"I am also very concerned about conferences. Or, more specifically, conference Christians."
Together for the Gospel 2012, which attracted between 7,500 and 8,000 "conference Christians" to the KFC Yum! Center, is now a memory. Not to worry, there are more conferences on the way for the Calvinista crowd. Take a look. . .
Theme: The Church (ironically, this is the theme for Resolved 2012)
May 26-29, 2012
Orlando, Florida
Speakers: C.J. Mahaney, * Kevin DeYoung, Matt Chandler, Jeff Purwell, Jared Mellinger, Ian McConnell
Cost: $175 (Individual) $250 (Couple)
* Yes, that would be the same Kevin DeYoung who served on the preliminary panel to determine whether C.J. Mahaney was fit for ministry.
This is the last Next Conference
Theme: God's Revelation of Himself in Scripture
June 22-24, 2012
Orlando, Florida
Speakers: Don Carson, Tim Keller, John Piper, Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Mary Kassian, Carolyn Mahaney, Mary Mohler, Kathy Keller, Noelle Piper, Jani Ortlund, Lauren Chandler, Kristie Anyabwile, among others
Cost: $175
This is the first ever National Women's Conference sponsored by The Gospel Coalition
Theme: The Church
June 22-25, 2012
Palm Springs, California
Speakers: John MacArthur, Al Mohler, C.J. Mahaney, Rick Holland, Jonathan Rourke, Austin Duncan
Break-out session for women: Carolyn McCulley
Cost: $175 (if you register by 5/31)
This is the eighth and final Resolved Conference
Theme: A Biblical Worldview
July 29 – August 4, 2012
Grantham, Pennsylvania
Speakers: Wayne Grudem, David Powlison, Ian Duguid, Nathan Sasser
Cost: $600 (includes materials, teaching, meals, and lodging)
A six-day worldview conference (previously held in 2008)
Theme: Seeking Him Together
September 20-22, 2012
Indianapolis, Indiana
Speakers: Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Mary Kassian, Joni Eareckson Tada, * Priscilla Shirer, Janet Parshall, among others
Cost: Regular (through Sept. 3, 2012) – $139
Late (after Sept. 3, 2012) – $159
* Please take note of this name. We will be discussing her soon.
"True Woman '12: Seeking Him Together is a clarion call to humble ourselves and pray, to seek His face, and to turn from our sinful ways . . . to believe Him for spiritual awakening in our day . . . for the exaltation of Jesus and the advancement of His Kingdom."
True Woman held its first conference in 2008. John Piper gave the keynote message.
Imagine my utter shock when I read a blog post written by Mark Driscoll and absolutely agreed with it! A year ago yesterday, the following was featured on The Resurgence website:
The Crisis of Conference Christians
At the beginning of his post, Driscoll defines The Conference Christian, as follows:
"By definition, a conference Christian is someone who spends a great deal of time (and often money) attending Christian conferences. They love hearing the speakers, love singing with the bands, love letting the world know who they meet and what they are experiencing via blog/Facebook/Twitter, and love meeting up with other conference Christians. Some of these conference Christians somehow manage to work a job in around all their conferences. Others are ministry leaders spending tithe dollars to pay for their hobby/vacation/fanboy obsession."
Driscoll explains that he has spoken at various conferences over the years and that he is "amazed" at the familiar faces he sees. He confirms that these conference Christians make the rounds between "all the big events", as he reveals: "I have literally had a photo taken with some people at five or six different conferences in a single year. These are usually single white guys from decent families who treat preaching the way other guys do porn—obsessed with it and devoting hours to it every day."
Driscoll then lists six concerns with these conference Christians. Here are the ones that really stood out to me:
"1. A Pseudo Elder Board
They have a pseudo elder board that they self-select from their favorite preachers and authors. This allows them to not submit to a local team of actual spiritual leaders who know them, but rather just defend themselves by appealing to their heroes, who would be embarrassed to see how they were being used by conference Christians.
2. Comparison
They start comparing the preaching, music, and overall experience of their favorite conference to their local church Sunday experience. This makes it impossible for the average pastor and church to ever measure up. It’s a bit like the guy who is so enamored with the Victoria’s Secret catalog that his wife starts to look less and less attractive, as if it were a problem with her appearance instead of his obsession.
3. Addiction
They are addicts. They are constantly getting high on preaching, singing, and mingling, and, like all addicts, need a fix and are subsequently always jonesing for the next fix/conference. This explains why they are always preparing for a conference, attending a conference, or reflecting on a conference.
If a decent percentage of attendees are in fact conference Christians simply touring around like Deadheads used to, then we’ve got more of a crisis than an upsurge."
Driscoll's sixth point is absolutely crucial. He says that those who flock to these conferences make it appear that there has been a surge in "passionate young evangelicals". He then names the conferences that are popular with this crowd: Desiring God, Together for the Gospel, The Gospel Coalition, Resurgence, Acts 29, Sovereign Grace, 9Marks, and so forth.
Mark Driscoll concludes with a compelling concern — "if a decent percentage of those attendees are in fact conference Christians simply touring around like Deadheads used to, then we’ve got more of a crisis than an upsurge."
We have been harping on conferences since the inception of our blog. It is patently obvious that there are significant financial gains for the event organizers. Have you ever wondered how much of that conference fee – let's say $150 – is "profit"? I have a fairly good idea, and that's why I'm so concerned.
Speaking of the financial aspects of these conferences, it's important to remember that the cost of attending DOES NOT include travel, lodging, and food (there are rare exceptions like The Clash). In these difficult economic times, is it wise to spend so much money flocking from conference to conference? It certainly appears that a large number of attendees are young Christian guys who in all likelihood have a wife and young children. Is it prudent to spend so much of the family's limited resources doing what Mark Driscoll has observed?
Those whom we label as "Calvinistas" appear to flock to conferences more than other groups in Christendom. When will they reach a point where they believe they have accumulated enough Biblical wisdom that they no longer need to be a conference junkie? When will they reach a point where they far prefer sharing Jesus with those who do not know Him rather than attending the next big event?
What greatly concerns Dee and me is that Calvinista women's conferences appear to be on the upswing. In our upcoming post, we will take a closer look at The Gospel Coalition's first women's conference – Here Is Our God.
In the meantime, here are some questions for discussion:
(1) Has there indeed been an upswing in the number of conferences being held?
(2) How much on average does it cost (travel, lodging, food, conference fee) for someone to attend one of these conferences?
(3) What is the true motivation for being a 'conference Christian'?
Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 45:13-46:24 1 Peter 1:13-2:10 Psalm 119:33-48 Proverbs 28:11
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I would like to memorialize that on May 16, 2011 Mark Driscoll wrote some things that made a certain amount of sense while only making one illustrative reference (each) to porn and the Victoria’s Secret catalog.
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I noticed that, too, TBD! He loves sexual illustrations as well as words like addiction, obsession, etc. The man has a serious problem.
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The question that springs to mind is: how much annual leave do most Americans get? (I know it’s significantly less than here, where the mandatory minimum for any full-time job is 4 weeks/ a year) And if so, how much are they robbing their own families of that time?
And yes, even Driscoll gets it right sometimes 🙂 (There’s probably some statistical law that demands it)
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I giggled when I saw that T4G drew a smaller crowd than a typical University of Louisville WOMEN’S basketball game. Makes you wonder why renting a 22,000-seat basketball palace was necessary, and how much of the cost of attending went to covering that rent. Not going to complain over much about the money attendees poured into our local economy, but that’s beside the point.
I would agree with Deb that Driscoll is likely spot on with his assessment, and I think the fact that the conference barely filled a third of the venue’s seating may indicate that attendance was largely made up of folks who had come before.
Still, gross receipts before book/media sales was likely between $1 and $1.2 million. Not too shabby, but if you’re making that kind of money off the backs of people who are attending again and again and again it does beg the question.
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Lynne, I would guess that your typical American worker gets 2-6 weeks paid vacation each year, with an additional 5-10 paid holidays and varying amounts of sick time.
But…most folks involved in church work are going to be on the low end of those figures, and if they work in smaller churches their vacation time may be more in the realm of non-existent to take-time-when-you-can. My guess is that a lot of the attendees are either church staff from larger churches who can afford to send them or lay people who have the time and money to go.
It would be interesting to see a demographic on your average conference-goer.
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Maybe evangelicals are making pilgrimages to conferences, camps, retreats and “Christian” attractions because they’re craving an intensity of communion with God that they’re not getting from the legalistic moralism they find in their own churches? Or perhaps it’s just celebrity worship, pure and simple.
Some folks go to Lourdes or Coachella, evangelicals – NCs particularly – go to T$G, Resolved and the Creation Museum. As Driscoll stated, “If a decent percentage of attendees are in fact conference Christians simply touring around like Deadheads used to, then we’ve got more of a crisis than an upsurge.” But the NCs would never see their behavior as Deadheadlike. They’re engaging in “godly”, “biblical” fandom, don’t you know.
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@Eagle
Good idea. But ladies, don’t forget to bring your ventriloquist dummies. You never know who might engage you in theological discussion.
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Darn it! If I lived in America, I’d be tempted to do exactly that! It’s definitely time to desegregate the elitist boys’ club.
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Eagle, I’ll print up the “Christus Victor” tee shirts. That’ll get ‘m riled. 😉
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Conferences, workshops, seminars… are big business in America. I think it’s just an aspect of “sophisticated living” of the religious in an affluent society.
One young man told me he likes to go to conferences to get high, to keep him motivated, to be fed the spiritual food he needs and to “stay connected”. No mention of local assembly, witness for the gospel, love one another command or doing good works. I think these conferences make a lot of hearers and not doers of the Word.
There are folks, like me, who lead busy lives, have no time for conferences or live on a budget or have other daily obligations.
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I attend a week long conference every year organised by my church. I don’t look forward to it; I go because I’m in charge of Children’s Ministry in my church. I don’t like the hype surrounding it, I go because I know the amount of work and effort that goes into organising it. Some aspects of it would cause the Calvinistas to choke; women and men preach at it!
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I am so sorry that I live in Australia so won’t have the opportunity to attend “True Woman 12 – Theme: Seeking Him Together”(sarcasm alert). They wouldn’t want to pitch a theme like that to the men, might sound a bit, you know, merry…
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Deb, while you linked to Driscoll’s resurgence website “The Crisis of Conference Christians”, the main page http://theresurgence.com/ promotes the Resurgence R12 conference. Irony? And what’s with the tattooing and ballet shoes photos next to the “Because Jesus lives we live for Jesus” banner? Nil cognition here.
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Some great points by Pastor Mark but really, did he have to mention porn? Oh I forgot: according to his worldview yes he did, otherwise people would lose interest and stop reading.
It’s really strange to read something written by Mark Driscoll and feel myself nod my head in agreement.
Sergius – That’s so funny, ventriloquist dummies! It’s given me an idea: if ever again I end up in conversation with a fundagelical male and talk turns towards the things of God, I’ll whip a sock off, put it on my hand and ‘the sock’ will declare that since Sophie has no male guardian around to do her talking for her, it is standing in as her proxy ‘covering’.
OK, I might not have the guts to do that, but I can dream.
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I have only been in one large conference, only a few months after I left my previous church. It lasted a few days and it definitely was on the “Reformed” side of the road, with names like D.A. Carson or Terry Virgo… But I have to admit that it was good for me as, at the time, I was carrying a lot of baggage, both theological and psychological, that I needed to leave behind. And I had been invited by people from church, so I didn’t have to pay for it. This was over 3 years ago and haven’t gone again due to time and money issues.
But I know people who have attended every year since. I couldn’t say why they go, if it’s for the “high”, because it’s genuinely useful for them or what else… Meanwhile there’s been a range of other national and regional conferences, and I have been encouraged to attend some of the Men’s conferences. Never did. I don’t know if I’m being closed minded, but I always feel there’s something missing in those Men’s meetings 🙂
With respect to “conference Christians”, I agree that a problem can develop there. I’ve realised that when I’ve based my spirituality in the way things were done in a particular congregation or church, then things quickly “deflated” once I was left on my own and far from that particular place. However, after I took a more balanced view of my own spirituality, basing it on Jesus Himself, on my own personality and in the fellowship with others, I think things started to “flow” a bit more naturally… Maybe it doesn’t make me feel “high” that often and I still commit a large a mount of mistakes, but it somehow feels more secure.
This is the main problem I see, not counting the monetary bleeding, for the people who may base their lives around all these conferences. At times they might be useful, but the system can be abused and it can also end up “abusing” the people who keep it running.
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I love (snarl,snarl) seeing John Piper as a keynote speaker at a women’s conference. Why is it so many of the experts on being a woman are male? I’m only obliged to pay attention to the opinions of two men, one is my husband the other is Jesus Christ the Lord!
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Don’t forget homeschool conferences. The homeschool community has this same problem, and homeschooling Calvinistas run BOTH conference circuits. Some people here in New England drive to Cincinnati every year to go to their big homeschool conference, AND then go to all the local state conferences. I don’t know why, because after a while the speakers and topics are all the same. But anyhoo, here’s a (somewhat humorous) description of your average homeschool conference (I’m sure the readers here can find similarities and crossover):
1. A huge vendor hall where you can buy lots of bad curriculum and a few good ones, and LOADS of extra toys and stuff.
2. The required cocktail of talks (parenting talks, “inspirational” talks, spouse relations/patriarchy talks, OMG TEACHING MATH IS SO HARD FOR US MOMS talks, how to help your child test out of college talks, etc.)
3. At least 2-3 big name speakers for attendees to gawk at and genuflect before.
4. A “teen track” so your teenager has something to do. Topics are limited by law to courtship/purity, creation vs. evolution, Why Republicans Are Good and Democrats Are Bad, and apologetics. Make sure you get a funny speaker who will ensure the children engage in no deep thought whatsoever.
And, in addition to the Calvinista conferences and homeschool conferences, there are also the patriarchy conferences. Sigh.
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I’ll be interested to hear what you have to say about Priscilla Shirer. Our ladies’ group has done two studies by her.
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In the branch of the Church of Christ I came out of, we were “encouraged” to go to the Florida Evangelism Seminar every year. (I met my husband at one of those seminars, so at least some good came out of it. 🙂 ) It was held on the grounds of the University of Florida, and people from all over the US (and some from out of the country) would come. Kip McKean was a frequent speaker.
We were also “encouraged” to go to a yearly campus retreat and to the women’s day sponsored by the old Crossroads Church of Christ in Gainesville.
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That Bad Dog
“I would like to memorialize that on May 16, 2011 Mark Driscoll wrote some things that made a certain amount of sense while only making one illustrative reference (each) to porn and the Victoria’s Secret catalog.” The question is, why?
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Hester,
Thanks for reminding me to rant once again about the NCHE conference here in my state which takes place next week. Keynote Speaker: Voddie Baucham. 🙁
I must admit that I attended this conference TWICE back in the late 1990s when I was homeschooling. That was before all the RADICALS took over, although I did hear Doug Phillips speak at the last one I attended. He was patriotic and pro-family, but he launched Vision Forum that year and now we know the rest of the story.
It appears that in the wake of Ken Ham being banned from certain homeschool conferences, Doug Phillips and his ilk have started their own conferences. Teach Them Diligently featured Doug Phillips, Voddie Baucham, and Ken Ham as keynote speakers.
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Lynne
The amount of time off varies from job to job and from employer to employer. I do know that, on average, Americans get far less vacation time than Europeans. Most startup jobs give 2 weeks/year plus sick time and holidays. In the health fields, three weeks is common but I know people will write in and give differing amounts there as well. The physician groups get 4-6 weeks but they work chronic overtime so it doesn’t even out. 4 weeks sounds great!
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Craig
One also wonders why someone would want to attend to hear the same old, same old. I am one of those people who rarely watches a movie more than once (Lord of the Rings and Star Wars are the exceptions).
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I would be interested to know what percentage of attendees at T4G were seminary students from SBTS. They got a discount and credit hours if they attended. I’d also love to know what percentage of Southern Seminary students attended T4G. They just LOVE CJ! Now wonder he’s moving to Mecca.
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Eagle
You know what I would show up to protest? Doug Wilson and his take on slavery in the South. Deb and I really need to highlight this. His views should be publicized so that the average pew sitter knows exactly what is being said. And then they might question why folks like Piper hand with the Wilsons of the world. Piper cannot pontificate on the evils of racism and give Wilson a pass on the slavery statements.
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Deb
Good post. Teach Them Diligently, huh? Ken Ham? Yep, he is diligently leading people down a dangerous path.
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I don’t think I’d label my hometown as “Mecca” just yet (as much as Dr. Mohler may wish it so). Louisville is still close to half Catholic, and most everybody else is non-Calvinist Baptists or Methodist. Not to mention the non-denom Arminian-as-John-Wesley megachurch that draws 17K every weekend. Southern has a very visible presence but the local influence is a bit more muted than you would expect. It’s their influence on the larger sphere of Calvinistadom that is a bit more troubling. 🙂
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Craig,
That’s good to know! I am still concerned about what will happen as Mahaney sets up shop in your hometown.
Blessings!
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Most ministers get conference time separate from vacation and holidays. Conferences are sort of like continuing education time off, perceived to have some benefit to the employer, who generally pays the expenses of x number of conferences or conventions per year. Many SBC pastors and other church staff get “sent” to the SBC convention and the state convention every year, fully expense paid by the church, and it is not counted as vacation or time off.
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@ Deb:
I’ve only ever been to a state conference in MA. Went about four times as a teen, so I’ve had plenty of exposure to the broken record teen track. : )
Shame on Ken Ham for agreeing to speak at Doug Phillips’ patriarchy propaganda fair. I, too, would only attend that conference to picket or cause trouble. (For those of you familiar with the witch trials, I think “Ask Rebecca Nurse how the last theocracy worked out” would be a nerdy but awesome sign to wave in front of Vision Forum’s booth.)
The other thing I have to wonder about is, how long before some weird disease breaks out at one of these conferences? Many of Phillips’ devoted followers are anti-vaccination, and there have been several documented cases of measles, whooping cough, etc. spreading like wildfire through small patriarchal congregations. Just imagine what they might do at a conference attended by hundreds of unvaccinated families.
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Craig, Mohler is good friends with the mega church you mention. He has had the leaders in to speak at SBTS and has done quite a few gigs with their leaders. In fact, some of the “elder rulers” at the mega have helped Highview plot their elder rule strategy without the congregation being totally aware of the backroom tactics.
Mohler is well connected in Louisville and was very involved with Metroversity. The root of the relationships Mohler has here are not “Calvinism” but “authoritarianism”. Being “guys in charge” and movers and shakers. The really funny thing is that many here will argue adamently that Ezell is not a Calvinist and that means Highview is not Calvinist. (Ezell is now pres of NAMB and funding Calvnist only Acts 29 churches). How they do this is with the point system. A 3 or 4 pointer can be a Calvinist when convenient but a non Calvinst when necessary for fooling people who hate Calvinism. It is really a great bait and switch if you think about it. And if you are around them long enough, you start picking up on how they use this tactic. Very sneaky and deceitful.
It has never been soley about Calvinism! Very few people get it. These guys are not sold out to Calvinism. They are sold out to their authority and power. Calvinism is the vehicle.
It was never really about Calvinism but control of the SBC. Calvinism is just the vehicle to taking over the SBC ….but don’t tell the young guys that…they are totally sold out. The slogan is basically, “We have truth and they don’t” or “We understand the bible and they don’t”. And the young guys totally fall for it. SBTS is considered ground zero for YRR. It is the main indoctrination center. Every movement must have a rally cry or reason to exist. For Mohler it is “If you want to see the nations rejoice for Christ there is only one place to go…New Calvinism”.
I sent that clip to a few of the elders at the formentioned mega and they were shocked but most of them are so shallow it hardly matters…they have their own authoritarian issues because they have a 30,000 electric bill to pay every month. See, people just do not know and when they know, they don’t care. They are not connecting dots. It is all about power, image, control, etc.
Never forget, the YRR need SBC money from non Calvnists to plant Calvinist churches.
There is nothing to explain why Mahaney is moving to Louisville to start a church. We have protestant churches on every corner here. But we do not have Calvinist shepherding cult churches on every corner. So why Louisville? Open arms from SBTS?
Revelation warns about these guys. The Nicolaitans. Conqueror of the people. That is all they are.
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And to think Mohler is really just an employee of the SBC. You would think he is the pope.
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Dee,
Excellent point about Wilson. He has never renounced what he wrote about slavery and must not be given a pass, especially not by someone like Piper who claims to oppose racism (alas in 2011 – Where was Dr. Piper during the Willie Horton ad campaign? Where was he on race issues for the first 30 years of his ministry?).
As I and others have said before, people need to understand where Wilson comes from because his position is fundamentally tied to his patriarchy. Racism and patricarchy/hierarchy go together. Just look at the “hierarchy of races” of Victorian and Edwardian (patriarchal ages, both) anthropology.
I have not watched the whole thing yet (will finish it tomorrow), but I’m sure this BBC documentary, hosted on youtube by the Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia (at Ferris State University) will be of interest to Wartburg Watchers who want to understand the historical antecedents of Wilson’s unbiblical views.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzqEaiGR7Xo
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By the way, Craig. There is a joke about the mega you mentioned that is completely true. It is considered the largest “Catholic” church in town. And the largest “Baptist” church in town.
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Hester
“Shame on Ken Ham for agreeing to speak at Doug Phillips’ patriarchy propaganda fair. ” Ham is in this up to his eyeballs. This is one of the groups who support him without question. I am not not his fans. He is a patriarch who describes his wife as “very, very submissive.”
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Anon1
Spot on, once again. “It has never been soley about Calvinism! Very few people get it. These guys are not sold out to Calvinism. They are sold out to their authority and power. Calvinism is the vehicle.”
“For Mohler it is “If you want to see the nations rejoice for Christ there is only one place to go…New Calvinism”.” Gee, I thought it was about going to Jesus?? Whoops-Calvinism is the only vehicle for getting Jesus now, isn’t it?
I haves been reading a book about the SBC takeover. In it, the authors discuss how the inerrancy issue was used to fool people into thinking that anyone who did not agree with them was unbiblical. Same game, different name this time.
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Hester,
WOW, you bring up a great point about diseases like whooping cough being spread among those in the homeschooling community that are anti-vaccination.
My hubby and I were watching the news earlier this week, and we heard about this:
Whooping Cough Epidemic
Come on, folks, if you really care about your kiddos, get them vaccinated!
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Anon1,
I also agree with you – it’s not solely about Calvinism.
Let’s be clear, it’s about POWER and CONTROL. These men are setting up a hierarchy with the women and children on the bottom. The male sycophants are above them, and the god-like figures are perched on top. Sounds like a pyramid scheme to me.
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I thought everyone might appreciate this excerpt from Nancy Ortberg’s book, ‘Looking for God’. She describes being on the leadership team at a large retreat for young adults:
‘On Saturday night, I gave a quick message after dinner, and then we held a worship concert. The place was packed, the lights were dimmed, and the music was loud and passionate. It resembled a rock concert, and that isn’t all bad.
People couldn’t get enough, and the clamor for more pushed the music and singing late into the night.
Being the only person over forty in the room, I told my staff I was going to bed. If anything got out of hand, they should feel free to wake me up. The concert went on for at least another hour.
The next morning at breakfast, bleary-eyed but enthusiastic, many of the attendees were still talking about how great the worship had been.
But I had a very different take on it.
When I got up to speak, I started like this.
“Something happened here in this room last night, there’s no doubt about it. There was an incredible amount of energy and enthusiasm and response. Some are calling it worship. I’m not yet convinced.
When the day comes that this community has the same amount of energy, enthusiasm, and responsiveness for the poor, the marginalized, and those far away from God and each other, then I will believe that what I witnessed last night was worship.
Until then, I think what we saw last night was a compartmentalized emotional catharsis, which while it might have been enjoyable, was not worship in any sense of the word.”‘
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Dee – agree that you all should post more about Doug “grand wizard” Wilson. The guy is a racist. I half expect him to show up to speak at one of these conferences in white robes and hat. He will handle the politics part and his session will be called “the birth of a nation”. I would protest with you!
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JJ
Loved this quote. Thanks
“Something happened here in this room last night, there’s no doubt about it. There was an incredible amount of energy and enthusiasm and response. Some are calling it worship. I’m not yet convinced.
When the day comes that this community has the same amount of energy, enthusiasm, and responsiveness for the poor, the marginalized, and those far away from God and each other, then I will believe that what I witnessed last night was worship.
Until then, I think what we saw last night was a compartmentalized emotional catharsis, which while it might have been enjoyable, was not worship in any sense of the word.”‘
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JJ,
I hope you don’t mind me quoting you in an upcoming post. What you shared is so important! That kind of emotion is not unlike what we see at huge sporting events.
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Anon 1
I’m actually a former member at “Six Flags” 🙂 but I currently serve at a small SBC church. Still have a lot of wonderful friendships there. I suppose I’m still naive enough to believe that these movers and shakers love Christ but are just mistaken and/or overbearing about their doctrine. I’ve been reading TWW since last July when the SGM mess hit the fan and it has been a real eye opener. Question for you: I know some folks involved in the Sojourn churches here but know very little about the churches themselves, other than the fact that they seem to be expanding the reach of their “brand” at a very rapid pace. Any thouhts?
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I’ve been wondering myself why we have reduced the act of worship to singing with a group of believers? Going along with that is why so much time and money in many churches is devoted to the music and worship arena. Worship is a way of life to me, not so much about singing and music, although I like those things. I think many churches use worship and music these days as an attraction tool.
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I think there must be some sort of psychological common demoninator for conferences – it’s not only the Calvinistas that seem to like putting them on. However most bodies, at least here in the UK and Europe, seem content to put them on once a year, and for many people with a shared interest they do provide some info and a good way to network.
Over here I have noticed that men’s and women’s conventions (ie single-sex events) seem now to be held regularly once a year, as well as Gospel Partnership AGMs or whatever. But I don’t think we’ve reached the sort of saturation point that Dee and Deb are describing here.
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Bridget2, AMEN. As a worship/music minister myself I am in TOTAL agreement with you. Worship has a lot of facets but it seems like these days the focus is on getting an emotional high or drawing more people in with how hip and exciting our worship is. I could probably write a paper on it. 🙂
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Wilson and slavery…patriocentrists will tell you they aren’t racists then embrace kinists, who claim they aren’t racists because they don’t believe in “race mingling.” They are a scary, nutty group.
My thoughts on conventions……I think people are so vulnerable to all sorts of teachings when they go to any convention. Part of it involves the relaxed nature of it all, hotel rooms, eating out and not having to cook or clean, chumming around with “like minded” believers, book tables to peruse, etc. etc. etc. Most people rarely have their guard up.
Secondly, even if you did hear something you disagreed with, how hard is it to admit that you spent a ton of money being taught wrong things? I used to work with a woman who repeatedly made bad purchasing decisions for our organization but would never admit it and always tried to find the “good” in those purchases to justify the expense.
Attending conventions also give you a leg up on the others in your church who didn’t go. Somehow that is translated as being more spiritual because you got to hear “it” from the actual convention speakers/celebrities yourself. And he signed your book.
Also, people are looking for something and most Christians are looking for inspiration. And most of us are rarely content…it is a gift to be content and we don’t really want that gift, at least until we are older and get it. I think this young, restless, reformed crowd are a bunch of sophomoric malcontents who just want more out of life and think this is where they find it. The truth is, living faithfully in your home, one anothering your families, being employees who live my integrity and sincerity, and serving others in the name of Jesus just aren’t quite “sexy” enough as they would say.
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Craig,
It’s too early to speculate about Sojourn since they recently pulled out of Acts 29.
I will say that it’s interesting that SGM is moving to Louisville…
Could there be a merger of some kind? We’ll just have to wait and see.
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Koyla,
Thanks for letting us know about Christian conferences in the UK and Europe.
I do believe the phenomenon we are witnessing here in the US is a matter of good old economics (supply and demand).
If the demand shrinks, then the glut of conferences will as well.
I agree that it’s not only the Calvinistas who hold conferences. It’s just that they are a primary focus of ours here at TWW. We have talked about the prosperity pimps, but they are in a downward spiral as far as I can tell.
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“I’m actually a former member at “Six Flags” but I currently serve at a small SBC church. Still have a lot of wonderful friendships there. I suppose I’m still naive enough to believe that these movers and shakers love Christ but are just mistaken and/or overbearing about their doctrine.”
Craig, My experience with 6 flags goes back to the original Hikes Lane location and I still have family there in official high level capacities. So I have seen the trajectory. If only the pew sitters knew what goes on….oh well. You mention overbearing in doctrine and I am thinking, ‘which doctrine and which year’. It seems to change and coincide with trying to get as many nickels and noses in the seats to continue paying all the staff ministers 6 figure salaries and send them on world travels for “missions”.(wink) I have a family member who has been all over the world on the pew sitters dime and this person is far far far from being “missional”. But most higher level staffers have traveled the world on OPM. It is considered another perk of their 30 hr work week, 6 figure income, free vactions….. job at 6 flags.
” I’ve been reading TWW since last July when the SGM mess hit the fan and it has been a real eye opener. Question for you: I know some folks involved in the Sojourn churches here but know very little about the churches themselves, other than the fact that they seem to be expanding the reach of their “brand” at a very rapid pace. Any thouhts?”
Sojourn used to be affiliated (planted) with Acts 29 until a few months ago when it hit the fan about Driscoll. They are also funded in part by the SBC. Then they issued a vague statement about starting their own brand of church plants. And they really are marketing their brand (Calvinism) with a vengence. Yes, they now have four locations in metro area.
They have a membership covenant. I have begged my friends not to sign it. So far they have not officially joined but the pressure is on. The thing about these type of churches is that they are not thrilled with folks who come and don’t join. There are arguments for and against that. But I suggest people attend for quite a while before joining these places as some are very cultic and use love bombing whch is hard to detect at first. They need time to really check it out deeply.
At 6 flags this is a huge problem. Lots of people attending who never join and lots of members who never came. However, as long as they put money in the plate and it keeps flowing in, it is not a big deal there.their published numbers have never been right. That part is a huge inside joke.
I know folks who are really impressed right now and attending Sojourn. But they are still in honeymoon phase. If you go to their site, they promote sermons by Mahaney, Dave Harvey, Dever, Driscoll, etc unless they have taken all that down in time for the convention. Who knows. But the bottom line is: It is the same guys and these are their followers.
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@JJ
compartmentalized emotional catharsis
Hmmmm….
Can we capitalize that, add the number “2012”, and have our own conference?
SMG
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A lot of the problem is that Americans want quick fixes- they want instant gratification and a conference that fills that empty slot in ones soul. They can feel like they are a part of the newest thing, the newest fad. The conferences will be filled with the newest evangelical lingo, so there will be this illusion that those attending will be on the cutting edge. What a crock!
“There is nothing new under the sun” says Solomon.
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Oregon’s Christian homeschooling conference is scheduled for next month. The only familiar conference roving name on the roster is Michael Farris, head of HSLDA.
Here are some of the wonderful sessions that I could attend (but I wouldn’t give my time or money to this event):
Your Man’s Lover – Be a blessing and a builder to the man God has given you. (Bless and build. Bless and build.)
Torn Between Two Worldviews – This is a great opportunity to learn practical tools to reach non-Christians and to confront the culture with the Truth. (Culture war! Culture war!)
The Coming Attack on Homeschooling from the Legal Elites – This attack is true. Michael Farris examines the newest anti—homeschooling strategy of the legal elites, explains how it will impact us today and tomorrow, and outlines a plan of action. (The Christian homeschooling community is so paranoid.)
How to Like the Woman You Love – God has big plans for you as a lover and friend. Delight her heart, meet her needs, fulfill her destiny. “Love your wife as Christ loves the Church”. (REALLY??!! You don’t already “like” the woman you “love?”)
Artificial Authority – In this session, students will learn to recognize the characteristics of artificial authorities, witness artificial authorities from both church and culture, become adept at discerning the difference between true and artificial authorities, and discover how Christ’s followers are to respond with truth and grace. (Hmmmm….I wonder who they’ll talk about in this session.)
The Busy Homeschool Mom’s Guide to Daytime: How to Fit Your Size 16 Day into a Size 10 – (I’m not even going to give you the description of this course. We’re going there with women’s sizes?)
A Challenge to the Next Generation – Christian young people are leaving the faith in droves. (Yes. So are Christian middle aged people.)
The Spiritual Impact of Educational Choices – The best and most effective opportunity to win large numbers of Americans to Christ is found in our children. Based on the research of George Barna, Michael Farris presents homeschooling as the very best method to accomplish this. Church leaders are challenged to wake up to the spiritual damage occurring in their church’s children via public education. Parents are encouraged to make sure that the spiritual opportunity presented by homeschooling is not squandered. (Oh. My. So, the best way to win Christians is to convert our children. And, forget those public schooled kids. Only the homeschooled kids are saved.)
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Dee – I would love to see you take on Doug Phillips’ extreme bigotry, as well as (cough cough) the emphasis on J.E.B. Stuart’s “Christian manhood” that seems to run rampant in many patriocentric homeschooling circles.
No offense, folks, but I do think there’s something very wrong in using military leaders of the Confederacy (the flower of Southern chivalry – ?!) as role models for kids.
I even know someone who grew up in *Maine* who heard/read all of that as a kid. (And has rejected it.)
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… or is it Stonewall Jackson that is so beloved by many patriocentric homeschoolers? (Pollen allergies are making me a bit fuzzy today.)
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@Dee and Deb
I’m glad that the quote resonated with you! Deb, I’d be happy for you to use it in a post, but just to clarify – it wasn’t me who said it 🙂 It from pp. 171-172 of Nancy Ortberg’s book,’Looking for God’.
The Jon Foreman song I posted a while back (‘Instead of a Show’ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrY1-gPM0KY) seems relevant to this.
‘I hate all your show and pretense
the hypocrisy of your praise
the hypocrisy of your festivals
I hate all your show’
As Deb said, the fervour at these events is comparable to sporting events.
And I think this applies to both (singing) worship-orientated conferences as well as the Calvinista ones which would be characterised by so-called ‘sound teaching’, where theology junkies get their fixes and feel the satisfaction of their favourite doctrines being reiterated.
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@SMG
“compartmentalized emotional catharsis … Can we capitalize that, add the number “2012″, and have our own conference?”
Great idea! ‘CEC’ has a nice ring to it. At least it’d be an honest conference title 😉
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@ Bridget2
Amen!
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Kathi,
I believe this is one of the speakers at Oregon’s Christian Homeschool Conference.
http://www.oceanetwork.org/calendar/conference/
Bill Jack is faculty advisor for Worldview Academy. Students nationwide have learned from Bill at Worldview Academy, and homeschool and Answers in Genesis conferences. Bill is a contributing editor for AIG’s “Issues & Answers.”
Diana Waring is also coming. I remember her from my homeschooling days, and I didn’t remember her being radical like the Vision Forum crowd.
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This is a bit broad, but since the church left the liturgy, isn’t church selection and attendance influenced as much by the entertaining nature of the speaker as much as anything?
How can a mega church pastor really criticize conferences?
Having said that, I tend to believe that conferences and speaking events can be a good thing. It’s a bit like reading a lot. The more you hear, the more you can be inspired etc.
Can one become a junkie? Completely disconnected from a local congregationa and real people? Of course. But that’s an abuse, and one that should be addressed.
The other issue about conferences is the financial one. I do not have enough information to truly evaluate that. But that information should be public, in my opinion.
Come to think of it, I never knew about the finances of Billy Graham crusade. It all may have been published somewhere. I just don’t know.
I believe it would be a good thing for all of these conferences, meetings etc. to have open finances. For all I know, they do. I just don’t know.
Until I see the numbers, however, I am going to hold my fire so I don’t make an uninformed judgment.
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Deb, I am so far outside of the Christian homeschooling community that I didn’t recognize any of the names except Michael Farris and one very nice woman that we go to for our testing. Other than that, I’m clueless about all of these speakers. I say this knowing that I probably use some of the curriculum that they promote. That being said, I have no problem questioning some of the curriculum that we use. Questioning some of the things that we have read has led to some great discussions with my kids. I have found this especially true this year using Apologia’s Astronomy with my youngest. It is very set in its young earth point of view. It’s amazing to hear what a 10-year-old thinks about that.
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Segius
Got a new one for your rapier wit. You know of the “Band of Blogger.” I have heard rumors that there are meetings ongoing to develop a theology of blogging. Obviously, our blog won’t make the cut. We will be somehow in violation of some translation of some verse somewhere. Therefore, we will be banned.
So, in anticipation of the outcome, I want to form a new group. “Banned of Bloggers.” Can you develop it??
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Anonymous said,
“Until I see the numbers, however, I am going to hold my fire so I don’t make an uninformed judgment.”
With all due respect, you will probably never see the financials of these conferences, so I guess you will be suspending your judgment indefinitely.
I can tell you that the kingpins in AMWAY are doing something very similar (in fact, these guys probably learned from them), and that is where the majority of their wealth comes from.
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“Those whom we label as ‘Calvinistas’ appear to flock to conferences more than other groups in Christendom. When will they reach a point where they believe they have accumulated enough Biblical wisdom that they no longer need to be a conference junkie? When will they reach a point where they far prefer sharing Jesus with those who do not know Him rather than attending the next big event?”
According to their theology: NEVER! Remember folks, New Calvinism, which is a return to hardcore Geneva-style Calvinism, operates primarily by Gospel Contemplationism. Or as John Piper states: “Beholding as a way of becoming.” Or John MacArthur: “As we gaze on Christ in the Scriptures, we are transformed from glory to glory.” So, conferences are the best way to gaze on “pictures of Jesus” because the conferences are led by the enlightened ones who are experts at “showing forth the gospel and the personhood of Jesus.”
As far as evangelism, God is going to save whoever he is going to save no matter what we do. If we just focus on more and more Jesus, God will use our “mere natural flow” to “show forth Jesus.” After all, as Michael Horton states, it’s our job to show forth the gospel, and “not try to be the gospel.”
Furthermore, now they are indoctrinating the women with the “practical application” of New Calvinism which is nothing more than Gnosticism dressed up with Bible verses. For crying out loud, it’s not even ambiguous: Justin Taylor’s ministry theme is “Between two Worlds.”
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Dee,
We are not the correct gender to be on the band of bloggers. For that reason alone we would be disqualified. 🙂
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@Dee
You got it. Meanwhile, I have an idea for another conference — sent you an e-mail to that effect.
SMG
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paul dohse,
I agree with your comment. It’s sad but true.
BTW, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary’s blog is called “Between the Times”. Same idea as Justin Taylor I presume.
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“Having said that, I tend to believe that conferences and speaking events can be a good thing. It’s a bit like reading a lot. The more you hear, the more you can be inspired etc”
Even your long time reading choices can keep you in a bubble of sorts if one is not careful. What if I only read Jane Austin or Tolstoy? I see this all the time with mongerism books and systematic theology. Going to hear the same thing said a hundred different ways is not a good thing if the foundational premise is wrong.
This is what happened back in the 80’s and 90’s when the seeker mega’s were on the rise. All the conferences were ultimately about leadership and marketing with a fish slapped on it. Whether it was Warren, Hybels, Young, etc, it was the same stuff regurgitated in different ways.
The YRR are doing pretty much the same thing but making it sound more biblical and intellectual if one can do that with Mahaney and Driscoll (Amazing how many think they are). But it is really about masculine Christianity, sex, gender, church structure and church discipline. It is just as man centered as the seekers but with a different twist.
But when your foundational premise is “we are right and everyone else does not get it”, that attracts people. It is Amway religion: Follow us and we will take you there.
The bottom line is fewer and fewer of the seminary educated young men are thinking for themselves anymore or being led by the Holy Spirit instead of man. And that does not bode well for the future of the institutional church.
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“Until I see the numbers, however, I am going to hold my fire so I don’t make an uninformed judgment”
You won’t see the real numbers unless you are on the inside so it hardly matters and you cannot allude that it is a sin for me to speculate as I did conferences for years so know how it works. It can be a huge money maker but conferences have other more important strategic value than gate receipts. That is why we see them on the rise.
And BTW: Billy Graham did not sell tickets to the Crusades so not sure that is a good analogy. They partnered with local churches. At the last crusade in my city, I was on the transportation team. We got it down to moving all those people out of the arena and on buses or to cars in 45 minutes.
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Deb,
In a Spring of 2008 Chapel Message at Southeastern, Paul David Tripp delivered a message entitled “Playing With the Box.” In that message, he presented sin as a realm that could not be overcome by us anymore than the law/realm of gravity. Then he presented the gospel as a separate realm that encapsulated justification and sanctification. Throughout the message, he transitioned between salvation/gospel ideas and Christian living ideas (sanctification) without any transition of subject between the two. Pure unadulterated Gnosticism. The sin realm, and the gospel/Spirit realm. That’s why these guys believe in the total depravity of the saints. To infuse righteousness into mortality is anti-Plato/Augustine/Luther/Calvin. BTW, this issue was at the core (though not specially stated by name) of the Welch/Adams debate concerning heart/flesh and sin.
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….and of course, Adams was on the right side of the argument: sin resides in our flesh, and the heart is redeemed.
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Deb,
This is nothing new, I think. I remember having discussions about “conference Christians” 15 years ago with people who occasionally attended. I think conferences now are larger and more widely advertised, and the internet has had a big influence, whereas conferences used to me more localized in smaller religious circles. Groupies are groupies, but they now have social media to help.
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I noticed that, too, TBD! He loves sexual illustrations as well as words like addiction, obsession, etc. The man has a serious problem. — Victorious
In a way, that adds credibility to his observations. These observations and comparisons are coming from a guy with a serious (sexual) obsession himself.
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How much on average does it cost (travel, lodging, food, conference fee) for someone to attend one of these conferences?
As a close analogy, here’s my estimated budget for AnthroCon, a major furry fandom convention at the Pittsburgh Convention Center:
Airfare (cheap coach): $400
Hotel (5 nights in main con hotel): $600+
Meals (cheap eats downtown Pittsburgh): $100-150
Dealer’s Room/Art Show budget: $100-200
Total between $1200 and $1500. I usually arrive a day or two before the actual con (room & meal expenses) to shake off the jet lag from Los Angeles (I can’t bounce back like I used to) and generally decompress. Arriving without any time cushion would save around $200.
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Normally congoers can save on the hotel bills by sleeping many-to-a-room and splitting the costs, but I can’t take that route. I’m actually sponsoring some other guys out who normally couldn’t afford it. I am not sure that would apply to the CONFERENCE$, but in SF/gamer/furry/anime/any sort of fandom it happens all the time.
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JJ, Bridget2, Craig, Dee, etc.
(I hope I get read here — i invested a lot into this)
My thoughts on the Nancy Ortberg quote,
“Something happened here in this room last night, there’s no doubt about it. There was an incredible amount of energy and enthusiasm and response. Some are calling it worship. I’m not yet convinced.
When the day comes that this community has the same amount of energy, enthusiasm, and responsiveness for the poor, the marginalized, and those far away from God and each other, then I will believe that what I witnessed last night was worship.
Until then, I think what we saw last night was a compartmentalized emotional catharsis, which while it might have been enjoyable, was not worship in any sense of the word.”
***************
I think what’s happening here is this phenomenon of rewriting definitions of words to fit a certain perpsective or worldview. I promise you that if you were to search Bible Gateway on the word “worship” and the hundreds of times if occurs, in almost every instance you will find accompanying words like “bow down”, “fell on their faces”. Literally — not in the modern Western sense of protocol of doing so in one’s heart while standing stoicly bolt upright in a church building on Sunday mornings.
There is nothing about the word “worship” that is not emotional, physical, spiritual, mental, all at the same time. It is celebratory, intense, experiential. At times it is done by choice.
It revives us, refocusses us, refreshes us (sorry about the “r” words). It is a healthy thing, in the way that exercise, healthy food, and hugs are — it changes us. To be perfectly honest (& perhaps all too plain), it is like sex. Orgasm. It is communion with God, and he with us. It goes back & forth, surely bringing him pleasure as it does us.
I have no doubt some readers are thinking “she thinks we can have sex with God! Scandalous trollop, that one!” Not what I’m really saying. Please give me a chance.
I think no one can deny that (1) God desires connection and communication and communion with his creatures (ugh, 4 “c” words in a row!); (2) people desire & need connection and communication and communion with other people and with God. Concerning (2), the ultimate form of that is sex. Concerning (1), the ultimate form of that is what one does when they sing, move, dance, make music, speak words of endearment, focus mentally and emotionally on the object of our highest love and respect (God, of course). And it’s a 2-way thing. Whatever “He inhabits the praises of his people” means, it surely does NOT mean God is absent.
“Worship” (as I’ve been trying to illustrate as being inherently emotional, mental, physical, & which as far as i can tell is the only way people in all cultures the world over throughout history have understood that word to mean) is great and wonderful (for us and for God), but is not and end to itself. If it is the focus to the exclusion of exercising “the same amount of energy, enthusiasm, and responsiveness for the poor, the marginalized, and those far away from God and each other”, then things are very much out of balance. Just as if a couple were to spend inordinate amounts of time in bed enjoying each other’s company to the exclusion of the many other things that are part of being a responsible citizen of world.
But it seems to me to be a lack of true reasoning to not recognize the emotional/physical/mental aspect of the word “worship”. It seems quite presumptuous to redefine the word to fit one’s viewpoint (one’s preferences? one’s prejudices?).
Why not just keep words & activities in their true categories? We can worship (which seems to have always included song or movement or sound, but definitely affection and focus). We can participate in generous and charitable service and kindness to people in our community and the world. Neither to the exclusion of the other.
And if someone expresses their affection and focus on God by such acts of service and kindness and it is worship to them, that’s great. But to take the liberty of making that THE authentic definition of “worship”, labeling anything else as “emotional catharsis”,…. well, it’s just not reasonable. (& to continue in the vein of being plain, it’s kind of snobby)
Romans 12:1 — Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.
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Okay, Wartburghers:
Here’s one more conference to add to the docket [LINK].
SMG
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paul,
I was attending chapel services at SEBTS with some regularity in the spring of 2008, and I wasn’t even a student. I had heard of Paul Tripp back then but didn’t know much about him. I guess that’s why I didn’t go to hear him.
I’ll never forget my first time attending chapel at Southeastern. John MacArthur came, and I went with a friend to hear him. It was September 3, 2003. I remember the date because that was the day we introduced our new church (my former church) to the Raleigh community, and John MacArthur was our keynote speaker. It was an impressive event.
Anyway, while we were listening to MacArthur during chapel at Southeastern, my friend leaned over and whispered: “Do you know about the conflict that is brewing between Calvinists and Arminians?
I responded, “No, I don’t.” She then said very bluntly, “Well, you’d better learn about it!”
No, it wasn’t Dee who said it, but Dee knew her. She has since gone to be with the Lord, and her question and response still ring in my ears.
Gayle, I have done what you recommended – I’ve learned A LOT about the debate. Now Dee and I are blogging about it.
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Sergius,
That was. Great! Thanks for sharing your talent with us.
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Deb:
You are right. I will be suspending my judgment indefinitely about the numbers – BUT NOT that part of my judgment that says this should all be public.
It’s just that until I see the numbers, I am not comfortable making judgments about the numbers.
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In the 70’s our local Charismatic Megachurch hosted conferences I believe they called Prophecy Conferences. The big name speakers on the circuit all came in. One of them, now with the Lord, was getting fed up with the whole conference thing, and this was one of of the last at which he spoke. You can understand why by reading his introduction. This sermon had a tremendously deep, profound impact on my life, even though I didn’t attend the conference. I’m choosing to leave the preacher anonymous so as not to distract from the message. He begins:
“I cannot imagine a more appropriate night for this message. What I have visibly seen of your church life is probably as grand of a religion as can be experienced in our world. I am not sure that it can reach a greater pitch or peak than what has taken place tonight-the glory of the music, the worship, and the spirit of cordiality that prevails in the sanctuary. This has surely got to be the pinnacle, the ultimate in things that have to do with life in the service of God. But, how would you like to let it fall into the ground and die?
Tonight, I am going to paint a picture that so contrasts the euphoria you have just experienced in the service so far. It may well bring you cultural disorientation. In fact, you are going to have to make a rugged choice. Which of these two cultures will you choose? You will have to choose either what you presently know, in all of its glory, or you will have to choose apostolic splendor-fresh out of the book of Acts—in all of its magnitude, grisly sweat, suffering, blood, vexation, distress, and calamity.”
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The first thing I noticed about this article was MD’s vocabulary…we need to send the poor man a list of non-sexual metaphors, similies and allusions he can think about using, if his hormones will allow him. At this time I consider him a prisoner of testosterone.
@Sophie – I would pay money to see you whip a sock off & use it to mime….& as I’m very crafty I’d be delighted to make you, not a sock-monkey, but a sock-Piper that I will personally sew onto a hat so you will have the appropriate spiritual covering at all times. I know this will catch on & then I will finally have enough money to fly to the States & attend a conference. Win-win.
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It occurs to me that many of you would immensely enjoy the satire from this, my favorite blog ever, of all time. This guy is one of my spiritual heroes, and I don’t even “know” him:
http://branthansen.typepad.com/letters_from_kamp_krusty/help_for_visionary_leaders_of_leading_leaders/
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Re Numo’s points about JEB Stuart or Stonewall Jackson being held up as examples of manhood, I don’t know enough about US history to comment on the characters of these men. I do know however that a man may be of good character (as much as any sinner can be) and still serve an evil cause or ruler. For example, Erwin Rommel was much respected for both ability and magnamity by the British, but any discussion of his good character would nevertheless have to include why he was serving such an evil cause and master. The question is whether people use the good character of individual men to whitewash the cause they served.
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PS Sophie, let’s form a sock puppet theatre and turn up at the next single-sex convention!
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Conferences are just a business. Supposively they are suppose to change a person(or renew someone). The people that I have known who went to them are still the same.
And just to add, I’ve been to many womens Bible Studies. It is a big business. I don’t know why most of the women attend. I guess to appear “spiritual” because most are far from it….
Of course if you chose not to go to neither, you are losing out on what God might have for you.
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@ Beakerj
Thank you kindly.
SMG
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Vicki,
Love the link. This one cracked me up….so true!!!
http://branthansen.typepad.com/letters_from_kamp_krusty/2007/10/rule-94—-be-a.html
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Deb
I am proud to be The Banned of Bloggers with you.
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Deb
I am still here, I think. “No, it wasn’t Dee who said it, but Dee knew her. She has since gone to be with the Lord”
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Anon1
Loved this comment
“My friend, I won’t dance around all girly-like like that and mince words. I’ll say it, my way: The church has become too feminized, and the way to rectify it is to make the church sit down, be quiet, and passively listen to awesome people like me.There’s simply nothing manlier than not being able to respond, to just sit there and take it. Women? They have “conversations”. But men? That’s not us. We sit down in large numbers, in rows, audience-style, listen, and quietly accept. Why? We’re men. That’s what we do.
Case in point: On the manly blog I linked to, no one is allowed to leave a public comment. No one. Boldness? Hell, yeah.”
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Sergius and ALl of our Readers, especially Julie Anne
You must,must, must go over to
It is too funny.You are a master. I bow at your feet
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“Torn Between Two Worldviews – This is a great opportunity to learn practical tools to reach non-Christians and to confront the culture with the Truth.”
All right, I agree that we’re supposed to reach the culture and non-Christians with the truth. But the problem with these worldview seminars, academies, blah blah blah, which propagate in the Christian homeschool bubble like guppies, is that they’re not actually helping kids do this. They THINK they are. But when you get inside, what they’re actually doing is filling the kids’ heads with sound bytes. They also operate on the stereotype that all atheists are rude and aggressive (like Richard Dawkins), so they basically teach the kids to be aggressive right back with their Christian “answers.” But there’s several problems with this approach.
1. The “answers” they teach are usually the lamest ones in the book. So if the kids ever do encounter a smart atheist who’s done enough reading to defend their own position, they’ll be ripped to shreds and possibly lose their faith.
2. Not all atheists act like Richard Dawkins. The ones I know are just fine with my religion, and most of them spot problems in the church faster than my Christian friends. All the “conversion by apologetics” approach usually does, in my experience, is alienate the atheists and prematurely cut off ministry opportunities.
These seminars also imply very strongly that the main place Christians meet these super-aggressive “evangelical” atheists is at secular universities (where evil liberal professors cackle with delight as they dock the grades of their creationist students). So the kids walk away with the impression that, if they want to spend their college years doing something other than waging war with the entire faculty and student body of Secular U, they should go to a Christian college. So conservative Christian colleges get backdoor implied advertising through these seminars too.
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Re Doug Wilson, while I strongly disagree with many of his positions, and know of his “Southern Slavery as it was”, from what I read a few years ago, I wouldn’t say he was an outright racist. I don’t know if you remember the website LittleGeneva, but they got miffed when Wilson likened “kinism” to “skinism” and suggested people avoid “kinism”. I do think certain others though use the Confederate cause as a stalking horse for implied racial views, including those who try to make out that the Civil War was some sort of religious conflict between Trinitarian Southerners and Unitarian or liberal Northerners.
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Great comment, elastigirl.
I don’t know the context of the Nancy Ortberg quote, but the questions that came to mind are: is she addressing the whole assembly? How well does she know the people she has just rebuked? Does she know their track record on serving the marginalized?
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@ Kolya:
I agree, it is very difficult to find info about the religious aspects of the Civil War without encountering the neo-Confederate claptrap. That’s a pity, because the religious aspects “as they were” (pardon the pun) are actually quite fascinating. An excellent non-Confederate book on this subject is the Civil War As A Theological Crisis by Mark Noll.
What I can’t figure out is why the conservative Christian community suddenly needs to prove that slavery wasn’t so bad. Will it make them look too “liberal” if we admit that America hasn’t always been perfect? I don’t understand…
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This is classic. Bet you guys have heard some of the same accusations:
http://www.air1.com/blog/brant/post/2012/04/03/If-Jesus-Had-a-Blog-Big-Time-Leaders.aspx#comment
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Okay Okay before we start bashing the anti-vax’ers on the Whooping Cough thing it should be noted that many if not half of the kids with whooping cough in our area of NC are VACCINATED AND UP TO DATE. I specifically made an appointment with our pediatrician because I have an immuno-suppressed child and I was told that it isn’t just the “crazy non-vaccinators” on this one.
The vaccine is not as effective as once thought.
The whooping cough bug has mutated and is somewhat of a “superbug” and is stronger than the vaccine in some cases.
Just throwing that in for educational purposes. My kids are vaccinated for most things. Guardasil & Chicken Pox Varicella shot, no.
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Hi Hester,
Sometimes political groups co-opt Christian or other religious groups into their own agenda. Left-wing groups tend to do this with liberal Christianity, right-wing groups tend to go with conservative Christianity. I think sometimes it is naivety as much as anything. Lenin had a nasty but accurate little phrase: “useful idiots” (for people who would ally with him for something when he knew he could jettison them (or kill them) later on). One of life’s challenges is I guess to avoid being a “useful idiot”.
I haven’t read any of Noll’s books yet but I do want to read “Scandal of the Evangelical Mind” (Os Guinness’s “Fit Bodies, Fat Minds” is possibly similar and certainly quite readable. I also intend to read Roland Numbers creationist history at some point, but needless to say I’m less likely to find these books in my local public library 🙂
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True Words, thank you.
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@Anon1
“horsegurl”, a “commenter” on all the “If Jesus Had a Blog” post, is my #1 spiritual hero.
I’m so glad you’re enjoying Kamp Krusty. 🙂
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True Words,
Thanks for clarifying about the whooping cough. I am concerned about the parents who decide NOT to vaccinate their children. I believe the risk of a deadly disease far outweighs any risks from immunization. I know there are those who disagree.
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dee…did you miss posting a link at 5:57?
Sergius, the rest of my evening will be spent at your blog.:)
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Thanks, Vicki.
And since his name keeps coming up in this thread, I hope you’ll check out the piece we did on Doug Wilson (Federal Vision Was All a Big Joke [LINK])
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@ True Words:
I know most kids in the area of the convention are vaccinated and up-to-date. I was just pointing out that, in the patriarchal subpopulation, there is a statistically higher probability of any given family being “non-vaxxers,” which could up the risk of an outbreak at that particular convention. It wasn’t intended to be a comment on the rightness or wrongness of vaccinations. I hope I didn’t offend.
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@ Kathi:
You wrote: “So, the best way to win Christians is to convert our children. And, forget those public schooled kids. Only the homeschooled kids are saved.”
Actually, this would be very much in line with historical Calvinist/Reformed reasoning. This charge (that evangelism was neglected in favor of converting churchgoers’ children) was leveled at the Puritans, and in many cases was actually true. From Edmund Morgan’s book The Puritan Family (p.174-175):
“When a New England minister preached the gospel, he did not ordinarily address himself to the masses who attended church by command of the state: he spoke either to the church members, who already had grace, or else to their children. When the Puritans were accused of neglecting the work of conversion, they denied the charge not on the ground that they converted ordinary sinners but on the ground that they converted their children. … Puritan ministers apparently tried to convert two kinds of people: hypocrites who had been admitted to membership by mistake, and the children of the godly who enjoyed membership though not converted. Not a word about the mass of men who remained in the outer darkness!”
So I guess, once again, there’s nothing new under the sun.
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Hester – that whole “slavery wasn’t such a bad thing” line seems to have become popular in Doug Wilson’s circle during the 2008 presidential campaign season…
And I honestly don’t know how one could argue FOR the existence of chattel slavery in the US and *not* be a racist by default. It reminds me all too much of cross burnings and the horrific attacks on black people who tried to register to vote and/or who otherwise took part in the Civil Rights movement.
(But then, I think the US is arguably a very racist country in general, and not just re. people of African/African American descent…)
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I staffed a Congressional hearing on vaccinations in 1978 that led to the decision to substitute a federal insurance program for tort liability for vaccine manufacturers. The data is overwhelming that negative reactions to vaccination are few and far between, and rarely severe, but some do occur. However, there is also the fact that young children are sensitive to a lot of things and there are other events in their lives, and any of those may be correlated with vaccination, and it is impossible to determine whether the vaccine is a cause or not.
The guardasil vaccination is a good protection for both males and females from severe risks associated with an infection that is most frequently transmitted by sexual activity (but not always, and not always intercourse). The vaccine is effective if given before exposure. It is not a license to have sex however, because there are many other STDs out there that also have severe consequences. The infection that the vaccine protects against is increasingly widespread and can be totally silent, until the damage is done and an often fatal cancer occurs. Why not protect a child against possible innocent exposure to this devastating plague.
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Arce
I had all three of my children, which includes 2 girls and one boy, vaccinated with guardasil. I am the first person in line when they come out with vaccines. Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe that Abigail Adams had her children, as well as herself, experimentally vaccinated against small pox. In those days, the used fluid taken from an infected pox and scratched it into the skin of the healthy person.That took guts. I also do not think she asked John for permission since he was away running the country. I always admired her and that is why one of my daughters is named for her.
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Re Numo’s points about JEB Stuart or Stonewall Jackson being held up as examples of manhood, I don’t know enough about US history to comment on the characters of these men. I do know however that a man may be of good character (as much as any sinner can be) and still serve an evil cause or ruler. — Kolya
I used to hang out with some Civil War history buffs. Everything I’ve heard about Jeb Stuart, Stonewall Jackson, and Marse Robert was they were men of sterling character. Stuart was a bit of a grandstander and Stonewall was frighteningly intense (though not as much as Bedford Forrest), but in everything else they were the archetype of the Southern Gentleman.
And as for their defense of their Peculiar Institution, there were a couple of factors nobody realizes nowadays:
1) White Supremacy was believed to be as fundamental a law of Nature as gravity, on both sides of Mason-Dixon.
2) A fish doesn’t know it’s wet. When you’ve grown up within a system, it is what’s normal and you resist change. Especially when that change is being demanded of you by outsiders from the North (many of whom were from New England — trust-fund kiddies whose daddies had made their fortune importing and selling certain Animate Property to the South).
3) And that every culture has their blind spots. Theirs are blatantly obvious to us, 150+ years later. What are ours?
What I can’t figure out is why the conservative Christian community suddenly needs to prove that slavery wasn’t so bad. Will it make them look too “liberal” if we admit that America hasn’t always been perfect? I don’t understand… — Hester
So they’re not just getting nostalgic for the mythology that accreted around the Confederate States (i.e. the Southern Gentleman and the Lost Cause), but actually their Peculiar Institution regarding certain Animate Property?
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HUG – men of sterling character where other white people were concerned, perhaps.
They knew what went on re. black women being assaulted; maybe they had a few kids of their own that they didn’t talk about.
The Brits made slavery illegal well ahead of the US. Their abolitionists were out there 1st. We ignored that despite the unbelievable human cost.
We were very, very wrong and I do not think for one single minute that God was terribly happy with those supposed “gentlemen,” any more than he likely was/is with members of the KKK.
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Hi elastigirl
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
My intention in sharing the quote wasn’t to deny or downplay the authenticity of people’s communion with God through praise and song. And I don’t believe that Nancy Ortberg, in sharing that experience, intended to do that either.
As it says in the verse you mentioned, ‘I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” (Romans 12:1-2) Yes, worship is deep communion with God, an affective, consuming adoration. And it also encompasses the renewal of our minds, embodying sacrificial living and discerning God’s will. It’s all worship. It’s all part of presenting ourselves as living sacrifices.
I don’t think that the term ‘worship’ is being rewritten to “fit a certain perspective or worldview”. You seem to be drawing a distinction between musical/emotional worship and other forms of worship (teaching scripture, sacrificial living, community with others, work etc). We both agree that these activities need to balance and interact with one another. But I don’t think one can categorise musical praise as ‘worship’ and place other expressions outside that definition.
The excerpt from Nancy Ortberg meant a lot to me because I have witnessed the hype and emotionalism that can masquerade as worship. I still agree with Nancy’s identifying the ‘emotional catharsis’ element in many praise services. And part of my point was that the same kind of hype can prevail at bible-based preaching-heavy conferences where people can ride a brief emotional high that sadly can be divorced from any renewed commitment to selfless, Christlike living.
To illustrate this point using your sex analogy: if a couple has an active sex life, but is inconsiderate to each other in all other arenas – well, it casts doubt on the authenticity of their relationship. It makes their claims of love ring false. And the shallowness of one relationship doesn’t make all other sexual relationships unloving.
One of the points of the quote was that people can feed off the intensity of the emotional experience, and seek it out, because it does indeed provide a form of shared catharsis. As Nancy Ortberg said in a later paragraph, ‘That night, I observed hundreds of people getting caught up in the way the singing made them feel, even though many of them were divorced from God in most other areas of their lives.’ Separated from a life that is being transformed, and a mind that is being renewed, these intense emotional expressions appear merely self-gratifying and inauthentic.
Isaiah 29:13 ‘…these people draw near with their mouth and honour me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me…’
You said the quote showed a “lack of true reasoning”, was “presumptuous” and “quite snobby”. I don’t think so. I don’t agree that it pragmatically redefined worship, or that it labelled all forms of affective worship “emotional catharsis”. In fact, I think it brought the definition of worship into fuller perspective: as a communion with God that encompasses many aspects – emotional adoration, and a lifestyle that turns from selfishness to selflessness and being more like Christ. It’s about being a ‘living sacrifice’, about one’s whole life being worship.
I didn’t share the quote to deny the real all-encompassing experience of praising God, and the excerpt didn’t dismiss that reality either. We differ in how we categorise these expressions, but I believe we’re on the same page, Elastigirl 🙂
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@Rene –
Nancy Ortberg was at a young adults’ retreat run by the church at which she is a leader. She would know most of the people she was addressing.
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@ HUG:
That’s the thing. None of them seem to be saying we should re-enslave anybody. But for some reason, they feel driven to prove that slavery as an institution is okay, and this gets extended to Southern slavery (even though it matches none of the criteria for “acceptable” slavery in the Old Testament). Probably yet another tenet of Reconstructionism/Dominionism seeping into people’s minds as that theology continues to implant itself deeper in the American Christian mindset.
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Headless Unicorn Guy makes some very good points. Every culture does indeed have its blind spots, and some things for centuries were deemed normal, including in the mindset of North American and European white people (speaking as one myself). If you read the Wikipedia article on John Newton, it shows that he did not become an abolitionist until many years after his conversion, although he felt the slowness of his change of his mind was a reproach to himself.
It will be interesting to see how people 500 years from now view our own time. Certainly the supposedly more enlightened 20th century (which did have some great moments) looks now like several decades of murderous insanity.
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” haves been reading a book about the SBC takeover. In it, the authors discuss how the inerrancy issue was used to fool people into thinking that anyone who did not agree with them was unbiblical. Same game, different name this time.
”
I must have missed this one. One of the most telling things for me is to read the SBC blogs and see the middle aged guys who were the equivalent of the “in your face” young YRR guys in the early days of the CR takeover of the SBC, now freaking out over the angry YRR guys who want to take over. What comes around goes around. The CR was about power but at least their reasons made more sense. There were a few (not a lot we know now) profs at SBC seminaries teaching things like no virgin birth, etc. So they took a few examples and blew it into a full blown crisis to take over the SBC.
There used to be 40,000 messengers (lay people mostly) attending conventions back in the early 90’s. Now they are lucky to have 6 thousand attending and they are mostly church staff people. So, I think that means the CR was successful. Only the leaders are really involved now. No more priesthood. Mohler is proud.
Now, the issue is Calvinism because “Calvinism is the real thing” and our “founders were Calvinists”.
Same tactics: We are the “real” Christians. We have the “truth” and they don’t. The non Calvinsts are just too ignorant to see it. And there is your rallying cry for a takeover using the young and ignorant.
All that is left is that Al Mohler wants the money the non Calvinists give to the SBC to plant more Calvinist churches and once it has reached the target then he is the pope of Geneva and won’t need non Calvnist money anymore or he has made them de facto Calviists (perhaps a 3 pointer because they are in the Calvinist club whether they like it or not).
But we all know there are plenty of church buildings in the US. But they are not the right kind. The Nicolaitans want churches they control.
All of this has only made me move further and further away from any institutionalized form church at all.
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Sergius – that was great – hilarious!
I am concerned about conferences. Lately, I’ve been tooting my horn a little loudly about homeschooling conventions and now it’s clear that these other conferences where big-name people come are of the same ilk.
Our psyche tends to want to find groups to associate with, we make an emotional connections with these people who are in the spotlight at the conferences, grab hold of their ideas, jump on the speakers’ bandwagon and then take them back to our boring churches and try to get them riled up. At least that’s what I’ve seen. This is a very powerful thing going on and I can see exactly why it led us to Beaverton Grace Bible Church. The pastor was promoting all the right “agenda”. And now it makes me sick because once again, it was all for the image. And if you read my blog – even my most recent post – it’s about a false image.
It just dawned on me: I wonder how much church division these conferences are causing in the local church? I know we’ve come back from homeschooling conventions with a new critical eye at how our church has been doing things. Ok – wow – even as I type, things are clicking for me.
Michelle? Are you reading this?
“So, the best way to win Christians is to convert our children. And, forget those public schooled kids. Only the homeschooled kids are saved.”
This is a popular thought at homeschool conventions. And it, too, brings division to churches. Remember the psyche/group thing – the homeschoolers become a group in a church and may have difficulty connecting to parents who send their kids to school. At the conventions, they are of course taught that homeschooling is best, they do not refer to public schools as “public”, but “government” schools in a very negative sense. There becomes an elitism because you feel you are doing the very best by homeschooling and they are giving their children basically to the devil. And then of course you don’t want your children associating with children who are going to government schools because they are more worldly and so on = more division in the church.
Now, don’t get me wrong – I’m sure there is an agenda in the public school, but let me tell you, there is most certainly an agenda not only in homeschool conventions, but the curricula as well.
Let’s not forget the conferences and camps geared to our teens: someone mentioned worldview. Josh Harris naturally came in the spotlight as he was tagging along with his dad, Gregg Harris, helping him at homeschool conventions for years and then began with New Attitude (and wasn’t I Kissed Dating Good-bye included in that, too?). His brothers, Alex and Brett – have the online blog Rebelution and also speak in conferences geared to youth/college age.
And we must not forget about Patrick Henry College. Which is a bit interesting because for a time, the trend in homeschooling seemed to be to not encourage our homeschooled children to go to college, but learn skills/trades, be self-sufficient, etc, yet somehow Michael Farris and HSLDA created a new niche for homeschoolers and convinced them this was the place to send them. It’s geared for homeschoolers – – Why?? To get them educated on law, to protect homeschooling freedoms, to get them involved in the government. Go research HSLDA and look at some of the connections there with Dominionists. Julie Anne . . .stop typing . . . you’re getting worked up.
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I went to ONE “Promise Keepers” conference. Paid $75 to get in, and they took up an offering. Biggest waste of time.
Went to a “Marriage Conference,” Friday night and Saturday. Another waste of time. And those there were only hawking their books.
I have gone to several “Pastors Conferences.” By far the most unsociable people I have ever met.
I don’t go to conferences anymore…
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Julie Anne,
We have investigated and discussed much of what you just shared. I homeschooled my daughters for four years back in the 1990s, and the last homeschool conference I attended featured Doug Phillips as the keynote speaker. It was May 1998, and that was the year Vision Forum was launched. As I look back, I think I got out just in time.
My Christian daughter now teaches at a “government” school, and she is a wonderful influence on her students. I know the public school system has problems, but I firmly believe that the radical (Dominionist) homeschooling gurus like Doug Phillips and his ilk are much, much worse!
My daughters are now grown and still following the Lord passionately. As a seasoned parent, I would like to share the following with those of you who are on the fence about how to educate your children.
Whether you choose public education, private schools, or homeschooling, the single BIGGEST influence on your child’s life is Y-O-U!
Julie Anne,
You are continually in my prayers. 🙂
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I’ve always loved the expression “government school.”
But let’s face it: the cafeterias are one of the few places you can still get a good slice of “government cheese.”
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@ Julie Anne:
Patrick Henry is a Dominionist incubator. Plain and simple. They push it hard for homeschoolers but never mention that the majors/programs fall only in the narrow political science/debate slice. They have no real arts/music/dance programs to speak of. It dovetails nicely with the debate classes homeschool parents shove their kids into in high school.
What cracks me up about “Christian” debate programs is that they all claim to teach kids the truth. But debate can’t teach you truth at all. Debate can teach you how to construct an argument and defend your position, which can be a good tool to defend the truth. But it’s not the truth itself. That’s why you can win a mock debate defending mass murder – your presentation was better. In my experience, debate has a much better chance of teaching lawyering and relativism than the truth.
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JJ,
Thanks for your reply. That does make a lot of difference.
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“We were very, very wrong and I do not think for one single minute that God was terribly happy with those supposed “gentlemen,” any more than he likely was/is with members of the KKK.”
Numo, When reading a bio of Boyce (Founder of SBTS) written by Broadus (of hymnal fame) it was said that Boyce was against succession until he found out that ending slavery was a condition of staying with union. Then he decided succession was bad. Boyce’s reasoning was that only with slavery could they “witness” properly to that population. He really thought they were doing great things for God because of their teaching the slaves about Jesus. But if they were not slaves they would not be a captive audience to his great truth he had to share with them. (He was a Calvinist, btw, which may or may not have something to do with it. Calvinists are big into “natural hierarchies and specially anointed ones instituted by God”)
How is that for cognative dissonance? And Broadus was writing as a man very impressed with this great man of God. Amazing.
I think all of this is a big part of why the SBC moved away from Calvinism so long ago. But now Mohler’s great move to bringing Calvinism back is highlighting a lot of this stuff for the first time for many people.
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There are normal homeschoolers around. We are a small minority but we’re around 🙂
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True Words,
I was one of those normal homeschooling moms.
FYI, my hubby and I drove to Winston-Salem yesterday afternoon, and I thought of you as we passed through Mebane. Shopping trip! We need to get together soon.
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Yes! We must. As soon as softball/baseball/volleyball is done for me in a few weeks we shall make a date 🙂
I’m not far from Winston either 🙂
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Elastigirl –
Thanks for your reply. You’re right that we need to be careful how we view other people’s worship practices and not make assumptions. My comment was broad and mainly in regards to out narrow definition of what worship is. I do believe that the worship time at conferences can have the “group think/brain-numbing effect. I have experienced that myself. I also see how much time and effort and money goes into the Sunday morning time at many churches. I can look up at the stars, watch a caterpillar inch across the yard, watch birds building a nest, see a sunset, watch a 70ish year old man get a college degree (brought me to tears), or any other of a million things that can bring me to a worshipful attitude toward our Heavenly Father 🙂 Maybe it is something that hallens with a bit of age, but I see God in so much of His creation. This doesn’t even begin to address how we can worship without uttering word or hearing a sound. I just wish worship would be taught in a broader sense.
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Anon1 – many sincere thanks for that slice of history/info.! I did not know that… and, sadly, it makes complete sense to me.
If you check out some of the better general-reader-type books on the early collectors of music played and sung by African Americans during the antebellum ear, you’re in for a shock – because almost every music researcher went to white informants rather than actually spending time with – and talking to – black folks.
It gets super-creepy, as these white “informants” tended to wax eloquent on the supposed good ol’ days when race relations were wonderful. They truly believed that abolition had destroyed ***black*** culture and that those who were enslaved ***benefited from it in every way.***
Talk about cognitive dissonance to the 100th power!!!
*
Hester – re. Patrick Henry, you know it!
A couple of years ago I had some not-so-happy exchanges with a Patrick henry grad (in his early 30s, an attorney) who loved to go on and on about so-called “standards” for “manhood” and “womanhood.”
At present, he is making arguments about absolute standards for aesthetic beauty… as someone who studied the arts, I just cannot fathom where (or how) he comes up with his arguments – and he handles them as if he’s talking about case law.
The thing is, what he ends up saying is pretty subjective – and very much based on his personal tastes – but he doesn’t see that (yet).
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“Era,” not “ear.”
The worst thing about those “good old days” is that the people who made those statements were doing so as the KKK was running rampant all over the South, committing murder and mayhem.
(I do not believe we have gotten very far past that era in many ways, though i realize that not all will agree…)
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Hi, JJ.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate the thoughtful dialogue. My favorite thing in the world to do, I think. Smalltalk? nah – I’d much rather explore the meaning of “beauty”, or “peace”, or hatching a plan of escape to Iceland with a kindred spirit over beverages of choice and a candle in a lowlit place. (anyone?)
–re: “You seem to be drawing a distinction between musical/emotional worship and other forms of worship (teaching scripture, sacrificial living, community with others, work etc).”
Let me refine my thoughts here: Where the concept of “worship” is concerned, I do see a distinction between (a) affection & mental/emotional focus (often accompanied by music, sound, physical expressions of some kind), and (b) task-oriented horizontal things like teaching, work, sacrificial living, community with others. We can do these things in (b) with sincere hearts, do them for God and because of God and rely on God to join with us to bring a dunamis power element to the results of our human effort. While we do these things, we can take a moment out here & there to say, in one way or another, “You’re the best, God”. Or perhaps, some of us can multitask and do the tasks/horizontal things while at the same time “streaming” a “You’re awesome, God”. In each case, we’re incorporating “worship” into what we’re doing.
But to call activities that are cerebral, administrative, task-oriented, social, or involving physical labor “worship” (if done because of God, for God) to me just redefines all the mystery & wonder out of the word (in the sense of the word as I’ve been describing).
I can think of 2 things that shaped my point of view here. One was a number of years ago when my husband & I were playing on the “worship team” (me on piano, he on bass). Even calling it a “worship team” – ugh – reducing it all down to task and function. Someone made the comment “Will we see you at worship practice tonight?”, referring to our weekly rehearsal – ugh aGAIN! But all we were doing was going over songs, who starts, key changes, transitions, solos, ….. so, in practice, this thing called “worship” has become merely a series of tasks.
The 2nd thing that shaped my thinking was watching John Kerry visit a large church on a Sunday morning when he was running for president. He strides up to the podium and says something like “It’s so good to be here to worship the Lahrd” (annoying voice & all). It was on network news. I know nothing about his spiritual convictions, other than they had absolutely nothing to do with why he was there that day. So, what I observed was equating merely being in a church building, in a pew on a Sunday morning as “worship”. Heck, even political campaigning is “worship” if one does it on a Sunday morning in a church building.
Ever since, I’ve noticed the word “worship” tossed around as a label for task and function in this institutionalized system of spirituality. Something as wondrous and mysterious as making connection with the God of the universe….. all organized down into a system. Unbearable.
******
–re: “I have witnessed the hype and emotionalism that can masquerade as worship”
Could it be a matter of what one is used to? Could it have simply been exhuberance? Enjoying it for what it was? Corporate singing, making music, focusing on God with affection can be highly pleasurable. A celebration. And I do believe he responds back with his affection to us. It makes me wonder what’s the problem with something being pleasurable? I do think that Chrisitianity often has difficulty with “pleasure”. It is suspect. Doesn’t mesh with “taking up one’s cross”. Rings with “carnality”.
I agree with you that a brief emotional high divorced from renewed commitment to selfless, Christlike living is not how it should be. But what is wrong with exhuberance for God, in and of itself? Is 20 minutes acceptable? 45 minutes acceptable? But anything over an hour is just hype. Especially once people start moving a little too much. And jumping? Twirling? Hype for sure. Seeming to drink something in with their whole body? Now we’re moving into scary! (I know I sound a little snarky here – I’m sorry – I’ve just hit an artery of my conviction here) I daresay God’s presence and affection flowing down on someone is deeper pleasure than anything else in the universe and a catharsis emotional, spiritual, physical maybe will happen. And rightly so. Would we expect anything less from God’s affection? I’m not talking about “doctrine” about the love of God – I’m talking about affection that God has for us. Something in the moment, not in a textbook.
************
–re: Isaiah 29:13 ‘…these people draw near with their mouth and honour me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me…’
Great verse. Fully applicable. And I think that one can draw near with their mouth and honor God with their lips and find high pleasure in the exhuberance of it, to the point of catharsis, and have a heart that is near to God (rather than one that is far from him).
***********
Chances are you agree with much of what I wrote above. I don’t mean to argue with you. Like I said, I hit an artery of my convictions on the topic . I apologize if he seemed to poo poo the excerpt from Nancy Ortberg that I know has meant a lot to you.
I’m now far spent. TTFN
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@ Numo:
OMG yes. I cannot count how many times I’ve heard Christians try to come up with absolute standards for the arts. Without fail, none of their “absolutes” are in any way Biblical or usually even sensible. They’re always based on their personal tastes and the idea that “old is good.” (How old can be good they can never explain. All old stuff was once new stuff, so wouldn’t it then be bad? Or is age really the only determining factor here? Maybe God only likes his music aged, like fine wine.)
I don’t have time tonight, as I have to go to bed, but I have a really annoying book lying around by D. James Kennedy, in which he made a hilariously bad attempt to prove why all modern art and music were the work of the devil. He even made some statements about history that were just flat out wrong. Maybe I’ll dig it out tomorrow and post some of those gems for TWW’s amusement. : )
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One of the most telling things for me is to read the SBC blogs and see the middle aged guys who were the equivalent of the “in your face” young YRR guys in the early days of the CR takeover of the SBC, now freaking out over the angry YRR guys who want to take over. — Anon1
Anyone remember the last scene of the 1968 satirical movie Wild in the Streets?
“Don’t trust anyone over 12.”
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Hi, Bridget2.
Thanks for your kind reply. Well, nothing I hate more than “group think” and brain numbing. I’ve had my own season of being an automaton, nodding-of-head-in-agreement-unawares & all.
hmmmm…. this whole template of a “church service” (same as a conference meeting). We have this great music (a highly subjective matter, of course), it is is moving, energizing, convicting,… by then we’re butter. *We’d receive anything from anyone*, echo an amen without even realizing it, bobbling head in agreement to something we really didn’t even mentally process. No opportunity for critical thinking, but it sure feels good to all be together, my “brothers” or my “sisters” (although i don’t know who they are or anything about them).
Or, when the music just doean’t ring the bell, and we’re still the brick we were when we shuffled out of bed. Now to listen to someone talk for 30 minutes. Yeah, it’s Paul again. Hmmmm, Fuddruckers when we get out of here? Or Indian? Nah, too spicy for the kids, Fudd’s it is. But darn, a chicken korma sounds good. Ok, what’s he talking about now? Looks like he’s hitting a few verses in Romans. Now I’m tracking. Oh, gotta stop at Walmart on the way home — outta toilet paper. Can’t forget that!….
Just how many people can actually process information by listening to one person drone on for 30 minutes? Perhaps a bit here and a bit there is processed — but not much.
HOWEVER, a small study group… where we can discuss, tear apart, ask questions, share insight, dialogue… I would venture to guess that more people learn so much better that way.
I love encountering God through musical and expressive worship. But it doesn’t prepare one for critical thinking of a sermon / lesson meant to teach. (I really don’t think that’s what worship is for, anyway.) Why the seeming requirement to bundle the 2 together??? Do any professional christians even think about these things? Why do we perpetuate this template, seemingly without thinking? As if it’s a given.
so tired from the day….. i’m not replying well to you….
(i’ll flog my brain here) — LOVED your description of seeing God in nature, and in the 70 year old college graduate. Beyond wonderful.
And your statement, “This doesn’t even begin to address how we can worship without uttering word or hearing a sound. I just wish worship would be taught in a broader sense.”
I agree. I agree. Corporate worship can be fanstastic. But yes, something silent, solitary,….
(this is actually putting me to sleep at the moment…)
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From reading the NT, I do not see that we were ever intended to be an a perpetual audience sitting in pews listening to one guy week after week. Most of this sort of preaching went on outside of the Body meeting.
But nowadays we call it part of “worship” which is probably true since it seems to be a sort of worship of the speaker who is in many cases a mini celeb.
And don’t get me started about it all being a performance. All my years backstage with mega’s prove this is very very true. To them, it was like putting on a weekend show.
There was one mega I know of that you were not allowed on their stage if you were deemed (in their opinion) more than 40 lbs overweight. So fat people were not allowed on stage. In fact, one staffer was put on probation about being on stage until he lost the weight. Pretty embarassing since everyone on the 500+ staff knew and was watching.
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Hi elastigirl
I too appreciate the dialogue! Have never thought to escape to Iceland – though I’d like to visit the Outer Hebrides one day…
I think we agree on a lot, and we’re just looking at this from different angles. Tomayto, tomahto perhaps? Here in South Africa we say ‘tomahto’ 😉 And like you mentioned, our personal experience with church will shape our views.
“Ever since, I’ve noticed the word “worship” tossed around as a label for task and function in this institutionalized system of spirituality. Something as wondrous and mysterious as making connection with the God of the universe…all organized down into a system. Unbearable.”
Indeed. I completely agree! I too am repulsed at the thought of connection with God being reduced to institutional spiritual systems and rote-religiosity. Maybe one of the things I’d add is that I believe all churches can fall prey to the systematised so-called worship…even those that are usually associated with more exuberant praise sessions, such as certain non-denominational or charismatic churches.
And my own church history influences my thoughts on this. I’ve experienced a variety of worship styles and practices, most recently having attended a charismatic church for quite a few years, and then a Calvinista one in which I organised the music for over a year. (It was the latter church that made me give up church completely…but that’s another story.)
That’s where the worship-as-lifestyle point comes in. It’s about the heart, isn’t it? Emotion and exuberance in praise can be an extension of a life that is rooted in and orientated towards God…conversely, a whole lotta energy could be expended in singing or emoting as a distraction from a life that isn’t all that committed to God. Or someone who loves and follows God might be deeply moved by the symbolism and practice of a liturgical service, but someone else might go through the same service as one might tick off a point in a spiritual checklist. And just because I’m now drawn to quieter, contemplative forms of praise, doesn’t discount those who connect with God more exuberantly.
For me, viewing worship as a lifestyle helps my understanding of following Christ. It can bring meaning to the mundane and consecrate everyday moments.
So…I think we both agree that we agree on a lot 🙂 And I think Nancy Ortberg would agree too 😉
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Hi, JJ. Thanks for continuin’ on here. So, you’re in South Africa! The place I’d most like to visit, actually. Where in S.A.?
I live in California, and have read many Wilbur Smith books. Are you familiar with him? The series about Sean and Gary Courtney’s lives from childhood onward. My favorite: The Burning Shore, about the young girl from France in WWI, volunteering as a nurse, falls in love with Sean Courtney’s son (a S.A. pilot stationed in France), she ends up on a hospital ship bound for South Africa, ship sinks, she makes it to shore, makes her way through the Kalahari Desert, meets a San couple who help her survive…. amazing adventure. It’s all so incredibly vivid — i feel like I’ve already spent much time in South Africa (mostly in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, though).
Also really loved his book Eagle In The Sky (south african young man who finds himself as a pilot in Israel’s military — more amazing adventure and story about life).
Iceland — it just seems so delightfully remote — it seems so entirely removed from whatever junk is happening in America, the middle east, etc. (not really true, though). Maybe it’s that it’s comletely removed from the constant mess and noise in my house, and the interpersonal drama of the hour. That much IS true.
To continue our conversation: Where something as complex and multifaceted and rich and mysterious and personal as spirituality is concerned, I really balk at systems and rules (set up by a relative few for everyone else to conform to). Get claustrophobic just typing those words.
One of the slogans and “selling points” of popular christianity is that “it’s a relationship, not a religion”. (kind of like “hate the sin, love the sinner” — often very empty words that are anything but accurate).
Relationship is knowing and being known by someone, in real time, each reaching out to and responding to the other. By “religion”, the idea is a set of rules one must follow to know God.
Now, a group of people are making music, singing, shouting, cheering, swaying, dancing, jumping, reaching with their physical bodies as an expression of reaching with their spiritual selves, receiving with their physical bodies as an expression of receiving with their spiritual selves. Another group (or individual) observes this and discounts it by deeming it emotional hype. What they are actually saying is that this is inappropriate, and what it makes it so is that it crosses some universal boundary of what is right and what isn’t — it infringes upon a rule, a set of rules.
Now, you tell me — of the approaches of the 2 groups in the illustration, which one is more about relationship? which one is more about religion?
(I’m sorry, i sound like I’m aruging with you and Nancy Ort. Please don’t take it as such)
I also realize the illustration works in the converse (people accustomed to exhuberant, expressive worship passing judgement on more inward forms of worship that aren’t observable outwardly). I’m actually wanting to work on more contemplative things myself.
I think it’s very unhealthy and just plain foolish to have a one-size-fits-all approach to spiritual things. God things. Behavior & lifestyle things in relation to these. To impose a limited set of “ways” on others clearly conveys small-mindedness, immaturity, and poor character (lack of imagination; prejudice, need for control, need for recognition, desire for power).
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Hi, Anon1.
I’m on a commenting roll here. Pure silliness, isn’t it. Not enough oxygen, it seems. Too many people breathing in other peoples’ exhales. Thinking other peoples’ thoughts and making them their own.
Let’s meet on top of Half Dome sometime, breath deep, and meet with God. Who’s coming? My bible is pretty compact — it’ll be in my backpack.
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The 2nd thing that shaped my thinking was watching John Kerry visit a large church on a Sunday morning when he was running for president. He strides up to the podium and says something like “It’s so good to be here to worship the Lahrd” (annoying voice & all). — Elastigirl
Senator J.F.Kerry. Poor sods who were in that church having to listen to him. Guy’s a cartoon of himself — wanna bet his next sentence started out “When I Served In Vietnam…”?
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I love encountering God through musical and expressive worship. But it doesn’t prepare one for critical thinking of a sermon / lesson meant to teach. (I really don’t think that’s what worship is for, anyway.) Why the seeming requirement to bundle the 2 together??? — Elastigirl
The Gospel According to Mary Poppins?
“Just a spoonful of sugar (musical and emotional expression)
Makes the medicine (sermon meant to teach) go down,
The medicine go down,
The medicine go down;
Just a spoonful of sugar
Makes the medicine go down…”
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Headless —
Yes, I think quite a few professional christians knowingly do things this way to make their medicine go down, and to warm up the crowd for their turn in the limelight. (Little do they know how many people are actually making their shoppings lists, lunch plans, & general zoning out.)
Many others of these p.c.’s simply don’t ponder, deeply or not, beyond the confines of “the way things are is the way things are”.
I really dislike being a part of such an unimaginative subculture.
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For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their desires
II Timothy 4:3
Just sayin’…
I know the Calvinistas love to throw this Bible bullet to denounce anyone outside their camp, but the addiction to conferences sounds a lot like getting “ears tickled,” no?
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Randall Slack-May 19 10:42,
Yeah, they only socialize with those who they feel can do something for them and with those who will stroke their huge egos… What a contradiction……
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While Mark Driscoll does make a good point about the conference addicts and all of the fanboys (and girls), I wish he would follow through then and stop speaking at conferences/talk shows, stop putting himself up on a pedestal, and stop tweeting out every thought he has that often just stirs up the drama and/or incites mans’ empty praise of MD. I can hardly read his facebook page without getting incensed by all of his comments that are in the vein of boasting, arrogance, and/or offense. And he is responsible for giving an outlet for people to bicker and fight about his comments. If he know it’s a problem, then he shouldn’t contribute to the pastor worship tendency.
We all have the tendency to worship the created and should always be searching our hearts for the proper motivation. Sometimes we all want the latest book or fad more than we want Jesus. This is a tendency since the beginning of time. But pastors should also make sure they are not contributing to the problem. I went to Mars Hill for 4.5 years and I am so tired of Mark Driscoll elevating himself to an inappropriate level and then wondering why there is a sickness about people fanboying him and other celeb pastors. The fact that he does book giveaways, autographs, and poses for pictures makes me want to vomit. In my community group, I noticed how sometimes we, myself included, would quote Mark Driscoll more than Jesus or the Bible. It was so wrong and I am now very cognizant about making sure that my heart really wants to learn about Jesus and Scripture and not just the latest book or conference. Sometimes it’s also laziness in looking to others to study Scripture and not do the work ourselves. I believe conferences do have their place but, like someone else said, our guards should always be up and we should constantly be using discernment about our motivations and the validity about the information we are receiving. We shouldn’t walk through the church or conference doors and think we can zone out and turn off our radars (Holy Spirit).
While Mars Hill Church has hurt me and many others deeply, I believe God can turn this around. I did grow a lot in my faith and knowledge while attending that church and there are many wonderful people that I still have contact with. I think they have a lot of refining to do and hopefully they will obey God and not man. They have gotten off course, but God can rein them back in. However, the sheer volume of information that they disseminate via lengthy sermons, blogs, websites, social media, books, and conferences concerns me. I believe it makes it hard for people, especially new Christians to discern the information and makes it easier for Satan to twist Scripture and use people that may or may not be in the right head/heart space with Jesus/Holy Spirit. Proverbs 10:9 “When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent.”
Though it is tiring, we can never turn off our radars and coast in this Christian life. We are all, at times, complicit in this problem by having hearts that easily stray and seek to worship a golden calf or king more than Jesus and with sober-mindedness we should be full of prayer that our hearts will truly be “all about Jesus”. 1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.”
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” Why is it so many of the experts on being a woman are male?”
LOL, so true…
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Talking about “professional Christians” reminded me of something I have thought about for a while. In every profession there is probably the temptation to need to justify one’s position by claiming one is bit more necessary than one really is, eg some politicians like to point out how much legislation they’ve helped pass, some lawyers may want to dot all the i’s and t’s, etc. And perhaps this tendency is no different in the circles that “professional Christians” occupy. So we have the conference circuit, etc, and the urging of people to do this, that and the other. The other danger I suspect in being a “professional Christian” is that one forgets what it is like to not be one, ie the ordinary Christian whose God-given vocation is working in other employment but who has to deal with bread-and-butter issues. (Likewise I know I’ve been guilty of a bit of inverted snobbery and thinking “that guy can’t possibly understand my life from up there in the pulpit!”). Lynne on here earlier reminded me of the priesthood of all believers, and I think that is something we need to get back to.
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Why is it so many of the experts on being a woman are male?
Classic. What’s Piper’s next lecture on? Being a good Korean?
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David C
You should join forces with Sergius. You guys have the same sort of humor-one that makes me laugh myself silly.
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Hi, Kolya.
re: “professional christians” — I can’t help but feeling that a large reason behind the push for small groups, becoming a “member”, etc. is job security for said professionals. Justifies their job. It creates need. Creates work for them to do. And revenue. When in actual fact knowing God & pursuing God is free, he’s available EVERY day of the week at any hour, there are any number of things the people I know who are spiritually like-minded can plan to do together in our God pursuits…
I truly appreciate the staff at our church — they are great. But at the same time these thoughts are very abrasive to my common sense.
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Hi, elastigirl.
South Africa’s a very beautiful, though troubled country. I’ve heard of Wilbur Smith but haven’t read any of his books. I actually visited California once 🙂
Yup, I too “balk at systems and rules set up by a relative few for everyone else to conform to”. Too often, church leaders do just that…and their followers perpetuate the system and keep each other accountable to it. It’s a human trait, not a denominational one!
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@ Sleepless in Seattle
“While Mark Driscoll does make a good point about the conference addicts and all of the fanboys (and girls), I wish he would follow through then and stop speaking at conferences/talk shows, stop putting himself up on a pedestal, and stop tweeting out every thought he has that often just stirs up the drama and/or incites mans’ empty praise of MD.”
Good point! Makes me think of the notorious interview MD gave in England in which he criticised the church there: ‘name for me the one young, good Bible teacher that is known across Great Britain. You don’t have one – that’s the problem’.
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Thank you dee, but I can’t hold a candle to Sergius. He is in a league of his own.
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JJ
Driscoll speaks with forked tongue.
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Dee:
YRR hipster dudes cruising the conferences…
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m41ctfLl9a1rvjm9wo1_400.jpg
/
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“Why is it so many of the experts on being a woman are male?
Classic. What’s Piper’s next lecture on? Being a good Korean?”
After a while, women begin to realize that these male experts on “womanhood” are not experts on what actual, real, living, breathing, human women (created in God’s image) should be. They are experts on what they want women to be. What they want is a plastic, shallow, less-than-fully-human, pared down version that vaguely resembles some woman somewhere that they like. This perfect woman can borrow components from their mothers, sisters, cousins, old girlfriends, unattainable women of their past, fashion models, pinup girls, story book or movie or Bible characters, or some sort of conglomeration of any number of these. They internally form this conglomeration into what they believe will serve them best or make them look good. You know… some sort of made up human being that will complement them, or rather, the fantasy version of themselves in their own heads.
It’s all about the way things work in the fantasy world they have concocted where they get to be the boss of another person who is always smiling because she wants to be bossed. I’ve seen Piper nearly in tears over this perfect and joyfully submitted woman who displays the suffering servant side of Christ. It is so beautiful to him and such an important part of his Biblical Manhood/Womanhood fantasy. Too bad it is so self-serving and man serving, bordering on idoloty.
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Anon
That was really funny!
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Excellent post, Mara!
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After a while, women begin to realize that these male experts on “womanhood” are not experts on what actual, real, living, breathing, human women (created in God’s image) should be. They are experts on what they want women to be. What they want is a plastic, shallow, less-than-fully-human, pared down version that vaguely resembles some woman somewhere that they like. This perfect woman can borrow components from their mothers, sisters, cousins, old girlfriends, unattainable women of their past, fashion models, pinup girls, story book or movie or Bible characters, or some sort of conglomeration of any number of these. They internally form this conglomeration into what they believe will serve them best or make them look good. You know… some sort of made up human being that will complement them, or rather, the fantasy version of themselves in their own heads. — Mara
Sounds a lot like Perfect Porn Star Syndrome. (Other names for which are Stepford Wife Syndrome and its gender-flip Edward Cullen Syndrome.)
You know, the Perfect Porn Star compared to which all RL women are rancid piles of crap? The Perfect Porn Star who is totally utterly submissive to you in every way?
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It’s all about the way things work in the fantasy world they have concocted where they get to be the boss of another person who is always smiling because she wants to be bossed. I’ve seen Piper nearly in tears over this perfect and joyfully submitted woman who displays the suffering servant side of Christ. — Mara
Smiling and in tears? I’d expect heavy breathing and a hand in the pants — that’s a Stepford Wife Sexual Fantasy right there. A Christianese variant of the Perfect Porn Star who stays locked in my private personal harem. “Yes, Master?”
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I giggled when I saw that T4G drew a smaller crowd than a typical University of Louisville WOMEN’S basketball game. Makes you wonder why renting a 22,000-seat basketball palace was necessary…
Sounds like somebody doing the planning was a bit too optimistic about the turnout.
Name-It-and-Claim-It, maybe?
Somebody Prophesied a big turnout?
Or “felt (TM)” God’s Mighty Working in it?
Or “Just have Enough FAITH and…”?
Whatever the reason, whoever did that part of the planning was seriously mistaken.