Jared Wilson, a Gospel Coalition Blogger, Lauds Patriarch Doug Wilson, Then Apologizes

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her…"

Ephesians 5:25 (NASB)

The Conquerer Film (1956)

Given what has happened this week with Gospel Coalition blogger Jared Wilson, I have no doubt that God is sovereign.   First of all, how ironic that Jared published his post “The Polluted Waters of 50 Shades of Grey, etc.”, featuring Doug Wilson on Friday, July 13th.  Secondly, when Dee was writing her post last Monday (7/16), she simply wanted to demonstrate that several TGC bloggers have been promoting Doug Wilson of late.  She linked to the most recent one (Jared's) without having read the post!  Dee just wanted to show that Doug is gaining favor with The Gospel Coalition crowd.

I am pleased to say that some of our TWW readers actually click on the links we include in our posts.  When one of them read Dee's post and followed the link to Jared Wilson's post extolling Doug Wilson, she became upset.  Why?  Because Jared included this excerpt from Douglas Wilson's book Fidelity:  What It Means to be a One-Woman Man:

"Because we have forgotten the biblical concepts of true authority and submission, or more accurately, have rebelled against them, we have created a climate in which caricatures of authority and submission intrude upon our lives with violence.

When we quarrel with the way the world is, we find that the world has ways of getting back at us. In other words, however we try, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts. [emphasis mine] This is of course offensive to all egalitarians, and so our culture has rebelled against the concept of authority and submission in marriage. This means that we have sought to suppress the concepts of authority and submission as they relate to the marriage bed.

But we cannot make gravity disappear just because we dislike it, and in the same way we find that our banished authority and submission comes back to us in pathological forms. This is what lies behind sexual “bondage and submission games,” along with very common rape fantasies. Men dream of being rapists, and women find themselves wistfully reading novels in which someone ravishes the “soon to be made willing” heroine. Those who deny they have any need for water at all will soon find themselves lusting after polluted water, but water nonetheless.

True authority and true submission are therefore an erotic necessity. When authority is honored according to the word of God it serves and protects — and gives enormous pleasure. When it is denied, the result is not “no authority,” but an authority which devours."

After an exchange between Jared Wilson and some disgruntled commenters, Jared wrote this comment:  "Welcome, Wartburg Watch."  Well, I guess we're now on The Gospel Coalition watch list.  To be clear, neither Dee nor I encouraged ANYONE to post a comment in response to Jared's post.  The dialogue between these upset commenters and Jared became highly imflammatory with Jared claiming that he had been misunderstood.

If you clicked on the above link (Jared Wilson's post extolling Doug Wilson), it takes you to a post written by Rachel Held Evans, which we highly recommend.  Why are we not linking directly to Jared Wilson's post?  Because earlier today he finally decided to follow the advice of Wade Burleson and others and removed the post.  

Here is some of what he wrote:

"I deserve a lot of the chastisement I am receiving, and the rest I give up to God, who is more than able to sort out truth from lies, understanding from misunderstanding. He doesn’t need the help I’ve tried to pridefully offer him. I can trust him with my reputation.

What I First Did Wrong

My first foolishness in posting the original excerpt was not to heed Douglas Wilson’s disclaimer in the beginning of his book. He characterizes it as a “blunt instrument” and describes the particular audience he is writing for. That should have been my first indication either not to post the piece at all or to have at least posted it with a sufficient prefatory warning or more parsing of context. Either way, the blame for the insensitive bluntness of the blog post is not his, but totally mine."

Jared Wilson then concludes with these words:

I thought about that grocery store incident a lot in the last few days, and that’s why my first apology is due to my brothers and sisters in The Gospel Coalition and to my other complementarian brothers and sisters. I have brought ill repute upon you with my foolishness and rashness, and I ask your forgiveness.

But more importantly, my words hurt others whose pain runs deep and whose healing is difficult. I don’t want to load this apology up with words, because it is the most important part of this to me, and I want to be clear: For those offended or shamed, or otherwise and in any way burdened by my blog posts, your pain in this matter is totally my fault. Please forgive me.

Because I don’t believe a confessor should have the last word, the comments are open. And as before, you can still email me at jared AT gospeldrivenchurch DOT com.

Thanks for reading.

Christ is all."

You can read Jared Wilson's entire post here.  He probably had no idea one week ago today that he would be issuing such an apology. 

One of the lessons that has been learned from this fiasco is that the blogosphere is truly a small world after all.  This dust up caused quite a stir throughout the internet community.  For example, here is how Chaplain Mike over at the Internet Monk responded: Sex, Authority/Submission and Remarkable Insensitivity.

It will be interesting to see whether the mainstream press takes an interest in this story. 

Jared Wilson is a relatively new blogger over at The Gospel Coalition.  In his post This blog has moved (published January 23, 2012), Wilson explains that he is honored to be "joining the ranks of the bloggers at The Gospel Coalition site".

Those belonging to the John Piper fan club might be interested to know that Jared Wilson Tweets not only as himself but as the infamious Fake John Piper (@fakejohnpiper).  At least that was true back in January 2010 when Brandon Smith interviewed Wilson.  Here is what Smith wrote: 

"After reading his book and blog (The Gospel-Driven Church), Jared became one of my favorite pastors to read and listen to, and his Tweets are always great as himself and the infamous Fake John Piper (@fakejohnpiper)."

We understand that in the midst of the turmoil this week, Jared Wilson passed a kidney stone. As a sister in Christ, I do pray that he is doing much better. While I am grateful that Jared finally had the courage to apologize, I do believe that what transpired this week is representative of the Young, Restless, and Reformed crowd. They can be an arrogant, self-assured, domineering bunch, and I believe their attitudes are detrimental to the cause of Christ.

From our vantage point, it appears we have reached a tipping point in conservative Christian circles.  Dee and I are deeply troubled by some of the rhetoric coming from The Gospel Coalition ranks, and we believe some drastic measures need to be taken before patriarchy conquers the coalition.  Your gullible and easily deceived blog queens will have much more to say in some upcoming posts.  Read at your own risk…

Lydia's Corner:  Malachi 1:1-2:17  Revelation 21:1-27  Psalm 149:1-9  Proverbs 31:10-24


Jared Wilson, a Gospel Coalition Blogger, Lauds Patriarch Doug Wilson, Then Apologizes — 262 Comments

  1. I always wondered why @fakejohnpiper was not nearly has funny as @fakedriscoll. Now it makes sense 🙂

  2. I also wrote about this fiasco earlier this evening and one of the things I came away with after watching it all develop is that I ***think*** that ***maybe*** some of the moderate comps are starting to realize that they have a serious problem with both their message and PR. I can only imagine the private emails that have been flying around this week amongst the comp leadership.

    I also think most comps in the pew have never read much beyond “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood”. I doubt many of them have read even three or four serious, scholarly articles or books explaining the egalitarian view. I hope situations like this will at least cause some of them to stop and consider what they believe.

  3. Sallie, Agreed! They are so busy writing their own blogs, books, etc., that they don't have time to read what others have put out. It's finally catching up with them…

  4. Sallie, good points. We can only hope that some – followers and leaders – are thinking long and hard about their position.

    I’d like to think that this was the watershed moment. But I suspect that the best that can happen is that this is one such moment. Doubtless, and unfortunately, there will be others.

  5. One correction: It was Doug, a pastor at a Kirk in Idaho, who accused us of needing to retake our ESL classes, not Jared. Also, of having poetic ears like 3 feet of tinfoil.
    This, after I was nice to the extreme, complementary to the extreme, and complimentary to Doug’s parents, which you’d think a patriarchy-ist would like.
    I asked both Wilsons how they would APPLY authority and submission as an “erotic necessity” (in some real-life situation like marriage counseling). In fact, I had to ask each of them twice, including a request for supporting scriptures in my second request to Doug (to which he did not respond). Last night, I finally learned HERE, from Hester, the origin of this phrase, and why no scriptures were forthcoming. Doug’s book was quoting, with modification, a work of (well-written but not spirit-breathed) FICTION!
    From That Hideous Strength, by CS Lewis:
    “I see,” said the Director. “It is not your fault. They never warned you. No one has ever told you that obedience – humility – is an erotic necessity. You are putting equality just where it ought not to be.”
    Even though Lewis was many times the writer Wilson is, I must confess this passage is still unclear. But then, it’s just fiction.
    Doug changes obedience and humility to authority and submission, as well, to fit better in his Rape chapter.

  6. “From our vantage point, it appears we have reached a tipping point in conservative Christian circles. Dee and I are deeply troubled by some of the rhetoric coming from The Gospel Coalition ranks, and we believe some drastic measures need to be taken before patriarchy conquers the coalition.”

    Thanks for your posts and how you’ve provided an open forum for people to give voice to their feelings and opinions, Deb and Dee. What an intense week it’s been …

    I agree with you intuition about a tipping point, Deb. I’ve had a growing sense all this year that we’re moving toward a tipping point about spiritual abuse and accountability. Look at the increased number of survivor accounts and extensive documentation on the web just this year. Look at the reaction inside and outside the church to the defamation lawsuit filed against Julie Anne Smith for posting her opinion about an authoritarian church situation. Look at specific events like the one just this past week and the strong responses to the pain it caused.

    People of good will (and some maybe not so good) are stepping forward to call out individuals and groups and movements that are displaying or shielding abusive language, legalistic beliefs, and authoritarian behaviors. I believe the climate is changing and fewer conservative Christians will stand for such sin. No more “virtual pass” for abusive actions by Christian celebrity leaders, theologians, authors, conference speakers, etc.

    * Expect more documentation to be posted on authoritarian perpetrators of abuse.

    * Expect silence in the face of abuse to be labeled as enablement.

    * Expect enablers to be called out for their complicity and challenged to speak up and say “No more!”

    * Expect complicity to lead to some form of public accountability – even if only through a firestorm of push-back that shows up on the web.

    Leaders and followers in informal groups and movements like The Gospel Coalition need to wake up. Perhaps stark goings on like those of this past week will shake them up to see the logical implications of our language usage, our silence in the face of abusiveness, our allowing of some to hijack the identity and resources of the many.

    In fact, the metaphor that comes to mind for what I believe has happened is the cuckoo’s egg. The cuckoo is a parasite bird species that drops its eggs into another host bird’s nest. That bird ends up hatching the cuckoo’s egg and feeding the chick (which typically hatches quicker than the host’s eggs do, and grows faster than its own chicks). Meanwhile, the cuckoo chick pushes the host’s eggs and chicks out of the nest, leaving more room and more feedings for itself. So, through its dominant behaviors, the cuckoo destroys the host bird’s design, its progeny, its legacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckoo (see the section on “Brood Parasitism”).

    If we truly have reached a tipping point, then we should not be surprised to see some “host” organizations stop feeding the “hijackers” in their midst. For if they don’t their “nest” will implode.

  7. Brad, I suspect you are correct in your assessment of things to come. I frequently get e-mails from people all over the states who are talking to me about “coming out”. Yikes! Take a deep breath and think about it. My case is not over yet. People are tired of having no voice, of being trampled upon, victims put by the wayside while offenders are protected, covered up. The church is a big mess right now.

    As far as the Wilson/Wilson fiasco. I’m glad to see that Jared apologized. He was defensive for quite a while and something broke through. I appreciated that. However, there still seems to be unfinished business from the other Wilson. Too bad 🙁

  8. So Doug Wilson’s book is not to be read without caution because it is a ‘blunt instrument’. He warns the ladies not to read the ‘Fidelity’ unless their husbands ask them to. Does this remind anyone else of the judge who asked the jury whether they’d like their wives or servants to read ‘Lady Chatterly’s Lover’? It’s disturbing that neither Wilson sees how patronising this is.

    I’m glad he apologised and he has gone up in my estimation ten fold for doing so. But still – how does one equate ‘conquer’ and ‘colonise’ with ‘sacrifice’ and ‘serve’? I’m not sure I’ll ever understand how the patriarchal mind works.

    A few weeks ago I had a conversation with a classmate who is heavily into BDSM. We were talking about Fifty Shades of Grey and, while she loves it, I said that I was worried about the impression of women that some men would pick up from it. That they would get a very simplistic, general picture of female sexuality from it and say “See? Women like to be controlled by a strong man, really. They just pretend they want mutuality, but they don’t”. I worried that it added fuel to the misogyny fire. This week I feel like my fears have been justified.

  9. I am really glad to hear this. Thanks, Jared.

    To see the intimate act described as winning (conquering) and losing (surrendering) on a site with gospel in the name, made me grieve. This is not the gospel of the Jesus who said: The Gentiles lord it over/dominate/conquer others, but it shall not be among you…

    To read the false witness towards egalitarians as being the reason for sexual violence, all under the heading of “gospel” – I knew that message was not from Jesus.

    To read D. Wilson’s witness that as a rule men dream about raping – is it any wonder if an unbelieving man read that and say the (Christian) men Wilson know is worse than him and his fellow agnostic/ atheist/ Buhddist/ Hindu/ or whatever buddies?

    Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you,

    Doug Wilson still believe as he does, but at least it does not appear on a site named for the gospel – the good news of Christ – any more.

    I hope and pray this is not just a way to end the furore, but a real wake-up call to the complementarians to distance themselves from so-called “Christian” Patriarchy.

  10. The paragraph on egalitarians and sexual violence did not come out right.

    I meant to say I disliked the false witness of blaming egalitarians for causing sexual violence because they allegedly deny what is normal. It is unjust, as sexual violence is certainly prevalent in patriarchal societies too!

  11. Jared’s apology, now I read it, is of the sort: “I’m sorry you feel this way. I should not have put my opinion so bluntly, but this is still my opinion.”

    If he still believe egalitarians are to blame for rape and BDSM, all men dream of being rapists, and has the unexplainable view of bedroom behavior that simply denies all accusations and do not tell us what is complementarian bedroom behavior, then simply being more subtle in expressing it is no good. However, I am still glad those words are no longer on a page with GOSPEL in the name.

  12. Retha – yes I also wish they would explain what complementarian bedroom behaviour is and how it effectively prevents perversion. I’ve read a response somewhere that said complementarian sex is about a woman enjoying sex *as a woman* and a man enjoying sex *as a man*. I found that very weird. Perhaps I lack imagination but I really have no idea how I could possibly experience sex as *not a woman*. Surely by default, all my sexual experience is going to be *as a woman*? It’s these bizarre definitions, these re-definitions and nuances, that make complementarianism look absurd to me.

  13. Julie Anne wrote People are tired of having no voice, of being trampled upon, victims put by the wayside while offenders are protected, covered up. The church is a big mess right now.

    The Truth will always come out-one way or another because God’s Hand is on everything. Unless we shine Light on these ignorant beliefs they will continue.(Thanks Wartburg Ladies!) And unless you confront a bully and give him, or her, an ultimatum the abuse continues.

    The young, restless and reformed need to see how arrogant, ignorant and deceived they truly are. But, by the same token, I need to remember how arrogant, ignorant and deceived I was at their age: )

    God has a Way of humbling all of us.

  14. Jared’s apology is a start…

    but an apology is not a “get-out-of-jail-free” card. While a rapist might apologize for his actions, the long-term effects of that action may last a lifetime. Even accepting the apology and extending forgiveness on the part of the victim doesn’t necessarily erase the lifetime effects.

    Until Jared’s apology transfers to his heart, the attitude that first justified such a post unfortunately remains.

  15. As best I can tell he has apologized for his words creating a controversy. But not for his words.

  16. Kudos to Jared for apologizing, but I don’t agree with this part of his apology:

    “My first foolishness in posting the original excerpt was not to heed Douglas Wilson’s disclaimer in the beginning of his book. He characterizes it as a ‘blunt instrument’ and describes the particular audience he is writing for. … Either way, the blame for the insensitive bluntness of the blog post is not his, but totally mine.”

    I’m unsure how Jared can say that the insensitive bluntness of something he didn’t write is his fault. The original post, if I remember correctly, was mostly a quote – not many of Jared’s words at all. If Doug’s writing is insensitive, it’s not Jared’s fault. It’s Doug’s fault. Being a patriarch, I assume Doug is a big boy and can take responsibility for his own words and actions. Maybe that makes me an easily deceived woman.

    That said, I wonder how long it will be before Doug gets mad at Jared for “capitulating” to his evil egalitarian commenters.

  17. Whether Jared is apologizing for the right thing or not, one thing in for sure.
    He knows he stepped into a pile of cr*p and he’ll think twice before he flippantly steps near it again.
    Since he gives at least a form of an apology this gives me hope that he can learn from his experiences even if he won’t publicly acknowledge his errors.

  18. I so agree about the tipping point with spiritual abuse. I can remember about 13 years ago when we were seeing such abusive behavior and so naively believed in the church court system. There was almost nothing written about the concept. I know that it all made sense to me when World magazine wrote about the widespread sexual abuse within the Catholic Church and the light bulb went on….it is not about sex, it is about control and power!

    What I am seeing now, after dozens of books and thousands of articles online, is many churches hunkering down and pressing “church discipline” and membership. There is a pushing back to the pushing back of those who have suffered from abuse. That is some of what I saw in Jared’s articles. He is a churchman, after all. My prediction is that we will see more heavy handed stuff coming from these camps….must never forget that Presbyterian polity teaches that church elders hold the keys to the Kingdom. that belief in the hands of young, restless, Reformed, sophomoric men is a frightening sight to behold. Believe me, I have seen it.

  19. One more thing…we cannot forget the big issue here to begin with is the words of Doug Wilson. Taken in context of his whole Federal Husband mantra, this is what really needs to be examined. The patriocentrists all hold to those teachings and promote Wilson's writings on such. Jared was parroting the party nonsense. They are all slip-sliding into full blown patriocentricity…have seen it for years. And make no bones about it — it IS a woman driven movement.

  20. @ Thatmom:

    First of all, I love your blog. It’s the one that first started me down the patriocentricity rabbit trail, so thanks for your help, and I’m glad to see you commenting at TWW.

    Second, does Presbyterian polity really teach that?! And if so, how is that any different from the Pope (whom they object to so strenuously) holding the keys to the kingdom? In the Lutheran church, every believer holds “the office of the keys,” so what gives? I just came back to the LCMS church after trying out a PCA church for three years. No one there ever mentioned the keys concept, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything.

  21. Hester,

    Agreed!  thatmom’s information was quite eye-opening when I was just starting to research this lunacy almost four years ago.  I learned so much about patriarchy from her.

  22. I think the biggest issue with situations such as these is simple: Ephesians five states for Christians to submit one to another before it states for wives to submit to their own husbands and husbands to love their wives as Christ does the church.

    The problem with most of the “religious right” (and patriarch teaching leaders are way over on the “religious right”) modern day teachers within Christianity who perpetuate exacting doctrines like as what I just read in this post: they are not submitted to one another at a congregation level. I have observed many a time how men do not realize that if they are not submitting, along with their wives, in a congregation level properly, then it will go hard on their wives whether they can see it or not.

    I don’t care what sort of instrument this man thinks his book is, that it is written so obviously unbalanced (which is very easy to see by what was posted here) is a huge red flag. While I forgive him and other authors doing this, I am glad this blogger apologized. That shows proper submission possibilities on his part, and I thank God. Perhaps the blogger will go where this Doug Wilson will not ever go until he submits himself properly and also gets on his face in repentance before God and before his wife as well as his children. I sincerely hope he is not married. But if he is, then I strongly recommend his wife, and any wife of a Christian man who believes slants like what I read here, get to loving her husband in such a way as will help him move into repentance (smile). You won’t see the religious right teaching women about that little concept. I highly recommend reading and praying the book of Second John for women in this difficult position.


  23. And as to any apology from Doug Wilson….I would rather that he pull that book off the shelf entirely. That is the only appropriate apology. Well, unless there is enough good in the book. In which case he could edit out the biased teaching and stick an Apology Appendix in the back of it.

    Of course, he will likely be supported by those who are buying the reading material of those groupies. May God forgive them, and in the meantime, if they don’t start repenting for their persecution of the Christian women in this country, then I ask the Lord to make it known how His anger burns at this sort of arrogant religious charade.

  24. To our readers

    Last night, I sent Jared an email outlining my basic problem with his post, which was his comments. I plan to outline the issues indepth next week. I hope he responds because I believe the underlying issue is NOT resolved. Yeah, the post was creepy, despicable and cultish in its wording. Doug Wilson likes to think of himself as some sort of Scottish clansman. Doug is a very strange man, and his writings indicate it.

    So, here is how I see it.

    Does Doug Wilson indicate the direction of The Gospel Coalition?  If so, Christendom has a real problem.

    Does Jared Wilson’s response (and those of his fans) indicate how the Calvinistas define “Missional?”

    Finally, unless I get a response, I am beginning to formulate an opinion that their definition of missional is very different from the (to use their term) the Gospel missional definition. In fact, I am beginning to think they changed the word from missions to missional for a distinct reason.

    So, let’s see how things develop this weekend.

  25. It frustrates me that all this hoopla has brought any attention at all to Doug Wilson. He’s like a cockroach – you know he’s there, but you’d rather not see him. Wilson delights in the attention, he revels in the accusations. They only make him dig in deeper, and they intensify group cohesion. Look at the vile his daughters have posted towards Rachel. It makes me sick that these nuts get any limelight at all.

  26. ScotT

    “They only make him dig in deeper, and they intensify group cohesion.”

    You seem to be right…considering Nancy Wilson’s recent post defending the “attack” on Doug. We silly people just do not get it…our superiors do, however. It’s just because Doug is so godly…that’s all. Dismissed.

    Dee-thanks again for the Wilson/pedophile post. I pray this has brought some much needed attention to Doug Wilson. I hope Jared read your post. I hope his wife read it as well. I hope they do not dismiss it as gossip, slander and character defamation. I also hope TGC members think more carefully about who they promote.

    I guess if one is going to fellowship with certain farm animals…one should not be surprised or angry if one gets muddy.

  27. Dee – – re: your 10:30 am comment and the use of “missional” – – I would suggest the differentiation is going to get far more stark in days to come. And it needs to, because people seem not to understand that just because a cluster of people use a term, that doesn’t mean they actually mean anything similar by it. The term “missional” has gotten that way and, I believe, the identity and resources of churches, groups, and movements are being hijacked by those who hide behind “missional” vocabulary but are not missional.

    In fact, I’d say this:

    **If you are misogynal, you will NEVER be missional.**

    Part of what seems to be surfacing in this episode is that not all so-called “complementarians” are alike. Those who truly want to be “missional” now need to prove that they are not misogynistic. That is because some celebrity complementarians give every demonstration that they are actually all about men *overlording* women. And some celebrity complementarians have said nothing publicly to rebuke such evil. So … who are the real deal? Who are the missional ones?

    So, anyone who wants to disprove the theory that “missional complementarian” is an oxymoron has a lot to do. They must demonstrate true concern and compassion for the other half of the world’s population, and the real-world issues that women face. They must distinguish themselves from the misogynists and distance themselves from beliefs, language, and practices that logically deny the parity of both women and men in the eyes of God. And they must not endorse by either their words or their silence those who use the language of patriarchy, power, and penetration. Otherwise, they have no right to think they can reach women in the name of Christ.

  28. Brad wrote:

    “They must distinguish themselves from the misogynists and distance themselves from beliefs, language, and practices that logically deny the parity of both women and men in the eyes of God. And they must not endorse by either their words or their silence those who use the language of patriarchy, power, and penetration. Otherwise, they have no right to think they can reach women in the name of Christ.”

    Well said!

    I want to take this opportunity to recognize the men who hang out with us here at The Wartburg Watch.  Your support means so much to us!  You guys are the “REAL” men.  Thanks from the bottom of my heart.

  29. afa Doug Wilson’s daughter’s post…

    Wow. Just wow.
    Way to be over-the-top melodramatic and try to imitate classic literature (while failing miserably) yet say pretty much nothing at all except, “How dare anyone ever think they could ever question my father” and “Any woman who has a gripe about anything (especially about my dad) needs to be verbally b!+@#slapped back into the lowly place of submission that God has designed her for.”

    This post is proof positive that there are misogynist women too.

  30. Yeah, the post was creepy, despicable and cultish in its wording. Doug Wilson likes to think of himself as some sort of Scottish clansman. — Dee

    Yo DO know that the Ku Klux Klan trademark of the Burning Cross is a direct swipe from The Firey Cross which was the Scots Clans call to arms? To announce war, riders would ride out from the Laird’s castle carrying burning crosses; all clansmen who saw them had to respond and assemble for war.

    You seem to be right…considering Nancy Wilson’s recent post defending the “attack” on Doug. We silly people just do not get it…our superiors do, however. It’s just because Doug is so godly…that’s all. — Diane

    Of course Doug is GODLY. He is The Elect, Predestined as Truly Godly since Before the Creation of the World.

  31. Thanks for your kind words, Hester and Deb.

    This article by Wilson’s daughter is exactly what I mean by women-driven movement. These guys are like the kid from Honey I Blew Up the Kid around the high tension lines. They get bigger the more they are energized by these women and their adoration.

  32. ….must never forget that Presbyterian polity teaches that church elders hold the keys to the Kingdom. that belief in the hands of young, restless, Reformed, sophomoric men is a frightening sight to behold. — ThatMom

    Same dynamic as Chairman Mao’s Red Guard and the Taliban. Young guys of low status (beneath their Elders) trying to climb to the top and sit at the Elders’ table, given absolute power over someone else with Cosmic-level justification and Utter Righteousness.

    Absolute Power plus Utter Righteousness is not a good combination.

  33. Deb said, “You guys are the “REAL” men”. You’re welcome!
    I made a typo of “mn” in a now-vanished and never-replied-to comment to Doug W.
    I then caught my typo and said something like , “I think you’ll agree that any rapist or abusive husband/boyfriend is not a real man, but rather a ‘mn’. 🙂 ” Not long afterward came his “Oh, where are your poetic ears! Retake your ESL classes!” conclusion.

  34. This post is proof positive that there are misogynist women too — Mara

    In the sense of
    (1) Freedom from responsibility/don’t think, just submit?
    (2) “Beat me! Whip me! Make me write bad checks!”?
    (3) Holding their handmaid on their lap for their Godly husband to “penetrate, colonize, plant (TM)”?
    (4) Queen Bee Syndrome? (i.e. “I’ve gotten myself into a cushy position, I’m gonna make damn sure NOBODY else gets up here with me!”?)

    I remember during the all-time peak of the Ku Klux Klan (the Roaring Twenties), it was the Women’s Auxilliary of the Klan who were the most extreme. Egging their men on to bigger and bigger extremes, like Imelda Marcos did to Ferd or Elena Ceausescu did to Nick. And the men got even more extreme to prove to themselves they weren’t really P-whipped.

  35. 1. I agree with Brad: Doug Wilson is a cuckoo.

    2. Doug Wilson’s premises are off because he is arrogant and controlling, and he interprets Scripture in such a way that he gets a pat on the head for that.

    3. That attitude has passed into the DNA of his empire. We see this in how his wife and daughter and supporters dismiss his detractors as not intellectual enough to follow the finer points of his shifting arguments.

    4. It resonates at some level with TGC guys and will pull them into harder comp/patriarchy by degrees if something doesn’t stop the trend. Let’s hope this did, but I suspect not.

    5. Gender roles are not the main point of Scripture. ‘Proper’ hierarchy isn’t what Jesus bled and died for. Complementarianism (or not)is not of first-tier, make-or-break importance.

    6. They get Scripture about that wrong, anyway. Genesis 3:16 doesn’t tell men to rule and women to like it unless it tells us also to make childbirth more painful, or Gen 3:14 tells us to pull the legs off of lizards to make them snakes, or Gen 3:17 tells all men to be farmers who plant thorns and thistles and eat them. (And woe to those who seek to mitigate the pain and danger of childbirth or who use fans or air conditioners or have a non-sweaty job.)

    7. They also miss the point and context of Eph. 4 & 5 and mangle the meaning of Eph. 5 through confirmation bias.

    8. The Gospel Coalition, gospel this and gospel that — They keep using that word. I do not think that means what they think it means.

    9. They should be called the “Yay! We’re Reformed Now” John Piper
    Fan Club. TGC is not about the good news of Jesus and His mission to the lost. If it really were about that, they would partner with anyone, Calvinist or Arminian, who is doing that. Instead, TGC is about their ‘missional’ strategies to spread their “Neo-Reformation Gospel” throughout the church.

    10. The status and money to be gained by ‘preaching to the choir’ of young impressionable pastors and wannabes doesn’t hurt, either.

  36. ^ Correction to point # 9. The TGC is about selling books and banking at conferences, contact company spokesman Justin Taylor with any questions.

  37. “Gather around, children, and I will try to provide you with a brief post mortem on the recent ruckus created by our professional indignati.”

    This would be more of the Christ-like humility professing Christian pastors say we should imitate.(Perhaps Jared could post this quote. This would be a fine example. Or maybe the below quote)–

    “The Bible certainly says to weep with those who weep. When one part of the body hurts, the rest of the body hurts. But this happens in community, face to face, and not in the midst of a sob sister rugby scrum, with them trying to get us to back away from any particular truth the Scriptures plainly teach. We are told to weep with those who weep. We are told nothing in regard to the feminist bedwetters. More on that later, so make sure you read that far.”

    Sob sister rugby scrum…another good quote.
    Feminist bedwetters…about whom we are told nothing? I see…only people like Doug Wilson get the “one anothers” or any semblance of Christian love.

    “Say that somebody orchestrates a great “taking offense offensive,” and that somebody else answers them with wit and fire. If a bassoon player in the orchestra of offense shows up in the comments section of their blog and expresses a sentiment along the lines of “way to miss the redemptive moment, bitch,” one may begin to suspect that redemptive moments weren’t actually their central interest. The lesson we can take away from Mark 5 is that people who ooze compassion one moment and erupt with unbridled scorn the next are on somebody’s payroll.”

    Thanks for the B word…?pastor? Another thing we are supposed to imitate?

    “They feebly try to come back at me. “The Bible says that we are not to be hurtful. The Bible says to have compassion. The Bible says that squishy socialism is the true counter-culturalism. What do you say to that?” Pretty simple, actually. I would tell them all that inerrancy makes my scalp itch. Don’t quote Gal. 3:28 at me, sister. I have had a grudge against the apostle Paul ever since he wrote those misbegotten words. Two can play at pick n’ choose.”

    Yes—another good quote. Grudge? Misbegotten words?

    “So what is worse? To deny the authority of the words of the thrice-holy God, or to say that someone is being a bedwetter? Well, in this strange new world, the question answers itself. “Mommmm! He said bedwetters!” I’ll let you in on a little secret, which you may have already guessed if you have been following. For the most part their sheets are dry. If I were dealing with a family struggling with the very real problems of a child humiliated by bedwetting, the only attitude that should have any place in my heart would be compassion down to the ground. But when I deal with these bedwetters, you may feel free to imagine me sitting here at my laptop, hands on my tummy like Santa Claus, bouncing with each chuckle. Ho, ho, ho.”

    Oh—somebody please quote this at TGC.

  38. I’m going to try to tread lightly here…

    I agree that one of the questions being asked is who speaks for the complementarians.

    But I also have to ask who speaks for the egalitarians? Even I was surprised by the vitriol coming forth against Rachel Held-Evans. I’ll be honest. I think her extremely left stance on some issues undermines what she writes about egalitarianism. Even when she did her Week of Mutuality series and there was some good stuff there, I did not link to it because so much of what is on her site is just way too far left for me to be comfortable sending people there. She has written herself about being conflicted with her views that are both conservative in some ways and liberal in others so I’m not saying something that isn’t obvious to anyone reading her blog. But I really think egalitarianism takes a hit because of her prominence and stance on other theological issues. She is the face of egalitarianism for many online and that concerns me.

    RHE doesn’t speak for me and where I’m at in trying to decide for myself about these issues. I much more identify with the writings from Wade Burleson, Jon Zens, Internet Monk, and Frank Viola.

    I don’t know who speaks for the men and women who are overall fairly conservative on church and theology but have some legitimate questions and concerns about complementarianism. I don’t want to be written off because of the outspokenness of others who teach and preach things I don’t agree with.

    I think the egalitarians have their own PR problems as well in this regard and that became even more obvious to me over the past week.

  39. “Thomas Sowell once wisely said that charges of racism are like ketchup—they go on anything. I have been accused of misogyny and racism so many times I have lost track of them all. But Jesus says that we should rejoice when this sort of thing happens (Matt. 5:11-12). No, wait . . . He actually said that when this kind of thing happens, we should be exceedingly glad.”

    And glad he is…because, what with all the numeorus charges that are SO MANY that he has even lost track of them…he couldn’t possibly actually BE in the wrong. Nope.

  40. Diane

    I just read Doug Wilson’s response. How very, very vile.

    Doug Wilson and Jared Wilson are now exhibiting vastly different attitudes. Jared has shown humility and attempted reconciliation, while Doug…has not. (To put it VERY lightly.)

  41. @Diane,

    Yes, there was always a 0% chance that DW would apologize. This is a man who doubles, triples, and quadruples down when he gets confronted.

    His arrogance is nothing new, and more importantly his followers love it. It attracts a certain kind of person – Frank Turk I am looking at you – and you can see on his own blog the adulation every time he punches someone in the throat (metaphorically).

    When he is not busy corrupting the Gospel and other major theological tenets, or equivocating about having done so, he is typically busy creating new and clever ways to insultingly dismiss anyone who challenges him.

    Also, he is highly adept at playing the victim card (which is funny for a guy who projects the public image of the fearless debater for truth). Witness above how he has transformed the TGC thing into an organized feminist conspiracy against himself.

    This is typical Wilson. He did it repeatedly with the slavery thing way back when. He has done it over and over with Federal Vision. He did it with the first round of the Sitler controversy.

    There is a lovely post on his blog from a few years back where he promotes the idea that anyone who wants to bring up his handling of Sitler is a perpetrator, because by bringing the issue up they are re-victimizing Sitler’s victims. Let me be perfectly clear – Doug Wilson puts people who raise issues about how he handled the original Sitler crisis into the same category as Sitler himself.

    Doug Wilson, of course, is the godly pastor who did the right thing, both then and now.

  42. Sallie said:

    “RHE [Rachel Held Evans] doesn’t speak for me and where I’m at in trying to decide for myself about these issues. I much more identify with the writings from Wade Burleson, Jon Zens, Internet Monk, and Frank Viola.”

    My sentiments exactly!  Thanks for this great commentary.

  43. These maddening beginnings from 4 straight paragraphs of Doug’s latest offensive politics.
    “They don’t believe that man must live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”
    “They have dismissed the authority of Scripture”
    “They deny the authority of Scripture”
    “To deny the authority of the words of the thrice-holy God”
    I BEGGED this man to give me Scripture and application for “authority and submission are an erotic necessity” and got no answer! Then I found out that he got this idea from That Hideous Strength, explaining the lack of logos or rhema.
    For any who missed it before, the pronouncement of Merlin upon Doug and his followers:
    “Qyi Verbum Dei contempserunt, eis auferetur etiam verbum hominis.”
    “They that have despised the Word of God, from them shall the word of man also be taken away.”
    Merlin explains why so many just can’t seem to understand the word of Moscow.

  44. Sallie also said:

    “I don’t know who speaks for the men and women who are overall fairly conservative on church and theology but have some legitimate questions and concerns about complementarianism.”

    As one who places himself squarely in the aforementioned group, I don’t know who speaks for me either.


  45. “They don’t believe that man must live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”
    Yes, I do.

    “They have dismissed the authority of Scripture”
    No, I haven’t.

    “They deny the authority of Scripture”
    No, I don’t.

    “To deny the authority of the words of the thrice-holy God”
    No, I don’t.

    And this is exactly what I’m talking about. I found the Wilson quotation offensive on Jared’s post, but it isn’t because I deny the authority of God or the Word of God. I found it offensive because I think it is an inaccurate interpretation of Scripture and what it means for a man and woman to become one flesh.

  46. This fight between a lot of people who call themselves Christians, some of whom promote real evil in the name of Christ, make me remember:
    Rom 8:19 In fact, all creation is eagerly waiting for God to show who his children are. (CEV)

    And of the words of a Don Francisco song: “I know we have to wait for you to burn up the chaff/ but can we do for the sheep/ when the wolves are on full time staff?”

    Let the real Christians (comp and egal) please stand up and say Christianity is not about asserting power, about conquering and colonizing. Not on the political or bedroom level. Will we stand up and call false testimony sin, and blaming egals for sexual perversion is false testimony.

    (For those who dislike the words “real Christians” in there: No, I cannot judge the state of someone else’s salvation.
    But I can judge a tree by its fruit, and know that some people – regardless of their salvation or not – are not speaking from what Christ want them to say of a certain matter. As such, they are not talking as Christians.)

  47. Doug Wilson: “They don’t believe that man must live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”
    “They have dismissed the authority of Scripture”
    “They deny the authority of Scripture”
    “To deny the authority of the words of the thrice-holy God”

    Doug does not believe that he must live by the words of Jesus which state:

    Matthew 23:8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.


    Luke 22:25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ 26 But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. 27 For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

    So, what does that mean?
    That he dismisses the words of Jesus?
    That he denies the authority of the words in red?
    That he denies the authority of the thrice holy God?

    Or maybe he doesn’t think that Jesus is the thrice holy God who came in the flesh to walk this earth among men.
    Or perhaps he thinks that traditional interpretations of Paul’s words carry more weight that the the words of the thrice holy God who walked the earth among men.

    Who can say?
    All I know is that he doesn’t take the words of Jesus very serious.

  48. Thatmom,

    “They are all slip-sliding into full blown patriocentricity…have seen it for years. And make no bones about it — it IS a woman driven movement.”

    I’m sure you’ve discussed this issue here and elsewhere, but I haven’t seen it discussed much. Can you give me (and others who may not have read much about the issue) some insight into how patriocentricity became a woman-driven movement? I’ve been reading the jaw-dropping posts and follow-up posts by Doug Wilson’s daughters and wife. They claim to be happy over there, downright “chirpy” as Bekah exclaimed. But their posts reflect the most nasty anger, defensiveness, and emotional immaturity I’ve ever read on the internet. Any commenter who has called them out for it (including numerous complementarians) has been lambasted by Doug Wilson’s followers. Many of those cheering on Doug Wilson and his daughters are women themselves. I’m familiar with Stockholm Syndrome. What other insights do you have about women who ferociously defend patriocentricity and its abuses?

  49. Dee:

    I agree that Jared Wilson’s removal of the post and apology are good things.

    Whether this indicates second thoughts about promoting Doug Wilson and his fringe beliefs by Jared Wilson or the Gospel Coalition, is an unanswered question.

    I am glad that you wrote Jared, and that you asked him that question.

    Giving you a direct answer to that question, at this time, may be a bridge too far.

    I know why you asked. I am glad you asked. But that is a big question for him, requires a lot of thought and a lot of counsel, I bet, within the Gospel Coalition.

    My bet, and it is just that – a bet, is that the wheels are turning on this issue.

    Even if you don’t get the answer you want now, be optimistic. The answer may never come – directly.

    We may just see the answer develop over time. No more promos of Wilson.

  50. Wendy, I admit that this comment is not based on reading Doug’s wife or daughters. I don’t read angry patri women defending patriarchy/ their men any more- too upsetting, for too little value.

    But I saw the razor-tongued anger in patri women years ago. (The first one in which I saw this had the nickname Spacebunny.)

    I think they love others as they love themselves. And they believe their husbands / fathers are wise and right while they are easily deceived, so they love themselves as much as their husbands/ fathers love them.

    Yes, they hate egals and everyone who is not like them. But they hate themselves too. It is tragic, and I find reading them more triggering than reading conquer language for sex. My heart grieves for them.

  51. Wow, Doug sounds pretty p***ed. Let’s hope those vituperative little gems get plastered all over the internet as soon as possible. And he sure can’t accuse someone of being “bitter and angry” ever again, because what I just read is spouting bitterness and anger like a broken water main.

    Dee and Deb, can you take his response apart tomorrow point-by-point? That way, since he’d clearly prefer we all agree to agree with him so this whole thing can go away, people will continue to see.

  52. I read Doug Wilson’s most recent post. I can’t help but wonder if this is a glimpse of “who he is when he’s at home.”

  53. Here’s a question I’d like to propose: I’m extremely hesitant to make a judgement of who is a Christian and who is not a Christian, but at what point (concerning Doug Wilson) do we just say, “this man words and actions are so contrary to the gospel and counter-Jesus, that we cannot seriously address a man as though he is a Christian?” I’m not saying that’s necessarily the appropriate response would be, I’m just thinking aloud, but feedback would be great.


  54. Sallie said:

    “RHE [Rachel Held Evans] doesn’t speak for me and where I’m at in trying to decide for myself about these issues. I much more identify with the writings from Wade Burleson, Jon Zens, Internet Monk, and Frank Viola.”

    My sentiments exactly! Thanks for this great commentary.

    Ditto for me, Sallie. And great thoughts as always, my friend.

  55. nearly speechless at Doug Wilson’s latest. Oh my goodness. That man certainly needs a little Motown….prescribing Barry White. Tonight.

  56. Wendy, did you ever see the newest version of The Stepford Wives with Nicole Kidman?


    This scene reminds me so much of what is going on in the patriarchy world. Women want a perfect world. They elevate the trivial to the point that it becomes who they are. They are role playing and they don’t even know it. like Stepford, so much is from a past era (Jane Austen, pre-Civil War south, or the 1950’s American suburbs.) Rather than looking at our culture today and thinking how we can use our spiritual and God-given gifts to further the Gospel, it becomes playing a part and that includes scripting for husbands etc. I am not saying that there aren’t men leading this. But these guys target certain groups and build their case.There is so much written just for women and because we sincerely want what is best for our husbands and families, we are tempted to go along.

    I could say so much more:

    Here is an article I wrote that talks about the curriculum they use to promote all of this:


    Another example: all the workshops at homeschooling conventions that try to “fix” husbands. Who do you think attends those? Mostly women.

    Part of this is driven by fear( for themselves and their kids for the future, part is driven by idolatry.

    Also have to remember that the rules don’t apply to the leaders in these groups…hypocrisy reigns.

  57. Mara on Sat Jul 21, 2012 at 08:21 AM said:
    Whether Jared is apologizing for the right thing or not, one thing in for sure.
    He knows he stepped into a pile of cr*p and he’ll think twice before he flippantly steps near it again.

    Yes, but it was not a pile of dog poo but of Doug poo.

  58. “Dee and Deb, can you take his response apart tomorrow point-by-point? That way, since he’d clearly prefer we all agree to agree with him so this whole thing can go away, people will continue to see.” – Hester

    I agree. That would be a great post. If anyone hasn’t read Doug Wilson’s posts today, hop on over. Oh.my.word. How in the world did this rambling, nonsensical, mean-spirited man become a pastor? I ask that in all sincerity.

  59. I don’t think Rachel attempts to speak for egalitarians as a whole. A number of times she has reiterated the dangers of too easily assuming someone’s viewpoint is fully reflective of a larger community’s. I also think she she is a very gracious Christian blogger who is thoughtful with her words, and even when I don’t agree with her, I appreciate her very much.

  60. @Wendy-

    “How in the world did this rambling, nonsensical, mean-spirited man become a pastor? I ask that in all sincerity.”

    Isn’t he self-ordained? I guess that’s how? He has no theo training, right?

    My question too. Thus I refer to him as a professing Christian ?pastor?

    I had no idea that how he speaks is considered acceptable from a high-ish profile professing Christian ?pastor?. The people in his congregation who read his blog…think that’s ok? Cheering him on? Scary stuff.

    My–TGC must be on a brooooaaaaaad road.

  61. marie,

    Please don’t misunderstand.  I respect Rachel Held Evans.  We link to her blog.  It’s just that some of her views are more liberal than the ones Dee and I hold.


  62. Marie – I agree that I don’t think RHE purposely attempts to speak for all egalitarians. But I think that is how many/most comps online view her. She is the most vocal and has the largest reach. If you can think of another more prominent egal blogger, I am very open to being corrected in this perception.

    The problem is that if RHE is seen as the “norm” of egals and those questioning complementarianism, then those of us who are much more conservative end up being quickly dismissed out of the assumption that we must be just like her.

    I’m sincerely not trying to dump on her. I am just pointing out that I think the egal camp in all its varying degrees also has a public perception problem because many other issues are getting lumped in with her egal views. And among the more conservative (and older?) people who are looking at views other than complementarianism, it’s going to undermine the message about women in the Church.

  63. Some good points with which I would agree.

    Re the apparent emotional commitment (ahem) of some of the patriarchophile women, has anyone seen the film “Downfall”? It’s based on the history of Hitler’s last days in the bunker. Some of the most fanatical die-hards in the film are women, including Goebbels’ wife and Hanna Reitsch, who by all accounts was a very daring test-pilot.

    I would be grateful if someone could give a definition of “missional” as it is being used by the neo-Reformed group(s). As someone said, is there a suspicion that it is less to do with the traditional idea of “mission” than one might first think? With church planting, there has been some suspicion here in the UK that some church plants by groups favouring the neo-Reformed view have been carried out in parishes/areas where there were already evangelical churches, but not of that school, if you get my drift. I would also welcome Lynne T’s comments on this.

    I think, tragically, that the word “gospel” itself is being demeaned and devalued by its constant application as an adjective to anything and everything. It is tragic because properly understood, the gospel is the most glorious thing, and I pray it will not end up in many people’s minds festooned with negative connotations.

    BTW I am conservative evangelical myself, but most unhappy with the state of affairs that has been highlighted on TWW about the “Calvinistas” and some of their secondary teaching (or primary teaching, if you are right about their promotion of it!).

  64. Thatmom and Retha,

    I appreciate the feedback. Thatmom, thank you for the links. I will watch and read tonight. Women having such a primary role in patriocentricity is so baffling.

  65. @Diane,

    ‘Part One – Seeds are Sown…’ (link below) recounts how Wilson got control of what would become Christ Church. It involved, among other things, telling lies. He continued in these lies for a decade. After which it was called a “mistake”, like, you know, a clerical error.

    “In order to validate his usurpation of power, Wilson drafted a letter attesting to his godly character and his qualifications to remain pastor. Even though the elders refused to sign the document, Wilson and his closest associates continued to swear until July 2003 that the signatures were obtained. Two of the three elders then resigned in disgust.”


    Once again, all of this information is readily available. Many of the original people involved are still around. If TGC or Piper or any of these other fanboys I mean endorsers cared in the slightest, they could easily find the information and documentation. Doug Wilson isn’t a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He’s a wolf with a tiny strip of sheepskin pasted on like a bad toupee.

    They just don’t care.

    Sheep: It’s what’s for dinner.

  66. Diane,

    “I had no idea that how he speaks is considered acceptable from a high-ish profile professing Christian ?pastor?. The people in his congregation who read his blog…think that’s ok? Cheering him on? Scary stuff.”

    Apparently, Doug Wilson’s rambling rants and un-Christlike behavior is acceptable to some. So, no formal seminary training, correct? A faculty member at a college he helped start with a few others from his own church. So, his “accomplishments” have been made within the confines of his own little group. Makes sense. Those “accomplishments” wouldn’t have been possible in the real world. Just take a look at how he responds to commenters on his posts – he doesn’t play well with others.

  67. Diane

    Oh, they have read the pedophile post and I was declared a non-Christian over at Doug’s post by one of his fanbooys. This now opens the door to say that Doug’s boys are participating in original sin, believeing that they, too can be like God and judge salvation. Wow, wow, wow….

  68. To all readers
    Sob sister rugby scum!!!!! This is what Doug Wilson called my readers and others. This is not going to go well for them.

  69. ABC (Andrew),

    “…at what point (concerning Doug Wilson) do we just say, ‘this man words and actions are so contrary to the gospel and counter-Jesus, that we cannot seriously address a man as though he is a Christian?'”

    I’ve been thinking the same thing. Matthew 7:15-16 15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

  70. @ Dee

    “Oh, they have read the pedophile post and I was declared a non-Christian over at Doug’s post by one of his fanbooys.”

    “6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

    7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

    8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

    9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

    10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

    13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.”

    Eph 5

  71. Dee, just goes to show you.
    You and Deb and your readers deal in issues, logic, reason, and justice.
    Doug, deals in mockery, scoffing, self-righteousness, and name-calling.
    He’s got nothing else, no matter how loud he yells that God is on his side and not on our side.

    And yes, Arce, it most certainly is Doug poo. Piles and piles of Douggy poo. Or should I say miles and miles of Douggy poo.

    (I keep trying to type Doug as Dough. And it keeps reminding me of HUG’s link to doughy guys!)

    May Doughy Poo realize that what he thought was poo hitting the fan is nothing compared to what’s to come cause Dee is ticked off now.

  72. To all readers

    Sob sister rugby scum!!!!! This is what Doug Wilson called my readers and others. This is not going to go well for them.

    no—not scum…SCRUM. Rugby thingy. 🙂 (I quoted it at 1:42 today.)

  73. Dee –

    Fanboy claims you’re not a Christian because you call into question the wisdom of Doug Wilson marrying a pedophile to a young woman . . . hmmm . . . there is something wrong with fanboy’s logic. Oh, yes. I forgot. He learned his logic from DW.

  74. I also love how he assumes that the “feminist bedwetters” are all women (as evidenced by the “sob sister” quip). Even though Dave (presumably a man) repeatedly asked him for answers and he refused to give them. So if Doug constructed a study, it would look like this:

    “Our new study revealed that 100% of feminists are women! We TOLD you it was an evil female plot to bring down the church!”

    “But my nextdoor neighbor is a man and he calls himself a feminist. What gives?”

    “Why would we include men in our study? All feminists are women! Duh!”

  75. To all readers

    It is scrum and I thank you for the correction. “Scrum (an abbreviated form of scrummage, which is now rarely used, except as a verb), in the sports of rugby union and rugby league, is a way of restarting the game, either after an accidental infringement or (in rugby league only) when the ball has gone out of play. ..”

    So what ball is out of play?

  76. ABC (Andrew),

    I understand your question and have wondered the same myself. The only scripture that came to mind as I was reading his recent post today was this:

    Mark 7:21 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
    Mark 7:22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.

    What’s in his heart comes out of his mouth and it ain’t pretty!

  77. Diane on Sat Jul 21, 2012 at 01:42 PM

    Wow! This is quite obviously vile, but noticeable that there is neither data, exegesis nor argument to back up his position. Just “God says I’m right” and abuse. What a thoroughly nasty little man

    What intrigues me is that this is such a common modus operandi amongst right wing Christian blogger – try pointing out the errors in – say – Cranmer in the UK and await the ad hominen torrents to flow your way.

    Good luck, God bless and keep up the good work

  78. Re: the scrum

    It’s only used when the ball goes out of play in the not proper version that the Australians play! (These things matter down here you know!). .

    Put simply a scrum is a group of players bound together, facing the enemy literally head on, and pushing forward in unison for a common goal.

    As insults go, it’s a deliciously (and ironically) ineffective one.

  79. Hester and thatmom-

    “he assumes that the “feminist bedwetters” are all women”

    Yes, not all feminists are women…and not all patriarchalists are men!

    I watched The Stepford Wives (2004) for the first time a few months ago and was struck by the parallels to uber-complementarianism. Sometimes women are the most vocal defenders of this ideology and play a big role encouraging other women in it. And of course, teaching their daughters (and sons) to conform to it…

  80. @ Bad Dog:

    Thanks for that link! You keep directing me toward the good stuff. I’d never heard the charge of Tritheism the author makes (which is kinda funny given that he’s Unitarian), but this has got to be the wonkiest formulation of the Trinity I’ve ever heard:

    “In a column in the Moscow-Pullman Daily News (8-7-07), Wilson’s Tritheism is readily evident when he states the ‘Father is the Lover, the Son is the Beloved, and the Holy Spirit is the love of each for the other.’ The church fathers would turn over in their graves at such a theological hatchet job. St. Augustine set the grounds for the orthodox Trinity by saying it has but one will, but here we have two wills, because Wilson demotes the Holy Spirit from a ‘person’ to simply the love that passes between two deities.”

    And of course, Prof. Gier is exactly right, or at least on the right track. The only other way you could explain this is by saying Wilson’s “Trinity” only has two persons, which hardly saves him from the charge of unorthodoxy.

    Also, I simply have to point out that his use of the terms “Lover” and “Beloved” reeks of Song of Solomon, which is of course laden with sexual/marriage imagery. This may not have been what he meant (though, as we now know, he reserves the right to determine what he meant regardless of the actual meaning of the words he used). But that’s where my brain went.

  81. As I recall, Wilson has a brother (or maybe it is his dad?) who pastors another church across town in Moscow and they have estranged for many years. That speaks volumes.

  82. Deb,

    Those Bayly posts and the comments make me feel more ill than the Doug Wilson quote. From Bayly himself:
    “According to Jared, the most important part of his closing post was the following: “For those offended or shamed, or otherwise and in any way burdened by my blog posts and my comments, your pain in this matter is totally my fault. Please forgive me.”

    Is he really serious? Nobody who was offended was offended by the truth of what God’s word teaches about sexuality? Nobody who was burdened was burdened by the recognition of their own sin? He claims the work of the Holy Spirit for himself, and then apologizes for it. That is not humility, but the pinnacle of pride.”

    I’ve responded with a blunt but simple answer:
    “Can you provide Scripture that says authority and submission, ‘conquering’ and ‘surrendering’, are to be carried out in the bedroom? Because neither Song of Songs nor 1 Corinthians 7, not even Ephesians 5 in its entirety suggests such a thing.

    P.S: Failure to respond will be taken as a failure to provide appropriate scripture.”

    I think it’s too curt for a patriarch’s liking, also he can’t provide scripture because there isn’t any, so I’d like to state that I have posted the comment and if it’s taken down, don’t be surprised.

  83. The content of Baylyblog is vile, but I did chuckle at their characterisation of John MacArthur:

    “warning against John MacArthur’s feminist study Bible and the sort of temptations that led him into this sin…” (From the post, ‘Why Baylyblog’)

    John MacArthur, a feminist! What planet are these guys living on?

  84. http://www.dennyburk.com/praise-god-for-jared-wilsons-humility/

    Well, the wagons are circling. Here we have the Dean of SBTS Boyce College lauding Jared for his “humility” but no mention of Doug Wilson.

    This is going to be a problem for the GC guys. What do they do with Piper? The young boys like Jared, who revere Piper, always jump on his latest bandwagon. He keeps leading them off cliffs. When are people going to realize Piper is a nutcase?

  85. I never go to the Baylyblog. They are on my bad list a little bit above FLDS and Westboro and a little below Doug Wilson. There is nothing good to be found there. Only hatred and self-righteousness. Since they, like Doug Wilson, are not interested in engaging in anything resembling an honest debate or willing to see the Bible any other way than their own perverted and self-serving way, there is nothing I can do but leave them to their Maker to sort it out.

  86. Anne –

    That is the question I asked Jared Wilson last week when his post came up and those were the scriptures he responded with — ?? When I said that those scriptures did not answer my specific question, I got no further response to that specific question. They don’t seem to understand that they are adding to scripture and not allowing people to be bound by their conscience when scripture is not clear
    on a specific issue. Many want to turn scripture into a book of laws that covers every possible circumstance. Paul spoke often about the conscience.

  87. Anon 1 –

    I went to Burke’s link that you posted. Did you read the comment section? The commentors link to D. Wilson and Bayly brothers or ARE the Bayly brothers linking to themselves! The comments claim most of the people who posted on Jared’s blog we only “offended by truth” and did not offer real argument. What is quite odd about that is that I commented on Jared’s blog that Doug Wilson used no scripture in the quote to support his position. Jared responded that the whole book was filled with scripture (he didn’t quote the whole book or suggest anyone read it until the comments started comming in).

    What I find appalling about DW and the Bayly brothers is that “they believe that their understanding of ALL scripture is the correct understanding.” Anyone who thinks otherwise is often labeled a heretic. I guess if people weak in the faith fall away it is just the providence of God or God’s sovereignty? Jesus and Paul had much to say about this happening and the results to those who caused it.

  88. Thatmom asked,
    “As I recall, Wilson has a brother (or maybe it is his dad?) who pastors another church across town in Moscow and they have estranged for many years. That speaks volumes.”
    I know he’s done a couple videos with his dad, and had him preach a couple times  I listened to a recent sermon by Jim, which didn’t sound “reformed” or “southern intellectual” at all. Jim referred to him, to his congregation, as “Doug Who?” 
    As for his brother, this from the CT “Controversialist” article:  http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/april/24.42.html?start=2
    “Evan (his brother) was being more consistent with his free-will premises than I was being with mine.” In a fraught period that Evan calls “The Great Unpleasantness,” Doug became a postmillennial Calvinist, drifted away from the Drones, and asked Evan to resign from all teaching roles in their church.”

  89. Mara –

    I agree. I would not want to engage DW or the Bayly brothers. I view the Pyro blog in be same way. Their responses are often sharp and degrading to people who try to interact with a different perspective on scripture. They come across like they are God and all should bow to them.

    I find it interesting that Doug Wilson is a self appointed pastor and he studied Philosophy and not Theology.

  90. “In the student directory, a note on the first page explains the absence of street addresses of the homes where students board (the college opposes dorms on principle). “It seems there are people in the community who make a hobby of causing trouble for local Christian families who extend hospitality to N.S.A. students,” reads the disclaimer. “So as a courtesy to these families, and as a hedge against whatever else the ‘Intoleristas’ have up their sleeve, we’re making it a tad bit harder for them.” “Intolerista” is Wilson’s nickname for his liberal critics. Some have filed zoning complaints against N.S.A. host families for supposedly running illegal boarding houses. Rival coffee shops have sprung up. The Christians drink their lattes at Bucer’s, which is outfitted like an English pub and is named after the Reformation theologian Martin Bucer. The Starbucks-like One World Cafe is the reputed liberal hangout. “There are a bunch of people who hate N.S.A.,” says Laura Blakey, a 25-year-old alumna. “I think our Christianity offends them.”


  91. Dee and Deb –

    I keep getting flashes of CJ Mahaney and the history of TAG/PDI/SGM as I read all this history of Doug Wilson and his family . . . I see men who want to be kings and who use scripture to get what they want. They “divide” to conquer – to use some DW language!

  92. Deb, Give it some time for the DW video . Piper took down his I Love Mark Driscoll’s theology’ video That was up for secveral years after all the Driscoll controversy over sodomy and we found out the fired elders tried to get Piper to help intervene with Driscoll going off the deep end since he was one of his mentors.

  93. There is much we can learn from the past, of course – even the Dark Ages weren’t as benighted as popularly thought. But wanting to be “medieval Protestants” is as daft as wanting to be “modern Protestants” – why not just “timeless Christians, who try to live by the Scriptures in the age in which they’re born”?

  94. @ Diane

    I can’t hold much of this against them. In many towns or parts of a town churches and such can be set on by the area residents. Here locally we have a decades long battle where SOME of the neighbors of a local church want to basically make it invisible. Church has been there longer than 99.99% of the neighbors and many in the area attend. But some get really annoyed at the traffic and such and fight zoning battles non stop against anything the church tries to do. Now the church may not be perfect in this situation but I can see where many want to such down any religious setup. And it’s not like this huge red brick building was invisible when they bought a nearby house.

    And I’m also willing to guess that in Moscow the Wilson group tends to strike a holier than thou attitude at times.

  95. “Regardless, when Doug Wilson writes *”And just so you know, out of respect
    for my parents, I am not going to answer any particular questions about Evan in this setting,”* he is using mom and dad as human shields. He had the opportunity to respect his parents long before the *NYT* got wind of the family rift, but he refused.”

    This reminded me of That Bad Dog’s post on Sat 2:13–

    “There is a lovely post on his blog from a few years back where he promotes the idea that anyone who wants to bring up his handling of Sitler is a perpetrator, because by bringing the issue up they are re-victimizing Sitler’s victims. Let me be perfectly clear – Doug Wilson puts people who raise issues about how he handled the original Sitler crisis into the same category as Sitler himself.”

    His parents-human shields; Sitler’s victims- again, his shields.

    So he is criminalizing and calling people perpetrators for dealing with the subject matter?

    Nothing could be so convenient as the silly logic of not discussing because it is just too terrible. There would be no discussion of Wilson’s pedophile scandal at Christ Church had he been so above reproach, as elders are required to be, and had been immediately open and transparent with his congregation instead of witholding the information for 8 months, and had not helped to orchestrate and officiate at the marriage of a man literally sentenced for life; who is the true perpetrator??

  96. But wanting to be “medieval Protestants” is as daft as wanting to be “modern Protestants” — Kolya

    Or trying to go back to “medieval Catholics”, free of the taint of the Protestant Reformation and Council of Trent.

    Or the Salafi & Wahabi movements in Islam, trying to force everything back to “As it was in the Days of the Prophet”.

  97. I hope the event gives Jared Wilson pause to think about his approval of Doug Wilson. The fact that such an utterly strange, unbalanced, and just weird guy from the fringe is being given some kind of platform close to the mainstream should give all the TGC guys and gals something to think about. Discernment is a gift of the spirit that surely must be held by some in the bunch. Time they exercised that.

  98. Just a couple of comments in passing…

    1. I think the book on patriarchalist women was not the Stepford Wives but the Handmaid’s Tale by Margaret Atwood. Some see the book as an attack on Christianity, but Atwood very carefully uses Old Testament-style tropes and, if memory serves, there is nothing about Jesus or Christian salvation in the book.

    But what we do see a lot of is religio-political patriarchy. All women are divided into several classes: Wives, Daughters, Marthas, Aunts, Econowives, Handmaidens and Unwomen. Those of you who have read the book can easily slot Nancy Ann Wilson, her daughters and Doug’s female supporters into the first five classes. Obviously, there are no Handmaids, but I am half-wondering if the poor young woman who was sacrificed by Doug Wilson to a convicted pedophile doesn’t fit.

    And then there are the Unwomen. In Doug Wilson’s world, because I flatly reject his belief system pretty much in toto, I have gone beyond the pale and am most certainly unlike his outwardly compliant wife and daughters, to say nothing of his fawning followers. Wilson and followers probably think I’m a disgusting person unworthy of being called a woman, much less a lady. They’ll have to get in line behind the Scientologists, who see me as a religious bigot because I find their actions to be harmful. (to be continued)

  99. “By the way, I haven’t explained Ms. Evans’ heresy in this post because it’s the usual one chosen by women at war with their nature: she denies the Fatherhood of God, His creation order, and His Law.”

    In other words: “Explain myself? Why should I do THAT? She’s a heretic, dagnabbit! I SAID SO! And besides being a heretic she’s a WOMAN so her opinion doesn’t really exist anyway!”

    I really cannot fathom the Bayly brothers. I mean, I don’t always agree with Rachel Held-Evans either, but they could at least TRY to be civil. But maybe when you’re patriarchs with “unsheathed swords” in the Reconstructionist Christian elite class, all those pesky Biblical commands to be kind, gentle, etc. become optional guidelines.

  100. (continued)

    Where was I at? Oh, yes, Unwomen. It would absolutely not surprise me to learn that Doug Wilson sees his female detractors as Unwomen, which given his obsession with proper sexual roles, is likely equivalent to being Unchristian in his mind. *shrug* Don’t be brought down by his petty sniping, ladies.

    2. Why I care about this.

    I’m not a Christian anymore (complicated, lots of reasons). I don’t have a dog in this fight except that this stuff has an impact on the larger society. I don’t want Doug Wilson’s beliefs regarding women infecting society.

    Which brings me to a larger point–one you ladies have mentioned before: how can these guys be “missional”? More people live in single-person households than ever before and yet the “gospel” of Doug Wilson is patriarchal and family-centered. I don’t recall that the gospel of Jesus was restricted to those in the right kind of living arrangements and having the proper patriarchal sex in the bedroom. No, I think Jesus’ proclamation extended even to Unwomen, even as much as Doug Wilson would deny it.

  101. Re. Rachel Held Evans’ blog – hey, I don’t agree with everything on *this* blog (TWW), yet I hang out here and read and send links to our glamorous blog queens and would have no trouble whatsoever with linking here if I had a religion blog.

    No one writer is going to speak for everyone – that’s just a fact. I hope those of you who are uncomfortable with RHE’s blog will take some time to read posts by her that address issues that you agree on.

    My hunch is that you all have much more in common with RHE than you might think. 😉

  102. @Wendy-

    “How in the world did this rambling, nonsensical, mean-spirited man become a pastor? I ask that in all sincerity.”

    Isn’t he self-ordained? I guess that’s how? He has no theo training, right? — Diane

    i.e. the same way Idi Amin became a doctor: He Proclaimed Himself One.

    And in a lot of the Evangelical Circus, self-ordained (i.e. “Chosen Directly by God”) has prestige over actual “theo training” (i.e. “The Works of Man”). The original Internet Monk said of the mountain churches around him in rural Kentucky, one of the highest praises of a preacher was “He Has NO Book-Larnin’, and He Is LOUD!”

  103. I asked this this morning but maybe it got lost in the shuffle – Does anyone know if Jared Wilson and Douglas Wilson are related to each other?

  104. A man may not always need “book-larnin” to do God’s work, it is true.

    On the other hand, if a man is going to start passing judgements on theology (esp when introducing what appear to be theological novelties) then he had better have plenty of book-larning, and at least a knowledge of Greek, if not Hebrew.

    Personally I think the same applies to the anti-evolution crowd: some of them at least need to try to understand what evolution as a biological process is actually about, rather than trying to impose their own belief of what it means.

    I can’t personally vouch for this, not having read “The God Delusion”, but I believe others have also made the same criticism of Richard Dawkins, namely that his understanding of Christian theology is deficient. If anyone would care to correct me, please do.

  105. numo wrote-

    “My hunch is that you all have much more in common with RHE than you might think.”

    Numo–the first time I even heard about her was a couple of months ago…lol…I don’t read too many blogs, I guess, or as Doug puts it I don’t get out much. I really do not know at all what she believes in.

    I was looking at those commenting more than her actual post. I saw a lot of hurt. A lot of gratitude. I read almost all of the comments. I guess what I am trying to say is that people of all kinds are looking for someone to care for them–to be kind–to not necessarily agree with them but to be a safe place for them to be who they are and cry if they need.

    As Christians we should be the first ones to offer that place of kind refuge. She did that. Instead, it seems there is a lack of that.

  106. Diane – couldn’t agree more! (Though I’ve known about RHE’s blog for a while; haven’t done much reading there, though.)

    My comment was more in response to some of TWW’s regulars who have problems with some of her beliefs – see upthread.

  107. HUG,

    Wow, yes! I get that. I think it applies in the case of Doug Wilson. I grew up in a rather rural area of NC. I have always been fond of education and academia, and it’s hard to relate to folks who refuse to look at truth and look at things objectively. In country churches and even Christian circles in which education is important as long it’s a particular endorsed education, I’ve seen a disdain for education and formal training. They’re PROUD of a preacher who has had no formal education and hasn’t associated himself with the real world and with people outside their mold. It’s far more important to say you’ve received a “calling” by God and rub elbows with the right people in the church to climb the ministry ladder.

  108. “RHE [Rachel Held Evans] doesn’t speak for me and where I’m at in trying to decide for myself about these issues. I much more identify with the writings from Wade Burleson, Jon Zens, Internet Monk, and Frank Viola.”

    My sentiments exactly! Thanks for this great commentary.

    Ditto for me, Sallie. And great thoughts as always, my friend.”

    I am in total agreement with this.

  109. Tim Bayly put my response to his post in a proper blog entry. http://baylyblog.com/comment/31489#comment-31489

    But after my second response he immediately shuts down debate claiming that he won’t debate over the word of God. Fair enough. I don’t want to do that in depth either. But there was plenty else to talk about, mostly regarding the matter at hand, but I’m a little surprised he clammed up like that. Any thoughts?

  110. Anne, he clammed up because deep down, he HAS no response, not one based on the Word, anyway. He also has a history of shutting down and/or banning any intelligent woman who comments there. Watch how the women who post there again and again pretty much just kiss up to him. He puts up with far more pushback from men than women … can’t stand to “take it” from a woman, it totally unmans him.

  111. The Baylys are nuttier than Lord High Admiral Pecan of the Great Navy of Mongongo.

    Like Vision Forum, they have long passed Irony Central and are now living, breathing self-parodies.

    That they fully expect to be taken seriously – and are, apparently – is a sign of just how far things have deteriorated in so-called Reformed circles.

  112. This business about self- ordination cracks me up. Look at that whole R.C. Sprout debacle a few years back. Now he is part of theCovenant Presbyterian Chutch denomination James McDonald helped to start when they were both removed from the RPCGA. Then theY self ordain but the whole authority structure within these micro presbyteries is such a high place. Of course Sproul had his credentials laundered by Doug Wilson along the way. And they all demand recognition of their authority.

  113. thatmom – I think we should take a page out of their books. Let’s see…

    Tomorrow you and I should do a conference call. I’ll quiz you about your theology and you quiz me. I think fifteen minutes each should easily be enough.

    Then we’ll create a new denomination, ordain each other, and start calling each other Rev. Karen and Rev. Sallie.

    Then I have some time on Thursday. If you are free, we’ll establish a college. You can be President (out of deference to being my elder). I’ll be a professor.

    Anyone else want to join us?

  114. I just left this comment on the first Bayly post:

    “First, Rachel was far from the first person to respond – in fact, she entered the discussion pretty late. Second, who are you to declare whether or not someone is saved. That is for God alone. The fact you think you know anybody’s heart speaks volumes – and what they say isn’t pretty.”

    For anyone who doesn’t want to read the actual Bayly links (I don’t blame you) he says that everyone who disagreed with the Wilson quote is a child of the devil, and that all of us who criticised Wilson were only doing so because RHE told us to.
    I doubt I’ll get a serious response (or any response), but we’ll see.

  115. Blogtender! Another round of Wade Burleson, Jon Zens, Internet Monk, and Frank Viola, please!
    FYI When last in beautiful downtown Moscow, I purchased my Americanos at the One World Cafe. Dat makes me an intolorista, I suppose…..

  116. Pam

    Child of the devil, hmmmm. Well, from what I can see, The Devil Went Up to Idaho (from Georgia).

  117. If I lived in Moscow, I promise you that I would print “intolerista” t-shirts and I would wear them Everytime I went into Bucer’s. And i would sit down with a coffee, plop open Karl Barth, and make certain every passer by saw me surfing RHE’s blog.

  118. Numo @ 1:45 pm –

    I’m with you 🙂 and there’s no ONE blogger that I agree with 100%. No offense meant Our Lovely Blog Queens!

  119. As the child of academics and a card-carrying nerd of the highest order, the Scared Of Ejakayshun subcurrent in some Christian circles just weirds me out. Especially the denial of education for girls because good little Christian Stepford wives have no need for knowing anything beyond cooking, cleaning, and how to buy the groceries. There seems to be a fear – almost to the level of paranoia – of allowing anybody to hear any view that is not preapproved from on high (i.e. by the pastor). Frankly, they seem scared to actually use their God-given brains.
    During the mutuality week over on RHE’s blog a little while back one of these ultra patriarchalists told me that women shouldn’t vote, shouldn’t work, and most definitely SHOULD NOT EVER get tertiary education, because all of these things are just too hard for our puny little minds and lead us away from God.

  120. Pam,

    The same is true of men with degrees from “non-approved” seminaries. They get treated like lepers.

  121. A thought just occurred to me on why these types are so afraid of education, science, etc – it’s all about asking questions. Science, in essence, is all about asking the question why? Asking why is the raison d’etre for science, but anathema for this crowd, so of course education and science are capital-B Bad.

  122. Scot T,

    In the unlikely event I find myself in Moscow, Idaho (oh, the irony), I will sit down in the cafe wearing a NOW t-shirt with VonHarnack or Kasemann.

  123. After reading about the extreme Patriarchs and what they preach regarding women and sexuality, I can’t help but wonder if they’ve contracted a full-on case of vagina envy. One would think so the way they carry on like frat-boys over penetration, war, and conquest.

  124. Muff Potter – love the vagina envy suggestion, it does fit very well.

    And if I ever end up in Moscow, Idaho, I’ll make sure to wear a t-shirt I have from a music festival that includes one band name with both blasphemy and swearing in it.

  125. For me, the most frustrating thing about this whole Doug/Jared Wilson thing isn’t the fact that there are crackpots out there leading cult-like churches that oppress and degrade women and, to add insult to injury, indulge in pretensions of credibility by leeching off Scottish history. Sure, that’s disheartening. But the most difficult thing to accept is that we are not supposed to be angry about it. I’ve read so many comments that Rachel Held Evans and others are responding over-emotionally and without enough grace. That Wade’s reaction was ‘overwrought’. It’s as if people don’t care and don’t see how terrible it is to blame egalitarian women for rape and rape culture because they aren’t submissive enough. How terribe it is to tell me and all other women that we are there to submit, to be conquered, to be colonized. We are supposed to preface our responses with ‘Doug Wilson is wonderful but…’ or ‘I see your point about us egalitarians causing rape, but…’, or even ‘thank you for devoting a whole blog post to the subject of us women, but…’.

  126. Sophie, we’re meant to grovel, kiss their feet, and thank them for lowering themselves to addressing us, because we are unworthy.

  127. i’ll just say again what i said somewhere else:

    am i a jerk for thinking: too little, too late? by deleting the posts, he also gets to hide what he said and describe it however he wants after the fact. not to mention the condescending comments he and doug made are gone for good. not to mention, the apology basically reads “i’m sorry i didn’t give enough of a preface so you guys would understand what i was saying (what i said wasn’t wrong, you just didn’t understand it), and i’m sorry if anyone was hurt (i didn’t do anything wrong, if you were hurt, oops!).


  128. To our readers

    We have been called “feminist heretics” over at the Bayly blog. Please know that we are so excited since it is well known that the Bayly crowd have been granted the keys of authority to proclaim heresy in this world. Here is the response that I left over there .


    “Wow- Thank you for calling us “feminist heretics.” We will proudly add it to our list of “What the world is saying about The Wartburg Watch.” I personally prefer “Philistine” or “Assyrian,” both on the list. However, I am waiting desperately for Amalekite. Those suckers really kept stirring the pot. Perhaps you could oblige us in your next post? It would mean a lot.

    Just so you know, we are deeply devoted Christian women who stayed at home to raise our children. If you wish to call us heretics, you will have to answer to the One Who we both know and love.

    May God bless you all as you seek to follow Him.Please know that you are always welcome to visit and comment on our blog.”

  129. I asked if Bayly was claiming to be God, seeing as he is so certain about who is or isn’t saved, something only God can know.

  130. Hmm…after reading the blog posts by by the Baylys & Wilson’s daughter about Rachel Held Evans – then seeing a few of the comments here – and thinking about since yesterday… 😉

    I would be surprised if any of the regular commenters here or at RHE’s blog, and any blog like these, agreed on everything. Nobody agrees on everything. But I have both the Wartburg Watch and Rachel Held Evans in my blogroll on my blog. Here is what I see that RHE and TWW have in common that causes me to read regularly:

    1. They are passionate about seeking and finding truth.

    2. The are welcoming to commenters from diverse backgrounds and are not afraid of conversation – or even debate.

    3. VERY IMPORTANT TO ME: They are a safe place for victims of spiritual abuse to comment and find comfort.

    4. They are passionate in defending the abused.

    5. God is a central part of the quest for truth.

    I agree with NUMO – I think there is a lot more in common here than might be immediately evident. 🙂

  131. Amalekites!!!!

    Wait – do you want me to come with reasons, or is it enough to just assign the label?

  132. To every raving patriarch nutjob, any woman who doesn’t agree with him or her ( yes, there are raving patriarch burkina of the female persuasion) is a feminist heretic. I never cease to be amazed at the lack of humility and inability to show even a smidgeon of grace toward those with opposing views!

    Here in an interesting story…you all will appreciate it but it would completely be out of the realm of understanding of the patriocentrists….

    A number of years ago I met a man in my local Tastmaster’s club who held views that for the most part were the direct opposite of mine. But because we were both civil grown-ups, we set aside our differences. Over the years we became good friends and even arrived at  a point where we would often talk about things we both saw as terrible social issues, though we had radically different views about them.  Many times we could even appreciate each other’s perspective. 

    A couple years ago this man was diagnosed with a terminal and inoperable brain tumor. He asked his wife to contact me and ask if I would be willing to give the eulogy at his funeral. I was deeply moved at this request and spent the next year before he died grieving the loss of my friend and thinking about what I might say. When the time came and I wrote my speech, my main point was that this man’s friendship had added so much to my life, in part, because he helped me understand the other side of dozens of issues. In some instances, I saw how my response as a Christian had not been as gracious as it should have been. Getting to know and caring about someone so different than me had enriched my life immeasurably.

    All this to say, those who want to cruelly dismiss the thoughts and convictions of others and refuse friendship to those who come from a different perspective are the losers. And often I think they miss God’s best for them.

    Sorry this was so long.

  133. Note: My iPad auto corrected the phrase “patriarch nut job of the female persuasion” with “patriarch burkina.”. For some reason that cracks me up!

  134. To follow up on Sallie’s comment above, could anyone suggest one or two of the best “serious, scholarly articles or books” which defend the egalitarian view? I am a complementarian but willing to look at the other side. Thanks.

  135. Day late and a dollar short here, but I must also throw in my thanks to Sallie & others who point out, while Rachel Held Evans did write an amazing response, she doesn’t really speak for me either.

    Entirely too liberal at times. I do like some of her stuff. Just not most of it.

  136. Steve Herreld,
    I personally don’t subscribe to something called “egalitarianism” or “complementarianism” but firmly believe in the Headship of Christ and the brotherhood and priesthood of all believers. 
    These three aren’t officially “scholarly”‘ but very readable and immediately come to mind: 
    Frank Viola’s    “Re-imagining a Woman’s Role in the Church”
    Gilbert Bilezikian’s    “I Believe in Male Headship”
    And from two old (more ways than one) friends from NORTH IDAHO George Davis and Michael Clark, my personal favorite, “Brotherhood.  Male and Female created he them.”

  137. Steve –

    I’ve compiled a list of books, articles, and websites on my own site. It is made up of things I’ve found interesting and thought-provoking. It is not exhaustive and I’m sure other people can recommend additional resources. I think what you will want to read depends on which passage or passages you find most problematic for egalitarians. People could probably be more helpful in recommending resources if you specify what you would most like to focus on in your reading.


  138. Steve
    I have found the website christianthinktank.com to be extremely useful, especially his series on ‘Women in the heart of God’. The author has done copious research and references everything he says.

  139. thatmom on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:28 PM
    To every raving patriarch nutjob, any woman who doesn’t agree with him or her ( yes, there are raving patriarch burkina of the female persuasion) is a feminist heretic.

    What about if you’re a man who doesn’t agree with them?

  140. Steve –

    I found Rebecca Merrill Groothuis’s ‘Good News For Women: A Biblical Picture of Gender Equality’ very, very helpful. It settled things for me some years ago!

    At the end of Scot McKnight’s ‘The Blue Parakeet’, he also deals briefly with women and church ministry.

    Haven’t read it all, but ‘Liberating Tradition: Women’s Identity and Vocation in Christian Perspective’ by Kristina LaCelle-Peterson seems like a good resource too.

    Other authors/resources: Gordon Fee, Catherine Kroeger, and the website of Christians for Biblical Equality.

    Thanks for being open to other perspectives, Steve. It warms my little egalitarian heart 😉

  141. Richard, I’m not sure what they call that. Probably something that implies the guy has been emasculated. Haven’t had coffee yet so will think about that one.

  142. Thanks for the recommendations. I just ordered Grootheis’s book from the library and also requested they buy “Men and Women in the Church: Building Consensus on Christian Leadership” by Sarah Sumner. 🙂

  143. Q: What about if you’re a man who doesn’t agree with them

    A: A coward, a cad, a conniver

    Tim Bayly has a pathological hard-on for the word “connive.” Dump all of his blog posts into one of those computer programs that measures the frequency of certain words, and I’ll be connive shows up in nearly half of those posts. To him, the whole world is forever conniving. Quite frankly, I’m shocked that he hasn’t used this word in any of his posts responding to Wilsonx2Gate.

    He also loves to denounce people — especially men — who don’t agree with his views as cowards. In his world, there is no such thing as a principled opposition to patriarchy; it can only be the result of cowardice and rebellion*.

    *another of his favorite words

  144. Christians for Biblical Equality is an evangelical organization (check their statement of faith). They publish an academic journal called “The Priscilla Papers” which has many articles that address different parts of scripture, their interpretation, etc. The articles are fully referenced and are readable for anyone with a college education and/or the patience to cypher out the academic language. Back issues are available on a searchable CD. It is an excellent resource.

    They also publish a more popular style magazine “Mutuality”; the most recent issue contains articles on how to move the church toward full acceptance and participation of women.

  145. Well now that’s disturbing. Just found out that Tim Bayly used to be the executive director of CBMW. And that organization is allegedly “moderate” complementarian? Ummm…

  146. The first rule in politics is to not let the opposition define you. In other words make sure you define yourself before the other side gets to try.

  147. Hester, Bayly quit CBMW because it was not patriarchal enough. Truly. He went on record with his reasons for resigning.

  148. Jeanette

    Rachel Held Evams is important even if we might differ a bit theologically. Why? Sher represents the thoughts of the youger generation who are approaching church. This generation does not feel the need to go to church. We need to hear what she is saying. Ourc churches are losing memebers by the droves. Atheism and other belef systems are on the rise. So what if we disagree on some points. She is worth listening to.heck, I spent 5 years regularly reading a blog for those who have left the faith. I diagree with them but they ahve taught me so much and iI am forever grateful to ExChristians even thought i wish they could see Jesus.

    Bayly, along with Kamilla Ludwig (she is one difficult lass (her term)) scream doctrine but do so at the expense of understanding. We want to HEAR what people think. We want to dialogue in order to understand. We are not here for a doctrinal screed although, in many ways, we are quite conservative. 

    Thank you for your terribly kind words-the best is that this is a safe place for those who have been hurt. That makes my day.

  149. M

    Well, the label is enough to allow us to place it onto our ongoing list. However, if you wish to define it, that will be added. It opens up all sorts of possibilities.  As corrallaries, we could be called Agag and Haman. I personally lean toward Agag since, by placing a space after the first letter, it basically descrbes what this is all about.  🙂

  150. Dee – It’s not just young people who are leaving the institutional churches. My spouse and I are in our 50’s and we left about a year ago with no intention of ever returning. We know quite a few others who are 40+ years old who are of the same mind. I don’t agree with everything RHE says, either, but I do enjoy reading her blog for the same reasons as you.

  151. thatmom

    You wonderfully moving story about your friend and his dying wish that you would give the eulogy reminds me of Dr Francis Collin, a wonderful Christian that I admire. He became a friend of the well-known atheist,Christopher Hitches as he fought his cancer. Hitchens wrote beautifully of his love for Collins. Collins stayed by Hitchens side to the end. Hitches claimed he would never have a deathbed conversion and we have no indication that he did so. But, who knows? Thank you for being such a witness of love!

  152. Lindsey

    I do not always agree with RHE. I want to make that very clear. But she speaks for a new generation of young adults and conveys their concerns quite well.We must listen because the church is losing the young people. We may not agree with her conclusions but God may help us to take some of her observations and rethink how we convey things.

    I plan, sometime in the next two months to do a series on homosecxuality. It will have a unique connection to Evan’s “Ask a Gay Christian.” However, unlike Evans, you will clearly see that TWW’s stand fits squarely within orthodox Christian thinking while rasing compassion at the same time. Pray for me because i think it might provide some insight without straying from Biblical admonitions.

  153. DaveAA

    That matches my own views on the subject, For me it boils down to two things. radical servanthood and playing to one’s gifts, regardless of gender. It this was allowed, there would be more balance than we see today. 

  154. Sallie

    Apparently, over the weekend, we had quite a few visitors who came through your site to this. Thank you!

  155. Richar

    It is my understanding that you, too, can be a feminist heretic since men who support the feminist movement can say they are feminist.

  156. @ Dee:

    You might want to check out a blog called Gay Subtlety. It’s run by two gay Christian men who are committed to the celibate life and very frank about their struggles. (Plus they’re hilarious.) One of their first posts was called “My Gay Theology” and it’s quite informative. Also Warren Throckmorton, the professor who co-wrote the recent rebuttal to David Barton’s Jefferson book, writes a lot about the drawbacks of “reparative therapy” (trying to get gay people to “turn straight”).




  157. Hester

    These guys use the term “soft” complementarian. Can you imagine what serious complementarian looks like?

  158. Moniker

    I stand corrected. In fact, I need to find some stats on those over the age of 30 who have left the church.

  159. Hester

    There are serious problems with reparative therapy. It have been shown to be successful in very few cases and, unfortunately, has caused great harm on other cases. Christian Medical Dental Assocaition did a wonderful CD by a doctor who left the homosexual lifestyle and is curretnly celibate. This doctor made an important point. Christians seem to want to convert homosexuals to heterosexuals more than they want to convert them to Christ. This is about Jesus. Coming to Christ does not grow a limb on an amputee. Neither does He necessarily heal all those who are homosexual in orientation. But he does forgive them them just like the rest of us.

    The question that I want to doeal with is this: How do we as a church handle this? I have many stories to share, especially about a dear man from England who had a horrible thing happen to him as a result of his SGM church in England. This story kept me awake for most of the night.

  160. I don’t know how the Baylys label themselves…I know they don’t like the word complementarian. I also know that lots of patriocentrists love the Bayly blog and often quote them. In fact, Jennie Chancey and Stacy McDonald credit the Baylys for training them in gender roles in the introducation to their book Passionate Housewives. Jennie is also the owner of the blog Ladies Against Feminism. The Bayly influence is far reaching.

  161. Evolution of a male “Feminist Heretic”– Rosey Grier!
    Football player… Check.
    Ordained minister… Double check.
    Bodyguard who wrestles gun from crazed gunman…triple check.
    Gunman has just murdered a Kennedy… Cancel that third one.
    Known as “Gentle Giant”… Startin’ to sound like one of them soft complementarians.
    Sings “It’s alright to cry”… Probably not a “real” man.
    Publishes “Needlepoint for Men”… Definitely a feminist.
    Says, “I just want everybody to know that God loves them and He wants the best for them and they should get to know Him.”… Heretic!!!!

    Actually I like Rosey much better than his feminist cousin Germaine or masculinist cousin J D.

  162. Doug Wilson’s response was just flat-out bizarre. (I know this should not be a surprise). His reaction of “Oh, they’re just trying to deny Biblical truth” puzzles me.

    What the argument revolved around was

    1. Pointing out that the wording used to describe sex was violent and un-Christ-like, and

    2. Questioning whether 1 Corinthians 7 deconstructs notions of hierarchy in sex.

    How are EITHER of those two premises meant to tear down scripture?? You could be a complimentarian and still be arguing for both of those premises. In fact, the second premise is precisely ABOUT whether WILSON is the one ignoring scripture!!

  163. sad observer

    Yep, that’s what everyone who disagrees with them is doing-ignoring Scripture. I got up today and said “I think I shall ignore Scripture.”  He is teading on dangerous grounds here.

  164. SMG
    Oh, no! didn’t know about that one! The Formerly Fearsome Fourth of a Foursome might even make it on MD’s “special” worship leader list!

  165. dee – as you already know, I am 50+ and have (for a while, at least)left the church, though by “the church” I mean evangelical/charismatic circles.

    Still, I am not attending anywhere at this point, though I might, provided I can find a place similar to the one that Rachel Held Evans is looking for.

    Also, in all good conscience, I think it is (perhaps) a bit misleading to describe one’s stance (yours, mine, RHE’s, whoever’s) on gay people as “orthodox” or not. When I think of doctrinal orthodoxy, the first things that come to my mind are both the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds. There’s nary a mention of sexuality of any kind there… nor should there be, I think. (Why I believe that is whole long post topic, so I’ll just leave the details out for now.)

    I guess another place that I look is… Jesus’ statement on the two greatest commandments. Again, no mention of sexuality of any kind.

  166. Numo, orthodoxy is not determined not by the creeds alone but by the entirety of Scripture. The Scriptures are clear on homosexuality. One cannot call good what God calls evil, or vice versa, and still be a Christian. The condition of homosexuality is not sinful, but homosexual acts are.

  167. Nicholas:

    As is pride, greed, overeating, envy, lust, jealousy, demeaning your spouse, not coming to the aid of the least of God’s children when hungry, naked, lonely, imprisoned, or otherwise abused. But we do not hold those people up to the abuse churches apply to homosexual acts. There is a huge double standard.

  168. Numo –

    The blog that Hester referenced above at 10:43 am looks interesting and helpful. I did only read the first post, but it looks to be a place for me to gain some understaning.

  169. Arce, for some people, there is a double standard no doubt. That doesn’t mean we ignore the Biblical teaching on this or any subject.

  170. @ Dave AA

    You know, he just turned 80 last week, but I’m sure he could still kick Driscoll’s ass clear to Montana.


    NOTE: I erroneously posted this comment over at Anthnony Bradley’s blog, where I was busy defending the honor of TWW. I hope they realize it was a mistake!

  171. Numo

    I will be writing about this at length. Part of the reason that homosexuality was not included in the Creeds, along with pedophilia, alcoholis, drug abuse,etc. is most likely due to the fact that there things were a given in that cultures. The creeds also emphaiszed core beliefs not behaviors.

    I promise not to make my posts merely  emphasis on what I might consider core beliefs in behavior. Instead, I am going to circles around and come in a back door. You may not agree with me on a couple of items but i think you might be sympathetic to my intent.

  172. Nicholas

    I am in agreement with you. That will not be the emphasis of my post, but, inorder to do what I want to do, I will need to state upfront my beliefs so they don’t muddy the waters. I plan to discuss the trials and pain surrounding this difficult issue.  It is going to take me a couple of weeks to get in contact with a few people and then design my armor.

  173. We don’t exclude any of the others from the rites of the church. We do not exclude them from fellowship (the obese are allowed to eat at the church supper, for example). We have preachers who practice what has all the appearance of greed or avarice. And the percentage of church budgets and time spent on the “least of these”, the homeless, hungry, in need of clothes, in prison, etc. is abysmal. Yet we have time to condemn the homosexual and to spend time and money on campaigns to deny them the secular civil rights everyone else enjoys. And the joke used to be that the deacons met between Sunday School and Church on the sidewalk outside the building where they could smoke.

  174. Nicholas – respectfully… I think we need to agree to disagree. And “we” is not meant (on my part) to be all-inclusive.

    Dee, I have no doubt that we’ll disagree! 😉 But i am deeply troubled by those (not you!) by those who make faith all about keeping rules (of course, they get to define those rules) and not at all about love, grace and what Jesus says are the greatest commandments.

  175. Dee, I do wonder about part of this statement –

    …along with pedophilia, alcoholis, drug abuse,etc. is most likely due to the fact that there things were a given in that cultures.

    alcohol and drug abuse in ancient times – ? I’m not sure if you meant to say exactly that, though, which is one of the reasons I’m cogitating here…

  176. To add to what Arce said (just a bit), yeah… we’ll look the other way about a LOT of things so long as the person doing them is straight. If they’re LGBT – even if they have never had sex with anyone else – they get dumped on, and hard.

    Just for their sexual orientation.

    Re. Warren Throckmorton, his thinking has changed over the years, as he used to believe in so-called “reparative therapy” but doesn’t anymore. Warren is more (ahem) conservative than I am on some of this stuff, and yet… he is the one who raised the hue and cry in this country over the still-undecided-on legislation in Uganda that would make homosexuality (the orientation) a capital crime. Part of the reason he is so vocal has to do with the fact that many American xtians (The Family, aka The Fellowship + Lou Engle and some former Exodus board members, among others) have been promoting that very thing in Uganda. (The Family has a branch there, and the man who keeps pushing for the anti-homosexuality bill to be passed is a very important member of it…)

  177. There is a huge double standard.

    Indeed there is, but it took many years before I came to see it as such.

  178. Numo –

    “Exodus(?)” board members. Is Exodus a specific group? Have not heard of that one.

  179. @ Dee and Numo:

    Yes, I know about the problems with reparative therapy. It’s pretty hard to still believe in it as an option for everybody after reading Throckmorton’s blog. If someone wants to pursue it of their own free will, then more power to them, but it doesn’t work for most people.

    Your point that many Christians want a gay person to become straight more than they want them to become a Christian is totally correct. Also, for many, becoming straight and becoming Christian are the same thing, so if the gay person becomes a Christian but still refers to themselves as “gay” (even if they’re not acting on it at all), their Christian friends start to wonder if they’re really saved. And that’s not good. If an alcoholic got saved but still recognized and referred to himself as an alcoholic, we’d have no problem, but when it’s a gay person – hello double standard!

    And yes, that bill in Uganda is horrible. Uganda has enough problems (with AIDS, etc.) without adding that to the mix. Frankly it doesn’t surprise me that Lou Engle is involved with that, NAR bigwig that he is. (Probably his way of trying to exorcize Uganda’s “national demons” or some such crap.) I’m pretty sure he was the (scary) guest speaker who came to the camp on the documentary Jesus Camp.

  180. Hester: see Slouching Toward Kampala: Uganda’s Deadly Embrace of Hate (plus follow-up articles) – fwiw, the writers have worked closely with Warren on these issues.

    “reparative therapy”: it’s been pretty well debunked by everyone except the people who invented it in the 1st place (like Joseph Nicolosi).

    Exodus is taking a different tack these days, and lots of “ex-gay” ministries have been leaving Exodus as a result. Follow this link for up-to-date info.: http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/

  181. Re the “givens” in the culture of the ancient world, I’m not sure whether Dee meant that they were accepted or completely taboo. My understanding is that there was plenty of drinking (indeed, some of the festivals celebrated the god of the vine, etc – Bacchus?), and also that pederasty was widely practised, esp among the Greeks and with young boys, if some of the Greek poets are to be believed (and even Plato when recalling Socrates). However the Old Testament certainly condemned the one and didn’t approve of drunkenness much, although there was no condemnation against strong drink per se.

    The creeds were written I think as a safeguard against error and as a basic sort of catechism. This might sound quite simple but even today a JW, for example, could not in good conscience assent to the Nicene Creed. The real big issues facing the early church were not so much sexuality (important as that is) but the Person and Work of Christ.

  182. “reparative therapy”: I think it’s been debunked and discarded by everyone aside from its most fervent advocates (like Joseph Nicolosi).

    Exodus has been changing tack, and as a result, many “ex-gay” ministries have been leaving.

    For both topics + more, check out http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/

  183. Kolya – I hear you re. drunkenness, but that’s not the same as alcoholism. Still wondering what drugs they might have abused back in the heyday of the Roman Empire, though… aside from (possibly?) opium.

  184. Hester (and all) – a LOT of NAR people have a stake in Uganda and have for at least a decade, most likely much longer. I can point you to Jeff Sharlet’s Atlantic Monthly article on Uganda and The Family (also reprinted in his most recent book C Street) but unfortunately cannot send you copies of sermons I heard at Christ Our Shepherd Church in D.C. about Uganda, “strategic-level spiritual warfare,” conferences featuring Ugandan speakers and/or the unrelenting focus on “What God is Doing in Uganda.”

    My info. on that church and its NAR ties to Uganda is 10 years old, and – as I said – I can’t provide the actual talks and sermons, but I know what I heard.

  185. Hi Numo. I remember hearing a speaker at an “alternative history” conference (don’t worry, it wasn’t Holocaust denial!) promoting the view that the Pharaohs took psychedelics, but other than that, I don’t know. Stuff like peyote doesn’t really grow in the Old World, at least in the Mediterranean, as far as I’m aware. However some shamans in the northern latitudes may have been aware of the hallucinatory qualities of psyocybins if the stories are to be believed. But generally I think the Ancient World was more fond of the grape. Also may it be that you would have had to buy more powerful stuff from a pharmacist, which might have been beyond most people’s pockets or indeed inclination?

    Re the Ugandan issue, has anyone read “A Church At War” by Stephen Bates? I don’t agree totally with Bates’ viewpoint – his handling of Scripture was a bit vague in my opinion – but it was an interesting spotlight on some of the politics going on in the Anglican church. You can read some reviews at http://www.amazon.com/Church-War-Anglicans-Homosexuality/dp/1850434808.

  186. SMG:
    I read the comments on Bradley post first, and decided you must have had a vision of me reading it. Since you’re gifted, just like MD and his Montana donkey, I’d like your vision of how the GCPW kerfuffle might finally end.
    The very partial story so far (feel free to add):
    Broccophiliac says:
    Broccoli is nefariously poisoning our culture! It was created by Satan! I’m sorry the growers of broccoli can’t all be executed under our modern, permissive laws!
    Puzzled 1 says: I’m puzzled. Isn’t broccoli good for us?
    Broccophiliac: if you don’t know, no wonder you’re puzzled, and I can’t help you! Read my books!
    Puzzled 2 says: And it tastes good, too!
    Puzzled 3 says: Cite one study which indicates broccoli is harmful!
    Puzzled 4 says: The Bible says God created broccoli!
    Broccophiliac: Oh, Where’s the Poetry!! Verily, if you oafs understood Bolivian, you’d know that even my name means I LOVE BROCCOLI!!! I only want to serve it! And protect it! Under a very thick layer of sauce. I’d recommend hollandaise, but you barbarians have the specific density of osmium!
    BP: You bedwettin’ broccoli babes barely believe the Bible! (Oh, the alliteration!)
    Brocco Bros: This whole souffle was connived and cooked up by conniving heretical broccoliists, and wishy-washy namby-pamby balanced diet purveyors, who need to apologize for apologizing to heretics! All those rabid vegetarians are gonna get arterioscleroses from not eating more fatty red meat! Likely to all drop over dead..

  187. Numo

    The Romans were well known for their drunken orgies and had use of illegal substances. The Jewish people stood in stark contrast. Paul even discussed not being drunk with wine. Please fogive me since I am hot and having such a great day.

  188. RE: dee on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:39 PM,

    You and Deb are like Deborah and Jael of old. Better yet, you blog queens remind me of Jack Nicholson in the film “Hoffa”, where he exhorts his striking teamsters to hang in there until management caves:

    “We’re gettin’ to em’ now!…”

    And so it goes with the extreme Patriarchs. Over time and with some poetic justice, the Baylys will wind up just like Sisera (metaphorically of course).

  189. @ Numo:

    Oh yeah, the NAR is an ugly, ugly can of worms. I did get the impression from reading about them (mostly Talk2Action) that they were big in Uganda. But then again, just about every Christian group has tentacles in Uganda nowadays. It seems to be the “hot” sub-Saharan mission field at the moment.

  190. Muff
    Jimmy Hoffa?? Problem: I want my kids to know where I am buried. However, with the way things are going in the church, I may disappear one of these days and it won’t be from the Rapture.

  191. OK, about those drunken orgies: I think that was an upper-class thing; who else could have afforded them? And *not* something you likely would have seen during the Roman Republic. (As opposed to under the reigns of some of the later emperors.)

    Also, the Greeks and Romans tended to water down their wine, so it would have taken a lot more to get drunk than in our day (since we don’t do that.)

    But I’ll have to do some re-checking re. sources on Roman history.

    As for drug abuse (other than alcohol), I honestly don’t know what they would have had, unless the super-rich were importing opium from northern India and Afghanistan, which was possible, I guess – Alexander the Great conquered parts of both, but didn’t stay.

  192. RE: Hester on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 10:43 AM,

    Thanks for the link to Throckmorton. I’ve been looking for sources other than Chris Rodda & Brooke Allen who will stand up to and debunk Barton’s twaddle about the American experiment being founded on the Bible & the Christian religion.

    Out here in Southern Cal. there’s a well known (Evangelical Right) radio personality who likes to push this stuff and has even had Barton in studio on his show. Glad to know there’s push-back coming from more than just Rodda & Allen.

  193. Anon1 – “http://sbcvoices.com/what-to-do-with-egalitiarians/
    Check out the comments. Poor Jared. You all are meanies!”

    This is a particularly special comment: In fact, my wife is the perfect example of the text, “a helper who complements.” It was not, “a helper who is equal.” Personally, I don’t think women should be burdened with an equal share of responsibility.

    Women shouldn’t be ‘burdened’ with equality?!

  194. I checked some more and apparently Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius became addicted to opium that was prescribed for him by a physician.

    I don’t doubt that there are various plants used as intoxicants in the ancient Mediterranean world, but there seems to be less information about that than – oddly – psychedelics used in Native American cultures, I suppose more because many of these societies and their habits were written about in modern languages. (Mainly Spanish and Portuguese.) That makes the information about past and present more accessible than is the case when dealing with much older forms of languages as well as languages that are no longer used. (Earlier forms of Greek and Latin.) Plus there’s a lot of difficulty in translating ancient texts of any kind, in terms of figuring out what words actually mean, especially when they only show up in the context of a single work or a handful of works.

    We cannot figure out everything by context alone.

  195. Kolya – thanks for the link to that book; will have to hunt for a copy to read.

    Re. Egypt again, I had forgotten about the blue lotus – afaik, though, nobody knows what that was or what it did, exactly. It shows up in a lot of paintings, though.

  196. “Personally, I don’t think women should be burdened with an equal share of responsibility.”

    Really? And yet virtually all complementarian marriages I know do endow the wife with equal responsibility. In most of those marriages, she is responsible for the house, the cooking, the cleaning, the majority of the children’s upbringing (including the nasty jobs like diapers, staying up all night, cleaning puke, and figuring out what to do when the kid gets in trouble at school) and keeping everyone’s schedule straight, as well as keeping her husband in clean clothes and the refrigerator stocked (and the zillion other errands you have to do for a household every single day). In fact, of all the complementarian marriages I know, I can say WITH CERTAINTY that the wife is pulling her share IF NOT MORE of the responsibility for their corporate family life.

    If they want to define “responsibility” as only making “final” decisions, having a “visions” for the family, and providing an income, I think we can agree that my afore-mentioned list of comp wife duties is equally burdened with responsibility, but in a more concrete manner.

    Please. My dad is a pastor and he’s seen all kinds of families in this world, and he will be the first to tell you that women show a natural ability to handle dirty work before their husbands do.

  197. Ok I’m behind the times here, just catching up, and now I have to find some really strong disinfectant to bleach the image of Doug Wilson ‘conquering’ ‘penetrating’ and ‘planting’ his feminine garden. Good grief. Can’t these guys not talk about sex for just a few minutes? What is with them? I don’t find a majority of run of the mill Christians obsessing about sex. Only the guys who are making sure they tithe their dill and cumin in the area of Biblical headship.

  198. a couple of thoughts:
    I understand various herbal mixtures (no idea of what) were used by priests and priestesses to induce trances — I think some of them may have been small amounts of known poisons. The oracle of Delphi, for instance, was supposed to breathe drugged smoke to be in the trance to receive the words of Apollo. That’s why they only did these things at certain times — they needed time to recover from the drugs, which were known to be dangerous.

    As I was reading through, one thing kept puzzling me. We kept getting told that we’d understand if we’d read the book, but we women aren’t supposed to read the book until our husbands have vetted it for us .. so what are we supposed to do? Cicular logic always makes me dizzy.

    Dave AA: I HATE broccoli. I am a feminist heretic. But verily my husband loves the stuff!

    and Paula, I hate to say it, but I am more and more convinced that there is not a very large distance between patriarchy and phallic worship. They can’t help obsessing about sex, it’s how they identify themselves. I could put it more crudely, but I don’t want to go there

  199. Delphi *might* be about the various Oracles being exposed to gases from below the earth’s surface that were vented in or near the temple.

    *Might.* It’s a good idea – with some hard evidence – but ultimately, there’s no way to be certain…

  200. could well be. I do have a hazy recollection of something I once read, but I would have to do some research. Or, of course, I could be muddling it up with something else 🙂

  201. What a great discussion, fabulous comments. Arce and Numo, I’m with you on this one ! I’ll read also the links Hester posted.

    Wendy on Sat Jul 21, 2012 at 02:56 PM said:
    “Can you give me (and others who may not have read much about the issue) some insight into how patriocentricity became a woman-driven movement?”

    I’m very curious for some insights also. I don’t think ‘women keeping women down’ is just in Christian circles, it’s bigger than that. I don’t know what Dee thinks, but in nursing there is an expression about how they are ‘cannibalistic: they eat their young’. Horizontal violence is very prevalent. It was put to me that what could be the strongest union in Australia (more than the wharfies) isn’t, because nurses can’t work together as a cohesive bunch. If I sound critical it’s because it’s a profession that I care about with dire needs. I’d love more insight on why female dominated professions act in this manner.

  202. Paula

    Dill and cumin in the area of Biblical headship.. I love it! I think it would be interesting to have some psychiatrists assess these guys. I think there would be some interesting conclusions.

  203. Haitch

    Wow! How well put. In my former years in nursing, the only time the environment as free from backbiting was when I supervised a small group of nurses in the evening in a home health agency. I was working on my MBA at the time. I think backbiting occurs when people feel powerless to change the system or to have real input into their working circumstances. So, since it was in the evening and there were no cadre of bosses running around, I instituted a different environment.

    I knew that most of them were working to help out their families and that their families were very important to them. I allowed them to slip away to a school function and then finish up their work later. I asked them what they thought my role should be and they said the previous supervisor had never pitched in to help them So, I took on a few quick and easy visits myself on most evenings. I would let them leave early and finish up their paperwork the next day if there was a sick child at home. Twice a week, we all went to dinner in some small restaurants around town before the visits. I played loud music in the office and often wore an oversized sombrero and carried maracas around to make my points.

    I believe that most people are looking for connections to each other. Each of those nurses were wonderful ladies (there were no men in th evening for some reason)who took pride in their work. But, we often forget that people are not just cost center liabilities and income producers. They are far more. They are beloved image bearers and need to be treated as such.  

  204. Lynne, you make a great point. Women shouldn’t read 50 Shades of Grey for reasons outlined in another book women shouldn’t read. So we can’t read why we can’t read. Talk about frustrating.

  205. Pam/Lynne

    This is patronizing patriarchal nonsense. To excuse Wilson’s ridiculous screed by saying it was never intended for women is a demeaning cop out.  What he is really saying is “Nopthing to see here for women. Stroll along now, dear.”

  206. Dee/Haitch/Wendy-

    Although I would rather not get into a discussion of the differences between men and women, I think generally men are more comfortable within a hierarchy and women are better at working within organizations that are “flatter”. So if the corporate/church/doctinal culture is very hierarchal, women who flourish in those settings will rise to the top. My observation is that they tend to be women who will simper or cower to those above while dishing it out to those below. Men do the same, but it looks different.

    Hmmm… think, think…Mary Kassian, Dorothy Patterson, etc. It is a rare person who can work in a hierarchal culture without assimilating the values. I haven’t read any Susan Hunt recently, but I would generally point her out as a complementarian author who doesn’t seem to have that backbiting “edge” to her. I don’t agree with her, but I do like her.

  207. By the way, Dee, your example shows you to be someone who can work within the system without kowtowing to it. Kudos. You should consider being deliberate about teaching others to do the same.

  208. Dee, yep, it is patriarchal nonsense that women can’t be trusted to choose their own reading material. I’m not defending it at all, just looking at the arguments used, which pretty much were the Big Boys discussing what women should read, and defending their position with another book women can’t read. Of course, on the internet, anyone can read a blog and call out the hypocrisy and nonsense.

  209. The weirdest part of Wilson’s book for men is….supposedly is it about men’s relationships with women, but everybody is pretty sure that women will find it offensive. Because it teaches men offensive things. About women. Or about men’s relationship to women. Or….just something offensive. Or it’s not really offensive, women are just too sensitive. Yeah, that’s it. Men are awesome and hairy but women are just too sensitive. That’s why there’s such a big need for the He-Man Wimmen Hater’s Club. That teaches a man offensive things he needs to know in order to have a right relationship with a woman. You know, like how to think rightly about rape. Women just get upset about it. Because they’re sensitive.

  210. Blue lotus (cont’d.): I erred in my statement upthread. We *do* know what it is – the question is How/why did the ancient Egyptians use it?

    Dee – I think you would be a great cruise director! 🙂

  211. Numo

    Believe it or not, my singles group at church (many years ago) awarded me “The Most Likely to Become a Cruise Director.” Thanks for the memories.

  212. Dee, yes, kudos for taking on the corporatist/managerialist mindset with ‘out of the box’ care, concern and maracas. I hope you’ll publish one day and push out all those “Can’t steal second with your foot on first” type books. I think you’re onto something with the powerlessness.

    Dana – hierarchies and assimilating values/conformism – I would be interested to know how much depression non-conformists suffer, am thinking it would be high. We need many more Dees (note, Dee had a sacrificial approach also, she wasn’t just being a quirky exec)

    The He-Man Wimmen Hater’s Club – yeah, I’m mentally thinking of an early Arnie as Conan the Barbarian, baby oiled muscles and orange tan. Pucker up you patriarchialists !