This has been a frustrating and disappointing week. However, we are encouraged by the ground swell of concern being expressed in the media. No matter the spin on the part of "leaders," there is continued expression of outrage on the subject of the alleged cover-up of abuse.
This is just a gentle, general reminder, with no one in particular in mind, that we need to be sensitive to the possibilities of misunderstandings, and even misrepresentations, during this trying time. This blog is being quoted in the media and that means we are under scrutiny.
Therefore, please abstain from using any language, even metaphorically or jokingly, which could be misused as evidence of threats or violence towards another human. We know our readers, as well as your two dog and bird loving bloggers, would never do such a thing but others might not.
We are going to add a few words to our word filter which means, if used, they will go into moderation. We will then approve those one by one which may take some time if we are taking naps in our mothers' basements. Although this is not a comprehensive list, here are a few examples.
- gun
- assault
- weapon
- kill
- murder
- hold a gun to his head
This next statement is for our detractors. We dislike the way things have gone at SGM and other churches. We disagree with the way it appears certain theology is applied and we do not believe in authoritarian pastors or leaders (sometimes called strong leadership by those who appear to minimize the outcomes). However, we wish to see these churches reform, not be destroyed, and we pray to that end. Think along the lines of Martin Luther whose life has something to do with the name of our blog.
However, we do not apologize for defending alleged victims. We believe their accounts, as well as many more accounts, as documented at SGM Survivors and the former SGM Refuge. We believe the stories of alleged victims in other church families as well. Our detractors can feel good about standing with other well-known Christian leaders while we feel good about standing with the unconnected and unknown alleged victims. As always, we pray that truth will prevail, even if it is difficult.
Finally, we pray for those involved in the tragedy in Gaithersburg as well as for Joshua Harris who has recently discussed his own victimization.
We are so grateful for our wonderful readers.
praying
CJ developed a culture of silence, control and fear through intimidation and manipulation. He laid burdens on our shoulders that most couldn’t achieve. He railed, ranted and raved for years about things he then couldn’t pull of himself. And then ran away.
Dee and Deb have been light in the darkness for me. Thank you! When I started reading here two years ago in July I realized the truth of what’s been going on. The money CJ gave the SBC was the give away for me. It hit a vain of truth that I couldn’t deny. And it’s been ongoing ever since. Thank you with much admiration.
I’d like to add my comment, that as an atheist I stand with Dee and Deb. These events need to be thoroughly investigated and the truth discovered. Until that process is complete it is inappropriate for any of the people named in the lawsuit to continue to occupy a position of authority or, given the circumstances, have any contact with children.
It is unconscionable for the religious leadership to rush to the public defense of the people accused prior to a complete investigation and is also a slap in the face to those who have brought the charges against them.
If those in leadership positions want respect, the very least they should be doing is attending to the victims who have suffered, care and provide for the families of those who stand accused and to distance themselves from the accused until an investigation has been completed. Those who stand accused should be voluntarily stepping down from any position of leadership or authority within the church.
Joy Huff wrote:
Thanks Joy for the reminder. He gave it to SBTS where Mohler is President. Your tithe dollars at work, eh?
@ Anon 1: I try to always remember who pays Mohler's salary as seminary president – the SBC.
@ Fendrel:
We are so grateful for your support and friendship.
Deb wrote:
Deb, The SBC starts their annual convention in Houston on June 11. Mohler will be speaking as usual giving his report. It will be interesting to see what happens or does not happen there. Some of the well known Reformed SBC pastor blogs are either not touching this with a 10ft pole and acting like nothing is going on or a few are touting the T4G and TGC statements as vindication of Mahaney.
I don’t think any of them expected the comments we saw on facebook.
The SBC has some serious decisions to make concerning Mohler who is actually a paid employee as you remind us. Will they have the nerve to do it?
@ Joy Huff:
When I began to follow the money trail, I got very upset. I did not believe it was fair for SGMers to be funding a Southern Baptist seminary (and I’m Southern Baptist!).
It occurred to me that this was probably going on without those belonging to SGM churches knowing about it. I couldn’t care less who Mahaney gives money to, but congregants should know which ministries they are funding.
Deb and Dee — You’ve done a great job. We appreciate your sacrifices. It’s a privilege to watch your passion online. We know it’s a full time effort to stand up and give victims a voice. Educating people and changing long-held opinions is the most difficult task any organization can have. Two steps forward and one back. This will be a long tough road with lots of ups and downs. But one heart at a time, the truth will win if we persevere.
Anon 1 wrote:
If they were totally taken by surprise by the way their statement was received, then they are so completely out of touch with the real world that the rest of us live in I don’t know how they can possibly consider themselves shepherds or pastors. How can you lead that which you do not know or understand? You cannot.
When leadership is that insulated from the reality of the rest of the world, they need to step back and ask themselves what has happened. And those that faithfully and trustingly follow them need to step back and ask themselves why they feel such great devotion to such men.
Anon 1, Oh yes! The SBC annual meeting…
I'm grateful for the live streaming. This will be the third year I have watched the proceedings. It can be quite entertaining at times. Remember the guy who rapped his motion about Mark Driscoll? That was before 'Real Marriage' and other 'issues' with Driscoll.
And I've not forgotten that Mahaney spoke at the 2010 SBC Pastors' Conference when messengers met in Orlando.
I second what Janey said!
@ Sallie @ A Woman’s Freedom in Christ:
Agreed!
Janey,
When I started researching this stuff in the fall of 2008, I became VERY discouraged. As a lowly female, what could I do to turn the tide.
Dee and I started blogging in March 2009, and we have kept at it. There are ups and downs, but we see this as a ministry. We love our Internet friends! We have met some of you, and you are such a blessing!
@ Deb:
I remember saying the same. CJ can give his own money to whomever he wants. But not mine. My husband and I had just decided to tithe on the gross. After I read about this here we decided no more tithing. Thank you!
It’s just been recently that I’ve admitted to myself that I belonged to a cult. Before I jokingly said it was a cult, now I know for me it was.
Dee and Deb,
I want to thank you for starting this blog. You say it has its ups and downs and, after six years of dealing with some very difficult people myself, I can understand what your “downs” must be like. I’m sure you both have paid a price for TWW.
My heart breaks for the victims and their families. My heart breaks knowing they may be completely disenfranchised with not only the church, but with the gospel message. People who find themselves at TWW, though, will find a balm for their pain and frustration. Thank you and may God richly bless you!
What is the story behind CJ giving money to the Southern Baptists?
Deb wrote:
Abimelek and Sisera discovered the power of lowly females the hard way.
M. Joy wrote:
In a nutshell, between 2002 and 2006 C.J. Mahaney personally gave a total of $100,000 to the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Sovereign Grace Ministries has also given at least $100,000 to Southern Seminary over a similar time frame.
Here is the post that discusses these contributions. The Mahaney Money Machine
On a previous post, Anon 1 quoted Detwiler saying “Another story will soon break where C.J. conspired to cover up sex crimes for a friend.”
What is this? Does he actually know that something is in the works, or is he saying that it has to happen at some point because obviously CJ knew about this stuff??
Anon 1 wrote:
I watched Mahaney hand Mohler a substantial check on the SBTS main chapel stage, right before Mahaney preached to the student body. He turned around, winked at us, and said, “This is how you get invited back, kids!”
Indeed.
I would like to join in and thank Dee and Deb for their website. I have been following it for about two years and have learned so much. It has given me the tools to understand the unusual choices some of my family members have made. Maybe it’s in the water here in North Carolina, but we were raised to not question authority and to believe everything out of a preacher’s mouth. Fortunately I moved to New York when I was a young adult and quickly learned to be more discerning! It breaks my heart to see them being so misled. Everyone here is helping me make more sense of it. I admire Dee and Deb’s tenacity and willingness to stand up to the bullies. Thank you both. Ann
Dee/Deb,
I found a perfect logo for you all (j/k). 🙂
https://twitter.com/FuzzAtheist/status/338445033193738240/photo/1
Fendrel wrote:
If they weren’t Pastor/Dictators they would have been placed on paid leave until the investigation was resolved. That’s the way it’s done when serious charges are alleged against a police officer or other legal authority. Otherwise, there is too much legal liability risk of more victimization and the appearance or substance of a conflict of interest.
Deb wrote:
Because MONEY TALKS. With money goes Influence and possibly “bought-and-paid-for” control, just like with Campaign Contributions(TM).
Eyes in the Pew wrote:
Again, MONEY TALKS.
Can you say “SBTS: BOUGHT AND PAID FOR”?
(Or at least going out of His way to make it appear so — HUMBLY, of course.)
https://twitter.com/kinnon
Check out these tweets. Todd Littleton asks a great question: why no word from the new SBC Ethicist. Of course he knows this but the reason it that position went to Russell Moore who was working for Mohler when he got that position. So how is he going to explain this when he is lobbying in DC for the SBC?
Eyes in the Pew wrote:
Did they make any mention of what the money was for exactly? I do have to wonder why there was no need in SGM or its pastors college or private school. Hmmm.
Fendrel wrote:
LOL! I actually follow some of those guidelines. For example, I'm a keeper at home (which allows me to blog!) and I dress modestly. I think I'm quiet, but others may disagree. 🙂
Eyes in the Pew wrote:
Do you remember the year? Could it have been 2006?
Here is what I discovered and shared in the Mahaney Money Machine post.
@ Joy Huff: Just keep seeking the truth.
Anon 1 wrote:
I am sure they will never make that mistake again. hearing from the great unwashed is just too icky.
Janey wrote:
Truth and compassion for the people Jesus hung with. It was not with the big conference speakers, was it?
Sallie @ A Woman’s Freedom in Christ wrote:
Jesus spent time with the regular people. The Pharisees spent time with one another. Now, which one do we want to be? Frankly, the regular people are far more fun!
Lisa wrote:
Thank you. Yes, we have paid a price. However, it was worth it. We love the people we have met here. You all are a lot more fun and interesting than the ones who cause us a bit of trouble.
Ann wrote:
That is why we get into trouble here in North Carolina!
dee wrote:
No, ma’am!
@ Fendrel:
I stand with anyone who stands against this kind of tyranny…atheist, agnostic, even Calvinist (though I might lean away a little 🙂 ).
I want to add: to all of the people who have been abused who gather the courage to talk about it here, thanks so much to you. You are well loved; both here and There.
Also, there is no need to resort to physical violence. These men can be soundly defeated in the arena of ideas, and that is the only place that matters. Violence never leads to “truth”. Only consistency of ideas.
Joy Huff wrote:
I agree Joy, and I see that as a prerequisite to reform. There must be a wholesale rejection of the whole hierarchical system and the doctrines that supported it. But my feeling is SGM is basically a social club, and always has been, for most people.
But there’s been a ‘great disturbance in the force,’ which was manifest when Mahaney abandoned the flagship. I don’t think it will be that long before people are looking back on all this and see SGM, Mahaney and his supporters as being basically irrelevant. I think we can all see he and his T4G supporters are not banded together for the sake of the gospel, and I really don’t feel any pity for them as a consequence. They’ve all been warned and been given ample opportunity to make an about-face. But they’ve refused to listen!
SGM (for one) has been driven back and I’m thankful to The Wartburg Watch for being a battleship that’s delivered some decisive blows!
Deb wrote:
So, you can buy a seminary president on the level of Al Mohler for a mere $200,000? You get his endorsement or silence no matter what you do? This was a great investment for Mahaney.
“Take no bribes, for a bribe makes you ignore something that you clearly see. A bribe makes even a righteous person twist the truth. Ex. 23:8
@ Eyes in the Pew:
Why would anyone hand a check to someone publicly like that? Let’s see, isn’t there something somewhere…maybe in the Bible??? about not blowing trumpets when you give?
Jeff Crippen wrote:
Does that also apply to blowing long trumpets to announce how Humble you are?
@ Jeff Crippen:
I don’t know, but my guess is that he was probably giving the check on behalf of SGM, not himself personally.
I understand that Mahaney gave $100,000 of his own money, plus SGM gave $100,000, plus CLC gave $50,000.
But really, Mahaney controlled it all. No one else in SGM or CLC had a voice or a vote.
Well, technically, I suppose, some leaders somewhere must have had a vote — as long as it was, “Yes, C.J., certainly, whatever you want.”
And the people who tithe and buy books and pay for all this? They’d never have had a clue if someone hadn’t investigated SBC financial reports and dug it up. They’d never learn it from SGM, that’s for sure!
All those faithful SGMers giving to missions, and Mahaney felt free to use their money to buy influence and position and favor for himself (and his sons-in-law).
It paid off for him, though! Once his ego outgrew SGM, once the unquestioning adoration he received from effusive praise and standing ovations there was no longer enough to feed his ever-increasing need for narcissistic supply, he bought a bigger stage with other people’s money. Score!
Now he gets a larger audience and more applause for less work and even less accountability. Now he can recycle the same few old sermons over and over around the world. Now his beholden good-old-boy network, his “friends” who rarely see the real Mahaney, function as his free P.R. team.
Slick. Sick, but slick.
I’m a longtime lurker here, and I really appreciate this blog and all you ladies have done to expose abuse and support the abused. I’m sorry if this is a silly question – does anyone know if CJ has ever publicly acknowledged any of the many complaints, the lawsuit, the allegations, or any of the (alleged) victims?
@ Never Again:
A brilliant commentary on the whole mess. When will the charade end?
@ Marge Sweigart:
Marge, If you look at the links Deb put in another thread to SBTS Magazine, toward the back it lists donors. CJ is personally named in the highest category.
I agree with Jeff Crippen. This is defintely a Matthew 6 situation where eyes in the pew saw it made a big deal of at SBTS chapel.
And this, my friends, is why I hammer on reading the Gospels over and over and over. You will pick up on such things right away. I read them over and over for 3 pyears with no filters of someone else explaining things to me or interpreting for me. Amazing what the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to and you can spot the wolves, hirings and charalatans a mile away.
Sad is that our seminary students sitting there don’t pick up on such pharisetical displays.
For anyone who is interested…
The problem with the so-called discernment blogs
http://awomansfreedominchrist.com/the-problem-with-the-so-called-discernment-blogs/
Great pieces, Sallie. I’ve chimed in with my two cents over there.
SMG
Sallie @ A Woman’s Freedom in Christ wrote:
Good job, Sallie. It’s my first time to visit your blog. I’ll be back to read a lot more.
@ Beanie: Nope. In fact, when he got into a bit of hot water a year ago, he took off and hid at Mark Dever’s church for awhile, showing that “strong male leadership” looks a bit wussy.
@ dee:
“Jesus spent time with the regular people. The Pharisees spent time with one another. Now, which one do we want to be? Frankly, the regular people are far more fun!”
+++++++++++++
True. But, of course, it’s important to be able to tweet “The @SBTS President’s home, at night, at Christmastime. Good times with friends @albertmohler @CJMahaney.”
(as referenced in TWW 12/21/2012)
A little off topic– Is there a way to search out a poster’s name on here? Mr. H had previously written that he’d had some issues in an Acts 29 church. I was curious as to what happened there. Or, Mr. H, if you happen to be following, I’d be interested to hear your experiences. Thanks.
The next Big Box post is up.
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2013/05/26/whats-a-girl-to-do-tbb/
@ Sallie @ A Woman’s Freedom in Christ:
Sallie, good job! And I love the title; which may very well draw folks who want to preen over how evil and awful “discernment blogs” are. Or (this just occurred to me) those who are wondering exactly why they are so vilified and looking for clarification. And that latter group is just who needs to read your words! Thank you.
@ Anon 1:
I know that CJ gave them money himself. I just meant that this particular time, in front of all those people, he probably presented the check on behalf of SGM, probably along with a flowery “SGM is so honored and humbled to be gospel partners with such honorable humble gospelly men as those at this institution” speech. With tears, of course. I’m just guessing that he kept his personal contribution private.
Phoenix wrote:
Thanks, Phoenix! I’m curious to see how long it takes to get a reader off the search result “discernment blog.” And, yes, I purposely chose that title to draw people in. 🙂
Justin Taylor digs himself into a deeper hole: http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/05/26/justin-taylor-tweets-about-dialoging-with-a-divisive-person/
Nicholas wrote:
Nicholas, they pull the Titus 3 out on people all the time. Disagree? You are divisive. Bring up a negative truth? You are divisive.
I will just be glad when the peasants are smart enough not to fall for it and withhold their funds.
These people proof text their favorite defense passages all the time thinking everyone will believe they are applying it correctly. Sad part is, they believe it.
Marge Sweigart wrote:
If that check Mahaney presented to Al Mohler was on behalf of Sovereign Grace Ministries, I believe it demonstrates that he was indeed ‘in charge’ of SGM, especially since we are hearing testimonies from SGMers who had absolutely no idea that a portion of their contributions were being funneled to Southern Seminary. C.J. was the leader of the ‘apostolic team’ after all…
@ Deb:
Having been a member of the happiest place on earth for 34years I am aware of CJ and company giving checks to different ministries at times in the Sunday service. I think they would say how much they were giving. BUT if I had ever been aware of CJ giving that much money to Al Molher, SBC, that’s just more than over the top. It’s unimaginable. In my opinion it’s buying your way into something. I feel that it’s corruption. That’s why learning about it fron tww was one of my awakening moments.
Joy,
Did that occur before or after September 18, 2004 (when Mahaney passed the baton to Joshua Harris)?
@ Deb:
I can remember CJ giving checks to different ministries from pretty far back. Before Josh took over. I believe CJ controlled all the money from way back until now. I don’t know the facts though.
@Joy – this is off topic, but you asked in a previous thread if we knew each other. I think I was confusing you with your daughter. 🙂 I was in CLC as a single from 1983 – 2000. Dee has my email if you want to connect by email.
@ Joy Huff: Thanks Joy. I am wondering whether it was ever announced from the pulpit that Covenant Life Church gave an amount between $15,000 and $24,999 to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary to qualify as a "Sustaining Member".
Also, PDI gave Southern Seminary between $5,000 and $9,999 in 2002 (the same year it became SGM). These are trivial amounts to some, but it's a matter of principle…
@ Hester: Good stuff Hester, I sure appreciate all your work.
@ Nicholas: I think he may have been referring to my email to him. He is making an excuse for not dialoguing. Certain things do not apply if you are a “leader.”
@ dee:
Then in Taylor’s mind, a “divisive person” means anyone who is critical of what TGC and the Calvinista camp is doing.
http://counterthought.org/silence-is-fools-gold/
While this doesn’t explicitly mention SGM it is a wonderful exposition of the virtue of speaking out.
@ Phoenix:
That is a great article Phoenix. Thanks for linking to it.
It’s sad that the majority of church members believe, and are even taught, the exact opposite concept. Instead of being taught to ask questions and speak about injustices, they are taught to suffer wrongs and be silent. Suffering wrongs and keeping silent about abuse in the church is portrayed, and taught, as being more godly and Christlike. It’s disgusting the way scripture is being twisted for ungodly gain. Unfortunately, there are many church leaders that are masters of deception.
Nicholas wrote:
As in
Counter-Revolutionary Bourgeois Reactionism…
Thoughtcrime…
Heresy…
dee wrote:
Using MD as a type example, “strong male leadership” means strutting around like a young gamecock crowing “I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!”
Getting back to the topic of this post.
SARCASM
This is an interesting concept. It is one that I use personally. But when used with people who don’t know you personally it can be mistaken as criticism, taunting, meanness, or just plain bad manners. And on the internet without visual and vocal facial cues it just gets easier for it to be mistaken for something else.
Two comments were removed this week due to some mis-understanding about sarcasm. So to try and avoid this in the future here’s a suggestion.
Preface your comment with [Sarcasm ON] and end it with [Sarcasm OFF].
Some people will find this silly as to them it seems obvious when sarcasm is in play. But trust me, and blog moderaters everywhere, it is rarely obvious to everyone.
GBTC
Great suggestion! I've seen that technique used very effectively.
@ GuyBehindtheCurtain:
Good call there.
Another weapon in the fight * against unnecessarily broken relationships and needlessly escalating cyber-spats is the willingness to apologise when it becomes clear that someone is offended by something you’ve written, AND THEN, EQUALLY, when someone apologises to you, close the loop by accepting the apology. I’ve seen this happen more than once on TWW and it’s a very strong force for good. Moreover, it takes courage and character (as distinct from gospel™ manliness).
* “fight” may seem an odd metaphor but it’s deliberate – good relationships have to be fought for, as you know.
Hmm… just been deleterated. I’m not sure why, unless a word beginning with “f” and rhyming with “light” is also in the warning-list. Which I’d understand.
Nick
Actually, it was the word “weapon.” We have no problem with the way you use it but the stupid word check will boot it. I still want to keep that on th list. I am a bit paranoid these days and I dont want to miss a comment by a troll who wants to get us in trouble.
Dee, I’m glad you and Deb are staying on the safe side. I would rather see my comment deleted than see the purpose of it defeated by misunderstanding or misrepresentation.
Re: CJM giving such large amounts so early on, makes me wonder if he didn’t always have a plan b or c in place in case things didn’t go as he wanted it to, or perhaps, simply looking for possible stepping stones to the way up? Just wondering, not accusing. Smart business people run a tight ship and think ahead.
GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:
If I had to do this on my own blog, I’d just have to shut it down 🙂 I’ll try to comply here.
I was reminded of this statement by Voltaire. It may resonate with others here:
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” ~Voltaire
@ Barb Orlowski:
We’ll have to use that quote! So true…
Julie Anne wrote:
LOL!!!
This may be a little off topic. But are you all aware that the Knoxville SGM church has a campus outreach called Volunteers for Christ? The last I heard they had at least 15 interns that collected support money from friends and family so that they could spend all of their time on the campus “reaching out.” They focus all of their time on welcome week at the beginning of the school year and have booths all around campus encouraging people to fill out cards to get their phones numbers and info. They “contact” these people and invite them to bible studies (which they renamed to something a little less obvious). Actually 15 years ago when I was a freshman, they did not have that many interns but they encouraged their student members to become resident assistants in the dorm rooms. That is how I was sucked in. My RA was a member of the church and when my air conditioner broke I went to her room to ask her to get it fixed. She invited me to the campus meeting and a bible study. I had grown up in church and I was looking for friends and a place to belong. So I went to a meeting and the rest is history. The brainwashing and the mind control took over. I was very vulnerable. I was trapped in that church for 13 years. Thankfully I got out about 2 years ago. But I can’t get past the fact that other freshman are being lured in like I was. I didn’t realize as a freshman that groups like this existed and I thought a university was a “safe” place. Boy was I wrong. I have tried to contact the campus but they say that VFC is not affiliated with the university. It is not one of their listed religious organizations. Have you heard of any other stories like mine? Has anything been done to stop it on other campuses? Thanks for your help.
Michelle wrote:
Michelle — This is a good cautionary tale. All of us who have friends going to college need to warn them about campus groups. SGM isn’t the only high-control authoritarian group that focuses on universities. One student I know accidentally joined a highly authoritarian campus group her freshman year. Thankfully, we had discussed the traits of controlling Christian groups. I helped her develop an exit plan when she wanted to get out.
Those campus leaders attended a 9Marks church. It’s helpful to research the 9 Marks church list near the university, as well as the usual list of cult groups.
I’m happy to say she found a healthy vibrant Christian fellowship on campus and spent the rest of her college career there.
@ Janey…Yes, I agree that we need to warn our college friends. I am so glad that the student in your story was able to get out early on and that she has a happy ending to her story!
dee wrote:
Fair enough – I’ll avoid the word “weppun”! Quite understandable. You did indeed have some problems with a troll in a recent thread, who demonstrated no purpose other than to stir up argument and strife and whose last post addressed one of the regulars (can’t remember whom) with the phrase “You really hate me, don’t you?”, a false accusation that I think the troll was desperate to try and make true. We all know who I mean. I admire your patience, actually – I’d have horsed all his comments quite early on!
Moxie wrote:
Hi Moxie,
I’ve debated for while if and how I should share specifics about my experiences with Acts 29. I will share a little bit here. I’m still considering providing a more detailed account, but the situation is, of course, “complicated.”
My wife and I attended an Acts 29 church for several years. It was a relatively new plant, which is an important detail in that we often fell back on the “youth” of the church as an explanation for some of the strange things that we saw and experienced. Prior to this, I had no exposure to, or experience with, the Neo-Reformed/YRR crowd. I wasn’t even clear on what “Reformed” meant – I grew up in a small, independent Bible church and so I just assumed that “Reformed” was just an awkward way of saying “non-Catholic.” 🙂
I can look back and recognize that many of the reasons that my wife and I were drawn to the church all came down to the same basic idea: the church was reacting against many of the negative trends that arose within the seeker-driven culture of the 80s and 90s. A couple of examples:
1) One of the initial things that appealed to my wife and I was the church’s overt passion for the arts. She and I both come from an artistic background, and had never been to a church that was so careful to do certain things well (music, film, decor, etc.).
2) Another appealing feature was the intense intimacy cultivated. This later became uncomfortable and dysfunctional, but initially it was refreshing to experience such openness and honesty and intimacy with our fellow church members. We were used to slightly more superficial, “see you on Sundays” relationships at our former big, seeker-driven church.
Long story short: over time, lots of little red flags were raised. Some of the highlights (not intended to be inclusive):
1) none of the pastors had any formal theological or pastoral education. (The lead pastor, I believe, only received his GED and did not even complete any undergraduate work). This lack of experience and education was concerning in general, but also most evident in specific areas, such as:
i) pulpit ministry: the head pastor’s sermons were terrible and he displayed little ability to responsibly handle exegesis and exposition. most of his sermons were basically personal essays that used Scripture to proof-text what he said.
ii) pastoral ministry: the pastors/elders were all inexperience and untrained, and I would even go so far as to say ungifted (in a spiritual sense) in the area of pastoral care. they consistently mishandled sensitive situations and thus fostered an atmosphere of awkwardness.
2) related to the first point: not only did the pastors severely lack experience and training, but they refused to acknowledge this. they acted as though experience and training were unimportant in terms of qualifications for ministry – they felt that simply focusing on personal holiness was sufficient for leadership (based on their poor exegesis of passages in the pastoral epistles). Even worse, when anyone in the church would point out their mistakes, or try to advise them in certain things, they would become defensive and, occasionally, hostile. Several times I expressed concern about the lead pastor’s inability to faithfully exegete and preach Scripture, and was severely “rebuked” my elders who told me that I “should support the pastor and encourage him, not be critical of him.”
3) So, the pastors/elders were uneducated, inexperienced, young, and defensive about all of the above. In addition, they were extremely secretive. Much of the direction of the church was decided behind closed doors among the 6 or 7 elders. The congregation was simply informed what was going to happen. This pattern occurred many, many times, primarily because the elders kept having to change strategies, programs, etc. because they had little idea how to do ministry or run a church. When lay members would try to offer input or express concern, they were labelled as “divisive” or “critical” or “untrusting” or some other “sinful” label, and asked to repent.
4) The leaders seemed to thrive on provocation. I don’t know why (perhaps a desire for attention) but they would consistently say inappropriate, rude, insensitive things and they would discuss awkward topics like sex, etc. in public (pulpit and also small groups).
5) Everyone was young. Very young. Many were college-aged (18-22) and none were older than 35. At first this was somewhat appealing, in the sense that it was very easy to relate to one another, given that we were all at similar life stages, with similar hopes, concerns, etc. Over time, however, we began to crave the fellowship, wisdom, and experience of older folks. When we expressed this concern, we were told that the church “would do church the way we want, and if older folks don’t want to be a part of it, we can’t make them.” And then we were essentially told to stop complaining.
6) The church was obsessed with sin. It was all we talked about, all the time. We often found ourselves dreading Sunday worship because the services were 90%: “We are all so horrible – we suck, suck, suck. We are disgusting. Gross . . .” and 10% “But we are lucky that God loves us.” Very little focus on actually worshipping God, delighting in him, etc. The focus of the services were consistently self-focused, but in a very self-deprecating, condemning way. (In hindsight, I can say that this was probably the result of a typical YRR misunderstanding and misapplication of the concept of Total Depravity).
7) The church was time consuming and inward-focused. They had no formal outreach strategy, other than calling members to “make friends and invite them to church.” Ironically, my wife and I spent so much time and energy at required church functions (generally 3 events per week that could add up to around 10 hours total) that we didn’t ever really have time to develop meaningful relationships outside of church (we also both work well over 40 hrs/week in our professions).
So, these warning signs caused us concern, but we tended to see them as unrelated hiccups that are normal in a young church rather than connected symptoms of larger problems. We had no knowledge of the Neo-Reformed/YCC crowd and so had no cause to be suspicious of any deeper, foundational, systematic issues.
For us, the breaking point was actually made up of two separate incidents. For now, I’ll hold back the details and continue to prayerfully consider whether or not to reveal more later. I will say that these incidents served to magnify a number of the symptoms and to help us see that they were not unrelated “hiccups” but rather symptoms of deeper, serious problems. I will also say that the incidents involved spiritual abuse, and I will say that this abuse was caused by a volatile mix of: an authoritarian culture, a pathological obsession with authority vs. submission, an extreme lack of maturity, experience, and training on the part of the elders, and some unaddressed/unacknowledged mental health issues among the elders.
After the two incidents, my wife and I were absolutely blown away. We didn’t know what to do. I discovered that our lead pastor had no formal accountability to anyone other than the elders he appointed and trained. I asked him if I could go to someone above him, and he said that Acts29 doesn’t use that sort of a hierarchical structure.
It was in the process of trying to find a way to address these incidents that I found TWW and the wonderful, caring, refreshing ministry of Dee and Deb and the rest of the community here. I began to read about other people’s experiences in Mars Hill/Acts29 communities, and the similarities were so striking that it became impossible not to acknowledge that our (my wife and I) experience was part of a much deeper, wider, systematic problem: a bunch of young, inexperienced, uneducated “pastors” whose only model for ministry is the dysfunctional paradigm of Mark Driscoll: high desire for fame/attention/affirmation, reckless, unskilled, and sometimes manipulative handling of Scripture, pathological obsession with authority and control, extreme paranoia of “divisiveness/rebellion,” obsession with sin-sniffing, etc.
In the end, we tried to lovingly call out the elders, and to their credit they did seem to realize that they made some big mistakes. Unfortunately, they never fully came clean and instead gave partial apologies. And even these partial apologies seemed to be framed so as to partially blame us, the victims. Paraphrase: “We’re sorry you were offended by what happened. We should have been more careful with you. We now know how delicate and sensitive you are.”). We felt that their explanations and apologies were incomplete and that they either (a) weren’t fully aware of how they messed up or (b) they were refusing to admit the fullness of their misconduct. So, we continued to lovingly push back and seek the full truth (along with other church members who came to our defense).
Eventually, the elders made it clear that they were done with the situation. They told us that we couldn’t tell anyone else about it, because that would be “gossip” and it would create “divisiveness.” Soon after, the elders issues a brand new batch of official church documents, including:
(a) a manifesto outlining, among many untrue and inappropriate things, how church members need to suck it up and quit whining about the elders. The document also that no one in the church should speak critically about any leader, and that no one should “gossip” which was defined as “saying anything negative about anyone.”
(b) a new church covenant detailing extensive requirements for submission, agreement, etc.
These documents obviously concerned us. In one sense, they felt like a slap in the face. Additionally, they indicated to my wife and I that the elders had learned absolutely nothing from their abuse of us and were unwilling or unable (perhaps due to their own personal and professional deficiencies?) to change.
It was at this point that we decided to leave the church. It was a very sad and awkward experience because we still had good relationships with the regular members, none of whom had wronged us in any way. (None have since tried to stay in touch). It just so happened that my wife and I were transitioning to a different location around this time, and so we ended up using that as our primary reason for leaving the church, although I did tell the elders that the recently released documents greatly concerned me. To this day, I still sometimes feel that I may have taken the cowardly way out by blaming our departure from the church primarily on our move.
Well, this post ended up being longer than I expected – my apologies. I hope it at least helpful for you, and for anyone else who may be recovering from (or still going through!) a painful Acts29 experience.
Moxie, if you’re interested in speaking more, I’m certainly willing to do so, perhaps through email? I’m definitely interested to hear about your experiences. The more I hear about Acts 29, the more I come to see a pattern: the well-documented problems and dysfunction at Mars Hill seem to be replicated in quite a number of Acts 29 churches.
Mr.H wrote:
Ah yes. More and more common now than in the 70s and before. We’re in charge, you are followers. Follow our wisdom. Even if we don’t show/have any.
Mr.H wrote:
At least you got out! There's no need to feel cowardly. I am glad that you found an online community that understands what you experienced. Thanks for sharing your story. I know it will help others who may also be trapped in a similar church situation.
Mr.H wrote:
Mr.H wrote:
You were put into a no win situation. You assume that they will be moved by your concerns. They will not be. They don’t want to hear your concerns. If they did, they would have done so.
The fact that no one kept in touch is proof of this. It is important to leave in a way that minimizes damage to your family first. Then, if you have any energy left over, after you have left, tell ’em what you think.
However the thing that they hate most is anyone writing about it. They thrive on secrecy. So, you can write about what happened and have it vetted by the community of believers. They cannot hide from the critique. This is why abusive churches are so opposed to blogging. They are being held accountable and that is most challenging.
If you would ever like to tell you story in the form of a post let us know.
@ Mr.H:
“The document also that no one in the church should speak critically about any leader, and that no one should “gossip” which was defined as “saying anything negative about anyone.””
+++++++++++++++++
like a warm pool of water, in a water balloon tied tight in the fist of who’s at the top.
Mr. H, thank you for your very honest description. Amazing how traumatizing these things are. Concerning “church”, no less.
Makes life everywhere else feel so uncomplicated and healthy. Once I extricated myself from my own dysfunction central, i was completely taken by surprise at how many very healthy and rewarding friendships I formed (church-free). And how much peace and plain ol’ happiness i have experienced.
Lynn wrote:
Indeed! This was one of the more difficult obstacles for me. I’m very pragmatic – sort of a “show me, don’t tell me” kind of approach. So it was quite difficult for me to continually be asked to trust the leadership despite little or no evidence of their competency.
Deb wrote:
Thank you, Deb. We really appreciate the time and effort that you and Dee invest into this community.
dee wrote:
You made this offer when we first “met” and I have been seriously considering it since then. I’ll keep you posted. In the meantime, I’m just thankful to read and share and be a part of TWW.
elastigirl wrote:
We feel the same way! After we left, a tremendous weight was lifted. We began to feel so much healthier and happier in the weeks and months after our departure. This was also a little disturbing, because it highlighted just how dark and oppressive things were, and how slowly and subtly we had been negatively influenced. We look back now and often say to each other, “Can you believe that??”
@ Mr.H:
“We feel the same way! After we left, a tremendous weight was lifted. We began to feel so much healthier and happier in the weeks and months after our departure. This was also a little disturbing, because it highlighted just how dark and oppressive things were, and how slowly and subtly we had been negatively influenced.”
+++++++++++++++
yes, disturbing. has it made you wonder, “just what is the purpose of church, then? beyond creating jobs, and attracting people to give the staff something to do?”
has it been disturbing in that sense??
elastigirl wrote:
Yes, yes, and yes, if by “church” you mean “the modern North American model of church.”
I don’t, however, feel disturbed by the concept of the qahal/ekklesia as I see it explained in Scripture, though. 🙂 I’ve really enjoyed the work of guys like Alan Hirsch and Frank Viola in that they really try to offer some healthy correctives to what “church” has come to mean for many North Americans, and in that their passion is to encourage the return of the original purpose of church, beyond the religious-industrial-complex that it has become (to borrow a concept and phrase from Eisenhower).
@ Mr.H:
i need some remedial help here. remind me what the original purpose of church is?