearing sharp clothes for my distraction to evil thoughts during church can you blame feminine accentuating attire on women in the pew or next to you on the worship team.
All you really have to do to know where the problem lies is study the rape cultures of the world until you find incidences of the one woman in the room who dares or accidentally reveals an ankle has incited evil lust enough for rape to be justified. Jesus never talked to women about their dress, at least not publicly or I am certain the Pharisees of his day would have it recorded somewhere.
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Joe wrote:
Maybe because they respect each other, because they like each other, because they have topics of mutual interest, or any number of other reasons.
What would you say if someone turned the question around to: “Why would a man want to be ‘just friends’ with another man? I hope they’re not gay!”
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Ken, we’ve all come down real hard on you about this but I really really hope for your sake and anyone you teach that you will take all that we have said to heart. You have no idea the damage done by church ‘authorities’ with your mindset as it is, please let us know if you ever have changes to your thoughts on this issue, I promise not to be harsh any more if you still need to work through, but I’m not going to be persuaded by your arguments as is, been there done that.
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@ gus:
@ gus:
Like
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I’m going to voice another assumption of mine. People who tend to think that the opposite is just wants to use them usually just want to use the opposite sex.
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@ Ken: No offense intended, but the more you spell things out, the more you are actually depth-charging your own arguments (as other recent commenters have spoken about at some length).
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@ An Attorney:
I repeat, immature boys in men’s clothing, doing things that excite them and reduce their self-control, then blaming some woman for their weaknesses.
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gus wrote:
Let me complete your thought – or any number of other reasons such as the woman is using men to have some emotional need met, likes being fawned over by servile men attempting to curry favor with her, likes to reassure herself she can attract men, wants to show other women she can attract men, wants to appear respectable, you know “We’re just good friends”, likes to be a tease – shall I go on and add other reasons?
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An Attorney wrote:
Are you Mark Driscoll?
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@ Joe:
Joe, you are so negative about women and their motives. Why do you think they are so evil in their thinking about men. Are you projecting your own issues with the opposite sex onto them? I spent 4 hours on Saturday helping a female friend load her belongings for transport to another city 200ish miles away, because she needed the help. And I had not one sexual thought about her, and I seriously doubt she had one about me. She has been a friend to me and my spouse, and is effectively a single mom with a 2-3 yo child, as her husband is away for an extended period. So several people, men and women, showed up on a cold rainy morning and moved furniture and household goods and packed them in a moving container for her.
I also work with women who are attorneys, very bright, generally well-groomed and dressed, mostly fit, the kind of woman I would look for were I single myself. But my interest in them has nothing to do with gender, but with the fact that they, like the male attorneys with whom I am friends, have skills and knowledge, and we can help each other with insights into the law, the clients, the judges, etc.
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@ Joe:
Be careful Joe, if certain film makers are reading this they might sue you for plagiarism. Sounds like the script in male fantasy film I viewed once.
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Joe wrote:
This weekend I went to see my good friend, Eagle, be baptized. You are so wrong about opposite sex friendship. My husband loves him as well. May you be blessed with such a friend.Joe wrote:
Kind of like the same sex friendship between Al Mohler and CJ Mahaney, perhaps?
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@ dee:
Dee….when you go out in public maybe you and every other female should wear a burka! 😛 There is a lot we can learn from Sunni Islam, as Ken exhibits. Just think after wearing a burka, we also need to segregate by gender. Females from 2 to 14 should be kept separate and circumssized. Remeber if a three year old is molested…its the fault of the three year old.
THEN….we can go in the Islamic direction. The Saudi’s broadcast their executions. The Taliban executed females in soccor stadiums…their crime. They are a female. So maybe at the next T4G or “Act Like Men” conference they can stone a woman to death or burn someone at the stake. Their crime? Tempting a man…by being a female.
However, since some guys struggle with homosexuality maybe the males can all wear burkas as well. That’s a thought…
But I better let it rest.
Signed…
The One Day Servetus of Fairfax, Virginia!
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@ dee:
Dee…the next time I see you I won’t enter into your presence unless you are wearing a burka. Remember if a guy struggles with lust…its the woman’s fault! 😛
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In other news, the weekend sport did not go well. Liverpool dropped points (albeit in a cracking Merseyside derby), the England rugby league side lost to the Kiwis (albeit, again, in a superb match)… and don’t get me started on the 1st Ashes test.
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@ Nick Bulbeck: And the Doctor Who 50th anniversary special was surprisingly good. Great chemistry between David Tennant and Smith – looked as if they’d been a double act for ages. (I am sorry to see Matt leave, though I can understand why…)
And … John Hurt! He was perfect.
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@ Joe:I have to tell you: you are SO wrong, in SO many ways, that I can only hope and pray you will have different – and better – relationships with women in the future.
Please don’t slam us all for the problems/mistakes you’ve encountered in your personal life. We are as diverse as men are, and that’s a *lot* of variety.
Some *people* – women *and* men – are manipulative and duplicitous. Human weakness and wrongdoing is a fact of life, and it certainly is NOT confined to one gender alone.
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@ numo – agreed on all counts. A nicely feel-good episode given the rather darker turn the series has taken, what with inexhaustible supplies of Daleks, Trenzalore, an’ a’ tha’.
In addition, I thought the epilogue was possibly Tom Baker’s finest moment as the Doctor; and he was in many ways “my” version of the Doctor from when I was wee.
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@ Nick Bulbeck: Oh yes, re. Tom Baker! When I 1st heard his voice, I jumped a bit in my chair – he was “my Doctor,” too, though I was watching reruns while in grad school. 😉
But I have to admit that Matt has displaced him on my “Top Doctors” list – there’s a charm and innocence about him that I really love.
As for going to the “dark side,” I think we get more Trenzalore at Christmas, but I’m sure it will have a very different outcome than “Angels Take Manhattan” did. (At least, I’m hoping it will.)
Moffatt is *finally* delivering the goods, after several seasons of convoluted scripts. Last year’s Christmas episode, the final episode of last season, and now the 50th – quite an achievement there. (I wonder if he worked with a script doctor?)
And Osgood: perfect fan stand-in!
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@ Nick Bulbeck: I think being The Curator is a fitting retirement job, or new job, or… (Who knows just how many regenerations he has left? At this point, anything’s possible.)
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Joe wrote:
You have either made VERY bad experiences or you have no idea what you are talking about. How many women do you know?
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numo wrote:
Loved the 50th Anniversary show. I think TWW needs a Dr. Who page for diversion to discuss all things timey-wimey
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@ JeffT: “Timey-what?!!”
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numo wrote:
I’ve no idea where I pick that stuff up
Love it when a show has a sense of humor about itself
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@ JeffT: Me too… “Inhaler – now!”
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JeffT wrote:
John Hurt’s “war Doctor” spoke for many fans when he said, What are you pointing them for? It’s a screwdriver, for God’s sake – what are you going to do, assemble a cabinet at it?
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In other news, just back from Monday’s excursion to the Stirling climbing-wall and I’ve just on-sighted (correct spelling this time) an alleged 6c which is thus downgraded to 6b. And I’m making pretty good progress on the yellow 7b with the insanely long reach to the sloping pinch-grip.
Thankyou for reading; I’ll get my coat now.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
when has it ever been used as a screwdriver, though? it’s more of a Magic Geek prop, like a wand or staff.
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I don’t get the Doctor Who stuff…but I’m eager and willing to start quoting from Chevy Chase’s “Fletch”,”Fletch 2″ or “Spaceballs” or “Galexy Quest”
“EB Ted Marshall has been a compulsive gambler” 😛 (You need to see Fletch 2 to see what happens)
“LUDRICOUS SPEED!!! GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!” (Spaceballs)
“Comb the desert!”
“Why didn’t someone tell me my a@@ was this big?”
“You went over my helmet?!?”
“Never Give up Never Surrender” (Galexy Quest)
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An Attorney wrote:
What you described is not “friendship”; it’s only a professional working relationship between peers for the purpose of furthering your respective careers or legal status. I’ve had many such relationships with women at my place of employment simply because they may have information I need to make my job easier and, the next time, I have information they need to make their job easier. It’s better to cooperate and share information for the mutual benefit of all. It’s only a working relationship.
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Why is it that a suggestion that women dress in a way not to draw attention to themselves is met with such an extreme response? No-one is talking of burkas, just having a sensible regard for others. Burkas deal with the symptom, not the underlying problem.
Any man who does not want to be distracted by what is worn in church is not necessarily full of lust, but he is aware of the dangers. If men are tempted with lust, it is their problem, but women do have a co-responsibility in this, or if you prefer, they can help. Love their neighbour as themselves.
I do actually have a sense of humour, and talking of mutual submission here was a bit tongue-in-cheek, though it does actually provide a good example of how this might work in practice. But there is no mutual submission, it’s ‘no-one can tell me what to wear’, poor women would otherwise be appeasing men.
I’ve seen almost exactly the same kind of discussion amongst atheist feminists, they have believed the lie that men and women are the same – “the woman was deceived” and carry on being deceived on this.
I’ve already said women don’t have to dress like Miss Marple. This is the equal and opposite extreme.
For comments on what is intended to be a discernment blog, you don’t have make a lot of assumptions! Someone once said that some Christians are very fit, because they keep jumping to wrong conclusions. I’m the only person who knows what my mindset is on this, and I’m pretty sure you are wrong on what you think it is.
Normal men can have all sorts of normal friendships with all sorts of people. Nick’s comment on avoiding the ‘second look’ earthed this issue in reality. Just be a bit careful, and relax. It doesn’t need to be such a big deal.
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Joe wrote:
I am so sad to hear you say this. Every person who crosses my path is not there for my convenience but has been place there by a heavenly Father who knows and loves them deeply.
I challenged a room of dental and medical students to see the people that they never see: the man who sweeps the floor, the lady who collects the dirty dishes off the conveyer belt in the cafeteria, the guy who collects the carts at Walmart. I told them that the first two people who sent me a picture of them with the “unseen” person along with what they learned, would geta gift certificate to a nice restaurant. I still have a picture of a smiling dental student, along with a Walmart cart collector who told him a touching story of being in this country to support his family.
May these people be far more conveniences in your life.
CS Lewis said the following which I apply to my life daily
It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare.
All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities[indeed one or the other is an eventuality], it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another… all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics.
There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal.
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Ken wrote:
Its really quite simple. Because everyone has differing standards. Only Pharisees can make such rules.
Also, given that the population is not adhering to some standard that you wish were set, it is a moot point. Watch the Duggars and get an idea how they handle this issue. Fascinating.
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@ Nick Bulbeck: I think I have some learning to do.
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@ Eagle:
I wondered whether I should simply ignore this post. Yet it is inaccurate, immature and malicious in its content, not the sort of thing that should be seen on a forum of Christians discussing issues, however high feelings may run on any one topic. It’s way over the top.
I sincerely hope, Eagle, you will mull this post over and avoid this sort of posting. You can disagree with me (or anyone else) as much as you like, no problem, but tone down the rhetoric, we are ultimately supposed to be on the same side.
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gus wrote:
Thanks for your comment. I notice that you are located in Austria. I’m located in the United States. It’s very possible that Austria experiences a more homogenous culture which, combined with a much smaller population, may result in a greater common bond between single men and women. Therefore, relationships may be approached somewhat differently than here in the United States which has a history that prizes individualism and freedom. On our coins is the Latin phrase “E Pluribus Unum” which means “out of many, one” It recognizes that we are different, kind of like a salad that is made from many different ingredients. So the relationship problems here in the United States many not exist in Austria due to culture.
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Ken, The next time you see a woman purposely flaunting herself with her clothes, feel sorry for her instead of being angry you are being tempted. She obviously has issues but then, so do you.
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@ Anon 1:
I’m not angry.
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Ken wrote:
Thanks for that, Ken. 🙁 (/sarcasm)
Do you ever go to the beach?
Any man who does not want to be distracted by what is worn in church is not necessarily full of lust, but he is aware of the dangers.
Dangers at church? Jesus indicated lust and evil thoughts are in the heart not in the pew in front of you.
What is modest seems to be rather an individual, subjective matter. I’ve heard some men object to sleeveless dresses. Some object to women wearing pants. Some object to anything lower than the adam’s apple. Others object to pierced ears. Some insist on long hair and that must be covered in church. I’ve even heard objectives (believe it or not) to the color red!! And even high heels!!!
Is it any wonder women have said, “Enough!!!?”
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Objections, that is….not objectives. 🙂
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@ Joe: First you generalize about all women, now you generalize about the entire US.
So sorry that you feel the way you do.
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dee wrote:
Please don’t attribute to me what “an attorney” wrote. He described a relationship he has with a female peer which he considers friendship. I simply replied that the relationship he described is not friendship – it’s a working relationship. I never said that every person who crosses my path is for my convenience or should be for my convenience.
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@ Ken:
Hi, Ken. Some thoughts.
“Why is it that a suggestion that women dress in a way not to draw attention to themselves is met with such an extreme response?”
++++++++++++++++++
–it is not necessarily the suggestion, but rather the fact that your particular guidelines (apparently skirts and hosiery are now frowned upon) are symbolic of the fact regardless of what a woman wears she is a problem.
You can say that “If men are tempted with lust, it is their problem, but women do have a co-responsibility in this” — but even when women are conscientious about carrying out this responsibility, it is always wrong. Your example of the woman playing the keyboard wearing a skirt and hosiery — chances are she did her best in choosing something appropriate. Perhaps she was told by someone else that pants are too casual, and that bare legs should be covered. So she simply chose the only option left to her. Yet that is now wrong, too. And she is painted as irresponsible.
In all honesty, I’m coming to the conclusion that the only way to carry out this “co-responsibility” is to wear a burlap sack. But then she’d have to jump around to get from here to there and that would definitely be drawing attention to herself — which also seems to be a big no no. Perhaps if she just didn’t come — that would definitely solve the problem.
===
“No-one is talking of burkas, just having a sensible regard for others.”
++++++++++++++++
the problem is that sensible is entirely a matter of opinion. I, like many women, am frankly weary of feeling like a pawn being pushed and pulled around the gameboard in this direction & that according to a spectrum of sheer opinions for the convenience & comfort of others.
========
“But there is no mutual submission, it’s ‘no-one can tell me what to wear’, poor women would otherwise be appeasing men.”
+++++++++
–‘no-one can tell me what to wear’ in actuality is “everyone is telling me something different as to what I can wear, and no matter what I choose I’m in the wrong.”
The only option is “I’ll do my best. Now pipe down.”
“I’ve seen almost exactly the same kind of discussion amongst atheist feminists, they have believed the lie that men and women are the same – “the woman was deceived” and carry on being deceived on this.”
+++++++++++++++
–you must have no idea how offensive it is to any woman to be viewed as “deceived” by reason of chromosomes.
==
“Nick’s comment on avoiding the ‘second look’ earthed this issue in reality. Just be a bit careful, and relax. It doesn’t need to be such a big deal.”
+++++++++
not sure who you are talking to here (men, women, both). I agree, it does not have to be a big deal. however, when all a woman’s possible wardrobe choices end up casting her as irresponsible & designed to draw attention to herself, the simplicity you describe is not possible. When a woman is invisible, when eye contact is avoided, it is dehumanizing. it is far from simple.
Ken, you seem kind. but I don’t think you understand the reality of what you are saying.
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@ Ken:
What is your idea of what a woman can where to not draw attention to themselves?
You didn’t respond to this @ Bridget .
. . . or this @ Bridget.
I’m really curious about your version of “appropriate dress” for a women.
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Joe wrote:
Well, er, no, actually. From 1970 to 2012, population grew bi more than a million, from 7.4 to 8.4 million, that’s 13.5%, about 80 percent of that one-million-person growth happened since 1990 – a result of a huge number of refugees and asylum seekers coming in as a consequence of the Balkans wars – Serbia vs Croatia and Slovenia, Serbia vs Bosnia, Serbia vs Kosovo – the breakup of former Yugoslavia. There is also a large number of people of Turkish descent, and many African refugees. So whereas Austria was very homogenous in the past (and boring as well), it’s now much less homogenous, more international and also more interesting. Not that there aren’t also annoyances – large-scale immigration is never without friction, not even, I’ve been told, in the U.S.A. which has a much longer tradition of welcoming immigrants than my country.
If your experiences have been bad, I’m sorry to hear that. Nobody deserves to be exploited or led up the garden path.
Maybe you should try to get to know more women simply as acquaintances and friends, but not necessarily very close ones. Not all the men you know are your friends, and male friendships can also be very superficial, where the shared interest is a sports team, etc.
But I assure you, I’ve always been friends with women, and in most of the situations either the woman, or I myself, or both were married. Even though they were not based on erotic attraction I’ve been greatly enriched by these friendships. I’ve also learned not to take myself too seriously.
I was good friends with my wife for six years before the relationship turned from friendship and mutual respect to love.
Women are just normal people, like everyone else (i.e., men). That does not mean they’re all nice – the proportion of decidedly not nice people and total a***h***s is probably the same for women as for men, or even slightly lower for women. You will never be able to like all of them, but then again, you don’t like all men.
That is, BTW, the difficult part of “loving thy neighbour” – if they were all very likeable, it would be easy.
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@ elastigirl:
Hi elastgirl – and Victorius and Bridget. Thanks for your post.
Victorius – my reference to Miss Marple was in my mind so obviously intended as humour so that we don’t get too serious about all this that I didn’t see the need for a smiley. I stand corrected. 🙂
Now regarding the keyboard, it was me at the keyboard not wanting to be distracted. I fear at this point though that I am going to disappoint Bridget – I am not a pharisee, nor the son of a pharisee. I don’t have a list of rules as to what everyone should wear. On the contrary, I am a great believer in Christian liberty. What I did say was to exercise common sense and deliberately worded my objection to women ‘dressing to draw attention to themselves’. There is a point where a skirt is too short, something that may be fine for a first date or the office ‘do’ may not be appropriate in church. The nearest I can get to a rule is that dressing well and looking attractive is fine, looking sexy is not. The church is not a dating agency, although you could sometimes be forgiven for wondering!
Lust is indeed a problem of the heart, but it doesn’t exist in isolation from something that can stir it up.
In practice I have rarely enountered this as a problem, but I might add that once or twice my wife has commented along the lines of ‘what does she think she’s wearing’ amongst churchgoers.
elast – I’m sorry you found my reference to atheist feminists being deceived offensive. It is not their gender that is in mind, rather the lie that men and women are equal in the sense of ‘the same’. I engaged in a discussion about this on another purely secular forum, and in the end even my addled brain finally twigged that this was the problem – women thinking that men think like women, or at least ought to. But God created us with considerable differences. Gender confusion in secular society is one of the wiles of the devil we need to resist.
I remember David Pawson in England when listing (not without humour!) differences between men and women noting that one of them is that men tend to think in terms of principle, and women in practical detail. This discussion is a classic example of this – I’m thinking in general terms about the principle, but you want a long list of rules as to how this works out in practice.
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I have not read all posts in this thread since I last visited it.
Julie Anne just posted a story on her Spiritual Sounding Board blog about a preacher (who I assume is married) who took sexual advantage of a married Christian woman (I think she saw the guy for counseling or help of some sort).
I don’t see anything wrong about a woman, married or single, who seeks to meet with a married preacher ALONE for counseling or leadership/prayer. That is in part what preachers are for, after all.
Some churches are rinky dink (under 200 members) with nobody else for a person to see (no extensive staff).
You might as well say that male preachers may only serve and minister to other males, which sounds ridiculous to me.
If we use the logic I saw above on this thread, married women should not be alone with a married Christian man (preacher), because one or both will have an affair.
And goodness, it will look unseemly to see a married woman walk out of the office of a married preacher, think of how it appears, or may appear, to others.
If that’s the thinking, then why not go all the way:
The genders should be segregated all the time.
Christian women should wear head- to- toe coverings, so as not to turn on the males.
Women should be kept separate; men on one side of the church, women on the other (or in a room in the back).
Sounds like some branches of Islam or ancient Judaism. I thought Christ did away with all that.
Women being paranoid of other women is not confined to Christian culture, though:
She’s A Homewrecker: the website where women expose ‘infidelity’ . The internet just ate itself
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@ Ken:
Hi, ken. If there are any people who think men and women are the same, they are a relative handful — a goofy one. Vive la difference, and hope for a society that defers to skill, talent, knowledge, experience, and ability rather than to a male stereotype.
It is problematic when those of privilege anounce their general principles without awareness of their impact on how things work out in practice at ground level.
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Ken wrote:
No disappointment here! In fact, glad to hear you’re not a Pharisee. Most of us reading seemed to be confused about “who” was at the keyboard. Most of us seemed to think it was a woman in a skirt wearing hose and that it was a problem for you to see her like that. You must admit that it is difficult for a woman to dress in a way that pleases everyone. I have to say, though, that I’ve also never had anyone point out that I’ve dressed inappropriately.
Ken wrote:
No one asked for a long list of rules. I asked you what your version of appropriate dress would be for women. I don’t have a clue who David Pawson is, but I don’t believe in his pigeonholing of men and women. There are plenty of men who are detailed and want lists and plenty of women who think in general terms about principle. So, I guess this discussion isn’t a classic example at all. You have read way too much into what some people have asked you.
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The pertinent part of this page is the section,
“Second, patriarchy tends to sexualize all male/female relationships.”
Three Ways Patriarchy [or, I’d add, run of the mill Gender Complementarianism] is Bad for Men
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@ Daisy:
What a great article!
Thanks for sharing that link, Daisy.