You have suffered grievously and I am truly sorry. I know that nothing can undo the wrong you have endured. Your trust has been betrayed and your dignity has been violated. We are all scandalised by the sins and failures of some of the Church's members. Pope Benedict XVI link
Notice: Alleged Victims to appear on WJLA- ABC -Channel 7 in Washington DC, Thursday 5 PM
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Trigger Alert
Graphic Description
Note to attorneys-put the word "alleged" in front of every word of the post!
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The Second Amended SGM lawsuit has created a firestorm. The word "horrific" is the descriptor that shows up in posts, reactions and tweets. Today I want to look at the particulars of the story of Heather Thompson Bryant(beginning at #56 in the amendment) and then respond to some concerns that have been raised about her testimony.
Heather's dad was a SGM pastor. When she was 3 years old, in 1984, Stephen Griney, a kindergarten teacher and head of the Children's Ministry program at CLC, began to victimize her. This continued when she became a kindergarten student in his class as school. These acts would take place in a school coat closet and in the stage curtains in the gym.
In 1986, Griney, along with his wife, Denise, began to host sleepovers at their house. Heather was given a drink which made her groggy. He carried her downstairs, stripped off all of her clothes, except her underpants, and tied her to a pole. Mark Hoffman, a Child Ministries teacher entered the room. They (both) stripped off her panties and performed oral sex on her, while alternately screaming at her and then saying she was a good girl.
They placed a feather boa and pearls on her and made her pose for them. At this point, light flashed, as if a camera was being used and there appeared to be a third person in the room. Griney then raped Heather and, along with Hoffman wiped her off and carried her back upstairs to go to sleep.
Hoffman became a babysitter for Heather, and continued to molest her. The next year at school, Griney's wife, Denise, became her teacher. She allowed her husband to remove Heather from the class during the day. During these times, he would molest her and told her she had to obey him because he "owned" her. When Heather repeated 1st grade at home, Griney and Hoffman had access to her through the Children's Ministry program and continued to victimize here.
In 1988, the Thompson family traveled to Indiana for an SGM conference called Celebration. Heather was taken from her room to a room with 15 children and some adults wearing masks. The names of some of the children present are being withheld until a ruling from the judge. During this time, she was raped by Griney and Hoffman while other children yelled at her.
When she returned to second grade, the victimization by Griney and Hoffman decreased. Heather believes that they preferred girls in kindergarten and first grade. She reports that she was brought to a band room in which some boys were told to push her and humiliate her because boys should dominate girls.
Dave Mayo, an assistant to the pastor for New Members babysat for her and victimized her. At the age of 10, she was once again victimized by Hoffman. It was during this time, she formed her first suicidal thought. (ends at #85).
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Speculations on Heather's emotional well-being
At this point, I want to make a few remarks. I have been reading some comments around the Internet which cast aspersions on Heather, basically accusing her of being "unstable." My thoughtful, well-trained answer to that is "Well, Duh!" Most children form their basic attachments and security by the age of 5 years old. Assuming that the "alleged" accusations are accurate (and I believe that they are for many reasons), Heather began to be victimized at the age of 3! Read that again, 3 years old! She had her first suicidal thought at the age of 10! This is a child at high risk for all sorts of struggles. To disparage her in any way is callous and thoughtless. I beg all people to treat her with love, kindness and respect while eschewing the role armchair psychologist.
I want to say this loud and clear. Heather is normal because she struggled. She would be considered abnormal if she floated through life after such a rough start. Today, I spoke with an individual who knows her. She says that she is a beautiful, strong and well-spoken women who freely speaks of her troubles and how she overcame them through counseling. Apparently she is going to be a fine witness and I would be shaking in my boots if I were one of her alleged victimizers.
Cognitive Dissonance
A number of people have expressed disbelief that certain pastors could ever commit such heinous acts. I find it interesting that people who believe in the "total depravity of man" doubt that such depravity can be found in "nice" people. At the end of the post, I have included the You Tube video of a neighbor of Ariel Castro, the man who imprisoned 3 women for 10 years. This neighbor was in shock because he used to "eat ribs" with Castro.
I think it is hard for us to contemplate that we were wrong in our assessment of a person. Many of us, myself included, believe that we have some special insight into the heart of people. Surely, we should be able to spot a monster. A monster could never be a pastor, especially one who spoke out against all sort of sins and who I admired and followed. It is a little difficult to look at a pile of notes that we took while listening to a gifted preacher, only to later discover that he was a charlatan.
Folks, we are not infallible. We can be duped. Pedophiles target trusting, nice people. They can smell them a mile away. They seek out those who will let them have access to their kids so they volunteer to babysit (a big factor in this lawsuit) or to lead children's ministries. They hang out in schools and at kids sporting events. They love to do sleepovers and summer overnight camps. Some of them like to be clowns that perform at children's parties.
In fact, Mark Hoffman, one of the alleged victimizers of Heather, moonlights as a clown.
5/16- update The clown company verified that Hoffman is one and the same and have removed him from their site so the original post is now restored.
Here is a self description that was posted by Kris at SGM Survivors link. I find it chilling.
Hi! It’s Mark Hoffman, Oops the Clown and Mr. Funnyman. I have been performing stage shows and doing children’s entertainment for 25 years. When I started I was emceeing, creating and performing skits, giving object lessons and puppet shows for large events up to 600 kids. About 15 years ago I began doing parties, shows, and corporate events as Oops the Clown or Mr. Funnyman (festive costume, balloon hat, no make-up). I perform in Northern Virginia, Maryland and DC.
I believe I have been given a gift to make people (especially children) laugh. Of the many gifts I have, the one I think that has the most effect on my entertainment is my gift of discernment. I have a very strong ability to read people, and be able to adjust my style accordingly Give me a few minutes with most kids and I can win them over, no matter what makes them tick. They will be smiling and maybe even laughing hard by the time our interaction is done. When I am making a balloon or painting a face, I don’t want anyone to walk away with just a balloon in their hand or their face looking cool. I want them to have had a special experience with someone who they now feel a connection with. I want them to leave the event or party saying “That was the most fun I have ever had at a party!”
The events where I can connect with another person are my favorite types of events. It gives me a big rush and it motivates me to get more of that reaction. So, if you want a balloon or a kid face painted and that’s all, call someone who throws on a costume or does those things only to make money. If you want the kids (and adults) at your event to have their own special moment of laughter and joy, think about having Oops the Clown or Mr. Funnyman come to your event. Also know that my experience with About Faces is that they strive to bring on only the entertainers like me. So, if I am not available, check out some of their other fun characters. Many of them are my friends and mentors.
Here is another comment at that same link about Griney "The Tickle Monster."
magruderhighdays
May 15th, 2013 at 5:21 pmAnother tidbit about the defendant “Mr. Griney”. As a kid and growing up, we were always told that Mr. Griney was the “tickle monster” and that he would come tickle you all over your body if you were wearing a striped shirt(or were not not wearing a striped shirt…it was one of the two, can’t remember exactly). Kids would always be scared that you were going to be “tickled” by mr. griney if you saw him. I remember seeing many instances of him tickling little kids all over because of this “fun rule” he had. In fact, I myself was tickled by him on 1 or 2 occasions.
All these accusations against him are now very fitting and make sense from my memories of him. Very disturbing to say the least.
TWW unashamedly stands with the alleged victims in this lawsuit.
We must be careful when we openly doubt children who claim to have been abused. Most children do not lie about such things. By expressing disbelief, we can contribute to the pain and turmoil of the victim. In fact, the opposite is usually true. Most predators lie about their activities. Link. It is also important to take into consideration the claims of many victims within a given environment. In my opinion, there are similarities in some of these accounts that cause me to believe the victims.
As we have seen, SGM and CJ Mahaney have received widespread support from the supposed leaders of the Neo-Calvinist movement. Few of them have expressed any concern for the pain of the victims. Since they have seen it fit to appear at SGM and other conferences with SGM pastors, speak at SGM churches, and extol their books, I have decided that TWW will do just the opposite. We stand firm with the victims and choose to believe them. If any of them are reading this, know that Deb and I pray for you, defend you and believe you.
TWW's Prime Directive: A Review
In light of the pain of the alleged victims and, in anticipation, of criticism of the victims, we will be diligently applying this directive in the coming days. If any comments disparage the alleged victims, we will delete them without warning.
The Prime Directive: This is the most important term on our blog. Violators of this directive will be looked upon as ideologues, pumping up their particular idol- be it theological or human. This directive states the following: All commenters must acknowledge the pain some people have experienced at the hand of pastors and churches which overemphasize a particular doctrine or which apply harsh and capricious discipline or cover up child abuse. TWW exists, in part, to provide understanding in this area. We are dead serious about this (even though it is based on a concept from Star Trek).
A Crack in TGC's Silence
Today, Jared C Wilson, a TGC blogger, tweeted the following:
jaredcwilson @jaredcwilson9h
The allegations in the newly amended SGM lawsuit are horrific. Let's remember the state does not wield the sword in vain.
Perhaps some consciences are being pricked? Hopefully he will not stand alone. This lawsuit is becoming larger and more horrific as time passes. There are a number of Neo-Calvinist men who have made all sorts of glowing statements about the fitness of CJ Mahaney as a leader. In the same breath, many of them have disparaged concerned bloggers as troublemakers who dislike strong leadership. In the days to come, many people may have cause to question the discernment skills of the self-proclaimed leaders of this movement.
Lydia's Corner: 2 Samuel 7:1-8:18 John 14:15-31 Psalm 119:33-48 Proverbs 15:33
Did SGM only seek pedophiles to work in their ministries? I’ve never of so many sickos congregated in one place!!!! HORRID!!!
“At this point, I want to make a few remarks. I have been reading some comments around the Internet which cast aspersions on Heather, basically accusing her of being “unstable.” My thoughtful, well-trained answer to that is “Well, Duh!”
Thank you. Thank you. common sense is not so common, ya know?
Here is a tip for folks. Children who have been abused are not always cowering in corners. They act out. Believe it or not, girls who have been sexually molested will often become quite sexually active very early. People who are isolated from this often do not understand the reaction to sexual abuse is often the opposite of what you would expect. I am not making a univeral rule here so please understand that how children respond behavorially can be different than what you expect.
In many ways the “unstable” accusation is used quite a bit by those in power. I saw it used all the time with people who had disagreements with leadership in the mega industrial complex. It was as if saying it simply planted enough seeds of poison to do the trick….marginalize before you know the whole story.
“In fact, the opposite is usually true. Most predators lie about their activities.”
Needs to be highlighted, bolded.
Deb & Dee,
THANK YOU so much for drawing attention to this. Unless someone has walked alongside an abuse survivor or is one, they can not possibly make a call about the ramifications of the abuse and how it plays out in the lives of these traumatized children who are now adults. What’s puzzling to me is that for years, SGM Survivors, SGM Refuge and TWW have provided a forum for the victims of not only sex abuse, but mental, emotional and spiritual abuse from SGM, why when these horrific allegations are now made public are people at all surprised and are NOW doubting these victims??????
Reading the second amended lawsuit today, I could not help but constantly wonder – why aren’t all of these people in prison? The thing is so vast that I haven’t been able to follow the entire case from the beginning, so perhaps some have been convicted and imprisoned – at least one was as I read in the lawsuit document. But apparently not for very long, as he was welcomed back by his church. Did the statute of limitations run out? Why, in addition to this civil lawsuit, aren’t there criminal prosecutions happening?
Something I cannot stress enough:
SUCCESSFUL PEDOPHILES AND SUCCESSFUL SOCIOPATHS ARE MASTERS AT CAMOUFLAGING WHAT THEY REALLY ARE. IF THEY WEREN’T, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN EXPOSED AND CAUGHT LONG AGO.
And its corollary: We only hear about the ones dumb enough to get caught.
Having grown up with a probable sociopath in my immediate family, I can attest that there is nobody as Concerned as a sociopath, as Compassionate as a sociopath, as Polite as a sociopath, as Nurturing as a sociopath, as NICE as a sociopath. Until the instant you have Outlived Your Usefulness.
Robin wrote:
Once a few got into position, Like would hire Like.
And their Doctrine was Correct, and that was all that mattered.
Shades of John Wayne Gacy….
Their Doctrine is Correct, their Theology is Perfectly Parsed down to the letter, their Ideology is Pure, and that is all that matters.
Jeff, Do you realize that SGM actually gave a dad who molested his daughter a heads up that authorities were told by a family member (against pastor wishes) and helped him with legal defense? That is how seriously they took covering up and “male authority”.
Are you familiar with how a shepherding cult works? If you become familiar, you will know why this went on so long and why folks were so silent and even when they spoke out blogs, many were willing to take it to AoR first. Why? They really thought Mahaney and co would repent? Admit it? Say sorry? Yes, I think many really thought that. I think many of them really believed it was the right thing to do instead of calling a lawyer. And they were rebuffed and disrespected….AGAIN.
I thought it was ridiculous to bother with AoR which I think were bought and paid for by SGM. And think of all the big names that basically exonerated Mahaney in that movement: Trueman, Ortlund, Mohler, Piper, Dever, etc, etc. That would intimidate anyone who looks to man.
In a shepherding cult, there is this compliance with leadership teaching even when you know they are wrong. This inability to realize that THEY are the ones who are sinning by taking such heinous crimes so lightly and claiming the victim is just as bad a sinner as the perp……. but you still feel like you are a sinner and gossip for even mentioning it because that is how you are taught. And if you do tell people, no one beleives you because eveyone has been taught to revere the leaders and the men. And why would an educated person go along with a pastor who says we handle this in house? Because they have been trained to believe the leaders are right and care for your soul. And you are honored to be able to be a part of this great place.
This was part of the reason I had to quit reading over at sgmsurvivors blog. It made me uncomfortable for how long so many bloggers were waiting around and “praying” for their leaders to repent. As if they could still be their leaders if they just said, sorry. I am thnking….they are not your leaders! They are not qualified to tie your shoes! But that is how immersed they were in this doctrine of authoritarianism. CJ Mahaney was constantly quoting Hebrews 13:17 when I was checking him out. He was constantly talking about leadership.
It is brainwashing to a cultic degree. The reason people miss it is because SGM folks are educated and middle class for the most part. Hey, I fell for the mega industrial complex gig so I have no room to talk. It is so weird when you get enough distance from something to really see it for what it is and process why you believed what you did, etc. You soon realize you cannot even begin to explain it to a person who is still in the middle of it. It can take years to get that brainwashing out.
Brent Detwiler, at his blog, thinks there will be more who end up serving jail time.
SGM is an anomly to my thinking. It is made up of the educated middle class who followed an “Apostle” who only had a high school education. It just does not look like a cult one from the outside.
@ Jeff Crippen: According to Brent Detwiler (on his Facebook), criminal investigations are being conducted. He says "They must and are investigating John Loftness for example. The same is true of numerous other individuals. There is still a lot that has not come out. In part because Defense lawyers are trying to suppress evidence. That's why the repeated reference in the 2nd amendment to 'name withheld pending court ruling on defense motion.'" He doesn't say what his source of information is, but I think he's probably right.
Dee,
Well stated. I abhor seeing victims re-victimized as appears to be happening to Heather.
I look forward to her having her day in court, and I am praying she will stay strong!
About that guy working as a clown at kid parties.
There was a similar story about a guy who was a puppeteer on a kid’s show who hurt kids, or wanted to. He also used to put on kid’s shows in churches.
(Story contains icky information):
Cannibal puppeteer who wanted to eat children caught in child pr0n chat room (July 2012)
Here’s another headline from an ABC news site:
“Largo puppeteer [Ronald Brown] arrested, accused of plotting to cook and eat children”
He had a web site (no longer up) for his puppet show, puppetsplus.com. You can still visit his site via Wayback Machine. I’ve looked at some pages – he was offering puppet classes to boy scouts and other kid-related groups.
@ Robin:
You said it more succinctly than I did on an older thread, but I wondered the same thing.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I posted about another guy, from Florida, a puppeteer who worked doing kid’s shows in churches and other places with kids, who got caught by the police online when he started writing about his violent fantasies against kids. (That post is sitting in moderation)
From my comment on The Spiritual Sounding Board blog: Some of the criminal offenses may still be within the statute of limitations in some jurisdictions. With sexual abuse of a child, the statutes are sometimes complex and include a period of time after the victim has reached adulthood. Some jurisdictions have somewhat open-ended time limits for some offenses. The specific acts and jurisdictions need to be researched before reaching a conclusion about whether time has precluded prosecution. In addition, in some jurisdictions, a willful cover up of a crime can extend the time frame.
And some mandatory reporting statutes do not put a time limit on the requirement to report, so that the obligation to report continues until a report is mad and thus, not reporting is a continuing criminal act into the present.
OOPS, report is made, not mad. Not reporting is prima facie evidence of being mad.
@ Marge Sweigart:
Foe instance, what is going on with Hoffman and Griney and Loftness?
Why haven’t Loftness and Laymen, and anyone else named in the allegations, been asked to take a leave of absence from their positions and the premises where children are present, until investigations have been completed?
@ Jeff Crippen: Rumor has it that there is some stuff going on in the background.
Anon 1 wrote:
Thank you, Anon 1. I was one of those branded “unstable” by my former minister when I resisted going along with their unscrupulous “plan” for the crisis my husband and I were in. Total. Hogwash.
Heather, all the backlash is par for the course. You will never hear an “I’m sorry” from people so callous to ignore your pain. I back you 100 percent.
That stuff about the clown and the Tickle Monster set all my alarm bells ringing. I wouldn’t necessarily assume “paedophile”, though that would always be aquestion mark for me, but NOBODY got to violate my children’s physical boundaries when they were children! Tickle “punishments” for children in a group situation like that are totally inappropriate — some kids love a bit of rough house, but other children hate it! And the minute an adult ignores a child’s reactions like that, my alarm bells go off!
As for the clown, wanting to give kids a good time is great. Wanting to make a special connection with each child is creepy, and at that point he is obviously doing it to meet his needs rather than the children’s. That is so unhealthy that my first question would be “Why isn’t he getting his emotional needs met in normal adult relationships?”
And HUG, Ihave a parent I strongly suspect of being a sociopath, so I hear you 100%. Those who have not had to live with such people cannot comprehend their depth of evil. No one else is a real person to them except themselves, everyone else is just an object to be used or discarded according to their purposes. They are persuasive liars because they really believe what they are saying, and the ability they have to impose their alternate reality on otherwise fairly normal people is .. intense. There really is a spiritual component to it, when you’ve come up against it you know, for ever and ever that the heart of evil is a terrible emptiness
Not that it changes anything as far as the facts go, but the “Celebrations” were held in Indiana, PA and not the state of Indiana.
Thank you. I read the comment on another blog about Heather being “unstable” and as a survivor myself, I was filled with a sort of vicarious shame, the same sort of shame that has kept me silent for many years. Then I was angry that someone would try to call into question the veracity of her claims by bringing up–if true–what are probably simply aftereffects of her trauma. I am in awe of the courage these survivors have, especially knowing that they would face accusations of being unstable and worse, and I hope they know that many, many people believe them.
I sometimes wonder if abusers go out of their way to create bizarre and unbelievable situations, with the sole intent of reducing their victims’ credibility. Most kids don’t lie about abuse, and those who tell and then recant, I suspect, do so under enormous pressure or guilt. I imagine abusers will go to any lengths to minimize their odds of being accused, punished, and stopped.
Sexual abuse + spiritual abuse + psychological abuse is the most horrendous, sadistic, soul-murdering kind of crime that deserves much worse punishment than our justice system can impose. I hope there is a hell, just for these kind of people.
“Well, Duh!”
That’s what I said when I first read the comment in question.
I think that person was an Eeyore type troll trying to discourage, plant doubt, and generally be a wet blanket.
Thanks, Dee, for plucking that weed.
I read the amended lawsuit this morning. I believe the allegations; children don’t make these things up. Even if only half of them were true, however, they are sickening.
I came to Christ in neo-Reformed circles, and gradually started reading people like Piper, Driscoll, and The Gospel Coalition bloggers. I’ve since stepped away to sort out my own issues with these circles, but I do have to say that over time the rhetoric about “godly authority” and “shepherding” began to seem more and more reasonable. It was only when I saw the system fail that I began to step back and process what had happened. These leaders seem to play on a sincere desire to “be biblical” and “love and serve God”–and then use these desires to serve their own ends.
Among other things, doctrine trumps love, despite these words from 1 John: “Beloved, let us love, for love is from God.” The abuse detailed in the lawsuit, the failure to report it, and the failure to do anything to prevent the accused from having anything to do with children is criminal. It is also a failure to love.
Incidentally, I’ve volunteered in nurseries and Sunday Schools at different churches in different states, and only one has asked for a background check. I will be teaching children part-time in the fall, and the secular institution I work for asked for a background check. I realize that background checks won’t catch offenders without a record, but even still, why don’t more churches ask for them? It’s ridiculous that churches don’t take the precautions that are second nature to secular institutions.
Megan wrote:
Just like the Communists, except they called it “Ideology” instead of “Doctrine”. Either way, it justified anything the regime wanted to do. Anything.
@ lemonaidfizz:
Another aspect of this is, for me, the defense mechanism of minimizaion. Basically, the mind tries to normalize the events – minimize them – in whatever way possible, so that the child can cope with day to living.
As the adult survivor, this can translate (with great help from bad theological teaching) into feeling guilty for speaking up – like you do not have the ‘right’ to ‘ruin’ someone’s life over things that happened so long ago and (here’s the minimization) weren’t that big of a deal, anyway. I still struggle with this. And it plays into the hands of the abusers and those who would rather not face the fact of abuse in their midst.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
+1,000,000
We need to drill this into our kids, friends, and families. The more power someone has, the more we should be suspicious of their true motives, whether politicians or church leaders. Christians need to stop being so naive and follow the admonition to “be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves.”
Megan wrote:
I participate in an activity that uses space at a Baptist church. We recently added child care and the church required all adults (but as far as I know, not minors) volunteering go through a background check. We also need two volunteers in the room. If only one is available, child care is canceled that night, or the sole volunteer watches the kids in the same room as the activity (but off to the side).
While I know backgrounds checks don’t catch many pedophiles, I am for precautions that make it less likely they stick around.
We’ve been attending a Methodist church and I think they require all children’s volunteers to have background checks and attend training. I haven’t looked into the specifics because we haven’t let our kids attend anything without us. Every time I start to think that maybe my oldest is old enough to try Sunday School, this lawsuit comes back up and makes me leery.
I sent a link to this post to a friend who had been considering visiting an SGM church a few months ago. When he told me, I blurted out, “No, don’t go there!” and launched into a ten minute tirade about the lawsuit. He looked it up a few days later and decide not to visit. (He didn’t like that Mahaney was reinstated so quickly after an investigation.)
My friend replied to my email about today’s post. He said he’s glad we talked about it before. I just wanted Dee and Deb to know that their efforts have saved at least one family from visiting SGM and getting sucked in (they have several friends at that church).
Dee – this is an excellent article. Thank you!
This part of the clown’s resume sent shivers down my spine:
He might as well have said: I am masterful at grooming your precious little children.
Julie Anne wrote:
Julie Anne, that caught my attention, too, and i agree with you. I think it was Martha Beck (a survivor but not SGM) who said in one of her books, “If you listen to the words people use, they will tell you what they are doing.” (paraphrase)
I think this is a clear example of that….
Dee, Deb, and Others:
Knowing what you now know, if your kids were young, instead of grown, what would you do to protect them from these monsters, without turning into helicopter parents who never let their kids do anything?
On the homeschooling forum I go to, there are a few people who go to the other extreme and are so busy protecting their kids from pedophiles (who they think lurk in every bush) that their kids might not get to develop normally. One woman mentioned that she doesn’t think it’s necessary, or safe, for parents to ever leave any of their kids home alone. This was as part of a discussion about when most kids are old enough to stay home alone, so if she meant kids under 13 (or whatever), she certainly could have said so. Instead, it sounds like she’ll may end up being one of those moms who doesn’t trust her teenager to keep from burning down the house or letting strangers in while she runs to the post office by herself.
We don’t get up early enough now to attend Sunday School, but even if we did, I’m not sure I’d let my kids go. Besides not wanting to leave them with strangers, I am inclined to think the teaching is either very shallow or that they might learn something I strongly disagree with. For example, I wouldn’t want my kids to pick up the view of God as an angry tyrant/dad that people at our previous church had. I’d rather they have little teaching outside of my poor attempts (consistency wise) than view God in a way that leads to them being hateful and judgmental of others, all while viewing their behavior as righteous and loving…
Here, in the Australian Anglican Church (and I think most major denoms), you cannot do anything with kids (not even take them to the kitchen to get a drink) unless you have attended a Child safety Course (and do an update every 3 years) and at the same time signed a form for a police check. There is even a requirement for teens helping with younger kids to do a version of the course just for them. The course includes the rules for not being alone with a child, no physical touch unless the child initiates it (obviously this is slightly different for the babies in creche) what to do if a child discloses anything (and, very important, what NOT to do) as well as keeping the environment physically safe. All pastors and leaders of ministries are mandatory reporters under Australian law.
Also, did you know that our Prime Minister recently launched a Royal Commission (i.e. official enquiry) into all child abuse in institutions?
@ Jeannette Altes:
Yes, a thousand times yes. Dissociation (which can certainly look “unstable”–probably why that comment triggered me) was my defense of choice as a child and young adult until I began recovery, but minimization is huge for me now, and for many survivors as you point out. Although I no longer follow the kinds of doctrinal teachings I grew up with, they become so ingrained in our minds (especially as children) that it seems almost impossible to outgrow the beliefs. Those who teach “don’t complain, stay sweet, it all happens for a reason” are only trying to ignore the pain around them by teaching the victims to ignore it in themselves. Would they minimize Jesus’s suffering on the cross? He cried out to his father, didn’t he? And Peter denied Him, just as these church leaders deny the pain of abuse victims.
When I first saw a comment regarding a victim’s instability, and the questioning of the memory of a three-year-old, it broke my heart. I posted the following on survivors:
“Regarding your comment about the instability of one of the plaintiffs — many people who’ve been through that kind of trauma would exhibit instability. I don’t know this person, but in my view, such instability might actually give more credence to allegations, not less. Anyone who has been through such abuse has every reason to be unstable. These victims have been through trauma that destroys the ability to trust anybody or anything for years, if not forever. Their ability to enjoy life has been stolen from them. Thankfully, we have a God who heals, but it seems nearly impossible to me for any of these victims to have come through psychologically unscathed.”
and
“…At this point, nothing any plaintiff or defendant says has been tested in court, and it’s too early to pronounce judgement, especially if such judgement is based on the personalities of the plaintiffs or defendants.
I remember very clearly things that happened when I was two and three years old, and have described things to my mom that were never talked about around me. She was astonished that I remembered.
One of my offspring remembers specific events from the time he was a year old that he was never told about, yet he has described them in detail.
Yet, some people I know can’t remember what they did or how they felt in high school. Memory is an interesting thing. Some victims block things out. Other victims wish they COULD block things out.
In the abuse case of an acquaintance, not at all related to SGM, the abused child acted out in sensual way for years, long before the abuse came to light, and long before she should’ve known of such things. At first, the people involved thought she was abused because she behaved in a grossly sensual manner — in other words, they thought she asked for it. But when the truth came out, it was clear that the abuse caused her to be sexually knowledgeable far beyond her years.(Please note: children who are younger than the age of consent never truly ‘ask for it’ — they are groomed, set up, and abused, even if they appear to be willing participants.)
Victims are not always likable and attractive, but that does not make them any less victim. Perps, on the other hand, are often likable.
Think of every case we’ve seen on TV. Friends, neighbors, and relatives of perps say, over and over again, ‘He’d be the last person you’d suspect. He was such a nice guy. Everyone thought the world of him…he’d do anything for you…’
Sometimes, even in the courtroom, the perpetratos are more attractive than the victims. Sadly, some of them have gotten away with murder because they are so good with people. I know I’m blowing the same horn over and over again, but please, read the book “Perpetrators” by Anna Salter. Thanks.”
These victims have been through unspeakable horrors. The only thing we have to offer them is compassion.
Every person I saw interviewed in the Arial Castro situation said pretty much the same thing — ‘he was such a nice guy.’ In almost every similar situation or even when serial killers have been arrested, the same theme echoes throughout the comments of friends and neighbors. “He’d be the last person you’d think would do such a thing.”
And what was the reaction of the 911 Dispatcher when the caller said she was Amanda Berry and had been held for ten years? It was pretty clear he/she was skeptical. Not one ounce of compassion in the reaction or voice. Yet, because this situation was uncovered virtually in front of the entire world, nobody has doubted the victims. And I haven’t heard one single comment blaming the victims. Because the truth was there in living color, the public has had to accept that these horrible acts happened. Yet, in the SGM cases, because these victims have carried secret scars for so long, they are somehow seen as less than credible. This is horrible.
I’ve read that our brains have a very difficult time processing such information because of the cognitive dissonance involved in knowing perps and thinking of them as great people.
I wish we could still see people through Pollyanna’s eyes, but it should be clear by now that perpetrators have played us for fools. Perpetrators will always lie. Victims don’t. Why are we more willing to believe perpetrators who live double lives and construct elaborate lies than their victims?
My heart goes out to every victim. Not only are there primary victims, but their families and friends have also been victimized. The families of the perps have also been victimized.
Some people tend to think that all perps were victimized as kids. Some were. Some were not. I have read that many, many victims do NOT become perpetrators and do NOT perpetuate the cycle of abuse. Praying that every victim will be set free from this horror.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Hi. Commenting from a counselor’s perspective again here.
This statement is very true. Sociopaths are master manipulators. They are unable to feel empathy and seek only self gratification. Generally, they are some of the most suave, charming, persuasive people you could ever meet. They’re also very narcissistic and have a grandiose self worth, often thinking that they are superior to the rest of humanity, and feeling as if they have the absolute right to use others as simple tools to meet their needs.
Because of their total lack of empathy for others, as well as an overriding need to demonstrate their self-proclaimed dominance, they have no qualms about preying on others. If anything, they feel that victimization of those “weaker” than them is totally justified. Furthermore, because they lack emotional bonds, they can become many things to many people. Need to look holy? No problem. They’ll come across as very holy. Need to look repentant? No problem. Need to look like a good husband? Easy.
It’s scary. Luckily, they are rare people. But they DO usually pair up with like-minded people or seek to influence others to do their will.
Anyway.
One of the first thing I was ever told as part of my formal training to work with abused children was that 99 out of 100 times, they are telling the truth. The best thing ever you can do is thank them for trusting you and for telling you what happened. Affirm them. They do not lie about those things. Children are guileless. They’re not going to know what abuse is unless they’ve been exposed to it.
So thank you, those of you that have come forward, for telling the world about what happened to you. You are in my prayers.
Nickname wrote:
Thsnks for pointing this out.
I can’t remember which post it was, but on the blog Because It Matters by Danni Moss, there is a post where she cited sources that I can’t remember (and as I’m using my phone, am not going to look up), but this stat hads stuck with me and I feel it is a vital piece of information in how we see and handle victims and perpetrators: only 12 1/2% of sexual abusers were themselves sexually abused. Think about all the admonitions about ‘hurting people hurt people’, blah, blah, blah. Then consider that 87 1/2% of those sexually abused never abuse anyone themselves and to suggest the abusers should be given a break because they were abused is a slap in the face of every victim who didn’t become an abuser.
Dis wrote:
Yes. Completely true.
Dis wrote:
I’ve seen it happen. Crying, sobbing, sincere Remorse switched on and off like a light switch. So sorry, so remorseful, so repentant — Mom turns her back and CLICK! Off — gloat gloat gloat. Mom turns back and CLICK! On — tears, remorse, so truly sorry for what he did…. CLICK! On, CLICK! Off, CLICK! On, CLICK! Off…
“Go ahead and tell on me. Nobody will EVER believe you. Because I’m the Sweet Little Angel and you’re the Crazy Kid.”
Something my counsellor once said to me, and which is worth repeating to all dissociatives (like myself):
“The pain is real. it came from somewhere. You might not remember all the details. You may never remember all the details. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Little children don’t sit down in a corner and invent ways to ruin their lives. It happened and it’s real.”
And another gem from the same source, when I asked her whether I could blame my mother for her part in my abuse when I have reason to believe she was probably abused herself:
“She was abused. She chose to become an abuser. You were abused. You chose not to become an abuser. That choice is the moral difference”
She also told me that in her experience as a professional dealing with abuse victims, people who had been abused made either the very best or the very worst parents — depending largely on whether or not they were honest, at least with themselves, about the pain in their lives. Those who won’t admit that they hurt tend to “take it out” on others. Those who know how much they hurt usually choose to do anything to prevent their own children carrying that sort of pain.
Forbes magazine article on the disturbing link between psychopaths and leadership:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/victorlipman/2013/04/25/the-disturbing-link-between-psychopathy-and-leadership/
Fascinating list of traits of psychopathic people. Anything sound familiar here?
Facet 1: Interpersonal
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Facet 2: Affective
Lack of remorse or guilt
Emotionally shallow
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
See the rest here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy
Janey wrote:
I really appreciate you saying this @Dis. This was my experience and I don’t use the label sociopath lightly. They are extremely good at what they do.
@ Janey: Just like the Don Draper character on “Mad Men” (which I had to quit watching; the evil was/is so blatant, and ill-treatment of women is very much a part of it).
Taken directly from SGM official statement
“Our careful review of the allegations to date has not produced any evidence of any cover-up or conspiracy. If we discover otherwise, our Board will immediately report it to the authorities and see that it is prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Without minimizing the serious nature of these allegations nor the grievous harm individuals may have experienced, we understand that it is possible for people to be wrongly accused. We thank God for the judicial system where these allegations can be brought, a defense made, and a verdict rendered through a fair and just process.”
/ It is sickening to me that this is what SGM puts out as their official statement. Nowhere do they say anything about these poor children who have clearly been harmed, or how they are praying for these victims, or how sickened they are if these types of things occurred in any SGM churches. Instead SGM simply runs the children over in an effort to circle the wagons.
This is not reflective of the God that we serve or of his heart for the little ones.
May The Lord bring healing and comfort to these survivors, and may he have mercy and show true grace to these men who have become blind to their sin./
I know I shouldn’t doubt the motives of the TGC folks, but it’s hard for me not to think of Wilsons tweets as “damage control” rather than genuine “conscience pricking.”
I imagine some of these Calvinista folks will get wind of the detailed allegations and begin to calculate, “Alright . . . so if we *are* wrong . . . what will this mean that we have defended CJ and SGM . . .”
It’s like a game of chicken – the alleged victims have made their move and are standing strong. What will the Calvinistas do next? I expect a lot more damage control in the days to come.
Lynne T wrote:
Beautiful and insightful comment. This meant a lot to me. Thank you for sharing, Lynne!
Megan wrote:
I think it is important to qualify this statement–if you don’t, then SGM and its supporters will. When prompted and suggested in the right (wrong) way, children can and have made up allegations of this nature, as was seen in the satanic abuse hysteria phenomenon of the 80s/90s. But I think it is important to note that the situation here is rather different, since there has been (as far as I know or have heard) no such interrogation or involvement of such parties. Without that suggestive component, false accusations do seem to be very, very rare (though precise percentages vary from study to study).
Beyond all that, I have the feeling that the inclusion of the names of other witnesses present is a good indication that the allegations are true–and if not, then it should be found out awfully quickly.
Mr.H wrote:
This will be fascinating to watch. And you can be sure that we will be ‘watching’. It’s what we do best. 😉
20-35% of male sexual perpetrators and 2% of female sexual perpetrators were abused as children.
From: “Cycle of child sexual abuse: links bet being a victim and becoming a perpetrator” (study combined with studies review) http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/179/6/482.full
@ Patrice:
Sorry, I got that wrong. Of the women who had been sexually abused in childhood, 2% became perpetrators. The percentage for males is accurate.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Excellent point.
Off topic (not really)
I didn’t find this tweet by Seminary president Al Mohler the least bit funny.
https://mobile.twitter.com/albertmohler/status/334770030552174593
The more these guys express themselves the more childish they appear. What terrific role models for future pastors. 🙁
Patrice wrote:
I knew that was what you meant, but I’m glad you clarified…
@ Deb:
Yah, I may be slow but I get there in the end. 🙂
numo wrote:
So true. We tolerate these charming brutal sociopaths in business, and if we see the church as a human-driven business, we ignore the danger signs in pastors. God’s Spirit is able to grow the church without the help of a power hungry self-aggrandizing pastor.
I still cannot get over this video by C. J. Mahaney on his humility. I was ready to vomit by the 3rd minute. Neither man has any idea what humility is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er6FQHZsf-o
Can you imagine the victims of child abuse who try to get justice from these kind of people? They just get stomped on. My heart goes out to the sexual abuse victims.
Janey,
MacDonald has since disassociated from The Gospel Coalition. That video is an HUGE embarrassment!
Deb wrote:
Their hearts are cold and calloused. And that is the best thing that social media has shown us: More of who they really are. How fake and self serving. The lines are being drawn and as more people wake up and I predict there will be lots of young guys looking for followers who are modeling their favorite guru. Only to find Mohler used them.
Just the very basics of integrity and character would demonstrate that Mohler has shame and remorse for his part in promoting and helping to try and exonerate Mahaney at the expense of insulting bloggers, etc. He does not even have that.
The irony is that there are non believers who get this. Non believers who have more concern and compassion for molested children than these over paid, celebrity seeking perfumed kings who are spiritually empty suits. Gnostic doctrine over people.
They cannot exist without people’s money and allegiance, though.
Daisy wrote:
Ever heard of the song “Kinko the Clown” by Ogden Edsel? Very Sick & Twisted novelty song about a pedo clown who worked kid parties, sung from the POV of the kids he groomed. Used to hear it on Dr Demento. Like a lot of Dr D’s playlists, it’s on YouTube on a title search, but THE SONG IS ONE LONG TRIGGER FOR ANYONE WHO’S BEEN SEXUALLY ABUSED. TRIGGER WARNING! TRIGGER WARNING! TRIGGER WARNING!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
P.S. And highly appropriate as a theme song to this “Oops the Clown.” I suggest it be played as background music in any coverage of this guy. Or YouTube linked from any internet coverage as a commentary.
P.P.S. “Oops”? Only “Oops” in this clown is He Got Caught.
Anon 1 wrote:
“Doctrine over People.”
In Marxspeak, “Purity of Ideology”. (Ask any survivor of GULAG or the Killing Fields of Cambodia about Purity of Ideology.)
Dee and Deb, I am in full agreement with you on this one. I do not for one minute believe the victims here are unstable people experiencing sour grapes over "strong leadership". That seems to be what what SGM leaders and others would have us believe. I found from my own experiences, which were nothing of the magnitude of what these folks have gone through, just how cold and calloused church leadership can be when they are drunk with their own perceived authority and godliness. Sadly, there are many who are still under their spell. Hopefully when all is said and done justice will have its day.
I just sent an email with the story attached to the entertainment company that works with Mr. Hoffman aka Oops the Clown.
As a children’s entertainer myself, I would hate to think I rub elbows with this monster.
I hope he and the others that preyed upon these children are brought to justice. HORRIBLE!!!
Why am I commenting on the Mother’s Day thread rather than this one?
Easy.
As has been said before.
There are no words.
Oh wait. I thought of a few. Not for the situation but for those exposing it.
Thanks to the lawyers and the (alleged, but I totally believe them) victims for rising up and standing strong against this evil that is coiled around the insides of SGM. Thanks for going in and being the hands and feet of Jesus and turning over the tables of the money changers and confronting those in charge, those who should have been looking after the sheep rather than their pocket books. Thanks for revealing that those in charge had turned God’s house into a den of thieves, liars, and pedophiles. Good job.
And good job to the blogs who keep bringing this up and who refuse to let wolves run over innocent sheep and dragging God’s name in their filth.
@ Deb:
So big of Mohler and the commenters to be in a “Twit” over how a book comes wrapped. It doesn’t take much to send them into a middle school mindset. And Turk just dressed down Driscoll. All the more proof that all is well for those in the “right” theology club.
Deb wrote:
Deb — That is good news. I’m amazed that Gospel Coalition keeps this stuff up. It shows how out of touch they are. To have disconnected from reality this much is dangerous and it gives me no hope that they will actually say anything about the lawsuit. The humility video is impossible to parody — Poe’s Law comes into effect. It’s impossible to parody anything this extreme.
@ Deb:
Deb-
First time posting- sorry if this is confusing but I found it interesting.
I clicked on the al mohler twitter link and then went down a short bunny trail on twitter. I found a comment by a Paul Dohse that was interesting. I am not too savvy at twitter but here is the link – I think. It refers to a comment made by Mohler referring to the Obama admin. Paul comments” but what about the CJ Mahaney controversy? @SBTS @PastorSJCamp @albertmohler Really? What about the CJ Mahaney controversies?!!. Don’t know Paul but thought the comment was good.
I’m pretty sure CLC has been supporting the Griney family financially since Griney stopped working at the school. As far as anyone knows, he hasn’t worked since and it’s impossible to survive on just a cls teacher’s salary (his wife still works there).
Welcome, Soarin’ on!
What does Jesus say about those who hurt children?
What does Jesus say about that church that has right doctrine but no love?
These men are evil. They are wolves in Sherpa clothing. I think their system of shepherding creates these problems and predators realize they have easy access to the little ones. Evil, evil, evil.
@ Garland:
This case is actually very different.
The plaintiffs are all adults coming forward. There are no children to interview — only adults. There are adults who might have been/were “further” tramatized because of the way they were treated when they were children and tried to speak out about the abuse. Likewise, there were adult women and men in this “family of churches”‘ who were abused when they tried to speak out about the way their husbands and/or pastors treated them.
@ Mara:
I agree, Mara. Those are good words.
@ Deb: Which “MacDonald” has dissociated himself from the GC?
Deb wrote:
Did you notice the “big name” Mohler butt-kissers that responded in similar vein? Turk, Phillips and Challies. What a pitiful lot.
A. Steele wrote:
Did you attach a YouTube link to “Kinko the Clown” by Ogden Edsel?
@ Patricia Hanlon: James MacDonald – Harvest Bible Chapel, near Chicago
http://jamesmacdonald.com/blog/why-i-resigned-from-the-gospel-coalition/
Elephant Room 2 appears to have been the straw that broke the camel's back (or was it an elephant?)
From the SGM Survivors website:
About Faces
May 16th, 2013 at 10:40 am
@#207. I have verified independently that it is, and we have removed him from our site and are no longer promoting him to our clients.
I am horrified by the allegations, and I have to protect my business, and the clients who book with me, and have done so. But I am also disturbed by the fact that he has been found guilty without a trial, and, not having been charged, will never be able to clear his name in any way.
Soarin'
Thanks for sharing that. Good for Paul Doshe! Dee and I are familiar with him.
Welcome to TWW!
To our readers
We have restored the sef descriptor of Oops the Clown to the post. We were convinced that this was the truth and that is why we orginally printed it.
TW wrote:
Those guys don't have enough to do if they have time to Tweet about such nonsense. I wonder how that kind of internet chatter helps carry the gospel to the nations…
Great to hear from you! I trust you are doing well. 🙂
Bill O’Neil, co-counsel for the plaintiffs, will be on the Janet Mefferd radio program today at 4:15 pm. He will be talking about the Second Amended Lawsuit.
http://janetmefferd.com/showsummary.aspx?show=5/16/2013
He doesn’t really explain why he left, does he? @ Deb:
@ Marge Sweigart:
Thanks for letting us know. I listened to the first interview O'Neil did with Mefferd. I'm so grateful she is staying on top of this!
I will do my best to tune in today! 😉
Patricia Hanlon wrote:
Yep, MacDonald was pretty vague. As I recall, T.D. Jakes was a BIG factor.
@ Soarin’:
Yea, I briefly peeked in on this conversation. Jared Wilson did a post about John Piper/Driscoll http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/
He’s basically saying don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater with those guys. He put out a teaser in his title and these celebrity leaders are calling him on it.
Here is some more interesting tweeting: https://twitter.com/PastorSJCamp/status/335043765964267521
Apparently Steve Camp likes CJ. I think I”m going back to bed now. Wake me up when it’s all over.
I lurk at times but have not posted, find the whole thing disturbing though as an understatement. But following this thread and the twitter links.
I get now why the gospel coalition is not having an outcry. Or at least an excuse they are falling back on.
The Catholic church wouldn’t be seen as Christian. Penn State isn’t a church. Hence the outcry against them. but this…this is a local church issue amongst Christians, aka not to be touched.
Might be wrong, just a theory.
@ Deb:
You can listen to it later if you can’t catch it live.
@ Bridget:
They make me ill, with all of their talk about how women shouldn’t tempt men with how they dress, do you know how many passion inflaming images they have just caused in the minds of all of their male twitter followers? Obviously they themselves are quite familiar with inside pages of plastic/paper wrapped media. If I was one of their wives reading those tweets I’d be refusing ‘service’ until he made a public and personal apology. I would be so embarrassed being one of their wives or children.
@ Marge Sweigart:
I will probably be linking to it in a post for the benefit of our readers.
Macdonald’s Harvest Bible Chapel organization looks much like SGM. There are websites with info regarding huge debts. A church in NC voted to join Harvest, and immediately lost all voting rights. Many from the original church have left.
My apologies if this is off topic, but I’m trying to get to the bottom of the mystery that is the Gospel Coalition. I contacted an Anglican priest who is on the Council, because he heads a church that is one of the largest in my denomination. Since our denom. does have women priests (though people fall on both sides of the women’s ordination debate), I told him I was concerned about what his membership in GC might mean. He said there was much more of a range in the GC on these issues than I might suppose. When I asked him who, among the Council members, was more moderate in their views about women in church leadership that Piper, Mahaney, Mohler, et.al., he would not answer, but said i had to “take his word for it.” So my question for TWW: are there any churches represented in GC which allow women elders and pastors? My sense is that it is pretty much a boys’ club.
Again, apologies if this is off topic.
Nickname wrote:
Yep. And if memory serves me correctly, the pastor at that church is a Master’s Seminary grad.
I so much appreciate the stance of not just Deb and Dee but of most of the those commenting here. It’s just overwhelming how often people don’t believe the abused. When I once shared with an ex that my older sister was physically and psychologically abusive toward me and my other siblings when we were kids, the ex later referred to it as my sister “teasing” me. I can’t tell you how patronized and dehumanized a person feels when a painful experience is shared and then totally discounted.
Reading this blog is also a REALLY important reminder about protecting the children in my own life, and for that I’m grateful (thank you). It’s terribly disheartening knowing that abusers are almost always trusted friends or family members. After a child (not his) was abused by a leading member at his church, my brother-in-law said, “I’m never letting anyone babysit my children except a sexually satisfied, married woman.” I feel that sentiment!
@ Patricia Hanlon:
You might want to start with this blog post and video:
Why is The Gospel Coalition Complementarian?
LailaO,
Thanks so much for your edifying comment!
@ Deb: Great, thanks!
@ numo:
I don’t know. I think the Draper character has a lot of inner pain. (His real name is not Don Draper, that is an identity he took on from a dead military friend.)
He’s afraid of people know the real him, they won’t like him, so he puts on the persona of slick ad man. He thinks people like the image he projects, not the real him, and he rarely lets anyone know the real him.
Also, Draper’s character grew up in a house of prostitution, so in childhood, he developed some wrong ideas about sex and women. I’ve seen episodes where he tries to do the right thing.
Draper told Joan not to sleep with the Jaguar guy all for gaining the Jaguar account. He does have some kind of empathy and kindness, but it’s buried deep inside. I actually feel rather sorry for the character.
I think his co worker Pete is a better example of a watered down psychopath. Pete is truly selfish – usually, at least when it comes to women.
I had to work for a woman boss one time who had issues.
I don’t know if she could be classified by a doctor as psychopath, but she was rather cruel to people, but had the gall to act offended that nobody liked her at work. If you treat people cruelly, don’t sit there and act mystified that you can’t make friends or get respect.
I would rather work for Don Draper than ‘Woman Boss X’ from that job. At least you could tell off Draper if he gets out of bounds, like his co worker Peggy did on the last episode.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
No, I’ve not heard the Kinko the Clown song. When I hear Kinko, I think of the photocopying center business. Though I suppose Kinko is short for “kinky”
HoppyTheToad wrote:
I’m not a parent, but I had one parent who did little parenting and left the lion’s share of parenting up to the other (my mother).
My mother came from an abused background. She did not abuse my siblings or me, but she went the opposite route: she was a helicopter parent, too over-protective, which had negative repercussions on me and actually made me more vulnerable to being targeted by abusive people, as a kid, teen, and later as an adult.
If you’re trying to teach your kids how to spot or stay away from abusers, I think teaching them and role modeling boundaries for them can be very handy and is a life necessity, even when having to deal with garden variety jerks.
Decent to very good books on these topics by Christian authors are:
–Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend
–No More Christian Nice Guy by Paul Coughlin
–No More Christian Nice Girl by Paul Coughlin and Jennifer D. Degler
Although I got more help from NonChristian books on the topic, such as-
The Disease to Please by Harriet B Braiker
Basically, any books that talk about codependency and boundaries will be helpful.
There are also books about predators sold online, discussing how predators operate, how they choose victims.
I read excerpts from one (“Predators: Pedophiles, Rapists, And Other Sex Offenders” by Anna Salter), and it was hair raising stuff.
As the author explains, predators come in all shapes, sizes, married, single – they don’t always look like monsters or guys in ratty trench coats. Most maintain a clean-cut, nice guy appearance and demeanor precisely so you will not suspect them.
Ironically, parents (like my mom) who try to protect their kids from any and every evil, who teach them that having boundaries is wrong or selfish, actually predispose their kids to being prime targets for pedos and other abusers, either as children or as adults.
I was taught it was wrong, unChristian or selfish for me to have boundaries, to say ‘no’ to people, to stand up for myself, and so forth.
In the last few years, I’ve read several books about this situation, and the therapists (both Christian and Non Christian) say this is very damaging, one reason being that an overly passive person who has no boundaries is very attractive to abusers, narcissists, and con artists.
Most abusers will not mess with someone who puts up resistance, someone who pushes back.
I think you do want your children to know there are evil people out there who will prey on them, but, you don’t want to scare them to the point they learn mal-adatpive coping skills, which is how my Mom approached it and made me even more vulnerable to being chosen by abusers.
You want your kids to know there are people who prey on children, but also that it’s okay to stand up to any one, adults or kids, who try to touch them inappropriately, who are rude to them. Kids need to know it is okay physically fight back (if it comes to that), to raise a fuss, run away, yell at a jerk or abuser.
Unfortunately, a lot of Christians misconstrue the Bible’s teachings about “turning the cheek” and “returning good for evil,” etc, to mean you have to go through life being a very passive doormat, to let others use and abuse you, and that is not what the Bible is saying at all.
(Christians like to overlook the passages where Jesus yelled at people, stood up to them, as did Apostle Paul.)
One reason I am alarmed by gender complementarian teachings in many churches and these Neo Reformed groups is that the teachings and views about gender actually foster the very behavior in females that make them susceptible to being abused by people especially abusive men, pedos, etc., or that make them so attractive to men looking for a woman (or young person) to abuse and control.
Gender complementarianism is nothing but codependency under another name, being taught as virtuous and biblical to females of all ages, and it puts girls and women in danger.
(I just did a post for HoppyTheToad right above this one but it’s in moderation.)
Someone up thread linked to:
“Why Is TGC Complementarian?”
On that page, one quote:
And gender complementarian teaching has not made women any safer from domestic abuse or from being violated in childhood.
Aren’t this SGM churches supportive of gender complementarian teachings?
If so, it didn’t do any good protecting little girls from being violated by their church members. Some of the male abusers showed great hostility towards females of all ages.
Before CBMW push for gender complementarianism (around the 1980s or 90s), before secular feminism went radical around the 1960s/70s, when men still held more power, women were being abused by men in marriage or in childhood by male abusers.
These guys keep blaming feminism for all sorts of societal ills, but there were problems in society before feminism.
Not that I totally agree with all of feminism, but feminism was meant to address some of the violence and discrimination against women in society.
Today at 4:18 pm ET, Janet Mefferd, nationally syndicated Christian radio host called the Sovereign Grace Ministries lawsuit “The Biggest Evangelical Sex Scandal to Date.” She interviewed Bill O’Neil, one of the attorneys representing the plaintiffs. The stories he told on-air were shocking. Allegedly, a defendant who had no children of his own had children’s sleepovers at his home, and parents who went to church leaders were told to “stop gossiping.”
We are so sorry if anyone thought we cared. Our main concern has always been our own happiness. The church was a happy place as long as it supplied our needs. We left for Kentucky because the grass was blue-greener and what we left behind had no impact on us whatsoever. If others didn’t end up liking the way we did business, even though many of them profited like Joshua Harris, they are simply full of pride. But that is what this was, people. A business. If you believe it was anything else, that is your problem. But, we’re still going to defend ourselves on the basis of having been a ministry because pretending to be a ministry is what always benefitted us, because no matter what we did, people kept giving us money. And honestly, what better way is there to run a business than to fool people into thinking your product is the real deal when it’s nothing but a cheap imitation. That’s the way to make cash hand over fist!
But we’re doing fine. We don’t pay attention to you. What matters is that people believe us and follow our instructions. Stay tuned to the girlietalk blog soon as we will be starting a new series telling everyone else what they should and shouldn’t do. And we’re still shopping and as materialistic as ever! Like I always tell my kids and grandkids, “Buyer beware!”
@ Patricia Hanlon:
You might also want to read #3 (entirely) of TGC’s confessional statement.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/about/foundation-documents/confessional/
Carolyn, I drove by your listed “headquarters” on Fandango court the other day taking my daughter to a friends house. It is a large house! Someone told me it is actually the Kauflin’s home. We made sure to point our friends to the article in the Courier Journal about the 2nd amended lawsuit so they will know more about their neighbors church in case they are invited. :o)
WJLA did an excellent job covering the story. I’m assuming it’ll be available on demand later.
@ Marge Sweigart: Glad to hear it! Will check their site later…
WJLA has a text story up already:
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/05/sovereign-grace-ministries-class-action-civil-lawsuit-involving-child-sex-abuse-88894.html
Re the Mohler tweet… Does Frank Turk’s picture make anyone else… well, irritated?
Sorry! Should’ve replied up farther.
numo wrote:
Thanks numb. It looks like they delay the video feed about 1 1/2 hours but I may be wrong.
Janey
We will be linking to it in today’s post.
Daisy wrote:
It’s out of moderation.
Pedophilia plus Vore (cannibalism fetish) — Pedo-Vore?
With overtones of an escalating fetish a la serial killers.
We have now officially exhausted all possible combinations of sexual paraphilia.
The video is available.
Daisy wrote:
Gender Complementarian Teachings = Male Supremacist Ideology.
Call them what they are: MALE SUPREMACISTS. Like the Taliban.
Daisy wrote:
THAT sort of thing — the wide-eyed innocence of the poor poor persecuted sociopath taking a prepared plausibly-deniable, blame-shifting fallback position and gaslighting their victim — is MY trigger incident. Guaranteed rage trigger. Punch the button and watch the monkey dance — Dance, Monkey, Dance!
Do an internet search for Sovereign Grace Ministries lawsuit for the past 24 hours.
The story is starting to get some secular attention.
But what’s with the Christian Post? Did they just redate their old March 12, 2013 story?
@ Daisy: I am old enough to remember the era when sexual harassment of women in the workplace was the norm.
This show more or less (imo, at least) glorifies many of the worst aspects of the era, and I do think Draper’s character comes off as NYC’s Best Dressed Sociopath of 1960.
I had to stop watching early in season 2, because of what he did to a woman in the episode about the Utz potato chips commercial. How or why that incident got past censorship, I don’t know, but it was repulsive. (I think they were able to evade problems by extremely careful video editing, but … why would Jon Hamm even want to play that scene??!!)
@ Jam:
Yes, the video is now included in the text link that Numo posted above.
annie wrote:
Me!
@ annie:
It’s creepy looking to me. But I’ve been under the impression that HE likes it that way. He could change it whenever he wants.
You can listen to the broadcast on her site (not live, it’s recorded/ archived):
Hour 3- Janet talks about the Sovereign Grace Ministries lawsuit with attorney Bill O’Neil.
.
@ numo:
I didn’t start watching the show (Mad Men) until about a year ago, when AMC ran repeats of it. I started watching around season 4 or 5, so I’m not familiar with seasons 1 – 3.
What they’re doing now is showing how Draper (and his fellow sexist, greedy co workers) are falling apart due to their sexism, greed, drinking.
They’re showing Draper’s womanizing, alcoholism, and inattention to his children as being bad things (not sexy or to be admired). He is starting to suffer repercussions from the boozing, napping on the job, sleeping around, etc.
The women are now making strides on the job. Joan is now a partner in the ad agency. Peggy has been promoted and speaks back to Don quite freely (she’s not afraid of him).
The show is really getting into how he’s unhappy, hollow, and searching for meaning in power, marriage, sex, money, but he’s still depressed. His mistress just dumped him, and he took it hard.
He’s a miserable guy. I don’t know about seasons 1 – 3, but for the last season or two, he is one very depressed, unfulfilled guy.
Some are speculating that the show creator is trying to (in part) chronicle how the “old boys” network and sexism in the work place is changing now that they are getting closer the 1970s. (The show is currently set in mid 1968).
They’re also showing that Don, now early 40s, may be out of tune with the times, compared to his younger co-workers. He remains stuck in the late ’50s/ early 60s, which may be holding him back creatively a bit (it’s hinted at).
They’ve also briefly touched on how racism is starting to erode (there was an episode about MLK’s assassination and how Dawn, a black secretary, is doing around the office).
@ annie:
Frank Turk makes me irritated.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yes, my boss would harass every one, but me above every one else, which I dealt with by limiting my contact with her, and it bothered her.
She picked up that I didn’t like her (I didn’t try to be obvious about it, but she picked it up), and she would confront me in private when nobody was around to scream at me. It seemed to hurt/anger her that I couldn’t stand her and didn’t want to be around her.
She harassed me and intentionally created a hostile work environment but had the nerve to act wounded/offended I didn’t want to be her buddy or engage in polite chit chat.
When a teen working at a minimum wage job, had something similar happen. I was about 18 years old, and the new co worker was about 16. She was verbally abusive/ catty to me for months.
One day I told her politely her behavior was offensive, to stop it. She continued to verbally abuse me for months after.
Until one day I got her alone in the employee lounge (I said, “Can I speak to you alone please”) and screamed at her – complete with spittle flying from my mouth -that I had had it with her rudeness and wouldn’t tolerate it anymore. She began crying. That made me more angry. I told her, “I’m the victim here, not you, stop your crying.”
It’s amazing how people who are regularly cruel, abusive, or mean can act all offended or hurt when you finally stand up to them, as though they are the victim.
UPI coverage:
Lawsuit alleges sexual misconduct in Evangelical church [Sovereign Grace Ministries]
I had any graphic design talent, I could have a field day with the image at the top of this site:
T4G.org
@ Daisy: In the 1st 3 seasons, Draper is glamorized.
There were a couple of times that he seemed to start feeling remorse re. his cheating on Betty (etc. etc. etc.) at the end of season 1, but season 2 – same old same old, only worse.
Season 1 has flashbacks to how he stole his identity. It also shows how he treated his (now late) half-brother, which is horrific.
@ numo:
Oh. In the last couple of seasons, he seems really pathetic. His drinking and womanizing is getting him into trouble now.
I just watched the video. I am sickened. I have no words.
Daisy wrote:
Kind of like our recent visitor, Wayne Barbour.
@ Janey:
I notice on the home page is a video of Piper with the text:
“Complementarianism: Essential or Expendable?”
The guys in that group are clearly trying to elevate their views of gender roles to being central to the Christian faith.
Robin wrote:
Perverts tend to congregate together to facilitate their crimes.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2087711,00.html
@ Daisy:I’m not sure if I could stand to watch 6 seasons of his increasing deterioration – the 1st season was hard enough to get through.
I *do* like the acting, cast, production values, etc. but really… it’s hard to actually *like* anyone on the show (at the beginning) and I wonder if that ever changes.
I think it could have been a far better and more interesting show if there had been some differences – a moral center 9even if it shifts), characters with some human decency, etc.
The misogyny, racism, anti_Semitism and general hatred (out in the ‘burbs) for single moms, divorced women, etc. is really, really hard to get through. On one hand, they can say “This is what it was like,” which is true – but to see it over and over again, with no counterpoint, is numbing and painful.
In some ways, I feel like there’s a baited hook in each episode that keeps the viewer on the line – much like the advertising world that the show supposedly criticizes. (but, I think, doesn’t really, at least not early on.)
The way Peggy is treated in the early seasons is pretty tough to take. “Condescension” doesn’t even begin to cover it!
@ numo:
You’d like Peggy now. She speaks up and even tells Don off. She quit working for Don to work for some other ad guy, but now the two agencies are merged, but she is still in a high position.
If you are wanting a counterpoint to the smarminess that is Don and Pete- the new ad guy, Ted Chaough, shows up to work on time, isn’t a drinker, chews Don out for leaving for 40 minutes of a work day to attend to personal business, gives up his chair for a woman at a crowded staff meeting.
Ted is (so far) the “Anti-Don.” 🙂
The other new character, Bob Benson, helped Joan out. Of course she is suspicious and wonders if he’s genuine with his niceness, or just kissing up to her to keep his job, but so far he has been portrayed as an honest do-gooder.
These new guys are interesting counterpoints to the regular male cast. They appear to respect women and aren’t boozers who goof off all day on the job.
I like watching the show in part for the fashions, hair styles, set design, and stuff like that.
Daisy wrote:
Daisy — Yes, in fact, I think they want 100 things to be essential and central, so that they can declare themselves the only true Christians. (Won’t they be surprised?)
I’m glad that Rachel Held Evans is holding John Piper’s feet to the fire on her blog. Have you seen this post?
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/legalism-gender-roles-exhibit-c-piper-commentary
And Dee and Deb have already taken on these T4G pastors here:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/04/12/together-for-the-gospel-%E2%80%93-really/
From Phoenix Preacher’s blog about SGM:
“The pattern is familiar.
The institution (and it’s leadership) are valued more than any victim, no matter how horrific the offense.
Offenses are covered in secrecy and shame…even after they have been exposed.
Rather than submit to an open and honest investigation, the courts and online media have to carry the hopes for truth and justice.
As a result, the name of Christ is disgraced and the people of God are crushed.
Jesus wept…but He keeps good records too.
”
http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=2315
@ Daisy: On the pilot, Don tells a woman client (co-owner of a good Manhattan department store) that he “will not be spoken to like that by a woman.”
In fact, he shouts it at her during a boardroom meeting.
He is also super-overprotective of Betty, in a way that says “I own you,” not “I love and care about you.” (Throughout the show, not just during the pilot.)
It is really hard to take, combined with the men treating the female staff like they’re all potential prey.
@ Daisy: Joan is consistently cruel during the early seasons. She is one of Roger’s mistresses (fwiw).
From what I’ve read, she remains ruthless throughout later seasons.
It would be nice if there had been even one or two truly likable characters early on… working for Stirling Cooper, that is. I can think of a few who are only featured in a couple of episodes, and frankly, I’d rather they had principal parts and/or that someone had done a spinoff show centering on one or another of them/
This show frustrates me, because it could be terrific in every respect… but isn’t. : (
Anon 1 wrote:
Anon 1 — I saw that line too. So very good.
@ Janey:
That was a good blog page by RHE about Piper. He has some very odd and absurd views about women.
@ numo:
All of this is kind of strange to read about, because since I’ve been watching, things are rather different.
Joan seems pretty nice most of the time, was recently victimized (sort of forced to sleep with some guy to win his account), and women are standing up to Don.
Peggy just chewed Don out last episode, then walked out of his office. He sat there looking defeated by it, very hang dog.
Don’s mistress broke up with him, and he looked so beaten down and he begged her, “please?” (as in please stay, don’t break up).
The guy may have walked all over women in previous seasons, but he’s on the receiving end of it now, and from the ladies… and he doesn’t yell back, he just sits there and takes it.
@ Janey:
Post Script.
There are one or two other ladies who post to RHE;s blog as “daisy” or “Daisy.”
I posted there a time or two as “Daisy,” then as “DaisyFlower.”
So not all posts by people named “daisy” there are the same person as me.
I too, want to thank you, Lynne, for posting this. It really resonated with me.Mr.H wrote:
I just tweeted your category “Sovereign Grace Ministries” and noticed this post was not included in the label. Could you label it please so it’s included in case someone clicks on the link? It’s just one more important piece of the puzzle. Thank you!
Anon 1 wrote:
Hello Anon 1,
Thank you for serving your daughter by driving her to a friend’s house. Generally speaking, my daughters spent time at the homes of close relatives because they were too good to associate with the regular childen of church members, and knowing about so many stories of sexual abuse we made sure we protected our girls, so I suggest you do the same! If other church members didn’t protect their children the way we did, knowing what we did, that is their problem!
We are so grateful to the Kauflin’s for their willingness to stand with us and shield us from all the persecution we have been enduring. They continue to serve us and our new ministry by their willingness to make their home address the address of our new headquarters, while BJ and I keep our home address private. That was one of the deal’s we struck with them which encouraged them to move with us to Louisville. Bob and Julie need a lot of money and are used to providing their large family with room to spare. And they’ve needed a lot of spare rooms to house their grown kids and grandkids, some of whom aren’t able to be employed by church like all our kids are. Which was the deal we made with our kids: that if they moved with us, we would provide them all with houses and jobs. And I’m so glad all my children (Chad will be finishing college and moving here soon enough) are living within close proximity to us because I would have no life without them. Imagine spending all my time at home packing CJ’s lunches and washing his clothes! No, I need my daughters close by for the narcissistic supply they offer me. I don’t know what I would do without them since I don’t have a real job! And now our retirement plan (which was similiar to our good friend John Piper and his wife Noel’s), which was to travel the world speaking at comfortable Christian conferences where we’d be treated like celebrities, is pretty much shot because of all these liars that have come forward in an attempt to ruin our lives. The stress is causing me to shop more than ever, and those people want to take my money away from me! It’s just so awful, since I’m such a good person with a good name that should never be associated with this scandal in any way, even though I knew about everything that was happening and did nothing.
I have to say this…First a disclaimer, I am not violent, aggressive, resentful or a trouble maker. Never really been involved in any physical alterations in my life. However, if my now 26 year old daughter came to me and disclosed to me that when she was a toddler, someone who she could name in the church (or anywhere as far as that goes) touched her, molested her, or worse, raped her. If that person was still alive and breathing, there would be nowhere he could hide, not to face a confrontation with me. That person probably would be involved in multiple lawsuits, one he may have filed himself, for being beat to within an inch of his life. And for those that might want to comment about my violent response to such a matter…save it. When it comes to my kids, there is no statue of limitation.