SBC/ERLC/Caring Well: Tiffany Thigpen, Anne Marie Miller and Dee Ann Miller Aren’t Speaking at the Conference. Why in the World Not?


Depressed and frustrated link

“…in addition to feeling sick and tired and feverish and nauseated, I also felt forgotten. And there was no easy cure for that.” ― Sarah Thebarge


 

Tiffany Thigpen: Darrell Gilyard tried to rape me and the SBC pastors, two still around, tried to shut me up.

Back then she was Tiffany Croft. I wrote about her years ago when I first started blogging. It is her testimony that led to Darrell Gilyard being convicted of molestation of teens in his church. Here is a link to her blog at the time let’s stop pastor darrell gilyard together

When I met an abusive Pastor, Darrell Gilyard, I was a 17 year old girl who was actively involved in my youth group and completely trusting of Pastors and leaders.

…I grew up attending First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida under Homer Lyndsay and later Jerry Vines. Jerry Vines “found” Darrell Gilyard in the 80’s while he was an attending member in our singles dept. Apparently he saw preaching qualitites in him and called his friend Paige Patterson and recommended him for a scholarship for seminary.

…. He would tell the story of “doing his homework at the service station” for light. All of this turned out to be a lie. I was a middle schooler and heard Darrell share his story from the pulpit and we sights on me – unlucky me. We trusted and respected Darrell because our Pastor and Paige both bragged on him and revered him, loved him like their son, Jerry Falwell as well. We blindly trusted because there were no warnings, no safety parameters. We all knew how Vines loved him. Our church was a mega church back then, boasting some 16,000 members and our Pastors were revered, we trusted whom they trusted.

…Patterson placed him in Pastor positions at local churches, the accusations and reports followed. Darrell came onto women, assaulted them and even raped. All were reported to Patterson. We all know the story, Patterson, in his own words “broke them down” and shamed them, and he stood behind Gilyard. There are many reports of this available. We know this part and how that went during the 80’s

…in 1990, my Pastor and Gilyards mentor, Vines, decided it was an appropriate choice to have Darrell Gilyard travel with our youth choir and orchestra

…one fateful night, Darrell knew something I didn’t and he saw what would maybe be his last opportunity and he took it. Someone close to me had confronted Darrell, his Pastor, about the ways in which he talked about me to him, about his frequent interaction into my life, phone calls and such.

…without anyone with me, I met the Pastor and he immediately got very inappropriate and his hands were everywhere, all the sirens sounded at once – he told me that he knew I wanted him and that is why I was there. Of course I protested and said this isn’t funny, you asked me here to warn me about something…I will spare the details, I do not want to even relive them though it plays like an unwanted movie in my head. I tried to get away from him and he was determined, he tried repeatedly to rape me and I fought with all that I had.

I managed to wrestle him and actually shoved him to the ground as he lost footing and got the door open just in time for him to hold the door and try to come in, I fought and fought again and somehow managed to squeeze the door shut on his arm forcing him to let go as I moved the car into reverse

Tiffany did not remain quiet and would eventually report this to police years later. She was a teen with a supportive mother. However, Jerry Vines had something to say. He told her to keep quiet since there was *nothing he could do about this.*

I was summoned back to Dr. Vines, he told me that he had flown to Dallas and he and Patterson were given some materials and that Darrell was indeed a “bad apple” and that when they confronted him, that he was evil, that he looked at them and said “I don’t care if Gabriel the archangel came down from heaven and told me to leave the pulpit, I won’t do it.” Dr. Vines told me that their hands were tied and there wasn’t much they could do. I didn’t know any better and was just a teenager so I thanked him for trying. We agreed that I wouldn’t talk about it and that no one at the church “needed to know” and that was that.

Long before #me too* and #caring well,  Tiffany went to war with no help from the current SBC leadership, some of whom were (and some still are) good buddies with her former pastors.

I contacted local reporters and said I have a story to tell and I want my face and name put on this so that the girls have a voice (since they were minors). I interviewed with every local station and gave my email address for contact and quickly created a blog called “Let’s Stop Pastor Darrell Gilyard Together” and pleaded for other victims to come forward so that in numbers we could see him prosecuted.

Mac Brunson took over for Vines at FBC Jacksonville and continued the attack on Tiffany.

Mac Brunson became the new Pastor of my home church, FBC Jacksonville, when Dr. Vines retired. Brunson was a buddy of both Patterson and Vines. He also was once the Pastor of FBC Dallas and was Chancellor of Criswell College at one time. He apparently didn’t like me blogging about the predator Pastor who was at a neighboring church just a few blocks away or about how Jerry Vines had not reported it when it happened in 1991. He was asked in an interview, “What do you believe the next SBC president needs to focus on for the next two years?” “Saving his hide!” said Brunson, and then he brought up the Gilyard case all on his own.

He was quoted as saying,“…You know, here’s a Pastor right down the street here, all over the headlines, who is being arraigned today in this city…and of course there are people that have tried to blame Dr. Patterson for that …they tried to blame Dr. Vines…I can assure you they didn’t cover up anything, they’d have enjoyed exposing it too much…” In another he said “this lady is giving this pastor down the street a hard time, blogging about him” as he was doing a seminary taping which was heard on the radio and many people told me about it.

She began to receive threats and disgusting emails from *nice* SBC folks.

Many people from the church wrote scathing emails to me. I received nasty emails from Gilyards camp as well, threatening emails, emails wishing harm to me and my family, condemning me to hell, calling me horrible things, I even received emails claiming I seduced Darrell or “wanted it” or “asked for it”.

Dr Vines refused to help her.

I asked, practically begged, Dr. Vines to do what was right – to call out Darrell’s sin and help me push for accountability and also help for the victims, he would not. I asked him to write something and acknowledge that he wishes he could go back and do things differently and not even have to admit wrong or apologize to me (I let him off easy, hoping for good) and that if he would write something like that I could publish it on the blog. He would not.

Then, her private information was subpoenaed from Google and Comcast by FBC Jacksonville’s despicable Mac Brunson. My good friend, Tom Rich, had his info was subpoenaed the same time. (Tom won and Brunson lost, big time.)

my blog and email addresses, screen names and telephone and social security and address and registration, IP Address, log in data, posting etc etc etc. attached to my blog, were subpoenaed by the State of Florida, through our local law enforcement and granted by the State Atty’s office at the request of…duh duh duh…First Baptist Church of Jacksonville Florida, Mac Brunsons church, Jerry Vines former church, my former church where I reported my abuser.

And this was all subpoenaed through Google and Comcast. And because “no criminal activity was found” (of course) they were able to look, peruse, get what they wanted without my knowledge and then claim they didn’t find anything and destroyed the original file which showed the basis on which the subpoena was granted. What could they possibly claim I did to warrant this? I would never know. My blog, New BBC Open Forum blog (Memphis blogger) and FBCJaxWatchdog blog were included in these subpoenas. What did they claim we did? Each was blogging about abusive Pastors and hurts of the people of the churches they were blogging about – BBC was about Bellevue Baptist in Memphis, FBC Jax Watchdog about Mac Brunson and FBC Jax.

Jerry Vines reportedly lies about Thigpen and Gilyard in his memoir.

Jerry Vines writes his Memoirs which is published and promoted by Lifeway – I refused to even buy the book, but I begin to be notified by others that there is a chapter in the book about Gilyard and it is not truth. Vines writes the version as if Gilyard was just a single guy flirting with another single (referencing what happened to me) and he actually states it that way and follows up with “perhaps I was wrong”. I was sucker punched, I felt the world spin again and I was outraged. I’ve spent years telling the story and pushing for the predators punishment, he and Patterson try to silence me, Patterson was horrible to me, division in my family, in my church family, being attacked and threatened verbally, years spent gathering evidence and victims, sharing the truth and evidence and yet his final blow is this.

Assessment:

Tiffany didn’t do it nicely, something that appears to be a requirement for inclusion in the SBC Caring Well conference. Not only did she report her molester but also reported those who covered it up. Jerry Vines and Mac Brunson are still designated *untouchable* by the SBC powers that be. How awkward for the leadership…

Tiffany has critiqued Jerry Vines’ memoir-a major no no for those acceptable SBC leaders. Maybe the boys just want him to ride off into the sunset with his lying pride intact? Same with Brunson, maybe? Nice women don’t embarrass Baptist leaders like this, do they? If only she had stuck to Paige Patterson, she might have now been part of the in crowd.

Tiffany started a blog. (You know how those gospel™ boys feel about those.) She found many other victims and urged them to report. That was back in the good old days when women who were molested were supposed to know their place, submit to authority and never, ever bring out yucky stuff in public. Tiffany was a really strong woman, even as a teenager, and stood up for truth, even when it cost her.

I believe the ERLC/SBC wants to let Tiffany slip away into the background and not embarrass them by mentioning old wounds that are so awkward. Vines and Brunson are still running around in SBC circles. She was, and is, naming names of those who are still present. I think the ERLC wants to avoid such discomfort and keep things nice. Besides, Armani Floyd already has too much to do these days.

One thing to remember, Paige Patterson was fired over a quote from a CBMW conference in 2000 (CBMW-be ashamed!!) Surely the SBC leaders could condemn Vines and Brunson if they wanted to do so. I believe that they do not.

SBC: Apolgize to Tiffany


Anne Marie Miller: Telling the truth about anxiety and church attendance gets her the boot from the SBC.

Here is a link to her website/blog.

Anne Marie Miller was a well known speaker. She was invited to speak at the largest United Methodist Church in the world, but she was not invited to speak at Caring Well.

TWW posted Anne’s story: Did the Southern Baptist Convention’s International Mission Board Decide Not to Report Sexual Assault They Knew About for Years?

As a high school student, Anne was molested by Mark Aderholt, an SBC seminary student at the time. He later went on to be a missionary along with his wife. Eventually he was recalled, admitted to the IMB that he had had a sexual relationship with Anne. He was allowed to resign from the IMB. But, the SBC gave him a new job as an assistant pastor in Bill Clinton’w old SBC church in Arkansas. He then transferred over to a South Carolina SBC association. Then Anne came forward. He was eventually arrested and tried , convicted and received  a decidedly light sentence.

This was awkward because the IMB urged her to let it go. David Platt was then head of the IMB until he wasn’t.

Anne believes she is being rejected by the SBC for the following reasons.

By allowing me to share my story on their stage, they’d be admitting that what happened to me was a crime that they failed to appropriately respond to for many, many years. I imagine that would open them up to potential liability as well as the fear of financial loss. There have already been people who have withdrawn financial support to the cooperative program because of my story and the chronic failure to acknowledge it or act on it.

However, I believe it is her statements regarding her anxiety about attending any SBC church which is what the SBC leadership do not want people to hear. They want nice women who were hurt and are still doing just fine, thank you very much, due to the incredible support of the current leadership.

To further align with a survivor that has been so hurt by the SBC that I have extreme anxiety going to any church, and even moreso an SBC church (see: “a cold day in hell” on NPR) would undoubtedly stoke the fires of the faithful core. When the media was hot on my story and they were under fire, it appeared as if a genuine concern was the SBC’s leaders’ top priority. Emails with tons of encouragement flowed freely into my inbox.

It appears that her honesty was going to cost her. Lifeway Backs Out of Book Deal With Anne Marie Miller.
Remember, Lifeway is owned by the SBC.

it’s hard not to see the situation as yet another case of a Christian organization protecting itself at the expense of an individual. In the case of Miller’s book, it could be at the expense of several individuals who have suffered abuse within the church.

“It does feel like the same song on repeat where well-established values aren’t reconsidered in light of how the church—and the SBC [Southern Baptist Convention]—is moving to understand sexual abuse and trauma,” Miller told ChurchLeaders.

However, during the editing process, LifeWay told Miller they could not publish the book due to its suggestion that supporters of survivors should not always encourage a trauma victim to return to church, as doing so may be retraumatizing to the survivor. Miller knows this traumatizing feeling all too well. Even driving by some churches causes her anxiety to swell.

Her book, Healing Together, which was picked up by Zondervan was originally supposed to be given along with the Caring Well. material.  But then Lifeway learned:

Lifeway learned I was
a) not active in a local church and
b) due to an abundance of research, I couldn’t recommend all survivors need to go to a church for healing

Then there is the awkward nature of her naming her abuser and helping him get convicted. How many people who are acceptable survivors did what Anne (and Tiffany) did? Yep-Mark Aderholt, bonafide SBC missionary and local SBC organization leaders pled guilty due to Anne’s efforts. How unpleasant.

Anne is no longer SBC and she was not *cared well by those *Caring Well* leaders.

My story is a perfect example of a failure to care well, so much that I can only assume that they are fearful to admit such would cause them reputation and financial loss. In actuality, letting me have a few minutes to encourage people to care well, as a survivor and as someone in the medical field who can offer professional insight, would only help those willing to listen to better care for those of us who may never walk into a church building again.

  • Anne named her SBC abuser and got him convicted after the IMB wanted her to let it go.
  • Anne believes that some victims have trouble going back to an SBC church and understands why some victims do as well. The Caring Well folks appear to want nice victims who have no problem with attuning church in the SBC.
  • The SBC made sure her book deal was revoked for actually telling the truth of the pain that many victims experience.

SBC: Apologize to Anne Marie Miller


Dee Ann Miller: Exposing abuse on the mission fields before most of the people on the stage were born.

Dee Ann Miller was a long time missionary and outspoken advocate on dealing with sex abuse in the SBC. Like Christa, she’s been around for decades and is now 72 years old. She (as well as Ann) was featured by the Houston Chronicle.

Like others, she has also written a book. How Little We Knew: Collusion and Confusion with Sexual Misconduct 

Here is a review of the book on Amazon. Dee Ann was a prophet long before today’s #churchtoo #SBCtoo movement.


There are some things currently ongoing in her story that are so interesting, I want to devote a post to it as it shakes on out.

SBC Apologize to Dee Ann Miller


It is my hope that the survivors on the stage will shout out to their sisters in these stories. It is my hope that the SBC stop looking for stories that resolve *nicely.* Instead, may the SBC leaders look in the mirror and take responsibility for allowing this stuff to continue and stop presenting stories that make them feel comfortable.

It’s time to name the abusers and name those who covered it up. It’s time to apologize for those who struggle with their faith. Not everything resolves in a rose garden with lots of hugs and kisses.

Today Jules Woodson spoke to a seminary class at Baylor University. She was also featured today  in New York Magazine as well.

Yet, she like those others are not considered prophetic voices, most likely because they threaten a narrative.

SBC: Apologize to Jules Woodson

SBC: Apologize to Christa Brown.

Also, there needs to be some apologies on the part of others at the conference but I’ll leave that up to them to figure out which ones I mean.

…These women must not be forgotten as leaders attempt to put a nice spin on the pain of SBC sex abuse and coverup. They want everything to appear fine. Everyone who was abused believes, everyone goes to church without discomfort, everyone trusts pastors and everyone who walks away wasn’t really a believer anyway. And besides, it wasn’t (insert current pastors’/leaders names) fault even though, deep down inside, many of them know it was.

 


Comments

SBC/ERLC/Caring Well: Tiffany Thigpen, Anne Marie Miller and Dee Ann Miller Aren’t Speaking at the Conference. Why in the World Not? — 79 Comments

  1. Y’all, this is completely off-topic. I’m sorry. But the incomparable Jessye Norman died today, and I am distraught and I’m shock.

    May her memory be eternal. May the angels welcome her to Paradise. May the martyrs greet her on her way. May she sing with the heavenly choirs tonight.

    And if you want to get goosebumps on your goosebumps, Google her performance of Gounod’s *Sanctus.* It will pop right up.

    Lord have mercy.

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  2. mot: I do not believe the SBC leaders will ever apologize to these women

    It took the SBC 150 years to “repent” of its racial beginnings – SBC founders were slaveholders. And even then it wasn’t a display of sackcloth and ashes, but in the form of a resolution approved at the SBC annual conference in 1995. It takes a while for SBC leaders to say “We were wrong” about something … and with a current emphasis on the “beauty of complementarity”, SBC wimmenfolk are in for a new round of oppression.

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  3. Max: It took the SBC 150 years to “repent” of its racial beginnings – SBC founders were slaveholders.And even then it wasn’t a display of sackcloth and ashes, but in the form of a resolution approved at the SBC annual conference in 1995.It takes a while for SBC leaders to say “We were wrong” about something … and with a current emphasis on the “beauty of complementarity”, SBC wimmenfolk are in for a new round of oppression.

    This.
    The SBC is good at a lot of talk, a LOT of it, but very little action outside of evangelization. These days, “everything else” is affecting that, too.
    Not even tongue in cheek, but I can’t imagine the SBC moving with any REAL motivation at any type of speed beyond glacial. I pray for a miracle, though.

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  4. Magistos: The SBC is good at a lot of talk, a LOT of it, but very little action outside of evangelization.

    The SBC forfeited its denominational gifting in evangelism years ago – too much wrangling over this and that with little focus on reaching the nations for Christ! What is going on now with the New Calvinist movement in SBC can best be described as proselytization to reformed theology not evangelism to save souls … indoctrination not conversion.

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  5. Reading Tiffany’s story I continue to be amazed at the evil — not the assault, although that would be bad enough, but the enabling. What kind of seared conscience does one have to have to know that a colleague is capable of rape, and do nothing? No, it is worse than that, because these people actively work to conceal the truth. It is nothing but seared conscience and total depravity. As Zechariah said, woe to the worthless shepherd who deserts the flock.

    Beware any church with a vision beyond spreading the gospel and nurturing the flock. And beware any church that values preaching ability above a person’s character.

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  6. New PR team hired for the Southern Baptist Convention — Jonathan Howe and Amy Whitfield:

    http://www.bpnews.net/53548/howe-named-ec-vp-of-communications

    “Jonathan P. Howe has been named vice president of communications for the Southern Baptist Convention’s Executive Committee effective Sept. 5…will oversee all SBC Executive Committee communications including SBC.net, SBC LIFE, Baptist Press, social media initiatives and other media and messaging strategies”

    “Howe most recently served as director of strategic initiatives with LifeWay Christian Resources…he was responsible for the content strategy and marketing of ThomRainer.com, EdStetzer.com…He is also co-host of “SBC This Week,” a weekly podcast [with] Amy Whitfield…Howe also hosted and produced weekly podcast episodes of ‘Rainer on Leadership'”

    http://www.bpnews.net/53674/amy-whitfield-named-ecs-associate-communications-vp

    Amy Whitfield has been named as associate vice president for convention communications of the Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee…Whitfield, who will begin her work with the Executive Committee on Oct. 16…is the co-host of the ‘SBC This Week’ podcast, which she and Jonathan Howe, now the EC’s vice president for communications, began in 2015, having recorded 235 episodes.”

    “Howe noted, ‘There is no one better to help us tell the Southern Baptist story than Amy Whitfield…I’m thrilled to have her as part of the communications team, I am also excited for her to represent the SBC Executive Committee to other women'”

    “Ed Stetzer, executive director of Wheaton College’s Billy Graham Center for Evangelism and former executive director of LifeWay Research, told BP, ‘I’m thrilled that Amy is going to represent Southern Baptists'”

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  7. An example of Howe and Whitfield in action: a podcast of theirs on Mark Aderholt in which International Mission Board is barely mentioned:

    skip to 04:45 to hear Howe’s intro quickly stating that Aderholt was a ‘former IMB missionary’; for the duration of the discussion there is no further reference made to the IMB, by Howe or by Amy Whitfield:

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/sbcthisweek/episodes/Episode223.mp3

    How could one sidestep IMB’s role in this?

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  8. Mark Aderholt was an IMB missionary before and after he assaulted Anne Marie Miller! He’d already spent a couple of years abroad as an IMB journeyman missionary before returning to Texas for seminary. I’ve yet to see that addressed by anyone affiliated with the SBC.

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  9. Jerome,

    They aren’t denying it…they just aren’t bringing it up…

    Spin, baby, spin.

    Also, I was amused / rolling my eyes at this line: “… I am also excited for her to represent the SBC Executive Committee to other women’”. Because we want to be sure that no one thinks she can represent to the MEN with authority.

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  10. Jerome: New PR team hired for the Southern Baptist Convention … SBC Executive Committee communications

    Ronnie Floyd, new President/CEO, SBC Executive Committee has been there long enough to realize that he is going to need help addressing (spinning) all the bad press Southern Baptists have been generating.

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  11. Jerome: “… I am also excited for her to represent the SBC Executive Committee to other women …”

    That one line speaks volumes. In any other venture, a new executive would be representing everyone, just not her own gender. At this juncture, SBC needed a token woman to make it appear that they are doing the right thing. She will find out that her authority and power in that capacity is very limited … the ole boys will keep her on a tight leash, lest it appear that a woman has been assigned a leadership role.

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  12. Magistos,

    It is weird. The quote Matthew 18 and the other verses for resolving conflict and reconciliation.

    But, they use an outside PR firm when it comes time for them to do the same.

    Correcting myself in regards to Boz T. in regards to my comment in the last post concerning the conference, they are including him. But it’s hard to understand why the SBC asked him to speak. One of the member churches are being sued by him. In the Yahoo Sports article, Boz said he really had think hard sbout it before agreeing to speak.

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  13. John: Dee, just curious, and not looking to pick a fight… is there any thing wrong with the survivors they chose? Are they not adequate? Or would you just like to see a more robust presentation?

    Dee can answer for herself. But this ties it with what I’ve experienced of churches. They don’t want to deal with anything messy, especially when the messes were created by their own.

    Churches want perfection, not real life with all its mess and pain. They are fake, offering fake perceptions of church life.

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  14. Bridget: They don’t want to deal with anything messy, especially when the messes were created by their own.

    I have to believe that SBC’s Conservative Resurgence leaders knew that Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler were bad boys but turned a blind eye because they were important to the CR movement.

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  15. Max,

    In my reading of the time period of the Second Great Awakening, it actually spawned off the antislavery movement and the women’s suffrage movement. They were debating the same Bible verses that are being debated between the complementarians and the egalitarians today. The comps of that period were having women speak in both public and mixed company about anything biblical or antislavery. Or writing anything about what is called egalitarianism today. From my reading, the women’s suffrage movement dropped it’s biblical talking points after the Civil War in the U.S. The men, who said they would support women’s suffrage once slavery was abolished, dropped their support after the Civil War.

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  16. Jerome,

    He also went on many trips with Emmanuel Baptist after he left that IMB. And don’t forget the references on his resume. His most recent trip was about a month before he was arrested. I have it From a solid source that his former colleagues and church members paid his expenses as well as living expenses while unemployed and for his Disney World vacation after he got out of jail.

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  17. Max: I have to believe that SBC’s Conservative Resurgence leaders knew that Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler were bad boys but turned a blind eye because they were important to the CR movement.

    Party First, Comrades.

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  18. Magistos: The SBC is good at a lot of talk, a LOT of it, but very little action outside of evangelization.

    Fundagelicals in general are good at a lot of talk but little physical/practical action.
    (Not Spiritual Enough? Hence my standard snark about the phrase “I’ll Pray For You”.)

    As for “Evangelization”, that’s Spiritual (Saving Souls, NOT people). As Mark Twain put it in his medievalist parody Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court, tunnel vision on this can really go sour:

    “So what if I rack him ’til he die? For I shall have Saved his Soul.”
    — “The Inquisitor”

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  19. Brian: Brian,

    Sorry, brain pain, left out part of a phrase:

    “…period were having a fit over women speaking in both…”

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    And the SBC continues to try and silence women and it is now 2019. It is unbelievable to me.

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  20. John:
    Dee, just curious, and not looking to pick a fight… is there any thing wrong with the survivors they chose? Are they not adequate? Or would you just like to see a more robust presentation?

    I think my posts on the matter are clear. They have chosen some survivors that are not risky for the leadership. They don’t want names named or current SBC leaders embarrassed. They also want people who would never have trouble going to church after having been molested.

    There s nothing wrong with the survivors. They just don’t represent those who challenge the current powers that be. They don’t want anybody to get up and say they have trouble going back to church. One of the survivors who is talking even stated that she thought it was rather awful that some people move away from the church because she didn’t. Now, she wasn’t molested in the church.

    The selection of the survivors needs to be broader, much broader. However, that may not happen because people who walk away from the SBC or church in general challenges the doctrinal Reformed paradigm.

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  21. Robert M,

    “What kind of seared conscience does one have to have to know that a colleague is capable of rape, and do nothing? No, it is worse than that, because these people actively work to conceal the truth.”
    ++++++++++++++

    don’t know exactly what a seared conscience is, but people like Jerry Vines, Mac Brunson, and Paige Patterson put doctrine over everything — over common sense, kindness, love,… over human lives. over God, even.

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  22. John,

    “Dee, just curious, and not looking to pick a fight… is there any thing wrong with the survivors they chose? Are they not adequate? Or would you just like to see a more robust presentation?”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    i think you’re asking the wrong question.

    if these women, whose lives were ravaged at the hands of the leaders’ colleagues and friends were allowed to speak, the SBC leaders would naturally have to stop pretending that are invisible. They would have to stop pretending they don’t exist. They would have to actually apologize, take responsibility, and actively right the wrongs done against these women.

    but for these self-righteous SBC leaders, liars & hypocrites-on-legs, it would simply cost them too much in power, revenue, personal significance, and comfort and convenience.

    I imagine this is the heart of the matter.

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  23. It’s both unique and miraculous that TGC published Russell Moore’s article about social media bringing out trolls. Moore really took a stand by hiring a hundred newsboys to hawk the publication on street corners. Oh, wait…

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  24. Max,

    Oh, I know Max, but I appreciate the warning, my friend. That’s why I want to see what they have to say.

    I do want to give that author props for being somewhat self aware, but I think the thread could be very revealing – not necessarily in ways they expect.

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  25. Brian: Is Baylor still the flagship Baptist college?

    Oh no! Baylor is now a sunken ship from an SBC perspective. It has been out of the SBC loop for years, since it surrendered to the “liberals” during the Conservative Resurgence. It is now considered a private Christian university, not an SBC school. Most, if not all, of SBC-affiliated colleges and seminaries have fallen to the New Calvinist movement, with SBTS being the mother-ship.

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  26. Magistos: I think the thread could be very revealing

    SBC Voices will put a positive spin on the narrative, knowing that J.D. Greear and Russell Moore will be looking in on them. They have a loyal following of Mohlerite commenters who will speak no evil, but others may be given an opportunity to vent (if not blocked).

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  27. Lea: Well that sounds about right. Same stuff different day.

    The suffragist movement is not entirely clean here. The USA in 1870 could not manage a calm discussion about voting rights. Debate about the proposed Fifteenth Amendment caused ugly splits over who was most deserving of the vote. Black men received the franchise under that amendment, to the great consternation of some white women. The later movement behind the Nineteenth Amendment often portrayed the deserving potential female voter as college educated, at a time when most colleges were segregated, and few women went. Male and female opponents of women’s rights pointed out that black women would be voting along with those upright school teachers. The process that yielded universal suffrage was sausage making, truly cringe worthy.

    That’s off topic, but the theme of relative worthiness is much the same. Men in the Holy Echo Chamber automatically accept men who look like them. They pick and choose others to include. This post brilliantly puts all of the included and excluded on an even plane.

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  28. Friend: The suffragist movement is not entirely clean here.

    I’m not really commenting on the movement as a whole, I’m more speaking to the ‘we’ll support you after we take care of this more important thing first’ claims that vanish when it comes time to actually commit.

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  29. Max,

    I’m with Magistos on this one. Even if they go the party line at some point, they made a bold but even tempered statement about the whole situation.

    When I’ve always read something that references “not all has been done”, I’ve always asked myself “what is it” and “why”.

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  30. Max,

    So which of the Baptist conferences do the Baylor Seminary students flow into?

    This have been an odd question to ask, since most people attended church, maybe read the Bible and that’s it. It’s all the behind the scenes stuff that hinders or helps the body of Christ and impacts the world around us.

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  31. Brian: they made a bold but even tempered statement about the whole situation

    Agreed. I’m hoping (but not optimistic) that the conference will spawn real change in SBC life. Perhaps this gathering won’t be like the SBC annual conferences, where issues are brought forward on the convention floor, resolutions are adopted, and then everyone goes home to do business as usual. For example in 2013, the SBC messengers adopted a resolution “On Sexual Abuse of Children.” That resolution stated:

    “We encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse”

    Although not named, the drafters of that resolution had Al Mohler and his affiliation with C.J. Mahaney in mind. Mohler went back to Louisville after the conference and continued his association with Mahaney – C.J. and his church become SBC members soon after!

    If nothing else, perhaps the pew in 45,000+ SBC churches will learn that there was a “Caring Well” conference this week and will care well enough to no longer blindly trust the pulpit. The pew should always keep one eye open when the pulpit is around … it’s too easy for bad-boys to become church leaders.

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  32. Brian: So which of the Baptist conferences do the Baylor Seminary students flow into?

    I lost track of Baylor when it fell off the SBC radar. I suspect they might attend CBF conferences, since Baylor is now affiliated with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (CBF), which formed after SBC’s Conservative Resurgence routed the liberals/moderates from SBC life in the 1980s-1990s. That whole CR thing was ugly – Christians doing other Christians that way … IMO, God stopped blessing the SBC at that point.

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  33. Max: SBC Voices will put a positive spin on the narrative, knowing that J.D. Greear and Russell Moore will be looking in on them.They have a loyal following of Mohlerite commenters who will speak no evil, but others may be given an opportunity to vent (if not blocked).

    There is a reason some call SBC Voices the Pravda. You must give the party line or be banned.

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  34. Max: While this particular article may be unbiased, keep in mind that SBC Voices is primarily a New Calvinist site.The conference is primarily led by New Calvinists; thus, there may be a more favorable slant in the comment thread about how great the conference is.

    No dissension will be allowed. It is called SBC Voices but many of the comments are made by the same small group of commenters and they are on the same page of comments.

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  35. The inerrancy of scripture, was that always a plank in the Southern Baptist Convention?

    When listening to “Thru the Bible” with J. Vernon McGee, he mentioned going to a seminary that was amillenial when he himself was a dispensationalist.

    How have seminaries handled this in the past? Did they take in students of diverging views. Or were they like what the SBC system is now, sticking only to one denominations theology?

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  36. Brian: The inerrancy of scripture, was that always a plank in the Southern Baptist Convention?

    Short answer: Yes, at least for the last 94 years.

    The 1925, 1963 and 2000 versions of the Baptist Faith and Message all contain the phrase “without any mixture of error” in the sections referring to belief about the Bible.

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  37. Max: Baylor is now affiliated with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (CBF), which formed after SBC’s Conservative Resurgence routed the liberals/moderates from SBC life in the 1980s-1990s.

    Baylor University is actually affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas, the more moderate of the two SBC Conventions in Texas. If a CBF church is affiliated with a state convention, it will be the BGCT. All colleges and universities that are affiliated with SBC conventions are at the state, not national, level.

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  38. Brian:
    The inerrancy of scripture, was that always a plank in the Southern Baptist Convention?

    When listening to “Thru the Bible” with J. Vernon McGee, he mentioned going to a seminary that was amillenial when he himself was a dispensationalist.

    How have seminaries handled this in the past? Did they take in students of diverging views. Or were they like what the SBC system is now, sticking only to one denominations theology?

    I am no expert, but there are many definitions of innerancy.

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  39. Brian: When listening to “Thru the Bible” with J. Vernon McGee, he mentioned going to a seminary that was amillenial when he himself was a dispensationalist.

    Occasionally, my church (RCC) uses “How Firm a Foundation” as a “Processional”/entrance hymn.
    I can’t hear it without expecting J Vernon McGee’s voice to come in around the second stanza.

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  40. mot: It is called SBC Voices but many of the comments are made by the same small group of commenters and they are on the same page of comments.

    Yes, while they may be voices within SBC, they certainly don’t represent the millions of Southern Baptists who are still non-Calvinist, unfortunately a silent majority of voices as the New Calvinists continue to change their belief and practice.

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  41. Max: Yes, while they may be voices within SBC, they certainly don’t represent the millions of Southern Baptists who are still non-Calvinist, unfortunately a silent majority of voices as the New Calvinists continue to change their belief and practice.

    I am joking, Max-let’s not tell them at Voices that they are not speaking for the millions of SBC members. They really believe they do. It might burst their bubble.

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  42. mot: let’s not tell them at Voices that they are not speaking for the millions of SBC members

    OK … that would be like telling the New Calvinists that they don’t speak for the majority of Christians (90+% of believers worldwide have rejected the tenets of reformed theology for the last 500 years).

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  43. elastigirl: don’t know exactly what a seared conscience is, but people like Jerry Vines, Mac Brunson, and Paige Patterson put doctrine over everything — over common sense, kindness, love,… over human lives. over God, even.

    Well, Jesus did say people would know His disciples by their doctrine. No, wait….

    On one of his albums the now-disgraced Mike Warnke talked about Christians who sing hymns like

    My faith is based
    On nothing less
    Than Scofield’s Notes
    And Moody Press.

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  44. Would it be safe to say the conservative resurgence (CR) within the SBC has turned out to be a form of theological McCarthyism?

    Baylor wouldn’t sign the SBC’s document on inerrancy, not because they were against it, but because they didn’t want to get roped in the CR/Neocals version of it? Get roped into the us verses them paradigm? (Just my hypothesis.)

    This is more of a clarification. Before the CR, Calvinist and non- Calvinist alike got along in the SBC, even those who didn’t believe in the inerrancy of scripture?

    The SBC, instead of asking Boz T. to run point and create a Caring Well conference, they create their own and then reach out to Rachel D. and Boz T. to speak at it, creating another “do you agree in the inerrancy of the Bible” moment?

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  45. Remember that time Southern Baptists Albert Mohler and fellow future TGCer David Dockery were suggesting INERRANCY was a RED FLAG TERM best avoided and WASN’T the most important thing about scripture?

    http://media.sbhla.org.s3.amazonaws.com/7009,17-Aug-1990.PDF

    “During sessions on ‘Four Views of the Bible among Southern Baptists,’ seven scholars spoke at the Louisville, Ky., school about the nature of biblical authority and interpretation. They also proposed ways for Southern Baptists to find common ground”

    “During the conference, Dockery said…Southern Baptists must understand the Bible is truthful, authoritative and is both a divine and human book”

    “‘A lot of us get quite hung up on terms like inerrant and infallible,’ he said. ‘I think it is very possible to move the discussion forward and still talk about the nature of Scripture without using those particular red flag terms’…Another speaker, R. Albert Mohler Jr., editor of the Christian Index, newsjournal for Georgia Baptists, said Southern Baptists need to try to build a theological consensus….Mohler described inerrancy as ‘an important issue’ but it ‘isn’t the most important word about Scripture’.”

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  46. Max,

    Max: The Conservative Resurgence was really a Calvinist Resurgence in disguis

    Max: What really fires me up is IMO the FUNDAMENTALIST took over the SBC and destroyed lives-wasted valuable assets-reduced the number of missionaries. etc. And then like Steve Urkel they will not own they did these things.

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  47. Max: At this juncture, SBC needed a token woman to make it appear that they are doing the right thing. She will find out that her authority and power in that capacity is very limited … the ole boys will keep her on a tight leash, lest it appear that a woman has been assigned a leadership role.

    Amy Whitfield was picked out to appear alongside JD Greear and Russell Moore before the press in February. Watch and see how she nailed the audition:

    https://twitter.com/i/videos/1097686186263539717

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  48. Jerome,

    “Amy Whitfield was picked out to appear alongside JD Greear and Russell Moore before the press in February. Watch and see how she nailed the audition”
    +++++++++++++++

    i watched that.

    Colorforms… it just popped into my head as i was watching. girls who grew up in the 70s might remember.

    cardboard figures that you can prop up with other little cardboard pieces with notches in them which you put at right angles to the figures to stand them up. there’s a whole wardrobe of vinyl outfits and accessories you can stick on to dress her up.

    i had Barbie colorforms and raggedy ann colorforms. it was really fun. i dressed them up, propped them, and there they stood looking great, watching me while i did the work of a 7-year old.

    JD Greear and Russell Moore were playing with their colorforms girl. They dressed her up, propped her up, she looked great. and there she stood (or sat) watching them do their work.
    ——

    christian women have a learned passivity about them. i am the voice of experience, having lived my whole life in christian culture. (til a few years ago)

    just recently i was with a group of friends (pastor, his wife, some staff, other friends) from a previous church i attended. we went out for a meal, then to a high school football game. it was all very fun.

    i marveled at what happened during transition times.

    –if we didn’t leave the restaurant soon we’d be late for game.

    –game was over, we were hanging around, chatting…. and chatting…. just how long are we going to stand here chatting? til the 5:00am sprinklers turn on?

    no woman said a darned thing. as if it wasn’t their place. as if it was their job to wait until a man was ready to provide the guidance. (assuming their awareness ever kicked in)

    each time i spoke up (since no one else was). simply announced “Let’s go.”

    the looks on all their faces… like they all got bit by mosquitos at the same moment.
    ———

    amy whitfield, don’t play by their silly rules. you are so much more.

    christian women, rise up to your full status as human being.

    interject and speak. speak first, why not. in the absence of guidance, interject and give it. not as a suggestion, not with apology, without any self-deprecation. make the announcement.

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  49. elastigirl: don’t know exactly what a seared conscience is, but people like Jerry Vines, Mac Brunson, and Paige Patterson put doctrine over everything — over common sense, kindness, love,… over human lives. over God, even.

    Just like the Communists with their “Ideology over everything”.

    As for “Seared Conscience”, I’ve always assumed St Paul was describing psychopaths/sociopaths before today’s terms existed.

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