Comment Protocol

TWW  believes in maintaining an open forum, even when we seriously disagree with a particular comment or contributor. We believe that many churches try to control communication by making false claims of gossip or heresy. We have lost readers who disagree with our policy of allowing comments from all perspectives, even atheists.

However, we do need to ask that the comments be limited to opinion on what we know or believe to be true. So, we can say that we believe that Peacemakers should notify congregants that they are signing documents drawn up by lawyers.  But , TWW does not believe that Peacemakers is offering money to people to get them to negotiate. We have removed all comments that pertain to this unfounded charge. 

We appreciate the wonderful group of people who frequent our blog and are thankful for the level of discussion that is the hallmark of our readers. We are blessed.

Comments

Comment Protocol — 77 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I cannot exaggerate how much free flow of tought means to me and how very much I appreciate its cultivation on this blog.

    There are quite a few people that have been hurt by overly authoritative Christian entities that are now atheists. How many of these atheists may be won back to God if His people would only model something that resembles God’s love and care without the snark and self-righteousness?

    I’m thankful that these atheists even bother to contribute their perspective (and I consider their perspective essential to the discussion.)


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    Dee,

    Well said and necessary too. It must be hard to keep folk on track in such a free-flowing blog like this..
    Passing on ‘hearsay’ is always a problem and personal experiences I know can sometimes get exaggerated,so I hope your timely reminder is well taken…


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    @ Dee: a much=appreciated and timely post!

    Thanks so much for your willingness to allow people like me to post here. ๐Ÿ˜‰ (I kid, I kid – but at the same time, it’s true!)

    Must admit that I miss Karlton, though…


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    Well said. And needed. I have been put off a bit by the lengthy and repetitive posts by some commenters. I cannot spend the time to read and keep up with so many long posts that read so much like early ones by the same person. And I agree that, to suggest something that looks like an offense, without any ability to cite to a source, is inappropriate ans should be discouraged.


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    @ Arce: same here.


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    @Dee and Deb: I agree wholeheartedly. I would, however, suggest that when discussing legal issues, the boundaries between what should and should not be said can be blurry. This is true on all blogs, not just TWW.

    Hence perhaps a disclaimer like the one above would be a great addition to any post that touches on legal issues, and there may also be the reality that posts about legal issues will raise contentious issues irrespective of any disclaimers on the matter.

    @Arce:

    You’re an attorney as I recall. When writing about a subject such as Peacemakers that has many legal implications, how do you determine the line between giving professional advice, which you don’t want to do, and merely commenting on legal issues?

    I know that many people struggle with this issue.
    Thanks. Janna


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    Janna

    We have already done so in the about us section. And just about everything in life can be turned into a legal issue.

    As for Arce, he does a great job commenting and is one of the most intelligent and ethical people out there. Perhaps you can go back through and read his comments. They are enlightening.


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    Arce

    I try very hard to walk the line between grace and “over the top.” I think so many people have been hurt by the churches out there that sometimes they need some space to vent. For me, it is always difficult to know when there has been enough venting. I believe I err on being a bit too lenient at times.


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    Numo

    I have written Karl but he has been silent. But my innate charm will win him back at some point.:)


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    I’m not certain why “legal” matters have become such a big issue in comments here (over the past several days), but please – can we just drop the subject? (Not addressed to Deb or Dee!)

    it is wearying to read the same things over and over, especially given the insinuations and unfounded claims.

    Janna, I think we need to table this.


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    DB

    Thank you for getting it. I try so hard to walk the line and prefer to err on the lenient side. To wit, I have only deleted a few comments in the 2 years we have been around. I want everyone to feel welcome even if we disagree with their thoughts. Every person has something important to say…well, usually, there were one or two…


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    Rusty

    Thanks for your input. Yes, it is hard to keep track of all comments but that is what i signed up for when I decided to do this. I just do not want to go in the direction of a moderated blog. It slows things down and I like to see conversations happening in the here and now. I really like it when folks send me emails to alert me to trouble brewing!


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    @Dee – agreed. I have read many of Arce’s comments with great interest as he (I assume it’s he) is intelligent and has great integrity.

    I was just genuinely interested in learning how to better set boundaries regarding legal issues, but we can drop the issue.

    That’s cool.


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    @ Dee: and your pulchitrudinousness!!! [sp?]


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    Dee and I are of the same mind regarding blog protocol. While we encourage healthy dialogue, we have high standards that we absolutely must uphold as Christian bloggers. We strive to the best of our ability to be truthful in all of our posts (which is why we provide so much documentation), and we expect the same of our commenters. Integrity is an extremely high priority here at The Wartburg Watch.


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    Numo
    You sound like our good friend, Junkster. And that is a compliment.


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    Thanks for deleting all the comments pertaining to that post including mine. I hope it was clear though that I was seeking proof of that comment because it appeared to be unfounded and untrue. So that’s why I kept asking for proof.

    As far as lengthy comments, no matter the nature, I don’t let them bother me. If I don’t want to read them, I simply skip over them. If they are inappropriate then let’s say so. But if we just don’t want to read them because they are long, then how is that fair to the person who is working out their thoughts? And what do we agree is too long? One paragraph, four or seven? Its completely subjective. I don’t personally find it a turn off because I simply move my finger and scroll down the page in a mere second to look at the next post. Is it that serious that we critique the length of someone’s message?? Jus’ saying.


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    @ Dee: heehee – the resemblance is entirely intentional!

    Maybe we should get together and go shopping for “glamorous” duds someday. ๐Ÿ˜‰


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    @ NLR: i personally think it’s not so much about the length of comments, but about repetitive long comments…


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    Oh ok. I see.


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    @ NLR: check Arce’s 1st comment on this post… should clarify things a bit.


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    My comments on blogs are intentionally not couched as legal advice, but COMMENTS, sometimes about the state of the law as it relates to churches or some common event or a crime. To give legal advice, I would need to get more information about the specifics of a situation, which would require that I interact with the person more intensely than a public forum allows. General rules do not always apply to specific situations, which is why I cannot give legal advice without an opportunity to explore at length a particular situation.

    Arce is a blog name for a 64 year old, rabidly egalitarian male, with a Ph.D. in Social Psychology (specialty: the psychology of the research process, methodology, statistics, ethics; some study of small groups and attitude changes), 4 years as an academician teaching graduates and undergraduates, 1 yr as a Congressional Science Fellow legislative assistant, stint as chief policy person and speech writer for a gubernatorial candidate, 5 years in contract research (environmental impact statements, enviro sensitive economic development plans, criminology part of the studies resulting in new currency, energy issues – gasoline crises, alternative energy sources), 1 yr in private toxic materials disposal and high voltage service industry, 12 years consulting and seminars on hazardous materials management to managers and engineers in industry and government facilities, 11 years as an attorney.

    Arce is married, by the grace of God, to a woman of great capability and strength needed to match well with Arce. She is an ordained Baptist preacher, former school teacher, with excellent insight into scripture that ties events across chapters in the NT and with OT passages as well, and includes exploration of the psychology of the disciples at key points. Example: Disciples go on mission trips, not very successful; next hear about death of John the Baptist; next pass out food to 5,000; next see Jesus walking on water; next Peter “sees the wind” while walking and sinks. What does that sequence say about processing being in the presence of the Master who walks on water? With spouse, Arce reads theology as a hobby, works on an old house evenings and weekends.

    Arce has fathered two successful young adult children with spouse and will soon be a grandfather. Arce is a gourmet chef specializing in ridiculously cheap but flavorful food; an A grade launderer and stain remover; grocery shopper; and was, for a time, Mr. Mom. Arce loves little children, for they are people the way God created us, before other people messed us up.

    Arce does not do criminal law, does family law, real estate, environmental, debtors, church law, non-profit organizations. Mucho pro bono for abused women and neglected children.

    Arce believes much of the argument about Revelation is due to people possibly mistakenly thinking it is in chronological order, and so is neither pre- nor post-millennial, but the message is “Jesus gonna win and we’re gonna win with Him!” He believes in the priesthood of each and every believer, the local shepherd as the servant employee of the flock, soul freedom and competency, free will, the efficacy of prayer (hence, non-predestinarian), and that the dominant characteristic of God is love, a love so big he came to die an ugly death for us.


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    NLR

    This post was not directed at you. In fact, you were one who called for proof, a true Berean!!


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    Arce

    Awesome comment and even more awesome person! So glad that you are here!


  25. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gee Arce, all that and you do laundry too! now I feel like a big useless blob. :o)


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    Thanks for clarifying for me because I wasn’t clear if I had “participated” or not–and wanted to apologize if I did. ๐Ÿ˜‰


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    Arce–

    If you were single and 30 years younger… Wooo weeee! You’d be in trouble! Your wife’s a lucky gal! I’m praying for my hunk of an egalitarian as we speak! Ha!


  28. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    yea, but I don’t golf, gamble, play ball, bowl, take trips to “tourist” places (except natural wonders), go to movies (exc star wars and cartoons), or bake. Watch only a little TV. Spouse or friends do the lawn care most of the time (friends do it as a way to pay back for rides and other help, not my initiative, but I do not say no to preserve their dignity). I do dishes about 1/4 of the time (we have a dishwasher in basement waiting for remodel to get to point of installation).

    BTW, I believe that deacons (or elders) are servants of the church, not a board of directors, and should be ministering to the congregation by visitation, helping with needs, counseling, etc.


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    NLR

    I had prayed to God that, if he wanted me to be married again, he would bring someone into my life and she would meet the fleece I laid out, including that she would propose. About four weeks later, she walked into the SS class I was in, caught my eye immediately (tan heels, light tan suit w brown suede collar), proceeded to comment in a way that contradicted my comment. 3wks later we went on first date, 6 days later she proposed. ten weeks later we married. Almost 33 years since that first encounter, and still (yet again) madly in love.


  30. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    BTW, when see contradicted me that first day, she was right!!!


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    Arce–

    I’m over here laughing my butt off !!! She proposed???! That last residual speck of complementarian in me just grabbed my pearls and passed out. I’m now fanning myself like an old southern black church lady with my hands raised callin’ on Jesus! Hahsha!!


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    I’m black BTW… FYI


  33. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    It’s so nice to meet Christians I feel I would enjoy having a beer with and I would also benefit from some of Arce’s experience in the high voltage service industry, because sometimes I’m a little dim-witted.

    http://sacredsandwich.com/archives/8140


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    Arce, most impressive CV, I deem you a true elder having lived such a life rich enough to have been two or three lifetimes.

    Making reference to the self in the third person was done brilliantly (it usually irritates me but it worked this time.)


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    Well, so are many of my heroes. My roommate my sophomore and junior years was black (as was my best casual friend in college). With about 5000 mens dorm rooms, ours was the only racially integrated room other than in the athletic dorm, where I never saw any statistics.


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    DB

    not my usual practice, either. But since Arce is a pseudonym, I felt it might be more appropriate!


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    NLR

    No wonder she proposed!


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    NLR,

    there is an organization called Christians for Biblical Equality, which is a wonderful organization with a statement of faith you could probably agree to. They have a web site, publish an academic journal and a more popular-style magazine, and host conferences. Worth looking into. They predate CBMW.


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    Deb–
    I know, right!!

    Arce–

    That is so cool!


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    Dee,

    but at the time I was working on the political campaign for $25/week, a place to sleep and some meals (volunteered to the campaign), and was planning to go back to Washington after the election.


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    She had no idea what she was getting into!


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    Evie

    That is one of the funniest blogs I have ever read! I will read more tomorrow and may put a link to it.


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    Arce

    The women of TWW applaud the perspicacity of Mrs. Arce.


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    Arce—

    I’m already there! ;). It’s splendiferous!! S’Wonderful! S’Marvelous!


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    Dee–

    Before I applaud, I’m off to Google “perspicacity”. Ha!


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    Okay. Agreed. Now applauding and standing too!


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    dee said: “I have written Karl but he has been silent. But my innate charm will win him back at some point.:)”

    dee, this made me laugh – not because you don’t have any innate charm, but I can just imagine this making Karl chuckle, too. ๐Ÿ™‚


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    NLR, Know what I love about the internet? You cannot tell if a commenter is female/male or black/white. Sounds like what Galatians was getting at…

    Evie, Love the Sacred Sandwich! Hate beer. Can I bring the wine?


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    Lin–

    True! But I gave that FYI so as not to offend anyone about the old southern black lady comment (which, Lord willing, someday I’ll be). Haha!


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    “But I gave that FYI so as not to offend anyone about the old southern black lady comment (which, Lord willing, someday Iโ€™ll be)!”

    You mean you are SOUTHERN? GASP.


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    Eagle
    Nothing whatsoever to do with you. We love having you visit here!


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    Lin/NLR

    Are you telling me that nice Baptist ladies imbibe? True story: During my stint at an SBC church for 7 years, I used to feel guilty when I bought some wine at my local supermarket. I would hide it under the vegetables. However, the moment I left, all guilt vanished. I now put it beside the milk.


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    Baptist — freedom of conscience, soul competency, Bible, Bible, Bible, and the Bible teaches the consumption of wine.

    My favorite one about wine — “what Jesus made for the wedding was grape juice — called new wine” and “the cup at the Last Supper was grape juice, because it was in the spring”

    Well in the spring it would have been from the previous growing season, so it would have fermented, which is why the disciples, after drinking several rounds during the seder and at least one after, could not stay awake in the garden.

    When you squeeze grapes, the yeast that grows on the grape skin is transferred to the juice and in a few days fermentation will create alcohol, aka wine. Of course, you could choose to believe that the grapes and yeast were different 2000 years ago and what has happened since then is EVOLUTION!

    The saw about old vs. new wineskins. New wine produces carbon dioxide as the fermentation continues to occur, and the gas pressure will destroy any stiff old wineskin, but the new skin can flex and stretch a bit.


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    I likes it all: beer, wine, liquor. Hahaha! Lilliana Irish red, guineas stout, yuengling when my funds are low, ha! And I like hefeweisen and girly Belgian lambics ๐Ÿ˜‰


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    Man! Dang you, iPad! Always trying to correct me… I meant Killians and Guinness! Lol. Somebody tell iPad to leave me alone!! (insert mean side eye)


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    I distribute a scripture each work day that I get from a retired lady lawyer friend via email. Today’s:

    The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.โ€ 1 Samuel 16:7 (NIV)


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    Dee and Deb — thanks for the way you run this blog.


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    Among the many blessings of this life is the fruit of the vine.

    But, alas, I live in the most uncivilized state in the union, Pennsylvania, the land in which the only wine to be found in the grocery store is the whine you hear in the check out lane with the candy displayed at toddler height.


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    DB

    Major surprise! YOu can buy wine in the supermarket in the South but not in the North? Liquor store lobby, perhaps?


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    @ Dee: PA has very antiquated blue laws, and the state has a monopoly on the sale of wine and stronger stuff. ‘Tis been that way since forever, and since it brings them $$$, I don’t think it’s gonna change anytime soon.


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    Does this reflect a change in policy on the part of TWW? I see folks posting highly speculative stuff about a number of different entities all the time.
    “Why, I wouldn’t be surprised if…”; “He probably has…”; “I guarantee he…”


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    Dee, numo, and others who’ve touched on the alcohol thingy. Y’all would never make good Calvary Chapelites. Their aversion to alcohol in any form or in any circumstance is alsmost Islamic, and their wimminz are exhorted to never strive for anything higher than the kitchen stove.


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    Hmmm…. Muff, don’t they know that a little pale ale makes the body well??? I haven’t met a bourbon yet that couldn’t cure acute melancholy, at least temporarily. And a nice strong margarita, (Petron Silver, preferrably)after a sin-sniffing Sunday at church helps me make it back to evening service for some more sniffing. And how dare we let you get baptised and not have some Pinot Grigio or a nice light bodied Shiraz with long toned legs at your after party? That would be so unChristian like. (insert the most sarcastic of faces you can imagine. Can’t you tell I used to bartend?)


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    NLR,

    Muff is a drunk who’s managed to stay sober for 15 yrs. So long as he doesn’t down that first one, he’ll stay sober and not have a problem. The alternative is unthinkable, he might as well put a pistol in his mouth, angle it upwards where it’ll do the most good and squeeze the trigger, it’d be far quicker I think.

    For those who can imbibe like ladies and gentlemen, I applaud you!
    Tilt a couple for old Muff.


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    @numo:

    I too miss Karlton’s comments and wish he’d return. I readily enjoy the comments of thinkers as opposed to the cocksure pronouncements of dogmatists.


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    the Shield

    I am not sure I understand your question. In this particular circumstance, there was a direct accusation about a monetary situation that was most likely untrue. However, it is legitimate to speculate on the basis of a number of facts. So, it would be well within reason to say that it appears that being asked to sign a covenant that is drawn up by an attorney, without being told that it might be advisable to get legal input into such a document, could put someone at a disadvantage.

    Is that an answer to your question?


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    “Does this reflect a change in policy on the part of TWW? I see folks posting highly speculative stuff about a number of different entities all the time.
    โ€œWhy, I wouldnโ€™t be surprised ifโ€ฆโ€; โ€œHe probably hasโ€ฆโ€; โ€œI guarantee he”

    What else can one do when leaders are:

    1. Saying one thing and doing another

    2. Hiding everything they can to put on a public persona and not being transparent.

    3. And asking you for money while doing 1 and 2.

    These behaviors leave lots of room for speculation concerning people who strive to be well known. They enjoy the cult of personality as long as people do not ask uncomfortable questions about behavior or teaching. If they don’t want scrutiny, then do not strive become high profile with books, speaking gigs, etc.


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    Muff

    I don’t make a “good” anything that forces me to fit into some secondary issue mode that has been raised to primary importance. That is what gets me into trouble with old stick in the muds who are so cock sure they know without a shadow of a doubt, that the earth was created in 6 literal days or that Jesus only drank unfermented wine or that women should shut up in church.


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    Lin
    You have hit the nail on the head. These guys jump up and down. screaming look at me, look at me. Then when we do and don’t like what we see, they tell us to shut up and not make any judgments.They want us to see only what they have told us to see. Too bad that smart people happen to have a brain to evaluate. If only they could control that then they would be happy. They sure try, don’t they?


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    Good answer Dee.


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    Muff–

    Keep it going, buddy. 15 years is awesome. In that case, I won’t down a few for old Muff–but I’ll have a gingerale with a squeeze of lime? Modesty prevents me to have a drink for old Muff (lol), it just wouldn’t be fair… We could still sing some great pub songs and be totally sober though! I’ll start…

    “Sing us a sonnnng the piano mannnnn! Sing us a song toniiiteee!!!”


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    Muff
    I sent you comment, along with Numo’s to Karl.


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    Muff

    15 years! How awesome. Did you know that I worked in an alcoholic hospital for a couple of summers? I loved it.

    I do remember, during the first week on the job, I walked into a room of a newly admitted police officer. He looked at me as clear as day and said “Stop where you are and don’t move.” I did and asked why. He said “Slowly look up. There are big, fat birds with colored wings waiting to dive onto you.” I couldn’t help myself. I did look. Then, I went to the nurses station to see if this man could receive a bit more medication.

    Then, my brother told me a TRUE story about one of his patients. He is an internist and is also boarded in substance abuse treatment. He admitted a female patient to a local hospital and ordered the standard detox meds. He got a call from her nurse that said the patient was hysterical because she was seeing a naked man in her room. My brother upped her meds. One hour later the nurse called and said the patient was still screaming that there was a naked man running through her room. Once again, my brother upped her meds. 30 minutes later, the nurse called and said the patient was hysterical about a naked man.

    Well, my bro said the poor woman should have been sound asleep with all those meds so he decided to drive over to the hospital to see if he could figure out what was going on. The woman was awake and crying and asked my brother to get rid of the naked man. So, he proceeded to look under her bed to humor her and told her perhaps the man had gone away. She was still crying so he opened the bathroom door to show her there was no man. Finally, in exasperation, he flung open the closet door. Inside was a naked patient from down the hall who obviously needed more meds himself!

    So, just because you are in detox does not mean that there aren’t naked men in your room. Profound theology there!


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    Isn’t PA the state with the first Distillers union? From the whiskey rebellion?


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    NLR,

    So you were the waitress practicing politics while I slowly got stoned? (With aplogies to Billy Joel!) HA!


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    @ Lin: well now, that happened out in Pittsburgh. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    True story: when one of my brothers sat for his college board exam (long time ago), there was a multiple-choice question about the Whiskey Rebellion – what caused it?

    One of the answers was “Because the state stores closed early.”

    ๐Ÿ˜‰

    @ dee: thanks so very much for passing on those comments to Karlton, and Muff, I’m with you on thinking vs. dogmatism. ๐Ÿ™‚


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    2 comments removed by editor.