9 Marks: A Curse on Usurping Women?

The perfect church service,would be one we were almost unaware of. Our attention would have been on God. -C.S. Lewis 

Day_Six
Day Six by Dan Groover
 

This post is not one in which I have answers, merely questions. In fact, that is how I feel about a lot of our posts. The other night, my husband and I watched the movie called Windtalkers. When I worked on the Navajo reservation, I was honored to care for a couple of men who  had been Code Talkers during WW2. Their language was obscure and the Japanese found it difficult to translate and understand. They were instrumental in the outcome of the war. 

A few days ago, I read Preaching to Women Who Work in the Home by Bari Nichols at the 9 Marks blog here. I found her language somewhat confusing. I felt like I was trying to break some sort of code as I sought to understand her message. I became further concerned when I saw the Mahaney women pushing this post at Girl Talk here. Unfortunately, they added another full layer of code talk. All of them appear to assume that we readers know eaxctly what they mean when the discuss words like "leadership," "domineering," and "gospel." 

Nichols appears to be exhorting (are women allowed to exhort?)  pastors to address the curse on women, the problem of usurping women and appropriate roles for women, during their preaching. Her appeal is based on the following Scripture.

First, remember your sisters’ curse. In the garden, God placed a curse on Eve’s calling: “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you” (Gen. 3:16).

Pain in childbirth

In the article, the author repeats that women: "still suffer pain and trouble in childbearing." So, Dee commenced to chew on this. Is this talking about the actual birth process? If so, epidurals are making the process a whole lot less painful. My knee surgery was far more difficult and painful than the birth of my three children. Pain during labor, as time goes on, could be eliminated. So, as mankind becomes more sophisticated, does this mean we can overturn the curse of God by mere science? Could there be another interpretation? 

From Christianity Today-AU link

There seems to be a lot of debate about the Hebrew word in question here. So I wouldn’t want to be too dogmatic about this. The word that is often interpreted as pain or sorrow is used 16 times in many versions such as the King James Version of the Bible. It is usually translated to mean ‘labour, toil, work’ except when in relation to childbirth, it is translated to mean ‘pain, sorrow, anguish or pang’. 

This can change one’s understanding of the text. For example, the use of ‘toil’ instead might not insinuate God is making childbirth painful. Maybe bringing children into this life and raising them up will all be difficult compared to what it was like in Eden. It is just another example of all parts of life being harder because of the original sin. 

Outcomes

If we go around telling women that God cursed childbirth with terrible pain, those that believe this message are likely to have more pain in their labours because of the effect of fear. If this is the case, I find it hard to believe God is keen on us preaching childbirth is painful because God cursed it. God wants us to alleviate suffering as we follow in the footsteps of Christ. 

Here are some of my thoughts on this matter. I will be interested in thoughts from our readers.

  • The physical Eve should represent the plight of all women, even women who do not have children, so I do not think that difficult labor is the issue here.
  • I believe that the word "sorrow," which many believe is the correct interpretation of orginal language makes sense more sense than pain. 
  • Sorrow embraces all women (and men for that matter). After  the Fall, we sons and daughters of Eve would not walk again in a perfect, beautiful garden with our God until Jesus comes again. Our children and we would be subject to the curse and would experience hatred, greed, lust, and sickness. It happened rather quickly with Cain and Abel and continues to Newtown and beyond.
  • Things do change with Christ's death and resurrection. We are called to serve our brothers and sisters. In Him we strive to alleviate pain and suffering in the world. We fight against injustice and cruelty. We offer hope in the God who loves us all. Christ has given us the gift of the Holy Spirit to minister to the suffering. We are given the gift of science to address illness. We are given technology to build wells and  to increase the output of crops. The curse remains but we can make a difference. 

Usurping women

The author then switches to the second part of the verse.

 Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you

These relationships are at the heart of the woman’s work in the home. Women today still struggle with the desire to usurp their husband’s leadership.

Consider how Peter takes this curse into account by speaking to women directly about their relationship with their husbands:

I think that she makes an error here. She switches quickly from the "curse" language and appears to imply that the Genesis verse instructs the reader about appropriate gender based roles. She makes a rather sweeping statement about  "usurping women" and does not define her words.  I am left with the impression that today's women, in general, are involved in subversive plot to seize their husband's leadership.

If I had her sitting in from of me, I would ask the following questions.

If I have interpreted her incorrectly, I am sorry. But, if this is what I thought about this post, then I will not be the only one.

  • Define, practically, what constitutes "leadership" in the home? If one cannot adequately define this, how can one assess if there is a war going on? Over the past few years, I have asked this question time and time again and I cannot get anyone from the complementarian camp to explain to me what this means in any practical sense. How do we know that there is a "usurp" going on if we do not know what is being commandeered? 
  • How does one journey from the verse in Genesis to accusations that "women today" are involved in a war in the home? And why is there an assumption, if one believes that there is a war, that it is due to the women in the home and not the men?
  • Why does she believe that the result of Eve's fall is now the pejorative for relationships between men and women? Could it be that the man's "rule" over the wife is not meant to be a good thing but, in fact, a bad thing because of the fall? 
  • Permit me one small rabbit trail. The Old Testament deals a bunch with the rule of the kings, most of whom did "evil in the sight of the Lord." In the last century, we have seen the rule of dictators who do evil things such Hitler and Pol Pot. We believe that the overthrow of dictators and tyrants is justified. So, why does the word "rule" in the Genesis passage get applied to a description of "correct" gender roles?

She does a hop, skip and a jump to visit Paul

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands…your beauty should not come from outward adornment…instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit…this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful…you are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. (1 Pet. 3:1-6)

Here is her solution

Here Peter exhorts women to cultivate a gentle and quiet spirit, not a domineering, manipulative one, as they live under their husband’s leadership. In so doing, women display the gospel.

Oh no, the "gospel" word! Whenever you see someone drag out this word, make sure they are truly describing the gospel as opposed to a "rule."

  • Are men exempt from developing a "gentle" and "quiet" spirit?
  • Better yet, does this mean that men are allowed to be domineering and manipulative?

Once again, the author uses the catch all term "leadership" and does not define what she means by this. I am growing increasingly frustrated by the assumption of some writers that we all know exactly what they mean by this term.

If there is anyone out there in the complementarian camp who could please define exactly what consitutes male only leadership?  So far, it seems to boil down to the guy gets the tie-breaking vote and women cannot be pastors or elders. Mary Kassian and Dorothy Patterson let us know that it has nothing to do with housekeeping, cooking, or even working outside of the home. I assume that they know that such a thing would mean the need for child care as well.  Therefore, it must mean "something else." I also find the latest catchphrase "functional egalitarians" useless. 

The author implores pastors to preach the following from the Old Testament.

  • How were the women good examples (or not) of putting their hope in God as they submitted to their husbands?
  • Did they help their husbands follow God, or did they lead them away from him, like the Canaanite women and Solomon’s wives?
  • Consider pointing out how God is Israel’s helper, and that he has given your women the same role in their husband’s life.
  • ​Encourage them that when they embrace their helper role, they are imaging the church’s relationship to Christ.

I have questions here as well.

  • I have often said that I have never once in my life heard anyone say "Gee, look at Fred and Martha, the "image" the role of the Son to the Father or the church to the Son is now clear." If this is hoped for, I would say it has been an epic fail. Could anyone give me any examples of a couple that lead us to "image" such a thing? Could it be that we don't see it because all us women are too busy "usurping" leadership, whatever that means?
  • I also find it odd that women are also responsible for "leading" their leader husbands away from the faith. Isn't the guy supposed to be the "spiritual" leader?" What's up with this?
  • On the role of "helper," I am terribly confused. I help my husband and he does not help me? Or he helps me a little less so that I am the chief helper and he is in charge? What is the ratio here? I help 80% and he helps 20%?
  • When God was Israel's helper, this example is meant to be for women? But isn't God, as Father, supposed to exhibit the "masculine" feel to the faith. So, when God does something, isn't it a male function? Is she saying that God demonstrates female roles as well? Has John Piper been apprised of this post? There could be trouble.
  • Why does she focus on the Old Testament?

She then closes with this statement to the brothers who preach. (Women do not preach, ever!)

 …remember our curse, our context, and our culture. In so doing, you will bring the gospel to bear on the good work God has given us, for his glory.

So, pastors must remember the "curse" on women and preach to it. The problem is, I still do not know what she is talking about. I want her define her terms and stop using code language. 

Girl Talk: It is all about dad's sermon.

For a moment, I got all excited because the "girls' over at Girl Talk decided to recommend and discuss this post. Surely they will be able to help me understand what I missed. Instead, they have left me more confused than ever. Apparently they believe that this is all about the primacy of the weekly sermon in our Christian walk!

The author of this post is a provoking example for all of us. Her appeal to pastors also forces us to consider how seriously we take the preaching of God’s Word each week. Would we write an appeal like this?

As my dad likes to say to our church on Sunday morning: “The preaching event, being addressed by God through the reading and proclamation of His Word, is the most important event in the life of this church every week.”

So we need to ask ourselves: Is the preaching of God’s Word from our local church pastor the most important event in our lives each week? (Even if we are out with fussy children, do we make it a priority to review the sermon during the week?) The answer will reveal a lot about what we love and what we are living for.

So, the "girls" apparently tell us they believe that the sermon is the most important event in the life of the church each week. Given Mahaney's history, it does not surprise me that a guy who had the hubris to believe that he is an apostle, also appears to have taught his women that he is the most important player in the life of the church.

Deb and I were present for Mahaney's "most important" event of the week a few years ago. His sermon consisted of an interminable( If I wanted sports, I would have stayed home and watched ESPN) recounting of his time at a Duke basketball game.(Hey Deb, did it last about 20 minutes or did it feel like 20 minutes?) He launched into a canned sermon(I think he repeats this one regularly) that contributed precious little for the most important event in my Christian life that week or any other week. Good night!

Where does this leave me? Well, I am still confused. Curses!

Here is a video honoring our Navajo Code Talkers. This is the only time that we should talk in code!

Lydia's Corner: Joshua 24:1-33 Luke 21:1-28 Psalm 89:38-52 Proverbs 13:20-23

Comments

9 Marks: A Curse on Usurping Women? — 300 Comments


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    I agree – very confusing. I commented on the post that a woman telling pastors how to preach to women seems to contradict the 9Marks complementarian teaching. Does anyone else see the disconnect?


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    Marge
    I have to admit, I find most of their reasoning difficult to apprehend.@ Marge Sweigart:


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    In Genesis the curse was directed towards the ground and the serpent. Not Adam and Eve. I guess that is their first HUGE error. One in which they have laid their foundation on.

    They haven’t started out so well.


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    Hannah, Good catch. It was the first glaring error I caught among tons of them. I mean, there is so much to mine here this could be a 1000 comment thread.

    But my favorite is that the author is obviously not taking her own advice! She is giving advice to male pastors? Perhaps her husband stood over her with his “covering” (whatever that is)?


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    There was a time in this country when women were burned at the stake or punished for trying to alleviate labor pains. Some were termed witches by some Puritan leaders for their “potions” to try and alleviate labor pains.


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    In my nearly sixty years on this plant, the vast majority spent married to the same woman, I have NEVER observed a healthy marriage that wasn’t egalitarian.

    Could it be that in some circles “gospel” is code for “approved behavior”? Of course, nothing could be farther from the true meaning of the word.

    The Mahaney sisters highlight what I think is the bane of American evangelical worship services – man centeredness. Of course when it’s cloaked in “gospel humility”, we dare not call it what it is.

    But hey, what do I know, I’m just one of those lost egalitarians.


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    @ Anon 1:

    And that’s because we’re supposed to stay under their messed up version of the curse forever? . . . I guess Jesus came for no reason and has no power to change our lives? It bothers me that this group is always trying to put women back under the curse, instead of leading them to the relationship they had with God BEFORE the fall and curse. Ummm that would be when God said he was VERY pleased with mankind; when man and woman stood before God naked and unashamed; the woman had no man “covering” for her. But, hey, if they want to live “under” the curse, then by all means have at it. I prefer the freedom I have in Christ!


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    I’ve never been pregnant, nor particularly wanted children myself.

    Some Christians are “Child Free,” by the way – they deliberately choose not to have children. They are another huge under-represented group in American Christianity.

    I was not dead set on having kids (if I got married), but I was not all baby-crazy, ‘I just gotta have one,’ either.

    From the original post:

    Women today still struggle with the desire to usurp their husband’s leadership.

    Actually, no, it’s the opposite with many women.

    The Bible was saying in Genesis that women would desire their husbands, as in, many women would look to a husband to play a “Savior” role and to meet all her needs, and to provide for and protect her, instead of looking to God for guidance/ protection/ provision/ salvation.

    This is called codependency (or “fear of man” in the Bible).

    A result of the Fall is that many women voluntarily give up their decision making, power, and control to a man, if the man will control them, provide for them, take on all or most responsibility, etc.

    The Bible says this is bad or unhealthy for people.

    The Bible teaches personal responsibility and accountability for all individuals, regardless of gender. Each person answers to God alone for his/her choices and actions.

    But gender complementarians ironically hold this model up of a woman giving up all or most of her power/ control, etc, to a husband, or some other man.

    Christ is the only mediator between humanity and God, but some factions of complementarians teach a wife has to go through a husband, that the male is the “priest of the home” etc. The Bible teaches the absolute opposite of that.

    The Bible warns against codependency and in favor of personal accountability for each person, but your gender complementarians teach the exact, direct opposite, and teach it as a virtue to be emulated and upheld, and the solution for all of society’s problems.


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    I meant “dead set AGAINST having kids” in my last post


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    @ Clay Crouch:

    So true! They do understand how to point people to “man centeredness” don’t they?


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    “If there is anyone out there in the complementarian camp who could please define exactly what consitutes male only leadership? So far, it seems to boil down to the guy gets the tie-breaking vote and women cannot be pastors or elders.”

    The longer I think about the “trump card” idea, the more it bothers me. Everyone always brings it back to “submit unless he asks you to sin,” but I recently realized that, in light of Romans 14, it’s really much bigger than that. Not only can Christian husbands not ask their wife to sin, they can’t ask her to violate her conscience. And the trump card idea seems to me to be used most often in involved debates about “big stuff” (money, homeschooling, how many kids, etc.). And it’s exactly these kinds of issues where conscience can come into play.

    For example, what if the wife thinks homeschooling is a mandate from God and the husband doesn’t? I personally would agree that the wife is wrong, but the solution isn’t for the husband to strongarm her into doing something she thinks is sin. This is called “causing your sister to stumble.” The only way to get around this, to me, is for a Christian husband to redefine his Christian wife as not his sister…and good luck with that one.

    “Hey Deb, did it last about 20 minutes or did it feel like 20 minutes?”

    Only 20 minutes? Slacker. My PCA ex-pastor used to do 35-45…and he wasn’t nearly as charismatic as C. J.


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    I think although the ground and the serpent were cursed, Adam and Eve still had to take consequences/punishment for their actions. But although I don’t have a knowledge of the original Hebrew, I think the interpretation of “Your desire will be for your husband” as “your desire will be to rule over your husband/usurp his authority” is stretching it a bit. Isn’t it rather that the female’s desire would henceforth be for her husband but that he would “rule over her”, ie the relationship would be less than the ideal originally conceived by God.

    But I stand open to correction if anyone can elucidate the passage better.


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    Dee –

    I started reading the “girls” post earlier in the week and just about tossed my cookies. Is it just me, or are they becoming more man-daddy-pastor-husband-centered since they have all relocated to Louisville?


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    I’m so very unsettled.

    “Please Pastor, remind us lowly women how cursed we are! Don’t ever let us forget it! Rub it in our faces, and make us say thank you!”

    Am I the only one that detects a wee hint of misogony there? And self-loathing?

    The Gender Gospel is gross.

    I prefer the Gospel of freedom in Christ, not the gospel of “Women are still cursed and you should remind them all the time, just in case we aren’t reminding ourselves enough!”


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    You quoted the lady at the other blog as saying on her site,

    Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands… your beauty should not come from outward adornment…

    That is quite funny because at a gender complementarian site (run by women), they sell a DVD telling Christian ladies their value comes from within, but the rest of the DVD they are pitching has beauty tips, like how to fix your hair, how to diet, etc.

    The gender complementarians want it both ways on this.

    They like to assure Christian ladies that their value lies in being a daughter of God and in their “inner characteristics,” but they also hawk eye-liner and lip-stick products or dieting advice to them.

    In addition, we single Christian ladies desiring marriage (such as me) are often told on their blogs and sermons that Jesus thinks we are lovable as-is, but, if we want a husband, we must work out at the gym, have long hair, lose 20 pounds, always wear pretty dresses, etc.

    We’re told by them that our looks don’t matter but that they do matter. We shouldn’t worry over our looks, but we should.

    At least I’m old enough to tune this garbage out, or not let it bother me too much, but I feel sorry for any insecure teen females or 20 something women who see it.

    Re:

    Here Peter exhorts women to cultivate a gentle and quiet spirit, not a domineering, manipulative one, as they live under their husband’s leadership. In so doing, women display the gospel.

    Was Jael in the Old Testament being all gentle and quiet when she drove a pent stake through the head of a napping Israeli enemy?

    Christian gender complementarianism re-enforces and compounds secular society’s conditioning of codependent behavior in women.

    Women are conditioned to repress all anger, assertive behavior, and so will not speak up to their spouses (or to any one) to say directly what they want and need.

    Which is why some Christian women are passive-aggressive, catty, and use manipulation to get what they want.

    So, if you don’t want Christian woman to be manipulative, it means telling them it’s all right to be frank with their spouses and to disagree with them, and that they don’t always have to defer to their husbands.

    But most gender complementarians will never agree to any of that that, and so the cycle perpetuates.

    Re:

    -How were the women good examples (or not) of putting their hope in God as they submitted to their husbands?
    -Did they help their husbands follow God, or did they lead them away from him…

    There’s that bias against single women again, at least that’s how I perceive it.

    It’s simply assumed that all Christian women are married or will be married. We’re not and may never be.

    There is something else amiss in their “submission” rhetoric when it revolves around only married women, and it often does.

    There’s a verse that tells all Christians, regardless of gender or marital status, to submit to each other, but the complementarians never quote that one.

    Re, quote by lady at the other site:

    So we need to ask ourselves: Is the preaching of God’s Word from our local church pastor the most important event in our lives each week?

    Since I am over 40 years old, was never married and never had had children, and since most pastors preach on basically nothing but marriage and parenting… my answer to that is a big, fat ‘No.’ 🙂


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    I like the pastor at my church, but I can’t imagine thinking he was the center of my world and my conduit to God. Pastors can be wonderful examples, but what if they turn out to be someone, like, I don’t know…CJ Mahaney?

    This is really my problem with this brand of complementarianism in general. If you’re going to be living a life of integrity, I don’t see how it can ever make sense to be always shifting responsibility to another human being, whether husband or pastor. People who make a habit of suspending their own judgment to always defer to others let their consciences atrophy. Take all these authority figures away and what kind of person are you? Isn’t that what matters?


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    pent stake = tent stake. 🙂


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    @ lilyrosemary:
    But secretly I just want to usurp authority, I guess! I must have easily deceived myself!


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    Dee said: “Why does she believe that the result of Eve’s fall is now the pejorative for relationships between men and women? Could it be that the man’s “rule” over the wife is not meant to be a good thing but, in fact, a bad thing because of the fall?”

    My, my, my. LOL. The best thing I’ve read all day. And, a darn good point at that!


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    @ Anon 1:
    Men have something that covers something, unless is was removed. Women do not have that. So maybe that is the “covering” being referred to. In some Jewish communities, that “covering”, after it is removed, is preserved as a momento for the young man as he matures!


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    Kolya wrote:

    I think although the ground and the serpent were cursed, Adam and Eve still had to take consequences/punishment for their actions. But although I don’t have a knowledge of the original Hebrew, I think the interpretation of “Your desire will be for your husband” as “your desire will be to rule over your husband/usurp his authority” is stretching it a bit. Isn’t it rather that the female’s desire would henceforth be for her husband but that he would “rule over her”, ie the relationship would be less than the ideal originally conceived by God.
    But I stand open to correction if anyone can elucidate the passage better.

    I was listening to a program (women’s program) recently when Al Mohler was giving his speech about how for centuries we may have misinterpreted this passage. How from ‘research’ they are finding its suppose to read….get this….

    Your Desire will be against your husband, and he will rule over you.

    He goes on to say almost that women want all world domination type of speech. It truly was silly.

    It seems to me they are attempting to re interrupt the bible to fit their current agenda. How women at heart are power mongers, etc. So they need to go the opposite direction JUST AS HARD to prove they aren’t. To me both extremes are bit nutty.

    What’s strange to me? Their responses to egalitarian’s normally are we have read the bible for centuries this way, and you are trying to change it.

    lol now they are!

    Projection?! OH YEAH! Its sad really.


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    To me, Gen 3:16 has nothing whatever to do with who is to rule over whom between husbands and wives – it’s all about sex and its consequences.

    “ I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing;
    in pain you shall bring forth children”

    Well then, a woman can avoid this consequence by simply not having sex, but God says that’s not going to happen because

    “yet your desire shall be for your husband,”

    So a woman is going to want to have sex with her husband despite the consequences. And here’s the problem, where the next line is popularly translated as:

    “ and he shall rule over you.”

    There are alternative translations that have been offered. One is to translate it as “and he will predominate” in the sense that his desire for sex and children will overcome his wife’s reluctance. Another translation is that “and he do likewise” in the sense that the husband will also desire to have sex with his wife. In either case, it’s all about making sure that the ‘curse’ regarding childbearing is not avoided.

    I know these are minority views but they make so much more sense to me because the consequences to Adam and Eve are all about toil and how hard life is going to be, yet, in the middle of all this there’s a phrase regarding husband’s ruling over wives? It just doesn’t seem to fit.

    Check out the book Discovering Eve : Ancient Israelite Women in Context by Carol Meyers, and this short discussion at http://prodigalthought.net/2010/06/24/the-role-of-women-genesis-316/


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    Must be pledge week at PBS.

    Here in NC we have this tonight.
    Unleash the Power of the Female Brain With Dr. Daniel Amen

    Apparently there are 5 steps.


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    Lynn wrote:

    Must be pledge week at PBS.
    Here in NC we have this tonight.
    Unleash the Power of the Female Brain With Dr. Daniel Amen
    Apparently there are 5 steps.

    Taught by a man, I see. “He addresses the issues women ask about the most including fertility, pregnancy, menopause, weight, stress, anxiety, insomnia, and relationships.” Apparently that’s all women have on their mind.


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    Jeff T
    This is only limited to females who have sex? It does not have any significance to single females? @ JeffT:


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    The constant use of ‘your women’ in that post is just odious. I don’t belong to a man – husband or preacher or father – and the exclusive use of ownership terms when discussing what women need to be told is simply insulting.


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    Dee wrote:

    Jeff T
    This is only limited to females who have sex? It does not have any significance to single females? @ JeffT:

    Dee- I think Gen 3:16 is only thinking abkut single


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    @ JeffT:

    More like that’s what MEN have on their minds concerning how well women will be able to serve men. All those issues could be limiting you know! Best get the little ladies healthy so they can serve the men!


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    Kolya wrote:

    Isn’t it rather that the female’s desire would henceforth be for her husband but that he would “rule over her”, ie the relationship would be less than the ideal originally conceived by God.

    Kolya, I have always seen God’s words to Eve as a warning…that if she “stretched out toward” her husband, he would rule over her. Katherine Bushnell clearly shows that the word translated “desire” changed from “stretching out toward” as a result of the Babylonian Talmud. You can access her book, “God’s Word to Women” on line. Bushnell was a scholar of both Hebrew and Greek.

    Another compelling reason for rejecting the rule of husbands as a command is the absence of any such command to Adam or any other male in scripture. Not once do we find such a command directed to men. That’s been conveniently overlooked and ignored purposely.

    In addition, every once of the consequences prophesied by God in Gen. 3 are negative, adverse conditions. Most have been overcome over the years as mankind struggled to eleviate a woman’s pain in childbirth, produce “RoundUp” and mulch to inhibit the growth of thorns and thistles, and men have left the job as farmers and tilling the ground by the sweat of his brow for a more chushy job in an air-conditioned environment.

    There’s only one in the list of consequences that we’ve yet to overcome.


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    You know, as a Catholic, I’ve heard very few homilies that have dealt with marriage and/or children. Maybe because we have a three year cycle of readings it helps. The Ephasians 5 reading comes up every few years but I heard one homily about how each spouse was to help the other get to Heaven, not lord it over one spouse. The most recent involved how a wife was to open herself to being loved by her husband and that struck me especially in today’s world where many women are abused, don’t receive love, are taught love is something to give but not receive. So here was a man saying that it was alright, even good, that a woman should be loved and feel that love from a man, not just God.

    Yet there are many Catholic women who try and force these heretical ideas about women being inferior and being submissive to their husbands on other Catholic women with the idea if they don’t comply they are bad wives, mothers, Catholics, etc. and going to Hell. But it isn’t Catholic teaching. This has all seeped in from the fringe evangelicals, very fringe Catholics, and a whole lot of fear.

    So it pisses me off when women try and force other women into believing this garbage through the use of shame tactics along with appeals to “the Gospel™”. This isn’t code it’s regurgitated lies and garbage except that now people are seeing what it really is. There is nothing biblical about bullying. Apparently, they don’t realize passing this garbage off as the Bread of Life that will get you Heaven is a terrible idea and that few people are going to buy into it.

    So Nancy, Mahany, 9Marks, et al.: SHUT UP! We are mad as Hell and we’re not going to take this garbage any more. As you can read at TWW, we’re on to you and we will not be silent.

    Now I’m embarassed. Getting off my soapbox now to quietly hide and beat myself up over my comment.


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    56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC wrote:

    @ Anon 1:
    Men have something that covers something, unless is was removed. Women do not have that. So maybe that is the “covering” being referred to. In some Jewish communities, that “covering”, after it is removed, is preserved as a momento for the young man as he matures!

    Why thank you 56 years for that lovely mental image. :o)


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    Dee:

    I think Gen 3:16 is only thinking in terms of the marriage relationship here and single adults having sex is not in the picture. Maybe I wasn’t clear. I meant that God imposed pain in childbirth as a consequence on Eve, which Eve could avoid by simply not having sex with her husband – no sex, no childbirth, no pain. But God established a mutual desire between the two so that they they would want to have sex with the result being childbirth. In that sense I meant it’s all about not being able to avoid sex and it’s consequences (painful childbirth), and it’s got nothing to do with husbands ruling over wives or wives wanting to rule over husbands.

    Am I making sense yet? Sometimes I’m not sure – I get pretty wound up on this topic because my wife is a minister and has to deal with this comp nonsense and I go off on rant without being real clear.


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    I became convinced a while back as comp doctrine started to become part of the Gospel that if we do not get Gen 3 somewhat right we are doomed to teach sin as virtue. I went on a bit of a quest and found some really great scholarship that is worthy of your time.

    As for “your desire will be….” the typical interpretation makes no sense in light of history. Women started being oppressed soon after and we see no real indicator of women trying to rule over men early on. In fact, we see just the opposite as God ordered Adam out of the garden and Eve followed. But all we have to do is look at history and see the opposite no matter what you think about Eve following Adam.

    So what is going on? We can blame it on a Monk named Pagnini around the 1300’s who changed “teshuqa” from “turning” to desire. The real understand is BECAUSE Eve turned to Adam (instead of God), Adam would rule over her.

    Eve could have turned to God. That does not negate her relationship with Adam at all. She would look to God. That is exactly what women are to do today. Look to Christ. Not man.

    That passage is descriptive not a command, either. God is predicting what they will do.

    Katherine Bushnell has some great scholarship on this. Here is a chart she created based on the history of the translation of teshuqa.

    http://godswordtowomen.org/teshuqa_chart.pdf

    Here is a link to one of Bushnells lessons on this passage. She covers much more:

    http://godswordtowomen.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/teshuqa-and-the-meaning-of-genesis-316/

    Turning to man instead of Christ is wrong. They teach sin as a virtue for women and it is insidious.


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    I’m frankly stunned by the assertion that the preacher’s sermon is the most important event in anyone’s week. This sentence: “The preaching event, being addressed by God through the reading and proclamation of His Word, is the most important event in the life of this church every week.” just blows my mind. Jesus urged His followers to practice the Lord’s Supper/Communion/Eucharist until He returns. He said nothing about preaching or pastors or Sunday meetings. All those are manmade traditions….nothing wrong with them but NOT a mandate from Christ Himself. No wonder these preachers and their churches are in such serious trouble.


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    My *favorite* quote on the “usurping” topic is from Kevin DeYoung describing the fall: “Have you ever noticed that after Eve sins by taking a bite of the fruit, who does God first address? Adam. He was to be responsible. And yet he abdicated the very authority that he was supposed to lovingly exercise. And Eve, contrary to design, usurped her husband’s authority.” http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/2011/06/23/Male-and-Female-on-Purpose.aspx
    As to the “pain in childbearing”, a young elder-in-training was husband to a midwife. He advised a first-time father-to-be to not feel/express too much sympathy for his laboring wife (with no anesthetic) because the pain would help her bond with the baby better. I disagreed strongly. Later he advised the father-to-be not to worry if he didn’t bond with the baby for several months (presumably since the dad didn’t get to experience the labor pains). I disagreed once again, saying I “bonded” with all my children immediately, even before birth. I looked this up on the internet and found a British midwife (a man) who seems to have thought this up. Or maybe, since the elder-to-be is a Neo-Puritan, it’s a Puritan thing. Anyway, the new mom had a very long and very agonizing labor with only what “natural” remedies the midwife provided.


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    Jeff T,, that is one of the problems with the bad translation of “desire”. Another bad one was “appetite”. It made it out to be sexual when it was relational.

    Eve chose badly. Just as we choose badly if we look to our husbands as a sort of Priest/Prophet figure instead of partner. (Ezer Kegnado is also badly translated as help meet when we know that God is referred to as an Ezer)


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    JeffT wrote:

    Lynn wrote:
    Must be pledge week at PBS.
    Here in NC we have this tonight.
    Unleash the Power of the Female Brain With Dr. Daniel Amen
    Apparently there are 5 steps.
    Taught by a man, I see. “He addresses the issues women ask about the most including fertility, pregnancy, menopause, weight, stress, anxiety, insomnia, and relationships.” Apparently that’s all women have on their mind.

    Best I quit studying Greek then.


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    “My *favorite* quote on the “usurping” topic is from Kevin DeYoung describing the fall: “Have you ever noticed that after Eve sins by taking a bite of the fruit, who does God first address? Adam. He was to be responsible. And yet he abdicated the very authority that he was supposed to lovingly exercise. And Eve, contrary to design, usurped her husband’s authority”

    McArthur says that Adam was in sin for listening to his wife. As if Adam was some dumb jock or something. In fact, McArthur teaches that Adam was not even there when Eve did it. She had to go and seek Adam out and entice him to eat it with her purring voice, I suppose. McArthur went on and on about the voice.

    Cheryl Schatz has a ton of the bad teaching quotes on her DVD series Women in Ministry, Silenced or Set Free. I recommend it.

    Here is what they often leave out. Eve ADMITTED to being deceived. Adam blamed God and Eve. For me, that is the real problem because Adam sinned knowingly and lied. He was “keeper” of the garden which some point out is also a “guarding” position. He WAS working before the fall. And we know evil existed then because there is a tree called “knowledge of good and evil”.


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    @ Hannah Thomas:

    He goes on to say almost that women want all world domination type of speech. It truly was silly.

    I have absolutely no desire to dominate the world or another person. It would take too much effort… and I’m too lazy for that.

    As I said above, the opposite is usually true with many women any how, most are looking to a human male to “save” them and protect them, when they are supposed to look to God.


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    Here’s how by Carol Meyers describes her interpretation of Gen 3:16 in Discovering Eve : Ancient Israelite Women in Context :

    It is against this background of the mortal risks involved in childbearing that the oracle of Genesis 3:16 must be seen. How does a woman overcome an understandable reluctance to have many children? The natural sexual and emotional desire that she experiences toward her mate is the answer. And this is accompanied by the male’s response to her, which the last line of the oracle proclaims.

    The words of line 4 are perhaps the most problematic in all the Hebrew Bible from a feminist perspective. They seem to establish an absolute and hierarchical dominance of males over females. . . . Thus, modern exegetes along with the ancient expositors have understood the last line of the oracle as divine approval of the social conditions of patriarchal control.


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    JeffT wrote:

    Well then, a woman can avoid this consequence by simply not having sex, but God says that’s not going to happen because
    “yet your desire shall be for your husband,”

    I am a female, don’t have a husband, and haven’t had sex ever, and have had opportunities to have sex. I’m over 40 years old.

    People can control sexual behavior or not allow desire to dominate them, so I don’t buy that interpretation.


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    I believe Satan has a special reserved hate for women because of the childbearing:

    And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring[a] and hers;
    he will crush[b] your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”

    I fear that all who teach that Gen 3 is saying that women want to rule over men are actually helping Satan.


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    Dee wrote, “I have often said that I have never once in my life heard anyone say “Gee, look at Fred and Martha, the “image” the role of the Son to the Father or the church to the Son is now clear.” If this is hoped for, I would say it has been an epic fail. Could anyone give me any examples of a couple that lead us to “image” such a thing?”
    There are none because they have it bass-ackwards. IF we are Disciples of Jesus and happen to be married, we can look to his relationship with the Church to “image” how we should love our spouse.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    (Ezer Kegnado is also badly translated as help meet when we know that God is referred to as an Ezer)

    You are so right. The ezer issue in Gen 2:18 is one of the biggest frauds committed by comps for just that reason. In Gen 2:18 ezer comps say ‘helper’ is a subordinate role, while as you noted, there are scores of places where God is a ‘helper’ (ezer) to humans, so does that mean God has a subordinate role to man? I think a number of celebrity preachers think that’s God’s role with respect to them.


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    @ Pacbox:

    *applause applause*
    I liked your comments. Please don’t apologize for them. 🙂


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    I actually usurp and repeat on a routine basis.


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    @ JeffT:

    it’s all about not being able to avoid sex and it’s consequences (painful childbirth

    But you can avoid sex. I’m still a virgin in my 40s.

    There’s also birth control. People don’t have to get pregnant these days.

    About your comment about singles and sex. There are some Christian singles who have remained virgins into their 40s and beyond, but there are a significant number of Christian singles of all ages having sex outside of marriage.

    Many Christian singles don’t feel inhibited by the teaching that sex is for the “marriage bed” only.

    If these single Christians are not into full blown sex (usual sex, i.e., the missionary position), they find other sexual activities/ positions to engage in, shall we say.


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    OK, people, very interesting conversation and most of you made good points but anyone that argues that we women are cursed up to the present time because of those or any other cited verses are FULL OF SHIT!!

    Why?

    So simple a mere woman can articulate the reason because JESUS BROKE the (any and all) CURSE at the CROSS and the consequence of any curse was placed upon Jesus and we are now under GRACE and to say anything to the contrary dishonors what Jesus did for us!

    But, if you insist, your presumption is flawed because the original word estev that is rendered writhing agonizing horrific pain for childbearing women is rendered hard work for men farming. Sweat of the brow and all.

    I had eight children without pain meds and it was managable with the help of a skilled midwife.

    If a woman needs pain relief, we have medicine for that just like we have tractors and other farming equipment.

    The rest of it (desire for our husbands and the ruling over) is an observation not an endorsement of the practice.

    The very last thing on this earth I am going to take seriously is some patriarchal windbag spewing more anti-woman swill as though he must to compensate for his own shortcomings.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    Turning to man instead of Christ is wrong. They teach sin as a virtue for women and it is insidious.

    Yep.

    That is my understanding of that Bible passage, and I am in total agreement with you about the gender complementarians portraying something that is a result of sin as something we should all aspire to.

    Why are all the fairy tales so popular to so many women for so long (white knight rescues the pretty princess from the dragon), or all the teen age girl hulabaloo over sparkly vampire Ed Cullen who rescuses Bella? Because women are looking to some perfect Fantasy Man to rescue, care for, and protect them, rather than to God.

    But your gender comps keep teaching Christian women to keep waiting and looking for the White Knight or for Ed Cullen.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Pacbox

    The explanation I posted above from Carol Myers at 10:02 says it better than I did here. Having a large family back then was necessary for survival back then in the harsh environment of Israel and Gen 3:16 is really just the Bible’s explanation for why women still went ahead and had many children at that time despite the fact that they litterally risked their lives every time they got pregnant.


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    Daisy wrote:

    @ JeffT:
    it’s all about not being able to avoid sex and it’s consequences (painful childbirth
    But you can avoid sex. I’m still a virgin in my 40s.
    There’s also birth control. People don’t have to get pregnant these days.
    About your comment about singles and sex. There are some Christian singles who have remained virgins into their 40s and beyond, but there are a significant number of Christian singles of all ages having sex outside of marriage.
    Many Christian singles don’t feel inhibited by the teaching that sex is for the “marriage bed” only.
    If these single Christians are not into full blown sex (usual sex, i.e., the missionary position), they find other sexual activities/ positions to engage in, shall we say.

    Don’t know what happened in my previous reply. The explanation I posted above from Carol Myers at 10:02 says it better than I did here. Having a large family back then was necessary for survival back then in the harsh environment of Israel and Gen 3:16 is really just the Bible’s explanation for why women still went ahead and had many children at that time despite the fact that they litteraly risked their lives every time they got pregnant.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    McArthur went on and on about the voice.

    This is a tiny bit off topic and only a little related, but it reminds me.

    Over the years when I’ve heard preachers (who are male) or male Christian book authors or TV hosts discuss Adam and Eve, they almost always mention that Eve must have been very physically attractive. They go on and on about how she must have had a great body, looked like a super model, etc.

    One or two of them I saw on television even apologized to any Christian ladies in ear shot during their discussion of Eve’s hotness, as if to say, “sorry ladies, but you are all dogs compared to the hotness that was Eve.”

    1. I don’t recall the text saying anything about what Eve looked like,
    2. I notice the male Christians like this never comment on Adam’s supposed buff body or sexiness, and
    3. that they do focus on Eve’s looks

    I do not know why some Christian males are so obsessed with female physical appearance and Eve’s in particular.


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    I knew i liked you, Natalie. Now back to usurping and all that jazz.@ Natalie:


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    Sadly, the post at 9 Marks was written by a woman.@ Debra Baker:


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    “…so does that mean God has a subordinate role to man?”

    Grudem tried to pass just that exact teaching off in that book he wrote about Evangelical Feminism. He said something like “God submits to us when He helps us”. He gave an example of a parent “submitting” to their child when they help with homework.

    Right.

    I mean, they have a twisted answer for everything.


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    JeffT

    I understand what you are saying but I am not sure I buy that the curse is related to childbirth.  I believe that the curse in Genesis was aimed at all men and women and that it goes way beyond childbirth. I think it has to do with the fact that everything would now change. Everything. They would not walk in the Garden; there would be grief, anger and strife between all the generations and with one another, wars, illness, pain and suffering. 


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    “Usurp” has a dictatorial twinge to it, doesn’t it. A relational coup d’ etat.

    I hate that word. I heard that word all the time in the 90’s. There are people who actually think that word is in Genesis 3 because they don’t read for themselves and only go for the “preaching event”. Oh yes, “The most important event of the week”. Talk about man centered thinking!!!


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    dee wrote:

    JeffT

    I understand what you are saying but I am not sure I buy that the curse is related to childbirth.  I believe that the curse in Genesis was aimed at all men and women and that it goes way beyond childbirth. I think it has to do with the fact that everything would now change. Everything. They would not walk in the Garden; there would be grief, anger and strife between all the generations and with one another, wars, illness, pain and suffering. 

    I actually agree – it took me a few posts to finally say what I meant (a bit on the thick side tonight). I shouldn’t have used the word “curse” at all, but you just get used to using because so many do. The real lesson is that life is hard, with both men and women having to work very hard in order to survive, the risks of pregnancy and childbirth being just one part of what made life so hard.


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    @ Daisy:
    I think, for many in the comp camp who have somewhat fragile egos, the only way they can conceive of Adam ‘following’ Ee in sin is if Eve was so hot that her hotness overwhelmed his ability to think. Isn’t that what their modesty teachings imply? It is another back-handed sort of way of saying, “God, the woman you gave me….” and blaming Eve and God for the whole mess….

    As to the translation of Genesis 3:16, having read Katharine Bushnell’s book, I believe the crux of the issue is the changing of the translation of teshuqa to mean ‘desire’ when the word actually means ‘turning.’ It was a warning to Eve that if she turned after her husband away from God, he would lord that over her. And boy, do the comps live out the truth of that warning.

    As to the part where Eve is told her sorrow will be multiplied in childbearing, it reminds me of what the priest Simeon said the Mary when they brought Jesus to be circumcised in Luke 2 ‘….a sword will pierce through your soul, also…’ My take on this is that having and raising children in this fallen world can be heartbreaking. Having to watch the be sick, watch them be hurt, watch them suffer is probably one of the greatest sorrows in a (good) mother’s life. I know I am speaking from the perspective of one who has never had children, but there have been children I care about deeply and I have discussed this topic with close friends who are mothers….so, just my thoughts.


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    Daisy wrote:

    pent stake = tent stake

    Too bad for Sisera. The poor old sod never saw it coming. Tyrants never have a good death.


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    I think, for many in the comp camp who have somewhat fragile egos, the only way they can conceive of Adam ‘following’ Ee in sin is if Eve was so hot that her hotness overwhelmed his ability to think. Isn’t that what their modesty teachings imply? It is another back-handed sort of way of saying, “God, the woman you gave me….” and blaming Eve and God for the whole mess….

    That could be their motivation, but what is even sadder, weirder to me, and even more offensive, is that on most of the occasions Eve’s looks have been mentioned by these male pastors/ authors I’m talking about, it had nothing to do with anything related to marriage, or who shares more blame for The Fall, for sexual sin, etc.

    In some contexts, the pastor (or author) was delivering a generic teaching about sin, or how God planned to redeem humanity or something like that – when out of no where, these male pastors will work in a line or two like,
    “hey, I bet Eve was a real hottie, with senusous long, flowing hair and no lines on her fine face. But anyway, like I was saying about how Christ’s blood redeemed us….”

    And they’re not doing it for humor relief or comic effect.

    I mean they just drop in mentions of Eve’s appearance out of left field, or it’s only tangentially related vis a vis generic talk about the fall, as in,
    “The first humans were Adam and Eve. They ate the forbidden fruit. Oh, by the way, I bet Eve had a great body, and as the very first female, I bet she was smoking hot, she didn’t have any cellulite or wrinkles…”

    I would find such mentions offensive and annoying no matter what, but I could at least find them a little understandable if the topic was specifically about why Adam ate the fruit, or something like that.

    But I’ve seen Christian authors or pastors drag Eve’s looks up in contexts where it seems totally out of place, or very beside the point. It’s very gratuitous, unnecessary.

    If they’re going to do this, I want equal time for the ladies. They need to discuss what dreamy blue eyes Adam had, how we just know he must have had broad shoulders, was six ft four inches tall, etc., how no man today can begin to compare…


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    dee wrote:

    Sadly, the post at 9 Marks was written by a woman.@ Debra Baker:

    Not just any woman…an Elder’s wife. Bari is married to Andrew who was an elder at the time I was a member there. She has the special privilege of being able to tell women what to think because of her husband’s position in the church and also because she is married…in that order. And what she thinks is most likely what her husband thinks. And if she thought any differently, I doubt that 9 Marks would have approved that post. This is a prime example of what privilege in the church looks like. You can scour 9 Marks site and you won’t find many posts by women, but definitely not from single women, widows, women in various stages of life. Even divorced women. Bari is the perfect spokeswoman. She represents what they idolize and worship all too much.

    There is nothing more convincing than to have the elders wives address the women and tell them how to think. And this post is directed towards women, soecifically, because most of the material 9 Marks posts is really directed towards men. It is understood that men are their audience.

    Bari is confused. She needs to have a seat. Or two.


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    Oh my goodness! Someone STOP these people from talking to young girls about the curse of pain in childbirth. I can personally attest to the fact that it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE for young girls to develop an extremely exaggerated fear of birth that can follow them into adulthood and actually affect their feelings about having a child. And if they are being told that this is God’s will for them, they may see their irrational fears as being normal or some kind of just punishment, rather than something to be confronted and healed.

    Good grief. That make me so mad I could throw something at my computer.


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    @ Daisy:
    I see your point. Probably a product, in part, of the comp obsession with sex…and you know she was running around naked, so of course she had to be hot. It would probably give them a heart attack if someone starting talking about Adam that way…..might make them feel disrespected and insecure….bleh….


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    Jeannette,
    I too am a Bushnell fan, and I’m convinced that she can think rings around Grudem, Piper, Burk, and all the rest of the boyz who fear and despise the feminine.

    I think your take on the Genesis narrative and Luke’s account of Mary and Messiah as a baby is refreshing. No deep “gnosis”, no iron-clad Aristotelian doctrinal nonsense, just the gut human feeling of a mother for her child.


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    Eagle-If the mormons are growing faster than the neo-reformed its only natural they might look to them for indoctrination ideas.


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    I hear ya, Jeff T! I don’t have a strong opinion on the meaning of Gen 3:16 except that it isn’t a warning to men about their wives being control freaks who want to usurp their authority and rule over them. God said it to the woman. God said other stuff to the man.

    There are some strong points in support of your theory of this feminine “desire” including a sexual component.

    1. Before the Fall, they were eternal beings so if they had children they would not need to have many of them–> “I will greatly increase your conception”-God to Eve (NOT a curse but redemptive in a situation where the first couple just lost their immortality.)

    2. Nearly ALL animals only mate seasonally. Among animals (besides humans) a female “desire” for the male does not generally exist outside the season of fertility. Why are humans different when a rare “season” like animals would work fine for fulfilling “be fruitful and multiply”? For redemptive purposes IMO.

    3. In the immediate context of the “desire” in question in Gen 3:16, conception, then childbirth mentioned. King context says the desire is related to the conception and childbirth…

    4. This one is anecdotal, but my mother always referred to menstruation as “the curse” and it does come with such unpleasantries as PMS and menopause so I rather think it was not part of Eve’s garden experience

    5. Gen 3:16 indicates that Adam would now “rule over her”. Testosterone is the hormone which drives male aggression. So, perhaps just as Eve had a huge hormonal change upon the Fall, so did Adam.


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    Hey all! This has nothing to do with this post but a friend of mine posted on facebook an excerpt from a blog by Bryan Lorrits who talks about his shock and horror when he reads Doug Wilson’s book Black and Tan. This black minister says that he weeps when he reads this because he can’t believe that he has such a platform when he openly is hostile to the African race… it’s an interesting take from an African American pastor.


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    “Eve, contrary to design, usurped her husband’s authority” – Kevin DeYoung

    “Women today still struggle with the desire to usurp their husband’s leadership.” – Bari Nichols

    As Anon 1 has said, these people truly do teach sin as virtue.

    Ha ha … Since Genesis 3:23 says that God drove the MAN out and banished HIM from the Garden, Eve did an amazing job of exhibiting her desire to “usurp her husband’s leadership/authority” by meekly following him out 🙂


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    So much good commentary here!

    I, too, got a huge belly laugh out of the “girls” stating that the preaching of a sermon is the most important event of a Christian’s week, bwahahahahahahaha.

    What. A. Load.

    Over on the Survivors site, many former SGMers are discussing the fact that sermons were getting recycled/plagarized routinely and verbatim, and by several pastors!

    Just like you can order a Big Mac anywhere in the U.S. and get the same product, you could attend any SGM church and get the same sermon, right down to the supposedly “personal” anecdotes!

    As another poster pointed out, isn’t the partaking of Communion supposed to be the most important part of the week?!

    To repeat: what a load of hooey.

    Anon 1 wrote:

    Turning to man instead of Christ is wrong. They teach sin as a virtue for women and it is insidious.

    Bingo.


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    “Usurp” needs to join “bitter” in the Hall of Shame of Christianese Phrasing, stat!


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    “Eve, contrary to design, usurped her husband’s authority” – Kevin DeYoung

    Translation: “Eve made a single decision for herself that had nothing to do with her husband, without consulting him first.” Oh, the horror! Does that even make any sense, assuming for a moment that Adam really was given this imaginary “authority”? And “contrary to design”? Such an insulting and dangerous line of thinking concerning Eve’s identity as a human being. Concerning every woman’s, and every man’s, for that matter.

    It’s incredible, what passes for Christianity. Over here I have Mark Driscoll echoing horrible messages from abuse in my childhood about the sex toy status of women. (And the abuse was part of a “good” design of God?) Over there I have Todd Friel confirming to me in an e-mail that God does, in fact, have no affection (love) for me, because I am but a worm and probably belong “TO THE DEVIL!!!!” It seems I have no reason to live unless I get married, because my entire identity was intended to be wrapped up in a man, and I cannot or at least should not think for myself or make any of my own decisions in life. Just a few lessons in Christianity…

    (I am pretty sick right now and might not be making much sense…)


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    Eagle wrote:

    WWJP

    Why, CJ Mahaney of course!

    The self-interested arrogance of Mahaney’s immediate family members informing Christians that listening to sermons should be the weekly high point of their faith is breathtaking.

    Conflict of interest, anyone?


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    I’m contending with being sick and having insomnia … so when I read comments about how complementarians think Eve must have been super-hot my only guess for why that would be is because they’re thinking about how Eve wouldn’t have access to soap, shampoo, razors or perfumes or deoderants. She wouldn’t have shaved any hair off any part of her, she probably probably only trimmed her nails by biting or peeling, she wouldn’t have brushed or flossed her teeth … and yet somehow still inspired Adam to sing a song about her. Now if that’s what complementarians mean by Eve being beautiful, well, okay.


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    Rafiki – absolutely a conflict of interest.

    As my dad likes to say to our church on Sunday morning: “The preaching event, being addressed by God through the reading and proclamation of His Word, is the most important event in the life of this church every week.”

    Since “my dad” is addressing the whole church, I think it’s safe to say that the preaching event is his big moment. Whereas Paul instructed Corinth about the fact that “when you come together, everyone has…” and goes on to describe some of the contributions that anyone might bring.

    Women today still struggle with the desire to usurp their husband’s leadership.

    A sweeping generalisation. I agree that any believer who habitually belittles and attempts to subjugate his/her spouse is wrong, but that is hardly a uniquely female prerogative. Many women today actually struggle with their husbands’/boyfriends’ desire to abuse them physically, verbally and sexually.

    And in any case, many abuses both inside and outside of the professing church do not stem from women’s desire for control and authority, but from men’s. The large majority of abusive churches were set up and run by some man or other who allowed his desire to “plant, penetrate, conquer…” to bypass the cross. No believer, male or female, is authorised to plant, penetrate and conquer others, no matter how much they may present this as an attempt to gospel them with the gospel gospel.


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    dee wrote:

    JeffT

    I understand what you are saying but I am not sure I buy that the curse is related to childbirth.  I believe that the curse in Genesis was aimed at all men and women and that it goes way beyond childbirth. I think it has to do with the fact that everything would now change. Everything. They would not walk in the Garden; there would be grief, anger and strife between all the generations and with one another, wars, illness, pain and suffering. 

    This makes a whole let of sense. It is immediately AFTER the Fall that the woman is named Eve, the mother of all living. I believe this makes it clear that when God talks about the woman’s children He is speaking of the human race.


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    Incidentally, I trust you all noticed what I did there…

    It is commonly observed here at TWW that, in some circles, “gospel” has been adopted as an adjective. Generally, it is used to mean approved, acceptable or doctrinally/ideologically/culturally appropriate.

    I propose that we go the whole hog (don’t know what that means in the U.S. but I promise you it isn’t rude over here) and make it a verb as well.

    Thus: to gospel 1 (trans) To act towards someone in a manner that is gospel. 2 (intrans) To adopt customs, traditions or a lifestyle that is conspicuously gospel.


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    Eagle
    This is good thing to remember as you evaluate what pastors/teachers have to say. Understand their “hot buttons” and watch for it as thy interpret Scripture. I believe that these guys are placing there own biases on the text instead of allowing the text to speak for itself.

    When Eve was created, God did not command Adam to rule over her and watch her like a hawk. From my perspective, she was a free agent and had full moral agency. @ Eagle:


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    How about waxing eloquent on the verses that tell a man to love his wife enough to die for her? Why can’t we beat that one to the ground, over and over, emphasize it continually, and then see what a wife is willing to do for her husband, with that kind of love in the background?

    How about some sermons on what a wife is to do if her husband sexually abuses a child? How about helping her turn him in to the authorities?


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    JeffT
    The risks of pregnancy decline in countries which have excellent medical care and followup. Child birth is not so difficult when pain management is employed. The reason I have had trouble with the childbirth curse is that science/medicine can find ways to overcome the problems. So, the curse would only be in effect until good medicine came on the scene?

    The ravages of sin is what makes the Biblical narrative ring true to me. In spite of science and medicine, there is still Newtown and dictators who hurt their people. It is a soul sickness that can find no cure in medicine.@ JeffT:


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    Eagle Was it Bryan Loritts or his father Crawford Loritts? The reason I ask is because Crawford came and spoke at my daughter's campus crusade group at NC State a few years ago. Just checking… 😉


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    Trina
    Thank you for your insight. I believe that many churches tell you what to think, not how to think. I believe the best way to evaluate someone’s thoughts is to sit, think about the overall progression of the Bible and then ask questions.

    For example, in this instance, we are told that Adam and Eve represented all of us. What is said to them therefore should impact us now.Then think about women. Not all women marry and not all women have children. if this is meant to only be about childbirth, then why is God leaving a whole bunch of women out?

    Then, I look at childbirth. With my first, I had a fast labor and I got to the hospital too late for an epidural which I had planned. Yes, it hurt but it was over with within a few hours for me and by the next day I felt fine. I then had two more children with epidurals. The nurse had to tell me to put the newspaper down because birth was imminent. (I was a news junkie back then as well.)My knee replacement surgery was far more painful and the pain lasted for several weeks.

    If that is the case, do curses only last until good medicine comes around? That makes no sense to me as well. I think sometimes we get so bogged down in parsing an individual verses that we overlook the big picture. @ Trina:


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    @ Charis:

    The problem with your interpretation is the word is not about “desire” at all. It is “turning”. Eve would be turning to Adam instead of God.


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    MM wrote:

    Ha ha … Since Genesis 3:23 says that God drove the MAN out and banished HIM from the Garden, Eve did an amazing job of exhibiting her desire to “usurp her husband’s leadership/authority” by meekly following him out

    This is exactly right. Cheryl Schatz does an excellent job of exegeting this on her DVD series. It is amazing how much is read INTO Genesis and how much is ignored.

    Eve “turned” to Adam instead of God.


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    Having complimentarians in my family, “leadership” means that the man is in charge of everything. Spiritual leader of the home, head decision maker on all topics.

    What I never understood from the time I grew up in an IFB church to now was this, if Eve was deceived and Adam flat out disobeyed God, why was Adam rewarded by being put in a position where Eve would have to grant all his wishes and desires??? Isn’t that like God rewarding Adam for being sinful???

    Another question, why does this crowd insist on putting a divide between the sexes? What sinful pride they must have to want to look at another creation of God, being woman, as beneath them.


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    dee wrote:

    The reason I have had trouble with the childbirth curse is that science/medicine can find ways to overcome the problems. So, the curse would only be in effect until good medicine came on the scene?

    This is my problem with it, too. Men now “toil” in air conditioned offices, too.
    It is dangerous to get this mindset that the pain is good and not something we should not seek to alleviate. This is where the anti intellectualism comes from. Christians should be seeking to cure cancer.

    These things were consequences to the fall. The curses were on land and animals. Not the humans. A consequence is also that we physically die. Which automatically makes me think of our Blessed Savior!


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    lilyrosemary

    There is no question that God is telling Adam and Eve about bad things to come through the generations while at the same time hinting at a solution that will come through those descendants. That is why i find it difficult to understand why some comps take “the man will rule over her” and think that is a net positive. In fact, the way it played out in history, women were usually treated by men, and their legislation, as “things to be owned.”

    I think Downtown Abbey shows how this played out in the last century. Lady Grantham, an American, brought a fortune to the British Grantham estate. Due to British law, it was immediately absorbed and no longer hers. It would then be passed down to the next heir of Grantham who had to be male. The Granthams had daughters, no sons which meant the money would pass to a distant male cousin. The daughters were not allowed to inherit their mother’s money only because the had the misfortune of being born “female.”

    I remember thinking about Adam and Eve when I watched episodes that addressed this issue. I think this is classic illustration of the problem inherent in making this “rule” verse appear to be an instruction on gender roles.
    @ lilyrosemary:


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    HUG
    Great comment for being sick. I hope you get well soon!@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:


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    Rafiki
    I believe the sermon that Deb and I heard was a recycled sermon except for the 20 minute description of the Duke basketball game. Bet he merely inserts a different team when he visits another area.@ Rafiki:


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    no matter how much they may present this as an attempt to gospel them with the gospel gospel.

    I am immediately transported back to the seminal film of my early 20s, “Swingers” featuring a (very!)young Vince Vaughn who used the noun “money” as a superlative:

    “You are so money, baby!”

    Nick, all I can say is you are SO gospel, baby! 🙂


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    Robin
    Thabiti is discussing this issue over at The Gospel Coalition. Some of the comments by Wilson followers are downright jaw dropping.@ Robin:


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    Dee, It was not until the 20th Century women were really emancipated. My grandmother a lovely believer who graduated from college and went on to study at Moody in the early part of the Century, lobbied for the vote. So did my grandfather. And she grew up in America, the land of the free!


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    One can make the Bible say anything one likes. That is the problem.@ Anon 1:


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    Scooter’s Mom wrote:

    Another question, why does this crowd insist on putting a divide between the sexes? What sinful pride they must have to want to look at another creation of God, being woman, as beneath them.

    THIS. x1000. The narrative of scripture is one of reconciliation. Complementarianism, in my opinion, perpetuates the animosity between men and women instead of pointing towards reconciliation. First, all they do is continue to blame the woman. Then, it is like 2 siblings who can’t get along so they think the solution is to draw a line down the middle of the room and stay on their side of the line. Or it is like doing a group project in school where you don’t really work together, you just divide up the work and throw it together in the end, hoping it works.

    True “complementarianism” would acknowledge there is strength in the reconciliation of men and women truly partnering together. This means BOTH men and women in leadership, teaching, caring for children, etc…each offering their strengths as men and women.


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    Eagle,

    Thanks! You probably already know that Bryan Loritts will be speaking in our fine city next week at the Advance 13 conference. I don’t know anything about Bryan, but plan to do a little investigating.


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    Kristin, Your comment brought this question to mind… Is the Southern Baptist Convention better off after going down the complementarian rabbit trail (BFM 2000)? What has happened in the last dozen years to the SBC?

     


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    Kristin wrote:

    The narrative of scripture is one of reconciliation. Complementarianism, in my opinion, perpetuates the animosity between men and women instead of pointing towards reconciliation. First, all they do is continue to blame the woman.

    YES!!! It keeps us looking to humans and whether they are in their proper role instead of looking to Christ. We are back to “turning” the wrong way.


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    Dee,

    It was definitely 20 minutes… The church substituted another “Cravings and Conflicts” message for that one on its website. It certainly appeared to me that CJ gets more excited about sports than the gospel.

    Since Chad and a son-in-law were with him, I wonder if the idea of Mahaney Sports Talk was conjured up that weekend. I was gonna say ‘birthed that weekend’ but that description might upset these manly men.


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    dee wrote:

    The ravages of sin is what makes the Biblical narrative ring true to me. In spite of science and medicine, there is still Newtown and dictators who hurt their people. It is a soul sickness that can find no cure in medicine.

    Dee:

    I would tend to agree with that. I’m pretty much a liberal {gasp!} so I read Gen 3:16-17 as the Bible’s explanation for why life was so hard back in the several centuries BCE when the Bible was written with no thought to how life can be made easier with improvements and medicine and labor-saving devices. It’s just an explanation of the times they lived in.

    The real key for me, and what is applicable for all time, is the fact that humans know what’s good and what’s evil and have the power to choose for themselves which path to follow. This power of choice is what makes evil possible and sin is the act of choosing evil, which is why we need the Holy Spirit to help us make the right choices- which pretty much makes me an Arminian if not something of a semi-Pelagian {double gasp!!}.


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    It seems to me that relational health was broken by the Fall and the curses merely spelled out what that meant.

    Women were going to be subject to abuse, rape and the endless degrading process of submission simply because they were the smaller and physically weaker human. In the cold harsh fallen world, the stronger/bigger would run things. The vulnerability was only increased because they were the childbearers, which childbirth pain further accentuated. So they would constantly have to keep an eye on the males.

    Implied in the curse is the immense vulnerability of children in the new nasty relational structure where the biggest wins.

    That’s how I see it. But the thing that makes me laugh is that Reformational stance also covers working in creation to redeem and mitigate the consequences of the Fall. That is one of the reasons it is named “reformed”—remake, reconstitute, restore, reconcile, etc. So to use the obvious results of the Fall as the raison d’etre for current living is essentially to deny the work of Christ, who broke the power of evil.

    Female Mahaney: “As my dad likes to say to our church on Sunday morning: “The preaching event, being addressed by God through the reading and proclamation of His Word, is the most important event in the life of this church every week.””

    For me, the worst implication in this statement is that the sermon is an “address by God”. Jist like them/thar Catholic priests back in the day. Oh noes!!! It’s another good example of fallenness still worming itself through our lives.


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    dee wrote:

    I think Downtown Abbey shows how this played out in the last century. Lady Grantham, an American, brought a fortune to the British Grantham estate. Due to British law, it was immediately absorbed and no longer hers. It would then be passed down to the next heir of Grantham who had to be male. The Granthams had daughters, no sons which meant the money would pass to a distant male cousin. The daughters were not allowed to inherit their mother’s money only because the had the misfortune of being born “female.”

    Dee (and Guy Behind The Curtain): I sent a response previously but got a server upgrade error for a few minutes so apologies for this duplicate post (feel free to delete it if my earlier post shows up in the ethernet).

    Anyhooo – currently, in the Year of Our Lord 2013, of the 54 independent sovereign nations that comprise the African continent, a paltry handful extend inheritance rights for property to women.

    Botswana (only last October mind you!), South Africa, Ethiopia, Ghana, and Nigeria come to mind as having implemented some legal reforms (though traditions and customary laws are followed in practice) allowing women to inherit land, houses, and other property.

    In the vast majority of countries women are denied any inheritance, period. How this plays out in real life is when a woman’s husband dies, she can be immediately rendered homeless (and often is) as the house and land go to the son or other close male relative.

    Just because one’s son now owns the property doesn’t mean a guarantee of housing or security for a widow at all!

    Land reform is a hugely tricky, complex, and hot button issue in this part of the world and reform is slow-going to put it lightly.

    I believe women’s inheritance rights, however, can and should be tackled bit by bit straight away.

    Off my soapbox now – bottom line is that, as you noted, the Fall remains in full effect and “the way it played out in history, women were usually treated by men, and their legislation, as “things to be owned.”


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    “So to use the obvious results of the Fall as the raison d’etre for current living is essentially to deny the work of Christ, who broke the power of evil.”

    Very good point to bring out. We are to be the Kingdom right now. Which is one of the powers over evil. We are not stuck contemplating our sin at the cross being Justified over and over. We are to get on with caring, loving, helping people around us in our corner of the world.

    Salvation is not just about going to church and then heaven. It is about being the kingdom right now, here on earth.


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    Dee, what is wrong with these people? (Wilson followers?) They are basically telling a large minority in America, who are humans created in the image of God, that their desire to be treated equal in the civil realm is sinful??? What??????


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    @ Robin:

    Robin, I was well aware of Wilson’s warped opinions on slavery in America prior to reading Bryan Crawford Lortiss’ essay.

    But now reading Bryan’s essay, my anger and grief over Wilson’s twisted theology comes roaring back.

    Really, there are no words … but Bryan has expressed them as well as possible.


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    Doug Wilson is another name in the long line of self-described ‘Christians’ who have driven more people to atheism and agnosticism than Hitchens or Dawkins could ever have hoped to. What a sick mind.


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    @ Anon 1

    The verse mentions conception and childbirth in the immediate context of “desire” and the same hebrew word (Teshuwqah) is used in

    Song of Solomon 7:10 I [am] my beloved’s, and his desire [is] toward me.

    Based on those immediate and broader biblical contextual clues, I think the Genesis 3:16 “desire” must include at least have a component of sexual desire. But I could be wrong. I also like Bushnell’s take on it as a turning. At the lexicon link you can see that the root word in teshuwqah means “stretching out after”. Bushnell points out that only Adam (the one taken from the ground) was commanded to leave the garden. Appears that the woman chose to follow her husband instead of staying in the Garden with God.


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    Rafiki, as I read more and more from the Calvinistas, I keep thinking that they do nothing but go places the scriptures do not go.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Actually, no, it’s the opposite with many women.
    The Bible was saying in Genesis that women would desire their husbands, as in, many women would look to a husband to play a “Savior” role and to meet all her needs, and to provide for and protect her, instead of looking to God for guidance/ protection/ provision/ salvation.

    Wendy Alsup does an excellent job deconstructing poor complementarian exegesis (or eisegesis) of this text. And she considers herself complementarian.

    See: A (Somewhat) Scholarly Analysis of Genesis 3:16


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    dee wrote:

    JeffT
    I understand what you are saying but I am not sure I buy that the curse is related to childbirth.  I believe that the curse in Genesis was aimed at all men and women and that it goes way beyond childbirth.

    Increased conception is no “curse”.

    As Hannah noted in the 3rd comment, the text does not refer to any curse upon the man or the woman. Only the ground and the serpent are “cursed”

    This is from Don Johnson:

    QUOTE: There are 5 things told the woman and it turns out that not all of them are bad. Some translations scramble things but look at an interlinear.

    For example, an increase in conception is not bad, this is good.

    Teshuqah is derived from the idea of a stream running to the sea, the water “desires” to flow downward to the sea. We see that this “desire” of water is part of God’s plan of Creation. So we should not think of it as negative a priori. SOS uses it in the good way, Gen 4 uses it in a bad way. What are we to make of its use in Gen 3?

    After just being told that she will have kids with pain, she is told she will “want to flow towards” her husband. ENDQUOTE

    Desire for one’s husband need not be taken as a “curse”. It could be a redemptive consolation from God post broken Garden intimacy with Him.


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    @ Anon 1:
    Yes, I completely agree with you and Dee.

    I see “power over” as the central deconstruct of the Fall. My hackles go up whenever I hear/feel/desire in any human relationship: “authority”, “rule”, “dominion”, “manipulate”.

    I’d also like to get rid of “submission”, “servanthood” and “slaves for Christ” because they maintain giving to each other from that same fallen position of greater/lesser. The most healing generosity and self-sacrifice emerges, not when we come from a lesser position, or when we “lower ourselves” to a lesser position, but when we stand as peers under God, loving each other as much as we do ourselves.


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    @ dee:
    dee wrote:

    The reason I have had trouble with the childbirth curse is that science/medicine can find ways to overcome the problems. So, the curse would only be in effect until good medicine came on the scene?

    Again, increased conception is not a “curse”. It was a redemptive consequence.

    The first couple were no longer immortal. Increased desire and increased conception served to propogate humanity.


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    @ WenatcheeTheHatchet:

    Laughing hysterically at this first thing this morning. Great way to start a Friday morning. Thanks WTH.


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    @ Charis:

    But the word is not “desire”. It changes the whole meaning to use “desire” and that has been the big problem for over 1000 years. We have it ingrained.


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    @ Charis:
    Charis, the passage is about God meeting with Adam and Eve after the fall and saying, “Ok, this is what has broken because you wanted to be like Me.” It addresses the consequences on earth and animals, on the relationship of earth/animals to humans, on the female and on the male. Call it curse or not, it’s a tightly organized passage about brokenness.

    Therefore, “increased conception” that might be implied in the passage needs to seen as the direct result of the entrance of death. Death would require more humans for continuance, yes? It’s terribly sad and it’s what was required.

    Also, you cannot, without messing up the intent of the passage, try to make “flowing towards her husband” a healthy relational construct. The relationships in Eden were a perfect harmony of intimacy. Nothing needed to be added. The Fall broke those relationships into places of power and distress. The female has to keep an eye on the more powerful males even while they are also her closest earth-bound relationship and the way for children to be brought. Grief! Sadness!


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    1. The “hotness of Eve” thing is just stupid. ‘Nuff said.

    2. I suppose I’m like one of the commenters above who said they have no idea what it means except that the “desire to usurp/rule over” interpretation seems way off. Didn’t even a complementarian female blogger call this interpretation out as an innovation (dating from around the 70s/80s) a few months back? Might have been Wendy Alsup?

    Overall, on a “dumb layman” surface-level reading, I don’t see much patriarchy predating the Fall in Genesis. The only comp argument that gives me any pause is the Adam-names-Eve thing, but even that always seemed kinda shaky.


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    Teshuqah is derived from the idea of a stream running to the sea, the water “desires” to flow downward to the sea. We see that this “desire” of water is part of God’s plan of Creation. So we should not think of it as negative a priori. SOS uses it in the good way, Gen 4 uses it in a bad way. What are we to make of its use in Gen 3?

    After just being told that she will have kids with pain, she is told she will “want to flow towards” her husband. ENDQUOTE

    I agree the idiom is about water. It is about water running “to and fro” which lends to “turning” as in turning from God to Adam.

    The pain is not redemptive. Giving birth to Messiah is, however. And that was the implication in that passage.

    Desire…the whole sexual position on this gets us away from the real message of Messiah and redemption and makes it man focused, once again.


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    Charis wrote:
    <blockquote
    Again, increased conception is not a “curse”. It was a redemptive consequence.

    The first couple were no longer immortal. Increased desire and increased conception served to propogate humanity.

    With all due respect, I totally disagree. I find nothing redemptive or positive in the consequences of Adam and Eve leaving the garden. They are all negative consequences.


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    Daisy, thanks for posting those links. I read them both and they were very interesting, and sadly resonant in some ways, although I think it probably a sweeping generalisation that *all* men who prefer the rounder figure are sexist. However I think it possible that men who go on about it all the time are probably a bit obsessed, to put it mildly.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    I agree the idiom is about water. It is about water running “to and fro” which lends to “turning” as in turning from God to Adam.

    The pain is not redemptive. Giving birth to Messiah is, however. And that was the implication in that passage.

    Desire…the whole sexual position on this gets us away from the real message of Messiah and redemption and makes it man focused, once again.

    Agreed!

    And the word translated “pain” for Eve is the same translated “toil” for Adam. However we choose to translate it, it’s similar for both. The best interpretation imo is sorrow.

    From H6087; worrisomeness, that is, labor or pain: – sorrow, toil.


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    I believe that just as Adam was given weeds and thorns to fight against the cursed ground for food, that male domineering would be Eve’s weeds and thorns to fight against for.. Male rulership over female was prophetic, not a command, it was a result of Eve desiring Adam for her salvation. Us women give up our ‘birthright’ all the time for a mess of porridge, and I think that displeases God.

    Taking into consideration though how God rejected Cain’s sacrifice because he conquered the weeds and thorns and offered the fruit of his own labor, our conquering male domination will not be accepted as a sacrifice either, we must simply stand firm in our rightful calling as equal servants beside our men. The complementarians that I know just don’t seem to be able to grasp that us egalitarians are NOT trying to ‘usurp’ anything.

    Again I ask, can a complementarian give me one single verse that commands men to lead their women. Peleeeze?


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    Here is something to keep in mind when reading the OT a lot of which is Hebrew Poetry and as we all know, you cannot put poetry into a computer program and get a declarative meaning. And within that are all sorts of idioms, etc so we must look to the larger meaning and not get too caught up. That is why “desire” just had me stumped for years until I did a lot of research. Turning makes the entire meaning come alive for thousands of years!

    Concerning Genesis:

    But, the Hebrews did not think in step logic but in block logic. This is the grouping together of similar ideas together and not in chronological order. Most people read Genesis chapter one from a step logic perspective or chronological, rather than from the block logic so prevalent in Hebrew poetry.

    So, when we go down the “desire” path making it sexual in nature, we miss the larger meaning!


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    Confusion abounds when it comes to this topic. Maybe it’s because scripture never gives us clear examples on how this is to be lived out – in practical terms. Maybe it’s attitude more than anything, such that a family in one culture might look differently than another, but the attitude would be the same.

    We also find this in other areas of scripture when an attitude is addressed, but the issue also has cultural implications.

    The most mysterious passage for me is that the man is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.

    I don’t think that I will fully understand the meaning of that passage here on this earth, let alone what that is supposed to look like.

    The one thing I have concluded is that the condition exists. Paul doesn’t say to men “be the head of your wife.” He says that they are. So I guess the state exists whether I recognize it or not.

    Anyway, I am not surprised that you are confused.

    I don’t think that I will go and listen to this sermon, however.


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    First, remember your sisters’ curse. In the garden, God placed a curse on Eve’s calling: “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you” (Gen. 3:16).

    This verse was quoted and recited against the use of painkillers on women in labor. It wasn’t until Queen Victoria ordered painkillers during her giving birth (and publicized it in the British media) that the Guardians of Biblical Morality finally relented.

    This can change one’s understanding of the text. For example, the use of ‘toil’ instead might not insinuate God is making childbirth painful. Maybe bringing children into this life and raising them up will all be difficult compared to what it was like in Eden. It is just another example of all parts of life being harder because of the original sin.

    Don’t forget the sorrow over the fact that every womb empties into a grave eventually.

    These relationships are at the heart of the woman’s work in the home. Women today still struggle with the desire to usurp their husband’s leadership.

    More accurate to say that man-and-woman became Power Struggle instead of One Flesh. (And the comps are only concerned with making sure THEY win the Power Struggle — better to wear the boots doing the face-stamping than be the face getting stamped on.)


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    The “hotness” of Eve is so silly. I have never heard a pastor talk about that but I do wonder if the ones that have took into consideration that before the “hot” Eve came on the scene, Adam spent his time looking at cows, giraffes, buffalo, lions, etc, to name them.

    After that experience, I am sure any sort of “Eve” was hot! :o)


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    Robin wrote:

    Dee, what is wrong with these people? (Wilson followers?) They are basically telling a large minority in America, who are humans created in the image of God, that their desire to be treated equal in the civil realm is sinful??? What??????

    Are you talking about women or blacks?

    Because Wilson is also well-known for Scriptural(TM) defense of a certain Peculiar Institution regarding certain Animate Property.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    The “hotness” of Eve is so silly. I have never heard a pastor talk about that

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Hawtness of Eve” idea (doctrine?) turned out to be a preacher’s sexual kink projection and/or another example of Porn for the Pious.


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    “Don’t forget the sorrow over the fact that every womb empties into a grave eventually.”

    Exactly HUG. We miss the consequences of sin was DEATH. That is why I have started to call original sin, original death. After the fall Women would give birth to a human who was physically dying even though they lived pretty long for a while back then. Except for the coming Birth of Messiah! Hard to wrap our heads around because we cannot comprehend what it would be like to understand any sort of life without the coming physical death.

    Thanks to our precious Savior we now have eternal life.


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    The stupidist thing the YRR movement has done is promote Wilson as an intellectual. It will come back to haunt them eventually as more people check him out and his writings, conferences from not to far back. He was considered fringe only a few years ago.

    To me, it was a natural progression of who the YRR really are. Especially Piper.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    I think we should consume some gospel chocolate, with our gospelly appetite, and then gospelfully proclaim how a great and loving God has provided both the gospel and the chocolate.


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    Rafiki wrote:

    As another poster pointed out, isn’t the partaking of Communion supposed to be the most important part of the week?!

    It is at Mass.


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    Trina wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Sadly, the post at 9 Marks was written by a woman.@ Debra Baker:

    Not just any woman…an Elder’s wife. Bari is married to Andrew who was an elder at the time I was a member there. She has the special privilege of being able to tell women what to think because of her husband’s position in the church and also because she is married…in that order.

    Two words: QUEEN BEE.


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    @ dee:

    The historic solution to this was to put the money and other assets into the name of the female child or jointly with the parent. That way it was not inherited but already owned, just as the Lady had owned what she had before her marriage.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I do not know why some Christian males are so obsessed with female physical appearance and Eve’s in particular.

    Years ago, a friend told me about how in his reading he had come across Goddess cults in history which were all-male and Male Supremacist to the level of the Taliban. The rationale behind this seemed to be a Cosmic version of Perfect Porn Star Syndrome — the Goddess embodied PERFECT femininity, compared to which RL mortal women were rancid piles of dung (and should be treated as such). The Perfect Porn Star as a religion.

    I wonder if the Hawtness of Eve is a Christian-compatible version of this Goddess Cult dynamic, much like Divine Right of Kings was a Christian-compatible version of the God-King.


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    Bridget wrote:

    More like that’s what MEN have on their minds concerning how well women will be able to serve men. All those issues could be limiting you know! Best get the little ladies healthy so they can serve the men!

    “Serve” or “Service”?

    (Like Carolyn Mahaney servicing The Humble One while puking her guts from morning sickness…)


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    Charis, Just to think this through, I think there are some assumptions read in that need not be.

    Yes, increased conception was needed because humans now die and eventually Messiah would come through woman. Eve even thought it might be her who gives birth to the One Who would crush his head.

    But there is an assumption that Eve had to be forced to “sexually desire” Adam when it is obvious she was turning to him anyway! She did meekly follow him out of the garden. And that was NOT a good thing for her and all woman thereafter. She banked on Adam for everything instead of her relationship with God.

    The passage is descriptive not prescriptive.

    None of that means there was no sexual desire between them. Good heavens we see sexual desire was defintely not a problem soon after from others besides Adam and Eve!


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    The “hotness” of Eve is so silly.

    No kidding! I swear some of these guys are preaching from their Johnson, like Driscoll and his “Bible as Kama Sutra” theology.


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    @ Deb:
    Given her heroes include Grudem and Piper, I think FAB is not a place I will ever go again.


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    @ Patrice: Increased conception also = increased possibility of mother dying in childbirth.


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    56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC wrote:

    I think we should consume some gospel chocolate, with our gospelly appetite, and then gospelfully proclaim how a great and loving God has provided both the gospel and the chocolate.

    Good call. Perhaps we should also make “chocolate” a verb. As in, if you see any visitors in the meeting, go over and chocolate them.


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    @ Victorious:

    In the past, there was a thread in black christianity of weeping at the birth of a child who would suffer through life and being joyful at death for it was the release from the toils and sufferings of life.


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    @ Hester: Trying to make a story into some kind of crazy doctrines… I mean, there is a talking animal as well.

    From what I’ve been reading, there were Mesopotamian “talking animal” stories from roughly the same time period.

    There was also the Enuma Elish, the Mesopotamian account of creation, which is – among other things – exceedingly violent.

    My current understanding of the creation accounts in Genesis is that they were, in large part, a response to the Enuma Elish and similar Mesopotamian accounts of the earliest days of the human race.

    When we read a much later conception of Satan (one that Judaism does not share) into/onto the serpent, we’re (probably) missing the point.

    OK, I realize that this comment is not going to sit well with some readers, but I’m trying to better understand the whole literary aspects of these accounts in a cultural context – in other words, why would what’s in Gene. 1-3 be so different than what was produced by other cultures in the same region?

    What, overall, does Gen. 1-3 say about God?

    I just can’t imagine that the things that the crazier comps think is there is there, in any way, shape or form.

    Not seeing the different literary genres in the Bible for what they are has caused endless confusion and strife over many, many centuries.


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    @ Anonymous:
    Head means source. Man (Adam) was the source of woman (Eve), via the allegorical rib.


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    @ numo: If these folks (crazier comps) were at all consistent, they would take that little geography/social studies passage (about rivers and where certain commodities come from) in the 1st creation account literally; they would take ancient Near Eastern cosmology literally (the sky is a dome which keeps the waters of chaos that are above the earth from destroying it); they would take all the stories about “So-and-so was the first to create musical instruments” (etc. etc. etc.) literally… and so on.

    But they don’t.

    There is NO logic to their approach.


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    JeffT wrote:

    Doug Wilson is another name in the long line of self-described ‘Christians’ who have driven more people to atheism and agnosticism than Hitchens or Dawkins could ever have hoped to. What a sick mind.

    Jeff – I fear you’re not only right, but that there’s a toxic corollary to what you say. Namely that more often than not it’s the decent, honest, thinking people who are driven to athnosticism (new word – any takers? It could go with “deleterate”) because “gospel” people parade an indecent, dishonest bigotry. And at the same time, high-profile churches become increasingly filled with people who are either gullibly cruel and ambitious, or easily preyed upon.


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    @ numo: Sorry, 2nd creation account (Gen 2: 10-14).


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    I am going to be addressing this today now that I am finished with getting my mom’s taxes done.@ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:


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    JeffT wrote:

    No kidding! I swear some of these guys are preaching from their Johnson, like Driscoll and his “Bible as Kama Sutra” theology.

    Don’t forget Schaapf the Shaft-Polisher. Talk about “blatant”…


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    Dave A A wrote:

    As to the “pain in childbearing”, a young elder-in-training was husband to a midwife. He advised a first-time father-to-be to not feel/express too much sympathy for his laboring wife (with no anesthetic) because the pain would help her bond with the baby better.

    Note this advice came from a MALE. Since when did HE ever have to go into labor or give birth? Glib advice ALWAYS comes from those who never experienced it and never will.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    No believer, male or female, is authorised to plant, penetrate and conquer others, no matter how much they may present this as an attempt to gospel them with the gospel gospel.

    So “gospel” has become the new “smurf” or “Marclar”?


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    The most mysterious passage for me is that the man is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.

    I don’t think that I will fully understand the meaning of that passage here on this earth, let alone what that is supposed to look like.

    The one thing I have concluded is that the condition exists. Paul doesn’t say to men “be the head of your wife.” He says that they are. So I guess the state exists whether I recognize it or not”

    Sheesh! I hate being a comment hog but this one is so badly intrepreted. And one reason is we take a passage and apply to our day and time. What is the historical context? How did the 1st Century believer understand the word “kephale”? That will help you really understand where it comes from. The typical 1st Century person thought the heart was where thinking/decisions came from. Not the brain. It was not until about 100 years later they started to see the brain controlled our thinking and movements. They saw the “head” as the place that supplied the body/life. Breathing, eating, seeing, talking, hearing etc.

    You did not exactly have 1st Century women running out to college to earn a living and be independent. They were totally dependent on men unless they were of the Greek or Roman higher classes. Most marriages were arranged and were basically about having sons not being in love. They were not really relational. Women would even live in a different part of the house with the small children.

    The husband was to supply his wife’s needs for life and Paul is INCLUDING love which was not really thought of as necessary for marriage in that time. Just as Christ supplies the spiritual needs for the Body.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    I’m pretty sure “both.” Serve would include service.


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    Sorry, too busy running hither & thither usurping all the men I know to participate in this conversation. Back when they’re all thoroughly usurped.


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    @ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:

    I checked out her site and discovered her heroes as well. No surprise there.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Note this advice came from a MALE. Since when did HE ever have to go into labor or give birth? Glib advice ALWAYS comes from those who never experienced it and never will.”

    Just wait until he has to pass kidney stones!


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    Beakerj wrote:

    Sorry, too busy running hither & thither usurping all the men I know to participate in this conversation. Back when they’re all thoroughly usurped.

    Hee Hee. Love it.


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    Anybody up for a Usurping Women 2013 Conference?


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    Sergius Martin-George wrote:

    Anybody up for a Usurping Women 2013 Conference

    Can we usurp you to have one? Usurpers have to have a usurpee.


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    A “usurpee?” Is that anything like a Slurpee?

    SMG


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    The “usurpee” is the person being usurped which, officially, can only be a male. Females cannot usurp other females (except in the corporate world where Piper has no experience and would simply call that a cat fight)

    We could make the slurpee our offical drink. Except I always get that frozen headache thing.


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    got it. I would gladly put my name forward for Titular Usurpee. Hmmmm, wonder what Piper would call that?


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    How does the church “help” Christ?


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    @ numo:
    Yah, death via birth, death from birth: the nastiest symbol of human/earth brokenness.


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    @ dee:

    When Eve was created, God did not command Adam to rule over her and watch her like a hawk. From my perspective, she was a free agent and had full moral agency

    And don’t forget, Eve was total smoking hot sexiness. That is the entire crux of the Creation and fall account, Eve’s physical appearance. *rolls eyes*

    It’s not that I’ve heard Eve’s appearance talked about tons and tons over the years, I hope I didn’t give that impression, but I’ve watched lots of Christian television programming, and every once in awhile, it has been mentioned. (I’ve also seen it brought up in a book or two by male Christian authors.)


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    dee wrote:

    The risks of pregnancy decline in countries which have excellent medical care and followup. Child birth is not so difficult when pain management is employed. The reason I have had trouble with the childbirth curse is that science/medicine can find ways to overcome the problems. So, the curse would only be in effect until good medicine came on the scene?

    Well also, if you’re a female who’s never had sex or had a baby (like me), it would make the Fall of no import. I guess I didn’t need a Savior to redeem me.


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    @ Deb:

    I saw that post too Dee and I immediately thought about Wartburg Watch. You’re making waves!


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    And if it is directed at WW, you’re being compared to Satan.


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    There is a book in the old testament that talks about women’s empowerment. It says something to the affect that women can do anything. That is Proverbs 31.
    Her husband is sitting at the gates.
    Is there anyone who has a more thorough understanding of this chapter?


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    Scooter’s Mom wrote:

    Another question, why does this crowd insist on putting a divide between the sexes? What sinful pride they must have to want to look at another creation of God, being woman, as beneath them.

    It looks like what Jesus tried to un-do, the gender complementarians are trying to put back into place.

    Based on reading I’ve done over the years, I learned that women were treated like 2nd class citizens in Jesus’ day, even in some regards in Judaism. Women were physically separated at religious services, readings, etc.

    That is why it was so scandalous and confusing for the twelve when they saw Jesus speaking personally and sometimes alone with females.

    Men, (and I guess rabbis in particular back then), weren’t supposed to show equality to and such respect to females, to teach them, take them seriously.

    But Jesus did all that. He elevated their status, but some aspects of Christianity today want to kick women right back down, and in to the same limited roles they lived by pre-Jesus.

    In Jesus’ day, people kind of had to go through a male priesthood to access God, and Jesus did away with that too, but some gender complementarians teach that a female believer today must go through a male (usually her husband if she is married, but some stretch this to include pastors, brothers, whomever) to have a relationship with God.

    Gender complementarians are trying to re-establish some of the very things Jesus came to destroy or correct.


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    This is John Piper’s advance man:
    John is too busy fighting men who jump out at women from behind bushes to deal with this issue. He is also concerned that Angelina Jolie is looking a little too muscular these days. So much to do, so little time…. @ Sergius Martin-George:


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    i fully attend to address that. It is written by a sweet young thing who loooooves her church. Yep-me and Satan…. all in a day’s work. @ Caleb W:


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    @ Deb:

    I skimmed over that page. It was kind of odd.

    Over and over the author pleaded with (Christian) women to stop criticizing the bride (church).

    But the New Testament supports Christians examining and critiquing other Christians, or teachings being presented as Christian, e.g., 1 Corinthians 5:11-12

    But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

    What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

    Jesus Christ chews out the bride here:

    So, because you are lukewarm–neither hot nor cold–I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

    You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
    (Rev 3:16,17)


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    @ EMSoliDeoGloria:

    What an interesting page (“An Analysis of Genesis 3:16“). Thank you for sharing the link. I’ve so far only read the first little part of it (and will read the rest).

    One thing that has already jumped out at me thus far on that page, is the person who wrote it mentions that some of the newer interpretations from Genesis of male-female roles/ relations that arose in the mid 1970s by some Christians was a reaction to secular feminism of the period.

    Now, I find that oh so fascinating, because what straw man do many gender complementarians often raise but that biblical gender egalitarianism (or any interpretation or Scriptural understanding that does not accept complementarianism) is a by-product of allowing secular feminism to color, or influence, one’s reading of the Bible.

    But it is sometimes the gender complmentarians who do this very thing, they allow culture to influence their understanding of the Bible’s passages about women and marriage. 🙂


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    Patrice wrote:

    Therefore, “increased conception” that might be implied in the passage needs to seen as the direct result of the entrance of death. Death would require more humans for continuance, yes? It’s terribly sad and it’s what was required.

    I’m also uncomfortable with undue emphasis being placed on pro-creation/ marriage.

    Some of us Christianladies never marry and/or have children.

    Christ taught that His kingdom would be increased through spiritual children (preaching the gospel to the un-converted), not through believers marrying and making babies.

    Your brothers and sisters in Christ are to take on the same priority as your flesh and blood family. (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26, John 19:26, Matt 12:46 – 50)

    ANE (ancient near east) culture placed lots of emphasis on family lines, making babies, carrying on the family name, and women back then were left destitute or had to go into prostitution for financial support if they weren’t married or had no sons to care for them.

    Christ changed all that. The Church was instructed to provide for widowed Christians, etc.


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    Daisy wrote:

    @ EMSoliDeoGloria:

    One thing that has already jumped out at me thus far on that page, is the person who wrote it mentions that some of the newer interpretations from Genesis of male-female roles/ relations that arose in the mid 1970s by some Christians was a reaction to secular feminism of the period.

    Now, I find that oh so fascinating, because what straw man do many gender complementarians often raise but that biblical gender egalitarianism (or any interpretation or Scriptural understanding that does not accept complementarianism) is a by-product of allowing secular feminism to color, or influence, one’s reading of the Bible.

    Complementarianism was invented in the 70s and is a overreaction to modern feminism. They will try to say the opposite: that egalitarianism was invented by feminists and comp view has been around for a long long time, but that is untrue. It is a lie. Women have been officially preaching and ministering in some denominations for hundreds of years. It is not some new, modern idea. Feminism is just a scapegoat they like to use to scare people into their way of thinking.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (Like Carolyn Mahaney servicing The Humble One while puking her guts from morning sickness…)

    Didn’t Mark Driscoll advise Christian wives that even when they are sick or menstruating (often the same thing for a lot of women, btw), that they should still perform sexually? He advised and recommended different sexual acts.

    That this man thinks he cannot live for more than 3 – 10 days without sex repels me so much.

    I was holding out for marriage to have sex, but, as I’ve told you before, I’m still waiting at 40+. Anyone who acts as though they can’t endure or hold on without sex for 3- 10 days as he does gets no sympathy or respect from me.

    I know I use Driscoll a lot as an example, but it’s not just him. I’ve seen other male Christian pastors with the same attitude.

    They are very reluctant to concede limits on sexual activity for any reason at all at any time for any time, even if their wife just got an arm bit off by a shark, is bleeding to death, is in the middle of a heart attack, and has cancer.


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    Deb wrote:

    Sista Dee,

    Is this article featured in the “Right Now” section over at The Gospel Coalition a response to your post?

    http://www.fabsharford.com/a-painful-plea-to-women-of-the-church/

    She seems like a young and idealistic woman who has her heart in the right place (sort of), but life experience hasn’t cleared up her thinking yet.

    It sounds like she’s saying: Of course there will be abuse and injustice in the Church because, like, DUH, the Church is made up of sinners. you don’t have the right to say anything about her sin because youre no better than she is.

    Except the sins we’re calling out here and on other blogs are those committed UNDER COLOR OF AUTHORITY. For the purpose of CYA and MONEY!!! So sorry for the caps but these YRR apologists are just so hacking me off right now.

    Many of us have spent DECADES desperately trying to pick up, dust off, and love on the Bride (at least the local version of her that we have). We have been spat upon and kicked in the shins for our trouble, and told to get back in line or she’d take a switch to our hind ends. What more can we do?


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    @ Daisy:
    Daisy: I agree. That (western) women have obtained general free agency is a great re-storation, a re-forming back to God’s original intentions. To think that it is the sinful result of secularized culture is to be upside down and backwards. In fact, I’d like to hang upside down and backwards (for a day or two) any who insist otherwise, every time they say so. hah

    Back in early days, kids were needed. Now we’re far beyond “filling the earth”. If I was say, pope(ss) of US Christianity, I’d tell women to stop with the birthing already and adopt. Very self-centered, in my opinion, to think you must have little “yous” running around all over when there are already so many hungry and/or untended children.

    But there are any number who disagree with me. Inconceivable! 🙂


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    @ dee:

    I would guess that Piper would not approve of, or be comfortable with, any of the following:

    Sure I’ll Wear a Tiara!

    Wonder Woman (directed by Jesse V. Johnson)

    The Powerpuff Girls

    See also:

    -Buffy the Vampire Slayer
    -Michonne (from The Walking Dead: katana-wielding woman who kills zombies and defends men, women, and children)
    -River Tam
    -Cat Woman
    -Bat Girl

    From the Bible, women who led men and/or who showed courage:

    -Deborah
    -Jael
    -Abigail
    -Rahab
    -Ruth
    -Hadassah (aka Esther)
    -Mary Magdalene (who was among the first to go to the empty tomb; did not leave Christ at the cross, unlike all the males, except John)


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    Just an aside–the advice to “just adopt” is not realistic. Many of those needy/untended children will never be legally free for adoption. That really stings when infertile couples are told “just adopt.” Often they have been trying for years and years and no available child has been offered them.

    As to male leadership: ok, assuming the guys are to lead (big assumption but let’s grant it for a moment) they need to remember they are to lead, not be drovers.

    Jesus led with the basin and towel. I suggest the next man wanting to lead his family be the first to jump up to change a poopy diaper, to wipe up the throw up from the toddler, and to clean the new puppy’s boo boos on the carpet.

    Lead, fellas, and then maybe we uppity women will listen.


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    @ Daisy:
    “They are very reluctant to concede limits on sexual activity for any reason at all at any time for any time…” I wonder if part of it is because they don’t see the difference between attraction and lust. If they think they are lusting all the time (when they’re actually just wandering around in admiration-response), the sin quotient might become unbearable.

    Put it together with the old Am male assumption that ownership is everything (or at least 9/10ths of the law), and one can see why they might assume that the only way to resolve it is to “get the woman” and plowplowplow.

    Poor guys, reducing themselves to a blend of cro-magnon and medieval peasant. But God loves them too. Just don’t let them lead anything. lol


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    @ Daisy:

    “Based on reading I’ve done over the years, I learned that women were treated like 2nd class citizens in Jesus’ day, even in some regards in Judaism. Women were physically separated at religious services, readings, etc. … But Jesus did all that. He elevated their status, but some aspects of Christianity today want to kick women right back down, and in to the same limited roles they lived by pre-Jesus.”

    Heck, I’ve seen some really hardline comps/patriarchs say that since the women sat separately from the men in Judaism, then they must have sat separately from them in early Christian services; therefore since the epistles were addressed to the “brethren,” they must have been read in the men’s section and therefore the epistles were written only to the men – or something closely along those lines. What this does, I think, in their minds, is get rid of the apparent contradiction with women talking in church…? I read the article a really long time ago.

    An article linked to that one told a story about a woman who complained that the male leadership wasn’t listening to her because she was a woman, and their response was basically, “Sorry, honey, but according to the Bible we don’t have to.”


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    Here’s a correction on my Power Puff girls link:

    Power Puff Girls

    They’re little girls who attend kingergarten and fight crime and bad guys in their spare time.


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    Hester wrote:

    An article linked to that one told a story about a woman who complained that the male leadership wasn’t listening to her because she was a woman, and their response was basically, “Sorry, honey, but according to the Bible we don’t have to.”

    And that is totally contradictory in spirit and attitude toward what the Bible teaches. You’re supposed to show respect to every one.

    If Christ taught that a little child can, or is, the most valued member of the kingdom, you would think that would clue those people into the fact that Jesus would not be okay with them thinking the Bible teaches they ‘don’t have to listen to a woman.’

    As to your comments about some of them mentioning Jewish women sitting separately during religious ceremonies 2,000 years ago… they should not be holding that up as something for Christians to emulate,if they were.

    In Paul’s day, some of the early Jewish believers were telling Gentile believers in Jesus they had to get circumcised to be accepted by Christ, and Paul had to correct that misperception right away.

    That goes to show that not all customs or attitudes among ancient Jews were accepted by God, and should not be put into practice by Christians today, or defended by them.


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    @ linda:
    “”Just adopt” is not realistic.” I’d heard that, but didn’t know it was so. How sad! So the babes end up in overseas orphanages or our foster-care system. There is a huge bunch of foster kids available, in various stages of dishabille and damage. Ach!

    Yea, Christian leadership is service. Part of any seminary training should be scrubbing pots/pans, toilets, floors, and poop-scooping. And working as an aide in a nursing home for a full year. And being ordained should include a vow to continue said activities throughout their church service tenure. W00t!


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    @ Anon 1:
    I have passed stones twice. One at 60 yo, with two African (not AA) pastors in my home, who began praying for me, one in English and the other in his native tongue. More painful than a broken bone or displaced joint, closer to surgery w/o anesthesia. The second occurred six months later while I was driving cross country and actually completed the passing in the men’s room while stopped for breakfast.


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    Daisy wrote:

    One thing that has already jumped out at me thus far on that page, is the person who wrote it mentions that some of the newer interpretations from Genesis of male-female roles/ relations that arose in the mid 1970s by some Christians was a reaction to secular feminism of the period.

    Bingo! A contributor to the “biblical” interpretations was McKnights book in 1977 which became popular in seminaries of the time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Knight_III

    It was a cultural response to the times. The 60’s brought even more financial emancipation. Some folks don’t realize that widows often could not even draw out money from the bank after thier husbands died until the will was dealt with UNLESS the husband had made provisions beforehand. This used to make my dad insanely angry. He was often called upon to help some of these women in the church untangle messes their husbands left because the wife had no financial power or understanding. He would always tell us to never be in that position. Ever.

    Let them vote. But when they start getting educated, handling their own money, taking our jobs and deciding to marry later, then we have to do something!


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    @ Sergius Martin-George:
    Organizational or conference/sermon titles:
    United Usurpers
    Surviving life with a Usurper
    Usurpation: Victim or Victimization


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    Jenny wrote:

    It sounds like she’s saying: Of course there will be abuse and injustice in the Church because, like, DUH, the Church is made up of sinners. you don’t have the right to say anything about her sin because youre no better than she is.

    this is the “all sin is equal” doctrine. Here is how it works:

    Since you are a sinner, so you cannot say anything about my sin. But I say you cannot say anything about me saying anything about your sin because that is a sin.

    See how that works?

    Sure, I EXPECT to go to church and be abused and injustice heaped upon me. Hmmm. I think I will stay home instead. What a marketing campaign for Christians! Safer to stay home.


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    56, Your stone experiences almost moved me to tears. What pain in a car, no less! Wanna talk labor? (just kidding, Dee!)


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    Patrice wrote:

    If I was say, pope(ss) of US Christianity, I’d tell women to stop with the birthing already and adopt. Very self-centered, in my opinion, to think you must have little “yous” running around all over when there are already so many hungry and/or untended children.

    There’s that, and I mentioned on an old thread how some Christians -and not just the way far-out, weirdo Patriarchy sort of guys- are dismayed that non-whites/ non-Christians are having so many kids.

    So they believe that Christians should get married real young (age 18 to early 20s) and have lots of kids.

    Christian television host Pat Robertson, who has a daily show, interviewed some guy who wrote a book about declining American birth rates a couple weeks ago.

    Robertson later said something like for Christians or Americans to win or head off disaster, or make America godly (I forget exactly how he put it), that they should “out breed” their adversaries/ opponents/ Muslims.

    (I am not left wing, but this left wing site documented Robertson’s comments:
    If You Can’t Beat ‘Em, Outbreed ‘Em
    -though I think their page is discussing a different episode than the one I saw.)

    There are more and more blogs and books being written and released advocating for Christians to marry before age 25 and have a lot of kids.

    I’ve seen Al Mohler, (SBC head), advocate for this position, and he and some other Christians have been saying the last few years that remaining single is a sin.

    This stuff really stands out to me because I have never married(*) or had children and was an earnest Christian from a young age.

    So I really notice when Christians act as though marriage and parenting is the norm for all Christians, or as if person’s only value in life is marrying/ having kids, or any denigrating views about singleness are expressed.

    *(Though I did want to marry. I expected to be. I never expected to still be single at 40+)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    So “gospel” has become the new “smurf” or “Marclar”?

    In a limited manner of speaking, it seems that it already has. It’s used as a catch-all synonym for “validly christian”. I’d just like to see it recognised as a noun, an adjective and both a transitive and an intransitive verb.

    (Meanwhile, back at the ranch…)


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    dee wrote:

    i fully attend to address that. It is written by a sweet young thing who loooooves her church. Yep-me and Satan…. all in a day’s work. @ Caleb W:

    She must never have heard a sermon. Reformed/Calvinsta evangelical pastors are always criticizing other evangelicals in their sermons.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Was Jael in the Old Testament being all gentle and quiet when she drove a pent stake through the head of a napping Israeli enemy?

    As I understand it this was OK for her to do, but had she been a black belt in karate then she should have stepped back and let the man do it.

    Am I getting the hang of this complementarian thing?


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    I have every single episode of The Powerpuff Girls. 🙂


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    @ Anon 1:

    Looks like Knight and Ware are two peas in a pod 🙂


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    Jeff S wrote:

    How does the church “help” Christ?

    That’s easy, Jeff – we help Christ badly.


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    linda wrote:

    Just an aside–the advice to “just adopt” is not realistic. Many of those needy/untended children will never be legally free for adoption. That really stings when infertile couples are told “just adopt.” Often they have been trying for years and years and no available child has been offered them.

    Does that apply to older and / or non-white children, or children with physical / psychological issues?

    I’ve often read that many Americans who seek adoption quite often insist on adopting an infant/ baby and/or caucasian, and/or one that has no health / emotional problems.

    I remember an episode of Christian show 700 Club where Robertson actually told people watching to not adopt certain kinds of kids because those kids may have all sorts of hangups.

    Pat Robertson’s Advice: Don’t Adopt Children (video)

    (I did not choose this headline, this was composed by them):
    Old Monster Pat Robertson Warns People Against Adopting Children


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    “There’s that, and I mentioned on an old thread how some Christians -and not just the way far-out, weirdo Patriarchy sort of guys- are dismayed that non-whites/ non-Christians are having so many kids.”

    That is not the case here at all with the Patriarchs. They are really pushing international adoptions like crazy which I think is great if one can afford it. It really is all the rage here. Several non profits have sprung up to raise funds for it. Russ Moore is a big reason why this is so popular now. What most folks do not understand that even with his well paid position as Dean, book royalties speaking gigs, etc and double dipping as a pastor…..STILL a donor of SBTS walked into his office and gave him 10,000 to get his kids from Russia.

    It is good to be a cult of personality figure in Christendom, is it not?

    On another note, some aquaintances of mine recently had a baby born dead. Their patriarchal church which is part of Acts 29 immediately started promoting international adoption to them. I thought that was a bit inappropriate so soon to suggest that.


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    Standing ovation.@ Richard:


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    this is the “all sin is equal” doctrine. Here is how it works:
    Since you are a sinner, so you cannot say anything about my sin. But I say you cannot say anything about me saying anything about your sin because that is a sin.

    Some YRR and fundamentalists also behave this way in the context of domestic abuse, child abuse, Christians who have pyschological health problems, or just about any sort of difficulty in life.

    If you’re walking down the street and someone mugs you and beats you up, these YRR, fundamentalists, Nouthetic counselors, and some 12 step program advocates, will ask you to instantly forgive the mugger, confess to your own sin and role in the mugging, etc.

    It’s asking the victim to blame him or herself for something they had no role or blame in, and God condemns this attitude in the book of Job and Luke 13:1-5 and other passages.


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    Quite right, too. And likewise, if you’re a mega-church pastor and someone questions your exegesis, you’ll naturally lead by example: forgive the critic and confess not only your sin that caused them to question you, but your bitterness in desiring to justify yourself.

    By the same token, if (say) a young man in your church cheats on his fiancee, you must lovingly reflect that there are no perfect Christians and even if you did find one, you wouldn’t let him join your church because you’d spoil him. You are not to discipline the young man in question, but instead you must yourself confess whatever sins and shortcomings in your teaching led him to have an affair.


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    Every one here needs to watch this video – John Piper, Mark Driscoll, and all those guys, above all need to see this:

    Maxi-Pad Company Responds to Man

    @ Richard:

    Quite possibly, 🙂 but some gender complementarians refuse to map out exactly when and if a woman may act of her own accord.

    Piper once wrote that a woman should not give a lost man directions, or if she does, not in a way that makes him feel less manly.

    I’m not sure what constitutes giving driving directions in a feminine, girly, demure, passive, biblically womanish way?

    Do I flutter my eyelashes a lot at the lost guy, or giggle a lot and blush while I’m talking to him?

    Or pull off a Geisha giggle, with a hand in front of my mouth?

    There are all these weird, arbitrary rules for gender roles with these guys.

    I hope I have addressed you in this post in a feminine manner. I would have added more sparkles, pink, and rainbows to it, but it’s not my blog.

    I’ll add some girly giggles,though:
    *tee hee, tee hee*


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    Daisy, there is something that sticks with me today that happened 16 years ago and makes me furious when I recall it. A woman I know was in a horribly abusive marriage. She was raped and beaten so bad it took 6 operations to repair her body. She divorced went through a horrible custody battle, broke and beat down. All this time she is in a mega church that would not life ONE finger to help her even though she begged some elders. She was young and not wise enough to leave the church as we all know how that goes.

    Years later, she met a great guy and they were set to marry. the mega had a rule you had to counsel there first so they went. right in front of her fiance, the mega church pastor said he could not marry her until she confessed her sin for divorcing the first husband and her part in the problem of the abuse. (The pastor knew of the horrible abuse as she told him)

    Her finance refused to go along with this and they married in his Catholic church, ironically.

    BUT…a few years later this same pastor was horribly beaten up on a trip up North when his car broke down. He did not handle it well at all. In fact, he was so angry at the injustice the elders kept him off stage for a while.

    Do you think he ever mapped his experience to an abuse victim? No. He still preaches and counsels the same ideas.

    He is a mega church pastor today. And people listen to him and think he is great. They know the stage persona. Not the man.


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    @ Anon 1:

    I was just discussing what I’ve seen.

    Some of the Patriarchy groups have been documented as believing that America can be re-won for God if they have a lot of kids. Some of their groups discourage their kids from marrying outside the group. They do not encourage witnessing to un-saved people.

    This was discussed in a lecture (and the video to it is online) by a woman who studies these folks. I posted the link to that video on an older thread, it was hosted on Vimeo. It was one of the videos here:
    List of videos, Freedom For Christian Women Coalition

    That thinking has made its way among some Southern Baptists, or guys like Pat Robertson (i.e., don’t adopt children – instead, get married to another Christian and have lots of your own kids).

    Doug Phillips on the Threat of Population Decline


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    @ Anon 1:

    That is such a terrible thing 🙁

    I’m glad your friend at least got out of the abusive marriage.

    I’ve had to learn the hard way since my mother died not to open up too quickly to people in face to face/ real life encounters, even Christians, about any hardship I’m under going, because some of them do have this attitude that you must be partially to blame for what happened to you, even if you weren’t.

    It’s victimizing the wounded person all over again.

    I have another post for you, a reply, but it’s sitting in moderation, probably because it contains 3 or 4 links.


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    @ Daisy:
    “There are more and more blogs and books being written and released advocating for Christians to marry before age 25 and have a lot of kids.”

    I first started venturing back into organized Christianity (online) about a year ago, and the very first week an awful vid was posted in blog comments under a De Young post about making babies for Jesus because otherwise there’ll be no witness left on earth. It made me run away for a few more months.

    The vid is called “The Demographic Winter”. After watching it, I invited a few irreverent friends over to see it too, and we drank Bells Two-Hearted while laughing heartily and it loosened the disgust from my brain. So if you want some fun, I recommend a party for:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxUD8E-qbyI

    FWIW, Daisy, I was married to an abusive man for 18 years, now divorced for 12. I wish I’d never known how awful a marriage can be. But I wish for you a good guy, sometime, if one shows up. I hear it can be lovely.


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    @ Patrice:

    I tried to watch the video. Lasted about 2 minutes. With the weepy ‘Oh no, Sweden!’ guy and the extreme racist insane conspiracy theory comments below the video, it’s just too much. I don’t want to destroy my brain cells with all the banging my head against the wall I’d be doing if I watched the rest of it.


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    @ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:

    I think we’re off to a good start. If we can throw in some graduate school terms like “reification” and “problematic usurpation,” I think we can really make this thing go.

    That is, as long as it’s winsome.


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    Wow, I’m getting an education! I’ve simply not thought complementarianism through. I know I tried to live a submissive wife-style, but it proved to be utterly frustrating. It wasn’t that my husband demanded anything of me, or that he wasn’t supportive of my development and pursuits; it was that I found myself sitting back and w-a-i-t-i-n-g for my husband to “lead.” I somehow picked up that my husband was supposed to speak first in a conversation, or come up with the next idea we needed, or initiate Bible study or prayer, etc…

    I found myself slipping from a vibrant thinking individual into a mentally and spiritually lazy state; after all, my husband was the one who was accountable and I was bored w-a-i-t-i-n-g for him.

    A few years ago, I looked around and realized that many of the Christian women in Evangelicalism that I knew were frequently complaining about their husbands. Apparently, we were all waiting around for our husbands to lead. But what was it exactly that we expected of them? Where did it spell out “leading” in the Bible? Most women would say the men needed to start a weekly family night, a daily family devotion, and then the list would trail off into ideas that sounded more like the men had to read our minds and then get in front of us and lead us there.

    So why weren’t the men leading? It couldn’t be that all the men were not being obedient to God? Maybe because it doesn’t make sense?

    I also noticed that the more “submissive” a woman seemed to be the more manipulative she also seemed to be behind the scenes. So instead of a woman openly discussing with her husband what needed to be done, she would finnegal behind the scene to make things happen. Seemed pretty deceitful to me. Seemed the men were being treated like they are idiots instead of in a respectful manner.

    Now, I am embarrassed to realize that I still have much of the complementarian influence in me and I didn’t even realize it. I need to go back to the drawing board and see what can I know from Scripture and what has just been made up?


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    @ Pam:

    I know, right? Only at a party, with beer. lol


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    @ Katie:
    Yes, it leaves the woman with only passive-aggressive options, which is just plain ugly.

    You needn’t feel embarrassed. It’s like treacle, covering everything over, sticking everything together until one can’t think clearly anymore.


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    Sergius Martin-George wrote:

    @ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:
    I think we’re off to a good start. If we can throw in some graduate school terms like “reification” and “problematic usurpation,” I think we can really make this thing go.
    That is, as long as it’s winsome.

    You need a PhD student’s contributions:

    Usurping in the 21st century – shifting paradigms?
    Usurper and Usurpee: solving problems or problematising solutions?
    The metaphysics of usurping
    The epistemology of usurping, an historical critique
    I surp, usurp, we all surp – the role of cognitive ownership in gender relations

    This is too easy


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    Katie, You just described the women in the large mega church women’s ministry programs I witnessed for years.

    I really think that is why they turned into basically social groups who were into cooking and decorating with lots of the comp interpreted passages thrown in for good measure. It was like a Martha Stewart competition.

    The shallowness was stifling. A spiritual wasteland. But guess what? They would never realize that unless they got away from it. And even then it can take a long time to process the indoctrination and what has become ingrained type thinking.


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    @ Katie:

    I’ve been where you are and, YES, go back to the scripture and sort it out. You might find a different conclusion than what you have been taught by the comps. You might end up with a more fulfilling relationship with your hubby as well, with some of the silly expectations rinsed away.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Here’s a correction on my Power Puff girls link:
    Power Puff Girls
    They’re little girls who attend kingergarten and fight crime and bad guys in their spare time.

    Ah, yes. Power Puff Girls. One thing to keep in mind is that no matter how weird or cartoony it gets, it makes its own weird sense. (Including supervillain downtimes and Kaiju trashing the town for bragging rights on Monster Island.)


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    @ Pam:

    I love it when it all comes together like this! It’s so “empowering!”


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    @ Patrice:

    I’m so sorry you were abused.

    I was engaged several years ago. There was no physical abuse, but the guy took financial advantage of me and was very self absorbed. He didn’t show any interest in me. It was all about him and what he wanted.

    He also made some cruel comments about a few things and showed no understanding. I broke up with him.

    I went to the video page you linked me to. It’s still downloading.

    I saw this comment by a visitor below the video (in regards to Christians/Muslims having kids):

    “The future belongs to Christianity and Islam”

    I’m not saying that Christians are going to stop getting married and having kids altogether, but…

    Unwanted, prolonged singleness has become such an obvious problem now among Christians in the United States (most of us believe in marriage before having kids, hence no marriage = no children), that some Christians have noticed it, and that’s why they’re publishing blogs and books encouraging Christian teens to get married and pro-create pronto.

    People are just not marrying as young as they used to, if at all. It’s also an issue among Non- Christians in the USA.

    There are a lot of Christian and Non Christian women ages 25 and up who want to get married, but they cannot find a partner.

    There have been articles about it off and on in the past several years, like this:
    Why Are So Many Professional Millennial Women Unable To Find Dateable Men?

    I think it’s even more upsetting for Christian women. I, like a lot of Christian girls, was told by Christians (parents, preachers, in books) if I was a nice, good, girl and prayed for a spouse, that God would send me one in due time.

    Okay, I was a nice Christian girl and still am, and I prayed and even tried dating sites and going to church. So where’s my spouse?

    It makes me want to barf, though, that many Christians, such as Mohler, only care about getting the young ‘uns of today married.

    If you are over 30 years of age, they either ignore you or blame you for being single, like
    this:
    30 and Single? It’s Your Own Fault [Say Some Christians]

    It looks to me that since marriages are being delayed or not happening, you’re simply not going to see Christian women having a lot of kids, and for most of us, we did not plan for this.

    But we get blamed for it by preachers, as though our prolonged singleness was intentional, though it was not.


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    Yes, Anon1, it is very shallow and stifling. And I think you are right that it becomes a competition, too.

    Bridget, I hope you are right. We have a pretty good relationship now, but I think much of that is my husband may have been much less indoctrinated than I have been. Together we are combing over scriptures to see it afresh. He’s just so glad I’ve got this demand for him to “lead” out of my head now. But I am sure we both need to unlearn much more!


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    Katie wrote:

    I also noticed that the more “submissive” a woman seemed to be the more manipulative she also seemed to be behind the scenes. So instead of a woman openly discussing with her husband what needed to be done, she would finnegal behind the scene to make things happen.

    1) I have long suspected a lot of Patriarchs’ wives were the real Power Behind the Pulpit/Throne, carrying their Hubby’s testicles in their purses and riding him like a Voudun loa riding their horse.

    2) I came out of a family upbringing where passive-aggressive manipulation was a fine art. I am sure my “baby” brother is a serious NPD case if not a full-honk sociopath. If anything would cause me to get physically violent and abusive towards a woman, it would be discovering she had been manipulating me. My hindbrain would get stuck on “NEVER AGAIN!”


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    Patrice wrote:

    The vid is called “The Demographic Winter”. After watching it, I invited a few irreverent friends over to see it too, and we drank Bells Two-Hearted while laughing heartily and it loosened the disgust from my brain. So if you want some fun, I recommend a party for:

    Ah, yes. Outbreed the Heathen and roll over them with numbers. Us or Them. Extreme Islam has a version of its own, except with them it’s “Outbreed the Infidel.”


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    Daisy wrote:

    Some of the Patriarchy groups have been documented as believing that America can be re-won for God if they have a lot of kids. Some of their groups discourage their kids from marrying outside the group. They do not encourage witnessing to un-saved people.

    This is a variant of Outbreed the Heathen called “Bedroom Evangelism”.

    Penetrate, Conquer, Plant…
    Penetrate, Conquer, Plant…
    Penetrate, Conquer, Plant…


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    Beakerj wrote:

    Sorry, too busy running hither & thither usurping all the men I know to participate in this conversation. Back when they’re all thoroughly usurped.

    *+++++ 1! This made my evening…thanks!


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    On another note, some aquaintances of mine recently had a baby born dead. Their patriarchal church which is part of Acts 29 immediately started promoting international adoption to them. I thought that was a bit inappropriate so soon to suggest that.

    Sounds like either “One Size Fits All” obsession or “When all you have is a Hammer, Everything looks like a nail.”


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    Daisy wrote:

    Didn’t Mark Driscoll advise Christian wives that even when they are sick or menstruating (often the same thing for a lot of women, btw), that they should still perform sexually?

    Now THAT’s straight out of a porn flick.

    That this man thinks he cannot live for more than 3 – 10 days without sex repels me so much.

    I have a standard comeback fo that:
    “You haven’t gotten laid in three days? I haven’t gotten any in 57 years. GROW! UP!”


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    Katie wrote:

    I also noticed that the more “submissive” a woman seemed to be the more manipulative she also seemed to be behind the scenes. So instead of a woman openly discussing with her husband what needed to be done, she would finnegal behind the scene to make things happen

    I think I discussed this in this thread or the last one the other day. It’s known as “codependency.”

    It’s not just Christianity, though, American secular culture also socializes females to be passive, repress anger, don’t directly express needs, etc.

    This is discussed from a Christian perspective in the book “No More Christian Nice Girl” by J. Degler and Paul Coughlin.

    Christianity tends to make the situation worse by telling Christian women that all this being hyper- submissive / passive/ nice stuff is what God expects or demands of them, when God wants to free them from this.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Note this advice came from a MALE. Since when did HE ever have to go into labor or give birth? Glib advice ALWAYS comes from those who never experienced it and never will.”
    Just wait until he has to pass kidney stones!

    A friend of mine DOES have problem with kidney stones. I had to take him to the ER once when he was having a bad one (a staghorn that almost ruptured one kidney). I know for a fact this guy has a real high pain threshold, and he was completely doubled over and helpless from the pain.

    And a couple years later at a Furry con, one of the staff had a kidney stone attack; I watched the Pittsburg paramedics take him out writhing and screaming.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    The shallowness was stifling. A spiritual wasteland. But guess what? They would never realize that unless they got away from it.

    Thinking about what you said here. I’m still in an Evangelical church and though the complementarianism is never talked about and seems on the light side, I’ve been paying close attention and realize the undercurrents may still be much stronger than I realized.

    I remember as a child in a denomination outside of Evangelicalism, that women seemed to be free to be normal, for lack of a better term. As a result, we went in search of some denom churches to see what we could see. At an Anglican church we found a completely different attitude with and about women. It felt freeing! I figured if I could pick up on that much of a difference just visiting one time, then something is far more wrong with my complementation-light church than I ever realized.

    I can see a great need for me to get out of this bubble, even if it’s not as bad as others.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I have a standard comeback fo that:
    “You haven’t gotten laid in three days? I haven’t gotten any in 57 years. GROW! UP!”

    I’m in my early 40s and haven’t had sex, and yes, I do experience sexual urges on occasion, so these entitled preachers such as Driscoll who don’t even attempt to practice self control and who demand sex from their wives whenever, where ever, and treat their wives like performing circus seals can go suck a lemon.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Katie wrote:
    2) I came out of a family upbringing where passive-aggressive manipulation was a fine art.

    Unicorn, I am outspoken so while my husband and I were dealing with things up front, I was blind to what the other women were doing for a long time. Finally, a close friend got married at 40 and she turned into the most manipulative, conniving woman that I was shocked! All the while she was smiling and saying, “Yes, dear.” I begged her to be honest and up front with him, but she kept saying I just didn’t understand southern men and that he had to be the leader and she could not be forthright with him. She just wouldn’t acknowledge all the “leading” she was doing with her underhanded, deceitful ways.

    It really made me stop and take a serious look to see if any of that was in my own life. It’s just dishonest.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Katie wrote:
    It’s not just Christianity, though, American secular culture also socializes females to be passive, repress anger, don’t directly express needs, etc.

    Is that why so many of our mothers in the 70’s were hooked on Valium?


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    Women have been abused in their marital relationships.

    What?

    Men in our society are not really any different from those who came before?

    huh?

    Women are suppressed, their spirits crushed, making them into cheap blow-up sex toyz.
    can’t see da results in the proliferation of porn, and  posh advertising serving up women as tantalizing tiny tasty tidbits of sexual pleasurable ful-fill-ment, with ‘no’ other apparent function?

    Is this what God intended for the woman? For the man, for that matter?

    More than likely… far, far, far…less, I’m afraid.

    (Sadface)

    Is there a moral imperative here? 

    Is it not the presence of self-governing reason nestled within the breast of each and every person, that offers decisive grounds for viewing each person as in possession of equal worth and therefore deserving of equal respect?

    Have women (in their frequent oppressive encounters with men)  –have they  just simply sought to sanely ‘override’ the confining bounds of this proverbially proscribed hell hole?

    (is dat a 44DD straitjacket, your wearing?) 

    hmmm…

    I wonder why?

    They talk about God-given design?

    Yet they say these things:

    “We can’t expect anything different because that’s the legacy of sin?”

    What kinda cr@p is dat?

     It doesn’t have to be that way?

    hmmm…

    Odd.

    That it is entirely possible to have a thriving and vibrant marriage relationship where the wife is cared for, lifted up, exalted, and allowed to be all that God intended her to be; where the husband knows how to devote his life, lovingly providing; allowing God to help him be all that God intended him to be?

    hmmm…

    What nonsense now replaces the plan that God originally intended?

    Is it time ta punch da clock?

    Sopy


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    I forget how kidney stones came up, exactly (still recovering from a cold) but it seems like there’s a simple equation for establishing the manly mettle of neo-Calvinist patriarchs–each dudely dude gets to pass a kidney stone for each child he wants his wife to bring into the world. 🙂


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    I keep having this feeling I should just throw in the term “undifferentiated ego mass” as another thing that may be going on in families trying to follow the neo-Cal model. It seems like it could overlap with the concept of codependency.


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    WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:

    I forget how kidney stones came up, exactly (still recovering from a cold) but it seems like there’s a simple equation for establishing the manly mettle of neo-Calvinist patriarchs–each dudely dude gets to pass a kidney stone for each child he wants his wife to bring into the world.

    Sounds like a fine plan to me. Voddie Baucham first, please. :o)


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    The manipulation I saw women use in comp marriages made me crazy. I called it the “daddy/husband” syndrome because it reminded me of the tactics a teen girl would use to get daddy to buy them something. Or the fake ego stroking was ridiculous. I cannot believe the men were so stupid to fall for it.

    yes, it is deceitful and not worthy of a believer. But somehow they had to make it his idea so he could “lead” and she gets what she wants or needs. Of course, it cannot be two adults who are partners having a discussion and coming to an agreement! Heaven forbid!

    Disgusting.


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    The comp women I know frequently express that they’re happy their husband is “in charge” because then all the problems are his fault. Talk about a copout! Then these same women, five seconds later, turn around and talk about how they believe in “personal responsibility”…


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    @ Pam:
    U surp pee. Too funny. (you slurp pee?)


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    As much as I disagree with the hermeneutics of their handling of Scripture, I can empathize with their main point, which seems to be that much of the Neo-Reformed preaching is ridiculously male-centered.

    My wife and few ladies at our old Calvinista church raised some (very, very gentle) concerns about this, and asked to have a women’s perspective included in sermons more. As in, perhaps not using “porn and video games” as every single example of sin. They also asked to start a women’s Bible study.

    The result? The elders awkwardly and aggressively came down on the ladies in what was the most dysfunctional, frustrating, and tragic thing I have ever seen in a church setting. Lots of strange, false accusations thrown around. Lots of Bible-thumping and references to Pauline and Petrine “submission” proof-texts.

    I wonder what sort of reaction this blog post will get from the Pipers and Driscolls. It mostly makes me feel sad, as I imagine that these women might be trying to advocate for their own spiritual needs, but in a way that toes the Calvinista party line and doesn’t anger their husbands/leaders.


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    While I don’t comment much, I do read, and want to say how much how much I feel this is family. Especially, here where i have much common ground with Daisy and HUG. While I’ve never heard anything about Eve’s physical appearance, I know that in many conversations about sexual restraint, I’ve been told “You just don’t understand just how hard it is ”

    When the “Usurping Women” conference is ready, let me know the date(s) and I will be there.


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    Mr.H wrote:

    The elders awkwardly and aggressively came down on the ladies in what was the most dysfunctional, frustrating, and tragic thing I have ever seen in a church setting. Lots of strange, false accusations thrown around. Lots of Bible-thumping and references to Pauline and Petrine “submission” proof-texts.

    I’ve seen this same reaction when a pastor is asked about concealed finances, or when a leader’s sin is revealed. When I see the same reaction over a small suggestion, such as these women made, I know there’s much more under the surface than meets the eye. It’s not small or innocent, else the response would not involve so much spiritual warfare.


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    As I said earlier, I need to reexamine what Scripture says about women’s roles/place/relationship with husband. As we were looking up Scriptures last night, we both concluded we need help with reexamining the usual proof texts. Does anyone have some good recommendations of books or resources to help me in my quest?


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    @ Katie:
    There are others who post here who are more well-read and studied about theology, history, etc. than I am (which is why I love to read here). I hope someone will give you the info you ask for. I just wanted to tell you that I, too, came from a strict comp church, and it was a poor fit for us. My husband is very kind, laid-back, and fun-loving. I am a little stubborn, an introvert, and ask a lot of questions. Our minister told my husband our marriage wouldn’t last two weeks if we left our church. It’s been a year that we’ve been gone from it, and we’re doing just fine. Better than ever, in fact. My own opinion is that each individual is unique, and each couple is unique. A comp form may be suited to some couple’s personalities, and not so much for others. I think it’s wrong to assert that comp is the “Christian” or “gospel” form for a marriage. (Or a church, or a community) It leaves no room for love to weave its way to unite a couple into the unique arrangement that God intended it to be. Just my two cents.


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    Katie –

    You could go to this site http://www.godswordtowomen.org/ for a start. They have articles and recommendations. Jon Zens has a book called “What’s with Paul and Women?” (I think.) Wade Burelson also wrote some articles which can be found at his blog site. You might need to do a little hunting.


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    @ Katie:
    May I recommend the book “Gender and Grace” by Mary Stewart Van Leewuen. I found it extremely helpful in my journey. It is not a Bible Study, but one that looks at women’s roles in a variety of cultures and how grace works.

    Another book, strictly for encouragement, is “Prayers of the Women Mystics” by Rhonda de Sola Chervin


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    @ Katie:
    Search on the Web for Christians for Biblical Equality. They have many resources, including an academic journal, a magazine, and a bookstore, as well as conferences. It is an organization with an evangelical statement of faith that advocates not feminism but equality as they see the Bible supporting.


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    @ Anna A: Thanks so much for the book recs – glad you’re here!


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    Thanks so much, Bridget, Anna & 56 yrs!

    I appreciate all the help I can get.


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    BTDT, I can’t believe the pastor predicted the demise of your marriage because you were leaving his church. Ugh!

    Many moons ago, my husband and I were separated. The church placed a woman over me and a man over my husband to counsel us. I had a list of concerns that no one would have known about but me and told the woman over me I wanted her to give my list to my husband’s “counselor.” You see, we were getting no where fast and I was desperate for a breakthrough. The woman told me, “I can’t give him your list because I’m a woman and he’s a man. I have to wait until he asks me if you have any concerns.”

    Needless-to-say, that was the end of that counseling. Thank God, we ditched them and found another way to work out the issues. 20+ years later we find how they handled us more disturbing than ever.


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    Katie wrote:

    As I said earlier, I need to reexamine what Scripture says about women’s roles/place/relationship with husband. As we were looking up Scriptures last night, we both concluded we need help with reexamining the usual proof texts. Does anyone have some good recommendations of books or resources to help me in my quest?

    Katie – if I may… the trouble with proof texts, of course, is that by definition they are small fragments of scripture taken out of the full context of the bible (which has 1180 chapters and 0,000’s of verses). This is why one can prove pretty much whatever one wants from the Bible, at the same time accusing one’s opponents of either being deceived or of willfully distorting the scriptures to satisfy their sinful and rebellious desires. And so on.

    In my humble opinion, Katie, by far the most important resource you and your husband could possibly get your hands on is a twofold one: your own conscience, since you have to live with whatever conclusions you come to, and the Holy Spirit himself whose presence is promised to all believers and who seals the “personal relationship with God” that evangelists the world over preach about. The question (which I have absolutely no business answering on your behalf) then becomes: what can we state, such that we can honestly say of it, “it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us”, like the early church?


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    Re adoption:

    Just because a child is older, has been abused, and in foster care does not make them free for adoption. Most state agencies prefer to continue working with the family and hoping for reunification of the bio parents and the children.

    That can keep kids in legal limbo literally until they age out of the system.

    There are plenty and scads of children needing homes, not that many legally free for adoption.

    And as parent by adoption to a child that was mentally ill and had a constellation of inherited behavioral problems (genetic, testable) don’t castigate those that do not not want to adopt a child with “hangups.”

    It isn’t fair to other children to bring in one who may very well have a history of molesting younger children, knifing parents, destroying all the property in a home, setting fires, etc.

    It takes a special breed of person to handle that and honestly, some of those poor children probably shouldn’t be placed in a home. Parents have to sleep sometime. Residential treatment centers truly are a better option at times.

    Until and unless you have actually adopted and raised one of these children, don’t judge anyone else for not wanting to do so, please!


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    @ Katie:
    It gives me the heebie-jeebies just reading about your “counseling” experience. Just as the secular world, the religious world, Boy Scouts, and others are reexamining their response to child sexual abuse, I suspect, years from now, believers will heave a collective shudder at the “gospelly” beliefs being promoted now. I’m glad Dee and Deb have provided this platform for these issues to be discussed and examined. Unfortunately, a lot of people have been hurt by these beliefs.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I have long suspected a lot of Patriarchs’ wives were the real Power Behind the Pulpit/Throne, carrying their Hubby’s testicles in their purses and riding him like a Voudun loa riding their horse.

    Remember too, it wasn’t a handsome Greek butt-boy who incited Menelaus to support his brother Agamemnon in his armada assault on Troy, twas’ Helen, favored greatly by Aphrodite.


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    Katie wrote:

    As I said earlier, I need to reexamine what Scripture says about women’s roles/place/relationship with husband. As we were looking up Scriptures last night, we both concluded we need help with reexamining the usual proof texts. Does anyone have some good recommendations of books or resources to help me in my quest?

    Hi Katie,

    I highly recommend Philip Payne as an excellent resource:

    http://www.pbpayne.com/


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    @ linda: I very much agree on the kids who are a danger to themselves and to others… I wish it didn’t need saying, but I know of cases and… there are good reasons a lot of those kids are *not* getting adopted.


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    @ linda: Being the parent of a special needs child (*any* kind of special need) is extremely challenging, and not just because things are often difficult at home – it’s dealing with schools and so very much more.

    People who have special-needs kids need all the support they can get, and then some…


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Katie wrote:
    … by far the most important resource you and your husband could possibly get your hands on is a twofold one: your own conscience, since you have to live with whatever conclusions you come to, and the Holy Spirit himself whose presence is promised to all believers and who seals the “personal relationship with God”

    “it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us”, like the early church?

    Thank you, Nick! I agree with this idea, however, we realize that the “proof texts” are embedded in our minds. Our conscience tells us we have some misunderstanding of Scripture. Though we want to listen to our conscience, we don’t want to throw out what we CAN know from Scripture. We imagine that hearing someone else’s different perspective might shake loose some of what is embedded in order to hear a different narrative.

    May the Holy Spirit teach us … and help us to unlearn the unhealthy.


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    Re: BTDT,

    What is so amazing is that we were attending a Bible Church and this was decades ago. It wasn’t connected to IFB, CC’s, Driscoll, SGM’s, or CC’s where I see these offenses most often. Yet, some of the people brought with them this influence into the church, a new plant.

    The existence of such inequalities were not visible because they were so subtle. It wasn’t until I had a marriage issue that I discovered my counselor woman had such notions, and then another woman I was told to spend time with exhibited the same. (Her husband would not allow her to put any decorations on any wall anywhere in their home and then she was not allowed to spend time with me for fear my marriage issue would influence her to leave her husband. &%$#!)

    Is this in all evangelical churches, if you include the subtle forms?


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    Thanks, Victorious! I’ll check it out.


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    Katie wrote:

    As I said earlier, I need to reexamine what Scripture says about women’s roles/place/relationship with husband. As we were looking up Scriptures last night, we both concluded we need help with reexamining the usual proof texts. Does anyone have some good recommendations of books or resources to help me in my quest?

    Scripture should always be used to interpret Scripture. So, if you suspect that a specific passage is being used as a proof-text, examine it in light of the overal context of the book in which it is found, as well as in light of what Scripture as a whole teaches. One really helpful exercise is to examine how the entire NT describes and explains women’s roles in the church, and then to compare that broad portrayal to the tiny, commonly-cited passages in 1 Timothy 2-3, 1 Corinthians 14, Galatians 3, etc.

    Two guys who advocate a contextual approach to these proof-texts are Ben Witherington and Tom Wright. They generally argue that the prohibitions against women leading/speaking/teaching are temporary prohibitions given in a very specific situation. Here are two good places to start if you’re interested in their views.

    Ben Witherington:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5VQe_nuNJg

    Tom Wright:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwj287xr0uQ


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    Thank you, Mr. H!

    I went to two colleges. One was so rigid when it came to women that I nearly suffocated. At my second college, I got a much better education. The focus was on hermeneutics, keeping the Scripture in context, without the school telling us what to believe inside the pale of orthodoxy.

    I thought I was free of the influence of those who believe women were not equal, but that I was operating within the guardrails of supposed “Biblical” roles. I see now that I have missed some very important info on the subject. I’ve been influenced my whole life, even when I thought I wasn’t. I doubt that I’ve understood “roles” correctly.

    We are both committed to reexamining this subject with as much objectivity as we can muster. Context is king, but I think we have been blinded for too long to trust our “objectivity” on this subject.


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    Daisy wrote:

    …so these entitled preachers such as Driscoll who don’t even attempt to practice self control and who demand sex from their wives whenever, where ever, and treat their wives like performing circus seals…

    That’s not a relationship.
    That’s a Caveman-style rapist situation or a prostie servicing a John on demand.


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    Katie wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Katie wrote:

    It’s not just Christianity, though, American secular culture also socializes females to be passive, repress anger, don’t directly express needs, etc.

    Is that why so many of our mothers in the 70′s were hooked on Valium?

    Now for an appropriate classic from Mick the Lip:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13olfeD026g


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    The manipulation I saw women use in comp marriages made me crazy. I called it the “daddy/husband” syndrome because it reminded me of the tactics a teen girl would use to get daddy to buy them something. Or the fake ego stroking was ridiculous. I cannot believe the men were so stupid to fall for it.

    Besides deceitful, it also has this creepy vibe of Incest. But then, any guy who wants his wife to service him on demand yet remain a perpetual child in all other ways has this creepy Pedo vibe.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Unwanted, prolonged singleness has become such an obvious problem now among Christians in the United States (most of us believe in marriage before having kids, hence no marriage = no children), that some Christians have noticed it, and that’s why they’re publishing blogs and books encouraging Christian teens to get married and pro-create pronto.

    It makes me want to barf, though, that many Christians, such as Mohler, only care about getting the young ‘uns of today married.

    And all the rest of us older and single? They just write us off as a bad investment and ship us to Hinnom Valley (Jerusalem City Dump).

    After all, we’re too old to Outbreed those Heathen.


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    @ Katie:
    I’ve spent the last two decades in what many would consider a fringe group. I haven’t kept up with mainstream evangelicalism until now. Like you, I’m trying to sort through this and get my bearings. I’m hesitant, yet, to say that all evangelistic churches are patriarchal/comp or authoritarian. But, I am concerned that the fringe elements are seeping into the mainstream when I read comments such as this:
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/03/15/tim-challies-and-the-gospel-coalition-some-bloggers-are-gospel-deficient/#comment-88206
    I do not want to go from one abusive group to another. Right now I’m content to read my Bible, pray, and follow a few blogs to try and heal from what I’ve been through. I’ve received wonderful book recommendations from people here on other issues I asked for help on. I feel safe here. I hope you, too, find the answers you’re looking for.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    Teshuqah is derived from the idea of a stream running to the sea, the water “desires” to flow downward to the sea. We see that this “desire” of water is part of God’s plan of Creation. So we should not think of it as negative a priori. SOS uses it in the good way, Gen 4 uses it in a bad way. What are we to make of its use in Gen 3?
    After just being told that she will have kids with pain, she is told she will “want to flow towards” her husband. ENDQUOTE

    I agree the idiom is about water. It is about water running “to and fro” which lends to “turning” as in turning from God to Adam.
    The pain is not redemptive. Giving birth to Messiah is, however. And that was the implication in that passage.
    Desire…the whole sexual position on this gets us away from the real message of Messiah and redemption and makes it man focused, once again.

    To further this, the word translated “Desire” is used only three times in the Bible – Gen. 3:16, Gen. 4:7 (If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it *desires* to have you, but you must rule over it.”- also translated “desires”) and once in The Song of Solomon (also translated desire, despite other words also being translated ‘desire’ in that book too). It is a hard to translate word, but it is not a “turning” as the other two times it is mentioned, that wouldn’t fit for a translation, so we would need more than this obscure word in Gen. 3:16 to help us with this context, unfortunately, this is all pre-exilic writing/lingo so we have nothing to go on.

    I have taken courses on this, read theologians on this and I favour Scot McKnight’s view, that Genesis has 4 breaks in it: the relationship from God to Man is broken, the relationship of Man to himself is broken, the relationship of Man to each other is broken (as Gen. 3:16 is about human relationships in general, not specifically male/female relationships – this is furthered by the Cain/Abel story in the next ch.), and Man to nature is broken. Since Adam and Eve are the only two humans introduced into the story so far (although clearly there are others, as we will see in Gen. 4 when Cain becomes afraid of them), then it is a sign of their broken unity, and bad “desires” being explained here.

    One more point about flowing water in the ANE (Ancient Near East). The Ocean, where the rivers desired to flow, was considered evil, because it was pure chaos. The near Ocean, the one people could fish in, was OK, not good, but passable, however, The Deeps were considered very evil and dark. That a river desired that deep dark place would damn a river’s goodness in the ANE’s eyes. Think of God’s destruction of the world by a flood – it was the Deeps that overcame the world, not volcanos or meteors, rather, the deep, dark Ocean. Deep, dark, uncontrolled desires have always been considered evil. In the ANE, certain female deities were portrayed as dark, deep, chaotic (all very evil things). The relationship as equals (despite Owen Strachan trying to say God was submitting to humans when he helped them, in the garden all people were equal) is now broken, the desires are now dark. I think we get far too caught up in Eve is bad = females are bad. Remember the ancients didn’t read chronologically, they read beginning and end mirror each other and the meat of a writing is in the middle. Since Gen. 1 – 11 (Creation to Adam) was read as one piece in the Ancient world, the meat of the story is: Creation, creation destroyed (fall), un-creation (flood), recreation/restoration – is the flood (not Gen. 2). Gen. 1-6 is a mini-chiastic structure within the larger structure. Eve desiring Adam needs to be balanced by it’s mirror story in Gen 6:1-2 (When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose – this is a wrong desire of the “sons of God”, balancing out the wrong desire Eve now has incurred on herself in Gen. 2). But what is really important here is: this story was pieced apart by the ancients into Gen. 1, Gen. 2, Gen. 3 etc. The main point of this story is that denying God has terrible effects, the crescendo being God wiping out the world by letting evil take over (the Deeps are symbolic of evil). It just begins in the garden, moves out from there – Cain and Able, Lamech, and continues to get worse, ending up with everyone desiring/inclined to do evil. It is our modern reading that makes Gen. 2 into this huge formula, when it can’t be read apart from the whole chiastic structure. So Eve desires her husband (wrongly) and the sons of God wrongly desire women (whom they find beautiful), and the world is now a mess.

    Just one more note about curses – only the snake and the land get cursed, true, but in Gen. 8:21 God undoes the curse on the land ( The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood). So when Owen Strachan (head of CBMW, and Piper and Mohler’s crony) tells us men need to go work outside of the home (as they are cursed to do the work) and women must stay home (since they would be taking the man’s responsibility, as he is the one cursed to work), just remember, God undoes curses when pleasing sacrificial aromas reach him… anyone think any of these curses still apply? Oh, Cain also gets himself cursed too Gen. 4:11 (“Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth”) because, to the ancients, being a nomad was so much lower than being a farmer. Don’t buy it? Look at the first nations vs. Europeans, esp. in the northern parts – the hunter/gatherers have always been disadvantaged to the farmers. Some things have been going on for a long time. However, we don’t agree that nomads are cursed and farmers are not in this day and age!


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    .My own opinion is that each individual is unique, and each couple is unique. A comp form may be suited to some couple’s personalities, and not so much for others. I think it’s wrong to assert that comp is the “Christian” or “gospel” form for a marriage. (Or a church, or a community)

    Yes! I don’t understand the view that all human beings need to torture themselves and contort themselves to fit into these rigid and often ill-fitting roles, especially when they are of such dubious origin (not exactly handed down by God from Mt. Sinai–and even in that case, look what Jesus said about the Sabbath being made for man, not man for the Sabbath). You bring up an important point that strict comp teaching is not fair to men either. And it’s not healthy for relationships. Don’t people need to work with each other as they actually are, as individuals, instead of holding each other to these externally enforced ideas about how they both “should” be? How on earth is mutual acceptance, openness, and love not “gospel” enough?

    “It leaves no room for love to weave its way to unite a couple into the unique arrangement that God intended it to be” – a beautiful idea beautifully stated.


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    @ Val:
    Arrrggghhh I ment Gen. 1 – 11 (creation to Abraham!)


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    BTDT,

    I thought I was safe going into a Calvary Chapel, assuming they were more progressive in general. But it was more restrictive than some of what I experienced in the IFB. It really surprised me when I finally figured it out. The women were definitely treated like they were less valuable than the men. So many married couple reported the same issue, that the pastor would side with the husband even if he committed adultery. The women were forced to accept their unfaithful husbands back into their beds immediately out of submission. It was sick.

    One man walked out on 7 kids and his 3rd wife, but was still welcome to participate in ministry. The woman was maligned for being mad. (see head banging against brick wall!)

    I understand your reticence to get back into the game.


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    @ Val: Native peoples here in the northern US farmed *and* hunted for food. Pretty much like the European settlers…


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    @ Val: In the eAst, anyway. Horses changed things tremendously for Plains peoples.


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    Katie

    If anyone would like to tell their story re: Calvary Chapel, have them let us know.@ Katie:


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    @ numo:
    The first nations that grew food in the NE (I am not as familiar with US First Nations, but that was the Herons north of the great lakes), did grow maize, and seasonal veggies, but did not solely sustain themselves by farming. Very few North American first nations could quit the nomadic lifestyle to exclusively farm (Tuscon area Navajo could, I believe), and the farther north you go the less farming they did. People have been seasonally farming for millennia (20,000 years in the Old World) but always forced to be nomadic and never perfect their farming until only 10,000 years ago in the Old World and only about 2,000 – 3,000 years in the New World (and limited in the New World to the warmer climates).

    Notice the First Nations did not herd animals (well, they rounded up buffalo, but they had to follow the herds in order to round them up), corn is not a sustaining diet on it’s own, and other New World foods – peppers, tomatoes, for example, could not be preserved, so they could farm in the summer, but had to go hunt/fish from the fall – spring. The Old World had wheat (grew wild on the Asian steps), and that was an easy crop to develop for agriculture, it allowed them to move on to other grains, and they developed legumes – protein- sooner, as it was more widely available in those regions. They also herded animals and so they could eat the meat. This was not universally true of the New World. Yes, Peru was similar to the Old World: guinea pigs, lamas, quinoia, etc. but, for whatever reason, that skill did not widely disseminate to the rest of the Americas. This left the North American first nations a lot less time to move on from basic agriculture (corn in it’s wild form is so far removed from it’s edible form it took the New World thousands of years to develop it into an edible food – an amazing feat, but something that slowed them down in agriculture), to development – crop diversity, permanent settlements, metal extraction and use, diversity of labour.

    The first nations used next to no metal in their tools or weapons, putting them at a huge disadvantage to the Europeans. They did use easily extractable metals (gold, silver (?) and copper pre-contact) but all of these metals are quite malleable, great for making jewellery, bad for making tools or weapons. They didn’t get much farther because they were way behind the Old World in agriculture. It is to agriculture that we owe all our building and crafting abilities, without the time gained by freeing people from food production/gathering and ability to accumulate possessions (impossible in a nomadic culture) – and no large taxation system, nor writing. In nomadic and semi-nomadic societies, the time and ability to build, craft and create does not exist. Nor is there any incentive to work towards making heavy objects, if you can’t take it with you, why bother to make it at all? Now, if the Europeans had just come and left a few horses and chickens (native to Nepal/India), and goats and lentil seeds and gone away again, the first nations would be well on there way to European-like society in no time, but they were not at all like the European settlers because they had no means to settle permanently. They were either full-time or part-time Nomads (Wanderers is what Genesis calls there lifestyle).


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    dee wrote:

    Katie
    If anyone would like to tell their story re: Calvary Chapel, have them let us know.@ Katie:

    I’ll ask. I think these stories should be told.


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    @Val

    So when Owen Strachan (head of CBMW, and Piper and Mohler’s crony) tells us men need to go work outside of the home (as they are cursed to do the work) and women must stay home (since they would be taking the man’s responsibility, as he is the one cursed to work)

    Technically, if they want to be precise, men need to toil the ground and allow it to grow thorns and thistles; i.e. they must make farming/agriculture their career.

    lol


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    Katie wrote:

    I found myself slipping from a vibrant thinking individual into a mentally and spiritually lazy state; after all, my husband was the one who was accountable and I was bored w-a-i-t-i-n-g for him.

    I have noticed that I will default into “submissive wife” mode when I am being lazy. When I don’t feel like being mentally involved with something I just disengage and tell hubby whatever he decides works for me. I have a hard time believing that kind of behavior is “holy.”


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    Katie wrote:

    Thinking about what you said here. I’m still in an Evangelical church and though the complementarianism is never talked about and seems on the light side, I’ve been paying close attention and realize the undercurrents may still be much stronger than I realized.

    I call it “pop complementarianism.” They don’t really preach gender roles but there is an undercurrent of what men and women are supposed to be like in order to fit in.


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    In psychology, it is sometimes called “bubba psychology” , “bubba” being a yiddish word for grandmother, derived I believe from babuska. So we apparently have “bubba ecclesiology” and “bubba theology”. From the people, by the people, for the people who serve God.


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    My husband asked, “Are women cursed three times?”

    1. Pain in childbirth
    2. Ruled over by a sinful man
    3. Has to work too. (Many outside jobs are easier with defined work hours than homemaking and raising kids.)


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    “Pop Complementarianism” and “Bubba Complementarianism” — LOL! So much truth to that!


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    @ Val: Pueblo and Navajo people her animals and farm.

    Even the northern Plains tribes herded animals (mostly horses).

    Midwestern and more southern Plains farmed, too, though not exclusively.

    *Southern* peoples farmed a good deal, though not in a European manner.


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    @ numo: Herd. (Sheep, goats, etc.)


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    @ Val: Have you read anything about the Mound Builder groups and what they did?

    Also, per agriculture, complex social systems, cities, *very* non-portable architecture and sculpture (much of it monumental), etc. etc. etc. – see Mexico and points south.


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    @ Val: I think one reason that agriculture was developed in parts of Europe – in an intensive way – was/is likely related to the feudal system.

    There were elite classes in the Native civilizations in Mexico and points south, but I have to wonder if there was anything like that – in a big, organized way – in the US. (Aside from chieftains, etc.)


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    Two things have occurred to me in my search for answers on these issues. The first one is that Jesus came to break the “curse” and to restore us to our original relationship with God the Father. So did Jesus break the “curse” or not? and if He did why continue to bring it up today? The second thing is the word usurp. After looking into the meaning of it I am a bit confused. Most of the way it is translated is in the way of using force to take control over something ( like a kingdom )usually with violence. In that light how many women beat the pastor over the head, pushed him off the stage and then proceeded to preach?


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    @ numo:

    We have visited the extensive mounds in Ohio. We also visited mounds in Texas, Arkansas, and a couple of other states. These indicate a stable population residing within a short distance of the mound site, which suggests agriculture. There is also an indication in some of these sites of raising maize as a major part of the farming, and of the consequent tooth decay and other sugar related problems (high fructose corn syrup in the raw form???).

    Also some evidence at some mound sites for having tamed animals.

    Note, horses and horse related culture only came about after Europeans brought the animals to the New World. Same for “cattle”.


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    Last fall we visited the pueblos in New Mexico. Extensive built up communities that preceded the Spanish conquest. Also appears that some of the war-like plains tribes traded and raided some of the pueblos. The “sky city” pueblo on top of a mesa with high steep sides, is particularly worth the trip, about an hour west of Albuquerque, as are others scattered in New Mexico.


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    beth wrote:

    In that light how many women beat the pastor over the head, pushed him off the stage and then proceeded to preach?

    Oh, that’s funny! :0


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    @ Arce: Thanks for your posts!

    I would love to visit some of the pueblos and mound-builder sites… maybe someday.


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    If you do a search for American Indian mounds, you should come up with some that are not so far away! They tend to be everywhere in the eastern and southern part of the country where they were not destroyed by farmers at the insistence of a preacher.


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    Numo

    I lived in New Mexico on the Navajo Reservation and spent weekends exploring all of the well known, and lesser known pueblos, etc. Let me know if you go for a visit. 

  292. Pingback: 9 Marks: A Curse on Usurping Women? | The Wartburg Watch 2013 |


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    Victorious wrote:

    Charis wrote:

    With all due respect, I totally disagree. I find nothing redemptive or positive in the consequences of Adam and Eve leaving the garden. They are all negative consequences.

    Even the consequence of “you shall surely die” is merciful when the alternative is eternal life in sinful flesh.

    For the single women, you do have sexual desire, menstruate, and go through menopause?

    While I think some sexual desire would have been part of the pre-fall condition, I also think the passage indicates that desire and conception increased post fruit eating. (Compare with other mammals who have only seasonal “desire”, don’t menstruate in the manner humans do, and don’t go through menopause).

    Desire is used in Song of Solomon 7:10 of sexual desire, and Gen 3:16 mentions pregnancy and childbirth not once, but twice.

    God is a good father. The consequences of our straying are painful but redemptive IMO.


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    To clarify, I am convinced increased sexual desire is a component of the woman’s increased desire for her husband.

    There is also a propensity since Gen 3:16 to make husband an idol and follow him instead of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 5 Ananias and Sapphira for example).


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    @ Arce: There are some small burial mounds in my part of the Mid-Atlantic states, but you really do have to go both south and west for the really large Moundbuilder sites. The local peoples here didn’t go in for mound-building – very different culture. (Most were part of the Iroquois confederation.)


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    @ dee: Will do!

    I’d love to go out there someday.


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    Arce wrote:

    If you do a search for American Indian mounds, you should come up with some that are not so far away! They tend to be everywhere in the eastern and southern part of the country where they were not destroyed by farmers at the insistence of a preacher.

    Arce, Numo, everybody:

    The Mound Builders (TM) were sort of the “Chariots of the Gods” fringe tabloid fodder of their day. You see, when white men first pushed west of the Appalachians, they found all these artificial Mounds left by the vanished Missisiipian culture of a thousand years before and interpreted them as the remnants of a Lost Race — a Lost WHITE Race, since red savages couldn’t possibly have built them.

    In the early 19th Century, The Mound Builders were THE fad subject of tabloid speculation and popular fiction, the UFOlogy of its day. Where did this Lost White Race come from? Vikings? Celts? Lost tribes of Israel? And how did such a mighty and advanced race vanish? Massacred to extinction by the red barbarians?

    And in the middle of this period, this guy named Joseph Smith in the Weird Religion capital of the time (the Burned-over District of upstate New York, the California of its day) adds yet another new religion to the mix…