That Michael Card album is one of my favorites. So many good old MC songs…

Joy in the Journey

Could It Be

That’s What Faith Must Be

Love Crucified, Arose

(I am so old. Yeesh.)

The way to wage twitter battles is to use hashtags in your tweets and this will mobilize twitter users to your cause. The hashtags can be any words that resonate with users either christian or non-christian.

I would encourage to using only one twitter account during a dialog.

I am thinking a verified profile on twitter would be the way to go, but I am guessing it is only given to users who use real names on their twitter id. At @WartWatch, I am guessing Dee Parsons can be made a verified profile, as you are using your real name.

The more you use twitter, the more addicting it becomes. It is a powerful tool to contact users in real time and also challenge any one in authority.

I mean third child. She was our first child. 🙂 Now she’s got two little boys of her own. One thing I like about Michael Card is his love for the Scriptures. His songs are so theologically grounded. It would be wonderful if all bloggers would take his cue. Claiming to be Biblical and Gospel is not enough if you aren’t.

Anyone else seen Driscoll’s latest crap? http://pastormark.tv/2012/09/04/5-reasons-why-esther-may-be-the-toughest-bible-book-ive-ever-preached

He’s preaching through Esther and has recast her as some sort of vapid prostitute. I wish he’d just stop wasting all our time and admit he sees all women as either whore-sluts or slut-whores.

Pam, thanks for the crazy link. My first thought was, “He can find only two heroines in the bible?” The rest just had me speechless. All I can do now is laugh.

When I was in the hospital and they offered to install a catheter I got chills and told them to no. — Eagle

Only way they got one up my urethra was I was under general anesthesia at the time. (Same way they got the NG tube down me.) However, I was awake when they removed them. No fun.

I can’t imagine the idea of labor or popping a child out between my legs. So I would consider women to be quite strong. — Eagle

“TAKE YOUR LOWER LIP! AND PULL IT UP OVER YOUR HEAD!”
— Bill Cosby

Anyone else seen Driscoll’s latest crap? http://pastormark.tv/2012/09/04/5-reasons-why-esther-may-be-the-toughest-bible-book-ive-ever-preached

He’s preaching through Esther and has recast her as some sort of vapid prostitute. I wish he’d just stop wasting all our time and admit he sees all women as either whore-sluts or slut-whores. — Pam

This is Bee Jay Driscoll, remember. The guy’s obsessed. It’s like something out of a Frank Miller comic (whores whores whores whores whores whores whores whores whores…)

Pam –

An antidote to Mark Driscoll’s misogyny – here’s a pastor who advocates for women’s equality and place in the church:

http://eugenecho.com/2012/09/05/the-amazing-speeches-of-women-in-the-conventions-makes-the-silence-of-women-in-the-church-that-much-more-deafening/

Rachel Held Evans has just posted on Driscoll and Esther:

http://rachelheldevans.com/esther-introduction-princess-whore

@ JJ – I came across the Driscoll link at RHE. I was going to just link to her post because the section she quotes of Driscoll is awful, but then I looked at his whole blog post and really, it gets even worse when the whole thing is read. I will say one positive thing for Driscoll from this, though – I read through the entirety of Esther today to see if I could find where on earth he was pulling his crap from (couldn’t find it), and I’m looking forward to RHE presenting her own series on Esther.

Eagle, thanks for posting instead of e-mailing. You have blessed me by sharing your sweet story. Beautiful!!

Eagle

I am glad you are healing in your body, your heart and mind, and in your relationships.

I could not come myself to visit, due to the distance and other commitments, but I did ask a pastor friend in DC to come visit, and she did (did not get to see you due to a procedure in progress) and sent another pastor from her church to see you as well. I suspect you might find Calvary Baptist in DC a place to find acceptance and Christians who emphasize love and grace over control and rules.

Eagle, thank you for sharing that on the blog instead of privately, it was a blessing to read that something good came out of such a terrible experience! It’s so good to see you commenting again. How goes the recovery, by the way? Is your leg healing well?

Deb and Dee:

Thanks for allowing all views. It is refreshingly rare. I guess some folks can not deal in a positive way with dissenting views. This shows something about themselves that they are afraid their view just might be wrong.

Though I do not agree with how you have been treated…in a way, it is part of the cost of what you do. You will be misunderstood…slandered…lied about….and in this way, you will taste a little of the suffering of Christ. He was most persecuted…by the RELIGIOUS persons of the day. I have experienced this as well in my own family, and have dealt with it for years, so I guess I come from the same perspective. Do not retaliate. Let your behaviour evidence class, grace, and show others how to deal with snide remarks and rudeness. You know a lot about a person by who is AGAINST them. Sometimes, sadly, it will be your fellow professing Christians.

Excellent thoughts, justabeliever!

“narcissistic zeros” I think it is hilarious how these narcs always tell on themselves.

I read through Driscolls short article on Esther. Wow! What lens is he looking through to presuppose so many outlandish ideas into that story?! Does he have a need to set every female character in Scripture into their proper place in his little world?

Dee –

I agree. I fear, for some, that they have used the word “Gospel” to sell many goods. They have profited financially as well as selling “ideas” with the word. They suggest with this use of the word that whatever “idea” is proposed after the word “Gospel” is good and should not be rejected. If the “idea” is rejected, then the Gospel has been rejected. What a guilt trip can be put on people with this use of the word. It can cause some to walk away from the Truth.

This is unbelievable to me.

“A simple, yes, you are right. I should not have made fun of Queen Latifa” would have done the trick.

Or even just ignoring it.

I actually think that Mohler’s tweet is funny. He and Mahaney looked like a couple of square, buttoned down guys. The waitress saw that and poked fun at them.

Michael Card is a nice person, as well as a good song writer.

Driscoll just keeps digging!

Eagle … I don’t have your contact info either. I will email Dee and ask her to put us in touch.

Dee:

Please be sure to keep all documentation with Twitter and screenshots.

There is an ongoing battle to shut down those who expose. This is not about conspiracy theories. My pastor tried to shut me down via the $500K lawsuit. YouTube shut down Kevin Oliver’s YouTube channel – he exposes church abuse. (Tom Rich exposed Kevin’s story: http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2012/06/christian-video-blogger-files-suit.html) And a couple months ago, Tom Rich’s site and mine were flagged by Norton Anti-Virus software and those who had that software running were unable to access our sites.

We cannot forget that this is a bigger battle. It’s not just about Dee and Jared. It’s much bigger.

It’s one thing to state your position, quite another when people, especially clergy, work to silence dissent, a tactic which seems to becoming a big part of the conservative religious arsenal in some quarters. Here’s a new example from a ‘minister’ who also happens to be a Maryland state legislator:

“Burns, who is also the pastor and founder of the Rising Sun First Baptist Church in Woodlawn, has been under fire for a letter he wrote last month urging Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti to “take the necessary action” and order Ayanbadejo to “cease and desist” his advocacy of gay rights.”

More details can be found here, among others:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-09-09/news/bs-md-burns-backlash-20120909_1_burns-backs-ravens-linebacker-brendon-ayanbadejo-support-of-gay-marriage

Oh my, Driscoll makes me so thankful for Cowboy Church like we had last Sunday.

At least the manure came out of the horse, not the pastor.

And it was pretty easy to shovel.

To be fair, I haven’t listened to Mark Driscoll’s sermon on Esther, so I am hoping that you have all quoted from it fairly and accurately.

If this is the case, then his exegesis astonishes me… where does he get the idea that she grew up in a lukewarm religious environment? And as for sinful behaviour, where does he get that idea as well? Whatever you think of the king (and he comes across as a bit arbitrary, capricious and none too bright where Haman is concerned), in those days Persian kings (and others) did have harems. But to be a member of a harem was still to be a wife. As C S Lewis once wrote, men might have argued about whether you could have one wife or several, but they still agreed that adultery was wrong.

As for Artaxerxes being a pagan king, this is true, but we do not know whether he allowed his wives the freedom to practise their own religion. I wouldn’t defend paganism, but Zororostrianism is somewhat different to the fertility cults of Canaan, and the Persians were more tolerant. Hmm… admittedly whether under OT law she should have married him is a good question, yet the fact appears to be that Esther was placed in the position of queen to save her people from genocide.

Jeff seems to me to be correct – the Gospels say that Mary Magdalene had devils cast out of her, but does not otherwise talk about her past life before she met Jesus.

If this is the case, then his exegesis astonishes me… where does he get the idea that she grew up in a lukewarm religious environment? And as for sinful behaviour, where does he get that idea as well? — Kolya

Continuing on my previous comment re “Mary Magdalene being a prostitute”, it was very common for Medieval theologians to spin elaborate and detailed theological speculations from one-shot mentions of something in the Bible. (Take a look at Medieval Angelology for an example.)

Victorian scholars had a similar reputation re secular history (especially Medieval), where “reconstruction” and speculation was an accepted method for filling in the gaps.

And Bee Jay Driscoll is just following this tradition reading so much into Esther’s background and behavior, “speculatively reconstructing” her past. However, as Entropy sets in “speculative reconstruction” slips all too easily past “fake but accurate” into just “false”.

From The Jewish Encyclopedia: The Apocryphal Book of Esther.

Scroll down past all of the initial citations and there are detailed synopses of the apocryphal stories.

There’s more at this site, and it’s written in a very straightforward, non-scholarly manner. (Site: Jewish Women: A Comprehensive Historical Encyclopedia.)

Chabad.org has Esther (under Megillah) with commentary in its section on Purim. It is fascinating and completely unlike MD’s article. For HUG, there’s always the VeggieTales version.

Okay – bear with me here as an English Woman…what is the O-line?

Also, I’ve been over to Rachel Held Evan’s site to read what she wrote…her site has had a upgrade & I can’t find any of the comments on any of the posts – has my server misloaded it?, or am I just a dumb chick who should admit that Driscoll & the Bayley Brothers have us girls bang to rights…

Houston, we have a problem.

Yeah, this isn’t new news (and this is OT), but here’s the latest.

Guess who’s now advising men to ditch Christianity for Islam so they can beat their wives into submission? Pat Robertson!!!

I wish I was exaggerating on both counts but with lines like “Well, you could become a Muslim and you could beat her,” and, “You can’t divorce her, according to Scripture, so I say, move to Saudi Arabia,” it’s really hard to say I am.

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/09/10/gospel-hardball/

I got this from Jeff Crippen’s site.

http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2012/09/10/pat-robertson-prescribes-wife-beating-really/

Oh thank goodness it is a DISQUS problem…no kowtowing to my patriarchal overlords, I wasn’t sure how I’d do that.

As for Driscoll – a man who tries to speak into a sex-obsessed culture in a sex-obsessed way; who tries to reach out to alientated groups of men in a way that alienates other groups of men…does he really not have anyone in his life that checks the veracity of what he says, whether it’s even true to the passages in question? Does no-one read his sermon notes beforehand? Or does he just have to say enough gospel buzzwords, a couple of flashes of pornovision & then everyone turns a blind eye? He is, unfortunately, almost indisputably going to crash & burn in some high-profile (probably sexual) manner that he can then gospel repent from & write a gospel book about saying how it has gospelly glorified God.

“He is, unfortunately, almost indisputably going to crash & burn in some high-profile (probably sexual) manner that he can then gospel repent from & write a gospel book about saying how it has gospelly glorified God.”

Beakerj, that line made me almost choke on my water. Brilliant! 😀

The O-line or offensive line in American football consists of five men, usually six feet tall and 280-350 pounds apiece. On passing plays, to stay between the D(efensive) Linemen (usually 4) and the quarterback (usually not a terribly big guy) and keep him from being smashed to the ground or worse. On running plays, to create a path by pushing the D-linemen away from the target “hole” for the running back to get through.

To say that a woman should be considered for the O-line is to suggest that she is overweight and very big. Generally considered an insult of magnitude that it may result in a man being kneed or kicked in his manhood, or worse.

Somebody I know who used to live in Seattle told me that she didn’t consider Mark Driscoll’s church a place to get sound biblical teaching. I can certainly understand why after reading his views on Esther. I’m shaking my head in disbelief.

“Aaargh, is it a form of gospel tourettes?”

Beakerj, you owe me a new computer keyboard. I spit out my ice tea.

@ Sallie & Dee,

You ain’t old music-wise unless you can remember the hullabaloo Dylan caused when he plugged in a Stratocaster at the Newport folk festival.
===> (smiley face goes here)

I wish I could say I’m surprised your Twittwr account got locked, but…I’m not. I still remember how shocked I was to read a story in the Boston Phoenix in 2001 (so YES before the spring of 2002 when the story exploded). The story was about the hardball litigation tactics used by lawyers for the Catholic Church, tactics I’d thought were previously restricted to the legal vultures of the Church of $cientology.

Without going into excessive detail, I’ll just note I’m simply not surprised any more. But it was surely a grim realization (and it wasn’t strictly about lawyers defending Catholic dioceses either) to determine Christian leadership could be just as sordid, venal and, yes, stupid in their dealings with both members and outsiders. I guess I expected Christian leaders to act better than the leader of a space-alien cult. I was wrong.

I don’t see “Christian” leaders acting Christian, but in every way just like “the world.” In fact, I now see worse behavior than “the world.” For example, the evil, wicked and rotten world recognizes that bullying can be extremely damaging to children, but “Christian” leaders are against having programs against bullying in the public schools, because it would interfere with their favorite pastime of “Bash the Homo.” I was bullied in school (not because of sexuality but because it was perceived I was weak) and frankly, Christians ought to be appalled. But they’re not. They’re proud.

The only consolation I can offer you, Deb and Dee, is that you’ve not had flyers proclaiming you to be a religious bigot plastered around your neighborhood, or you’ve not had people picket your home or even had your name and pictures end up on an enemies website. I hesitated before mentioning these things, because I really don’t want to give people ideas. Then again, if they’ll stoop so low as to emulate a space-alien cult, thre’s nothing which will embarrass good sense into them.

Beakerj, you are gospel forgiven.

Arce 03:35~

“The O-line or offensive line in American football consists of five men, usually six feet tall and 280-350 pounds apiece. On passing plays, to stay between the D(efensive) Linemen (usually 4) and the quarterback (usually not a terribly big guy) and keep him from being smashed to the ground or worse. On running plays, to create a path by pushing the D-linemen away from the target “hole” for the running back to get through.

To say that a woman should be considered for the O-line is to suggest that she is overweight and very big. Generally considered an insult of magnitude that it may result in a man being kneed or kicked in his manhood, or worse.”

Yes–my football coach husband got it right away and shook his head at the insensitivity.

Thanks for the sanity in your comment. To say it was a tweet declaring that a woman could do the job as well as a man is a half truth. It is a statement about one’s size. At any rate, an unkind tweet, not unlike his latest.

And Saudi Arabia no less!!!!!!!

Anon, My personal opinion of him is that he is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He leads people astray by his false and twisted doctrine. That is why things like this come out of his mouth. He is actually doing people a favor by continualy exposing himself for what he truly is.

Dee and Stormy,

I actually don’t know much about him. I know his name and that he is always getting himself in trouble one way or another. This is the first thing I think I’ve ever actually heard come directly from him and now I have a very bad headache.

Maybe that would go away if I stopped hitting the wall with it.

I wonder, does he use words like stuttin’ with his congregation? In bible studies? In sermons? Or is he a different person on Sundays?

I am gospel angry that Jared abused the gospel football reference to insult the gospel lady who had just gospel sang the gospel National gospel Anthem before the gospel football gospel game.

Mark is a pretender. He’s another wolf.

I have a thought. I may start a new feature of TWW called Jared’s Corner. In this particular area, we will teach Jared and ourselves all the new slang relevant to the situation.

The Jared Word of the Day is “SOZ” meaning “sorry.” Example,”See how much easier it is to say you are “soz” when no one understands what the heck you are saying???”

Eagle – you put into words what I feel Mark Driscoll really thinks about women. The man is very sick.

@ Kolya:

“Hmm… admittedly whether under OT law she should have married him is a good question, yet the fact appears to be that Esther was placed in the position of queen to save her people from genocide.”

Good point, but Esther was essentially forced to marry him. And yes, God certainly did make the best of the horrible position she was put in. As someone else has pointed out, the Bible doesn’t tell us what she thought about it. I used to get annoyed at modern “romanticizations” of Esther that make it out to be a love story between her and Xerxes, but now Mark Driscoll has taken the cake. He’s read just as much (if not more) into the book than the romantic versions.

Leila…your name is Leila…sorry I was so carried away with the sheer gospeliciousness of what I was saying I forgot to pay attention to you, the human being.

I mean isn’t the video amazing, not the moderation. Heh. 🙂

By the way~

Stuttin’ — gospel definition —

“Not worried or bothered by another person, their actions, or their property.” (Urban dictionary definition number 1)

It means one is not worried and/or not bothered by someone. So if you say- I ain’t stuttin’, aren’t you actually saying, I ain’t (not worried or bothered) by internet nitpickers? And, if you are NOT “not worried or bothered”, then it means you really are worried or bothered. Now I am worried I don’t understand gospel-driven slang.

Ephesians 5:4
English Standard Version (ESV)

“4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving”

Pastors could/should read this before tweeting-we all should:
http://5ptsalt.com/2009/12/11/coarse-jesting/

I am left wondering about the lack of depth I see: lack of depth of insight into how words about one’s physical appearance can hurt; lack of depth of maturity regarding treating others as one would want to be treated; lack of depth of understanding about how an elder must be temperate-sober minded; lack of depth of perception about how elders are supposed to be a positive example of behavior for us to imitate and honor.

“He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.” Titus 1:7-8

“…temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable,” 1Tim 3:2

“Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.” Phil 2:3

What will a book about “Gospel Deeps” have to teach me? I think perhaps wading in some gospel shallows would be helpful first.

“I am left wondering about the lack of depth I see: lack of depth of insight into how words about one’s physical appearance can hurt; lack of depth of maturity regarding treating others as one would want to be treated; lack of depth of understanding about how an elder must be temperate-sober minded; lack of depth of perception about how elders are supposed to be a positive example of behavior for us to imitate and honor.”

Diane, You have just described the problem with the majority of the YRR/NC movement.

I have come to believe the only thing that will really change them is when the money dries up as people refuse to pay them to insult people and be arrogant. Let us hope folks are not so desensitized that it does not happen and they end up just creating more and more coarse shallow followers.

John,

Your description was spot on! The systems are all controlled by the personalities, as far as I can see. Mess with one of their personalities and all hell breaks loose! Or it doesn’t and the system protects the personality, like has happened with CJ Maheney. All the fearless leaders who have NOT spoken up about his wrongdoings, but are happy to smear the back benchers, because they don’t have much of a voice, has been illuminating to see.

I have seen it up close and personally when a fellow in the group speaks up and says that things are not right. Suddenly he is argumentative and divisive. He is not “standing with” the team, he is rocking the pastoral “support group”. And when he does not bow before the system, he is pushed out of it. Or, the other guys are supposed to push him out for the head guy. It is sordid! But seeing the authoritarian and abusive systems for what they are is worth the pain of the process.

“What you have experienced is pretty typical of authoritarian personalities and systems. They do well when among their own group where their rules are obeyed and everyone is acceptable because they conform. Get them outside of that small world, though in a venue where there are real questions and criticisms, and they become defensive and often nasty. The impetus is to protect the authoritarian system, even to the extent that it overrules the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. In reality, the neighborhood is pretty shrunken and carefully defined. If you are outside it, you are fair game. Seen this in action with some family members who have gotten heavily involved in such a system. The contrast between how they treat those who are “in” and those who are “out” is like night and day.”

I’d just like to note for the anonymous person here that there is no effort to bring “Sharia law” into the USA. It would have to get through our legislatures first, and that’s not happening. (It would take a three-year law school education to understand why Sharia law wouldn’t make it here in the USA.)

What you may see happening are Muslims asserting they have the same rights as Christians. You may not like that, but in a country where the government cannot, as a matter of the Constitution, privilege one religion over another, this is going to happen.

If you have an actual, real, live example of where Sharia law is in place, please give me a link to a judicial ruling, a legal statute or (last) a news article. What I imagine has happened is that someone is unhappy because Christians aren’t being treated like special snowflakes under the law. That, however is NOT bringing “Sharia law” into government.

I could go on and point out that one of the two political parties wants to enact right-wing Christian religious beliefs into law, but I want to keep the conversation civil. So I will just zip my lip and wait for those examples of “Sharia law.”

Eagle, I just had a conversation online with a couple of very liberal guy friends and they both told me bluntly they believe there are some right-wing men who simply hate and loathe women. One of them said, “They want women dead.” And then I read what you said about Driscoll. Ugh. I’m now feeling really sick to my stomach.

Two Christians may enter into a contract with one of the terms being that they agree to resolve disputes before a panel of pastors applying Biblical concepts. That is a contract enforceable in court and the court would order the parties to select and have their case resolved in that manner.

Two Muslims may enter into a contract with one of the terms of the contract being that they agree that any dispute between them may be resolved by sharia. In this case, it means a panel of Muslim men who apply Islamic concepts of justice and fairness. A court would generally say that if that is the agreed upon means of resolving their business dispute, they must so resolve their dispute.

Neither is a case of a court imposing religious law on a party, but a court enforcing an agreement freely entered into by the parties as to the process for resolving their dispute. But the court would, of necessity, refer to either Biblical or Sharia law in writing its order in the appropriate case.

I once tried to start a blog keeping track of how comps/patris bash female Bible characters. Bathsheba and Abigail are on their list of women who have sinned. Now Driscoll has added Esther to that list.

Btw, the working title for that blog was “Why This attack?” Because these men need to be asked why they have such a sinful drive to attack women and hold women responsible for sins that the Bible never mentions.

@ An Attorney:

“Two Muslims may enter into a contract with one of the terms of the contract being that they agree that any dispute between them may be resolved by sharia. In this case, it means a panel of Muslim men who apply Islamic concepts of justice and fairness. A court would generally say that if that is the agreed upon means of resolving their business dispute, they must so resolve their dispute.”

I assume this would only apply in situations that fell short of actual crime, as HUG mentioned (civil cases vs. criminal)?

Hester, he took that in the most literalistic way possible. His explanation was something on the order of “She did not cross the line [into sexual activity/immorality] but she danced on it vigorously.” That’s the closest I can recall to the wording he used.

Driscoll’s taught from Ruth twice, once in 2005 when he kicked off a singles ministry and then he recycled a lot of material in 2007.

twice, in fact.

Dee,

Please have a little more respect for my mother. She would never let me live in her basement. She rented out somebody else’s basement for me to live in. Now that we have that settled, have a nice day.

Steve, a blogger.

Well … the first and last sermons in Ruth were actually decent. You’d want to skip all the junk in the middle full of “Who’s your daddy?” jokes.

Enforcement of contract is a civil matter, not a criminal matter, except in the possible case of an abusive contract taking illegal advantage of a consumer. In that case, the government intervenes in the form of the U.S. Attorney or District Attorney (State’s Attorney) and there is a criminal prosecution under U.S. or State law. BTW Islamic law is very tough on interest rates, basically barring the collection of interest, so it is unlikely that a contract between two Muslims would be abusive.

Generally, that is the most common abusive consumer contract, providing for an escalating interest rate that is considered usurious under law.

I agree with Anonymous. The Al Mohler tweet is amusing (if inappropriate), because it made him look ridiculous. Obviously, the server was being facetious and making fun of him and Mahaney. I agree that he shouldn’t have tweeted it. Guess he just couldn’t help himself.

“the only things living in my basement area are things that are handled by my quarterly pest exterminator.”

Can they do anything about the infestation at Mars Hill?

Hester, he took that in the most literalistic way possible. His explanation was something on the order of “She did not cross the line [into sexual activity/immorality] but she danced on it vigorously.” That’s the closest I can recall to the wording he used. — WTH

i.e. “Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores…”

(Note: That originated as the punch line of a short & nasty comic strip about big-name comics artist Frank Miller — the guy who wrote the original 300 and Sin City. He has the rep of having an obsession about the subject.)

Wendy

They are all Mark Driscoll wannabes. They were so excited and couldn’t wait to tell us about the exotic dancers quip. Next, they will be trying to channel his pornovisions. — Dee

Not hard to do. Just punch in the proper search string and watch what comes up. Over and over and over.

@Bridget

The problem with nondenominational churches like Mars Hill is that they are accountable to no one for their doctrines – they are established and run by a charismatic ‘minister’ who is the sole reason that congregants attend that church. Because of that, the ‘minister’ exercises complete authoritarian control over the church and, to the extent there is an governing board, they are made of up lackeys. Disagreement with the leader is not tolerated.

“Or, is it just his teaching and writing about women that is skewed?”

I’ve heard some other nutty things from him as well, not just about women. I’m troubled by the fact that he claims to have clairvoyant “seeing” powers that let him view past events, when most descriptions of Biblical prophecy involve foreknowledge of future events, and the events usually involve more than one person’s personal life. Also he calls this the gift of discernment, if I’m not mistaken, and I really don’t think that word should be applied to that ability.

I heard some kind of instructional manual for exorcisms from him, in which he laid out all these “rules” that you have to have for an exorcism or else the demon will bring all its friends into your office. These rules include certain things that you have to say to the demon. He also states that you have to talk to the head demon, the one who’s in charge. (Or what? the Exorcism won’t work? Jesus’ name won’t work if you’re accidentally talking to the wrong demon?) And he says that demons will often quickly reverse their order of command when you get down to the exorcism so that you aren’t talking to the one in charge anymore.

There was also a troubling question in my mind over whether he was saying that believers could be possessed. I can’t remember his exact wording now, but something made me think that he was alleging that Christ-followers could become demon-possessed and need an exorcism. It was really very upsetting.

I can’t say for sure what’s in Mark Driscoll’s heart, but I can say for sure that I question a LOT of what comes from his mouth, and it’s not just about women.

@ Sad Observer:

“I heard some kind of instructional manual for exorcisms from him, in which he laid out all these “rules” that you have to have for an exorcism or else the demon will bring all its friends into your office. These rules include certain things that you have to say to the demon. He also states that you have to talk to the head demon, the one who’s in charge. (Or what? the Exorcism won’t work? Jesus’ name won’t work if you’re accidentally talking to the wrong demon?) And he says that demons will often quickly reverse their order of command when you get down to the exorcism so that you aren’t talking to the one in charge anymore.

There was also a troubling question in my mind over whether he was saying that believers could be possessed. I can’t remember his exact wording now, but something made me think that he was alleging that Christ-followers could become demon-possessed and need an exorcism. It was really very upsetting.”

I’ll admit I’ve studied literally nothing about exorcisms, demonology, etc. because it creeps me out. But where are all these detailed exorcism rules in the Bible? How do we know that demons have a hierarchy anyway? All we really know is that Satan is the leader of the demons. All right, maybe you can argue that angels have a hierarchy therefore demons must too, but even the angelic hierarchy, as I understand it, is more derived from Catholic tradition than Scripture (something Driscoll would deplore in every other area). It seems pretty hard to derive such a detailed structure from only two or three named angels in the Bible and no named demons.

As for believers being possessed – they can’t be, of course. But hey, if Paul Dohse is right and Neo-Calvinists really do deny the new birth, maybe they think believers CAN be possessed, since nothing actually changed when they got saved.

Regarding the tweeting drama, may we all think twice about doing things we would be ashamed of were they “exposed”. They are visible to GOD, even if we succeed in hiding them from everyone else… The greek word “hypocrisy” means “mask”.

Victorious,

I would venture to guess that such insecurity about one’s own value and voice is common among females who have been sexually abused…
which makes Esther’s heroism to defy her king/husband remarkable and inspiring. 🙂 May Grace see the Truth!

When I was on my own “coming out of the fog” journey questioning comp doctrines, I did a bible search for “husband” “ruler” and “household” and this is what I found. Clearly not an example of “God’s Will and Plan for a satisfying, God-honoring, biblical, Christian marriage”!!!

Bridget,

It’s been years since I’ve been there. I’m not sure how many people raised questions about Driscoll on many things. My understanding from people who have left in the last few years is that basically regardless of formalities if Driscoll says “jump” everyone else says “how high?” even if formally the people involved are “lead pastor” or fellow executive elders. This would seem to be as true of the new people as it was for various mini-Marks who have ascended the leadership ranks in the last fourteen years. It seems as though guys who have their own personalities don’t go the distance in the organization or don’t rise up the ladder very far.

Driscoll has taught that while Christians can’t be owned by Satan they can sin in ways that let them be demonized. That may understandably seem like a distinction without a difference.

Driscoll has claimed to get a lot from William Gurnall’s The Christian in Full Armour but the descriptions of how he approaches spiritual warfare sound more like Neil T. Anderson to me from what I can remember of his approach.

At 19:28 of Part 6, we learn that Ruth was ‘probably sexually active’ before she met Boaz.

He’s seems to be implying she was sinfully sexually active. So this must be prior to her marriage. Not sure where he gets it from.

Off-topic alert, but I need this question answered. HUG and anyone else who participated in the Christian animism/Christian occultism/NAR discussion a few days ago, this one is for you.

I just found out that someone I know practices “intercessory dance.” She’s gone to lots of weird charismatic churches (the kind with the “worship flags”). When I googled “intercessory dance,” the Elijah List website came up. I don’t know what the Elijah List is, but I remember it was mentioned in the comments here last week. Anybody know anything about intercessory dance and what the Elijah List is? And is the NAR involved (I’m betting yes)?

And HUG – given your comments about Christian animism and setting wards outside of D.C., I thought you’d enjoy the following. It’s a group of kids performing an “intercessory rain dance” at “Signs & Wonders Camp.” Yep. A rain dance. At a Christian camp. Don’t you dare call them pagan, though. ; )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fiag0zfw1Gs

Dee

“I wonder, could it be a termite problem? Something that affects the very foundation?”

Or a snail problem? Something that leaves a slimey trail?

Hester – now, the “rain dance” bit is new to me, but def.*not* the rest.

Does this person have their own personal “prayer flags”” as well? Or Native American-style “prayer fans”?

Dee – welcome to the wacky world of charismania run amok. (i.e., the NAR/Third Wave set.) I could tell some stories that might curl Baptists’ hair, being that they’re cessationists and all.

*

Ruth – MD is just making sh*t up, I think. Seriously.

Hester – people being married and having children with an opposite-sex spouse *does not necessarily* mean that said people are straight. I know quite a few LGBTQ people who were in those kinds of marriages.

Now, I’m also NOT meaning to comment on Ruth and Naomi, or David and Jonathan, re. the above, since textual interpretation vis-a-vis contemporary views of human sexuality doesn’t work too well, imo. (And it all seems to come down to a “gay/straight” dichotomy in much of the gay community as well as in anti-gay circles – too simplistic, I think!)

Sergius – PA, yes; Philly – nope.

And which of the many Pennsylvania Wegman’s stores do you shop at?

BTW, my parents still live in the Philly area (West Chester) and Wegman’s is my mother’s religion.

An attorney,

OK. I did some research. I see there are quite a lot of people who insist there is no Sharia law coming to America, and quite a lot who insist that there is. When I said they want to bring Sharia law here I wasn’t thinking of our courts per se because Sharia is their whole culture and not limited to the judicial system, but I found a number of sources which do address Sharia’s appearance in the legal system here.

Here is a site of court cases listed as “relevant” or “highly relevant” on the issue of Sharia in the courts.

http://shariahinamericancourts.com/

This one is from an atheist who took a Muslim to court for assault, found himself in the courtroom of a Muslim judge, and had some very interesting things to say about that. He gives the audio of the trial. The judge dismissed the case saying what happened did not fulfill the requirements to be judged assault. I’m not sure if the judge’s reasons for dismissing the case were lawful or not, but he, as well as the defendant’s attorney, sited the man’s foreign origin and Muslim background as grounds for why he should be excused for his actions. The judge made sure to point out that in Muslim countries the plaintiff would have been killed for what he did. That sounded to me like the judge was implying he got off lucky as he was only assaulted in the manner he was and nothing worse was done to him. The judge said the plaintiff went way beyond his free speech rights (I agree what the plaintiff did was tasteless). It seems at least slanted to excuse the Muslim for doing something I’m pretty sure no one else could get away with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Sv9IyrpOnbs#!

As for Sharia only being in civil court, the following case does not make me feel better about that. This one is a Muslim woman who tried to get a restraining order against her Muslim husband who repeatedly raped and beat her. It was denied because he was only following his beliefs. That decision was overturned in appellate court, thankfully, but this is highly disturbing.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/sharia-in-new-jersey-muslim-husband-rapes-wife-judge-sees-no-sexual-assault-because-husbands-religio.html

It’s further elaborated on here:

http://tinyurl.com/22tbdpw

More along the lines of what I was thinking originally, here are some videos with Muslim clerics talking about their desires for Sharia. In the first one says the Muslims want to “govern themselves” under Sharia, so there would then be 2 law systems, which I would think would mean they want to be in America as Americans, but not governed by American law:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTb2L-LwRWA&feature=related

But this one has a cleric who says Sharia is for everyone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJCCQ3bsZLc

Finally, here’s one with the Mayor of Dearborn, Michigan saying there is no Sharia in Dearborn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWk4Ce7iyIE&feature=related

But apparently, as the video poster says, “For whatever reason, some Muslims [in Dearborn] didn’t get the memo” as this Muslim tells us that “Sharia is coming, baby!”. :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4ybdjOGGlys#!

Mark does realize that Xerses was a PAGAN,right?

A few people have mentioned Driscoll having a hissy fit when his wife cut her hair? Does Driscoll subscribe to there being dress codes of what is acceptable for men and women?

@ Pam:

I think it was more about the fact that he likes long hair, and Grace should have “known better” than to be so “selfish” and take away the thing he liked.

Also: I think Wade should do a series of responses to Driscoll’s upcoming Esther series.

Anon 1-

And the Israelites were a captive people in bondage to this Pagan ruler! And they didn’t have much choice in anything!

I once listened to all 4 of Driscoll’s teachings to his pastoral staff on dealing with demons. Spooky stuff.

I’ve heard some other nutty things from him as well, not just about women. I’m troubled by the fact that he claims to have clairvoyant “seeing” powers that let him view past events, when most descriptions of Biblical prophecy involve foreknowledge of future events, and the events usually involve more than one person’s personal life. — Sad Observer

Deb & Dee call it “Pornovision”, because all these “seeing” powers (or should we call it “Scrying”?) of past or present events all have a Juicy or Kinky sexual content.

My personal opinion is that these “visions” are an acceptable “Godly” way for him to air his sexual fantasies and obsessions.

I heard some kind of instructional manual for exorcisms from him, in which he laid out all these “rules” that you have to have for an exorcism or else the demon will bring all its friends into your office. These rules include certain things that you have to say to the demon. He also states that you have to talk to the head demon, the one who’s in charge. (Or what? the Exorcism won’t work? Jesus’ name won’t work if you’re accidentally talking to the wrong demon?) And he says that demons will often quickly reverse their order of command when you get down to the exorcism so that you aren’t talking to the one in charge anymore. — Sad Observer

This sounds a lot like Magick to me — specifically, “Karcism” or classic Black Magic, which is centered around summoning, addressing, and binding demons or spirits. I think a lot of “spiritual warrior” and “discernment” types are practicing what the blogger at the now-defunct “Onward, Forward, Toward” site called “Charismatic Witchcraft.”

The basic difference between religion and magic is that with magic, the mortal sorcerer is the one in control of the spiritual beings and/or forces.

I just found out that someone I know practices “intercessory dance.” She’s gone to lots of weird charismatic churches (the kind with the “worship flags”). When I googled “intercessory dance,” the Elijah List website came up. I don’t know what the Elijah List is, but I remember it was mentioned in the comments here last week. Anybody know anything about intercessory dance and what the Elijah List is? — Hester

I have heard of Liturgical Dance, but “Intercessory Dance” is a new one on me. As for the Elijah List, I first heard about it from “Onward, Forward, Toward”. From the way he described it, it is some sort of association of real flake Charismatics and Spiritual Warfare types, always claiming visions and prophecies and demon-fighting, you name it. I think they were the origin of the terms “Charismania” and “Charismatic Witchcraft”.

And HUG – given your comments about Christian animism and setting wards outside of D.C., I thought you’d enjoy the following. It’s a group of kids performing an “intercessory rain dance” at “Signs & Wonders Camp.” Yep. A rain dance. At a Christian camp. — Hester

All I have to say about that one is this link.

Mark does realize that Xerses was a PAGAN,right? — Anon1

I think that he things Artaxexes was a DUDE. — Numo

Somebody better screen the movie 300 for him, pointing out a certain Xerxes — Padishah, Shahanshah, Shah of Iran and not-Iran.

A few people have mentioned Driscoll having a hissy fit when his wife cut her hair? Does Driscoll subscribe to there being dress codes of what is acceptable for men and women? — Pam

Probably. Sounds like something a control freak would like.

I realized yesterday that when I was told the Esther story in Sunday School, I somehow got the idea that Mordecai told her to go to the palace with the other girls – which would be a pretty weird thing for him to do if he was bringing her up to be his wife (as some Rabbinic tradition holds). There is a vs. where it says she obeyed Mordecai even after she became queen (2:20), so if he did tell her to go, she probably would have. Any thoughts on this? Is this even an accepted interpretation or just the mistake of a 9-year-old mind?

Reread the whole book yesterday and still can’t find anything that would indicate Mordecai and Esther were “lukewarm” or only nominally Jewish. This seems to be Driscoll’s unique idea. Also, Mordecai refuses to bow to Haman in ch. 3, which could very well be because of his religion. I can’t see any other reason he would do that, as there’s nothing to indicate he had previous personal issues with Haman. One would think a “lukewarm” Jew wouldn’t care.

Also, apparently Esther and Mordecai are considered prophets in Judaism. The feast of Purim was first celebrated during the time of the second temple (~2000 yrs ago), so I suppose it’s entirely possible that Jesus celebrated Purim.

Interesting tidbits from Matthew Henry indicate that maybe there has always been a minority of Christians who thought Esther sinned (though I doubt any of them painted her quite as dismally as Driscoll). Henry summarily demolishes them:

“It is certain, as bishop Patrick says, that those who suggest she committed a great sin to come at this dignity [marrying the king] do not consider the custom of those times and countries. Everyone that the king took to his bed was married to him, and was his wife of a lower rank, as Hagar was Abraham’s; so that, if Esther had not been made queen, the sons of Jacob need not say that he dealt with their sister as a harlot.”

It was actually benevolent of Xerxes to keep the girls who didn’t “make the cut” around as concubines – having lost their virginity, they were no longer “marriage material” and would have been a burden to their families if he had let them go, since they had no means to provide for themselves, whereas at the palace they were assured a decent life.

Oops. Thanks for the correction, Deb. I don’t twitter or tweet, so it’s a little confusing. 🙂

So it was Russell Moore who made himself look ridiculous. The tweet is amusing because the server was making fun of them. Does he like being made fun of, or did he take that as a serious compliment?

Dee, the Twitter thing with Jared Wilson… sorry you had to go through that nonsense. What he did was pure retaliation. Not only would he not apologize or back down, but he went after you for challenging his “authority” and his attempt at sounding like a cool dude (which, IMO, was racist and misogynistic). Epic fail.

Hester, I also got the same notion from somewhere about Esther when I was a kid. I did an in depth Bible Study on it a few years back, can’t remember if it was Beth Moore or Kay Arthur, or ? Which changed that view for me. But before I posted on FB about it yesterday I reread it again and I see what you see, too.

@ Hester & Patti,

It’s amazing what one can come up with while approaching Scripture. It’s called presupposition. The trick is to get your followers to bring ONLY WHAT YOU PRESUPPOSE to the game, never this, not that, and certainly not the other. Who cares whether or not Esther was sexually pure? How does that impact the narrative other than an incidental bit (imposed on the narrative) that has no bearing on what Esther did in saving her people from genocide?

Muff Potter – you made me laugh 🙂 🙂 🙂

Wilson has posted his response, “What do the Pharisees do?”
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/

I’m tempted to comment on Wilson’s post that sometimes we do need correction – even Peter was rebuked when he stopped eating with gentiles.

Dave AA said: “Wilson has posted his response, “What do the Pharisees do?””

And yet, Wilson sure does talk a good game. From his post a couple of days ago:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/2012/09/11/stay-messy-my-friends/?comments#comments

“you do not want a stable of yes-men. Open yourself to hard questions, challenges, conflicts in opinions, loving rebukes, and constructive criticism. People who only tell you what you want to hear are not your friends and are doing you harm. And if you intentionally surround yourself with people who are afraid to tell you the truth because of your self-defensiveness or your verbal or occupational retaliation, you’re not a friend to them, but a self-righteous guy afraid of the repentance that leads to growth in Christ. Cultivate a climate of transparency and honesty in your friendships and ministry circles, and you will see the gospel spread more dominantly within them.”

Will the real Jared Wilson please stand up?

should be “dominant”

“Cultivate a climate of transparency and honesty in your friendships and ministry circles, and you will see the Gospel spread more dominately in them.”

An alternative sentence might be:

“Cultivate a climate of transparency and honesty in your friendships and ministry circles, and you can help each other avoid falling into serious error (like an affair with a sixteen-year-old girl).” Which is probably what he means. Sometimes jargon obfuscates.

@ dee

So be it. I’ve left a comment, although whether it sees the light of day remains to be seen. This is what I wrote:

And sometimes rebuke is needed – even Paul rebuked Peter. If people raise concerns, we do need to listen and look and see if they are legitimate concerns. We need to examine ourselves as much as we examine others. Even ‘pharisees’ might be right some of the time!

Hmmm, I commented, but didn’t use the ‘g’ word…I may not get a hearing 🙂

Pam and Beakerj’s comments have been published and agreed to!
My own comment was not– likely because I specifially accused some of his tweets tweets of not advancing the gospel, and being nonchalant.