Rob Bell, Martin Bashir and Babies in Hell…?

"The safest road to hell is the gradual one – the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts." -C. S. Lewis

 

Rob Bell at Mars Hill  Link

 

 

 

I am continuing in my schizophrenic approach to Rob Bell and the theology behind heaven and hell.
 

 

Do infants who die go to hell?
 

So, one day at a former church, I was looking for my kids in the Sunday school area and bumped into a man from my adult Sunday school class. To this day I am not sure what precipitated the following comment but, by golly, I remember it well. With a fanatical gleam in his eye, he said that infants who die go to hell. Shocked, and momentarily forgetting about my kids, I said, with great aplomb, “You have got to be kidding!” He then went on to tell me that I should be glad that I was chosen, before time, to go to heaven because God has only selected a few people to receive His grace. He also said that it glorifies God to torture people, meaning babies in this discussion, for eternity because it is a fate we all deserve and I should be glad that He chose anyone at all to be saved. He seemed to have the inside scoop on who was going where and he did not doubt his conclusions for a minute. (Note: I believe he was convinced he was going as well. Such comments are rarely heard from someone who is convinced he is not one of the elect).
 

So, not understanding the theological history behind his statement, I decided that the poor man was one asiago cheese bagel shy of a dozen and hastily exited his presence. Since that time, I have encountered more people, although not many, who espouse this viewpoint. However, those that did express that point of view to me were all Calvinistic in their theology so I explore that point of view today. Before the Calvinists in the audience begin to hyperventilate, please take a deep breath and read this through to its conclusion.

 

What did Calvin espouse in his Institutes and other writings? Well, Peter Lumpkins did an excellent job (personal aside-is all forgiven?) in reviewing some pertinent passages from Calvin's writings. Here is a link to his entire post entitled: On Calvinism and Infant Salvation: A Brief Proposal by Peter Lumpkins. Please go to his post for a more in depth analysis. It is worth the read. Link

Lumpkins builds the case that Calvin believed that children possess latent sin (?original sin) which must be forgiven. Calvin appears to conclude that some infants are preordained to salvation and others are sent to eternal torment. Predestination appears to be the key in understanding this approach. Lumpkins includes the following quotes from Calvin's works.
 

“As far as relates to young children, they seem to perish not by their own, but for another’s fault; but the solution is twofold; for although sin does not appear in them, yet it is latent, since they carry about with them corruption shut up in their soul, so that they are worthy of condemnation before God (Ezek. Comm. 18:4)

 

“We ought, therefore, to hold it as a settled point, that all who are destitute of the grace of God are involved in the sentence of eternal death. Hence it follows, that the children of the reprobate, whom the curse of God pursues, are liable to the same sentence. Isaiah, therefore, does not speak of innocent children, but of flagitious and unprincipled children who perhaps even exceeded their parents in wickedness; in consequence of which they were justly associated with their parents, and subjected to the same punishment, seeing that they have followed the same manner of life…it was with their parents that the rejection began, on account of which they also have been forsaken and rejected by God. Their own guilt is not set aside as if they had been innocent; but, having been involved in the same sins as to reprobation, they are also liable to the same punishments and miseries. (Isa. Comm 14:21)

 

“I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknow what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree. Should any one here inveigh against the prescience of God, he does it rashly and unadvisedly. For why, pray, should it be made a charge against the heavenly Judge, that he was not ignorant of what was to happen? Thus, if there is any just or plausible complaint, it must be directed against predestination” (Inst. Book 3, Sec. 23, 7)

 

Of this particular (last) passage, 19th C. Reformed theologian Dr. H. J. Van Dyke says: "Now let us be candid with ourselves, and even with our opponents. Historic Calvinism does include what Calvin himself calls the horribile decretum, that by the election and predestination of God many nations, with their infant children, are irretrievably doomed to eternal death” (Variations within Calvinism, pp.39-40)"

 

However, it seems that current Calvinists diverge from this conclusion. John Piper addresses this issue at his website, Desiring God. Link

 

“God in his justice will find a way to absolve infants who die of their depravity. It will surely be through Christ. But beyond that we would be guessing. It seems to me that the most natural guess would be that babies will grow up in the kingdom (either immediately, or over time) and will by God's grace come to faith so that their justification is by faith alone just like ours.

 

It is important to emphasize that, in our view, God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.”


“As Spurgeon pointed out, it is not that God chooses someone to salvation because they are going to die in infancy. Rather, He has ordained that only those who have been chosen for salvation will be allowed to die in infancy. God's justice in condemnation will be most clearly seen by allowing those who will not be saved to demonstrate their inherent sinfulness through willful, knowing transgression.”
 

Interestingly, Reformed.org seems to present a slightly different take. Link

 

“Most Calvinistic theologians have held that those who die in infancy are saved. The Scriptures seem to teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved; but they are silent or practically so in regard to those of the heathens. The Westminster Confession does not pass judgment on the children of heathens who die before coming to years of accountability. Where the Scriptures are silent, the Confession, too, preserves silence. Our outstanding theologians, however, mindful of the fact that God's "tender mercies are over all His works," and depending on His mercy widened as broadly as possible, have entertained a charitable hope that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves, their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved on wholly evangelical principles.


Such, for instance, was the position held by Charles Hodge, W. G. T. Shedd, and B. B. Warfield. Concerning those who die in infancy, Dr. Warfield says: "Their destiny is determined irrespective of their choice, by an unconditional decree of God, suspended for its execution on no act.”

 

 

Age of accountability

Finally, the age of accountability always arises in this debate. Basically, this means that infants and children are protected and go to heaven until they reach the age in which they can make a rational decision about their beliefs.  Rob Bell, in Love Wins, makes a claim that the Bible does not explicitly discuss this issue. In my understanding of his book, he says that many doctrines within the faith surrounding the issue of heaven and hell are made up by humans, not the Bible.
 

Is he correct? The answers by theologians are a bit confusing. I did find an interesting viewpoint expressed on the blog A Reasonable Faith written by John K. Link
 

He begins by quoting John Piper.
 

“God only executes this judgment on those who have the natural capacity to see his glory and understand his will, and refuse to embrace it as their treasure. Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God's inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.”

 

John K concludes that there must be an age of accountability and he proceeds to determine what that is.
 

“Because they have not followed me wholeheartedly, not one of the men twenty years old or more who came up out of Egypt will see the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob- (Num 32:11)

 

In this desert your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. (Num 14:29)

 

And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. (Deut 1:39)
 

By harmonizing these three verses, I believe we can infer that:

1. There is an age (at least there was among the Israelites in the desert) before which people did not know right from wrong.
2. This age was the age below which children were allowed to enter the promised land.
3. That age was 20 years of age.”

 

So, according to John K, the age of 20 is the drop dead point, in a manner of speaking!
 

This leaves me with the following questions.

  • Do babies go to heaven?
  • How do we develop an age of accountability?
  • What about those born with diminished mental capabilities?

 

Personally, I believe that infants go to heaven. For Biblical text support, I go to the events surrounding the death of King David's tiny son. 2 Samuel 12:22-23 (Bible Gateway-NIV)

"22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

 

David seems convinced that he will one day join his son. If God saves babies, I believe He will also save those with diminished mental capacities as well. I have no idea when the age of accountability is but I think there must be one because David’s infant son is going to be in heaven but Judas, an adult, is not.

 

Rob Bell-Who is he, really?

I have read his book and I have viewed a fair number of videos. Frankly,  the more that I listen and read, the more confused I become. Today, I have included his explanation to his church regarding the criticism of his book, Love Wins. Frankly, it doesn’t begin to answer my questions but it is worth a listen. Remember, this is what he wanted to say to his church who should be his most ardent supporters

 

 

 

Just Who is Martin Bashir?

Martin Bashir interviewed Rob Bell recently. Many people were startled that he appeared to know a great deal about this subject. His interview put Rob Bell on the spot. The video has gone viral and people have asked about Bashir's background.

According to Wikipedia Link
 

Bashir is “currently with NBC News as a contributor for its Dateline program, and an afternoon anchor for MSNBC, hosting Martin Bashir. He was previously an anchor for ABC's Nightline."

 

According to an article posted as "Talk to Me" in the Guardian 1/22/03 Link
 

Bashir was born into a Muslim family but is now a “devout Christian introvert.” He is known for” his interviews with Diana, Princess of Wales, and Michael Jackson.

 

“He has made his name by persuading the most reclusive stars to part the curtain that protects their souls, but Martin Bashir never makes the mistake of dropping his own guard. He has never given a lengthy interview, rarely talks about his work and eschews the limelight that dazzles so many of his colleagues.


He has made his name by persuading the most reclusive stars to part the curtain that protects their souls, but Martin Bashir never makes the mistake of dropping his own guard. He has never given a lengthy interview, rarely talks about his work and eschews the limelight that dazzles so many of his colleagues.”

 

I would say that this article, written 8 years ago, is spot on. In this interview with Bell, Bashir gets him to drop a bit of his curtain, and I must say, Bell looks like a deer caught in the headlight. Once again, I am not sure that Bell truly thought through many of the implications of some of his conclusions in his book. You decide.

 

 

 

Lydia's Corner: Judges 6:1-40 Luke 22:54-23:12 Psalm 95:1-96:13 Proverbs 14:5-6
 

 

Comments

Rob Bell, Martin Bashir and Babies in Hell…? — 102 Comments


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    Regarding the “babies go to hell” guy at your former church, I used to read over at Challies all the time and there were several commenters who were always bringing this up and they said the same thing your guy said to you. This was years ago when blogging first started and Challies was the “it” guy in blogging. But the Calvinism was a bit much.

    I agree with you in using the passage about David to wrestle with this question. It is not God saying it but David had a peace about it AFTER the baby died.

    Today I read the Time Mag article that features Bell and his book. I do not understand people. Bell allowed them to take the most ridiculous photo of him praying. It looked so fake.

    And yes, Bell is confusing because he is confused. But what Bell does not seem to understand is that he does make statements that seem to answer his own questions yet he denies it! That is what is confusing. That is what Bashir nailed him on.

    And I think Mohler and Piper love this stuff because they get quoted in Time. You cannot buy that kind of PR for your books and conferences. IN fact, many won’t believe this but these big cheeses send out press releases all the time with their responses to this stuff hoping to get quoted. It is a business.


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    Dee, you wrote:
    “…Personally, I believe that infants go to heaven. For Biblical text support, I go to the events surrounding the death of King David’s tiny son…”

    Don’t forget Romans 2:14-16. Or better yet (for this one time case anyway), forget about the Bible and examine your own conscience. Does it condemn or excuse you? Ask your own guts throughout the thoracic and abdominal cavities (this is what the Hebrews meant by the word “heart”) if God’s justice demands that little babies be pan fried like the canaanites used to do with their red hot brass idols.


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    May I be a bit of a wet blanket and note that David’s comment more than likely refers to Sheol – aka, the Hebrew name for the abode of the dead? There was no developed concept of “heaven” (or of “hell,” as we understand it) in the OT.

    Just isn’t there.

    However… my texts for babies/small children and heaven would be, first and foremost, the passages where Jesus says “Suffer the little children to come unto me…” and following. (The “following” being extremely important for the purpose of this discussion.)

    Can I be honest about this weird Calvinist “latent sin” thing? I find it utterly repulsive. (Have noticed some people commenting over at SGM Survivors re. “latent sin” recently and felt a bit hornswoggled by the whole idea. I mean, ???) Why would a merciful Father send infants to hell???!!!

    Which is, in a nutshell, one of the reasons I can’t bring myself to believe in lots of things re. the conventional view of hell.

    and fwiw, I don’t think Bell is saying he has arrived anywhere, but I do appreciate the questions he is asking.


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    I can’t accept Calvinist theology, either, and this thing about babies just spells out they “whys” of that.


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    Can I just say that I think Bashir was off in his insistence on forcing some questions rather than actually discussing what Bell says in the book?

    I don’t like the Bashir piece at all, and think he’s allowing his own biases to dictate the discussion.


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    I am thankful for biases in this situation. Finally some pointed questions that have depth instead of the typical circular conversation about nothing. I don’t think Bell was expecting it at all. He was probably expecting to be able to ramble with his “questions” about hell. He did look like a deer caught on the Highway.

    I do not see Bell as all that different from Mohler, Piper, Mahaney, etc. And I am not talking about theology. I think they are all showmen. Performers. They just have a different schtick.


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    I wish he had given Bell a chance to explain where he is coming from prior to launching into the pointed questions.

    Also, Bashir’s statement prior to the piece itself is inaccurate. he says that Bell is a universalist, which is not an accurate assessment of the book. I bet Bashir only had a press release or two; that’s the usual thing for prep in these kinds of situations. (Much like music reviewers who read what’s called a “one-sheet” and write “reviews” without really taking time to listen to the music, read other material on the releases and draw their own conclusions – happens much more often than it should, by all rights…)


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    I only have read up to the “Age of Accountability” section, but I can’t wait to read the rest of this until I get this out of my system.

    Quoted of Piper:
    God in his justice will find a way to absolve infants who die of their depravity. It will surely be through Christ. But beyond that we would be guessing. It seems to me that the most natural guess would be that babies will grow up in the kingdom (either immediately, or over time) and will by God’s grace come to faith so that their justification is by faith alone just like ours.

    Many people criticize me for criticizing Piper, but I have read far more weird stuff from this man, and it far outweighs the good. I honestly look for the good in him. I really do. But what is this?

    He makes a statement that suggests authority that God is just and makes a way for infants (assuming that this means all infants, both “in the covenant community of believing parents” and outside the Faith. Then, he says that it is SURELY through Christ. But then, following on the heels of making two authoritative statements, the guy says, “beyond that,” we would be guessing. Well, isn’t what he said to begin with guessing? Or is it not guessing because he believes it and says it? What definitive Scripture can he give or even a presumptive one does he use to defend this? He doesn’t say. I can’t give a “SURELY” statement, though I can give you a list of ones that I think argue that our loving Creator would call infants and young children to Him. I can’t give you a positive (definitive) one, otherwise we would not be having this debate and Piper could just quote the Scripture.

    Babies will grow up in the kingdom. Hold the phone. This is more of his anthropmorphic view of the afterlife that he somehow discerns by what reason I know not. God puts our essence in us — our conscious awareness that we call life. Baring the discussion of whether people are dichotomists or trichotomists (are we just a body and a soul/spirit, or are we body, soul, and separate spirit?), we don’t know that this part of a human being is aged or ageless. I know Piper thinks we are eternally male and female, but does he think that our spirits have ages? How do we know whether there is any age to our eternal soul?

    Here is where I think that Piper sees too many things about the nature of God and the nature of man through anthropomorphized “lenses” (as his buddy Ware is want to say). These guys benchmark the afterlife based upon what eye has seen and ear has heard. We are not told that we have ages in heaven. We are told that we will not be married or given in marriage in heaven. We are not told that there are babies in heaven.

    Sorry again. Piper, in this statement, sounds like he is making a statement that is much more in line with some mystical doctrine about purgatory. Why would a soul be confined to their physical age in life? If there are babies that have to be raised into adulthood in heaven, are their wet nurses there who feed them? Are they the righteous dead? Since Ware tells us that godly women are saved through childbirth, we know it’s not mothers who died while in delivery. Does God send these unsaved infants to Abraham’s bosom while they grow up?

    Protagoras said that man was the measure of all things. Why do I hear so many elements of the same thing in what these men preach? Maybe not in the bare elements of salvation, but man’s flesh is the measure of the afterlife. We are not made in God’s likeness, but He is more like us in our confines of human flesh that He created.

    Piper is right in that we are guessing. Eye hath not seen, neither ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man those things that are prepared for us.

    But I guess Jesus goes down to these babies or instant adults and preaches salvation to them, and then His irresistible grace translates them from Abraham’s bosom to heaven. Or do they go to purgatory maybe? This stuff sounds half mystical quasi-Roman Catholic, and it’s the Roman Catholic doctrines that made this issue of a child’s eternal fate such a point of torment and why Calvin wrote some of the things that he did.

    I just find it dishonest to say on one hand that we can only guess but then make definitive sounding statements and use words like “surely” to describe guesses. He can’t back any of that up with Scripture, and he should state that honestly. We don’t know. I would have more respect for him if he said “I’ve speculated about this in my own heart, but none of us know. These are my musings and should not be misunderstood as doctrine. But here’s six references which I believe makes the case that infants will be received by Jesus.” I don’t think that he can come right out and say something like this because too many hard Calvinists would go bonkers. But this way, he can sound like a nice guy who makes it work for his fans and his critics. Piper’s a nice guy because all babies go to heaven, and he’s also a good Calvinist because he’s not softening on the five points.

    Rant over.

    Gonna go back and read now.


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    RE: numo says @ Thu, May 05 2011 at 05:55 pm & Thu, May 05 2011 at 05:56 pm,

    I agree, the concept of the hell we are familiar with in our Hellenistic Western tradition is simply not there in the OT. Neither is the concept of an immortal soul existing as a separate entity from the fleshly body. In Hebraic thought, no such bifurcation exists, body and soul are an integral unit. In addition to this view, the only thing that leaves the body upon death is ruach, or the life force which animates both man & beast. I happen to subscribe to the Jewish view.

    You’re not alone numo, I can no longer buy into the old system either, even Luther’s insistence that the literal sense of Scripture must always take primacy over the allegorical and parabolic sense. I think that Erasmus won the argument with Luther on that account.


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    Sorry but this is one of those topics where from my point of view it all comes down to people deciding “how God thinks”. And if we believe in an infinite God who created the universe, well, we really have no idea how God thinks. And use imposing our views on “his processes” is just silly. Sort of like my dogs trying to interpret why I get in the car and drive away every day. I wonder if they are wondering what dog he’s taking to the vet today?

    I’ll go away for now. I’m sure more than a few will yell at me.


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    @ Muff: well, my point in saying that (re. Sheol) is that we tend to read backward, so to speak – imposing ideas on OT texts that simply were/are not there. I think it behooves us to be careful to *not* do that, which is one of the things Bell addresses in his book – more of a meditation on “last things” (imo) than a book that is intended to make clear statements about doctrine and dogma.

    The longer I live, the more I’m inclining toward Erasmus’ view!


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    @ Muff again: my hunch is that Erasmus is close to the Anglican via media – or maybe I should say that the Anglican via media is close to Erasmus’ way of thinking? (Not sure if that’s correct; it’s just a speculation on my part.)

    At any rate, I looked up some of what he says about free will and am planning to go back and read more closely at some point in the near future. I can’t help thinking that Luther’s love for God was offset by a deep – and unhealthy – fear of him as some kind of divine tyrant. (Sort of like Jonathan Edwards’ conception of a wrathful God.)

    My brain is a bit stalled out, though… there are lots of paradoxes in this life, and in our faith, and I tend to get my wheels spinning, trying to figure them out, when I might be better off if I quit working so hard and just relaxed a bit. ; )


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    Who Knows

    I am delighted that you would weigh in. There are a few people I would “yell” at but it isn’t you. It is reserved for those who would hurt those who are honestly seeking for answers. Also, I rescue dogs and I loved your example about what Fido thinks when you leave home in the morning.

    I believe it was Hank Hannegraaff who said something along the lines of: God explaining the intricacies of who He is to us is akin to us explaining ourselves to a mollusk.

    Hope to hear from you again.


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    Cindy
    Good insight.The reason I quote Piper and Reformed.org is that the people who I have heard who believe that babies burn in hell to the glory of God have all been Calvinists. Piper is a rascally cat. He believes that women should endure getting beat up for one night and then saves babies. Although I agree with him that babies will not burn in hell, I disagree with his exegesis-that babies go to heaven as babies and grow up there. Does this mean that an elderly person goes to heaven and grows down there? There was a great Star Trek episode in which the latter happened in a culture-people were born old and died as infants (I would hate to be there for THAT birth).


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    Cindy, You are pointing out the serious problems I have with Piper. He is more like Bell than he wants to admit except that Piper makes his statements authoritatively. If more folks would analyze all his teaching as you have done above, they would see that he is actually very strange and when you take away the passion, adjectives and adverbs, there is not a lot there.

    I can remember being astounded that more folks did not call him out on his teaching about primogeniture being the foundation for comp doctrine. I could not believe he could teach this with a straight face considering God ignored primogeniture quite a few times when choosing leaders for His purposes.

    Nevermind about his teaching that a husband who asks his wife to have a threesome is to STILL be viewed as her leader.


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    Muff

    I spent a good part of yesterday thinking about your comment. There is much to be said for us examining our own conscience in this matter. We are created in the image of God and I believe that all men have some inkling of the realities of God. And yes, my whole being revolts against the idea of God sentencing babies to hell. In fact, I believe that anyone who does not find the image revolting probably has a screw loose.

    And you are correct-the ancient pagans sacrificed their babies in the arms of an iron idol which was heated up to sear, in agony, the innocents. The Calvinistas who advocate a God like this are schizophrenic in the view of the Almighty.

    For me, I believe that justice will be meted out in the hereafter. (Saw a funny cartoon yesterday-It was a picture of Osama in the ocean-where he was dumped-surrounded by a bunch of fish saying 72 Sturgeons???) I don’t fully understand how it all works bur Satan and his pals are dealt with, those who did unspeakable evil in this world are dealt with and I believe God gives each person what he wants. If he didn’t want God in this world, then I don’t think God drags him kicking and screaming into His presence in the next. I plan to deal with some others thinking in this matter in the next post or two.

    Not bad for “a drunken old sot” šŸ™‚


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    Who knows,

    All I know is that I want to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am. :o)


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    Numo

    You are NOT a wet blanket. I like reading your thoughts.

    I find the David statement interesting. If David did not believe in a real hereafter, Sheol is just a place for the dead, then why would David say he would go to him (his son). There is no “him” in Sheol except for bones. Now perhaps you mean that but I see a little more hope in his statement than that. However, you point is well taken.

    Now, on the paradoxes and reading backwards deal:

    My current pastor, who is one of the good guys, believes that we must read backwards through the lenses of the New Testament. He points our something I had never observed. Did you notice that Paul rarely talks about Jesus and the miracles along with his ministry? Paul focuses on the Cross and Resurrection. This gives context to the most important purpose of Jesus. So many people want to focus on Jesus-the Good Guy. But Paul tells us the focus in on Jesus the Sacrificial Lamb.

    So in many respects, we understand the OT only through the events and perspectives of the NT. In fact, the whole story pivots around the Cross.

    I actually found the Bashir thing amusing.Why? Well, conservatives have always dislike MSNBC due to its perceived skewed leftist viewpoint. Then, out of the blue, comes a Christian interviewer and kind of turns things on its head. I watched another Bell interview with George Stephanopoulos who , in my opinion, gave Bell a pass. That is what I though would happen with Bashir. Keeps me on my toes!


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    “conservatives have always dislike MSNBC due to its perceived skewed leftist viewpoint. Then, out of the blue, comes a Christian interviewer and kind of turns things on its head. ”

    You should record Morning Joe. Left, right, and middle all at once. šŸ™‚


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    Lydia

    I think Piper got his start with Desiring God. Like many, who have such a hit book, he now becomes the authority. Therefore, people are willing to accept, at face value, the primogeniture stuff. He then becomes the new “Jesus.” What I mean by this is that he now is to be believed and followed as if he speaks the very words of God. He then provokes a whole new area of study and suddenly we get the Eternal Subordination of the Son which is used to further strengthen the primogeniture stuff. Before you know it, there is a whole new apologetic line of reasoning that is bent on backing up Piper, not the Bible. Or, in their thinking, are they one and the same?

    Note a recent commenter-his concerns were for the gang: Mahaney, Piper, Mohler, etc. He didn’t know who Randle was, couldn’t care less. He knows the “real” leaders. He even called Piper “John” trying to allude that he is on first name basis. Now, if Piper were to invite Randle to a conference, suddenly the commenter would “recognize” him.

    I tried to mention that we should pray for some people I met. Well, to no avail. The whole conversation was about defending idols. This, in itself, is an interesting lesson on this nonsense.


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    “All I know is that I want to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am.”

    Well one of mine is stoic. Her attitude about ANYTHING but a doggie treat seems to be “whatever, life goes on”. The other one on the other hand seems to be convinced that we’re ruining her life by not allowing her to run through all the neighborhood flower beds 5 to 10 times a day. Or anything else she wants to do.


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    Lynn

    Mea culpa! I can’t keep up.


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    Who Knows

    I have a pug dog who suddenly starts barking at the ceiling for no reason. I have developed a new theology around this. I think she is barking at pug angels.


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    Who Knows,

    I have been blessed in my choice of dogs in my life. They have all thought I am wonderful. They are the only living creatures who think that and I have tried to keep it from puffing me up.

    Dee, my guess is you have a critter of some sort in the rafters. I have some friends who have a raccoon saga that is hysterical. The raccoon literally removed a vent in the roof to get in and then had babies!


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    “Note a recent commenter-his concerns were for the gang: Mahaney, Piper, Mohler, etc. He didnā€™t know who Randle was, couldnā€™t care less. He knows the ā€œrealā€ leaders. He even called Piper ā€œJohnā€ trying to allude that he is on first name basis. Now, if Piper were to invite Randle to a conference, suddenly the commenter would ā€œrecognizeā€ him.”

    Dever was on that list. I was trying to figure out what you guys had said about Dever that could be considered negative? Guess he just got lumped in as one of the “leaders”.


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    The correct answers to your questions are simple:

    1. Do babies go to heaven?

    Answer: We don’t know. We would only be guessing. God is both loving and just God, and we can trust those babies with Him.

    2. Do people who are mentally incapacitated (who never had or lost mental faculties that would enable them to understand, repent, believe etc.)?

    Answer: See the answer to number 1 above.

    3. What about the age of accountability?

    Answer: There is obviously a point in every normally developing human when they develop a moral understanding and sense of things. Interestingly, however, I believe that continues well into life.

    But we are not told how that relates to understanding, salvation etc. To construct a doctrine around it is again – guessing.

    Interpretation is hard enough. How about we don’t add guessing to our task.

    The Bashir interview is sad and funny.

    Bell is obviously not theologically grounded enough to even pastor a church, let alone be a leader in the Christian community. But it’s a free country and people are entitled to follow hucksters, the simple, the misguided – whomever.

    There is nothing we can or should do about that.


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    Lydia

    My life is ruled by animals. There is a bluebird that lives in my vicinity. I put worms out each morning to attract them (yes, I know, the wild birds people convinced me). Well, said bluebird is a late riser and often misses the worms that the other birds grab. He has now taken to landing on the hummingbird feeder affixed to my kitchen window next to the table that I sit at, blogging. He taps on the window to get my attention and I have to go get him some worms. He just did it 5 minutes ago. My family thought I was making this up when, last week, he showed up on a weekend and did the same thing.

    Raccoons-oh good night!


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    Lydia

    I remember one point that we made about Dever but it is a fact, not an opinion. Dever would not let Ligon Duncan, his friend, take communion at his church because Duncan believes and practices infant baptism. I made the point that Dever is willing to sacrifice unity around communion in order to enforce a secondary doctrinal issue.

    This to me is a sad state of affairs. Jesus called us to unity but, if Dever’s action is to be followed, we should start excluding people from communion who believe differently that us on issues of eschatology, age of the earth, gender roles, etc. I find this deeply disturbing.

    No wonder people don’t get the faith sometimes. They’ll know we are Christians by…… our doctrinal wars, doesn’t seem to cut it.


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    Anonymous

    For you, the answers are simple. Don’t know and trust is a viable position.

    But, for many people, leaving the door open to condemnation to eternal torture for babies, is too difficult. There are some who could not follow a God that would condemn infants to hell. I know, this question has been brought up to me on a number of occasions. When I have used the answer you gave, it has given rise to the possibility that God would do such a thing.

    For those, we need to explore the issue within Scriptural parameters to provide some rational and potential answers.


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    I forgot about the communion thing with Ligon Duncan. But that was not a “personal attack”. that was stating a fact that happened and disgreeing with it.

    There has to be a poem somewhere for the bluebird tapping on your window!

    My step dad would be jealous of your bluebird relationship. He has squirrels that eat peanuts out of his hand every day. Then there are the rabbits that make their home in his shrubs. It is like Dr. Dolittle land over there. He gets much joy out of the animals that come around. He is 91. He has opened up the world of bird watching for me. We can sit in his breakfast room and watch the bird feeders and he can tell you exactly what kind of bird each one is. When the humming birds are finished, the doves come and eat what they spilled off the ground.


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    I don’t know that I’d agree with what Rob Bell teaches (haven’t read his book or really listened to any of his sermons), but I have watched the Bashir interview, and I don’t think it can serve as a solid source to point to any confusion, real or perceived, in Bell. The interview was an ambush, chock full of “Have you stopped beating your wife?” types of questions that would leave Bell with no reasonable way to respond, and I actually think Bell handled it pretty well. It was also pretty evident to me that Bashir had likely not read the book, and his goal was to attack the “idea” most were suggesting the book represents.

    Bell may be a wacko for all I know, but I do admire his courage in going where few before him have dared to go in saying “I don’t know”, and frankly, other than having faith that we’ll spend eternity with God through Christ, unless we’ve visited our eternity and come back to report on it, even though we “know”, we really don’t know what it’ll be like.

    It takes a LOT of courage to question the sacred cows of our own faith.

    One thing that I think the whole Bell issue has made pretty evident, though…The “gospel” of most of the Christian community these days seems extremely reliant on eternal torment’s existence, and regardless of where anyone stands on the aspect of eternal torment, any gospel reliant on it is a gospel that de-emphasizes Christ, and really isn’t much of a “gospel” at all. Using one thing to scare people toward another thing isn’t “good news”. It’s manipulation.


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    Babies do starve to death without proper food or water….this type of “theological speculation” is so irrelevant to the world and it’s immediate needs.

    In fact the whole notion of babies in hell is just twisted. Just another reason why I now find Christianity a useless expression that lacks moral courage.


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    @ Lewis: YES! [high five]

    @ Dee: oh, I absolutely agree about reading the OT through the lens (lenses?) of the NT. Am thinking that I didn’t explain myself very well.

    If you look into the OT concept of Sheol (which isn’t all that clearly explained, but it shows up in lots of the Psalms and elsewhere), it appears to be – like the ancient Greek Hades – the abode of the dead. Not hell – or heaven – as Christianity postulates, but simply the place where the dead go. (And I’m not talking about bones in the ground, as Muff was.)

    What I was trying to say is that I think we all have a lot of preconceptions about OT texts and that it can help to set those aside at times and just look at what is actually being communicated, as best we can tell. I can’t pretend to know what David’s answer would have been if someone had asked him to explain his views about the afterlife, but I’m willing to *guess* that what he was saying there is about his acceptance of his son’s death… i.e., I will die, too, and nobody comes back from the dead. (Or something like “I will rest with him one day, but he will never come back to me, in this life.”)

    Does that make sense?

    I have found that looking into some Jewish studies of texts like this one is very helpful, as the authors I’ve read are more focused on what x text says and how a concept might be developed throughout OT history and what we call the intratestamental period.

    Clearly, something is going on during and after the Exile, because by Jesus’ time, there are people who believe in an afterlife (represented by the Pharisees, but probably includes others, I’m guessing), people who don’t believe in any afterlife at all (the Saduceees, and, I’m guessing, probably others as well) + then add in the Essenes (extra-biblical) via the Dead Sea Scrolls. I think it is pretty clear that there was not one single agreed-upon belief about the afterlife in 1st century Palestine, and probably elsewhere, in other Jewish communities. (Like the one Saul/Paul came from, which was in what is now Turkey.)

    I dunno, I’ve always been the geeky type who likes to read footnotes in study Bibles + do cross-referencing because I think it’s fun! šŸ˜‰


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    btw, I’m loving all the animal and bird stories!

    If i had the money, I would buy a house with a few acres and have some pet pygmy goats, pet chickens, more bunnies, etc. etc. And I would birdwatch, too!

    Lydia, I really enjoyed the story about your dad and wish I could join you two for some birdwatching.


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    I hope it’s true that those with diminished mental capacity will go to heaven. I have a 12 year old son with autism and right now, I have no way of knowing if he really understands anything about God, Jesus, heaven or salvation!


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    ack! Intertestamental, not “intra.”

    i’m still catching up on my spelling. šŸ˜‰


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    also: http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

    and http://books.google.com/books?id=8OJCa6euw5gC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=sheol+in+jewish+thought&source=bl&ots=K_gcOdXxlc&sig=3JVVCi2wW_Sww8kc4QdMZK_0yzs&hl=en&ei=ZkjETZyCJ-jy0gHK2qCyCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=sheol%20in%20jewish%20thought&f=false

    are two of the better (though too-brief) things I’ve found while poking around on Google re. Sheol and Jewish beliefs about the afterlife.

    But those links are just for starters, and I admittedly have not done as much reading on these topics as I would like.

    One thing that I think is fascinating: even the Orthodox do not believe in eternal punishment, although they do believe in eternal life in “the world to come.” (For gentiles, too.)


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    Lewis:

    You are the first person I have heard say that Bell handled the interview well.

    Bashir was direct with Bell. Bell tried to get out of it by going to sentimentalism (“when I have a tear, God has a tear – or some such thing) or to a canned speech response.

    It was really pretty sad. Those things don’t work if you are not in front of fans, or if you don’t have complete control of the mic.

    It is very hard to answer questions from a hostile interviewer. That’s true for anyone.

    But it’s doubly hard if you are “in process” but are being asked specifics.

    One thing I’ll give you – he did not get angry and even forced a smile at the end. That’s show some discipline.


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    Dee:

    Thanks.

    But “don’t know” is the only answer to a question that we do not know the answer to.

    That’s not just me. That applies to all people.

    How can we know something we can’t know?

    We guess and extrapolate. I am fine with folks doing that so long as they admit to doing that.


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    Tina

    I have no doubt that God loves your son and you will see him in heaven. One of my dear pastor has a 36 year old son who is severely impaired and doesn’t even recognize his parents. His dad is absolutely convinced that he will be in heaven. I believe that the people who propagate the damnation of babies and impaired individuals to be as bad as the pagans who sacrificed babies to appease their God. Don’t you think one one minute over the eternal life of your son. Darn, just blew my cover on what I believe!


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    Anonymous

    How would you comfort Tina who commented just above you?


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    Anonymous,

    I think that Bell showed good restraint, as most heavy duty post modernists tend to get a little nasty when they’re challenged by way of painting their critics out to be bigoted. Bell didn’t do that but does get wide eyed, and the smile looked forced.

    I think it goes back to the way postmodernists think about ideas. You can hold several conflicting ideas at the same time, and those ideas are more about the medium than the message itself. You tell the meta-narrative, and if it the thing sounds clever, is pulled off in a smooth way, and the presenter is liked, the message is accepted. I saw that in Bell, and I don’t think he is interested in working his way to any logical conclusion. His purpose is to entertain meta-narratives. I bet that Bell didn’t even consider his own responses to be avoidant or circumlocutive. It’s about several, independent stories that have merit because they are someone’s truth, true merely because of the form and the person who thought of them.

    For people more like Bashir, they think that if you talk about a ping pong ball, a ping pong ball cannot be both a sphere and a cube. Books and religion are not just casual walks for the purpose of window shopping without wanting to buy something just for curiosity’s sake. Bell is just speculating about products, real and imaginary, but I don’t think he’s interested in buying anything as much as he’s interested in window shopping. If you’re shopping for ping pong balls, you go to where they sell them, find a suitable product within your price range, and you buy it. To Bashir and by analogy, Bell wrote a book about ping pong balls, but then Bell has no problem with writing about both spheres and cubes without seeing any apparent contradictions.

    My husband said of the interview, after thinking about it for a few minutes, that if Bell didn’t study how to handle questions to be evasive that someone on his staff must have trained him for this kind of interview. I don’t know that Bell thinks that way or that deeply, but I see what he means. I think that might just be Bell’s commitment to being sugary sweet to everyone, and if he’s not the sort to think logically, then he’s got a whole bag of tricks that help him do anything but give a straight answer. (DH still thinks that he’s trained, however.)


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    Lewis

    I believe we should be asking the hard questions. And I think many Christians couldn’t exegete their way out of a paper bag. Bell has done those people a service. They need to get off their duffs and understand their faith.

    Bell, on the other hand, appears to this blogger, to be writing his thoughts before he thinks through his thoughts. I bet ya that he changes his whole approach in the years to come or completely goes off reservation. He seems to be in an in between stage and I think he should have waited.


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    About that first clip of Bell talking to his church:

    Bell says that ā€œlove demands freedom,ā€ then says ā€œlove is never co-oped or coerced.ā€ He’s just made a really terrible couple of logical errors. What happens when love demands restraint? This is an oversimplification, and love and freedom are two very different principles. True love in the best sense does not coerce, but it can absolutely manipulate. Manipulation is not always a bad thing, but in our common culture, it carries a negative connotation. But ask a chiropractor or an osteopath or a dentist if manipulation is a bad thing? It is how they make their livings, and they do so to heal people and soothe pain.

    Don’t you love your children enough to teach them not to wear their pants inside out when they go off to school? I thought love was freedom and is not co-opted? What if love directs you to take the car keys out of the hand of your drunken loved one? What if it involves one parent leaving and taking a child away from their neglectful or abusive spouse? You can’t oversimplify things like that.

    He just builds on one logical fallacy here after another, and he contradicts himself, though his presentation sounds “honest” because he maintains composure (form – the medium). His response to Bashir does appeal to emotion at the end, a host of red herrings. Here again, Bell demonstrates how the media (presentation, tone, style, appearance) is more important than the message itself. It doesn’t matter what you say and if it makes sense. You just have to look good and sound sweet and gentle when you say it. People don’t necessarily remember what was said, but the speaker sounded pleasant. And then they buy more books.


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    Doubtful

    I understand your feeling. I believe God has placed in the human heart compassion that is being roundly ignored by those who would rather debate how many angels dance on the head of a pin. But, there are still some good guys out there. Thanks for your input.


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    Cindy

    Bell has not thought through the logical implications to his conclusions. In fact, I am not convinced he has many conclusions. I think he spoke of his struggles and then tried to make it sound like theological answers. I believe he is still in the questioning stage and is taking us all along for the ride.


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    Cindy K,

    Like Bell, you are making similar errors…spinal manipulation or manipulation of a loose tooth has nothing to do with, and is not in any way related to emotional manipulation. A tooth or a vertebra does not have any emotional awareness and is not sentient, on the other hand, human beings have both. To manipulate a person, in other words, to coerce, trick or emotionally blackmail a person into a certain type of behavior is never a good thing….even when done with noble intent or when trying to get a person to do what is “right”…the ends never justify the means.


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    hmm… I don’t think he is trying to make his questions sound like theological answers, but that’s just me.

    Someone (I wish i could remember who) has referred to this book as “this generations Great Divorce,” which makes some sense to me. (Especially given the fact that Bell refers to that piece by Lewis in the afterword.)

    My take is that the current book is unfinished, perhaps deliberately so. But I’m not saying I like that – just that I think that’s how it stands, for now.

    Last night I bought the MP3s to Bell’s “Flames of Heaven” sermon series, upon which the book is partly based. I’m generally not one for listening to audio only (doesn’t grab my attention), but maybe I’ll write up some notes and send them along whenever…


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    and… if someone thinks that only one of two answers is correct, then they rule out other possible answers.

    I don’t think this is an either/or thing – especially not in terms of the spectrum of belief in both the Eastern (Orthodox) and Western churches, but that’s just me. You all might be surprised by some of the basics of Orthodox belief on the afterlife! (They believe in final judgment, but they also believe in Hades as a holding place for all of the dead until final judgment, for one; they do not rule out the possibility that God might save all in the end… but they are upfront in saying that they don’t know the answer to that for certain. I like that position, myself.)


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    It’s really hard for me to see the Bashir “interview” with Bell as anything more than an ambush. I think the natural bias against the idea of Bell’s book in the majority of the Christian community works against a fair representation of the interview for a lot of people.

    Like I say, I know little of Bell, but Bashir lost ME, and I’d dare say anyone else who was expecting a reasonable and fair exchange, with that “Have you stopped beating your wife?” question about the situation in Japan right out of the gate. It was a manipulative, ambushing question, and he’d already predetermined FOR Bell that it had to be one of only two possible answers. Bashir lost me, integrity-wise, there. And frankly, Bell’s response to that ambush was graceful…Yet Bashir tried, once more, to read an answer INTO the equation FOR Bell. No integrity as an interviewer.

    You’ve got to cut Bell some slack when the person interrogating him breaches the trust right out of the gate. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the theology, or lack thereof, of Bell’s answers in the piece…he gracefully handled a situation that I probably wouldn’t have handled particularly gracefully. Any “deer in the headlights” vibe I got from him was him waiting for the other shoe to drop after the Japan ambush. My answer to the Japan question might have been, “If this interview is gonna be filled with this kinda cheese, you might want to go ahead and cue up the next segment.”

    dee…I agree that his book “appears” to have been written in a transitional phase (I put appears in quotes, because this is total assumption on my part – like I say, I haven’t read it), but barring that he isn’t steering people away from Christ (and I can’t speak to that issue), I kinda LIKE the idea of a prominent Christian writing about their own beliefs in transitional periods, their own “wrestling matches with God”, so to speak, because that’s where most Christians are – always learning, always growing, and sometimes the process of making the sausage is a messy one. While I’m not particularly drawn toward reading his book, if there was anything attractive about it to me, that would be it.


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    @ Lewis: preach it, bro! (Agreed completely on Bashir’s tactics, btw… I found them painful and embarrassing. “ambush” is a good description, imo.)

    As to the wrestling thing: I think that’s exactly what’s going on in Bell’s book, and i appreciate the fact that eh was willing to actually write about that – and expose himself to misunderstanding and ridicule in the process. N.T. Wright has said many of the same things, but nobody’s after him – probably because they find him hard to read compared to Bell. šŸ˜‰ (Just kidding, Cindy! : D))


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    Numo+Lewis

    Class assignment: You both need to listen to the 58 minute debate with Adrian Warnock-link is on Friday’s post. This was the most helpful in understanding Bell’s position. It is a respectful yet pointed debate. Warnock is more straight in the interview and that is where Bell’s weakness begins to show up.

    My only wish is that he said he was struggling. Sometimes I fear he comes across as having settled an issue when it is apparent he has only just begun. One think for sure is I am worn out. I have listened and listened and read and I can honestly say that Bell is somewhat of an enigma.


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    Numo
    Send along your thoughts and notes. I would be happy to post them if you wish.


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    Anonymous…In saying Bell handled the interview well, I’m not really speaking to the quality of the theology in his answers. I’m speaking to the integrity and approach of the two people involved. He could have answered Bashir’s first question with “Are you kidding me? What does that have to do with my book? Why are you trying to set a trap for me before we even begin?”

    Maybe he SHOULD have responded that way. I don’t know. He’d sell just as many books taking that tact.


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    I can honestly say that Bell is somewhat of an enigma.

    dee…That’s the sense I get from a lot of people concerning him. You’re right – it would benefit him, and whatever good he hopes to accomplish (giving him the benefit of the doubt) to make it clear where he’s at, or that he hasn’t “arrived” at particular conclusions. I think he did in the Bashir interview, but, like I say, that, along with the internet discussion of him, is the extent of my knowledge there.


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    Karlton,

    I quite respectfully disagree with you, and I do so as a forensic point. Think of it as the rules in a court. If I go from state to state or nation to nation, certain things are declared legal to do in court and certain rights are laid out to citizens in court. You are talking about how things are defined in a different court than the one in which I find myself with Bell.

    If a person claims that they are a Christian, that they accept the Bible as truth, then those who do accept it agree to be true to it. If you don’t accept the Bible, just imagine that we do as a point of argument. Bell and I, presumably, both accept the Bible as inspired truth.

    There are things spelled out clearly and plainly in that Book. The matter of where babies go when they die is not one of those clear and plain things that are spelled out. Hell is clearly defined, just based on the words of Jesus alone, something that Bell professes to be of great importance.

    I have been taught that the Bible is the objective standard. Merely as a point of what the Bible says, I believe very much that Bell is evasive and that I am not.

    If I were talking to you as an atheist, knowing that we do not agree on the authority of Scripture, I would not be able to make these same claims. We have not agreed upon the same premise and presuppositions and disagree about how truth is defined. Supposedly and presumably, Bell makes the claim that he and I do share at least some basic premises, so it is on that point as a forensic matter that I challenge him.


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    I have not yet seen anyone address the issue of where babies and young children actually go when they die. I don’t think that you can understand Calvin on the matter unless you look at why they first made the assertions. (I don’t know if Luther specifically talked about the eternal fate of infants and children.) I also don’t think that you can really understand Calvin and the five points until you also consider the same. You’ve got to consider that what these men wrote was a response to the abuses and abusive doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church at that time.

    When your baby was born, you had to hope that it didn’t die before you could take the child to be christened. I was taught that before your child was even taken into the holy sanctuary, some priest stood outside to cast the devil or the evil out of the baby. Then, the child was considered pure. It was a way of controlling people which made them dependent on the church. I understand that the initial impetus for the debate came from the distortions of the Gospel as opposed to the preeminence of the need for the discussion apart from those distortions. Not that the church would not have gotten around to the discussion eventually.

    It’s an important discussion, not because Calvin was, in part, addressing the abuses of Catholicism and the concerns that parents had. These doctrines set parents up for torment, and I understand that many of the Reformers had to deal with this issue. So it did not come out of a vacuum in order to play God on the part of people like Calvin.

    He also addressed the extreme freewillism that prevailed as a consequence of Catholicism. I don’t understand exactly why the five points are taught and people fail to mention that the Synod of Dort drafted as a response to the Remonstrance of 1610. Personally, I find it interesting that so much religion has been built all around what is, in its origin, a statement of protest. I don’t think that this is ever the best thing to do, choosing such as a guiding summary of what one stands for. It’s describing who you are based on someone else’s error, and though it is subtle, I think it is significant. Christ crucified is included in there, but it is not the central focus, because the concept defended God’s sovereignty as opposed to Christ’s sacrifice.

    That’s not to say that there is not value in the principles or that they are untrue (as I espouse them to a large extent, though I don’t use them to order my life in the way that most Calvinists do today). It think that it does, though, promote a degree of exclusion and separatism that threatens to and often does eclipse the Gospel itself. Some people are Calvinists (or insert any other group like Baptist or whatever) before they are Christians. And I think that predisposes a group to some inherent pitfalls, primarily the fifth characteristic of spiritual abuse which concerns pet doctrines. Even God’s sovereignty can become a pet doctrine that can subtly divert you from your intended course.


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    Concerning the concept of hell in general: Personally, I have a problem with saying there is no hell, or trying to make the concept of it less, well, hellish. If it were up to me, I would have planned something different than hell, and what I might plan today will look very different from what I might devise as a plan twenty years from now.

    I don’t get any pleasure out of the concept hell, but I also don’t look at it as some kind of garbage can catch all place for really evil people. I understand it more in terms of the complete absence of God’s presence and goodness, more of a function of the opposite of God’s holiness. It isn’t so much a place where God either takes joy in or is indifferent about destruction but is about God being God ā€“ and He is holy. Hell is the opposite of where and what God is. It is the opposite of holiness and the place of it. Most things are not pure black and white, but in terms of God’s holiness, they are. And forensically, the only reason we are considered holy is through the Blood of Jesus.

    Why do I accept it? Well, looking at only the red letters in the Bible, Jesus taught it several ways, beyond just references to certain words for hell only. I think that you can debate whether sheol and ge’henna are the same, but… I don’t think that any of that erases the many ways Jesus Himself describes the place for those who ā€œmiss the markā€ who discover that they are not born of the Spirit in a final reckoning in an existence to come when each soul faces God. I count some 15 references, and I don’t think that I did a comprehensive search.

    If you don’t consider the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth or outer darkness, there are still other compelling verses. Most of these references are in Matthew. In one weeping/gnashing reference in Chapter 13, it adds ā€œfurnace of fire.ā€ Mark 9 talks of fire that cannot be quenched where the worm never dies, right after it says that those who hurt His little ones would be better to be saddled with a millstone and dropped into the sea. Matthew 25 talks about eternal fire and everlasting punishment. It’s specific, and it goes beyond just the use of the word ge’henna or hades and what that might mean. And then there is Luke 16’s discussion of Lazarus and the nameless rich man which is quite a compelling description. Now, this is not red letter stuff, but Revelation 20:15 says that those not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life get delivered up from whatever you want to call the place where the dead are kept, and they get thrown into the lake of fire after they face judgment. Revelation 20:10 describes the lake of fire as a place where there is torment, day and night, forever and ever.

    I don’t understand how all of that can be explained away in any way other than to say that the Gospels are not the inspired Word of God. I am more consumed with living my life in a way so that, according to Matthew 25, I never hear Jesus say that I left him alone, naked or in prison without help and comfort because I love Him. It isn’t because I fear eternal hell but I am more contrite and broken by the idea that I might abandon Jesus who loves me. I found this morning that I’d actually forgotten that this passage had such a specific description of hell. I don’t accept hell because I like it or because I feel like if someone else gets grace, there is less there for me. I have to accept it because it is a part of what Jesus said, and if I reject that much, I would have to reject all of it. Here I stand, God help me.


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    Karlton,

    You’ll have to go back through the comments under the O’Reily Factor post. I called you “delightful” there, but I also disagree with your tree climbing duck analogy. I think that you probably missed it.

    I understand that you want to demonstrate that as an atheist, you see a lot of holes in Christianity. That is fine. You can call me a fool for believing the scandal of the Gospel any time. I respect that and I don’t think that it’s out of any kind of malice that you would, but I get the sense that it is out of a genuinely kind desire to see people think about their beliefs. I just wanted to again state that I get what you’re saying.

    In these discussions of things like a specific doctrine, I get your point that you see me as just as hypocritical as Bell, because from where you’re standing, we both seem deluded or equally confused, just in different ways. But I’m coming at it from a vantage that I understand, by virtue of some statements Bell has made, to be closer to where Bell is standing, just as I am with many who comment here.


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    Cindy K.

    I think you misunderstood my post. I was only commenting on your statement that “manipulation” could be a good thing where you used spinal manipulation and dental manipulation as examples. It was not a “biblical” or “theological” comment, I just felt that the comparison was inappropriate because manipulating a “thing” is not comparable with manipulating a human being.


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    Karlton,

    I’m sorry that I misunderstood.

    Perhaps I should have used an example of how parents do manipulate their kids in order to teach them or to get them to do the right thing. The word carries a negative connotation, but at the root of the word. Negative and positive reinforcement are tools of manipulation, but they are used by parents, teachers, and employers, for that matter, to encourage good behavior. Clever ways of doing things are not necessarily unscrupulous ways that abuse or misuse others. But the common parlance of the word has given the word itself a bad definition and has changed its meaning over time.


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    And while Adrian Warnock spends his time debating Bell, he still continues to gush praise for CJ Mahaney and his gang of spineless pastors. I guess it’s more important to speculate about the afterlife (especially Hell) than to confront sex abusers, pedophiles, and ignore the children who are now in a living hell. Thanks for all you do Adrian……again, no moral courage…..sorry to rant, I do appreciate what you’re doing here.


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    I can well believe you’re tired, Dee.

    And I’ve been dumping links here – not sure if that helps.

    But I can say for sure that I think N.T. Wright is a lot closer to the Eastern Orthdox position on some things than I would have guessed, and that Bell is following his lead.


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    @ Dee again: thanks for the offer re. notes and such. it’s probably going to be a while before I get around to listenin; not sure if that’s helpful to you or not.


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    Doubtful

    i am no fan of SGM and the Calvinistas as you know. I merely used the video as a means of illuminating the Bell discussion in a more in depth way. It was in that debate that I saw Bell’s thinking and style emerge (so to speak) in a clearer fashion.

    I deplore the way SGM, the SBC and other groups have handled the pedophile situations. It is despicable and it will continue to dog them until they make a stand. I agree that they are all a bunch of gutless wusses who spend far to much time pontificating about their authority and show, in their actions, why they do not deserve respect.

    I plan to do something about the situation in my own area and will write about it once it is underway. I may be a “gullible and easily deceived” woman (according to these weenies) but I have more strength and clarity than these wusses who hide behind the law and locked doors and pulpits.


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    Numo

    Take your time-it is all in God’s good hands.


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    Lewis:

    I see what you mean and why you think Bell handled the interview well. Thanks for the clarification.

    I agree that Bashir was aggressive. But being the logical short, if Bashir were to ask me about the Japan situation, I would have said, God remains both all loving and all powerful. Bell did get around to it with the “unresolved paradox” statement, which was the strong point in the interview.


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    Cindy K:

    GREAT analysis about Bell.

    Bell is apparently a guy who can talk about cubed ping pong balls.

    I shudder to think what this means for propositional truth in the Christian community. I am optimistic that this will not take off in any big way. That was tried in the first century, and failed then, too.

    Bell may be migrating to incorporate some eastern mysticism with Christianity. He is not there yet, obviously, but I suspect he could go this way.


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    Dee:

    As regards Tina, first I would not say or entertain that God sends babies to hell.

    I would speak about the goodness and love of God. That is what is called for in the moment of any death. I would not speak of damnation at any funeral or in the face of any death to someone who came to me.

    But I would restrain myself from creating doctrines and saying things that have not been promised to us.

    I would say that we have a loving and just God who has promised to all that love him that they will inherit eternal life. And that we hope and pray that one day we will all be rejoined with our loved ones in heaven in the presence of God.

    I think that I would be promising too much if I said anything more than that – whether it is a baby or an adult who passed.

    To do so, in my book, is playing God.

    We cannot judge the hearts and minds of people, even professing people. We leave it all up to God, who is loving and just.

    We just cannot say more than we know. But what we know is plenty comforting.

    Think of all the great things Jesus said about children. I would recite every one of them with confidence.


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    @ Dee: Thank you!

    Of course, there may not be much, if anything, in those sermons that isn’t in his book, in which case…


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    RE: dee says @ Fri, May 06 2011 at 08:02 am,

    “…Not bad for a drunken old sot…”
    Muff celebrates 15 yrs. sobriety this month. Do me a favor will ya? The next time you and your hubs go to a nice Italian joint with good food, enyjoy a good Chianti & and hoist a couple of em’ for ol’ Muff.


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    RE: Cindy K @ Fri, May 06 2011 at 07:56 pm,

    Whether we (believers) want to admit to it or not, we all practice some form of selective literalism. In my own belief system, Biblical literalism extends into, but is not exclusively confined to the tenets of the Creeds.

    My own selective literalism is about as contradictory and speculative as one can get. For example, I believe that God contravened the laws of mass & inertia with no gradual slow-down on the day the earth stood still (Joshua 10:12-14). I also believe that the great darkness mentioned in the synoptic Gospels when Yeshua was crucified was a literal and global event, just as I believe that the Noadic flood was also a literal and global event.

    But when it comes to the alleged literalness of Yeshuaā€™s teaching on corporeal torment for the damned, I choose the parabolic option for those passages of NT scripture.


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    Which means NO, I DO NOT believe in a literal hell.


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    Hi Muff

    A toast to your 15 years. That is a feat worth celebrating. You go!!! I used to work in an alcoholic hospital. My husbands father made 10 years before he passed away. I have some awesome memories or working in that facility. I made some wonderful friends among the patients who have gone on to much success.

    Could you explain your view on life after death for the Osama Bin Ladens of the world? Are you an annihilationist or something else? How do you view the punishment from the fallen angels-Satan and gang? Are they punished or annihilated or…? This is meant out of curiosity. I enjoy contemplating the views of my favorite readers.

    Also, I plan to write on the thinking of annihilationism next week along with another view which proposes levels of hell, similar to the rewards that some will receive in heaven. I will be interested in your perspectives on these as well.


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    Anonymous

    So, do you leave yourself open to the possibility that God could eternally torment those who have died as babies? That would seem to be the case.

    In case you think I am being a pain in the butt, I am not meaning to be. I have been asked this very question by more than a few people. I am always curious how Christian respond to this difficult question.

    Also, do you think that Muff has a point when he says that we can look in our hearts for the answer to that? Could it be that, in being created in the image of God, He has placed certain truths in our being?


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    Dee,

    Sorry for all you eye for an eye people out there, but the Osama bin Laden’s, Genghis Khan’s and Joseph Mengele’s of the world are simply gone…a good thing for those of us that remain, but if you are looking for some justice after death, well…it doesn’t seem that there is any…death, is just that..the end of existence.

    But, for the benefit of those who do believe in a biblical God…I would love to hear how you explain the angelic rebellion. I mean, here we have, a group of supernatural beings with the emotional and intellectual awareness to understand, far better than we can, the concept of an omnipotent God, who have spent countless eons enjoying His presence, knowing fully, as Paul wrote in Corinthians, His love and grace who decided one day to wage war on God and those who follow Him. Please, assuming that angels cannot go mentally insane, explain that action. On what planet, in what universe,can that action have even a minutia of rationality or common sense associated with it.


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    Dee:

    You are not a pain in the butt. You have never been a pain in the butt because you do such a good job demonstrating your temperament in your questions.

    But (and I am trying not to pain in the butt) the question is so slanted. I know why it is, because you are trying to get to the essence of what a person rules in or out.

    But there are lots of things, if worded harshly, but accurately, would make us blanch.

    For example – “So do you leave yourself open to the possibility that God will torment eternally my dear grandmother who was the sweetest woman ever, and who suffered an injury that left her paralzyed while helping people escape a Nazi concentration camp simply because she was Jewish and not a Christian?”

    Who would answer that?

    We are given glimpses into heaven by the revelation of God as found in the Bible.

    There is no verse that shows God torments babies. We don’t even know how age will be handled in the hereafter.

    So, I would answer your question – I leave myself open to only what God has revealed to us. What part of the Bible are you asking me to deny?

    He is just and loving. He tells us how we can have eternal life. To those who cannot appropriate those promises (infants, mentally disabled) we are simply not told how He handles that. I am not God and would find it the greatest offense to start guessing about these things to disappoint or please you. Because then I would be playing God.

    That’s the best answer I can give you.

    And I am NOT trying to be a pain in your butt.


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    A thought…

    If babies go straight to heaven, then the kindest thing a person can do in this life would be to murder as many babies as he or she possibly can and thus guarantee them a life of eternal bliss. Certainly much better then the few who would make it on their own, percentage wise.


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    Anonymous,

    I’m confused. Maybe you can help me to understand your position better. In one breath you say that God is just and fair, and in another, you won’t deign to say whether or not it’s fair that somebody’s dear bubbie and a holocaust survivor who put her life on the line for others to boot is destined for the infernal regions because she’s not a Christian.

    If you have a conscience, its voice within you will tell you it’s monstrously untrue that a doer of the law cannot be righteous before God (Romans 2:12-16)


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    Hi Karl

    I thought about your questions last night. As always you keep me on my toes.

    Eye of an eye, hmmm? Why bother to punish criminals in this society? We should just forgive them and let them go on. Just arm the citizenry and set all phasers on stun. A doctor in Raleigh was just sentenced to 3-5 years for driving drunk and killing a young ballerina. Why bother to send him to jail? Just treat his alcohol problem and let him continue. Remove his driver’s license and make his wife drive him to work. Why all this retributive stuff?

    There is an innate sense of longing for justice meted out for a crime. Few people in this world believe that a criminal should go free. The weakness inherent in atheism is that everyone meets the same end. Hitler dies, Mother Theresa dies and all is well? There is no hope then that Hitler is punished for his crimes against humanity. They both just rot in the ground.

    Frankly, Hitler had a pretty good run of it up until the end. He was adored, had troops and people hanging onto his every word and even, for sometime, had some of the liberal elite of England and Europe wining and dining him.

    Karl, there is something in all of us that longs for justice. I believe it is put there by God. The atheist would say it is part of some evolutionary meme meant for tribal survival.

    As for the angels thing, I can only imagine they had free will as well. I know of men who have beautiful, wonderful wives who suddenly take off and have an affair and leave their home, only to regret it many years down the road. It was obvious to all around them that they were making a mistake but the grass is always greener…


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    Karl

    Actually, that is the exact question that Rob Bell raised. The only answer to that is that it is not in our purview to decided to end a life in order to guarantee life in the next.


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    Dee,

    To the latter point…while it may not be in our “purview” to decide to end a life, wouldn’t it still be the “right” thing to do, to sacrifice our life of a blissful eternity in order to save millions of others. To hide behind saying it isn’t your responsibility or that you weren’t given that level of authority is a bit cowardly..isn’t it? After all if you truly believe that heaven is the ultimately good place to be, and if you believe that all infants go there if they die before some vague age of accountability, and if you believe that the vast majority of adults do not go there if they die later on in years, then whether you have been given that responsibility or not, you are morally responsible for doing everything you can to get as many as you can into heaven.

    You answer on angels was pretty light, wouldn’t you say. I mean why would they rebel against a loving, compassionate God? They had “free will”, so how was “man” different…and does that mean that God simply chose not to redeem the angels out of some sense of vengeance or maybe lack of concern…if there was no “devil” yet (lucifer) to tempt the angels, and God made the angels, then even more so than with man, God must have made them faulty…remember they too lived in a perfect environment, created by a perfect God…the the question of how sin or rebellion entered the world is even more difficult to explain.


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    @ Lydia: not sure if this is the right thread re. the mention of Early Church Fathers, but I’ll put it here anyway – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Fathers

    Luther and all the other Reformers are about 1,000+ years too late to qualify. šŸ˜‰

    @ Cindy K: I wonder… as someone who grew up in a church that actively baptizes infants (Lutheran), I do know that the parents and godparents (and any other sponsors present at a baby’s baptism) are asked – to answer on behalf of the infant – if they renounce the devil and all his works. (Obviously, the answer is supposed to be “yes.”)

    Now, I don’t know what specific questions and responses and prayers were used for infant baptism in the medieval Catholic church, but I suspect that they were probably more along the lines I just mentioned than anything having to do with exorcism. (Though no doubt some people might have equated this with exorcism, but to me, it seems like an entirely different kettle of fish.)


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    Karlton,

    I think that when you look at babies going to heaven as an act of God’s justice, then you still have to consider that it is He who makes those decisions. He is just with the babies, but he is also just with us. His lovingkindness is not separate from His holiness, so while some assume that babies do go to heaven because of His justice, we as people also have to answer for what we do. It is wrong to kill, and like that infant will face the just God, we do to. A just God is not going to let us get away with hurting babies and breaking the heart of parents, and ultimately harming society. (And there are plenty of illnesses and accidents that do this anyway.)

    If you talk about the idea that it’s better to kill babies to send then to heaven and pure bliss, the flip side of that will be that the perpetrator will also answer to both God and society for their wrongs — the harm that they caused on this side of the veil than hangs between the physical and the metaphysical realms. There’s also the idea that we are to honor our own gift of life, because society will generally require the life of a zealot child killer, both as justice and as a safety measure. Its not a pragmatic venture if the consequences for taking life to save it will demand your own life. If you are a Christian who thinks there is virtue in ending the physical life of babies to save them, you will also give an account for your own life — a life that you also have to honor, protect and preserve, too.

    But we’re talking across different assumptions about whether there is a God and an afterlife and things metaphysical (more on the etherial/eternal meaning as opposed to the philosophical).

    On the issue of the angels, I don’t know that we are really told enough to figure all that out. Formulating doctrine is much like the scientific method. You get your data, and you test it. You can’t say that it says or means any more or doesn’t mean what the data indicates. It’s the same with these Scriptures. We don’t know enough about it to say either way.

    I think the other disconnect we probably have on this issue is whether you think that man is lesser than God. We’re finite, stuck in time for the time being, and we can’t see from God’s perspective. When we get liberated from this life, something that I think is God’s prerogative to choose when and how, we will know and see more. Until then we’re stuck. I wait with joy as I anticipate the day in space and time when God makes things right, whatever that involves, after this life. I understand that I will have better perspective — when I see Jesus and am changed, for I shall see Him as He is.

    But I think that, even like these Calvinistas, we can assume too much and we pretend to be able to see from God’s perspective. To state that God must flawed because he made beings that chose to rebel and be evil, you have to make the assumption that you can see from God’s viewpoint, or perhaps even from that of the angels. If you think that you are on even par with God, you can judge Him. Van Til said that we are like small children that crawl up on to the lap of our Creator, and we slap Him in the face.

    This is sort of the flip-side of what you’re talking about which results from thinking you can see from God’s perspective. Guys like Calvinista Doug Wilson who teaches that Christians should only support the pro life effort for Christians because the babies in the wombs of non-Christians — he thinks — are guaranteed to be non-elect. He says that we are defeating God’s purpose by trying to save the unborn babies of heathens. Somehow he knows this, and he believes that salvation comes through church membership which is a secondary thing to faith, belief and confession. He says that we should say “Amen” when heathens rush out to kill their babies. He thinks that it honors God because he says God hates the non-elect.

    From Doug Wilson’s “Mother Kirk” book:
    http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Kirk-Essays-Practical-Ecclesiology/dp/1885767722/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204324870&sr=8-1

    Moving Beyond Pro-Life (sub-title in Chapter X)

    Pgs 245 ā€“ 246

    In the hard providence of God, He sometimes allows His enemies to destroy themselves. When the pagan nations outside Israel sent their children into the fires of Molech, Israel wasnā€™t called to blockade the fire and rescue the babies. And when Israelite kings followed Molech, the people were not commanded to revolt. Israelites were to make sure they didnā€™t kill their own children (Lev 20), but God-haters were left to destroy themselves (Is 57:13; Jer 5:19; 6:19, 21)ā€¦

    Let them kill themselves, for ā€œGod gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fittingā€ (Rom 1:28), even ā€œmurderā€ (Rom 1:29). This is the wrath of Godā€¦

    [W]e must take up arms to defend Godā€™s covenant children (Neh 4:14). But we may not use violence until they come after authorities or to defend the lives of Molech worshipers and their children. This is far more secular than biblical.

    We must remember the antithesis. Scripture always remembers that deep chasm between those seeking to honor God and those who hate him. But this has not been a part of contemporary pro-life rhetoric.

    The unbelievers are destroying themselves in a frenzy of child-murder and fruitless sodomy. Let them go. These are hard words. But Christians must learn to say them. Paul taught us that the children of God-haters are ā€œfoulā€ or ā€œuncleanā€ (I Cor 7:14). We must come to the day when the Christian can truly rebuke those who are ā€œwithout natural affectionā€ and say ā€“ ā€œThe ancient psalmist blessed the one who would take little ones of those who hate God and dash them on the rock (Ps 137:9). We see by your pro-abortion position that you clearly agree with this kind of treatment. And we in the Church, in a way you cannot truly comprehend, are now prepared to say amen.ā€


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    numo,

    I take it that you understand me to have claimed that all people who practice infant baptism today and throughout history have always required some session of deliverance and exorcism before baptism?

    I was not talking about all infant baptism and never stated that about any group other than the RCC before the Reformation. I’m not sure why you understood why I wrote to mean that, if indeed you did. ??? I’m confused.

    I was talking about the abuses in the Catholic Church, one of the many things that spurned on the Reformation.

    My first knowledge of this came through a passage in an historical fiction book about Tyndale or Wycliffe (I can’t remember who as it has been decades since I read this) where they deal with this doctrine. The protagonist counsels parents whose infant’s died were tortured and harassed by the RCC, believing that their babies died and went to hell. They believed it was their fault for not getting their children christened in time. I also heard it from the Vatican II nun (Sister Marie Michelle at Gwynedd Mercy in PA) who taught my Theology of Suffering class which dealt with death, dying and the problem of evil. And I’ve heard the same thing from my husband who was raised as a Lutheran, and this was also his understanding. We talked about it because he struggled with whether he should get immersed as an adult believer.

    It is my best understanding that Calvin wrote the things that he did because of the climate created by these abuses and these practices before the Reformation.


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    Karlton,

    Can I ask what you believe about the nature of man in regard to the metaphysical? There are miracles and things that we can’t explain. What is going on when the phone rings after you just were thinking that the person on the phone was going to call? Is it all due to an overstimulated temporal lobe in the brain, something like Michael Persinger does with his God Helmet? Everything can be explained by some purely physical cause?

    Ultimately, people need to explain why water runs uphill, and many turn to other explanations that are more metaphysical. Jung answered many questions by way of saying there was a collective unconscious. David Hawkins talks about “attractor fields” which were the metaphysical forces that caused life to form. Carl Sagan believed in extra-terrestrials, hoping to find the missing answers through galactic panspermia. And ten years ago I cancelled my subscription to Science News which I’d read for 20 years because most all of the articles were about the metaphysical stuff that physicists started talking about. Half of the articles were about stuff that sounded as weird as Pentecostals (one of which I was) who thought that everything was due to some interfering spiritual force.

    I keep wondering what it is you think of the stuff that we cannot explain empirically?


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    Cindy K.

    Quite simply…we “may” be able to explain it in the future with more information, we may “never” be able to explain it, because the required information has been lost, is unavailable or we will never, as a species, have the technology or time required to make a proper assessment. It does NOT mean that we get to fill in the gaps with whatever fairy tale most appeals to us. We need to realize that some things are, at the present unknown, and that’s OK, we just need to accept them as “unknown”. Because we do not have an explanation for something does NOT imply a supernatural cause…period.

    Secondly, the short answer is, yes, I hold to a deterministic philosophy, not only in matters of external events but also in terms of what we perceive as “free choice”, our thought process and self-awareness.
    (Note to Dee: see I can keep it short!)

    Thirdly,
    As I said previously, if a person really believes that all children go on to live eternally in a blissful paradise and that a large percentage of adults end up in a fiery pit of eternal torture and torment, then regardless of what happens to me, I have an obligation to take whatever action is needed to save as many infants as possible, if I really do have love and compassion for them, as everyone claims. To say God wouldn’t allow it, flies absurdly in the face of all the acts of terror that occur without God’s intervention on a daily basis.


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    Karlton,

    Your question about Angels is an excellent one…I saw a couple others throw some answers out there but I wanted to add a couple thoughts. A few notes:

    The bible doesn’t say all that much about Angels…so all we can do is guess. We don’t know when they were created, how they live, how much interaction they actually had with the Trinity etc. But we do know:

    1. There is a hierarchy among the Angels, and Lucifer was at the top with a couple others.
    2. The motive behind Lucifer’s rebellion was pride.

    Lucifer somehow got to the point where his own self love was greater than his desire to obey God. When you think about it, its somewhat understandable how he could have been disgruntled with his job. Hebrews 1: 14 says “Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?” Angels are servants…and to be a servant you have to humble, and put others ahead of yourself. For a being as powerful and beautiful as Lucifer, this could have seemed humiliating, and been the catalyst for his hatred of God.

    How he got to that point we have absolutely no way of knowing. But somehow he got to the point that he hated God, and was drunk enough in his own self love that he could not just grin and bear it. So I think its possible that he knew very well he wouldn’t win, but was proud enough to die trying.

    I think the better answer though, is that he really thought he could win. Obviously to think this, he would had to have not really understood the omnipotence of God, or believed it. He would have had to have thought there was some weakness (maybe taking advantage of God’s love) that he could exploit. He tried desperately to get Jesus to sin…suppose he had succeeded? If one member of the Trinity had sinned…what in the world would have happened. Impossible to say, but it would have been a great victory for Lucifer. Maybe he thought it would be the game changer. It is clear that angels were not privy to God’s plan for salvation ahead of time any more than we were, and Lucifer may have thought that he had ruined God’s plan initially when he caused God’s creatures to rebel against him, and had no idea what the cross was going to accomplish.

    So again, we don’t really know, but pride is blinding and Lucifer was overcome with it. Whether he knew he was sealing his own fate or not, I think its understandable that he fell. The Israelites saw God part the Red Sea and were faithless and rebellious very shortly afterword. I believe God is omnipotent, loving and kind and has chosen to save me…and I still sin against him regularly. Seeing the power of God, and believing in him doesn’t inoculate us from pride.


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    Joey,

    Sinning is not the same as waging war…even if somehow we can spin the story so Lucifer’s rebellion seems plausible, you then have to explain how 1/3 of the heavenly host followed him. Let’s face it, it’s no more than a nice story with a moral. Once you try to turn it into reality there are just too many obvious problems and incongruities that need resolved….although, out of necessity, Christians have become very good at “spin”…evolution at work I guess šŸ™‚


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    Karlton,

    Once he “fell” what else was he going to do but wage war? Unlike humans, he wasn’t given the opportunity to repent. The only reason our sinning doesn’t turn into all out war against God is because we are given the opportunity to join his side. If not for that, what choice would we have after sinning?

    For Satan, it is simply a matter of going down swinging, whether or not he thought he had a chance. And the 1/3 that followed were probably those he was the leader of, and joined him in his pride. I am not sure that there are incongruities, unless you have an insight into the nature of Angels?


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    Joey,

    you said “The only reason our sinning doesnā€™t turn into all out war against God is because we are given the opportunity to join his side”. People “sin” all the time .. one doesn’t imply the other.

    Secondly, from a theological standpoint….If angels did not have a sinful nature (i.e. Adam), then what was the impetus for rebellion. If God created Angels, and God created them without imperfection and they never saw, or experienced pride (where would it exist in heaven?), then where did this evil “pride” come from…seems God must have created Lucifer flawed in some manner… If angels can rebel against God without having a sin nature…then what reason is there to believe that humans, after they die and go to heaven won’t also rebel against God just like the angels….a little consistency please.


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    @ Cindy K: No worries… I was responding to what you said *many* posts above this one (but unfortunately did not quote; it was late and I was rushing to get to bed)…

    When your baby was born, you had to hope that it didnā€™t die before you could take the child to be christened. I was taught that before your child was even taken into the holy sanctuary, some priest stood outside to cast the devil or the evil out of the baby. Then, the child was considered pure. [bolding mine for emphasis]

    I don’t doubt that this might have gone on, for a while, at least, but is there a source you can point me to for verification? (Am not trying to bug you; I would like to learn more.)

    Certainly there *was* a lot of fear – and superstition – in Europe (and I think there still is a lot of the latter, especially in more places). I have to wonder if the idea of renouncing the devil and all his works (for baptism) didn’t get “translated,” somehow, into a belief that the devil was somehow “in” a baby?

    re. fears of babies ending up in hell and infant baptism, agreed there… I have not studied that like you have, but I know it was the case, and I think maybe that is still true in some parts of the world. (Even though the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t teach that anymore.)

    My take is that we are dealing with both official doctrine/dogma *and* how it was perceived and taught + strains of folk religion and superstition. Given high infant mortality rates (plus horrific experiences like the Black Death), I can see why fears would mushroom, regardless of what was (or wasn’t taught) by the Western church at that time.


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    oops! “more remote and impoverished places,” not “more places.”


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    Karlton,

    Adam was not created with a sinful nature either. All sin entered the world through the one man, Adam…but it entered at the fall, not before, when he was walking and talking with God. So Lucifer and Adam both were created without sin, without imperfection…and both chose to rebel. In Adam’s case, he believed a lie, rather than believing God, so the impetus didn’t originate in himself…he was faced with a decision and chose pride.

    With Lucifer he also faced a decision, obey God and serve humanity, or serve himself…and he chose himself. Along with the 1/3.

    The difference in heaven will be the fact that we will be glorified. Our bodies won’t betray us, our minds won’t buy into lies, and the inclinations of our hearts will be glorify God always. This is beyond what Adam experienced, even in his sinless state.

    At least, that’s the Christian spin.


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    Joey,

    Where does it say that “glorified” bodies won’t buy into lies, or was that just convenient? šŸ™‚
    So, God made the angels knowing full well that he made some of them to fall and then condemns them for being what He made them…anyway you look at it, that’s what it comes down to…

    What is “perfection” anyways? Can two of the same thing be different and yet both be perfect or is there only one way to be perfect? Was man or the angels created as “perfect” beings? Can the idea or possibility of corruption exist in something that is by definition “perfect”. Can a perfect being create something which has imperfections?


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    That was a deduction I make from the fact that the bible says there will be no sinning…if there is no sinning then our minds won’t be taken in by lies…but you are right, that statement is not directly pulled from Scripture.

    Depending on if you are Arminian, Calvinistic etc, the answer to your second statement will vary. I would argue that God did create Angles and humans knowing exactly what would happen, but that he did not create them in such a way that they ‘had’ to fall. In other words, the nature of the beings he created were not such that they were determined, apart from their own volition, to fall. We were created ‘perfect’, meaning without sin, and without a sin nature, and the possibility of corruption isn’t a design flaw unless the ability to choose is a flaw.

    Now, you will say, shouldn’t a perfect God have been able to create being with that ability to choose, but with nature’s such that they would always choose obedience? And I would say either the choice is legit or not, so if you are going to create a being who honestly chooses to obey over rebellion, their nature has to be such that it ‘could’ choose rebellion.


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    Karlton,

    Indulge me if you will, a guess conjecture on why Lucifer incited rebellion against God. The details are sketchy and Scripture really doesnā€™t have a whole lot to say about it other than the fact that heā€™s portrayed in the narratives as the adversary of both God & humans. We donā€™t have much to go on fact wise, the best we can do is by inference only.

    We know from the Job chap. 38 narrative that all the sons of God shouted for joy at the creation, so I think itā€™s safe to say that Lucifer participated in the thunderous hooting applause too. We are also told in Ezekiel chap. 28 (by way of allegorical rant against the king of Tyrus) that Lucifer was perfect in all respects until uncoolness was found in him.

    But this is all academic, the real question is how could such a perfect being who had it all, throw it all away? And you are right, it simply wonā€™t wash in the light of reason and common sense as we know it unless reason was somehow swept away by madness, not all at once, but by degrees. As Dee has pointed out, itā€™s never enough, thereā€™s always something more to be had, did you see how Tom Brady sulked off the field when it became apparent he wasnā€™t gonna get a 4th Super Bowl Ring?

    At the dawn of creation, it was humankind that was crowned with glory and dominion, not the best and brightest of the angels, even though we are a little lower as created beings (Psalm 8). I donā€™t think that one can say that angels are not subject to the same foibles (envy, greed, hunger for power) that we are. Neecha (Nietzsche) wrote: ā€œā€¦This world is the will to power–and nothing besidesā€¦ā€ Unlike Kant, Neecha saw this world the way it is, not the way he would have liked it to have been.

    In Isaiah chap. 14 we read that that Lucifer wanted an exalted throne and status beyond his station. Some have said that he wanted to be God, I disagree with this because he was smart enough to know that he could never be top Dawg (in heaven anyway). My spin goes something like this: He thought he could at least get a fiefdom by assuming command of the big house (creation) and the humans. When the Boss told him: ā€œDude, read my lips, the big house is theirs and they answer to nobody but themselves and meā€¦ā€ Envy simmers as it always does when unarrested by reason. A little later: ā€¦ā€how can he do this to me!!ā€¦ how come Iā€™m not in charge of the big house and those little shit-bag humans???ā€¦ā€ When it finally boiled over into rage (and madness), he poured out all of his malice, cruelty, and the will to dominate onto the humans. When God promised that through the genome of the woman and Jewry he would bring Messiah to undo the damage, his hatred of women and Jewry became even more pronounced. Itā€™s been that way ever since.


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    @ Muff: I like your take, although I personally don’t think either Isaiah ch. 14 or Ezekiel ch. 28 are about Lucifer, any more than I think that four actual horsemen are being talked about in Revelation. (Though the imagery certainly is powerful.)

    Karlton, I thought Dee’s comparison to men who throw it all away for a fling or two is actually pretty solid. šŸ˜‰


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    numo,

    When I asked my better half if he knew of references to the abusive practices that were supposedly prevalent in the RCC before the Reformation concerning infant baptism, he offered to produce references. He recently listened to an audio lecture that discussed them.

    I also looked online at http://www.gmc.edu to see if Marie Michelle who became the academic dean at the college could give me a reference. I’ve been out of school so long, she is now retired, as are most all of my fine instructors I studied with there. She is one who brought up a whole litany of admitted errors of the RCC before Vatican II to which she ascribed in a class called “The Theology of Suffering.” It was material not part of our text (Kushner’s When Bad Things Happen to Good People. Many RCC students were floored at her candor!

    I did ascertain that I read a narrative about this in an historical novel about William Tyndale, but I don’t have access to enough of his own writings or those about him to give you a solid reference there.

    My husband says that he learned about this, taught to him as part of church history, as a young man in the ELCA (Lutheran) as a part of discussion during his catechism process and in a discussion with an ELCA minister thereafter as a teen. He also states that he’s read/heard other references in the 40 years since then.

    That’s all I’ve got right now, but I’ll either post it here in the future and I’ll give you an email heads-up.


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    @ cindy: Many, many thanks – but I bet I can find some sources, too – no need to KO yourself over this!

    Sr. Marie Michelle sounds like a gem: the best of the Catholic academic (teaching) tradition, as well as a true post-Vatican II believer. I’ve been privileged to know some nuns who were much like her and I wish there were more of them around.

    As for strange practices, I have no doubt whatsoever about that; just would like to pinpoint some of these things – will let you know about it whenever (as well as sending a book list). šŸ™‚

    Dead Like Me: I loved that show! (The 1st season, anyway… it seemed to go downhill once the guy who created it left to work on “Pushing Daisies.”)