I had no idea you were Southern Baptist, Deb! So am I!

Well said Anon 1 and most likely very close to the truth of the matter.

I am hoping that Joshua Harris will examine all of his authoritarian beliefs, including the gender debates. As much as I disagree with him on some doctrinal issues, I respect him for standing up to CJ.

Ryan, I know I will be pilliored for this from many quarters but lots of people are thinking Harris has had some huge change of heart. I doubt it very seriously. It is not that unusual for a protege to turn against their mentor. Happens all the time. Just not in public ministry. Harris might be into some form of a kindler gentler authoritarianism since his go round with Mahaney. But I think that is the extent of it. Harris grew up in the bubble world of patriarchy and authoritarianism. If you really think about it, what “real” world has he lived in daily since he was born?

“Os Guinness has preached at my Northern Virginia church a number of times over the years; I have great respect for him. Why is he allowing himself to associate with the likes of Mark Dever and Michael Lawrence?”

Singleman, I cannot get people to understand this. They go where they are asked and where there are audiences. Not too much else really matters. Look at how long it took folks to distance themselves from Driscoll. And it was only when Driscoll made a mass media fool of himself. It is that simple.

I soon will have been a member of the SBC for 39 years and it is only a shadow of the Great denomination it used to be and I have no hope for it to turn around. Divisiveness is seemingly in all SBC churches.

Mot, the tribal divisiveness can be tracked to Mohler. In the old days, many were laughing off Patterson as a bull in a china shop who was one step ahead of the firing ax for 20 years.

Mohler is no laughing matter. He has been quietly at work affecting his revolution for a long time. He is a strategic thinker and knew what he was doing. The man is diabolically brilliant. We will see how much the Mahaney factor is going to be a problem for him. His trustees for whom he is accountable are yes men.

Ryan’s comment made me realize something. And while yes, I agree CLC’s departure from SGM is a big deal, I’m not optimistic about it, and I haven’t been able to give my congratulations.

I direct a lot of my criticism to SGM’s leadership, and I don’t give a pass to the enabling wives. However, I was equally unimpressed with a lot of the members of CLC. In fact, it was problems with other members that took me to the offices of the various pastors in CLC for counsel and advice, and you can imagine how fruitful that was. Especially as a woman when those visits, which were fairly routine, were often about problems in my marriage. A woman in CLC had no chance of being recognized unless her husband was a pastor or a caregroup leader, in which case, she better not be experiencing any problems in her marriage. That only happened in the more sinful lives of the underlings, whose marriages didn’t meet the standard of being “heaven on earth” (the description all the pastors used to describe their marriages). But I digress…

It was an everyday occurrence within the church to interact with people who were zoned out. Within the hierarchical ranks, you were valued on the basis of your position which was rewarded with a profile on the back of the Sunday bulletin – CLC’s Who’s Who. I’ve never known so many stuck-up humble people.

To my shame, I remembering sitting in the new CLC auditorium, listening to CJ say “he would rather DIE than do what Larry Tomczak did” and then instruct everyone to trust the pastors and not ask questions.

I sat in on care group after care group meeting being led by people who were so controlled that they became clones, subservient to “the leadership.”

I had numerous run-ins with members, mostly women, who attempted to make me or my kids look bad for something for something their kid did wrong – because their “reputation” in the church was more important than the truth. I lived among these people. I know how they were. They were militant about their image. If their kid did something wrong, they had to find someone to blame it on. They could never be at fault. And if they were at fault, there was no court of appeal. No fairness. No justice. The thing was rigged. And when I finally saw that the problem was systemic, I couldn’t have gotten out of there soon enough.

But it was systemic. It wasn’t just the pastors. It was the people, the members. They were all part of the problem. And a lot of those people at CLC are the same ones that sat there when CJ told them not to question the leadership. Who blindly followed whatever they were told, and did so with a militancy that equaled that of those in leadership. And if you questioned them, or questioned the leadership, they reacted immediately in self-defence. The amount of pride was palpable. It was leaven. And believe me, it was part of the whole lump.

So, good for CLC for leaving, but I’ve watched the process unfold, and I’ve read what’s been written. I know the leadership and I know the members there who have stuck around, and couldn’t think themselves out of a paperbag unless the instructions to do so were first approved of by someone “in leadership.” I mean seriously, if you had no place else to go and are attached to the church by virtue that you couldn’t leave, that you have no guts, no courage, or convictions that would have lead you to leave AGES AGO, then fine – stick around and stay until the game is over, and you can help pick up the beer cans. But don’t expect anyone to congratulate you and “thank you for serving,” as if youre doing Jesus a favor. Because at that point, you’re only serving yourself imo.

I wish I could say the members of CLC were staying attached to the group by virtue of their faith in God and their devotion to Christ. But I left because that wasn’t my experience among the membership then, and I doubt that’s the experience there now. If it was, I would have never called it a cult.

So, forgive me if this seems harsh and unsympathetic, but I think SGM’s problems were totally systemic. I don’t agree with their supposed charismatic reformed calvinistic doctrines. I think its full of heresy, and I haven’t heard anything coming out of CLC that takes issue with SGM’s doctrine. Seems to have been just one big power & personalities clash, by all appearances. You don’t “come out and be separate” in the true sense over that. You identify the theological issues and then come to the realization, like I did, that you can’t reform heresy, you renounce it. And I haven’t heard CLC identifying and rejecting any doctrinal problems. Quite the opposite. They keep emphasizing how much they share in common, their unbroken band of brotherhood. Sounds like CLC is just an offshoot now. A sect of SGM. That how I see it anyway.

Real promotions seen at the mall this week:
One Day Sale –48 hours only!!
EVERYTHING 40 PERCENT OFF!! (Exceptions apply)
EVERYTHING (up to) 50 PERCENT OFF!!
Is CJ training retailers in SGM-speak?
You decide!
Merry Christmas!
*aPostle* Dave

Sometimes iron dulls iron. Ever see what a sledge hammer applied to the edge of a blade does to the edge? CJ is a sledge hammer and Mohler is a blade (rapier, I would think); the result will eventually come to light, because no hierarchist as willful as those two are can stand to be tied in authority with someone else, let alone second fiddle.

“Honestly, to me, it just seems like they use each other to get what they want. That may seem harsh, but it is what I see with these men who, by their positions, should be caring for people and not figuring out how they can get more followers. ”

I think that is exactly it. They also affirm each other at the same time. Mutual admiration society. It is good for the king to have other kings affirming him, sort of thing.

It is not unlike some business partnerships at that stratosphere. You ignore a lot of stuff in order foe each side to get what it wants out of the partnership.

“When it comes to Mahaney and Mohler, I’m not sure who is leading who. They are two people who probably shouldn’t be together as cohorts. There doesn’t seem to be iron sharpening iron anywhere in that twosome. They seem more like enablers enabling their personal enabler.”

Mohler is in a tricky situation. While he is pope for now and still putting his loyal court ministers in top positions, he cannot take back words he said to reporters about Mahaney. In these situations it often works for a while to pretend like nothing is happening. Mahaney could turn out to be a huge albatross around his neck in Louisville. After all, all of a sudden SGM is no longer meeting at Christian Academy but has moved to a hotel to meet. No one is talking about why which speaks volumes if you know how that sort of thing works. “Move along, nothing to see here”.

The problem is, can Mohler shut Mahaney’s groveling affirmations up? :o)

Patti wrote:

…Piper is teaching the young generation to cause division in the churches that hire them.
“One of the most common things I deal with in younger pastors is conflict with their senior pastors,” Piper said. “They’re a youth pastor, and they’ve gone to Trinity or read something [R.C.] Sproul or I wrote, and they say, ‘We’re really out of step. What should we do?’”
He tells them to be totally candid and ask permission to teach according to their new found convictions, even if they are in Wesleyan-Arminian churches. Of course, he tells the young pastors to pray that their bosses would come to share their vision.

Two things here.

First: I haven’t researched John Piper’s influence on congregations with which he has no relationship, so I can’t comment on the above in any detail. But it describes a sad state of affairs: pastors who are, by definition, immature Christians. Hebrews describes such people as “blown and tossed by every wind of doctrine”. A person who reads one book, and as a result: is thrown theologically; becomes embroiled in conflict with the mentor they’re in actual relationship with; runs off and consults with the author who doesn’t know them from Adam – that’s hardly a person you could call established in any kind of faith, and therefore that is not someone who should be shepherding others in the faith – at least, not until they’re older.

You cannot teach “new-found convictions”; you can only teach established convictions that you have lived with in complex circumstances and tempered with real-life, practical love. And how can you develop a “conviction” merely from reading something that Piper, or Sproul, or Nick Bulbeck, wrote?

Anon1:

Imo only lip service is given to missions in SBC circles anymore and many sbc churches do not wish to know about the political goings on in the SBC.

As has been shared on other blogs, especially SGMSurvivors.com, it is a shame that Josh Harris/CLC used such flowery, “politically correct” and somewhat evasive language in giving their reasons for leaving.

In this transcript of a CLC members meeting (that CLC tried to keep private) CLC at least lists some reasons for leaving SGM but barely mentions the integrity issues

http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2012/12/16/covenant-life-church-severs-ties-with-sovereign-grace-minist.html

http://sgmrefuge.com/2012/11/30/clc-nov-4-members-meeting/

Why didn’t CLC spell out the issues they have SGM for the body of Christ to see. This is especially the integrity issues with C.J. Mahaney. They really should have spelled out the reasons.

Someone posted this on Survivors “Upon reading their announcement, it seems to me that the pastors are not interested in burning any bridges, rather only repainting the bridges with a different color scheme and adding border crossing guards to control the flow of traffic back and forth. The announcement was cordial to a fault.”

I think that was a good way of summarizing CLC’s approach.

@ Sergius Martin-George:

Sergius, that was hilarious 🙂

Dave A A –

Dave Harvey’s usefulness meter has run out. He did all of CJ’s bidding for six months and will now fade into black.

Dee said: “Right now, it’s just a food fight between a bunch of guys who should ALL be ashamed of themselves for allowing this to continue all these years. ”

Can you imagine if they do get deposed, Dee? With so many churches cutting ties with SGM, all the information that was kept quiet all these years will have to be discussed. It is going to be a very tense and awkward time with pastors who once were rubbing shoulders with one another, protecting one another and now will have to disclose important information that they’ve known all along. It will be interesting to see who will be BFFs with whom once this thing is all settled.

It is going to be a very tense and awkward time with pastors who once were rubbing shoulders with one another, protecting one another and now will have to disclose important information that they’ve known all along. It will be interesting to see who will be BFFs with whom once this thing is all settled.

My hunch is that with the disclosures, more and more members will leave, regardless of whether their churches still have ties to SGM or not. There are *so* many people in the web (of former “pastors,” etc.) that I can’t help wondering just how many people will end up being named and – possibly – exposed.

Dave A A wrote: I’m trying to imagine what a newer CFC pew sitter might think. “Dave’s resigning from worldwide building and planting SO THAT he can resume shepherding US full time? Wow! that’s great! Has Jared been called elsewhere? No? Well, at least Dave will add greatly to our team…until August 31st… What?! Why only until then? No plans at all after that? Aren’t we tithing enough? I’ll increase my pledge!”

deposed

To me it sounds like some type of “severance” package Dave Harvey has been given. Keep him on the payroll for 8 months so he can find some other type of employment. Weird how CFC is apparently paying this “severance” cost and not SGM.

Harvey could always talk for the Peacemaker Group like he has done in the past. 😉

Possible topics:

– Your leader has sinned and has been exposed; how to call exposing the leader’s sin “gossip” and “slander”
– Did Paul really mean in I Tim 5:22 to “to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.” What we decided it really meant: Not if he is group’s popeleader.
– Have a church member who questions too much and want to silence? Label him or her as “divisive.”
– How to cultivate in your members a “healthy” fear of questioning leadership: teach that members questioning is “gossip” and “slander.” (Test proven in SGM for almost 30 years)

I have been SBC since 1964. I can’t tell you how different it is now. Now it is like a business. Someplace we lost our missionary drive for saving souls, for a money making, authoritarian denomination…I am afraid it will become like the other mainstream denominations. A dying hulk of its former self….and that may not be such a bad thing…

“Duncan tweeted: “The @SBTS President’s home, at night, at Christmastime. Good times with friends @albertmohler @CJMahaney.”

Matt23: 5-12:

“5 But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their [a]phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6 They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called [b]leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.”

A story for Pharisees-

“There was a man, that we will call Mr. Smith, who was sitting in Church with his wife. He had just dozed off, during the pastor’s sermon, when he awoke to the sound of the collection plate coming around. He watched as the people next to him put in what they could afford, which was very little. When the collection plate reached him, he cleared his throat very loud, as to gain the attention of all those around him, and put a hundred dollar bill into the collection plate. When Church was over, he was edging his way through the crowd towards the front door and saw a statue of Jesus. He thought to himself, “he needs a haircut and a shave” …

On the way to his favorite restaurant for brunch, he came upon a stoplight and saw one of THOSE people. You know, the ones with a sign that says “will work for food” … This guy had long hair, a beard and very dirty, worn out clothing. As he came to a stop, Mr. Smith rolled up the electric windows in his new Cadillac and turned his head away from the poor looking man, who was now just outside his window, with his hand stretched out towards Mr. Smith. After what seemed like forever, to Mr. Smith, the stoplight turned green. Before Mr. Smith pulled off, he rolled down the window and yelled out, “Hey, ya bum … get a job” and then sped off laughing.

A few years later, Mr. Smith died of cancer and ended up at God’s Judgment seat. Jesus asked Mr. Smith why it was that he thought he was worthy to get into Heaven. Mr. Smith said proudly that he donated a hundred dollars every time his wife could drag him to Church. Jesus asked if that was the only reason and Mr. Smith said, “Yes, of course, I have paid for my way into Heaven” …

Jesus looked at Mr. Smith and said … “I disagree … You failed to have compassion and love for your fellow man, when the opportunity arose. You are greedy and selfish and are not worthy to enter Heaven.” Mr. Smith, convicted by Jesus’ Words, turned and started walking away with his head hung low.

Then Jesus said …

“And, by the way Mr. Smith … I am no bum and I DO have a JOB.””

http://www.christianityoasis.com/keyword/Pharisee.htm

Wow, didn’t I see that house on GCB last year? I got bored with that show after a few episodes but I failed to see why so many were so upset about it. I mean it looks like to me their motto is “if you got it, flaunt it.”

One of the perks of a seminary president beside the high salary is getting the Presidents home for free. Mohler has lived there a long time. Since 93, I think. His kids probably don’t remember any other home.

It was bandied about on blogs a while back that seminary presidents don’t even have to supply their own toilet paper as the home is part of facilities. One can get used to that life including the free labor of students who clean and serve there.

Anon 1,
If you are really curious, you can google some trailers for on youtube. I didn’t want to post a link in case of offending anyone here.

@ Deb:

Now how did I miss that one? Duh.

And didn’t Mohler tweet that SBTS would become Great Commission Baptist seminary after the vote? I drive past that place several times per week and the signs have not been changed. :o)

“Someone said that Mohler would be stuck with the words he said about CJ. Don’t be too sure about that. As facts come out in the lawsuit, Mohler can say, “I wasn’t aware of THAT etc.” and do the proper distancing.”

Well, his followers can choose to believe that if they want. But he has a problem in that he specifically mentions bloggers in a negative light as not liking firm leadership to a reporter. How could he do that and then claim he did not know about THE blog? He already looks disingenuous as it is. His followers will be his followers. It is all they know. They choose willful ignorance.

” personally would not want to affiliate with a denomination that did not have a doctrinal statement, such as the CBF. I know many fine Christians in churches that affiliate with CBF, but I think that the approach of having a clear doctrinal statement affirming Christian essentials is preferable to not having a doctrinal statement.

I believe this is being faithful to Christ and it is very helpful in practical Christian mission.”

Thanks, this brought a huge chuckle. You might convince yourself of but the truth is that right now the BFM2000 is being debated to death by rank and file pastors, seminarians, college professors and lay people who care as to whether or not it communicates the Calvinistic principle of imputed guilt of which the Reformed position hangs. And there are Mohler followers out there actually naive enough to think Mohler, in 2000, would not have dared go along with anything that was not Calvinistic enough. They really think they know him.

Yeah, watching the acrimonious debate shows how “Christ honoring” such doctrinal statements are. :o)

“

Anon 1, I believe, willful ignorance. A lot of people really don’t care about the truth. They’d rather live in their Christian Disneyland than face reality. They are happy to live in their pretend world.

Eagle how about checking this out. The website is :
http://www.unccornerstone.org All by Myself The “M” word
Scroll down to the three yellow X X X. Teaching grown men
on purity at colleges by Joshua Harris.

Anon1:

Just like you – I only try to give my own opinions.

I did not say it would be easy for Mohler and Dever. But time will tell. And move they will.

CJ has, or will, also move. On the whole Apostle thing. I know that Mohler and Dever are not down with that.

The lawsuit will make CJ seriously rethink the Apostle thing.

Anonymous –

SGM’s proposed new polity is quiet on the Apostle issue, however, it is very strong on “hierarchy.” It reads more like RCC (that is not meant to upset anyone) than anything. There is no place in their new polity for the believers in the pews to decide any thing. They can only voice their opinions by leaving or staying. Even the local Pastors have little upward input.

dee wrote:

Steve240
Do you think this just has something to do with his kids? SGM has always had two standards: 1 for pastors and 1 for everyone else. Thoughts?

Dee

I assume you are asking about Dave Harvey stepping down. If so, it is no secret that Dave Harvey has had issues with his children (some adult) not behaving as is expected of leader’s children in SGM. It has been reported that Harvey’s kids have had more issues than other pastors that were forced to step down due to those pastors have family issues.

CFC had some type of meeting even where some type of apology was given to Bill Patton and another former pastor that were forced to step down due to family issues. Apparently it was easy for Harvey to criticize, judge and force other pastors to step down before he had teenagers of his own with their own behavior problems. Harvey’s own children have had their own issues when they became older.

For a while it was like they were changing the rules for Harvey when Harvey was being trapped by the same standards and consequences he imposed on others.

If you read Harvey’s statement it does refer to family needs. Thus it is just my hunch that Harvey is stepping down due to needs of his family.

Anon 1 wrote:

Thanks, this brought a huge chuckle. You might convince yourself of but the truth is that right now the BFM2000 is being debated to death by rank and file pastors, seminarians, college professors and lay people who care as to whether or not it communicates the Calvinistic principle of imputed guilt of which the Reformed position hangs.

This reminds me of a short story in the Grantville Gazette, an anthology of stories set in the universe of Eric Flint’s 1632 series, where a contemporary West Virginia town gets kicked one-way into 1632 Central Europe, at the peak of the Thirty Years’ War.

The story, “Hobson’s Choice”, centers around London acquiring some “uptimer” books and articles, one of which mentions a “crop failure” with higher yields than “downtimer” agriculture can produce even in bumper years. This attracts the attention of some Oxford students who try to investigate, but come up against the brick wall of their elders, whose main interest in the uptimers is using them to prove their Theological theories re Predestination, Election, Imputed Guilt, Penal Substitutionary Atonement, etc. (Uptimer agriculture meaning an end to downtimer famines is apparently too worldly.) The Oxford students finally make an end run around the establishment and send their own expedition to the uptimer town on the Continent.

“Yes, the BFM has been debated and debated in various points, and will be.

But it’s better to have a doctrinal statement that affirms things like the deity of Christ, his virgin birth, his work on the cross, his resurrection, salvation in him etc., and debate the meaning or existence of imputed sin etc. than it is to have no doctrinal affirmation at all.”

It is sad there are still people around who are so proud of the scortched earth CR. They used a few problems here and there to go on a witch hunt and ruin many people. Oh, and a doctrinal statement did not stop the problem from happening on either side. Funny how that works.

Dee,

Iowa dentist fires female staff member because he can’t control his thoughts. She’s worked for him for 10 years, never been an incident. Fired her at his pastor’s suggestion and to appease his wife, court upholds.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/12/21/iowa_dentist_james_knight_fired_a_woman_for_being_irresistible_did_he_break.html

Anon1:

You said:”It is sad there are still people around who are so proud of the scortched earth CR.”

Sadly, there are quite a few of these people still around who know the truth about what happened to the Southern Baptist Convention and do not seem to care about the lives they destroyed. I will always argue that while destroying the lives of others in the SBC they destroyed the SBC. I readily recognize that that is my opinion.

What are the details of Dave Harvey’s problems with his adult children? I’m only asking because several families in my former church have had problems with their adult children, and some needed to pay and some it was overlooked. I am asking also to know how better to deal with spiritual issues with my teenage daughter. I’m very confused about these issues, and there is no one I know that I would trust with these issues. Most of the people I know whitewash their pasts and their family issues. To me, this is one of the most destructive reasons of the contemporary church, and a main reason why kids don’t put any effort into their spiritual walk. Hypocrisy reigns.

Linda:

Supposedly the CR was about getting the Pastors and others out of the SBC who did not believe the Bible. That was 33 years ago and IMO the SBC is like humpty dumpty, it can not be put back together.

This weird focus on peoples’ *adult* children is something I’ve never understood – if they’re truly adults, they’re responsible for their behavior, *not* their parents.

Just another sign of the many illnesses within SGM, I guess… ?

numo: Adult children are property of their parents until they are married = patriarchy movement (part of homeschool movement). Don’t get me going. I still have presents to wrap.

Iowa dentist fires female staff member because he can’t control his thoughts. She’s worked for him for 10 years, never been an incident. Fired her at his pastor’s suggestion and to appease his wife, court upholds.
~ Fendrel’s link ~

Maybe a more just and equitable solution for the court to rule on, is that said hottie be required to wear a burka during work hours.

That way she wouldn’t lose her livelihood and the dentist and his fundamentalist pastor could be assured that he’d be protected from those awful & evil feelings of “lust” in his heart.

With regard to the dentist firing his employee, that is something to be careful of. It didn’t sound like the dentist and his assistant were in a potentially dangerous one on one situation like you hear people need to be careful about. (One example is a church where there is one pastor and one church secretary where there is potential for the two to get inappropriately involved.) Especially with the dentist’s wife working in the practice I do wonder what potential there really was for it to get out of hand.

The dentist should have at least given the fired dental assistant a more generous severance package than one month’s salary (one judge commented on that being stingy) and included some type of agreement to not sue etc. Maybe more like 3-6 months. I am sure it will take her longer to find a new job than just one month. Maybe the dentist could have even kept her employed for a period of time while she looks for a new job rather than immediately firing her.

Maybe even setting up some strict rules that both the dentist and dental assistant needed to follow to keep their relationship just professional. It was inappropriate for the two to be texting especially the subject of some of their text messages.

VelvetVoice wrote:

I’m only asking because several families in my former church have had problems with their adult children, and some needed to pay and some it was overlooked.

Let me guess — those who were overlooked were the kids of the Man-o-Gawd and his court favorites?

“All Animals Are Equal
BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.”
— G.Orwell, Animal Farm

The big move in Protestantism IS from a “marketing/business” perspective. If I see one more slick web site with a pastor with the “five o’clock shadow” beard and a zippy web presence I am going to get sick. . .

I was shocked but not surprised to see this video of one of CJ. Mahaneys sermons posted:

http://vimeo.com/56049836

It was titled “Unit that Comes from Humility” subtitled “Addressing the threat of the church within, C.J. Mahaney preaches a sermon titled “Unity That Comes from Humility” from Philippians 2:1-4.”
Apparently C.J. Mahaney has no idea that mostly his lack of humility is what has caused a lot of the problems and now the divisions that is occurring withing SGM including various churches leaving. It is quite something for Mahaney to be teaching a message like this after all of his actions. Apparently clear denial or blindness to all he has done.

This would be like Jim Bakker speaking on the sanctity of marriage and using income the church receives properly right after his fall from leading PDI. It would also be like Jimmy Swaggart talking about sexual purity and doing what you preach after being caught a few times with prostitutes.

My guess is that C.J. is appalled by people not being humble to him and how their not being humble to C.J. is threatening C.J.’s (not necessarily God’s) “ministry.” I will try and listen to the message but doubt I can stomach it for very long.

Steve said: Can you clarify what you are saying? I think you are saying something along the lines that a common pattern of abusers is for them to speak against actions that they are themselves guilty of. That certainly sounds like C.J. Mahaney.

Yes, Steve – that’s right, (and it looks like I left an extra word “accuse” in the 2nd sentence, so no wonder it was confusing).

Projection is a psychological term: Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)

The patterns that spiritual abusers use, like projection, are common. Another common pattern among abusive pastors is narcissism. I recently read a report that the job of pastors is in the top 10 professions for narcissists. Narcissism is very dangerous and difficult to treat because they have little to no moral compass for themselves (only for others) – they believe their own lies.

@ Steve240:

Steve – Now I’m curious. I’ve previously read people saying CJ resembles a narcissist. The difference between the two is that the narcissist relies on the validation by others. He must have his ego stroked – it is the fuel that keeps him going. The sociopath uses his power to exploit and uses others for his own enjoyment/pleasure. He does not require validation or ego stroking.

Re the dentist issue: totally agreed it would have been nice for him to give her more severance. However, if her hiring stated she could be fired at any time for any (or no) reason I understand the court backing him as a matter of law.

The burka comments seem to kind of miss one point: she could have been ugly as a pig and covered from head to foot and if he had a lust issue, he had every right to not continue to employ her in HIS business.

My personal suspicion is that there is a bit more to the story. Some of his text messages were so over the line and yet she “just thought of him as a father figure?” Gimme a break, not a healthy father/daughter type relationship at least.

But I freely admit my thoughts are probably tainted by what happened at one church we attended for a while. The pastor and the deacons came up with a good idea: free car care and handyman services for widows and single moms by the men of the church.

Unfortunate unintended consequences were things like the men of the church finding their wives not too keen on being responsible for cleaning their own gutters, tending to the upkeep and oil changes on their own cars, and spending Saturdays alone so the guys could go take care of these other gal’s gutters, cars, etc and spend the day with the other ladies.

Then one of the single mom’s did start hitting on any guy that came over to do a chore. Church tried sending teams of guys out. Wive’s still resentful and still some inappropriate actions from the single gals. Tried sending husband/wife teams. Major complaints from the single women, feeling they were treated like Jezebels.

Finally had a big meeting to discuss the whole issue. What we did was keep sending teams to the older single widows–two guys or a husband and wife team, but only for those in a pickle financially.

Since the married wives were cleaning their own gutters, changing their own sink faucet washers, arranging their own car care, etc, the consensus was that the single mother’s could take care of their own needs also.

Those in a financial pickle could still ask for help from the church, which would come as financial aid so the woman could take care of her own issues.

And we had a week long seminar for the whole church and community on ethical behavior and healthy boundaries.

Sounds to me like the dentist and his assistant could both have used the seminar.

In many states, e.g., Texas, employment is “at will”, which means that an employer may terminate an employee for no reason at all, but may not terminate an employee for a bad reason, such as age, race, gender, being single or married, having a child at home, being attractive or unattractive, or having certain disabilities unrelated to job performance; there are exceptions to all of the above.

Jeanette

Thanks for the information you posted. I believe what you meant is that sociopaths are extreme narcissists on the narcissist scale. I would also add that not all sociopaths murder and most probably don’t have the desire to murder. What distinguishs a sociopath (using Stout’s definition) is they don’t have conscience and thus can and typically will do things that someone with a conscience wouldn’t do. The fact that a sociopath can do something that others wouldn’t dream of doing is dangerous since most people that have consciences couldn’t imagine someone doing something that a sociopath has no problem doing.

You said “In my opinion, part of the reason the Institutional Church (especially in America) is in such a mess is because of the culture that was/is developed that makes it taboo to even THINK ill of the church leadership….narcissistic heaven.” Good point. In general and especially in certain groups like Sovereign Grace Ministries they have for a long time had a culture where questioning leadership or even thinking ill of them was wrong and perhaps even showing rebellion to God since leaders were “God ordained.” Thus as you say produces a “nacissistic heaven” for narcissistic leaders but “hell on earth” for those under these narcissistic leaders.

What is ironic is that SGM Leaders claim they are “imperfect” and is typically a response a member is trained to use when people bring up issues about them. Sadly few SGM Leaders are willing to admit their “imperfections” and the group maintained a culture where questioning a supposed “imperfect” leader was wrong.