The pastor was beyond out of line. I went to an SBC affiliated church the majority of my life, and a few years ago my parents’ pastor pulled the same little stunt. He decided to get rid of the deacons so he could be a one man show. Why hasn’t the convention been contacted? I know that these churches are autonomous, but if you read any SBC By-Laws, no where does it say if your church is too small get rid of the deacons. That is absolutely absurd and this is nothing more than a little dictator coming into a church. I am sure the church will eventually disband like my parents’ church did.

What I find HILARIOUS is that he dialed 911 from the pulpit. If that is all true, why weren’t all the members getting rid of this guy? So many people just stand by and do nothing knowing that this is pure poison.

Deb, a couple of years ago my home church brought in a new pastor from CA. I am from TN (huge difference). Anyway, about one month ago this fellow preached a sermon on how after witnessing to some people, if they don’t receive the gospel, you should push them overboard just like you would someone who was hanging onto a boat and causing the boat to capsize. Because if you let them hang on, you would drown as well. At any rate, someone in the congregation actually stood up and began yelling at him. The pastor began yelling back and then began crying saying “How much longer Lord will you keep me here?” Then, he began praying and pounding on the pulpit shouting, “I will not compromise” over and over. What a nightmare! Honestly, I think people are losing their minds. By the way, the pastor mentioned above is no Calvinista.

Do you know what I notice about many of these characters? They always embellish. I mean some of the stuff that comes out of their mouths is so unbelievable! The two pastors I have personally witnessed that behave in this manner both told crazy stories from the pulpit that began to make people wonder how any of that could be true? I would love to have some of these characters have a psychological evaluation. The guy from this most current story you told probably would benefit from one.

Two quick thoughts on Church Discipline: I’ve heard that in early Puritan England, if a child couldn’t answer the catechism questions, his/her father would be subject to discipline: It was his job to teach his children. Harsh, or beneficial?

Also, I’ve heard that in some So. Korea churches, a small group that doesn’t double in size annually, from conversions, is subject to discipline. Talk about intense!

New post…Leaving Grudgeville

http://marshillrefuge.blogspot.com/2012/02/leaving-grudgeville.html

The mis-application of church discipline has nothing to do with Calvinists, conservative protestants, Southern Baptist or C.J. Mahaney.
It has everything to do with the sin nature of man; there’s not a religious organization that ever existed that didn’t pull power plays. Catholic, Mormon, Orthodox Jews, Ba’hai; you name it, they’ve all done the same thing.

To suggest the misapplication of church discipline is uniquely a conservative protestant issue simply isn’t true.

“There is nothing new under the sun.”

Jimmy: “there’s not a religious organization that ever existed that didn’t pull power plays…To suggest the misapplication of church discipline is uniquely a conservative protestant issue simply isn’t true.”

That’s right – they all “lord over” their subjects.
But then there is Jesus.
And he said to his disciples, “It shall not be so with you.”

A friend of mine, some years back, walked in on his favorite pastor on a Saturday afternoon in a compromising position on the church office sofa with a female congregant. My friend, who really liked the pastor, was quite shocked by the scenario. The pastor started, crying, admitted his sin and thanked my friend for helping him come to his sense. The pastor was repentant and thankful.

The next morning (Sunday) the pastor announced from the pulpit that my friend (pastor named him) was guilty of spreading vicious rumors and undermining the leadership and convinced the congregation to throw him out of the church that day. My friend had not said anything to anyone; not wanting to harm the pastor; found himself tossed out of the church immediately.
10 years later he could laugh at it but it was certainly traumatic at the time.

OF COURSE church discipline has been, and is at times, misapplied. But it’s still something churches need to practice if they are going to be faithful to Scripture.

To this point, churches are not burning members at the stake nor throwing them in public stocks.

It’s much improved.

And Miguel, do you really think people should be punished because their kids aren’t letter-perfect in reciting something?! Sounds like SGM…

Sounds like a Talibani Madrassa and Koran Memorization/Recitation to me.

Danny,

I do not see the list of sins in 1 Corinthians 5:11 as exhaustive. Of course there are sins that Paul did not list. Physical/emotional abuse of one’s spouse and child abuse certainly come to mind.

If one is truly in Christ, I believe the Holy Spirit gives us discernment to recognize egregious sin that must be dealt with through church discipline.

I hope that answers your question.

Numo, for the record, I don’t endorse that Puritan practice. But here’s the thing; the results and objectives of these discipleship methods are often worthwhile, but the methods themselves are quite heinous. I think it would be a great thing if every kid in church were well catechized in Biblical doctrine and every small group was multiplying rapidly due to conversion. But to discipline when that doesn’t happen seems quite coercive. What is needed, I think, is methods that work towards noble objectives IN a manner befitting the desired outcome. Do we want people to love Jesus and share him with others? Well, by its very nature, this cannot be forced.

Generally, I’m sort of a fan of the idea of “religious education” taking place in the home, or parents at least taking an active role and interest in the spiritual development of their children instead of pawning it off on the youth group or something. But I think using the puritan method today would create more obstacles to faith than it would build bridges.

This story is plain shocking. I’ve never seen discipline used for such power plays, my experience has been more towards the destructive lack of any discipline at all. But I don’t doubt this is happening.

Another example: There was a Catholic bishop who denied communion to a politician for supporting pro-choice legislation. Is this going too far, or was the bishop just “towing the party line?”

The thing is that discipline is suposed to be used for sin, but not everybody agrees on what “sin” is. For power mongers, sin is getting in their way. For the Baptist church I grew up in, sin was imbibing alcohol, for which you could be disciplined. For some Episcopalians, there is very little in the sexual realm still considered sin 😛

Even the 10 commandments seem a little too vague of a standard. We can’t discipline a person for internal sins like idolatry or coveting. I suppose the only valid options are the blatant external sins; adultery, theft, murder, but not coming to worship (think, years…) or even lying can become sticky issues real quick. Who’s to say what does or does not warrant corrective discipline? And who wants the job of deciding that?

Miguel – A lot of us here have seen egregious ills (often committed against us!) perpetrated in the name of “church discipline.”

I was shunned.

I’m still recovering from that, and all of the other things that took place, because the private meetings with pastoral staff that I attended were really horrible. (In terms of the accusations – and more – that were leveled against me, and the refusal to listen to me on *anything* at all. They tried forcing me to see it their way – to see myself their way – and it worked, to a great extent.)

I understand that you are trying to figure this out, but all I can say is that I think it is NOT supposed to be standard practice and that the church has, time and time again, used “discipline” to hurt, shame and abuse people, not help them.

Also… what happened to me largely happened in private. The “public” (other church members) were told a very different story about what was going on with me, which in itself was extremely hurtful. (It kept the “leaders” above reproach while making me look foolish at best.)

It was a devastating experience and I am amazed that I am still Christian.

Numo, you were “shunned?” Yikes! Sometimes I wonder how that practice has even survived at all.

My bible 101 class in college made explicitly clear that the only objective of church discipline was restoration. I don’t see how shunning works toward that at all. I don’t understand how churches lead by those type of people have anybody attending them at all.

Nope. Shunning is becoming more widespread, if anything.

In my case, it started about (9 & 1/2 years ago. The “pastor” in question was very influenced by Piper, I think, though not just by him. (I think the guy has some serious psychological problems, also that on some level he perceived me as a threat because I asked questions like the following: Why isn’t the Nicene Creed part of our statement of faith? Since he was ordained C of E, I thought it was a softball question at best, but he was taken *very* off guard by it and he got defensive about it. After than, he wouldn’t talk to me after services were over…)

Miguel – am with Deb on your comment, too. You nailed it!

Jimmy – I really don’t believe you get it – “it” being both this blog and the many commenters.

We’re not blind, but maybe we’re focused a bit differently than you – ?

all the best to you –
n.

Eagle,
I don’t think church discipline must always equal kicking someone out of the church. It seems recently that’s been the trend, but I don’t think it has to be that way. I think there is a way to disciple that doesn’t end in shunning.

As to the story of the pastor and music minister you shared. If I fall into such an egregious sin as adultery, though I don’t expect the church to ‘throw me out’ I would expect them to ask me to step down for a season. I’m not above accountability or being held to the standard of pastor.

IMO- official church discipline (being asked not to attend official church gatherings) should only be used as a last resort after all private appeals and personal interaction with the offending brother or sister fails to result in repentance.

BTW – noncompliance to secondary issues is not a sin issue.

Shortly after the day I waled out, I started getting calls (which I never answered, let them go to voicemail) from the “pastor” about how they wanted to publicly “send me out.” They didn’t add “joyfully” to that (as in Sophia’s case at MH), but they might as well have.

I refused to play that game, and they never heard back from me. (The calls were also contingent on a private phone convo that I had with an “elder” in which I said that they were shunning me – a term they adamantly refused to use or accept.)

Dee, it’s a bit puzzling to me that you haven’t acknowledged there have always been tares among the wheat; humankind has not suddenly developed a new virulent strain ( you’d call them Calvinistas) but is going on in a totally expected manner. Let us not carry on as if all conservative evangelical leaders are tares to your wheat; they certainly are not. Most of them deeply desire to follow the Bible. Yet the constant bashing of Dever, Mahaney, Piper, Mohler and others suggest an agenda that is simply more then comforting those who have suffered losses. WE ALL have suffered losses haven’t we?

You may think your calling is that of a “tare weeder” but that would appear to be contrary to Scripture wouldn’t it?

TWW’s style is Bash-and-then-discuss.

That seems less then optimum to me.

Only once have I witnessed someone being walked out of church. No police were needed, and it was handled with as much wisdom and grace by the leaders as one could hope for in the situation. Afterward the pastor explained to the whole church that the man wouldn’t be welcome back to without meeting with the elders first. To that request, his response had been, “Where’s the grace?”
Did I forget to tell you that this man was the most legalistic Christian I’d ever met? And his offense: he stood up in the middle of the service and shouted a number of accusatory things, including, “God’s going to get you!”
He was clearly hurting the whole congregation, not disagreeing about the need for deacons.

Jimmy,

Perhaps you have blundered upon something valid here without even knowing it; the virulent strain of toxic spirituality.

Now, I’ve been calling Driscoll Dris-coli because he’s full of crap now you have inspired me Mahaney, lets see…starts with M…

MRSA is an antibiotic-resistant form of Staphylococcus aureus.

Mahaney-Regular-Sinsniffing-Apostle.

Dever, Piper, and Mohler are like part of the immune system that is supposed to go after potentially harmful invaders and members of the body that are not behaving (cancer, for example) and they have ignored MRSA (Mahaney) and are content to spread legalism and anti-woman and anti-science propaganda so they are spiritual autoimmune diseases.

So Hypercalvinism Calvinitis is a sudden mutation that has overwhelmed a healthy part of the Body and Deb and Dee and a few of the reguaers here….and me are finally waking up, smelling last night’s bean dip and doing something about it…well…at least speaking up.

Wow numo!! My heart hurts and is also pissed-off at how you were treated. Let me say it loud and clear for all to hear. There is no such thing as justification by faith alone. Faith without action is as empty as a CERN vacuum. There is NOTHING that dismays and pisses God off more than meanness and cruelty to others, both human and beast.

Jimmy:

You said:”BTW, I actually suspect Deb and Dee are pretty fun people when they’re not “tare weeding.”

You are also probably a fun person when you are not ignoring or dismissing the painful realities of others.

Zech’s story reminded me of one I heard from a Baptist minister in a rural Colorado district. After he had been serving a congregation for some time, gossip started to be spread all around the small town, not about him, but about his kids. It was, of course, all untrue. So he listened to the gossip and wrote it all down. In the sunday service, he got up and said, “Ok, here’s a list of everything that’s being said about my family. Here’s some proof that it isn’t true. I demand these rumors stop TODAY, or next week, I will reveal the name of those spreading these harmful lies about my family.” Immediately, 8 families stood up and walked out of the church. 10 years later, 6 of them had returned and apologized. The moral according to him was, “Sin doesn’t live when exposed to the light.” Not sure if this even qualifies as discipline, but it was a certainly a bold move!

The Calvinista’s would be much more credible minus Mahaney and Driscoll but for some reason they can’t let them go. I am really amazed that Dever and Piper who want to return to their Puritan roots actually throw a bone at Driscoll. I am sure that the Puritans would think MD had a demon and might even burn him. Those folks didn’t play around so to speak.

The sad observer is not so sad today, because she has been quoted by a highly respected blog! 🙂 I’m truly honored.

I thought, since my quote apparently sparked a debate about “church discipline abuse” being more prevalent in Calvinist circles, that I ought to own what I said a bit and explain my reason for saying it originally.

I was not trying to imply that Calvinist circles are the only ones to mis-handle church discipline, or that there is something inherently wrong with Calvinism that causes them to do so. My comment was speaking to the fact that I keep hearing these kinds of stories coming out of Calvinist circles, and I’m wondering why right now at this point in history that seems to be the group that it’s coming from.

I can’t claim to know, of course, exactly what the spiritual abuse dynamics are in every Christian group across the country, so I certainly am no expert on who is doing it “more” than others. I’m just making an observation based on the fact that I hear about it in relation to Calvinist churches much more these days.

Thanks!

Eagle – I forgot to answer your question about phone calls. Can’t remember exactly (since they were few and far between), but it was in the neighborhood of 4-5 months.

As I said, I let them go to voice mail, and it’s a good thing I did. In one case, the “pastor” was extremely angry and I was not about to talk to him when he was ranting. (Or at any other time, for that matter.) His angry call came within hours of my having spoken to the “elder” I mentioned above, when I used the word “shunning.” And I knew he would call, because it would be reported to him ASAP.

I could have set my watch by it, in fact.

Numo –

Thanks for sharing some of your experience. I know it’s somethng you don’t want to keep revisiting, which is very understandable. I’m sorry you were treated in such a manner and that anyone is treated in such unloving ways. It almost seems as if we are getting to a point where there is more people in certain areas warning of why NOT to partake at certain churches rather than sharing reasons to attend a certain church. At this point the institutionalized church has, in many ways, become a stumbling stone.

Jesus dealt with sin all the time in interesting and creative ways, didn’t he?

Bridget2 – thanks so much. It’s not something I sit around and think about, although sometimes things surface.

Life has continued to go on, and I’m going along with it! : )

Perhaps the move along line should have read “Nothing LEFT to see here”.

So I sent in ‘the letter’ to a well known calvinista church–will keep the identity vague for now– and haven’t heard a peep from them. I did this months after speaking with an elder about grappling with churchianity’s pet peeves–oh, just the small stuff: hell, heaven, homosexuals, the possibility inclusivism.

I was upfront with my thinking, no B.S.ing on my part. They must think I worship satan by now.

So what do you all say ?

Looking forward to Numo’s story.

My husband and I were asked to leave a church where we had been members for 34 years. My husband was a Deacon and a member of the choir and on the building committee. I help where I can as I have an incurable disease and never know when I will be able to walk. I did mostly telephone work and checked people in at our monthly Senior Luncheon, sold tickets, etc.

We were called into the preacher’s office and he asked us to leave HIS church as three people (women) had said that I was sending out nasty e-mail to them. Not true. I receive a Nasty e-mail from one of the women as I was helping her with the Angel Tree. She is a very pushy person and has only been a Baptist for a few years. (Previously Catholic& remarried after a divorce). She got with two other women that didn’t like us for some unknown reason and made up a bunch off untrue statements about us.

They went to the Pastor and told him all this stuff. We had heard nothing about all of this going on behind our backs. The Pastor called us to come to his office and didn’t give us a chance to say anything. Just told us to leave HIS church. What can we do about all of this?