Jim Butcher’s “Dresden Files” is a rather fascinating series of urban fantasy novels. While they’re definitely not “Christian fiction”, they provide a gripping portrayal of a man trying to do right in a world filled with darkness, including in part his relationship with God (still not really resolved). It also contains one of the finest portrayals of a true Christian that I’ve read in fiction, in the form of Michael Carpenter, a knight wielding a sword containing one of the nails from the One True Cross. Content-wise it certainly doesn’t fit into the bubble of Christian fiction, though it’s not exactly gratuitous either, especially in consideration of its genre. Overall, some of the best I’ve read, with a whole lot of books written and a whole lot left to come as well.

In light of all the horrible things that need discussion, I do feel some guilt for asking, but here goes……Is is possible to occasionally post on Falling Skies when it starts again? I don’t know anyone IRL that likes it as much as I do, and not just because Noah Wyle is totes adorbs…..

Always happy to find another Georgette Heyer fan!

@ ForgivenMuch:
I completely agree with you except on one small thing – I think it will become a classic film within the Christian movie genre. We took our kids to see it at the theater when it came out – really believe the Holy Spirit opened the doors to get this film into secular theaters, no one left with dry eyes. Such a moving story on the power of love and forgiveness!

@ StephenC:
I love Dresden! I completely agree about Michael. Though I will say that I was startled to see an Urban Fantasy reference here. Maybe I shouldn’t have been.

I went and saw Ridley Scott’s new movie Exodus: gods and kings. Some blogs are abuzz over it. I’ve read everything from how it’s insensitive to the plight of African Americans, to an almost absolute certainty that the Exodus is pure myth and never happened. Big eye-roll to them all. Does everything on the silver screen always have to have an ideological screed stretched over it nowadays? I for one was thoroughly entertained by the skill and artistry of one of better film makers (Scott) in the business.

@ Muff Potter:

Ok, hello! Thanks for directing us to this thread. I am a sucker for book reccomendations.

Right now I am reading x”Without Conscience: the Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us” by Robert D. Hare, PhD.

I find it fascinating in light of all the stuff that’s going on in the leadership of evangelical Christianity these days. Maybe some of these leaders aren’t true psychopaths, but I believe they would score high on the Psychopathy Test.

This book is as good as “The Sociopath Next door” By _____ Stout but is actually more in-depth IMO.

I will check it out. My wife rolls her eyes, but I am fascinated by mental aberrations in certain people as well as biographies/autobiographies.

I’m also looking for something I can read to my 8 yo daughter as well. She loves mysteries and fantasy but I suspect that Harry Potter is a little too teenage/adult for her. I just started “Portal through the Pond” by David K Anderson and she seems to like it. It is the first in a series of four (so far). I’d like any suggestions.

@ Muff Potter:
Did you agree with his conclusions? This sounds interesting. I’ve always been fascinated by common threads of humanity.

I just finished reading All the Light We Cannot See a novel by Anthony Doerr. The guy truly is a wordsmith extraordinaire and I can see why his novel won the 2015 Pulitzer Prize for fiction.

@ numo:

Sounds like a fascinating read numes. I’ll give it a look see.

@ Muff Potter:
I’m a Mirren fan myself, and like Dance, too. Will keep an eye out for this one!

@ Muff Potter:

I just watched the trailer. A must see for me now.

A great documentary on HBO about the obesity epidemic in adults and children in the U.S., excellent medical and scientific research, stories of people who have serious health problems from same, and inspirational stories of those who kicked it into gear and made serious changes and have improved health!

http://theweightofthenation.hbo.com/

Max’s insightful comment yesterday on 8/15/15 about New Calvinism on a blog post here on TWW:

Education does not produce one ounce of revelation. Flesh controls New Calvinism, not the Spirit. Just a bunch of flesh babies rebelling against the way their parents do church. Intellectual, but not very smart. They pride themselves on being reformed, but have not been transformed by the love of Christ.

Commenter/poster/author/researcher Barb Orlowski, Canada, (blog is Church Exiters) posted these books on 8/25/15 on another Wartburg Watch article regarding the whole comp discussion as recommended reading.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I would like to recommend three books by Susanna Krizo which attempt to expose the Complementarian agenda.

*“Recovering From Un-Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Patriarchy”

“Recovering From Un-Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Patriarchy” examines the main arguments in an easy-to-read dialogue format that allows the reader to reach his/her own conclusions while enjoying a deep, yet lighthearted, theological discussion.

Here is an excerpt from one book review:

“Thank God for Susanna Krizo! She makes complicated theology easy and fun to read. This is one of the most entertaining books we’ve ever read. At times it is so funny that you find yourself laughing and having a good time, and totally forget that theology is usually a dull topic to read! What we love most about her writing is that she works so hard to develop a full logical argument, address both sides of an issue, and really thinks things through to reasonable conclusions, all the while staying faithful to the Bible. Many theologians don’t like answering questions because they don’t really want to think things through because then their conclusions fall apart. But the Bible says “come let us reason together” because we need to really test all doctrine before accepting it. That’s what this book does so well.”

*“When Dogmas Die: The Return of Biblical Equality”

“When Dogmas Die” begins with a comprehensive look at Genesis 3:16 and the view that women are born inferior.

Book Quote: “Always ask why—not who, but why—for if you ask who gave the man authority over the woman, you may not find out why the man was given the authority, but if you ask why the man was given authority over the woman, you will find that it was the man’s idea.

Book Review Excerpt:

“When Dogmas Die” is a stunning critique of one of the great handbooks of Patriarchy in the Church: “Restoring Biblical Manhood and Womanhood,” the collection of essays on gender roles compiled by John Piper and Wayne Grudem.

Grudem is considered a scholar by many in the church, so it comes as quite a surprise to find his work so tainted with errors and omissions, as this book aptly demonstrates and documents.

The subjection of women by men began as a result of the fall in the garden, and Krizo begins the book with a Chapter entitled “Genesis 3:16” to prove that point, and to show why Piper and Grudem’s attempt to teach a God-ordained hierarchy prior to the fall is in error.
*“Genesis 3: The Origin of Gender Roles”

Book Review Excerpts:

“Witty and insightful, Susanna Krizo’s new book joins an ever-growing body of literature calling for the full recognition of women’s equality in all corners of the Christian faith. Challenging patriarchal assumptions carried over from ancient cultures, Krizo paints a picture of women and men sharing authority and celebrating what it means to be created in the image of God.”

“If the creation account doesn’t mention the man’s authority, and if Ephesians 5 instructs husbands to love their wives the way they love themselves instead of exercising authority over them, why do our theologians nevertheless insist that Ephesians 5 confirms that the man was given authority over the woman as part of creation” (from Chapter 7)

“The answer is simple: because men desire to rule women as a consequence of sin and no longer love their wives the way humans were created to love — unselfishly.” (from Chapter 7)

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_13/185-3355441-8987659?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=susanna+krizo&sprefix=susanna+krizo%2Cstripbooks%2C277

Wonderful flash mob Happy Birthday concert, at a beautiful old square in France, to honor the late French composer and pianist Francis Poluenc. Includes the musicians singing and playing Beatles too.

Very fun!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJQdo1kLiis&sns=em

@ Max:
^Thanks, Max, for the links! Very helpful.

Max wrote:

@ Velour:
Looks like Christianity Today put the article I cited into limited view, by subscription only. Must have received too many hits! Too bad, that was a good intro to New Calvinism, as it emerged onto the scene about 10 years ago.

Max wrote:

@ Velour:
Looks like Christianity Today put the article I cited into limited view, by subscription only. Must have received too many hits! Too bad, that was a good intro to New Calvinism, as it emerged onto the scene about 10 years ago.

Thanks, Max. I have access to a database that gives me access to all kinds of magazines, academic journals, etc. I will try to read the full article through that.

Recommended article by Baptist pastor Wade Burleson, The Wartburg Watch’s EPastor on Sundays, on the whole comp doctrine/patriarchy and the Eternal Subordination of the Son:
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/06/eternal-subordination-and-sbc-divorce.html

“Here’s the catch. Southern Baptist leaders have made the tragic error of believing that a husband should rule and a wife should be submissive because the Bible demands it. Truth be known, the Bible calls any desire to control and dominate–be it the husband or the wife– “the curse.” The divorce rate increases when Southern Baptists call “the norm” what the Bible calls “the curse.” When the first man (Adam) sought to rule over the first woman (Eve), Adam was manifesting a curse, not meeting a commandment (Genesis 3:16).

Jesus came to reverse the curse. Redemption causes curse-filled people to become grace-filled people. Those who seek to rule over others by exerting authority, when they come to see what Jesus says about life, will turn loose of trying to control other people and will only seek to love and serve, NEVER exerting any alleged authority. Again, Jesus said that “the Gentiles lord over others” and “exert authority,” but “it shall not be this way among you” (Matthew 20:24-26).

Southern Baptist Convention leaders have wrongly pushed for men to lord their authority over their wives, and called on wives to submit to the authority of their husbands because of a belief in and promotion of “the eternal subordination of the Son.” I’ve written about this doctrinal problem among Southern Baptists for years, but I recently came across a brilliant article by Dr. Keith Johnson (Ph.D. Duke), the director of theological development for Campus Crusade for Christ. Johnson’s article is called Trinitarian Agency and the Eternal Subordination of the Son: An Augustinian Perspective.”

Dr. Keith Johnson’s article:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/journal-issues/36.1/Themelios36.1.pdf#page=9

Refugee’s helpful instructions for those who would like to bold and italicize on The Wartburg Watch.

refugee UNITED STATES on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:55 PM said:

Janet Varin wrote:

(I capitalized the last paragraph because I don’t know how to modify the font on these comments.)

Janet, just fyi

When you highlight some text and quote it, look at how it appears in the comment box before you post. See the [blockquote] and [/blockquote] bracketing the text? The principle is the same for bold and italicized text.

You italicize by typing a less-than-sign, followed by the letters em, followed by a greater-than sign.

Then type the text. Then close the special font (see next line).

To close, you type a less-than-sign, a slash that goes from lower left to upper right, then the letters em, then the greater-than-sign.

It would look something like this (if it works in this medium)
I am going to quote with [em]italicized text[/em] and everything else will be normal text.

To bold, you simply put the word strong in place of (in the italics instructions) the letters em.
I am going to emphasize with [strong]bold text[/strong] and everything else will be as usual.

Just replace the square brackets with angle brackets (less-than and greater-than symbols). And don’t forget to close the special text, or *everything* that follows will be bolded and/or italicized. It can be tricky.

Hope this helps.

Any Blacklist fans here? I gave up the glass teat (TV) some years back because the quality got as bad as an African waterhole with nothing but crocs in it.
Finally! Somebody hired some writers who can actually write for more than just a bevy of pretty people with perfect teeth and little more.
James Spader is awesome as Raymond Reddington.
I never miss an episode.

Good video of Ron Pierce that someone posted on Tim Fall’s blog. He is a professor of theology at Talbot.

Pierce, also an author, used to be in favor of comp doctrine until he closely studied the Scriptures. That changed his mind and he no longer believes in comp doctrine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTzThBTUXq0&list=PLVHY3HvnI6yP4BsGLPs__YtoYALqHvI_8

“I experienced what you are experiencing when I first looked into the theory of divine determinism. Jerry Walls’ lecture at Evangel University “What’s Wrong With Calvinism?” was of great help in dealing with it. It is on Youtube. Roger Olson has some excellent material on the topic on his blog and the website of the Society of Evangelical Arminians is exceptionally helpful.” – John D on 5/14/15 on TWW

Dr. Jerry Walls, lecture, “What’s Wrong With Calvinism” (about 1 hr 30 minutes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Daomzm3nyIg

From Lydia’s post on 5/14/16:

I have really enjoyed listening to Walls. A former 5pt Calvinist, Leighton Flowers, has some interesting podcasts and blog posts that compare and contrast doctrines.

http://Www.soteriology101.com

Leonard Verduin’s “The Reformers and Their Stepchildren” is a scholarly work that sheds light on the shenanigans of Calvin and his followers and also reveals who the true reformers were … the Anabaptists (the stepchildren).

Posted by Ken F. on May 15, 2016:

As a companion to the questions I posted above, here is a list of some of the better links I found over the last year that critique penal substitution. It’s a lot of reading.

http://preachersinstitute.com/2011/06/02/orthodox-problems-with-penal-substitution/
http://www.pravmir.com/the-original-christian-gospel/
http://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/gods-righteousness
http://reknew.org/2014/06/why-did-god-require-animal-sacrifice-in-the-old-testament/
http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-christus-victor-view-of-the-atonement/
http://www.throwbackchristianity.com/leviticus-1711-and-penal-substitution/
http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2011/11/09/the-recapitulation-theory/
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2014/02/24/the-death-of-jesus-as-sacrifice-an-orthodox-reading-of-isaiah-53-and-romans-325/
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/ReardonExpatiation.php
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=35999.0
http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2007/09/21/whats-at-stake-in-the-atonement/
http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2011/02/biblical-view-of-christs-death.html
https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-symbol-of-faith/redemption
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_wrath_of_god
http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A.php?c=Salvation-Blood+Sacrifices+and+Forgiveness
http://www.antiochian.org/node/17816
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/46463.htm
http://therebelgod.com/AtonementFathersEQ.pdf
http://therebelgod.com/CrossPaper.pdf
http://www.biblical-theology.net/ANTI-PENAL%20SUBSTITUTION.htm
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2012/06/22/the-wrath-of-god-satisfied/
https://fullermag.fuller.edu/christus-victor-the-salvation-of-god-and-the-cross-of-christ/
http://www.covenantoflove.net/theology/the-problem-with-christus-victor-part-1/
http://formerfundy.blogspot.com/2010/08/george-macdonald-on-penal-substitution.html
http://bjorkbloggen.com/2013/03/15/the-penal-substitution-theory-is-not-biblical-youtube-film-about-the-atonement-of-christ/
http://www.academia.edu/2019111/Punishing_and_Atoning_A_New_Critique_of_Penal_Substitution
http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2011/09/why-i-cannot-in-good-conscience-be-a-protestant/
http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/why-im-becoming-orthodox-2-of-3/
http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2007/07/why-do-so-many-catholics-believe-in.html
http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2014/04/does-catholic-view-of-christs-atonement.html

Posted by Ken F. on May 12, 2016:
Lydia wrote:
It took me awhile to realize that the Neo Cal movement does not want people to research Calvinism.
Here are some of the better links I found during my research:
http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2014/05/20/troubling-trends-americas-calvinist-revival/
http://blog.savetheperishing.com/?p=2911
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html
https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/10/04/the-modern-day-pharisees-calvinism/
https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2015/03/10/ej-hill-side-hillside/#more-21353
http://www.thepoorinspirit.com/post/37486824724/my-journey-to-with-and-away-from-calvinism
http://www.thepoorinspirit.com/post/87314855346/the-potter-and-the-clay-comparing-calvin-with
http://www.thepoorinspirit.com/tagged/Calvinism
http://micahjmurray.com/election/
http://redeeminggod.com/john-6-44-no-one-can-come-to-me-unless-the-father-draws-him/
http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2011/02/biblical-doctrine-of-salvation.html
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/716-is-faith-the-gift-of-ephesians-2-8
http://faithalone.org/magazine/y1989/89july1.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/unlimited-atonement.html
http://lhim.org/blog/2014/04/11/a-free-will-perspective-on-romans-9-and-predestination/
http://lhim.org/blog/2014/02/06/three-arguments-against-total-depravity/
None of these links are perfect, but after reading quite a lot a picture is emerging.

Posted by Brad/FutuistGuy on May 23, 2016:

I thought about some key indicators, and remembered that a lot of them are in the lists for this post I wrote on “Calvinistas” a few years ago. Although Shepherding-type authoritarianism isn’t only in Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritan or Pentecostal settings, there is a common paradigm of thinking that always separates things into classes and categories, and that similarity goes far deeper than the doctrinal differences.
https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/calvinistas/
FWIW, here’s a bullet list of some of the items on those lists, and I’ll leave the descriptions of them over there.
* Dualism
* Reductionism
* Perfectionism
* Patriarchalism
* Totalism and Authoritarianism
* Dominionism
About the only other thing I think I’d add to this is something having to do with the ways these groups tend to “collaborate.” If they engage in ministry partnerships at all, it’s like to be where there is high overlap on those other essential approaches to thinking processes, systems, personal growth or behavior modification, authority and subservience, and stance toward culture. And the rest of the churches-theologians-Christians are labeled as either non-gospel, heretical, etc.

Gram3’s post on 5/24/16 about the roots of Patriarchy that we are seeing in Christian churches, NeoCalvinism:

I would add to BradFuturist that Rousas Rushdoony was the fount of Reconstructionism (the Reformed version of Dominionism) which led to Federal Vision which plagues many PCA churches to this day. Federal Vision is Doug Wilson’s theology, though it is taught by Peter Leithart who is still inexplicably tolerated by the PCA.
Dominionism was also promoted heavily in charismatic circles via TBN and other outlets. The connection between the charismatic form of Dominionism and the Reconstructionist version was Gary North who is Rushdoony’s son-in-law.
Reconstructionism is a perversion of standard Covenant Theology. Some consider it merely an extreme form of Covenant Theology, but I disagree. As Brad said, they wish to establish a theocratic state modeled on the OT theocracy. They take that as a pattern for how we should do government and church and family. This includes the idea of Patriarchy.
Federal Vision shifted the focus from establishing a theocracy to establishing a church that is the center of everything. There is much talk of priests, fathers as priests of their family, etc. Rather than a focus on individual conversion, the FV focuses on baptism and communion. One becomes a Christian by being baptized and one is baptized because one is born into a family headed by a Christian man.
The word “covenant” is plastered all over a lot of different things, and I think it is important to keep those things separate lest we blame people who hold to standard Covenant Theology for the weirdness.
I think a lot of Reconstructionist baggage got ported over to the YRR by guys reading Greg Bahnsen who was an affiliate of Rushdoony. He was a brilliant guy who was highly respected as an apologist in the Van Til school as was Rushdoony.
Gothard is another thing entirely, as far as I know. Wheaton in the 60’s was not a Reformed stronghold. I believe that Gothard’s views were primarily shaped by a fundamentalist mindset in reaction to a liberalizing culture. The answer was more laws and rules rather than an emphasis on regeneration and the internal work of sanctification in the individual believer. He began his work helping parents who were frustrated with their teenagers’ rebellion. Any of us who have raised teenagers can identify with their desperation for answers, and Gothard offered a System for that just like our current Female Subordinationists offer a System which supposedly produces happy marriages and families.
I think there was a lot of cross-pollination among these various streams of thought back in the 60’s and 70’s to get us where we are today. The Christian homeschooling movement is another place where ideas crossed over. Rushdoony decreed that homeschooling is the only Biblical way.
The bottom line is that people will use whatever means works if what they desire is to rule over others. We have all been useful idiots, but typically in the present it is much easier to see when other people are being useful idiots. Retrospectively, some of us have been able to realize that we were useful idiots.
That’s enough for a comment box. If you Google these names and movements, you will find a wealth of information.

Posted by Ken F. on May 25, 2016, regarding Bruce Ware’s whole Patriarchy/Comp/Eternal Subordination of the Son argument:

“Let me see if I understand Ware’s logic. Woman was made from man, which makes woman lower than man. Man was made from dirt, which makes man lower than dirt? No, wait, that won’t work. Ok, lets try this. Man was made after all the plants and animals, which means man has dominion over all of them. Woman was made after man, which means woman has dominion over man. No, wait, that doesn’t work either. What’s a poor complementarian to do?”

This link goes with Deb’s post on May 26, 2016, about 9Marks abuses. The Wartburg Watch wrote it about it previously, here: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/12/17/nine-marks-of-an-abusive-church/

Posted by BL on May 27, 2016, Part 2:

refugee wrote:
What would you say were the 9 (or whatever number) marks of the shepherding movement? Is there a way to sum it up? I can’t seem to get my head around it. I don’t know if there is a CliffNotes version, or not.
Part 2:
The discipleship leaders were initially involved with a ministry in Florida whose leader committed sexual sins. In response to this ministry’s failure, they sought protection from such failure by committing to each other for accountability.
So, we had a large number of on-fire Christians going from one meeting to another, one denomination to another, caravaning to other cities for some traveling evangelist, spending hours reading books or listening to teaching tapes, as well as talking to and teaching each other.
The men, Mumford, Simpson, Prince & Simpson (Baxter joined later) thought that the burgeoning charismatic movement needed to be accountable to someone and that someone needed to oversee it in order for the people to grow and mature.
They named themselves Christian Growth Ministries.
And in no particular order – they emphasized the importance of:
Restoring biblical church government.
The local church.
Covenant.
Spiritual authority, spiritual covering, delegated authority.
Male authority.
Accountability.
Spiritual covering (everyone had to have a personal shepherd).
Unquestioned obedience to your shepherd.
Wives’ submission & obedience to husbands.
Honoring & serving leadership.
Not gossiping, no negative speech, no spreading strife.
This church – Elitism (we’re the ones who are doing it right).
Not making any decisions without your shepherd’s approval.
Unity (with no place for dissent or disagreement.)
Small shepherding groups.
Obeying your shepherd even if he is wrong & trust God will fix it.
Leaving this church and your are leaving God.
Shunning anyone who has left.
.
I’m sure I’ve overlooked some aspects.

BL posted on May 26, 2016:

“Lydia wrote:
Jesus had scathing words for the religious leaders of his time.”
Absolutely! What defies explanation is, how are today’s religious leaders so oblivious to this fact?
How are they able to read the Gospels and be completely blind to His continuous warnings about, and rebukes to, religious leaders?
They have built their mountainous house of complimentarianism cards on less than a half-dozen verses. They have constructed a vast tower on ‘church discipline’ on less than a half-dozen verses. And in BOTH cases the majority of those half-dozen verses are being viewed (and twisted) through their testosterone-soaked, apostolic-authority filters.
BUT, the massive number of warnings, in both Old & New Testaments regarding false leaders, bad leaders, abusive leaders – it’s as if those don’t even exist.
Where are the books, videos, teaching materials and conferences on Abusive Leaders?
They want to be the door, they want to decide who is in and who is out. I ran across the following excerpt from Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers on John 10:1 at biblehub.com:
“The Pharisees claimed for themselves that they were shepherds of Israel. They decreed who should be admitted to, and who should be cast out from the fold. They professed to be interpreters of God’s truth, and with it to feed His flock.
Pharisees, shepherds! what did they, with their curses and excommunications, know of the tenderness of the Shepherd who “shall gather the lambs with His arm, and carry them in His bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young”?
Pharisees feed the flock of God! What had they, with their pride and self-righteousness, ever known of the infinite love and mercy of God; or what had their hearts ever felt of the wants and woes of the masses of mankind?
This poor blind beggar was an example of their treatment of the weaker ones of the flock. In spirit, if not in deed (John 9:22; John 9:34), they had thrust him out from the fold of God. The true Shepherd had sought and found this lost sheep, who is now standing near, in His presence and in that of the false shepherds. He teaches who the Shepherd and what the flock of God really are.
THAT sounds familiar!
Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.
Sometimes you discover, when you’ve been officially excommunicated, or coerced out, or just spiritually beaten and thrown outside the ‘church doors’ – that Christ is also outside the ‘church doors’.
As He was for the blind man in John 9, who was kicked out of the synagogue after Jesus healed him. Mr. Formerly Blind Guy, brought into the synagogue for QUESTIONING, kept giving the credit to Jesus and would not submit to his religious leaders’ authority and instructions.
So, the Religious Keepers of the Keys to the Kingdom wielded their authority and shut him outside the door – and then…
Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
(Keep in mind that Mr. Formerly Blind Man had never seen Jesus, so he could not visually identify that his Healer was speaking to him.)
He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him? Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” And he said, “Lord, I believe.”
And he worshiped Him.
This is one of my favorite chapters in Scripture.
And I believe that it is the first record in Scripture of someone worshiping Jesus after He began His ministry.
Not bad for an excommunicated, outside the church, former blind guy…
.

A discussion on John Calvin and a good resource about a good man that Calvin harmed:

Lydia wrote on 6/2/16:
“Yes. He ruined his protege Castellio for daring to dissent. Banished him to poverty.

*********
Jason wrote on 6/3/16:
“Although it’s only Wikipedia their article on Sebastian Castellio gives some information on his sad experience.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_Castellio

Posted by Brad/FuturistGuy on June 3, 2016:

siteseer wrote:
One thing that impressed me in regard to unity was Corrie Ten Boom’s description of how all the Christians found each other and bonded together in the concentration camps, regardless of which tradition they had come from. The unity is there, perhaps, but not always visible under normal circumstances.
The one non-fiction book I have read the most times is *Grey is the Color of Hope* by Irina Ratushinskaya. (About once every 2 years for the last 20 years.)
http://www.amazon.com/Grey-Color-Hope-Irina-Ratushinskaya/dp/0679724478/
It is her account of the first year in the “political prisoner” zone of the Soviet Gulag after her arrest for “writing anti-Soviet poetry.” But really, it was for her work in monitoring human rights in the USSR and documenting the lack of Soviet adherence to the Helsinki Accords.
The women’s political prisoner zone varied from about a dozen to 20 women, all living in one house. Several were from Jewish or atheist backgrounds, the others from a wide range of Christian backgrounds: Russian Orthodox, Catholic or Uniate (Orthodox who follow the Pope), Pentecostal, and “Baptist” (which was often used as a catch-all term for everything else). Imagine living in a relatively confined space 24/7/365 — except when put into forced isolation or the hospital — and having to divide up the food, cooking, and chores, and having vigorous discussions about how to maintain dignity in the face of dehumanization and persecution by KGB and prison personnel. It really is an amazing journal … and it shows how they conducted dialog, ultimately encouraged freedom of conscience for each woman to decide as she would on critical issues facing them as individuals and especially as a group (such as going on hunger strikes in protest), and how they dealt with “moles” who sought to create discord.
Perhaps situations of such extreme marginalization and suffering from genuine persecution bring forth the highest common denominator for unity — and it is not denominations, but freedom in Christ. Also instructive is how this group as a community extended to all members the same respect, dignity, and freedom of conscience and choice — whether they were followers of Christ or not.
Read this engaging book with an eye to see how the Spirit works not merely despite differences, but through them, to bring interpersonal unity. Maybe unity is not so unexpected in situations where those who bring oppression do so by alternating between rules/conformity and unpredictability/chaos. It makes sense to me at least that the “liturgical rule” must be freedom to counteract the conformity, and trust of fellow community members to offer security in the midst of chaos.

Posted by Brad/FuturistGuy on June 4, 2016, regarding the Eternal Subordination of the Son/Comp doctrine.

Nancy2 wrote:
If “proving” that the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father supports their claim that women are eternally subordinate to men, wouldn’t it also indicate eternal subordination of sons, in general, to fathers, in general?
I think your point hints at a paradigm issue that is crucial to understand; there is an underlying epistemology mode of processing information that hyper-categorizes. It seems the more deeply you believe things must be classified, the more pervasive the categorizing becomes, and with it, control — which naturally leads to hierarchy. There’s always one category that is divinely designed to control/cover the other.
So, it isn’t just men overlording women, it’s old versus young, leaders versus laypeople, church versus state/culture (there is no theology about Christians willingly letting state/culture trump Church is there?), homelanders versus foreigners …
At the extreme end of this kind of thinking process, it then looks like Bill Gothard’s “umbrellas of protection” where a certain class “covers” the one below it and mediates for them to the one above it. This is the espresso of the Shepherding Movement for leaders over laity and of Patriarchalism for men over women and adults over children.
If you take such adherents at the logical conclusion of their thinking systems, there is no such thing as “one-another” between classes, only within one category.
Final thought: Get to the bottom of what seems to be motivating this and it is FEAR. Not “fear of God” in the sense of respect for His awe and majesty and power. But fear as in angst of falling short, fear things will go wrong, fear because things “should” be perfect.
And, according to authoritative Scripture, what is fear the opposite of? Love.
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18, NIV, Biblegateway
Hierarchicalists love correctness and control, but law is not love, and fear does not change hearts.
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Lydia posted this on June 4, 2016, regarding Bruce Ware and his Eternal Subordination of the Son heresy to justify his Complementarian beliefs:

Jim G. wrote:
Determinism cannot distinguish between will and essence meaningfully. A
I am assuming this is where terminology like ontological and economic is an attempt by the determinists to make it fit?
Btw: I read Giles’ book years back refuting Ware and was astonished to read how Ware blatantly edited Anthanasius to make his words fit ESS. It was a major eye opener for me at the time.

at the risk of bringing up movies …

Whit Stillman’s Love & Friendship is one of the funniest adaptations of a Jane Austen story I’ve seen in years. It’s nice to see Kate Beckinsale took a break from slumming it in the Underworld series.

Gram3’s post on June 4, 2016:

Denny says:
…we must not fear making a claim that is disturbingly counter-cultural and yet strikingly biblical, a claim that the less-than-evangelical feminists understand increasingly: Christianity is undergirded by a vision of patriarchy.
First, class, pick out the assertions which are embarrassingly naked of argument. Second, class, spot the “attack on the person” fallacy (hint: the “f” word.) Third, class, identify the emphatic and prejudicial language concealing a lack of facts and argument. Extra credit: Explain reasonably and concisely what “vision of patriarchy” actually means. Extra extra credit: Explain reasonably and concisely how said “vision of patriarchy” undergirds Christianity (must explain the structural engineering metaphor to receive all points.)
That’s a taste.

Lydia,
Here is the Today’s International Version Bible (TNIV) that is FREE in PDF form.
“The TNIV® text may be quoted in any form (written, visual, electronic or audio) up … Scripture taken from the Holy Bible, Today’s New International® Version.”
http://www.centreville-umc.com/Holy%20Bible%20-%20Today's%20New%20International%20Version.pdf

Book recommended by KenF on June 5, 2015, dealing with Penal Substitionary Atonement:

I also read the book on the four views of atonement I mentioned above and “Christus Victor: An Historical Study of the Three Main Types of the Idea of the Atonement” by Gustaf Aulen and M.A. A. G. Hebert.

Recommended by Ken F. on June 7, 2016:

I first read that in “The Story of Christianity: The Early Church to the Present Day” by Justo L Gonzalez. It was a good read. It’s been some years since I read it, so I should probably go back for a refresher. The one point he made that stuck is the “church” has always had to respond to the pressure of the times. This resulted in many practices and customs that we might not like, but before we get too harsh on our ancestors in the faith, we have to remember that we are also creating customs and practices as we respond to the pressures of our time. In that light, many of of the customs passed down to us make more sense. Not that it means they should apply to our times, but I have a better understanding for why the customs were put in place.

Daisy posted this on June 8, 2016:

roebuck wrote:
Do you know of a more-or-less comprehensive list of ways that the ESV has twisted scripture to a more NeoCal interpretation? I’ve heard a couple of things, but am interested to learn more.
I don’t know if you’ll find any of this helpful. I don’t have a link to a single past, comprehensive list.
ESV Gospel Transformation Bible: Complementarian Conflict of Colossal Proportions
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/09/03/esv-gospel-transformation-bible-complementarian-conflict-of-colossal-proportions/
The ESV Bible’s Men-only Club
http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/the-esv-men-only-club/
Junia in Romans 16:7 and the ESV
http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gender-issues/junia-and-the-esv/
Not about the ESV in particular:
Will A Truly Honest Bible Translation for Women Ever Be Made? (part 1)
http://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/arise/will-truly-honest-bible-translation-women-ever-be-made
7 Places Where Gender-Inclusive Bible Translation Really Matters: Part 1
http://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/7-places-where-gender-inclusive-bible-translation-really-matters-part-1
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Burwell posted this on June 9, 2016:

Gram3 wrote:
Someone on another site pointed to this link (a response by Bruce Ware)
Trueman has written a response to Ware. It is here: http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/postcards-from-palookaville/a-surrejoinder-to-bruce-ware#.V1mprORmoUk
Hopefully Trueman will also reply to Grudem’s (more caustic) response.
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Brilliant comment by Nancy2 posted on July 3, 2016, about Young Earth Creationism argument:

Ken F wrote:
And I should have added that he believes in six 24-hour days for the creation event. So if you are not a young earth creationist…

How did God create the sun and the moon in a literal day, when there was no actual 24 hour day until after he created the sun and the moon?

Posted by Nancy2 on July 5, 2016, about the Eternal Subordination of the Son heresy promoted by Ware and Grudem:

I have another one of those off the wall questions. If the Son is eternally subordinate/submissive to the Father, and we are to be “Christ-like” wouldn’t ESS/ERAS negate Gen.2:24 …… ” And a son shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife ……” ?

Ken F’s post on July 10, 2016:

I tried copying the text of my paper into a comment here. It’s on the long side and has not yet cleared customs. But here’s an appendix that could be helpful.
Some potential pitfalls of accountability:
Useless against the flesh.
• Colossians 2:20-23 – “If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, ‘Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!’ (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.”
Results in an impossible life of “sin management.” The Pharisees excelled in accountability, but failed to obtain adequate righteousness. How much accountability would be good enough?
• Matthew 5:20 – “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Leads to a “bait and switch” form of Christianity. People are lured into the church with love and grace, and then pounded with performance expectations after they are in. Jesus always explained expectations up front and never moved the goalposts. He never tricked people into the kingdom.
• Luke 9:57-62 – “As they were going along the road, someone said to Him, ‘I will follow You wherever You go.’ And Jesus said to him, ‘The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.’ And He said to another, ‘Follow Me.’ But he said, ‘Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father.’ But He said to him, ‘Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.’ Another also said, ‘I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home.’ But Jesus said to him, ‘No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.’”
Replaces one kind of sin with another. For example, if the fear of embarrassment is the motivation for better behavior, then the replacement sin is pride.
Creates a condition or attitude where there is a human mediator between man and God.
• 1 Timothy 2:5 – “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”
Focuses the attention on outward behavior rather than core beliefs and motivations.
• Matthew 5:27-28 – “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.’”
Focuses our attention on our flesh, which is exactly the wrong result.
• Romans 8:6-8 “For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
We become man-pleasers more than God-pleasers.
• Galatians 1:10 – “For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.”
It can result in us “falling from grace” and back into performance under the law.
• Galatians 3:3 – “Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”

Guys?

Isn’t this supposed to be the “Books/Movies/TV” thread?

Nick, posted these on the other thread about movies. So to placate H.U.G., I will post them on my secret piece of real estate here.

Loosely on the topic of complementarianism, and before I go to bed (it being 11pm here in Blighty), I wonder whether there are any other Wartburgers who like all of the following movies:
 The Life of Brian (obvious)
 Event Horizon (cult – in the movie sense)
 Fish Story (obscure)

Just in case anyone’s interested.

Signed,

Squirrel

Posted by Patti on July 21, 2016, about Complementarianism:

Daisy wrote:
So when I hear complementarians try to defend male headship, by saying men don’t REALLY want power and control over women, by saying what a hard, serious, stressful, burden it is for husbands to lead and control a wife, I sometimes roll my eyes.
Yes, that is what I always heard. So, when I started a serious study on the issue over 20 years ago with my trusty Strong’s 4 inch thick concordance and lexicon and found out what the Bible really said about the issue for myself, I thought my complementarian male friends would be thrilled that I thought women had more responsibility than was thought they did and that the heavy burden of responsibility that the men always complained about should mutually be shared. My husband sure seemed to relax a bit more and wasn’t so anxious. None of them had the time to study the Bible like I did while the kids were in school so I didn’t feel like I was being a know-it-all. But that was when I found out that the men LIKED the sense of being in control and being the boss and being the head and all that that the preacher told them they had. They became angry at me for my findings and wouldn’t even sit down and look at the scriptures with me. I cried and cried. This was all before I knew there was anything in Christianity besides complementarianism (no one had capitalized on the name yet though). I thought I was alone until the internet came along. I cried and cried again after reading Catherine Bushnell’s God’s Word to Women. And for the record, I think a man would have cried and cried too if he had lived my experience.

August 1, 2016 was the 50 year anniversary of the Aug. 1, 1966 University of Texas at Austin deadly clock tower shooting. Out of the Blue. A Texas Standard Documentary records that terrible day. John Fox (Austic comic actor Artly Snuff) and Claire Wilson’s recollections are powerful. Oh, what Rita Starpattern and others did that day. Better told in the words of the wounded:

http://towerhistory.org/profiles/artly-john-henry-fox-snuff/
http://towerhistory.org/profiles/claire-wilson-james/

Christiane on Sun Aug 07, 2016 at 12:43 PM said:

another film that illustrates Christus Victor is Clint Eastwood’s “Gran Torino”
to fully understand the ending, you need to see the whole movie; but the ending is classic Christus Victor and it is stunningly realistic
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Dee, Interesting about the book. Popular at one time I guess? And, yes, you did good by Polly. Presence and much more. Our favorite earthbound things from family members who passed on are found in our kitchen. They connect us to the once daily rhythm of their lives as we go about ours. Gram’s mixing bowl set and recipe box, Pop’s fish fryer, MIL’s utensils and faded years-past crocheted calendar towels. The kitchen drawer is a hodgepodge of their and our everyday flatware. Though we keep our home simple, we have saved a few books they enjoyed and Mom’s well worn reading chair. Old age doesn’t always mean who is on the precipice of eternity, but our friends who loved us and were up in years had time to think about it and gifted us with a few of their tchotchkes and books as they down sized their homes. Best to you and your husband as you make your way through today, the day of Polly’s funeral, and in the days ahead in taking care of Polly’s earthbound matters.

Ken F. posted this on August 18, 2016:

About two years ago I could not give a good explanation of reformed theology and could not describe the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism, even though I had been an active Christian for more than 30 years. That changed a couple years ago when my sons started asking tough questions (they were attending a TGC-listed SBC church in their college town). I spent more than a year in an almost OCD-like obsession digging into the details. Diving into Calvinism was a pretty depressing journey for me. I discovered that Arminianism is not that much different in the basic assumptions, but the conclusions are very different. It was this research that showed me these are not the only choices. The Eastern tradition of Christianity did a much better job in retaining the teachings of the early church – they did not go down the path of the Augustinian/Aristotelian/Platonic view of God that is the foundation of both Calvinism and Arminianism.
I highly recommend going back to the early church. There are many great resources available for free. One of my favorites so far is “On the Incarnation” by Athanasius. I’ve read quite a lot of articles and a few books by Eastern Orthodox teachers. That has been very eye-opening.
I’ve been very encouraged lately by the ministries of Baxter Kruger and Paul Young (author of The Shack). Baxter Kruger has discovered the early church and seems to be doing a great job of unpacking what the early church believed. Here is a link to some of his lectures and articles: http://perichoresis.org/free-lecture-series/. I am currently working through the series called “The Shack Revisited: Orama Great Barrier Island 2014.” All I can say is Wow. If you need a break from Calvinism and the related Western arguments, Kruger offers another side. He grew up Presbyterian and Calvinist, so he does a great job in very graciously showing where Calvinism misses the mark.

Deb posted this on August 21, 2016:

Velour wrote:
No, I haven’t read The Shack because the NeoCalvinists at my ex-church said that the author was a heretic. I will now read it on your recommendation.
Two years ago Emmanuel Enid (Wade’s church) had Paul Young come and preach. At some point during the weekend, Paul shared his life story. I remember listening to it and found it very moving. I believe it is important to know Young’s background because it helps those reading The Shack understand certain angles of his book.
It’s a long, but captivating message, which can be accessed at this link:
https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=paul+young+and+emmanuel+enid+and+youtube&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-002

Christiane posted on August 21, 2016:

@ Velour:
I learned about the eastern viewpoint from my godmother who was Byzantine Catholic (that’s Catholic, but a different ‘rite’ than the Latin ‘rite’);
but I also always enjoyed two other specific influences:
there is a blog favored by Imonk called ‘Father Orthoduck’ which is good thoughtful reading;
and then there is the music of the East, which you have yourself shared here (and thank you); I particularly admire the ‘basso profundo’ a capella voices which are so deep and reverent in their singing of the eastern hymns;
and I am in awe of the work of Roman Hurko and here is a sample of his choral work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHi-1taeqeo
The writings of Athanasius and the Cappodocian (sp?) Fathers is something I greatly admire. These Fathers of the Church represented a more Eastern point of view, which helped save the young Church from the heretical teachings of that day.
I am also an admire of John Chrysostom’s writing, which is so faith-filled, it radiates Our Lord’s light.
And Ken F. has shared a MAGNIFICENT site by Baxter Kruger, this:
http://perichoresis.org/free-lecture-series/
That should get you started. And for atmosphere, while you read, make some samovar tea! Good to know the faith of the ones who came before us. They are also with us in the Body of Christ even now. 🙂

Posted by PaJo on August 21, 2016.

Two books that might be of interest for those who want to read the Church Fathers but are jumpy about reading outside of a Protestant viewpoint might want to check out these two books by James Payton. He has a good understanding of EO teachings but has remained a Protestant. I found them very interesting and have been reading through the latter for awhile.
Light from the Christian East: An Introduction to the Orthodox Tradition
A Patristic Treasury: Early Church Wisdom for Today

posted by JHL on Aug 22, 2016

Relevant to this discussion, and the aforementioned Society of Evangelical Arminians, my comment is about Dr. Roger Olson. The SEA website had a video about him in which he was interviewed, and he was asked (at the 43:00 mark), “What is the basic difference [between] Calvinism and Arminianism? What would it be?” He replied, “Well that gets right down to it, doesn’t it? I think the basic difference is pictures of God. For me, that’s the main difference of all… A certain picture of God, which I cannot accept, which is that God willingly passes over people He could save, because salvation is unconditional. So He could save everyone—there’s no obstacle there—He’s not lacking in power, He doesn’t save some people because He sees something good in them. So in theory, at least, and I can’t think of in practice why not, God could save everyone. Why doesn’t He? Well, some Calvinists say, “That’s a mystery.” It’s a mystery I have problems living with. And so I think it comes down to character of God issues. For me, the reason I can’t be a Calvinist is because it portrays God as unloving and arbitrary. Now I know that Calvinists don’t believe that, but if I were a Calvinist, that’s what I would have to believe. That’s the only way I could make sense of it is to believe that God is not loving toward all people, and arbitrary in His choice of whom to save. So the basic difference to me comes down to the character of God.”
The video is still available on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0RWF_XByMM

Someone on the threads posted this wonderful book, for those deprogramming from Calvinism (and in

my case NeoCalvinism): Reconsidering TULIP by Alexander J. Renault.

117 pages and packed with excellent information!

From Amazon’s website: “A biblical, philosophical, and historical response to the Reformed doctrines of predestination. This book is an Eastern Orthodox assessment of TULIP, bringing to the table 1,500 years of theology and thinking which is usually absent in the typical Calvinist vs. Arminian debates.”

***************
Perhaps Ken F. recommended this book since he’s been studying Calvinism and answering his sons’ questions. If so, kudos to Ken F. (or whomever first posted this book). I am so grateful.

Bill M. posted on 8/27/16:

Daisy wrote:
Learn to let go of this paradigm that ‘The Bible or Jesus is The Answer to Everything And Always Works.’

Kind of a mental health variant of the prosperity gospel’s “Blab it and Grab it” theology.

I Have a Verse
by Wayne Harmon ©

They argued with me long and loud.
They told me I was being proud.
The debate went from bad to worse.
I know I’m right. I have a verse.

I told him that his hair’s too long.
He scoffed and told me I was wrong.
I said her short hair is a curse.
I know I’m right. I have a verse.

I told them they must give a tenth
Of all their money before it’s spent.
A tithe of wallet, bank and purse.
I know I’m right. I have a verse.

I told them Rock and Roll’s a sin.
A noise that’s straight from Satan’s den.
They laughed until I thought they’d burst.
I know I’m right. I have a verse.

I told her she cannot divorce.
You said, “I do,” so stay the course.
Forget the doctor and the nurse.
I know I’m right. I have a verse.

Jesus said those from above
Will be known by how they love.
Apologizing really hurts.
I thought I was right. I had a verse.

Wayne Harmon’s blog where this poem appears is: http://wayneharmon.org/2016/08/31/i-have-a-verse/

*He posts as Uncle Dad here on TWW.

Law Prof wrote:
Nancy2 wrote:
Robert wrote:
I’m confused. Can’t we have respect for men and respect for women? It’s like there is this constant pool of being demeaned that has to be spread around to some people so we might as well dump it on the women.
The biblical answer is “No.” Ephesians 5 makes it clear that a husband is to love his wife, protect her, and provide for her …….. while a wife is to respect her husband and submit to him “in all things”. Absolutely nothing is said about a husband respecting his wife or submitting to her in anything for any reason ……. or a wife loving her husband, or protecting him, or providing for him.
So it is written! So shall it be done!
I wrote this in a bit of a sarcastic tone, but there is nothing sarcastic about it in the opinions of millions of “Christian” evangelical men. It is the “Gospel”!
Yes, to follow their prescribed path for the function of men and women and the church one has to take a few verses which were written to a patriarchal culture in which women were considered property and due to cultural constraints had virtually no legitimate means of supporting themselves without male support, short of being a common prostitute, apply them utterly without regard to the cultural context of the day or particular situations they were written to address, while simultaneously jettisoning everything else in the Bible said about women, mutual submission, mutual ownership of bodies within the marriage, there being neither male nor female in Christ–and speaking of Jesus, one would have to completely toss every single circumstance of His behavior towards women (e.g, invariably treating women with genuine respect rather than patronizing condescension, shockingly appearing first to women, not men, obeying His mother when, despite His protests, He nonetheless gave in to her desire that He should take care of the wine shortage at Cana).
But of course, what of it? Is throwing out what Jesus did anything new for them?

Harley who posts here wrote this beautiful poem the other day which she permitted me to share on my blog. https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/

WILL YOU STAND WITH ME? By Geva Roberts ©

Will you stand with me,

When a little boy is scared to go back to church.

When others tell him it is all right and no one listens.

Will you stand with me for him?

Will you stand with me for the little girl that was

Hurt at church and was forced to forgive her abuser?

Will you stand with me, if not you, then who?

Will you stand with me

when young ladies are molested by a church member.

When the church says it was partly their fault.

When these young innocent ladies are shunned.

Will you stand with me.

Will you stand with me when the husband abuses the wife,

But the church says it’s ok. He is a man of God after all.

When the husband thinks it’s ok to look at child pornography,

And the church stands beside him instead of his wife.

Will you stand with me when these “Ministers” of the church

Accuse others unjustly of gossip and slander.

When they put their members in ungodly church discipline.

Will you stand with me, if not you, then who?

Will you take a stand with me,

Shout it from the roof tops,

Cry with me till there are no more tears.

Pray till we get the answers.

Will you stand with me and others

So that innocent people are no longer hurt.

Will you speak for them, when they have no voice,

If not you, then who?

Camp Backbone. Law Prof, you’re one of our two virtual pastors to give a sermon at Camp Backbone. Seriously. First pastor will be a woman. Second will be a man, you.

We’d honestly like to come together and do this. A competing ministry to the insanity of CBMW.

Danica posted on 9/19/2016.

Ken F wrote:
What is a good version of the EO Old Testament?
If you read Greek, you could get hold of a modern Greek bible from an Orthodox publishing house, or a Rahlf’s Septuagint, which is the go-to for serious Septuagint study among Protestants.
The NETS (New English Translation of the Septuagint) is a good, recent study edition; this is my go-to, since I don’t read Greek (yet). It is based on the NRSV and is the work of real scholars, a collaborative effort of Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox. I have this as a hard copy, but it can be read on line:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
I have a pocket edition NRSV that has all the books of the Apocrypha, including those extra 2 or 3 recognized by EO but not RC – handy for travel. Also the product of very good scholarship.
The Orthodox Church recognizes the old RSV as “approved for reading” – Oxford RSV with Apocrypha is available. This has the RSV study notes by Bruce Metzger et. al. if you’re used to that format. It’s not my favorite on the readability scale, but again it has the scholarship creds. Also, I don’t like that the Apocrypha follows the NT, as an addendum. In most other Bibles where it appears as an addendum, it’s usually placed between the Testaments. This is logical, because the writings stem from that time period.
When I want the best readability, I go to the old Jerusalem Bible from the early ’60s. (Did you know that the book of Jonah in the old JB was translated by JRR Tolkien? Yes, really!) Its notes reflect Catholic doctrine, but I don’t mind that. These are scarce as hen’s teeth, having been replaced by the New Jerusalem Bible, but perhaps you can find one in a nearby library, esp a university library.
The Orthodox Study Bible is based on the NKJV. It’s okay, but I don’t own one; the notes are not to my inclination. If I want to read Orthodox commentary on Scripture, I prefer to go back to the works of the pre-Schism Greek Fathers that are available in English.
There are several Catholic Bible editions around – RSV, New American Bible, others – again, likely available in your library.
No English translation is perfect, but since I am academically inclined, I trust any of the above listed translations because I recognize the names of scholars who worked on them. Those scholars are head and shoulders above anybody who worked on the ESV.

Christiane and I both recommend the documentary (40-minutes on Netflix) called the “White Helmets”. It is about the group of humanitarian men in Syria who rescue people from the bombings. Very moving. High sense of ethics. High value placed on human life. Rescues of small children.

ZechZav UNITED KINGDOM on Sun Sep 25, 2016 at 03:53 PM said:
Ian wrote:
Ichthus is a new church grouping which I would say is Arminian and egalitarian. There may be some issues relating to the their charismatic theology, but again I’m not sure why you feel they should be avoided.
I forgot to reply on this previously. I was greatly blessed to read Roger Forster’s book God’s Strategy in Human History and also his book Women in the Kingdom. The former was a critique of Calvinist dogmas and the latter argued for women in leadership. I would highly recommend those books. My contention with them is not their charismatic theology in itself, but their promotion of the “Toronto Blessing” some 20 years ago. When I was subjected to heavy shepherding for questioning this, the leaders were very much influenced by Ichthus, New Frontiers (Terry Virgo) and Pioneer (Gerald Coates). They also led this thing called “March For Jesus” where they people to “claim the ground” and do “spiritual warfare” There is also something with them I just can’t put my finger on, so I personally avoid it.

From someone who recommended this book on Jory Micah (Christian pastor/blogger’s) Facebook page today:

Paul Harral I’ve posted this before, but it seems appropriate to do so again:

From the book Fundamentalism by Fisher Humphreys and Philip Wise, based on research by Martin Marty and Scott Appleby work in the multi-volume study The Fundamentalism Project (University of Chicago Press, 1991):

Fundamentalists share nine traits in common:

1. Religious based origination – all fundamentalist movements are grounded in religions and there are fundamentalist movements within many religions, including Protestantism.
2. Selective use of tradition – ignoring parts of their heritage that doesn’t fit their world view.
3. Reaction of the modern world – where there is no reaction against modernity, there is no fundamentalism.
4. Siege mentality – fundamentalists believe that their religious faith and way of life is under attack are under siege from aspects of modernity.
5. Militancy – fundamentalists react to modernity by fighting against it and demonizing their unbelieving enemies.
6. Authoritarian male leaders – such leaders are central in interpreting traditions and evaluating modernity,
7. Historical view – fundamentalists recall the past as better than a present that is bad and getting worse and look to a future time when their tradition will be victorious.
8. Definite boundaries – they distinguish carefully between true believes and others and draw clear lines between insiders and outsiders.
9. Totalitarian impulse – fundamentalists do not work toward coexistence; they are determined to replace modernity with their own religious system.

The above is paraphrased.

Christiane recommended this on October 13, 2016:

Velour wrote:
My grandmother died at 102 years old. I was raised with her telling us stories at the dinner table about what it was like for her to be in graduate school at university and NOT have the right to vote! She, her little old lady friends, and her women relatives helped get the 19th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution passed. She always voted and told us to do same.
That was a hard-fought right.
Velour, if you have not seen it, I highly recommend ‘Iron Jawed Angels’ but it has some graphic scenes in it, one of forced feeding in a prison that is brutal to watch.

Estelle on Sun Oct 16, 2016 at 05:00 PM said:
@ Talmidah:
If memory serves me correctly, the first people mentioned in the bible to be filled with the Spirit were the artists who worked on the first Tabernacle in the wilderness. https://thewholedangthing.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/exodus-31-the-resident-artist/
You may find the blog post interesting and the one on Exodus 26.

Filed under the “Etc.” category. Nick-isms from our own Nick Bulbeck in Scotland.

“Nick Bulbeck UNITED KINGDOM on Tue Oct 25, 2016 at 04:32 AM said:
I have decided it’s time to introduce another acronym to TWW, to accompany:
 ION (In Other News) (i.e. “this comment is completely irrelevant”)
 IHTIH (I Hope This Is Helpful)
… as well as the important neologisms “Deebs” and “Wartburgers”.
Today’s new acronym reflects the fact that a few of us are on UTC+1 which is several hours ahead of the majority of Wartburgers. It is:
 GMFS
… and stands for Good Morning From Scotland.
BeakerJ (or “Beaks” as she is more properly known) may prefer GMFE. Anyway, without further ado:

Barb Orlowski CANADA on Wed Dec 07, 2016 at 01:43 PM said:
We have just been enjoying the Knowledge Network series: The Ascent of Woman.
It is a historical look at the influence and impact of women in/on history. There are names and events that one has never heard about in a history class! It can be viewed on the internet. Enjoy!!
“In this acclaimed four-part documentary series, Dr. Amanda Foreman charts the changing role of women from the dawn of civilization to the modern day. Travelling around the world, the historian/biographer uncovers stories of extraordinary women who created their own routes to power, examines the uneven trajectory of women’s status in both the Eastern and Western worlds, and looks at the role of women in revolutions that have transformed the modern world, from political uprisings to reproductive rights.”
https://www.knowledge.ca/program/ascent-woman

FREE stretching classes done by a local community college here in Silicon Valley, West Valley College. They have helped improve my flexibility.

Velour UNITED STATES on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 07:18 AM said:
okrapod wrote:
About three months ago I injured my neck trying to cut down a holly tree (don’t ask) and I still cannot twist my neck adequately to drive, nor can I sit upright and immobile that long, which is what it would require.
I am so sorry to hear about your neck injury and pain.
If you are medically approved, here are some great Stretch & Flex videos done by a local community college here in Silicon Valley, West Valley College. The teacher, Joan, is pleasant, encouraging, and calm. There are 25 videos. Every video should be done at least 2 times, once in the morning and once at night. Or 2 days in a row.
The videos run about 30 minutes, with 20 minutes of stretching and a 10 minute relaxation period at the end. One of the students has a slight limitation and he has had to do the exercises differently to accommodate his disability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzPISuhFvkY&list=PLvy0K4S9D5SxGMS-yS8zKH9KBRmfyTdbI
These videos really help with my flexibility and I took the online course.

The Man who Wasn’t Thursday UNITED STATES on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 11:49 PM said:
The Man who Wasn’t Thursday wrote:
@ Lydia:
By the way, George MacDonald is the antidote to Calvinism (and C.S. Lewis by extension). They, plus Chesterton, pulled me irresistibly away from Reformed theology. Oh, yeah, and seeing people around me get destroyed. That has a way of leaving a bad aftertaste.
Wow. I realize the potential misunderstanding in what I wrote:”George Macdonald is the antidote to…(C.S. Lewis by extension).” It should have been, “George MacDonald (and C.S. Lewis by extension) are the antidote…”
C.S. Lewis was certainly not a Calvinist!

Ken F UNITED STATES on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 06:55 PM said:
Lydia wrote:
Me: I believe in free will choice
YRR: So, you think you can save yourself, huh?
Here is a list of 119 similar conversations: http://blog.savetheperishing.com/114-contradictions-from-calvinists/

@ Beaux:

Thanks for posting it here. Looks interesting. I am booked solid for the month of January, but when I come up for air in February I will watch it.

roebuck UNITED STATES on Sat Feb 04, 2017 at 05:10 PM said:
ishy wrote:
Ken F wrote:
The YRR’s have a funny relationship with the word “all.” It means “all” when it suits them, but it means “some” when it doesn’t. The charge of universalism is unfounded if we take the Bible as a whole. It’s possible to believe in unlimited atonement while also believing that that some people will reject Jesus’ sacrifice for themselves. That does not make God less sovereign.
I’ve always been a bit mystified by my Calvinista friends who are the first to shout they are more biblical than everyone else, and then then avoid verses like you mentioned like the plague. “That doesn’t count!” isn’t an argument for being biblical or logical.
Not so related, I’ve noticed something over the past few weeks. All the big Bible searches I’ve used for a long time have removed the KJV and NASB with Strong’s numbers, so you can’t look up the Greek text as you go. I know at least three of the big ones are associated with Bible translation publishers.

I use a free Bible program called ‘Xiphos’, which has the KJV with Strongs numbers and the Greek and Hebrew lexicons. Available for Windows and Linux at xiphos.org

Jerome UNITED STATES on Wed Feb 08, 2017 at 05:21 PM said:
Jonathan Merritt of Religion News Service interviews Carol Howard Merritt, author of “Healing Spiritual Wounds: Reconnecting With a Loving God After Experiencing a Hurtful Church”:
http://gazette.com/hurt-by-the-church-its-time-to-talk-about-it/article/1596255
“RNS: Are there particular kinds of churches that seem to inflict harm disproportionately?
CHM: Yes, there are certain churches that can be more complicit in abuse. Religion has the capacity to inspire us to be peaceful, loving, and fully human in the best sense, or it can make us controlling, violent, and cruel. We can learn a lot about how a church inflicts harm by listening for the ways that they describe God. People reflect the God they worship. So if people focus on an angry God, then they become angry people. On the other hand, if people worship a loving God, then they can be inspired to move about in the world as a beloved community.”
“RNS: What about ‘new Calvinism?’ I know people who feel these types of churches inflict a disproportionate amount of pain. What do you think?
CHM: I’m a Calvinist and a pastor in the largest Presbyterian denomination, with the deepest historic roots. I study and teach alongside feminist theologians and biblical scholars. We read Calvin with a generous lens, as people who are reformed and still reforming.
I don’t have a lot of experience with new Calvinism. I was confused when people disparaged Calvinists as ultra-conservative, or writers who talk about Calvinists as something completely different from the largest and most historic streams of thought. The main exposure I have to new Calvinism are the avatars who attack me and other women writers regularly online. I physically wince when I think about them, like a dog who has been hit by her owner. So if we’re judging social media interactions, it seems new Calvinism stands in the forefront of Christians who inflict pain.”

Here is psychologist/author/Undue Influence expert Steve Hassan’s website about
how high control groups/Thought Reform groups work to exert Undue Influence over
people. It is the BITE Model. That stands for Behavior Control, Information Control,
Thought Control, and Emotional Control. (It is based on the work of Hassan’s mentor,
Dr. Robert Jay Lifton, former Air Force psychiatrist now at Yale University, who
studied the Chinese Communists and their control of people.)
https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model/

Brad/FuturistGuy who comments here has done excellent research and written articles on his blog about Dr. Robert Jay Lifton’s ground-breaking research about how high-control groups work. Here: https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/the-hunger-games-trilogy-5a/

JYJames UNITED STATES on Mon Apr 03, 2017 at 04:08 PM said:
@ Talmidah:
Thanks so much, Talmidah. I must say, the story of James McBride’s mom in “The Color of Water” really spoke to our family. His mom is a goddess.

Geoff S. UNITED STATES on Wed Apr 05, 2017 at 01:26 PM said:
@ Deb:
To anyone affiliated with TWW who, in response to the comment that I posted yesterday, would like to know why Calvinism and Reformed are not synonyms (strictly-speaking, popular usage notwithstanding), let me offer an introductory answer.
“Calvinism,” at its core, stands for God’s sovereignty in election, representing as it does the so-called Five Points of Calvinism. Calvinism is easily transferable from one type of church to another. There are plenty of Calvinistic Baptists and some Calvinistic Methodists. It is also transferable to para-church/incorporated entities like Desiring God or Grace to You or TGC or Together for the Gospel or Nine Marks or whatever, i.e., to entities that are not churches and not the church.
So Calvinism is about how God sovereignly saves His elect by applying Christ’s redemptive work to them through His Holy Spirit. This is not an exhaustive definition, but it is a working one.
It hardly begins to represent John Calvin’s thinking and theology. Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion is a big, thick book that covers Christian life, faith, and worship in such a comprehensive way that it remains a classic text for Reformed churches throughout the world. To be sure, Calvin clearly held to at least four of his own Five Points, but that represents a fraction of his theological legacy.
Reformed Christianity is that branch of the Reformation that took hold in Switzerland–associated closely with Zurich and Geneva–and made its way to Holland (the Dutch Reformed) and to England and Scotland (Presbyterianism). It also found a home in Germany. The Reformed faith came to America with the immigrants from these countries and continued on here, sometimes in more exclusively ethnic communions (Dutch and German), sometimes in fewer ethnic communions (Presbyterians and Congregationalists).
Reformed Christianity is a Word and Sacrament faith based firmly in the church. It is almost by definition suspicious of anything para-church, where individuals with charismatic personalities derive their authority from their popularity and not from the church’s (often multi-tiered) government. Reformed Christianity embraces worship forms that are regulated by Holy Scripture. Reformed Christianity defines itself by its outstanding creeds and catechisms. And Reformed Christianity is redemptive-historical–i.e., it reads the Scripture as the outworking of God’s singular redemptive plan in history, which is recorded for us in the Old and New Testaments.
A personal word: the covenant theology contained that is the hallmark of the Reformed faith’s British branch is its theological crown jewel. I do not recall ever hearing a word about it from the Calvinistas. In my mind, a Calvinist without covenant theology is … just another Calvinist; he (and it is almost invariably a he!) is not Reformed.
One additional point: Definitions include what a thing is and what a thing is not. I am currently doing an SS series called Evangelicalism’s 10 Harmful Tendencies. I’ve used TWW for some of my research. Calvinists are often right at home in evangelicalism, while Reformed (and probably the conservative Lutheran churches) are not so at home. So, Reformed Christianity resists evangelical tendencies that put personalities above the church, that exalt individualism over the community, that encourage feelings over facts, and make pragmatism their guiding rule for ministry. And, as one Reformed acquaintance put it, when he was comparing New Calvinism to Old Calvinism (i.e., the Reformed faith): “The New Calvinism uses words like robust, vibrant, embrace and lots of adverbs.
Old Calvinists don’t.”
I hope this helps!

Dee’s comment.

Jack wrote:

Maybe individual christians reject it (or modify it or make peace with it in some other way) but for me it’s always been the elephant in the room.

You are correct Jack. It is one of many difficult things in the Old Testament. Take, for example, the utter destruction of certain people groups-including their children, horses, etc.

Years ago, I went through a crisis of faith of sorts. I then started to explore the *hard stuff* in the Bible. I bet you expect me to say that I found all the answers. I didn’t and I haven’t. But I did find some.

For me, I found it helpful to realize that I was not the first to read such difficult stories and find them hard to take. Yet, many like me still found that the Bible best described the world that I see around me. I well recognize my shortcomings as well as my guilt. That guilt finds forgiveness in the person of Jesus

There have been many people who have taken on the elephants (there are many) in the room. They do not deny it as they struggle with it yet they still believe. Are they deceived. I don’t think so.

There is a decent book (no-it doesn’t have all the answers) but it deals wth some of this. Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God

https://www.amazon.com/God-Moral-Monster-Making-Testament-ebook/dp/B004EPYPY4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491489346&sr=8-1&keywords=Is+God+a+Moral+MOnster

I do not mean to give you advice. I do know that I have been there and now find myself more at peace after searching for years for answers to these difficult questions.

An excellent book from a Southerner with all kinds of great biscuit recipes!

Biscuit Bliss by James Villas

(I bought my copy from Amazon.)

Christiane on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 08:42 PM said:
Velour wrote:
My friends are smart, well-educated, kind, decent people. They are doctors, nurses, dentists, dermatologists, lawyers, college professors, and writers.
I defend them because they are lovely people.
There’s a great series on Netflix about people from Turkey that gives some insight into just how ‘normal’ and human people from the old Ottoman Empire are portrayed. It’s called 1001 Nights. I saw this series and thought, ‘my goodness, if our dear American people who have no clue about the people of Islamic heritage, this series might open a few eyes. I loved the character portrayals. It does confront some of the same issues we struggle with concerning the place of women in our own ‘western’ culture, and I found that revealing also.
Problem in our country is how little contact people have with those from the Islamic nations. You have been fortunate, as I have, in meeting and knowing some very fine people who are Muslims. Unfortunately, there is big money in certain circles to foster Islamophobia in our own country in both political and also some religious circles ….. It is notable that our Jewish friends do NOT support Islamophobia …. Sadly, I think we know why they have such a hatred for discrimination based on ethnic, racial, or religious prejudice. They know how the story ends.

Pastor Ken Garrett’s dissertation for his Ph.D. Topic: Spiritual Abuse in the Church and Recovery from it.

Ken lives in Oregon and is a friend of Julie Anne’s at Spiritual Sounding Board.
https://gracebiblechurchpdx.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/3-27-17-spiritual-abuse-in-the-church-dissertation-final.pdf

Ken F UNITED STATES on Mon May 22, 2017 at 09:17 PM said:
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
How do you get around Matthew 25: 31-46? It can’t simply be dismissed as a shopworn debate. It. Is. In. The. Bible. In fact, it is a lengthy and prominent Biblical passage. It *demands* a response. How does one get around it?
Brad Jersak is an author/teacher I recently came across. He was Calvinist but is now Eastern Orthodox. This article does not address Matthew 25, but it raises some very good questions that get to the heart of your question: http://www.clarion-journal.com/clarion_journal_of_spirit/2011/05/bradj-jersak-who-you-callin-a-universalist.html.

Recommended by Lea:

Another ot: I don’t know if anyone is watching the keepers on Netflix, but it’s really intense. School abuse of young girls by a priest (and more).

Last year Velour posted a list of links I made to articles contradicting penal substitutionary atonement (PSA). This is a slightly updated list.
http://perichoresis.org/redeeming-genius/
http://perichoresis.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/God-in-the-Hands-of-Angry-Sinners.pdf
http://preachersinstitute.com/2011/06/02/orthodox-problems-with-penal-substitution/
http://www.pravmir.com/the-original-christian-gospel/
http://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/gods-righteousness
http://reknew.org/2014/06/why-did-god-require-animal-sacrifice-in-the-old-testament/
http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-christus-victor-view-of-the-atonement/
http://www.throwbackchristianity.com/leviticus-1711-and-penal-substitution/
http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2011/11/09/the-recapitulation-theory/
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2014/02/24/the-death-of-jesus-as-sacrifice-an-orthodox-reading-of-isaiah-53-and-romans-325/
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/ReardonExpatiation.php
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=35999.0
http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2007/09/21/whats-at-stake-in-the-atonement/
http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2011/02/biblical-view-of-christs-death.html
https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-symbol-of-faith/redemption
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_wrath_of_god
http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A.php?c=Salvation-Blood+Sacrifices+and+Forgiveness
http://www.antiochian.org/node/17816
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/46463.htm
http://therebelgod.com/AtonementFathersEQ.pdf
http://therebelgod.com/CrossPaper.pdf
http://www.biblical-theology.net/ANTI-PENAL%20SUBSTITUTION.htm
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2012/06/22/the-wrath-of-god-satisfied/
https://fullermag.fuller.edu/christus-victor-the-salvation-of-god-and-the-cross-of-christ/
http://www.covenantoflove.net/theology/the-problem-with-christus-victor-part-1/
http://formerfundy.blogspot.com/2010/08/george-macdonald-on-penal-substitution.html
http://bjorkbloggen.com/2013/03/15/the-penal-substitution-theory-is-not-biblical-youtube-film-about-the-atonement-of-christ/
http://www.academia.edu/2019111/Punishing_and_Atoning_A_New_Critique_of_Penal_Substitution
http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2011/09/why-i-cannot-in-good-conscience-be-a-protestant/
http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/why-im-becoming-orthodox-2-of-3/
http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2007/07/why-do-so-many-catholics-believe-in.html
http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2014/04/does-catholic-view-of-christs-atonement.html
http://www.clarion-journal.com/clarion_journal_of_spirit/2013/10/punished-for-or-by-our-sins-the-suffering-servant-of-isaiah-53-santo-calarco.html

Jim Gifford UNITED STATES on Sun May 28, 2017 at 01:28 PM said:
Ken F wrote:
The word to look up is apokatastasis.
Beware the doctrine of apokatastasis. Its “origin” is Origen of Alexandria. The roots of the apokatastasis are the same as those of what we call Calvinism, which is the identification of the simplicity of the Platonic One with that of God the Father. The Platonic One was utterly simple and without any kind of differentiation. That means what the One does is identical to what the One is. When Origen used such a definition of God in his “On First Principles,” the immediate corollary is the blurring of the distinction between the generation of the Son and the creation of the world (Arianism comess from this, as does ESS). Origen therefore needed the apokatastasis to allow all of wayward creation to “return” to the Father, since they were all “one” in a very real way.
Calvinism, and its older incarnation, Augustinian determinism, is an offshoot of the same idea. In Calvinism, especially the variety espoused by Jonathan Edwards, the created world is nothing more than an extension of the mind (Edwards) or the will (Calvin) of God. Therefore the world and God are “one” in the same way as Origen and his disciple Augustine envisioned.
The 5th ecumenical council (Constantinople II) condemned the doctrine of apokatastasis in the mid-6th century. Both Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism recognize this council. Don’t reject the poisoned apples for the poisoned pears.
Jim G.

ishy UNITED STATES on Thu Jun 01, 2017 at 04:02 PM said:
okrapod wrote:
@ Lea:
Yes. I never heard it said seriously. But then, this resurgence of talk about both slavery and the civil war is more discussion of either than I heard for decades before this. I don’t know how this all got started, but it is odd that now this all comes up again.
I am suddenly reminded of a few things I have read by both Piper and Bruce Ware, emphasizing the “man’s place” returning to an earthly kingdom. And in a kingdom, everyone is really a slave to the King.
John Piper writes: “God has revealed himself to us in the Bible pervasively as King, not Queen, and as Father, not Mother. The second person of the Trinity is revealed as the eternal Son. The Father and the Son created man and woman in his image, and gave them together the name of the man, Adam (Genesis 5:2). God appoints all the priests in Israel to be men. The Son of God comes into the world as a man, not a woman. He chooses twelve men to be his apostles. The apostles tell the churches that all the overseers—the pastor/elders who teach and have authority should be men.”
Bruce Ware writes “What we see, then, is this: Because the Father is the eternal Father of the eternal Son, the Father always acts in ways that befit who he distinctively is as Father such that, among other things, he eternally possesses and expresses Fatherly authority; the Son as the eternal Son of the eternal Father correspondingly always acts in ways that befit who he distinctively is as Son such that, among other things, he eternally possesses and expresses a submission to act gladly and freely as Agent of the Father. The Bible’s discussion of the roles and functions of the Trinitarian persons points to this repeatedly. The Father sends and the Son goes. The Father plans and the Son executes the plan of the Father. The Father designs and the Son implements the design of the Father. One never finds the reverse. One never sees the Son commanding and the Father obeying, the Son sending and the Father going. There is a stubborn irreversibility in the outworking of the Trinitarian roles, along with other clear, unambiguous teaching that the Son is fully equal to and one with the Father.”
I think Piper is dead wrong here. I think earthly kings were exactly opposite of how Jesus wanted to represent Himself. God is better than our idea of a King, and I don’t think He wants us to think of Him that way and Jesus makes that clear to the disciples over and over again. He’s God, not emperor or king.
And Ware set up ESS theology and then compares men to this absolute king. Aside from the way it treats women, no one in TGC talks about where this puts men once you go deeper than that point. There’s only one king, but they all want to set themselves up as kings with everyone as their slaves. Nearly all of the New Calvinist leaders appointed themselves or their friends. They assigned themselves authority over others. It’s something straight out of a fantasy novel (apologies to GRR Martin).

Original link from Ishy.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Velour wrote:
http://www.epsociety.org/userfiles/Horner%20(Augustine).pdf
The suffix “.pdf” should be part of the link and it isn’t.
Copy/paste the whole URL into the URL box on your browser and it’ll come up.
Thanks, H.U.G.
That did the trick.