Gospel Hardball

You and me we use so very many clumsy words.
The noise of what we often say is not worth being heard.
When the Father's wisdom wanted to communicate His love,
He spoke it in one final perfect Word. -Michael Card link


Queen Latifah at Barack Obama's inauguration-Wikicommons

#wartwatch tweet today

Jailed Iranian Pastor Nadarkhani, sentenced,in 2010, to death for apostasy and refusing to recant Xianity, is released.

I will explain why this is important later in the post.

Why do we blog and tweet? 

I have developed a simple classification system for Christian blogs.

Type 1: For some, it is merely a means of pontification. They want to tell the world what they think and they don’t care what the readers think of their one-way sermon. Such blogs have a “no comments allowed” policy. Some may say that you can email them with your thoughts but dialog is not a priority. They were born to preach and you were born to listen and learn. Do not expect any sort of consideration for your feelings or any return of your emails.

Type 2: These are the bloggers who allow comments so long as they agree with, or praise, the blogger. They often do not allow those outside of the faith to comment and actively prevent non-like minded people from commenting. Do not expect for them to dialog with you about anything unless it is to humbly agree that such a blogger is a notch above everyone else.

There are many people who come to our blog and tell of their comments being deleted at other blogs because they stand in opposition to the writer. TWW now has a policy that we will happily post any comment deleted or not allowed by another blog, especially Christian blogs.

In my opinion, the Type 2 blog is no different in character than a “no comments” blog. However, it reveals a bit about the blogger. He/she is thin-skinned and is unable, or unwilling, to stand up to scrutiny. I might venture to guess that a significant number of both Type 1 and 2 bloggers are also authoritarian in the nature.

Caveat: Occasionally, wonderful bloggers go to a no comment policy when verbally threatened. For a short time, this was the case for Wade Burleson when a commenter made some worrisome comments about his family. (Sick, just plain sick).

Type 3: This sort of blog exists to throw some thoughts out into the marketplace of ideas. This blogger is willing to hear what the world has to say about the ideas expressed. Most importantly, it allows for disagreement. However, it does not consider itself a supportive community beyond some “atta boys.”

Type 4: This blog takes Type 3 to a higher level. Not only are the commenters encouraged to pushback and dialog with one another, sometimes the commenters actually write posts for the blog. This sort of blog seeks to develop a community of caring within its diverse membership. The response of the people on this blog and the Internet Monk to the recent illness of Eagle is an example that community is possible on the blogosphere. 

This exists to prove the fallacy perpetrated by some Christian leaders that bloggers who critique them are house-robe clad , unemployed zeroes who live in their mother’s basements, eating Cheetos and causing trouble.

When we started this blog, we already had discussed with one another, ad nauseam, our hunches and thoughts. Both of us were far more curious to see how others might interpret the issues that we found controversial or strange. We wanted to hear from all sorts of people, both within and without the faith.

We also believed that our ideas needed to hold up, or transform, under scrutiny. Very quickly, we discovered that those who saw things differently from us might not communicate in a way that was comfortable for others and us. But, we wanted to hear from them and so we decided to cut them some slack.

Many of today’s “gospel” bloggers claim to be missional but spend an awful lot of time lecturing others on proper means of communication. We are far more interested in understanding what people are trying to say. Some are better communicators than others. But, within God’s economy, each person is important and we try to go beyond the words to the hearts of the people.

In other words, Deb and I are not the important ones on this blog. Those who share their hearts, hurts, frustrations and thoughts are the focus.  We seek to serve those who come here. Yet, so many times, many of our readers prop us up and, for that, we are thankful.

Sometimes it is hard to accept criticism. Often, my initial gut response is to get irritated and self-protective. And I know that this can show up in my responses. But I do battle with my soul every day, forcing myself to consider even the hard things that are said to us. There are many times when I tell myself to “take a deep breath” and to watch the sarcasm. As time has gone on, it has become easier but I still do battle in my soul.

Both of us want to do our best to express one thing and that is that all of you, our readers, are valued and cared about. We pray for you, my Bible study prays for you. You are cherished and we do not take your for granted. Both of us are still startled that people want to read what we think.

However, in our naïveté, we sometimes assume that other bloggers are like us, especially when they claim to be “gospel-driven”, Christian leaders. We supposed that they would take critique as we do, sometimes seriously and sometimes with humor, such as our list of “What the world is saying about the Wartburg Watch demonstrates, Here are a few examples.

  • Wartburg witches
  • Obscure 
  • Wenches
  • O glorious wenches
  • Minions of Satan
  • Hatemongers
  • x#&**#xx!@
  • Narcissistic zeroes
  • Morons
  • Warthogs

We have also presupposed that, since we are women and considered “weaker” than the big boys in leadership, these patriarchs would be able to take it on the chin far more easily than we do. Due to a number of untoward interactions with some “leaders,” we have proven that strength of character and good humor is not based in gender but in the belief that we are all screw-ups and can accept such things with grace. In other words, the two of us are sometimes far more secure than some men.

The Three Part Twitter Event

Part One: Is this what complementarians mean by missional?

As many of our readers know, Jared C Wilson ran into some problems when he posted a comment by Doug Wilson (no relation) which many women and men found offensive. After a series of exchanges throughout the blogosphere, Jared Wilson backed down and apologized for the comment. Link

Although I felt the exchange did not fully deal with some of Jared’s mean comments to those who commented (For example: the ESL comments which I believe also had some racial undertones), I decided that the story was closed after his apology.

I do not follow Jared’s tweets but do occasionally check out his blog at The Gospel Coalition. Last week, several TWW commenters began discussing a tweet by Jared that they found disturbing. I decided to check it out. Here is what he said. (I have screen shots of these comments as well.)

"If Queen Latifah's just standing around, Dallas might want to add her to their O-line."

Since he was watching football (he kept tweeting about it) I was able to find a link to her singing the national anthem at the game.

Queen Latifah is a good-looking woman with an amazing voice. She has also lost weight with Jenny Craig and encourages women to do the same.

Was this tweet a “gospel-driven” statement? Would any of us say this to her face? Does this statement convey that Jared Wilson perceives Queen Latifah’s God-given value? Are these gentle and kind words? Does this tweet demonstrate his respect for women, especially in light of the previous Doug Wilson controversy?

  • Worse, there were 55 retweets of this comment!!!!
  • One man replied to Wilson’s Twitter :  " Thats (sic) mean but funny." 
  • And a woman replied, simply  “ouch”

Is this how we attempt to bring the gospel to a watching world, laughing at comments about a woman’s body?

Part Two-My responses

Until this past Friday I had not used the reply feature in twitter. I tried once but I do not think I did it correctly and gave up. The first thing I did was read about the ins and outs of how to reply to tweets. Then, to be fair, I checked to see if Jared had ever had an Twitter ”reply” conversation. In fact, he had done so with a woman who disagreed with him. The exchange was about 5 tweets each. So, I  foolishly believed that he wanted to dialog, like in a Blog Type 4.

1. My response from @bidgod to Jared (bidgod is the Twitter account held by Deb. We both have access to each other’s Twitter accounts.)

After the Doug Wilson incident, are you sure you want to send tweets like this?

 Jared's response to Dee @bidgod

You mean, b/c I'm implying a woman could do a job just as well as a man?

2. I was startled by his sarcastic retort! So, I switched over to my wartwatch account and responded with two back-to-back tweets since I could not fit my entire two questions on one tweet. (You are limited to 140 characters). He did not respond so I left it there, hardly harassing him.

 No, and you know it. If I tweeted the same about Dr Dorothy Patterson would you view me as kind?

BTW- people are discussing this already at TWW. I am holding off commenting. Would you want me to post your last reply?

I mentioned Dr. Dorothy Patterson to show that he would most likely not say something mean about a well-known lady within the faith. It was meant to convey that we might need to be more circumspect, and loving, in how we communicate about those who might not be within our little evangelical community.

I also tried to suggest that, if he would be uncomfortable with me posting the comment on our blog, then perhaps he should not have tweeted such a statement.

At this point. I was not planning on writing a post about this exchange until….

Part 3 The game is afoot!

A couple of hours later, I needed to check something on my twitter account  (I was planning on counting all the times I tweeted about the Pastor Youcef situation) and found that all my followers and tweets had been deleted and my account suspended! I thought it was a mistake until I received an email from Twitter telling me

“Twitter has spam systems that review account behavior and automatically suspend users who appear to be engaging in spam behavior. It looks like a disproportionately large number of users, including ones you followed or @replied, have chosen to either block your account or report it as spam.”

Well, here is the problem, I follow only 2 accounts at wartwatch-and neither had reported me. (One is a good friend and the other is a devotional site).

Secondly, and more importantly, I had only used the “@replied"  for the first time, and that was to Jared C Wilson and you can see the three replies that I sent. (We have screen shots of all of these tweets).

I immediately protested to Twitter and, two hours later, Twitter unblocked my account. I have also asked for a full review of my Twitter activities because this situation is just plain wrong.  I am a benign tweeter and tend to tweet Monday through Friday, one (occasionally two) tweets a day.  These tweets deal with news of religious interest on a wide variety of topics.  From time to time, I provide a humorous tweet like the lady who recreated DaVinci’s Last Supper by using dryer lint.

Unlike others, I do not tweet mundane personal items such as 6 tweets reporting my progress on going to the mall or 10 tweets about watching a football game. I hardly think most people would care about my daily activities such as washing dishes, sweeping floors or irritating authoritarian pastors.

To make matters worse, I received the following disconcerting note from Diane, a TWW participant.

"I emailed Jared yesterday AM but have not had a reply yet. I also had a warning from Microsoft on my email last evening about 9:00 that “malicious activity” may be taking place on my account and my account was blocked until I could verify who I was."

Thankfully, she was able to restore her account immediately.

Hoping to find an explanation at Jared’s Twitter page I found the following statement:

“@jaredcwilson's account is protected.Only confirmed followers have access to @jaredcwilson's Tweets and complete profile. Click the "Follow" button to send a follow request.”

So, what did he suddenly become afraid of? From what I can tell, today, his twitter feed is now open.
 

Comments:

  • It would be so easy to play this game, tit for tat, but I cannot. We will leave silly games up to the Calvinistas. We are far too busy spreading the Gospel via an open blog in which people are free to engage us.
  • If my simple questions were so threatening to Jared, how would he stand if actually persecuted for the faith like Pastor Youcef?
  • It seems as if some Christians have traded in "turning the other cheek" for, to quote Mark Driscoll, “Punching them in the nose.” Love has become the new four letter word is some circles.
  • Character is not discovered when we are on our best behavior, speaking at “gospel” conventions and writing ”gospel” books.  Our character and our witness to the faith is discovered when we are on the receiving end of criticism, sometimes very unfair criticism.
  • Christians need to dialog with one another. If Jared had simply said that he did not want to discuss this with me, I would have gone away. Instead, this escalated into an episode of the popular TV series, Revenge, that took up much of one evening.
  • We must all be aware that we exist, voluntarily, in the public arena. Think of the Apostle Paul at Mars Hill. If you are uncomfortable with this, please don’t blog or tweet. Deb and I would have absolutely no problem with anyone posting any of our tweets on their site. Can you imagine Paul saying "Don't quote me?"
  • Finally, there are implications for shutting down someone's Twitter account. Analysis link of the Pastor Youcef situation appears to indicate that those people, following the Pastor Youcef page on Twitter and then retweeting the information about his situation, helped in the efforts to secure his release. Wartwatch has been one of those who have played a  small part of this worldwide effort.  Thankfully, Twitter reinstated our account and, today we, once again, were able to tweet the happy news of his release.

We implore today's hardball Calvinistas to try a little love and compassion and to be just a little less thin-skinned. In fact, we think you should stand up and take it like a man,  just like the two of us!

We end on this thoughtful song by Michael Card about The Word who became flesh. May we always remember that we serve the Living Word!

Lydia's Corner: Exodus 4:1-5:21 Matthew 18:1-20 Psalm 22:19-31 Proverbs 5:15-21

Comments

Gospel Hardball — 249 Comments


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    Echo of history
    A light so many strain to see
    The One we talk so much about
    But rarely ever live it out
    Could You tell me why
    Was it for this You came and died
    A once a week observance
    When we coldly mouth Your words
    —- M Card: Know You In The Now


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    That Michael Card album is one of my favorites. So many good old MC songs…

    Joy in the Journey

    Could It Be

    That’s What Faith Must Be

    Love Crucified, Arose

    (I am so old. Yeesh.)


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    Sallie
    I love all of his music and so I am just as old.


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    Dave
    And that is why you are an apostle.You are a Card fan as well!


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    Sweet heavens! I don’t always agree with you on issues but I sure to appreciate all you do. You’ve got a heart of gold. Do they think this is an act of good will or do they enjoy stirring up bad press for themselves? A little courtesy goes a long way.


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    The way to wage twitter battles is to use hashtags in your tweets and this will mobilize twitter users to your cause. The hashtags can be any words that resonate with users either christian or non-christian.

    I would encourage to using only one twitter account during a dialog.

    I am thinking a verified profile on twitter would be the way to go, but I am guessing it is only given to users who use real names on their twitter id. At @WartWatch, I am guessing Dee Parsons can be made a verified profile, as you are using your real name.

    The more you use twitter, the more addicting it becomes. It is a powerful tool to contact users in real time and also challenge any one in authority.


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    Just saw the comments on Michael Card. When my 25 year old daughter was 3 and we were expecting our first child, we asked her what she would want to name the new baby. Without hesitation, she shouted, “MICHAEL CARD!” She used to listen to his lullaby album “Sleep Sound in Jesus” all the time. I still sing “The Lord Bless You and Keep You” from it.


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    I mean third child. She was our first child. 🙂 Now she’s got two little boys of her own. One thing I like about Michael Card is his love for the Scriptures. His songs are so theologically grounded. It would be wonderful if all bloggers would take his cue. Claiming to be Biblical and Gospel is not enough if you aren’t.


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    Dee – I read that you asked for a full review. Did you get a formal response from Twitter?


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    Julie Anne
    Not yet but I will pursue it. I am a bit irritated.


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    Thy Peace
    I got confused which twitter account I was on. I thought I was on wartwatch and we prefer to use this account for these types of discussion. Bidgod is for our Bible verses. However, we are only talking three tweets here.

    I like the idea of a verified profile so I will check into it.


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    Anyone else seen Driscoll’s latest crap? http://pastormark.tv/2012/09/04/5-reasons-why-esther-may-be-the-toughest-bible-book-ive-ever-preached

    He’s preaching through Esther and has recast her as some sort of vapid prostitute. I wish he’d just stop wasting all our time and admit he sees all women as either whore-sluts or slut-whores.


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    Dee: I do not think you did any thing wrong here. This hardball religion is how these small boys play.


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    Pam, thanks for the crazy link. My first thought was, “He can find only two heroines in the bible?” The rest just had me speechless. All I can do now is laugh.


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    Eagle, no, no! Anything but his Song of Songs b.s.!!!


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    When I was in the hospital and they offered to install a catheter I got chills and told them to no. — Eagle

    Only way they got one up my urethra was I was under general anesthesia at the time. (Same way they got the NG tube down me.) However, I was awake when they removed them. No fun.

    I can’t imagine the idea of labor or popping a child out between my legs. So I would consider women to be quite strong. — Eagle

    “TAKE YOUR LOWER LIP! AND PULL IT UP OVER YOUR HEAD!”
    — Bill Cosby

    Anyone else seen Driscoll’s latest crap? http://pastormark.tv/2012/09/04/5-reasons-why-esther-may-be-the-toughest-bible-book-ive-ever-preached

    He’s preaching through Esther and has recast her as some sort of vapid prostitute. I wish he’d just stop wasting all our time and admit he sees all women as either whore-sluts or slut-whores. — Pam

    This is Bee Jay Driscoll, remember. The guy’s obsessed. It’s like something out of a Frank Miller comic (whores whores whores whores whores whores whores whores whores…)


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    What you have experienced is pretty typical of authoritarian personalities and systems. They do well when among their own group where their rules are obeyed and everyone is acceptable because they conform. Get them outside of that small world, though in a venue where there are real questions and criticisms, and they become defensive and often nasty. The impetus is to protect the authoritarian system, even to the extent that it overrules the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. In reality, the neighborhood is pretty shrunken and carefully defined. If you are outside it, you are fair game. Seen this in action with some family members who have gotten heavily involved in such a system. The contrast between how they treat those who are “in” and those who are “out” is like night and day.


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    Oasis, bad as SoS may have been all three times Driscoll ran through it he could get even worse with Esther.


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    Well, if Driscoll tries to build his case from the rabbinic tradition that proposed Mordecai and Esther were married …

    But Driscoll used to say there was nothing a Christian could learn about the Bible from rabbis … didn’t he?

    I would have thought a big disincentive for preaching from Esther would be manifold in early Christianity.
    1) Many converts were Gentiles and as Acts and other canonical NT texts indicate there was some controversy about how much Gentile Christians needed to comply with Torah observance.
    2) Esther’s history of being canonized even with Judaism was a bit fraught and the book doesn’t appear in Qumran
    3) Since the whole point of Esther is to tell the story of how Purim was founded and the historicity of the book has been questioned to the point of proposing the whole thing was a fabrication to explain the observance of a festival that is not even commanded in the Torah … why, exactly, WOULD the earliest Christians have made a point of preaching or teaching from it?
    4) If the tradition that Mordecai and Esther were married retains traction then, yes, that’d present problems but the story’s tone is surprisingly jocular on the subject of Jews facing genocide in an exilic context.

    Driscoll presents his approach toward Esther as though he’s doing something daring. He’s not. There are at least 111 links to sermons on Esther, several of those being expository sermons over at monergism.org. Pretending that the book is nuclear radiation for the reasons he provides is a selective set of references to divergent schools of thought on the nature of the book and the reliability of its narrative.


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    @ JJ – I came across the Driscoll link at RHE. I was going to just link to her post because the section she quotes of Driscoll is awful, but then I looked at his whole blog post and really, it gets even worse when the whole thing is read. I will say one positive thing for Driscoll from this, though – I read through the entirety of Esther today to see if I could find where on earth he was pulling his crap from (couldn’t find it), and I’m looking forward to RHE presenting her own series on Esther.


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    Eagle,

    WOW! What a heartfelt comment!

    I am grateful that both your leg and your heart are on the mend. It is so wonderful to see you commenting again. You were missed by many.


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    Eagle, thanks for posting instead of e-mailing. You have blessed me by sharing your sweet story. Beautiful!!


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    @ Pam:

    “She grows up in a very lukewarm religious home as an orphan raised by her uncle. Beautiful, she allows men to tend to her needs and make her decisions. Her behavior is sinful and she spends around a year in the spa getting dolled up to lose her virginity with the pagan king like hundreds of other women. She performs so well that he chooses her as his favorite. Today, her story would be, a beautiful young woman living in a major city allows men to cater to her needs, undergoes lots of beauty treatment to look her best, and lands a really rich guy whom she meets on The Bachelor and wows with an amazing night in bed. She’s simply a person without any character until her own neck is on the line, and then we see her rise up to save the life of her people when she is converted to a real faith in God.”

    Great. Just when I thought we couldn’t get any interpretation of Esther WORSE than One Night with the King (which Driscoll recommends in the article, of course). He makes it sound like Xerxes aired commercials all around Susa looking for girls to come to his “wife auditions” (ala American Idol) and Esther, air-headed bimbo that she must have been, decided it would be great for a lark or something. And I thought Mark WANTED women to have men tend to their needs and make all their decisions? Isn’t that usually what “protection” entails?

    “Feminists have tried to cast Esther’s life as a tragic tale of male domination and female liberation. Many evangelicals have ignored her sexual sin and godless behavior to make her into a Daniel-like figure, which is inaccurate. Some have even tried to tie her story in with modern-day, sex-slave trafficking as she was brought before the powerful king as part of his harem. What’s the truth?”

    Well, it just so happens she IS taken off to the harem, which just so happens to be one of the very real and ugly consequences of an uber-patriarchal society. Ottoman Empire, anybody? This isn’t too hard to demonstrate from history. The really ironic part is that this section is labeled “Esther has been grossly misinterpreted.”

    Don’t ever let Mark get ahold of The Scarlet Letter – it has some rather striking parallels with Esther (most obviously, the heroine’s name) and has even been theorized to be Hawthorne’s “retelling” of the story. And just as the word “God” is conspicuously missing from (but ever-present throughout) the book of Esther, the word “adultery” is missing from but ever-present throughout The Scarlet Letter.


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    Eagle

    I am glad you are healing in your body, your heart and mind, and in your relationships.

    I could not come myself to visit, due to the distance and other commitments, but I did ask a pastor friend in DC to come visit, and she did (did not get to see you due to a procedure in progress) and sent another pastor from her church to see you as well. I suspect you might find Calvary Baptist in DC a place to find acceptance and Christians who emphasize love and grace over control and rules.


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    Addendum:

    As for being dragged off to the harem, I seem to recall this is one of the things One Night with the King actually got right – the king’s men ride through Susa and round up pretty virgins. And Mark is, ironically, in lockstep with the Puritans’ behavior in The Scarlet Letter – blasting a woman in a horrible situation as a godless whore, when a more measured look at the situation would reveal her to be not nearly as bad as she’s made out to be, and in many ways far better than her accusers. Which could have been Hawthorne’s point in the first place.


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    Dee,

    Great post! 

    This Tweet, which appeared on Al Mohler’s Twitter feed in early 2011, continues to be one of the most mind-boggling Tweets I have ever read:

    “RT @drmoore. C.J. Mahaney just asked our server what she would guess he, @almohler, and I do for a living. She guessed ‘exotic dancers.’ 

    It really is amazing what you can learn through Twitter…


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    Eagle, what a blessing your post gave me first thing this morning!


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    Eagle, thank you for sharing that on the blog instead of privately, it was a blessing to read that something good came out of such a terrible experience! It’s so good to see you commenting again. How goes the recovery, by the way? Is your leg healing well?


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    Eagle

    Thank you for your kind words. Also, than you so sending me “Don’t cry for me, Argentina” Evita! I have always wanted to see it. You are awesome!


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    As for Driscoll, this guy cannot let it go. I have said it before, and I will say it again, there is something deeply wrong and one day there will be a crisis. Then all of his followers and buddies will whine and say they didn’t see it coming.

    Glad to see Evans has picked it up. She will irritate the heck out of these supposed “gospel” seeking boys. The question I have is, “What gospel are they seeking and driving?”


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    My face hurts from all the facepalming I’ve been doing this morning, beginning last night when I read Mark Driscoll’s little introduction to his sermon series on Esther, and continuing with this blog post regarding “Pastor” Wilson’s twitter sabotage.

    Marky, if you’re reading this, do us all a favour and: Don’t. Don’t even. There aren’t enough words available to me to describe how much you should not even begin to preach a sermon series on Esther, when you can’t even get the basic characters right. Who’s Mordecai? Her cousin or uncle? Derp, derp, derp… Of course, Esther’s a woman, so she’s either a submissive wife or a whore (maybe both?). You’re so predictable, it’s boring.

    To Jared Wilson: Your immaturity is showing. (again).

    To Deb & Dee: I am so glad you are both Type # 4 bloggers! That’s what I love most about TWW, you allow a wide range of comments to stand, you welcome and show grace and love to all the misfits, and when you challenge others you do so with grace.


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    Deb and Dee:

    Thanks for allowing all views. It is refreshingly rare. I guess some folks can not deal in a positive way with dissenting views. This shows something about themselves that they are afraid their view just might be wrong.


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    Eagle
    I am so glad to hear your recovery is well under way and you have friends nearby to help you and cheer you up. I enjoyed our hospital visit together and the invitation for a tour of the Naval Academy still stands whenever you’re up for it.


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    Though I do not agree with how you have been treated…in a way, it is part of the cost of what you do. You will be misunderstood…slandered…lied about….and in this way, you will taste a little of the suffering of Christ. He was most persecuted…by the RELIGIOUS persons of the day. I have experienced this as well in my own family, and have dealt with it for years, so I guess I come from the same perspective. Do not retaliate. Let your behaviour evidence class, grace, and show others how to deal with snide remarks and rudeness. You know a lot about a person by who is AGAINST them. Sometimes, sadly, it will be your fellow professing Christians.


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    It looks like seminaries are going to need to start offering classes in social media competance as a required course in first year. The YRR has used it to expand their influence, yes, but so many pastors don’t seem to understand its uber public nature and viral potential.

    Also, Jared, grow up.


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    Excellent thoughts, justabeliever!


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    Eagle –

    Glad you are feeling better. I hope your complete restoration continues. It was good to hear that a relationship is being mended, your leg is mending, your humor has returned, and you’re making some new friends along the way! I, also, thank you for sharing these things publicly. You allowed us to weep with those who morn and rejoice with those who rejoice, even if it is from afar!


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    “narcissistic zeros” I think it is hilarious how these narcs always tell on themselves.


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    Dee –

    I like the “Gospel Hardball” oxymoron for the title of this post. I don’t like it as a means of sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ. Jesus was uncompromising and might have played hardball with the religious elite of his day, but he lived, loved, befriended, and shared himself and the Father with the downtrodden, heartbroken, sick, and destitude. All of humanity falls into these caregories at some point. Thanks to you and Deb for being disciples of Jesus Christ.


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    justabeliever

    I had to struggle with not retaliating. It is so easy to do. But, I would be doing the same thing to him he did to me.So it makes no sense. Someone needs to play the grownup.

    I am insisting on a full review by Twitter for one reason only. Once you receive a Twitter suspension, you can get suspended again very quickly. I have been reading about this via google. What is to prevent him, or one of his gospel buddies, from trying it again?

    If Twitter can be on the alert that some insecure individuals are trying this sort of tactic against our Twitter account, then they can nip it in the bud.


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    Bridget
    I heartily protest the co-option of the glorious Gospel for a legalistic agenda. Today certain Calvinistas put the word,Gospel, in front of everything from gospel young marriages to gospel gender roles. They have trivialized what Christ came to do.

    I love the Gospel. I do not love what they are doing to the gospel.They are making it an overused adjective.


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    I read through Driscolls short article on Esther. Wow! What lens is he looking through to presuppose so many outlandish ideas into that story?! Does he have a need to set every female character in Scripture into their proper place in his little world?


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    Sallie and Dee (first comments),

    I love all of Michael Card’s music too, and I am still in my 20’s so to me it doesn’t make you sound old at all! His Starkindler album is in my top 5 favorites of all time. 🙂 I listen to it over and over and sing my heart out. His music communicates such peace and rest and the love of our father. I’ve never heard any music that does this better.


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    Dee –

    I agree. I fear, for some, that they have used the word “Gospel” to sell many goods. They have profited financially as well as selling “ideas” with the word. They suggest with this use of the word that whatever “idea” is proposed after the word “Gospel” is good and should not be rejected. If the “idea” is rejected, then the Gospel has been rejected. What a guilt trip can be put on people with this use of the word. It can cause some to walk away from the Truth.


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    As for Driscoll, this guy cannot let it go. I have said it before, and I will say it again, there is something deeply wrong and one day there will be a crisis. Then all of his followers and buddies will whine and say they didn’t see it coming. — Dee

    Wanna bet it’s gonna be a JUICY Sex Scandal?

    I mean, I thought my head had an extreme case of “Virgin/Whore Dichotomy”. (Lotsa bad experiences with females does that to you.) But Bee Jay Driscoll’s is way too extreme even for me. To the point I think he’d be more at home in the Saudi or Talibani Religious Police/Enforcers.


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    This is unbelievable to me.

    “A simple, yes, you are right. I should not have made fun of Queen Latifa” would have done the trick.

    Or even just ignoring it.

    I actually think that Mohler’s tweet is funny. He and Mahaney looked like a couple of square, buttoned down guys. The waitress saw that and poked fun at them.

    Michael Card is a nice person, as well as a good song writer.

    Driscoll just keeps digging!


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    @ Searching:

    “Of course, Esther’s a woman, so she’s either a submissive wife or a whore (maybe both?).”

    Didn’t he previously say that Esther was a godly submissive wife, and Vashti was evil and rebellious because she disobeyed Xerxes? So according to Mark, Esther is a lascivious gold digger who is simultaneously a godly wife, but Vashti is evil and rebellious because she refused to parade around naked in front of her husband and his buddies. If that’s what Mark thinks submission is, Grace must get pretty nervous every time he has a party (since logically, if Vashti was rebelling, then Xerxes was issuing a legitimate command and not ordering his wife to sin, and therefore Mark can tell his wife to do the same thing).

    But then he calls Xerxes a “pagan king” and says that Esther was wrong to go after/marry him. So Vashti is evil for disobeying the sinful command of her unsaved husband? And Esther is in a godly submission relationship with a man whom she allegedly was never supposed to be with?

    FUBAR.


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    Eagle … I don’t have your contact info either. I will email Dee and ask her to put us in touch.


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    You know what is telling? It would NEVER occur to me to try and get someone elses twitter account suspended in such a case. Does anyone else see the larger ramifications of a PASTOR….A person PAID to be a minister doing this?

    There is a theme running among the celebrity wannabes and it is they have no love of basic freedoms and have no qualms about jumping to arbitrary censorship using many means they can get by with. It happens more than people think.

    For the sake of freedom, DEE and DEB MUST have Twitter review this and make sure the entire episode is documented. That is NOT retaliation.

    We hare not dealing with mature Christians


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    Dee:

    Please be sure to keep all documentation with Twitter and screenshots.

    There is an ongoing battle to shut down those who expose. This is not about conspiracy theories. My pastor tried to shut me down via the $500K lawsuit. YouTube shut down Kevin Oliver’s YouTube channel – he exposes church abuse. (Tom Rich exposed Kevin’s story: http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2012/06/christian-video-blogger-files-suit.html) And a couple months ago, Tom Rich’s site and mine were flagged by Norton Anti-Virus software and those who had that software running were unable to access our sites.

    We cannot forget that this is a bigger battle. It’s not just about Dee and Jared. It’s much bigger.


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    Any women who can sit and listen to Mark beleiving what he preaches, has a low self image if she is not getting up and leaving. We must pray for the women who believe his twisting of scripture to feed his own narcissistic supply.


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    It’s one thing to state your position, quite another when people, especially clergy, work to silence dissent, a tactic which seems to becoming a big part of the conservative religious arsenal in some quarters. Here’s a new example from a ‘minister’ who also happens to be a Maryland state legislator:

    “Burns, who is also the pastor and founder of the Rising Sun First Baptist Church in Woodlawn, has been under fire for a letter he wrote last month urging Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti to “take the necessary action” and order Ayanbadejo to “cease and desist” his advocacy of gay rights.”

    More details can be found here, among others:

    http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-09-09/news/bs-md-burns-backlash-20120909_1_burns-backs-ravens-linebacker-brendon-ayanbadejo-support-of-gay-marriage


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    I am thinking that Driscoll knows exactly the reactions his intro to Esther is/will provoke. Aside from it being a ratings hike for his controversial celebrity status I think he wants to “prove” that us female egalitarians are a bunch of raging angry bitter women. I know that I need to calm down right now for my health’s sake. He certainly provokes me.


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    Oh my, Driscoll makes me so thankful for Cowboy Church like we had last Sunday.

    At least the manure came out of the horse, not the pastor.

    And it was pretty easy to shovel.


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    Let’s hope this Driscoll et. al. ‘Gospel of BS’ about Esther doesn’t get any traction because God knows how long it would take to stamp it out. The BS about Mary Magdalene being a prostitute began in the 500’s and wasn’t significantly challenged until the 20th Century and hasn’t been completely stamped out yet.


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    To be fair, I haven’t listened to Mark Driscoll’s sermon on Esther, so I am hoping that you have all quoted from it fairly and accurately.

    If this is the case, then his exegesis astonishes me… where does he get the idea that she grew up in a lukewarm religious environment? And as for sinful behaviour, where does he get that idea as well? Whatever you think of the king (and he comes across as a bit arbitrary, capricious and none too bright where Haman is concerned), in those days Persian kings (and others) did have harems. But to be a member of a harem was still to be a wife. As C S Lewis once wrote, men might have argued about whether you could have one wife or several, but they still agreed that adultery was wrong.

    As for Artaxerxes being a pagan king, this is true, but we do not know whether he allowed his wives the freedom to practise their own religion. I wouldn’t defend paganism, but Zororostrianism is somewhat different to the fertility cults of Canaan, and the Persians were more tolerant. Hmm… admittedly whether under OT law she should have married him is a good question, yet the fact appears to be that Esther was placed in the position of queen to save her people from genocide.

    Jeff seems to me to be correct – the Gospels say that Mary Magdalene had devils cast out of her, but does not otherwise talk about her past life before she met Jesus.


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    The BS about Mary Magdalene being a prostitute began in the 500′s and wasn’t significantly challenged until the 20th Century and hasn’t been completely stamped out yet. — Jeff

    Somebody in an Internet Monk comment thread last year described what happened to Miriam of Magdala as “Medieval theologians noted the story of a repentant prostitute close to where Mary Magdalene is first named, theorized the two were one and the same, and went to town as only those vowed to celibacy since age six could fantazize.” Ending up with what was effectively officially-approved sexual fantasy for cloistered monks and celibate clergy.


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    If this is the case, then his exegesis astonishes me… where does he get the idea that she grew up in a lukewarm religious environment? And as for sinful behaviour, where does he get that idea as well? — Kolya

    Continuing on my previous comment re “Mary Magdalene being a prostitute”, it was very common for Medieval theologians to spin elaborate and detailed theological speculations from one-shot mentions of something in the Bible. (Take a look at Medieval Angelology for an example.)

    Victorian scholars had a similar reputation re secular history (especially Medieval), where “reconstruction” and speculation was an accepted method for filling in the gaps.

    And Bee Jay Driscoll is just following this tradition reading so much into Esther’s background and behavior, “speculatively reconstructing” her past. However, as Entropy sets in “speculative reconstruction” slips all too easily past “fake but accurate” into just “false”.


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    There are additions to the book of Esther in some apocryphal writings as well. One segment states that Artaxerxes demanded that Vashti appear before the party naked.


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    From The Jewish Encyclopedia: The Apocryphal Book of Esther.

    Scroll down past all of the initial citations and there are detailed synopses of the apocryphal stories.


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    Hester said: “But then he calls Xerxes a “pagan king” and says that Esther was wrong to go after/marry him. So Vashti is evil for disobeying the sinful command of her unsaved husband? And Esther is in a godly submission relationship with a man whom she allegedly was never supposed to be with?

    FUBAR.”

    I know, right!? The mental gymnastics necessary to follow that line of reasoning is dang near impossible. My brain hurts, and it’s not because what I’m trying to decipher is exceptionally intelligent! :p


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    There’s more at this site, and it’s written in a very straightforward, non-scholarly manner. (Site: Jewish Women: A Comprehensive Historical Encyclopedia.)


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    … Although the 2 encyclopedia entries I cited talk about entirely different things, for the most part.

    Textual studies gets confusing really fast, if only because – as in this case – there are so many alternate versions.


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    Chabad.org has Esther (under Megillah) with commentary in its section on Purim. It is fascinating and completely unlike MD’s article. For HUG, there’s always the VeggieTales version.


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    Incidentally, I love Queen Latifah. JW ‘s remsrks were mean spirited


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    Okay – bear with me here as an English Woman…what is the O-line?

    Also, I’ve been over to Rachel Held Evan’s site to read what she wrote…her site has had a upgrade & I can’t find any of the comments on any of the posts – has my server misloaded it?, or am I just a dumb chick who should admit that Driscoll & the Bayley Brothers have us girls bang to rights…


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    It means “offensive line.” American football.


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    Searching

    Driscoll claims he is studying and praying for insight into Esther according to Evans. I have news for him. There is no way, unless you have some very peculiar thinking, (and most people would say that peculiar is a mild word for Driscoll), that you come up with Esther being a whore unless you are focused on every owman being a whore. Is he still hung up on his wife’s behavior as a high school student as well? That seems to be an obssession with him.


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    To see the comments on a post at Rachel’s blog, you need to go to the post and hit ‘refresh’. They still have a few kinks to work through over there. 🙂


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    HUG

    He is not speculating. he is reading and praying and  I fear he might be receving more pornovision.


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    linda

    🙂


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    Julie Anne

    I am keeping those screen shots right where I can see them every day to remind myself what I am up against. 


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    Anon1

    I will make sure this is dealt with. I want to be sure that our site is protected so we can continue with our regular tweets. And you can be darn tooting sure i will never, ever tweet or email his. he is not worrth the trouble. Some of these guys whould be living at home with  their mommies.


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    Houston, we have a problem.

    Yeah, this isn’t new news (and this is OT), but here’s the latest.

    Guess who’s now advising men to ditch Christianity for Islam so they can beat their wives into submission? Pat Robertson!!!

    I wish I was exaggerating on both counts but with lines like “Well, you could become a Muslim and you could beat her,” and, “You can’t divorce her, according to Scripture, so I say, move to Saudi Arabia,” it’s really hard to say I am.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/09/10/gospel-hardball/

    I got this from Jeff Crippen’s site.

    http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2012/09/10/pat-robertson-prescribes-wife-beating-really/


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    Hester

    You are right. I wonder if Mark has ever ordered his wife to prade nude in front of his friends who were over there for  a nigth of cage fighting and microbrewing. Did anyone ever wash his mouth out with soap? 


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    Oh thank goodness it is a DISQUS problem…no kowtowing to my patriarchal overlords, I wasn’t sure how I’d do that.

    As for Driscoll – a man who tries to speak into a sex-obsessed culture in a sex-obsessed way; who tries to reach out to alientated groups of men in a way that alienates other groups of men…does he really not have anyone in his life that checks the veracity of what he says, whether it’s even true to the passages in question? Does no-one read his sermon notes beforehand? Or does he just have to say enough gospel buzzwords, a couple of flashes of pornovision & then everyone turns a blind eye? He is, unfortunately, almost indisputably going to crash & burn in some high-profile (probably sexual) manner that he can then gospel repent from & write a gospel book about saying how it has gospelly glorified God.


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    P.S. Thanks Juniper…I thought it must be something similar, uless it was something to do with Oprah.


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    “He is, unfortunately, almost indisputably going to crash & burn in some high-profile (probably sexual) manner that he can then gospel repent from & write a gospel book about saying how it has gospelly glorified God.”

    Beakerj, that line made me almost choke on my water. Brilliant! 😀


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    Hold onto your water Searching – thanks to Juniper I found out that Jared Wilson tweetd an offensive line about an offensive line. Comedy gold. You couldn’t make it up. Gospel. Gospel. Sorry – not enough gospel in this post for you to take me seriously. Gospel. Aaargh, is it a form of gospel tourettes?


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    The O-line or offensive line in American football consists of five men, usually six feet tall and 280-350 pounds apiece. On passing plays, to stay between the D(efensive) Linemen (usually 4) and the quarterback (usually not a terribly big guy) and keep him from being smashed to the ground or worse. On running plays, to create a path by pushing the D-linemen away from the target “hole” for the running back to get through.

    To say that a woman should be considered for the O-line is to suggest that she is overweight and very big. Generally considered an insult of magnitude that it may result in a man being kneed or kicked in his manhood, or worse.


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    As for Driscoll – a man who tries to speak into a sex-obsessed culture in a sex-obsessed way; who tries to reach out to alientated groups of men in a way that alienates other groups of men…does he really not have anyone in his life that checks the veracity of what he says, whether it’s even true to the passages in question? Does no-one read his sermon notes beforehand? — BeakerJ

    Anyone who would “check the veracity or what he says” or “read his sermon notes beforehand” would have been fired and excommunicated (and probably punched in the nose) for daring to differ with the CELEBRITY Megapastor.

    What we have here is a CELEBRITY who can only tolerate Total Yes-Men in his presence. Yes-Men and ONLY Yes-Men.


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    Somebody I know who used to live in Seattle told me that she didn’t consider Mark Driscoll’s church a place to get sound biblical teaching. I can certainly understand why after reading his views on Esther. I’m shaking my head in disbelief.


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    Dee wrote: “…I had to struggle with not retaliating…”

    This is one of the things we all really prize about you Dee. You ain’t like them.


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    “Aaargh, is it a form of gospel tourettes?”

    Beakerj, you owe me a new computer keyboard. I spit out my ice tea.


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    Oh Leila, I’m truly gospel sorry.


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    @ Sallie & Dee,

    You ain’t old music-wise unless you can remember the hullabaloo Dylan caused when he plugged in a Stratocaster at the Newport folk festival.
    ===> (smiley face goes here)


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    Dee: Who do you think Jared is calling an “internet nitpicker” in the following tweet?
    Tweet: Isaiah 51:7. Why I ain’t stuttin’ internet nitpickers.

    https://twitter.com/jaredcwilson/status/245620857433649152

    Here is the verse he mentions:

    “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness,
    A people in whose heart is My law;
    Do not fear the reproach of man,
    Nor be dismayed at their revilings.


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    I wish I could say I’m surprised your Twittwr account got locked, but…I’m not. I still remember how shocked I was to read a story in the Boston Phoenix in 2001 (so YES before the spring of 2002 when the story exploded). The story was about the hardball litigation tactics used by lawyers for the Catholic Church, tactics I’d thought were previously restricted to the legal vultures of the Church of $cientology.

    Without going into excessive detail, I’ll just note I’m simply not surprised any more. But it was surely a grim realization (and it wasn’t strictly about lawyers defending Catholic dioceses either) to determine Christian leadership could be just as sordid, venal and, yes, stupid in their dealings with both members and outsiders. I guess I expected Christian leaders to act better than the leader of a space-alien cult. I was wrong.

    I don’t see “Christian” leaders acting Christian, but in every way just like “the world.” In fact, I now see worse behavior than “the world.” For example, the evil, wicked and rotten world recognizes that bullying can be extremely damaging to children, but “Christian” leaders are against having programs against bullying in the public schools, because it would interfere with their favorite pastime of “Bash the Homo.” I was bullied in school (not because of sexuality but because it was perceived I was weak) and frankly, Christians ought to be appalled. But they’re not. They’re proud.

    The only consolation I can offer you, Deb and Dee, is that you’ve not had flyers proclaiming you to be a religious bigot plastered around your neighborhood, or you’ve not had people picket your home or even had your name and pictures end up on an enemies website. I hesitated before mentioning these things, because I really don’t want to give people ideas. Then again, if they’ll stoop so low as to emulate a space-alien cult, thre’s nothing which will embarrass good sense into them.


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    Julie Anne

    Another word for revilings is insults. Is he referring to his insult of Queen Latifah? 🙂  I don’t see any other insults. 


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    Singleman

    If only Esther was his only slip up. Totally bizarre.


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    Watched the Pat Robinson video. Of course he is a complete jerk and so was the man who wrote the letter. What bothers me more is his co-host, a woman, who laughed it off. These people are so warped…


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    Beakerj, you are gospel forgiven.


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    @Kolya:

    “And as for sinful behaviour, where does he get that idea as well?”

    He seems to be assuming that Esther voluntarily participated in the beauty pageant out of vanity and the desire to lose her virginity in hopes of wowing the king. That’s from the link that was first put up to his post about why Esther is the hardest book to preach.

    He’s ignoring the historical fact that Esther would not have had a choice in the matter, and that the Bible never states one way or the other what her feelings were on the matter. We simply don’t know. Driscoll has presumed to fill in that blank in his blog post.


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    Arce 03:35~

    “The O-line or offensive line in American football consists of five men, usually six feet tall and 280-350 pounds apiece. On passing plays, to stay between the D(efensive) Linemen (usually 4) and the quarterback (usually not a terribly big guy) and keep him from being smashed to the ground or worse. On running plays, to create a path by pushing the D-linemen away from the target “hole” for the running back to get through.

    To say that a woman should be considered for the O-line is to suggest that she is overweight and very big. Generally considered an insult of magnitude that it may result in a man being kneed or kicked in his manhood, or worse.”

    Yes–my football coach husband got it right away and shook his head at the insensitivity.

    Thanks for the sanity in your comment. To say it was a tweet declaring that a woman could do the job as well as a man is a half truth. It is a statement about one’s size. At any rate, an unkind tweet, not unlike his latest.


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    Esther always makes me think of this article I read 12 years ago. Can’t believe I found it.


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    Diane/Arce
    These same “gospel” men would decry racism. Yet, many are like their kingly mentor, Mark Driscoll, who makes potshots at women. They don’t dress nice enough or look good enough or whatever. His wife had the audacity to cut her hair and Driscoll practically had a seizure.

    These boys are demeaning, insensitive, and do not demonstrate any knowledge of the gospel of our Lord. Let’s see- do you remember Jesus laughing at how someone looks? Also, if I were a member of his church, I would be uncomfortable. In fact, if any of you are reading this-he might not like people who might be a tad overweight or who don’t fit his ideal so get on the stick and start “looking nice” for your pastor.


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    Stormy,

    Jerk is right.

    I am really very upset he said this. Does he not realize there is a great effort to take America for Islam and bring it under Sharia, which would make women’s rights — as well as many women, and Christians for that matter — a thing of the past?

    I honestly do not think I have ever in my life heard of any Christian ever, since the 600s, say anyone should become a Muslim. And to do so for the purpose of beating your wife is just beyond words.


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    And Saudi Arabia no less!!!!!!!


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    Southwester Discomfort

    I was startled at the kids in a Christian school in Dallas. They called each other horrible names and bullied children, literally hitting them. They laughed at one girl who got her backpack from Target or who wore the “incorrect” athletic shoe.

    But, the problem wasn’t them. It was the mothers and fathers who smiled benignly, pretending they didn’t hear the insults because they wanted their kids to be popular and be invited to the next “over the top” birthday party.

    Rich Christian schools can be a toxic environment.


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    anonymous/Stormy

    Pat Robertson is a nut job and has been for many years. He is a disgrace and Christians who send him money are complicit in this perversion of the faith.


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    Julie Anne,

    Thanks for sharing Jared’s “mature” Tweet: as follows:

    Isaiah 51:7. Why I ain’t stuttin’ internet nitpickers.

    I had to look up stuttin’ because I don’t use slang.  It means “to have no concern with”.

    What a terrific role model 🙁  No wonder the Calvinistas are being characterized as arrogant, among other descriptors.   How ‘missional’ of Jared…


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    Anon, My personal opinion of him is that he is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He leads people astray by his false and twisted doctrine. That is why things like this come out of his mouth. He is actually doing people a favor by continualy exposing himself for what he truly is.


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    My guess is that stuttin’ is a Black English approximation of “studying”. Have heard “I’m not studying you” all my life.

    Charming.


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    Dee and Stormy,

    I actually don’t know much about him. I know his name and that he is always getting himself in trouble one way or another. This is the first thing I think I’ve ever actually heard come directly from him and now I have a very bad headache.

    Maybe that would go away if I stopped hitting the wall with it.


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    @ Dee~

    I just now found out what stuttin’ means thanks to a good friend of mine and the urban dictionary. I must get my gospel self up to gospel speed with this pastoral gospel slang.


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    anonymous

    You should see my passport photo I had taken for today. I look like I have been beating my face against a wall!


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    Diane, Laura, Stormy

    All cool dude gospel pastors study the latest slang from the urban dictionary to “prove” they are gospel cool. Imagine that! He knows what gospel “stuttin” is. I think he should find out if urban guys also insult Queen Latifah. Bet she could let him know how much she appreciated his cool lingo.

    It’s called an apology-that’s right. That’s the cool word I was reaching for…


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    I wonder, does he use words like stuttin’ with his congregation? In bible studies? In sermons? Or is he a different person on Sundays?


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    I am gospel angry that Driscoll is messing with the gospel Esther who was gospel strong and gospel feminine and as a result her gospel people got to gospel defend themselves against the ungospel attack by their enemies.

    And that’s the gospel gospel truth.


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    I am gospel angry that Jared abused the gospel football reference to insult the gospel lady who had just gospel sang the gospel National gospel Anthem before the gospel football gospel game.


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    “Bet she could let him know how much she appreciated his cool lingo.”

    Oh, I bet she COULD!

    I will say that I have worked around lots of black people all my life, and have inevitably picked up some black English, which sounds really funny in my white voice. I never use it on purpose because I’m afraid someone will think I’m making fun of them but it slips out. Fortunately, my friends give me the benefit of the doubt when it does. See that word “friends”? I doubt he and Queen Latifah are cool like that.


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    Mark is a pretender. He’s another wolf.


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    @Anonymous @ 3:06 p.m.: I’m not sure how I missed your comment at my last visit, but ugh! That Pat Robertson clip is horrifying.

    Can’t get your wife to listen to you? Become a Muslim and BEAT HER! Wow, Pat, thanks! That solves everything! And apparently he’s some sort of telepath, being able to deduce (with hardly any information) that she was a rebellious child who tried to slap her father!

    I feel sick to my stomach.


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    I have a thought. I may start a new feature of TWW called Jared’s Corner. In this particular area, we will teach Jared and ourselves all the new slang relevant to the situation.

    The Jared Word of the Day is “SOZ” meaning “sorry.” Example,”See how much easier it is to say you are “soz” when no one understands what the heck you are saying???”


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    Mark Driscoll is worse than a pretender. He is reprobate. I am including the last 8-9 years of vile behavior and twisted teaching that has gone on. That anyone take him seriously concerns me greatly. As far as I am concerned he did implode and most people excused it away. There has been so much evidence from his mouth and actions (even a book blaming his wife) it cannot be ignored. I think one reason it did not ruin him is that the whole Reformed movement has become so nasty and arrogant it is dumbing down our senses and we are becoming desensitized to it. That is why Jared feels comfortable tweeting what he does. And why they feel comfortable with guys like Doug Wilson.


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    Eagle – you put into words what I feel Mark Driscoll really thinks about women. The man is very sick.


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    Dee said:

    “It’s called an apology-that’s right. That’s the cool word I was reaching for…”

    Now you’ve gone and done it! Asked for that darned apology thingy! THAT propably won’t be coming anytime soon. Especially since you are now reduced to (because you have to be put down AND with Scripture to boot!) an “internet nitpicker” (be sure to add that to the many names you’ve been ascribed).

    Well, he’s wielding a sword but his heart might be far off 🙁


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    @ Kolya:

    “Hmm… admittedly whether under OT law she should have married him is a good question, yet the fact appears to be that Esther was placed in the position of queen to save her people from genocide.”

    Good point, but Esther was essentially forced to marry him. And yes, God certainly did make the best of the horrible position she was put in. As someone else has pointed out, the Bible doesn’t tell us what she thought about it. I used to get annoyed at modern “romanticizations” of Esther that make it out to be a love story between her and Xerxes, but now Mark Driscoll has taken the cake. He’s read just as much (if not more) into the book than the romantic versions.


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    Deila: thank gospel goodness. In fact this whole thread has become full of gospelly goodness & I don’t know about you, but I’m feeling holier already.This following Jesus stuff is a doddle!


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    Leila…your name is Leila…sorry I was so carried away with the sheer gospeliciousness of what I was saying I forgot to pay attention to you, the human being.


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    Searching,

    It was in moderation for a bit because I put 2 links in.

    Isn’t that amazing? How does this man sleep at night?


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    I mean isn’t the video amazing, not the moderation. Heh. 🙂


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    sorry I was so carried away with the sheer gospeliciousness of what I was saying I forgot to pay attention to you, the human being.

    Beaker,

    You are on a roll! A gospel roll! My headache is better now, thanks to you, you gospelly, doddley thing, you. 🙂

    (I have no idea what doddle means, you understand…but I assume it’s gospelicious!)


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    By the way~

    Stuttin’ — gospel definition —

    “Not worried or bothered by another person, their actions, or their property.” (Urban dictionary definition number 1)

    It means one is not worried and/or not bothered by someone. So if you say- I ain’t stuttin’, aren’t you actually saying, I ain’t (not worried or bothered) by internet nitpickers? And, if you are NOT “not worried or bothered”, then it means you really are worried or bothered. Now I am worried I don’t understand gospel-driven slang.

    Ephesians 5:4
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    “4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving”

    Pastors could/should read this before tweeting-we all should:
    http://5ptsalt.com/2009/12/11/coarse-jesting/

    I am left wondering about the lack of depth I see: lack of depth of insight into how words about one’s physical appearance can hurt; lack of depth of maturity regarding treating others as one would want to be treated; lack of depth of understanding about how an elder must be temperate-sober minded; lack of depth of perception about how elders are supposed to be a positive example of behavior for us to imitate and honor.

    “He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.” Titus 1:7-8

    “…temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable,” 1Tim 3:2

    “Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.” Phil 2:3

    What will a book about “Gospel Deeps” have to teach me? I think perhaps wading in some gospel shallows would be helpful first.


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    BTW, I know it probaby wasn’t meant in a nice way when it was said, but “O Glorious Wenches ” is cool. (To quote the most recent incarnation of The Doctor.)


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    “I am left wondering about the lack of depth I see: lack of depth of insight into how words about one’s physical appearance can hurt; lack of depth of maturity regarding treating others as one would want to be treated; lack of depth of understanding about how an elder must be temperate-sober minded; lack of depth of perception about how elders are supposed to be a positive example of behavior for us to imitate and honor.”

    Diane, You have just described the problem with the majority of the YRR/NC movement.

    I have come to believe the only thing that will really change them is when the money dries up as people refuse to pay them to insult people and be arrogant. Let us hope folks are not so desensitized that it does not happen and they end up just creating more and more coarse shallow followers.


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    I have a thought. I may start a new feature of TWW called Jared’s Corner. In this particular area, we will teach Jared and ourselves all the new slang relevant to the situation.

    The Jared Word of the Day is “SOZ” meaning “sorry.” Example,”See how much easier it is to say you are “soz” when no one understands what the heck you are saying???”

    Why don’t we teach him some grown up words?


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    John,

    Your description was spot on! The systems are all controlled by the personalities, as far as I can see. Mess with one of their personalities and all hell breaks loose! Or it doesn’t and the system protects the personality, like has happened with CJ Maheney. All the fearless leaders who have NOT spoken up about his wrongdoings, but are happy to smear the back benchers, because they don’t have much of a voice, has been illuminating to see.

    I have seen it up close and personally when a fellow in the group speaks up and says that things are not right. Suddenly he is argumentative and divisive. He is not “standing with” the team, he is rocking the pastoral “support group”. And when he does not bow before the system, he is pushed out of it. Or, the other guys are supposed to push him out for the head guy. It is sordid! But seeing the authoritarian and abusive systems for what they are is worth the pain of the process.

    “What you have experienced is pretty typical of authoritarian personalities and systems. They do well when among their own group where their rules are obeyed and everyone is acceptable because they conform. Get them outside of that small world, though in a venue where there are real questions and criticisms, and they become defensive and often nasty. The impetus is to protect the authoritarian system, even to the extent that it overrules the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. In reality, the neighborhood is pretty shrunken and carefully defined. If you are outside it, you are fair game. Seen this in action with some family members who have gotten heavily involved in such a system. The contrast between how they treat those who are “in” and those who are “out” is like night and day.”


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    Juniper

    O Glorious wenches has made us laugh throughout the years.


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    I’d just like to note for the anonymous person here that there is no effort to bring “Sharia law” into the USA. It would have to get through our legislatures first, and that’s not happening. (It would take a three-year law school education to understand why Sharia law wouldn’t make it here in the USA.)

    What you may see happening are Muslims asserting they have the same rights as Christians. You may not like that, but in a country where the government cannot, as a matter of the Constitution, privilege one religion over another, this is going to happen.

    If you have an actual, real, live example of where Sharia law is in place, please give me a link to a judicial ruling, a legal statute or (last) a news article. What I imagine has happened is that someone is unhappy because Christians aren’t being treated like special snowflakes under the law. That, however is NOT bringing “Sharia law” into government.

    I could go on and point out that one of the two political parties wants to enact right-wing Christian religious beliefs into law, but I want to keep the conversation civil. So I will just zip my lip and wait for those examples of “Sharia law.”


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    @ Eagle – I agree with you on the undertones in Driscoll’s comments and writings. I sincerely hope he’s never called for jury duty on a rape trial, because I can see him blaming the victim and using the ‘she obviously asked for it’ line.


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    Eagle, I just had a conversation online with a couple of very liberal guy friends and they both told me bluntly they believe there are some right-wing men who simply hate and loathe women. One of them said, “They want women dead.” And then I read what you said about Driscoll. Ugh. I’m now feeling really sick to my stomach.


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    Southwestern, thank you for that great comment on sharia vs. reality. Now I don’t have to feel like I need to take that one on! 🙂


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    Two Christians may enter into a contract with one of the terms being that they agree to resolve disputes before a panel of pastors applying Biblical concepts. That is a contract enforceable in court and the court would order the parties to select and have their case resolved in that manner.

    Two Muslims may enter into a contract with one of the terms of the contract being that they agree that any dispute between them may be resolved by sharia. In this case, it means a panel of Muslim men who apply Islamic concepts of justice and fairness. A court would generally say that if that is the agreed upon means of resolving their business dispute, they must so resolve their dispute.

    Neither is a case of a court imposing religious law on a party, but a court enforcing an agreement freely entered into by the parties as to the process for resolving their dispute. But the court would, of necessity, refer to either Biblical or Sharia law in writing its order in the appropriate case.


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    Anonymous and Stormy,

    Pat Robertson makes me so angry. I just recently saw a video clip where he bashes adoption of foreign children and says “that’s what orphanages are for – take care of them over there but don’t bring them here!” (Not an exact quote).

    Jesus said that true religion is to care for the widows and orphans – I take that to mean anyone who is helpless. If he advocates just the opposite (BEATING a wife who is helpless against her husband’s strength, and letting orphans in the orphanages which often are horrible living conditions) – then what does that make him?


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    I once tried to start a blog keeping track of how comps/patris bash female Bible characters. Bathsheba and Abigail are on their list of women who have sinned. Now Driscoll has added Esther to that list.

    Btw, the working title for that blog was “Why This attack?” Because these men need to be asked why they have such a sinful drive to attack women and hold women responsible for sins that the Bible never mentions.


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    @ Eagle – I agree with you on the undertones in Driscoll’s comments and writings. I sincerely hope he’s never called for jury duty on a rape trial, because I can see him blaming the victim and using the ‘she obviously asked for it’ line. — Pam

    If he were called up for jury duty on a rape case, he’d never get that far. The prosecutor would reject him during jury selection.

    wo Muslims may enter into a contract with one of the terms of the contract being that they agree that any dispute between them may be resolved by sharia. In this case, it means a panel of Muslim men who apply Islamic concepts of justice and fairness. A court would generally say that if that is the agreed upon means of resolving their business dispute, they must so resolve their dispute. — An Attorney

    The only “Shari’a in America” case I heard of was just that — a CIVIL case, a contract dispute between two Saudi nationals whose contract specified it was to be adjudicated under Shari’a — specifically, Saudi law. The judge hearing the case contacted the Saudi Consulate and consulted with the Islamic Legal Scholars recommended. Again, this was a CIVIL case, not a criminal one.

    Eagle, I just had a conversation online with a couple of very liberal guy friends and they both told me bluntly they believe there are some right-wing men who simply hate and loathe women. One of them said, “They want women dead.” And then I read what you said about Driscoll. — SW Discomfort

    There’s a reason I call the YRR and Reconstructionists (and there is a lot of overlap) the “Handmaid’s Tale For Real Guys.” And Driscoll DOES have the Godly(TM) attitude towards women you’d expect from a Holy Commander of Gilead.

    And re Pat Robertson: Some years ago when he was shooting off his mouth about something, one blog commenter claimed PR was showing the same behavior symptoms as one of his bosses had shortly before said boss was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. It’s probable that his mind is going or gone, but being the autocratic Big Name CELEBRITY ManoGawd, there’s no way to make him step down.


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    @ An Attorney:

    “Two Muslims may enter into a contract with one of the terms of the contract being that they agree that any dispute between them may be resolved by sharia. In this case, it means a panel of Muslim men who apply Islamic concepts of justice and fairness. A court would generally say that if that is the agreed upon means of resolving their business dispute, they must so resolve their dispute.”

    I assume this would only apply in situations that fell short of actual crime, as HUG mentioned (civil cases vs. criminal)?


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    I’d hate to see how Driscoll preached through Ruth (he mentioned he had in the Esther article), given the linguistic kerfuffle over what “uncover his feet” means…


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    Hester, he took that in the most literalistic way possible. His explanation was something on the order of “She did not cross the line [into sexual activity/immorality] but she danced on it vigorously.” That’s the closest I can recall to the wording he used.

    Driscoll’s taught from Ruth twice, once in 2005 when he kicked off a singles ministry and then he recycled a lot of material in 2007.


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    I listened to one of his series on Ruth. He turned it into the dating game.


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    twice, in fact.


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    A friend gave me a copy of his Ruth sermons on cd a few years ago, but I never got around to listening to it. Really glad I didn’t.


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    Dee,

    Please have a little more respect for my mother. She would never let me live in her basement. She rented out somebody else’s basement for me to live in. Now that we have that settled, have a nice day.

    Steve, a blogger.


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    ^and you eat CC’s, not Cheetos right?


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    Well … the first and last sermons in Ruth were actually decent. You’d want to skip all the junk in the middle full of “Who’s your daddy?” jokes.


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    This one is a little more problematic than a contract dispute between two men. And it’s not so easy as finding a panel of experts in Sharia.

    Will Calls for Distribution “According to Islamic Laws and Sharia”; Pennsylvania Court Gives Twice as Much to Each Son as to Each Daughter

    I mean, the headline reads like the Onion, doesn’t it? Wish it was.


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    Enforcement of contract is a civil matter, not a criminal matter, except in the possible case of an abusive contract taking illegal advantage of a consumer. In that case, the government intervenes in the form of the U.S. Attorney or District Attorney (State’s Attorney) and there is a criminal prosecution under U.S. or State law. BTW Islamic law is very tough on interest rates, basically barring the collection of interest, so it is unlikely that a contract between two Muslims would be abusive.


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    An attorney – you say “Islamic law is very tough on interest rates, basically barring the collection of interest, so it is unlikely that a contract between two Muslims would be abusive.”

    Abusive contracts always, or almost always, have to do with interest rates? Really?


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    Generally, that is the most common abusive consumer contract, providing for an escalating interest rate that is considered usurious under law.


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    Your not giving Dricsoll the credit he deserves! The man is an artist and extremely skilled at what he does! We have all seen a verse used to justify something, gospel you know, that once put in context negates the gospel previously stated. What Driscoll has done is changed the entire context, so everything now fits as he wants. Genius really, he has managed to not let the facts influence his opinion in any way, truly genius.


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    I agree with Anonymous. The Al Mohler tweet is amusing (if inappropriate), because it made him look ridiculous. Obviously, the server was being facetious and making fun of him and Mahaney. I agree that he shouldn’t have tweeted it. Guess he just couldn’t help himself.


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    Wendy,

    I’m not a Twitter expert, but I’m fairly sure it was Russell Moore who initiated the Tweet, which then appeared on Al Mohler’s Twitter feed.

    “RT @drmoore. C.J. Mahaney just asked our server what she would guess he, @almohler, and I do for a living. She guessed ‘exotic dancers.’”

    Notice, it’s C.J. Mahaney, Al Mohler, and “I”. Am I making a correct assumption? Nevertheless, the immaturity among the Calvinista crowd is astounding! I guess they’ve gotta look cool for their sycophants.


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    bobson

    I agree. He has also successfully manipulated some old men who run seminaries to endorse and prop him up. Deep down inside, perhaps they, too, wish they received pornovisions from God. Mohler was sure excited that someone said that he and Mahaney might be exotic dancers. “See, Mark, did you hear that? We are cool, just like you.”


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    Wendy

    They are all Mark Driscoll wannabes. They were so excited and couldn’t wait to tell us about the exotic dancers quip. Next, they will be trying to channel his pornovisions.


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    Laura

    As much as I deplore such mandates, I  see it all the time in plain old USA family feuds. Grandpa would get mad at daighter and leaves everything to daughter out of spite.Then the entire family gets into the battle and starts suing. Mankind is just plain depraved.


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    Steve

    Funny.She sounds most accomodating although I wonder why she does not want you in her basement…..

    I have had the opportunity to visit with a couple of bloggers that I met through this blog. Do you know what I carry to present to them when I meet them? Cheetos! It is now my calling card.

    In my sitation, I am the mother and the only things living in my basement area are things that are handled by my quarterly pest exterminator.


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    “the only things living in my basement area are things that are handled by my quarterly pest exterminator.”

    Can they do anything about the infestation at Mars Hill?


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    Dee, as the poster and commenters on the site I linked said, if the father had put in the will that the daughters would get half what the sons got, that would be fine. That happens every day. It’s what wills are for.

    In this case, the father only wrote “divide my assets per Sharia” and the Pennsylvania court had to decide that that meant the women would be discriminated against. It was brought out that Sharia prohibits wills being written on people’s deathbeds, probably because they are vulnerable to being pushed around or possibly not in their right minds, so per Sharia, any previous will should have stood instead of this one, hence the daughters being able to appeal. It’s pretty complicated and there are reasonable schools of thought that American courts should not be in a position to interpret Sharia law.

    If the father had said “Sharia law as intepreted by Imam X” that would even have been better.


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    Hester, he took that in the most literalistic way possible. His explanation was something on the order of “She did not cross the line [into sexual activity/immorality] but she danced on it vigorously.” That’s the closest I can recall to the wording he used. — WTH

    i.e. “Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores…”

    (Note: That originated as the punch line of a short & nasty comic strip about big-name comics artist Frank Miller — the guy who wrote the original 300 and Sin City. He has the rep of having an obsession about the subject.)

    Wendy

    They are all Mark Driscoll wannabes. They were so excited and couldn’t wait to tell us about the exotic dancers quip. Next, they will be trying to channel his pornovisions. — Dee

    Not hard to do. Just punch in the proper search string and watch what comes up. Over and over and over.


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    As much as I deplore such mandates, I see it all the time in plain old USA family feuds. Grandpa would get mad at daighter and leaves everything to daughter out of spite.Then the entire family gets into the battle and starts suing. Mankind is just plain depraved. — Dee

    “Rabbi, how shall I divide my father’s inheritance with my brothers?”

    “Who made me judge over you?”

    Remember that not even Christ wanted to step into an inheritance fight. I know why. I have been through one.


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    Eagle,

    Yeah, but I brought Hampton Farms peanuts from North Carolina while you were in the hospital  The are processed about 5 miles from our farm. 🙂


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    WTH –

    Maybe you can shed some light on this question. Does anyone at Mars Hill question, review, or bring concerns to MD about what he writes or preaches? It seems like the answer is “No,” but it’s possible I’m missing something.

    It just seems that anyone who has been around a small amout of good Scriptural interpretation would have serious problems listening to and/or reading alot of his teaching. Or, is it just his teaching and writing about women that is skewed?


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    @Bridget

    The problem with nondenominational churches like Mars Hill is that they are accountable to no one for their doctrines – they are established and run by a charismatic ‘minister’ who is the sole reason that congregants attend that church. Because of that, the ‘minister’ exercises complete authoritarian control over the church and, to the extent there is an governing board, they are made of up lackeys. Disagreement with the leader is not tolerated.


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    *snif* Being a Cheetos-eating basement dweller is one thing $cientology has never accused me (or anyone else) of being. “Religious bigot,” “pawn of psychiatry,” oh, I dunno, I’m sure there are other things, but not basement dweller. I feel cheated. On the other hand, I rather imagine the churchy types making these statements REALLY don’t want a band of die-hard protesters at their churches Sunday after Sunday after Sunday? Because that would be bringing the battle straight to them (says the veteran of many, many, many solo pickets of $cientology).


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    “Or, is it just his teaching and writing about women that is skewed?”

    I’ve heard some other nutty things from him as well, not just about women. I’m troubled by the fact that he claims to have clairvoyant “seeing” powers that let him view past events, when most descriptions of Biblical prophecy involve foreknowledge of future events, and the events usually involve more than one person’s personal life. Also he calls this the gift of discernment, if I’m not mistaken, and I really don’t think that word should be applied to that ability.

    I heard some kind of instructional manual for exorcisms from him, in which he laid out all these “rules” that you have to have for an exorcism or else the demon will bring all its friends into your office. These rules include certain things that you have to say to the demon. He also states that you have to talk to the head demon, the one who’s in charge. (Or what? the Exorcism won’t work? Jesus’ name won’t work if you’re accidentally talking to the wrong demon?) And he says that demons will often quickly reverse their order of command when you get down to the exorcism so that you aren’t talking to the one in charge anymore.

    There was also a troubling question in my mind over whether he was saying that believers could be possessed. I can’t remember his exact wording now, but something made me think that he was alleging that Christ-followers could become demon-possessed and need an exorcism. It was really very upsetting.

    I can’t say for sure what’s in Mark Driscoll’s heart, but I can say for sure that I question a LOT of what comes from his mouth, and it’s not just about women.


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    Dee and Deb,

    I read these words in Matthew 5 this morning and thought of you two (and the list of What the World is saying about TWW):

    “Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

    Rejoice, and be exceeding glad for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

    Ye are the salt of the earth…

    Ye are the light of the world…”

    Just wanted you to know that you are the first thing that popped into my head as I read that, thought it might be encouraging to hear. 🙂


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    @ Sad Observer:

    “I heard some kind of instructional manual for exorcisms from him, in which he laid out all these “rules” that you have to have for an exorcism or else the demon will bring all its friends into your office. These rules include certain things that you have to say to the demon. He also states that you have to talk to the head demon, the one who’s in charge. (Or what? the Exorcism won’t work? Jesus’ name won’t work if you’re accidentally talking to the wrong demon?) And he says that demons will often quickly reverse their order of command when you get down to the exorcism so that you aren’t talking to the one in charge anymore.

    There was also a troubling question in my mind over whether he was saying that believers could be possessed. I can’t remember his exact wording now, but something made me think that he was alleging that Christ-followers could become demon-possessed and need an exorcism. It was really very upsetting.”

    I’ll admit I’ve studied literally nothing about exorcisms, demonology, etc. because it creeps me out. But where are all these detailed exorcism rules in the Bible? How do we know that demons have a hierarchy anyway? All we really know is that Satan is the leader of the demons. All right, maybe you can argue that angels have a hierarchy therefore demons must too, but even the angelic hierarchy, as I understand it, is more derived from Catholic tradition than Scripture (something Driscoll would deplore in every other area). It seems pretty hard to derive such a detailed structure from only two or three named angels in the Bible and no named demons.

    As for believers being possessed – they can’t be, of course. But hey, if Paul Dohse is right and Neo-Calvinists really do deny the new birth, maybe they think believers CAN be possessed, since nothing actually changed when they got saved.


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    Hester and Searching (way up the page…)

    Grace wrote the section of their book where Esther is praised as “submissive wife” (RHE rightly notes that “in the actual story, male obsession with wifely submission is treated quite farcically!”. See Esther 1:22 and note that Esther disobeyed this edict among others).

    Mark apparently has a different take- Esther=loose sinner/slut

    I think we should pray that this series opens Grace’s eyes (since their perspectives are polar opposite). If she comes out of the “submissive wife” fog, she is in the best position to “help” her husband.

    And Dee. Your last sentence, yep, “shame on Grace”. This can be such bondage, but if she gets free of it, I believe there is hope for massive change in the right direction…


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    Regarding the tweeting drama, may we all think twice about doing things we would be ashamed of were they “exposed”. They are visible to GOD, even if we succeed in hiding them from everyone else… The greek word “hypocrisy” means “mask”.


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    Charis: “)If she comes out of the “submissive wife” fog, she is in the best position to “help” her husband.”

    Unless she (like many other comp wives) have the…..

    “Control Me” Syndrome

    “Control-Me” Syndrome describes a tendency that some people have to foster relationships with people who have a controlling narcissistic, antisocial or “acting-out” nature.

    http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/ControlMeSyndrome.html


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    Victorious,

    I would venture to guess that such insecurity about one’s own value and voice is common among females who have been sexually abused…
    which makes Esther’s heroism to defy her king/husband remarkable and inspiring. 🙂 May Grace see the Truth!

    When I was on my own “coming out of the fog” journey questioning comp doctrines, I did a bible search for “husband” “ruler” and “household” and this is what I found. Clearly not an example of “God’s Will and Plan for a satisfying, God-honoring, biblical, Christian marriage”!!!


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    Perhaps PT Anderson’s “The Master” (now on at Tiff – he’s one of the great living filmmakers) has tapped into the zeitgeist not only of Scientology and, as Richard Brody has pointed out, the era that it depicts, but of YRR/Reformed Christianity circa 2012 as well.

    http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/weinstein/themaster/


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    Jan, Thanks for your encouragement. You are so kind.


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    I happen to believe that Mark is correct that believers can have a demon in their flesh (not in their spirit). I don’t know about his correct ‘formula’ for keeping extra ones out of the office, but he may be right and he didn’t follow it right and that’s why he spews so many ‘doctrines of demons’ today.


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    Bridget,

    It’s been years since I’ve been there. I’m not sure how many people raised questions about Driscoll on many things. My understanding from people who have left in the last few years is that basically regardless of formalities if Driscoll says “jump” everyone else says “how high?” even if formally the people involved are “lead pastor” or fellow executive elders. This would seem to be as true of the new people as it was for various mini-Marks who have ascended the leadership ranks in the last fourteen years. It seems as though guys who have their own personalities don’t go the distance in the organization or don’t rise up the ladder very far.

    Driscoll has taught that while Christians can’t be owned by Satan they can sin in ways that let them be demonized. That may understandably seem like a distinction without a difference.

    Driscoll has claimed to get a lot from William Gurnall’s The Christian in Full Armour but the descriptions of how he approaches spiritual warfare sound more like Neil T. Anderson to me from what I can remember of his approach.


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    http://marshill.com/media/redeemingruth/gods-hand-in-our-redemption

    Here is Driscoll’s Ruth series. I watched the first 14 minutes of part 6: riddled with anachronisms, chauvinism, and all kinds of just plain strange stuff. He is very clever in that he weaves his strange and damaging views into the biblical narrative (no text reading here), thereby naturalizing his views. Or trying to.


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    At 19:28 of Part 6, we learn that Ruth was ‘probably sexually active’ before she met Boaz.


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    Apart from with her husband before he died? What the heck? Where in the world does that come from?


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    He’s seems to be implying she was sinfully sexually active. So this must be prior to her marriage. Not sure where he gets it from.


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    Wenatchee: “Driscoll has taught that while Christians can’t be owned by Satan they can sin in ways that let them be demonized. That may understandably seem like a distinction without a difference.”

    Patti: “I happen to believe that Mark is correct that believers can have a demon in their flesh (not in their spirit).”

    What does that even look like? I am inclined to agree with Wenatchee here. How does this flesh-only non-possession practically differ from a “real” spirit possession? The signs of possession/demonization in Scripture are very clear and quite violent. Does a “flesh-only” demonization have these same signs? If so, how is it any different from a “real” possession? And if not, are we sure we aren’t attributing to a demon what could just as easily be attributed to sin? Most people, even most Christians, do not need active demonic encouragement to fall into sin, so I get very leery when people start throwing around the word “demon” for behavioral problems which (always) fall short of the Scriptural signs of possession.


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    Off-topic alert, but I need this question answered. HUG and anyone else who participated in the Christian animism/Christian occultism/NAR discussion a few days ago, this one is for you.

    I just found out that someone I know practices “intercessory dance.” She’s gone to lots of weird charismatic churches (the kind with the “worship flags”). When I googled “intercessory dance,” the Elijah List website came up. I don’t know what the Elijah List is, but I remember it was mentioned in the comments here last week. Anybody know anything about intercessory dance and what the Elijah List is? And is the NAR involved (I’m betting yes)?

    And HUG – given your comments about Christian animism and setting wards outside of D.C., I thought you’d enjoy the following. It’s a group of kids performing an “intercessory rain dance” at “Signs & Wonders Camp.” Yep. A rain dance. At a Christian camp. Don’t you dare call them pagan, though. ; )

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fiag0zfw1Gs


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    @ Caleb:

    “At 19:28 of Part 6, we learn that Ruth was ‘probably sexually active’ before she met Boaz. He seems to be implying she was sinfully sexually active. So this must be prior to her marriage.”

    So much for Sola Scriptura. Does he even think Ruth was saved? Is that why the series is called “Reedeming Ruth”? Is it just that she was a Moabitess and therefore must have been a slut? Or is he trying to say that Boaz “saved” her (in some spiritual sense) by marrying her?

    On the other hand…you don’t think he’s trying to overcompensate for the fact that some pro-gay marriage Christians have pointed to Ruth and Naomi as an example of a deep, abiding same-sex friendship (ala David and Jonathan)? Is he trying to “prove” that Ruth was heterosexual? Although one would think that wouldn’t need to be proven, given the fact that she marries and has children with a man.


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    Laura

    Thank you for correcting me. Very confusing…


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    Jeff

    I wonder, could it be a termite problem? Something that affects the very foundation?


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    Jan

    How kind of you! I’ll take silly attempts fo persecution any day of the week over what the early Christians endured. This guy’s little attempt at cage fighting resulted in nothing but making him look like a middle school girl involved in a cat fight.


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    Charis

    Grace may be intimidated at home. She also has several kids to care about. She can’t even cut her without a tirade from Mark which is brodcast to the world. I can imagine what goes on at home.


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    Charis

    We are acutely aware that we are dealing in a public forum. That is why we have given permission to reprint our posts and tweets with attribution. We know anything we say can be suddenly flung far and wide.It surprised me that some of these young guys don’t get it.


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    WTH

    Perhaps Driscoll is making a personal confession that he is, as we say in the South, ‘flicted. He is holding out for the “devil made me do it” defense.


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    Hester

    I am truly amazed…


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    WTH,

    So did Driscoll get most of his ideas about exorcism and demonology from other theologians, then? Just wondering how much of his views on that are shaped by looking at scripture, or are they all collected bits and pieces from other thinkers?

    Not that I would necessarily poo-poo thinking from other people/theologians. Although the Bible speaks frequently of demon possession, it actually doesn’t go into tons of details about what exorcism looks like when mere humans (aka other than Jesus) are doing it.

    I’m just wondering, because Driscoll seems to be a strong proponent of sticking to sola scriptura on some topics (like the woman question), but on other topics, he seems to see a need to go beyond the Bible and spell out a lot of very specific things that the Bible never says. I wonder how he reconciles all that.


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    Dee

    “I wonder, could it be a termite problem? Something that affects the very foundation?”

    Or a snail problem? Something that leaves a slimey trail?


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    I remember a bag of Cheetos I once received from two kind, Christian blogging divas, and those Cheetos helped sustained me on a marathon drive from Southern Virginia to Philadelphia in which I was unable to stop the vehicle due to transmission problems. Those Cheetos may have saved my life. That’s what I think of when I think of Cheetos.


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    Hester – now, the “rain dance” bit is new to me, but def.*not* the rest.

    Does this person have their own personal “prayer flags”” as well? Or Native American-style “prayer fans”?

    Dee – welcome to the wacky world of charismania run amok. (i.e., the NAR/Third Wave set.) I could tell some stories that might curl Baptists’ hair, being that they’re cessationists and all.

    *

    Ruth – MD is just making sh*t up, I think. Seriously.


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    Sergius – I do not like Cheetos. My preferred poison: Gibbles Cheese Puffys (in both regular and white cheddar; not fond of jalapeno anything).

    And yeah, I know the name is a lot like the infamous “Cheesy Poofs” from South Park.

    However, I do *not* eat them when blogging, because I get crumbs all over my laptop’s touchpad. So… “Star Trek” and “Doc Martin” reruns (on Netflix) it is. 😉


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    Hester – people being married and having children with an opposite-sex spouse *does not necessarily* mean that said people are straight. I know quite a few LGBTQ people who were in those kinds of marriages.

    Now, I’m also NOT meaning to comment on Ruth and Naomi, or David and Jonathan, re. the above, since textual interpretation vis-a-vis contemporary views of human sexuality doesn’t work too well, imo. (And it all seems to come down to a “gay/straight” dichotomy in much of the gay community as well as in anti-gay circles – too simplistic, I think!)


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    @numo
    It’s been a while, but I have fond memories of the Gibble’s Cheese Puffys.

    Now I couldn’t help but notice the Wegman’s link. Are you from Philly?


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    Sergius – PA, yes; Philly – nope.


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    WTH and Jeff –

    Thanks for the responses. A fairly conservative pastor recommended a book by MD to out congregation a few months ago and I almost fell off my chair. I couldn’t imagine said pastor reading a book written by MD. I can’t imagine myself reading anything he has penned — just because he appears to (as Numo said) be “making ____ up.”

    Cheetos – BLAH! Can’t say I like them one bit.


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    And which of the many Pennsylvania Wegman’s stores do you shop at?

    BTW, my parents still live in the Philly area (West Chester) and Wegman’s is my mother’s religion.


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    Sergius said:

    “I remember a bag of Cheetos I once received from two kind, Christian blogging divas, and those Cheetos helped sustained me on a marathon drive from Southern Virginia to Philadelphia in which I was unable to stop the vehicle due to transmission problems. Those Cheetos may have saved my life. That’s what I think of when I think of Cheetos.”

    Yes, I remember that well.  So glad you made it safely. 🙂 

    That was the same day our blog went down. 🙁


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    An attorney,

    OK. I did some research. I see there are quite a lot of people who insist there is no Sharia law coming to America, and quite a lot who insist that there is. When I said they want to bring Sharia law here I wasn’t thinking of our courts per se because Sharia is their whole culture and not limited to the judicial system, but I found a number of sources which do address Sharia’s appearance in the legal system here.

    Here is a site of court cases listed as “relevant” or “highly relevant” on the issue of Sharia in the courts.

    http://shariahinamericancourts.com/

    This one is from an atheist who took a Muslim to court for assault, found himself in the courtroom of a Muslim judge, and had some very interesting things to say about that. He gives the audio of the trial. The judge dismissed the case saying what happened did not fulfill the requirements to be judged assault. I’m not sure if the judge’s reasons for dismissing the case were lawful or not, but he, as well as the defendant’s attorney, sited the man’s foreign origin and Muslim background as grounds for why he should be excused for his actions. The judge made sure to point out that in Muslim countries the plaintiff would have been killed for what he did. That sounded to me like the judge was implying he got off lucky as he was only assaulted in the manner he was and nothing worse was done to him. The judge said the plaintiff went way beyond his free speech rights (I agree what the plaintiff did was tasteless). It seems at least slanted to excuse the Muslim for doing something I’m pretty sure no one else could get away with.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Sv9IyrpOnbs#!

    As for Sharia only being in civil court, the following case does not make me feel better about that. This one is a Muslim woman who tried to get a restraining order against her Muslim husband who repeatedly raped and beat her. It was denied because he was only following his beliefs. That decision was overturned in appellate court, thankfully, but this is highly disturbing.

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/sharia-in-new-jersey-muslim-husband-rapes-wife-judge-sees-no-sexual-assault-because-husbands-religio.html

    It’s further elaborated on here:

    http://tinyurl.com/22tbdpw

    More along the lines of what I was thinking originally, here are some videos with Muslim clerics talking about their desires for Sharia. In the first one says the Muslims want to “govern themselves” under Sharia, so there would then be 2 law systems, which I would think would mean they want to be in America as Americans, but not governed by American law:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTb2L-LwRWA&feature=related

    But this one has a cleric who says Sharia is for everyone:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJCCQ3bsZLc

    Finally, here’s one with the Mayor of Dearborn, Michigan saying there is no Sharia in Dearborn:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWk4Ce7iyIE&feature=related

    But apparently, as the video poster says, “For whatever reason, some Muslims [in Dearborn] didn’t get the memo” as this Muslim tells us that “Sharia is coming, baby!”. :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4ybdjOGGlys#!


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    Sergius – there’s one about 35 miles from me, so I have to make a special trip if I want something from it.


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    Mark does realize that Xerses was a PAGAN,right?


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    I think that he things Artaxexes was a DUDE. 😉 (not really j/k, though.)


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    A few people have mentioned Driscoll having a hissy fit when his wife cut her hair? Does Driscoll subscribe to there being dress codes of what is acceptable for men and women?


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    @ Numo:

    I haven’t ever seen any prayer flags at her house and I’ve never heard of prayer fans. But then again, I’d never heard of intercessory dance until last week either. I think she’s more the wear-a-white-dress-and-garland-and-play-a-tambourine-while-twirling type. What kills me about the intercessory dance thing is they seem to think that what they’re doing is related to ancient Hebrew dancing, but what I’ve seen is much more like modern dance/interpretive dance/choreography than anything else.

    On a lighter but related note, you might like this:
    “What is that? Is that a javelin? Is that a worship javelin? Put the javelin down!”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChZlxCYshv0


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    @ Pam:

    I think it was more about the fact that he likes long hair, and Grace should have “known better” than to be so “selfish” and take away the thing he liked.


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    I’m going to study this Esther thing more – look into the Hebrew words describing some key actions. Tried to find some online commentaries earlier. If she really was as big of a slut as Driscoll claims, then Matthew Henry and John Gill seem to have missed it.


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    Also: I think Wade should do a series of responses to Driscoll’s upcoming Esther series.


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    @ Hester,

    In Australia, Driscoll would be called a sooky sooky la la for whingeing about something as stupid as his wife getting a hair cut that wasn’t his favourite.


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    Anon 1-

    And the Israelites were a captive people in bondage to this Pagan ruler! And they didn’t have much choice in anything!


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    Wegmans?? The finest supermarket known to mankind. I used to shop at the one in Rochester, NY. Rumors are flying in NC that Wegmans is considering the Raleigh area. Make it so!!!Please….


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    I once listened to all 4 of Driscoll’s teachings to his pastoral staff on dealing with demons. Spooky stuff.


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    Dee, I lived in Rochester, NY for 27 yrs. before moving to Florida. Wegman’s was the place to shop for sure!


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    I’ve heard some other nutty things from him as well, not just about women. I’m troubled by the fact that he claims to have clairvoyant “seeing” powers that let him view past events, when most descriptions of Biblical prophecy involve foreknowledge of future events, and the events usually involve more than one person’s personal life. — Sad Observer

    Deb & Dee call it “Pornovision”, because all these “seeing” powers (or should we call it “Scrying”?) of past or present events all have a Juicy or Kinky sexual content.

    My personal opinion is that these “visions” are an acceptable “Godly” way for him to air his sexual fantasies and obsessions.

    I heard some kind of instructional manual for exorcisms from him, in which he laid out all these “rules” that you have to have for an exorcism or else the demon will bring all its friends into your office. These rules include certain things that you have to say to the demon. He also states that you have to talk to the head demon, the one who’s in charge. (Or what? the Exorcism won’t work? Jesus’ name won’t work if you’re accidentally talking to the wrong demon?) And he says that demons will often quickly reverse their order of command when you get down to the exorcism so that you aren’t talking to the one in charge anymore. — Sad Observer

    This sounds a lot like Magick to me — specifically, “Karcism” or classic Black Magic, which is centered around summoning, addressing, and binding demons or spirits. I think a lot of “spiritual warrior” and “discernment” types are practicing what the blogger at the now-defunct “Onward, Forward, Toward” site called “Charismatic Witchcraft.”

    The basic difference between religion and magic is that with magic, the mortal sorcerer is the one in control of the spiritual beings and/or forces.

    I just found out that someone I know practices “intercessory dance.” She’s gone to lots of weird charismatic churches (the kind with the “worship flags”). When I googled “intercessory dance,” the Elijah List website came up. I don’t know what the Elijah List is, but I remember it was mentioned in the comments here last week. Anybody know anything about intercessory dance and what the Elijah List is? — Hester

    I have heard of Liturgical Dance, but “Intercessory Dance” is a new one on me. As for the Elijah List, I first heard about it from “Onward, Forward, Toward”. From the way he described it, it is some sort of association of real flake Charismatics and Spiritual Warfare types, always claiming visions and prophecies and demon-fighting, you name it. I think they were the origin of the terms “Charismania” and “Charismatic Witchcraft”.

    And HUG – given your comments about Christian animism and setting wards outside of D.C., I thought you’d enjoy the following. It’s a group of kids performing an “intercessory rain dance” at “Signs & Wonders Camp.” Yep. A rain dance. At a Christian camp. — Hester

    All I have to say about that one is this link.

    Mark does realize that Xerses was a PAGAN,right? — Anon1

    I think that he things Artaxexes was a DUDE. — Numo

    Somebody better screen the movie 300 for him, pointing out a certain Xerxes — Padishah, Shahanshah, Shah of Iran and not-Iran.

    A few people have mentioned Driscoll having a hissy fit when his wife cut her hair? Does Driscoll subscribe to there being dress codes of what is acceptable for men and women? — Pam

    Probably. Sounds like something a control freak would like.


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    Hester, you asked what a believer’s demonization might look like.
    I believe that usually it was there before the person became a Christian. When we accept Jesus, it is our spirit that is born again. Our minds still need renewing. Our flesh is still part of this world. As Christians we have authority to overcome a demon whether outside of us or inside of us. That is the only practical difference I see between a believer and non believer. Sheer willpower for the non Christian. As far as scripture being clear that all demonization results in violence, I disagree. Satan entered Judas and he was still able to function. Some demons just yelled out things to Jesus or people. The Pharisees said that Jesus had a demon. If all demonization was violent, they would have known that statement would have been too ridiculous to use against Him. A believer that has a demon in his/her life somewhere has no excuse for the sinfulness that that demon might be trying to influence them to do or say. But if a demon manifests violently like many did when Jesus was commanding them out, and many still do today when confronted, why would we have to accuse that person of being an unbeliever if otherwise known to be. Shaking and convulsing is not sin. Several NT passages record that Jesus or His disciples healed people and cast out demons. Why do we think that those who were sick could already have been saved but not the demonized. Although I have experience with this subject, I still prefer to debate over it with scripture. When it all comes down to it I don’t think it really matters if we think a person isn’t a Christian if he manifests a demon. If someone requires one to pray some sort of sinners prayer again after God has just set him free from a demon? That’s ‘small potatoes’ compared to the gratefulness to God he has for the deliverance. He shouldn’t care if people thought he was unsaved before or after.


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    I realized yesterday that when I was told the Esther story in Sunday School, I somehow got the idea that Mordecai told her to go to the palace with the other girls – which would be a pretty weird thing for him to do if he was bringing her up to be his wife (as some Rabbinic tradition holds). There is a vs. where it says she obeyed Mordecai even after she became queen (2:20), so if he did tell her to go, she probably would have. Any thoughts on this? Is this even an accepted interpretation or just the mistake of a 9-year-old mind?

    Reread the whole book yesterday and still can’t find anything that would indicate Mordecai and Esther were “lukewarm” or only nominally Jewish. This seems to be Driscoll’s unique idea. Also, Mordecai refuses to bow to Haman in ch. 3, which could very well be because of his religion. I can’t see any other reason he would do that, as there’s nothing to indicate he had previous personal issues with Haman. One would think a “lukewarm” Jew wouldn’t care.

    Also, apparently Esther and Mordecai are considered prophets in Judaism. The feast of Purim was first celebrated during the time of the second temple (~2000 yrs ago), so I suppose it’s entirely possible that Jesus celebrated Purim.

    Interesting tidbits from Matthew Henry indicate that maybe there has always been a minority of Christians who thought Esther sinned (though I doubt any of them painted her quite as dismally as Driscoll). Henry summarily demolishes them:

    “It is certain, as bishop Patrick says, that those who suggest she committed a great sin to come at this dignity [marrying the king] do not consider the custom of those times and countries. Everyone that the king took to his bed was married to him, and was his wife of a lower rank, as Hagar was Abraham’s; so that, if Esther had not been made queen, the sons of Jacob need not say that he dealt with their sister as a harlot.”

    It was actually benevolent of Xerxes to keep the girls who didn’t “make the cut” around as concubines – having lost their virginity, they were no longer “marriage material” and would have been a burden to their families if he had let them go, since they had no means to provide for themselves, whereas at the palace they were assured a decent life.


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    Here in Texas, the best grocery is HEB, founded by the Butt family. One of the scions of that family was an evangelist in the post WWII student-led revival movement that started at Baylor and a couple of other religiously oriented colleges and spread across the country. He later founded a Christian retreat center in the Hill Country where to get there you have to drive up the river bed or wade to get in.


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    Oops. Thanks for the correction, Deb. I don’t twitter or tweet, so it’s a little confusing. 🙂

    So it was Russell Moore who made himself look ridiculous. The tweet is amusing because the server was making fun of them. Does he like being made fun of, or did he take that as a serious compliment?

    Dee, the Twitter thing with Jared Wilson… sorry you had to go through that nonsense. What he did was pure retaliation. Not only would he not apologize or back down, but he went after you for challenging his “authority” and his attempt at sounding like a cool dude (which, IMO, was racist and misogynistic). Epic fail.


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    @Hester

    He’s certainly overcompensating because of the culture wars – he goes on to say that the only way to be fulfilled and happy is to be married, settle down, and “make babies.” This is what Ruth did (there is a sense in which she is ‘redeemed’ through marriage and childbirth, though he never says that explicitly) and it is God’s plan for all men and women – sorry single people, childless people, and anyone else not marrying and ‘making babies.’ Ruth came to know God, Mark says, and then becomes happy only in the context of family life.


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    Hester, I also got the same notion from somewhere about Esther when I was a kid. I did an in depth Bible Study on it a few years back, can’t remember if it was Beth Moore or Kay Arthur, or ? Which changed that view for me. But before I posted on FB about it yesterday I reread it again and I see what you see, too.


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    I am wondering if Mark Driscoll thinks that Sarah sinned by joining a king’s harem also. Or would he say that she was just following her lord husband Abraham.


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    @ Hester & Patti,

    It’s amazing what one can come up with while approaching Scripture. It’s called presupposition. The trick is to get your followers to bring ONLY WHAT YOU PRESUPPOSE to the game, never this, not that, and certainly not the other. Who cares whether or not Esther was sexually pure? How does that impact the narrative other than an incidental bit (imposed on the narrative) that has no bearing on what Esther did in saving her people from genocide?


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    And as for Wilson and any other testosterone-laced cretins who have dissed Queen Latifah, they wouldn’t know how to handle a real woman anyway. They’d do better with a genetically engineered barbi-replicant designed to cater to their narrow little needs.


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    Muff Potter – you made me laugh 🙂 🙂 🙂


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    @ Muff:

    “Who cares whether or not Esther was sexually pure? How does that impact the narrative other than an incidental bit (imposed on the narrative) that has no bearing on what Esther did in saving her people from genocide?”

    You are correct – it certainly would not be the first time God used a sexual sinner (David comes to mind here). I still think it’s worth looking into Driscoll’s reasoning, though, esp. when he paints her in such unsavory terms that are so far removed from the traditional view. He spoke so badly of her (at least in that introduction) that some people might come away viewing her as some kind of “sub-heroine” – at best a salvage job, certainly not measuring up to the “pure” Biblical figures like Daniel, Elijah, etc. In fact Driscoll himself actually did this by saying a comparison to Daniel was overblown.


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    @Dave AA

    I am sure Jared Wilson would be including himself in that list of what Pharisees do.

    We are all in the list, if we are honest with ourselves.

    But in case he isn’t thinking of himself, I could easily remind him of some recent tweets and comments for his first example.


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    I’m tempted to comment on Wilson’s post that sometimes we do need correction – even Peter was rebuked when he stopped eating with gentiles.


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    Diane and Pam,
    It’s possible that someone might have already reminded him, about an hour prior to the Pharisees post, by attempting to comment on yesterday’s Fear and Trembling post (Asking him to walk that talk). I’ve heard rumors that such comments just might not make it out of moderation, still hit home.


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    Dave AA said: “Wilson has posted his response, “What do the Pharisees do?””

    And yet, Wilson sure does talk a good game. From his post a couple of days ago:
    http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/2012/09/11/stay-messy-my-friends/?comments#comments

    “you do not want a stable of yes-men. Open yourself to hard questions, challenges, conflicts in opinions, loving rebukes, and constructive criticism. People who only tell you what you want to hear are not your friends and are doing you harm. And if you intentionally surround yourself with people who are afraid to tell you the truth because of your self-defensiveness or your verbal or occupational retaliation, you’re not a friend to them, but a self-righteous guy afraid of the repentance that leads to growth in Christ. Cultivate a climate of transparency and honesty in your friendships and ministry circles, and you will see the gospel spread more dominantly within them.”

    Will the real Jared Wilson please stand up?


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    “Cultivate a climate of transparency and honesty in your friendships and ministry circles, and you will see the Gospel spread more dominately in them.”

    Are all these people unredeemed? How can the Gospel be “more” dominate in them? (This is what Paul Dohse is talking about.) This also sounds like a formula to produce something. He needs to be honest and transparent because he is redeamed and is being sanctified. The lost (not his friends and ministry circles) will see and want to know why he is different. He is just teaching to his choir.


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    should be “dominant”


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    What an excellent article for pastors and those in leadership to read and take to heart:

    The Dangerous Pursuit of Pastoral Fame:

    “Some signs you might be in danger:

    You look at the speaker roster for a conference and think, Why did he/she get an invite and not me? (me–or why is his book promoted and not mine.)

    You feel jealous of others because of the size or scope of their ministry. (me–I could add-speaking engagements, top conference invites, interviews, and book writing)

    You begin to dream that somehow “hitting it big” (or even hitting it medium) will free you from ministry, or you begin to resent the small, mundane and unnoticed tasks of local church ministry.

    You regularly Google yourself (please, no jokes in the comments.)

    Your face appears on the front page of your church’s website.

    You become a “friend collector” who racks up the Facebook/Twitter followers with the idea that someday, you’ll be able to leverage that when you write that book you’ve been talking about writing forever. (me–or those several, several books…)

    You find yourself thinking more and more about how you can get your name “out there.””

    http://www.outofur.com/archives/2012/02/the_dangerous_p_3.html


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    “Cultivate a climate of transparency and honesty in your friendships and ministry circles, and you will see the Gospel spread more dominately in them.”

    An alternative sentence might be:

    “Cultivate a climate of transparency and honesty in your friendships and ministry circles, and you can help each other avoid falling into serious error (like an affair with a sixteen-year-old girl).” Which is probably what he means. Sometimes jargon obfuscates.


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    Pam

    If you comment, be prepared to be without your email for a few hours. He will report you. Only people who agree with him are allowed to have a voice.


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    Leila

    He doesn't believe what he says. It is a means to an end.


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    Bridget

    It is merely a bunch of words to endear himself to a group of people who are formulaic. He is just another ho hum authoritarian preacher who inserts the word gospel every other word to “prove” he is one of the “in crowd”.


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    @ dee

    So be it. I’ve left a comment, although whether it sees the light of day remains to be seen. This is what I wrote:

    And sometimes rebuke is needed – even Paul rebuked Peter. If people raise concerns, we do need to listen and look and see if they are legitimate concerns. We need to examine ourselves as much as we examine others. Even ‘pharisees’ might be right some of the time!


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    Pam,
    Methinks JW has learned his lesson from the Shades of Grey kerfuffle: Don’t let the comments of those who rebuke you see the light of day! Just call them nitpickers or Pharisees.


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    Hmmm, I commented, but didn’t use the ‘g’ word…I may not get a hearing 🙂


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    Hmmmm, that article appears to have no coments…


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    Pam and Beakerj’s comments have been published and agreed to!
    My own comment was not– likely because I specifially accused some of his tweets tweets of not advancing the gospel, and being nonchalant.


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    It did get up! I did try and make sure my comment was as friendly and non-committal as possible, so it doesn’t look really like I’m agreeing or disagreeing too much, which probably helped.


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    Pam/ Dave
    Good attempts.
    Dave, listen for a knock on your door from the police.


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    Pam and beakerJ
    Good comment. I wonder if he sees what you are saying? Kind of funny!