TWW Angry? You Betcha!

“A man is about as big as the things that make him angry.” Winston Churchill


Courtesy of NASA

Well, well, well, we just found out that someone believes that your glam blog queens seem “angry". We have a hunch that this “observation” was made by someone whose sacred cow (human or theology) was the subject of one of our illuminating posts. Immediately, I thought, “Did they include the word, “bitter?” You see, this is a common tactic for people who wish to blow off another point of view.

Somehow, if said accuser who is uncomfortable, can “prove” that his tormentor is angry — especially angry plus bitter — then, ipso facto, this makes them the problem, not the sacred cow. You should see how many times people email us, accusing us of being bitter. It is becoming laughable! We believe this tactic must be taught in today’s seminaries and in-club conferences.

Unfortunately, many people who have tried to communicate their concerns to some of today’s hyper-authoritarian pastors have found themselves on the receiving end of the left boot of fellowship. They are told by their “divinely” appointed rulers that they are angry, bitter and some are even deemed unregenerate. Some “pastors”, as reported at the SGM Survivors site, tell those who have the temerity to ask questions that they are so blinded by their sin that they are unable to perceive things adequately. Talk about a racket! Said pastor is somehow exempt from this sin blindness.

So, is it a bad thing to be angry? Well, it would seem that none other than the Savior Himself expressed anger. Jesus called the Pharisees “snakes.” He also turned over the moneychangers tables in the temple, obviously upset that moneychangers were ripping off the faithful under the guise of faith (Ed Young Jr – are you listening?).

I wonder if TWW’s critic would have condescended to calling Jesus irritable or bitter? Darn that Jesus — He made everything so complicated…

The longer I thought about this comment, the angrier I became. You see, this person violated TWW’s prime directive. A few years back, we, sadly, had occasion to talk at length with some of the leaders of the internationally regarded SNAP (Survivor’s Network for those Abused by Priests). We discussed some teens that had been horribly molested by a seminary student. Barbara Dorris, one of the directors, told me something that I will never ever forget. She said, “No matter what happens, never forget that you are doing this for the boys. Always think of them.”

Frankly, this is the best piece of advice I have ever received. It has morphed into much, much more. We never ever forget the little guy who has been hurt by authority-drunk pastors. These folks have been given the left boot of fellowship and treated like they are human detritus-acceptable losses on the way to mega-church stardom.

These folks have made their way to this blog, sharing their heart-wrenching stories. There are nights that I find it hard to fall asleep as I think of them. I pray an awful lot.

Yet, our critics seem far more concerned about the darlings of the mega-pulpit du jour, ranting if we happen to question their teachings or ministry. You see, such pastors, let’s take Mark Driscoll as an example, have lots of money, lots of friends and supporters, and protection from their elders and security guards. They often flit around on private jets, donated by admiring, rich members. They are unapproachable. So the little guy, who is hurt by Driscoll’s bizarre rantings, is blown off as a nobody. Driscoll, hiding behind the skirts of his boys, then makes fun of these no accounts, saying they deserve a punch in the nose.

TWW, on the other hand, cares about these hurt nobodies because we are nobodies as well. Both of us had a brush with painful encounters at a church. We know what it feels like to be belittled by pastors. We know what it feels like to have lies spread about us by church leaders. (Oh, they were lies alright. One elder actually had the guts to confess it).

But God was merely preparing us for something bigger, and He wanted us to feel it first. Both of us are stubborn (Deb prefers the term "tenacious"), and we decided to do something about it. We started a blog to expose both pastors and theologies that we believe are hurting many in the church. We especially focus on those who have little to no voice in today’s idol-driven churches and groups.

And darn it all, this little blog continues to find its voice slowly spreading. It is the people who have found their way here that have blessed our lives with their stories and kindness in spite of their pain. Guess what? We would rather spend time talking to these folks then any of the “important boys” in the post-evangelical limelight. This is a diverse community of conservative evangelicals, liberals, moderates, agnostics, atheists, and undetermineds, who have demonstrated more love, compassion, and openness than many in today’s churches. These folks are the ones who are keeping it real, and they are the ones whom we care about.

So, in their honor, we have developed the prime directive.

The TWW Prime Directive

Any valid criticism of a post should begin with an expression of concern for, or at least an acknowledgement of, those folks who have been hurt by a particular ministry, pastor, or theology. If such a statement is not forthcoming, we believe that the critic has a heart that is "two sizes too small." (I am slowly recuperating from Christmas). And that gets us ticked off.

Here is an example. TWW had the opportunity to dialog with a well-known mega pastor. In our correspondence early last year, we expressed concern on two fronts. This pastor had expressed that he was friendly with C.J. Mahaney, and we knew that he recommends a book by Gary Ezzo. So, the two of us decided to go to bat for the hundreds (if not more) of adults and children who have reported that they were hurt by the ministry of these individuals. We pleaded with him to talk with Mahaney and to consider removing the Ezzo book from his list of recommendations. Please note that our concern was for the “little guy.”

We did receive a response, but it was a major yawner. We were accused of “character assassination.” We applied our prime directive to this response. Not ONCE did he express concern for those who have been hurt. Those people were the basis for our expressed concern. His concern was focused on two people only: his friend, Mahaney, and Gary Ezzo. What more was there for us to discuss? We knew were this pastor stood.

About five months after this correspondence, C.J. Mahaney suddenly stepped down due to embarrassing revelations.  And, as our astute readers know, Gary Ezzo was thrown out of his church, and his restrictive infant feeding methods have been seriously questioned by many medical professionals. In light of recent developments regarding Mahaney, has said pastor ever questioned his abrasive response to us?  Not likely because he has since excoriated us from the pulpit.

This pastor violated our prime directive; therefore, we must ask the question — where is his compassion for those who have been wounded by these ministries? I wonder if he has ever once prayed for them.

We have one thing to say to the person who said we appear angry. You betcha we are angry.

Here is a partial list of things that make us angry.

  • The women whose pastor told her to return to her abusive husband
  • The many children abused by pedophiles in the SBC and other churches
  • The pastors who covered up pedophilia on the part of other pastors and church workers
  • Paige Patterson and others who refused to listen to the many young women who said Darrell Gilyard (the next Billy Graham) molested them (Oh, Gilyard got out of jail yesterday)
  • The churches that turned their backs on the victims of pedophilia
  • The churches that tell mentally ill members not to seek outside counseling
  • Tim Challies who will not let women read Scripture in the pulpit
  • Mark Driscoll whose bizarre, and sometimes disgusting, utterances are offensive to many
  • Acts 29 which has some strange beliefs about masculine love
  • The churches that abuse their members by telling them that they are idiots, depraved, or unregenerate
  • The SBC IMB which recalled missionary women who were “in charge” of men
  • Sheri Klouda
  • Pastors who are told to apologize to hurting teens and do not do so — this one is personal…
  • Ed Young Jr.’s penchant for money
  • The hundreds of disturbing stories of pain found on the SGM Survivors and Refuge sites
  • Al Mohler and his ilk defending C.J. Mahaney and never once commenting on those in pain
  • Ken Ham and his heresy brigade
  • Quivering Daughters
  • Calvinistas who believe that only they are serious about the Bible
  • Andy Davis calling decent people “unregenerate” and wicked, all over the issue of female deacons
  • Those seminarians (who are now pastors — may God have mercy) who turned their backs on Jill Briscoe and Anne Graham Lotz when they were asked to speak in chapel
  • Those legalistic churches which have caused some to lose faith in the faith

This list is truncated because I must get dinner. We encourage our readers to add to the list.  What makes you angry? We look forward to the dialog.

We leave this post with a question for our critic. Sure we are angry, but here's the pressing question:  why the heck aren’t YOU?


Lydia's Corner:   Job 37:1-39:30   2 Corinthians 4:13-5:10   Psalm 44:9-26   Proverbs 22:13



TWW Angry? You Betcha! — 59 Comments

  1. I would add those of us new Christians (adults, not homeschooled kids) who were taught false doctrine by Bill Gothard and were too afraid of being “unsubmissive to authority” to walk out of the seminar door. I deeply regret leading some of my best friends down that path with me.

  2. Pingback: Quote for the day | Civil Commotion

  3. Kathy
    We have all made similar mistakes. However, they were made out of the best of intentions. We wanted to do the right things in following God. Be grateful that you have come to your senses. So many live their lives vaguely aware that something is wrong and do nothing about it.

  4. I have too many things but I’ll start with:

    I’m angry that patriarchy/male leadership, marriage, family, courtship and purity have been made such idols from the pulpit in such a way that both many single and married Christians may never fully recover from the damage this idolatry has caused.

  5. Thank you for your website. I appreciate you ladies for sounding the alarm. I have been reading the blog for a few months now, but don’t remember how I found it. Anyway, it has been a blessing to me.

    I also get angry when I see the blogs of women and girls who because of the abuses of a patriarchal system that were brought up in declare themselves atheist or agnostic now. Because of abuse, they are now afraid of the One who can really help them.

    I am sad that some women in the USA are not being educated to the best of their abilities and are instead encouraged to be stay-at-home daughters.
    It makes me sad for women, but angry at the men who perpetuate those systems: Doesn’t matter if they are FLDS, “Christian Patriarchy” proponents, or ultra-Orthodox Jews chasing an 8 year-old girl for being “immodest”. They all have roots in the same false assumptions about women.

    I am so glad that the Jesus of the Bible is not this way.

  6. I am angry about people who talk about the “plain truth” of the Bible, when they are referring to a corrupt English translation produced by a corrupt process to satisfy a king’s desire to defend his authoritarian regime and establish patriarchy and the divine right of kings.

  7. I am angry that I was taught by these groups that my personal transformation was the gospel when that is an implication of the gospel. It is distressing that his death and resurrection for me; this one sided rescue for me was turned into a list of how to get my act together in order to really know for sure that I am elect. Who knows I could think I am elect and actually not be. But hey that is all for God’s glory. I remember one of those guys saying if they weren’t elect and went to hell they would praise God for that. I was like ummm actually you would acknowledge him as lord of the universe because we all will one day but, you won’t be thanking him for his wrath. Are you kidding me???

    I remember my C.O. bible study leader telling us girls we better get scripturally acquiped and study our bibles now because when we have children we won’t have time to be in the word like we are now.

    It is mind blowing that these groups can’t freely offer Jesus crucified for the forgiveness of sins. Oh wait, they are calvinistas they can’t freely give it away because it isn’t for everyone.

    I am angry that once one becomes a Christian this free gift is snatched away and replaced with the moralism ladder. I am angry that many people leave the faith thinking they can’t deal with Jesus when really they are leaving because of authoritarian control. I pray that these people can find comfort in the gospel which means GOOD NEWS. I am angry that this good news has been turned into ok news provided that you were elect and you don’t fall away because if you do then it was never good news for you anyway.

    Ok, that is all for now. Thanks for the open forum Dee.

  8. Dee,

    Great post! I prefer to be described as TENACIOUS, although I’m sure I’ve been called much worse than “stubborn”.

  9. To be called “angry” by those who might choose to abuse others within the church is not a bad thing. Seems that if they can’t discuss their position intelligently, they resort to name-calling. It appears that they have difficulty remaining silent when faced with being accountable to the Truth. So being called “angry” by them is sort of a compliment to TWW. The blog queens may be getting under their skin.

  10. Arce on Thu, Dec 29 2011 at 11:25 pm
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    I am angry about people who talk about the “plain truth” of the Bible, when they are referring to a corrupt English translation produced by a corrupt process to satisfy a king’s desire to defend his authoritarian regime and establish patriarchy and the divine right of kings.

  11. You know Dee and Deb, it’s as if the SBC has no heart. They have no heart for the hurting, the abused, it’s as if they do not even exist. And it has broken my heart for a very long time.

  12. Yes, there are “tares” in all the churches, all the denominations, all the congregations, all leadership and all the followership.

    Jeremiah has also made it plain for centuries – the heart of man is desperately wicked; who can know it.

    Sadly, it’s not just the Driscolls or Mahenys; it is also the Weak, the “victims”, the people in the pews who are, in their heart of hearts, desperately wicked.
    Blog Queens and commenters – all in our heart of hearts are desperately wicked.
    Isn’t that our world?

  13. Seneca –

    I prefer Dee and Deb’s “wicked” response on behalf of victims to your “wicked” sigh that that’s just the way our world is.

    You know the quote – “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.”

  14. Deb
    We have been called worse. Take a look at our list under The Basics called “What the world is saying about TWW.” My personal favorite is “warthog.”

  15. Debbie
    YOU have a heart to reach out to those suffering. You also chase after truth as you did so well in the Caner situation. Hmmm-truth with heart-not a bad way to be viewed. Well done, girl!

  16. Seneca

    I disagree with you on the “wicked” part. Yes, we all have a penchant for sin. But, with the indwelling of the Spirit we are a people in process. Desperately wicked people do not become missionaries, serve the poor, encourage the weak,and sacrifice time, money and love for others. “Desperately wicked” is an excuse used by Calvinistas to shut up those who would point out sin in the pulpit and pain in the pews. If we were all so desperately wicked we could not even see beyond ourselves, yet we do.

    Seneca, never forget that we are created in the image of God-all of us, even the unsaved. That image is reflected in various ways in the lives of both the saved and unsaved. There is compassion in secular groups like “Doctors Without Borders.” There is the profound sacrifice of an Henri Nouwen, a priest, who lived his life amongst the handicapped. There is the sacrifice of those Christians, some on this blog, who care for the poor and disenfranchised. Yes, we are sinners but we are also capable of reflecting the life of Christ in our lives.

    And we are also capable of waking up and smelling the coffee when things are wrong in the church and doing something about it. I see the image of Christ in brothers and sisters unlike some of these church leaders who view those in the body as a bunch of unregenerate, idiot sheep to be beaten with words and rules.

  17. Arce
    I tire of those who speak about “plain truth” when all we do is fight over secondary issues. If it were so gosh darn plain, we wouldn’t fight over differing interpretations of it, spawning an untold number of denominations and independent churches.And, if it were vital to our well-being to understand it, then why wasn’t it written plainly? We Christians agree with the Resurrection because it is central to the faith. That much was made plain. Why not gender roles, etc.? Why so much confusion (in spite of all those claiming there is one view-bunkum.)?

    Liked the article on the new evangelicals, btw. i plan to do a post on it. Thanks.

  18. The late OD Criswell and all the others who believe and practice that “the pastor is the ruler of the church” and increasing numbers of other evangelical megachurch pastors who have forgotten the real ruler, Jesus Christ.

  19. Robin
    You said something profound about an issue that is disturbing me. “I was taught by these groups that my personal transformation was the gospel when that is an implication of the gospel.” The word, “gospel” is being transformed into a word that means “what you say and do.” It is being changed from a word that meant grace and freedom due to the sacrifice of Christ to a word that means “you must do x.”

    It is a subtle way to bring works into faith. And if you do not do as you are told, you are outside the gospel which means that you are not saved. I am trying to develop this concept in order to write a post. Believe it or not, I even found a Christian program called “gospel smoking cessation.”

  20. Dr Jon

    You are right. Name-calling is a way to obfuscate the truth. It is a half-baked attempt to shut the person, who is talking, down. Unfortunately, such a tactic does not work with me as a former church discovered. If they try to keep me quiet, I just shout more loudly. Frankly, it would make a heckuva lot more sense to dialog or to not say anything at all.

    One thing I forgot in my post is this. Never, ever insult people who I regard as friends. When I found out the connection of Andy Davis to the two people that we know, I became incensed. How dare he call and insinuate that they are part of the group he labels unregenerate and wicked! Davis is a just another whining,theological bully who can’t take push back.

  21. Dana

    Here’s the problem with some of the Calvinistas out there. They do not believe there are any good people. Although, in some perverse way, they project themselves as the worst of sinners thereby proving to all that they are better than the rest of us. Seneca seems to focus regularly on the “sins” of the “victims” as he calls them. Victim in his world is an epithet-worthy of derision. Funny thing, however, Jesus seemed to spend most of His time with the victims of the cruelty of this world. He seemed to profoundly dislike the leaders. Wonder why?

  22. New reader here.

    I survived a MACE (Master of Arts in Christian Ed) at THE Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (emphasis theirs) in the late 90s. I got a first-rate CE education and am convinced that going there was the right thing to do, but it was difficult. The head-hunting mentality was still in full swing, even though most of the “moderates” had gone, and no one seemed to know how to tame it. Dr. Mohler was very young for a seminary president, and to this day I wonder how much of the bluster was genuine conviction and how much of it was a perceived need on his part to prove himself worthy of the office to all the old boys. Insecurity can make people do some unpleasant things. Unfortunately, though, he has now established a specific persona for himself, and it’s hard to change that. I wonder if he’s happy with it?

    Although I believe that getting a degree from SBTS was worth it in the end, I am still angry about many things surrounding my experience there.

    –If all the promises of God are “yes and amen” in Christ Jesus, the answer I got to what I thought were reasonable requests for help always seemed to be “no.” No, we can’t give your parents a key to your dorm room to help you move while you are at your second-shift job, even if you sign a form and they show ID. No, we can’t make change for a dollar so you can do your laundry. Our supervisors MIGHT not approve of that. No, I can’t drive you two miles down the road so that you can pick up your car from the shop. No, we can’t host your out-of-town fiance at our apartment for the weekend. Get married already. And so forth. To this day, whenever I encounter a person who put adherence to rules over people, my first instinct is to ask them if they are Southern Baptist, and I am angry about that, too.

    –All of us CE students had to take a capstone course called “Bible Teaching,” no matter if you were a pastor in training or a children’s worker. The class was co-ed (I bet it’s not now). There were 4 women in my section, out of 15-20 total students. The instructors were the Dean of the CE school and his wife. Each student had to teach two lessons to the rest of the class, and whenever one of the female students took her turn, 4 or 5 of the male students would get up, walk out of the room, and chat in the hallway until she finished. I can respect their conviction, but this was a lab setting, not a true classroom setting.

    –I was the only female in my required first semester “formation for Christian Ministry” course. One day the topic of discussion was “what to do when you get up to preach and discover that your fly is unzipped.” A few horrifying minutes into the discussion, I got a muted “sorry, Amy” from another classmate.

    –My roommate was asked by a male classmate in all seriousness if she would fly to Brazil and marry a new pastor, sight unseen. She wasn’t the recruiter’s only target, either.

    –I stopped going to chapel services about two weeks into my first semester, after realizing that it was a “let’s pat each other on the back because we’re Southern Baptists” session and not a worship service. When you find yourself focusing more on the number of times the speakers refer to “this denomination” or “this institution” than you do on the Scripture text, there’s a problem.

    –I only had to take one semester of church history, so, finding the prospect of continual Catholic-bashing in Church History I unpleasant, I took Church History II during a summer session. Unfortunately, this professor managed to criticize every other Protestant denomination he could think of, although the best he could do with mine was “they believe the same things we do [not entirely true], so they should just join the SBC.” I wanted history, not polemics.

    Probably the thing that has left the most unpleasant taste in my mouth is the way the seminary powers that were altered the definition of “moderate” to suit their own agenda. At that point, if I’m not mistaken, the “moderates” at that time were those who were in favor of ordaining women and/or those who refused to sign the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy. There weren’t many left at SBTS, so I was confused as to why the faculty and leadership kept castigating them as if there were. After 2 of my 2 1/2 years at the school had passed, I finally figured out that “moderate” was now being used as code for “disagrees with the conservative powers over x,” where x is any minor issue. They believed they could make such a definition because, as the hermeneutics faculty kept repeating, there is only one correct interpretation of any Scripture text. Since they alone had that correct interpretation, everyone else MUST not believe that Scripture is inerrant, and therefore must be a moderate.

    I have been impressed with what I’ve read on this blog so far. I wasn’t looking to fuel my own anger, I was looking for reasoned analysis of some trends that I find disturbing, and that’s what I see here–it’s the sort of dialogue that might occur in a student or faculty lounge at an institution that values academic freedom. Thanks for doing what you do.

  23. Dee,

    Thank you for your post. I have always thought Jesus’ treatment of and stories about victims versus his treatment of and warnings toward Israel’s spiritual leaders very telling.

    On the one hand, in the story of the Good Samaritan, Jesus doesn’t seem to think it important to have the victim confess his sin or take the log out of his eye. Jesus seems to hold up a focus on binding up wounds and serving the victim as near to God’s heart.

    On the other hand, when Jesus is dealing with abusive spiritual leaders, he is almost rough in his physical and verbal treatment. Whitewashed tombs full of dead men’s bones isn’t exactly a gentle admonition. Taking a whip and running greedy people out of the Temple is pretty physical. I mean, he seems, well, angry.

    Now, none of us is Jesus so we’ll probably never get the righteous anger thing just right(cf. Ephesians 4:26). Nevertheless, victims deserve more latitude and a focus on healing their wounds. Leaders, who should know better, deserve sharper correction. Our Lord sets a helpful example.


  24. Amy

    Welcome to our blog and thank you sfor the insight sthat you have provided about the goings on at SBTS. We often ask the question “What ARE they teaching in seminaries these days?”

    Here is a statement that jumped out at me from your well-written comment. “Each student had to teach two lessons to the rest of the class, and whenever one of the female students took her turn, 4 or 5 of the male students would get up, walk out of the room, and chat in the hallway until she finished. I can respect their conviction, but this was a lab setting, not a true classroom setting.”

    I do not respect their conviction since it is at the expense of a fellow Christian. These boys have traded the law of love for a theological construct that is harmful to the body of Christ. These are the boys who will turn into the Andy Davis’s of this world, wagging boney fingers at all who disagree with them on secondary issues and calling them apostates. I bet they are doing so now in their own churches.

    These boys make such a big deal out of a woman teaching a man. Let me ask a question. What in the world could a female have taught them that would cause them be unable to listen to them? These guys learn from women all of the time. Unless they literally plug their ears, they are already “guilty” of learning from women. What possible harm could occur if they learned that Martin Luther married a former nun from a woman? Would God really condemn such a thing? You see, all truth is God’s truth. So, everyday, whether in conversation or watching then news, these men are being taught by women. How do they differentiate between the various types of learning.

    Here is a prediction. These men will rule their homes as petty tyrants and their churches as admirals in rowboats. Their current actions give us insight into their hearts and these hearts will serve only their theology nitpicking, not their God.

    These boys are perverting the Gospel in their relentless pursuit of making secondary issues primary. Oh, I call them boys because that is how they act.

  25. Matt
    None of us are Jesus but we are called to model Him in our lives, albeit as imperfect representations. If we were not meant to become angry, then why were we created with such feelings? None of us loves perfectly as well. Does that mean we should stifle the feeling since we can’t do it right? Anger over injustice brought opposition to Hitler, slavery, and genocide. Out of anger can come great good. That is why we live in Christian community-we can help one another to modify our responses.

    I am still pondering a comment that you made yesterday. My husband and I talked about it last night and he agrees that that the answer is difficult. You said that your view as the head of your household means that you should sacrifice first and make the spiritual condition of your family your primary responsibility. It was a great and humble response.

    But, it leaves me confused. Since complementarians believe in separate yet equally valued gender roles, I find that your definition could also apply to a woman in a marriage. She, too, should be the first to sacrifice and to make the spiritual life of her family of primary importance. What I am trying to figure out is this. What is the specific, male based gender role that you have that she does not have?

  26. Dee,

    Thank you for your comment. My earlier comment was not designed to say, “It’s wrong to be angry.” I agree with you and my earlier comment was designed to say and show that Jesus got angry – sometimes it’s the only right thing to be! I was simply echoing another comment you made yesterday – most days my motives are mixed. That’s what I mean about not getting the anger thing right all the time.

    I don’t mean to say you’re wrong to be angry.

    Also, I posted in response to Bridget regarding the complementarian discussion we had yesterday. I included some detail as to what I mean regarding my understanding of the application of the headship principle.

    Thank you again for defending the cause of the hurt and for seeking to build common ground in Christ.


  27. One thing that I believe has not been thoroughly emphasized on your blog is how so many of these preachers–whether they’re Young, Reformed and Restless or thoroughgoing Arminian–live in a bubble. The bubble is that they have little, if any contact, with the real world, and in particular, with the roles that women play in the real world. Basically, these pastors live in a world where men are ALWAYS on top and ALWAYS the authority. If there are women in their lives, they are either wives, daughters, heads of church auxiliaries or church secretaries.

    The problem is, in the real world out where I live, that’s simply not the case. I’m female, my manager is female. Her manager is male. His manager, the executive vice president of our division, is female. She is the smartest person I’ve ever met, one of the most driven people–and she would not put up with crap from a Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney, Ed Young Jr. or any of the rest of the Preacher Rat Pack.

    In fact, I can tell you that none of these pastors would fit well in our corporation (a Fortune 500 company) at all. That’s because they have this idea that women are not their equals–which would simply get them canned the first time they tried to pull rank using their Y chromosomes.

    I can imagine that some readers are likely thinking that the way my employer (and thousands of others) is set up is wrong, that it’s the “world,” and the “world” is not supposed to be like the “church.” So it’s ok for the “church” to treat women like lower-class citizens, give us no voice, allow us no say and basically treat us like dirt.

    This pains me to write, but it’s disgusting to me that I am treated better and my opinion is respected more at my secular employer than it ever was when I went to church. That’s because my fellow employees don’t see me first and foremost as a woman (consequently, of lesser importance due to some long-taught ideas about how since Eve was the first to sin, she was especially culpable and all women after her), but as a part of a team, with particular insights I’ve gained over the years of doing my job.

    I’ve written quite too much here, but I really do think a huge chunk of the problem with these pastor dudes is that they don’t have to interact with women as their equals–and their managers!–on a daily basis. And, as long as there are doctrines out there that treat women as second-class, this is not going to change.

    Personally, I’m thinking the only way to change this is for these pastors to become bivocational and discover what it’s really like for the people sitting in the pews. Until then, their attitudes towards women and equality are going to continue to stink to high heaven.

  28. “Dr. Mohler was very young for a seminary president, and to this day I wonder how much of the bluster was genuine conviction and how much of it was a perceived need on his part to prove himself worthy of the office to all the old boys. Insecurity can make people do some unpleasant things. Unfortunately, though, he has now established a specific persona for himself, and it’s hard to change that. I wonder if he’s happy with it”

    And at age 33 he relished his part in getting rid of people 20 years older than him that were deemed “moderates”. And you are right. it became a code word for those who disagree with us on anything.

    In a way, I feel sorry for guys like Mohler. They are getting their reward now. They are so far gone in arrogance from being idol worshipped by so many, their souls are in peril. And they have used God’s name to ruin people. They also put heavy burdens on others they do not put on themselves.

  29. “I included some detail as to what I mean regarding my understanding of the application of the headship principle”

    Matt, the problem lies in not understanding the word “kephale”. It is not a “principle”. And there is no “headship”. That is like saying armship.

    There is only a principle of mutual submission for ALL believers which begins that passage in Eph 5:21. Dee is right to ask you how that plays out and where the wife fits in and her responsibility for the family. AFter all, you might become incapacitated one day and your wife is caring for you, protecting you, even changing your diaper. I have had young men tell me that even so, they will still be the “head”. Such silliness is not from Christ.

  30. Hello Anon1,

    Thank you for your comment. I was not trying to avoid Dee’s question. I posted a lengthy response in a prior post where most of the discussion was taking place.


  31. Seneca –

    I prefer Dee and Deb’s “wicked” response on behalf of victims to your “wicked” sigh that that’s just the way our world is. — Dana

    Translation of Seenca’s sigh: “Eh, Kismet, written on our foreheads before the foundation of the world — In’shal’lah…”

    (Calvin & Mohammed were both heavily into Predestination; it is logical their followers would show the same side effects and that Calvinism would have similarities to Islam. And HyperCalvinism to Extreme Islam.)

  32. Southwestern Discomfort –

    Your last paragraph is something I have been contemplating for a very long time. There are surely pastors who are bivocational, but many of the ones we hear about today via their “celebrity-type status” are also the ones most removed from every day people. Unfortunately, they are also the ones modeling what they think the christian life should look like for EVERYONE, yet they are often the least in touch with, not only their own congregations, but with a lost and broken world. If Jesus is to be our model for life, and certainly our model as a leader, then there are many pastors who have really missed what Jesus said AND did.

  33. Hi Southwester Democrat
    I really liked your commentary.Many of these guys spend time in a pressure cooker in which it is considered par for the course to treat a woman rudely-like walking out when she gives a lesson. Such men find solace in the church for their unloving viewpoints. Also, many of them find the perfect situation in which they can demand obedience from a bunch of people when all they did was complete 3 years of seminary. For the charlatan and bully, the pastorate gives them followers. And, for some, wealth without question.

    The sad part of it all is that there are good men who are pastors who are often drowned out by the loudmouthed theological bullying that goes on. I loved your term “Preacher Rat Pack” and will use it regularly from now on. Well said.

    I am still in a quandary trying to figure out what qualifies a person for headship beyond a simple dose of testosterone.Surely there is more to it than this in the comp view but i cannot seem to get my arms around the issue. It seems pretty amorphous to me.And that is the problem. For some, a woman could be POTUS but could not teach in a church on the role of government. So confusing.

  34. To Southwestern Discomfort who wrote…

    “One thing that I believe has not been thoroughly emphasized on your blog is how so many of these preachers–whether they’re Young, Reformed and Restless or thoroughgoing Arminian–live in a bubble.”

    “This pains me to write, but it’s disgusting to me that I am treated better and my opinion is respected more at my secular employer than it ever was when I went to church.”

    Dear Southwestern,

    Thank you for your thoughtful comments. Using your “bubble” metaphor, I have a couple thoughts:

    1) Many males of Christian pedigree live in a “male bubble”. The “male bubble” is culturally imposed, particularly in the US, which is predominantly “Christian”.
    2) The cultural “male bubble” does nothing good for the cause of Christ. As you well know, Christ teaches us to love our Neighbor as our self, regardless of gender. As posted previously, Christian love has no gender.
    3) Christian males must choose to love their female Neighbor (Christian or secular) with Christ’s love (Agape), not “christian male bubble luv”.
    4) It is indeed “disgusting” that your secular employer can easily out-perform a “christian bubble male” in the mutual respect department.
    5) Real Christian males who choose to behave themselves Christianly, should treat you far better and respect you far more than you were treated when you went to church (and hopefully even better than your employer).
    6) Genderless Christian Agape love is the real deal, the living water that gives us lasting peace.

    Blessings and Happy New Year.

  35. Pingback: Articles of Interest 12-31-11 | Onward, Forward, Toward...

  36. Great points everyone! one cannot be salt and light living in a bubble. It is the problem I have with the fake “office” of “pastor” which only produces a bubble to live in. Pastor is a function within the body. Not an office. Even elders are to be the spiritually mature.

    The root of this lies in how we have institutionalized Christianity. We have done it to ourselves historically. The early Christians would not recognize the way we operate, build huge buildings, celebrities we follow…pastor being paid by the body to perform a spiritual gift function, etc.

    And we wonder why hierarchical thinking is such a problem in Christianity.

  37. I wrote a Merry Christmas message on a previous post to our glamourous blog queens, but it didn’t get posted. So allow me to say Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! I’ve enjoyed seeing your recent photos. Thank you for all you do to educate your readers and to minister to victims of spiritual and church abuse.

    Excellent post and thoughtful commentary! I would love to explore the idea of bivocational pastors more thoroughly. When my Calvinista brother was in seminary at SEBTS, I kept thinking that when he got out of the seminary bubble and in the real world, his thinking and perspectives would change. Didn’t happen. He has just been hired by another church as senior pastor with a VERY generous salary. And so it seems things will continue…

    It certainly seems that, as long as these guys are in their seminary or church bubble, with plenty of money to do and believe and teach and demand what they want, it’s difficult to see things objectively. The church gives them their generous salary and housing allowance and benefits and discretionary funds; the church is their network and their family and their social group; the church is their everything and, literally, their life and lifestyle. It truly is a bubble. The world and those who disagree with their doctrines and beliefs can be shut out entirely.

    Because congregants have often been taught their entire lives that the pastor is king and always right and above reproach, it seems that some of them have little accountability. So, they can stay in their bubble and do what they want. Removing the enormous salaries some of these guys get would, imo, increase accountability and humility.

    I have been frustrated with many years with the inflated salaries and wealth of many of these pastors. Shouldn’t churches use some/most of that money to minister to the sick, homeless, fatherless, addicted. Sure, those churches do a little of that – about 10% of the church’s finances on average (if memory serves on the percentage). Shouldn’t it be a whole lot more? Pay the pastor (and other ministers in the church) far less, and let him use his talents and education and skills elsewhere in the workforce if necessary to support his family.

  38. The problem is, in the real world out where I live, that’s simply not the case. I’m female, my manager is female. Her manager is male. His manager, the executive vice president of our division, is female. She is the smartest person I’ve ever met, one of the most driven people–and she would not put up with crap from a Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney, Ed Young Jr. or any of the rest of the Preacher Rat Pack.”

    Southwestern, I have thought that the best and most humbling thing for the rat pack you mention above is to have to go out and get a real job in the real world. For Driscoll, I would choose a hard charging female lesbian boss. And remember, Driscoll has a mortgage and 5 kids. He has to have that paycheck. So, how is he going to be salt and light in that situation?

    For Mahaney, I would also choose a female boss but one who is very detail oriented who analyzes every word said and micromanages. (This is based upon reading sgmwikileaks :o)

    These guys have no clue what it is like to live in the real world. That is why I cannot listen to them. What can they tell me about being a believer day to day, hour by hour out in the real world? I want to learn from those who have gone before us….refined in the fire. Not the cushy lifesyles of the celebs in their bubbles.

  39. Having never been at SBC Voices, I went looking.
    This is all I found.
    It means nothing to your rant, unless you mean some other SBC Voices. What can I say? I’m not SBC? How many SBC Voices are there?
    (In other words, your snarky name calling is pretty worthless if I can’t find evidence to back it up.)

  40. Anon 2:09

    I think we have been rather clear on this blog. Our problem is not with those who profess Calvinism, it is with those who are Calvinistas. Although I am neither a Calvinist or Arminianist in the strict definition of either group, I have dear and wonderful friends on both sides. In fact, just about every Sunday I eat lunch with a 5 pointer who knows and respects where I stand.

    On this blog, we have gone after folks like Andy Davis, Al Mohler and others who misuse their voices to hurt those who disagree with them. One thing is certain. We have been a clear voice regarding abusive pastors and doctrines. We are currently involved in a project with Wade Burleson in which we will be challenging a doctrine that many Calvinistas hold near and dear. Wade is Reformed and we are not, yet we are friends and share many commonalities. I could easily attend Emmanuel Baptist. For example, Wade tips YEC yet he has a man who teaches a class who is OEC. As our readers know, I am undeniably NOT YE. Wade is a good and decent man whom I consider a friend (along with his awesome wife, Rachelle).

    If you are referring to Debbie Kaufman, we admire her stand on Ergun Caner. We had a great dinner with her at a Chinese buffet. We had much in common and I like her very much. My guess is that we would disagree on some issues regarding Calvinism but we could easily join together to bring the Gospel to a dying world.

    As for being a hypocrite, my current pastor says we are all hypocrites in one way or another. So, my friend, I confess. I am, at times a hypocrite so I agree with you.

    Now, if you know of a particular person that has abused others, let us know. Also, if you would like us to report on a church that has done so, let us know. We would be happy to investigate your complaints and write about it. Spell them out. You have a voice here. In fact, if you would like to write a post on your own experiences, let us know.

  41. anon
    You said “I’ll find your email and if I find the time do some of the work for you.” Now, you have crossed the line. I know Debbie Kaufman and Wade Burleson and love them as my Christian brother and sister. You show little understanding of them.I have tried to be kind with you but this is a warning. We will not tolerate this sort of discussion. I am deleting your last comment. Please rewrite it with facts, not rants.

  42. During the “partial-birth” abortion debate, Sen Boxer told Sen Santorum, “My friend is losing his temper, and he’s laughing, and becoming red in the face.” clearly implied– “Anger is baaad, very very baaaad”. (infanticide–not so much). After 7 minutes of Santorum’s frustrated attempts to get Boxer to define Just What Would Be infanticide, to her. 7:20 mark
    (this announcement not intended to support any presidential candidate, but to support Anger, when called for)

  43. Appalled

    Thank you for the laugh with your comment in parenthesis. I will watch the video after picking up some pizza.

  44. Eagle, was it your wife who was diagnosed with ALS? I’m so sorry. My father died of ALS . . . ironically, on September 11th (not THAT September 11th), and exactly four weeks before my wedding. I knew all along that there was a chance he wouldn’t live to see me get married, and unfortunately, that’s the way it turned out.

  45. Gotcha, Eagle. I have a personal loathing for ALS, for the reasons stated in my previous comment.

  46. Nah, it’s cool Dee, just the occasional problem where some submitted comments alledgedly contain a black-listed word, when in actuality, they do not,… How the corruption creeps in is beyond me…

  47. Muff
    Which word is it? Can you spell it phonetically? We don’t have a list of banned words so this is confusing.I am sorry for any inconvenience.

  48. Muff, I had a post temporarily blocked because of the

    c-i-a-l-i-s in the word

  49. Yeppers Wenatchee,

    It’s the erectile dysfunction med that got me booted. The mystery goes on. How can a simple type-in window with the oldest font known (courier) fall prey to to such Tom-foolery?

    Back in the Jurassic age I worked in the aerospace industry as an NC programmer. It was a UNIX environment (command line, no point and click), we used the vi editor and never had a fraction of the problems we’re infested with today. But the world has moved on (as Stephen King would say) and us old dinosaurs must learn to deal with it or perish by natural selection.

  50. Muff
    I think it is the spam blockers that do this. If they didn’t,we would be flooded with comments for various drugs, home loans, etc. We use a generic one. I do find it funny that specialist gets picked up.

  51. TedS
    I am blessed and not cursed because I brought my tithe? My barns are filled with plenty? Do these guys know they are preaching an OT theology? Wait until their barns get emptied out one day or they encounter struggles in their lives. Far too many people walk out of the faith due to this nonsense.

  52. TedS –

    This is out of character for me but WT? was that I just watched? It made me ill and sent me on the path to a major head ache (2 words intended). Is this an attempt at tithe by hypnosis? No further words 🙁

  53. TedS just catching up on reading and found your YouTube links
    Whoaaaa it’s real life versions of the green witch in the Silver Chair.. .”There is no sun. There is no sun they repeat. There is no overworld. There is no overworld. There Is No World But MINE MINE MINE MINE TITHE TITHE TITHE TITHE