TWW Reflects on C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries

"Learning without reflection is a waste. Reflection without learning is dangerous.”

Confucius

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Emerald Isle Sunset (taken by Deb)

Today I have been reflecting on how The Wartburg Watch came into existence, and I'd like to regale our readers with a brief history.  Blogging became mainstream around 2004, and a couple of years after that Dee started joking with me about doing a blog together.  Because both of us are serious about our faith, we decided ours would be a faith watch blog. 

Several years went by and Dee and I were serving together on a community panel for our regional newspaper.  During one of our monthly meetings, Dee announced to the newspaper editors with whom we met that we were planning to start a faith watch blog.  I wasn't so sure it would ever happen.  In September 2008 we began seeing some red flags in the conservative corner of Christendom, and we started doing research on the internet. 

Because both of us were members of Southern Baptist churches, issues involving the SBC were of great interest.  An Oklahoma pastor named Wade Burleson had an extremely popular blog, and we began to follow it religiously.  We learned so much from reading there.  My very first blogging comments were left on Wade's blog, and it never occurred to me that I would ever get to know him.  

As we researched we kept coming across the names of those who label themselves as "New Calvinists".  We recognized some of names – Al Mohler, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, and Mark Dever – but we had never heard of C.J. Mahaney or Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM).  As we began to investigate Mahaney, we stumbled upon two blogs that caught our attention – SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge.  The more we read the posts and comments, the more concerned we became. 

After following those blogs closely for about four months, Dee and I learned that C.J. Mahaney was coming to Sovereign Grace Church in Apex.  We 'resolved' to go and hear him speak.  That was exactly four years ago today – January 25, 2009.  It was the only time we have ever heard Mahaney in person, and it was an experience we will never forget. 

For some time I had been sharing my concerns about Mahaney and SGM with my pastor; and after hearing C.J. in person, I decided to write an e-mail.  I sent it to my pastor a few hours after the visit to SGC Apex.  C.J. Mahaney was to return to our area in early February 2009 to address attendees of the 20/20 Conference geared toward college students.  Unbeknownst to me, he had spoken at SEBTS the year prior.  Not only was Mahaney speaking at this conference, but Mark Driscoll came as well.  I didn't know much about Driscoll at the time, but that would quickly change.

About a week ago I providentially came across my January 25, 2009 e-mail to my pastor, and I have decided to share it with our readers (see below).  Sadly, my family was soon compelled to withdraw from our church.  It was a difficult decision, and there was much pain involved.  Not long after that, TWW was launched.  

 

Pastor ________,

Darlene (Dee) and I went to hear "Mr. Humility" C.J. Mahaney in person at Sovereign Grace Church in Apex this morning.  His message was the closest thing to nothing I have ever heard!  These poor SGM people don't seem to have a clue about what they should be hearing from the pulpit.  The people we met were so kind to us, and that's what makes this situation so sad to me.  I look at them as victims of a religious "system" that borders on being a cult.  So many of the church members were young parents with LOTS of children.  The Associate Pastor looks very young, and he already has six kids!

The "bookstore" was the first thing we saw as we walked in the front entrance of the church.  It's front and center and located just outside the worship center.  The word "idolatry" did come to mind as I saw it.  Darlene and I took the time to survey the selection of books, and it was just as I suspected — C.J. and Carolyn Mahaney, Josh Harris, Mark Dever, Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Randy Alcorn, etc.  An alliance has been established between these individuals, and I truly believe they are more concerned about book sales than the gospel.  I know that sounds cynical, but I'm being completely honest.

Darlene and I received a free copy of C.J.'s book Humility while we were there.  It came out in 2005, and those who endorsed it are:  Mark Dever, Al Mohler, Randy Alcorn, John MacArthur, Wayne Grudem, J. Ligon Duncan, Jerry Bridgers, and Joshua Harris.  I have a theory regarding why these individuals are aligning themselves with C.J. Mahaney.

It was truly an experience I will never forget, and I now believe everything that is being written on SGM Survivors and other critical SGM websites.  I'm praying for eyes to be opened and for hearts to be discerning in this "family of churches".

Finally, I am DEEPLY concerned about the relationship that is being forged between the seminary (SEBTS) and Sovereign Grace Ministries.  In my ever to be humble opinion, it is MANY steps in the wrong direction.

Blessings,

Wanda

 

My husband and I have been blessed to find a sweet Southern Baptist congregation that is devoid of the hyper-authoritarian problems we discuss.  As someone who continues to identify as Southern Baptist, I am greatly concerned about the influence Mahaney and his ilk are having on my denomination!   Dee and I have made it our business to know what is going on in Christendom, and that's why we have been keeping our eye on Mahaney and SGM.  We find it absolutely incredible that Mahaney will be addressing students in chapel at SEBTS next Thursday (1/31) and that he will again be speaking at the 20/20 Conference.

What's different this time around is that Mahaney, Sovereign Grace Ministries, and other current and former SGM leaders have been named in a class action lawsuit.  As some of you are aware, Christianity Today featured an update on the lawsuit earlier today which explains why SGM's defense strategy involved the First Amendment will likely not work.  Here is how that CT article begins:

"In response to a civil lawsuit alleging that it covered up numerous cases of child sexual abuse, Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) has pledged to "carefully review" each accusation.

However, the lawsuit—which claims the association of Reformed church plants discouraged victims' parents from reporting abuse to authorities and had victims forgive their abusers in person—has also prompted the denomination to cite its First Amendment right to religious freedom.

Specifically, SGM has defended its freedom to provide confidential pastoral counseling free of government infringement.

"SGM believes that allowing courts to second-guess pastoral guidance would represent a blow to the First Amendment that would hinder, not help, families seeking spiritual direction among other resources in dealing with the trauma related to any sin including child sexual abuse," Tommy Hill, SGM's director of administration, said in a November 14 statement.

Such a stance strikes some legal observers as more of a smokescreen than a legitimate defense."

 

And for your weekend reading pleasure…

It may interest you to know that C.J. Mahaney has some strong words about lying, which are incorporated into the January 23, 2012 Mahaney Sports Talk blog post.

Lance Armstrong and Lying Lips

We now understand why there is a “no comment” policy over at on the "boy talk" blog.  However, you can 'like' or 'share' the post.  We’d love to hear your thoughts.

Much has changed since we first started blogging almost four years ago, but we can assure you that we continue to be passionate about helping those who have been victimized by spiritual leaders who should be protecting, not harming, them.  Please join with us in praying for those who are hurting.

Lydia's Corner:   Deuteronomy 7:1-8:20    Luke 7:36-8:3    Psalm 69:1-18    Proverbs 12:1

 

Comments

TWW Reflects on C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries — 438 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    You ladies rock and are doing a great job watching this whole SGM story as it continues to unfold.

    As for the Mahaney Boytalk blog, they’re too scared to take comments. Should be called the Littleboy Talk blog 😛


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    Two phrases have really affected me today. The first is from R.C. Sproul, Jr.:

    “Birth control, like abortion, is sexual bulimia” – – yea, I know, it got my dander up. Blech!

    And the 2nd is this one from Deb (above) in the e-mail to her pastor referencing CJ’s message: “His message was the closest thing to nothing I have ever heard!”

    Deb!!! I cannot stop laughing. That is hilarious! – the closest thing to nothing – hahaha.


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    Deb, It is incredible to think of what God has done through you and Dee in these few years since you responded to the prompting of the Holy Spirit and started TWW 🙂

    When sexist, authoritarian church leaders seem to be untouchable with their toxic teaching spreading and abuses of all kinds being covered up, God intervened by raising up two ordinary, but wonderful women to turn the tide! Priceless!


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    I can't begin to get my head around the amount of work and care and intense emotion you two have put into this blog, creating a safe place for truth tellers and the victims of abusive churches, but, for a time such as this, God has raised you up. May He bless you and sustain you in all that you do.


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    A big thank you to Deb & Dee for all that you do.

    I'm curious – do you have laptops in your kitchens? (no assumptions that you cook in the household or anything, just asking in case you do on occasion!)

    I don't know where you find the time or how you organise yourselves in order to manage such a prolific blog. But you do, and here we are, and I'm grateful.

    Deb – the picture at the top of the page is beautiful.

    Julie Anne – that Sproul quote – ugh – is the weirdest, sickest, unenlightened, disrespectful of women …etc. If he was 'somebody' the quote would go down in history (like some from old fuddy duddy judges here about two decades ago – time doesn't move fast does it?) but he's not, so fortunately the words will keep moving along the sewer where they belong.


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    Does the Junior Sproul ever say anything that doesn’t produce a shudder response? He is just so extreme.


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    Haitch said,

    “I’m curious – do you have laptops in your kitchens? (no assumptions that you cook in the household or anything, just asking in case you do on occasion!) ”

    Haitch,

    LOL!  Yes, we both have laptops.  I couldn’t live without my Mac, and yes, I’m the chief cook and bottle washer in my household. 

    The picture was taken last summer on the North Carolina coast.  I’m longing for warm weather because we have just been blanketed with a sheet of ice.  Brrrr!!!

     


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    Eagle,

    Are you referring to Dee’s church?  She and I have never been members of the same church.  Perhaps that’s a good thing.  😉

    Your comment was spot on.  Silence is what allows spiritual abuse to continue. 

    I was so touched by your words for the victims and your plea for forgiveness. 

     


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    Lynne T,

    Thank you for your kind comment.  Blogging has been an incredible and often painful experience. 

    When we started TWW, we had no idea what would happen. I remember the day when we received our first comment, and we were thrilled that someone was reading.  Now we have friends like you around the world.

    We are so grateful that we can help victims have a voice. 


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    Julie Anne,

    Glad I made you laugh.  My former pastor, a Bible scholar, did expository preaching week after week.  Listening to Mahaney’s message was such a contrast from what I was accustomed to. 

    What really cracks me up is that Mark Dever brought his 9 Marks dog and pony show to SEBTS in the fall of 2009, and Mahaney was one of the speakers at that event.  Mahaney’s talk was Expository Faithfulness.  What a joke!


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    Evie,

    Thank you for your kind words.  You are such a blessing!


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    @ Julie Anne:

    “Birth control, like abortion, is sexual bulimia”

    So lemme get this straight:

    1. Sproul is pro-life so he wants to prevent as many needless fetal deaths as possible.
    2. Birth control, when used properly, (usually) prevents unwanted pregnancy.
    3. Therefore Sproul is against birth control and education about it.

    Methinks Quiverfull is the real agenda here, NOT ending/reducing abortion. If he really wanted to end/reduce abortion he would be pro-birth control. The above (faulty) syllogism proves that what he really wants is as much population growth as possible. I assume all the non-Christian children who are given up instead of aborted will be adopted by Reconstructionist families?

    But then again, this is Sproul Jr. so I should have expected as much. In his book about “covenant homeschooling” he said it was okay for a 9-year-old girl to be illiterate as long as she was diligently helping her mother with housework. (If you’re looking to research patriarchal homeschooling, BTW, that book would be a great frightening starting point.)


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    Trying to picture a universe in which Dee & Deb do NOT know about Mahaney and SGM is kind of a surreal exercise… ; )


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    “…consent is given to sinners by counseling, defending, helping, permitting what we might hinder, and being silent when we might profitably speak, Rom. 1:32.”
    -William Ames


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    Hester,

    I have a hard time picturing that myself now.  The Mahaneys have affected a lot of lives.


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    Lynne T, Haitch and other Aussies present,

    Happy Australia Day to you all!


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    Estelle,

    Thanks for letting us know about Australia Day.

    I just learned something new.  🙂

     


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    Deb,

    This is a terrific post. It was interesting to read the history of TWW and your discovery of CJ Mahaney’s and SGM’s abuses, lies, and cover-ups. Thank you and Dee for continuing to call out Mahaney and SGM. I’m grateful for your voice of truth and victim advocacy.

    I, too, am disturbed by Mahaney’s regular presence at SEBTS. Why do you think he is invited to speak so often at SEBTS in particular? Even if the 20/20 collegiate conference was planned three years ago, why would they not cancel his appearance in light of this class action lawsuit?

    In an earlier TWW post, I mentioned that SEBTS is aggressively promoting the conference on social media (and elsewhere, no doubt). Last week, I commented on the conference link on SEBTS’s facebook page. My comment was deleted within a half hour or so. When I discovered it had been deleted, I posted another similar comment, and it was deleted within a minute or two. Apparently, they put someone on constant facebook surveillance. I am now banned from the page. I wonder if it would do any good to write SEBTS and express our repulsion at their decision to keep him on the itinerary?


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    1st Amendment: Pastors can protect abusers, molesters and rapists.

    Yeah. That ought to go over real well outside the Christendom Reformed bubble.


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    Wendy,

    Daniel Akin is a board member for the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and has been and continues to be a CBMW council member.  Akin came to SEBTS from SBTS, and he and Al Mohler are very close friends.  That’s where his loyalties lie; however, I can’t help but wonder if he is beginning to feel conflicted over Mahaney. 

    I sincerely believe that in the years to come Akin will realize the tragic mistake he has made. 

     

     


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    Eagle

    My former church became former when they deeply mishandled a really, really bad pedophile situation. The extreme abuse caused by the pedophile is amongst the worst I have heard. I already had problems with their overbearing view on young earth creationism – the kids were taught about it every year for 6 looooonnnng weeks. So, if your kid went to that church for 12 years, they would have been taught Ken Ham’s lousy science for 72 weeks! Two years of life wasted in Sunday school. Torture, pure torture. Then they started pushing young marriages. The pedophile thing was the last straw.

    After confronting the situation, very loudly, we left. I will never forget the day the church sent out a letter about us, basically saying we were terrible people. One of our friends happened to have the entire email list of the congregation and we sent out our response which, in my opinion, was a brilliant move. Totally freaked out the pastors. You should have heard what they said when we started this blog! They even had people come forward to kneel at the altar to repent for having hatred towards us! I was rolling on the floor, laughing at the pure silliness.

    That church, once the leading evangelical church in our area with about 3000 members, has lost approximately half of the congregation and has experienced setbacks as well in the moral lives of a couple of leaders, including a former bigwig at SEBTS. This guy, by the way, called me ‘bitter’ amongst other things. Little did we know what was going on his life! Totally bizarre.

    The young man whose story we have shared here told us he thought something was terribly wrong with that elder. This young man was accused of being unbalanced when he first reported a bad situation one year before the pedophile was caught – not by the church but by the police. This young man had more spiritual sensitivity than the entire lot of preening elders and pastors.


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    Wendy,

    I listen to the Truth radio network (1030 am) in my area, and I have been hearing promo spots for the 20/20 Conference ad nauseam for a couple of weeks now.   Thanks for letting us know that your comments are being deleted and that you have been banned.  What are these manly men so afraid of?

     


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    I really don’t understand where the anti-birth-control people are coming from. How can birth control be linked with abortion? I don’t believe multiplying the church through physical births was a commandment to the NT church, but rather through spiritual rebirth?

    One other Calvinist source has also found fault with his theology, and reading this article http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/09/taking-calvinism-too-far-rc-sproul-jr%E2%80%99s-evil-creating-deity/ you may also be somewhat taken aback by RCSJ’s position on the origin of sin.@ Julie Anne:


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    To add to Deb’s “observation” at that SGM church

    They had a strange section in the bulletin which reminded all the people under “discipline” that they were not allowed to take communion. This was in the bulletin which means it must have affected more than one or two. I have a rule, if I hear about discipline in an initial conversation about a church or I read something like this in the bulletin, I know there is a serious problem. I would not join such a church or even attend. I highly recommend that our readers take a similar stance.

    The people were kind to us but so many of them seemed to be depressed or down. Even the smiles seemed like effort on their parts. I saw three women wearing veils in the service which startled me. It is certainly their right to wear them but I wonder what their view is on the theology of gender. It made me sad. And, for those lurking, I don’t care what you say about it. I SAW 3 women wearing veils.

    The only good thing of the morning was they did not insist on writing down our names and addresses and did not try to contact us. Most likely it was because we were two women without our more important husbands.

    As for CJ’s sermon, I thought I was listening to a man who was juiced up. He frankly made me a little nervous, jumping around and using exuberant hand gestures which were inappropriate to the venue. I do not know why people grovel at his feet.


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    Wendy

    They have blocked you using your IP address and/or name. Yes, it is worth it to write. The more they know people are watching the more pressure they will feel to deal with it. Frankly, any of the conference organizers should look themselves in the mirror and figure out why they have turned into cowards. They do not appear to care for ministries that handle child sexual abuse in a godly manner. Shame on all of them.


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    Dee,

    Here’s what left a lasting impression on me at SGC Apex:

    The prophecy mic

    The announcement about an upcoming “water” baptism (what other kind is there? 🙂 )

    CJ saying exuberantly that his marriage is S-I-Z-Z-L-I-N-G!!!

    Mahaney licking his wounds after attending the Duke-Maryland game the day before in Durham.  Maryland got slaughtered!  (Sadly, Duke just suffered the same fate against Miami).  He talked about that game for the first 20 minutes of his sermon.  Instead of posting that sermon online, they substituted it with another one of Mahaney’s canned talks.

    The parents of teens explaining how their youth program works.  The parents are ALWAYS involved with their own kids. 

    The cash register in the bookstore, just outside the worship center door.  I should have taken a photo.  Oh well…

     


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    Dee,

    It is noteworthy that the pedophile you mentioned was a seminary student at SEBTS.  After the arrest, they dropped him like a hot potato. He was admitted to the seminary while Patterson was president, but Akin had been installed before the pedophile finally got caught.


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    This guy, by the way, called me ‘bitter’ amongst other things.” Yep, we are bitter, judgmental and unforgiving. This is the card that these narcissists (and their minions) pull on people who expose the truth and expect you to go along with their warped perception of reality.


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    Stormy

    Yeah, on the “bitter” part there is interesting background.  They set up an “investigative” team and said former SEBTS honcho and now dubious individual who deserted his wife told us to talk to one of the members who was an “expert” public attorney involved in convicting child abuse offenders. Old Dee and Deb have been around the block a few times and looked into the matter. Said attorney was now a criminal defense attorney. Naughty, naughty.

    The Catholic church, early on, established “hotlines for those who were abused by priests. Lawyers manned the hotlines, looking for ways to defend against what was coming. Those poor, abused people were talking to defense attorneys for the church! 

    So, I wrote to said “dubious” seminary honcho and said “What the heck are you guys doing?” He wrote me back and said I was to “trust” them and I was not to be “bitter.”

    I responded that I did not trust them after they tried to slip a defense attorney past us. Then I said that of course I was “bitter.” They just tried to pull a fast one. But bitter quickly turned into plumb mad. Said attorney tried to meet with me but I refused. If it wasn’t so tragic it would be worthy of a “How many pastors does it take to turn a light bulb” joke.


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    Stormy

    Oh yeah the answer to the pastor/lightbulb joke?

    None. God has predestined when the light will be on. Calvinists do not change light bulbs. They simply read the instructions and pray the light bulb will be one that has been chosen to be changed.


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    When they call you bitter, never defend. That is what they expwct and the convo becomes about YOU instead of the charlatan. Instead, laugh. Say congradulations! You have just played ONE of the “cultish censoring tactic”, cards, without realizing it.

    Debra Baker had it right in her blog post on the use of “bitter”. For so many guys, it is a knee jerk, non thinking reaction to shut down the convo. It keeps them from having to think. It is a way of shooting the messenger.


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    Dee & Deb –

    Who were the pastors at Apex at the time? (Curious minds)

    The names of those under church discipline in the bulletin? I thought church discipline happened when a situation was to the point of telling a member to not attend until they had repented? I also thought that this was something that was decided by the congregation (church) not just elders. If it was, then everyone would know and there would be no need for names in bulletins. (And this would have to be very serious unrepentant, blatant sin, nothing subjective to the whim of any elder/elders).


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    Deb

    What about the weird one this past year in which a student sexually abused his sleeping roommate? That hit the papers around here. Perhaps they feel they must be nice to all their buddies who have some dubious things in their churches?


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    “The Catholic church, early on, established “hotlines for those who were abused by priests. Lawyers manned the hotlines, looking for ways to defend against what was coming. Those poor, abused people were talking to defense attorneys for the church!”

    Can you say, “Institutionalized Deception”?

    Same for the SEBTS guy who tried the same trick.


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    Stormy wrote:

    This guy, by the way, called me ‘bitter’ amongst other things.” Yep, we are bitter, judgmental and unforgiving. This is the card that these narcissists (and their minions) pull on people who expose the truth and expect you to go along with their warped perception of reality.

    OT: An online friend of mine has a blog dealing with emotional abuse in relationships (she is a survivor of emotional abuse.) After I commented on her blog, her ex-husband (whom I was acquainted with in high school) e-mailed me and, among other things, called her blog “a well-written fantasy” by a person who was “bitter, angry, and unable to move on with her life.”

    What is interesting is that my online friend has just completed a degree in health care administration and has moved to an area where she can put her education to work. Quite an accomplishment for a “bitter” woman who is “unable to move on”.


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    “What about the weird one this past year in which a student sexually abused his sleeping roommate? That hit the papers around here.”

    Perhaps there was not as much protection since he was a well known and quite vocal, “Arminian”?


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    Kolya

    I will discuss this next week so long as SGM can go a week or two without more people being added to the lawsuit.

    I will discuss the ins and outs of this debate. But, the bottom line is this. They believe that there is a slim possibility that the pill can cause a fertilized embryo from implanting. There is so much controversy surrounding this. Also, there is no easy way to accurately measure such a happenstance. Again I will discuss this. So, in my opinion, here I go blowing my post ahead of time, they say do not use it because it might happen. My retort?  Don’t drive your car. You have a higher risk of killing somebody.


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    The senior pastor is the same.  I can’t remember the others.


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    Well of course they claim that people are not “moving on” and are bitter. What other defense do they have to distract attention from their deceptive behavior?


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    Dee,

    I had forgotten about that guy.  Remember how we used to stand up for Akin and SEBTS when we served on the community panel and they sometimes got bad press in the N&O?


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    Hester

    If that was the case, we would be sitting around figuring out what to do with our increasing empty nest.

    “Trying to picture a universe in which Dee & Deb do NOT know about Mahaney and SGM is kind of a surreal exercise”


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    Dee,

    Let’s see…  What would we be doing if we weren’t blogging?  I can’t even imagine. 


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    @ Hester:

    Hester, You nailed it – he’s pushing his agenda. I did some more digging and found he is connected with a movie about birth control and funny thing, all the people connected with this documentary are people in the homeschool movement (full-quiver, Patriarchal, courtship, family-integrated churches, etc). Go figure.

    I actually engaged him on that tweet, then noticed my daughter, Hannah did as well. He responded to her, so I’ve joined in their conversation
    https://twitter.com/rcsprouljr/status/294818795913109505


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    anon1

    Anyone who thinks the First Amendment should be used in this situation is not fit to be a pastor. They plan to use it to shield themselves from answering to the charges. It will not work. The First Amendment exists to give us freedom of speech.

    These guys do not believe in it to begin with. See how they have spoken out against the blogs. The only ones to have such freedom, in their world, is pastors who seem to float above the fray with impunity.


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    MM

    We still have a hard time believing anyone is interested in what we have to say. I mean it. I thought we might find a small cadre of 25-50 people with whom to have a conversation. 


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    Julie Anne

    On the “spiritual bulimia issue” 

    He makes me want to throw up!


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    “called her blog a “well-written fantasy.” Projection much… These type of people are so predictable. You’d think that they would come up with something different by now.


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    RC Sproul, Jr. Right. Here is the guy who was defrocked by his denomination for tax number fraud. Then Doug Wilson opens his arms to him at CREC. Anyone ever read his online book? I think it was taken down during the Ligoneir financial scandal. In the book, he calls the wealthy woman who originally funded Ligoneir (which supported his family), a “white witch”.

    This is also the guy who wrote on his blog that woman who were on the internet while their husbands were at work, were being suckered by Lotharios. He also did a bit of blogging about women who “let themselves go” during marriage. Ever seen him?

    The guy has arrested development. We see this a lot with celeb pastors sons. Just google him. Back in 06 or 07 there was a lot of scandal around Ligoneir and Sproul, Jr. In fact, right after he was officially defrocked, daddy had him speaking at one of his conferences. See how that works?


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    LOL, the predestined light bulb.


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    “Anyone who thinks the First Amendment should be used in this situation is not fit to be a pastor. They plan to use it to shield themselves from answering to the charges. It will not work. The First Amendment exists to give us freedom of speech.”

    Yeah, but pro-offering this sort of defense puts the REformed big dogs in a bit of a conundrum, does it not? Surely they do not want to admit affinity with that sort of thinking? Wouldn’t it make their position too obvious? Such as “Christians are above the law” or even above the basic moral standards our society have agreed upon concerning the protection of children?

    Either they are really more deluded than I thought or they are not thinking this one through. Just from a pragmatic POV, they should be ditching Mahaney for that defense alone. I know they don’t care about the victims. Perhaps they are not as diabolically smart as I thought.


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    “the guy has arrested development.” This is typical with the pathological narcissist. They never grew up mentally and you cannot reason with them on a mature level. It’s like you are dealing with a child.


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    @ Eagle:

    Eagle: I have gone to two myself and it was interesting for lack of a better word. The second one I went to the pastor knew my name before I knew his. Interesting, huh?

    Dee/Deb: you both pump out blog posts at an amazing rate. “Blogger” is such an understatement for what you do. Thank you for working so hard to educate and bring healing to the masses. We need you and are thankful for you.


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    @ dee:

    Dee. Seriously. (Sorry, I hang around a lot of teens and pick up their lingo.) This morning as I was reading through your comments – both yours and Deb’s, I was thoroughly enjoying each one – – – yes, each one – – -and I thought to myself: I love how they both write and their personalities. You guys are great. You make me laugh, make me cry, make me angry enough to rant on my own blog. Thank you for this TWW and I’m very thankful for you both reaching out to me during my very dark days.

    It also occurred to me that you both were reading SGMSurvivors the same time I was reading and posting there. I wrote about my former church experience and also HOFCC/Gregg Harris over there, but under pseudonym.


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    “They never grew up mentaly and you cannot reason with them on a mature level. It’s like you are dealing with a child.”

    And emotionally. Now, how wise is it to hand over power and money to a child? And that is exactly what has been done in so many Christian venues. It is as if the lure of celeb pastoring attracts that type. Where else can you get a stage and followers so easily?


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    anon1

    This one will go down in modern evangelcial history as evidence that these guys care more about the authoity of pastors than the abuse of little children. They claim to be “against” child sexual abuse. I have news for them. Even the most hardened criminals in Rikers are against child sexual abuse. That is why they must separate these offenders from the rest of the population or they would not survive. So, these guys are merely aligning themselves with 99.9% of the world which is against this. Such courage has never been seen!

    So, if they are really, really concerned about child sexual abuse, then they show how quickly they ignore it which then raises the question that Eagle asked. “Where is their discernment?” I add, where is their compassio?. They seem to show more compassion to CJ then these abused people. So, I am back to my initial thought.

    When confronted with the SGM lawsuit, they stand behind CJ Mahaney and conduct business as usual, even deleting comments on conference websites that raise the issue.Such an action again shows they are aligning themselves against the victims.

    They have chosen CJ and gang over the victims, plain and simple. Jesus, on the other hand, always reached out to the vicitms. Shame on those who do not do the same.


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    Wendy,
    I would venture a guess that the reason Mahaney is allowed to speak so often at SEBTS is that he donated $250,000 of SGM’s funds and $100,000 of his own money to Mohler’s seminary. Funny how that works in both religion and politics.

    “…consent is given to sinners by counseling, defending, helping, permitting what we might hinder, and being silent when we might profitably speak, Rom. 1:32.”
    -William Ames


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    Julie Anne,

    Yes, those were dark days for you last year.  We are so grateful for how you are using your gifts on the internet. 

    When I began reading SGM Survivors I used my real name to post a comment.  I wasn’t a frequent commenter, but I did chime in from time to time. 


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    Bridget wrote:

    I thought church discipline happened when a situation was to the point of telling a member to not attend until they had repented? I also thought that this was something that was decided by the congregation (church) not just elders. If it was, then everyone would know and there would be no need for names in bulletins.

    Well, that’s not how it worked at the SGM church in Charlotte. People who were excommunicated weren’t banned from attending services. They just were to be treated as unbelievers and were to be appealed to to repent. Of course, no one in their right mind would go to a church service under those conditions. Well, actually, I do recall one person who came back a few times after being excommunicated. I didn’t really have a relationship with her, so I didn’t talk to her. But I thought it was odd that she would attend. And, no, in SGM, the congregation has no say in who is excommunicated. The pastors make the decision and then announces it to the whole church. So, yeah, people would know who they are. But geez, publishing the names in the bulletin? Reminds me of Hester Prynne and her scarlet “A”.


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    Great point, TW!  Money talks…


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    One reason they may not ditch Mahaney is that the web is too tangled. From conference gigs, book blurbs, T4G, SBTS/SEBTS vague ministry partnerships, donated money, etc. The embarassment factor might be there so they might try to quietly over time extracate themselves but then Mahaney has all the above in his back pocket to proclaim from the internet.

    Keep in mind, guys like Akin and Mohler are EMPLOYEES. At some point, they answer to a much larger group who fund them. yes, I know the trustees are stacked with yes men. But the flow of money in the SBC is the real accountability. As more and more churches and even states designate away from them, it could become a real issue for them. Right now they are dining out on their past gravitas and current followers. But as it gets out more and becomes common knowledge with the pew sitters, the association could prove a problem for them.


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    @ Moniker:

    It seems like they had the process backwards. They should have been appealing beforehand, widening the circle, getting more people involved over a long period of time, doing everything possible to bring resolution. But in the SGM world everything is handled behind closed doors, by a few elders . . . no witnesses, no other perspectives, no congregational knowledge. No one is allowed to help bring discernment, repentance, or reconciliation except a few elders. It’s clear that they do not value the members of the body.


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    “Oh yeah the answer to the pastor/lightbulb joke?

    None. God has predestined when the light will be on. Calvinists do not change light bulbs. They simply read the instructions and pray the light bulb will be one that has been chosen to be changed.”

    THAT was funnylicious.


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    “He makes me want to throw up!”

    X 1000.


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    “RC Sproul, Jr. Right. Here is the guy who was defrocked by his denomination for tax number fraud. Then Doug Wilson opens his arms to him at CREC. Anyone ever read his online book? I think it was taken down during the Ligoneir financial scandal. In the book, he calls the wealthy woman who originally funded Ligoneir (which supported his family), a “white witch”.”

    I was able to read parts of it last year. I think several chapters are still available online.


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    @ Bridget:
    The care group leader and possibly the other care group members would have known about it early on and made appeals, but then if the person didn’t repent, the pastors would make the decision to excommunicate. But in typical SGM fashion, only those who were “part of the problem or part of the solution” would be privy to any of what was going on. Even after the bombshell announcement at the members only meeting, you didn’t talk about it. It was always “If you have any questions or concerns, please come to one of us pastors and don’t talk about it among yourselves.” And most people complied.


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    @ Eagle:
    What Eagle said.


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    Dee said~

    “Such an action again shows they are aligning themselves against the victims.”

    Time to bring out Ligon’s quote, as Dee’s comment is a perfect segue…(the quote, btw, that can no longer be found at Reformation21…why, I ask?).

    “I would then encourage you to ignore the assaults of wounded people on attack websites and blogs, and that you discount the opinings of those who have no real knowledge of these matters or relation to SGM or authority to comment upon them, and that you refrain from assuming that you (or they) are in a position to render judgment on these things.”

    (Quote courtesy of Paul’s Passing Thoughts because, as I mentioned before, it seems to have disappeared from the Reformation21 blog where it was proudly posted for the last year.)


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    @ thatmom:
    “militant fecundity”
    What an apt description of the movement. Love it!


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    @ thatmom:
    Oh, God. Just lost all humor.


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    @ Eagle: You are SO right about both Christianity Today *and* our need for Watergate-style (or Pentagon Papers-style) reporting!

    The thing is, there are people who are doing this, but they’re on the margins (at best) or the worlds they report on, so nobody much is listening…


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    TW

    Are you implying that CJ’s donation was a quid pro quo? 🙂 Did you know that the rank and file members were never apprised of this?


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    anon 1 wrote:

    “The Catholic church, early on, established “hotlines for those who were abused by priests. Lawyers manned the hotlines, looking for ways to defend against what was coming. Those poor, abused people were talking to defense attorneys for the church!”
    Can you say, “Institutionalized Deception”?
    Same for the SEBTS guy who tried the same trick.

    That is exactly what I was thinking back when so many commenters at SGMsurvivors were pushing reluctant victims of SGM to go to Covenant Life Church and tell their experience to Ambassadors Of Reconciliation (AoR).


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    thatmom

    I will be covering this issue next week if the SGM leaders can manage to stay out of trouble.


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    Moniker

    I would have been excommunicated immediately. I have a hard time complying on “keeping quiet” mandates.


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    Diane

    Ligon Duncan is one more person who agrees with hardened criminals in Riker that child sex abuse is bad. But, when it comes to one of his own, the victims are thrown under the bus. Talk about a guy who does not know what is going on.


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    @ TW:

    Spot on, TW!

    Last weekend we had a little side discussion about Brent Detweiler’s role in building SGM and his current commentary on his blog, which struck some as cognitive dissonance at best. I was glad to see a discussion of this on SGM Survivors today.

    As for R.C. Sproul, Jr.?

    He is a small, misogynistic man who worships a tiny evil god who is the author of sin. His quote on birth control jibes with Doug Phillips’ sick teaching that emergency surgery to save a woman with an ectopic pregnancy is abortion.


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    Deb you wrote,

    As someone who continues to identify as Southern Baptist, I am greatly concerned about the influence Mahaney and his ilk are having on my denomination!   Dee and I have made it our business to know what is going on in Christendom, and that’s why we have been keeping our eye on Mahaney and SGM.  We find it absolutely incredible that Mahaney will be addressing students in chapel at SEBTS next Thursday (1/31) and that he will again be speaking at the 20/20 Conference.>


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    Rafiki,

    Agreed!  You do know that R.C. Sproul, Jr. and Doug Phillips are close friends, don’t you?  I have done quite a bit of research on both of them.


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    Dee sad:

    “I have a hard time complying on “keeping quiet” mandates.”

    Dee,

    You can say that again. What an understatement! 😉


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    @ Deb:

    Deb, I figured Junior was likely aligned with VF, doesn’t surprise me that they have a Mutual Appreciation Society, because … they are warped.


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    @ thatmom:

    Karen, that is exactly what I discovered yesterday and what my current blog post is about. He had an agenda with that tweet. It all makes sense now.


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    @ thatmom: On the first page of that site they have "Patriarch in Training" and "Patriarch" decals . . . 🙁 speechless!


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    http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,113601,page=12

    About Relocating to Louisville:

    If you are to resign as President of SGM (according to your statement), why did SGM move to Louisville when you are planting a church there? Is your church in Louisville the base church for SGM instead of CLC or some other SGM church?

    On April 19th 2012, there was a letter posted on the Sovereign Grace Ministries web site explaining the Board’s decision to relocate the Pastor’s College to Louisville. On this letter it was stated that it was the Board’s decision to do so after a vote at the first retreat the board had together. Who set up such a big decision to be made in light of the lack of time that the board had been together and able to prayerfully and wisely consider all the options and implications of such a move?

    On February 27th 2012, the interim board sent out a letter outlining four priorities for the new board, none of these priorities called for a decision on a move to Louisville. What would cause the new board to put aside their priorities as stated by this letter and engage on a vote to relocate Sovereign Grace Ministries to another city? Who made that call and when was it made?

    The vote to move Sovereign Grace Ministries to Louisville took place on the board’s retreat April 9th-10th yet nothing was communicated to the SGM pastors until a letter was posted on the web site April 19th. Many pastors who don’t regularly check the web site didn’t even find out till days after. Why was this move communicated to pastors and leaders outside SGM prior to the pastors of SGM?

    Why were so many details of the move to Louisville discussed and acted upon prior to the board’s inception and most importantly prior to the vote (i.e. talks with Southern Theological Seminar, homes being listed for sale, etc…)?

    Do you think that the decision to make a major ministry change – moving to Louisville – was appropriate for the new board’s first official meeting? Was this vote anything but a token procedure? How could it (the vote by the new board) be taken as a serious consideration when several SGM staffers had already placed their houses on the market for sale?

    Sorry I initially posted Deb’s quote before adding my comment by accidentally hitting post comment. My apology.

    I read the above list of questions Florida SGM Pastors had for CJ Mahaney from a meeting that was scheduled for May 25, 2012. I have no idea if CJ responded to or fielded the questions, or if the meeting took place.

    CJ went ahead with his plans to plant a church in Louisville, KY and relocate SGM headquarters there without paying any attention to what anyone in CLC or SGM at large thought about it as the questions reveal. But it would appear Al Mohler knew about CJ’s plans. Has he ever raised any questions in regards to CJ’s relocation? This just all has the feeling now of Mohler providing refuge to a fugitive.

    Mohler should lose his job. I think he should be removed as President of the SBTS. His support of CJ and what CJ has done within and to SGM is indefensible. The only defense Mohler can claim is ignorance, that he too was deceived by Mahaney. But at this point, there is plenty of evidence Mohler has available. He cannot use the excuse of saying what’s available online is gossip and slander and therefore not worthy of his attention. Surely that’s Mahaney’s stance. If he wants to stick his head in the sand, fine. But I think, at this point, a move like that shows a willful disregard for the truth, especially when he is inviting Mahaney to campus to impress himself favorably, with Mohler’s blessing, upon the minds of young people. It’s irresponsible and reprehensible.

    Visit the website and scroll down to read the entire list of questions. They stand as a clear indictment, with each question carrying a legitimate charge of dishonesty and misconduct!


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    @ dee:

    Thinking about Wendy’s getting her IP address blocked, and TWW’s excellent section “My Comment Was Deleted” and also thinking about a concerted effort to email these various conference groups, politely but firmly questioning their decision to keep Ceej in their respective line-ups of Godly Biblical All Stars (TM).

    Now bear with me, y’all, because this might be a random way to make a point, but here goes:

    Back in December of 2008 or 2009, a group of passionate folks threw a monkey wrench into the venerable old U.K. tradition of the “Christmas No. 1” hit single on the pop music charts.

    Basically, it’s a marketing scheme whereby a popular vote is held to determine that year’s number one most popular Christmas song. And most years the major record labels go all out to win the title for their preferred artist.

    Well, it seems like for several years the winner of the U.K. “X Factor” TV show was winning the coveted Christmas No. 1, leading to a backlash at this blatent commercialism.

    So (and frankly this cracks me up, being the unrepentent metal head that I am) U.K. fans of the 90’s metal band Rage Against the Machine, known for their outspoken progressivism, flooded the voting in favor of Rage’s anthemic (but f-bomb laden, so not for the sensitive) song “Killing In the Name.” And guess what? It won! Yes, the U.K.’s No. 1 Christmas song was a decade-old, radically anti-capitalist manifesto (set to some killer riffs, IMHO). 🙂

    My point is, if a determined bunch of folks could mess with the entire multi-billion dollar U.K. music industry to make a point about Christmas commercialism (and get a lot of press for it!), then those of us who feel so strongly about this very serious serious SGM issue need to get emailing, tweeting and posting comments EVERYWHERE about the “ministries” that continue to promote Ceej.

    They can’t block and delete a FLOOD.

    Deb and Dee, I am so glad you’ve posted links to these conferences. I think they need to get “love bombed” with emails from concerned Christians asking about their silence (“nothing to see here, these are not the ‘droids you’re looking for”) and continued promotion of Mahaney in the face of the amended lawsuit, and noting that you are cc’ing your own church leadership on this and recommending to all your friends to not attend said conference until an answer is forthcoming.

    Hit ’em back where it hurts, in their pockets $$$$$.


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    Rafiki,

    After reading your proposal to boycott conferences and stop buying the gospelicious books, Martin Luther and the indulgences have come to mind.

    There are some very strong similarities…


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    dee wrote:

    Then they started pushing young marriages. The pedophile thing was the last straw.

    You know, Eagle, the two DO seem connected…


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    Deb wrote:

    After reading your proposal to boycott conferences and stop buying the gospelicious books, Martin Luther and the indulgences have come to mind.

    And after this, I DON’T want to hear any tongue-clucking about Romish Papists, Selling Indulgences, and Pedophile Priests. All too often, it comes from the likes of God’s Truly Elect like SGM.


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    @ Deb:

    Yes, Deb, what was old Luther doing if not “raging against the machine?” 🙂

    The thing is, what’s really going to get the attention of the Reformed Industrial Complex and their conference execs is if previously paying customers change their minds about attending. But then again, receiving a flood of emails might get their attention.

    Also, church members are going to get more attention from their own congregations. I’m thinking of the church that I attended for a bit (but was not a member of) that recently hosted two of the Godly All Star AORs within 3 months as guest speakers. I don’t know if the communications of a non-member will carry much weight. 🙁


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    There just seem to be so few churches who can handle the whole subject of sex maturely…what comes over is that we’re all slavering beasts & can’t control ourselves, so people marry young (& potentially badly), & others never develop any self-control when it comes to their sexual urges (? paedophiles…never get to relate to an adult in terms of their sexuality) All the usual fun stuff is bled out of becoming aware of the opposite sex & maybe starting to date, with the weight of lifelong committment to a spouse weighing the whole process down from the start. People aren’t people who want to be loved & cherished, emotionally as well as physically, they’re just beasts to be contained in marriage. I am heartily glad I did my adolescent years as an athiest. And so few people can handle adult singles as having an adult(even if celibate) sexuality, they’re just big asexual children, or again, beasts.
    Half of these Pastors would drop dead if they had to deal with a genuine mature woman who hadn’t been brought up in a stunted way. They are very fixated on young sexuality.


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    @ ThatMom:

    Soooo…Kevin Swanson is coming out with an early marriage documentary and others are coming out with an anti-birth control documentary? Methinks they’ve realized their numbers are dwindling. There’s blood in the water now and they’re running scared.

    This may actually be a sign that they are on the road to extinction. Folks are loud and strident either because they’re overconfident, or overcompensating.


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    Rafiki wrote:

    Deb and Dee, I am so glad you’ve posted links to these conferences. I think they need to get “love bombed” with emails from concerned Christians asking about their silence (“nothing to see here, these are not the ‘droids you’re looking for”) and continued promotion of Mahaney in the face of the amended lawsuit,

    A bit of rhetoric and terminology from local radio might be in order. When the Catholic Pedophile Clergy scandal broke, our afternoon drive-time wags started appending “-Pedophile” to every clerical title. “Father so-and-so” became “Father-Pedophile so-and-so”, our Archbishop (who was seriously asleep at the switch) became “Cardinal-Pedophile (name)”, etc. Even the Pope was snarked as “Patron Saint of Child Molestors”.

    (And there was much cheering from the likes of SGM, Calvary Chapel, and other Protestants who still fight the Reformation Wars.)

    Applying this to God’s Anointed Elect at SGM (and The Humble One himself), you get “Pastor-Pedophile”, “Head Apostle-Pedophile”, Ceej as “The Humble Pedophile”, etc.

    Because what’s good and appropriate for those Catholics is good and appropriate for those Calvinists.

    (And I doubt their Male Supremacist doctrines would also go over big if widely known…)


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    Deb wrote:

    CJ saying exuberantly that his marriage is S-I-Z-Z-L-I-N-G!!!

    The same marriage where The Humble One forced his wife to service him when he was horny and she was puking her guts from morning sickness? (Humbly, of course…)


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    @ Kolya:

    Sproul Jr. thinks God created sin because He was longing to be wrathful all over somebody’s you-know-what (for His glory, of course)?

    Holy…wow. Just wow.


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    Hester wrote:

    Methinks Quiverfull is the real agenda here, NOT ending/reducing abortion.

    AKA “Outbreed and Overwhelm The Heathen! Our Wombs Shall Be Our Weapons!!!”?

    Or “Just like Lebensborn, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”?


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    @ HUG:

    “A bit of rhetoric and terminology from local radio might be in order. When the Catholic Pedophile Clergy scandal broke, our afternoon drive-time wags started appending ‘-Pedophile’ to every clerical title. ‘Father so-and-so’ became ‘Father-Pedophile so-and-so,’ our Archbishop (who was seriously asleep at the switch) became ‘Cardinal-Pedophile (name),’ etc. Even the Pope was snarked as ‘Patron Saint of Child Molestors.'”

    You’ve said this on here before and I’d just like to put on record how profoundly rude and disrespectful it is for them to have done that. I bet if a different radio station said of all Republicans “Senator-Robber Baron so-and-so” or all Democrats “Representative-Socialist so-and-so,” they would have flipped their lid.

    Oh, wait…that’s what talk radio actually does! Which is a big part of the reason I hate it (aside from the endless ads that waste my auditory time).


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    “This just all has the feeling now of Mohler providing refuge to a fugitive.”

    I am sure the PR guys are working overtime on this one. You have noticed, have you not, the sudden influx of blogs, articles about child abuse from the movement where he is pope? That is just one aspect. Stay tuned. You will see how the celebs do it.


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    “That is exactly what I was thinking back when so many commenters at SGMsurvivors were pushing reluctant victims of SGM to go to Covenant Life Church and tell their experience to Ambassadors Of Reconciliation (AoR).”

    Me too Patti!!! I was screaming at the computer: Why would you trust anyone the wolves hired? And they were simply dissed again…with the description of angry people with clenched fists. Exactly what did they expect? Do they really not realize how deep this deception runs?


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    @ Estelle and Deb:
    Thank you for the Australia Day wishes ! I’m also mindful that this didn’t hit the mainstream media: http://www.nirs.org.au/news/latest-news/7784-day-of-mourning-protest-the-most-significant-moment-in-aboriginal-political-history I went to see the apology document to Indigenous Australians and child migrants in Parliament House last week – beautiful calligraphy and words. ‘Forgotten Australians’ was the term used. I think it’s apt.

    Well much of the country was under rain/storms yesterday, so hopefully many bushfires are now out (especially the Gippsland ones). Much of south-east Queensland is about to be flooded, if it’s not already. So yeah, fires one day, floods the next. Dorothea McKellar got it right ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothea_mckellar


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    @ Haitch: Thanks so much for the link to the article on the Day of Mourning. I agree that “Forgotten Australians” is apt.

    If only the US would do the same for all of the indigenous peoples here… (includes native Hawaiians and other Pacific Islanders).


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    @ Beakerj: You are SO right… I got terribly weary of being an adult-sized asexual teddy bear in many peoples’ eyes.

    It just plain hurts when others refuse to acknowledge you as an adult – one with sexual feelings, emotional longings and needs. It’s as if you’re a teenager, until you hit “grandma” age, that is. (And *of course* grandmas are viewed as asexual, along with widows.)

    I don’t mean to sound cynical (or “bitter,” perhaps? ;)), but the way unmarried adults are treated in most evangelical/charismatic churches is beyond belief.

    However… I know that I had friends (single and married) who respected me as a person *and* who were, for the most part, unaware that they were acting in a discriminatory way toward me (if they did so – not all did) and other single adults.

    fwis, i absolutely LOATHE the word “singles.” In my opinion, it minimizes single adults and is just a convenient way of categorizing a highly varied group of people (those who have never married, widows and widowers, divorced folks). I think it’s especially galling when those who’ve lost spouses via death or divorce are treated as semi-adult once their partner is gone.


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    It’s as if the divorced/widows and widowers have been busted down from generals to privates because they no longer have spouses.

    This is *still* difficult for people in larger society (widows especially) and in the church… well. I know that my mom found new friends and a lot of support after my dad dies, both by getting to know other widows in her church (Lutheran) as well as in more “general” social circles.

    But… so often, for those in the evangelical world, there is no support – and in many cases, almost nobody else who is a widow or widower. (Since so many churches seem to be geared almost exclusively toward young married couples with kids.)


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    Numo, We are addressing this at our church. Not for us as we have a ton of seniors and middle aged and older
    . But we are getting the word out that we are senior friendly. We are single friendly and we are widowed friendly and divorced friendly. Just in the past year we’ve had 25 in these categories join our church. Guess where they came from? The evangelical seeker Mega. They got the word they were not really welcome there. When they started looking around for churches… We put them to work Even before they officially join! They love it. They are our Family now. We are blessed with such varied backgrounds and ages. And you know who benefits more from these people? Our children.


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    @numo, you’ve just written the ‘singles and the church’ future post ! I totally agree, especially with the use of the word ‘single’. ‘Unmarried’ as a term is no better. Unfortunately I don’t think relegating ‘singles’ to the bottom of the humanity pile is just in the church but in wider society also. We are not that far still from ‘barren’ and ‘spinster’. Maybe I’ll write some stuff under a pseudonym like that cool universalist guy. Try explaining that you’re single in some Pacific countries – they are astounded and struggle to comprehend it. I had the same conversation with an African guy last week. “Don’t you get lonely?” he asked. Sure, and it can be lonely with a partner and surrounded by family also (oh, and the obligatory homosexuality debate – I pointed him to August last year in TWW and said, ‘read all that week !’) I figured out many years ago that being single or married – neither state is better is better than the other, they’re just different ways of living. I like Schmuley Boteach (probably because he talks so fast, love it) but when he says (paraphrase) that we are all called to be in union with another, well that’s where we part ways. Definitely though, society (which includes churchies) preferences marriage and partnerships above everything. I look forward to the day when we can have a Prime Minister or similar who is unpartnered (like in Love Actually – hee !). I don’t think people can quite handle that concept yet. Blurt over !

    PS Another bunch of folks who are also in the ignored/forgotten category are the Chagossians, which I discovered when I heard about Diego Garcia on the interwebs…


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    numo wrote:

    (Since so many churches seem to be geared almost exclusively toward young married couples with kids.)

    Because that’s how you Outbreed The Heathen. Remember Quiverfull and the 200-year plan?


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    Beakerj wrote:

    Half of these Pastors would drop dead if they had to deal with a genuine mature woman who hadn’t been brought up in a stunted way. They are very fixated on young sexuality.

    Sounds like teenage horny-boyz.


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    TW,

    I would venture a guess that the reason Mahaney is allowed to speak so often at SEBTS is that he donated $250,000 of SGM’s funds and $100,000 of his own money to Mohler’s seminary. Funny how that works in both religion and politics.

    Yeh, that’s disgusting. As long as Mahaney and SGM are giving money, doesn’t matter what happened to those kids and how they covered it up. I hope Deb is right and that Danny Akin comes to regret his alliance with Mahaney. Right now, he has zero credibility. And worse, as far as I’m concerned, the silence of Akin, Mohler, and every single SBC leader who is staying silent and continue to align themselves with Mahaney and SGM are complicit.


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    @ Haitch: Oh yes, the people from Chagos! I have a recording by a lady who was forced to leave there when she was young.

    and I did not know about Chagos and the Chagossians until very recently – it seems like such a cruel thing to do, no matter *how* strategically important the area might be.

    As for prejudices against single people in society, yep… I hear you. And I’ve encountered incomprehension on the part of folks from other countries and cultures as well, even though there are – and always have been – people in their societies who’ve never been married, or else have been and never remarried (by choice or otherwise).

    but prejudices are still there toward married people whose spouses are absent. My father had to be away for long periods of time for his job, and I know that there were people who happily invited her to parties and get-togethers when my father was in town. When he wasn’t there, they acted like she didn’t exist. It hurt her badly, and my father hurt for her, too. I didn’t understand it, of course, when I was a child, but I know that my mom was very lonely at times and it was hard to see.


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    @ Anon 1: You are smart to be in that church!

    As for kids benefiting, of course they do! Especially in these times, when kids often have very little contact with grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins. I’m thankful that I grew up in the same town as one set of grandparents and got to spend lots of time with them.


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    @ Anon 1: One thing I know for certain: the mainline denoms have rarely had this problem – if anything, the elderly outnumber the young in all too many churches today.

    Where I live now, there are lots of small country churches, and – sadly – a lot of their members got siphoned off to the local “mega.” (It’s not that big, but if you make adjustments re. the number of people in this area, I suppose it really is one after all. It’s also a pretty hidebound more-or-less fundy church; the other place that attracts people is an NAR-style church run by a guy who’s been known to say things like : women aren’t intelligent enough to name their babies. I wish I was making that up, btw.)


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    @ Haitch: The “cool universalist guy” is Robin Parry, aka Gregory MacDonald. (The 2nd is the pen name he used for his book on possible xtian universalist views.)

    One thing I’m likeing about that book: he isn’t trying to persuade anyone to believe what he does, only to put some alternatives to the “burn in hell forever” view on the table.

    For my part, I don’t think I could ever subscribe to annihilationism, because it seems extremely unmerciful and unloving (on the part of god) to me, and I’m surprised – in a way – that John Stott was an annhilationist in his later years. (Seems out of character for him – he was such an open-minded writer.)


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    The other thing that struck me about the Sproul Jr tweet was the insensitivity toward and complete lack of understanding of bulimia. He seems the think bulimia is just a choice made by self-absorbed women (I doubt he realises men can be bulimic), when it’s actually an illness. So not only is he advancing very extreme views on birth control, he’s trivialising an serious illness that’s already not taken seriously by much of society.


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    Thank you for your wishes for Australia Day. It apparently takes a holiday weekend to inspire some decent rain in Sydney, and I am watching my brown grass turn green again within a few hours. Perhaps it’s a powerful metaphor for how God can bring life and hope again?

    I am so over this anti-contraception stance (something I have rarely heard of amongst Australian Protestants. Surely the ready availability of contraception is the first line in reducing abortions?

    This is a little off-topic, but I thought I’d share anyway. As some of you know, I live Sydney Anglican-land, where it has been declared by the Archbishop’s brother that “it is a sin for a woman to preach and a sin for a man to listen to her.” Nevertheless, since every rector is boss of his own parish, and I am fully qualified in theology, I preach, oh, 6-8 times a year — not as much as I would like, but still something. This morning we welcomed our new children’s worker to the church, an older lady who has been in churches all her adult life. She told me after the service that it was the first time in her life that she had heard a woman preach — and she liked it. Now I happen to know that one of the previous churches she worked in for 20 years was run by the man who instigated a High Court challenge to the legitimacy of other Anglican dioceses ordaining women in the early 90’s. (I kid you not, he spent a lot of diocesan money launching a case in the courts — and the court, after due deliberation, threw out the case and — surprise! — said it was outside its jurisdiction)

    I think this really brought home to me just how counter cultural I’m being, and right now I’m sitting here wondering how someone as shy and timid as I am ever ended up in this position! and I wouldn’t undo a single step!

    Dee and Deb, it leaves me more in awe of your courage than ever — and the same for Julie Anne and your ilk, for the stand you have taken against tyranny and corruption


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    @ Eagle: Eagle – hey, I’m still in the process of taking baby steps, and i think you are *very* wise to be slow and deliberate in all of this.

    Getting through – and past – spiritual abuse takes time. A lot of it. And I do believe you’re on the right track re. your past experiences being (sadly) typical of *some* segments of the church, but by no means all. (No push re. Lutherans or anything, just sayin’… ;))


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    @ Pam: Err, yeah. The whole thing is super-sickening.

    But then, I’ve seen people “treat” eating disorders as evidence of “demonic oppression,” so…


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    We go to the SGC church in Apex, so I can clarify a couple points. There used to be a blurb in the bulletin about communion explaining that it was open to all Christians but also asking anyone under church discipline at any church to not participate. It never listed names, in fact we’ve been here 10 years and I’ve never heard of anyone being church disciplined.

    There are a few ladies that wear a head covering during the service (I can think of only 3, so you probably saw them all). The passage in 1 Corinthians was mentioned once in a sermon or teaching and whoever was speaking was giving their perspective that it was *not* necessary for Christian woman to wear today. But yes, of course SGM is complementarian.


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    That is a good question Eagle, but we definitely have some in our congregation who disagree about charismatic gifts, reformed doctrine, pretty significant stuff that is taught by SGM and none have been kicked out yet 🙂 We’re not all CJ fans and there have been some bad clothing choices too. We do believe in church discipline, I’m just saying it’s not for minor stuff or differences of opinion. I think it’s saved for things like someone unrepentantly committing adultery etc. But again, I’ve literally not heard of a single person being under church discipline since we’ve been here. And, you’re right SGM is no Disneyworld.


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    Before taking Communion, in the churches I’ve attended the pastor of course gives a brief explanation with relevent scriptural references and notes that only those who have made a public profession of faith in Christ (through baptism, etc.), members of a bible-believing church, etc. should partake, etc.

    I have never seen a notification in the church bulletin asking individuals who are under church discipline to refrain from coming to the table, nor have I ever heard a pastor reference those under church discipline in his pre-Communion remarks. Ever.

    Considering that the actual numbers of church discipline cases are so small, I wonder why the need to emphasize in writing, in the bulletin, which is likely printed weekly, that those under discipline are prohibited from the Communion table?

    The conclusions I’d draw as a visitor to said church would be a) they must be dealing with a LOT of people under discipline if they have to write it out in the bulletin; or b) they must have a serious interest in church discipline to highlight it in this manner.


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    @ Julie Anne:
    That’s exactly why I left over 25 years ago. I kept expecting CJ’s sermons to have more meat. They never did. He should have done what Pastor Klein suggested years ago and actually go to seminary.


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    Bridget wrote:

    @ thatmom: On the first page of that site they have “Patriarch in Training” and “Patriarch” decals . . . speechless!

    It’s on men’s underwear and the baby bibs…what is wrong with these people? If I wasn’t told it was a “christian” site, I’d think it Mormon influenced.


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    Lin wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    @ thatmom: On the first page of that site they have “Patriarch in Training” and “Patriarch” decals . . . speechless!
    It’s on men’s underwear and the baby bibs…what is wrong with these people? If I wasn’t told it was a “christian” site, I’d think it Mormon influenced.

    It’s on underwear?!?! That sounds like something out of a creepy weird porn parody.


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    So, Lisa, you wouldn’t break fellowship with me because I shared concerns about the introduction of Ezzo’s parenting classes?

    And why are the head covering verses ignored but complementarianism accepted?

    One more question, can you cite one benefit complementarianism affords women?


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    Lisa,

    Thanks for your comment. Perhaps Dee and I met you when we attended. As I said in the post, the members we spoke with were very nice; however, I am extremely concerned about the hyper-authoritarian leadership that pervades SGM.

    As a case in point, I have done some research into your church's previous pastor and his de-gifting which appears to have been the result of an issue with one of his children, and I was so saddened to learn about his wife's passing. Such de-giftings throughout the SGM "family of churches" are a huge red flag. I can't imagine being a member of a church and supporting it with my time, talent, and treasure and having absolutely no say in whether my pastor stays or goes.


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    Deb, I am troubled by those things too. I just wanted to clarify details about SGC Apex since I currently go there. I have seen positive change in the past year, but yes the SGM influence is still there and our church is still part of SGM. The situation with the pastor you mentioned happened (I think) a year before we got there. We didn’t really find out many details till more recently, I had no reason to ask questions about it till the brent docs came out. So yes, I have huge concerns and I would not try to defend that stuff.


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    @Debra Baker
    Not only would I not break fellowship with you, I would hug you and thank you for using your brain. Although I know that’s not what happened to you.

    Complementarianism…well for us, my husband works and I get to stay home and educate our kids, that works in our family and we both love it, but actually I wouldn’t want to say everyone must do things that way, so maybe I’m not really that complementarian 🙂


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    Lisa,

    I appreciate your transparency. I hope you and your fellow congregants understand that Dee and I are trying to address systemic problems in a ministry that appears to have caused harm to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

    As a Southern Baptist, I am concerned that C.J. Mahaney is having quite a bit of influence at two Southern Baptist seminaries. When C.J. took his leave of absence, Al Mohler publicly proclaimed that he endorses Mahaney's leadership style, and that deeply troubles me.

    We here at TWW are sounding the alarm.


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    “The conclusions I’d draw as a visitor to said church would be a) they must be dealing with a LOT of people under discipline if they have to write it out in the bulletin; or b) they must have a serious interest in church discipline to highlight it in this manner.”

    Rafiki, I had the same thoughts. It creates a certain culture I do not think is healthy in a long haul. Perhaps it is an SGM policy? I have been reading over at survivors which affirms that many things were rolled out SGM wide such as focus on certain topics, sin, etc. It seems to be more cookie cutter than what I even thought as more churches chime in on the same thing actions, topics, etc and how they were presented.

    I am against discipline? No. But I would refer folks to 1 Corin 5. There is certainly no need to put a warning in the bulletin!

    When we partake, one of our deacons (sometimes a woman!) will simply say that all believers are welcome to participate. People forget Judas was at the last supper. In fact, I would say there are pastors who should not be partaking so I would watch those bulletin announcements. :o)


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    “Sometimes I think it comes down to finding the right place. The more I explore and check things out the more I wonder if I just got a taste of some screwed up places. But for me its baby steps….baby steps…baby steps. But man things are slowly moving forward.”

    Sometimes I think it is better to live out the Christian faith outside the “institutions” but I know that is very hard to find nones to fellowship with. Defintely take your time and don’t let any place pressure you to “join”. We have very active people who have not officially joined but are members of the Body. They have their reasons. We do not make an issue of it at all and for that I am grateful as people can come, relax, get involved and come to that on their own completely with no pressure.

    And we do have our problems. Over the last 5 years or so, some of the YRR have tried to infiltrate but what is so funny is that it does not work. There are too many people there (mainly older ones, btw) who catch on quick and say, that is not who we are and they leave because we do not know the “true Gospel” and do not want their great insight. :o)

    Older folks with wisdom are not good for the YRR which is why they want their own churches filled with 20-30 somethings. In General, older SBC folks strongly believe in the Priesthood and soul competency and that is not a good fit with the YRR.


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    "We didn’t really find out many details till more recently, I had no reason to ask questions about it till the brent docs came out. So yes, I have huge concerns and I would not try to defend that stuff."

    Lisa, If you have gone there for any length of time, the church should have been talking about it as a Body of Christ. That is what concerns me about SGM.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy<
    ott conferences and stop buying the gospelicious books, Martin Luther and the indulgences have come to mind.
    And after this, I DON’T want to hear any tongue-clucking about Romish Papists, Selling Indulgences, and Pedophile Priests. All too often, it comes from the likes of God’s Truly Elect like SGM.

    Not sure I understand the point of this demand. Is it to say that its fine to criticize SGM, using derogatory language such as “God’s Truly Elect” but off limits to say anything about “Romish Papists”?

    Who considers themselves Gods Truly Elect? Are they in error and worthy to be derided only if they exist outside of The One True Church, which is headed by someone who claims infallibility? A hierarchy similiar to the one constructed by two men whose religious sensibilities were conditioned by the Roman Catholic Church?

    Are the similarities between SGM leaders covering up incidences of pedophilia in order to protect the reputation of the organization in which it occurred not to be compared to the centuries old criminal misconduct of the RCC, that has done the same, resulting in the corruption of countless lives?

    Are the selling of books written by one of these ‘holy men’ who consider themselves Christ’s representatives, direct members of Christ’s priesthood in the sense Catholic priests do, not to be thought of as indulgences?

    And is nothing to be mentioned of Martin Luther here at The WARTBURG Watch??

    “Me thinks the lady doth protest too much” at any hint of derision regarding the RCC.

    “Tisk, tisk” <—clucking my tongue at the comment's unreasonable and hypocritical demand.


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    Whoa, no idea why that showed up in all blue. I selected the earlier comment of Headless Unicorn Guy and the typed my comment afterwards without altering or using any html that I was aware of. Grrrr


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    @ Evie:

    Hmmm . . . hard to make sense out of that comment, Evie 🙂


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    Behind in my reading, I decided to have my device “read” the article aloud while I cooked breakfast. I laughed as it pronounced C J “Mawney”. Is he related to Creflo “Dawler”?


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    Debra Baker wrote:

    So, Lisa, you wouldn’t break fellowship with me because I shared concerns about the introduction of Ezzo’s parenting classes?
    And why are the head covering verses ignored but complementarianism accepted?
    One more question, can you cite one benefit complementarianism affords women?

    Sounds like Lisa is saying the benefit is she “gets to stay at home” and be a dependent. Pure complementarianism Debra. Keeping women in positions of dependency because, after all, they’re subordinates and love it woohoo!!


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    @ anon 1:

    Anon 1 –

    This is something that bothers me more than anything — the removal and marginalizing of the older generations of believers. It doesn’t occur to the YRRs that they are thumbing their noses at the wisdom that comes with age. I think we are seeing the (sad) results of this in the lives and ministries of several groups — I am thinking of MH and SGM in particular. These are ministries that have grown up with all the same age group and demographics. It creates a very unhealthy atmosphere. When the guidlines of scripture concerning elders are ignored, you really create a disaster in the local church. The young elders become doctrine wielding tyrants, instead of servant leaders, because that’s the only thing they know how to do.


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    @ Evie: I think you might be missing the irony in his comment… he’s Catholic, and he can tell you better than I about all the Catholic-bashing he’s heard from holier than thou-type Protestants. It’s not about trying to cover up for the child abuse in the RC church.


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    @ Bridget: Just a thought… Although I agree that many of the calvinistas are doing exactly what you say, the problem predates them.


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    Glad for the TWW Lighthouse that shines a light on troubled waters and provides a beacon for those in the darkness struggling to get to a safe shore! Go Ladies Go!!!

    An article that Brad Sargent and I co-authored has just been posted on my Church Exiters.com website.

    The title is: Spiritual Abuse and Linking Other Abuses.

    I trust that it becomes one of the many helps available to people as they continue to process these complex issues.

    http://churchexiters.com/category/spiritual-abuse-and/


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    Hopefully this is easier to understand Bridget!

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Deb wrote: After reading your proposal to boycott conferences and stop buying the gospelicious books, Martin Luther and the indulgences have come to mind.
    And after this, I DON’T want to hear any tongue-clucking about Romish Papists, Selling Indulgences, and Pedophile Priests. All too often, it comes from the likes of God’s Truly Elect like SGM.

    Not sure I understand the point of this demand. Is it to say that its fine to criticize SGM, using derogatory language such as “God’s Truly Elect” but off limits to say anything about “Romish Papists”?

    Who considers themselves Gods Truly Elect? Are they in error and worthy to be derided only if they exist outside of The One True Church, which is headed by someone who claims infallibility? A hierarchy similiar to the one constructed by two men whose religious sensibilities were conditioned by the Roman Catholic Church?

    Are the similarities between SGM leaders covering up incidences of pedophilia in order to protect the reputation of the organization in which it occurred not to be compared to the centuries old criminal misconduct of the RCC, that has done the same, resulting in the corruption of countless lives?

    Are the selling of books written by one of these ‘holy men’ who consider themselves Christ’s representatives, direct members of Christ’s priesthood in the sense Catholic priests do, not to be thought of as indulgences?

    And is nothing to be mentioned of Martin Luther here at The WARTBURG Watch??

    “Me thinks the lady doth protest too much” at any hint of derision regarding the RCC.

    “Tisk, tisk” <—clucking my tongue at the comment's unreasonable and hypocritical demand


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    @ numo:

    Yes, Numo. But being in two different shepherding groups, that both started up in the 70’s, I think it was much worse than what you might have seen in the traditional denominations at that time. Mars Hill seems to be even moreso. That’s why you have a 40ish guy im MD who won’t listen to anyone and same with CJ. They have no older mentors whom they can gain wisdom from. They may have chosen this path purposely for all I know.


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    numo wrote:

    @ Evie: I think you might be missing the irony in his comment… he’s Catholic, and he can tell you better than I about all the Catholic-bashing he’s heard from holier than thou-type Protestants. It’s not about trying to cover up for the child abuse in the RC church.

    I can understand all the catholic bashing. I can understand if someone were catholic how that would sting, especially as the topic centers on pedophilia. Surely the RCC has taken a lot of heat for the problem of hiding pedophile priests within its ranks, and justifiably so. What I dont understand then is why a member of the RCC would say something to the effect that he doesnt want anyone bashing the RCC and go on to suggest that “all too often it comes from the likes of God’s Truly Elect”? What ‘comes all too often’?

    I think HUG needs to buy a one of John Piper’s books or a shard of dishware from the Last Supper from his priest or something for that comment. Who is he kidding!?


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    @ Bridget: I agree the MD is FAR more extreme than many – or maybe it’s that he’s exploiting all the mediums he can to play shock jock “pastor”?

    As for the screaming (etc.) that he does while onstage, there are all too many role models. I also think that there have been others who are just as extreme, but were never “celebrities” in the way he is – again, very adroit manipulation of media for maximum PR on his part.

    I have compared him to Stalin before. (Google “cult of personality” and see what comes up.) I don’t think his tactics are new; but they *are* very alarming!


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    @ Evie: My suggestion: you might want to take some time to read HUG’s previous comments, both here and at internetmonk.com

    But hey, he can address your concerns far better than I ever could! (He’s in CA, so will likely get back on this thread later on…)


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    @ Bridget: As for “much worse,” maybe.

    I’ve mostly been in independent churches, even when in those RC shepherding groups. They had no official sanction from anyone, and were full of (among other things) adultery and other sexual problems, extorting money from members, etc. etc. etc.

    Just because people come from an established denom doesn’t mean they are any less prone to screwing up spectacularly. And they have, and they still do.


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    dee wrote:

    Stormy
    Oh yeah the answer to the pastor/lightbulb joke? (How many pastors does it take)
    None. God has predestined when the light will be on. Calvinists do not change light bulbs. They simply read the instructions and pray the light bulb will be one that has been chosen to be changed.

    Better yet, a light bulb which is always on, and never needs changed.
    http://www.centennialbulb.org/cam.htm


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    Oh, and: sexual predation on young women in the guise of premarital counseling.

    One of the “leaders” used to have sex with these young women, so that he could “teach” them how to satisfy their husbands.

    [brain bleach time]


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    @ Bridget: Put another way, “There is nothing new under the sun.” (Prior to the advent of the internet, no less.)


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    I don’t know,numo. Maybe I was going back too far. For a long time the RCC leaders were the smartest guys in the room. Then the Reformers broke from the RCC and said they were the smartest guys in the room. We have seen some variation of this throughout the rest of history. This latest YRR resurgence is simply more of we are the smartest guys in the room. The rise of the shepherding cult Back in the seventy’s was simply more of we are the smartest guys in the room.

    I know that is a pedantic view of history but it seems to sum it up. :o)


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    @ Anon 1: I have a feeling that this is how every generation tries to more or less reinvent the wheel.

    As for breaking with the Catholic church, Luther was genuinely trying to reform it from within, until he was excommunicated. I suspect that many others were attempting to do the same – though likely their names are largely lost to history. (Since “ordinary people” rarely show up in official records prior to the 20th century, and even then, the vast majority of us escape the notice of those who actually write the history books. For the Reformation era, it’s *much* more so, as so few people were literate.)


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    @ Anon 1: I think maybe you meant to address Bridget?


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    Lets hope so Numo because it came across like he’s saying hypocrisy is more rampant within the ranks of people like those in SGM, who think of themselves as “God’s Truly Elect” and then get into trouble for the same kinds of things the RCC has been in trouble for, which they may (or may not have been) outspoken critics of.

    Clearly HUG is in agreement with many of the problems being observed here at TWW and has joined the chorus of those who agree the issues we are discussing are problems in the church. But what seems to be his perspective is we are talking about problems as they affect “the church” outside the RCC. As if to say, “Ah ha! See, its not fair for you to deride Catholics and DO NOT use derogatory phrases such as “Romish” or “Papist” or speak of “Indulgences,” or make any such comparisons because you, too, are guilty of the same things! And those that do that kind of thing are those that think of themselves as ‘God’s TRULY Elect,’ the ones that think they’re better than Catholics and have a right to throw stones at the RCC.”

    It would seem to me if the irony exists anywhere, it lies in the suggestion that those outside the Organization that assumes it’s the True Church led by a man who assumes he’s God’s Truly Elect (as do RCC Bishops and Priests)are more at fault for their sins of hypocrisy than those that are within an organization that claims to be the True Church!

    Let us not work to minimize the awful, terrible, tragic damage that has been done to children by the hands of men who dispense sacraments with one hand (as Christ’s Representative, a direct member of His priesthood, Mediator between God and man) and with the other fondle and abuse innocent children.


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    Lets hope so Numo because it came across like he’s saying hypocrisy is more rampant within the ranks of people like those in SGM, who think of themselves as “God’s Truly Elect” and then get into trouble for the same kinds of things the RCC has been in trouble for, which they may (or may not have been) outspoken critics of.

    Clearly HUG is in agreement with many of the problems being observed here at TWW and has joined the chorus of those who agree the issues we are discussing are problems in the church. But what seems to be his perspective is we are talking about problems as they affect “the church” outside the RCC. As if to say, “Ah ha! See, its not fair for you to deride Catholics and DO NOT use derogatory phrases such as “Romish” or “Papist” or speak of “Indulgences,” or make any such comparisons because you, too, are guilty of the same things! And those that do that kind of thing are those that think of themselves as ‘God’s TRULY Elect,’ the ones that think they’re better than Catholics and have a right to throw stones at the RCC.”

    It would seem to me if the irony exists anywhere, it lies in the suggestion that those outside the Organization that assumes it’s the True Church led by a man who assumes he’s God’s Truly Elect (as do RCC Bishops and Priests)are more at fault for their sins of hypocrisy than those that are within an organization that claims to be the True Church!

    Let us not work to minimize the awful, terrible, tragic damage that has been done to children by the hands of men who dispense sacraments with one hand (as Christ’s Representative, a direct member of His priesthood, Mediator between God and man) and with the other fondle children. This isn’t about pointing out the sins of others in an effort to exonerate the sins of the Roman Catholic Church.


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    Deb wrote:

    I appreciate your transparency. I hope you and your fellow congregants understand that Dee and I are trying to address systemic problems in a ministry that appears to have caused harm to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

    Yes, I see what you’re trying to address and I have a lot of agreement with you and I appreciate both you and Dee bringing things out into the open. I totally support all the people that have left our church in the past year. I personally know people that have been hurt and I know people that have benefited (which in no way justifies the bad stuff)…to me it’s a mixed bag.


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    Lisa

    Welcome. I give you props for joining in the fray. We are not fans of SGM and I know that your pastor is part of the in crowd. Do you do a blog? I recently think I saw one written by a woman at the church in Apex.

    “in fact we’ve been here 10 years and I’ve never heard of anyone being church disciplined.” How would you have heard? Aren’t these things hush hush unless, of course, you make the error of trying to leave the church and then it is announced to the congregation and then to the church those poor people try to find refuge in?


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    Evie wrote:

    Sounds like Lisa is saying the benefit is she “gets to stay at home” and be a dependent. Pure complementarianism Debra. Keeping women in positions of dependency because, after all, they’re subordinates and love it woohoo!!

    I think some more details will help here. I have a master’s degree and worked for 5+ years before we had kids. I can certainly get a job and support myself and family if I needed or wanted to. I am blessed that we don’t need to both be working, so I’m able to stay home with my kids and still live comfortably. I wouldn’t consider the time and effort I put into homeschooling them a “position of dependency”. It’s hard work (although as I said, I love it). But I know it is not for everyone and there are other good options for kids’ education. If the wife loves her work, keep working! I’m not against that. I just mean this works well in our family and yes it looks complementarian, but I wouldn’t prescribe it for everyone else.


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    Elizabeth

    I believe that CJ has presented a persona of a deeply read individual, complete with books around his office that might tend to substantiate his claim. However, I am suspicious of the actual amount he reads. Oops, actually the amount he reads of doctrine, not sports. His sermon was lightweight. Could it be that he is not the man he represents to all of us? Could it be that going to seminary might expose him?

    I highly recommend a movie that might shed some light on what is going on. It is called Being There. It deals with a man named Chance who is a gardener, who is mentally challenged- quite severely. Through a set of circumstances he is forced into the world. Everything he say is interpreted as "brilliant" when in fact, he is saying nothing at all. He becomes an advisor to the President and is sought after by the celebs. Could it be that CJ is really Chance the Gardener?

     


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    Lisa wrote:

    @Debra Baker
    Not only would I not break fellowship with you, I would hug you and thank you for using your brain. Although I know that’s not what happened to you.
    Complementarianism…well for us, my husband works and I get to stay home and educate our kids, that works in our family and we both love it, but actually I wouldn’t want to say everyone must do things that way, so maybe I’m not really that complementarian

    Note: I got to Lisa’s response and no farther down the thread but I appreciate the gracious response. I, too, feel fortunate to have been able to stay home with my children until they went to school and I, again, feel fortunate to have been afforded the opportunity to get my education.

    So, I have gone the traditional mom route and the non-traditional student route. Similarly, my five girls are across the spectrum but mostly in non-traditional careers as I have a teacher, a neonatologist, an estimator (and Marine) An Engineer, and a budding roboticist. I think our temperaments are gifts given to us by God and refined by environment. I doubt God would have so richly blessed my daughters if He didn’t want them to contribute to bettering the earth by using their talents.


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    Lisa, I’m glad you have an education since you are educating your children. Many women who subscribe to the system of belief you do aren’t encouraged to go to college, especially if it involves moving too far away from home far from an SGM related church. So, don’t crow too loudly. Your own experience doesn’t make complementarianism anymore palatable or workable for the Christian woman. It’s not based on experience anyway. That’s fine that you can stay at home. That’s fine your husband has a good job. That’s fine that you have an education and worked before you had kids, etc. None of that changes the fact that complementarianism is an unbiblical doctrine. Your experience, as nice sounding and nice looking as it may be, doesnt validate anything. Sorry!


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    @ Evie: I think it would be most helpful for you to talk directly with HUG.

    He does have a rather unique way of expressing things, not unlike Sopwith (aka Sopy), another frequent commenter here.

    But hey, I’m not a referee, and maybe was overstepping by trying to act as such.

    Best,
    numo


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    Numo, its funny you should say that because I have attempted to talk directly with him. And I realize this may come across as me calling him out for his comment as stemming from hurt feelings or something, but I assure you that is 100% not the case. Im saying that up front because I know that could easily be used to assign some kind of motivation behind my remarks, as though I was seeking some kind of revenge.

    So, I’ll be open with you. Under a different post, HUG kept making remarks about EDWARD (sparkle, sparkle) that I didn’t really understand, and I asked him about his name “Headless Unicorn Guy.” He responded to me with a full explanation, including links to his painting of a unicorn and to a story he had written to go with the painting.

    I was intrigued by the whole thing and found myself thinking about his story/picture. Rather than discussing it with him here and interrupting the focus of conversation stemming from Deb & Dee’s posts, I asked for one of the Blog Queens to contact him so that I could communicate directly with him. Apparently my initial email was met with all kinds of confusion over who I was (Evie, from this blog) and why I was contacting him. Needless to say its been odd. But I sent him the story I wrote that was inspired by his story and I have yet to hear anything back from him although I see he continues to post here, so I know its not because he’s not online.

    So, I would contact him directly but ‘ve tried to do so. And he is the only person who comments here that I have attempted to contact personally. He’s acted suspicious of me and any attempt Ive made to communicate with him has been completely fruitless. I cannot say if he is a nice guy or not. He seems a little headless to me.


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    Lisa

    Have you read SGM Survivors? If not, why not? We are not members of SGM nor would we ever be in light of these many, many reports. It was that blog that got us looking into what appears to be a tragic interpretation of the faith by SGM. 

    The Bible says that 3 witnesses confirm a problem. It appears to me that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of reports. By ignoring these, is not SGM, and your church ignoring the Biblical admonition to speak out against injustice and sin? How does one ignore the cries of so many people and sleep well at night?

    PS=Please tell your pastor that the Union of Sovereign Grace Churches sounds like the USSR and would not advance your wish for a more “benign” image. TWW could have so much fun with that name.


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    @ Evie:

    He has talked fairly extensively (on other threads) about some of the things that might make it difficult for him to communicate.

    Not sure if you've read any of those comments, though. I haven't talked with him directly, though I've been reading his comments on imonk for years, and sometimes we "talk" with each other here, on-list.


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    @ Evie: Also, by “talk directly,” I was thinking about right here, in the comment sections.

    Apologies for not making that clear.


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    As for breaking with the Catholic church, Luther was genuinely trying to reform it from within, until he was excommunicated.”

    Yes, I have read the theses which were focused on indulgences. We do have different views of Luther from the historical and doctrinal perspective so I will leave it at that.

    “I suspect that many others were attempting to do the same – though likely their names are largely lost to history. (Since “ordinary people” rarely show up in official records prior to the 20th century, and even then, the vast majority of us escape the notice of those who actually write the history books. For the Reformation era, it’s *much* more so, as so few people were literate.)”

    Totally agree with this. I am amazed so much ana baptist writing survived even though it is not monolithic in doctrine, etc. I do believe there have always been groups or individuals who have rebelled against the state church magistrate position. We get a glimpse of some of them in Martyrs Mirror. Many events recorded with no names but the persecution to death from other “believers” both Reformed and Catholic.


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    “Could it be that CJ is really Chance the Gardener?”

    I love this! Yes! CJ is a celebrity because of sheer force and ambition. There really is nothing there. I am constantly shocked when I hear his sermons or teachings at how shallow they really are and doctrinally bizarre. But if that sort of thing is all you hear from him or his minions. I think his celebrity is all wrapped up in his persona. Much like Piper who is not exactly shallow but makes himself appear deep with verbosity, lots of adjectives, verbs and confusion with redefinition of concepts words that make him sound like some sort of anointed prophet.

    Hearing some of the surivors talk about how being acknowledged by CJ was such a huge thing for them made me realize it really is cult of personality.


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    Lisa, I would be reluctant to think there are not discipline issues at your SGM church simply because you have not heard of them. SGM churches have a history of operating as a closed society and pew sitters rarely know what really goes on back stage. If you read 1 Corn 5, you will see that discipline process was spoken to the entire church and it was serious. Not for disagreeing with the leaders.

    I would also be reluctant to believe it since there is the snippet in the bulletin.


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    Numo, I understand. Also, it would appear Ive made a big deal about this because of all my technical difficulties: the first comment that appeared in all blue, and two comments one after the other in which I didn’t know or intend for the first comment (which wasnt complete, it was missing the last sentence) to post! Call it LIFE or whatever, but I sometimes find myself in situations where I say something but evidence to the contrary presents itself. I didnt mean to make a mountain out of a molehill but it sure does look that way! I certainly dont mean him any harm! My comment was intended as a healthy challenge, that is all.


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    @ Evie: No worries, Evie!


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    @ anon 1: You do understand that I have a very “mixed” opinion about many of Luther’s writings and ideas, no?

    I think he was a complicated, difficult and often completely irascible person who may well have been struggling with mental illness, a seizure disorder of some kind and/or other serious physical and mental illnesses.

    He wrote *many* hateful things; “On the Jews and their Lies” is by far the most poisonous and – as it turned out – lethal. (The Nazis used it as a justification for many of their atrocities.)

    But… Luther the person is *not* the same thing as Lutheran theology and/or churches. We’re kind of similar to Anglicans in that there’s a huge range of belief and practice under the “Lutheran” heading. As we’ve discussed before in comments, the ultra-fundamentalist Wisconsin Synod (WELS) has little in common with the synod I belong to, the ELCA (Evangelical Luth. Church in America).

    it can be hard to summarize as so many Lutherans who came here – and who live(d) in Europe – speak a variety of languages, from Hungarian to Finnish, Norwegian, even (here) Italian! (There was an Italian Lutheran church in the heart of Erie, PA, very close to where I once lived when I was in college – I worked with a woman from that church and she was *very* surprised to find out that I had never, ever met an Italian Lutheran before!)

    At any rate, immigrants here conducted services in their own languages for long periods of time, and development was/is diverse. Those Scandinavian Lutherans that Garrison Keillor talks about on A Prairie Home Companion might share the same (or very similar) liturgies, but their culture – and, sometimes, their beliefs – are often a world apart from those of Lutherans from a different cultural/linguistic background, in other places.

    I know you think very poorly of Luther; that’s a given. I don’t exactly feel like I can hold him up as a shining example of A Perfect Christian (TM) – he was, in many ways, a mess.

    he was also – and I think this is very important re. understanding his beliefs and outlook – a late medieval man. He wasn’t even close to being modern. There’s a great book on him – written by a German named Heiko Olbermann – that examines his life and work from that perspective; might be worth some of your time. I personally have difficulty with things like the line in “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” where he talks about “this world / with devils filled,” etc. etc.

    OK, I’m rambling now! Most of you regulars know that I’m trying to keep my mind occupied, also that I’m fascinated by church history *and* cultural diversity.

    So, no worries if you don’t feel like reading the above essay! 🙂


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    @ anon 1: I think one reason there’s such a detailed record of (some of) the Anabaptists is that they had access to printing presses.

    If they’d come along prior to the advent of movable type, well… kind of like with the Lollards in England; there aren’t all that many accounts/records, etc. since their reforming movement occurred during the Middle Ages, also because so much was suppressed by both church and state.


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    Dee & Deb, I sent you an article that might be a good Exhibit A of negative Christian stereotypes of singles to address in your single series, if you were thinking of going that direction.


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    anon1

    I appreciated that Lisa confirmed two things for me. I have had some from SGM who have said that my report of some women wearing veils and the communion/discipline thing was not true and that I was making it up. When we visited that church, we were talking about starting a blog and I wanted to be factual in what I observed. I made notes, both of the sermon and other things that I saw. I was so shocked by what I was reading on SGM Survivors that I wanted to be very careful.

    I remember sitting there and wondering (since the depth of the sermon was 1/10" so rapt attention was unnecessary) how these people could bear to go to a church when so many were reporting such horrendous stories throughout the SGM system. It was evident to me that there was a carefully controlled environment, except for CJ who apparently was allowed to do and say whatever he wanted. I have to admit, I just did not get it. But, then again, I think the Cross Centered Life is poor teaching as well.

    I remember feeling so sorry for those who were caught in such a controlling system. The love and freedom of Christ was not evident to me.  I would have been thrown out within a week of arrival because I ask lots and lots of questions and I have read reports that people in this environment are told that awkward question are  a sinful craving for answers. Can you imagine? 

    It is so very, very sad to me that people think this is the best way to follow our loving Savior.

     


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    Numo: such an interesting & educational comment about Luther…really helpful. I find him difficult to the point that I’ve avoided Lutheran Theology, which you’re helping to change.

    Did you ever get my email btw?


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    dee wrote:

    I highly recommend a movie that might shed some light on what is going on. It is called Being There. It deals with a man named Chance who is a gardener, who is mentally challenged, – quite severely. Through a set of circumstances he is forced into the world. Everything he say is interpreted as “brilliant” when in fact, he is saying nothing at all. He becomes an advisor to the President and is sought after by the celebs. Could it be that CJ is really Chance the Gardener?

    To be a bit technical for a moment, here is perhaps where postmodern literary criticism theory is of help to understand the situation. According to this theory, it turns out that "meaning" is not found merely in what the speaker or author intends to convey, but what the listeners or readers interpret – according to what is on their own "grid" of experiences, values, questions, beliefs, practices, etc. In fact, the interpretation by the listener/reader is more important to the communication process than is the intention of the speaker/writer. In non-technical terms: If I say nothing deep or meaningful, but you interpret it as something deeply meaningful, then it affects you as if it really is something instead of nothing. And that's the thing where SGM/Mr. Mahaney overlaps with *Being There*/Chauncey Gardener: When people believe you are erudite, they can convince themselves and others of it. Get a publicity machine behind the nothingness and it soon becomes somethingness, especially when people who might discern or know otherwise stay silent instead of saying anything. It's a sort of contemporary version of The Emperor's New Clothes. The naked truth is that his "truth" is nekkid, and the Court Jury and/or the Court of Public Opinion will likely see things in quite a different light, as their "grid" does not necessarily perceive or appreciate the things SGMer loyalists and Mahaneyists would.


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    Dee said:

    "I would have been thrown out within a week of arrival because I ask lots and lots of questions and I have read reports that people in this environment are told that awkward question are a sinful craving for answers. Can you imagine?"

    Dee,

    Do you remember that the name of Mahaney's sermon that day?  "Cravings and Conflicts"  It was the canned talk he was giving everywhere he went.

    I ask LOTS of questions too, so both of us would have been thrown out. Glad we can ask our questions in this forum.  We're definitely looking for answers.


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    “If I say nothing deep or meaningful, but you interpret it as something deeply meaningful, then it affects you as if it really is something instead of nothing. And that’s the thing where SGM/Mr. Mahaney overlaps with *Being There*/Chauncey Gardener: When people believe you are erudite, they can convince themselves and others of it. Get a publicity machine behind the nothingness and it soon becomes somethingness, especially when people who might discern or know otherwise stay silent instead of saying anything. It’s a sort of contemporary version of The Emperor’s New Clothes. ”

    Excellent way of explaining it.


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    Thank you Deb and Dee — a thousand and one thank yous — for all your research, time, care for victims, being a light, voicing your concern without seeming bitter (like some bloggers whom I can barely read anymore). Your blog and Wade Burleson’s blog have become my go-to resources. I am still in a Southern Baptist Church and appreciate your watchful eye on our Convention. I do not often leave a comment, but wanted to say that I have learned much from you and deeply appreciate what you do!!


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    @ Beakerj: Your email: gosh, no!

    Please try again, and I’ll watch my spam folder, just in case. Gmail can be VERY tricky that way. I’ve had emails go missing altogether – the senders had their copies, but I never received a thing.

    Luther is SO tricky and difficult. But there’s good stuff there as well – I don’t think *anyone* who lived during those times would come across as greatly humanitarian by today’s standards. (An understatement if ever there was one; almost an oxymoron.) While I’m fascinated by history and have been all my life, I suppose I’ve also been able to develop some mental safeguards in order to read and study and discuss. If I focused on atrocities and wrongs, it would be absolutely impossible to deal with any of it.

    All that said, beakerj, you might want to hold off for a while – I know that Calvinist stuff is very triggering for you, and would hate to see you get burned by Luther, too.

    the big thing to focus on: how he interpreted Romans 1-8 in a totally new way. It set him free from endless, incredibly depressing focus on his own sin, on the ceaseless penances he set for himself, etc. etc. etc.

    it set many others free, too – justification by faith, because of God’s love and goodness and finished work on the cross. And belief in a truly risen Christ.


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    dee wrote:

    Welcome. I give you props for joining in the fray. We are not fans of SGM and I know that your pastor is part of the in crowd. Do you do a blog? I recently think I saw one written by a woman at the church in Apex.

    I don’t have a blog but a few ladies at church do. For those SGC Apex readers, I’m the Lisa with two boys and a girl…there are two other Lisas in our church 🙂

    “in fact we’ve been here 10 years and I’ve never heard of anyone being church disciplined.” How would you have heard? Aren’t these things hush hush unless, of course, you make the error of trying to leave the church and then it is announced to the congregation and then to the church those poor people try to find refuge in?

    I actually just meant that no one had been “kicked out” since we’ve been here. As it’s been explained in our church, they would announce if someone was being church disciplined/kicked out. You’re right that they might have started confronting someone about something that had the potential to get them kicked out and I would not know about it. I’m sure there’s been things like that.

    Here is what our bulletin says this morning “The Lord’s Supper: What is it? The Lord’s Supper is a gracious ordinance established by Christ through which we remember the atoning death of our Lord (Luke 22:14-20), reflect on our union as a church body, and anticipate his return (1 Cor 11:17-34).
    Who can participate? Following the prescriptions of the Bible, we invite only those who are born-again by faith and not currently under church discipline to participate in the Lord’s Supper.”

    I do read Survivors. We’ve talked to our pastors, we’re asking questions, it’s troubling. We’re not the only ones that are troubled by it. Some have left, some remain. And I thought the new name idea sounded like USSR as well 🙂

    @ Evie
    I really wasn’t trying to justify complementarianism. I just mean that my family actually looks like a “complementarian” family, but we don’t necessarily think everyone should do what we’re doing, so I probably wouldn’t even label myself that way. We’re not into the whole stay-at-home-daughter thing. We plan that our daughter will go to college and be able to support herself in some area that she’s gifted in. Our church is very diverse in some of these issues. There *are* families I know that don’t want their girls to go to college and would rather *just* prepare them to be homemakers but they are not the majority in our church.

    Our sr pastor did a seminar a few years ago about educational options. Their children are grown and they utilized public and private schools and homeschooling and all their kids went to college. They’re not recommending a one-size-fits-all legalistic approach at our church (though I know some other SGM churches might have and ours might have in the past).

    I’m not saying everything’s rosy. But I just want to clear up when there are misconceptions (like the idea that our church actually published names of people who could not take communion). If people that are less aware of what’s going on in SGM start reading here and see false statements about their church, it does fuel their thinking that this is all a bunch of gossip & slander.


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    Rose,

    I am so grateful that what we discuss here at TWW is of benefit to you.  Four years ago when I was discovering the topics we often discuss, I was really, really disturbed.  Some might have called me “bitter”.  I was just beginning to find out about spiritual abuse, patriarchy, quiverfull, the YRR movement, etc. 

    The push for young marriages really got me upset!  Then Mark Driscoll came and spoke to my daughter’s Campus Crusade group at UNC-Chapel Hill.  That was about 5 weeks before we began blogging, and I guess in some ways it was the impetus that helped launch TWW. 

    We had just done our series on Driscoll in the spring of 2009, and I found out the he (Driscoll) was coming to do a Song of Songs conference at a Southern Baptist church in our area.  The event was already being advertised on a Christian radio station. Someone at that church who was following our bog printed out my rant on Mark Driscoll’s visit to UNC and passed it out to her Sunday School class (unbeknownst to either Dee or me).  In very short order the event was  “postponed” and never rescheduled.  Driscoll still came in June 2009 to speak at the Advance conference at the DPAC; however, he didn’t do that SoS conference.  I look back on that and wonder what REALLY happened…

    When Dee and I flew out to Oklahoma to meet Wade and Rachelle Burleson, that was a turning point for me.  I began listening to lots of his sermons when I got back home, and about two months after our December 2011 visit, we began EChurch.  Hearing Wade, my pastor, and a few others who are not part of the YRR crowd has been comforting to me. 

    I hope you will continue to read our blog and comment whenever you feel led.   Blessings!

     


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    anon 1

    In regards to the pastor that stepped down. It all happened before we moved here. It didn’t occur to me that there would be anything sketchy. All I heard was that he decided to step down because of family/parenting issues. They were still attending the church when we moved here. Later they moved to another church in the area.

    There wasn’t anything that made me think I should ask questions about it. I hadn’t really heard of a pastor stepping down because of parenting issues before, but honestly I thought it sounded humble. Now I know it can really be covering up all kinds of problems and not just a humble “stepping down”. But I didn’t know that at the time. Reading the brent docs made me see that.


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    Lisa

    Why do you stay at your church having read the Brent documents?

     


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    Lisa said:

    “I’m not saying everything’s rosy. But I just want to clear up when there are misconceptions (like the idea that our church actually published names of people who could not take communion). If people that are less aware of what’s going on in SGM start reading here and see false statements about their church, it does fuel their thinking that this is all a bunch of gossip & slander.”

    Hey everybody,

    I want to clarify about the blurb in SGC Apex’s bulletin about church discipline.

    Dee said (1/26, 10:00 am);

    “To add to Deb’s “observation” at that SGM church

    ‘They had a strange section in the bulletin which reminded all the people under “discipline” that they were not allowed to take communion. This was in the bulletin which means it must have affected more than one or two.’ ”

    Then Bridget remarked (1/26, 10:44 am):

    “The names of those under church discipline in the bulletin?”

    Just for clarification, neither Dee nor I saw names listed in the bulletin at SGC Apex, not have we made that claim here.

    I remember the blurb saying what Lisa posted (see below):

    “Here is what our bulletin says this morning “The Lord’s Supper: What is it? The Lord’s Supper is a gracious ordinance established by Christ through which we remember the atoning death of our Lord (Luke 22:14-20), reflect on our union as a church body, and anticipate his return (1 Cor 11:17-34).
    Who can participate? Following the prescriptions of the Bible, we invite only those who are born-again by faith and not currently under church discipline to participate in the Lord’s Supper.” ”


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    Lisa

    Who said that the bulletin published names of who couldn’t take communion? I said that the bulletin said that those who were under church discipline could not take communion and I found that really, really weird as well as offputting and 

     What are the false staements that we have made? Also, you do know that slander is a legal term, don’t you? Slander is a false spoken statement. So, who here has made a false spoken statement, what was it and when did they make it? When you use the word false, do you mean they lie or they are mistaken? 

    Do me a favor. I know that some in SGM like to claim “gossip and slander” for everything from asking how much Mahaney’s house cost to why a pastor stepped down. That dog don’t hunt here. We talk about everything. On this blog, gossip is “Did you see the dress Mary was wearing? It makes her look like a whale.” It is not gossip to question why a pastor is living in a fancy home when he is being supported by the tithes of ordinary, hardworking church members.

    When you make a charge of gossip and slander, we want details. Who, what, where-you get the drift.


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    Lisa said, “Our sr pastor did a seminar a few years ago about educational options.”

    In typical SGM style, most/all SGM churches did that and all about at the same time, too. Perhaps CLC led the way and they all followed?

    In any case, it is quite normal for individual SGM churches to institute a policy change, begin a new program, preach a new message, use a new software program, carry a new book, rename care groups, etc., as if the pastors were led by the Lord to do so, only to find out once people start blogging that a directive came down from on high and pretty much all the SGM churches obeyed in a two-week window.

    It may be put in nicer terms than an order from high command, but that is still how it functions.


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    Off topic for this thread but an update for a previous post.

    From the same website that covered Larry Tomczak’s response to the abuse allegations:

    http://www.charismanews.com/us/35166-former-pastor-jack-schaap-blames-affair-with-teen-on-personal-problems

    The explanation for Jack Schapp’s behavior is that he was stressed out. Also of interest are the quotes from the 140 letters of support he got from members of his former church and the remarks of a particular commenter, Rosalie Dann, who blames his “failure” and the public sins of pastors on their congregations; who do not pray for them enough.


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    Lisa –

    Oops! I’m the one that made the misstatement about “names in the bulletin.” Sorry about that. I certainly didn’t mean to cause a problem.

    That being said, I still think this “we invite only those who are born-again by faith and not currently under church discipline to participate in the Lord’s Supper” is a strange statement. If someone was under church discipline, I would think that they had been informed about the restriction on communion and could be accountable before God without being reminded every week. It’s not a very inviting statement for visitors to read. I would leave it with the person and God. They are not harming others, only themselves, if indeed they needed to be put out of the Church.

    It seems odd for someone to come on TWW concerned about a misstatement in one comment (not even in the actual post). Considering all the problems at SGM, their bizarre blog posts over the past few years, Brent’s docs, the way SGM has treated churches and individuals in their family of churches, and lawsuits, it seems that there are more important things to be concerned about than an errant comment on this blog.

    Again, please forgive the error in my comment. I hope it hasn’t caused anyone to stumble.


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    Bridget,

    I appreciate your forthrightness. If only SGM leaders would follow your example…


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    Deb wrote:

    Dee said:

    “I would have been thrown out within a week of arrival because I ask lots and lots of questions and I have read reports that people in this environment are told that awkward question are a sinful craving for answers. Can you imagine?”

    Sounds like the Gospel According to Warhammer 40K:
    “Questions lead to Thinking.
    Thinking leads to Doubt.
    Doubt leads to Heresy.
    Heresy demands Retribution.
    Blessed is the mind too small for Doubt.”


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    anon 1 wrote:

    “Could it be that CJ is really Chance the Gardener?”

    I love this! Yes! CJ is a celebrity because of sheer force and ambition.

    You do know the joke definition of “a celebrity”, don’t you?

    Someone who is famous entirely for Being Famous.


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    Bridget

    Somehow, I get the distinct feeling that this is how things go in SGM. Find a tiny thing and blow it up to the level of gossip and slander. Then it deflects off the big issues like little, tiny girls being made to forgive their abuser! Good flaming night. Do they not understand this? 

    Now, I anticipate that there may be more of this to come. Pray for all of us that we can navigate being on the receiving end of SGM care and concern. 

    “Again, please forgive the error in my comment. I hope it hasn’t caused anyone to stumble.” Now this gave me the biggest laugh of my day. Thank you. 

     


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    Never Again

    Thank you so much for helping our readers to understand SGM speak. I really, really hope that all of our friends who have been on the receiving end of SGM “love and care” will help all of us who have not been so blessed to interpret this stuff. I am expecting a fair number of visitors from SGM faithful who will proceed to educate us in the SGM way.

    I wonder if they will be able to keep up with the tweets from Rachel Held Evans and Mars Hill pastors, along with Christianity Today articles, showing frank astonishment at the hubris of SGM attempting a First Amendment defense. One thing is for certain. If they go down this road, they will be known as schmucks led by shmoes.


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    Dee:
    A few reasons we’ve stayed so far are that we want to help change things at our church, we love the people at our church, and in spite of everything that’s been revealed in the past 18 months, there *has* been good teaching and fellowship at our SGM church. I’m not saying there aren’t problems, not at all, but some of it is finally being addressed and I am hopeful about some of the good change that’s happening on the local level. Pastors are encouraging the congregation to take initiative in starting ministries within the church, especially focusing on outreach, evangelism etc…things we’ve typically been weak at. They haven’t shown the mission presentation the past two years, but actually took up an offering for Habitat for Humanity which is going to be building houses near our church (and our church is forming a team to help). We talk to people in our church including pastors about the SGM issues a lot. If we hadn’t seen any changes we’d be gone by now. That said, I don’t think all the problems can be undone. For now, we’ll see if we can make a difference.

    I also said “If people that are less aware of what’s going on in SGM start reading here and see false statements about their church, it does fuel their thinking that this is all a bunch of gossip & slander.” I didn’t say *I* thought this was G&S, these are public figures and it’s our church, they affect us so I’m fine with talking about this. But obviously *some* people in SGM think it’s G&S and they might read this blog (I don’t know). And so before anyone jumped to the conclusion about Apex having a list of disciplined people in the bulletin, I just wanted to clear it up since I go there. Just trying to be helpful. Did not mean to come across as nit picky or annoying 🙂

    Bridget:
    No problem! I don’t usually comment here but I read the posts (don’t have time to make it through the comments very often), and if my church is mentioned I take particular interest, that’s all 🙂 I really am concerned about everything else, I just really don’t have time to post and I rarely have anything that would be useful to add anyway.


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    Brad: I don’t know what in the heck “postmodern literary criticism theory” is, but I appreciate your technical interpretations. I’ve come to love them because I always learn something new and usually a new vocabulary word thrown in for good measure. And I’ve learned something else about your comments If you skim, you are likely to miss gems like this:

    When people believe you are erudite, they can convince themselves and others of it. Get a publicity machine behind the nothingness and it soon becomes somethingness, especially when people who might discern or know otherwise stay silent instead of saying anything.

    That is true Bradism right there, folks 🙂 Really, wrap your head around that nothingness that becomes somethingness. 🙂

    Isn’t this precisely what Deb was talking about in her letter to her former pastor: Darlene (Dee) and I went to hear “Mr. Humility” C.J. Mahaney in person at Sovereign Grace Church in Apex this morning. His message was the closest thing to nothing I have ever heard! These poor SGM people don’t seem to have a clue about what they should be hearing from the pulpit.


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    @ dee:

    You’re welcome . . . it was my double entendre for the week 🙂


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    Eagle:

    Don’t be mean, I’m seriously not a koolaid drinker…

    1) If I had to do it again, no I wouldn’t consider an SGM church, but this is my life right now, I’ve been here 10 years, so to be honest it’s not that easy for me and my family to leave, although we’ve considered it and it’s still an option.

    2) I am not defending SGM, I want our church to get out.

    3) I wish they would reconcile, I agree it’s awful. But what should I do, I talk to my pastor and others in the church about it, we could leave but I don’t think that would make any more difference. There was one situation we became aware of at our church (not abuse) with a family that left years ago where they had been hurt by people in our church and I asked a pastor about it. He said they had made attempts to reconcile with them and the family said they had also. I wish they would actually be able to reconcile, but so far they have not. So yes I do bring these things up if it’s a local situation I’m aware of.


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    @ Julie Anne:

    re: all that stuff ’bout postmodern yadda-yadda.

    dee on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 01:45 PM inspired me to riff on something about the near nothing of a sermon that seemed everything, if anything. But that’s the thing … the experience seems to have required more of what the listeners brought to the “banquet” rather than the empty sermonic plate provided to them for their potluck.


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    @ Eagle: I think there’s very little difference between what you’re saying and the attitude, speech and actions of the ultra-passionate defenders of Joe Paterno and others who aided and abetted Jerry Sandusky in his trolling and predation on children.

    There are thousands of them.

    Written from a location very near “Happy Valley,”
    numo


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    @ Lisa: Lisa, no offense, but what you might not be seeing is that “getting out” probably won’t solve anything.

    The entire administrative and “leadership” structure of your church – and all of the others (both in SGM and those that have recently opted out) HAS to change in order for good thing to result. if it doesn’t, then you’re in the same bind.

    I think you will probably be waiting for a LONG time (translation: ’til hell freezes over) for significant positive changes, if you choose to stay.

    My suggestion to you: please get out while you can. it’s all going to implode (is in the process of imploding).

    Signed,
    a 30-year veteran of discipleship/shepherding movement churches (which SGM is, whether they currently use that term or not)


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    @ brad/futuristguy: “Empty sermonic plate”: Brad, you kill me! Great imagery and coinage!!!

    Loved the quote that Julie Anne picked out, too – it gave me a much needed laugh earlier today.


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    @ Bridget: I did a double take when I saw that phrase! ; )


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    @ Eagle: Dude, I *wasn’t* calling you out, i was agreeing with you!!!


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    @ Eagle: What I was trying to say is that the SGM defenders sound SO MUCH like the defenders of Joe Paterno and his pals, it’s not funny.

    There are *many* of them up here, and they are extremely vocal. It sickens me in the same way that you’re sickened by the stuff SGM has been pulling. (I have friends who are 8still* in SGM churches… couldn’t agree with you more. I worry about them and want them to get the hell out of there!!!)


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    I haven’t been directly affected by SGM and thought myself pretty far removed from its effects. But this post was fascinating and brought home some connections for me. I have a family member who has been deeply into John MacArthur’s teaching for some time, and I have watched as they have done some extremely dishonest things while at the same time exuding a spiritual elitism and disdain for anyone outside their group. I’ve watched this person transform from gracious to changeable and sometimes cruel, and from compassionate to an almost sociopathic lack of empathy at times. So something clicked with me when I saw that MacArthur had endorsed Mahaney’s book, and that recent posts on his blog regarding church membership include on titled “membership is submission.”

    I’m beginning to think that the effects and influence of Mahaney and his ilk are pretty widespread in conservative Christian circles.

    Keep at what you are doing on this blog: speaking honestly and boldly. Don’t be intimidated. I think the good that comes from your shedding light on what people want to hide and calling leaders to account will be more far-reaching than you or I can imagine.


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    @ Eagle: No worries, Eagle!


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    “Belly Blobs: Wouldn’t It Be Loverly?”

    HowDee YaAll,

    Harboring pedophiles, gagging their victims, is a separation of church and state issue?

    What?

    Try separation of sanity & soul issue? SGM, you have lost your sanity, and sold your proverbial soul in your prideful best place on earth rhetoric. How is that working out?

    hmmm…

    …on thy belly thou shall go the remainder of your dayz?

    (grin)

    …wouldn’t that be lovely?

    hahahahahaha

    hum, hum, hum…

    …Someone’s  rest’in on my Father’s right hand,
    Warm an’ tender as ‘e can be. ‘who takes good care of me!, 
    Aow, that now is so loverly?
    Loverly, loverly, loverly, loverly…

    S“㋡”py


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    I’m still fascinated with your visit to the Apex church! Thanks to Lisa for explaining that three women who go there do wear veils. When I heard you say this before, I wondered if they were visiting from elsewhere, because the only person I ever saw wearing a veil in an SGM was the mother of a member who came every now and then, and sometimes wore a fabulous black mantilla more suited for flamenco dancing than church in a middle school, simply because she was dramatic and not an SGMer.

    We knew the original pastor of the SGM church in Apex. He was as genuine as it comes, though I’m sure no one was immune to the kool-aid. But since the good guys don’t last long in SGM, he was de-gifted because of a child’s ‘rebellion’, whatever that meant. He was gone long before your visit. His wife died from a brain tumor. The only time I saw the Apex SGM church was when the funeral procession passed by on the way to the cemetery across the street, which seemed ironic at the time. I was surprised to see that it was housed in what looked like a former school building and seemed awfully small compared to the grand warehouse-store edifices SGM seems to favor.

    The SGM we went to for far too many years never wrote a word about communion in the bulletin. When we first attended, they passed out the grape juice in small paper cups, and people were told to take communion in family groups, including children, or with people in their home group. I was gone by the time restrictions on communion were in vogue.

    The change in communion directives is one of the things that shows the morphing of PDI into SGM into hyper-craziness. I believe they were already hyper-authoritarian back in the PDI days, but were very careful to hide it behind the gossip/slander veil.

    When we first heard that there was a new church in town that looked attractive to us, we’d never heard of PDI or Mahaney. We talked with some people in our PCA church about it. They’d been involved in the Fairfax PDI church as college students. I was really surprised to find out they weren’t going to run over to the new church and hang out with their old buddies. But years later they told me that when they were engaged to be married, one of their best friends, a very well-known pastor’s wife (writer of books/videos on parenting that were later removed) told them that the Lord had told her that they were not to get married. Seriously. I am not making this up. In the end, the husband of this woman was the pastor who married them. How crazy is that?

    If PDI people were running around making these kinds of strange heebee-jeebee statement and labeling them them prophecy, no wonder the head honchos wanted to minimize the charisma and accentuate doctrine. The problem is, they didn’t get either one right.


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    The shepherding idea, the “God told me you are not to get married” stuff is beyond me. Here is a bunch of super-spiritual nutcases telling you not to gossip, but basically telling you that God has somehow gossiped about you by telling an uninvolved third party to give you a message that He didn’t bother to give you first-hand.

    What person in their right mind would want to live with the consequences of affecting someone’s person life in such matters?

    There are times to speak up about issues, and I do not discount the work of the Holy Spirit. But somehow, this kind of ‘prophecy’ seemed to be nothing more than plain ol’ meddling.


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    @ Nickname: Yes, it’s totaly hyper-spritualized shepherding insanity.

    I know who you mean, too. I have friends who were married by that guy, back in 1985. They’re still members at FFX. 🙁


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    @ Nickname:As for PDI being nutty and all over the place, yes, it was. No question whatsoever.


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    Dee, on Sunday you asked, “Could it be that CJ is really Chance the Gardener?”

    I’d like to provide some perspective and history, to help everyone understand how it could be possible, that the man who talks and acts in such silly ways today could ever have commanded the rapt and eager attention of audiences composed of thousands of intelligent people.

    Way back in the early days of TAG and CLC (mid-70s through mid-90s), CJ Mahaney really did have things to say, and the Holy Spirit used him remarkably in changing my life and the lives of many others. He used many Scriptures to advance and support his points.

    He wasn’t sin-sniffing then, but challenged his listeners in an exhortative way to understand Bible times and Bible characters through scripture. Many times he told us that he tried to imagine actually being a part of the Bible story he was teaching – being with the disciples as real men who really couldn’t understand what Jesus was talking about (without the Holy Spirit’s help). He challenged us to live according to scripture and not according to pop culture or dead religious tradition.

    I’ll never forget what he said at the end of one TAG meeting – something close to this:

    “You all feel great right now, after worshipping God and listening to an encouraging message. But what about tomorrow? You’re going to wake up with a whole new set of emotions, and by the end of the day, you’ll have another set. By Friday, will you even remember how you feel tonight? We can’t run our lives on emotions – on how we feel about ourselves or God – we need to know and believe what scripture tells us about God and ourselves.”

    Now remember, this was back before the sin-sniffing period of the mid-90s through now. This was when we sang the wonderful song based on Peter’s letter (1 Pet 2:9):
    ————
    We are a chosen race/A royal priesthood/A holy nation/A people for God’s own possession!

    That we might display his excellencies/that we might display his excellencies
    He has called us out of darkness/Into his marvelous light/That we might display his excellencies!
    ——–
    CJ’s teaching and theology was very positive about God and about ourselves in Christ. And he had a lot to be positive about: though the charismatic revival peaked around 1970 with the Jesus Movement in California, in truth there were many, many people still being baptized/filled with the Holy Spirit, and getting a totally different understanding of what life in Christ could be, than what we’d grown up with.

    I’d been a Christian, born-again through Billy Graham’s ministry in the early 70s, but attending a dead Baptist church and feeling hopeless – because as I read my Bible I couldn’t see any way to make the New Testament experience happen in my own life, and didn’t know any Christian who was. Until a friend shared tapes of Larry and CJ teaching at TAG, I didn’t know it was possible to have a serious walk with God and see God touch and change people’s lives radically. But then, to my great surprise, it happened to me after I began going to TAG every Tuesday night! First God began doing wonderful things inside me to remove the despair.

    Then, after two years of attending TAG but never seeking out the baptism of the Spirit (too afraid!), God did it himself to me, one day when I was alone praying. I was totally astonished, then I was filled with joy and a powerful hunger to read the Word.

    The other thing I want to say is that people have to remember what US culture was like in the mid-70s. We had just come through a terrible period of social, cultural and political turmoil – assassinations, Vietnam War and protests, cities ablaze with race riots, gas lines from the energy crisis, economic difficulties and wage-and-price controls, and the generation gap of rebellion against our WW2-generation parents. Celebration of fornication and adultery was being thrown in our faces everywhere – within a few years the Best Movie Oscar went from The Sound of Music (about a singing nun!) to Midnight Cowboy (about a gigolo and a bum in NYC). There was Marxist protest around the world – from Paris’ Danny the Red, to Tom Hayden and the SDS in Chicago, and the violence of Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown and the Black Panthers. Oh, and the Cold War was in full swing, as well.

    For many of us growing up at the time, the mainline/denominational churches had nothing to offer us that would help us understand and cope with the rapid and frightening changes underway in the society. For me, finding TAG with its scripture-filled worship songs, scripture-based teaching that emphasized our practical response to the gospels and other New Testament writings (especially Acts) and the life-changing presence of the Holy Spirit was a life-saving mercy of God.

    When I started attending TAG, CJ and Larry were in the middle of a long series entitled “The Unshakeable Kingdom” in which they contrasted the Kingdom of God being built in our generation, versus the built-on-sand culture that was changing radically and no longer supporting godly/biblical values anymore. They were calling us out, to enter the lifeboat of the Kingdom, and reach out to the unsaved.

    Just out of high school, desperately seeking evidence of God being real in today’s world and seeing little around me, the teaching, worship and testimonies that I heard weekly in TAG were truly life-saving and life-giving to me. And God began to change me, even before he suddenly baptized me in the Spirit. I began to be able to control my tongue and my temper, as never before, for instance. That was something I’d despaired of ever being able to do, and here it was happening, without effort on my part, as I attended TAG weekly and began to pray and read scripture with hope for the first time since becoming a believer.

    All this to say: whatever CJ is now, he didn’t start out that way. In 1975, he was NOT Chance the Gardener – empty, clueless, speaking fluff to people too stupid to see through it. God’s power and wisdom was in CJ’s teachings, God’s joyful and healing presence was very much present in TAG meetings, and was still definitely there in the early years of CLC. This, despite all the bad stuff we now know was already going on in CLC!

    I think it was not until CJ rejected what the Holy Spirit was doing in 1994-96, and focused solely on “The Cross” and “indwelling sin,” that the Spirit finally lifted in Ichabod fashion. This is the point I tried to make, in the blog comment I wrote in 2006 that pre-dated and anticipated SGM Survivors, which Kris reproduced on this early page of her blog:

    http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=5

    Now (at this time), however, I believe that because he has hardened his heart against the Lord, CJ is cut off from God’s Spirit and wisdom. He is reduced to defending himself and saying empty things, with wild motions and emotions taking the place of Spirit-led, Christ-centered, scripture-based teaching.

    It’s a sad thing, and ironically so similar to the end of Solomon’s life. (It was about Solomon’s ungodly end that CJ was trying to teach, on that Sunday in 1994 in Missouri, when the Spirit broke out in the congregation with holy laughter, and CJ was unable to continue his message.) If only he will humble himself before the Lord, and renew his relationship, before it is too late.


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    WOW Don! What an incredible testimony! Thanks for sharing about the history of TAG. I am grateful for your outspokenness in 2006 – the year the Young, Restless and Reformed movement received public acclaim in Christianity Today.

    It’s seven years later, and the movement doesn’t look nearly as godly as it once did. Cracks are forming in the foundation, and the entire movement may collapse under the heavy weight of deception and dishonesty.

    May God’s will be done!


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    Lisa wrote:

    There was one situation we became aware of at our church (not abuse) with a family that left years ago where they had been hurt by people in our church and I asked a pastor about it. He said they had made attempts to reconcile with them and the family said they had also. I wish they would actually be able to reconcile, but so far they have not.

    Lisa, I would encourage you to go to those individuals and ask them what happened. You will probably find that their stories are very different from the pastor’s version. That has been my experience in talking with people who left the SGM franchise of which I am a former member (CrossWay Charlotte). While I was in, I never really questioned what the pastors told us. That is, until Brent’s documents were published.


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    Lisa, to add on to my comment above – We were always told, whenever there was some kind of issue with somebody, to not talk amongst ourselves about it, but to go to a pastor with our questions. I’m pretty sure that is standard procedure in all SGM franchises. Do you see how devious that is? “Come to us and we will tell you what happened.” They want to control the flow of information. It’s a sick environment and I am so glad to be out of it. It’s been almost a year and a half, and I thank God, literally, verbally, almost everyday that I am free.


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    Lisa

    I will push back a bit. You said ” there *has* been good teaching.”

    Your pastor is one of the “big cheeses” of SGM. He is supportive of the structure and by virtue of his presence in SGM central is part of the effort to vigorously fight those who have been harmed. You can promote “good teaching” all you want but the results of said teaching are many, many people who have been deeply and irrevocably harmed by the system.

    I would respect your church if your pastor had made a stand and gotten the heck out of there. He hasn’t. He still rubs noses with the shmoes. The fact that your church stays in the system says far more than any words you could ever say about “good teaching.”

    Finally, you do have chance to address the victims here. Families who have been deeply wounded who we love and care for, far more than the SGM system which you support with your money and time. We have a prime directive here. First you address those who have been hurt, including little children. Then you are welcome to say why SGM Apex is not like all the others which seems to be a theme of all the churches which are staying.


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    Our readers might be interested to know that Lisa’s pastor is the Chairman of SGM’s Polity Committee. 

    Here is a link to a letter he recently wrote to Sovereign Grace pastors, which was prominently featured on the SGM website.

    Phil Sasser:  Polity Update and Timeline

    I thought this was interesting:

    “January 31st ends the formal 90-day period of examination and feedback.”

     


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    Nickname: My husband is from a Mennonite background, so I’m used to seeing head coverings. The couple ladies in our church just wear a scarf or something, not a lace doily kind of covering. Our building was an old sewing machine assembly place or something like that. We did add on to the building, but the property isn’t all that big and I think 400-500 people would be the max this building could support with one service (which I think our pastors prefer to stick with one service).

    Numo: I would see our church leaving SGM as a first step…you’re right that it wouldn’t “fix” things. But I do see things changing for the better. We ran the Single & Parenting program and they’re setting up a DivorceCare group this spring. We didn’t often reach out to people in those kind of situations before.

    Dee: You said “First you address those who have been hurt, including little children. Then you are welcome to say why SGM Apex is not like all the others which seems to be a theme of all the churches which are staying.” The only reason I explained why I’m still at Apex is because you guys asked 🙂 I feel awful for the those who’ve been hurt. I have reached out to a couple of them that I personally know (not physical or sexual abuse, but hurt nonetheless).

    Moniker: I talked to those involved, not just the pastor. There were some bad choices, things handled badly really on both sides, but not the deception you see in some of the bigger stories like in the lawsuit.


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    Lisa wrote:

    I talked to those involved, not just the pastor.

    Good for you, Lisa. Back in the day, I would never have done that. I foolishly believed everything the pastors said, and I was afraid that I’d be gossiping since I wasn’t “part of the problem or part of the solution.” So I just kept my wondering to myself, usually believing the worst about those who had left.


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    I have a lot of sympathy for Lisa, especially given her willingness to show up and contribute to this discussion.

    For those asking her why she isn’t leaving her church- this is NOT an easy thing to do. A lot of us know exactly how hard it can be to leave a church (some of us against our will)- a lot of times our entire social circle is built around relationships at our church. Losing that is not something anybody can do lightly.

    In fact, so much of real church is what happens in the individual relationships, not the sermon, music, or what’s going on in the leadership. I realize at some point we all have to make decisions about where we’re going to stand and sometimes the right place to stand requires a cost, but for most of us it took a process of coming to understand where the right place to stand is. Challenging is good and healthy, but I think it’s also important to show compassion as we dialog with willing and open hearts.

    And it’s pretty clear to me that Lisa did not come here trying to make complmentariansim a primary issue- as I understand it, Dee and Deb are all about not making secondary issues primary issues, so unless eglitarianism has become a primary issue, it doesn’t seem like it’s within the spirit of the blog to push Lisa on this point and force her to defend something she doesn’t feel strongly about.

    Hopefully those who attend SGM churches will start waking up to the issues of the church and taking a stand with the survivors. It’s not going to happen overnight- it’s a process and TWW is a huge part of it with their sounding of the alarm.


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    Eagle wrote:

    He’s not just focusing on the issues of SGM.

    He’s got an agenda that’s for sure. My hunch is he’s here as part of his ‘service,’ quite possibly as a member of Opus Dei, which would explain all his bizarre anti-communism remarks. Whatever the case, he’s pinged my radar.


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    Lisa

    I think it is good for you to hear what those outside the church think when they hear the despicable things that have been alleged in the lawsuit. If you are truly concerned about SGM and want to make a difference (which I do not believe is possible) then it is time to take on and accept the raw emotions of others. If what is presented in those documents is true, and I, for one, believe it to be so, then what Eagle says is not mean. It is understandable. 

    If what is in the documents is true and what is alleged about SGM in the lawsuit is true,and I believe that it is, can you imagine any loving and kind person staying in such a system? I have to admit, it strains me to do so.

    I love children. I used to do child abuse and neglect followup in the town that I grew up in. I had trouble sleeping at night and, in time, got burned out. I see the image of God in their little eys. I do not view them as potential objects of wrath in which to beat the sin out of them. I could not stay one minute in such a church or give money to that church and denomination (I don’t care what anyone says, I believe that SGM functions like a denomination-complete with apostles until a couple of years ago), that would allow such things to happen.

    SGM is not the only one who has allowed this response to child sexual abuse to occur.  Other groups have done so as well. And we write about those here as well. Our hot button issue is child abuse-sexual and otherwise along with domestic violence. 

    As for the Larry Tomczak/CJ Mahaney little deal-Both of them remind me of the fights that go on (or used to go on) in the Mafia. Kiss each others cheeks and then send in the hit men. 


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    Lisa,

    You mention a parenting program in your 9:28 post, what materials/publications did they use and when (if you don’t mind.)

    TIA!


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    Jeff S.,

    I, too, feel for Lisa and appreciate her participation here and agree that comp/egal is a secondary issue just like parenting is a secondary issue and I agree that it seems to be a secondary issue to Lisa but (and, as you might imagine, it is a big but) the leadership at SGM have turned gender roles into a primary issue.


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    “Whatever CJ is now, he didn’t start that way”

    I have to disagree with this. People like him are very good at manipulating others and there were signs early on. Satan himself comes as an angel of light.


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    Jeff S wrote:

    For those asking her why she isn’t leaving her church- this is NOT an easy thing to do.

    This is how it goes:

    1. Open door.
    2. Walk throw door.
    3. Turn, smile, blow a kiss and say, “Good riddance!” as you walk away

    Get your badass on. Nothing to it but to do it.


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    Evie wrote:

    Jeff S wrote:

    For those asking her why she isn’t leaving her church- this is NOT an easy thing to do.
    This is how it goes:
    1. Open door.
    2. Walk throw door.
    3. Turn, smile, blow a kiss and say, “Good riddance!” as you walk away
    Get your badass on. Nothing to it but to do it.

    4. Lose almost every friend that you have.

    Please don’t belittle how difficult a thing this is. I did not leave by choice, but it was one of the most painful experiences of my life.


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    Debra Baker wrote:

    Jeff S.,
    I, too, feel for Lisa and appreciate her participation here and agree that comp/egal is a secondary issue just like parenting is a secondary issue and I agree that it seems to be a secondary issue to Lisa but (and, as you might imagine, it is a big but) the leadership at SGM have turned gender roles into a primary issue.

    I understand- but that is a question for the leadership, not for her. She is an adult who can use her own mind, and apparently does.


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    Those of you who weren’t around in the beginning of our blog missed some really great posts that are buried deep within the archives.  We really need to bring them back!

    In my attempt to do so, here is our very own “Dr. Jon” addressing how to leave a hyper-authoritarian church.  Enjoy!

    Hyper-Authoritarian Churches – There Must Be 50 Ways to Leave


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    I think both Evie and Jeff S.’s comments are valid. Voting with your feet is probably the healthiest thing to do, but as Jeff said, if you have years of relationships tied up, that’s a huge emotional toll. It’s not just your relationships, it’s the relationships of the children – 10 years – that’s a lifetime to children.

    I don’t know how this church treats members who leave, but in our situation, there was far more destruction that occurred after leaving than when we stayed. It makes me think that those who have remained may be realizing this and that’s why they stay.

    One thing to consider, Lisa – I knew my church was bad when I was there. After I left and after months and even years of processing what went on, it became evident that it was far worse than I had originally thought. If there is any thought that your church is unhealthy, I hope this motivates you in the right direction, Lisa. My heart goes out to you, though, especially considering the relationships that might be severed. That’s very painful.


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    @ Jeff S:
    It can be extremely difficult, and I think that’s why a lot of people stay in spite of the problems they see.

    For me, leaving showed me just who my real friends were. Not that there was any animosity. There was just nothing because my relationships were all based on meetings and projects. It was fake.

    One of my friends who left after experiencing spiritual abuse at the hands of CrossWay pastors told me “It’s like going through a divorce, and your husbands gets all the friends.”


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    Julie Anne wrote:

    One thing to consider, Lisa – I knew my church was bad when I was there. After I left and after months and even years of processing what went on, it became evident that it was far worse than I had originally thought. If there is any thought that your church is unhealthy, I hope this motivates you in the right direction, Lisa. My heart goes out to you, though, especially considering the relationships that might be severed. That’s very painful.

    This- so very much this. I left my church because I had to (not under discipline, but because I was made to feel unwelcome enough that I knew I had to leave), and I wished so very much I’d left earlier (as I’d been advised by long time friend who I ignored). Waiting until it becomes personal hurts a lot more 🙁


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    I’m replacing this with your #4, Jeff:

    4. Honor God. Seek first the Kingdom.

    Doesn’t to say God will add to your life the things you need? “All these things will be added unto you…”

    It has to be an expression of your faith. I will say it takes courage and conviction.


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    Jeff, you didn’t leave by choice?


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    Moniker,

    I, too, learned A LOT about who my true friends were when I left my church fellowship four years ago.  One of the most hurtful things was being de-friended by my pastor’s wife on Facebook.

    Yes, it was painful and therapeutic at the same time.  I have put my hand to the plow (TWW) and never look back.


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    Evie wrote:

    Jeff, you didn’t leave by choice?

    I depends on what you mean by choice. I was fired from my position as the music leader and was continually called to repentance during my personal interactions with members and leadership. To me, I really had no choice but to leave. But I wasn’t barred from attending.


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    I’d say that’s booted out. Ouch, Jeff. That must have been really painful.


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    The interaction with Lisa here gives us insight into how deep and pervasive the cognitive dissonance can go in cultic organizations. I will be the first one to admit that SGM has attracted the educated middle classes even though education was not an issue for their leadership. So what was the draw? We have to take into consideration the emotional component of why educated people would hand over so much power over them to leaders. Well, first of all, it is not crouched in those terms at all. These are people who “cared” for them. Love bombing works.

    There are a few red flags in Lisa’s very ironic comments which reflect the sort of “totalitarian niceness” we see in many of these sorts of organizations that go beyond the surface where the real evil of the organization lies for those in the system who have NO idea. They would never willingly support evil. That is why it is a closed system.

    One comment in passing was the “good teaching” reference. There are several reasons why we can know NOW from documents and many first hand accounts across the SGM spectrum that the ‘good teaching’ and all the other aspects of the SGM family….the focus, teaching, topics, events, etc…… orchestrated from on high. We also know that Lisa’s pastor was on the recent polity committee and believes in the hierarchical structure that has allowed SGM to operate as it has for years. (It is really no different if you analyze it). This polity structure really works for folks who check their volition at the door but it sounds like they have been given more input. It is smoke and mirrors.

    So, “good teaching” really boils down to the cult tactic of “Doctrine over people”. Good teaching is more important and valued over the systemic treatment of people.

    But we know that “good teaching” results in LOVE and putting people before the brands image or anyone’s career. “Good teaching” would not result in what we have seen with the pew sitters totally ignorant of how their money has been used or the evil of their leaders, system wide.

    Another red flag was up earlier when Lisa mentioned that she wanted to correct something in the blog post so that it would keep SGM people from thinking TWW was about “gossip and slander”.

    This is a huge red flag. It is the mantra of cultic systems. While many of us here think of readers as adults who can discern, SGM has no such thinking. In fact, they do not know the definition of slander or gossip. It is simply a mantra used to dismiss or deflect from serious problems. And it is always used for systems that operate as closed systems which has been SGM’s SOP for a long long time.

    It is Lisa’s normal. But that is no excuse.

    So what should be normal? Is it the folks that speak out and make a ruckus over abusive systems? Would normal be that SGM pew sitters are so appalled by what they find out about how their system operated that allowed such things to go on for so long that they are broken by what they have believed and supported? They rush to aid victims and feel completely free to rebuke the leaders who have used and supported the system. They refuse to give one more penny to the system or support any aspect of the system for fear they are covering for more evil.

    Thankfully there are those who have left SGM who have done just that, and I am honored to have conversed with a few who are really going deep with what they believed and why and are finding freedom in Christ and brokenness for the victims.

    Why doesn’t that happen more, though? I have my theories but they are too long to get into here. What I have written sounds mean, I know. But nothing is “meaner” than children being molested, friends. There are always going to be evil people who molest children. BUT…..what makes that so easy for them to do is all the folks who look the other way, work hard to suppress the truth, and those who spend time defending a system that made it easier for the abusers, perverts, etc.

    That is the part of evil I will never be able to fathom.


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    Lisa,

    I will try to do as Jeff S. has suggested and be patient and understanding…

    I’ve shared my story here in previous posts of how my husband, our four children, and I were expelled from our SBC church for exposing a predator who was in leadership (deacon/SS teacher/bible college student who preached and prayed at the pulpit regularly).

    My husband was a SS teacher at the time of our expulsion, and our class requested a meeting with us. We met in the home of a couple who were friends with some of the couples in our class but who were in the predator’s SS class. We answered every, single one of their questions without identifying the victims. As much as possible, we gave them graphic details of everything we knew and every conversation we’d had with the victims, one of the victim’s mother, the predator, the predator’s father-in-law (also a deacon), and our pastor.

    We encouraged them to take a stand and do what is right. We offered to meet for bible studies, while they were looking for another place to worship or taking a break from church. We asked them to call us and keep us updated on their plans.

    No one called. No one left the church. We didn’t hear from a single, solitary soul (not even the deacon assigned to our family). UNTIL… the pastor began gossiping about one of the women in our SS class. Long, bizarre story. It was only then, when she and her family experienced hurt and pain at the hands of church leaders, that their eyes were opened and they left the church. This woman reached out to us then and apologized for not taking a stand and doing the right thing before.

    Since then, other families (including a deacon and assistant pastor) have left the church for various types of abuse and betrayal by church leadership. But most of them are still there. They pretend nothing happened. Or they lament the problems in the church but continue to sit in those pews and support the church financially because of their personal investments there (the children’s and youth ministries, the “fellowship”, the “good teaching”).

    At the grocery store and elsewhere, I’ve run into folks who are still at the church. Some of them literally hide from me in the store aisles or hurry out of the place pretending not to see me. A couple of them have approached me and told me they’re appalled at what the predator did; they tried to convey compassion toward his victims and and my family for being thrown out because I was one who exposed him.

    But the bottom line is this: If you’re willing to get dressed on Sunday morning, park your car in the church parking lot, walk into that church with a smile on your face, escort your children to their SS classes, and sit in those pews to listen to “good teaching” by a man who continues his alliance with predators and those staying silent and covering up abuses, you’re not taking a stand for innocent victims. Your allegiance is manifest by where you are and where you’re taking your family. I don’t care how great the teaching is. I don’t care how great the choir sings. I don’t care how great the fellowship is. I don’t care how great the children’s and youth ministries are. I don’t care how long any of those people have been members of that church. When you put your place in the church community, the ministries, and the teaching and worship experience above the well-being of children; when you turn a blind eye to the abuses, deception, cover ups, and alliances of corrupt leadership, you’re just as guilty.

    I agree with Dee who said:

    If what is in the documents is true and what is alleged about SGM in the lawsuit is true,and I believe that it is, can you imagine any loving and kind person staying in such a system? I have to admit, it strains me to do so.


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    Agree with everyone expressing the great difficulty associated with leaving these churches.

    Yes To Jeff’s #4, you will lose all of those friends.

    Yes, it will be like a divorce with the SOB husband getting all the friends.

    And Jeff was forced out but his abusive pastors were just real good at their own game.

    In my opinion, schmucks that would defend pedophilia with the first amendment to the constitution are cunning linguists. Evil but cunningly evil.


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    Lisa has been at her church for 10 years? Yes? Wow, I see both Jeff’s points and Evie’s. I was at my church for two years and leaving ripped my heart out. And the slow decline of relationships falling by the wayside afterwards, was even more painful. But I had to leave.

    Lisa, staying there IS supporting the system. But you must first recognize that it is systemic. If you believe and only see that these things are incidental, then it will never occur to you that the entire system is flawed from its inception, therefore, cannot be repaired. A wise friend would always tell me never to try and rationalize something that was irrational from the beginning. You can’t put back together something that was never in the first place.

    There’s a lot at stake here for you. I understand that. I”m glad you are here and you are engaging the conversation. It seems that your curiosity is peaked a little. I hope that what you learn here grows in your heart in a way that those silent whispers become clanging cymbals and you cannot ignore them any longer. Overcoming the fear of leaving won’t happen while you’re there. It is simply a process. And there are very real things at stake here–relationships, commitments, investment of time, money and life. That is a lot to lose. But what is more to lose in all this is your soul, your spirituality, your well-being and that of others.

    At the end of the day, one must ask God for the courage to do the hard thing that is the right thing to do. Choosing well and choosing life isn’t always easy. It just isn’t. Had it not been for this community here, I’m not sure what I would have done. If Dee hadn’t let me call her at times where I was frustrated and cry to her; or write her and Deb emails needing comfort; and Numo writing me; and Eagle meeting me to say hello and share our stories. And all the many people on the Survivors blog who encouraged me as well… God does provide, and his providence is innumerable.

    I know how hard it is to believe that your pastor and men you have trusted would know of or do such things. My pastor was Mark Dever. I had a hard time believing he would support a man like CJ. I still have a hard time with that. But ultimately, I had to look at the reasons why I would have chosen to stay, and the reasons why I needed to leave. Many of the reasons to stay were about my comfort; about avoiding discomfort and negativity; about avoiding alienation and the significant loss of relationships. But you know, what was it worth anyways if people who couldn’t understand my pain and issues and take me seriously would simply reject me as if we hadn’t spent two years loving each other and caring for one another? It was my sort of “test the spirits” moment.

    Test people and see how well they support you if you decided to not show up a few Sundays. Test people and see how well they respond to you when you disagree. Test the system that you’re in and see if it really is all the talk that people give; see if they follow it by ACTIONS and not words.

    I didn’t know about people who had been hurt at my church (it was not an SGM church) in the past, but I knew of people who were there in my presence who were being harmed, and it was very difficult. I knew that I didn’t want to participate in a system that ignored, hurt, abused, neglected, and controlled people. Period.

    There is more life in the truth. It WILL set you free.


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    Anon1–

    You are so right. The power of love bombing is unreal. I can often close my eyes and think back to what it felt like. It was indescribable. I had like tons of new best friends. It was like high school all over again–being the new popular kid. And the unfortunate thing, is that it never stopped. So it was really hard to tell who was genuine. After it was all said and done–the answer: two.


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    Lisa –

    I am wondering what you think of the proposed polity that SGM has put forth? I believe both Phil Sasser and Daniel Baker have had a large involvement in crafting the paper and therefore support the positions. I did read them, as well as a paper that Daniel wrote on Apostles (which seems to be his real ideal).

    It may sound a bit blunt, but the proposed polity made my skin crawl. It was layer upon layer of outside (the local church) as well as upward accountability, while the members had no say whatsoever in their local church leadership or issues that would affect them. The polity looked like something from the RCC. It was set up to exclude the gifts and discernment of the very people (church) who are supposed to be served by, and with, the elders in a local church. It was set up in a way that creates an atmosphere of necessary loyalty to those on the governing committees (outward and upward) to ensure elders positions/job. This creates a real dichotomy for elders between the local body, outside governing bodies, and their own personal convictions.

    A little background on myself might shed some light on why I have read so much. I have been in an SGM church for 14 years. This church has left SGM. I can tell you that any churches that were on the fence or had real concerns about the problems in SGM, and voiced those concerns, were minimalized and not allowed at the discussion or on any of those early boards that determined the outcomes of permanent boards. If you were one of the churches that said, “wait a minute,” you were marginalized. And even though I currently attend said church, I don’t know if I will continue attending due to the additional problems I have with the Reformed doctrines (sometimes Neo-Reformed) and their strong bent toward complementarianism. Many of the issues I have doctrinally are due to a realization that what I thought I joined 14 years ago, verses what our church holds to now, has changed. I was slow to keep up doctrinally, while raising a family, as well as just asleep at the wheel. I’m awake now 🙂 I am glad the church has left SGM. If they hadn’t I would have already left said church due to the many issues I have with the integrity of CJ and the other board members, past and present, who have propped him up. I actually have the same concerns with TGC for doing the same, as well as the refusal of all of these men to listen, and HEAR, what the lowly congregant has to say. They only seem able to listen to and hear each other . . . can you say red flags all over.


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    “For me, leaving showed me just who my real friends were. Not that there was any animosity. There was just nothing because my relationships were all based on meetings and projects. It was fake.”

    Bingo. Christian relationships have Christ at the center. Not a church or system. No church brand or system could separate brothers and sisters in Christ. That was a real hard one for me to learn. To unlearn it, we sometimes have to learn what Christianity is really about. It is a long road. And to borrow from Scott Peck, A road less travelled, unfortunately. (Don’t worry I disagree with Peck a lot but also think many people would benefit from reading “People of the Lie” to get a real feel for how what looks to be normal can really be evil)


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    “Lisa, staying there IS supporting the system. But you must first recongize that it is systemic. If you believe and only see that these things are incidental, then it will never occur to you that the entire system is flawed from its inception, therefore, cannot be repaired.”

    Trina, when you add in the strong focus on patriarchy and the fact they have been immersed in it for 10 years, Lisa may not have any choice but to stay. Her options would be limited which might be why she defends her church. She is a stay at home mom who depends on her husband for total support. If her husband buys into the patriarchal teaching and says they are staying, she would tear her family apart to stand on principle. I am not saying this is her situation at all. I am just taking what SGM teaches systemwide, looking at her situation and her defense of the church (pastor on SGM new polity committee is a huge red flag) and my experience with why people might defend and continue to support such things.

    Churches in the SGM system do not teach a “one flesh union” for marriage. They teaching a pecking order of heirarchy in all relationships and then pretend that is a one flesh union in marriage. They redefine. This can become so ingrained as truth that if some women did wake up, they would be stuck or rip their families apart. Some take the opposite tact and defend the system and teaching.


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    Anon-

    I learned that the hard way. At the time I had decided I was leaving, the person I had spent the most time with, that I would have considered a best “friend”, when I said to them I was leaving, immediately, almost with no thought needed, said like a script “yes, I was expecting you to say that. Well… (sighed) we won’t be seeing much of each other or hanging out much anymore.” I said, well, I dont see why me going to another church would change our relationship. We do everything together. I love spending time with you. She replies, “Well, most of what we do is church stuff/events, and you’ll be getting to know the people at your new church and investing there, and I am here, and all of my energy has to be directed here.” I replied, “well, I thought we do many things together becuase we are friends and that’s simply what friends do.” She just kinda looked at me, eyes filled with kool-aid and … that was it.

    I was devastated. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. I think I cried for several months. After all, I had been genuine about my friendship and love offered to this person. I meant every bit of it, and I didn’t see why what church I went to would change any of that. But little did I know, that we were “friends” simply because of the church, not in spite of it. We were “friends” because of an agreed upon doctrine and theology, not because our hearts truly cared for the other. I learned that I was dispensable. And from that, it was a snowball effect.

    In the end, my life is INFINITELY better and I love who I am TODAY. I would never have those people in my life again. They simply were not good enough for me in the end. Talk about casting pearls…


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    “In my opinion, schmucks that would defend pedophilia with the first amendment to the constitution are cunning linguists. Evil but cunningly evil.”

    Good point, Debra. There it is in black and white available for every SGM person to see. Do they have the discernment and independent thinking skills to see it and connect the dots going back a long time?

    The SGM leadership have spoken in their press release who they really are.


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    Anon1–

    I love how you broke down Lisa’s responses above and really picked out what we are seeing here. That was very helpful for me. “Good teaching” like marriage, and the local church, are the idols in this type of “Christian” cult/high-demand control group culture. As you say, theology trumps love every time. It’s like having a spade to win that hand, when everyone else has diamonds. In this culture, it wins EVERY time. Those are your high cards. (Sorry, I was playin cards with the fam last night, ha. BTW, my grandma kicks butt every time and she does slam her cards on the table).

    Reading Lisa’s explanation for why she’d stay, and then what you wrote above about the dependency and the marriage not really being between the two people, makes me entirely sad for her. She is trapped. Even if she had a mind of her own, to do her own will that would be good and right, she cannot. This is when the system you have bought into turns on you. All is hunky-dory until a woman comes to have a mind of her own and the scales fall off. Luckily for me, I didn’t get married in such a system. And I am glad that God allowed me to “suffer the pain of singleness” in it all. Because had I gotten my prayers answered, I’d be Lisa. My ability to make choices for myself would be completely diminished.

    I think Lisa believes she has choices that could be made but is completely unaware that her system wouldn’t allow her to if she REALLY got the guts to leave. What’s even sadder is that in such a system, even in marriage, theology trumps love. And there I thought that what God has brought together let no man… you know… separate?? Maybe there is a footnote in the neo-Cal Bible that says **unless it’s your pastor, CG leader, or theological POV.


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    Trinia,

    Thanks for that heartfelt comment. I am glad this online community was so helpful to you. Yours is an incredible story!  Whenever you bring up Mark Dever I chuckle because we were students at Duke together, although I didn’t know him.

    I appreciate your bringing up LOVE BOMBING.  For those not familiar with the term, I thought it might be helpful to include some references.  We have discussed this tactic here at TWW before.  Perhaps we need to address it again.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_bombing

    http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2008/05/beware-love-bomb.html

    http://www.tolc.org/marks.htm


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    Trina, when you add in the strong focus on patriarchy and the fact they have been immersed in it for 10 years, Lisa may not have any choice but to stay. Her options would be limited which might be why she defends her church. She is a stay at home mom who depends on her husband for total support. If her husband buys into the patriarchal teaching and says they are staying, she would tear her family apart to stand on principle.

    Anon1 – This was true for me at my church. One day I told my husband: “I am done. I cannot go back.” I knew it meant that he would stay with the kids and I would go somewhere else. He asked me if I was really going to give up praise and worship (I played piano and sang). I kind of laughed and said my sanity depended on it. I had never ever gone anywhere other than where my husband/family had gone to church and I got to that point where I realized I was losing myself if I didn’t.

    As it turned out, the implosion at the church happened right around that time, so I never did go to a different church – we all left together. But that is where I was emotionally and that’s a very difficult place to be in a patriarchal setting. Women are stuck emotionally, spiritually, financially, and physically.


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    @ Anon 1:
    I just wanted to add to this. Not sure about SGM, but my former church taught that marriage found it’s meaning in the couple’s relationship with the Lord. They taught that your relationship with the Lord was synonymous with the local church. Therefore, your marriage only found meaning within the church.
    It is extremely painful whether you walk away or are booted out. You essentially begin your life all over again including finding new friends for yourself and your kids. But, I have to say, my marriage is better than it’s ever been. And this is even considering the fact that we are experiencing severe financial troubles, and harassment from my inlaws who are still a part of the church. So, I just want to say that the fear of a marriage falling apart outside of the church is a lie. These churches, I believe, are not healthy for a marriage.


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    Regarding “Good Teaching”- this is one of those things that is really, really tough. I continue to be flooded with emails/FB Status updates/etc. that quote John Piper. If I bring up his views on domestic violence or divorce, usually the answer I get is “Well, I don’t agree with him on that” and they feel that is good enough. The problem for me (and I gather most other commenters here) is that it is hard to see how someone can be worth quoting on ANY topic and have a heart that would say things like Piper does about abuse.

    But here’s the catch: I understand the problems with Piper’s teaching because I’ve experienced the pain of abuse. So far I have encountered very few people who are willing to make a stand on issues of abuse who have not themselves been touched by it in some way. So it’s hard for me to expect those who haven’t experienced it to have the epiphany I never had. I was that ignorant person- I trusted in the leadership that they had good, compassionate, Biblicaly sound answers to questions of abuse and it was not something for me to worry my head over.

    I was wrong- very wrong. And when I found out, I was shaken to the core. But I have sympathy for my old self, because I understand that safe world that I was in where I could trust “good teaching” and remain ignorant of how little those I trusted knew. In some ways I feel my mission is to try to reach the old, comfortable Jeff and make him uncomfortable- to make him ask questions. I don’t want to judge him because the only way he woke up was by experience, but I don’t want to just leave him be either.


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    Deb–

    You are welcome. I really truly mean it all. I do. All I can do is pay it forward because it is a debt I cannot repay.

    You know, when people would see me in public (DC/Nova can be such a small community sometimes), they’d always just kinda look at me funny and the first thing they ask, hey, how are you… and quickly, “So what church are you attending now?” I’m like I’m not. I don’t go to church. Well, the Bible says… then I sorta just tune out. Then I’m like yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen, I am apart of this BEAUTIFUL, amazing Christian community…online. (and then I watch them recoil in horror).

    It’s kinda funny and satisfies my sadistic side. This is like the online dating of church. People think those that do are desperately DESPERATE. The way I see it, it’s the best pedigree of Christians you can find.

    Signed,

    SBF, 35, loves long walks on the beach and romance novels, hardcore #ScandalABC lover


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    Eagle said:

    And lets cut the crap…much of what we talk about here at Wartburg are cults disguised as Christian faith…When you are in a cult people will love you as long as you tow the line, don’t ask questions, walk lock step with the leadership and follow their actions in obedience…The reality is that it is all hanging by a string. When something happens you will learn that all those support systems will abandon you in a heart beat.

    I think they know their support system, their friendships, their community is hanging by a string. Many of them have seen what happens to others who don’t tow the line or leave the church. Fearing – and knowing – that’s what would happen to THEM, they stay. Their investment, their comfort, their support, their community, the “good teaching” isn’t worth losing to take a stand for what’s right.

    I’ve left three churches due to leadership problems/control/abuses. As many are saying here, it’s extraordinarily difficult. Much is lost in the process. I’ve done this as a single person and also as a married person with children. (I was on church staff in one case.) In any case, it’s really tough.

    To be honest, it’s really hard for me to be patient with folks who know there are problems but stay anyway. Why can’t people just do the right thing?


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    Deb–

    ….to add, I’d love to see what happened to the brain, chemically, as one is being love bombed. It has to be like the best drug ever… Intoxicating, ethereal, yet impairing. Side effects: leaky eyes, emotional distress, depression, self-hatred, indigestion, heart-burn, fear, social anxiety, binge drinking, fear of God/church/religion.


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    One thing I will say regarding “true friends”- there were a few individuals who made an effort to stay in touch (and were non-judgmental- maybe even supportive), but at the end of the day, when you aren’t seeing them as often as you were you usually end up growing apart. So much of what binds us together is the bible studies, seeing one another at church and lunch after, etc.

    Certainly none of these were intimate friends (my marriage was such that I couldn’t really have intimate friendships), but I do miss a lot of these people. I still read their updates on FB and such, but the regular interaction is gone, and that’s very sad.

    I don’t regret the loss of any “friendship” with those who were harsh or judgemental with me.


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    Julie Anne wrote:

    I’d say that’s booted out. Ouch, Jeff. That must have been really painful.

    It was, though I must say my church fell far short of taking out a lawsuit against me. Thank you for your empathy, especially for one who knows what it is like to be turned on by a church.


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    “….to add, I’d love to see what happened to the brain, chemically, as one is being love bombed. It has to be like the best drug ever… Intoxicating, ethereal, yet impairing. Side effects: leaky eyes, emotional distress, depression, self-hatred, indigestion, heart-burn, fear, social anxiety, binge drinking, fear of God/church/religion.”

    You might want to spend some time at undermuchgrace.com blog by Cindy Kunsman. She has tons of studies she lists that will give you that information and much more about how smart people are so fooled by these charlatans and false systems. If we do not take the time to understand it, most go right back into another one because the teaching of “I have to be in a church” is so ingrained they never stop to define ‘church’.


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    Wendy wrote:

    To be honest, it’s really hard for me to be patient with folks who know there are problems but stay anyway. Why can’t people just do the right thing?

    ..because, Wendy, it is hard. The “just” in your statement oversimplifies the process. It is not simple. Leaving for me was a year long process. The beginning of my journey was difficult because there were just internal thoughts of my own about things I was seeing. Then I slowly began to investigate more. There was a lot of back and forth in my heart. Then I began to read things that I was frightened to read. But I had no support whatsoever. I hadn’t even found the blogs yet at that point. It was just all me and my conscience and my disbelief that any of that could be God. But here I was, in NOVA/DC, all alone. Without family. No immediate connections. And very sadly depressingly unwantingly single.

    The successful integration of people in high-demand control groups also meant that I had no outside relations from my church. So I knew I’d be walking out the doors into a vast nothingness. Wendy, I have never cried so much. And this was the SECOND time this has happened in my life. The first: when I left the charasmatic AoG church.

    So I appreciate you noting your impatience with people who can’t “just” do the right thing. But please be patient and as loving as possible. Life is HARD. And this crap ain’t in no Bible. There aren’t 10 steps for it. There’s no way out of the heartbreak and discomfort. And you know we humans love avoiding severe hurt, pain and discomfort at all costs. It’s like asking someone to jump through a ring of fire 5 ft long before there will be air, but you must because you’re jumping out of a plane that’s on fire with a parachute you dont really trust on your back.

    This isn’t a “just” do it type of thing, in reality. Yet, it MUST be done and most especially when one is ready. Much courage is needed. I pray courage for all those who need to leave and MUST do so.


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    Jeff–

    Just to clarify, do you mean that as a negative or positive, that your marriage was such that you couldn’t have intimate friendships? If not too personal, I’d like to ask why not?


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    Julie Anne wrote:

    Women are stuck emotionally, spiritually, financially, and physically.

    Julie Anne–

    It floors me that this is what is made so appealing that women can’t see it for what it is. The abdication of self-responsibility to a man, a mere infallible one, is what gets paraded and glamorized that your thinking is turned off, and you salivate at the thought of it. It becomes the chief desire of your heart: to have someone who is the breadwinner, so you can stay home with the kids, and play perfect Christian mom/wife/friend. So you can be one of the haves and graduate from being a have not. And this is the price that is paid: you have sold your independence. And when you need it, it will be so far removed from you, you are out back. I have seen this happen to a few individuals. It is a sad thing to see. It’s crazy how much single women buy into this fallacy, this farce of a life.

    And the thing that’s interesting to me is that when you confront the SGM supporters that come here and to other sites, the first thing they say is “I make this choice. I dont do it because of my church. I just happen to look like the rest of them, but I’m not the rest of them.” And I wonder how truly honest that is? I wonder what this persons interactions are like with the other women? That if these “truths” and perceptions are made available in the context of socializing with the other women in their churches. Or do they gladly perpetuate this idealistic lifestyle?

    How convenient for Lisa that she just happens to be in a church that promotes all of this as law (by their actions, agreements and lifestyle), but that she doesn’t really support it being law. Just by happenstance, she fits within this weird paradigm. Hmmmm….


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    @ Julie Anne:
    Oh, Julie Anne. I guess the effect on a marriage really does depend on whether the couple is in agreement on their view of their church. Your situation is just more evidence of how really damaging these churches are for relationships.


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    ..sorry, I meant “fallible” man. Hmmm… Freudian slip? (apparently, my deprogramming is still in process.)


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    @ Jeff S:

    I can empathize with this. It is difficult to sit in gatherings (Sundays, small groups, friends) and have people quote Piper, suggest his books, and turn foggy eyed over his writing, or have any of Driscoll’s books recommended from the pulpit (just one older one). If you say you disagree with a certain perspective in a conversation, people look at you like you have two heads. I’ve had people be confused that I didn’t seem to know what my church believes. It seems that they thought we all “must” believe the same things. It is almost impossible to be involved with small women’s gatherings because of the way complementarianism is the main focus. The focus becomes your interaction with husband, children, and home, and how you are doing in these areas (boring). If you don’t believe in complementarianism you become a “none” in the eyes of most people and they really just want you to be quiet and not share something that might conflict with the majority beliefs. It is a difficult place to be. I have found myself sitting at gatherings but not participating at all.

    One thing you probably aren’t aware of, Jeff, is what it is like to be a woman in a comp church who happens to not be a comp herself. Your world gets pretty small.


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    BeenThere–

    I’d like to add, “…and for ALL relationships.” Marriages won’t survive it but neither will friendships. Nothing can survive the effects of a cult unless the people are extremely strong-willed and immediately seek outside support.


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    Deb

    You are correct. You do find out who your true friends are when you leave a church. Thankfully, I am still in a Bible study with some friends from my old church. Oops, forgot – they all left as well.


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    Bridget–
    I am sure you may have shared in the past, but I can’t remember. Are you still at an SGM church? Or just a comp church? How do you stay?


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    Trina wrote:

    Jeff–
    Just to clarify, do you mean that as a negative or positive, that your marriage was such that you couldn’t have intimate friendships? If not too personal, I’d like to ask why not?

    A negative. When my marriage ended I realized that I’d been isolated away from any real friends. All I had was my church and work relationships, and most of those superficial at best.

    And by “inimate friendships”, I meant other guys who I knew deeper than just surface level interactions and spent time with one on one. I had none of those.


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    Trina

    They do not really want to know about your “new church.” They want to know which one it is so they can say that their church is better and look at you with pity that you do not understand the Bible as well as they do. Next time, tell them you belong to a great church. Don’t tell them what it is. You are, and always will be, a member of the Body of jesus Christ.


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    @ Bridget:

    No, I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman in a comp church who isn’t comp. I think about it a lot, though.


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    Jeff–

    Thank you for clarifying. Yours is an example that others need to see. I am really sorry that happened to you; and also the experience you noted about interactions always being about you repenting. That is so condemning and unloving. How does one not relate that to God following them around with a belt swatting at you every moment trying to make you say sorry to your siblings? How evil. Is that the “passion” of the Christ who says he loves us?

    Story time: This woman I had developed a friendship with began to date this guy. I saw less of her. Then she got caught up in the CHBC dating–swiftly-headed-for-marriage machine, and well, there was just conveniently never any time for single ‘ole me anymore. With every request for interaction, I got turned down. But later see on her FB status updates, lunch with some super star couple. As I had shared with others my hurts and pains, I was, unfortunately, supposed to sacrifice my feelings because she was getting married and needed to find discplers in these other women. So eventually and ultimately I let the relationship go. I decided I was worth more than begging someone to be my friend.

    Months go by and I watch this person get sucked in. Yet, I discern that her man was a fake: he was controlling, jealous, nitpicky, arrogant and convenietnly a man in a paternalistic church culture. And the problems began. They had SERIOUS problems before they got married. But were never really encouraged NOT to marry. They just put the marriage “on hold.” So months go by, wedding is back on again. I didn’t attend, of course.

    At about 10-12 months into the marriage, they separate with her now sleeping on my couch. Yeah, you know, me… the woman who was booted out of her social circle, no longer worthy of her time. When I heard the things he had done to her, I was horrified. When I heard about the details of the marriage, I was even further horrified. It was my wake up call. It taught me A LOT. I had begun to suspect that many instances and situations like this in the church would always be a hush-hush sort of thing. That it was possible that the shiny newlyweds and already marrieds were hiding things very often; that leadership would hide them to. And that many were often left in the dark about the realities of marriage. Yet, I would say these things particularly characteristic of marriage in this culture.

    I had accepted this woman into my home and cared for her when she had nowhere else to go. I had shown forgiveness and tenderness and support. I cried with her. I was absolutely broken for her. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. But my conscience didn’t let me forget that there was a reason she reached out to me and no one else at her church. Why me? Why not the people who she gave time to regularly.

    So when she was a bit well, I asked her these very hard questions. And she railed against me. It angered her. Shortly thereafter, she left my home. I knew that ultimately, the church would not support her getting a divorce. So there was separation, but ultimately, they got back together again. I knew she truly had no way out. Knowing what I know about their relationship, I would have divorced this man. Period.

    But what was interesting and much like your own situation, at the end of the day, because she was contemplating something outside of what was acceptable (separation/divorce) and also because her marriage was troubled, the other women at the church had begun to avoid her. When I asked other people why, it was kinda hush-hush, but that she was being avoided because the other women in the church felt that shew as not being submissive in her marriage; and that she was not honoring her husbands authority. So she became like this social pariah. She was tainted and no one showed compassion to her cause except for me… the one who left… the one who they gossiped about and said was bitter… Yep, me.


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    Dee–

    Yes, ma’am! You are so right. I didn’t even look at it that way. Hmmm… More weaponry for my arsenal. (insert evil laugh). Okay, sorry. I’m misbehaving. But yes, I agree. dee wrote:

    Trina

    They do not really want to know about your “new church.” They want to know which one it is so they can say that their church is better and look at you with pity that you do not understand the Bible as well as they do. Next time, tell them you belong to a great church. Don’t tell them what it is. You are, and always will be, a member of the Body of jesus Christ.


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    Trina wrote:

    ..because, Wendy, it is hard. The “just” in your statement oversimplifies the process. It is not simple…So I appreciate you noting your impatience with people who can’t “just” do the right thing. But please be patient and as loving as possible.

    Please re-read my comments. I have been there, done that – three times. Hurt, pain and devastation don’t come close to describing what I/we went through and are still going through. As I mentioned, I left a church with serious problems as a single person with zero friends outside of work and church. And since marriage I’ve left two churches (the last one forced out due to exposing a predator).

    In the last instance, the predator (an enormous muscular guy hyped up on steroids, yet much beloved by the congregation) literally jumped my husband on church grounds in front of our children. My now four-year old and six-year old sons talked about him nearly every day for two years. My six-year old son has told us several times that he is afraid _____ (the predator) will come in his bedroom through the window and “get him”. He told us this is the reason he won’t sleep in his own bed. Due to their obsession and fear of this man and the post-traumatic stress incurred from watching their father threatened by him (not once but twice) on church grounds for exposing him, our boys are still in our bed. Yep, still sleeping with us two years later. And I truly believe that the post-traumatic stress of this entire situation is the biggest reason. (They had no trouble sleeping in their room prior.) Just to be clear – they do NOT know the reason the predator threatened my husband in front of them. They just know he is a big, mean, scary man and that the church is something to be scared of too.

    Sooooo… forgive me for not being as patient as I should for people who stay in church systems that abuse children and families and vulnerable people. I KNOW it’s hard. I get that. But it’s not an excuse to remain where they are, silent and complicit.

    Thanks in advance for understanding my perspective too.


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Oh, Julie Anne. I guess the effect on a marriage really does depend on whether the couple is in agreement on their view of their church. Your situation is just more evidence of how really damaging these churches are for relationships.

    You hit the nail on the head. At first my husband and I were not in agreement about leaving whatsoever. When the church situation imploded (our close friend who was on staff at the church was fired), that opened his eyes a bit. When we had 11 hours of meetings (over several days), there was an incident that made him realize that yes, we are probably better off moving on, but he still didn’t completely get it. We still are not in agreement on several things from that church experience. In his defense, I can look back on my progression. There was a time a friend of mine asked me if I considered my former pastor a “wolf” and I said that I didn’t think so. If you ask me now, I absolutely think he is the epitome of a wolf and false teacher who has left a path of destruction. It takes a while – sometimes many years – to see things clearly.

    So imagine with one spouse having a glimpse of clarity about a bad church situation and another spouse oblivious to the problems. That is a huge conflict. What do you do? I posted a link to Raymond’s story on another thread. Spiritual abuse destroyed his marriage. He saw the problem, his wife didn’t – she was on staff at the church and the pastor pulled the wool over her eyes. He still loves his ex-wife and would take her back in a heartbeat. This kind of thing is going on in churches and I don’t know where Lisa is, but it is a very scary place to be when stuck in an unhealthy or abusive church with a spouse who may not see things the way you do.


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    Trina –

    I don’t remember if I have shared in the past. I shared a bit earlier on this thread (link below). My perspectives and doctrinal beliefs have been changing over the last two years — a work in progress 🙂 Although I have been in a comp church for some time, I don’t think my husband and I functioned very much like comps. I think it was detrimental to his well being (pressure wise) as much as mine. It doesn’t “really” promote oneness. It produces over/under, boss/employee, strong/weak type relationship structures instead of two becoming one with both parties bringing their gifts to the relationship. It doesn’t support a husband or wife using their natural gifts if those giftings don’t fit the comp paradigm. It’s problematic to say the least. If you have teachings that then tell you that your giftings are a result of the Fall (not normal) and you really need to adjust your thinking because the Fall = sin, it really screws up people’s thinking.

    @ Bridget:


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    @ Trina: This! (And all your other comments in this thread.)

    Leaving – either on one’s own or by being booted – is a VERY painful process. It has taken me a decade to recover from the worst of it. (And no, I’m not an ex-SGMer, but was in a very SGM-like church.)

    Patriarchy in SGM goes back to its TAG/PDI days. I vividly remember a friend’s wedding at CLC, back in the late 80s. When the “pastor” started talking about roles during the service, I wanted to flee. *All* of the language used was authority/submission.

    So this is not something that’s been cooked up by CJ; it was there from the get-go.


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    Wendy–

    I didn’t address you thinking you had not experienced the pain of leaving. I did read your entire comment. And I do understand that your family has had tremendous pain for it. I know you just want people to leave. But the tone of your statement just came across as unfair. That’s all. But I do understand why you would want people to just leave. I do too. We are on the same team here. I do agree as well that it’s crazy that people stay in an abusive system and stay silent etc. You are so right in that. But Wendy, we still have to be patient for them to have their ah-ha! moment. It was a process for them, and so will be for them. You and I have to wait patiently on the other side of the finish line for people who will eventually cross it. Let’s pray that they do.

    But yes, dear, I do understand your frustration. It is very valid, indeed.


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    @ numo:

    I believe you. However, I believe it was practiced (or not) to different degrees in different churches. Much depended on the church, the elders, and the demographics. I do remember a certain marriage retreat when complementarianism was rolled out in all its glory, along with it’s importance with getting the Gospel right and being a witness to the world (sheesh).


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    @ Bridget: I have friends who are still in both CLC and the Fairfax church, and heard a somewhat milder version of the sermon I just mentioned at my FX’s friends’ wedding back in 1985. It astonished me. (Sermon was preached by Benny Phillips, who officiated at that wedding.)

    So, while I agree with you that regional/local differences are in play, I can also confidently tell you that in the D.C. area, it was in place LONG ago. (I also vividly remember a mutual friend of one of these couples telling me in confidence that she could NEVER be “one of those wives,” c. 1988-91-ish. I agreed then and still do!)


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    @ Bridget: What also astonished me, both then and now: in any ways, my FC friends are far more egal than comp in actual daily life.

    And one of them spent a *lot* of time with me when I was booted from That church – she could see so many of their wrongs in very clear perspective, but is seemingly blind to what goes on in the FX church, to which she’s incredibly loyal. (Though I think the loyalty is to friends, not to the “leadership”… however, she got upset with me once for saying that I read religion blogs, immediately assuming that I meant Survivors and Refuge. I didn’t tell her that I was doing so, only that there are a *lot* of religion blogs out there, because I didn’t want to get into a big fight.)


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    FX, not FC.


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    Numo–
    I’ve heard those things preached at weddings too… and bridal showers… and baby showers. The brainwashing is thorough and deeply entrenched. There is no escaping it. The women must always love, love, love, support, support, sacrifice, sacrifice. But I never really heard women given the advice to honor her own feelings, love herself well, take time for herself OFTEN… You step into that church on any given Sunday and you see a lot of worn out and sad looking faces. A bunch of sad looking little clowns. (Hmmmm… singing Nina Simone, “Send in the Clowns” : ) )

    I’ve noticed, as I look back, that often men were low esteemed type individuals. It’s apparent and interesting the draw of weak men to churches like these. If I were a weak, insecure man, I’d never leave. That place is an emotional and spiritual gold mine.


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    @ Trina: Yes to everything you just said!


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    Trina, you are so right: “life is HARD…There’s no way out of the heartbreak and discomfort.”

    No one specifically told me this, but in years past I just thought if I did all the “right” things both spiritually and in secular life, I would be spared from the heartache and disaster that befall everyone. That was a lie – either from satan or from my own fearful, seeking-ease, seeking-to-get-out-of-life-without-dying, self.

    God was kind enough to be close to me, when he allowed me to suffer just the first twinges of reality hitting. He told me, through a socratic dialogue in my heart, that I was really full of fear and full of pride – that I was trying to avoid pain and also not trusting him to be in the middle of bad things and rescue me. He told me he had never made the “deal” I thought he had made, that would keep me from hardship in return for my obedience and “perfection.”

    That was hard to hear, but actually quite liberating when I accepted it. Actually believing that life was going to be hard – even as a fully committed Christian – gave me peace because I finally believed that it was foolish to try to work all of life around pain-avoidance, rather than around God-presence/obedience/joy.

    Believing that has also softened the blows I’ve felt inside, as I’ve learned more about the suffering that serious Christians endure on a daily basis. Sometimes, they – like Paul – actually see Jesus, who comforts them with his presence and a few words. But they usually see Jesus *after* they’ve already been beaten and abused quite a bit (figuratively or literally). Jesus makes it clear he’s with them in the suffering, but that the suffering is real and, often, something he’s allowing.

    I’ve realized – but wish I didn’t have to – that God really doesn’t care about us having a pain-free life as we do. He doesn’t regard pain as the worst adversary, as we (or just I?) unconsciously do. He regards satan and satan’s deception/bondage as the worst adversary, and God regards being deceived by satan and not experiencing God’s love and Kingdom as the worst thing that can happen to us.

    God is very willing to allow us to suffer, to come into the Kingdom, to grow up into sons, and also to help bring others into the Kingdom. And there’s no whining we can do about this, really – we pray to a Man who is alive after being horribly tortured and murdered. The Man we pray to has scars on his body from the pain he endured for his Father and for us. (I’ll bet his back is a mess of scars, as well, though he didn’t invite the disciples to touch those.) He will love us through the pain, but he will not keep us from all pain. He will give us power to “set our face like a flint” as he walks us toward our own Jerusalem, again and again.

    Then one day, we too will die. Some of us will die painfully, as he did. But he will be there, and the pain will one day end as it did for him. And we will spend eternity, as Jack Deere has said, with Jesus “making it up to us” with the full measure of his love.

    I’m still working on accepting this, but less shocked about it than before.


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    @ numo:

    I was told that because I read the blogs that folks thought I was “taking it too far.” I laughed so hard. Recently, I got a nice little note on FB from a person who is NOT on my FB, reminding me about forgiveness because basically they had seen a comment I had written on a survivor blog.

    My response? “Mind your business, little girl. These conversations are for grown people.” Her response: silence. Da-lete!


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    Trina,

    Thank you for your response. I understand your point. The unfortunate reality is that many never leave. They stay in abusive churches/systems, thereby continuing to enable abuse, deception, cover-up, and complicity.

    You may be familiar with Christa Brown who writes the Stop Baptist Predators blog. TWW has a link to her blog here. I can’t remember if Christa wrote about this or if it was something she and I discussed via emails. She said that she has long wondered why a few of us find the courage/will to leave abusive/enabling/complicit churches and others don’t. She said she wished she could bottle up whatever it is that causes some of us to leave and give it to the rest.

    I think this prompted my controversial question – Why can’t people just do the right thing? I realize the “just” may oversimplify the process, but it’s an honest question. What DOES cause a few of us to leave and refuse to continue enabling the abuse/system? And if we can, why don’t/can’t they?


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    @ Trina: heehee!


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    @ Wendy: I’m not at all sure that there’s any grand, overarching answer to this question.

    However, I know from personal experience that it takes a LOT to start getting past all the cognitive dissonance that one lives with for years.

    I was booted – in a very humiliating way (included shunning) – from an SGM-like church a shade over 10 years ago. Like I said further up, it has taken me 10 years to start feeling like I’m in the clear. I lost all my friends, my entire social support system, my outlet for creative stuff (I’m a musician and was “de-gifted” re. the music ministry) and on and on.

    And yet, they still expected me to attend, and wanted to “send me off” when I left the area. to which my response is, WTF??!!!


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    Wendy–

    I think this clarifies your question, and therefore, entirely changes the tone and really seeks to understand the reality of what we are all going through? “What DOES cause a few of us to leave and refuse to continue enabling the abuse/system? And if we can, why don’t/can’t they?”

    Afterall, if you think back on your situation, how it all came about, did you leave immediately at the first instance of recognizing that things weren’t right? Or did you begin, as a process, to see things more clearly, and then follow with actions? I wanted to point out that leaving is a process for us all. I think also, there may be some correlation between your experience and the swiftness of your leaving: the level abuse is directly proportional to the time it takes you to leave.

    It seems that both you and I had some very direct and hurtful situations happen to us, therefore, influenced our leaving a lot faster. But today, even as I know people who are still there that know my story, they still haven’t left, even though they know about these abuses. Because this hasn’t happened directly to them, I think it will take them longer to leave. I just do. Like you, it pisses me off. Like yeah, why can’t they see? Why can’t they choose? Why are they being such cowards? But it was a process for me, as I would believe it was for you as well. We were fortunate enough to have some very good catalysts.


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    “Masquerade Invitations: Accountability Has Become A March Of Death?”

    Issues? 

    Sovereign Grace, a Ministry that prides itself on having pastors that demand untiring and unquestioning obedience from its members, has now been held up in its proper light by “forces” outside it’s perimeters? These “external accountability forces” are long over due, dontcha think? 

    Hopefully justice will be rendered to those who have demanded these untiring spiritual genuflection’s to the detriment of many a soul. 

    Hmmm…One can only hope!

    What is to be done with these “Spiritual Men?” who have aided and a bedded these individuals and perpetuated, by their assistance’s and the endorsements, -this church dance of death?

    The Reformation, began in 1517 gave the common man a ready benchmark of God’s expectation and wishes for those who are willing to listen to its message, and desires the eternal life Christ came to offer in the New Testament, The Book Of John, chapter six. 

    Jesus, is the Bread of Life?

    He said:

    “Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.”

    They said: 

    “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

    He said:

     “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

    (Jesus Christ)

    “All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.”

    “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

    God has requested the faithful raising up of ministers who would go and tell the people, the genuine truth of what Christ has done  (brought sin’s remedy) and brought to Man (eternal life); to all those God should call.

    This is not an private party, but a clarion call to take this message of hope, to the 
    highways and byways of this world.

    Jesus said in this eternal life would be made available to all who believed in Him. 

    These men in Sovereign Grace Ministries Churches who masquerade as genuine ministers of Christ, as having faithfully brought Christ’s message of eternal life to all in their church buildings is a question with a simple answer.

    No. 

    (no cigar, caugh, caugh…)

    [Not even close.]

    …do not pass the plate, do not believe them.

    They are in a proverbial dance with death.

    Yet…

    God so loved the world , that He gave His only Son…

    And for those who believe in Him, “eternal life”.

    Doesn’t get any better that this.

      (now if you could just get kind folk at listen…)

    hmmm…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYAUazLI9k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    (grin)

    Sopy


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    Side note: TWW is to CJ Mahaney/SGM as Steph Drury is to Mark Driscoll. Discuss.


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    Numo–
    Being obedient in an effed up system won’t save your butt. Ultimately, it is still built to proceed as the monster that it is and will eventually eat you up as long as you are in it. Every dog has its day. Afterall, even the good slaves get beat…eventually. A slave is a slave. Don’t get it twisted.


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    @ Wendy:

    Because it takes a LOT of strength to leave. How about all of the women in domestic violence situations that continually return to their abusers, many whom end up dead? And plenty of these women are staying with no church breathing down their necks telling them to stay. These are women who are faced every day with the reality of abuse and chose to stay- how much more difficult is it for people to take the steps away when THEY aren’t the ones on the line?

    And in case you think I’m at odds with you- I’m really not. There’s a guy who I’ve recently re-established contact with at my old church. He’s a good guy and asking a lot of good questions, but at the end of the day I want to scream “Can’t you see how wrong they were/are? Can’t you see that you sticking with them means you are saying their treatment of me is OK?” Emotionally I get very frustrated and I don’t see how he can’t see what I do, but humility reminds me that once I was there too.


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    Reading all these stories is making me remember a comment one of my conservative Christian friends made to me once, when I tried to express to him why Vision Forum and other patriarchal systems are so abusive and dangerous for women:

    “I don’t know why you care about this stuff so much. It’s not really important, not like gay marriage.”

    The ironic part us that this young man’s father was a porn-addicted NPD pedophile and that this led directly to his parents’ divorce…but to my knowledge, his mother has never told him this. He has NO IDEA that a huge part of the reason I care is because I got to witness the damage his father wreaked on him and his family, and I cannot tell him at the risk of bringing things to light that would (hopefully) completely shatter his view of his father and probably explode our friendship to boot.

    The better question is why he, and most other people in conservative evangelicalism, DON’T care.


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    As I said before, I left three abusive/controlling/unhealthy churches. Three different situations. Indeed, in one instance, there was at least a year-long process, so I have appreciation and understanding for those going through their own process. The other two situations happened much more quickly because of the type of abuse.

    As you said, in the case of child sexual abuse, leaving can happen much more swiftly. And that’s really what I’m getting at, since we’ve been discussing SGM and the lawsuit in this thread – what causes people to stay when they know their church leadership is protecting and defending a predator(s) who has harmed innocent children, is staying silent, and/or has an alliance with those who are protecting and defending predators?


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    @ Trina: Yes indeed.

    You just reminded me of W.B. Yeats’ poem The Second Coming (Slouching Toward Bethlehem.

    Here are a few lines from it (entire poem is at link) –

    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.


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    Hester wrote:

    “I don’t know why you care about this stuff so much. It’s not really important, not like gay marriage.”

    And this is a hugely revealing statement.

    You know, I’m pro-life and I think abortion is murder. But how in the world can the church have any credibility at all caring for unborn fetuses and calling women murderers (some who are in some very difficult situations and many who may not be old enough to be making a real “adult” decision) when it stands by and doesn’t say a word about children being sexually assaulted within its walls.

    If you are going to spend gobs of money and effort on anti-abortion legislation and awareness, you’d better make sure you are taking care of the children every person with a heart knows needs to be protected. Otherwise the pro-life cause just comes off as another way of controlling other people.


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    @ Wendy: One of THE best examinations of these issues that I’ve ever come across can be found in Octavia Butler’s novel Kindred.

    The central character is a black woman, living in LA in the mid 1970s, who is pulled back in time (in a totally believable way) to the plantation where some of her ancestors were enslaved – and where she is also enslaved.

    As time goes on, she starts to become complicit with the system in order to survive, even though that means that she supports many of the abuses perpetrated by the person who “owns” her and her ancestors. Her ancestors are – not so coincidentally – targets of particular wrongs.

    It’s not so much that the character becomes evil – that would be *way* too easy – she doesn’t. It’s that the system starts warping her in the same way it warps everyone else, including the man who ostensibly “owns” her.

    It’s a very gripping read, and just plain superb, imo. I think it has given me some insight into my own situation (being booted) as well as a new – if scary – view of what slavery did to people, and what those who were enslaved did to survive it.

    Highly recommended, and you don’t have to be a sci-fi or fantasy fan to enjoy it. (Though I have to say, it can be quite disturbing to one’s own sense of internal comfort, even to a sense of moral superiority that even the best people struggle with…)


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    Wendy–

    In my mind, they stay in light of those things because they dont think its true. If not that, then (1) some type of fantasy about “change” happening; (2) doctrine over love; and (3) the most heinous of them all: selfishness. Why should I rearrange my entire life and lose all my friends because of something that happened in an isolated two or three events, or 20 ( << see what I did there : ); and (4) it could never happen to me because __________.


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    …and by their fruit, we shall know them. …and by their love for one another… and he who loves his brother knows me, but who does not… and so forth and so on. Apparently, what they truly lack is LOVE. A lack of love would cause one not to leave such a situation. And the circle completes itself: doctrine over love.


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    @ Jeff S: Easy… it’s that old, ugly Us vs. Them mentality in action.

    Because nothing is wrong with Us, you know. *We* can’t be scapegoats; They are the worst people.

    *We* never do *anything* wrong. We are morally superior, they are degenerates at best.

    And it sure saves people the trouble of thinking, doesn’t it?

    [cue Church Lady’s “Superior Dance]


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    Jeff S wrote:

    If you are going to spend gobs of money and effort on anti-abortion legislation and awareness, you’d better make sure you are taking care of the children every person with a heart knows needs to be protected. Otherwise the pro-life cause just comes off as another way of controlling other people.

    So agree with you!


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    @ Jeff:

    “But how in the world can the church have any credibility at all caring for unborn fetuses and calling women murderers (some who are in some very difficult situations and many who may not be old enough to be making a real ‘adult’ decision) when it stands by and doesn’t say a word about children being sexually assaulted within its walls.”

    Actually what seems to be in vogue at the moment is denying the existence of medically necessary abortions. I’ve heard lots of people claim this on my FB lately.

    http://www.thatmom.com/2008/06/06/doug-phillips-poses-threat-to-life-of-homeschooling-moms/

    Given that many of Phillips’ followers aim to have 8-10+ children, how long will it be before a woman with an ectopic acts on this advice and dies from it, thus leaving her husband and 6+ children alone? And who will be responsible (at least in the eyes of God) for bringing about the death of that mother and child? Perhaps the peddler of the potentially fatal advice?

    The fact that Phillips’ motto is “women and children first” makes this all the more disgusting.

    And, totally agree with you about the molestation thing. Protect the children with all your might…until they are born, in which case turn a blind eye when you have multiple witnesses establishing that they are being molested. ?!?!?!


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    Well Jeff–

    That’s the thing with pro-life “cultural” Christianity. We are very busy in the business of telling people not to kill babies, yet, we dont give a schtick once the child arrives on this earth about their care. It’s kinda like how christian culture is so very “concerned” for Africa, yet, won’t even go in their local surrounding communities to help people who are impoverished and marginalized. Why? Cause God dont care bout them there sinners in your urban hood. They are all lost causes anyways. With all their drinkin and weed smokin,and prostitutin. All they do is live off welfare and wanna game the system. Those people wont get much bling on my crown. Now, them Africans are absolutely destitute and are fresh ears for letting you give them a pair of shoes for letting a Jesus into their hearts.

    (please excuse my sarcasm but I had to).


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    Numo–

    Your knowledge always leaves me impressed. You are a like a human Cliff’s notes. Goodness!


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    Trina and Numo,

    Your thoughts are some of what I discussed upthread. Thanks for expounding on this.

    I know there is social psychology involved as well. In our last church, there were numerous folks (I later learned) who suspected the deacon was preying on one of our youth. Classic bystander effect – no one uttered a word to anyone – except me.


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    Wendy, I can empathize with your view. In my situation(s) with the mega industrial complex I never saw covert covering over of any pedophilia, child molestation or rape. I did see lots of adultery, porn addiction, secret gay relationships, power plays, setting people up or ruining people for turf battles, false teaching, cult of personality, etc. And I thought that was real evil.

    When it comes to such things as covering over pedophilia, rape or molestations, I gotta say, that would have been an instant game changer for me. And that is one reason I can see your position. We are talking about the most vulnerable and innocent among us. This is not something to even try and explain away. It is something one gets out of immediately and works to help the victims who were in the same system.

    Many Reformed see all sin as the same. They make no real distinctions. Being angry is the same as murdering someone and God judges both the same. That is why it is so easy for them to come back to the victim with ‘you are a sinner, too”. Which is true but has nothing to do with the situation. Their determinist paradigm makes sure it has something to do with it and only victimizes people over and over. When you combine the patriarchy with Calvinista it becomes especially viscious because God foreordained it. This means the 3 year olds molestation by a professing beliver was part of God’s predetermined plan. We can see how this would really mess people up.

    So, to the poor vulnerable child victims who do not have the capacity to understand or question: God foreordained it, you are a sinner, too! now forgive!

    It is most vile using God as the author of pure evil to excuse evil acts by even professing believers.


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    @ Trina: Oh gosh [blushes and looks at feet]

    Thank you, but hey, I studied this stuff, back in the day.

    *totally* agree with your comment (2:23). it also extends to people who are immigrants and need to learn “survival English.” (And lots of others, of course.) God knows some people seem to “love” uganda enough that they’re willing to try and “help” them pass legislation that makes homosexuality a capital crime. (For those unfamiliar with this – it’s true. I’d be *more* than happy to provide links to all kinds of documentation; it’s especially crucial because it’s happening *right now*.)


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    @ Wendy: Right you are, Wendy! (Sadly; I wish your example wasn’t real, but I know it is…)


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    Numo,

    I agree with Trina – you are like human cliff’s notes. 🙂

    The theme of Kindred seems to parallel how folks get caught up enabling an unhealthy/abusive system. I’ll check it out.


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    @ Wendy: You won’t regret reading it, Wendy, of that I’m certain!

    I would put it up there as a classic, though Butler gets passed over by a lot of “literary” folk because she was a sci-fi writer. (And a black woman, but I actually think the sci-fi thing is what a lot of people in the “literary” world hold against her – have seen it used as an excuse in other cases where books should have been nominated for mainstream prizes.)

    And hey, y’all, I spent *years* working in bookstores. You pick up a *lot* that way!


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    Wendy–

    I think some of our previous experiences in life help too. In my case, I had to stand up to my own father. That really led to me having more confidence in myself as I got older. Counseling and therapy taught me about boundaries and the rights I have as an individual. That also helped me to become confident and stand up for myself. Leaving churches over obvious things that were unhealthy and loosing friends–done once, terrifying. Done again: scary, sad, but not as terrifying. Practice does make perfect : ) Often, these people will not stand up for themselves in situations where they are being abused–especially the women. They are already beat down and have their true voice stolen. Why would they stand up for anyone else?

    But for me, because I do have confidence and I will put down appropriate boundaries, then I am quite comfortable and confident doing that for someone else. Weak people usually don’t stand up to defend others. But strong people will whip somebody’s tail (as we say in my fam) for messing with your/your friends/some strangers kid.

    It’s interesting that when I began to bring up issues with the pastors/elders about minorities and black women at my past church, the women that I told about it said that noone had gotten a response until I had brought it up. That I was one of the very few that even spoke about it. I was shocked, because these girls had been there for a long time. They simply didn’t have the confidence I had. And they still dont. Which is why they are still there schlepping along and still complaining about how bad the system is, yet they wont leave.


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    @ Wendy: btw, that *is* the theme of Kindred. Slavery is the ultimate abusive system. (Along with political totalitarianism, I think… and the religious variety of totalitarianism, too.)


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    “But how in the world can the church have any credibility at all caring for unborn fetuses and calling women murderers (some who are in some very difficult situations and many who may not be old enough to be making a real ‘adult’ decision) when it stands by and doesn’t say a word about children being sexually assaulted within its walls.”

    Because teaching 1 Corin 5 is not profitable. We are told not to judge the world but ourselves…in the Body. That is why the evangelical culture war was such a massive failure in reality but still going on because it appeals. Just read Mohler’s blog. If you can keep people ignorant of what is taking place behind the pulpit, the culture war plays well with the pew sitters because they really believe…”we are not like them”.


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    “Slavery is the ultimate abusive system.”

    Yes! it brings a sort of generational stockholm syndrome. It becomes the normal. If you want to see how this worked with some of the SBC Calvinist “Founders”, read Broaddus’ bio of Boyce. It is amazing how he can write what he does about Boyce’ view of slavery and defending slavery and think it is “good” and edifying. Amazing.


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    Debra Baker wrote:

    Lisa,
    You mention a parenting program in your 9:28 post, what materials/publications did they use and when (if you don’t mind.)
    TIA!

    It’s actually called Single & Parenting and it’s from Church Initiative which also publishes the DivorceCare program we’re going to use this spring. I’ve seen a lot of churches using their programs- baptist, methodist, presbyterian…it’s not affiliated with SGM in any way. Our church ran the S&P group twice (it goes for ~3months), I think it was fall ’11 and spring ’12?


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    “the better question is why he,and most other people in conservative evangelicalism, DON’T care.”

    My first thought to this is Matt 24:11, many false prophets will arise and mislead many. Many will be and choose to be mislead. Denial and fantasy are huge for a lot of people.For many,the truth doesn’t matter because they have their own selfish agenda.


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    @ Don Baker:

    Thank you for your thoughts on this, Don. Gives me a lot to chew on. 🙂


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    Actually, this is something that we talk about over on ACFJ:

    All an abuser asks is that the church do nothing.

    A victim asks for so much more: acknowledgement, effort, self sacrifices, dealing with public drama, and yes, a non-peaceful engagement.

    It’s not hard to see why people side with abusers.

    But it’s not OK.


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    @ Anon 1: Thanks for the rec – I’ve read some defenses of slavery that come from the heart of other denoms, and it is just painful and sickening stuff.

    fwiw, at the National Cathedral in D.C., there’s a life-size statue of Robert E. Lee (mounted on Traveler) right outside the building, very close to the southeast wall of the nave. That’s always made alarm bells go off in my head; I’m familiar with the accounts of Lee as a “Christian gentleman,” but that statue’s presence and placement is just…. words fail me.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    I will be the first one to admit that SGM has attracted the educated middle classes even though education was not an issue for their leadership. So what was the draw?

    I have to admit, if my SGM church was a bunch of young guys straight out of high school + “pastors college”, that would be a different story. All our pastors are college educated. One went to SEBTS (undergrad) and one to another seminary. So it’s not like they “only” went to the PC or have no education. I realize this may not be the case at other SGM churches, not sure?

    One comment in passing was the “good teaching” reference. There are several reasons why we can know NOW from documents and many first hand accounts across the SGM spectrum that the ‘good teaching’ and all the other aspects of the SGM family….the focus, teaching, topics, events, etc…… orchestrated from on high.

    Ok, so “good teaching” sets off a lot of alarms for some of you. I don’t mean reading all CJ’s books. I haven’t heard any of his books quoted or recommended in a long, long time. I mean, I’ve benefited from our pastors teaching. They are preaching through Ephesians right now. I’m just saying I benefit from it, is it so hard to believe that I could benefit from hearing Ephesians read and preached, just because it’s occurring in an SGM church?

    We also know that Lisa’s pastor was on the recent polity committee and believes in the hierarchical structure that has allowed SGM to operate as it has for years. (It is really no different if you analyze it). This polity structure really works for folks who check their volition at the door but it sounds like they have been given more input. It is smoke and mirrors.

    I actually consider the new polity different in some significant ways, it’s presbyterian at the extra-local level. No more of CJ et al making doctrinal changes without the approval of the rest of the pastors in SGM. I would have liked to see presbyterian all the way down to the local level (elders/deacons from the congregation). Yes, the Apex pastors wanted apostles, but they have stated emphatically that the prior incarnations of apostles in SGM was done very, very badly.

    Another red flag was up earlier when Lisa mentioned that she wanted to correct something in the blog post so that it would keep SGM people from thinking TWW was about “gossip and slander”.

    It is Lisa’s normal. But that is no excuse.

    Did you guys even pay attention to what I wrote?? *I* personally do not consider this G&S, and I agree the label of G&S just deflects the issues. What I’m saying, is if someone who’s on the fence about SGM comes and read here and they see people jumping to conclusions or having wrong information, they can easily continue to see these blogs as G&S. I just want accurate information out there so people will stop seeing these blogs as G&S and realize that the blogs have helped expose *real* problems.

    The first thing we did after reading the initial lawsuit was ask our pastor, have any of these things ever happened at our church, would you even tell us if they had, would you call the police in these situations. We were satisfied with the response *at our church*, obviously not the case with all SGM churches.


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    “The first thing we did after reading the initial lawsuit was ask our pastor, have any of these things ever happened at our church, would you even tell us if they had, would you call the police in these situations. We were satisfied with the response *at our church*, obviously not the case with all SGM churches.”

    Lisa, I do not even have to respond to the other things you explained because this last one sums up the MAIN problem at SGM or whatever SGM affiliated or formerly affiliated church one is in.

    The Pastor is the LAST person you should go to and BELIEVE concerning what has come of light and where your church fits into the larger picture. He is as much of a koolaid drinker as anyone else but at a highher level with stronger stuff. See, you did not even pick up on that. That is how ingrained it is for you.

    SGM pastors whether stil in the system or not are trying to figure out if they are going to be able to pay their mortgage in a few months. Keep that in mind, too.

    For anyone who thinks I am too mean, when you read my comments, think of a 3 year old girl having a 16 year old boy from church climb on top of her and SGM blows that off and makes the 3 year old face her molester and forgive.

    If you can picture that terrified child, then I don’t sound so mean about SGM and it’s defenders and fellow travellors.

    Let us NEVER forget what we are really talking about. The life of terror of these victims must never be lost in the discussion.


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    “All an abuser asks is that the church do nothing.

    A victim asks for so much more: acknowledgement, effort, self sacrifices, dealing with public drama, and yes, a non-peaceful engagement.

    It’s not hard to see why people side with abusers.”

    Oh Jeff! What a great way to put it!


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    In a control group situation, this is how I read this statement. (And I”m not even playing the race card) but just to signify the situations where people are being controlled or abused, and deceived…

    The first thing we did after reading the initial town Gazette, we asked our master, have any of these things ever happened at our plantation, would you even tell us if they had, would you call the police in these hangings. We were satisfied with the response our master gave, obviously not the case with all of his plantations.

    : /


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    @ numo:

    Numo, it’s been years since I’ve been to the National Cathedral – YEARS – and I didn’t realize there was a statue of Lee there, actually. Not sure how they select historical figures to be represented on the grounds, actually.

    As someone who was born and raised in D.C., and lived there until a few years ago, and also as a huge history buff, I can tell you that one of the best parts of living in the area is the access to the treasure trove of Civil War history right in your backyard. From the well known battlefields to the lesser known sites, I’ve always been a regular visitor. FWIW Chancellorsville/the Wilderness is absolutely my favorite.

    Which is why when the fringes of the Reformed Industrial Complex (including the 2 Dougs, Wilson AND Phillips, who are usual suspects when it comes to fruitcakery) started reviving “Christian” (revisionist) right-wing histories of Lee, Jackson, and the Confederacy in the last decade or so, it made me want to puke.

    Now it can be argued that fundagelicals started appropriating figures in the Civil War immediately following its conclusion, and Jeff Shartlett in “The Family” certainly traces this history well. Both the SBC and the Southern Presbyterians (starting with Dabney’s hagiography of Stonewall Jackson) claimed Lee and Jackson as southern Christian evangelical martyrs of a sort.

    Did I mention this makes me puke?

    One can have a deep abiding interest in the Civil War and these two Confederate generals without being a “reformed neo-Confederate.” I hate how these guys are trying to claim a complex and fascinating history that belongs to all of us as Americans! 🙁

    So I guess I don’t mind Lee’s statue at the National Cathedral. I am sure most evangelicals wouldn’t set foot in there in the first place as it just smacks of so much … wicked ecumenicalism, doncha know. 🙂


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    Yes, Jeff! That was quite an amazing response. But you know, people just wanna “pray” for stuff all the time. I”ll pray for you. I”m praying for it. We’ll pray about it.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    What I have written sounds mean, I know. But nothing is “meaner” than children being molested, friends. There are always going to be evil people who molest children. BUT…..what makes that so easy for them to do is all the folks who look the other way, work hard to suppress the truth, and those who spend time defending a system that made it easier for the abusers, perverts, etc.

    Your whole comment was so good anon1, and I can identify with the whole thing. The part I quoted about being mean struck a cord with me because Im aware I get mean about SGM. I care about people and I realize leaving is a process and I’m not the one to offer all kinds of sympathy to those who, in light of everything that has been revealed are “struggling” whether they should leave or not. I know there are fine people who provide counseling services who can work with people in the process, and I would encourage that if needed. As for me, my position is pretty cut and dry: It’s a cult. GET OUT. If that sounds mean so be it. I’m not the person to talk to if you’re looking for compassion. I say screw ’em.
    Im with you Anon1. What SGM has done is A LOT meaner, but its cloaked in this ‘totalitarian niceness’ as you put it. So, to combat that and to get ready for the great escape, I say you have to start putting your badass on. Ask questions. Cause trouble. Stop caring about everyone’s feelings because they sure as heck don’t care about yours!


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    @ Rafiki: I lived in NoVa for 21 years; went to grad school at GW.

    To my mind, having the statue of Lee on the grounds – and not just on the grounds, but SO CLOSE to the nave – is a clear illustration of why there are next to zero black Episcopalians in the D.C. area. (There are, however, many black Catholics – same in Baltimore.)

    One of my sub-specialties in grad school was … African American artists in the D.C. area, past and present. So…


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    @ Rafiki: I dunno – a lot of evangelical/charismatic folks that I knew *loved* visiting National Cathedral, though not necessarily for services.

    Though now that the Episcopal bishop of D.C. has opened the Cathedral to gay weddings, well… it might not be such a hot spot for many visitors.

    I always enjoyed walking around the grounds; there are some lovely small gardens there.


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    Trina wrote:

    Drury

    haaa, but then you’d need Dee & Deb to be running the “Fake John Piper” twitter account !


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    Evie and Anon1,
    I must admit I’m really not familiar with SGM and how the churches operate- all I know is that it has a highly authoritarian structure and knowledge of the sexual abuse goes all the way up to the top.

    What I do not know is the culpability of people lower in the structure- say at Lisa’s church. I mean, I think we all recognize that if something really filthy happens at a bunch of SBC churches, that doesn’t mean all people should leave all SBC churches. Do you view this differently because of the more highly authoritarian structure? Do you think that Lisa’s pastor must have had knowledge of the abuses?

    These are honest questions, because I’ve never been to anything like an SGM church. Most churches I’ve been to have been fairly independent, so it’s really hard for me to relate with what the situation at the ground level for someone like Lisa is.


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    The love bombing brings back memories of all the attention we received at first. But after that and we met with pastors to talk about membership and what not, we were told, at first, “You look around and see all these people and their relationships with one another, and we just want you to know that it takes at least 4 years for that to begin to develop.” And then at the next meeting, same kind of thing, only I noticed it kept getting stretched out, “You’ll see relationships but we want you to know it takes 6 years or so to really feel knit in….”

    If you knew Gary Ricucci or John Loftness that’s what they would tell you. They kept stringing you along…if its not working for you yet just wait….things will get better….it takes TIME.

    Its a big waste of time is what it is!!


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    Lisa–

    It’s not good teaching that is wrong, in and of itself. It’s people idolization of it. So much that supposedly good teaching/good theology trumps a whole lot of other stuff but mainly love. You see, I’ve seen people travel more than 45 minutes 1-way just go to go a church because it had “good teaching.” Not entirely wrong, but still a bit much. I’ve seen people move to a neighborhood just to be near the church and pay considerably more in rent, or live with 4 or 5 other people, or cram their family in someone’s basement apt, because of the “good teaching.” I’ve seen people diss other churches that were just as good, but yet, ours had “good teaching” and so the pride and arrogance was unmatched.

    In the name of “good teaching”, I’ve seen people force their teenagers to attend a church where there were hardly any, and have no real social connection at church because the parents valued “good teaching” over…dare I say it? Love.

    I know many single women who have been at church for more than 7 years, who are ingored, who are in severe emotional pain at times, but stay because of “good teaching” and certainly, are afraid to go anywhere else because the teaching might not be so “good.”

    I know people who wont fellowship with the charasmatic folk down the street, or the catholics or episcopalians down the street because well, they dont have “good teaching.”

    I know people who can no longer afford to live in the DC Metro who do their best to make it work, including being jobless and unemployed, because the church had “good teaching.”

    I know people who are afraid to move or marry outside of the church because their beliefs and churches might not have “good teaching.”

    And alas, we see people in your SGM family of churches who aren’t as appalled and horrified as they should be by 3-year-olds being molested, systematic child rape (you read that “ring of pedophiles” comment in the lawsuit right), physical and emotional abuse of women (you’ve got more than a ton of survivor blogs at your disposal), pastors at various churches covering up child rape, pedophilia, parental abuse in all forms, spousal abuse); pastors fighting (brent’s docs) and on and on and on…because of “good teaching.”

    So “good teaching” around these parts are a load. A BIG one. It was never intended to be more valuable than that of a human life. It was never intended to be more valuable than love, sacrifice, effort, advocacy, etc…

    I’m not sure how you can be satisfied with the fact that because your particular local church, that is PART AND PARCEL of the SGM organization AS IT WAS AND HAD BEEN, and think that (1) there will be radical change; (2) your pastors had no idea…ever of any of these issues; (3) that they would have honestly told you the truth; (4) that your own children are safe; and (5) that you should do nothing more than pray and exhibit any other real actions that show your disagreement and disgust with what has happened systematically in your family of churches.

    It is merely a coincidence that these things have NOT happened at your church. I doubt that it was avoided on purpose. And let’s just say, for example, that these things DID happen at your local SGM church, do you think it would have been handled any differently than what the organization has done consistently, generally, almost in every case, as a whole?


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    @ Haitch:

    Haitch,

    Why not the Fake Ceej Mahaney Twitter account? LOL I”m glad you could appreciate my joke. I imagine the tweets would definitely include examples du jour about how he was the biggest sinner in the world…

    @CeejMahaney: Saved 3 peds from the pen today. Shoulda bn me. Totally the worlds biggest sinner, yo. #SGMrox #sweetbabyjesus


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    Jeff I’m sorry I was thinking you had been in SGM my bad!!!

    I remember now about your church situation! (sorry for being harsh)


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    Trina wrote:

    @ Haitch:
    Haitch,
    Why not the Fake Ceej Mahaney Twitter account?

    Hi Trina, I noticed after seeing the fake Pastor Mark (Driscoll) Twitter, account, as well as the fake John Piper account, that someone had already registered the fake CJ Mahaney Twitter account, which has no activity.

    I don’t think it will be long before some talented people start spoofing Mahaney and imitating him, making fun of his messages and his ministry. There’s just too much material there to pass up! 😀


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    Trina wrote:

    Deb–
    ….to add, I’d love to see what happened to the brain, chemically, as one is being love bombed. It has to be like the best drug ever… Intoxicating, ethereal, yet impairing. Side effects: leaky eyes, emotional distress, depression, self-hatred, indigestion, heart-burn, fear, social anxiety, binge drinking, fear of God/church/religion.

    Drugs are working on receptor sites that are there to interact with chemicals the body makes naturally (usually either hormones or neurotransmitters (a lot of those two things are considered to be both hormones and neurotransmitters. The very best “highs” are the ones you get without drugs. Generally, the chemicals involved are endorphins (think runner’s high) and the classic serotonin and dopamine (complex but boiled down to motivation and reward.) Love bombing is a false construct of something essential for most humans (we are social animals) which is being a respected and/or loved and nurtured member of a group.

    Sorry, I’m behind but this board moves fast!


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    Bold Calvinestaville: Business As Usural? 

    HowDee YaAll,

    [When you combine the patriarchy with Calvinista it becomes especially vicious because (they believe) God foreordained it. This means (for the 3 year old) molestation by a professing beliver was part of God’s predetermined plan. ] -Anon1, adapted.

    crackers?

    …excusing evil acts by professing believers, and victimizing the victims? 

    Boy, is that really messed up!?!

    “We are talking about the most vulnerable and innocent among us…” -Anon1

    What?

     “This is not something to even try and explain away. It is something one gets out of immediately and works to help the victims who were in the same system.” -Anon1

    hmmm…

    Evil is in triumph, 

    … good men are doing nothing.

    (sadface)

    Church is big business, you can count on that!

    huh?

    The proverbial con is on…

    Watch for it!

    Therez a sucker born every day who will fall for dis kinda stuff. Don’t let it ‘b’ you.

    Sopy


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    Debra–

    I love talking science. It makes my mouth salivate… I’m all “Mufasaaaaa… oooo saying it again.”

    With LBing are you saying that endorphins and serotinin and dopamine come into play here?


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    @ Jeff S: It’s a whole lot like being in an abusive relationship. It’s *hard* for most people to really leave, even if the abuse is extreme.

    But it’s also a common dynamic in cults, and while I sometimes find myself getting frustrated with some of the commenters on Survivor-type blogs, I also feel for them, because I do remember how hard it was for me to process the extreme cognitive dissonance I experienced when I was booted from That Church. (As well as the kind of low-level cognitive dissonance I’d been living with for decades but kept suppressing, because surely those things weren’t actually happening – and also because I was scared of being trapped in something even worse.)

    It can be a vicious circle, in every sense of the term.


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    @ Evie:
    I could but woudln’t have the intestinal fortitude to post .gifs of him doing those crazy mannerisms. I can barely look at a photo of him without being skeezed out. The guy sends my “weirdo/run” red flag flying up the pole.


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    Evie wrote:

    Jeff I’m sorry I was thinking you had been in SGM my bad!!!
    I remember now about your church situation! (sorry for being harsh)

    Oh, I didn’t realize you were being harsh with me :p

    It’s all good- I see looking back at the comments how it could look I came from SGM. I merely empathize with the prospect of losing a church family because I know it’s hard.


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    Jeff–

    Truth is we can’t know if Lisa’s pastor knew. I would assume he didn’t, just because it’s the right thing to do. But regardless whether he would or wouldn’t know, how does it change any action on a person investing their time and money into such an organization. Do they think their financial contributions don’t help the entire organization as a whole? Hell, let’s even take it a step further! If you were Lisa’s pastor, and you didn’t know, but now you do, why the heck wouldn’t YOU leave?

    Lisa, ask your pastor why He wouldn’t leave SGM even though he didn’t know. Doesn’t he think his continuing to preach and identify with such an organization that has lied to him and kept secrets from him, and keeping him in the dark about something as important as this a little bit more than unfair and ignoring his responsibility and leadership??? Huh? Why does he stay?


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    …and these people have the nerve not to buy a $3 box of freakin’ cookies from Girl Scouts because (in my whiney voice) they support Planned Parenthood… whaaaa… whaaa… WHAAAA!!!

    Talk about mixed up priorities, man.

    Goodness. I’m sorry, but those Samoas are good as hell. So while you put your $500 in the offering plate and hope nobody’s kid gets raped, I’ll put my $3 in that cookie box and hope nobody gets an abortion today. Shall we call it even?


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    @ Trina: LOLZ – but it’s all too true.

    thin mints are my go-to. 😉


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    numo wrote:

    @ Trina: LOLZ – but it’s all too true.
    thin mints are my go-to.

    I won’t buy GS cookies because they are just too expensive for what you get (imo).

    And I think grasshoppers are every bit as good (or better) than thin mints.


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    @ Jeff S: I really miss the old chocolate and vanilla sandwich cookies.

    I actually volunteered my mom as a cookie distributor – and she really couldn’t get out of it – back when I was in Brownies. The basement was full of cookies and I kept sneaking off to appropriate more… my poor mom!!!


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    Sorry for the quick diversion. I have to share this pattern I’ve been noticing. People who speak loudest about the complementarian issue seem to be MEN. They try to tell us that the value of woman is of utmost importance to them. Here’s one tweet I read recently: “Complementarians are incredibly pro-women. We believe we honor God’s design for women. And so we wish for women to thrive, not suffer.”

    Complementarian Phil Johnson just tweeted this: https://twitter.com/Phil_Johnson_/status/295983177200185344 (click on the tiny URL on Phil’s tweet)

    Thank you for allowing JA to vent. Back to your regularly scheduled program.


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    Evie,

    I knew both Gary and John. About when were they telling you the 4-to-6-year “break-in” period? Was this early in CLC/PDI, or later?


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    Many Reformed see all sin as the same. They make no real distinctions. Being angry is the same as murdering someone and God judges both the same. That is why it is so easy for them to come back to the victim with ‘you are a sinner, too”. Which is true but has nothing to do with the situation. Their determinist paradigm makes sure it has something to do with it and only victimizes people over and over. When you combine the patriarchy with Calvinista it becomes especially viscious because God foreordained it. This means the 3 year olds molestation by a professing beliver was part of God’s predetermined plan. We can see how this would really mess people up.
    So, to the poor vulnerable child victims who do not have the capacity to understand or question: God foreordained it, you are a sinner, too! now forgive!
    It is most vile using God as the author of pure evil to excuse evil acts by even professing believers.

    I was thinking about this just yesterday, watching a new British version of the Father Brown mysteries, either that or inspired by them. Dee, you’ll love them! In the first episode Father Brown is dealing with an Anglican Vicar who has killed his brother. His brother was leading a terribly immoral life, which involved appalling manipulation of, & harm to, others. The Vicar has a chance to do something, on the spur of the moment that could kill his brother. When he does this thing, & it, against all probability (trying not to ruin it for those who will see it)it does kill his brother, he then attributes this to God, that his death must have been God’s will. Now Father Brown, who is noramlly wise & mild, loses his temper & shouts at him ‘You killed your brother! GOD IS NOT YOUR SCAPEGOAT’…SUch a profoud thing to say, & definitely applicable here.


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    How Long: “SGM induced “spiritual death traps?” 

    We have been telling folks in these SGM induced “spiritual death traps” ta walk not run to the nearest exit, for more than four years. 

    hmmm…

    Some, thankfully, have listened.

    huh?

    Jesus did not come ta hurt people, but to bring ‘eternal life’, to those who believe in Him.

    Those individuals that are doing the hurting to the people God is calling, have not a sanction from God.

    no duh?

    (These evil deeds extend solely from themselves…)

    Believer beware?

    You might want to avoid them.

    The ‘life’ you save, might b your own…

    hmmm…

    could b.

    Sopy


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    Jeff S wrote:

    I mean, I think we all recognize that if something really filthy happens at a bunch of SBC churches, that doesn’t mean all people should leave all SBC churches.

    That’s the decision WE made. My husband and I were both born and raised SBC. For the first 40+ years of our lives, we were steeped in SBC everything.

    Here are the primary reasons we’ll never attend an SBC church again (unless there are drastic changes):

    1. Being expelled at our SBC church for exposing a child predator;
    2. All the research I’ve done on child sex abuse cases in the SBC and the unfathomable history of do-nothingness in the face of scandal after scandal;
    3. The SBC voting NO to the establishment of a database of confessed, convicted, and credibly accused ministers.

    Until the SBC takes abuse seriously and is willing to do something about it, rather than turning a blind eye, I don’t feel safe there. There are other denoms who DO take it seriously and actually have safety measures in place to protect kids.


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    @ Beakerj: Wait – you’re saying there’s a *new* version of Father Brown on TV?

    Who’s doing it – BBC, ITV, or ??? (I have a UK-based VPN network, so… ;))


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    Trina wrote:

    BeenThere–
    I’d like to add, “…and for ALL relationships.” Marriages won’t survive it but neither will friendships. Nothing can survive the effects of a cult unless the people are extremely strong-willed and immediately seek outside support.

    Completely agree. I was responding to some comments above concerning couples. But, you’re right. It affects anyone who leaves. In fact, I’ve reconnected with a friend who left our church a few years before we did. Her family, which remains in the church, will have nothing to do with her. Her father sends her text messages telling her that she is to blame for the separation. Her saving grace was an enormous amount of support from people in the community who had befriended her. Even then, it’s still hard.


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    @ Beakerj:

    On the whole “sin is sin” thing, I just want to point out that not all (or even correct, imo) Reformed folks believe this.

    In this interview about the book “A Cry For Justice” (linked a few weeks ago on this site) both men are reformed pastors:

    https://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/interview-with-jeff-crippen-about-a-cry-for-justice/

    Notice question 2:

    ——————

    2. You often make the point that abusers are not “sinners like the rest of us” and therefore they should not be treated the same. Why do you think you can get away with saying that?

    One of the greatest errors we make in our thinking as Christians is that sin is sin. It isn’t. While all of us are born into this world as fallen creatures enslaved to sin and dead to God, the level of our actual depravity is not the same. For example, Jesus said: ESV Matthew 11:21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. (Mat 11:21 ESV). Proverbs identifies different classes of people, including some kinds of “fools” whom you shouldn’t waste your breath on. The New Testament gives us several paradigms for church discipline, depending upon the kind of sinner we are dealing with.

    George Simon Jr. (In Sheep’s Clothing and Character Disturbance), Martha Stout (The Sociopath Next Door), Robert Hare (Without Conscience) and Jan Silvious (Fool-Proofing Your Life) are incredibly helpful in explaining to us that there is a radical difference in the thinking of sociopaths/psychopaths and people like the rest of us. And if we are naive enough to treat them in the same manner we would deal with more “normal” sinners, we are going to be chewed up and spit out by them. There is a spectrum of abuse that is largely characterized by a greater or lesser presence of conscience.


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    Jeff S wrote:

    I mean, I think we all recognize that if something really filthy happens at a bunch of SBC churches, that doesn’t mean all people should leave all SBC churches.

    That’s the decision WE made. My husband and I were both born and raised SBC. For the first 40+ years of our lives, we were steeped in everything SBC.

    Here are the primary reasons we’ll never attend an SBC church again (unless there are drastic changes):

    1. Being expelled at our SBC church for exposing a child predator;
    2. All the research I’ve done on child sex abuse cases in the SBC and the unfathomable history of do-nothingness in the face of scandal after scandal;
    3. The SBC voting NO to the establishment of a database of confessed, convicted, and credibly accused ministers.

    Until the SBC demonstrates genuine care for children, takes abuse seriously and is willing to something about it, rather than turning a blind eye, I don’t feel safe there. There are other denoms who DO take it seriously and have elaborate safety measures in place to protect kids.


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    @ numo:
    Hey Numes – it’s on the Beeb, there are 10 episodes & I’ve really enjoyed it.. You’ll have to watch in on catchup as they showed them in the afternoons for two consecutive weeks that have just finished.


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    Jeff, the Southern Baptist Convention does not operate like SGM at all. It’s polity was designed to be bottom up on purpose. Just do a google on how many presidents we’ve had….. they are elected by the messengers who attend the convention from churches.

    Now I will concede that Al Mohler, the unofficial Pope of the SBC, has been working very very hard to make us into a huge SGM style denomination.

    However, many are concerned as we now have churches and associations designating money away from SBTS.

    Perhaps you are not aware of how top down SGM polity is. The last person I would trust is an SGM pastor .


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    @ Beakerj: Ooh – hope they’re all still there!

    Thanks for the tip, beakerj!


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    JeffS, I hear you.

    I think the sources you point to are of a much higher calibre than the ones that I have a problem with, a lot of the determinism I hear about comes from harder core fundamentalists & neo-calvinists, calvinistas if you will. I’m going to have to hold up my hands however & say that while I totally agree with the points you made, I do strongly suspect that any level of calvinism leads to a disguised determinism, no matter how much it tries to avoid this. The level of cognitive dissonance I have experienced (no matter how much thinking/prayer/time/repentance/submission to scripture) while trying to hold to compatibilism myself makes this untenable to me.


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    Jeff S wrote:

    Evie and Anon1,
    What I do not know is the culpability of people lower in the structure- say at Lisa’s church. I mean, I think we all recognize that if something really filthy happens at a bunch of SBC churches, that doesn’t mean all people should leave all SBC churches. Do you view this differently because of the more highly authoritarian structure? Do you think that Lisa’s pastor must have had knowledge of the abuses?

    Thank you Jeff, that’s what I’m talking about. I asked my pastor if this has happened at our church, are there known pedophiles etc in our church, he said no. Would you call the police in these situations and he said yes. My pastor doesn’t have a history of lying, so I have no reason to think he’s lying. I know him and he’s always been trustworthy. The reason I asked my pastor instead of some other random church member, is because he hopefully is the person most aware of situations that have taken place in our church. I guess my other alternative is to ask every person that walks through the door on Sunday if they’re aware of any pedophiles in our church or other abusive situations.

    On the other hand, I do consider it a valid reason to leave, along with so many other things that have come to light in the past 18 months. I just don’t feel *compelled* to leave at this moment.

    To those who pity me and guess that I’m stuck in some complementarian, submissive, dependent marriage….far from it. I know what you mean though, I think there are women in SGM and other comp churches that feel trapped. My husband and I are on the same page with the SGM problems and we may decide to leave but as long as we’ve still in, we’re going to try to make a difference. I’m not trying to defend SGM in all this (as if that could be done).

    I know it seems weird to everyone why I am even in this church in the first place if I’m not fully complementarian and we have other differences of opinion as well. We were drawn to the people and relationships and the love and care we see expressed in our congregation. I know some of it is surface level. If we left, we would lose those “friendships”. But there are some real friendships and real care as well.


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    Trina wrote:

    Lisa, ask your pastor why He wouldn’t leave SGM even though he didn’t know. Doesn’t he think his continuing to preach and identify with such an organization that has lied to him and kept secrets from him, and keeping him in the dark about something as important as this a little bit more than unfair and ignoring his responsibility and leadership???

    They want to help reform SGM. That’s why they participated in the polity stuff. Our church was already questioning SGM about polity issues even before the brent docs. They just weren’t getting much response from SGM. The brent situation blew everything up and forced these things to finally be addressed.

    Personally, I think things in SGM are so far gone, that it’s a detriment for us to stay, but they didn’t ask me 🙂 (Remember, I would strongly prefer congregational input in our local church)


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    @ Lisa: With respect, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn’t just go on what the pastor said re. child abuse.

    He may very well be lying and trying to cover up for others.

    sorry to say that – truly – but it is what’s been going on for SO long that I don’t trust any of these guys. As in the RC church (and other churches where there have been these kinds of abuses), people who are in power do mostly do everything they ca to cover their *sses and protect the system at all costs.

    You might want to look at some registered sex offenders lists for starters.

    P.S.: I recently found out that a college classmate’s husband is on those lists, due to “moral turpitude” and “corruption of a minor” (girl). This guy always kind of gave me the willies, but still – what a shock.

    However, looking back… maybe not so much. Gut feelings are very often accurate, even if we don’t know *what* it is we’re sensing, exactly.


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    “There is a radically difference in the thinking of sociopaths/psychopaths”

    “And if we are naive enough to treat them in the same manner we would deal with more “normal” sinners, we are going to be chewed up and spit out by them”

    Exactly…


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    Trina said~

    “That’s the thing with pro-life “cultural” Christianity. We are very busy in the business of telling people not to kill babies, yet, we dont give a schtick once the child arrives on this earth about their care. It’s kinda like how christian culture is so very “concerned” for Africa, yet, won’t even go in their local surrounding communities to help people who are impoverished and marginalized. ‘Why? Cause God dont care bout them there sinners in your urban hood. They are all lost causes anyways. With all their drinkin and weed smokin,and prostitutin. All they do is live off welfare and wanna game the system. Those people wont get much bling on my crown. Now, them Africans are absolutely destitute and are fresh ears for letting you give them a pair of shoes for letting a Jesus into their hearts.

    (please excuse my sarcasm but I had to).”

    lol-you are cracking me up, Trina. I wonder if the youth groups get more bling in their crowns because it seems, at least around here, that Mexico is the only place that needs houses built. Mexico Missions Trip!!! Why not in your own town?


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    @ numo~

    “God knows some people seem to “love” uganda enough that they’re willing to try and “help” them pass legislation that makes homosexuality a capital crime. (For those unfamiliar with this – it’s true. I’d be *more* than happy to provide links to all kinds of documentation; it’s especially crucial because it’s happening *right now*.)

    Lou Engle?


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    @ Trina,

    I am so sorry for the horrible experience you had at that church. Makes me very sad. I am rejoicing with ya that you are in a better place. 🙂


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    Trina

    Her pastor is a main person that runs SGM central. He supports the “Apostle” with everything he does for SGM central. He is one of the bog boys of SGM. For him, it is business as usual. I don’t care what Lisa says. She cannot get around the fact that Sasser took over the church with the “degifting” of the previous pastor. He has, is and will  support Mahaney hook, line and sinker. 

    I am still waiting for some expression of concern for the tiny victims of SGM. It is strangely silent. 


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    Trina

    Phil Sasser teaches them. Phil Sasser supports SGM central. Therefore, the teaching is screwed up.


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    @ Wendy,

    I am so sorry for the fear that your two sweet boys are experiencing. Just you keep on loving them and letting them stay with you. They will naturally grow out of needing that security, as I bet you already know. But they need it now. 🙂


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    JeffS

    You said “if something really filthy happens at a bunch of SBC churches, that doesn’t mean all people should leave all SBC churches” Be cautious here.Their pastor is Phil Sasser, a dude who got his position after the “degifting” of the previous pastor in an ugly situation. Sasser is involved with SGM central. He puts out the missives on church polity. It is safe to say that something is amiss. He is part of the problem, in my opinion.


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    Wendy

    You and I share a common heritage in caring for the abused in the SBC.The SBC is huge. SGM is tiny, really, really tiny. They like to pretend that they are very big and very important. They got that from their bombastic leader who knows how to kiss the hand who pats him on the back. So it is very difficult to say that Pastor Sasser has not knowledge of what is going on, especially since he is invovled as Mr. Polity.


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    Anon1

    This bears repeating. “Perhaps you are not aware of how top down SGM polity is. The last person I would trust is an SGM pastor .” It makes me laugh every time they compare themselves to the SBC. They are tiny. Just wait until the Apostle title gets out. Most will fall down laughing when they find out that it was used by CJ and a few others. 


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    Dee,
    This is why I’m asking- I don’t really know anything about the pastor or how the church operates. I’m trying to understand myself how far this thing reaches.

    My questions were real question- I really am ignorant and not trying to make a point when I ask how SGM is different from SBC. And I appreciate the answers.


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    Lisa

    Since you have read all of the documents, how do you feel about the kids who were abused and are still dealing with it? What do you think about the lawsuit? Do you think your pastor will be deposed?


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    Lisa, the polity your pastor agreed to only maintains CJ’s power.


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    @ Trina:

    “I’m all ‘Mufasaaaaa… oooo saying it again.'”

    Mufasa Mufasa Mufasa MUFASA!


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    @ Anon 1:

    Wait. What? How? Please enlighten Lisa and us, Anon ; ).


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    Dee–

    Thanks, Boo. That really hit the nail on the head. Can you give us a short rundown on Mr. polity or is that all we need to know about him? Something is really fishy. I’m starting to smell the ammonia…


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    numo wrote:

    @ Lisa: With respect, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn’t just go on what the pastor said re. child abuse.
    ….
    You might want to look at some registered sex offenders lists for starters.

    Of course, I try to be as aware as possible. I get a monthly email from crimereports.com that maps the crime in our town and includes all registered sex offenders in the area. But if they’re only registered if they’ve been convicted. Yes, I’m very cautious with our kids!


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    Lisa, the polity your pastor agreed to only maintains CJ’s power.

    Have you read it, it’s presbyterian? CJ has no position in it. Yes, I’m sure he’ll still be employed by SGM or the Lousville church, but he isn’t even being considered for the executive director position.


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    Lisa

    Too funny. Or, maybe Sasser is gunning for supreme commander?


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    Lisa–

    CJ employed doing what? Do you know? So if it happens to come to light that CJ knew about these coverups and orchestrated some, how would you feel about his continual employment? How would you feel if the other men have also been found guilty of covering up, would you support their employment?


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    Oh sorry Lisa… You can push my question to the back of the queue. It’s not as important as Dee’s. if you have the time, would you answer her first? I’m also interested in your reply. Thank you


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    @ Diane: thank you! Yes, I am tons better!!! There are some really precious women I left that are still there and I pray they will soon see the light. I fear for them.


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    I believe Jeff S. is asking a legitimate question, and I’m curious for more feedback myself. Why would any of us (not just Lisa) align ourselves with a denomination or organization whose prominent leaders (those calling the shots and with the most influence) know, lie about, cover up, and protect child predators?


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    dee wrote:

    Their pastor is Phil Sasser, a dude who got his position after the “degifting” of the previous pastor in an ugly situation. Sasser is involved with SGM central. He puts out the missives on church polity. It is safe to say that something is amiss. He is part of the problem, in my opinion.

    Phil was already a pastor when the previous sr pastor stepped down. Yes, he is now the sr pastor but I can’t say anything more about how it happened because I wasn’t there when it happened. Phil is on the SGM board and chairs the polity committee. Notice though that he couldn’t just put whatever he wanted in the polity proposal. Our pastors were *strongly* in favor of an apostolic government (though I am not). There are *no* apostles in the proposed polity, very different from what they wanted. There was a range of opinions represented on the polity committee (but not as much as I would have liked, ie not CLC, Fairfax etc).

    Dee, you also asked about the lawsuit and the kids. There was clearly a huge problem with how these situations were handled. It’s grievous to read all the stories (in the lawsuit but obviously also here and on survivors there were a lot more details). If all is as they state in the lawsuit, I am hopeful they will get every last penny that SGM has, SGM can go down in flames and our church will no longer be associated with a ministry that defends themselves against that.


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    Diane,

    Thank you for your encouragement. For the first year+ of this co-sleeping, we tried various ways to get the boys back in their own beds. Actually, we’ve tried just about everything. When my now 6-year old revealed that he was scared the deacon predator from our church would come through his window at night, that just broke my heart. And it all – the questions, comments, almost daily obsession about the predator and the church – made sense. We’ve given in to them sleeping with us now and figure, like you say, they need it right now.


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    So Lisa, what I gather so far from what you said:

    1. You know you’d lose relationships. But there are some real friendships and real love and care as well.
    2. You’d prefer congregational input.
    3. You and your husband aren’t necessarily complementarian.
    4. You want to help change SGM
    5. You believe it might be detrimental to stay.
    6. You’re aware of the Brent docs.
    7. You at least know that there are some serious charges against pastors in your churches org.

    Hmmm… That’s s whole lot of serious negatives there on top of you not getting what you really want. Ad you say you want to stay? There must be a huge HUGE pro for all that sacrifice.


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    Lisa,

    You mentioned the Church Initiative materials.  I remember meeting a guy at your church who was employed by them.  He and his wife led a care group. I remember that so well because the father of one of my daughter’s friends from high school also worked with the Church Initiative.  Small world…


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    Trina wrote:

    Lisa–
    CJ employed doing what? Do you know? So if it happens to come to light that CJ knew about these coverups and orchestrated some, how would you feel about his continual employment? How would you feel if the other men have also been found guilty of covering up, would you support their employment?

    Well, some of them, including CJ, I already don’t support their continued employment. But if found guilty, I’d be even more “unsupportive”.

    Where will CJ end up…hmmm, he’s currently still “president” but also a pastor at SGCL. There is no “president” in the new polity. I’m sure they’ll find something for him to do if he’s not full time with their church plant (which certainly doesn’t need another full time pastor at this point), I’m sure he’ll continue speaking at conferences etc as long as his buddies are willing to ignore the lawsuit like they have so far. At 2011? pastors conference he said he wanted to get back to preaching and pastoral ministry. *But* given the lawsuit, it’s hard to say what might happen. If all those guys are found guilty, that will be quite a needed shakeup.

    Also, Wendy, I wouldn’t align myself with SGM. I realize this is difficult as I still go to an SGM church, but I would not recommend SGM churches to anyone right now. In fact, before this exploded in 2011, we *had* recommended an SGM church in PA to my sister-in-law. Shortly after that (and luckily before she visited), we had to retract our recommendation.


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    Lisa–

    D you tithe or give money? If so, do you think that money lends support to these pastors.


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    I know this isn’t about SGM specifically, but in light of Jeff’s question and my own curiosity, as well as SGM-SBC alliances, it most definitely is worth the read and some contemplation:

    Clery Sex Abuse and the Silence of the Many
    January 18, 2013

    http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/01/clergy-sex-abuse-and-silence-of-many.html


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    Lisa–

    I’m sorry I have so many questions for you but your statements bring up more questions. You tell Wendy that you wouldn’t align yourself with SGM but yet you ARE aligned with SGM. Do you agree? But if you cannot recommend SGM right now to anyone, why must you and your family be the martyrs for this organization? Do you think there is some huge heavenly reward for it? Do you think God will be pleased with your dedication? Why would it not be ok to accept that it appears you are getting no greater good out of the situation? I mean after all, you can’t even recommend it to anyone? You tell us all these realities that you now realize and you think it is fair to treat yourself that way?

    Aren’t you worth more than that, Lisa? Can’t you believe for a minute that God wants immeasurably more for you than that, Lisa? Do you think that God world be totally fine and even pleased that you walked away? Why or why wouldn’t God support your decision? Do you think if those were your kids that anything different would have happened? Doesn’t the idea that maybe it wouldn’t be any different haunt you? That you’re really not that special to them?

    I would ultimately challenge you to see if those real friendships and real love and care would survive if you made a different decision. I would also challenge you to stop thinking that your church and SGM are different animals. You speak of SGM and the you speak of your church as if they are separate entities.


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    Jeff,as to how something works just to give you a tad bit of history the SBC only “cooperated” as churches pooling money to send missionaries. That was it. We have a very embarassing founding as we split from Northern Baptists before the civil war over the issue of taking personal slaves on the mission field. Shameful! But after the SBC founders “determinst” god did not foreordain their winning the war, more SBC churches moved away from Calvinism until it was a tiny faction up to about 30 years ago and has been gaining steam ever since. (See Reisingers Quiet Revolution for how to take SBC churches Calvinist covertly)

    But there has never been a top down polity that is official. You will find everything in the SBC from Saddleback to YRR. Most churches you would not even know they are a part of the SBC. It is nowhere in their name or materials. There are factions of cult of personality mainly with the YRR/Mohler/Akin types but historically it is big on priesthood of believer and soul competency. No King but Jesus.

    We have annual conventions where the “messengers” go to vote on just about everything. When I was a kid, none of our pastors even went. Messengers were made up of laity reflecting our strong belief in congregational polity. To this day, my pastor never goes but my church sends messengers from our church that are not staffers. Most churches do not do this anymore. In the 80’s-90’s it was not unusual for 30,000 messengers to attend the convention. The majority being laity. The leadership runs and are elected to office for short terms.

    All that is changing. now they are lucky to have 7000 messengers and most of those are pastors. The rise of hierarchy is envogue. Al Mohler is running the show from SBTS as he has been consolidating his power and putting his minions in many positions in the national SBC for the last 15 years…slowly covertly.

    More and more churches and state associations are designating funds to keep them out of the hands of the Mohler faction. I would not give a dime to the national part. In the 90’s we saw mor and more missionaries leave because of ridiculous legalistic rules coming from the non Calvinist factions who were focusing on women in ministry issues. Some of my family left the field after 20 years. They refused to sign what they felt was a creed. They did agree to sign their bibles but not good enough. We typically are not a creedal people so requiring a missionary to sign a creed is a slap in the face. Although many did so not to lose their retirement.

    There are SBC churches I would not allow my dog in. The national convention has become one big bureaucracy and jobs program for the elite. The SBC is in it’s death throes and I expect it will be gone totally in 20 years. Or it will be sort of like SGM with Mohler using his walker to get across stage.

    We designate no money to them at all.

    So someone like Mahaney sounds more like Mussolini than a pastor to many of us. All we haev to do is cut off the money supply or elect some folks with intergrity to do the hard work of cleaning house. but like many segments of our society there is an entitlement mentality that is so pervasive I don’t think we are going back. We want government to take care us physically and we want church to take care of our souls.

    And we forget all the while that Jesus promised us the BEST teacher: The Holy Spirit. Instead we choose guys like Mahaney or Mohler.


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    Trina wrote:

    I’m sorry, but those Samoas are good as hell. So while you put your $500 in the offering plate and hope nobody’s kid gets raped, I’ll put my $3 in that cookie box and hope nobody gets an abortion today. Shall we call it even?

    Trina, just so you know … I spit out my tea all over my computer screen at that remark. 🙂


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    TWWERS

    Eagle, don’t blame yourself for the Piperisms. You are supposed to be able to trust your spiritual authorities, and it’s a big letdown when they fail you. This is the primary reason why I left my former church, because I question just about everything theological. I am horrified at the extent of all this abuse, spiritual and otherwise. My tales are not so nearly extreme, and watching you all gives me strength to continue to look to Christ and look past the hypocrisy of the “church”.

    About mental illness and birth control, this really makes me angry. You can give me advice when you go to eight years of school for medicine, and then you go to theology school. My daughter has several physical issues which require medicine, God put these things there for our benefit, there is nothing wrong with it.

    I am so confused about the spiritual authority issue. I have trouble believing anything, and our whole family has issues with authority of all kinds. No wonder I was an outsider at my former church. I cannot check my brain at the door. After coming from a family that was not close, I have trouble with the concept of trusting authority and I have never seen a reason to blindly trust those who are “in charge”.

    My former pastor called me yesterday to ask about the arrangements for my father, and he also asked about my daughter and more mundane things such as her illnesses and her college acceptance, etc. I was really surprised and happy, that he talked directly to me about regular things and didn’t give me theology in place of compassion. I can’t wait to see what he and my current pastor say to each other. My husband says that the pastor is being retrained by some of the more influential members of my former church, because I am sure that many of the former members had problems with the theology of the Calvinist agenda. When I had problems with all these books, Tripp and Piper and Mahaney, they all looked at me like I was out of my mind!

    Dee and Deb, you are doing a brave and wonderful thing with this blog. If nothing else, you are bringing together all us loners and outsiders and assuring us that we are not alone or crazy.

    Update: I have been writing this over a couple of days, so I am answering to the first half of the thread. My former pastor never showed up at my father’s service this morning, and I’m pretty disappointed. Where is his care for my soul? I wanted to forgive him and move on, but I can’t get there.


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    Lisa, The problem with the “new polity” is that SGM was built on cult of personality. There is CJ DNA all over the pastors in that movement. They don’t wake up one day and stop being who they have been. They can say the right things and act a certain way but that only means they weren’t qualified before and integrity would demand they step down if they all of a sudden disagree with how things were run. This is the part I do not get about all the support for Josh Harris. He was brought up in this legalistic hierarchical patriarchal bubble and mentored by CJ. All of a sudden he is a new person? I seriously doubt it.

    As for Sasser… He is one of them big time. You are fooling yourself. Think of the children.

    BTW: As to Presbyterian polity, some of my Pres friends have “ruling” elders, not elders mind you but “ruling” elders in their Presbytery which is always fun to debate at dinner parties. CJ and his sychophants will love that. Sounds much more sophisticated than “Apostle”.

    Think of that 3 year old terrified girl and what SGM pastors made her do after that terrifying event. Never let her leave your mind.


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    FROZEN thin mints, Trina. Nothing better with a cuppa dark roast.


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    VelvetVoice,
    Glad to see you back. I hope your former pastor’s absence didn’t diminish your ability to grieve your father’s death. I’m sorry you didn’t have closure with him.


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    Do ya’ll remember that when C.J. stepped down, Phil Sasser was his ‘advisor’?  I thought that was very interesting.  Here’s a blurb about that on SGC Apex’s website.

    http://sovgracenc.org/2012/02/the-reinstatement-of-cj-mahaney/

    “As many of you know, Phil Sasser has served in some capacity as an advisor to C.J.  His decision to serve in this manner was not born out of any personal bias or favoritism.  It was solely to serve our churches by insuring that every attempt at a biblical due process was afforded an office of the church when an accusation was brought.”

    This is Phil Sasser’s bio on the SGM website:

    http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/about-us/leadership.aspx

    “Phil Sasser has more than 30 years experience in pastoral ministry. He also has a B.S. from Ohio State University and has completed graduate work at Ashland Theological Seminary. Before joining SGM, Phil served as an elder in an independent charismatic church in Ohio from 1976-89. Since 1994 he has served on the pastoral team of Sovereign Grace Church in Apex, North Carolina, where he became senior pastor 2001. Phil has taught apologetics at the Pastors College since 1999 and will teach a course on Christian ethics this coming year.

    Phil’s son Nathan is Academic Assistant to Jeff Purswell,  Dean of the Pastors College, according to the SGM website.  Here is Nathan’s bio:

    http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/events/the-clash/speakers.aspx

    “Nathan Sasser has bachelor’s degrees in English and in Philosophy from North Carolina State University, has an M.Div. from Westminster Theological Seminary, and is a PhD student in philosophy at the University of South Carolina. He also serves as Jeff Purswell’s academic assistant at the Pastors College.”

    And it appears that Daniel Baker, who is a pastor at SGC Apex, is Phil Sasser’s son-in-law.  Would someone please confirm this?  Funny that it doesn’t say anything on the church website about this connection.

    http://sovgracenc.org/who-we-are/pastors-and-staff/

    Looks like the Sasser family is as entrenched in SGM as the Mahaney clan.  I guess Daniel Baker is poised to take over the Apex franchise when his father-in-law retires?

    Not only that, Phil Sasser has taught at the Pastors College and the three pastors at SGC Apex all attended the Pastors College according to their bios.

    Interesting stuff…


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    Trina

    1, 2, 4, 6, 7- true
    3. Complementarianism: some of it I agree with but not to the extent of saying every man must be the sole breadwinner and every woman must stay home etc, I don’t think that’s biblical, I think some of it has become legalistic and its been unnecessarily hurtful to ladies that don’t follow the pattern.
    5. “You believe it might be detrimental to stay.”: undecided

    Hmmm… That’s s whole lot of serious negatives there on top of you not getting what you really want. Ad you say you want to stay? There must be a huge HUGE pro for all that sacrifice.

    Yep, I love the people, I love walking out the Christian life with them.

    You asked about “tithing”. We have an amount that we plan to give to the work of God. It is now allocated much differently than before, but we still give that amount just not to the same places. That is an ongoing issue for us (not wanting to support SGM with our money).

    I don’t think there’s a heavenly reward for staying or leaving. God is at work everywhere, I can serve him where ever I am. We can leave if we want to, it’s a totally fine choice and I commend the people that have left. I wouldn’t recommend SGM churches till I see how this all works out. For example, someone needs to come out and say that what is alleged in the lawsuits was sinful and wrong. Because I’m assuming it’s generally true (there’s been enough witnesses right?), we also need to see some serious repentance. Then I’d feel comfortable inviting people to our church. It would be different for me if our church was no longer associated with SGM. I get what you’re saying and you’re right, I actually do see SGM and my church as separate entities. It’s hard not to, our church is filled with lots of great people that I know very well and my experience with the people I know and love at our church has been great. There are a significant amount of people in our church that have only been at our church for a few years, they have no SGM background/baggage, don’t know who CJ is, don’t care etc. I don’t see those people as SGM and they make up a big part of our church.


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    Lisa–
    Thank you very kindly for answering all of my questions. I know it was a lot. Well…it will be interesting how this pans out for everyone and the churches that are SGM. I think it’s an incredibly horrible situation. I would say to you to keep searching and listening and thinking. No matter how afraid you may be to find out the answers.


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    @ Leila: glad I could provide you some entertainment! Ha!


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    Deb wrote:

    And it appears that Daniel Baker, who is a pastor at SGC Apex is Phil Sasser’s son-in-law.  Would someone please confirm this?  Funny that it doesn’t say anything about it in his bio on the church website.

    Correct, and I know everyone thinks this is all sinister and devious and nepotistic, but I know these guys and they serve our church tirelessly. I really can’t comment on any other SGM church, but these are great pastors. They really, really have a heart for our church. I know you all think I’ve been brainwashed to say that. But I see them living out their lives as Christians and these folks are the real deal.


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    Anon1–

    Lisa’s church was the model church for SGM. As she said, they are nothing like the rest if them. In fact, her church had an issue with the polity before Brent’s docs. They are the right ones. Don’t forget that. Therefore, the changes really aren’t needed so much with them, but the rest of SGM… Even though they are part of the system (and haven’t been privy to ANY of these grave sins). And they really are separate from the rest of SGM.

    Yep, separate but equal but partners but separate… So why even call themselves SGM if they are not SGM?


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    Lisa,

    Nepotism is one of the problems that plagues SGM. It really hurts the ministry’s reputation IMHO.


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    Lisa–

    It would be harsh for me to say you are brainwashed because I don’t know that, but I will say the dissonance is like someone playing D major scale against another playing E minor. I am whining very badly. Because what you are saying ABOUT your church is t reflected in your actual feelings. They do not agree. The list you agreed with is a very heavy one and is a deal breaker for most centered and sound thinking individuals. But it seems to me that it doesn’t raise great alarm for you. I do see the relationships you have possibly playing a huge part in why it is so difficult for you to concede that there is something terribly wrong. I understand. I really do. You have a great deal on the line. It is hard.


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    Anon1–

    Say no more… You had me at dark roast. Hmmmm… Can it be French pressed?? Oh yeah.


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    @ Deb:

    I checked all that out this morning, it was interesting. There is also a Sasser homegroup leader and several Martins on staff and as homegroup leaders. There seem to be many family connections. It’s possible there are more if there are other SILs involved with different surnames.

    I find it interesting that CJ chose Phil Sasser to advise him since Phil Sasser also apparently held the same view of Apostles as CJ. It leaves you wondering if it was CJ’s plan to involve someone not well known nanionwide, that seemed obscure, but in reality held to the same Polity views as SGM had in the past.


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    “Correct, and I know everyone thinks this is all sinister and devious and nepotistic, but I know these guys and they serve our church tirelessly. I really can’t comment on any other SGM church, but these are great pastors. They really, really have a heart for our church. I know you all think I’ve been brainwashed to say that. But I see them living out their lives as Christians and these folks are the real deal.”

    I don’t know if you are brainwashed, Lisa, but you have the SGM lingo down pat.


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    Bridget,

    What a tangled web! SGM is so entrenched it is nauseating.


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    Trina wrote:

    Lisa–
    …but I will say the dissonance is like someone playing D major scale against another playing E minor….

    …it seems to me that it doesn’t raise great alarm for you. I do see the relationships you have possibly playing a huge part in why it is so difficult for you to concede that there is something terribly wrong.

    Yes, I totally feel the dissonance. I mean I don’t like what’s happened in SGM but I’m at an SGM church (where many are not that aware of what’s going on). Of course I feel it. The relationships are a huge pull. It’s not just me, every member of my family has many relationships in our church. The problems really do alarm me. Believe me people, I’ve cried on many a shoulder about this stuff.

    I don’t think I said our church is nothing like the rest of them. Just that it’s the only SGM church we’ve been members of, so I don’t have any comparison.

    Bridget:
    We do have a lot of families in our church where there are two generations at the church (three?…I mean couples whose children are grown and have children of their own). We also have some families with the same last name that are unrelated (ie the 3 different Martins you saw are unrelated).


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    Beakerj wrote:

    JeffS, I hear you.

    I think the sources you point to are of a much higher calibre than the ones that I have a problem with, a lot of the determinism I hear about comes from harder core fundamentalists & neo-calvinists, calvinistas if you will. I’m going to have to hold up my hands however & say that while I totally agree with the points you made, I do strongly suspect that any level of calvinism leads to a disguised determinism, no matter how much it tries to avoid this. The level of cognitive dissonance I have experienced (no matter how much thinking/prayer/time/repentance/submission to scripture) while trying to hold to compatibilism myself makes this untenable to me.

    Understood- and believe me I know better than trying to convert anyone to reformed theology on this part of the web.

    I’m simply pointing out that this “all sins are equal” stuff is something that’s been bolted on without any real foundation, and it’s real harmful stuff.

    It’s really a denial that real evil exists in the world- makes me think of Verbal Kent: “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist”.


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    @ Diane: And many others, actually…


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    @ Lisa: Serve, or rule?

    that’s a serious question, btw – I know it looks snarky, but…


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    @ Lisa: I’m going to be completely honest here: it *is* nepotistic.

    It’s been done elsewhere with similar results. I’ve seen it going on outside of SGM and let me tell you, there are far more qualified applicants who were not even considered.

    Nepotism is nepotism is nepotism, and it sure doesn’t smell as good as Gertrude Stein’s rose. (She of “A rose is a rose is a rose” fame.)


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    @ Lisa: I think you would all be better off at another church.

    Seriously. I hope and pray that you act on it soon; I think you already know it in your heart of hearts.

    Sometimes the only healthy thing to do is walk out the door. If you worry so much about regrets, you will stay there forever.

    I don’t want to sound unkind here… I’ve been through the whole lost my friends/lost the people I thought were family/nobody bothered with me anymore thing, and it HURTS. But as you’ve already said, you have kids, and maybe you need to be thinking not only about what’s best for you, but if there’s a healthier situation for them. *Really* thinking about it.

    I hope you guys walk out the door without looking back, and soon.


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    Lisa wrote:

    and I know everyone thinks this is all sinister and devious and nepotistic, but I know these guys and they serve our church tirelessly. I really can’t comment on any other SGM church, but these are great pastors. They really, really have a heart for our church. I know you all think I’ve been brainwashed to say that. But I see them living out their lives as Christians and these folks are the real deal.

    Lisa, before I left my former church, I believed the same things about my former pastor. I defended him to many people who said he was a fake. I saw him and his family as the models of living the Christian walk. You see, they spent a lot of effort cultivating and encouraging that image. And I wanted to believe it. And I did – for seven years….until the masks slipped, the facade crumbled and he was exposed (to a few who were willing to see) as the sexual predator he is. And those that didn’t want to see assisted in the cover-up. And those who did see and tried to speak were ostracized, vilified, and cut off. Friendships of years ended overnight. Please bear in mind that these guys are masters at deception. I find it difficult to believe that a pastor could be as deeply involved in SGM and as closely involved with CJ as your pastor has been and not know a least some of what was going on…..


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    Lisa–

    It is unfair that you have to ultimately make a choice. But what’s even more unfair is that it is very possible that your pastor knows what went on at very high levels in an organization where he is a key leader. His paycheck may also reflect that. If you think that all the other people at SGM churches where these abuses have happened had any different views about their churches than you have of yours, then let me tell you they did not. I began reading the survivor blogs when only maybe two of the molestation/rape stories had been told. There were seriously MANY MANY people coming by from SGM churches to defend their church even saying that the people were liars and this was all a conspiracy to bring down your coalition of churches.

    Now we know that more and more people have come out of the closet and told their stories of suffering in various SGM churches where many of the same men decided cross-organizationally what course of action would be taken. That alone proves that decisions and things aren’t handled on a local level, but at top organizational levels.

    It truly saddens me that a person such as yourself who has kids of her own isn’t really horrified and scared sh*tless that her own children could have been such a statistic, in addition, not be completely and utterly dismayed and disgusted by little kids being raped and pedophiles rings happening in these churches, while glossing over the fact that it is systemic. I think the people on this blog and many others I have encountered know more about your organizational structure, where the power lies, how decisions are made, its history, etc… than you do.

    I mean, I think it is inexcusable for a people to say well, we don’t really know much abut what’s going in. And then just continue on blindly following the masses. You guys at least have enough info to know that there is a problem. Why not investigate it more? Why just settle for what one person tells you because he is your pastor? My dear, you are far too easily satisfied with these pat answers. You are far too trusting and your discernment really coming across as undeveloped.

    Lisa, even if you chose not to leave at this moment but simply admitted how effed up this situation is and that it horrifies you, I think that folks would have more respect in some sense. But it see,s that Dee had to really pull teeth to get you to say how horrible this is and even still your time and voice appeared so passive.

    Bottom line: there is too much self-concern and self-interest in the church for people to take a stand and vote with their feet and say we will not tolerate this EVER!!!! You are one if the lucky ones–this didn’t happen to you. Yet, it pains me to say that I do feel sorry for you that you cannot declare this all as vile and evil that it is and actually struggle with calling a spade a spade. You are loopholing the hell outta this situation and trying to appeal to innocence and lack of knowledge as much as it will win you favor and a pass to say you didn’t know, therefore you aren’t responsible for taking action. Being sorry just isn’t enough. Praying isn’t enough. Simply by staying, your message is loud and clear and it is that you wish to support this organization that is fundamentally flawed because of what’s in it for you. That makes me incredibly sad.


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    VelvetVoice wrote:

    Update: I have been writing this over a couple of days, so I am answering to the first half of the thread. My former pastor never showed up at my father’s service this morning, and I’m pretty disappointed. Where is his care for my soul? I wanted to forgive him and move on, but I can’t get there.

    VelvetVoice, I’m so sorry to hear this. He did not care for your soul and that’s a tough pill to swallow. What horrible timing – ugh! 🙁


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    Lisa, thanks for coming here and commenting so honestly. As I’ve read your comments, I remember my own ambivalence about SGM. Yes, I left. But even so, I still defended them. (This was when many things were still hush-hush.) I still recommended them to people, and although I was actually working for other churches as a musician, I looked down on all the others as not really knowing how to do church right.

    Was leaving difficult? Yes. Change is often difficult, even when it’s a change for the better. But leaving was not as difficult as staying in a situation where I had forgiven but could no longer trust. When I left, I went to work for another church as a musician, so many of my acquaintances did not know it was for a personal reason — I had been forbidden to tell anyone what had actually happened. My husband stayed for various reasons, though he’d never been much of a kool-aid drinker and had bucked the system many times.

    At one point, his homegroup leader told him he needed to MAKE me come back to the church. And my husband said, “No. She is an adult, and she can do whatever she wants to do.” Later, the HGL and his wife came to our house one night to try to talk me into coming back. I quietly but vehemently said NO, and gave a few reasons why I would not be going back, and smiled until my cheeks hurt. To their credit, they told me I was always welcome in their home and at homegroup.

    After this, nobody said a word to my husband about the situation, but he noticed that his name was removed from the membership directory, and our birthdays and anniversary was no longer printed in the bulletin, er, excuse me — announcement sheet. They can’t just say bulletin like normal people.

    One of the reasons people find it difficult to leave is the heavy teaching that equates church membership with marriage. That has been discussed in other threads. They seem to miss the principle that analogies are often imperfect. Sure, it’s honorable to keep your commitments. But the idea that you promise to worship with and only with a particular group of believers for the rest of your life seems incestuous to me. Marriage and church membership may have some similarities, but they aren’t on the same level. Nowhere does the Bible tell us to go out and find more marriage partners, but it does tell us to go into all the world and make disciples. But they wanted to make sure that cold hard cash that could go into the offering buckets wouldn’t be misdirected towards Promise Keepers or spent on WWJD bracelets.

    Though I left, I pretended nothing was wrong, and even recommended them to people. I looked down on the church where I worked as just not knowing how to do church, and even joked about being a missionary to them. It shames me to admit that. And yet, at the same time I was defending them, I couldn’t figure out why I felt upset and unsettled every time anyone even said SGM, or mentioned their latest CD release or marriage conference.

    It was a few years before I could admit how deeply the SGM incident had affected me. I had no idea that blogs existed. One night, I clicked some random link on FB, and in a few moments found myself on the sgmrefuge blog, then survivors and TWW. At first, I was defensive. How could people say all these things? And as I continued, it became clear that the affront I’d left over, though small in the grand scheme, was a symptom of a huge problem of control and manipulation. God began to heal me and set me free, and gave me a huge amount of compassion for those who had been hurt, especially now for the children who were doubly abused due to the arrogance of the SGM theocracy. And I thought about people who had quietly disappeared over the years, and I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that something was rotten in Gaithersburg, and we could smell it all over the nation.

    And the HGL and wife? They’re out now! And many of the women who’d tsk-tsk’d me in the grocery store when they asked where I was going to church are now out, too, and the huge sorrow and burden I had for those who were being flim-flammed is lifted. There are still a few who have their heads in the sand, but I hope they’ll find freedom soon.

    Lisa, I can really understand your ambivalence. I hope the Lord will lead you out of there to a healthy place. Keep reading, keep researching, keep praying, and know that you are not alone.


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    Hi Lisa
    Kudos to you for sticking around. A question if I may. I’m not in the US and have had no exposure to SGM except through those who share on TWW. However I have left a church and experienced hurtful shunning, and the relationships that you thought were friendships fade to black.
    My question to you is: have you experienced similar hurt or pain in any of your church attendance history to date? I suppose what I’m really trying to ask is: have you ever had any first-hand experience of what those who are commenting here are describing and warning you about?
    I hope I’m not being too impertinent by asking this.


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    Trina wrote:

    Side note: TWW is to CJ Mahaney/SGM as Steph Drury is to Mark Driscoll. Discuss.

    Oh, my bad, ?Freudian slip or something, but I read CJ and instead answered with Piper! Here’s a weak twitter-esque CJ nut-ism.
    @CeejMahaney: Driscoll is to be mightily emulated, so I also read my wife’s emails. #CJwifesmokin’hawt #whited sepulchers


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    Trina

    Thank you for understanding what I am trying to do with Lisa. For me, the bottom line always is to focus on the victims. I become deeply concerned when the emphasis is on defending the Christian commitment of the pastor and leaders. When one focuses on the victims, things change. You begin to wonder why people have not reached out to these families in any significant ways. You wonder why people can go on with business as usual while such pain exists within a structure.

    I just needed to hear of one such occurrence in one of my former churches to walk out. I could not worship amongst people who blew it off. I gave up a large Sunday school class that I loved and became subject, along with some friends, to the wrath of those who would not accept what happened or take responsibility for doing it.

    However, I sleep better at night. I have never, ever regretted standing up for the victims and consider doing so one of the best acts of my life, even with the pain that came in doing so. Living a nice, safe life amongst a cozy little group of friends (well, maybe they are, maybe they are not-try walking out and see) is not the point of Christianity. 


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    Haitch wrote:

    My question to you is: have you experienced similar hurt or pain in any of your church attendance history to date? I suppose what I’m really trying to ask is: have you ever had any first-hand experience of what those who are commenting here are describing and warning you about?

    No, not to the level that some here and on survivors have experienced. I know people first hand who’ve been hurt, but again not at that level. I appreciate that deb & dee and other bloggers are exposing this stuff. I just don’t think it’s necessary for every single person to leave their SGM church because of it.

    I think there’s a place for staying and addressing problems, though I don’t think anyone should feel compelled to stay. And that doesn’t mean we’ll stay forever. It would be different for me if my pastor actually did some of the things alleged in the lawsuit or if I was aware of situations like this at my church. But I think injustice can be addressed without necessarily having to leave.

    I think progress can and is being made at our church. They know to call the police. I recently learned that they utilize outside help when needed in counseling situations (such as psychiatrists).

    However, I still think it’s detrimental to our church to be associated with SGM (that’s what I meant about detrimental above, went back and read it again)…both the influence and the appearance of being associated with it.


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    Lisa, this is me being snarky and angry; so be warned. You are upholding a corrupt system where children are still in danger. You are complicit. This is cowardly, selfish behavior. You have NO concern for the victims, known and unknown. Child molesters have to be kept separate in prison so that that the other convicts won’t kill them. The consciences of convicts are more sensitive than yours.

    I realize that I won’t convince you; but you need to hear how strongly people feel about this and I am tired of being polite about it.


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    Lisa –

    "However, I still think it’s detrimental to our church to be associated with SGM (that’s what I meant about detrimental above, went back and read it again)…both the influence and the appearance of being associated with it."

    So it appears, then, that you (or your church) is making a sacrifice for the greater good of something? What that "something" IS I don't see.

    You'd rather not be associated with SGM (for good reason) so staying makes no sense. What I have quoted above you have stated several times in different ways. Yet, it seems very unlikely that your church will leave SGM since your pastors are completely immersed in the polity writing process. It wouldn't look very good if Sasser didn't sign up for the polity position he helped create.

    Your church isn't leaving SGM, so I find it very strange that you keep making comments as quoted above. It seems that you either aren't being sincere when you state such things, or you aren't living in reality. Only you know.

    In any case, the polity laid out by the polity committee gives NO decision making to the people in the pews. You are just along for the ride . . . unless you leave your friends. The very people that build their lives together, as their leaders encourage so strongly, get ripped apart if they come to a point when they can't support the leaders.

    The leaders ARE in a position to rule over the congregants instead of serving among them. They, in turn, answer to the men on boards outside of their church, instead of to the people who know them best and live among them. No thanks.


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    @ Nickname:

    “One of the reasons people find it difficult to leave is the heavy teaching that equates church membership with marriage. That has been discussed in other threads.”

    Some of the people at my old PCA church tried to pull this one on my family because we weren’t joining. There are so many obvious holes in the church membership/marriage analogy, plus it’s not spelled out anywhere in the Bible. It’s a lot like the forced analogy between marriage and the Trinity. Both are totally useless, unscriptural, and an express route to all sorts of false teaching.


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    Lisa, If anything, leave for your kids sake.This is not about you but about them.All of this crap is being ingrained in their minds as if it is solid truth.Think about the impact(damage) your teachings and church is having on them.Hopefully you will do the right thing for their sake.It’s not always about you.


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    When I first heard of the sex abuse coverups, I was certain that this kind of thing had not happened in my former SGM church. There had been several molestations of children by church members, and those perps had all ended up in jail. One is due to be released TODAY after a 20-year sentence, and it is heartbreaking to think that he will be on the loose again

    However, I have since found out that there was at least one huge problem that was ‘handled in house’ rather than reported to authorities. So, I have to wonder — how many more? The focus was on forgiveness of the perp and repentance of the perp — and the person who forgave has suffered mightily. No counseling provided, just forgive and be friends with someone who violated your trust, your emotions, and your body. Perhaps the agressor seriously repented — if so, he’s breathed a huge sigh of relief. But the victim — how horrible that the victim was left with no help, just ‘forgive and go on your merry way,’ as if nothing had happened to the innocence that SGM idolizes. And then, your merry way is nothing more than a downward spiral. It is wrong, wrong, wrong on so many counts.

    Forgiveness and repentance are wonderful things, but coercing or even expecting someone to sit in church next to a perpetrator goes beyond forgiveness and repentance. It shows a lack of compassion, a cavalier attitude towards suffering, a total ignorance of the body of knowledge about sexual deviance, arrogance towards the legal system, and nowhere reflects the love and character of God.

    Every single SGM pastor and member should be demanding answers about these horrible abuses of power — on their way out the door back to real Christianity. If SGM leaders could coerce forgiveness from victims, people should be coercing confessions and restitution from the leaders.

    Though I am no longer a member, when I heard of some allegations that were far too familiar, I picked up the phone and called the guy who is inappropriately known as a pastor. Though my husband is no longer a member, he went straight to the guy and asked, among other questions, “How can you stay affiliated with this?” The answer was “We will not be separating from SGM.” I have to wonder if they know that the lid is going to be blown off, and they cannot afford legal help unless they’re under the SGM umbrella. And I also have to wonder if SGM has played the ‘we’ve got way too much stuff on you — better toe the line’ card. They’ve done it before, as is shown in The Documents.

    Long before the blogs started, I remember hearing or reading that one of the Ceej’s instructions to pastors was to google their own name every morning to see if anyone had said anything bad about them. To me, this is further proof of a long-standing paranoia and CYA attitude that permeates the SGM leadership.

    I hope that every victim of SGM’s Pollyannish view of horrific criminal behavior will join the class action suit, and in so doing also receive some legitimate help. Every SGM member deserves to know the truth about what happened in the churches they supported physically, financially, emotionally, and spiritually.

    When one abuse case happened in our church, a letter was sent out saying that the perp had felt convicted of his sin at Celebration, and confessed after returning home. Now I know that someone walked in on a crime — and then there was a confession. Though this man went to prison, I am appalled to find out that we were lied to about the discovery of the crime. There was no reason for such a lie. No reason to somehow super-spiritualize the criminal.

    I can understand how people can think that nothing of such magnitude happened in their church, because I used to think the same thing. But we are past the point of remaining naive. Ask the hard questions, demand honest answers, and pay attention to the red flags. I ignored them for many years.

    If all of us had heeded the signs, we’d never have given the money that enables this machine to continue its carnage of people’s very lives. Think of all the money you gave over the years; the money you spent on books, cd’s, and conference fees that were far greater than the actual cost of the event. It is that money that has enabled one abuse after another. It is that money that enables the legal defense of these indefensible acts toward precious little children. It is that money that makes SGM look all shiny and biblical in the eyes of the RBD’s and others in the evangelical world.

    Demand answers. We funded this mess. We have every right to ask questions. Whether we’ll get honest answers is yet to be seen, but hopefully the court will be able to see through the smokescreen. Do not continue to be naive and believe the spin. Think of the horror of children being split up and sent to foster care while their father was coddled by leaders who coveted his tithe. Think of the horror experienced by Happymom and Wallace’s children. Think of a toddler being brought back into a room with a rapist and expected to extend forgiveness. Think of a young girl having to go to youth group with and sit in church next to the guy who molested her. Think of the victims, and don’t think, ‘well, this didn’t happen to me or in my church.’ Yes, it did. It happened to all of us.

    Don’t think of helping SGM to reform. Think of bringing SGM leaders to their knees for what they have done to innocent victims, not just once, but over and over again. And realize that they did it not only to the specific victims, but to all of us. They violated our trust. They violated our financial support. They violated the laws of God and man. They violated the reputation of the church. They must be STOPPED from doing this, ever again. Not because we are vindictive; no — because we cannot stand by and allow one more injured child, one more devastated parent to be victimized by the very people who should be helping them.

    Strip away the idea of good teaching — the word tells us that knowledge will pass away. Strip away the idea of worship cd’s. Strip away the glitz. Those things pass away. The three that should remain are faith, hope and love — the greatest of these is love. Is there really love for these children, for the people? The only love I see now is the love of power.

    SGM pastors and members, ask God to give you true love for the hurting wounded people, especially the children who are in your churches or who have run from your churches. To retorque one of SGM catch phrases, become part of the solution, not part of the problem.

    Whew.


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    @ Nickname:
    Whew, indeed. But . . . Amen!


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    Nickname,

    Thank you for that heartfelt comment.  I grieve for the victims.  We must never lose sight of those who have been hurt.  I hope everyone connected to this forum will keep them in their prayers.


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    @ Nickname: Superb comment, Nickname!!!


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    Nickname,

    The best answers I have ever heard to the arguments current SGM members give for staying! Well done.


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    Nickname wrote:

    Don’t think of helping SGM to reform. Think of bringing SGM leaders to their knees for what they have done to innocent victims, not just once, but over and over again. And realize that they did it not only to the specific victims, but to all of us. They violated our trust. They violated our financial support. They violated the laws of God and man. They violated the reputation of the church. They must be STOPPED from doing this, ever again.

    Amen and AMEN.


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    Nickname–

    That was incredible. THank you. Every bit of what you said is on point.

    Phoenix–

    I totally get you and think what you said is completely appropriate. Because this is life and death for people. My goal was to patiently and slowly draw out some conclusions for Lisa that she cannot attain on her own. So I just wanted to be patient, even though it angered me–especially her avoidance to answer Dee’s questions. Also, I wanted to avoid the we’re “angry” and “bitter” and whatever else, and just take my time and wait and see if she would be more sincere about her feelings. What makes me afraid is that because of her lack of suffering, so to speak, and her love of comfort, relationships and her pastors, I am not getting that she really hurts as bad as one would for these children. That really bothers me.

    Dee–

    Yes, I knew what you were trying to do. But I saw that it was being ignored. And this is the bottom line: “Living a nice, safe life amongst a cozy little group of friends (well, maybe they are, maybe they are not-try walking out and see) is not the point of Christianity.” I am scared to think that people have a hard time with feeling overwhelming compassion for hurt children, but time and time again, these SGMers prove it. Western Christianity is a suburban mess with coffee houses, stupid theoretics, comfortable homes, Kitchen-Aids and SAHMs. That something amiss is the strangeness I cannot identify when a theological framework turns it’s followers into people who are incapable of true compassion for some of the worst situations imaginable. It appears they are more disgusted and find deplorable premarital sex than they do a pedophile having sex with a child.

    And Lisa–

    I am not speaking about you as if you aren’t in the “room”, so to speak. I wouldn’t be that rude.