Books, Movies, TV, etc

Under development

 

Science Fiction

The Sparrow– Mary Dora Russell -Amazon link

Out of the Silent Planet (trilogy) CS Lewis -Amazon link

Lamb Amongst the Stars(trilogy) -Chris Walley -Amazon link

       -Dee's personal favorite

The Arena– Karen Hancock-Amazon link

The Ingathering-The Complete Stories of the People– Zenna Henderson-Amazon link

Mind Game

The Reality Chronicles: RL Copple

Reality's Dawn:

Reality's Ascent

Ethereal Worlds Anthology 

 

 

Fiction:

Georgette Heyer-author

When Sparrows Fall-Meg Moseley


Comments

Books, Movies, TV, etc — 97 Comments

  1. You absolutely HAVE to see The Last Sin Eater. The book was written by Francine Rivers and the movie was produced by Michael Landon JUNIOR. It has suspense, a murder, covers old traditions and is a haunting story about a little girl in Appalachia. PLEASE see it, and I know you will like it, and then can tell about it on the blog so others can see it as well. It is beautifully produced and acted. My new favorite, now TO Kill A Mockingbird is number TWO.

  2. Jim Butcher’s “Dresden Files” is a rather fascinating series of urban fantasy novels. While they’re definitely not “Christian fiction”, they provide a gripping portrayal of a man trying to do right in a world filled with darkness, including in part his relationship with God (still not really resolved). It also contains one of the finest portrayals of a true Christian that I’ve read in fiction, in the form of Michael Carpenter, a knight wielding a sword containing one of the nails from the One True Cross. Content-wise it certainly doesn’t fit into the bubble of Christian fiction, though it’s not exactly gratuitous either, especially in consideration of its genre. Overall, some of the best I’ve read, with a whole lot of books written and a whole lot left to come as well.

  3. In light of all the horrible things that need discussion, I do feel some guilt for asking, but here goes……Is is possible to occasionally post on Falling Skies when it starts again? I don’t know anyone IRL that likes it as much as I do, and not just because Noah Wyle is totes adorbs…..

  4. I highly recommend the movie: “The Secrets of Jonathan Sperry.” While it won’t go down in history as a classic and may seem a little slow moving at first, it is well worth watching to the end. I can’t imagine anyone not being touched by this movie.

  5. Evelyn Christianson,”battling The Prince Of Darkness.” The Pink Swastika”, by Scott Lively. “The Call”, by Os Guiness. “Peace Like A River”, by Leif Enger

  6. @ ForgivenMuch:
    I completely agree with you except on one small thing – I think it will become a classic film within the Christian movie genre. We took our kids to see it at the theater when it came out – really believe the Holy Spirit opened the doors to get this film into secular theaters, no one left with dry eyes. Such a moving story on the power of love and forgiveness!

  7. Movie and book, Hell and Mr. Fudge. the book is ‘Hell a final word’ by Edward Fudge. Basically his life story and how he came to the conclusion that eternal torment is not a scriptural concept, rather total destruction/death. Also ‘Hypergrace’ by Michael Brown phd.

  8. @ StephenC:
    I love Dresden! I completely agree about Michael. Though I will say that I was startled to see an Urban Fantasy reference here. Maybe I shouldn’t have been.

  9. I have been reading and reviewing the book, Jesus Calling by sarah young. It concerns me that she uses Jesus speaking to her in the first person???!!!! Only the apostles, Moses, David, etc. were given words inspired by God, am I correct? Does it mean anybody who chooses her approach can dictate words directly from the mouth of Jesus? Appreciate your thoughts.

  10. margaret pikey wrote:

    It concerns me that she uses Jesus speaking to her in the first person???!!!!

    Hi Margaret! If I may chime in…

    At the very least, if someone makes a claim to have heard from Jesus directly, you have a case of extra-Biblical revelation. That is to say you have an example of the Eternal Word speaking outside of the revealed Word of God (a.k.a. the Bible) to a single human. One has to ask, for what reason did this event occur?

    Problem: It is completely unverifiable. If you question it, you can be accused of everything from doubting God to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The fear of questioning (for the one who makes the claim) offers a type of protection if you think about it.

    A lot of authors, preachers, and pastors use the phrase “The Lord told me…” or something like that. So one needs to do a little digging to find out exactly what that means. Did they hear an audible voice? Did the actually see Jesus with their physical eyes and He spoke to them? How did this happen? Were there witnesses?

    It all comes down to the question of revelation outside of the pages of Scripture, and if you believe that revelation takes place today.

    Personally, I am very leery of anyone who makes the claim that God spoke to them. I do not accept the concept of extra-Biblical revelation primarily because of what the writer of Hebrews opens with regarding Jesus, the Book of Revelation, and the fact that Christians are just not very good at listening to what God has already said. Do we really need more revelation anyway when we don’t pay attention to God in the first place? I wonder. However, like all questions of this type, and our faulty conclusions, your mileage may vary…

    So here is your chance to do some investigation, ask questions, and come to your own conclusion. I would be interested to hear what you come up with.

  11. I went and saw Ridley Scott’s new movie Exodus: gods and kings. Some blogs are abuzz over it. I’ve read everything from how it’s insensitive to the plight of African Americans, to an almost absolute certainty that the Exodus is pure myth and never happened. Big eye-roll to them all. Does everything on the silver screen always have to have an ideological screed stretched over it nowadays? I for one was thoroughly entertained by the skill and artistry of one of better film makers (Scott) in the business.

  12. What? No more contributors for this thread? C’mon y’all we could have a rollicking good time here!

  13. @ Muff Potter:

    Ok, hello! Thanks for directing us to this thread. I am a sucker for book reccomendations.

    Right now I am reading x”Without Conscience: the Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us” by Robert D. Hare, PhD.

    I find it fascinating in light of all the stuff that’s going on in the leadership of evangelical Christianity these days. Maybe some of these leaders aren’t true psychopaths, but I believe they would score high on the Psychopathy Test.

    This book is as good as “The Sociopath Next door” By _____ Stout but is actually more in-depth IMO.

  14. @ Bilbo Skaggins:

    I’ll have to have a look see. I just finished Joshua Greene’s Moral Tribes Greene teaches at Harvard and the main thesis of his book is that humans have a common moral currency regardless of race, culture, or religion.

  15. I will check it out. My wife rolls her eyes, but I am fascinated by mental aberrations in certain people as well as biographies/autobiographies.

    I’m also looking for something I can read to my 8 yo daughter as well. She loves mysteries and fantasy but I suspect that Harry Potter is a little too teenage/adult for her. I just started “Portal through the Pond” by David K Anderson and she seems to like it. It is the first in a series of four (so far). I’d like any suggestions.

  16. @ Albuquerque Blue:

    For the most part yes I do agree with Greene and here’s why:
    He attempts to strike a careful balance between emotion and reason; black and white absolutism based on tribal mores vs. a reasonable pragmatism based on, but not solely upon the utilitarian model. More than anything else (in my opinion) Greene’s treatise is a good guidebook for conflict resolution based on the the tried and true principles of consensus and compromise. Not for Crusaders and Jihadists, but for the rest of us I think Greene makes sense.

  17. I just finished reading All the Light We Cannot See a novel by Anthony Doerr. The guy truly is a wordsmith extraordinaire and I can see why his novel won the 2015 Pulitzer Prize for fiction.

  18. @ Muff Potter:
    I read this a few weeks ago, and agree completely! Truly a superb book.

    Right now, I’m reading Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms, by Gerard Russell. Highly recommended to folks here, especially because his focus is on the vanishing minority religions (and people who practice them) in the Middle East (Arab countries, Iran, even Pakistan and Afghanistan). Though I do wish he had said more on the Copts.

  19. @ numo:

    You might like the film Woman in Gold, I know I sure did! Helen Mirren plays a Jewess who escaped Vienna and the Nazis as a young woman while the gittin’ was good. Needless to say her family left behind didn’t fare so well and all their art and jewelry was stolen by the Nazis, very common for those horrific times. Anyway she and a young attorney sue the Austrian government to get her family treasures back. Charles Dance has a minor role in the film, as distinguished and stately as always. I looooooove Helen Mirren, always have. It’s a good movie, so much more engaging than a lot of the trash out there.

  20. @ brad/futuristguy,

    I’m hoping that Herbert & Anderson will continue on with their Dune novellas. What I’d really like to see is a fuller expansion of how the Guild came to be, starting with Norma Cenva. She and the Guild are touched on only teasingly in their previous works.

  21. A great documentary on HBO about the obesity epidemic in adults and children in the U.S., excellent medical and scientific research, stories of people who have serious health problems from same, and inspirational stories of those who kicked it into gear and made serious changes and have improved health!

    http://theweightofthenation.hbo.com/

  22. Muff Potter wrote:

    I’m hoping that Herbert & Anderson will continue on with their Dune novellas. What I’d really like to see is a fuller expansion of how the Guild came to be, starting with Norma Cenva. She and the Guild are touched on only teasingly in their previous works.

    My understanding is that a focus on the Guild will be the final book in the prequel trilogy of the “Great Schools of Dune.” Publication date looks to be May 2016-ish, with probable title of Navigators of Dune.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_prequel_series#Great_Schools_of_Dune

    http://www.amazon.com/Navigators-Dune-Brian-Herbert/dp/142727343X

    My plan is to read the entire saga in chronological order — after I finish my own mega-project of this curriculum series. Maybe it’ll be done by May of next year …

  23. Max’s insightful comment yesterday on 8/15/15 about New Calvinism on a blog post here on TWW:

    Education does not produce one ounce of revelation. Flesh controls New Calvinism, not the Spirit. Just a bunch of flesh babies rebelling against the way their parents do church. Intellectual, but not very smart. They pride themselves on being reformed, but have not been transformed by the love of Christ.

  24. @ brad/futuristguy:

    Thanx brad !
    I look forward to when Navigators will be available in hardcover.
    I have always been fascinated by Norma Cenva and her story. How Tio Holtzman stole her Mathematics, made it his own, and used it for his own aggrandizement.
    Cenva is one of my fictional heroines.

  25. Commenter/poster/author/researcher Barb Orlowski, Canada, (blog is Church Exiters) posted these books on 8/25/15 on another Wartburg Watch article regarding the whole comp discussion as recommended reading.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I would like to recommend three books by Susanna Krizo which attempt to expose the Complementarian agenda.

    *“Recovering From Un-Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Patriarchy”

    “Recovering From Un-Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Patriarchy” examines the main arguments in an easy-to-read dialogue format that allows the reader to reach his/her own conclusions while enjoying a deep, yet lighthearted, theological discussion.

    Here is an excerpt from one book review:

    “Thank God for Susanna Krizo! She makes complicated theology easy and fun to read. This is one of the most entertaining books we’ve ever read. At times it is so funny that you find yourself laughing and having a good time, and totally forget that theology is usually a dull topic to read! What we love most about her writing is that she works so hard to develop a full logical argument, address both sides of an issue, and really thinks things through to reasonable conclusions, all the while staying faithful to the Bible. Many theologians don’t like answering questions because they don’t really want to think things through because then their conclusions fall apart. But the Bible says “come let us reason together” because we need to really test all doctrine before accepting it. That’s what this book does so well.”

    *“When Dogmas Die: The Return of Biblical Equality”

    “When Dogmas Die” begins with a comprehensive look at Genesis 3:16 and the view that women are born inferior.

    Book Quote: “Always ask why—not who, but why—for if you ask who gave the man authority over the woman, you may not find out why the man was given the authority, but if you ask why the man was given authority over the woman, you will find that it was the man’s idea.

    Book Review Excerpt:

    “When Dogmas Die” is a stunning critique of one of the great handbooks of Patriarchy in the Church: “Restoring Biblical Manhood and Womanhood,” the collection of essays on gender roles compiled by John Piper and Wayne Grudem.

    Grudem is considered a scholar by many in the church, so it comes as quite a surprise to find his work so tainted with errors and omissions, as this book aptly demonstrates and documents.

    The subjection of women by men began as a result of the fall in the garden, and Krizo begins the book with a Chapter entitled “Genesis 3:16” to prove that point, and to show why Piper and Grudem’s attempt to teach a God-ordained hierarchy prior to the fall is in error.
    *“Genesis 3: The Origin of Gender Roles”

    Book Review Excerpts:

    “Witty and insightful, Susanna Krizo’s new book joins an ever-growing body of literature calling for the full recognition of women’s equality in all corners of the Christian faith. Challenging patriarchal assumptions carried over from ancient cultures, Krizo paints a picture of women and men sharing authority and celebrating what it means to be created in the image of God.”

    “If the creation account doesn’t mention the man’s authority, and if Ephesians 5 instructs husbands to love their wives the way they love themselves instead of exercising authority over them, why do our theologians nevertheless insist that Ephesians 5 confirms that the man was given authority over the woman as part of creation” (from Chapter 7)

    “The answer is simple: because men desire to rule women as a consequence of sin and no longer love their wives the way humans were created to love — unselfishly.” (from Chapter 7)

    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_13/185-3355441-8987659?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=susanna+krizo&sprefix=susanna+krizo%2Cstripbooks%2C277

  26. Some books dealing with Spiritual Abuse, to add to the others already mentioned here:

    Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse by Mary Alice Chrnalogar (has spent 20-years helping people break free of destructive churches and helping their families)

    Healing Spiritual Abuse: How to Break Free From Bad Church Experiences by Ken Blue

    The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing & Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen

    Churches That Abuse by Dr. Ronald Enroth (famous book that he has made available for free now in electronic form), here:
    http://www.ccel.us/churches.toc.html

    Recovering from Churches That Abuse by Dr. Ronald Enroth (his other famous book that he has made available for free in electronic form), here:
    http://www.ccel.us/churchesrec.toc.html

  27. For folks desiring to get your heads around TWW comments pertaining to the ails of reformed theology (Calvinism), I recommend a couple of books pertaining to the essential tenets of Calvinism and its 21st century progeny, “New” Calvinism, that is causing so much trouble in Christian ranks. Both are scholarly works, but written in a way that you can grasp the problem and begin to see it being manifested where you live … no doubt about it, New Calvinism is coming to a church near you!

    “What Love is This? Calvinism’s Misrepresentation of God” by Dave Hunt
    http://www.amazon.com/What-Love-This-Calvinisms-Misrepresentation/dp/1928660126/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1441373495&sr=8-3&keywords=What+love+is+this%3F+dave+hunt

    “Against Calvinism” by Roger Olson
    http://www.amazon.com/Against-Calvinism-Roger-E-Olson/dp/031032467X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441373730&sr=8-1&keywords=Against+Calvinism+roger+olson

    One of the first articles that caught my attention about “New Calvinism” continues to be a good read on the subject, even if it is becoming dated a bit on the who’s-who of the current movement (TWW is doing a fine job flagging some of the new folks on the scene and problems associated with their ministries). You can find the article at:

    “Young, Restless, Reformed: Calvinism is making a comeback—and shaking up the church” by Collin Hansen
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/september/42.32.html

  28. @ Velour:
    Looks like Christianity Today put the article I cited into limited view, by subscription only. Must have received too many hits! Too bad, that was a good intro to New Calvinism, as it emerged onto the scene about 10 years ago.

  29. Max wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Looks like Christianity Today put the article I cited into limited view, by subscription only. Must have received too many hits! Too bad, that was a good intro to New Calvinism, as it emerged onto the scene about 10 years ago.

    Max wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Looks like Christianity Today put the article I cited into limited view, by subscription only. Must have received too many hits! Too bad, that was a good intro to New Calvinism, as it emerged onto the scene about 10 years ago.

    Thanks, Max. I have access to a database that gives me access to all kinds of magazines, academic journals, etc. I will try to read the full article through that.

  30. I highly recommend “Blight In the Vineyard: Exposing the Roots, Myths, and Emotional Torment of Spiritual Tyranny” by John Immel.

    The book was specifically written in response to Immel’s experience in Sovereign Grace churches, specifically Covenant Life Church, but it has broad application to all churches run by a heavy-handed authoritarian pastor. My former 9Marx/Mark Dever type church in Dubai (United Christian Church of Dubai) is in this category.

    http://www.amazon.com/Blight-Vineyard-Exposing-Emotional-Spiritual/dp/0985271310/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441688266&sr=8-1&keywords=blight+in+the+vineyard

  31. Recommended article by Baptist pastor Wade Burleson, The Wartburg Watch’s EPastor on Sundays, on the whole comp doctrine/patriarchy and the Eternal Subordination of the Son:
    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/06/eternal-subordination-and-sbc-divorce.html

    “Here’s the catch. Southern Baptist leaders have made the tragic error of believing that a husband should rule and a wife should be submissive because the Bible demands it. Truth be known, the Bible calls any desire to control and dominate–be it the husband or the wife– “the curse.” The divorce rate increases when Southern Baptists call “the norm” what the Bible calls “the curse.” When the first man (Adam) sought to rule over the first woman (Eve), Adam was manifesting a curse, not meeting a commandment (Genesis 3:16).

    Jesus came to reverse the curse. Redemption causes curse-filled people to become grace-filled people. Those who seek to rule over others by exerting authority, when they come to see what Jesus says about life, will turn loose of trying to control other people and will only seek to love and serve, NEVER exerting any alleged authority. Again, Jesus said that “the Gentiles lord over others” and “exert authority,” but “it shall not be this way among you” (Matthew 20:24-26).

    Southern Baptist Convention leaders have wrongly pushed for men to lord their authority over their wives, and called on wives to submit to the authority of their husbands because of a belief in and promotion of “the eternal subordination of the Son.” I’ve written about this doctrinal problem among Southern Baptists for years, but I recently came across a brilliant article by Dr. Keith Johnson (Ph.D. Duke), the director of theological development for Campus Crusade for Christ. Johnson’s article is called Trinitarian Agency and the Eternal Subordination of the Son: An Augustinian Perspective.”

    Dr. Keith Johnson’s article:
    http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/journal-issues/36.1/Themelios36.1.pdf#page=9

  32. A website recommended by someone who posts here and over at the Spiritual Sounding Board. This is called Finding a Healing Place by Clara Hinton.
    It deals with the topic of sexual abuse in the church.

    http://www.findingahealingplace.com/

    Also here is Clara’s son Pastor Jimmy Hinton giving an excellent workshop on child sexual abuse and its prevention.
    http://www.findingahealingplace.com/resources-that-will-help/

    Jimmy Hinton turned in his pastor/father for sexually abusing children at the church they have both pastored. The father is now serving a life sentence in prison.

    The Hinton family has bravely tackled the topic of child sexual abuse and not lied or covered up for a pedophile in their own family. Instead the Hintons have ministered to victims of sexual abuse in their church community and at other churches.

    http://www.post-gazette.com/local/east/2015/03/22/Christian-minister-Jimmy-Hinton-teaches-churches-to-guard-against-pedophiles-like-his-father-John-Wayne-Hinton/stories/201503220056

  33. Refugee’s helpful instructions for those who would like to bold and italicize on The Wartburg Watch.

    refugee UNITED STATES on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:55 PM said:

    Janet Varin wrote:

    (I capitalized the last paragraph because I don’t know how to modify the font on these comments.)

    Janet, just fyi

    When you highlight some text and quote it, look at how it appears in the comment box before you post. See the [blockquote] and [/blockquote] bracketing the text? The principle is the same for bold and italicized text.

    You italicize by typing a less-than-sign, followed by the letters em, followed by a greater-than sign.

    Then type the text. Then close the special font (see next line).

    To close, you type a less-than-sign, a slash that goes from lower left to upper right, then the letters em, then the greater-than-sign.

    It would look something like this (if it works in this medium)
    I am going to quote with [em]italicized text[/em] and everything else will be normal text.

    To bold, you simply put the word strong in place of (in the italics instructions) the letters em.
    I am going to emphasize with [strong]bold text[/strong] and everything else will be as usual.

    Just replace the square brackets with angle brackets (less-than and greater-than symbols). And don’t forget to close the special text, or *everything* that follows will be bolded and/or italicized. It can be tricky.

    Hope this helps.

  34. Thanks Velour, it’s true, I have written a few books on the subject of equality, loving our neighbors, and how to live all of that. I’m glad you found the recommendation useful :)

  35. Any Blacklist fans here? I gave up the glass teat (TV) some years back because the quality got as bad as an African waterhole with nothing but crocs in it.
    Finally! Somebody hired some writers who can actually write for more than just a bevy of pretty people with perfect teeth and little more.
    James Spader is awesome as Raymond Reddington.
    I never miss an episode.

  36. Susanna Krizo wrote:

    Thanks Velour, it’s true, I have written a few books on the subject of equality, loving our neighbors, and how to live all of that. I’m glad you found the recommendation useful

    Thanks, Susanna! I and others appreciate your work. We are trying to consolidate resources that people will find helpful. If you have recommendations, please add them to this page.

  37. Good movies seem to be few and far between nowadays.
    I just went and saw Bridge of Spies and I think it fits the bill as one of the better flicks.
    Tom Hanks is magnificent!

  38. “I experienced what you are experiencing when I first looked into the theory of divine determinism. Jerry Walls’ lecture at Evangel University “What’s Wrong With Calvinism?” was of great help in dealing with it. It is on Youtube. Roger Olson has some excellent material on the topic on his blog and the website of the Society of Evangelical Arminians is exceptionally helpful.” – John D on 5/14/15 on TWW

  39. Recommended by Max on 5/15/16:

    Other good resources on the ails of Calvinism are “What Love is This? Calvinism’s Misrepresentation of God” by Dave Hunt and Roger Olson’s “Against Calvinism.”

  40. Leonard Verduin’s “The Reformers and Their Stepchildren” is a scholarly work that sheds light on the shenanigans of Calvin and his followers and also reveals who the true reformers were … the Anabaptists (the stepchildren).

  41. Posted by Ken F. on May 15, 2016:

    From Piper’s website today: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/no-power-of-hell-no-scheme-of-man

    This particulate theory of atonement was invented during the reformation. If true, it means that the church got it wrong for 1500 years. Some go so far as to say one cannot be a Christian without believing this theory, which means there were no true Christians until about 500 years ago.

    So let’s take a look at the theory. First the definition:
    Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.
    http://www.theopedia.com/penal-substitutionary-atonement

    Now let’s ask where to find all of this from the Bible. I developed this list of questions about six months ago. I based it mostly on the above definition, but just about any definition will due. So far I have yet to get any convincing arguments that Penal Substitution is true based on answers to these questions.

    1. Where does the Bible explicitly state that on the cross Jesus bore the punishment that we deserved?
    2. Where does the Bible explicitly state that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins? To whom was the penalty paid?
    3. Where does the Bible explicitly state that Jesus satisfied the wrath of God?
    4. Where does the Bible explicitly state that God’s wrath can and must be satisfied?
    5. Where does the Bible explicitly state that God cannot forgive without first being appeased?
    6. Where does the Bible explicitly state that God cannot simply forgive without compromising His own holy standard?
    7. How is it justice to punish the innocent in place of the guilty? (see Deuteronomy 24:16 – Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin)
    8. How can an infinite being, who needs or lacks nothing, be unsatisfied based on human sin and then consequently satisfied by sacrifice? If God’s wrath can be satisfied, how does it not imply that God lacked something prior to being satisfied? What did the satisfaction change about God (e.g., His mood?, His attitude?, His disposition?)?
    9. Was God’s wrath fully satisfied or partially satisfied? Where does the Bible state this?
    10. If fully satisfied, why does the Bible describe it as something that remains for unbelievers? (see John 3:36 – He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.)
    11. If fully satisfied, why does the Bible describe it as something that will still be poured out in the last days? (see Rev 16:1 – Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”)
    12. How does full satisfaction not logically lead to universalism, since there is no wrath left for anyone to endure if it was fully satisfied?
    13. If not fully satisfied, what distinguishes the wrath that was satisfied from the wrath that was not satisfied? Where does the Bible most clearly state this?
    14. If not fully satisfied, what was “finished” on the cross? (see John 19:30 – Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.)
    15. Since we have been crucified with Christ, did we also participate in satisfying God’s wrath by being punished with Him? Why or why not? If we were not punished with Him, in what essential way were we united with Christ in the likeness of His death? (see Romans 6:5 – For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death; see also Romans 6:6 – knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him; and see Galatians 2:20 – I have been crucified with Christ)
    16. Was our debt fully paid by Jesus or fully forgiven by God? If fully forgiven, what was left to be paid and what was accomplished on the cross? If fully paid, what was left to be forgiven? Or was it partially paid and partially forgiven. How is it just to forgive a debt by requiring payment? Doesn’t forgiveness negate the requirement for payment?
    17. If the penalty for our sins is eternal separation from the Lord (see 2 Thessalonians 1:9 – These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power), how could Jesus pay that penalty? How would it not require Him to be eternally separated from Himself? Where does the Bible say that Jesus paid an eternal debt or suffered eternal destruction or suffered eternal separation from Himself or the Father?
    18. What does it mean for God to command us to forgive others in the same way that He forgave us? (see Ephesians 4:32 – Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.) Does God needing to vent His wrath as payment before He can forgive us mean that we must also vent our wrath as payment in order to forgive others? Does God hold us to a higher standard than He holds himself? Why or why not?

  42. Posted by Ken F. on May 15, 2016:

    As a companion to the questions I posted above, here is a list of some of the better links I found over the last year that critique penal substitution. It’s a lot of reading.

    http://preachersinstitute.com/2011/06/02/orthodox-problems-with-penal-substitution/
    http://www.pravmir.com/the-original-christian-gospel/
    http://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/gods-righteousness
    http://reknew.org/2014/06/why-did-god-require-animal-sacrifice-in-the-old-testament/
    http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-christus-victor-view-of-the-atonement/
    http://www.throwbackchristianity.com/leviticus-1711-and-penal-substitution/
    http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2011/11/09/the-recapitulation-theory/
    https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2014/02/24/the-death-of-jesus-as-sacrifice-an-orthodox-reading-of-isaiah-53-and-romans-325/
    http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/ReardonExpatiation.php
    http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=35999.0
    http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2007/09/21/whats-at-stake-in-the-atonement/
    http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2011/02/biblical-view-of-christs-death.html
    https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-symbol-of-faith/redemption
    http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_wrath_of_god
    http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A.php?c=Salvation-Blood+Sacrifices+and+Forgiveness
    http://www.antiochian.org/node/17816
    http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/46463.htm
    http://therebelgod.com/AtonementFathersEQ.pdf
    http://therebelgod.com/CrossPaper.pdf
    http://www.biblical-theology.net/ANTI-PENAL%20SUBSTITUTION.htm
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2012/06/22/the-wrath-of-god-satisfied/
    https://fullermag.fuller.edu/christus-victor-the-salvation-of-god-and-the-cross-of-christ/
    http://www.covenantoflove.net/theology/the-problem-with-christus-victor-part-1/
    http://formerfundy.blogspot.com/2010/08/george-macdonald-on-penal-substitution.html
    http://bjorkbloggen.com/2013/03/15/the-penal-substitution-theory-is-not-biblical-youtube-film-about-the-atonement-of-christ/
    http://www.academia.edu/2019111/Punishing_and_Atoning_A_New_Critique_of_Penal_Substitution
    http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2011/09/why-i-cannot-in-good-conscience-be-a-protestant/
    http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/why-im-becoming-orthodox-2-of-3/
    http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2007/07/why-do-so-many-catholics-believe-in.html
    http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2014/04/does-catholic-view-of-christs-atonement.html

  43. Posted by Todd W. on May 17, 2016:

    I think it was Brad the futurist guy that recommended a book to me titled “The Shepherding Movement: Controversy and Charismatic Eccliesiolgy” by S. David Moore.

    I am currently reading the book and the similarity between 9Marx and the Shepherding movement is erie. It is almost as if Dever has lifted all the Shepherding concepts and repackaged them for our day.

  44. Brad/FuturistGuy posted this on May 23, 2016:

    After doing some background research, the book I picked as probably the best one for overall history and analysis is *The Shepherding Movement: Controversy and Charismatic Ecclesiology* by S. David Moore.
    http://www.amazon.com/Shepherding-Movement-Pentecostal-Theology-Supplement/dp/0826471609/
    It would be really helpful to have a summary of key activities and indicators that demonstrate the presence of an underlying pro-Shepherding/authoritarian discipleship paradigm, and what contemporary groups function from that paradigm, and the history of the who and how that system got into those groups. I don’t yet know of any books that cover those details. Maybe a group can take that on sometime …

  45. Posted by Brad/FutuistGuy on May 23, 2016:

    I thought about some key indicators, and remembered that a lot of them are in the lists for this post I wrote on “Calvinistas” a few years ago. Although Shepherding-type authoritarianism isn’t only in Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritan or Pentecostal settings, there is a common paradigm of thinking that always separates things into classes and categories, and that similarity goes far deeper than the doctrinal differences.
    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/calvinistas/
    FWIW, here’s a bullet list of some of the items on those lists, and I’ll leave the descriptions of them over there.
    * Dualism
    * Reductionism
    * Perfectionism
    * Patriarchalism
    * Totalism and Authoritarianism
    * Dominionism
    About the only other thing I think I’d add to this is something having to do with the ways these groups tend to “collaborate.” If they engage in ministry partnerships at all, it’s like to be where there is high overlap on those other essential approaches to thinking processes, systems, personal growth or behavior modification, authority and subservience, and stance toward culture. And the rest of the churches-theologians-Christians are labeled as either non-gospel, heretical, etc.

  46. Posted by Velour on 5/23/16:

    Has anyone here read Jerome D. Frank’s book Persuasion and Healing?
    (He was a professor of Psychiatry at The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.)
    It was recommended to me post-bad church experience/heavy Shepherding. (I bought a used copy online.)
    I’m reading the chapter on Thought Reform right now, and it’s what we’ve also been discussing
    about these cultic practices that the NeoCalvinists have embraced. I’m looking forward to reading the chapter on Non-Medical Healing, which from what I’ve skimmed reminds me of Nouthetic Counseling (“Bible is sufficient counsel for everything”, aka malpractice, the unauthorized practice of medicine by untrained pastors/elders).

  47. Gram3’s post on 5/24/16 about the roots of Patriarchy that we are seeing in Christian churches, NeoCalvinism:

    I would add to BradFuturist that Rousas Rushdoony was the fount of Reconstructionism (the Reformed version of Dominionism) which led to Federal Vision which plagues many PCA churches to this day. Federal Vision is Doug Wilson’s theology, though it is taught by Peter Leithart who is still inexplicably tolerated by the PCA.
    Dominionism was also promoted heavily in charismatic circles via TBN and other outlets. The connection between the charismatic form of Dominionism and the Reconstructionist version was Gary North who is Rushdoony’s son-in-law.
    Reconstructionism is a perversion of standard Covenant Theology. Some consider it merely an extreme form of Covenant Theology, but I disagree. As Brad said, they wish to establish a theocratic state modeled on the OT theocracy. They take that as a pattern for how we should do government and church and family. This includes the idea of Patriarchy.
    Federal Vision shifted the focus from establishing a theocracy to establishing a church that is the center of everything. There is much talk of priests, fathers as priests of their family, etc. Rather than a focus on individual conversion, the FV focuses on baptism and communion. One becomes a Christian by being baptized and one is baptized because one is born into a family headed by a Christian man.
    The word “covenant” is plastered all over a lot of different things, and I think it is important to keep those things separate lest we blame people who hold to standard Covenant Theology for the weirdness.
    I think a lot of Reconstructionist baggage got ported over to the YRR by guys reading Greg Bahnsen who was an affiliate of Rushdoony. He was a brilliant guy who was highly respected as an apologist in the Van Til school as was Rushdoony.
    Gothard is another thing entirely, as far as I know. Wheaton in the 60’s was not a Reformed stronghold. I believe that Gothard’s views were primarily shaped by a fundamentalist mindset in reaction to a liberalizing culture. The answer was more laws and rules rather than an emphasis on regeneration and the internal work of sanctification in the individual believer. He began his work helping parents who were frustrated with their teenagers’ rebellion. Any of us who have raised teenagers can identify with their desperation for answers, and Gothard offered a System for that just like our current Female Subordinationists offer a System which supposedly produces happy marriages and families.
    I think there was a lot of cross-pollination among these various streams of thought back in the 60’s and 70’s to get us where we are today. The Christian homeschooling movement is another place where ideas crossed over. Rushdoony decreed that homeschooling is the only Biblical way.
    The bottom line is that people will use whatever means works if what they desire is to rule over others. We have all been useful idiots, but typically in the present it is much easier to see when other people are being useful idiots. Retrospectively, some of us have been able to realize that we were useful idiots.
    That’s enough for a comment box. If you Google these names and movements, you will find a wealth of information.

  48. BL’s post on 5/24/16 adding to the information about Patriarchy’s players in American churches:

    Excellent synopsis, Gram!
    The charismatic river of Dominionism that came through the shepherding/discipleship movement was via Ern Baxter. He had worked with William Branham from whom Dominionism came through the Manifest Sons of God, The Latter Rain, and the End-Time Harvest Movements.
    This particular branch also flows through Mike Bickle (IHOP), C. Peter Wagner (NAR, & ‘Convening Apostle of the International Coalition of Apostles’), Francis Frangipane (River of Life), Che Ahn (former PDI pastor for 19 years, and one the NAR’s apostles), Kenneth Hagin & Kenneth Copeland (health & wealth quacks), Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, Lou Engle, James Goll, Chuck Pierce (Kansas City ‘prophets’), Jack Dennison (CityReach), Paul Cedar (Mission America Coalition), Ed Silvoso (Transformations), Tom White (City-Wide Prayer Movement), George Otis (Sentinel Group), Loren Cunningham (YWAM), Os Hillman (Marketplace Leaders), John Dawson (Taking Our Cities for God), Rick Warren (PDL), Bill Bright (Campus Crusade).
    That’s not an exhaustive list. The above folks are connected and interconnected together in mulitple ways.
    Finally, one pivotal man who connects the charismatic stream of C. Peter Wagner & the reformed stream of John Piper is Ralph Winter (US Center for World Mission, Perspectives on the World Christian Movement). Winter’s teachings on the Abrahamic covenant (as being the only covenant) – that this (the Abrahamic Covenant) is the ‘secret mission’ of the church.
    Quoting Winter:
    “Neither Matthew 26:28 nor mark 14:24, in the scene of the Last Supper, speak of the “new covenant, They read, “this is my blood of the covenant” not, as does Luke 22:20, “the new covenant in my blood.”
    “Apparently the word “new” is not the principal point of the passage but rather the fact that this act of outpoured blood finally ratifies and enables the same covenant in a new and ultimate sense. The sacrifice of the Cross is thus, at the very least, a definitive renewal of the Abrahamic Covenant, as we have already seen.”
    So, there you have it. There is no new covenant. Just a ‘ratification’ and ‘enabling’ of the Abrahamic covenant…
    .
    Terms to search: City Transformations, Seven Mountains Mandate, Marketplace Movement, Prayer Marching, Taking Our Cities for God, Spiritual Mapping, Spiritual Warfare, Latter Rain, Manifest Sons of God, Coalition on Revival, Global Mapping Project, The Lausanne Covenant, The Lausanne Movement, Loving Our Cities to Christ,

  49. Posted by Ken F. on May 25, 2016, regarding Bruce Ware’s whole Patriarchy/Comp/Eternal Subordination of the Son argument:

    “Let me see if I understand Ware’s logic. Woman was made from man, which makes woman lower than man. Man was made from dirt, which makes man lower than dirt? No, wait, that won’t work. Ok, lets try this. Man was made after all the plants and animals, which means man has dominion over all of them. Woman was made after man, which means woman has dominion over man. No, wait, that doesn’t work either. What’s a poor complementarian to do?”

  50. Posted by Deb on May 26, 2016, about the discussion about 9Marks and its abusive practices:

    Here’s a post from 2010 that seems just as relevant today.
    Nine Marks of an Abusive Church
    Those Nine Marks are:
    (1) Control-oriented style of leadership
    (2) Spiritual elitism
    (3) Manipulation of members
    (4) Perceived persecution
    (5) Lifestyle rigidity
    (6) Suppression of dissent
    (7) Harsh discipline of members
    (8) Denunciation of other churches
    (9) Painful exit process
    A number of these do seem to apply to some 9Marks churches.

  51. Posted by BL on May 27, 2016, Part 1:

    refugee wrote:
    What would you say were the 9 (or whatever number) marks of the shepherding movement? Is there a way to sum it up? I can’t seem to get my head around it. I don’t know if there is a CliffNotes version, or not.
    I’ll give a shot at an overview of what I know & experienced.
    Late 60s – early 70s and the Charismatic Movement swept through the US – impacting all ages (though the largest percentage were highschool & college age) AND all denominations.
    People who were not believers as well as people who had been believers and church members for years. These people encountered God, and it changed them. They had tasted and seen that the Lord was good.
    I know heroin addicts who stopped overnight and never went back.
    I know church members that had been content with feeding on their Sunday sermons, that began voraciously reading Scripture.
    I know highschool students who gathered together in groups of 3 or 4 to worship and praise God, to pray to Him and to seek His face.
    People continued going to their denominational church, and would meet with other charismatics at other times. Young people who had not been church members, would go wherever they could find a church – to a Southern Baptist church on Sunday mornings, a Methodist church Sunday evening, an Assembly of God on Wednesday night.
    And when there wasn’t an official church meeting somewhere, they would get together (again across all denominational lines) in homes, or offices, or the back of a motorcycle shop to worship, to share what they learned that week, to pray for each other, etc.
    I say all this to point out that no man was in charge. No organization was determining who did what when.
    And in response, several men already in various ministries decided that something needed to be done. There was concern that people were not being held accountable, they might not be maturing.
    These were already nationally known speakers and authors, and had established relationships among themselves (that sounds familiar).
    It is within the above that the Shepherding/Discipleship movement was launched.
    I’ll continue in a following post on what came next.

  52. Posted by BL on May 27, 2016, Part 2:

    refugee wrote:
    What would you say were the 9 (or whatever number) marks of the shepherding movement? Is there a way to sum it up? I can’t seem to get my head around it. I don’t know if there is a CliffNotes version, or not.
    Part 2:
    The discipleship leaders were initially involved with a ministry in Florida whose leader committed sexual sins. In response to this ministry’s failure, they sought protection from such failure by committing to each other for accountability.
    So, we had a large number of on-fire Christians going from one meeting to another, one denomination to another, caravaning to other cities for some traveling evangelist, spending hours reading books or listening to teaching tapes, as well as talking to and teaching each other.
    The men, Mumford, Simpson, Prince & Simpson (Baxter joined later) thought that the burgeoning charismatic movement needed to be accountable to someone and that someone needed to oversee it in order for the people to grow and mature.
    They named themselves Christian Growth Ministries.
    And in no particular order – they emphasized the importance of:
    Restoring biblical church government.
    The local church.
    Covenant.
    Spiritual authority, spiritual covering, delegated authority.
    Male authority.
    Accountability.
    Spiritual covering (everyone had to have a personal shepherd).
    Unquestioned obedience to your shepherd.
    Wives’ submission & obedience to husbands.
    Honoring & serving leadership.
    Not gossiping, no negative speech, no spreading strife.
    This church – Elitism (we’re the ones who are doing it right).
    Not making any decisions without your shepherd’s approval.
    Unity (with no place for dissent or disagreement.)
    Small shepherding groups.
    Obeying your shepherd even if he is wrong & trust God will fix it.
    Leaving this church and your are leaving God.
    Shunning anyone who has left.
    .
    I’m sure I’ve overlooked some aspects.

  53. Posted by Max on May 28, 2016:

    “Mr.H wrote:
    core members of the church had left here and there, so that almost no one from my time their remained a current member.”
    This is actually quite common in New Calvinist churches, particularly church plants. Here’s the usual cycle based on observations in my area: (1) a young reformer rolls into town with church planting seed money from a parent church or denominational support, (2) someone in the community is approached to serve as the host for a home meeting to discuss the church plant (usually someone who is disgruntled from doing traditional church or who has noble aspirations to start a new work to reach the unchurched), (3) the host invites his friends and others from the community to a “Bible study” (= core group), (4) the group grows as the young reformer passionately talks about hills he would die on and a message that sort of sounds like the gospel, (5) after a few months, the group out-grows the host home and they look for a store-front to rent, school gym, off-hour meeting at another church (most commonly in yuppie areas), (6) the young reformer recruits a cool band and singers, (7) free coffee/donuts and the cool music begin to draw a larger and younger crowd, (8) the flock keeps growing (mostly 20s-40s), (9) the young reformer selects like-minded elders (young ones), (10) the original host of the core group gradually becomes less important to the young reformer – he gets wise to the scheme and leaves, (11) other core group members begin to feel left out as they become distanced from the cool pastor while others take their place as the new core – they, too, begin to see the deception and exit, (12) the old core group members are shunned in the community.
    All sounds like God, doesn’t it?

  54. BL posted on May 26, 2016:

    “Lydia wrote:
    Jesus had scathing words for the religious leaders of his time.”
    Absolutely! What defies explanation is, how are today’s religious leaders so oblivious to this fact?
    How are they able to read the Gospels and be completely blind to His continuous warnings about, and rebukes to, religious leaders?
    They have built their mountainous house of complimentarianism cards on less than a half-dozen verses. They have constructed a vast tower on ‘church discipline’ on less than a half-dozen verses. And in BOTH cases the majority of those half-dozen verses are being viewed (and twisted) through their testosterone-soaked, apostolic-authority filters.
    BUT, the massive number of warnings, in both Old & New Testaments regarding false leaders, bad leaders, abusive leaders – it’s as if those don’t even exist.
    Where are the books, videos, teaching materials and conferences on Abusive Leaders?
    They want to be the door, they want to decide who is in and who is out. I ran across the following excerpt from Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers on John 10:1 at biblehub.com:
    “The Pharisees claimed for themselves that they were shepherds of Israel. They decreed who should be admitted to, and who should be cast out from the fold. They professed to be interpreters of God’s truth, and with it to feed His flock.
    Pharisees, shepherds! what did they, with their curses and excommunications, know of the tenderness of the Shepherd who “shall gather the lambs with His arm, and carry them in His bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young”?
    Pharisees feed the flock of God! What had they, with their pride and self-righteousness, ever known of the infinite love and mercy of God; or what had their hearts ever felt of the wants and woes of the masses of mankind?
    This poor blind beggar was an example of their treatment of the weaker ones of the flock. In spirit, if not in deed (John 9:22; John 9:34), they had thrust him out from the fold of God. The true Shepherd had sought and found this lost sheep, who is now standing near, in His presence and in that of the false shepherds. He teaches who the Shepherd and what the flock of God really are.
    THAT sounds familiar!
    Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.
    Sometimes you discover, when you’ve been officially excommunicated, or coerced out, or just spiritually beaten and thrown outside the ‘church doors’ – that Christ is also outside the ‘church doors’.
    As He was for the blind man in John 9, who was kicked out of the synagogue after Jesus healed him. Mr. Formerly Blind Guy, brought into the synagogue for QUESTIONING, kept giving the credit to Jesus and would not submit to his religious leaders’ authority and instructions.
    So, the Religious Keepers of the Keys to the Kingdom wielded their authority and shut him outside the door – and then…
    Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
    (Keep in mind that Mr. Formerly Blind Man had never seen Jesus, so he could not visually identify that his Healer was speaking to him.)
    He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him? Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” And he said, “Lord, I believe.”
    And he worshiped Him.
    This is one of my favorite chapters in Scripture.
    And I believe that it is the first record in Scripture of someone worshiping Jesus after He began His ministry.
    Not bad for an excommunicated, outside the church, former blind guy…
    .

  55. Another good resource to refute the teachings of Calvinism is Adrian Rogers’ booklet “Predestined for Hell? Absolutely not!”. Copies can be obtained at minimal cost by contacting Love Worth Finding Ministries (901-382-7900, http://www.lwf.org).

  56. A discussion on John Calvin and a good resource about a good man that Calvin harmed:

    Lydia wrote on 6/2/16:
    “Yes. He ruined his protege Castellio for daring to dissent. Banished him to poverty.

    *********
    Jason wrote on 6/3/16:
    “Although it’s only Wikipedia their article on Sebastian Castellio gives some information on his sad experience.”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_Castellio

  57. Posted by Lydia on 6/2/16:

    The agnostic Austrian Jew, Stefan Zweig , wrote a book titled: The Right to Heresy.
    It is about Castello.
    http://neglectedbooks.com/?p=215
    The weird thing about history of this period is that the church state archives did not really open up to many American researchers until after the world wars. There was an official history that many still quote today. But sifting through political documents, laws, council meetings, correspondence and such paints a different picture than what old Europe wanted us to see.

  58. Posted by Brad/FuturistGuy on June 3, 2016:

    siteseer wrote:
    One thing that impressed me in regard to unity was Corrie Ten Boom’s description of how all the Christians found each other and bonded together in the concentration camps, regardless of which tradition they had come from. The unity is there, perhaps, but not always visible under normal circumstances.
    The one non-fiction book I have read the most times is *Grey is the Color of Hope* by Irina Ratushinskaya. (About once every 2 years for the last 20 years.)
    http://www.amazon.com/Grey-Color-Hope-Irina-Ratushinskaya/dp/0679724478/
    It is her account of the first year in the “political prisoner” zone of the Soviet Gulag after her arrest for “writing anti-Soviet poetry.” But really, it was for her work in monitoring human rights in the USSR and documenting the lack of Soviet adherence to the Helsinki Accords.
    The women’s political prisoner zone varied from about a dozen to 20 women, all living in one house. Several were from Jewish or atheist backgrounds, the others from a wide range of Christian backgrounds: Russian Orthodox, Catholic or Uniate (Orthodox who follow the Pope), Pentecostal, and “Baptist” (which was often used as a catch-all term for everything else). Imagine living in a relatively confined space 24/7/365 — except when put into forced isolation or the hospital — and having to divide up the food, cooking, and chores, and having vigorous discussions about how to maintain dignity in the face of dehumanization and persecution by KGB and prison personnel. It really is an amazing journal … and it shows how they conducted dialog, ultimately encouraged freedom of conscience for each woman to decide as she would on critical issues facing them as individuals and especially as a group (such as going on hunger strikes in protest), and how they dealt with “moles” who sought to create discord.
    Perhaps situations of such extreme marginalization and suffering from genuine persecution bring forth the highest common denominator for unity — and it is not denominations, but freedom in Christ. Also instructive is how this group as a community extended to all members the same respect, dignity, and freedom of conscience and choice — whether they were followers of Christ or not.
    Read this engaging book with an eye to see how the Spirit works not merely despite differences, but through them, to bring interpersonal unity. Maybe unity is not so unexpected in situations where those who bring oppression do so by alternating between rules/conformity and unpredictability/chaos. It makes sense to me at least that the “liturgical rule” must be freedom to counteract the conformity, and trust of fellow community members to offer security in the midst of chaos.

  59. Posted by Ken F. on June 3, 2016:

    Velour wrote:
    Speaking of Bruce Ware and Wayne Grudem’s semi-Arian heresy, The Eternal Subordination of the Son, Ken F. made this insightful post on May 25th here:
    ““Let me see if I understand Ware’s logic. Woman was made from man, which makes woman lower than man. Man was made from dirt, which makes man lower than dirt? No, wait, that won’t work. Ok, lets try this. Man was made after all the plants and animals, which means man has dominion over all of them. Woman was made after man, which means woman has dominion over man. No, wait, that doesn’t work either. What’s a poor complementarian to do?”
    Another line of thought of complementarians takes the curse God placed on the woman as the norm: “And he will rule over you” becomes a normative mantra to support the their view that men are supposed to rule over women.
    So let’s apply that same normative mantra to men from the other curses:
    “In toil you will eat of [the ground] All the days of your life.” That means men are only allowed to eat from what they personally produce from the field. And only if it involves personal toiling. No more restaurants. No more grocery stores. No more pubs. No more home-cooked meals. I guess it even means no fasting because men have to eat on all days.
    “And you will eat the plants of the field.” Same as above, but also say goodbye to all meat and dairy products. That will put a damper on potlucks. But on the bright side, it would force men to drink black coffee, which is the only manly way to drink it.
    “By the sweat of your face You will eat bread.” No more air conditioning – all bread must be eaten while sweating from the face. This could also mean that it is sinful to live in cool climates, unless one can find a hot place to eat bread. I suppose one could create rules about whether or not sweating is mandatory while eating non-bread foods.
    If we think that it’s ok to resist these other curses, then why would we in any way want to retain the curse of men ruling over women? I am so glad that my wife is strong enough to not need me to dominate her like that.

  60. Posted by Brad/FuturistGuy on June 4, 2016, regarding the Eternal Subordination of the Son/Comp doctrine.

    Nancy2 wrote:
    If “proving” that the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father supports their claim that women are eternally subordinate to men, wouldn’t it also indicate eternal subordination of sons, in general, to fathers, in general?
    I think your point hints at a paradigm issue that is crucial to understand; there is an underlying epistemology mode of processing information that hyper-categorizes. It seems the more deeply you believe things must be classified, the more pervasive the categorizing becomes, and with it, control — which naturally leads to hierarchy. There’s always one category that is divinely designed to control/cover the other.
    So, it isn’t just men overlording women, it’s old versus young, leaders versus laypeople, church versus state/culture (there is no theology about Christians willingly letting state/culture trump Church is there?), homelanders versus foreigners …
    At the extreme end of this kind of thinking process, it then looks like Bill Gothard’s “umbrellas of protection” where a certain class “covers” the one below it and mediates for them to the one above it. This is the espresso of the Shepherding Movement for leaders over laity and of Patriarchalism for men over women and adults over children.
    If you take such adherents at the logical conclusion of their thinking systems, there is no such thing as “one-another” between classes, only within one category.
    Final thought: Get to the bottom of what seems to be motivating this and it is FEAR. Not “fear of God” in the sense of respect for His awe and majesty and power. But fear as in angst of falling short, fear things will go wrong, fear because things “should” be perfect.
    And, according to authoritative Scripture, what is fear the opposite of? Love.
    There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
    1 John 4:18, NIV, Biblegateway
    Hierarchicalists love correctness and control, but law is not love, and fear does not change hearts.
    ReplyReply w/Quote (select the text to quote then click this button)

  61. Lydia posted this on June 4, 2016, regarding John Calvin:

    There is a site I book marked on my old laptop years ago that linked to quite a few of his letters. I liked it because the link outlined who the letter was written to and the date. I will try to find it.
    Calvin wrote over 4000 letters in addition to everything else. They are a gold mine but tedious to slog through. But in them a line or two can be pivotal.
    For example, long before Servetus comes to Geneva, Calvin writes a colleague that if Servetus ever comes to Geneva, he won’t leave alive. His burning was premeditated. And the fact there was no law for burning foreigners for heresy. They were usually banished.
    We can also see that he actually colluded with a magisterial French Catholic on Servetus. Calvin hated him because Servetus had dared mark up his writings with what he thought was error and sent them to Calvin. (There is evidence they attended the same school in France at one time)
    After the burning. Calvin whines like a school boy in a letter about how people were treating him. (I got the sense some lost respect for him)
    The letters give us insight into his dark psyche. I will link when I find it. There are books you can buy with his letter compilations but the site I found years ago was free. And the letters not edited from what I could tell. I tend not to trust some sources on this. But that is just me.

  62. Lydia posted this on June 4, 2016, regarding Bruce Ware and his Eternal Subordination of the Son heresy to justify his Complementarian beliefs:

    Jim G. wrote:
    Determinism cannot distinguish between will and essence meaningfully. A
    I am assuming this is where terminology like ontological and economic is an attempt by the determinists to make it fit?
    Btw: I read Giles’ book years back refuting Ware and was astonished to read how Ware blatantly edited Anthanasius to make his words fit ESS. It was a major eye opener for me at the time.

  63. Jerome posted this on June 4, 2016, about John Calvin:

    Castellio, having translated the Bible into French, was attacked in the preface of Calvin rival translation, the Bible de Geneve:
    http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k108678p/f9.item.r=testament.zoom
    “Car au lieu qu’un temps a esté’qu’il n’y auoit point de translation Françoise de l’Escripture, au moins qui meritast ce nom: maintenant Satan a trouué autant de translateurs qu’il y a d’esprits legers & oultrecuidez qui manient les Escriptures: & trouuera encores desormais de plus en plus, si Dieu n’y pouruoit par sa grace. Si on en demande quelque exemple, nous en produirons vn qui seruira pour plusieurs, c’est a scauoir la translation de la Bible Latine & Francoise en auant par Sebastian Chastillon, homme si bien cognu en ceste Eglise tant par son ingratitude & impudence, que par la peine qu’on a per due apres luy pour le reduire au bon chemin, que nous ferions conscience, non seulement de taire son nom (comme iusques ici nous auons fait) mais aussi de n’aduertir tous Chrestiens de se garder d’vn tel personnage, comme instrument choisi de Satan pour amuser tous esprits volages & indiscrets.”
    “Satan has translators with lightweight and arrogant minds….such as Sebastian Castellio….silence him….warn all Christians to beware of such a character, the chosen instrument of Satan”
    This, in a Bible? Sick.
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  64. at the risk of bringing up movies …

    Whit Stillman’s Love & Friendship is one of the funniest adaptations of a Jane Austen story I’ve seen in years. It’s nice to see Kate Beckinsale took a break from slumming it in the Underworld series.

  65. WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:

    at the risk of bringing up movies …
    Whit Stillman’s Love & Friendship is one of the funniest adaptations of a Jane Austen story I’ve seen in years. It’s nice to see Kate Beckinsale took a break from slumming it in the Underworld series.

    Good to know!

  66. Gram3’s post on June 4, 2016:

    Denny says:
    …we must not fear making a claim that is disturbingly counter-cultural and yet strikingly biblical, a claim that the less-than-evangelical feminists understand increasingly: Christianity is undergirded by a vision of patriarchy.
    First, class, pick out the assertions which are embarrassingly naked of argument. Second, class, spot the “attack on the person” fallacy (hint: the “f” word.) Third, class, identify the emphatic and prejudicial language concealing a lack of facts and argument. Extra credit: Explain reasonably and concisely what “vision of patriarchy” actually means. Extra extra credit: Explain reasonably and concisely how said “vision of patriarchy” undergirds Christianity (must explain the structural engineering metaphor to receive all points.)
    That’s a taste.

  67. Ken F. posted this on June 5, 2016, in response to Gram3’s challenge to TWW posters about Complentarism/Patriarchy/Eternal Subordination of the Son and its logical fallicies.

    “If complementarians are to reclaim the debate, we must not fear making a claim that is disturbingly counter-cultural and yet strikingly biblical, a claim that the less-than-evangelical feminists understand increasingly: Christianity is undergirded by a vision of patriarchy.”
    ++++++++++
    What an assignment – pretty stiff challenge because the statement is such a mess of vague terms. They can wiggle words to say just about anything when they don’t define them. I’ll give it a stab:
    “reclaim” assumes that complementarians once had the upper hand. When was that? Evidence? It’s a nice word to throw in becase it preys (prays?) on people’s loss aversion (people’s tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses to acquiring gains – from Wikipedia). The reality is they have nothing to reclaim because complementarians have never been in the majority. Pure spin.
    “the debate” makes it sound like there are two sides and that one side can win. It pushes the discussion into extreme views: one is either a complentarian with all that baggage, or one is a liberal feminist who denies all gender differences. The reality is at neither extreme. And there is no true debate because there are no official groups who are taking the two extreme sides. It’s an attempt to spin facts in order to whip up frenzy and make it sound like there is something to win, or at least something not to lose.
    “we must not fear making a claim” – This is a funny statement. I would think they would want to say “we must not fear standing for the truth.” It’s almost like this is an admission to making up something new.
    “disturbingly counter-cultural” – How does one define counter-cultural in a multi-cultural environment? “Counter-cultural” is just a buzz word that has almost no meaning. It’s meant to sound brave and heroic, but they forget that all the heretics were counter to the normative church culture. “Disturbingly” is a disturbing word to describe a Christian movement. More spin in an effort to sound heroic.
    “yet strikingly biblical” is another meaningless phrase. First, the word “yet” contrasts “biblical” with “counter-cultural.” Isn’t Christianity already supposed to be counter-cultural? So it sounds like this is setting up a double-negative. It seems like “and” would have been a better word choice. Unless they mean to upset the current Christian culture, which is what they are doing. Inserting “strikingly” makes no sense other than to inflate the language.
    “less-than-evangelical feminists” – What does “less than evangelical” mean? Is it assuming that no feminist can be fully evangelical? What do they mean by feminist? If it’s someone advocating equal pay for equal work, that hardly disqualifies a person from being an evangelical. What does it even mean to be evangelical? There is no clear definition for evangelical. So this is a nearly meaningless string of words.
    “understand increasingly:” What evidence does he have that “less-than-evangelical feminists” are increasing in their understanding of his conclusion? I think it’s the opposite. It’s spin to make it sound like complementarians are gaining ground.
    “Christianity is undergirded by a vision of patriarchy.” – This is the point they have yet to prove. But say it enough times and it begins to sound true. Christianity has been infected by it too often in the past, just like it has been infected by lust for the power of the state. But it’s not the “Biblical” norm.
    I have to skip the extra credit points – I cannot begin to imagine how to answer.

  68. Posted by Lydia about the Comp-promoters of the ESV Bible quashing Gordon Fee, a real gentleman and the TNIV Bible (Today’s New Internatonal Version).

    Velour wrote:
    I am deprogramming from NeoCalvinism/Comp and having been seriously *hoodwinked*.
    Can you explain the whole TNIV Bible version and how it got quashed by the ESV/NeoCalvinists/Comp proponents?
    I’ve heard about it. I just don’t know all of the players.
    One of the problems, believe it or not, is that men like Gordon Fee are true gentleman and scholars and don’t partake in the same tactics. They don’t fight dirty. They thought they could just make their case.
    In the end Zondervan folded on the issue. LifeWay would not carry it. (Back when that mattered)
    Here is an article by Fee and Strauss. Typical of how such men responded to the ridiculous propaganda that was basically culture warring and had nothing to do with scholarship..
    http://www.sermoncentral.com/articleb.asp?article=Fee-Strauss-Gender-and-Translation&ac=true
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  69. Book recommended by KenF on June 5, 2015, dealing with Penal Substitionary Atonement:

    I also read the book on the four views of atonement I mentioned above and “Christus Victor: An Historical Study of the Three Main Types of the Idea of the Atonement” by Gustaf Aulen and M.A. A. G. Hebert.

  70. Beakerj (from the United Kingdom) posted this on June 7, 2016:

    Lots of good thought & discussion here about the early church & the Orthodox church’s views on the atonement & on PSA: http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/?s=Penal+Substitution
    Some of it boils down to the whole question of whether it’s really believable that God would forget to tell the church central & important stuff about the atonement for a thousand years, in a similar way with what is believed about the scope of God’s salvation & man’s given ability to resist it. Those who walked with Jesus & the Apostles & passed on these teachings, including eventually recording stuff & forming the canon, is it really credible they got such fundamental stuff (according to Piper et al) so wrong? If we tried that argument the other way round – oh the church taught PSA right from the start but now a 1000 years in we’ve come up with Christus Victor – we’d get laughed out of court.
    The Orthodox seem to look at the atonement in a variety of ways, with any imagery regarding payment of debt (which isn’t much) being subservient to the overall flow of the whole texts. Overall it seems much more relationship oriented – sin cuts us off from God, & Jesus brings us back.

  71. Recommended by Ken F. on June 7, 2016:

    I first read that in “The Story of Christianity: The Early Church to the Present Day” by Justo L Gonzalez. It was a good read. It’s been some years since I read it, so I should probably go back for a refresher. The one point he made that stuck is the “church” has always had to respond to the pressure of the times. This resulted in many practices and customs that we might not like, but before we get too harsh on our ancestors in the faith, we have to remember that we are also creating customs and practices as we respond to the pressures of our time. In that light, many of of the customs passed down to us make more sense. Not that it means they should apply to our times, but I have a better understanding for why the customs were put in place.

  72. LateToTheGame posted this on June 8, 2015:

    I just finished reading the book “Pagan Christianity?” by Frank Viola and George Barna. I would imagine this book has been discussed here ages ago. If you have not read this book, you might want to look it up on Amazon and read some reviews.
    They discuss how far different so-called ‘church’ is today as it was delivered to the first believers through Jesus and then the apostles. There is hardly anything that is done in Christendom churches today that resembles the first century church. To me, this was an incredible book. It seems well researched and if you have not read it, you will find that most of the things done in ‘churches’ today do not stem from Christianity, but from pagan practices. Worth mulling over.

  73. Daisy posted this on June 8, 2016:

    roebuck wrote:
    Do you know of a more-or-less comprehensive list of ways that the ESV has twisted scripture to a more NeoCal interpretation? I’ve heard a couple of things, but am interested to learn more.
    I don’t know if you’ll find any of this helpful. I don’t have a link to a single past, comprehensive list.
    ESV Gospel Transformation Bible: Complementarian Conflict of Colossal Proportions
    https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/09/03/esv-gospel-transformation-bible-complementarian-conflict-of-colossal-proportions/
    The ESV Bible’s Men-only Club
    http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/the-esv-men-only-club/
    Junia in Romans 16:7 and the ESV
    http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/junia-and-the-esv/
    Not about the ESV in particular:
    Will A Truly Honest Bible Translation for Women Ever Be Made? (part 1)
    http://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/arise/will-truly-honest-bible-translation-women-ever-be-made
    7 Places Where Gender-Inclusive Bible Translation Really Matters: Part 1
    http://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/7-places-where-gender-inclusive-bible-translation-really-matters-part-1
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  74. Daisy posted this on 6/8/16 about the TNIV Bible, the one that the ESV boys/Comp proponents have tried to quash, and did a very good job. Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood was up in arms about the TNIV Bible, which must mean that I will like it!

    @ Velour:
    I was trying to find you a link or two about the TNIV when I found out that Wayne Grudem wrote a book about it. He’s a complementarian, so he’s probably not in favor of the TNIV. The title is
    “The TNIV and the Gender-Neutral Bible Controversy” by Wayne Grudem
    TNIV debate renewed in critique of new NIV
    http://www.bpnews.net/35458/tniv-debate-renewed-in-critique-of-new-niv
    Six years after the evangelical world debated the merits and appropriateness of making Bible translations more gender inclusive for words dealing with people, the divide is becoming evident once again.
    At issue is the 2011 translation of the New International Version (NIV), which is being released six years after the full version of the 2005 TNIV translation — which never gained wide support — was published. Zondervan later discontinued the TNIV (Today’s New International Version).

  75. Velour,

    Thanks for telling me about this place, this granny missed it. Now I will read the links you have shared. You are awesome.

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