On Hamilton, Patriarchy, Abuse, Child Porn, Suicide, and Ghislane Maxwell

Veil Nebula Supernova Remnant

I think the first duty of society is justice. Alexander Hamilton


It’s a holiday so I’m going to make it easy for myself by posting some links to articles I found interesting, thought-provoking, or just plain fun.

A wonderful substitute for the canceled fireworks: Hamilton.

It’s the 4th of July weekend and I have been a bit sad. Each year, I record all the fireworks in DC, NYC, and Boston. I buy my annual hot fudge sundae and stay up late watching the show. Obviously, a lot has been canceled. Most towns are not having parades, etc.  However, I found a wonderful replacement and it only cost me $6.95! The Broadway show, Hamilton, is now available on Disney Plus. There are no free trials but think of it this way. I entered the lottery for the privilege to buy Hamiton tickets when it was in town last year. I was not selected and I was willing to pay $80+ for a seat. So, the charge of $6.95 for one month is positively cheap in my book. There is a subscription link on the above review. It will also allow me to watch Mandalorian which has rave reviews and baby Yoda.

Rachel Green Miller tackles the underlying issues of the recent explosion by Geneva Commons.

She wrote GETTING TO THE ROOT on her website: Rachel Greem Miller: A Daughter of the Reformation. I have had the opportunity to get to know Rachel a bit better over the last few months. Rachel is one of those thoughtful and kind members of the Reformed faith. In other words, she is NOT a Calvinista. This post is extremely helpful if you want to better understand some of her thoughts on the recent explosions as outlined at TWW in Aimee Byrd and Rachel Miller Attacked by Real Life Calvinistas: Genevan Commons Current Members…Be Ashamed.

Julie Roys is on a roll and doing an excellent job exposing some dark corners of the faith and Amy Moore provides further insight into what happened with Darrin Patrick.

  1. Today she posted Wheaton College Removes Chaplain for “Inappropriate Comments and Actions of a Racial and Sexual Nature”

In an email today from Wheaton President Philip Ryken to the campus community, Ryken wrote that the college had hired outside professionals to investigate issues with Blackmon. And though the investigation found that Blackmon “did not engage in sexually immoral relationships or physical sexual misconduct,” it “revealed conduct inconsistent with Wheaton’s policies and commitments.”

…Blackmon came to Wheaton in 2015. Before that, he served as senior pastor and head of staff at American Protestant Church of The Hague in the Netherlands, where he was raised. Prior to that, Blackmon served as pastor at River Rock Church in Folsom, California.

Blackmon was ordained in the Christian Reformed Church in North America in 1995.

2.  Julie Roys posted Death of Megachurch Pastor Darrin Patrick Officially Ruled a Suicide which was written by Bob Smietana who is the head of Religion News Service and Alejandra Molina.

Megachurch pastor Darrin Patrick’s cause of death has officially been ruled a suicide, according to the Franklin County Sheriff’s Department.

…He had been a rising star in Reformed evangelical circles and served as vice president of the Acts 29 church planting network. He was later fired from Journey for what church elders called misconduct, including “inappropriate meetings, conversations, and phone calls with two women” and an abuse of power.

…Patrick received counseling and went through a restoration process that lasted 26 months, according to a 2019 blog interview posted at Christianity Today. He returned to the ministry as a preacher but not as a senior pastor of a church.

Amy Moore highlights what actually happened with Patrick’s supposed restoration process.

She pointed to this article in the St Louis Post Dispatch written by Jesse Brogan: St. Louis megachurch founder’s personal journey led to a tragic end. Sadly, he dropped out of the process which was started by his former church in 2017 and took up with the ARC group which, in my opinion, quickly gets fallen pastors back in the pulpit.

“Darrin was involved in a process with us,” Dodd (from his former church leader) said Thursday. “The process was not finished. He did not complete it. We have had very little contact with Darrin since 2017.”

…After the official restoration program stopped, Patrick launched his career again, which bothered some who felt wronged by him or thought he was not healed enough to return to ministry.

In 2018, Patrick was listed in public records as president of Churchouse Community Inc., a church startup in St. Louis that met in homes; two executives from the church didn’t wish to comment.

He also was taken under the wings of Greg Surratt of the ARC which hastily reinstated Dino Rizzo. You can read about that here.

Sadly, in my opinion, Patrick was ill-served by those around him. It is obvious that he was in no way ready for the rigors of the pulpit. In fact, it may have been better if he hadn’t returned to pastoring. But the man could preach and those around him saw $$$$ when it came to megachurches and conglomerates. He was not ready and his death is tragic.

Distinguished Oxford Biblical scholar will go to prison in France for downloading 28,000 pictures of child abuse.

The Guardian posted Oxford professor sentenced to jail in France over child abuse images.

Jan Joosten, 61, who holds the prestigious regius professorship of Hebrew at Oxford, was suspended by the university’s Faculty of Oriental Studies and Christ Church college on Monday night. He is considered one of the most distinguished biblical scholars of his generation.

The academic, who lives in the Bas-Rhin region of France, was sentenced by a court in the city of Saverne last week over possession of about 27,000 images and 1,000 videos after he admitted the facts of the case, Agence France-Presse reported.

The Oxford Blue posted Christ Church professor sentenced to jail over child abuse images. Besides being a well-known professor, he is a former pastor.

Joosten, 61, has held the Regius professorship of Hebrew at Oxford since 2014, and is affiliated with Christ Church.  Agence France-Presse reported that Joosten admitted to downloading the images and videos, including, depictions of child rape over a six-year period, from 2014–May 2020, after being exposed by Strasbourg LION (laboratoire d’investigation opérationnelle du numérique) investigation.

I found an interesting post by The Shiloh Project which deal with rape culture and the Bible: Privilege Beyond Bounds: A Response To The Conviction Of Jan Joosten. I highly recommend that you read the entire piece since the author had met him and originally thought he was a nice guy.

The lashings of respectability, status and privilege that have until recently enveloped Joosten – “pastor”, “Regius Professor of Hebrew” (founded in 1546 by Henry VIII), “Christ Church”, “University of Oxford”, “Princeton Theological Seminary”, “Hebrew University, Jerusalem”, “father of four”, “married”, “one of the most distinguished biblical scholars of his generation” – add force to the shock and outrage that have met the revelations of Joosten’s conviction. Shocking, too, is the sheer volume of images (27,000) and videos (1000) depicting abuse, including rape of children, which Joosten downloaded. The brilliant man falling from his high pedestal: as a German, I think right away of the legend of Faust. Such hubris and such hypocrisy. Did Joosten think a different law applied to him? Did he believe he was too clever ever to get caught?

The author wrote to him and he responded.

I wrote of the revulsion I felt and of wondering how many hands of “respectable men” I had shaken without fathoming what they were capable of, of being repelled at the “secret garden” obfuscating, even romanticising and eroticising the brutal abuse of frightened and utterly vulnerable and helpless children. I wrote that I cannot comprehend why, if he acknowledged the harm he had done, he would not willingly go to prison, “Why should you not go? What will you do now, I wonder?”

(He wrote back) Joosten wrote back very soon after. He said my words hurt but that he deserved them. That he had always known his “doings” were not victimless, that they were “sordid and destructive”. He wrote that he “came across” the images and videos looking for pornography and that they were “freely available and easily accessible”. He describes how this became an addiction from which he could not break free, that he did not want to make excuses but did want to heal, with the help of a psychiatrist. He spoke of the support of his family who accepted him with his defects, characterizing them as an ugly “stain” on a beautiful painting. Ever the linguist, Joosten explained the expression “jardin secret” as “a mental and emotional space one doesn’t wish to share with anyone” but that he had not intended to evoke anything positive but rather that “the world of those images and videos and the real world” in which he lived his life were “completely separate”. He closed by saying he felt deep regret for what he had done, could not undo it and had to look to the future. The closing words were, “I hope one day you will be able to forgive me.”

She closed her excellent article with this.

The forgiveness he says he hopes for from me is not mine to give. Vladimir Jankelevitch writes, “forgiveness is not for swine” and the first step towards forgiveness is full admission of wrong. Today Joosten may appeal. I hope he takes full responsibility and does not.

Ghislaine Maxwell is arrested. Will she stay alive?

For those of you who need to catch up on the back story, watch Filthy Rich on NetFlix.I suspect there are some people not sleeping well tonight. Ghislaine Maxwell, Associate of Jeffrey Epstein, Is Arrested.

The arrest of Ms. Maxwell, Mr. Epstein’s former girlfriend and longtime associate, was the latest twist in a legal saga that has been a source of international intrigue and conspiracy theories. The case has drawn in prominent academics, politicians, business leaders and even British royalty.

…The indictment lists three minor victims who prosecutors say were recruited by Ms. Maxwell from 1994 to 1997, without identifying them by name. Federal laws allow the government to prosecute sex offenses committed against minors at any point in the victim’s lifetime.

…In a memo arguing that Ms. Maxwell should be jailed until trial, prosecutors said she posed an extreme flight risk, partly because of her financial resources. Investigators said they had identified more than 15 bank accounts linked to Ms. Maxwell, whose total balance at times was more than $20 million.

Prosecutors described her total financial picture as “opaque and indeterminate.”

…Lawsuits have long accused Ms. Maxwell of managing a network of recruiters to entice young and often financially strapped girls and women into Mr. Epstein’s scheme, promising he would help them with their education and careers.

After Ms. Maxwell befriended girls and established a rapport with them, she would “normalize sexual abuse” by undressing in front of them or talking about sexual topics, the indictment said.

Well, Happy 4th. Lots to talk about.

Comments

On Hamilton, Patriarchy, Abuse, Child Porn, Suicide, and Ghislane Maxwell — 138 Comments

  1. Regarding Hamilton & Disney+ – I found out that as a new Verizon customer I was entitled to a free year of Disney+. Not sure if this applies to existing customers, but it might be worth checking out.

  2. From the Shiloh Project link, exploring rape culture, religion, and the Bible:

    “I wrote of the revulsion I felt and of wondering how many hands of ‘respectable men’ I had shaken without fathoming what they were capable of, of being repelled at the ‘secret garden’ obfuscating, even romanticizing and eroticizing the brutal abuse of frightened and utterly vulnerable and helpless children.”

    Exactly.

    How many “respectable men” have presented themselves as men of God from the pulpit, while preying on the church for evil obsessions, including money, moral improprieties, and power/control? Not a rhetorical question, BTW.

  3. Dee, check out the SBC’s (former) Caring Well point man Phillip Bethancourt twittering about chaplain Tim Blackmon’s participation at THAT conference:

    https://twitter.com/pbethancourt/status/1072919243941793792

    Dec 12, 2018 “trip to @WheatonCollege tomorrow for an important conference on sexual abuse featuring @BethMooreLPM , @MaxLucado , @TimBlackmon , @KellyMRosati , and more.”

    https://twitter.com/pbethancourt/status/1073395646017748993

    Dec 13, 2018 “Wonderful day at @WheatonCollege , listening and learning more about abuse, plus connecting with @bendockery , @between2worlds , @BethMooreLPM , @TimBlackmon , @KellyMRosati , @BriStenz , @edstetzer , @AshleyUnzicker , @megannlively , and others.”

  4. Christ Church is the most socially prestigious of the colleges at Oxford, traditionally attracting members of the upper class as well as the academically elite. Regius professors originally had royal patronage. So this Jan Joosten occupied one of the highest academic perches in the world.

    Ghislaine Maxwell has several connections to Oxford. She studied at Balliol College, to which her father the publisher and fraudster Robert Maxwell had previously given quite a bit of money. The Maxwells lived in a grand place called Headington Hill Hall.

    Both of these people have been insulated for many years by power. I believe that Ghislaine cultivated a huge “black book” so that powerful people would give her access to whatever she wanted, and would hesitate to speak out against her.

  5. “Rachel is one of those thoughtful and kind members of the Reformed faith. In other words, she is NOT a Calvinista.”

    “Thoughtful and kind” are never used to describe the New Calvinists! Neither are gentle, loving, merciful, considerate, tender, caring, humane, etc.

    On the other hand, I have known classical Calvinists who fit all those descriptors. New Calvinism is a totally different beast than “Old” Calvinism! The NeoCals as a group are arrogant, aggressive and militant, lacking empathy to other expressions of faith and believers who hold contrary views to their aberrations of Christianity. While I don’t agree with the underlying tenets of faith of either “New” or “Old” reformed theology, I respect the old guard for not forcing their religion on others who see things differently. I never met a Presbyterian I didn’t like … on the other hand, I would like to skin the heads of several SBC-YRR know-it-all whippersnappers in my area!

  6. Ava Aaronson: How many “respectable men” have presented themselves as men of God from the pulpit, while preying on the church for evil obsessions, including money, moral improprieties, and power/control?

    It was a lot, in my experience. Especially the more influence in the church they had. Power corrupts, absolutely.

    But the saddest thing to me was that church people are so naive about this phenomenon. They take leaders’ integrity for granted, even after copious evidence of immoral behavior. And they continue to give those men their money and their time and their attention, even though those things are utterly wasted on someone who has no interest in giving in return.

  7. Darrin Patrick’s last public statement was his podcast “The Pastors Collective” with his friend and mentor Pastor Surratt. The episode was “Pastors need friends, too”. “It’s a lonely and confusing place to be a pastor”, said Patrick. Further in, they talk quite a bit about betrayal by friends. My take is that he still felt deeply betrayed by his friends at the Journey who had fired him. Then they talk about losing friends. “Sometimes, your friends die”, he added.
    Pastor Surratt must have had some questions since then as to whether he really helped his friend by putting him back up on the stage. You’d think he’s wondering whether maybe— just maybe— being on stage was a major source of his friend’s problems. But I don’t suppose he’ll ever share anything.
    Today I listened to episode 2, where they went in depth into Patrick’s life. They talked a lot about his own pain and how hard the restoration process had been. I wondered how much money the Journey must have paid him to go (at least part way) through it. They talked about the pain he caused his wife and friends. The victims of his “inappropriate meetings, conversations, and phone calls”, however, were glossed over. The elders said there were 2 women. By the time of this podcast, one woman never existed, and the other had become “an emotional affair”.

  8. Sadly, ARC didn’t turn out to be an Ark to hope and freedom for Darrin Patrick. Propping up celebrity pastors when they fall can be a deadly game. Neither the pulpit nor the pew benefit if such matters are not in God’s hands, on His timetable, and in His way.

  9. Max: New Calvinism is a totally different beast than “Old” Calvinism!

    What kind of Calvinist am I?

    I hold to TULIP minus the L. I am a believer-baptism, non-denominational church staff person, attended DTS, WTS, and GaTech. My dissertation external advisor was Dr. Estep of SWBTS (I took on course there). I was baptised by Dr. Charles Stanley.

  10. I listened to Hamilton while on a long trainer ride. Great voices. Interesting to contemplate that 3 years ago, Hamilton was it! Now mobs want to desecrate his statue.

    This will send a shiver up the spines of many, but I just watched the President’s speech last night at Mt. Rushmore. It was an excellent description of the 4 Presidents depicted there and our history. I recommend watching it even if you hate Trump.

    Who knows what Maxwell will say. Who knows if what she says will be truthful. She’s in such hot water, she’d say anything to curry favor. We’ll see.

    Happy 4th! We live in a great country.

  11. drstevej: What kind of Calvinist am I?

    Sorry to inform you of this Dr. Steve, but you would be an Old guy in my book! While others have made the argument that “New” Calvinism has been around for awhile, IMO the toxic version we are all concerned about started with Piper, Driscoll, Mohler and their respective camps of primarily young rebels … who believe they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the true ‘gospel’ that the rest of us have lost. You seem to be much more civilized than that bunch (but I could be wrong).

  12. Max: Propping up celebrity pastors when they fall can be a deadly game. Neither the pulpit nor the pew benefit

    Instead of helping Patrick be restored to better mental health, Surratt could only think of restoring him to public speaking. He didn’t even give him an inkling he might fulfill God’s calling to live a quiet life and work an honest job with his hands. The job he gave him didn’t even include any interaction with “the pew”. He flew in, gave sermons, and flew back home. And now Surratt, AFAIK, won’t do any second guessing or reflection with the pew or the public. He was a great guy, terrible tragedy and all that, pray for his family…” What’s the flock to think about their leaders, and maybe even about God?

  13. Wow, what a headline:

    “On Hamilton, Patriarchy, Abuse, Child Porn, Suicide, and Ghislane Maxwell”

    But my goodness, how all those news clips fit together so well~!~ Every time I read about Ms Maxwell I learn a little more about that group of uber-wealthy pervs. I was on a grand-jury many years ago in my rural county, ans was a little shocked at how many of the cases we heard were regarding sexual abuse of very young or otherwise helpless people.

    The evidence we had to see was pretty repulsive, too. One guy had made videos of his crimes against his very young small daughter. Another young bully had learned that the little country town had several mentally handicapped young women — girls really — whom were willing to walk into the woods with him, and were nearly incapable of defending themselves.

    Was the hardest jury duty I ever had, more difficult than weeks long murder trials. At least in those trials everyone was an adult

    Thanks for all you do Dee, I know your work is difficult. Everyone, have a nice holiday weekend, stay home, be safe, wear a mask!

  14. drstevej,

    YOu are a 4 Point Calvinist but…the *real* Reformed theologians would claim that a Baptist can’t really be Reformed! You are NOT a Calvinista.

  15. Satin: Instead of helping Patrick be restored to better mental health, Surratt could only think of restoring him to public speaking

    This represents my thoughts on the matter.

  16. dee: You are NOT a Calvinista.

    As one of my DTS profs said, “Go ahead and be a Calvinist, just don’t act like one.”

  17. dee: YOu are a 4 Point Calvinist but…the *real* Reformed theologians would claim that a Baptist can’t really be Reformed! You are NOT a Calvinista.

    According to reformed icon R.C. Sproul, there is no such beast as a 4-point Calvinist.

    “There is confusion about what the doctrine of limited atonement actually teaches. However, I think that if a person really understands the other four points and is thinking at all clearly, he must believe in limited atonement because of what Martin Luther called a resistless logic. Still, there are people who live in a happy inconsistency. I believe it’s possible for a person to believe four points without believing the fifth, although I don’t think it’s possible to do it consistently or logically.” (R.C. Sproul)

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/sproul-on-four-point-calvinism/

  18. drstevej: Satin: Sorry to inform you of this Dr. Steve, but you would be an Old guy in my book!
    I’d prefer “Geezer”

    Oh, come on, now. There are several of us who comment on here who are smart enough (and old enough) to know that “old” is just a state of mind!

  19. Max: I believe it’s possible for a person to believe four points without believing the fifth, although I don’t think it’s possible to do it consistently or logically.” (R.C. Sproul)

    And all this stuff derived from Greek capital letters all run together with no punctuation on crumbling parchments and papyri huh?

  20. Satin: He didn’t even give him an inkling he might fulfill God’s calling to live a quiet life and work an honest job with his hands.

    There may be a problem underlying a lot of the dysfunction reported on TWW. And that is that most, if not all, pastors have no marketable skills and cannot make a (comparable) living outside the pulpit. So if one of them morally crashes and burns, the elders of the church (or whoever is responsible) are left with some hard decisions to make because the guy cannot support his family. The pew peons are probably going to be furious at the guy but also very sympathetic to his wife and children who are innocent. What a mess!

    Another piece, of course, is our entitlement culture where no one is really accountable for their own actions or inaction. There is always something or someone else to blame. But I think that if every pastor were bi-vo like Paul, things might be much different. Now we have multi-generation legacy pastors and Dad insulates the son or son-in-law. It’s a swell gig for the well-connected.

  21. Gram3: There may be a problem underlying a lot of the dysfunction reported on TWW. And that is that most, if not all, pastors have no marketable skills and cannot make a (comparable) living outside the pulpit.

    He who can, does. He who can’t, pastors?

    There are many lovely, hardworking pastors out there, but evangelicalism does seem to recruit a lot of men into the ministry who never should work with people. And from experience listening to them at seminary, most of them don’t even realize that ministry should involve working with people…

  22. Gram3: most, if not all, pastors have no marketable skills and cannot make a (comparable) living outside the pulpit. So if one of them morally crashes and burns, the elders of the church (or whoever is responsible) are left with some hard decisions to make because the guy cannot support his family. The pew peons are probably going to be furious at the guy but also very sympathetic to his wife and children who are innocent. What a mess!

    To the victim/witness they accuse, “You are going to ruin this *wonderful xian leader’s* reputation. How dare you!”

    Reality: the guy created his own reputation & chose the wrong vocation, obviously, and with the backing of his *preacher wife*. As for his kids: there are plenty of kids who make it in this world in far worse circumstances.

    Answer: everyone concerned needs to pivot to get the predator out of the church, or it is no longer a church. It is a hunting ground.

  23. ishy: He who can, does. He who can’t, pastors?

    And, he who can’t, may pastor & prey on others, for his fantasies – economic and what have ya, etc. – with his snake oil “theology”.

  24. Ava Aaronson: Answer: everyone concerned needs to pivot to get the predator out of the church, or it is no longer a church. It is a hunting ground.

    I don’t disagree because they are clearly biblically disqualified. I’m describing why spinelessness like the Cedarville BoT happens. Lets’s consider another example. Why did Bryan Loritts get by the elders at Summit? People do things for a reason or reasons which are rarely stated. Transactions usually benefit both sides in some way. The problem is we have transactional systems instead of churches of the Living Christ. One side of the transaction may be money and the other side may be perceived virtue or righteousness or mercy. I have no idea how to motivate shameless people to do what they should do.

    s

  25. Gram3: most, if not all, pastors have no marketable skills and cannot make a (comparable) living outside the pulpit.

    How intriguing… this has changed in our lifetimes, at least from what I’ve seen. The ministry was not a lucrative career for young men when I was a kid.

    Young men used to go into seminary expecting a modest living—hardship, actually. Now, in a lot of traditions, men (and women) enter seminary as mid-life career changers. Of course, some traditions pay nothing, so those pastors do have to work elsewhere.

    Here’s an idea: if you don’t want your pastor to act like a spoiled young rock star, don’t give him a fortune and a stage.

  26. Gram3: most, if not all, pastors have no marketable skills and cannot make a (comparable) living outside the pulpit

    I have a degree in Industrial Engineering from GaTech. My GaTech fraternity brother (Michael Duke) with the same degree became CEO of WalMart.

  27. drstevej,

    When did you get out of Tech (as GT graduates are paroled, they don’t graduate) and what did you study?

  28. drstevej,

    ISYE Ok. Where you there when the IE complex was built over by the Student Athletic Center?

  29. Ava Aaronson,

    And then there is the problem of the church congregation (or the students at Cedarville) being divided over the correct course of action, incredibly enough. The body is weak, though that does not excuse the leaders from their failure to do their duty.

  30. Gram3: there is the problem of the church congregation (or the students at Cedarville) being divided over the correct course of action, incredibly enough.

    If people are never allowed to make decisions, they won’t know how to address a serious problem.

    Churches should ask people about even the small changes. You’ll learn a lot. Nobody will “win” every decision, but they will feel heard and valued.

    Often there are no right answers. Should we give the choir the summer off? How can we show appreciation to Sunday school teachers? Are the sermons meaningful and helpful to you? How can we do better? If people are used to that kind of discussion, they will struggle less when serious problems arise.

  31. Ella: I believe that surely everyone believes in the “I” part of TULIP, with every breath they take.

    Can you explain what you mean by this because I do not believe it. But I might be misunderstanding you.

  32. Gram3: I have no idea how to motivate shameless people to do what they should do.

    We have this in common.

    However, I also do not know how to motivate shameless people to do the unspeakable, which is what these cult of personality leaders do. There’s a formula out there some place. No idea, though.

  33. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Well, I was not being too serious with TULIP, I suppose, having not studied it deeply, along with its history.

    Currently, I would not totally agree with several petals of it, as stated in a quick online reading. Although some points seem sort of close to something I believe. Marilyn Robinson, whose books I enjoy, mentioned in her book, “The Givenness of Things” that she thinks John Calvin has been misrepresented, or misunderstood. I can’t remember which of those two words she used.

    Inconsistently, I am a current non-attending member of a PCUSA church and I was not asked if I believe in TULIP. Go figure. I appreciate the diversity there, but, inconsistently, maintain ecumenical connections, several fairly conservative. I refuse to buy TGC related books and study those with my religiously conservative, or more liberal, friends.

    What I meant, though, was that breath is irresistible, an object lesson of sorts, that God’s provision of air is irresistible. Only God can see into the human heart of belief/unbelief in Jesus, and I wonder, hopefully, if God measures in terms of small “turnings”. I like the prayer, “Help my unbelief.”

    On the other hand, I believe that aligning with current TGC theologians is very, very resistible. In fact, to use another object lesson of sorts. I believe I would test positive for God given antibodies fighting against the messages of TGC theologians. And these antibodies are not temporary. I can’t go backwards. I could be a little evangelical, too, because convalescent blood plasma, as a help in virus battle, makes sense to me. So every once in a while I can be a care full part of “open” conversations with people in my sphere of influence.

  34. Ella: What I meant, though, was that breath is irresistible, an object lesson of sorts, that God’s provision of air is irresistible. Only God can see into the human heart of belief/unbelief in Jesus, and I wonder, hopefully, if God measures in terms of small “turnings”. I like the prayer, “Help my unbelief.”

    Thank you for clarifying. That makes much more sense.

    As for Calvin, if he were alive today I suspect he would be rejected by New Calvinists for not being a good Calvinist.

  35. drstevej: My GaTech fraternity brother (Michael Duke) with the same degree became CEO of WalMart.

    I’d say your frat brother the exception rather than the rule.
    Gram3 is right on the money with regard to the rule side.
    Those guys, the mega-degreed honchos in the ‘new’ SBC would be hard pressed to find mega-buck positions out in the real world (my opinion).

  36. Friend: How intriguing… this has changed in our lifetimes, at least from what I’ve seen. The ministry was not a lucrative career for young men when I was a kid.

    Same here.
    When I was kid in Southeastern Wisconsin, Lutheran pastors got a parsonage, and enough to keep food on the table and coal in the coal-bin come Winter.
    That was it.

  37. Friend: this has changed in our lifetimes, at least from what I’ve seen. The ministry was not a lucrative career for young men when I was a kid.

    Things are definitely different. Churches are much bigger now in the cities, and salaries are, too. It was considered a “calling” and a sacrifice. Now it is a career with an upward path or even an entrepreneurial venture. Church planter looks a lot like church franchiser/franchisee in some cases. Acts 29 is an example with Mark Driscoll and Matt Chandler. There were several examples in that one organization of pastor failure and leadership failure.

  38. drstevej: I have a degree in Industrial Engineering from GaTech.

    Wow. You are a glutton for academic punishment if you survived GaTech and then went on to DTS and then WTS — at least if our friends are to be believed, and they are trustworthy!

  39. Ava Aaronson: There’s a formula out there some place. No idea, though.

    Gramscite pincer movements. Also, ensuring the replication of the victim mentality meme. I had a front row seat! Worn the T shirt!

    When I left that bunch I saw it unfold in the next bunch I joined.

    Then the bunch after.

  40. ishy: And from experience listening to them at seminary, most of them don’t even realize that ministry should involve working with people…

    Only Getting Rich.

  41. Gram3: Now we have multi-generation legacy pastors and Dad insulates the son or son-in-law. It’s a swell gig for the well-connected.

    As one blog (“Stuff Fundys Like”?) put it in “How to become a Rich Celebrity Megapastor”:
    1) Be born the son of a Rich Celebrity Megapastor. Sure thing if your name ends in “Junior”.
    2) Find a Rich Celebrity Megapastor who has no son (only sons can inherit) and marry his daughter.
    (Like Caiphas marrying into House Annas and their monopoly on the High Priest position.)

  42. Max: primarily young rebels … who believe they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the true ‘gospel’ that the rest of us have lost.

    Like the Hitlerjugend, Young Communist League, Charmian Mao’s Red Guard, the Taliban, and al-Qaeda.

  43. Gram3: Churches are much bigger now in the cities, and salaries are, too.

    That depends on whether the mega model has been embraced, and on the city. My region is blessed with many smaller churches, as well as some big traditional ones (cathedrals and basilicas).

    We also have a weird stretch of highway with a batch of megas. I think Dante was the general contractor.

  44. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Unfortunately, humans, especially younger ones, what to part of the “HOT NEW group/ideology/movement”, especially when it sound It is going to solve all our problems! Heck with the traditional, slow messy way that takes allot of HARD work…

  45. Jerome: says there will be “additions” to the 9Marksist manifesto in the forthcoming 4th edition put out by Crossway

    I’m betting the additions don’t include a complete reversal and a declaration that the mark of a church is love and the Holy Spirit is more than capable of leading Christians? Because until then, I will believe Mark Dever is an enemy of the Bible.

    I wandered over to Amazon to read some of the reviews. Dale wrote a very good one. Another person named Grace recommended TWW.

    I read the book early after it came out, but boy, I thought it was disturbing. Having seen their model in action, it’s even more disturbing. I don’t think there’s anything of God in it.

  46. Muff Potter,

    I live in south eastern Wisconsin. Not sure about Lutheran pastors, but I went to the home of an Assembly of God pastor years ago. It was a nice home supplied by the church, but not anything extravagant. I thought he appeared to make a decent living with the perks of a nice home.

  47. Lily Rose: a decent living with the perks of a nice home.

    When I was growing up, our associate pastor, his wife, and six children had to live in a rather shabby church-owned house on a meager salary. At least it was something, and he knew what he was getting into.

    But here’s the thing: the congregation expected the whole family to glide along and provide a wholesome example. It was like a group fantasy, that the minister’s kids would clap with glee at the thought of wearing carefully patched hand-me-downs.

    Better? Worse? I don’t know. But congregations have a lot of responsibility for the minister’s lifestyle, whether the salary is a million dollars or zip.

  48. Jerome: says there will be “additions” to the 9Marksist manifesto in the forthcoming 4th edition put out by Crossway:

    Any predictions on which loopholes he will be closing?

  49. Ella: What I meant, though, was that breath is irresistible, an object lesson of sorts, that God’s provision of air is irresistible. Only God can see into the human heart of belief/unbelief in Jesus, and I wonder, hopefully, if God measures in terms of small “turnings”. I like the prayer, “Help my unbelief.”

    I think “irresistible” becomes weaponized.

    God is never wrong so if you aren’t suitably impressed to become christian or at least someone’s specific version of it then obviously God has not chosen you to believe, because the “evidence” is overwhelming. How can one not believe? You are therefore drawn to God or you are not one of chosen. Free will not required.

    This can play on a person’s mind when they question the pastor or church. They don’t want to be one the “unbelievers”. Great for keeping the unsure on side.

  50. Jerome: says there will be “additions” to the 9Marksist manifesto in the forthcoming 4th edition put out by Crossway:

    Excellent! Dever and the whole 9Marks crew can retract the ESS teaching they saturated their churches and Weekenders and books with. Greg Gilbert’s little gospel book even had Complementarianism with embedded ESS as part of the Gospel in it. I’m so excited to hear that Mark is going to include that correction! He is going to include that correction, right? Because teaching is the duty of an elder, and if 9Marks has been teaching something false all these years to the churches, then they want to take the opportunity to correct it, right? Right?

    It would be a great example for the loons in Geneva Commons. They will never be appeased because Rachel and Aimee are female, and they have bought the Lie of female subordination but cannot say it plainly. It’s really as simple as that. Women have exposed an error that the men have made, and the men are too proud to admit it. Elders in Christ’s church want to be held to such a low standard yet they want us to respect and honor and trust them. Why?

  51. Jack: or at least someone’s specific version of it

    This seems familiar to me,

    Jack: This can play on a person’s mind when they question the pastor or church. They don’t want to be one the “unbelievers”. Great for keeping the unsure on side.

    and this, if I am understanding you. “Clipping”, in the sport of soccer, is what came to my mind while attending a particular church that went through, what I would say was, a covert takeover to become more “Calvinized” and authoritarian.

    On the other hand, I have known presbyterians(PCUSA) that are not authoritarian.

  52. CORRECTION: Greg Gilbert’s linkage of the Gospel and Complementarianism may not have been in his little Gospel book but in a video panel discussion at T4G (probably.) I can’t locate my book copy to cite.

  53. Ken F (aka Tweed): TGC thinks sites like this are bad, so they posted this today:
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/church-doesnt-need-online-watchmen/

    Religious systems have always tried to silence watchmen/prophets by accusing them of being “divisive vigilantes” wagging tongues that try to tear things down with false reports of the way it really is. Religious leaders have always been threatened with any attempt to disrupt their kingdoms. They are not beyond using distortions of Scripture to shame others into sitting down and shutting up as ministers and ministries drift farther off course. Since watchmen have been silenced in the church, perhaps God has moved them to cyberspace!

    IMO, ‘some’ watchblogs provide a valuable service to the Body of Christ … to inform and warn. Every Christian blog should be approached as one would any other ministry, with prayer and discernment to hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church. You have to sort through the content of everything posted in cyberspace, just as you do this recent missive from TGC.

  54. Max: sitting down and shutting up

    I guess we’re not sitting down and shutting up.
    Furthermore, if I could weigh in here, the church benefits from online watchblogs.
    Quench not the Holy Spirit.

  55. Ava Aaronson: the church benefits from online watchblogs.
    Quench not the Holy Spirit.

    Amen!! Scripture also says not to “grieve” the Holy Spirit. Watchblogs speak often about the grief experienced in Heaven by aberrant ministers and ministries. The organized church would do well to liberate and release the Holy Spirit in our midst rather than quenching and grieving Him. If we did, we might just get back to having Church rather than church. Watchmen play a critical role; they should not be silenced.

  56. Max,

    What I find interesting is that much of this TGC blog posts focuses on rumors and speculations. Hmm, in all my years reading, and posting on TWW, has there been a major “situations” that turned out to be false? I ask in all seriousness. I can not think of one situation where the “individual”, or “group of individuals” was eventually proven to be falsely accused??? IT seems to me this TGC blog is raising a red herring if it is directed at TWW. Now, I am spending much time reading other blogs, maybe there are allot out there that are make false stories…

  57. Jeff Chalmers: IT seems to me this TGC blog is raising a red herring if it is directed at TWW.

    TGC and its band of young-wannabe-in-the-inner-circle messengers are just concerned about the continued truthful exposure of so many of the New Calvinist darlings. They certainly aren’t going to expose their own bad boys! Thus, they try to discourage folks from tuning into watchblogs by tossing in a smoke bomb. Anyone with some common sense can see through it.

    And yes, TWW has a long record of telling it like it really is. TGC can target TWW without naming it by painting all watchblogs with the same brush, but as Balthasar Hubmaier said “Truth is Unkillable.”

  58. Jeff Chalmers: I ask in all seriousness. I can not think of one situation where the “individual”, or “group of individuals” was eventually proven to be falsely accused??? IT seems to me this TGC blog is raising a red herring if it is directed at TWW

    I’m pretty sure they don’t care one bit about honesty, given that they encourage their people to sneak into churches, lie to get into pastorates, and take churches over through force and deception.

    I also don’t consider them “the church”, though, and do not believe many of them are followers of Christ, so that disqualifies them in my mind to say what “the church” should or should not be doing. By the sort of people associated with them that TWW and others have revealed to be criminally dishonest and abusive people, that erodes their credibility even more. They can’t even deal with the dirt in their own house.

  59. Max: Religious leaders have always been threatened with any attempt to disrupt their kingdoms. They are not beyond using distortions of Scripture to shame others into sitting down and shutting up as ministers and ministries drift farther off course.

    Religious leaders, like those at TGC, would not need to fret nearly so much about “watchblogs” if they would hold their fellow leaders accountable rather than circling the wagons and protecting false teachers and abusers of the sheep. I commend the members of ETS who did stand up for orthodoxy in the ETS controversy against the false teachers of ESS. Those false teachers have not retracted their teaching and corrected it, as far as I know. Ironic that they are complaining about people complaining about them. Clean up your own house, men, according to the scriptures.

  60. ishy: This is from a group that wrote an article about how people on the internet should go after anyone they think is a “broken wolf” without qualifying what that actually means…

    TGC almost never gives specifics. They give general warnings about watchbloggers, false teachers, heretics, etc., but almost never name names. If they were genuine they would name names.

  61. Gram3: I commend the members of ETS who did stand up for orthodoxy in the ETS controversy against the false teachers of ESS.

    TGC and others in the New Calvinist camp who still defend ESS obviously view themselves as more knowledgeable of Scripture and more in tune with God than the distinguished group of ETS theologians who questioned ESS doctrine. A grand display of arrogance and defending their brethren (even the false ones) until the bitter end.

  62. ishy: I also don’t consider them “the church”, though, and do not believe many of them are followers of Christ, so that disqualifies them in my mind to say what “the church” should or should not be doing.

    The Church testifies of Jesus … the New Calvinists spend more time talking about reformed icons than they do Christ. Their voice has little resonance in the Kingdom of God.

  63. ishy,

    Also remember, that at least some in this group say you can not take communion unless you are in “good standing” with your local church ( i.e. your local 9 Marks church). Hmm, i seem to forget where Christ said this when he gave the example of the first communion…
    So, they can establish rules for us minion, But it Is not OK when we question of the leaders that can’t keep there zippers zipped, or cover up those that can’t when they are their buddies… I repeat again, has there ever been a significant, “false case”, here on TWW? ?

  64. Jack: This can play on a person’s mind when they question the pastor or church. They don’t want to be one the “unbelievers”. Great for keeping the unsure on side.

    Eternal Hell can be quite a motivator.

  65. Jeffrey Chalmers: I repeat again, has there ever been a significant, “false case”, here on TWW? ?

    I can’t remember any.

    I’m sure false cases are out there, but I figure TWW checks out and vets its cases before posting about them. It’s good Investigative Journalism.

  66. Jeffrey Chalmers: Like the Hitlerjugend, Young Communist League, Charmian Mao’s Red Guard, the Taliban, and al-Qaeda.

    Again, like Hitlerjugend, Young Communist League, Charmian Mao’s Red Guard, the Taliban, al-Qaeda…

    “Look at you now! Remaking the face of Europe!”
    Holocaust (Seventies Miniseries), Part 2: The Road to Babi Yar

  67. Messed up the quotes on the last post:

    Jeffrey Chalmers: Unfortunately, humans, especially younger ones, what to part of the “HOT NEW group/ideology/movement”, especially when it sound It is going to solve all our problems! Heck with the traditional, slow messy way that takes allot of HARD work…

    Again, like Hitlerjugend, Young Communist League, Charmian Mao’s Red Guard, the Taliban, al-Qaeda…

    “Look at you now! Remaking the face of Europe!”
    — Holocaust (Seventies Miniseries), Part 2: The Road to Babi Yar

    “RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
    — Ralph Bakshi, Wizards

  68. Distinguished Oxford Biblical scholar will go to prison in France for downloading 28,000 pictures of child abuse.

    TWENTY-EIGHT THOUSAND PICS?
    WOO.

    That is the biggest picture/image/video download stash I have EVER heard of.

  69. Ghislaine Maxwell is arrested. Will she stay alive?

    Another “Suicide in her cell” just like Epstein.
    With all records conveniently disappeared or “never existed”.

    “Commoners who know the secrets of Royalty seldom live long.”
    — Kurotowa, in Miyazaki’s Nausicaa: Valley of Wind (the original Manga, not the Anime)

  70. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    We will see! No matter what happens with Ms Maxwell, the world will learn more. They have charged her with quite a few serious Federal crimes… The Netflix mini-series made we want to vomit…

  71. Bridget: Because TGC is the only arbitrator of truth?

    That appears to be what they think. They can dish it out but they can’t take it. Search their site for terms like “arian” or “the shack” and you won’t see the kind of restraint they are calling for from the test of us.

  72. Friend: Ms Maxwell

    Such a sickening story. By many accounts her father Robert Maxwell abused her throughout her childhood, and that is indeed sad. Still, plenty of survivors do NOT go on to ensconce themselves among the rich and powerful, and allegedly facilitate the abuse of minors.

    If she had the emotional strength, societal access, and funds to ally with Epstein, she also had the resources to free herself from the damage of abuse.

  73. Maybe the Gospel Coalition author is admonishing the Geneva Commons boys about their misbehavior online toward Aimee and whoever has been harassing Rachel and Aimee elsewhere online. That’s my charitable reading in light of current events. I would really like to be charitable and think the best of TGC. A long time ago, Joe Carter wrote that it was slandering Christ’s Bride to criticize leaders publicly. I hope he has changed his mind.

    I really think that the problem is two-fold. One part is the refusal to hold their own club accountable. The other part is that a core belief among TGC and those who are like-minded is that the pastor has a special authority over the pew peon, so the pew peon may not question the pastor. Subordination rears its ugly head again. It’s another faulty interpretation, this time of Hebrews 13:17 which they take as a special “office” with a special grant of authority over the pew peons. That’s the attitude that comes across over and over again in articles by TGC, 9Marks and T4G. Little Popes, they effectively are.

  74. Gram3: The other part is that a core belief among TGC and those who are like-minded is that the pastor has a special authority over the pew peon, so the pew peon may not question the pastor. Subordination rears its ugly head again. It’s another faulty interpretation, this time of Hebrews 13:17 which they take as a special “office” with a special grant of authority over the pew peons.

    “Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority …” (Heb 13:17) doesn’t include submitting to the illegitimate authority of those who wield the teachings and traditions of men as instruments of manipulation, intimidation and domination over believers (e.g., New Calvinism).

  75. Gram3: Subordination rears its ugly head again.

    Perhaps someone needs to remind the TGC bunch that they are eternally subordinate to Jesus … they sure don’t act like it! They give Christ little authority in their ministries. Heck, they don’t even talk much about Him and it’s clear that the Creator of the Universe has little influence in what they say and do.

  76. Max,

    Hebrews 13:17 is addressing the student’s attitude, not the teacher’s inherent authority, I think. The Gospel Glitterati is only tuned to the Authority frequency so that’s all they can hear or, really, want to hear. Believers in the assembly are equals in Christ, and a teacher/elder/pastor who is teaching something false is liable to correction by another believer who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, unless the teacher is an Apostle sent by the Lord Himself. That’s my take on the totality of the textual evidence, at least. I can’t find a hierarchy.

    Of course, it does not mean that the student is obnoxious about it, but should follow other instructions of scripture, including having a spirit of humility. I would recommend going to the teacher privately, etc., and not making an issue with other people. That harms the body which should be the main concern of all. These guys think they are beyond correction, and that’s a problem. Jesus will return before any of them writes the article “Brothers, You Are Not The Authority Over Christ’s Bride,” at least if he is retracting this interpretation.

  77. Dee,
    You should invite yourself to appear on that guy Caleb Wait’s podcast. For all we know, he is a decent person, as we all know you are. I just feel like there has never been a legitimate debate between you or, people who appreciate you, and the “other side”. It is sad to me that there is very little productive, deep discourse about important topics like this.

    I am in their camp when it comes to doctrine and even church government. It has been sad to watch these last ten years and you really do nail it on your blog.

    In my circles, there have been so many opportunities for leaders to make easy adjustments. Most of it involves the extra baggage that comes from being a part of a denomination or a family of churches. This young crop of pastors either lacks the willingness or the maturity to pivot when necessary and admit that they need wisdom from their congregation. Then they just cannot understand why they have lost so many people in my age group (old). The other problem that they have, is that young people hate hypocrisy above all other sins…. Or at least it appears that way. So they are losing the 50+ crowd, And they are losing the under 30 crowd.

    Keep doing what you are doing…. I just do not see how your blog fits into the gossip category when all the issues you cover could have been handled in the local church.

    One more thing….. as far as the local church not needing watchdogs…. I could make the same argument that local church pastors should not be preaching at other churches to make money on the side. It goes both ways. If we all focused on our own churches we would not need blogs OR rock star pastors.

  78. George: This young crop of pastors either lacks the willingness or the maturity to pivot when necessary and admit that they need wisdom from their congregation.

    The young crop of reformed Southern Baptists have been busy taking over and splitting SBC churches by stealth and deception and running all the wisdom off!

  79. George: If we all focused on our own churches we would not need blogs OR rock star pastors.

    If we all focused on Christ, ‘our’ church would become His Church. There would be no need for cyber “gossip” or celebrities to gossip about.

  80. Gram3: Hebrews 13:17 is addressing the student’s attitude, not the teacher’s inherent authority, I think. The Gospel Glitterati is only tuned to the Authority frequency so that’s all they can hear or, really, want to hear.

    Agreed. I have no trouble submitting to a pastor who provides instruction agreeable to the written Word … but the spiritual hair goes up on the back of my neck with New Calvinists who use illegitimate authority to lord over God’s people with ‘their’ interpretations of Scripture. They make laws of their own (e.g., ESS, complementarianism, church polity, etc.) contrary to the whole of Scripture.

    Gram3: Believers in the assembly are equals in Christ, and a teacher/elder/pastor who is teaching something false is liable to correction by another believer who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit

    IMO, that’s why Mohler et al. erased long-standing Baptist doctrines of soul competency and priesthood of ‘the’ believer when the Baptist Faith & Message was revised in 2000. Whose job is the ministry? Every believer has a part! And, as you note, we are all (both pulpit and pew) subject to correction. The pulpit is not above congregational rebuke … in the ‘real’ Church, that is.

  81. George: I just feel like there has never been a legitimate debate between you or, people who appreciate you, and the “other side”. It is sad to me that there is very little productive, deep discourse about important topics like this.

    They don’t want debate or discourse. They try to eliminate anything that isn’t theirs. All while saying everyone “should just get along” as they’re moving in their furniture and throwing yours out on the sidewalk.

    I tried for years to have intelligent conversations with the New Calvinists I know. With YRR. With professors. They only want one-sided lectures where they are talking and everyone else is silent. Half the time they can’t even converse in their own words, so they just quote others without really even seeming to understand the point they are making.

  82. ishy: They don’t want debate or discourse. They try to eliminate anything that isn’t theirs. All while saying everyone “should just get along” as they’re moving in their furniture and throwing yours out on the sidewalk.

    = the New Calvinist takeover of the SBC, a once-great evangelistic soul-winning denomination. There’s nothing Christian about the modus operandi of the YRR army and its generals.

  83. George: In my circles, there have been so many opportunities for leaders to make easy adjustments. Most of it involves the extra baggage that comes from being a part of a denomination or a family of churches.

    I really appreciate your heart. I’ve been a Baptist for a really long time, since my birth. These folks don’t do adjustments. Read the history of the BFM2000. There wasn’t anything really wrong with the BFM1963 except it wasn’t Al Mohler’s document. Herschel Hobbs at least didn’t teach ESS, unlike this current cohort at SBC seminaries and churches. He was amillennial, IIRC, so he wouldn’t have made the Calvinists too dyspeptic. The problem Mohler and Patterson and others had with it was that it was not explicitly Big C Complementarian, so Mohler had to replace it. And he had to engineer it with carefully planted people. There was nothing “liberal” about the 1963 document. But that was the rallying cry against it.

    Now Baptists in many churches are being required to sign covenants or are being asked if they affirm the BFM2000 when Southern Baptists have not been historically a confessional denomination. Reformed Baptists are confessional, and they have infiltrated the SBC via the Founders movement and influential people like Mark Dever and Tom Ascol and the seminaries are nearly exclusively Calvinistic. If someone has been in a church for a long time and one of these characters is voted in, that someone can expect their church to change in 5-6 years. Then what does that person do with the lifetime they have invested?

    So Baptists with traditional beliefs are being pushed out or are leaving because of authoritarians who will tolerate no dissent at all because of their belief in the authority of the Pastor and his supposed Keys. That is dangerous and toxic and not from Christ. They wonder why baptisms are down, yet no one talks about baptism being denied to children until they are 18 because of 9Marks and its influence and Southern’s influence. “Revival” is an icky, dirty, word because ???? The name “Jesus” is rarely heard, though the abstract term “gospel” is all over the place. You must not question but only listen face forward. There is a lot of self-censorship, as well, because people naturally want to be accepted. This is exceedingly unhealthy for the church body. There should be open study of the Bible with free questioning available to the brothers and sisters.

    I love the term “elders” because it means those who have grown in wisdom and maturity in the Lord and who desire to serve His body. That term has been robbed of its beauty by this current crop who has made it into a term of power rather than love and service. The SBC seminaries and certain places like Acts 29 and 9Marks intern program are popping out Pastor Pup “elders” who have no concept of wisdom because they have had no opportunity to gain it. So, it’s not a matter of polity but a matter of the heart and spirit and a matter, frankly, of them changing the way that scripture is interpreted.

  84. Max,

    “I have no trouble submitting to a pastor who provides instruction agreeable to the written Word … but the spiritual hair goes up on the back of my neck with New Calvinists who use illegitimate authority to lord over God’s people with ‘their’ interpretations of Scripture. ”
    ++++++++++++++++

    but why “submit” at all?

    well, what do you mean by submit?

    even in the best of churches in my church-going career, the closest thing to ‘submit’ i ever did was listen quietly to sermons and try to be on time as was requested, simply out of politeness and sheer practicality.

  85. Max,

    ““Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority …””
    +++++++++++

    to me this is akin to whoever is hosting Thanksgiving Day.

    the guests put the food items we bring where the host tells us to, they assist according to what the host requests and also make suggestions, and everyone comes to the table because the host knows when the food is hot and ready.

    it’s a we-meal, we’re all contributing together so we can all enjoy it together and do something meaningful together. we just need someone giving a very few basic instructions (which we all know anyway) and announcements.

  86. Max,

    “The organized church would do well to liberate and release the Holy Spirit in our midst rather than quenching and grieving Him.”
    +++++++++++++

    there’s simply too much to lose.

    i think the organized church would do well to divest itself of power and money.

  87. Gram3,

    “most, if not all, pastors have no marketable skills and cannot make a (comparable) living outside the pulpit. So if one of them morally crashes and burns, the elders of the church (or whoever is responsible) are left with some hard decisions to make because the guy cannot support his family…

    ..But I think that if every pastor were bi-vo like Paul, things might be much different.”
    +++++++++++++

    “above reproach” and paycheck… they are incompatible, and the latter wins out.

    and what’s with all this pastor “restoration”, to “restore” them so they can then be “restored” — after having been immoral, having shoddy ethics, and doing nigh unto criminal things?

    i mean, it’s just getting silly, isn’t it.

    go hide out for a few months, then come back and let us see you clap 3 times and spin around we’ll pronounce you “restored”.

    restored to what?

    paycheck, yes (& job security for the rest of the staff, too). and forgiveness. but not “above reproach”.

    either above reproach means something or it doesn’t.

    seems to me a person who is above reproach has personal integrity standards (like my atheist, agnostic, muslim, hindu, & buddhist friends and family do), such that it is simply beneath them to do immoral, unethical, abusive, dishonest & corrupt things.

    if you do immoral, unethical things, abusive, dishonest & corrupt things, you are no longer above reproach.

    that ship has sailed.

    you are forgiven. and thankfully you have the other vocation. and we can claim ‘biblical’ without negating it by our actions, without hypocrisy.

    (on leadership, at least)

  88. I just had to chuckle reading yesterday’s TGC article that dismissed watchbloggers as being:

    “like the fake Batmans in Christopher Nolan’s The Dark Knight — copycat caped crusaders wearing hockey pads and DIY cowls”

    No…but look who does that for real:

    https://twitter.com/DrJasonKLee/status/200061320228388866

    https://twitter.com/DrMattQueen/status/200069919411404800

    [Thomas White pals Jason Lee and Jason Duesing (now Cedarvile dean, and trustee) on a seminary boys’ night out]

  89. elastigirl: and what’s with all this pastor “restoration”, to “restore” them so they can then be “restored” — after having been immoral, having shoddy ethics, and doing nigh unto criminal things?

    There are no New Testament examples of an immoral, unethical, criminal pastor being restored to the pulpit! Forgive them if they demonstrate genuine repentance? Certainly! Restore them to ministry? NO! There are plenty of other places for them to serve in the Body of Christ … but keep an eye on them!

    Much of what is done in the Christian Industrial Complex would shock first century Christians! Restoring bad-boy preachers, subordinating Christ, tormenting female believers, lording over congregations, making things easy for the seeker-friendly, church as entertainment, turning pulpits over to inexperienced seminary graduates, celebrity preacher-performers, 6-figure salaries, 31 flavors of theology, mega-mania, turning the holy into profane, etc. etc. would cause the early church to stand in amazement!

  90. elastigirl: ““Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority …””
    +++++++++++

    to me this is akin to whoever is hosting Thanksgiving Day … it’s a we-meal, we’re all contributing together so we can all enjoy it together and do something meaningful together.

    Agreed! Great way to put it! The ‘something meaningful’ should include equipping and releasing the Body of Christ to fulfill the Great Commission. The pulpit mission within the Christian Industrial Complex is certainly not that … it’s all about who can control the pew the best to reach the top of the pyramid, who can serve up the right gimmick to reach celebrity-status, who can provide a marketable and profitable substitute to genuine Christianity to deceive the masses, who can preach another gospel the longest to stay at the top of the heap.

  91. Jerome,

    He must have been the chapel speaker. Seminary students are supposed to go to chapel several times a week (it was 3 at SEBTS). They invite their buddies to speak a lot and the speakers and topics tend to not be very diverse at all.

  92. ishy,

    Following up on that, Liberty during Falwell Srs reign was actually interesting, because Falwell liked to invite people to speak that he didn’t agree with. He invited Clinton, but of course, Clinton turned him down (or asked for too much money, which might be more likely). But sometimes they accepted and came and spoke. Most of them were not known to me, but I was never very much into politics.

    I doubted Junior did the same, but looked it up, and apparently he invited AOC. He also had Jimmy Carter give the 2018 graduation commencement speech.

    That was definitely NOT my experience at SEBTS. There was a disturbing level of sameness in the men that spoke at chapel there.

  93. elastigirl: but why “submit” at all?

    well, what do you mean by submit?

    In my mind, “submit” implies “yield” … yielding to the role of pastor to lead, feed, and protect the Body of Christ. Submitting by listening to pulpit instruction, but not accepting what you hear without searching the Scripture yourself to see if it is truth. A pastor should not be an authoritative overlord, but a loving servant of God – part of the Body, but not its head (Christ is the head!). I’ve only had a couple of real-deal pastors like that in 70+ years as a Christian … the rest have been overlords, bullies, actors, charlatans (to which I showed them my elbows and posterior exiting the church as soon as possible).

  94. Max: They try to eliminate anything that isn’t theirs. All while saying everyone “should just get along”

    Beware of false humility which calls you to unity. The devil is in the details. Young reformers who takeover churches by stealth and deception, ripping the stuff away from those who financed it over years of giving faithfully, are hypocrites when they call congregations to agree to disagree, get along to go along, and make room under the big tent for diverse theologies. They have an agenda which doesn’t really include you.

  95. Max: In my mind, “submit” implies “yield” … yielding to the role of pastor to lead, feed, and protect the Body of Christ.

    Even that kind of submission doesn’t quite work for me. I value and appreciate the skill and devotion of our clergy. They often model humility by deferring to members, listening to us, asking about our ideas and experiences. There’s no “worm theology” in our bunch. Jesus considers us his friends, and we don’t need to be constantly examined and condemned and ordered around.

    Max, I’m not implying that you think it’s good to yield to being ordered around. However, that is the state of the church in so many places.

  96. Just an aside, but I watched the first half of Hamilton last night. I stopped at intermission because it’s pretty long (like Les Miz). I will probably watch the rest this week.

    It’s not quite like anything I’ve ever seen before. The music is excellent. I had some trouble following the words in the songs just because they move so fast. Hamilton was definitely an interesting choice for a main character from that time in history. I particularly like Lafayette (the actor won a Tony for that role, so understandable). And Jonathan Groff kills it as King George!

    A favorite music artist of mine did his own rendition of Hamilton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNEdEDbhTQw

  97. ishy,

    BTW, the character of King George definitely reminds me of some of the SBC pastors I’ve known, but now they skinny jeans and covenants instead of crowns and armies.

    “And when push comes to shove
    I will send a fully armed battalion to remind you of my love!”

  98. Friend: I’m not implying that you think it’s good to yield to being ordered around.

    Nah, I comment here daily to the contrary.

  99. Friend: I value and appreciate the skill and devotion of our clergy. They often model humility by deferring to members, listening to us, asking about our ideas and experiences.

    Sound more like genuine pastors than this New Calvinist bunch! I bet they even love you! (something the New Calvinists have not been accused of)

  100. ishy: “And when push comes to shove
    I will send a fully armed battalion to remind you of my love!”

    Oh, my, what memories this brought back, from when my young adult children, son-in-law and I saw Hamilton a few years ago. The understudy was “on” for King George and he did an amazing job! The lines you pointed out were his best! All were excellent, it was so, so good! (I had watched the documentary of making it and listened to the album, which my kids surprised me with a few days before we saw the performance. This helped tremendously in following the words in the songs.

  101. Ella: (I had watched the documentary of making it and listened to the album, which my kids surprised me with a few days before we saw the performance. This helped tremendously in following the words in the songs.

    That would help a lot. I’ve been singing my whole life, so I know those songs must be really difficult to sing because they are so fast. And King George’s song is not as fast, but demands a very high level of pronunciation to be funny.

    The Disney+ recording has some things on the live version, one being the close ups on Groff’s face. I won’t spoil it; I’ll just say that it really highlights Groff’s dedication to the role.

  102. Max: I bet they even love you!

    That’s so complicated. Love is part of their calling, but it has to be genuine love, not a checklist item. (And I’m not a big fan of churches that love-bomb people.) Over time, as the church in general has lost clout, I believe that our members value one another more, and there is a soft, fond form of love in the place.

    Today I’m missing the building and the people. Given the viral outbreak in our region, though, I am grateful that we have not resumed services in person. Our church continues to act voluntarily, and to take a more cautious approach than the government has imposed or recommended.

  103. ishy,

    Can you turn on subtitles? They can distract, but they can also help. We use them all the time, rather than turn the TV up loud enough to cover ambient noise.

  104. Friend,

    I actually did for awhile, but they were kinda piled on top of each other and in the way of the action. I don’t have a large TV, so I ended up turning them off. I’m used to watching subtitles because I watch a lot of international dramas, but I didn’t like how Disney+ styled them.

  105. ishy: The Disney+ recording has some things on the live version, one being the close ups on Groff’s face. I won’t spoil it; I’ll just say that it really highlights Groff’s dedication to the role.

    It would be fabulous to see, close up, the dedication of whoever had King George’s lines. I didn’t have that advantage, but I sure heard the understudy’s dedication. He must have been having so. much. fun. We all had so much fun talking about his character later.

  106. I’ll add that I think the SBC leadership would benefit from a study of the George Washington part/role in “Hamilton”. I don’t want to spoil things either, but my view on this is formed, in part, from having seen the documentary’s commentary on this role.

  107. Ella: It would be fabulous to see, close up, the dedication of whoever had King George’s lines.

    There appears to be some “unauthorized” versions floating around Youtube right now. I found one with a quick search…

  108. ishy: There appears to be some “unauthorized” versions floating around Youtube right now. I found one with a quick search…

    Ah…I don’t know why, but I truly had not thought to check for those before. I saw the documentary on PBS, antenna TV… Our small group, when we saw the live performance, all delightfully agreed that we thought the understudy was hamming it up a bit. The rest of the cast had trouble containing themselves. Thanks for the tip!

  109. Jerome,

    “… (also known as Hercule) is a fictional character, manga and anime.

    “He is portrayed as a great fighter, champion of the world, cheered by all humanity. In reality he hides a clumsy and cowardly personality. Usually this duality is used for comedic gags.”

    wikipedia

  110. Ava Aaronson: Note: stay out of the “black books”.

    I can’t help it if someone puts my name in their black book without my permission. That was my point, if it wasn’t clear. (Personally, I do not have a black book.)

  111. And I see Cedarville threw a superhero dress-up event, with Thomas White as the Caped Crusader and wife Joy as the “Black Widow”:

    https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/cedarville-university-superhero-night-brought-out-characters-batman/130xhxct0ndz15k2g54jyuo2v

    Oh brother, and the TGC writer said it was watchbloggers? who were

    “like the fake Batmans in Christopher Nolan’s The Dark Knight — copycat caped crusaders wearing hockey pads and DIY cowls”

  112. Jerome: Oh brother, and the TGC writer said it was watchbloggers? who were

    “like the fake Batmans in Christopher Nolan’s The Dark Knight — copycat caped crusaders wearing hockey pads and DIY cowls”

    Better than being Lex Luthor…

  113. Jerome: Thomas White as the Caped Crusader and wife Joy as the “Black Widow

    I see that was in 2014. The little ones were dressed as Power Rangers. All of this rather surprises me, but I suppose it passed as Christian because it happened in February instead of a day commonly known as Halloween.

  114. Jerome: I’m not sure what ‘Mister Satan’ means?
    Is it referring to the anime character (a world martial arts champ)?

    That’s what occurred to me when I first read it. No idea what the tweeter had in mind, though.

  115. I was attending a rather large ARC church in my town and when I questioned the pastor on social media about the wisdom in having Dino Rizzo speak from the pulpit in the church, (He had posted about it on said social media site And I commented ) I was quickly “Unfriended” by the pastor. I figured I didn’t need to attend a church where the pastor is apparently part of the ARC good ol boy club and promptly quit attending.