Breaking News: SGM Flings It and Attempts to Get a Dismissal

There is an old adage about flinging a bunch of human excrement at a wall to see what sticks. Well, add some oil and it gets real slimy. NBC News is reporting that Apostle CJ and his band of men, women need not apply, are seeking dismissal of the lawsuit with some dubious claims.

Sovereign Grace Ministries says in a motion to dismiss the lawsuit that Maryland courts can't get involved in the internal affairs of church business.

The church group's lawyers also say the case should be thrown out because its allegations are so vague. For instance, they say the lawsuit leaves unclear how old the plaintiffs were at the time they say suffered abuse.

The suit was filed in Montgomery County. The church recently moved its headquarters from Maryland to Louisville, Ky.

I have one thing to say. "Hey CJ, give us a call. We'll tell you how old the victims were and we don't even attend SGM."  I need to take a shower.

Comments

Breaking News: SGM Flings It and Attempts to Get a Dismissal — 114 Comments


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    Eagle

    tch,tch…They need to know if she was 3.1 years old versus 3.15 years old.


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    Let’s not beat around the bush. Such a response as SGM has filed is evil, plain and simple. It’s sociopathic in its lack of concern about the victims. Such callousness is about as far from Christian as it is possible to be.


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    Marge

    Thank you. My links were glitching on me. So I did a reboot of my computer and now it seems to work. 


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    Pam

    Slimy human excrement was my attempt at not beating around the bush. 🙂


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    Eagle

    You, me and HUG  are going to dinner one night. That will be one for the books!


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    It seems to me that if SGM had nothing to hide, they would be more than willing to let the courts find that out through the legal proceedings. This desire to hide behind the 1st amendment shows how much they are really trying to cover up.


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    I firmly believe that unless the judge is completely insane, these motions will, in their entirety, be laughed out of court. None of them holds any legal water….they are lost in their own universe.


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    The late, great Leslie Nielsen. Perfect to play CJ in the movie version except that he has too much hair. Wait, maybe Andy Serkis who did such an amazing job of playing Gollum (my preccciousss) http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1790946304/nm0785227 or Ralph Fiennes, so creepy as Voldemort…http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ralph+fiennes+voldemort&id=E36E930B31D1BA11D5BAE5088B6CA564C297111D&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=664A60C3419B695D4EF24E5CF3BC9E7B06AC0AA2&selectedIndex=6


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    This is an expected move. Civil defense attorneys frequently look for some issue to get into court on a motion to dismiss. Relatively inexpensive, puts into the record an issue for appeal later (even if it has a low probability of success on appeal). It ties up plaintiff resources, etc., and gives the attorneys a sense of the attorney(s) on the opposite side. The only question is when we will see another such motion or a motion for summary judgment.

    Just standard defense stupidity, and the issue they chose is weak at best. “We are a church so what we told people to do is part of our religion and you can’t sue over it, even if what we advised was evil and against the law that applies to everyone else.”


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    So in SGM’s eyes, a crime’s not a crime if it happens in a church?
    And there I was thinking that judgement BEGINS in the household of God!


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    “Maryland courts can’t get involved in the internal affairs of church business.”

    If that flies you can kiss religion goodbye because nobody’s going to join if they have to give up all legal protection when they do. Desperate times call for desperate measures.


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    Haven’t we been saying we are the worst sinners you know?

    Whatever you are, that is your business, I dont really care. What I do is none of your business, either. It’s certainly not right for any governmental judicial system to be sticking their nose into our religious business. I dont vote in keeping with my Mennonite upbringing, and I resent the world for attempting to interfere in our private, religious lives!

    Everyone needs to mind their own business and I will mind mine! Which brings me my business of working to promote our ministry’s books, music and CDs.

    And please dont forget to purchase tickets to our upcoming conferences where we will be speaking on how you should conduct your personal, private, religious, marriage, financial, sexual, dating, athletic, family lives in ways we prescribe. Along with our recommendations on what books you should read!

    Thank you serving us and praying for us! We are doing better than we deserve!


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    Check out this blog post by Pastor Ken Garrett who is speaking out against this new SGM development: http://goo.gl/8EEkX Ken reads here from time to time. Go Ken!!!


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    How insane are these people? How can they even allow their lawyers to make them look even more ‘mad’. Even if they were innocent on all charges, this motion shows how cold hearted and evil they really are. Does anyone even need to judge their character further?
    There was someone over on Survivors a while back who wanted to picket the SGM churches and pass out flyers, but I don’t think it ever happened. Maybe it’s time? If the members refuse to look at the evidence because they are so brainwashed, at least let seekers be warned.


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    “Maryland courts can’t get involved in the internal affairs of church business.”

    IF that flies then what about Sharia law that limits some civil rights of women being practiced by Muslims? That would be internal affairs of a church group.


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    “Haven’t we been saying we are the worst sinners you know?”

    Carolyn, We are finally starting to believe you! You guys have been trying and trying to tell us but we just did not realize how right you all were all along!


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    I am surprised that picketing hasn’t started….how long do these guys think they can just continue with “business as usual” and ignore the big elephant in the room?…..wow, this little band of men is so “impressed” with themselves…


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    Julie Anne,

    Ken’s post was excellent! Thanks for that link.


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    Will do, Carolyn. Whatever you say… Your wish is our command. 🙂


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    @ Pam:
    I will sign YOUR petition. Please use those same exact words.


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    JulieAnne, thanks for the link to Pastor Ken Garrett!


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    You guys, Ken is my go-to resource for spiritual abuse. He knows it. He’s experienced it. He has researched it extensively and if you listen to his sermons, you will often hear something connected to spiritual abuse. Be sure to check out his blog on abuse topics. Ken’s church has the same name as my former church (Portland Grace Bible Church) except replace Beaverton with Portland. He got a lot of hate mail and phone calls with people thinking he was suing me. That’s how we met. Funny story (sort of), but I’m thankful for it because now we are friends.


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    Hmmm — I think it was established a while back that SGM, etc., is not incorporated as a church…so I’m not sure how they can try to use the church card if they aren’t one. Don’t know how things have changed since they moved — and the individual churches probably are incorporated as churches. But SGM, once upon a time, and maybe now as well, is a CJ-owned business.


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    Eagle wrote:

    Some of the stories…Happymom, Noel, etc… are so detailed. So I guess it is the Gospel to force a 3 year old to forgive her molester.

    “GOD HATH WILLED IT!”

    “TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM!” — Benny Hinn


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    SGM may have made this move on foot of legal advice however just because a legal team advises something does not mean a client should slavishly follow it. Many defendants in Child Abuse cases have made a bad situation worse by following advise that makes them look heartless and cruel. Legal teams usually walk away with their fee in their coffers and their reputation in tact while their client is destroyed as they followed advise which has compounded the initial abuse and exposed a win at all costs mentality.


  26. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    From the blog linked to by Julie Anne:

    “If they spoke freely, they might admit that something smells very, very bad in their church now, and the guys up front with the aerosol cans of Lysol aren’t doing a very good job of hiding the stench.”

    It’s funny, isn’t it, that John Piper seems to have completely disregarded the stench. Grievous.

    This latest defense filing is really grasping at straws, legally. Highly doubtful that a judge will dismiss at this stage based on their flimsy nitpicking. I think SGM is showing a really weak hand.


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    Read on Survivors that CJ Inc. has now also hired a woman lawyer for this case. Can we say, read between the lines and oh, the irony of it all?


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    @ RB:

    RB, you beat me to it!

    Honestly, it’s so incredibly absurd I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I would love to be a fly on the wall for meetings between the SGM leadership and their female lawyer.

    Maybe instead of direct face to face meetings with their female attorney they’ll use Carolyn as an intermediary?


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    Anon1wrote:

    IF that flies then what about Sharia law that limits some civil rights of women being practiced by Muslims? That would be internal affairs of a church group.

    I think this is a great analogy because there are actually a lot of comparisons that can be made between, for example, the Islamic Republic of Iran and SGM. Both have “religious laws” that are technically considered to override the laws of the state. In SGMs case it was the “law” that members report everything to the Pastors and not report incidences of criminal misconduct to the civil authorities. SGM took the law into their own hands, and judged things according to their authority, which they deemed to be biblically accurate on par with God and therefore above being subject to the governing authorities of the state. But in both SGM and the Islamic Republic of Iran their relative hierarchies are, in reality, ambiguous.

    Yet this is the argument that SGM using against the state, claiming the state’s authority in the case is ambiguous and is based on vague and unsubstantiated “allegations” and not the truth.

    For those who spent time in SGM, this position comes as no surprise given the unwavering belief SGM has in their own truth, having repeatedly made bold claims that everything they say and do is “biblical” and “gospel-centered”. In short, they lay claim to the truth. SGM has developed their own truth and they will fight, at all costs, to protect it. Its what they’ve developed, marketed and made their money off of. It doesn’t matter that people have been injured, what matters is protecting the brand.

    I hope SGM ends up being told, in no uncertain terms, that people are not commodities and that their religion is not biblical. That when you ignore the real truth, replace it with a false version, and violate the law, it will end up costing you dearly.


  30. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lots of good comments.

    Ken’s post is excellent.

    I just met this week with a man who has been kicked out of his church for bringing up the fact that the church knew of sexual abuse in a “safe house” recommended by the church and run by one of its staff members. The church did not condone wrongdoing. The church just did not report it, or talk about it or acknowledge it until AFTER the statute of limitations ran on the victims. The church is in a big building program etc. It is very sad.

    Lots of good questions about the motion to dismiss. I haven’t read it. Is it available on line?

    These First Amendment motions are not always unsuccessful, and it was probably a smart move to file it. If the lawsuit is being controlled by the insurance carrier, the lawyers have more say in this than the church. I am not sure the church could stop the filing without voiding the coverage or the defense being provided.

    It’s often the case that these type motions are filed. It will probably not be successful, but it could be successful in part. Also, the judge may order that the plaintiffs being more specific as to times, dates etc. if that is legally significant.

    The fact that SGM is not a church doesn’t matter. First Amendment protections extend to all religious organizations.

    And yes, this would apply to Sharia law, as well. There are some things that might happen in a Mosque that would be internal and about which U.S. law would not govern.

    But I don’t believe failing to report child abuse applies.

    The counseling one gave in the face of abuse might apply. But failing to report doesn’t in my opinion. Nor does putting the molester back with unsuspecting kids. That’s what got the Catholic church.


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    Rafiki

    Who knows? According to his system, he may be one of the unregenerate wicked and that is why he consorts with such individuals. Heck if Andy Davis can say it about my friends, I can say it about Piper. 

    Also, I hall skype the dinner if it happens. It will be better that Pawn Shop Treasures.


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    “Sovereign Grace Ministries says in a motion to dismiss the lawsuit that Maryland courts can’t get involved in the internal affairs of church business.”

    That’s the stupidest thing I ever heard.

    LOL @ Carolyn! They really do wear their ‘worst sinner’ credentials as a badge of honour, don’t they? It’s a humble brag of Biblical proportions. I’d love to hear one of them say it and then hear someone respond ‘Yes, clearly you are. You’re the worst sinner I know, too’. I’ll bet they wouldn’t take that very well!


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    Mollycar

    In this new era, when most of the general public looks, with horror, on child sexual abuse, SGM is placing their brand name on the line. They will be tarred and feathered by the allegations in this lawsuit. They have made choice to batantly disregard the children who were hurt-to the point they claim not to know their ages (like it matter whetehr they were 3 or 3.2 years old).They prove, by this defense that they are not worthy to lead  a church since they appear not to have known or cared enough (or lied-who knows?) the ages of these victims. They will be laughed at by this defense. 

    These men have forever tarnished the church by this response. . Do these people deserve the hard earned tithes of the people? 

    Why is it that I, a nonSGMer, knows the ages and stories of these people and the pastors do not? What were they doing? Spending too much time listening to sports nad castigating Lance Armstrong?


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    Evie/Nickname

    Did you see the “girls” at GirlTalk are pushing a Vision Forum series for kids? I wonder if Doug Phillips is planning a visit to Louisville next?


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    “These First Amendment motions are not always unsuccessful, and it was probably a smart move to file it. If the lawsuit is being controlled by the insurance carrier, the lawyers have more say in this than the church. I am not sure the church could stop the filing without voiding the coverage or the defense being provided.”

    Such “Christian” pragmatism.


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    I don’t understand how they can logically claim first amendment protection when it’s former members and participants of the church that are filing the claim? So basically if you join SGM you forfeit your legal rights as a human being and US citizen and are subject only to the leaders of SGM? What a nightmare for the families involved.


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    Kristin wrote:

    So basically if you join SGM you forfeit your legal rights as a human being and US citizen and are subject only to the leaders of SGM? What a nightmare for the families involved.

    And just think… These are the same God’s Predestined Elect who speak of Outbreeding the Heathen and taking over the country to turn it into A Christian Nation (with God’s Predestined Elect as Commanders of Gilead — Humbly, of course).


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    “The suit was filed in Montgomery County. The church recently moved its headquarters from Maryland to Louisville, Ky.”…

    …Translation: You can’t sue us because we skipped town! Nanny nanny boo boo!


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    dee,

    Thanks for alerting me that the ‘girltalkers’ are promoting resources from Vision Forum.

    What our kids are listening to right now

    “All the boys in our family have recently spent hours listening to the action-packed Jonathan Park radio drama adventures. From the website: The adventures follow Jonathan Park, son of paleontologist, Dr. Kendall Park. While running from a storm, Jonathan and his father collide with the Brenan family as they seek shelter in a hidden cave. After discovering a massive dinosaur graveyard that shows evidence for a worldwide flood, these two families have combined forces to build a new museum, open the fossil discovery, and the hidden cave to spread the message of the Creator!”

    http://www.jonathanpark.com/

    WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED?


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    @ theShield:

    That’s what I thought when I read that part (insert eye roll).


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    Deb wrote:

    After discovering a massive dinosaur graveyard that shows evidence for a worldwide flood, these two families have combined forces to build a new museum, open the fossil discovery, and the hidden cave to spread the message of the Creator!”

    “Young Earth Creationism Uber Alles,
    Uber Alles in die Welt…”

    Wish-fulfillment — a Discovery of Irrefutable Evidence PROVING Noah’s Flood and Young Earth Creationism!!!!!!! Like finding Genesis 1 inscribed in KJV Bible Code on the human genome, something to rub in the faces of all those Heathen with PhDs — “SEE? SEE? I’M RIGHT! YOU’RE WRONG! SEE? SEE? SEE? HAW! HAW! HAW!”


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    “So basically if you join SGM you forfeit your legal rights as a human being and US citizen and are subject only to the leaders of SGM? What a nightmare for the families involved.”

    The church of Diotrephes.


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    The fact that they hired a woman lawyer is merely for the smokescreen and mirrors effect. I’m sure they will be most polite and respectful to her to her face, and in court, of course. Personally, I have no respect for especially, a woman who would try to help CJ Inc. out of this. Let’s hope she’s really incompetent and ends up helping the plaintiffs, instead.


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    I’m frankly embarrassed for them, no matter what their lawyers tell them about how to proceed. It’s just making them, the church, & Christ look worse to onlookers. Nice work.


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    “The fact that they hired a woman lawyer is merely for the smokescreen and mirrors effect. I’m sure they will be most polite and respectful to her to her face, and in court, of course. Personally, I have no respect for especially, a woman who would try to help CJ Inc. out of this. Let’s hope she’s really incompetent and ends up helping the plaintiffs, instead.”

    Yeah, that is a public image move. The lawyers they have historically used for SGM are men.


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    “These First Amendment motions are not always unsuccessful, and it was probably a smart move to file it. If the lawsuit is being controlled by the insurance carrier, the lawyers have more say in this than the church. I am not sure the church could stop the filing without voiding the coverage or the defense being provided.”

    How Christlike. Pragmatic Christianity. We need the insurance carriers to tell us what is right.


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    @Phoenix:

    I think James Carville should play Mahaney if a movie is ever made [“A Few Ba(l)d Men”? “The Bald and the Dutiful?”].

    https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT_AFDUisxD-lCprF-3_KdcH6Nu8LeeML8oENL0LB6cZuqF2plbEQ

    Or, better yet, Bill Hader, a real actor. If he can play Carville, he can play Mahaney.

    https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLpd0_R48H9ZPhaHT4B-Ld7vmRJD9puXLBV51S4K4QzI8wVwRWow


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    Deb

    A Post for sure.


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    JeffB

    I kind of imagined Johnny Depp.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    How Christlike. Pragmatic Christianity. We need the insurance carriers to tell us what is right.

    The insurance carrier’s Lawyers, actually.

    “It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”


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    Deb wrote:

    dee,

    Thanks for alerting me that the ‘girltalkers’ are promoting resources from Vision Forum.

    WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED?

    Follow the money. Follow the money. Follow the money. Follow the money …


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    @ JeffB:

    I vote for Ralph Fiennes. I’ve seen him in a role in which he was very giddy and buoyant — which surprised me because he does the deceptive to very dark side so very well. Sounds like the right skill range.


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    @ JeffB:

    Bill Hader is a good idea.

    With a shaved head, playing Ceej could be a tour de force for Jim Carrey. Although those of us of a certain age would think it wasn’t much of a stretch from his old “Fire Marshall Bill” character. 🙂


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    So, um, how’s that petition going? Pretty sure I signed it. I’m also somewhat shocked to see so little signatures going. Is there something we can do to promote this more?


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    Miguel

    The problem has to do with Brent Detwiler.(correction from earlier) People are still mad at him for his participation in the years of antics in SGM.He hurt a lot of people in his days.  I am of hte opinion that the petition needs to be redone as a separate thing with no ties whatsoever to anything brent has done.


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    There’s No Happy Ending For the Happiest Place on Earth

    Wow, I’m glad I’m not the lawyer trying to tell a judge that he/she/society has no business telling my clients not to cover-up sexual abuse because he/she is merely an ungodly secular authority, not a PASTOR! So SGM and CLC are okay accepting mucho non-profit tax breaks from society, as a church, but don’t want pesky members of the public or representatives of the civil legal system telling them we don’t appreciate them endangering our kids to protect their bottom lines.

    Message received.

    Also, according to the court docket, rather than the NBC report, the motion is for partial dismissal and trying to get cases dismissed is pro forma. Some aspects of the suit may be thrown out but that doesn’t mean the whole thing is done.

    I’m not a lawyer but I think that the worst case scenario is that the class action suit would not be allowed to go forward which would then free the plaintiffs to file personal lawsuits about individual issues.

    I doubt this is what the SGM guys really want as defending oneself from one big lawsuit seems preferable to being sued by lots of individuals for a really long time.

    Then there’s the whole criminal aspect attached to not following mandatory reporting requirements, in MD, that will probably apply to some of the defendants if what some SGM pastors told the Washington Examiner about how they blew off complaints about an alleged serial pedophile is true.

    Somehow I don’t see a happy ending for the defendants at this point as society now knows what they’ve been up to. There will be repercussions even if they get off on a technicality.


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    Serevetus of Louisville?”

    LOVE IT.


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    Servetus, Calvin’s good friend, a pulmonary physician. Ironic that Calvin died while at the pulpit preaching, of a burst blood vessel in his lung. Not that the suffering involved makes me happy, but happy for the reminder that God is not mocked. Vengeance is His and He will re-pay, but especially for the future, because He also promises to deliver and comfort the oppressed and afflicted. Waiting for the curtain’s other side.


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    Dee, Did you make a typo? Which Brent did you mean?


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    Barb

    Oh good night! Major typo. Thank you so much. I have a stomach virus and I am not thinking too clearly.


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    Glad to be extra eyes.

    Sorry to hear that! Bummer!! 🙁


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    @ Rafiki:

    Yes, Fire Marshall Bill! Mahaney does look a little like a skull.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Actually, his comment made a lot of sense legally. He had been asked “Is there a . . ..” and at the time of the question there was not. So he said no. The questioner violated the rule of a good deposition questioner by not following up with “Was there ever . . ..” To which the true answer would have been yes. Before answering the “is” question, Clinton consulted his attorneys and they determined that the question was asking about the present so he should answer it that way. But it was an intentionally laid trap by asking a question that could have multiple meanings, because the questioner really meant “does this situation involve . . ..”.


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    Pastor Garrett’s post was most interesting.

    Dee, I hope you feel better soon!


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    An Attorney wrote:

    Actually, his comment made a lot of sense legally. … Before answering the “is” question, Clinton consulted his attorneys and they determined that the question was asking about the present so he should answer it that way. But it was an intentionally laid trap by asking a question that could have multiple meanings, because the questioner really meant “does this situation involve . . ..”.

    I know it makes sense in a legal context, where every word has to be precisely defined. But to everyone else, it looks like somebody caught with his hand in the cookie jar trying to BS his way out with semantics and technicalities.


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    Hmmm….thinking. If SGM is relying on their insurance carrier’s attorneys, they are in big trouble. Those attorneys will be operating in the best interest of the insurance company, not the Ceej. Also….if, during these proceedings, something is discovered that proves CJ/SGM lied or misrepresented their liabilities in the form of past actions and behaviors, CJ/SGM may find themselves without insurance…..

    Insurance companies that insure churches/ministries/ministers ask some very specific questions concerning allegation of abuse……


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    SGM is still listed as a non-profit in good standing by the Maryland Department of Taxation and Assessments. It’s listed as a foreign corporation by Kentucky’s equivalent dept. Thus it hasn’t relocated in any meaningful sense. Even if that weren’t the case, I think that the defendants would still be held responsible for their actions in MD unless they fled to a non extradition country, and they can’t pay anyone enough to harbor them abroad.

    It’s generally considered better for a man accused of sexual abuse to be represented by a woman. Therefore I was surprised that Mahaney and crew initially picked male lawyers but then there can’t be many women (or men) who can stomach representing them.

    I think Al Mohler’s finally in a bind even he can’t get out of regarding SGM and CJ because the problem is no longer just about supporting CJ or SGM. People are going to start asking him if he thinks Christian pastors in general should be using the First Amendment as a serious rationale for letting pedophiles run wild in their churches.


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    Marshall Coleman wrote:

    It’s generally considered better for a man accused of sexual abuse to be represented by a woman. Therefore I was surprised that Mahaney and crew initially picked male lawyers but then there can’t be many women (or men) who can stomach representing them.

    Or their male-supremacist attitude wouldn’t let them stomach being represented by a mere woman.


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    “think Al Mohler’s finally in a bind even he can’t get out of regarding SGM and CJ because the problem is no longer just about supporting CJ or SGM. People are going to start asking him if he thinks Christian pastors in general should be using the First Amendment as a serious rationale for letting pedophiles run wild in their churches.”

    Marshall, this is an interesting perspective except I disagree with you. NO ONE asks Al Mohler a question he does not want to be asked. Not even the SBTS Trustees. No one who disagrees with him can get that close. Unless he opens himself up to a secular reporter I don’t see that happening. He used Peter Smith (Courier JOurnal) to get a supporting quote on Mahaney out to the public right after Mahaney stepped down. Not sure Smith would be so accomodating now.

    I do agree with you that Mohler is in a bind. However, he is one of the most brilliant political strategists out there and has spent 15 years building his base and influence. He pretty much operates as a separate entity in the SBC and is untouchable. I believe that is why Mahaney is here. His bind is more about how he manages “image” in all of this. If you notice, he is being his old “culture warrior” again. People ate that up for years and it is part of how his New Calvinism/YRR strategy to take over the SBC flew under the radar for years.


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    Marshall

    Here is an unpdate. CJ has a female attorney which means he is really,really running scared.

    You said  about SGM “ It’s listed as a foreign corporation by Kentucky’s equivalent dept.” I started laughing so hard when I read this. I can tell you this. Their alleged actions seem foreign to the Bible!

    As for the extradition- I wonder if SBTS has considered declaring themselves a country-ala the Vatican!

    As for Al Mohler: His silence in this matter is an embarrassment for the Christian community. But then again, he does not appear, in my opinion, to be too concerned about the nuts and bolts when it comes to child sexual abuse and the church. Oh, don’t get me wrong-he has written eloquently about how he is against it. But, many hardened convicts in prison are against it as well. I just think he doesn‘t want to do anything when BFFs clam up about the issue. Need I say Phillip Gunn?


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    Challies just posted the first Gospel Coalition response to SGM; “Think Biblically About CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries”

    http://www.challies.com/articles/thinking-biblically-about-cj-mahaney-and-sovereign-grace-ministries

    Challies calls for us to love and hope for the best for accusers and the accused. He also says: “I have been careful to keep in mind Proverbs 18:17 which says, “The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.” It is so simple, but so consistently and demonstrably true. There are always two sides to a disagreement and often one side chooses to speak loudly and boldly and the other to remain silent. This is particularly true when one side is acting on the counsel of legal advisors who will almost always insist upon withholding evidence until formal legal proceedings have begun. We tend to believe that the side that is slow or hesitant to release information must be in the wrong, that their silence is an admission of guilt. Keep in mind, though, that Jesus did not protest his innocence and that people took this as a sign of his guilt, though he, of all men, was completely innocent.”

    He also says that most of us don’t need to know about this (very strange, to me):

    This is an issue of greater urgency to some than others. The way each of us thinks through it will depend on the extent to which we are stakeholders, to our relational proximity to those involved and even geographic proximity. If you are a member at a SGM church this issue is very urgent, and particularly so if your church is considering withdrawing from the association. However, the majority of us are far on the outside with very little at stake. For this reason many of us simply do not need to have an opinion.

    “The farther we are from being stakeholders, the less the likelihood that we are equipped to helpfully evaluate the facts and that we can do anything helpful with the information we learn. The farther we are from being close to those involved, the greater the likelihood that we are drawn more to the scandal of it all than any noble purpose. Not all knowledge builds us up; not all knowledge helps us; not all knowledge helps us love God and love one another in deeper ways. The fact that today’s media allows us to have access to facts, does not necessarily give license to avail ourselves of them.”

    Comments are closed for the article.


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    Right Challies because its your business to tell others to mind their own business because issues like this dont have anything to do with our interconnectedness as part of the Body of Christ where one suffers we all suffers?


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    Is anyone surprised regarding Challies’ SGM article? Hardly an objective view. Don’t forget his church declares the following, “We maintain a close association with many local churches with whom we share a deep affinity in the gospel of Jesus Christ. These churches include:

    Sovereign Grace Church Toronto”
    http://www.gfcto.com/about/affiliations


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    Not to mention SGM is mentioned as a resource under their links section.
    http://www.gfcto.com/links


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    @ Evie,

    Don’t forget (sarcasm on) Challies’ job is “Informing The Reforming. He is the informer, we are the informeeeeeees. We must learn our place. Please remember, we are to “be willing to remain in ignorance” about such things as SGM’s scandals. (T4G band of bloggers 2012.) This is the truly biblical and gospel winsome way. Except for the fact that Challies gets to know things and not remain in ignorance, as he is The Informer. See how that works? (sarcasm off)


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    Appealing to Mohler’s Secular Media Business Contacts May Work

    Thanks for the comments, all.

    SGM’s Stupidity

    Dee, the Vatican idea is great and if these guys were Catholic, they could be harbored by the real Vatican ala Bishop Law, the infamous head of the Boston Diocese.

    The actions in question seem foreign to the Bible, common sense, etc. Mahaney may be into sports but he’s sure not taking a hit for the team that’s supporting him. He’ll use any tactic to try and get out of his mess no matter how much that embarrasses his supporters like Piper and Mohler. With friends like CJ who needs…

    My guess is that the behind-the-scenes deal SGM made with CLC about the real estate issues in their contract is a big part of why they can’t get out of MD. I’m asking the IRS to look into the matter since I can’t figure it out and my tax dollars are paying for this SGM/CLC racket.

    More Petitions About Broader Issues
    While I’m happy about the existing petition about CJ, I agree that it reflects Brent Detwiler’s obsession with CJ rather than an attempt to address the bigger problems at hand with SGM and CLC.

    I think there’s room for more petitions that focus on the broader problems of SGM and CLC. The earth will keep rotating on its axis of CJ goes to the Gospel Coalition but Josh Harris’s decision to let CLC be a menace to the community it’s in, by not notifying the public about the the allegations of covering up sexual abuse against it, is a big problem because kids could still get hurt at CLC.

    Harris is playing the innocent until guilty card but protecting people from slander and protecting kids are not mutually exclusive goals, and the CLC pastors know that.

    When I was in college, the library put up lots of notices saying there were allegations that someone was wandering around sexually harassing people. That seemed excessive to me because one would assume you have to be careful in a large college library. However, a lawyer attending one of the seminars I was in told me that the school could get sued if it didn’t notify people of a problem like that.

    By contrast, I received correspondence from an SGM employee last year saying that CLC has internal child protection procedures and grievances policies that are limited to members,. The public is on its own.

    That still seems to be CLC’s policy despite being named in a suit with more than 144 counts of actions pertaining to covering up sexual abuse and its knowledge that a former volunteer appears to be being criminally charged with molesting at least one kid whose family was a member of CLC and reported the abuse to CLC pastors who blew the problem off.

    So I guess if a visitor’s kid gets molested in the nursery all he/she can do is stand up in church and give Josh Harris a shout-out about the problem. Yet the CLC pastors repeatedly claim that they have robust procedures for protecting children.

    CLC really should close down all their child-related services. Any competent attorney would advise them to at least put up notices about the allegations against them so members of the public can make informed decisions about putting kids in the nursery.

    Mohler May Lose His Standing With the Mainstream Media

    I agree that Mohler doesn’t care about what his fellow Evangelicals think because he’s in the business of telling them what to think. However, he has lots of business ties to the secular media from which his true global prestige is derived. He’s the darling of Jon Meacham, the ex-editor of Newsweek, for example.

    Maybe I’ll write a letter to Jon Meacham and ask them to ask Mohler if the First Amendment invalidates mandatory reporting laws and frees pastors to set up pedophile-friendly churches. Mohler has said he thinks that singles groups are unbiblical. Let’s ask his friends to ask him whether pedophile groups are Biblical.

    🙂


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    So Challies’ response amounted to little more than “Why should you care? Your children weren’t molested”? These guys are gonna have mountains of crow to eat if the suit goes to court and SGM loses spectacularly.

    Mahaney’s books have been promoted far and wide across evangelicalism so I think many American Christians have a “right” to care. Also, anyone in the homeschool community will know how intimately involved the Harris family is with the foundations of that movement and how much influence they still have. If Josh Harris is at some point drawn even deeper into this, every Christian homeschooler in the country will have a “right” to care because they could be tarred with the flying s*** that could be expelled from the proverbial fan in that scenario.


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    HEIL PIPER…

    Yes, although I am concerned…(sarc on) because Challies links something HE worked on first under the resources on the links page…then SGM 2nd…then Desiring God ministries 3rd. Beings they (CBMW devotees) are really into the order of things…creation order and all that…that puts C. J. Mahaney before Piper in the link order. Surely that has to mean something? (sarc off)


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    Interesting article — but did he acknowledge victims at all? Did he even say he was concerned for them, praying for them, or is he waiting (after all these years) to see if there actually are victims. Good grief, the RBDs are like men with their ears plugged, eyes and mouths covered, humming to themselves so they don’t actually hear anything. He appears more concerned about what everyone “out here” does than he is about the human beings that have been hurt and felt they had to go to “secular” authorities to be heard.


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    ” I have deliberately avoided learning too much.”-Tim Challies responding to SGM Lawsuit.

    This is the reason why child sex abuse is not treated seriously by the church. Hear no evil, see no evil...the pedophiles love it!

    Tim Challies will allow no comments. Talk about a male fail! Real men can take it but wussy men cannot.


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    ” I have deliberately avoided learning too much.”-Tim Challies responding to SGM Lawsuit.”

    Wonder what “too much” means?

    His whole article, imo, is fully of thinly veiled bias. Backing SGM and the leadership…while saying he is not backing them. All while putting the guilt on anyone who does not think the best of others at all times…or who would dare to NOT deliberately avoid learning “too much”-whatever that means. I might not want to learn “too much” either if I promoted SGM at my church and had close relations with an SGM church in my town.

    He mentioned the word victim once in his article.

    No comments? (sarc on) Of course not. It would be ungodly to comment…right? What could we possibly comment about anyway, beings we are supposed to be willing to be in ignorance about this in order to be biblical? (sarc off)


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    Diane wrote:

    @ Evie,

    Don’t forget (sarcasm on) Challies’ job is “Informing The Reforming. He is the informer, we are the informeeeeeees. We must learn our place. Please remember, we are to “be willing to remain in ignorance” about such things as SGM’s scandals. (T4G band of bloggers 2012.) This is the truly biblical and gospel winsome way. Except for the fact that Challies gets to know things and not remain in ignorance, as he is The Informer. See how that works? (sarcasm off)

    Diane, this is just really incredible. I really don’t know how to make sense out of this. For anyone to be paying half-way attention to any of this dispute involving SGM, they would know the court case is only a part of it, and that people have been speaking out against SGM for the problems that have been going on unchecked for decades. Telling people to not discuss the court case is like asking everyone to ignore the elephant in the room. The court case is bringing attention to the complaints Challies’s fellow Christians have been leveling against SGM for legitimate reasons. The legal battle is a legitimate case. And our discussion of these matters are legitimate. The fact he would attempt to silence people under the insinuation that our discussion of SGM is somehow lacking biblical merit is insulting at best.

    Perhaps Challies doesnt understand our right as believers to judge these matters. Yes, SGM is being taken to court. But long before the courts were invovled, people were witnesses to the overwhelming misconduct of SGM employees toward members of their so-called churches. Furthermore, scripture discourages Christians from taking out lawsuits agaisnt other Christians. But again, anyone paying half-way attention to what people have been saying about their experience in SGM is that SGM shut down efforts by members to work out problems with them and resolve them biblically. SGM is the problem here. Likewise, it would appear Mr. Challies shuts down discussion and doesnt like to listen to criticism either. Is it me or are all these guys just big sissy’s? I mean sure, some of what gets said about the SGM situation goes overboard at times, but the fact is we are Christians who know God and his Word, and we have judged SGM to be at fault, and our assessment of things MATTERS. If Challies doesnt see it that way, he really can’t expect others to listen to him as if what he says matters. He has put himself in the crosshairs with a lot of people already, and people now have a legitimate reason to question Tim Challies and his skill at accurately handling the word of God. I would say his ignoring the facts against SGM, his silence and support of SGM, and now this article, reveals a man who is out of touch.


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    Summary of what he is saying: “SGM might be innocent…y’know, just like Jesus….and not all knowledge helps so just because there are facts available doesn’t give you the right to read them, know them, or form any opinion based on the facts.”

    Hmm, if people actually believe there is any value to this kind of guidance or advice towards embracing willful ignorance, then it becomes very easy for the rest of us to see how so many people get manipulated into following these self proclaimed leaders. I mean, who needs facts when you have a leader willing to go ahead and dictate your opinion to you based on their own.
    News flash: leaders often have ulterior motives, but facts never do.


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    Challies: “Because I am not a part of SGM I am not forced to take a side and, therefore, will not.”

    Send him a bowl and a washcloth so he can wash his hands of all this.
    Gee, it is so comfortable to be an ostrich (with one’s head in the sand).


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    dee wrote:

    ” I have deliberately avoided learning too much.”-Tim Challies responding to SGM Lawsuit.

    This is the reason why child sex abuse is not treated seriously by the church. Hear no evil, see no evil…the pedophiles love it!

    Tim Challies will allow no comments. Talk about a male fail! Real men can take it but wussy men cannot.

    I totally agree with you Dee! This guy along with his buddies have taken their appeal for a Masculine Christianity and made it dead in the water. If their behavior is an example of manliness, then their definition of a man is – as you say – a wuss! I mean, really! The women who comment here show more courage then all those guys PUT TOGETHR.


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    If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality. –Desmond Tutu


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    Eagle wrote:

    This also goes to Evie…

    With Tim Challis you have to remember he’s the mouthpiece for Neo-Reformed theology. He is the Joseph Goebbels for the Neo-Reformed movement.

    As Joseph Goebbels once said, “It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion.” For the Neo-Reformed crowd Tim Challis is the state.

    Nuff said…

    HEIL PIPER!!

    @ Diane:

    You nailed it Eagle. Challies has stepped over his boundaries and stepped in it, that’s for sure. And that is exactly what he must view as his job, formulating public opinion. I am truly astounded by this. I find it hard to understand how someone who claims to be a Christian is so detached from the Body of Believers and takes a standoffish approach, with his arms crossed and a frown on his face, shaking his head in disbelief, at what people have been saying about SGM. Where is this guys sense of loyalty to God and to His people? I’m not seeing it. And that I don’t undertand. I really don’t.


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    I don’t know the victims of abuse who have posted here personally but I want to offer a public statement of apology for the insensitivity of Tim Challies statement. I know it only adds salt to your wounds. In all of this I am certain that God is at work and has heard your cries, and it doesn’t matter that a man like that doesn’t care about you, or hasn’t shown the necessary and appropriate concern for the situation SGM finds itself in.

    We know we are telling the truth. And we are tired of these men manipulating the truth and attempting to define it for us. We are here to tell them what they should be thinking about all this, and if they choose not to listen — that is their problem. That is their fault.

    Man, this is really heating up.


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    “The fact he would attempt to silence people under the insinuation that our discussion of SGM is somehow lacking biblical merit is insulting at best.”

    I agree. Yet I can see it from Challies, who insults women by not allowing them to read scripture at his church.

    If it is so unbiblical to discuss this SGM scandal, why, oh why, did he even write a post about it? Isn’t he being unbiblical?

    (sarc on–since sarcasm is the only way I can deal with this article seething with fake (IMO) piety, while the victims cry out to deaf ears) I know he refused comments so there would be no discussion, but surely Challies has cause me to sin… since here I am– discussing SGM and on a blog-the horrors. Knowing the depravity that is ever present in every born again believer’s yet unchanged and wicked heart, surely Challies, being the discerner that he claims to be, should have known better and not have written this sin inducing article in the first place (which really was no article to begin with…just a re-hashing of what he said at the band of bloggers). (sarc off)


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    Diane wrote:

    All while putting the guilt on anyone who does not think the best of others at all times…or who would dare to NOT deliberately avoid learning “too much”-whatever that means.

    Funny how ‘thinking the best of others’ defaults to questioning the truthfulness of the allegations. Because assuming they are probably lying is loving thing to do here.


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    @ Caleb W:
    ‘He also says: “I have been careful to keep in mind Proverbs 18:17 which says, “The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.”’

    Abusive ministries are in love with this scripture. The implication is always that the “one who states his case first” is lying. In my opinion, this scripture needs to go the way of the word “bitter” when being used (overused) against victims of spiritual abuse. It is an attempt to cast aspersions on those speaking out. Shame on Challies for essentially calling the plaintiffs liars.


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    bazinga wrote:

    Summary of what he is saying: “SGM might be innocent…y’know, just like Jesus….and not all knowledge helps so just because there are facts available doesn’t give you the right to read them, know them, or form any opinion based on the facts.”

    Hmm, if people actually believe there is any value to this kind of guidance or advice towards embracing willful ignorance, then it becomes very easy for the rest of us to see how so many people get manipulated into following these self proclaimed leaders. I mean, who needs facts when you have a leader willing to go ahead and dictate your opinion to you based on their own.
    News flash: leaders often have ulterior motives, but facts never do.

    Good points. What people are complaining about doesn’t simply have to do with their injuries and personal pain, although that naturally is what people have experienced as a consequence of their SGM experience, myself included. But over and above all that is the realization we have come to that SGM does not represent Jesus Christ to people, and that has been the underlying source of all the problems. Their gospel is a distortion of the true gospel. Their Savior is a different Savior than our Savior. Their truth is something different than our truth. And that is what has gotten us all up in arms because we KNOW SGM is not innocent like Jesus, and to make tha comparison pretty much takes everything we’ve been saying and throws it under the bus because he is holding out the possibility that in all this, SGM is holy, innocent, pure as the driven snow – sinless like Jesus.

    Outrageous. Simply outrageous!

    Like hell they’re innocent.

    And I like how you ended your comment: “News flash: leaders often have ulterior motives, but facts never do.” That’s right! Bottom line: we already know the facts! Tim Challies doesnt want to pay attention to the facts, but it sure seems like he’s willing to pay attention to whatever CJ says. What gives? What is wrong with that man? He makes a living in communication. Is he missing a chip? He needs to STUDY and READ and PAY ATTENTION IN CLASS.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    BeenThere —

    (Snark alert!) I’m day dreaming that Challies was referring to the three man panel, that deemed CJ was fit for ministry within days of Detwiler’s papers being released, when he uses that scripture 🙂


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    WWCS merchandise soon to come!


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    @ BTDT:

    I always got the impression that it was SGM who had “stated their case first,” the status quo being what it is. Which frames that verse in a whole new light.

    My thoughts on that verse have always been: 1) it’s a proverb and thus is not supposed to be woodenly applied even if it is divinely inspired; and 2) it’s essentially an invitation to use your critical thinking skills and examine both sides. At best it says Party #2 raised questions about Party #1’s story/arguments. It certainly can’t be read to say “whoever speaks up first is always wrong.”


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    “Sovereign Grace Ministries says in a motion to dismiss the lawsuit that Maryland courts can’t get involved in the internal affairs of church business”

    Calvary Chapel lawyers pulled this one in a lawsuit in Arizona. They appealed to an “Ecclesiastical Hierarchical Structure” and appealed to the Doctrine of Ecclesiastical Abstention claiming they were their own authority and policed their own in these matters.

    …then when Calvary Chapel wanted to dodge liability in a Child Molestation Lawsuit in Idaho, they claimed they were “all independent” and that Chuck Smith and CC Mother Ship had no responsibility and no control and no authority over anyone.

    SGM is pulling the Ecclesiastical Abstention card…which may bite them. If they truly are responsible for “policing their own” and if they were negligent in doing such…can you say Catholic Church molestation-type lawsuits?


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    Clearly the Court does have a say in civil matters with regards to Church Orgs that have an Ecclesiastical Hierarchical Structure and practice some level of influence, control, etc etc over their churches and clergy…as exampled by the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church being sued and huge judgments being awarded by Courts and Juries across the nation.


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    Another thing, have people noticed all the emphasis Mahaney and Piper put on preaching? Mahaney says the time of preaching at his church SGCL is the most important time of the week. That’s it. THE most important time! It matters more than what people think. It matters more than public opinion. It matters more than loving and serving others. For CJ Mahaney, preaching from behind the pulpit is WHERE IT’S AT.

    Same with Piper. He makes this big announcement about becoming a World Apostle, and what is his emphasis? He’s going to go around and PREACH. That’s the deal. His preaching. That’s what the world needs – for him to preach to them. As if a message is going to fix things, make everything right, and solve problems.

    In my view it’s just his plan to travel and enjoy his retirement years. I think that’s what it really boils down to. And he’s asking you to help pay for it. Amazing. And he says he will be spending time reading, writing and studying as well. Maybe his sermons will be his souvenirs to everyone who ‘joins with him’ (gives him money) on his missionary journeys?

    And I’m sure this is Mahaney’s plan as well. To travel, travel, travel and take his canned messages and repeat them all over the place together with his wife. Because isn’t that what the Apostle Paul did? Spend time in his library, writing books, preparing sermons, and then deliver the same book and one-size-fits-all message to people in all the various churches he traveled to? No wonder these guys like taking the words Paul the Apostle wrote out of context, and turning them into one-size-fits-all instructions intended for every church, around the world, no matter what the situation is they dealing with.

    No wonder John Piper went to see CJ and speak at his church. He knows CJ wouldn’t question his retirement plan, but rather wants to follow in John’s footsteps!


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    Hester wrote:

    @ BTDT:
    I always got the impression that it was SGM who had “stated their case first,” the status quo being what it is. Which frames that verse in a whole new light.

    I see what you’re saying. Every time a complaint was lodged against my former church, Proverbs 18:17 preceded a very lengthy rebuttal. I’m so tired of churches that engage in scriptural gymnastics. It gives me a headache. They can seemingly get the letter of the law just right, and completely miss the spirit of it.


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    SGM Responds: “Take Dis Lawsuit And Shove It?”

    Ha, Ha, Ha,

    What?

    Telling the State of Maryland what they can and can not do?…their citizens getz burn’d  while C.J. fiddles?

    huh?

    do ya smell smoke?

    sniff, sniff…

    Is SGM is burning?

    hmmm…

    (da Ceege really shouldn’t play wit proverbial matches.)

    -snicker-

    Crack! Crack!

    …Court moves to dismiss any credibility SGM might have remaining…

    Sopy


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    Alex wrote:

    “Sovereign Grace Ministries says in a motion to dismiss the lawsuit that Maryland courts can’t get involved in the internal affairs of church business”

    Calvary Chapel lawyers pulled this one in a lawsuit in Arizona. They appealed to an “Ecclesiastical Hierarchical Structure” and appealed to the Doctrine of Ecclesiastical Abstention claiming they were their own authority and policed their own in these matters.

    …then when Calvary Chapel wanted to dodge liability in a Child Molestation Lawsuit in Idaho, they claimed they were “all independent” and that Chuck Smith and CC Mother Ship had no responsibility and no control and no authority over anyone.

    SGM is pulling the Ecclesiastical Abstention card…which may bite them. If they truly are responsible for “policing their own” and if they were negligent in doing such…can you say Catholic Church molestation-type lawsuits?

    Alex, I gotta question for you. Was Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith aware of this position of theirs all along, or was it something they came up with in response to their trouble with the law?

    I think what happens in matters like these is people discover they never had any voice, any power, any authority at all within their churches contrary to their understanding of how the Body of Christ is intended to function. But that all along the leadership of these churches knew the members were basically meaningless, and it all ends up coming out when they take a legal stance in response to member’s complaints such as you described.


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    @ Hester:
    And they never add verse 18, which suggests casting lots to settle disputes.


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    Alex wrote:

    …then when Calvary Chapel wanted to dodge liability in a Child Molestation Lawsuit in Idaho, they claimed they were “all independent” and that Chuck Smith and CC Mother Ship had no responsibility and no control and no authority over anyone.

    Do you have a reference for this? Just curious as a neighbor, who’s been to several CC’s here.
    BTW, Praying for you daily!


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    Dee, 

    Eagle says youze still handing out ‘free’ vomit bags 🙂

    hmmm…

    dis one is filled…can I have anodder?

    (grin)

    Sopy


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    Dave A A wrote:

    Alex wrote:

    …then when Calvary Chapel wanted to dodge liability in a Child Molestation Lawsuit in Idaho, they claimed they were “all independent” and that Chuck Smith and CC Mother Ship had no responsibility and no control and no authority over anyone.

    Do you have a reference for this? Just curious as a neighbor, who’s been to several CC’s here.
    BTW, Praying for you daily!

    Thanks for the prayers.

    Here are links to the two lawsuit situations I referenced above:

    Arizona lawsuit: http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1263

    Idaho molestation lawsuit: http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/larabee-et-al-v.-costa-mesa-et-al.pdf

    CC argued that Costa Mesa (Mother Ship) had nothing to do with other CC’s, even though CCOF is Chuck Smith’s (Chuck is “president” on IRS Docs and CCOF issue by agreement the rights to the CC Name and Likeness etc).

    The Judge in the Idaho Molestation lawsuit agreed with CC Costa Mesa’s attorneys in that case, while the judge in Arizona agreed with CC’s argument that CC polices its own and the court should stay out of their business. So which is it, CC?

    I call it the Amoeba Organizational Structure (or Lying). CC is whatever it wants to be depending on what they want to do, and they’ll lie to do it…often.


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    Evie wrote:

    Alex wrote:
    “Sovereign Grace Ministries says in a motion to dismiss the lawsuit that Maryland courts can’t get involved in the internal affairs of church business”
    Calvary Chapel lawyers pulled this one in a lawsuit in Arizona. They appealed to an “Ecclesiastical Hierarchical Structure” and appealed to the Doctrine of Ecclesiastical Abstention claiming they were their own authority and policed their own in these matters.
    …then when Calvary Chapel wanted to dodge liability in a Child Molestation Lawsuit in Idaho, they claimed they were “all independent” and that Chuck Smith and CC Mother Ship had no responsibility and no control and no authority over anyone.
    SGM is pulling the Ecclesiastical Abstention card…which may bite them. If they truly are responsible for “policing their own” and if they were negligent in doing such…can you say Catholic Church molestation-type lawsuits?

    Alex, I gotta question for you. Was Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith aware of this position of theirs all along, or was it something they came up with in response to their trouble with the law?
    I think what happens in matters like these is people discover they never had any voice, any power, any authority at all within their churches contrary to their understanding of how the Body of Christ is intended to function. But that all along the leadership of these churches knew the members were basically meaningless, and it all ends up coming out when they take a legal stance in response to member’s complaints such as you described.

    I think they were aware of it all along and will do whatever is necessary (even lying) to accomplish what they want to protect Chuck’s ass-ets.

    Yes, folks don’t find out how little to no say they have until the carpet is ripped out from under them.

    CC Pastor Jimmy Kempner of CC Beach Cities was arrested for prostitution solicitation a couple few years back. The church non-members freaked. A Group wanted him to step down, there was a Christian School Kempner owned/controlled that was part of the mix.

    In a nutshell, Kempner didn’t play nice, stacked the Board and it became apparent to the folks who paid for all the stuff…that Kempner owned it all (in essence, as he controlled it through his Board and I think the stuff was in a trust he controlled as well..I might be wrong on the trust part, but that is common in CC’s…the assets are often held in a trust that is controlled by the CC Pastor and/or family member and/or close friend.

    Basically, the folks who built that church and school through their monies…were out of luck. When push came shove, they had little to no say at all.


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    Here’s the LA Times on the CC Jimmy Kempner situation that shows the dynamic well…Beach Cities Calvary Chapel owned the school after buying it from another church group.

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/03/pastors-prostitution-arrest-imperils-a-costa-mesa-christian-school.html

    Kempner wasn’t going to give up the assets and parents didn’t want their kids at the school with the prostitution solicitation arrest etc.

    The property is worth a small fortune…


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    @ Alex:
    Thanks Alex! Wow! Pretty sure I’ve met the Idaho “Pastor Bob” but can’t quite place him….. We didn’t attend that CC, but easily could have, and would have been kept in the dark about the predator. With a daughter close in age to the boys, as well.


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    SGM’s * Apparent Methodical Modus Operandi (A.M.M.O):

    1. Make zero provision (or toleration) for any and all opposition.

    2. Demand absolute ‘biblical’ obedience.

    3. Demand the confession of private sin.

    4. Brand all who voice opposition with 
    “bitterness” and “disobedience”.

    5. Brand all loose-lipped opponents as “gossips”.

    6. Put the fear of ‘pursuit’ & ‘prosecution’ into all. Encourage Shunning of  all who demonstrate, or are seen to cultivate dissent.

    7. Make all dissenters believe there is no legal/constitutional appeal process. 

    8. Make ‘an appeal to public opinion’, an assault on private church business.

    9. Control the means for all pastoral education & training. 

    10. Plant a general mistrust in external political, civil, medical, and educational authorities.

    11. Plant a like-minded church in every prosperous metropolitan center.

    12. Make alliances with other  like-minded church ministries. 

    13. Repeat steps 1-12 until all opposition is effectively neutralized. 
    ___
    *  Apparent Methodical Modus Operandi [A.M.M.O.] is a Semi-Latin phrase, approximately translated as “apparent method of operation”. [1] This term is used to describe SGM’s observable & “Apparent Standard Method Of Operation”, or In English, it is often shortened to A. S.M.O.  [2] SGM’s apparent ‘subculture’ habits or manner of working, particularly in the context of conducting its day to day church non-profit business operations. 

    ;~)


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    Eagle wrote:

    With Tim Challis you have to remember he’s the mouthpiece for Neo-Reformed theology. He is the Joseph Goebbels for the Neo-Reformed movement.
    As Joseph Goebbels once said, “It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion.” For the Neo-Reformed crowd Tim Challis is the state.

    I remember three quotes from Reichsminister Goebbels:

    1) “A lie repeated often enough becomes the Truth.”

    2) “Effective Propaganda consists of Simplification and Repetition.”

    3) “Some have compared the Fuehrer to Jesus Christ. Christ cannot begin to compare to the glory of the Fuehrer!”


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    Role Reversal: “A Miscarriage Of Justice?”

    HowDee,

    hmmm…

    One must keep in mind (the important thing to rememba here) with SGM is -that The State Of Maryland is on the dock and The Honorable C.J. Mahaney is in the bench…

    What?

    Yeah, he is quite a kindly judge, you know…

    huh?

    Well…if The State Of Maryland should have a reasonable defense for bringing this petty little inconvenient class action suit he is ready to listen to it. 

    -snicker-

    Just think…the trial may even end in The State Of Maryland’s acquittal…

    What?

    For the modern SGM proverbial Pastoral man, the roles of justice are quite reversed, C.J. Mahaney is the judge: “Everyone Else” is in the dock…

    And they all stand “Accused” !?!

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    S“㋡”py