My Experience with Church Discipline at Covenant Fellowship – Debra Baker

“Spiritual abuse is the misuse of a position of power, leadership, or influence to further the selfish interests of someone other than the individual who needs help. Sometimes abuse arises out of a doctrinal position. At other times it occurs because of legitimate personal needs of a leader that are being met by illegitimate means. Spiritually abusive religious systems are sometimes described as legalistic, mind controlling, religiously addictive, and authoritarian.” –David Henke




We anticipate the following objection. Why are you dredging up something that happened so long ago? There are many reasons. When this incident occurred, there was no internet available for Debra to tell her story. Until fairly recently, the church/pastors controlled the microphone. They were able to tell a story from their perspective. Pastors and church leaders have as much of a sin problem as those they lead. Yet, in some churches, they hide behind an artificial wall of "authority" or "covering" which allows them freedom to follow the dictates of their own sinful nature with precious little accountability. The Internet has changed all of that. Finally, incidents hidden in the past can be brought to light and analyzed. Stories such as this might help other churches avoid a similar situation. The church must learn from its mistakes as well as its successes.


The pastors and leaders in this group of churches have put themselves in the public eye.  They write books and conduct conferences, all meant to attract the public to their organization and their particular view on doing church business. However, public scrutiny means that the public might question their methods and theology. TWW would think that if their churches are living out church life as demonstrated in the Scriptures, then the leaders would be grateful for the input of those on the outside looking in. Instead, it seems as if they stomp their feet in frustration when people not only see the good, but also the questionable. And then those observing, GASP, ask questions. However, think of it this way. This very process might help the church grow in humility as it confronts its apparent weaknesses in the light of day. This is true humility – something often talked about by churches in this venue. This story serves as a warning that people are paying close attention to what is happening in today's churches.


Today, I had a wonderful conversation with Father Clint at Christ Church in Plano, Texas. We were planning on linking to a CRI article, and I wanted to include an update on a statement in that article regarding his church's policy on baptism. He is a kind, well-spoken brother in Christ and was happy to answer my questions. Approximately 15 years ago the Christian Research Institute claimed that this church (then known as Christ Episcopal Church) required parents to study one of the Ezzo books before their children could be baptized. He assured me that they do NOT do this, and he is trying to ascertain whether such a thing was imposed on parents in the past. He said it was difficult to imagine such a requirement. We pray God's blessings on his church.


Some churches are beginning to elevate secondary doctrines to primary importance. Let this be the major warning of this story. In fact, the author was told she might be in sin if she did not adhere to these parenting standards. Pastors, intent on their own agenda, can twist Scripture to enforce their own petty belief systems. I had a conversation with one pastor on the issue of creation. I said that the age of the earth was a secondary doctrine. He became irritated and said, "You think creation is a secondary issue?" Note the attempt to move the age of the earth under the heading of Who created the heavens and the earth. The fact that God created the heavens and the earth is a primary issue. That was not the issue I was discussing. This is a tactic designed to stifle communication, not explore the depth and breadth of Christian thinking on a subject. I think some pastors and leaders are afraid to have their knowledge, or lack thereof, questioned. Why? Insecurity? Arrogance? Stupidity?


However, this particular story is even more concerning. There have been legitimate issues raised on the Ezzo method over a long period of time.There have been documented concerns on the part of recognized medical groups on failure to thrive and dehydration in infants whose parents utilize this method. This means that infants' health and well-being could be potentially at risk. It would seem that some churches are hellbent on enforcing fads with little regard for intelligent input. Pastors do not have training on every issue, such as feeding infants and disciplining children; yet some purport to be life experts in all areas. Such pigheaded arrogance is troubling and seems to be at odds with the Christian understanding of the priesthood of the believer. This means that pastors must listen carefully to the people that God has placed in their congregation. If pastors refuse to do so, then they show little understanding that giftedness is shared by ALL in the congregation. That is NOT a church to attend. 


I found some of the alleged comments from the church to be both pathetic and abusive. This author was told her marriage would be in trouble if she did not follow this particular form of parenting. Can you imagine? Abusive groups often make up stories like this to apply pressure and to discount critics. When we confronted a situation in a former church, an elder admitted to spreading rumors that my marriage was in trouble.


According to SGM Survivors, SGM no longer insists that parents follow the Ezzo system. Isn't it sad that the leaders wasted so much time and sacrificed relationships and unity within the body to enforce a man-made system of feeding and discipline? I think this should be a lesson to all who read this story. The church has been foolish throughout the centuries. It jailed Galileo, accusing him of being a heretic for saying the earth moved around the sun. It justified slavery and racism. We know of churches today who elevate the following issues to primary importance: homeschooling, courtship, early marriages, anti birth control, KJVO, ESVO, Calvinism, alcohol abstinence, age of the earth, the exact timing of Jesus' Second Coming, etc. And we break communion and fellowship over these issues. Is that what Jesus meant when He said we would be known by our love? He didn't say that we would be known by our infant feeding schedules – Good night!


There was one statement that caused me a sleepless night. Some children, it was reported, were being spanked 30-40 times a day!!! If there were parents who were spanking their kids 40 times a day, then Child Protective Services should have been called in.  If CPS knew about this, those children would have been removed from those families. Something is seriously wrong! Anyone who advocates such measures needs to be thrown out of the church instead of some nice lady concerned that infants need to be fed a bit more frequently. Is the world upside down here or what?


Finally, this story has gotten much play throughout the Internet. The Christian Research Institute wrote, with deep concern, about this event on a couple of occasions. Here is a link to one of those articles.  Can I prove this story is true? No, but there are people who wrote us to say they would swear out an affidavit that it is. We believe the story has merit and is filled with a  whole bunch of lessons for all or us.




The events of which I bear witness occurred in the early to mid-1990s at Covenant Fellowship of Philadelphia (which I will shorten to CFOP). We were members of the church from the first meeting in Newtown Square, PA until we were released from membership or, as I am fond of saying, "dismembered". I am the mother of eight children and, because I have a keen interest in biological processes, have done a decent amount of research with respect to infant nutrition and child development. In fact, when I went back to school, I tested out of basic psychology and early child development.


I ended up as a strong advocate of attachment parenting. Since I had six children at that time, people asked me questions about parenting, particularly about breastfeeding. The leaders within the church were in the early stages of promoting a much more structured and parent-directed philosophy that was popularized by Gary and Ann-Marie Ezzo. To be honest, I had never even heard of the Ezzos until my husband, Pat, and I were called into a meeting with our pastors and told not to discuss our parenting beliefs with others in the church.


I will be honest and say that I am very similar to Donkey on Shrek; getting me to shut up would be impressive rather than getting me to talk and we were eventually un-membered and asked not to attend any of their functions, including unofficial prayer gatherings in a friend’s private home.


Some incidents and issues that still make my heart cramp with sadness:


I did not understand the reasoning behind trying to silence me over something that wasn’t a doctrinal issue to which one of the pastors responded that parenting was a doctrinal issue to them. When I asked them to cite a verse in the Bible to support their position, I was called, “Combative”. I don’t understand how backing up a position with Scripture can be interpreted as combative.


I also tried to say this issue was a matter of opinion and personal interpretation rather than a sin issue to which he responded, “Some would say you are in sin.” I got pretty upset at that point and demanded they cite a verse to back up their position and that “some people” should look to Matthew 18 and come to me privately if they believed I was in sin to which they responded that I was combative, unteachable, and prideful.


We were told our marriage would not last another ten years because we were not parent-centered.


We were told we would never be considered for any leadership position ever.

When my daughter was 14 or 15, she actually went to one of these pastors and *apologized* for having an unforgiving heart toward him. His response: he *forgave* her. Can you imagine? There was no reciprocation on his part; he (big man that he is) forgave her. This is their attitude – things flow in one direction. He never asked her forgiveness for all the hurt he caused her to put her in a place in which her heart needed to forgive.


When I discussed this issue with a friend who happened to be a journalist, he did what any good reporter would do — he went to the pastors to get their perspective. It's important to note that this happened *after* our dismembership.  One of the pastors had the audacity to call my husband and order him not to discuss the issue with the press.


I saw the church grow from being strict to being downright draconian in their parenting. Women seemed to take pride in their “advanced” children that needed to be switched/spanked with a ruler or glue stick at three months old because they were squirming upon being changed. Newborn crying (with obvious hunger cues like rooting and sucking of fists) were ignored in favor of a schedule. A pastor’s wife and another pastor’s wife were in the nursing mother’s room talking about how often they spanked their toddlers the previous day. One mentioned 30 or 40 times that day. I was in trouble for saying something like, “You actually spanked your child 40 times in one day?” To which she responded, “Well, don’t you?” To which I responded, “If I was spanking my child 40 times in a single day, I would wonder what I was doing wrong and prayerfully seek alternatives to whatever I was doing because 40 spankings would pretty much be my entire daily interaction with a child, and that isn’t what I signed up for when I became a mother.” Now, people, including those in authority at SGM, look back and see this time as one of excessive harshness. I don’t consider myself to be the final word on parenting, but it didn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that these were warning signs indicating that people had gone a bridge too far in the strict direction.


The following is a not-so-friendly exchange between the Ezzos, the pastors, and me. They were essentially caught misrepresenting the truth. Link here. Look for the “Released from Membership” sub-heading.


Quote from this document, “As an example of’ division associated with GFI, Our original article stated that “Debra and Pat Baker were involuntarily released from membership’ and even barred from unofficial church functions after voicing concerns about PFP at Covenant Fellowship of Philadelphia” (CFOP) (11).

GFI challenged this statement, noting that the Bakers had not responded to a letter of concern sent to them from CFOP in a timely manner. GFI stated, CFOP did what many churches do in such cases, drop non-attenders from their membership roles.” (46)

The Bakers contradict GFI’s implication. They insist they attended church every Sunday during the months preceding their being “released” front membership. (47)

Financial records from the church itself demonstrate that they had consistently given to the church during that period. (48)

Furthermore, the very letter that GFI selectively quotes from makes it clear the church action was based on the Bakers’ disagreement with the church’s teaching of the family, which included teaching from PFP:“We have released you from membership at Covenant Fellowship….The pastors’ philosophy on family life represents many fundamental differences which we will aggressively teach in the future. Wisdom would dictate that you need a church home which supports rather than challenges your strong opinions.” (49)

Finally, while the Bakers had indeed failed to respond to a letter of concern from the Church in a timely manner, they also explained and apologized for their late response, reiterated their respect for the church leadership and their desire to continue in membership at the church, and asked the Church to reconsider its decision. (50)

The church replied within two days, refusing to reverse its decision. Later they sent the Bakers a letter barring them from even unofficial church meetings .(51)

The Journal statement was accurate and based on written documentation from both of the primary sources—the Bakers and CFOP




We received a comment from "Concerned2" who asked us if we had called Dave Harvey to get the other point of view. From what I can tell, there is no Dave Harvey mentioned in the above story. Perhaps this commenter would like to inform our readers who Dave Harvey is and why he assumed that Harvey's name would come up in our post?


Join us on Monday when we will be discussing John Piper's rather controversial statement on domestic violence.


Lydia's Corner: Deuteronomy 7:1-8:20 Luke 7:36-8:3 Psalm 69:1-18 Proverbs 12:1






My Experience with Church Discipline at Covenant Fellowship – Debra Baker — 37 Comments

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    HELLO dee: Maybe U can help me. I am looking for one of those churches where U can tell the members what to do with no repercussion. Seriously i am astonished when I read about those who have been abused by a pastor or a church. I am amused when I see some pastors castigate bloggers as though they don’t have the liberty of making their feelings known. Jesus said the time would come when what we did in secret wouild be shouted from the housetop. I like bloggers and blogging. If i am in error and ir is exposed it should only make me repent and try to do better. Jack

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    Jack, you can start with a Sovereign Grace Ministries church. I am sure there are others but that’s a pretty safe place for pastors to tell members what to do and how to live their lives, all the while getting to claim that it is not their way, but God’s way.

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    Thanks for sharing your story with us. You were/are a brave woman, and I applaud your heroic efforts to show care and concern for the tiniest among us. I hope we can meet someday.

    Blessings to you and your family!

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    At least your former pastor didn’t call you “combative”. What was it he said about your body language?

    Is there a rule book out there? Is this what is being taught at all those pastors’ conferences? Why are these pastors using similar intimidation techniques?

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    Here’s what I want to know. Why did/do churches embrace Ezzo’s teachings? What’s in it for them?

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    “Here’s what I want to know. Why did/do churches embrace Ezzo’s teachings? What’s in it for them?”

    I can take a stab at this since I was big into programming and marketing stuff in megas. Programs whether raising kids, money, marriage are BIG…HUGE in the Christian marketing world. There is money to be made in books, seminars, DVD’s, materials, etc.

    Everyone wants a formula that is “Christianized” to live by. It is a great marketing tool. Think of how well self help books have sold for the last 40 years. Think of how many zillions sold of “How to Win Friends and Influence People” even back in the 1930’s. That book was the father of self help.

    The church just got in on the act because it promises “community” and community stays where it is and it is also a way to bring new folks in and make money. Also, Just think of celebrity endorsements and how they work. The same for the Christian community. The pastor says this is great…so it must be. they also bring in other respected names to affirm such endorsements. Just watch how celebrities in Christendom blurb each others books. There is a reason for this.

    I think Ezzo, in particular, was a stark contrast to the permissive parenting culture. It is not vague like Dobson could be. It has specific things you do. This appeals to many. Religion by works. People love it. It sells big time.

    What does not occur to them (or me for many years) that we are to Abide in Christ and TEST everything.

    Just my 2 cents.

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    Since some (if not all) SGM churches sold Ezzo books in their “bookstore”, do you think they were getting some kind of kick-back? What was in it for them other than control of the flock?

    What’s really sad to me is that there are churches and pastors who are still promoting these materials, despite all the warnings.

    Praise God for the internet! Hopefully, parents of infants will start doing research and challenge those who support Ezzo’s teachings.

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    Deb, We would never have operated bookstores at a loss in the mega’s. We had loss leaders to get them in but that was certainly not the goal.

    However, the motivation to “control the flock” brings in the same result…it is profitable to have followers. It grows and maintains the system.

    Once people have bought into a system whether it is Ezzo or Dave Ramsey or Love and Respect, etc….they either become zealots for it or are quiet about their once dogmatism….because it is very hard to admit they could have been wrong about something they were sold out to. I know. Been there, done that.

    Another thing: If we found that a program or celebrity came under fire for something embarassing we simply stopped promoting it, supporting it and let it die a natural death. One never mentioned its name again. I can remember this with the “Weigh Down” program so popular in some megas.

    When it was found out there were serious problems with Shamblin’s foundational doctrine, it was a hot potato. What to do?

    We would nevr admit we were wrong and had no discernment. We let it die. And quickly found another weight program to promote.

    Which only proves these programs gain followers because they are promoted by people/institutions that are trusted.

    Scary thought. I wish people would TEST everything.

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    I have a current pastor who says that if we truly understand grace we should not be embarrassed by our sin. In other words, we sin, admit it, confess it, and be open about it. So many churches want to hide their sin from the world. They think this is to “protect their witness.” Yet churches often point fingers at a watching world, railing against sinners in the world. The world rightly says, “you guys are sinners as well.”

    We need churches to admit their failings and give glory to God for the marvelous sacrifice of Jesus who knew we could not ever do it completely right.

    And you are correct. The Scripture does say that what we do in the dark will come to light. Guess the Holy Spirit knew about the Internet.

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    It is interesting that , when a church decides they have been teaching something that is false, they let it die a natural death. if the Bible is to be believed, it would seem to me that open confession and repentance along with a humility which confesses man’s frailties might do more for the image of the church than all this stumbling around trying to keep things hidden. Funny thing about “secrets”-they tend to spread more quickly than the open truth. Why not accept that and embrace out failures honestly?

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    Back in my day (and my day prolly goes back considerably farther than most here), I remember Father Doyle’s razor strap did wonders to help us learn the finer points of Latin verb declension at St. James’ boys academy.

    The Jesuits were known for their,… shall we say, “efficient teaching methods” that got results. But babies being brutalized at 3 mos. on the changing table? This is beyond the pale of reason and even humanity. How do supposedly rational people swallow this horse manure? I’m tempted to use an even more colorful ephemism here,… but aw shucks y’all get the point.

    The desire to be “Biblical” in all things is a laudable goal for Evangelicals to be sure. But when it’s not tempered (beyond the essentials) with reason and common sense, it has the potential to strip us of our humanity.

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    Dee and I are grieved beyond words that tiny infants are being treated in such a cruel way by those whom God has entrusted to care for them – their parents and most likely mothers! Shame on them!

    Are these moms taking out their anger on their helpless little babies? Who encouraged them to use glue sticks? This should have been reported to the authorities!

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    Greetings Dee and Deb,

    I apologize and ask your forgiveness for assuming that you would mention the name of Dave Harvey in the above story.

    I also ask forgiveness of Dave Harvey and anyone else I may have offended for mentioning his name in my post.

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    Concerned2, I still think it is interesting that you brought Dave Harvey up as I believe Dave Harvey was the senior pastor at the time of the Baker family’s dismemberment. He was not the pastor who predicted the failure of their marriage (they are all intriguing now) but Dave Harvey presided over the church and I believe their dismembership process.

    As to the allegations that the Bakers were not active or attending members I can heartily say that that statement is deceptive, misleading and full of baloney. Shameful that any Christian would twist and pervert truth in such a manner.

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    I appreciate your being forthright enough to ask for forgiveness. I only wish the same could be said of SGM’s leadership. I do have a most sincere question for you. Would you have been as remorseful if said forgiveness didn’t involve one of SGM’s top brass? Just something to think about…

    A note to our readers:

    One of the main reasons I prodded Debra Baker to share her horrendous SGM experience is because it used to be included in the Wikipedia article on “Sovereign Grace Ministries” under criticisms, and then it suddenly disappeared. Now we have her testimony in our TWW archives where it will never be removed.

    FYI, we are now looking into glue sticks being used as disciplinary tools (especially with infants) in SGM churches, as Debra described in her testimony. This appears to have originated with the Pearls (and possible the Ezzos). We certainly hope this form of discipline is no longer being done in SGM. If it is, we would like to know about it.

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    I am REALLY MAD about the improper use of glue sticks, and I echo the sentiments of this blogger who recently wrote about it. We will be discussing this issue soon here at TWW.

    “Glue Sticks Are For Gluing

    I have heard more than a few times last year and this year, folks are using GLUE STICKS; the larger foot long kind; you know the ones we get for our crafty glue guns?? They are using them to “spank” their children.

    I’m sorry, but GLUE STICKS ARE FOR GLUING things. They are meant for fun family projects…. Not this!

    So, I googled it….. and sure enough, just as I suspected once again…. there is a group of people on the internet recommending glue sticks be used as “a rod of correction”.

    If you believe in spanking. Fine. This post isn’t about that. Spanking vs. not spanking will be an eternal debate in this country. This post is about common sense and not harming children.

    WHAT IS GOING ON???? We are such a society of extremes.
    I read several posts such as: “the liberal left who wants to keep you from any form of disciplining of your children”, and then, “the extreme fundamentalist right who wants to beat their children for pleasure”…… Those are really near quotes from some of the wesites and blogs I went to.

    Frankly, I think both of those extremes are emotionally charged statements that don’t solve anything and certainly don’t lead to somebody with an opposing view to soften their ideas.

    (I won’t send you on a wild goose chase, just google for yourself, it will keep you up all night)

    Keep in mind these names: Michael and Debi Pearl, The Ezzos, Richard Fugate . There are others.

    Their books have been around awhile.

    I read Mike and Debi Pearl’s book a long time ago, when their name kept popping up, and when I kept hearing about how selfish babies are and how they need to be trained from newborn not to demand being fed, held, etc. ????? I’m serious, I got totally freaked out. The Ezzo’s are regurgitated Pearls in a nicer package, but the message is basically the same.

    One of the problems with these people is they prey on insecurity, guilt and fear. They tell you if you don’t do things THEIR way, which is OF COURSE, God’s way, then your kids will grow up to be unrepentant ax murderers and it will all be your fault! That is a basic synopsis. In fact, I did a book review one time and was shocked at the venom, just because I dared to disagree with a certain book.

    Of course, my soul’s eternal state was in question, all because I didn’t agree with the person’s book!

    People Please! “Train Up Your Child in the way He should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.” IS NOT an etched in stone command that guarantees your child’s sure salvation. No man comes to the Lord unless the SPIRIT draws.

    If you are going to take that Proverbs passage literally, then you will have to take the entire poetic book literally and make it all fit into a neat little theological box…..It won’t, because it wasn’t meant to be literal. The word used for “in the way he should go”, is talking about a child’s strength or “bent”…… meaning….. if he is great at carpentry, teach him the skills, and when he is old, he won’t depart from being a carpenter, or a plummer, or a musician or a seamstress….. fill in the blank! But it is just an observation.

    After 30 plus years of hearing this type of stuff…… ENOUGH! I am sad to see young parents drawn into the same illegetimate garbage of the day. I am sad to see them saddled with guilt,burdens and fear, that if they don’t do things just like so and so, their child will not grow up to serve God. IT IS NOT TRUE! There is NO scripture that says this.

    Scripture says CLEARLY, “He who does not DISCIPLINE his son, HATES his son!” THIS IS A TRUE FACT….. but what is discipline? That is the million dollar question…. Sadly, for many, all it means is punishment, and punishment is NOT = to discipline.”

    Also, check out this link:

    “Their glue sticks are for whipping babies and younger toddlers on their bare skin, starting at less than 1 year of age. (Debi Pearl first spanked at least one of her babies at age 4 months. And on their website, Michael Pearl talks about using “the rod” to “train” your six month old not to drop food on the floor from his highchair). When their children grow a little older, they whip them instead with 1/4 inch plumber’s supply line from the hardware store, which Michael Pearl recommends as the ideal chastising instrument. He says on his website that you should buy them by the dozen from Home Depot so you can have one in every room of your house and also in your car.”

    More to come…

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    Did I not offend you with an inappropriate assumption I made? I did , and I asked you for forgiveness.

    By God’s grace, it is my heart’s desire to ask forgiveness and make things right whenever I offend someone, regardless of who they are. I could give you many examples involving folks who are not in leadership positions.

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    I want to thank you as my brother in Christ for your sincere desire to ask for forgiveness. Apology accepted.

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    In God’s sovereignty, I just saw this article when I logged onto the internet.

    Dads’ Postpartum Depression Ups Odds of Spankings

    This excerpt near the end of the article was especially disturbing to me.

    “The issue of spanking children has been hotly debated, but the researchers found it worrying that these babies were a year old or younger, at “a developmental stage when children are unlikely to understand the connection between their behavior and subsequent punishment and when spanking is more likely to cause physical injury.” ”

    Come on parents! Babies don’t have the cognitive ability to understand why they are being spanked. This is called child abuse.

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    Here is the bottom line. Any parent using glue sticks or pvc pipe or whatever to whop infants needs to have their heads examined, their hearts examined, and have outside supervision by the authorities. Whoever dreamed this stuff up is an idiot and whoever subscribes to this stuff is an idiot’s idiot. Anyone who promoted this stuff in the past, and still does needs to have a visit from CPS and anyone who did it and, is now sufficiently educated regarding this garbage, needs to repent and should never, ever oversee any children for the rest of their lives.

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    They need a plumb line in every room of their house to whip their kids? What perversion is this? And people buy this stuff? May God forgive us. Has anyone ever reported this stuff to Child Protective Services? Can you imagine what would happen if the major media got ahold of this?

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    Can you imagine if one of our Calvinista boys came out with a new patriarchal rule-whoop the womenfolk with plumber’s line when they get out of line? It would be considered abuse. So, why isn’t it abuse with kids?

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    So many people take what the Bible says literally that they cannot see the big picture behind a verse. For example-spare the rod may be referring to the need to discipline your kids-not beat the you know what out of them.

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    I agree Dee, and there’s also an opposite extreme, the one where even common spanking (NOT the extreme fundamentalist variety!) is not permitted. My son and daughter in law subscribed to this opposite extreme for a time and were sorry for it later, when the kids became ill-behaved and unruly.

    I see child discipline as a carefully crafted balance that falls neither in the domain of abuse nor in the realm of new agey permissive nonsense.

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    Some of my children have never been spanked yet they are well-behaved because I have a low tolerence for bratty kids and they are generally well-disciplined.

    I think it’s a YMMV sort of thing and my big beef is people trying to mandate pet teachings as Biblical when there is no scripture to support the teaching.

    The train up phrase, for example, is the Hebrew Channuk which means dedicate. If one were to substitute “Dedicate,” for, “Train-up,” there is a different feel and heart meaning in the word and if rod is modifying the verb, “Discipline,” it becomes symbolic of authority (Thy rod and staff comfort me,” instead of a literal stick. Discipline becomes relational instead of something unpleasant done to a child that is inherently negative.

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    To be absolutely clear, I am not opposed to spanking children; however, Dee and I are specifically talking about spanking “infants”. There’s a HUGE difference!

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    Amen to that!

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    I don’t particularly need an apology from you regarding DH. I think you learned a lesson about assumptions. What I would love from you is a testimony about your experience at SGM. You defend all things SGM even when it is not prudent to do so. I am curious about the details. Please think about it.

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    I was wondering what one lady who blogs thought about Babywise. This lady is named Zsuzsanna Anderson, she is the wife of Pastor Steve Anderson of Tempe – if you don’t know who I’m talking about, look him up! Anyway, Zsuzsanna doesn’t believe in birth control, has 6 kids and she’s only 31, gave birth to 5 of them at home, homeschools the older ones, wears only dresses (yeah, quiverfull ALL the way!) Anyway, she has one blog entry where she mentions Babywise. And she hates it! She says that little babies can’t understand why they’re being spanked, and also there is no way that a nursing mother can keep that schedule. The babies wouldn’t get enough milk. The Moms wouldn’t be nursing enough to keep up their lactational ammenorreah, allowing them to get pregnant. I guess someone who says that she only has at most 2 cycles between pregnancies would be concerned about that! Anyway, I thought you might be interested in the fact that even a quiverful mom would say Babywise is no good.

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    What is so hard, is that if you are a brand new parent, with all the untold anxiety that many new parents harbor. You are vulnerable to try these methods, because people you respect (pastors) tell you that this system will get you to a good place with your children.

    I am sad to say, that we spanked our children under this system for a brief period before we finally said “no mas!”-to quote Beverly Hills Chihuahua. I can not even imagine how stupid I was being-but we truly did not know any better.

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    Oh the fear tactics we were under at Covenant Fellowship if we did NOT use the glue stick. The horrible tales of how our children would turn out. How we didn’t love our children if we were not willing to do such a thing. I am glad my kids were too old for the glue stick thing but I know many families who had one above every door jam in their home so that they didn’t even have to leave the room to go get a glue stick to spank their child with it. I didn’t think having any spanking implement in easy reach was a good idea. If you needed to spank, I always thought it was best to take yourself and the child to a room elsewhere so you and the child could have some time to think it over before you began. Super easy access to the glue stick could mean that you spanked in anger and that is never OK.

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    I am not opposed to spanking, either. And you are right…spanking infants is heinous and demented.

    I saw a mom I know just a few days ago carrying around a GKGW workbook. Thankfully her boys are older: 4 and 8. And she is a wonderful person and serious believer. I am going to give it a few days and send her a hice note encouraging her to check out some of the public information on Ezzo.

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    Shame on the leadership of Covenant Fellowship for their cruel and manipulative coersion of parents! What a travesty.

    Are glue sticks still being used by parents in SGM?

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    QUOTE: “Once people have bought into a system whether it is Ezzo or Dave Ramsey or Love and Respect, etc….they either become zealots for it or are quiet about their once dogmatism….because it is very hard to admit they could have been wrong about something they were sold out to. I know. Been there, done that.”

    Yes. We (especially as Christians who really DO want to follow God) have such a hard time admitting to ourselves that we have been deceived, that we were not discerning, that we fell for crap wrapped up in Christian lingo. While I was young, I wasn’t a new Christian. I was pretty established in my faith and thought I knew how to really search the Scripture — and still drank the Ezzo kool-aid, believing it was a “Biblical philosophy.”

    Though, the Lord has used in so many ways my failure at discernment, my failure in making good decisions in those early years of parenting — He has used them to draw me closer to Himself and lean into His grace.

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    Tulip Girl

    That is quite a good point. People have a hard time admitting that they bought into a system even if they realize that it is wrong. I am sure the more you have invested time, money etc.