The will of God is never exactly what you expect it to be. It may seem to be much worse, but in the end it's going to be a lot better and a lot bigger. –Elisabeth Elliot
Yesterday we presented the first half of our letter to a megachurch pastor in response to his email assuring us of Greear's positive intents. We could have ended our letter on that note. However, we decided to take risk. As many of our readers are aware, we have become concerned about the number of complaints about spiritual abuse within Sovereign Grace Ministries. These can be found at various survivor type blogs, one of which is called SGM Survivors. In fact, today we had a lovely meeting with a former longtime member of PDI and Sovereign Grace Ministries. So many blanks were filled in. Once again, we heard stories that only serve to raise our concerns.
Before we post on a matter, we spend time visiting a church, talking with members/former members, reading books by the pastors, etc. We go onto church websites and note the books that are recommended. In our 11/09 post, we did the same and since that time have followed JD Greear's blog regularly. We follow his, along with other pastors, speaking engagements and often listen to talks delivered at these conferences.
We saw a couple of recommended books on Greear's site and were a bit concerned. To be fair, we know that many high visibility pastors are very busy, traveling about the country, speaking, writing books, as well as trying to be a pastor of a large congregation. We want to give them the benefit of the doubt in terms of their understanding of potentially serious problems with some ministries. Perhaps they do not have enough time to research the backgrounds of their friends and just follow the trends of their compatriots. We would make one recommendation before anyone puts a book on his blog. Make sure you understand the implications and problems with some of these authors.
Our intent was to be sure that a certain pastor was aware of the implications of a couple of books on Greear's site. Here is the second half of our response to Pastor A's email.
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Part 2
In your email, you said that, if we had simply researched Greear's website, we would have found that his intent in this matter is clear. We hasten to assure you that we have read both his website and his blog over the past couple of years. Greear is a visible star in the Reformed Baptist firmament and we make it a priority to follow his thoughts.
While visiting his website, we discovered several books on the recommended reading list that concern us and may have led to our perception of hyper-authoritarian leadership. The first book that disturbs us is On Becoming Babywise: Giving Your Infant the Gift of Nighttime Sleep by Gary Ezzo. Perhaps he and his wife have used this book successfully, but there is considerable evidence that Ezzo is not a man of integrity and that his methodology is extremely harmful. Yes, this is a serious accusation, and it is highly justified.
We have thoroughly investigated Gary Ezzo, and this is what we found.
Over a decade ago, Christianity Today published an article entitled: “Unprepared to Teach Parenting? Two churches long associated with Babywise author Gary Ezzo denounce his character and fitness for Christian ministry.” Link here.
Here is a startling excerpt:
“Two California churches have issued statements saying that Gary Ezzo, president of Growing Families International (GFI), is unfit for Christian ministry. Both of the churches have interacted closely with Ezzo…Living Hope Evangelical Fellowship of Granada Hills, California, officially "excommunicated" Ezzo on April 30. Ezzo and his wife had already stopped attending the church. The elders of Living Hope issued a statement saying they believe Ezzo is "biblically disqualified from all public ministry" because of a lack of truthfulness, Christian character, and accountability.”
The other church that denounced Gary Ezzo is Grace Community Church, where John MacArthur pastors. The board of elders at MacArthur’s church released a shocking statement to the public at large, which can be accessed at this link.
After parents began implementing Ezzo’s infant feeding methods in the 1990s, The American Academy of Pediatrics became alarmed due to reports of infant malnourishment and even death! 3/9/11-addendum- There was no documented evidence of death, however there was documented concern regarding malnourishment .In response, they issued a statement endorsing demand feedings over scheduled feedings, which you can read here.
Also, the Christian Research Institute has an excellent resource, which we highly recommend. Link here.
Your e-mail appears to be providential because the day before you sent it, I (Deb) had been communicating with a woman on our blog who was excommunicated from her church for rejecting Ezzo’s teachings. At the time this happened, she belonged to a Sovereign Grace Ministries church in Pennsylvania where Dave Harvey served as senior pastor. I requested that she submit her testimony for publication on The Wartburg Watch to warn other parents of Ezzo’s dangerous teaching. Here’s the link to my comment in case you would like to read it.
She has agreed to submit a post, which we will be publishing in the coming weeks. We had planned to highlight ministries that continue to promote Gary Ezzo’s materials, including The Summit. Out of concern for the health and well being of the most vulnerable amongst us – infants – we urge him to remove this resource from his “Recommended Readings”.
Speaking of “Sovereign Grace Ministries”, we also take issue with two other books he recommends, specifically C.J. Mahaney’s Humility: True Greatness and Living the Cross-Centered Life. We are aware of his remark that “Mahaney and Driscoll are two of my absolute favorite speakers…”
We have written extensively on Sovereign Grace Ministries, including reviews of the aforementioned books by Mahaney. Here is our review of Living the Cross Centered Life.
We are stymied at how C.J. Mahaney has been embraced by such a wide segment of Reformed leaders. We are deeply concerned that SGM, under the watch of Mahaney, has spawned so many survivor-type blogs, along with widespread accusations of spiritual abuse that are rampant throughout the blogosphere. Here is a link to one of several blogs that deal with this matter.
It has been reported, by former members of SGM, that C.J. Mahaney invited Charles Simpson, an unrepentant member of the Fort Lauderdale Five (Shepherding Movement), to speak at several "Celebration" conferences. Given the high number of reports of abuse in SGM, it would seem to us that Reformed leaders need to take a second look at this ministry and its leadership. In light of these concerns, it would also be wise to take a look at how certain books could be misused in the ministry. Where there is so much smoke, one has to consider that there may be fire.
So, perhaps you can now better understand how Greear's sermon might have hit the wrong note with us. We would be happy to meet with you to discuss your thoughts and our perceptions. We would be glad to post any response to our post, unedited, on the blog. However, please know that we hold our commitment to confidentiality quite seriously and will not release your correspondence to us unless you request that we do so.
Thank you, once again, for caring enough to respond to our thoughts. You have impressed us with your dedication. As we said in the blog, Greear is a “darn fine” preacher.
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Because we said we would not release his correspondence to us, we will have to give you a synopsis.
He reiterated that Greear's intent was not to separate himself from the sheep and that he views Greear as both shepherd and sheep. He did not back down on Greear's interpretation of dumb sheep but said that perhaps Greear was being playful. However, he claimed to understand our concerns without telling us what they were because there was absolutely no mention made of those hurt by the church.
However, he claimed that we were exhibiting an uncharitable attitude to Mahaney, Greear and others (guess he reads our blog) and violated 1Corinthians 13. We were admonished to listen to them and watch for the spirit of Christ in these ministries.He also said that we "assaulted the character" of Gary Ezzo and that Ezzo's teaching is "very biblical." Once again, no mention was made of those hurt my any of these ministries.
He did say we challenged him and prayed for God's blessing on our ministry.
Now, for a most interesting interlude. I am friends with a brilliant, deeply devoted, young man who is a student at UNC Chapel Hill. He attended my Sunday school class along with his parents and has been an ardent supporter and occasional commenter on the blog. He attends the same church as me. After we sent our response letter to Pastor A, JD Greear was a speaker on campus. This young man attended. The next Sunday he told me what happened. This young man, who has also read Greear's blog, decided to ask Greear why he had Mahaney's books and Ezzo's book on his blog. The books were the exact ones mentioned in our letter to Pastor A! I started to get a bit dizzy and asked him if he knew about an email we had received at TWW. His answer, "What email?" He told us the Greear asked him if Dee or Deb was his mother. Feeling uncomfortable he said, "No" and later sent him an email saying that he knew us and read our blog.
Both Deb and I are deeply disappointed that our letter appears to have had very little impact on this Pastor. Our major point that people are being hurt in the churches seems to have gone unnoticed while we are told to "make nice" with pastors who appear to have, wittingly or unwittingly, contributed to this issue. No acknowledgment was made of this growing problem. We wish he could have thrown us a bone but it did not occur. So, dear reader, what should we have said differently? Where did we fail? What would you say if you had the chance?
3/9/11 update
TWW wants to make clear that there have been no documented instances of death utilizing this method, merely several questionable anecdotal reports.However, the AAP has reported the risk of FTT and other issues with this method.When a baby is diagnosed with FTT, one has to be concerned that a baby could become very sick, very, very quickly,especially low birth weight infants. These warnings should be given to all parents who choose this method of feeding.
Lydia's Corner: Numbers 32:1-33:39 Luke 4:31-5:11 Psalm 64:1-10 Proverbs 11:22
I first heard the name “Ezzo” when an associate pastor came to our church about 15 years ago. He and has his wife had used some of the “Ezzo” stuff, but he said it was a bit strict, and they were not using it anymore.
At the time, our children were 2 and 3. Our church has never encouraged or mandated a “one size fits all” approach to child rearing. No special authors or conferences are promoted etc.
So, we just raised our kids outside the influence of the Christian authors and child rearing bubble.
We have not homeschooled our kids, either. I can clearly see some benefits to that if a parent is gifted and deadlcated, but more and more I see the problems. We have done public and private school. Our kids are definitely more “worldly” than many in the youth group because they are exposed to things that are part of their every day world, fashion, cultural trends etc. But the more socially restricted kids in the youth group are no different from mine on what I would call the “heart” issues. It’s that they just live in a different culture.
I have never read any of C.J.’s books either. I have seen him on panel discussions, but have never heard him preach.
I have read some articles that Greear has written, and I think they have been great. I heard him preach once, and I thought his personal presence was not as good as his writing.
I don’t think that you have done anything wrong here. I am glad that you have posted this information.
But my hope is that Pastor A and J.D. are still reading. And that this knowledge of public scrutiny within the evangelical community will bring concern, not just in PR scrubbing, but genuine concern.
Sorry for the typos – “dedicated” not “deadicated” etc.
anonymous
Doent be concerned about spellling-read my commments-they are allwayz misspelledd due to haiste
What? No admonition to practice Matt 18? :o)
You could tell him that “love” does not practice Ezzo. In other words, 1 Corin 13 applies to our children, too. :o)
To insinuate your words were not Christian is the tactic they always use. There is NO nice enough way to disagree with these guys. So that is where they start because you had the nerve to keep on disagreeing!
You were very professional…used content and examples but you still disagreed. That was your sin.
At the risk of being characterized as “uncharitable”, here is some important information about the relationship (or lack thereof) the Ezzos currently have with their own daughters. I believe the evidence speaks for itself.
http://www.ezzo.info/Articles/openletter.htm
“A Family Ministry Without a Family?
Readers have reason to question not only Gary and Anne Marie Ezzo’s believability but also their suitability to teach others about parenting. The Ezzos have not succeeded in their parenting relationships with their own children as measured by their own standards. On Becoming BABYWISE tells parents not to look at “the reasoning or logic of the hypothesis” but to “observe the end results,” and Growing Kids God’s Way says, “The relational goal of our parenting is friendship with our children” (emphases in originals). But the Ezzos have not achieved this goal with their own two daughters.
Sadly, several years ago, both daughters and their husbands cut off contact with the Ezzos, and they remain estranged. Both couples have confirmed this to Ezzo.info. One couple, the Luedkes, indicated that their decision was based on their personal observation of the same types of character issues raised by others and that it was done only after much prayer, consideration, and counsel.
This situation is a true tragedy, but churches and parents considering the Ezzos’ parenting advice deserve to know that the pattern of broken relationships they have left behind them extends even into their own family.”
Deb
I can’t wait to hear you address what constitutes an assault on character. For example, Ergun Caner lied about his background. Is saying he lied an assault or a simple statement of fact? Should a book by a liar such as Caner be recommended on a Christian site?
The pain of many ex SGMers is well documented on SGM Survivor sites. This pain, expressed by so many, must be taken into account. Why would so many write of such pain? Is it a vast anti-Mahaney SGM conspiracy? And to bring this stuff up is uncharitable? Or is it calling attention to a systemic problem that should be questioned?
Dee,
The questions you have posed brought to mind an exchange I read earlier today between Peasant Princess and Kris over at SGM Survivors.
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=2088#comment-31295
Peasant Princess asked: (Comment #56)
February 28th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
“Kris —
I know you said once that you became familiar with SGM via Challies.
Did you ever email him re: your SGM experience?
I’m a fan of his site, so I’m just curious about his response.”
Kris responded as follows: (Comment #62)
February 28th, 2011 at 10:16 pm
“Peasant –
Over the 3+ years that I’ve been doing this blog, I have emailed Tim Challies at least a couple of times. I, too, was a great admirer of his blog. Matter of fact, Tim’s writings were one of the main things that drove Guy and me to stick it out at our own SGM church for as long as we did. I viewed Challies as someone with excellent discernment and common sense. All his pieces about SGM presented the organization (and CJ) in the most positive of lights. Even when things at our own SGM church struck me the strangest, I’d tell myself, “It’s got to just be me – guys like Tim Challies couldn’t be wrong!”
But…
Like I said – I emailed him a couple of times. The first was just a few weeks after starting the blog, because I was so bowled over by the stories I was hearing, and I just KNEW that these things would horrify Challies the way they were horrifying me. The second time I emailed him was several months later, maybe even a year into running the site.
Both times, I did get a response back from him. But his responses were noncommittal to the extreme. Meanwhile, he continued to “live blog” from SGM conferences and portray SGM, CJ, and Josh Harris in the most positive light possible.
I can’t remember now, but I may have emailed him a third time to remind him of the stories of abuse shared on the blogs and to ask him why it was that he continued to promote SGM and SGM pastors’ books while SGM would not permit Challies’ own book (The Discipline of Discernment, or some such) to be sold at SGM bookstores. If I got a response, it was just as nonchalant and unconcerned as always.
When Challies posted an article about the time he got to meet Josh Harris and have coffee with him (I think it was in the form of a fawning interview), I realized that Challies’ “discernment” only extends as far as it won’t affect his own rising star in the “young, restless, and Reformed” community…or – more importantly – his blogging ministry and his publishing career. (Challies’ latest book was just released, or is about to be released, if memory serves.)
When it comes to SGM, it seems like these Reformed guys are all in it together. They need each other to write endorsement blurbs for their books. And they are all star-struck.
Challies apparently has too much invested in his reciprocal relationships with SGM, CJ, and Josh Harris to employ his “discernment” skills in the same way that he did when he was going after Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven materials.
It’s really too bad.”
Deb
There must be a way to get these “big boys” to pay attention to what is happening out there.We get called uncharitable. What in the world do you call this nonsense? Yet SGM is held up as a model.If this is the model and we are considered uncharitable then, once again, I feel like Alice in Wonderland. And you know what happened the last time I fell down a hole.
“I, too, was a great admirer of his blog. Matter of fact, Tim’s writings were one of the main things that drove Guy and me to stick it out at our own SGM church for as long as we did. I viewed Challies as someone with excellent discernment and common sense.”
I read Challies for years…not always agreeing but giving the benefit of the doubt. I was drawn to him because he seemed to understand the problems in the seeker movement.. It was when he wrote his book on discernment that I took a closer look and did not like what I was seeing. .He was also attracting certain commenters that made my skin crawl. Guys who said the it pleased God to throw babies into hell. Those kinds of Calvinistas.
Never forget that Challies started making his living with this medium around that time and his “associations” are what bring in the money.
Don’t worry about the big boys and what they think. You are doing a great job warning their followers and admirers to follow Christ…not man. .
Lydia,
As you know, the YRR crowd has established quite an internet presence within the last five years or so.
TWW is just an “obscure blog” sounding the alarm about spiritual abuses we are discovering in Christendom.
If the YRR leaders will not hold each other accountable, then others must. Too many of our brothers and sisters in Christ are being hurt, and it breaks my heart.
Silence is NOT the answer, and I predict it will be their downfall.
That’s interesting – I know of one pastor of a not super-famous but somewhat sizable enough church who, while not necessarily denouncing Gary Ezzo, was willing to raise some concerns. And of course MacArthur himself.
I didn’t realize that after the scandal with their churches that the Ezzos even had a following except among still deluded young moms who were already rather inclined to that type of parenting from being raised that way themselves.
Dee,
You said, “Given the high number of reports of abuse in SGM, it would seem to us….”
How many instances of real, actual, proven cases of abuse are you talking about?
Also, you said above, “We are deeply concerned that SGM, under the watch of Mahaney, has spawned so many survivor-type blogs, along with widespread accusations of spiritual abuse that are rampant throughout the blogosphere. Here is a link…”
There are three “SGM survivor-type” blogs that have continuously focused on SGM over the past three years- TWW, and two others. And a small group of folks travel among these three blogs hashing and re-hashing the same accusations. I think your description above is exaggerated. And again, how many instances of proven cases of abuse are you talking about?
One reason I am asking is because there are 7000+ members of SGM, each one could present many testimonies of how God has used their SGM congregation to draw them closer to Jesus, along with many years of specific tesimonies of God’s faithfulness in their lives.
I believe you have greatly misrepresented SGM in what we do, who we are, and what we think. You are interpretting all that we do and say in the worse possible light. And you make assumptions and judgements that are not true.
And you end up publically abusing the 7000+ members of SGM.
Concerned2
7000? I keep forgetting how small SGM is after all these years.So many books, so many conference…. I wonder why?
You know that your argument is often used by actual cult groups (not saying SGM is one so don’t get you panties in a wad) in order to deflect criticism. For example, Scientology routinely states that nothing has been proven in spite of the large number of complaints against the organization. As you know, the majority of people leave groups in which they are mistreated and have no recourse to easily “prove” said statements.And then, there is the antigossip rule that could put a damper on current members from discussing what has occurred).
We are not saying SGM has been proven to be abusive. We just say that there are a fair number of complaints against SGM and that number, compared to the actual tiny membership (we have one nonSGM church in our area that has almost 7000 members) is interesting and one can raise concerns based on those alone.
BTW you should blame all the ex SGM members for their reports. It certainly seems as if SGM has miffed off a fair number of people along the way. Is this because SGM is “standing on the promises” and the rest of these folks are weenies who couldn’t take it?
Yesterday we had the privilege of meeting with a former very, very long time member of SGM. We asked this person if there is anything that we have discussed in this blog that is wrong. This person said that he/she concurs with our thoughts. But, I guess that absolute proof means a jury trial and judgment by an actual judge. I doubt you are that naive. Nothing has been proven. But, here is my question? Have you proven that all those who say there are no problems with SGM are correct?
How do you know that it is just a small group of people traveling around to the same sites? Do you have access to their IP addresses? I do have to admit that I am a bit concerned because you are utilizing a military address. Are you using military computers to trace the identities of the commenters?
Once again, why, after all these years, after all the books, music, name changes, sucking up to Reformed leaders, are there only @7000 members world wide?? Could there be something inherent in the “polity” of this group which is hindering growth? Or maybe the ones who are left are spiritual giants…
Now, if any of the SGM people would like to present a testimony in favor of SGM, have them contact us and we will post them. We are always interested in their side of the story. We would like to talk with them as well. In fact, arrange a meeting and we would be delighted to sit down and speak with one of the 7000.
Concerned 2
Here is a quote from Dave Harvey in regards to the number of churches in SGM
Me (having no more chips to protect me): About 80, or maybe it’s 90—I forget exactly.
Here is a link to that comment.
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/patience-pace-and-church-planting-part-1.aspx
Now, we know that CLC has 3000 members because that is what is often quoted.
So, let’s say Harvey is correct (he is the second in charge, isn’t he?) and there are 90 churches. Now to be fair, let’s subtract one church-CLC and their reported 3000 members. That leaves us with 89 churches and @4000 members worldwide.
That means that there are 44.9 members per church.
Having grown up in New England, where there are few Christians, I find that number surprisingly low, even by northern evangelical standards, for such a dynamic, kingdom building entity. Why is that?
Concerned2:
You raise a good point about the number of incidents vs. number of churches etc. That would be interesting information.
However, I think that what Dee and Deb have also done (and I do not always agree with them, as they will tell you) is highlight the theology and leadership structure of these churches etc.
My impression is that SGM churches put a lot of authority in the hands of their Apostles (now, apparently, no longer called Apostles), and that members in SGM churches experience a significant amount of personal scrutiny over their individual lives, including issues that are either none of the Apostles’ business or situations that call for the introduction of local authorities (e.g. the police etc.).
I get the impression that the Apostles, or whatever they are called now, would try to have a say so in dating relationships (sorry, courtship), marriage decisions, finances of couples, maybe their intimacy practices, schooling choices, parenting style, dress etc. SGM appears to be one of those Christian movements that has always been around that is known for a combination of restrictive lifestyles, the creation of a reactionary subculture (e.g. doing away with dating and replacing it with courtship), and intrusive behavior by the leadership in the day to day lives of the members.
I also get the impression that the average member in an SGM church doesn’t really get to speak his or her mind all that often, or if they did, there would be some discipline.
So, while you may be correct to point out that the numbers of criminally abusive sitations (e.g. the minor girl who was assaulted, and the local Apostles tried to keep the thing “in-house” and then tried to affect the court process) are small, the doctrine and organization of SGM churches is concerning.
It could be that lots of people agree to submit themselves to this type of church life, so they do not feel they are being abused in any way.
But objectively, the more and more I hear and read about some SGM practices, the more I believe that some significant changes need to be made.
Maybe getting rid of the “Apostle” designation is the start. I hope it is. And I hope more freedom and the Spirit of Christ will reign.
Dee,
Did you know that almost a year ago a couple of SGMers established a website soliciting positive testimonies about their “family of churches”?
Here’s their appeal to members of SGM churches:
“Do you have a story of God’s grace you want to share with SGM Letters? Send an email to story@sgmletters.com”
Let’s just say that there hasn’t been very much participation…
Here’s the link:
http://www.sgmletters.com/
anonymous,
Thank you for sharing your concerns about SGM with Concerned2. You have explained the problems extremely well. SGM used to be able to sweep these problems under the rug. No longer… The rules of the game have changed, much to the displeasure of SGM leadership, because of the internet.
And I appreciate the fact that you don’t always agree with us. That’s called iron sharpening iron.
Thanks for “getting it”. I wished the Reformed Big Dawgs did.
Concerned2,
This is the second time you have mentioned the 7,000 number.
My younger daughter attended a church near her college campus two Sundays ago, and she couldn’t get over how many people attend over the course of a weekend. It was well over 6,000! And it was not The Summit.
Concerned2,
The Quizzler has posted a list of questions on SGM Refuge. I believe that if someone in SGM leadership were to answer them honestly, it would shed some light on the serious problems in Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Here are just some of them. Would you care to respond?
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/17/sovereign-grace-church-of-chesapeake/comment-page-7/#comment-28575
“Questions to ask your SGM pastor……
1. Who are you accountable to?
2. Who determines your salary?
3. Who can fire you?
4. How does SGM view the Holy Spirit?
5. Whose name is on the deed for the church building?
6. How do you view marital separation in light of an abusive marriage?
7. Is there ever a valid reason for marital separation?
8. What is required of a person to be baptized?
9. How do you view dating?
10. What is your theological and educational background?
11. Have you been to a seminary? How long was it?
12. Do members of the church have a right to question the pastor on issues of doctrine, finances, personal behavior? If so, how would that be accomplished? Who would oversee that process?
13. What is your position in relationship to church members and God?
14. How do you view Christian ministries such as Campus Crusade for Christ, The Gideons …, etc ? Does the church support any of these ministries?
15. How can I become a lay leader in this church?
16. How do you view married women working outside the home? Does your wife work outside the home? Do any of the pastor’s wives work outside the home?
17. How do you view public school?
18. Where do your children go to school?
19. Of last year’s high school graduates from the church how many are in a 4 year college or university? How many are in the military? How many are in a trade?
20. What is the “Missions Fund”? What missions do those funds support?
21. Who are the elders in this church?
22. Are there any elected elders in this church?”
Concerned2, if even there were one that were damaged, that would be enough to get God’s attention. And ours, too.
You go ahead and stay with the 99. I’ll go after the one.
ah yes….the old, have you really proven any of these things deflection. Concerned, what would you consider “proof”. I am a former SGM member, attended for 10 years, helped plant one of their churches, and attended Dave Harvey’s and CJ’s church’s as well.
I could tell you my story, but then you’d probably say it’s just my side of it….and on and on it would go. You would consider my “testimony” invalid, until proven otherwise by a pastor etc…..
TWW is planning to publish the story of a woman/family kicked out of Dave Harvey’s church for simply challenging their use of Ezzo parenting materials. I can vouch for much of her story..
Anyway….I guess you’re reading, but I doubt you’ll respond, so farewell.
doubtful, you know db, too? OK, so one of these days I have to figure out who you are since we were in the same church at the same time.
Concerned2, yes, I knew the woman who was kicked out of Dave Harvey’s church as well. I can vouch for her story. Does that count for you? I can swear an affidavit if you’d like. Is that enough for you? I can bring in another family who were leaders in the church- they were in charge of children’s ministry for years- if leading children count enough for you. Dave Harvey told them that they had to repent because they believed that missions meant people actually going to some of the more unchurched lands to tell people that Jesus loved them. I can vouch for that story, too, Would that be enough for you? Or don’t these count because we have no video of such events.
Just remember, we’ll be here for you when it happens to you.
doubtful and Stunned,
I am currently reading through Gary Ezzo’s “self-published” (more on that tomorrow) book entitled On Becoming Babywise (2006 edition).
We are planning a series of posts to inform parents-to-be and anyone else of the harmful effects of Ezzo’s teachings. It has been a decade since he was called on the carpet by church leaders like John MacArthur, Christianity Today, and his former publisher, among others.
It’s time to alert those who have never heard of Ezzo – like my daughters. They are the main reason why I’m doing all this research. I DO NOT want my future grandchildren to be harmed by Ezzo’s faulty teaching.
Please let DB know that we would like to include her testimony in this series. She can e-mail it to me at deb@thewartburgwatch.com
Thanks!
Deb, I’ve just written to her.
Thank you Stunned. Together, we CAN make a difference!
“He told us that Greear asked him if Dee or Deb was his mother. Feeling uncomfortable he said, “No” and later sent him an email saying that he knew us and read our blog.”
Please clarify if this was a snide comment from Greear or a question based on a perceived correlation.
The fact the student became uncomfortable implies a certain tone in the question, I just want to clarify as it was not explicit.
Zeta
orionsbelt,
It’s amazing that Greear would ask that question (if Dee or Deb was his mother) in front of a room full of college students. They probably wondered why he wanted to know that.
My daughter wasn’t at that presentation because she attends the other college ministry group. Had she by chance been there it would have been interesting to hear her reaction to the exchange.
God works in mysterious ways!
I am more perplexed as to how this guy knew your names at all. Did Pastor A contact him?
Stunned
It would be reasonable to assume so.
OB
I don’t think it was meant in an untoward fashion. I think Greear may have been just as startled by the question as I was upon hearing about it.
But it sure was already in his craw (crawl?) or he wouldn’t have made the connection.
It’s awfully odd that Pastor A would contact this guy and give him your names. (In my opionion, if anyone cares.)
Stunned
It is realistic to assume that Greear already knew about the blog. We live in the same area and we get a boat load of readers from this part of NC.
Lydia
Thank you for the encouragement. I so wanted to get through. As anonymous said up above, maybe, just maybe, they are still reading.
The Ezzo’s are still big in the Patriarchal circles which are growing and encompassing places like SBTS. It used to be the fringe nuts like Doug Phillips and the Dominionists which are a lot like SGM.
I could care less if the charlatan leaders read you. I am praying their followers do! Without followers, these guys have nothing and they know it.
Actually Lydia, you couldn’t care less. Think about it…
My husband loves to catch people saying “I could care less” because that’s the opposite of what they mean.
Just couldn’t resist!
@OB: I think that you have misinterpreted the context of the question he asked. It wasn’t snide or anything like that to make me uncomfortable–it just sort of surprised me. He didn’t use their real names, either, just Dee and Deb. Not thinking of either “Dee” or “Deb” as such anywhere but here, it took me a second to figure out what he meant. It wasn’t in front of the entire room, either–I went up to talk with him afterwards, and it was one-on-one. He didn’t take a hostile or even impolite stance in relation to my questions, he just mentioned that they had asked about the same two books and was curious. Seems reasonable enough, I think–there certainly is a connection there, after all.
“Actually Lydia, you couldn’t care less. Think about it…
My husband loves to catch people saying “I could care less” because that’s the opposite of what they mean.
Just couldn’t resist!”
Wait until I write: Irreguardless. :o)
Stephen
Thanks for the clarification. That’s what I thought in terms of it not being negative, merely surprising. BTW-you are awesome.
Lydia
We may use your comments about love in our posts in the next couple of days. Well said. Love means asking after those harmed. Love means running after one of those sheep. It seems as if love is defined as expressed towards the pastors and not the sheep. How about a little love towards the lost and abused sheep?
Thanks Stephen,
That is what I wanted to clarify. The post I was responding to it (specifically the section I quoted) read to me a lot like it was a ‘put you in your place question’, but it wasn’t clear, it could just as easily have been just what you’ve clarified it actually was. I’m glad you have clarified, so now not only do I know the correct context, so do all the readers of this thread. I doubt I was the only one who read it that way … but I suppose I could be the lone fella that was mislead.
No worries … (leads into Hakuna Matata)
🙂
Zeta
Zeta
Hakuna Matata! That sounds like a song a few pastors might sing
Stephen,
Thanks for the clarification. What you described is exactly the interaction I imagined took place. I hope you have been having a great freshman year. My daughter graduates in May, and she has had a fantastic four years. Her secret has been finding some really great Christian friends (both male and female) who are serious about their faith. I’m so proud of all of them, and yes, most of them attend The Summit and love their pastor.
Lydia,
There’s a great restaurant in our town called the Irregardless. Now when I eat there or drive by I’ll think of you. 🙂
Isn’t there a country song called “I Love this Blog”? No, wait, that’s “bar” — but you get my drift.
I may have missed this earlier, so I apologize for being a poor student. When you originally contacted JD about the books recommended on his blog, and/or the difficulties you had with the sermon, what was his response? If this has already been discussed, please just point me to the link. I’ve got a lot of catchup reading to do after being offline for a while.
Thanks!
We were contacted by Pastor A.
The original post was in 11/09. We were just contacted by this pastor several weeks ago and we decided to respond to him. I think his intent was good but we disagreed a bit and that resulted in the last email he sent to us. We are trying to figure out how we could have communicated in a fashion in which he would have understood that this our concern is about hurting people in the church.