"Nothing is more dreaded than the national government meddling with religion." John Adams
Two years ago, my family was honored to travel to the Norway and Sweden homes of the families of my dear friends. Their families welcomed us with open arms and provided us with a unique look into the religious culture of these two countries. We spent three wonderful weeks seeing the fjords, mountains and cities, exploring by hikes, boats and autos.
This trip was made even more unique because my Norwegian hosts were raised in an evangelical household on the west coast of Norway. They were most open to questions about how the faith is lived out in the context of their culture. Both Norway and Sweden have a state religion, which is Lutheran.
Yet, the culture has turned decidedly against faith. According to a number of studies, less than 32% of the population of Norway believes in a generic god. Atheism and New Age spirituality claim the most adherents. Yet churches are everywhere and pastors abound. What is the problem?
As many of our readers know, I spend regular amounts of time reading a blog called new.exchristinas.net. I do so because these folks used to attend Christian churches and many label themselves former evangelicals. I am always curious to understand their anti-Christian views.
Recently, the following comment appeared under a post on mandatory religious education in the UK.
“To be honest, I wonder if this lack of separation is precisely why the UK, compared to the US, doesn't take Christianity that seriously.
I read somewhere that in much of Europe, the union of religion and politics is what led to many people dismissing or becoming distrusting of religion – they've seen its evils firsthand. We haven't, yet. So in the US, religion is still seen as harmless or even positive by many. I think living in a religiously-BASED (as opposed to religiously-dominated) society would change that after a while.”
http://new.exchristian.net/2010/07/god-in-school.html
However, I think the answer is found by exploring “government run” religion. Imagine this. The United States decides to embrace Presbyterianism as the “state religion.” In state based religions, the government appoints the heads of the church and these “heads” appoint the pastors. The government runs the seminaries and both pastors and professors are government employees. Now, think about our current Congress. What kind of individuals would be appointed by the likes of Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, and Al Franken, to name a few, to run this church?
Let’s look at a couple of current examples of incidents provoked by state run churches in Europe. Recently, the Crown Princess of Sweden, Victoria, got married. She wanted her father, the King, to walk her down the aisle. The archbishop of Sweden rejected her request because it was a “set back for women’s rights.” So her dad was “allowed” to walk with her halfway, when she was joined by her husband to be.
There are now powerful pastors, in various countries, who don’t even believe in God. Practicing homosexual pastors are commonplace, pastors often live with their girlfriends, and New Age spirituality is often practiced under the auspices of the “Christian” church.
A state sponsored church has not preserved the faith in Europe. In fact, the church looks no different than the current government du jour. While I was in Norway, same sex marriages became the law of the land. Pastors were going to forced to marry said couples. However, the King of Norway stepped in, a rare event that raised eyebrows, and said he would not allow the government to force pastors to marry same sex couples if it was against their belief. Imagine that-IF it was against their belief!
A pastor in Sweden was arrested, jailed, released and then threatened with more jail time for preaching on the Biblical view of homosexual behavior. That is considered a hate crime in that country.
http://chalcedon.edu/research/articles/swedish-pastor-faces-jail-for-preaching-against-homosexuality/
Years ago, my family made a decision to educate our kids in a private Christian school. My daughter was suffering from a malignant brain tumor and we decided we wanted the security of a Christian school during this traumatic time. Many people I knew were constantly fighting to “get prayer” back in the schools. However, when I asked them if they would accept the prayers of Muslims, Hindus, or even Wiccans, they became upset saying they meant “Christian” prayers.
But, we live in a country where freedom of religion is allowed. Note the fights over Christmas displays on government property. These days such displays not only have the Crèche but also Muslim, Kwanzaa, Jewish and even atheist displays. Can you imagine the prayers that would be allowed?
Europe has already proven the point that state sponsored religion does nothing to insure the faith through the generations. Might I even propose that state-sponsored religion has contributed to the loss of faith in Europe?
So here is the conundrum. We do not want (or do we) government run churches yet we want to preserve the free practice of religion. The United States has a broad base of support for the Christian faith. But, the times are changing. There will be attempts made to diminish the practice of faith in the United Sates.
We must be diligent to protect the freedom that we currently have. There are those who are looking for ways to outlaw the public expression of faith. Once again, I present a comment from the ex Christian site.
“I've toyed with the idea of raising the matter with the UN, who have set standards and rules for the care of children Worldwide regarding many issues related to the education and upbringing of children, including those of sexual, physical and mental abuse. In my view, instilling the fear of hell into children is gross mental abuse, as great an abuse as any other. It's a form of bullying, seeking control and power over young lives in an insidious way, leading to crippled emotions, lack of normal expression of thought, deed and ambition, with the vision of eternal life in a seething, boiling lake of fire after death as punishment for disobeying, or not believing in their god, or not complying with the demands of their religion as set down by their church leaders.
No child should be expected to live and grow up with any fear and no adult should be allowed to instill fear in a child for any reason even (least of all) religion. It's not even as if it's a standard teaching across all religious sects; so which religion is teaching the "truth"? The various sects can't seem to agree on what "hell" is, whether it's fire or everlasting death or if it's for all non-believers or just sinners, or just those who don't repent their sins, etc. The various sects all appear to differ in their interpretations of the bible and what hell means. Then, of course, we have the various stages after death; limbo, purgatory, judgment, creating even more fear. If a person chooses to believe in a god, then that's their choice, but they shouldn't have to be forced to take all the trappings along with that belief.
My view is that if religions cannot prove/substantiate that what they are teaching the children of this World is the truth and not just the writings of religious zealots of 2000 years ago, then they should forced to discontinue their teachings, especially when its fear that they are teaching”.
I am most interested to hear the viewpoints of our readers on this issue of “separation of church and state.” I am well aware that it is not in our law and that this phrase comes from a letter by Thomas Jefferson who did not hold to traditional Christian beliefs. Here is a link to explore his views on this issue.
On Thursday I plan to discuss how American patriotism is not the same thing as Christianity.
Just in time, Dee! I can not believe what I read on a friend’s facebook recently, implying that the Founding Fathers were Christians and wanted this to be a Christian nation! Granted, I grew up in Virginia where history is state pastime, but how can anyone who knows anything about history make such a statement? The framers were wise to demand that Congress make no law establishing a religion or prohibiting the free expression thereof.
Well … most of the Founding Fathers were Christians, and they purposefully based our government on a Christian world view and basic Christian principles. They did not want to establish any sort of official federal religion, but they did assume and desire that the basic principles of the Christian faith would remain a consistent influence on our government. That said, the concept that the church and the government (state) are separate entities, with separate spheres of power, is a biblical one, and the Founders were wise to ensure that neither would infringe on the other.
Oh my. Religion and Europe. CHRISTIANITY and Europe. As an exchange student I went into my life there somewhat quietly, it was only when people asked my opinions on such things that I ended up voicing my differences in religion. And I earned quite a few astonished looks for it.
I had a few discussions with my host family on Christianity. My host father was a blatant atheist and we ‘enjoyed’ quite a few late night talks about the subject. He told me on the subject of religion and the state that the German government kept religion not for the sake of teaching religion- but for the sake of teaching morals.
In my time in Germany I noticed many Germans who said they were Christians did not hold true to what Americans consider ‘basic’ standards of Christianity. The major one being abstinence before marriage.
This is exactly why Islam, if practiced as taught in the Koran/Hadith, cannot peacably coexist with our Constitution. As bin Laden said, more Muslims should read the Koran and do their duty.
Please understand that making that factual statement above does not mean I hate Muslims or want them in internment camps as some silly bloggers have suggested.
Most Muslims do not know the Koran. However, we do know that many radical Muslims were raised in moderate Muslim homes in the ME and became radical after living in the West. A look at the bios of the 9/11 Terrorists shows that is true.
…I try to stay out of debates of whether the Founders were believers or not because anyone can state they are a believer and not be saved. Look at Franklin, one who behaved the least as a believer… is the one who exhorted the Convention to seek God in prayer.
But, consider this, almost all education at the time…even beginning reading… was Bible based.
This is one reason so many today cannot understand literature because it uses so many Biblical metaphors.
So whether they were ardent practicing belivers or not, one can be assured they subscribed to the basic Christian values from which they gave us the product of the Constitution.
Lydia, I agree. I used the term “Christian” in the common usage of professed association with the Chrstian reigion, not necessarly in the technical, biblical sense of genuine, regenerated believers.
Lydia, again, I agree. The reason Islam as taught in the Qur’an is fundamentally incompatible with our Constitition and our freedoms, is because those things are based on a Chrstian world view and values.
Basic things that we take from granted as the way people should behave and relate to others, such as treating others like you’d want to be treated, and exercising self control over our emotions and instincts, are not valued in the same way in cultures that are heavily infuenced by Islam.
Not recognizing such major differences in world view and values is a huge mistake — one that is being made by too many American politcians and Christians.
I believe that those conflicting value systems is one reason that some Muslims become more radicalized after living in the West. The contrast becomes evident to them when exposed to the differences, and the resulting cognitive dissonance can lead to a move to more fully embrace the full implications of their religion’s inherently radical and violent nature.
I mean, it would be like a Klingon being raised human parents!
Actually, our Constitution and most of our laws are based on the Magna Carta and English common law. Many state constitutions refer to the English common law. A common law system is the sum total of all of the decisions in cases that have been decided in the past in the jurisdiction or in a referent jurisdiction or jurisdictions. That means that the legal system, of whatever degree of sophistication, works on the basis of precedent, with the precedent being set by previous courts, whether juries or judges.
Thus the Constitution does not define murder or adultery. Most such are barred by statutes which have been adopted to make clear some issue that the common law left unclear or to establish a systematic and fair punishment. There is no statutory or common law that bars coveting, for example, which is a Ten Commandments sin.
Yes, the Constitution was greatly influenced by legal precedent and prior documents (like the Magna Carta). As England had become Christianized, the principles of Christianity became very much a part of that precedent. The Magna Carta makeds plain that the liberties it seeks to guarantee are based in the Christian faith.
The Constitutions Framers also drew from the governmental principles and practices of ancient Rome and Greece. They were were very knowledgable of history and chose the best elements of what had gone before as they framed the new US government.
I believe that the basic principles of the Constitution (popular sovereignty, separation of powers, republicasnism, limited government, federalism, checks and balances, and individual rights) all find their origin in the basic values and human rights that result from the application of biblical Christianity.
ARCE, Lydia, Junkster
I am getting a crash course in laws and history with this incredible discussion. We are getting ready to post a page with some explanation as to who we are. On it we have some books that we like. Is there a book or two you can recommend, pertinent to this discussion? I also want to read more myself so this is also selfish.
Junkster
Wasn’t Worf raised by human parents after the Kittimer (?sp) disaster?
Indeed — and he never really fit into either human or Klingon society. The two just can’t ever be completely reconcilled. 🙂
I recommend The 5000 Year Leap, by W. Cleon Skousen.
Shadowspring,
I agree (if that’s what you’re saying) that the founders never intended to found a Christian nation, no matter what Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin might say.
The Declaration and the Constitution have far more in common with the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason than they do with Biblical Christianity. If anything, Romans chap. 13 argues that the signers of the Declaration are now consigned to perdition for their role in the rebellion against King George.
I think that much of what David Barton , D. James Kennedy, and others teach about our so called “Godly heritage” is just a wistful longing for a past that never was.