"What part of your ministry is the most difficult? As our culture becomes increasingly hostile to Christianity, ministry can place an adverse toll on your emotional well-being."
Release Date: November 5, 2013
Ministry in 21st century Christendom is dangerous according to Mark Driscoll. In a recent post (October 26, 2013) on the Resurgence website, Driscoll (who just turned 43) addresses a question that leaders (who are often young) sometimes ask — "What part of our ministry in the most difficult?"
In response to that question, Driscoll explains:
For me, the answer is simple: family safety. By far and away, this is the most constant, soul-aching concern that I deal with. Those ministering in more family-friendly suburban communities that welcome megachurches and gated neighborhoods may not understand the complexities of a ministry that is more urban and the dangers it can pose.
In 1 Corinthians 7:32–35, the Apostle Paul speaks about how a family, though a blessing, can also be a burden. I used to assume that he merely meant that someone who was single would have more time for ministry, but now I know the issue is much deeper.
Paul worked mainly in hostile, urban contexts where the backlash against the gospel was so strong that he faced very real danger. Having a family in such circumstances would have been even more difficult and dangerous. It’s one thing if opponents seek to harm or kill a single man, but a husband and father holding hands with his wife and little girl prompts an entirely different level of concern.
I had no idea that Seattle was such a hostile place. It almost sounds as threatening to Christianity as the Middle East. Does Driscoll have a project in the works similar to that of David Platt and LifeWay? (* $ee answer below). You may recall that our friend Todd Wilhelm, who currently lives in Dubai, wrote an article about Platt's recent simulcast from an 'undisclosed location'. I wholeheartedly agree with what Todd wrote and believe it applies to what Mark Driscoll is claiming. In his post Truth in Advertising?, Todd stated:
I would urge us as Christians not to trivialize or cheapen the very real sufferings that saints around the world are currently experiencing.
It may create a buzz amongst American Christians to think that David Platt is risking his life by taping a program in Dubai to be shown at a later time, but let’s call it what it is – a cheap publicity stunt that plays fast and loose with the truth in an attempt to boost book sales. It cheapens Christianity and makes a mockery of those who are actually facing persecution for their faith. David Platt should be ashamed of himself. He faced no danger flying into Dubai to tape his message at the Marriott Hotel. I, as a Christian in Dubai, face no danger to my life. I am fortunate to be able to live in a muslim country that allows me such freedom – thank God for that.
* Oh yes — the #1 New York Times Bestselling Author Mark Driscoll does have a brand new book out entitled A Call to Resurgence: Will Christianity have a Funeral or a Future?
Remember the stunt he and James MacDonald pulled at John MacArthur's Strange Fire conference? Driscoll claimed that his books were confiscated by the security detail. (link) and (link) It was an odd occurrence for someone who was on his way to speak at an Act Like Men conference.
Why is Driscoll bringing up these dangers NOW? I believe it has everything to do with book sales. Take a look…
Mark Driscoll then goes on to explain how he has faced dangers in his twenty years (total) of ministry. Here are several incidents he lists:
On two occasions, men brought large knives into the church and started approaching the stage to stab me while I preached. Our security team prevented this and law enforcement was called.
On one occasion, a man tried to get into my home in the middle of the night. Demanding to meet with me, he woke up and frightened my family. The police arrested him and put him in a mental health facility. The man escaped and started walking back to my home in his underwear. The police intercepted him when he was not far away.
Twice I have arrived home from work to find a registered sex offender seeking to engage with my family while waiting to talk with me.
I received a letter from a troubled man who said he heard voices telling him I either needed to stop preaching or he was supposed to drive to Seattle and make me stop preaching. When I checked the address on the letter, I noticed it was from a state prison. He was incarcerated for a violent crime and, according to the parole officer we contacted, in the process of being released.
Last year I came home from a day at the office to find an enormous pile of human excrement on my front porch. Not in a bag or shovel in sight, someone apparently dropped their drawers to leave a “gift” on my porch. This happened while my family was home and unaware of what was going on.
Why recount these purported events just TEN DAYS BEFORE the book release?
Dee and I have literally spent hours trying to find any evidence that Driscoll was approached by someone with a knife to no avail. Were there any witnesses? We would love to hear their account of what happened.
Update 11/12/13 link
The church has occasionally experienced violent reactions; a man attending an evening service, October 8 2006, attempted to attack Driscoll on stage with a machete.
In case you are not that familiar with Mark Driscoll (which was true for us up until early 2009 when he spoke to a Christian group on the UNC-Chapel Hill campus), you might want to check out these previous posts:
Mark Driscoll: Did He Stutter?
Mark Driscoll: I "Watch" Molestations and Affairs in Progress
'Act Like Men' – Are Driscoll/MacDonald and Gang Merchandising Manhood?
Driscoll goes on to cast doubt on the truthfulness of information on the internet (probably on a blog!) by stating:
Add to this the gossip that surrounds me, which once compelled an older woman to approach me at church and ask, while our children listened on, why I beat my wife, Grace. The woman just assumed that what she’d read online somewhere was true, despite the fact I have never and will never raise a hand in anger toward my wife or children.
Then there was this difficult to imagine incident that he describes:
Some people are just cruel. I was running errands with my youngest daughter, our most sensitive and affectionate child. She was holding my hand as we were walking around a hardware store when an older woman who looked like a sweet grandma came up, smiled, asked if I was Pastor Mark, and then asked if this was my daughter. The woman got down on one knee to look my little girl in the eye and say, “I’m sorry you have such a horrible man for a father. He hates women, which means he probably hates you, too.” And she did not stop there. In fact, she would not stop at all and just kept going. I did not engage, but rather walked away holding my daughter’s hand, since she was bawling at this point from being startled.
And to top it off, Driscoll share something incredulous:
Just as odd was when an amateur porn film festival announced the criteria people could meet in order for their movie to qualify. One option was to feature me and/or Mars Hill Church. Yes, if you had sex at our church or in my presence, your porno film would be shown in a local movie theater and voted on for a prize. With so much video of me available online, I feared being edited into a film, and my staff had to check the church and bathrooms before I walked around on Sundays to ensure that I did not end up in a porno. I also had to explain all of this to my wife in case she heard any rumors that I was in a porno, even though I am completely faithful to her.
Mark Driscoll wraps up his post with the following — notice how he plugs his book toward the end of his post:
Where are we headed?
All of this is just another stressful day at work for me. But given the direction in which society is headed, other ministers may get to experience some of these same scenarios, and some already are. I’ve heard horror stories from other pastors who have a higher-than-normal profile. One had a critic post large “Wanted: Dead or Alive” posters of him around town. Another received a letter containing photos of his home along with a threat to rape his wife. Another had critics waiting to cuss him out at his child’s school since they could not get a meeting through his office. The list goes on and on and on and on.
The complexity of diminished safety that technology brings is unprecedented in the history of the world. What will things look like in 20 or 30 years if the culture continues to trend less friendly toward faith in urban areas, and if technology continues to encroach on privacy and civility? I predict we’ll increasingly have to “evangelize through suffering,” as I put it at the end of A Call to Resurgence [emphasis mine]. It’s hard to think about this without getting anxious.
We end with this question:
Is Mark Driscoll touting the dangers he and his family (purportedly) face in order to sell his latest and greatest book which is destined to be a New York Times bestseller?
Lydia's Corner: Ecclesiastes 7:1-9:18 2 Corinthians 7:8-16 Psalm 48:1-14 Proverbs 22:17-19
Like any city, Seattle has some tough neighborhoods, but I suspect that most of the “hostility” MD says he experiences is more about his own hostile attitude than anything else.
Also, there’s a tendency for the word “urban” to be associated with African Americans, which brings up all kinds of possibly unpleasant associations (racist) – am certain that the use of the word is highly calculated in this instance.
[sigh] So tired of this person trying to make himself look hip, edgy, etc. etc. etc.
Honestly, I don’t believe a word this guy says.
Are you sure you don’t mean “pre-destined to be a New York Times bestseller”?
Much as I dislike the Northwestern Man-Child, it wouldn’t surprise me if some of his stories were true – I’ve met a few weirdos in my time and I’m not a high profile (confrontational) pastor in a large city… The wife beating part could easily be the understanding taken from a long chain of internet story telephone (exaggeration upon exaggeration). And, given Seattle, the p*rn festival thing probably has a web site where said announcement would be available. (But do you really, really want to go searching for it?)
I was affiliated with a church that was in a very “urban” area of town. And when I say urban I don’t mean prime downtown real estate like Mars Hill, I mean like three blocks from the cheapest strip club in the city. The church had to deal with drug dealers, regular robbery, prostitution rings, people throwing bricks into windows, and shootings. And this was just around the church, not even counting the many people who chose to live in the area to minister who had been robbed at gun point, got their houses broken into, and had their cars stolen. It was crazy and difficult, but we never gave in. Why? Because we felt that we needed to be a light in a very dark place and were willing to suffer the consequences for those. We also didn’t feel the need to show off those hardships, because the works would speak for themselves. And it had some amazing effects on the surrounding neighborhoods.
To see someone pass off “someone pooped on my porch” or “I had a crazy stalker” as “danger for the gospel”is sickening to me. Esp. for a book plug in. That’s not danger for the gospel, that the effects of being a highly controversial celebrity, an occupational hazard. Nobody ever said in the early church “I suffer” as a poor me or look how cutting edge and cool I am. They said “I suffer for the glory of God and His works”.
I try to not speak out of a place of emotion, but this really pushes my buttons.
I doubt very few non-Christians in Seattle give Mark Driscoll a second thought…or even know about him for that matter. Christians make his books best sellers, not your average Northwest type.
@ doubtful: I’m willing to bet that most xtians in Seattle don’t pay any attention to this guy.
I have no doubt that high-profile public figures, be they Hollywood celebrities or controversial “celebrity pastors” have to deal with stalking, harassment, and “weirdos” on a regular basis. We don’t hear about this too much in the airbrushed pages of People or even Christianity Today magazine!
Heck, I’m sure that the average non-celebrity pastor has to deal with unbalanced people every day, too.
I’m sure it’s unnerving to say the least and downright frightening for those who experience such a thing, but without sounding too cold, I’d guess that it’s simply part of the territory of being in “the people business.” One takes proper precautions and sensibly handles the security situation.
That said, Driscoll’s “observations” as quoted in the post above as always strike me as … somewhat unhinged in that hyper-aggressive, overly-sexualized almost scatalogical manner that is ubiquitous for Driscoll.
He always positions himself as the victim under constant ruthless attack by extreme forces of depravity because, you know, only he is the Ultimate Gospelly Manly Man and thus is a Very Special Target of Very Bad Stuff.
Talk about “weirdos”!
Numo your observation about the word “urban” often being used in a calculating way as a code word for “African American” should make people stop and think, too. Uncomfortable indeed.
Is Mark Driscoll touting the dangers he and his family (purportedly) face in order to sell his latest and greatest book which is destined to be a New York Times bestseller?
Sadly, my gut tells me YES.
Just as David Platt’s “harrowing” and “dangerous” excursion to the wilds of the Dubai Marriott was all about pushing $$$$$ sales by playing on people’s fears and terrible stereotypes.
Evangelicals, kindly JUST SAY NO to this type of nonsense.
Rallying the troops against the threat from outside is one of the oldest controlling mechanisms in the book, isn’t it?
And of course, as he gets older he has to play even harder at being Mark the action figure, doesn’t he?
One does not have to be a high profile pastor, (selling books) to be on the receiving end of threatening weirdos. My hubby has received them from a few unhappy employees when he had to terminate their employment. He received them when he was an active Marine. Heck, many years ago,I was jumped/assaulted by a man while I was walking home from the bus stop.
Point is, I would bet many people have experienced some sort of threatening ( or worse ) behavior from strangers, family or PASTORAL staff. I don’t think Driscoll has commented on the real and every present danger of child sexual assault WITHIN the church.
Two issues I find with this. One he makes it appear as if his position as a pastor is ever soooooo hard/dangerous. (as if our lives couldn’t be likewise ) and then he hawks the book by purporting to get us equipped for dark days ahead. I’d watch, Doomsday Preppers, before I’d purchase Driscoll’s book, at least the viewing is for free.
Fiscal is quite right in saying that it can be hard for followers of Jesus to follow their conscience and speak out for the truth. I read, in some detail earlier this year, the story of two men in Fiscal’s own town of Seattle who had given up safe careers to invest their lives in a relatively young, dynamic church plant.
All seemed well to begin with. But over time they saw the central leader displace or remove more and more of those around him who might have held him accountable, to become effectively the Chairman and CEO, in violation of the basic principles of eldership that had been espoused when they first joined the congregation. When they questioned the wisdom and appropriateness of a particularly large step in that direction, they were personally attacked, vilified and accused by the CEO of being divisive, prideful and greedy for position, and ridiculed as incompetent to discuss church bylaws despite one of them being a qualified attorney. Eventually they were sacked as elders, depriving them and their families of a livelihood, and the CEO and his loyal henchmen ordered the rest of the church – including most of their closest friends – to shun them. Both they and their families lost almost everything they had worked for, because they dared to speak out for what they believed was God’s truth.
For any of you not familiar with the story, the names of the two men in question are Bent Meyer and Paul Petrie. The CEO’s name is Mark Driscoll.
srs wrote:
Why didn't I think of that? 🙂
Rafiki wrote:
Exactly. Whatever dangers Driscoll faces are the result of his ‘celebrity’ status and not, as he would have us believe, a product of him being a ‘minister’. Whether it’s a Hollywood or music star or a ‘celebrity’ minister or someone else, anyone who has a high public profile can be a target of a sick wack-jobs (as an aside, the targets more often than not are women).
Some of Driscoll’s claim seem dubious at best. But the important point I think is that whatever danger he faces is due entirely to his high public profile and nothing whatever to do with his preaching some sort of gospel (lower-case “g” is intentional), yet he magnifies whatever danger he faces in his lavish lifestyle to make it appear that he is some sort of hero who is ‘suffering’ for his ‘faith’ in order to bring us his ‘gospel’ – just another celebrity ‘minister’ tactic to sell books and fill offering plates.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Great comment. For those who may not be familiar with Nick's recounting of what happened at Mars Hill back in the late 2000s, here are a couple of video clips that demonstrates Driscoll's demeanor around the time Bent Meyers and Paul Petry were fired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dSA5Vs9huc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKDgEufMKvQ
Here's a clip of Mark Driscoll prior to the new by-laws at Mars Hill that put him "in charge", with no chance of being fired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzsND0-K80
The commentary under this video is as follows:
9 Marks of an Abusive Church
http://www.ministrybestpractices.com/2013/09/9-marks-of-abusive-church.html
(4) Perceived persecution – To explain this identifying mark, Zukeran writes: “Because abusive churches see themselves as elite, they expect persecution in the world and even feed on it. Criticism and exposure by the media are seen as proof that they are the true church being persecuted by Satan. However, the persecution received by abusive churches is different from the persecution received by Jesus and the Apostles. Jesus and the Apostles were persecuted for preaching the truth. Abusive churches bring on much of their negative press because of their own actions. Yet, any criticism received, no matter what the source–whether Christian or secular–is always viewed as an attack from Satan, even if the criticisms are based on the Bible.”
TW wrote:
So true of Driscoll and his MH enterprise.
The Great Machete Incident
For years, Driscoll has talked about a man who supposedly rushed the pulpit, waving a machete. We have tried to find evidence of tho event, including calling the newspaper. To no avail. We have questioned this incident on a regular basis.
I note that there is no machete mentioned this time around. Now it is two guys with knives. Something is off here and I think TW nailed it in his quote.
It doesn’t surprise me. I’ve had death threats for the little two station radio show I co-host once a week. Most of them are people are just blowing off steam, that said, we got our concealed carry license, because it’s generally dark when we leave the station in the evening….and when you mix religion and politics, some people just lose their minds…
Hmm. This is a tough one. On the one hand, I really cannot stand Driscoll. At the same time I don’t want to be quick to say he must be lying about people seeking to harm him. I can totally see the situation with his daughter and that crazy lady playing out. There are crazy people everywhere. I do feel bad for his family. All that said, I do think lots of Christian leaders love to go on about how they are “persecuted.” It’s almost a status symbol.
Driscoll said “… I have never and will never raise a hand in anger toward my wife or children.”
I’m wondering, is it OK to raise a hand towards a wife or child if it’s not in anger?
Really? I am appalled the denigration of other believers on this website. It is one thing to talk about our theological differences or abuse of church members but this is outright slander. Especially against David Platt. I dont like everything that Mark does but come on? A lot of the storys you are referring to he has mentioned over the years in his sermons. These are not new. They may be new to you. The level of unforgiveness here is rediculous for Christians. Just for the record I think elder led churches can be abusive but does not mean they are the enemey. I pray our conversations are uplifting and encouraging and more about how to bring the Gospel of the world. Dont let the anger be the driver of your life.
There is nothing special or unique about Mark’s experiences. My father was a pastor of a small church (150) in Missoula, MT, and he had experiences with off-kilter people all the time. Our church windows were shot out one night–turns out it was a bunch of teens practicing their target shooting. Another time, my father spied someone digging in the flower bed in front of the church. When he went to investigate, he discoverd a 12-in. knife buried there. The most traumatic was finding the body of a man hanging from the balcony (he had taken his own life). All of this, plus the usual “pastoral” experiences of being threatened by people when he refused to give them money or being called in the middle of the night because of demonic activity at a church member’s university dorm room. There are unbalanced people everywhere and when you are in the mininstry of helping others and preaching the gospel, you are bound to come across a few no matter who you are or where you live. My father could write a pretty interesting book too.
I don’t doubt that some of these event might have happened. I would find the statements more palatable and Driscoll more sincere if the discussion was followed and prefaced with requests to pray for he and his family. However, I don’t sense any real fear about these events, and it appears the purpose of the disclosures are simply to pump up book sales. REALLY!?!
I don’t know what went on at the “Act. Like. Men.” conference, but this sounds more like “drama” queen talk to me.
PS – Their churches are not in the downtrodden “urban” areas that most people would be thinking of when they hear the word urban. This is manipulation at its worst.
@ Joe:
You and Driscoll seem to be joined at the hip 🙂
@ Joe:
Nice to see you again, Joe. I made bet with someone you would show up since this was about Driscoll.Joe wrote:
Prove to me that we are “against” Platt. I wrote a nice post about him awhile back. However, pretending that he was risking his life in a Marriott in Dubai was a bit much. It reminds me of a certain *machete* incident.
Honesty is always the best policy. He/LifeWay were the ones who advertised it this way. Not us. Are you truly giving Christian leaders a pass in the honesty department?
As for slander, you better prove it. The fact that you have misused this word makes it clear that you cannot discuss the facts so you resort to the ho-hum tactics of pastors in the pulpit for whom slander is an inconvenient truth.
Prove we lied, Joe. Man up. Isn’t that what Driscoll wants you to do? We at least give links, etc to our claims. All you have done is mouthed off with no proof which sounds suspiciously like a certain pastor.
Joe wrote:
One further point before i go to renew my driver’s license, if a church or its elders are abusive, they are the enemy. Abuse is straight from the pit of hell.
Lee Roberson, the former pastor at the Highland Park Baptist Church in Chattanooga, Tennessee, was attacked by a deranged man with a gun. An associate pastor stopped the man as he made his way to the platform and hit him so hard, he knocked the man out and broke his own wrist. This happened 40 to 50 years ago in a city that at that time was friendly to the Gospel.
For a season, Jack Hyles preached behind a bullet proof glass.
Ben Haden, former Minister at First Pres in Chattanooga was assaulted by deranged man on the steps of the federal courthouse in Chattanooga.
These incidents show that given the nature of our culture, public people, preachers and other types of public people, need to be careful for their safety.
I would suspect that could be more true in an urban center where there are millions of people.
I would not be surprised if Driscoll experienced these things. If true, they are awful.
Given his track record, I share some of your skepticism, especially as it relates to the timing for sharing these accounts.
It’s also important to make sure and separate general craziness from being stalked for the Gospel.
numo wrote:
I was trying to think of a family-friendly way of saying this, but numo took the words right out of my mouth! Thanks, numo. “Hostile attitude” describes Mark Driscoll to a T.
Apparently, the only thing out of a place here is MerkyD, and it looks like the chickens have come home ta roost, huh; playing the victim, are we now? The orthodox reformed pastor who enters the christian bedroom touting/selling/advocating?… a ‘christianized marital sodomy’, is now crying in the proverbial excrement left upon his doorstep?
—
JeffT wrote:
And even if it had to do with the content of his message, that in no way verifies that what he is saying is true. Mark, like a lot of Evangelicals, seems to think that all persecution is “persecution for righteousness sake”.
SYMPTOM: Paranoia
Driscoll:
So… if a person is unmarried and/or childless, it’s okay if they are beaten or harassed, or not as concerning? ❓
The life of a married person or a parent, or their safety, is more worthwhile than that of a single or childless person? That sounds like the implication. Somehow that doesn’t sound biblical to me.
Jesus Christ was not married and was childless, but Christians show some emotion and concern over his beating and crucifixion, but none for Average Joe Single Guy (or Gal). It’s interesting how that works.
Sopwith wrote:
Well stated, Sopy. 🙂
Driscoll sees “visions” so does this mean he is “troubled”? 😉
Sorry, I just couldn’t resist – he walked right into that one. Other than that a lot of the stuff he describes here sounds like standard operating procedure for any celebrity.
Aw, shoot, my last post is in moderation. I picked up an anti singles, anti childless tones in one of Driscoll’s comments.
Other observations:
OP (original post):
Jesus Christ said that Hell shall not prevail against his church, but Driscoll thinks anti Christian malcontents in the USA will?
I do believe that Christians face job discrimination in the United States (and Britain) for being Christian, and that secularists seek to minimize Christian free speech, but, I don’t think America has quite gotten to the point as some other nations have, where Christians are jailed, beaten, or beheaded simply for being Christian.
I agree with the OP that the timing of Driscoll’s comments indicate it is to hype his new book.
The OP quoting Driscoll:
Given Driscoll’s history of being tawdry from the pulpit and in blogs, I would think he would ask the guy for sex tips.
Driscoll:
I would assume he would have volunteered to host the porno film festival, so obsessed with sex is he!
Driscoll:
Driscoll may not physically abuse his wife, but from what I’ve read (excerpts from his books, his blogs, etc), his treatment of her is still abusive (such as, he’s overly controlling, as abusive husbands tend to be – they dictate to their wives their friends, who they may talk to and when, etc, and Driscoll does those things with his wife, he implies in his marital advice books that a woman should still perform in the bedroom even if she is feeling ill, etc).
Driscoll:
I would not condone walking up to a guy and his kid and saying that stuff out of the blue like she did, but I agree with the woman in principle, I agree with the content of her remarks.
I do believe Driscoll hates women.
On the one hand, Driscoll claims to esteem women, but it’s what some might call “benevolently sexism” (saying one wishes to protect women from evil but in the form of controlling their every move).
It’s sexism under the guise of care and concern, it is patronizing and condescending, and treats women as though they are three years old.
Some of Driscoll’s comments in the past (in books, radio shows, blogs, etc) show a disdain for women and for the feminine, no matter how much in the next breath he may claim to care about them.
Esther (from the Old Testament book), who I think was pretty brave considering the climate of the times she lived in, and that she confronted a king on possible penalty of death, Driscoll type-cast as being a willing whore in his Esther sermon series!
That shows a huge, profound lack of respect for women, to take a female biblical character who showed bravery and principle and make her out to be a self-serving hussy.
As to Driscoll’s concerns about how being a well known preacher can bring about death threats and so forth.
I do not condone people stalking or harassing anyone, but when you enter the public eye-
And some of these preachers actively seek fame, they are not content to just serve Jesus in a quiet lifestyle, but they run after fame and wealth.
Some of these preachers put themselves in the public eye, they aggressively seek after conferences, radio shows, they publish books and go on American national TV programs such as “Piers Morgan” and shows like “Good Morning America” to be interviewed about their books (as Driscoll has done), and they have their own weekly or daily TV shows, so it’s kind of hard for me to feel sorry for them in this regard.
“Will Christianity have a funeral or a future?”
Is that rhetorical or does he really mean:
“Will Mars Hill Extreme Reformed Theology Baptist Church have a funeral or a future?”
I think the latter. Why? Because his theology is untenable.
@ Anonymous:
Was that so some girl’s Daddy or Momma didn’t do him in for doing their daughter?
@ An Attorney:
Referencing Hyles and the bullet proof glass.
Bridget wrote:
ROFL! That is as succinct description of the Driscoll/Strange Fire confrontation as I’ve seen.
In the Celebrity Culture (where people eventually are famous just for being famous), one’s entire life experience is grist for the product-and-publicity mill. Once one gets a book contract, the publisher is always waiting for that next book to sell, which means the Celebrity’s life experiences are never just that – they’re the raw material for the next product.
Unless Josh Harris has stepped away from the Celebrity Culture, his publisher is in periodic touch with him, reminding him to be thinking of how the difficult SGM & CLC experiences of the past few years can be regurgitated into a book. (CERTAINLY Mahaney’s publisher doesn’t have to remind Mahaney of this.)
Now, there are thousands of current and former SGMers whose SGM experience could be turned into books, but since Harris is a well-known and previously successful author, the publishing industry is interested in his take – not in that of a victim with no celebrity status.
I have no intention of reading Driscoll’s book, but it would be interesting to see what percentage of the book focuses on Driscoll’s own experience rather than that of people he’s ministered to, or the stories of people who actually minister to the lost and broken in Seattle and beyond.
@ Anonymous:
I’d be interested in learning how common such assaults are in Seattle, and whether Driscoll is at all interested in assaults on other Seattle pastors – or just assaults on himself and his own family.
Joe’s gone quiet!
Anonymous wrote:
TedS. wrote:
GUESS WHAT?? Did you know that a certain pastor threatened to punch out his elders?? Can you believe it? Oh yeah, that was Mark Driscoll!!!!
So old Mark can threaten and then get all teary eyed when it happens to him. What a joke! Man up, Mark Take it like you wanted your elders to take it!!!!
@ andrew Kenny:
Joe has been claiming, for years, that he does not know Mark Driscoll and that he does not go to his church. But Joe calls Driscoll's daughter by her first name. He goes quiet when i ask him for proof.
He tries to play it like Driscoll but it doesn't work on the blogs.
@ TW:
All the more reason to avoid Driscoll whenever possible.
Who said “Drama Queen”?
“Driscoll…called a short-fused drama queen by his wife”
http://townhall.com/columnists/thortolo/2008/03/06/the_gospel_according_to_mark_driscoll/page/full
@ Don:
Driscoll likes to make threats of his own. Check out the two videos that I just posted.
I echo your confusion about why Driscoll is bringing these things up at this point. It seems a given that anyone in a high profile position is going to experience this, and I definitely don’t think it’s ministry-specific. Politicians face this every day. And everyone has heard the story of David Letterman’s ongoing stalker. Those who are standing up for Christianity in a public way are not the only ones who face these dangers.
I know many pastors who are just as vocal about their faith as Driscoll; they don’t have stalkers because they aren’t mega-church famous.
So, in conclusion, how does a normal celebrity threat level have anything to do with taking the temperature of the nation’s views on Christianity?
That being said, I do feel concern and sympathy if Mark’s family has ever felt threatened. I’m sure they have on at least some occasions because, as previously stated, that IS going to happen when you’re that high profile.
@ TedS.: See my new post!
Also, I know in reality something like this would feel scary if it happened to YOU, but that poop on the front step story….sorry, I’m having trouble seeing that as anything but funny 🙂
@ sad observer:
The poop on his doorstep only reminds me of the poop some people have had to endure when listening to sermons claiming that Queen Esther is a slut or outlining the sexual sins of his wife. Mark, on the other hand, is just fine.
As much as I think that Driscoll is off-base on at least 90% of his ideas… and a generally abrasive jerk… I have no doubt that he’s faced threats.
I’ve seen pastors get rushed on stage by mentally unstable people on several occasions. And I don’t attend megachurches. These incidents have been in nice, quiet Canada. And if that’s what I’ve seen in public, I’m sure that there are more “private” threats as well. If they happen to run-of-the-mill (as it were) pastors, they no doubt also happen to Driscoll.
Not saying that his bringing this up now isn’t a publicity stunt. It probably is. Most of what he does seems to be geared that way.
Just saying that he’s likely been the target of frightening incidents. That I do not doubt.
None of that is nice stuff, but these sorts of things happen to anyone who puts themselves in the public eye, or works with those who may be unwell or abusing substances, or similar. L’Abri workers have a lot of these stories too.
E.G.
Mark has also been the one to target others. See the new post.
BeakerJ
I faced them as a public health nurse. My husband has faced them in an emergency room. Missionaries face them around the world. Politicians and teachers, judges and pizza delivery folks, and on and on. In fact, Driscoll's own staff have faced them from none other than Driscoll himself. See the new post as a reminder.
Brian wrote:
When some preacher brags about how he is Persecuted for the Gospel, assume he’s getting “persecuted” for being an A-hole until proven otherwise.
sad observer wrote:
My father told me “poop on the doorstep” — especially the burning paper bag of poop — was an old prank when he was doing it back in the Thirties.
dee wrote:
The Exquisite Sensitivity to any slight to himself (real or imagined) coupled with utter indifference to any slight or harm he does to others. High School Bully with a Biblical Gospelly coat of paint.
Oh, come on Driscoll. One of my children is a high school teacher and she has been threatened a couple of times, and just a few days ago she had to extricate herself from the grip of one of the pupils. BTW, she did the break free that she had learned in the mandatory self-defense class that the teachers have to take. We live in that kind of society. Once when I happened to be AOD in a VA hospital in St Louis there was an incident where a would-be patient made a lunge for me, and the security officer had to intervene, in the fracas breaking the veteran’s arm with his billy club. LIfe is like that. Get over it. And once I was threatened second hand by somebody who “did not want me to get hurt” over the issue that a property I owned had been rented to the wrong person. And I never set foot in a pulpit.
So Driscoll thinks people ar ebeing tought and threatening him and his family. I wonder what Paul Petry and Bent Meyer would say to that! ESPECIALLy with all the crap Driscoll subjected them to!
Dee/Deb/JAS…as you challenge these guys more and more and become a thorn in the side of Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney, etc… I would be willing to bet these guys would threaten you. Mark Driscoll has already threatened people. Look at Mr. Humility…who before publishing and extoling humility practiced blackmail. These guys will do anything – inclduign violence, threats, etc…
If Mark Driscoll were a real man he would put his reputtation on the line to straighten things out with Paul Petry and Bent Meyer. But I don’t expect that to happen. BUT I would be happy to be proved wrong.
Hmmmmmmmm….since we’re talking about Driscoll, and since he brought up sex again….can I get really crass! 😛 I can’t think of a better topic to be crass on than good ol Mark. 😉
@ Joe:
Mark Driscoll is the one who needs to read your speech.
I just listened the other day to a commentary about Driscoll’s sermon at the “Act Like Men” conference by Chris Rosebrough, who I think attended the conference (or at least listened to recorded sermons from it, including Driscoll’s), and he remarked several times how angry Driscoll sounded.
You can listen to that review here:
Recap of Act Like Men
If that is not the correct audio, try the one at the same site under (it might be this one):
NOVEMBER 07, 2013 / Driscoll’s Resurgence Hypocrisy
@ Kendra:
The Devil in Pew Number Seven
The link is about a preacher and his family who were harassed for months by an angry, unstable church member. He eventually killed the parents.
@ dee: You forgot retail and restaurant staff…
@ dee: Long story short: *anyone* who works with the public is going to encounter strange, hostile and threatening people… as a former retail worker, I’ve been ins some *very* strange (and not a little scary) situations, though thankfully, they were confined to my workplace(s).
Still, *anyone* can be stalked. I think MD is very childish in the way he’s making all of this stuff public. (provided it even happened, that is.)
At the place of business my Dad operated, he had two deputy sheriffs show up and expect to be waited on first. When one of his employees, a high school buddy of mine who was all of 16 or 17, followed the rules and took customers in order, one of the deputies started shoving him with two handed blows to his chest. Teddy took it for three, four or five such blows, giving ground each time. Finally Teddy caught the deputy with an uppercut that lifted the deputy off the floor, broke his jaw and caused blood to run from both ears. Other customers defended Teddy from the other deputy, Dad called the police, and the deputies were arrested and charged with felony assault. The police chief and DA told the sheriff to keep those two deputies outside the city limits, cause if they came into city limits they would be again arrested. BTW, Teddy was 6’2″, weighed 230, and was in excellent physical shape, but looked even younger than his age.
The way to deal with threats is to report them to authorities and to stand up for those being threatened. Some of the stories here seem to suggest that no one will stand up for the abused.
I live in Michigan City Indiana. My home church was Countryside Christian Church. My family and I attended for many years on and off and had joined the church just prior to our "new" pastor being hired. Almost immediately we started hearing about Acts 29 and this "new network" we were going to become a part of. We started seeing large expenses like paying a designer to tell us what colors to paint the interior of the church, new books from the Acts 29 network that we were supposed to be taught from. The older crowd was forced out because they just weren't relevant enough and we lost our tithing base. Overnight new elders came on and old ones left in droves, and financially we began having major problems. It seemed each week we were told we weren't tithing enough. All the while our pastor in his hipster jeans and fancy shirts drove really expensive cars and his kids had all the latest stuff. I myself made the mistake of asking for a copy of the church budget which they had offered as a transparency issue and really looked at it. That led to a police escort for me and my family right out the front door of the church on a Sunday morning. They sent out a letter calling my husband out for NOT leading our home and controlling his wife and not a mention was made of our 30.000.00 dollar credit card bill ran up with trips out for dinners, new clothes at Nordstrom and other perks. Or the cell phone plan the church was paying over 350.00 dollars a month for. He was even charging our church for the gas and mileage each Sunday to our new church plant in a neighboring town! Our church is now a vacant building sitting derelict. It was a thriving vibrant over 600 people strong place of worship until Marc Driscoll and his network took over. My oldest daughter will have nothing to do with church and probably will never go back. My heart was broken and my family wounded,(edited-dee)
@ Rebecca Lynn: How would you like to turn this comment into a post? I really mean it? Please send me an email dee@thewartburgwatch.com
Based on what we know now, could have been.
Sorry Don, that was for you.
Doesn’t every pastor deal with this stuff? Is MD trying to paint himself as the exception or something? What “me monster.”
Countryside Christian Church?
http://www.countrysidechurch.org/
[hugely dead webpage link, that]
This reprint of a Scott Thomas feature of Kevin Galloway is still up, though.
http://www.churchleaders.com/index.php?news=140741/
http://www.kevingalloway.com/about/
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/kevin-galloway/b/568/3b6
Rebecca Lynn, was this the guy? It’s a guess given the information you provided
Some of the events sound like things that happened between six to eleven years ago. At least one knife-wielder got apprehended circa 2006. Not that the Driscoll family hasn’t had a set of challenges over the years, it’s just that some of the ones that Mark name-drops may have happened as far back as a decade ago in some cases.
I would suggest people not simply assume the incidents didn’t occur. There may be some exaggeration for effect but there’s no talk of machetes any more. For those who don’t remember, I fielded what was and wasn’t reported at the time about one knife-wielding incident. Not a machete but a bowie-knife-sized blade wielded by a guy who didn’t make it past the half-way point of the sanctuary some time in 2006. So, hey, at least it’s not longer a machete incident. That is something, isn’t it? 🙂
This breakdown of the advertising video for the Driscoll book by Zach Hoag points out that Driscoll is moving things up a notch by calling for a political right wing insurgence – that Driscoll is preaching a return to Christendom, not providing the way out. Orthodoxy takes back seat to ideology.
http://www.zhoag.com/2013/11/06/mark-driscolls-resurgence/
Exaggerating threats, hyping etc. just furthers the us/them, I’m a victim, please buy my book narrative.
dee wrote:
Yeah, no doubt. He seems like an angry guy. I’m just saying that I don’t doubt he’s been threatened and, further, I hope he’s brought in the police. If the threats are real, I worry about his wife and kids in particular.
Like I said, I’m no fan of this man. That should be fully evident. But threats are threats. And here is no excuse for that behavior.
You know…I think the best way to deal with folks like MD is to ignore him or satarize him.
I mean it….he seems to thrive on threats. But not being taken seriously is a bigger blow to the egotist.
Maybe we should suggest new titles for his Book like…
“The Call to Resurface”-Will Christianity Pave a New Path or Be Paved Over For Parking
Rebecca Lynn wrote:
Maybe your “church” should have signed up sooner. You think?
http://marshill.com/2012/04/10/is-your-church-interested-in-becoming-a-part-of-mars-hill
E.G. wrote:
There have been armed, uniformed, Seattle Police officers in the lobbies and entrances of Mars Hill for years. Mars Hill hired off-duty Seattle PD officers for security (they are allowed to be in full uniform – very powerful). Mars Hill also has a large force of its own private security guards, usually dressed in black wearing earpieces. At the end of a live sermon, Driscoll is hustled off stage through a phalanx of his ‘men in black’ and out the back door to a waiting car. No handshaking with the pastor after the service for him.
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
Rebecca has agreed to work with us for a post. Unbelievable. A true Acts 29 mess.
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet: I am not saying that he has not received threats. I am sure he has. But so has anybody who works in the community. Teachers, public health nurses, doctors in emergency rooms, substance abuse clinics, gas stations and convenience stores, etc. Then, of course, have been the horrific mass shootings in movie theaters, schools and military bases.
But Mark makes it all about him. And, of course, he conveniently overlooks his own threatening behavior. It might appear to some that he actually thinks that he is being persecuted “for the Lord” when, perhaps, he is being persecuted for his bombastic negativity.
It might be interesting to investigate this question. Does Mark get more threats than other pastors? If so, one might ask why that is. Is it for shining the light of the gospel or acting like a pugilist?
But, Mark has bought a nice, expensive house which I a bet has high tech security. I bet his home is far safer than those of many people in this world. And many of those people live in violent situations in the inner city and don’t have the cash to protect themselves.
No, I do not feel sorry for Mark. I believe he is brought much of this on himself. I feel far sorrier for those who must live and work in difficult situations without the cash to build fortresses and podium to cry “poor me.”
@ dee:
I’m failing to see how anyone can call men like Driscoll, Young, Furtick, and MacDonald ‘pastors’ when they live and act like celebrities. Sure there are a few unstable people who may want to harm them (as with celebrities) but they also have their adoring fan base that continues to support their work and life style.
@ Anon:
“Uniformed” police officers? I hope taxpayers aren’t paying for that. I’m sure the tithe payers are paying for security though.
Eagle wrote:
HUMBLE blackmail, of course. (chuckle chuckle)
…to Get Their Own Way.
Bridget wrote:
They probably are, though. Wouldn’t be the first time a Mega-CELEBRITY, pastor or otherwise, had some of the local cops in his pocket. Calvary Chapel Visalia comes to mind, and then there’s that one preacher before that who used a local police detective church member as Enforcer against dissidents.
Pingback: Is Mark Driscoll Touting the Dangers He Faces to Sell His Latest … |
@ Joe:
Joe Rachel Held Evans has the BEST POST EVER today in response to the plea to look all “happy and unified” all the time. No, being real is where it is at these days, and non-christians don’t actually care if we talk or not (shocking, I know).
So, back to Driscoll, he makes his bed, he sleeps in it. Plus, read about Driscoll in Haiti to see him handle non-persecution like a real man (or a real boy hiding behind a woman and all). That guy is so fearful and anxious, he sees a power-grab behind every criticism, a danger from every congregant, a demon behind every disagreement someone has with him. Paranoia much?
@ doubtful:
Speaking of satirizing Driscoll:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/driscoll-scholarship-fund-for-women-in-ministry/
( from Daisy – enjoy).
Anon wrote:
Wow. That’s nuts. Quite the image. Thanks.
@ Anon: You can’t make this stuff up… Such a pompous, self-important, small-minded man.
it sounds like he’s doing a pretty good job as a tinpot dictator’s impersonator. (I wonder if there’s a fake MD who does public appearances, like Stalin had?)
@ Bridget: They’re the “stars” of their self-produced “reality” shows. Literally.
It has everything to do with money and media exposure, and nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus. (Much like some of the medieval and Renaissance-era popes who were from powerful, filthy rich families and who threw money around with abandon.)
I’m wondering if there is any connection between this seemingly random discussion of the terrible “dangers” that Mark faces and the recent controversy over the living arrangements of Mark’s friend Stephen Furtick. I know that many people in ministry use safety/security as a reason to purchase expensive houses in gated communities, or to justify personal assistants (bodyguards) or special travel arrangements (big powerful SUVs, personal drivers, private planes, etc.).
I wonder if any concerns have been raised lately about Mark in these areas, and what we are seeing is a strategic move?
@ Mr.H:
Interesting thought. Mark lives in a large house too, correct?
This is absurd. I live in Seattle, my husband is a pastor, and while it is a secular area, it is not “dangerous” for Christians. My head explodes a little every time someone in America claims that it is so dangerous for Christians here. We have freedom of religion. Someone not liking you does not equal persecution. And Mark has given others many reasons besides his claimed Christianity for others not to like him.
I would say most Seattlites know who Mark is and dislike Mars HIll – for obvious reasons, misogyny, offensive speeches, the ridiculous fight club/demonizing yoga statements – but also because they get super annoyed with the mega churches causing neighborhood problems like parking, traffic, and all that.
@ M: Thank you so much for commenting!! Awesome.
@ M:
Thanks for chiming in. I believe many Christians share your opinions regarding Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill.
@ Mr.H:
The strategic moves would be promoting a recently published book, unless the Driscoll family were literally moving to some new home from where they’ve been … but who moves out of a million-dollar home they’ve owned for barely more than a year over something like that?
Mr.H wrote:
Could it be?
Very perseptive, you are.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2013/09/mars-hill-church-in-may-and-june-of.html
@ M:
“…it is not “dangerous” for Christians. My head explodes a little every time someone in America claims that it is so dangerous for Christians here. We have freedom of religion. Someone not liking you does not equal persecution. And Mark has given others many reasons besides his claimed Christianity for others not to like him.”
+++++++++++
right to the point.
my missionary grandfather was surrounded by tribespeople numerous times with 6 foot spears pointing at him. his colleagues, a young married couple, were beheaded/bayonetted. QUIT YOUR WHINING MARK DRISCOLL
If you say he lives in seatle….my husband’s been there. Saw a gun shooting rampage in action. Yeah its full of violence.
Driscoll tries to pull the world in with worldliness…..need I say more.
@M ok that makes sense. I live in an area where we keep our doors open at night…..so a little leary behavior startles us here.
I live in Detroit with my dog and my cat and I am fine. Perhaps I’m one of those masculinized females, but still, I’m not _all_ man like Mark. And people here are fine with Christians. Maybe Mark needs to move to my town, lol.
@ Patrice: Too “urban” for him, I’m thinking – because his version of “urban” areas is nothing like Detroit, culturally or otherwise.
I suspect that he might feel uneasy were he to spend time in black churches – lots of women there who are self-reliant and unafraid to speak their minds. Would probably scare the you-know-what out of him!
I have visited in a number of black churches. Heard a lot of good preaching, but the reason I go is for the gospel music. Spouse and I have been the only people of our complexion at a number of events in Black churches, including funerals, gospel sings, and church services. I have also, during a campaign (now 35 years ago), been with a candidate on Sunday visiting in several black churches. And no, few white conservative evangelicals would be comfortable in those churches, and few would find their theology welcome there.
Race matters little to me. For two years my college roommate and my frequent dinner companion were black. My family includes a black niece and nephew, a Hispanic sister-in-law, a full-blood Native American, a person of Hawaiian ancestry, a person of Japanese ancestry, and a whole lot of Southern and Texan Caucasians, some of whom share with me a great-grandmother who was Cherokee. And the only people in the group with any racism are some of the whites who really should know better.
numo wrote:
Some of the women in my neighborhood are downright formidable. Even I (a 56 yr old) call them ma’am. I would love to see Mark act like a man and come live here for a coupla. Be good for his soul.
__
MerkyD is hustled off stage through a phalanx of men in white’ , strayjacked and wisk’d out the ‘church’ back door to a waiting ambulance. No handshaking with the pastor after the service for him. So sad.
How do you spell ‘spiritual relief’?
hmmm…
__
Mason Williams – Classical Gas, w/ Deborah Henson-Conant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vXtywOlayc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
—
@ Patrice: You should invite him, Patrice! But with the proviso that he come on his own, with no entourage.
I think he needs to sit down and have a cuppa with some of these ladies. it would do him a world of good.
@ numo:
But numo, I *can’t* invite Mark over because my dog, an independent-minded female (ummm you know), is so territorial! Plus my formidable neighbors are too busy to aid in the reluctant education of one white boy, Mark Driscoll. They have enough work with the cranky males at hand.
No, his friends/mentors need to help move him here for two years with wife/children (no security personnel, please), and manage on the income of the average Detroiter (that’s about 16K for four). This would allow him to mature into the manhood of his potential, while refocusing/strengthening his soul.
But I am willng to be the local advisor. And I could get him a free pass to the art museum. The African-American museum, too. Whoop.
@ Patrice: sounds good, and I’m sure the folks in your ‘hood would be more than happy to help him learn some of the facts of life. (Those ladies especially.)
It would do his soul good to be around real art, I’m thinking – no MMA (in person or on TV/phone/etc.) allowed for the duration.
@ Patrice: As for the idea of MD having to spend remedial education time at the African American history museum, I don’t have to spell it out, do I?
numo wrote:
Yes, I guess there “is a tendency”……for those who try to turn everything into a racial issue. Look, I can’t stand MD. But if we’re not fair, then we’re no better than he is. Nothing in the statement implied race. Look up the crime stats for any city. Most suburbs are virtually devoid of crime. Urban (and I do mean the textbook definition of “urban”) areas have higher crime. That’s all he was trying to say. I take it MD lives in Seattle and not in Bellevue, Bremerton, etc.
@ numo:
The phrase “inner city” is sometimes used in that capacity.
Alan wrote:
Actually, according to this website: http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2013/09/mars-hill-church-in-may-and-june-of.html , he may reside on a gated estate in an exclusive suburban enclave, quite removed from the unwashed urban masses.
@ Alan: I’m not “trying to turn it into a racial issue.”
It’s a reality in most cities, and “urban” is often a way of throwing up a smokescreen, much like the phrase “collateral damage.”
@ TedS.: Exactly.
@ Alan:
My original comment was intended to point out that even though Mark sees himself as a man’s man, courageous in the face of threat, this post shows he is not so. That is why I offered him Detroit.
If Mark would choose a place like this to further his education, he could learn what it actually means to be a man in the face of genuine violence. Because Detroit is 85% black, he could also learn how to transcend his white subculture, which would broaden his message to the size of the actual gospel (it’s huge!) Additionally, he could learn what women are capable of because in the black culture, women largely hold things together. (And as an aside, I am a white woman living alone here, and I am also fine.)
Lastly, Mark needs to learn about poverty and humility. There is no group in this country who better understands the meaning of these two things than urban Af-Ams; and some of them manage with more grace, more style, more strength, and more wisdom than any other group I’ve had the privilege to be among.
I have no idea if Mark has a racist tinge to his psyche. He has a sexist tinge, so it wouldn’t surprise me. But either way, Detroit can provide answers to his problems. My proposal is completely fair to him. It speaks to his desire to be a real man, to take on challenges that require courage, to stay hip/edgy as he ages, to learn more about the ways Christ works in broad culture, and to revise/settle his preoccupation regarding the meaning of women.
@ Patrice:
Of course, this is merely a thought exercise, a forlorn attempt to provide positive direction for this man who spreads his weaknesses across the evangelical community.
numo wrote:
We’ll have to agree to disagree. The article was about MD and the issue of safety. You’re the one who injected race into the equation. I thought the terms “urban” and “suburban” were pretty much self understood by most, but perhaps that’s not the case.
TedS. wrote:
Well, if that’s the case, then MD’s comments on the matter make no sense. Again, to reiterate once more, I don’t care for MD anymore than anyone else who posts here. I’m just beyond sick of everthing being turned into a race issue. Look, the incident with the guy with the machete is well documented. Nobody ever said in the article anything about the race, creed, color, or country of origin of the man with the machete. The article is purely about MD’s claims of being not feeling safe. That may well be total bunk, but it has nothing to do with race.
@ Alan: please see Patrice’s comments – they’re just above your latest.
There are more than enough things about MD that raise huge, red flags that are actually true. We don’t need to go around making up false reasons to not like him.
Alan wrote:
I am so, so, so excited. Please provide me with the documentation to the machete incident. I have been looking for it for several years. What I mean by documentation is not a page in Mark’s books. I mean, the police report, eyewitnesses, newspaper stories, tv stories.
It is so odd. If any guy rushed the pulpit waving a machete and trying to get Mark, the story would have been all over the news. Fox news, etc. I can’t find it anywhere and I have the date of the occurrence. So, please do us, and Mark a favor and point us to all of the documentation. We would be so grateful.
Oh yeah, Mark is living well in an expensive house so I think he is safe now.
@ Alan: True confession: I am feeling a bit guilty. You see, I have long suspected that the machete incident did not occur, especially the machete part. When you provide me with the documentation I will put it up on our home page to assuage my guilt for not believing him.
If you go to this page on you tube, you will see that machete wielding nutjobs are well covered by the media.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=man+with+a+machete&sm=1
@ dee:
Good approach. If there is no documentation anywhere except where MD has fantasized, especially in his writings, then he is a proven liar and exhibitionist. And if it does exist, then he is exculpated on this particular charge. Like you, I doubt there are any contemporaneous accounts of the event, and, in fact, there is a lot of available video, etc. of most events at Mars Hill, so they cannot claim it occurred if they cannot provide the evidence.
@ Alan: false? what s hoot!
@ numo: a hoot, that is…
like Dee, I would love to see actual documentation of the supposed machete incident…
Alan wrote:
How am I making up false reasons not to like Mark? I’m proposing a possible remedy that happens to include the urban Af-Am community (if they’d have him).
I do not understand what you mean when you say you “are beyond sick of everything being turned into a race issue”. It is not so in my life. In what ways does that happen in yours?
Anyway, my remedy is not intended to address racial issues. It is simply that this particular bunch has a wisdom that Mark doesn’t have, that he desperately needs, and that he can’t learn unless he were to live in the community.
I’m sure there are other ways for Mark to learn what he needs. This is my proposal. You may have another one. It is helpful to not just grouse about people’s failings but to also imagine options, even if merely as a personal exercise against cynicism.
@ Alan: btw, Wenatchee the Hatchet was a longtime member of MD’s church, and still has inside sources.
Alan wrote:
False. It is not documented at all. There is not a shred of evidence that the incident ever occurred. Of course, there may be a news report about it out there that nobody has discovered yet. Until then, I am not holding my breath.
pcapastor wrote:
As I was saying….
Here’s the only documentation I have found about the machete incident:
From Vintage Jesus (pp. 22-23):
Where is the police report and the witnesses to this altercation???
@ Anon: I actually called the city desk of The Seattle Times. They were unable to assist me in finding out if this event occurred.
I heard a rumor that some guy with a knife (not a machete) entered the building during a church service around that time. However, he was stopped by security and did not run down the aisles waving it around.
Perhaps the machete was seen in one of Mark’s provisions and he confused it with reality?
@ Deb: The only documentation that I could find was in his book. For crying out loud…don’t you think a whole congregation would remember some guy waving a machete and trying to get on the stage? Perhaps they were all sedated?
@ pcapastor: Here is the problem. If Mark is willing to exaggerate on this, does he do it in other situations?
Whenever MD’s machete incident is mentioned here, I think of this event: http://news.howzit.msn.com/news-features/st-james-remembers-the-massacre.