“We didn’t know at all
We didn’t see a thing
You can’t hold us to blame
What could we do
It was a terrible shame
But we can’t bear the blame
Oh no, not us, we didn’t know.”
Tom Paxton

A second and equally important question to the question of whether elders and church leaders knew what was happening and the correlating issue of whether elders knew and chose not to communicate that information to others is what Debbie Morris, Robert Morris’s wife, knew and chose not to communicate.

It is clear that Robert lied frequently and consistently over the past 40 years about his history of child sexual abuse. Every single time he lied, Debbie would have knowingly and intentionally lied by omission, by not correcting the story.

She knew and chose not to correct his origin story of marital infidelity, which made him so relatable to others. Is she legally liable? I don’t know. Is she liable within church rules and guidelines? I don’t know. But she is morally liable for choosing her and her husband’s success over the victim of her husband’s Sexual Assault.

It will be interesting to see if Gateway or the Morris family bring her out for a tearful act of, “I forgive my husband so you should too.”

I believe the elders knew the details, just like I believe the leaders at RZIM knew what was going on. I believe both groups protected their meal ticket in the name of preserving the “ministry for the kingdom”.

What I want to know is, why was Morris allowed to be a minister at all after he admitted to a “consensual” sexual relationship (especially when married)? He should have been disqualified right then and there. The fact that child abuse allegedly took place makes this whole thing triply more heinous.

Is it any wonder that people are deconstructing and leaving the institutional church??
I mean, good grief! How long, O Lord, will you tolerate the evil being done by “pastors” in the “church” claiming to be ministering in your name??

I wonder if we will see anyone with integrity take a stand. A pastor who can stay working at such a place knowing the elders knew is agreeing with it without saying it. Actions speak!

Tom Rubino: What I want to know is, why was Morris allowed to be a minister at all after he admitted to a “consensual” sexual relationship (especially when married)?

While I don’t know the thinking of the parties involved, I think that people who want to find justification for the elevation/restoration of grievous transgressors into important places of ministry can, with selective reading, find that in both OT and NT. The NT example, of course, is Paul, who was involved in the persecution of the Jerusalem church (IIRC, he even participated in judicial proceedings that led to sentences of death).

This isn’t to defend those uses of the text, merely to note that the stories are there and sometimes are pointed to as precedents. I personally don’t think that it’s an accurate use of Paul’s precedent — the path to which he was appointed as a servant of the Gospel was from the outset a path of deep suffering (“I will show him how much he must suffer for my name’s safe”). There’s a sense in which post-conversion Paul for the rest of his life “reaped the harvest” of the sins the pre-conversion Paul had committed. Conversion to Christ and repentance were not “get out of jail free” cards for Paul. It certainly wasn’t a ticket to fame, power and wealth.

Paul really did “make God famous” among the Gentiles. It is not hard to imagine that RM’s ministry may have a different long-term outcome.

More thoughts:

In my view, Evangelical Christianity (at least in the USA) needs to be completely revamped.

In a recent comment on a different thread, I expressed my view that Evangelical Christianity has severely corrupted and debased itself by idolatrously pledging allegiance to the antichrist ideologies of zionism, remnant theology, and dispensationalism. It reminds me of the prostitute in Revelation 17.

Another huge problem is the phenomenon of grifting, self-promoting, attention-seeking celebrity pastors/evangelists. Instead of humbly preaching the Gospel and emulating Jesus Christ and trying to follow the example that Jesus set, modern American-style evangelical Christianity has become obsessed with earthly fame, status, wealth, and prestige.

Take, for example, the now-disgraced Ravi Zacharias and his ministry. It was called “Ravi Zacharias International Ministries”. Um, wait a second. Shouldn’t it be called Jesus Christ International Ministries? The fact that he named the ministry after himself rather than Jesus is an example of the showmanship and self-promotion endemic in modern evangelical Christianity.

Another example is the attention-seeking dudebro celebrity pastors who preach on Sunday mornings wearing sneakers and T-shirts to show off how “hip” and “cool” they are. The celebrity pastors strut around on the altar preening and sanctimoniously grandstanding. It reeks of arrogance and narcissism.

The celebrity pastors, in their insatiable lust for publicity, write “best-selling” books, which frequently contain harmful advice that has a destructive influence on real people’s lives. Josh Harris and his ridiculous book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” comes to mind. He posed as a wise “Christian” leader who people could trust for life advice, and then he basically said “oops!” and flounced off, and now he isn’t even a Christian anymore. Don’t the celebrity pastors writing these “best-selling” books realize that real people are being hurt by their bad advice? How many people’s lives have been negatively impacted by this sort of nonsense? Will the celebrity pastors take responsibility and acknowledge the harm that their bad advice and false teachings have caused to countless people?

At many megachurches, Sunday services seem to be mainly focused on glorifying the celebrity pastor and showing off how rich the church is and how impressive their building/facilities are.

Sunday church services used to be humble, solemn and reverential. These days, the opposite is true. In the megachurches, Sunday services have become flamboyant, ostentatious, exhibitionist circuses that resemble celebrity rock concerts rather than Christian worship.

In many ways, American evangelical Christianity has become more like a business, and less about following Jesus Christ.

It is very disturbing.

In my view, the modern phenomena of megachurches and celebrity pastors is to be deplored.

Only Jesus Christ is indispensable to Christianity.

No pastor or church or ministry is indispensable or irreplaceable.

Instead of focusing on becoming famous and attracting as many people (and tithes) as possible to their church, pastors should focus on humbly preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and emulating Jesus.

The entire concept of megachurches is dubious, in my view. No pastor is so awesome and amazing that they need 10,000 people attending their church every week.

The focus of a Sunday church service should be on Jesus Christ, not on a celebrity pastor.

Evangelical Christianity should return to the Christian model that existed prior to the corrupt and decadent celebrity pastor megachurch era.

In my view, we as Christians should strive to have smaller churches where everyone is known and loved and cared for, rather than immense megachurches that feel more like a city than a Christian community.

Sunday services should return to being humble and reverential, as they were in the past.

What American Evangelical Christianity needs is humility.

I am 100% upset about the SA of a minor! However, even that could have been repented from, counseling and help given to the victim, transparency and honesty from RMorris. I believe God can forgive if someone is truly repentent. But RM tried to cover it up and was not honest. I think had he been repentent and HONEST from the beginning, maybe he could have still eventually gone on in ministry, on a smaller scale, with elders keeping him accountable and putting safeguards in place. God can and does use people who have done terrible things. But those people have been repentant, sought to make the wrong right, and been honest and open about it all.

As a SA survivor, I am a tiny bit more angry at RM for years of covering it up and bring dishonest about it, than I am about the incident by itself. I hope that makes sense. I am in NO WAY lessening the abhorrent abuse that happened, just that the cover up compounds it 100%.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/XQGA9D4odqoRz72W/?mibextid=WC7FNe

This is Tom Lane‘s response on his Facebook page. As a former member of Gateway Church I thought Tom Lane was one of the good guys. I met him in 2006 shortly after I met my husband. We were married a year later by a Gateway pastor. I say this to show that I was all in for this wonderful church and all it had to offer until my husband and I started having financial issues. Prior to the financial issues we would entertain Gateway pastors at our home and once the financial issues became public knowledge The Gateway pastors were no longer interested in socializing with us. Needless to say I recognized really quickly that it was all about the money.
As a survivor of sexual assault, my heart goes out to you Cindy. I am sick over the fact that Pastor Robert hid it and so did the elders. He always preached from the pulpit that he had an inappropriate relationship with a young lady and Debbie had forgiven him. There’s a huge huge huge difference between being an adulterer And being a pedophile!!! The fact that Debbie Morris would call you and say she forgives you is absolutely horrible!!! It is really affected me and caused me to do further research and I now realize how rampant sexual abuse is across all religions and congregations it is absolutely disgusting!! You can say that these men are under attack because of the good deeds that they’re doing and trying to lead the church But I’m not buying it!! They use their position of power to manipulate women and it has to stop!!!!!
Signed very disgusted saddened former member of Gateway.

Even if originally Tom Lane didn’t know all the details in the beginning, he knew enough that he should have asked more questions. Ok, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt and maybe Morris convincingly lied to him back then. Very likely.

But then in 2005 and in 2009 when it was brought up again, he 100% had the responsibility to more fully investigate, whether that be by contacting Shady Grove personnel, people who knew Morris back then, or even Cindy herself!! To me, the issue isn’t whether Tom knew or not, but that when it was brought up again in the 2000’s, he CHOSE to not find out more about what the ‘incident’ was about, he CHOSE not to investigate, he CHOSE to accept the word of Morris.

I think there is something to be said about people from that generation though. In talking to likewise-aged people within my own circle, I have heard comments like “but look how much good Morris has done, we wouldn’t have that had he gone to prison back then”, or “you have to weigh the bad against the good and he has done far more good”, “the news shouldn’t be sensationalizing this now”, etc. Yes, actual comments!!!! And worse! I think the mindset of that generation was that SA shouldn’t be mentioned publicly, but quietly dealt with.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

The intent of Morris and his elders comes to light. It gets worse every day.

Lawyers can be fools at times. Or, maybe the lawyer told Morris to tell Cindy this, but putting it in writing wasn’t supposed to happen.

Christie Christian:
There’s a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference between being an adulterer And being a pedophile!!! The fact that Debbie Morris would call you and say she forgives you is absolutely horrible!!! …..They use their position of power to manipulate women and it has to stop!!!!!

Years ago when an incident happened to me (at a church) and it was finally found out I was asked by one of the church-adults if I wanted them to file a report. Before I could answer, they went on to explain that if the man went to jail or if he had to pay a large fine, then his family would probably never come back to church again. And how would I feel knowing his young children (who I’d babysat) might not be saved because they no longer came to church? So duh – I did what any very young teen would do under pressure – and said, “no, that’s ok don’t file the report.” Because he was asked to step away from his church duties (not the level of pastor or elder), it did cause a bit of a ruckus among those who found out why. So at some further point, I was asked to write a letter of apology to his wife including how I hoped they’d to continue to come to church, etc. [Honestly, I’ve mostly forgotten what I wrote, but I can remember the color of paper I wrote my letter on and I can remember being taken to their house to drop it off.]

My guilt, decades later, is that because he wasn’t held accountable back then, he may have (likely) gone on to do the same to others. My inaction and my silence may have contributed to someone else’s pain.

I simply cannot believe that this was Robert Morris’s only incident. Hopefully he wised up and never did this again to a child!!! However, I’d be willing to bet money that he has used his position of power and influence to have inappropriate relationships with other ladies.

Wow. Just wow. The brazenness of the denial in this and other “christian” abuse cases just continues to floor me.

All I can say is they are lucky this didn’t happen in California. Here the state recently rescinded the statute of limitations on childhood sexual abuse cases, and there have been civil verdicts in the many tens of millions of dollars as a result, as well as criminal convictions I believe. The rescinding of the limitations will only last a few years, but it is a good opportunity for victims to at least get some measure of delayed justice.

Ydoesthiskeephappening,

You were treated horriably, may I say, in a depraved manner by the Church folk..

for me the betrayal is double ! He betrayed the trust of his friends giving him a place to rest. Many times ! And then in the video Todd put he dare preach to men who want to have a little fun. ! Really it is so upsetting. No moral. Nothing christian.

They’re not under attack because of the good things they’ve done: they’re under attack because of their sin and lying about it.

Ydoesthiskeephappening: Even if originally Tom Lane didn’t know all the details in the beginning, he knew enough that he should have asked more questions.

That’s just the difference between an Unindicted Co-Conspirator and an Accessory After the Fact.
Ask a lawyer or judge what those mean.
It’s not good.

Donna: If only all the men/woman involved in the coverup would have put their own daughters in Cindy’s position from the beginning, this may have been handled properly from the beginning.

Not necessarily.

Christian Monist has recounted that in his childhood Baptist church in rural Tennessee, it was an open secret that one of the elders (or assistant pastor, or choir director/worship leader, I don’t remember which) was a closet Predatory Pedophile. (But boy could he Preach and/or sing hymns like an Angel!)

When a new family with children joined the church, the established families would Piously steer the noobs to Pastor Pedo so Pastor Pedo would slake hie Appetites on THEIR kids, not OURS. They obviously had no problem as long as it wasn’t THEIR sons or daughters.

Sandy:
Gus,

See Me
Feel Me
Touch Me
Heal Me
Listening to you, I get the music
Gazing at you, I get the heat
Following you, I climb the mountain
I get excitement at your feet
Right behind you, I see the millions
On you, I see the glory
From you, I get opinion
From you, I get the story

That’s from “Tommy” by The Who, isn’t it?

Going through GW sermon notes reading them before I throw them away. I ran across one from May 31-June 1, 2008, titled The Rules of Refuge. With Adam and Eve, if they had just admitted their sin, God would have had grace on them. A Saint is one who turns to God when they sin. Admit your sin and quit it. Then God is your refuge, otherwise there is no protection. This is from my personal notes, so it may not be verbatim.

dee: Remember, she told young Cindy that she ‘forgave her, ‘ implying Cindy’s culpability. I wonder what goes on in the Morris household. Has she been abused? Has she been threatened? Does she willingly serve as his cover and have a problem of her own? Or is she in it for the money?She is morally culpable unless something is going on that we don’t see.

Yes, the fact that Debbie reached out and told Cindy (the abuser’s wife to the victim of his abuse) she forgave her is so incredulous as to be unbelievable.

The psychological term is gaslighting which is a type of manipulation or abuse that causes a victim to question their own reality, memories, or perceptions. From the little that has been made public, it appears that Debbie was actively involved from the beginning in the process of making Cindy doubt her self-worth and sanity. The goal was to cast 12-year-old Cindy as the powerful agent of seduction and Robert as the young and hapless victim.

Not only that, but every time Robert told his origin story of a ‘harmless indiscretion’, it was a sign from he and Cindy to any other potential victims: “Don’t come after us, because look what we can get away with. There is no way your tiny and inconsequential voice can penetrate through Roberst’s ability to tell a story.”

The letter which Andrea wrote to Morris is an excellent example of how a concerned member should address things whenever dealing with a matter that could affect a church’s very future. There was no immediate accusation, but a showing of genuine concern. It also mentioned that the story was not on some little-known tabloid rag message board, but one operated by an internationally known figure which has wide dissemination (a story from some questionable source should be treated as such – questionable, until a more reputable one does real research).

Sadly, Andrea was lied to by Gateway leadership, led to believe that it was simply part of Morris’ “dark past” about which he has spoken repeatedly.

Ydoesthiskeephappening,

Very good words.

Especially since this would have been the THIRD time (at least) that this issue would have arisen to Lane’s knowledge. And now that Cindy was going outside of Gateway channels and telling her story (albeit a bit anonymously) on a public forum – and one which has a large following and is considered credible in the public’s eyes – Lane should have confronted Morris then and there and forced him to come clean about EVERYTHING.

Max: Evidently, a lot of men have been going into the ministry for that reason given the steady stream of pastors behaving badly.

I disagree with that statement a bit. I believe that many, but not all, clergy start off with good intentions.

Somewhere along the way, they get caught up in their own hubris and righteousness. They realize that they can move a room to tears or adulation with their words. Ironically, many of the same skills that make them dynamic and exciting preachers also enable them to manipulate the people around them.

They are able to wrap themselves in the blanket that, “I am a good God-fearing person; therefore, what I do is good.” It is really easy to label anyone who challenges their behavior as doing the work of the devil.

And, as you say, parishioners have spent their entire lives learning that it is their role to listen, learn, and tithe while it is the leaders’ job to talk and teach.

Combine hubris and a lack of accountability with well-understood and enforced roles, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I don’t disagree with you; I’m just trying to understand why this keeps happening without painting all clergy and churches with too broad a brush.

dave: I’m just trying to understand why this keeps happening without painting all clergy and churches with too broad a brush.

I truly believe that the vast majority of pastors are good and faithful servants of God. But since we can’t be sure until we know that we know them, folks in the pew need to have their guard up to protect themselves and their families from those who are not.

To understand “why” this is happening, perhaps we need to focus on “where” this is happening. Mega-mania appears to have more than their share of bad actors. The limelight and applause has distracted some from staying true to Christ and His call on their lives. When they become celebrity personalities, some will forget the person of Christ. But, of course, this problem is not limited to large churches, you can find unfaithfulness in small churches as well.

If you’ve sexually assaulted a minor, you don’t get to be a minister. Ever!

Go find another profession and another way to serve.

Also, I’m confused by these two bullets.
Could you clarify?

•Pastor Robert reportedly wanted to share about this immoral incident.
•Lane and Smith felt it was not necessary to share about this situation.

BZ: What am I missing? Have I misread something? Not rhetorical questions.

I would be hesitant to read too much into this documentation release. If I understand the situation correctly, Cindy has hired Boz Tchividjian as her legal counsel.

As such, this cache of documents is (probably) not meant to prove the case of abuse; rather, it is meant as a shot across the bow, letting Morris and Gateway know that this is a well-prepared accusation that has the potential to pull in many people, both current and past.

If everything was released up front, they could deal with it and move on. Now, everyone involved is scrambling to figure out their potential exposure and if Morris and/or Gateway are going to throw them under the bus, so to speak.

In these sorts of cases, the coverup tends to be worse than the crime… if it is possible to say that about child sexual assault.

Max: I truly believe that the vast majority of pastors are good and faithful servants of God.

dave: I believe that many, but not all, clergy start off with good intentions.

Really?

1. Is this projecting, by a couple of well intentioned, would never ever do this myself … guys? (Maybe you don’t think like a predator, eh?) Data says predators think differently, says Roy Hazelwood’s research. Have you bothered to read his work before making these statements? Folksy to make statements without facts, and create folklore.

2. What do you know, really, about what goes on when you’re not around? What really happens to women and girls, unfortunately, in high numbers, in hidden opportunities? There’s data.

3. Finally, Andrew S. Denney, now at UTC, has published research on clergy predators, and specifically clergy predator pedophiles. Did you bother to follow the link Dee posted and read his work before sharing ignorance of, “I believe…” yada yada?

Do guys with a mic rule the room with, “I believe…” and their wishful thinking about their fellow GUYS who are clergy, instead of facts? That’s what gets us to these types of horrible situations. Folklore about clergy. Not facts.

“I believe … ” spoken by men about what women and girls experience, NOT based on facts, is hubris. As godly church people, we can do better.

Listen. Read the research. Learn the facts that surpass church folklore. Then share the facts, with thoughts about FACTS.

Thanks, in advance. Much appreciated.

Commenter23: Debbie Morris seems like an enabler. I guess having the status of a megachurch pastor’s wife is more important to her than doing what is morally right. I did a google search for her name just now, and the first result is her Instagram page, with the tagline “As a mom, I never want my kids to experience pain.” What a hypocrite.

… with a cold as a boulder hardened stone heart inflicting mega pain on someone else’s 12 year old child. Cold. Just cold. Doesn’t get any colder. And evil.

dave: It seems others have a much better understanding of the situation than I do.

As data, facts, and bonafide experiences unfold on TWW (thank God for Dee and the other watch bloggers “Daughters & Sons of Stan”), we all are growing and better informed about what really goes on in our churches, and among our clergy. We don’t just believe, we know, God help us.

This latest research by Andrew Denney at UTC is mind blowing and belief shattering, really. Thank God for Denney’s work and for Dee who published the link.

Thank God we have the facts about a $117M preacher, who is also a pedophile predator. That, too, is mindblowing and so earth shattering, many don’t want to believe it.

Obviously, the clergy don’t read the research, nor listen to bonafide experiences that bust the myths about clergy, nor study the data. And it’s all about them, so there’s no self awareness at all. Well, Wade Burleson does; we need more like him.

Headless Unicorn Guy: the involuntary smirk of Triumph

Look at photos of Paul Pressler. You’ll find that there. Or “chuckles”, a.k.a “the humble one”.

Ava Aaronson,

Ava Aaronson:
Really?

1. Is this projecting, by a couple of well intentioned, would never ever do this myself … guys? (Maybe you don’t think like a predator, eh?) Data says predators think differently, says Roy Hazelwood’s research. Have you bothered to read his work before making these statements? Folksy to make statements without facts, and create folklore.

2. What do you know, really, about what goes on when you’re not around? What really happens to women and girls, unfortunately, in high numbers, in hidden opportunities? There’s data.

3. Finally, Andrew S. Denney, now at UTC, has published research on clergy predators, and specifically clergy predator pedophiles. Did you bother to follow the link Dee posted and read his work before sharing ignorance of, “I believe…” yada yada?

Do guys with a mic rule the room with, “I believe…” and their wishful thinking about their fellow GUYS who are clergy, instead of facts? That’s what gets us to these types of horrible situations. Folklore about clergy. Not facts.

“I believe … ” spoken by men about what women and girls experience, NOT based on facts, is hubris. As godly church people, we can do better.

Listen. Read the research. Learn the facts that surpass church folklore. Then share the facts, with thoughts about FACTS.

Thanks, in advance. Much appreciated.

Very well said, Ava.

Church girl:
What is disturbing is seeing all the members of Gateway on Facebook gush over the weekend service like everything is OK. They are moving forward with their feel-good, entertainment services…

Rachelle and I asked Cindy at dinner last night about the line, “Men that have over 100 counts of child molestation go to prison.” After Cindy’s response, we were in no mood for dessert.

Gateway members will soon be in no mood for entertainment.

Wade Burleson: Rachelle and I asked Cindy at dinner last night about the line, “Men that have over 100 counts
of child molestation go to prison.” After Cindy’s response, we were in no mood for dessert.

Gateway members will soon be in no mood for entertainment.

Dear Sir:

Victims of statutory abuse/ sexual assault have a justified need to talk about it. They need to be heard from, darkness exposed by the light, for their own healing, and to help stop the cycle of victimization in our world.

IMO, Cindy is a gracious woman of deep faith and maturity, who has become brave, and taken the right action. Thank you too for your own bravery in assisting.

We know the secular press will be eager to hear, and broadcast every salacious detail offered. In interviews they will dig for more detail–the nastier the better.

I pray the Holy Spirit reveals to Cindy and her confidants the ethical, moral approach, considering Ephesians 5, as she decides how to
“expose deeds of darkness” without
“Shamefully mentioning” them:

———–
“and find out what pleases the Lord.

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.”

‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭10‬-‭12‬ ‭NIV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/111/eph.5.11-12.NIV

I believe with the right vocabulary, she can say what needs to be said without, creating mental imagery in the minds of men, or, worse, inflaming the imaginations of future perpetrators.

God bless you, and take care

BZ: Church is not supposed to be a top down “i talk. you listen you obey” org.

But that’s exactly what it is. There’s not even a Q and A session at the end. Pastors used to hang out in the aisles or foyer afterwards, greeting people, to where you have a chance to ask a question. Nowadays, they run off the stage and disappear like Michael Jackson jumps in his limo to make his escape from the fans after a concert. The older I get, the more time I’ve wasted, and the more selective I am as to who gets my ear for 30-40 minutes. With the Internet and archived sermons of preachers from everywhere, going back decades, you can pick and choose who to listen to at your convenience. There’s more competition for listeners. Problem is, that’s not in-person fellowship, so we have these things called ‘community groups,’ ‘homegroups,’ ‘neighborhood groups’ etc, if you can even find one anywhere near your neighborhood, at a day/time you can meet, that’s accepting your gender, marital status, age range, parental status, etc. It’s to try and make up for lack of Sunday School in many cases. And if there IS a small group meeting at church on Sunday morning, it’s turned into just another 30 minute sermon where a church authorized speaker gets to lecture the room, with no time for class discussion about anything. You sit, you listen, you leave. You may or may not get to ask for prayer.

Wade Burleson: “Men that have over 100 counts of child molestation go to prison.”

Feature, not a bug.

It’s a lifestyle, a mindset, a heart and soul commitment.

The fact that after 35 years what he says about what he did is still:
– she was a young lady (she was a preteen child of 12)
– she was a Jezebel (she was completely innocent and trusting)
– she was flirtatious (she was in little girl jammies, robe, and undergarments)
– she demanded the relationship go on and not end (she was scared and terrified; moreover, it was rape by a leader in authority over a child-then-a-teen by a grown married-with-his-own-children man, NOT a relationship. Rape is not relationship.).
– his wife says she forgave the 12-year-old girl (for being digitally raped over 5 years by her husband, the predator pastor pedophile? How does one confess to Jesus having been digitally raped for 5 years by a predatory pedophile pastor? Where is that in the Bible?)

The above 5 facts don’t come from a repentant restored offender and his supporting wife, but from an all-in pedophile predator with his all-in partner.

The fact that churchfolk won’t face facts about their predator pedophile leader and his wife, says a great deal about these all-in “churchfolk”, and what they are really into.

Ava Aaronson: share the facts

Ava, the facts I share are based on personal experience of doing church in America for the better part of a century. I have known many pastors who have been faithful … I have served alongside them, prayed with them, wept with them … they have lived lives worthy of their calling as evidenced by the fruit of their ministries. I have used them as a plumbline of the genuine when I comment about the counterfeit we are seeing exposed in the church. My personal experience is not open to the arguments of others. I’m sorry that you haven’t experienced this in church and are seeing only the underbelly of church in your search for facts.

Max: I have known many pastors who have been faithful … I have served alongside them, prayed with them, wept with them … they have lived lives worthy of their calling as evidenced by the fruit of their ministries.

Ava Aaronson, your comment is much needed. Thank you. I look forward to meeting you one day. Any Kingdom person who defends the King and His faithful servants is my friend.

BZ,

Really?

Then you definitely don’t want to read, “Legal Grounds” by yours truly, Ava Aaronson.

It definitely is a take-your-head-out-of-the-sand and face facts exposé about what really goes on with authoritarian men in their façade of fake Christendom. Fake Jesus destroys lives; the full picture of that is not only deadly but blood curdling, creepy, and cringeworthy to see. Fact.

Should we go there? How did Jesus describe the fake predatory authoritarian leaders of his day? Snakes, and prettily decorated eye pleasing tombs of corpses with dead men’s old bones (and stench).

These fakes also turned out to be murderers, executing the Son of God. That evil deed, as described in the Gospels, has been dramatized in gory detail by Hollywood. You probably don’t want to see these films, either. These films are more take-your-head-out-of-the-sand, so maybe not for you.

Definitely don’t read the story of what Ehud did in Judges, chapter 3.

Ava Aaronson,

Debbie Morris is living high on the hog off lots of other people’s money, too. And, I’m sure that being the wife of a “rock star” makes her quite popular among the star worshipers.
If Morris had admitted the truth years ago, Debbie might have had to lower herself to working a 40 hour week at some job she feels is beneath her (and tithing her own hard-earned money at some small, unknown church.
A girl has to prioritize, ya know.

Max, that’s how genuine dialogue occurs. Thank you. Ava, I love your Scriptural insights.

William Wade Burleson,

It’s strange … but I sorta like Ava 🙂

Max: “Corinth Baptist Church” … I wondered what the founding fathers were thinking when they decided to call it that?

Probably nothing beyond “CORINTH IS IN THE BIBLE!”
Ain’t cluelessness fun?

Sandy: Yes.
Tommy is a story of grooming and abuse in a context of religious cult hero worship.
The oldest story in the world?

I remember watching Tommy back in 1977, on Movie Night at the Cal Poly dorms.
Not as weird as Zardoz, but definitely on the spectrum.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): If Morris had admitted the truth years ago, Debbie might have had to lower herself to working a 40 hour week at some job she feels is beneath her (and tithing her own hard-earned money at some small, unknown church.

Or divorce him and hook up with a new Chad Rockstar to maintain her upward momentum to the Life I Deserve.

dave:
A second and equally important question to the question of whether elders and church leaders knew what was happening and the correlating issue of whether elders knew and chose not to communicate that information to others is what Debbie Morris, Robert Morris’s wife, knew and chose not to communicate.

It is clear that Robert lied frequently and consistently over the past 40 years about his history of child sexual abuse. Every single time he lied, Debbie would have knowingly and intentionally lied by omission, by not correcting the story.

She knew and chose not to correct his origin story of marital infidelity, which made him so relatable to others. Is she legally liable? I don’t know. Is she liable within church rules and guidelines? I don’t know. But she is morally liable for choosing her and her husband’s success over the victim of her husband’s Sexual Assault.

It will be interesting to see if Gateway or the Morris family bring her out for a tearful act of, “I forgive my husband so you should too.”

Debbie gave her tacit approval from day one.

Mari Cantos:
They’re not under attack because of the good things they’ve done: they’re under attack because of their sin and lying about it.

But that goes against the Official “PERSECUTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS’ SAKE!” Story.
(Which itself is PROOF of Godliness. Like Bob Larson, I Am So Godly that SATAN Himself gives ME special attention!)

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): living high on the hog off lots of other people’s money, too.

Complicit.

The camouflage family members of a predator pastor drive the getaway car: equally guilty in the eyes of the law.

What about the church base? Are they camou, too? Driving the getaway car? Complicit? Equally guilty in the eyes of the law?

Louisiana’s guv Jeff Landry signed into law that DOJ Judges may order surgical castration for some pedophile offenders of children. Goes into effect in August.

Would this mean a certain predatory pedophile pastor offender would have his offending fingers removed?

It sounds gory but no more than what the pastor offender did to an innocent 12 year old girl in her own home. Less gory than that.

Any guys that want to comment on this, please keep in mind that you don’t own the anatomy that would ever experience this. Just keep that in mind.

We all need each other’s advocacy; we all cannot possibly share the same experiences. So, listening. And guessing that 90% of the talking in churches is done by men. So, balance. Everyone at the table. Jesus shared communion at a table. No altar. No pulpit. A table. There were only men present. Guessing Jesus would extend the invite to women. Around, not under, the table.

Elaine: I just saw a video of RM preaching about the sub-conscious and he actually said the name, Cindy, in the recording.

(insert Twilight Zone music)

The statute of limitations has been rescinded in Texas as well. I think he could be criminally prosecuted.

Why didn’t her parents report Robert to the police way back when they found out this had happened to their daughter? It’s Roberts fault but I think the parents (and others that knew) didn’t do right by this young girl also. They are not blameless either.

Donna: Debbie gave her tacit approval from day one.

Like Mrs. Sandusky in the Penn State Pedo Scandal?

Ydoesthiskeephappening,

I wonder if there are other victims and did they sign NDAs. I wonder if someone could check the church files for all those NDAs. I also wonder what ministries are benefiting financially from Gateway Church and if those benefits have caused leaders not to speak out. There have been a lot of speakers at Gateway over the years. I haven’t heard many of them commenting on this. Where is the outrage in the leadership of ministries?

Archie Grey: but I think the parents (and others that knew) didn’t do right by this young girl also. They are not blameless either.

“but I think … ”

Perhaps it would be helpful to read the full narrative about how this came down over decades before declaring blame and passing judgment. It’s in writing.

Acute listening and reading before opinionating are incredible, perhaps rare, skill.

Regarding reading what’s already been put in writing, the obligation of the girl and her family to have to singularly retell and explain over and over and over again, endlessly reliving the terror and trauma just so the rest of us rubes can stop putting judgment where it doesn’t belong, so the victims can come out from under the cloud of the uninformed public’s “I think” and “my experience” about themselves, with speculations and such … it’s just more suffering for victims.

This is about neither you nor me. It’s not about us except to support victims and to not support predators.

A girl and her family were violently violated and torn apart by their pastor friend. Decades ago and thereafter they are falsely accused and threatened by the very same predator. It seems they, the victims, have also been judged by others who knew.

The predator threatened there would be lawsuits and criminal charges if the girl told the predator’s secret crimes, which is extreme DARVO, Deny Accuse Reverse Victim & Offender.

Like Dee wrote in a tweet, until the predator admits the girl’s age, he has never admitted anything nor been “restored”. Lying about what one did is never confession. It’s adding lies to the original pedophile rape offenses.

Why won’t the predator say her age? Because then he would have to admit that he is a violent pedophile pastor criminal rapist. He has never done that.

Will he ever admit what he has done? Only he knows.

How much silencing does $117M buy?

Has his church put out the call for other victims to come forward?

Who is right now clutching $$$ or demanding more money while they bite their tongue?

Does church get any worse than this?

Can’t make this stuff up.

FreshGrace,

FreshGrace:
https://youtu.be/HPkxaC59_hM

Perhaps others have seen this video of the elder from Gateway – it was posted on the Roys Report.

While much of what he said was good, I really really wish he had not gotten applause from the congregation at any point and especially a standing ovation at the end. I wish every single elder from the church had been up there on the stage with him rather than him saying he spoke ‘for the elders’.I wish we could see or sense a feeling of lamentation from the congregation over the depth of suffering that has been caused and covered up.

Was that all about preventing a mass exodus? I agree a lot of what he said was good, but the fact that Robert was allowed to resign instead of being fired immediately was, in my opinion, poor judgement on the elders part. If they had fired him, it would have indicated how serious they were taking the issue. Standing ovations need to come to an end. Let’s save them for Jesus! The true test will be whether they let RM’s offspring back in the pulpit.

Ava Aaronson,

Thanks Ava for this. We can only repost the same thing so many times.

S Johnson,

Here are my predictions (no betting, please):
Jackson Hole, Wyoming – goes back to independent church status (easier to let them go and concentrate on the DFW area)
North Richland Hills – building sold, it is less than nine miles from Southlake and those who are loyal will simply drive there
North Fort Worth – same as NRH, around 15 miles away
North Dallas – probably spun off as independent church
Plano – same as North Dallas
Justin – this is a brand-new facility but close to Southlake, maybe goes like NRH or North FW
Grand Prairie – same as Plano and North Dallas
Frisco and Prosper – due to growth (and income) in those areas (plus Gateway just spent a bunch of $ on Frisco’s expansion) they probably remain in the fold

The two similarly named churches (Gateway Phoenix run by former associate Preston Morrison, and Gateway Houston run by Ethan and Elaine Fisher – Elaine is Robert’s daughter) probably change their names and disassociate themselves from Gateway oversight. Same with Table Church (Josh Morris).

One thing to consider is the long-standing relationship between Gateway and Amarillo-based Trinity Fellowship. TF has one DFW campus in Decatur, could they decide to take over the spin-offs as a means of moving into the area?

Another is that Jimmy Evans now works for Fellowship Church. Ed Young is notorious for running what amounts to a church REIT (real estate investment trust); he’s taken over at least three churches (Miami, North Port FL, Norman OK), then closing the campuses and selling off the properties. Could Evans give him hints on which properties would be valuable for this?

Dave A A: I watched yesterday’s service, though I skimmed through the sermon a bit. I know I’m hyper-critical and nitpicked just about everything. Maybe someone more impartial will see some hopeful signs. Unlike last weekend, they didn’t just start right in with a big celebration, but had an elder make the somber announcement. He did also spend quite a bit of effort encouraging the pewsitters about all the great programs Gateway has and good things they’ve done. Then when he prayed he remembered to pray against any unforgiveness, doubt, or bitterness. The pewsitters gave him a standing ovation. A pastor next compared the situation to when Peter was “in trouble” and the church was praying for him. Of course, Peter was in trouble for preaching the gospel, not for being a predator. The guest preacher next compared the unthinkable situation to when he took over from his mentor (who converted to Catholicism).
He encouraged the flock to be like Mary and Martha when Lazarus died, and keep the faith that Jesus would raise them up from this sad season. Another standing ovation.
Then the band performed 3 worship songs, professionally done to send everyone out on a hopeful note.

The church has largely forgotten the biblical practice of lament. Nearly all “worship” songs are happy, happy songs. For Gateway Church, this should be a season of weeping, lament, self-examination, asking God to search the heart, to continue to reveal truth. This is not the time to skip that part and fast-forward to Jesus will make this all better. Lament is a necessary part of the healing process.

He did rightfully acknowledge not just Cindy, but the pain of other victims sitting in the church who have experienced similar things. The church should seek to understand how to care for them. (GRACE could be helpful here.)

And congregants should demand that anyone who signed NDAs be released from them.

“True repentance and restitution include a clear acknowledgment of the sin.”

That is a quote from DOVE, Guidelines for Discipline and Restoration.

I don’t see any sign of any acknowledgement of sin here by Robert Morris. I see him blaming the girl for his abuse of her… making up some Jezebel spirit nonsense, indicating that she seduced him… but no acknoledgement of sin. Am I missing something?

There are more girls. There’s always more.

Leanna Ellis:
Ydoesthiskeephappening,

I wonder if there are other victims and did they sign NDAs. I wonder if someone could check the church files for all those NDAs. I also wonder what ministries are benefiting financially from Gateway Church and if those benefits have caused leaders not to speak out. There have been a lot of speakers at Gateway over the years. I haven’t heard many of them commenting on this. Where is the outrage in the leadership of ministries?

Ava Aaronson: 4 highly important questions everyone should be asking.

Those who don’t ask these questions, why? That by itself is telling.

Ava Aaronson: 4 highly important questions everyone should be asking.

Those who don’t ask these questions, why? That by itself is telling.

Silence in the face of evil is evil itself. I pray all victims will come forward even if they signed an nda. I highly respect all preachers or ministries that speak up against this evil.

Eyewitness: We should not forget boys. There is the horrific Smyth case in UK (young adult males) or Pressler (young adult males) or Camp Kannukuk (young boys) in USA.

Absolutely. Boys are also targets, mainly by men, too. We need to listen to, and be on the lookout for this, too.

Yes, there are women offenders, in much smaller numbers. The clergy offenders are mainly male.

In Jimmy Carter’s TED talk, regarding his human rights work, he said the frequency of male offenders, CSA & DV, in religious culture is due in part to religious beliefs.

Thanks for looking at and sharing Andrew Denney’s research. His work is truly God’s gift to His church.

Sunlight disinfects.

Donna: I highly respect all preachers or ministries that speak up against this evil.

Amy Smith @watchkeep posted a TikTok video on twitter, interviewing 2 women from Gateway Church Frisco. These two women are members and served at Gateway Frisco. They reported a leader for child sex abuse to LE. He was arrested and charged, and is now awaiting trial. The 2 women informed other parents, for the safety of other children. Gateway Frisco church leadership now forbids the 2 women from serving at Gateway Frisco, and has asked that they leave the church.

Reference: see Amy Smith’s TikTok video on Twitter.

Ava Aaronson: Yes, there are women offenders, in much smaller numbers.

You’d better believe it. I could name four right now and the victim of a fifth.

Stats don’t mean squat if you’re one of them.

Headless Unicorn Guy: “Now we can finally Have a CHRISTIAN Nation”.

What they really mean is a Christian dictatorship.

Robert Morris is a charismatic man who the elders knew would go far in their church organization. Hate to say it though most are probably business men trying to build up their church status. Not to say that is true to every member, though why else would they overlook what happened to a young 12 year old girl?

The problem with churches whose identity is based around a celebrity pastor instead of Jesus, is that if/when the celebrity pastor is exposed as a charlatan (or worse), the entire church collapses like a house of cards.

That is because such churches are all about the celebrity pastor, so when he (and it usually is a he) goes down, his sycophantic church that he created in his own image goes down with him.

This happened with Marc Driscoll and Mars Hill, it happened with CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries, and it happened with Ravi Zacharias and his pompously-named “Ravi Zacharias International Ministries.”

Honestly, the best thing Gateway Church can do now is to disband. The separate campuses should each become an independent church which has an identity based on Jesus Christ, rather than an identity based on Robert Morris and what amounts to his family business.

When you have a church like Gateway whose identity is entirely wrapped up in their celebrity pastor, it’s very difficult to move forward from a scandal where that celebrity pastor is exposed and discredited.

I don’t think that it’s wise or spiritually healthy for Gateway to try to “move beyond” this scandal and continue to exist as Gateway Church.

That is because Gateway Church is Robert Morris’ creation.

No matter how many times the Gateway leadership apologize, and no matter how sincere their apologies may be, the fact of the matter is that Gateway Church was founded and led throughout its entire existence up to this point by a pedophile, a rapist, and a sex predator.

As long as Gateway continues to exist, that dark history will be with them.

So if Gateway continues to exist, their options will be to be open and honest about how their church was founded by the pedophile Robert Morris, or they can try to sweep the origin of their church under the carpet and hope that people forget.

With regard to the first option, I doubt many people will want to join a church founded by a pedophile. So the church membership will probably decline, and Gateway will wither.

With regard to the second option, it is even worse. Secrets, lies, and cover-ups are not only immoral, they are what got Gateway into the situation they are currently in, with their church shamed and discredited.

The moral thing to do is to be open and honest about the history of their church, but not many people will want to join a church founded by a sex predator and rapist.

The Gateway name and brand is permanently and irreparably tarnished.

That is why I think the best possible thing to do going forward, is for Gateway Church to disband and stop using the Gateway name.

Of course, just changing the name is not a good solution, because it would still be the same church with a different name.

The separate campuses should become independent churches with new names, and maybe even some of the campuses should split into several smaller churches.

If some of the people from Gateway want to stay together with other Gateway members, they should create new independent churches with no ties to Gateway.

There is no shame in the origins of a church being: “we used to be part of a bigger church until we found out that the founding pastor was a criminal, so we left and created our own new church so our group of friends could stay together in a congregation.”

Make sure that the focus of these news churches is on Jesus Christ and His Gospel and Teachings.

Reject the temptation of celebrity pastors and megachurch status.

That would be my advice to the members of Gateway Church who want to try to salvage what is left of the institution, rather than simply leave and join another church that already exists.

Eyewitness: And congregants should demand that anyone who signed NDAs be released from them.

And the elders should have already done this and announced it, not last weekend but the previous one.

Teresa Coyne: I wish that people would not take their anger with Robert, Debbie, and the elders that knew out on the church. The church at large is not at fault for this happening.

The congregants on the whole are not at fault, but, do the congregants on whole have any power in this particular church beyond the power of their pocketbook. This not appear to be polity where congregants can vote on budget, elders, much less pastor.

Now I will note that that videos posted are likely to be chosen and edited to show what those with power in the church want to show.

Billy Sills: I’d say the gravy train is a pretty big object of worship.

That, and religion really is the opium of the people.

Mark R,

There is a Gateway Church in the Austin area, it is NOT affiliated with them. (They might want to change their name to avoid being dragged down with them.)

Max,

I did not gush.

I did listen to Ethan Fisher’s message from Houston. There have been a few times I have heard Ethan speak at Gateway South Lake. I don’t remember anything diluted and appropriate message were presented, nothing that alarmed me. And I think Elaine is a gifted teacher as well. My heart breaks for Elaine, Ethan and their children…the difficulty of the conversations they have with their children concerning this-hard to imagine. I felt Ethan’s tone was appropriate that Houston would put the congregation first and do whatever is necessary to help the congregation heal. I also realize (and I didn’t know this before) Houston is much more independent of South Lake, at least from the summary Ethan gave.

Mark R:
Chris,

It was at the Saturday service.

Gateway always has the sermon (RM or whoever) live on Saturday at 4PM Central time at the Southlake main campus.All other services (whether at Southlake or a branch campus) feature either a simulcast or a tape delay.The only part of the service which is always live is the music and this is at all campuses.

Mark, thanks for clarifying.

Church girl: I wonder if we will see anyone with integrity take a stand. A pastor who can stay working at such a place knowing the elders knew is agreeing with it without saying it.

In classic supernatural pulp fiction, if you watch black magic going down and make no objection to it (even just to yourself), you have made yourself a part of the magickal working and given it power over you.

Dave A A: And the elders should have already done this and announced it, not last weekend but the previous one.

I don’t think NDAs to cover up criminal activities are valid to begin with.

Can any lawyers or law professors out in the massmind confirm this?

Yea even when Pastor Robert preaches Saturday at 4 pm live in Southlake the Sunday services are on video.
Crazy…
Some of the flock will stay… they don’t care that leadership lied to them.

elastigirl: silly upon silly

And stoopid upon stoopid.

Headless Unicorn Guy: I don’t think NDAs to cover up criminal activities are valid to begin with.

Me neither – If leaders really wanted to be open and discover the truth, which they don’t, they’d have spent the 10 minutes wasted rah-rahing all the good programs asking anyone who’d signed one of those to go to the police, or even to Satin-ick bloggers.

Ava Aaronson: Does church get any worse than this?

Pastor of a rural church was forbidding his teenage son to date a girl. The son argued she was a good Christian in the youth group and there’s no reason we can’t date. Pastor realized he’d have to tell him the truth… “She’s your half-sister”

It was actually Connecticut http://www.cfcscotland.org/services
Visited a couple times years ago, before news of Pastor Sonny’s moral failure.

I have heard some elders have resigned. Do we know which ones?