SBC Executive Committee Member Rod D. Martin Goes on the Attack on Twitter, Defending the Founders, Causing Concern Amongst Abuse Survivors.

Rose Shaped Galaxy

If you watch most of the stuff on TV and in movies, it’s usually put-down humor. It’s like somebody being mean or cynical or thoughtless to another person. I never wanted to be that type of comedian. Paul Rust


Today was an eye opening and also deeply upsetting time for me on Twitter. However, I learned something. We have a real problem in the SBC Executive Committee and I’m going to prove it to you.

Let’s go back to two posts to: Observations of SBC#19 and a Condemnation of The Founders Who Disrespected Victims of Sex Abuse at the Rally

In that post I explained how the Founders had done a *gotcha interview* with Ashley Easter and Kyle Howard. They did not properly identify themselves in an understandable way. Most people do not know who The Founders are. I will be getting our blog up to speed on them in the coming weeks because I believe they are going to try to prove their point that there are *liberals and heathen!!!* masquerading as true blue Christians in the SBC.

I believe that you are going to see more and more articles condemning SBC pastors and leaders who might take a softer view of the role of women in the SBC. Here is one written by Jared Longshore, the documentary interviewer: Will The SBC Do The Wade Burleson?

I am suspicious that *friendly* groups are behind this piece of nonsense. Beth Moore’s Beliefs on Homosexuality Are Called into Question in Open Letter from Bible Teachers

So what did Moore do this time? Well, she is friendly with those who support homosexuality….well at least two people.

The letter continues, focusing heavily on Moore’s seemingly close relationships with two progressive Christian authors, Jen Hatmaker and Jonathan Merritt, who have openly shown support for the LGBTQ community. Merritt has even expressed that he had “at least one homosexual encounter about a decade ago.”

The letter notes that Hatmaker and Merritt are “known for their belief that practicing homosexuals can be Christians” and questions if – since Moore is adored by them both – she too subscribes to the same ideology.

The letter, however, does not make a definitive assumption and instead asks Moore to answer this series of questions regarding homosexuality:

You know, a long time ago, I  had a friend who did stuff like this. I was quizzed on who I voted for. I got her check mark of approval. Then, horrors upon horror, she discovered that I was still friends with those who voted otherwise. I was no longer worthy of her friendship because I was not a purist. I guess friendships are OUT if the person is gay or affirms gays according to these whiz bang Bible teachers.

Go on over to Debbie Lynn’s blog which posted *The Letter.* Be sure to scroll down and read the links. However, read her mission statement.

MISSION STATEMENT

In obedience to 1 Timothy 2:11 and Titus 2:3-5, I intend this blog for women only. I desire to help women grow in their understanding of God’s Word so that they can turn from doctrinal error and distractions that weaken so many professing Christians. Persecution is coming. I pray that Christ will prepare women to stand faithfully for Him as we face opposition.

No, they are not Founders but they are definitely eligible for membership.

The Rally and the Founders

So, getting back to the post on the Rally and the Founders let me reiterate my concerns ing a clear fashion.

Ashley Easter and Kyle Howard were approached by some people they did not know in the midst of multiple interviews. These guys mention they were *founder*, like anyone outside of their small circle know who they are. They stuck a mic at them while Tom Ascol, big, brave, manly President stood nearby with Tom Nettles, wearing a lapel mic.

So, did they show deep concern for sex abuse survivors? Nope. They were interested in things like *women preachers* and dates at which gender is assigned. This was a Rally for changes dealing with sex abuse.

Did the Founders’ interviewers get booted from the SBC Convention hall?

Is it true? (Paul followed up with more tweets.)

So, did they decide to mosey on over and have some fun with the Rally participants? They sure as heck avoided me?

Tom Ascol jumped into his hidey hole.

Needless to say, I asked some questions on twitter. This brought out Tom Ascol’s kids to defended. Ascol, who could have nipped this in the bu with a simple apology for not being clear, jumped into his hidden hole and got friends to begin the attack. I’m shocked that Tom hid since he is all for *real masculinity* which I assume he wishes to role model except he didn’t.

Then, Rod D. Martin of the SBC Executive Committee appears and it all goes downhill.

It appears to me that the SBC Executive Committee should have approved of this sort of exchange with victims of abuse which makes me really, really worried for what is going to be happening in the year ahead. Did they? Do they? I’m not holding my breath.

Martin has a mean streak. He was obviously on the offensive, defending The Founders while Ascol went into hiding. This was a deeply disturbing series of tweets which raises questions about how much the SBC Executive Committee really cares about victims.

I will be listing some of his tweets but would urge you to go to his Twitter feed to read all of them. A number of us responded to him but he was difficult. If I were a victim, I would consider steering clear of him, especially if one has experienced abuse at the hands of any SBC pastor.

The SBC changed their constitution only because they were exposed for their lengthy and despicable history of sex abuse and coverup. No Houston Chronicle; no change. The SBC is now viewed as a the new RCC by most of the world and is also seeing a drop in membership.

This caused a number of jokes behind the scenes. His entire tirade was an example of not *believing the best about fellow believers. However, he may not view many of us as believers so he can insult us.

He constantly claimed that this was a protest, not a rally. Now why would that be?

Do you see what he does here? He attempted to place The Founders little documentary/interview as a real interview ala media. It is not. There appears to be an agenda. One doesn’t *reach out* to sex abuse survivors by asking about LGBTQ issues or gender assignments etc. Thoughtful individuals don’t handle things like this. The Founders are out to prove that the SBC is under attack by *liberals.* Rod D. Martin appears to be a *protector* of Tom Ascol.

This is just plain mean.

Notice who Martin names as a person who would not be questioned by those in the Rally. He is again trying to link the Rally to leftist politics. This should help you to understand what the agenda is. The Rally is bad, full of liberals and unbiblical people.

Just plain mean.

Continues to be mean and sarcastic.

Arrogant.

See, he believes in gotcha journalism as opposed to thoughtful interchange. It really is cool to hide who you are, isn’t it? Just like Jesus.

He said this to one person who made the mistake of telling him he/she is a lawyer.

He refuses to say what the interview is about. He is covering for Tom Ascol who appears to be afraid of answering question.

WWJD

And now, the libel card. Yeah, right. This is an old timey Baptist preacher tactic in order to scare the uninitiated into stopping a discussion of an inconvenient truth. Thankfully, my good friend, Jeff Anderson, prepared me well for this nonsense.

Good job, John. Sorry. But none of us are impressed. The SBC’s behavior makes them look suspiciously like a bunch of con men, waiting to get caught. They got caught.

At this point, I was frankly in a state of shock. I could not believe that an SBC Executive Committee member would behave this way to see abuse victims and their advocates. It appears that my suspicions are correct. Sex abuse is not the real agenda. It’s smoking out the liberals, however they define that to be.

Brent Hobbs shows there are some decent people who get it within the SBC.

Here is a link to his Twitter account. I am grateful for his comments.


Where are we at?

  • The SBC Executive Committee appears to be supporting The Founders and are willing to go after anyone who questions them.
  • The Founders played this wrong. They were disrespectful of sex abuse victims and their advocates.
  • I believe that there will be an increasing attack on those who do not subscribe to the gospel™ views of The Founders.
  • I plan to do some posts on this group so I can warn people what to expect will be coming out from this crowd.
  • Are there going to be theology wars n the SBC? Yes.
  • Will the role of women wars eclipse the sex abuse issue? Yes.
  • I believe that media should investigate the history of this group.
  • Why did Tom Ascol hide behind his kids and Rod D Martin? Is he not a *real* man as defined by his organization?
  • The Founders should have carefully approached their chosen *victims.* One does not practice stealth *interviews* with fellow believers. Or…is that the only way they can get people to speak with them?
  • I was frankly startled by the response of Rod D Martin. is he an example of the new and improved SBC leadership? I am thankful that some people who have encountered him in his past positions have contacted me so I can al least understand that he’s *always been like this.* Now I wonder what the rest of the Committee is like. The leader is called *Armani Floyd* which frankly worries me a bit.

Comments

SBC Executive Committee Member Rod D. Martin Goes on the Attack on Twitter, Defending the Founders, Causing Concern Amongst Abuse Survivors. — 288 Comments

  1. Re:
    “I guess friendships are OUT if the person is gay or affirms gays according to these whiz bang Bible teachers.”

    I think you guys did a post having something to do with that a few months back.

    That is, the Bible teaches that Jesus associated with the big sinners of his day – the tax collectors and prostitutes – but people at Desiring God, or Gospel Coalition, or whatever such site, said that today’s Christians should not do likewise.

    They were very opposed to the idea of Christians hanging out with anyone who was not of their approved variety of the faith or who wasn’t of the faith at all.

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  2. The way that the local-autonomy-plus-corporate-cooperation polity works IRL, the reputation of parts sticks to the whole, and vice versa.

    Some positive steps forward, statements, and commitments were made by multiple SBC entities before and during the #SBC19 annual meeting. One main slogan repeated through various documents I read noted the intent to make local churches and SBC institutional entities “safe for survivors and safe from abuse.” In my opinion, those are pluses for the SBC’s overall reputation–though monitoring of follow-through will always be warranted.

    SAFE FOR SURVIVORS AND SAFE FROM ABUSE.

    Given the behaviors of men of the Founders Ministries and of at least Mr. Martin from the SBC Executive Committee, they all have some explaining to do about how their activities and communications as representatives of their non-profit corporation’s movement in the SBC and/or of the Executive Committee fulfill the SBC’s “safe for survivors and safe from abuse” commitments.

    Or, does a forthcoming Credentials Committee need to consider ways to remove movements, church/ministry networks (like Founders Alliance Churches), and individuals from access to the Cooperative Program and any/all of its various functions–not just local churches–due to apparent disinterest in the SBC in part or in whole dismantling sexual abuse, harassment, and assault from its midst?

    I had already started a Twitter thread as a SBC Systemic Abuse Safety Scorecard. In it, I ask this question: “How can SBC entity show it’s truly ‘safe for survivors & safe from abuse’ as advertised?

    Document it repairs PAST cases, supports PRESENT recovery, prevents FUTURE abuse.

    https://twitter.com/futuristguy/status/1142089852592087040

    I will be adding more items to that thread as I process additional documentation.

    Along with Dee and others who commented on Twitter, I, too, find today’s developments disturbing. I don’t see how these prominent SBC men are helping to confront or heal damages done by sexual abuse in SBC churches and entities. Instead, they seem to be deepening the divides and amplifying the SBC’s reputation as being unsafe. If this goes unchallenged by other leaders in SBC life, that will be the answer to the question I and others have asked about whether the SBC will *ever* become what they promoted themselves as caring well about in the last few weeks.

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  3. It’s smoking out the liberals, however they define that to be.

    i.e. “BURN THE WITCHES! THEY’RE HIDING UNDER EVERY BED! THEY PLOT TO STEAL YOUR MALE ORGANS! BURN THE WITCHES!!!!!”

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  4. SBC Executive Committee Member Rod D. Martin Goes on the Attack on Twitter, Defending the Founders…

    Do the antics and words of these MenaGAWD remind anyone else of the Party Commissars from HBO’s Chernobyl, Episode 1: “1:23:45”?

    “I wonder — how many of you know the name of this place? We all call it “Chernobyl” of course, but what is its proper name?”

    “The Vladimir I. Lenin Nuclear Power Station.”

    “Exactly. Vladimir Ilyitch Lenin. And how proud he would be of you tonight — especially you, young man… and the passion you have for The People. For is that not the sole purpose of the apparatus of the State? From the Central Committee all the way down to each of us in this room — we represent the perfect expression of the collective will of the Soviet Proletariat.

    “True, when The People see police, they will be scared. But it is my experience that when The People ask questions that are not in their own best interest, they should simply be told to keep their minds on their labour — and to leave matters of the State to the State.

    “We seal off the city. No one leaves. And cut the phone lines. Contain the spread of misinformation. That is how you keep The People from undermining the fruits of their own labour. That is how your names become inscribed in the hallways of the Kremlin.

    “Yes, Comrades. We will all be rewarded for what we do here tonight. This is our moment to shine.”

    (standing ovation)

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  5. I read the discussion on Twitter today and kept thinking this group must be raping a lot of kids with the dumb attacks on survivor advocates.

    The Founders obviously hate anyone who has the nerve to say they were raped. This group is enemies of rape victims.

    As for as I can tell anyone still in the Southern Baptist Convention is an enemy of raped children.

    The Southern Baptist Convention has made it perfectly clear they do not believe child rape should be prison worthy for them or their child raping friends. I have known it my whole life but it is still so stunning how shameless and arrogant they are about it.

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  6. I read the rapid-fire twitter conversations today as they were happening. the responses from Rod D. Martin and defenders of Tom Ascol and Jared Longshore were breathtaking.

    they either have personality disorders that make them incapable of compassion/empathy and feeling what others feel,

    they never grew up emotionally to the developing stage of compassion and awareness of the feelings of others,

    or they’ve been brainwashed to see the world in black and white extremes, shutting of compassion and sensitivity

    whatever the case, they have a serious lack of awareness.

    reading the twitter conversation was sort of like a surreal science fiction thing… they look human, they sound human, but what they’re saying…. there’s something wrong with them… i don’t think they’re human.

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  7. I said recently the Beth Moore could die the death of a thousand paper cuts. I don’t care how many followers she has or media revenue. No man, or woman is an island. Tanicity, teamwork, superior numbers are formidable to face.

    ..”the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.”..

    I said the game is played for all the marbles. I meant this as well. This faith contains a struggle for control of the Kingdom of God. The ones who control the Kingdom, will order it as they choose.

    In some ways, it’s hard to criticize The Founders. They take what they do seriously. They want to prevail and work accordingly.
    I’ve never had that tenacity.

    Controlling the message of Evangelicalism, will decide who controls the United States. There can be no Kingdom on Earth without addressing earthly rivals.

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  8. They’re sociopaths. They’re acting like my sister (abusive mother). She taunts me with being a godly man. I quote verses to highlight her behavior. So, she calls me Satan.

    Abusers like to belittle and demean people. Bully them into submission. This is what they are doing.

    I would suggest that the press start researching the police records regarding these SBC leaders. There has to be police calls concerning domestic abuse, at least called in by the neighbors.

    I’m sorry for those in the SBC who have had to watch their denomination tearing itself apart.

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  9. They are actually giving anti-Southern Baptist Convention people ammunition.

    It would be funny; if it did not hurt and degrade sexual abuse victims.

    I don’t get the homosexual thing.

    Are they saying if you are a homosexual you can’t hate rape?

    Are they saying if you are a homosexual it does not matter that you were raped?

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  10. This twitter exchange made me really sad and left me with a heavy heart. It reminds me of exchanges I’ve had with very politically oriented people. They read certain websites and publications that are always pushing outrage and paranoia and they come out lashing out at everyone who seems to fit the role of the strawman they are used to seeing lambasted. This kind of perspective poisons the mind. There is no exchange of ideas or seeking for truth or growth; everything is a contest, a tit-for-tat, sharp jabs of words that are like knives so they can “win” whatever it is they think they are winning.

    This is not Christlike, it is not Christian, it does not reflect the scriptures that tell us how to behave toward others (even others who disagree with us or are different than us).

    These guys are fighting for a kingdom, a kingdom here on earth that they can see and feel and benefit from in the here and now. They have 2 Corinthians 4:18 turned backwards, “while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.” They are set on the temporal, not on things above, where Christ is. And they do not even know it. They’ve had a bait and switch.

    Such people assume God sees things as they do and never entertain for a moment that they may be missing the whole point of the Christian life. They think they can help and serve God by using the methods of the devil; lies, deceit, trickery, insults, bullying, intimidation… But “my kingdom is not of this world,” he said.

    If Jesus is really true, they will find that all they did was sully themselves while chasing after the wind. I kind of wonder if they really believe he is true? Or do they think he is real but somehow doesn’t see what they are doing? Or do they think Jesus taught, “the end justifies the means”? I think that with Jesus, the means is the end. The means are where the meaning is.

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  11. I smell narcissists!!!

    elastigirl:
    I read the rapid-fire twitter conversations today as they were happening.the responses from Rod D. Martin and defenders of Tom Ascol and Jared Longshore were breathtaking.

    they either have personality disorders that make them incapable of compassion/empathy and feeling what others feel,

    they never grew up emotionally to the developing stage of compassion and awareness of the feelings of others,

    or they’ve been brainwashed to see the world in black and white extremes, shutting of compassion and sensitivity

    whatever the case, they have a serious lack of awareness.

    reading the twitter conversation was sort of like a surreal science fiction thing…they look human, they sound human, but what they’re saying….there’s something wrong with them… i don’t think they’re human.

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  12. Guest:
    Why is it wrong if someone is protesting child rape?

    I am afraid the answer to this question is much more disturbing than that they just didn’t understand what the purpose of the rally was.

    I can’t help but wonder if deep-down, they support women and children being abused. Victims “caused” the downfall of friends and supporters, in their eyes.

    The SBC Calvinist movement is really suffering right now because some of their biggest names are accused or have been convicted of child molestation, rape, and spiritual abuse. The Founders put this movement into motion. The New Calvinists took their movement and turned it into a social media empire that took over every institution of the SBC. And now some of those big names have fallen. So instead of blaming the men who abused, they blame the victims.

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  13. ishy: I can’t help but wonder if deep-down, they support women and children being abused.

    Furthermore, the New Calvinist theology, at least, puts women as second class to men, whose only purpose is to serve men. They also believe that if women and children are abused, it’s their own fault because they weren’t “submitting enough”. I’m sure there are Founders who agree with that theology as well.

    In that world, when they think of men abusing children, they generally believe men only abuse female children. Men who abuse male children are considered gay. This is not true in actual practice, because straight men can abuse male children. But that’s what they believe. So the abused are always female. And if the sole purpose of women is to serve men, and women are not made in the image of God, then anyone fighting against abuse of children and women is fighting what they consider “God’s design.” And named “liberal”.

    More about how they view men and women and the image of God:
    https://theologyforwomen.org/2016/08/dr-bruce-ware-defines-complementarian-position.html

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  14. What are the Founders going to do if, as seems likely, it is discovered that one of the ways of being human is to be a cross-gender macro-chimera (fraternal twin zygotes of opposite gender that fuse at an early stage of development) with opposite gender chromosomes in the central nervous system and the reproductive anatomy.

    God weaves us together in the womb. It will be quite a shock for them if it terms out that this is one of the loom patterns.

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  15. Nathan Priddis: Controlling the message of Evangelicalism, will decide who controls the United States.

    Given the exodus from evangelicalism that is underway, I think that this will not be true in future. The young are leaving the movement even faster than old folk like myself. There was a quote in a prior comment of someone predicting coming persecution of what she considered to be “the true church.” But in my experience, the perception of persecution is simply that “we are not as influential and respected as we used to be.”

    At the beginning, the Church wasn’t in charge in Israel or in the Empire, and I suspect that it was better that way. They could focus on the NT “one another” commands and worry less about controlling people outside the churches.

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  16. SiteSeer: These guys are fighting for a kingdom, a kingdom here on earth that they can see and feel and benefit from in the here and now

    Yes, this, And in their kingdom, they get to call all the rules, say who is worthy to play in their sandbox and dismiss as friends of “Stan” anyone who deigns balk.

    Women who are strong, intelligent, and use the brain cells the Lord (mistakenly, it appears) gave them? Unworthy troublemakers and uninvited to the Table.

    Parking on specific beliefs (homosexuality, submissive women) give them a quick plumb line for entrance.

    I saw this decades ago with SGM, when I was a newly wed, hoping to gain entry into the Gathering of Believers, as they were called. We would set up meetings with leaders, only to have them be no-shows, leaving us high and dry. After two or three such insults, we got the message. We were strong, passionate, inquisitive, questioning and did not meet the criteria for entrance into the exclusive club, heartbroken for a nano-second until we realized the absurdity.

    Also, it seems that Ascol knows who butters his bread. He dropped out of the Twitter discussion in favor of letting someone higher on the totem pole have the spot light, showing godly submissiveness that he hopes will lead to the Founders having a seat at the coveted table.

    I don’t want a seat at this table. It’s tainted and I think beyond redemption. They are important only in their own minds. Enrollment is down Liberty University’s School of Divinity, leading to staff cuts, per news reports I saw yesterday. Young people aren’t interested in joining this unholy kingdom.

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  17. Remnant: Also, it seems that Ascol knows who butters his bread. He dropped out of the Twitter discussion in favor of letting someone higher on the totem pole have the spot light, showing godly submissiveness that he hopes will lead to the Founders having a seat at the coveted table.

    The Founders started most of this movement. Their influence led to the development of the New Calvinists. I don’t think he was showing godly submissiveness at all. I think he wanted someone else to take the heat. I think that “documentary” was a move to reclaim their “rightful place”. It’s just my guess, but I think Ascol is moving to be SBC President next year.

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  18. “I was frankly startled by the response of Rod D Martin. Is he an example of the new and improved SBC leadership?” (Dee)

    Rod Martin has a diverse background as a “technology entrepreneur, futurist, hedge fund manager, thought leader and activist” http://martinorganization.com/purpose-vision/rod-d-martin/biography/

    Martin is a member of Rocky Bayou Baptist Church, Niceville, FL … they are affiliated with the FOUNDERS MINISTRIES … may be why he is defending Ascol and crew. https://founders.org/church-search/?filter=usa%2Ffl

    Whew! The spider web of SBC theopolitics gets more disturbing by the day. Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!

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  19. This is not on topic, but a couple of days ago I saw the Lord Jesus Christ in a dream for my fourth time. I have written up what I saw and am sharing it with whoever would like to read it. I have a copy I can email out to anyone who wants to read it with my opinion on what it means to me. Just contact me through my webpage if you are interested. Here it is:

    The Fourth Time I have Seen Jesus

    In the middle of the night on 6/20/19 I saw my risen Lord for the fourth time in a dream. What I saw was this: I walked in through a doorway on the right side of what looked like a small church building. This room had pews with a walkway on the right, left and in the center. I do not remember seeing any walls or ceiling. Jesus was standing stoically in the back aisle behind the last rows of pews in between the rows. Jesus was dressed in a white robe. I do not remember seeing anyone sitting, nor was there anyone gathered around Jesus. There were at least a few others standing in their places in front of the pews scattered throughout the area.
    I then walked along behind the last row towards the left where Jesus was standing. I past Him and then stopped to put my right arm around him in a quick embrace. I do not remember Jesus responding much to this, nor especially acknowledging my hug. He was approachable but kept his focus staring forward apparently watching what the people were doing in the room. And so I left Him to take my place inside this building. I walked over to the left aisle and walked up a couple of rows and then walked over and stood in front of that pew standing close to the center aisle. As I stood looking forward I do not remember seeing anyone up on stage. Maybe there was a worship band there and/or a pastor, or maybe not. My attention was still on Jesus Christ even though He was not really doing anything externally but, instead, was observing. I do not remember how many others were there for the same reason, just that the building was far from packed out. So even though the real Jesus Christ was present there were too few willing to come and wait for Him. But for me, because Jesus was actually present here, the rest of the people were not my focus!
    As I stood silently looking forward and not watching Jesus I felt this inner trembling going on that the priests first felt when God’s Holy Spirit entered the Temple for the first time and filled the Ark of the Covenant. I was interacting actively with the unseen Holy Spirit. As I was trembling in righteous fear I saw in my spirit what was going on behind me. Jesus had become high and lifted up and was flying now, hovering over this meeting. As He did this He moved towards the very center of this place moving forward. I could see this internally so I did not have to actually look up and see it with my own eyes. Jesus stayed airborne, while ascending for some time.
    Then Jesus began to make His landing in this meeting. All the while I was filled with this strong inner trembling as I stood keeping my focus on Him and not on what other people in that room were doing. Jesus took as long, it seamed, to come down as it took for Him to go up. Eventually Jesus did land and when He did He was in the very center of the meeting, not in the front up on stage. When He landed I awoke out of this dream.

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  20. Here is a good look into Ascol: https://founders.org/2019/02/13/southern-baptists-sexual-abuse-and-a-far-more-serious-problem/

    Yes, churches need to take action to protect members from sexual abuse. However, if a church will not commit to guarding its membership and lovingly practicing discipline the Bible commands, then whatever steps it takes and however loudly it laments are little more than moral signaling and posturing.

    I think there was an ancient sage who said something about separating sheep and goats based on their doctrinal beliefs and insistence on following the rules. But I could be wrong.

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  21. brad/futuristguy: Given the behaviors of men of the Founders Ministries and of at least Mr. Martin from the SBC Executive Committee

    Was Martin representing the Founders or the SBC Executive Committee?

    He is a member of a Founders-Friendly church (less than 5% of SBC churches).

    He was just appointed to the Executive Committee, term expiring 2023.

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  22. ishy: The Founders started most of this movement. Their influence led to the development of the New Calvinists.

    Yes, the two movements are linked at the hip. Al Mohler has been a featured speaker at Founders Conferences.

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  23. Remnant: it seems that Ascol knows who butters his bread. He dropped out of the Twitter discussion in favor of letting someone higher on the totem pole have the spot light, showing godly submissiveness that he hopes will lead to the Founders having a seat at the coveted table.

    He is playing some sort of game. Is he running for President next year? Is the SBC considering adopting Founders’ modus operandi. Watch carefully in the next few months for new posts about *enemies in the church.*

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  24. Here’s my take on “Founders”.

    Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

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  25. Guest,

    That s a good question. Basically, we wanted this to be as positive a gathering as possible. Believe you me, the speakers spoke out against all abuse. We knew that they would attempt to call us disgruntled protestors.

    It is a word game. There is nothing wrong with protesting.However, they use the word to prove that we are left wing zealots. Note the dig about Michael Moore. That tells you how they are attempting to portray this group.

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  26. Remeber Ascol’s ‘Social Justice & the Gospel’ manifesto last year? Martin was one of sixteen men who were listed as initial signers at its release:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180905142432/https://statementonsocialjustice.com/

    “Initial Signers

    John MacArthur
    PASTOR, GRACE COMMUNITY CHURCH

    Voddie Baucham
    VBM

    Phil Johnson
    EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, GRACE TO YOU

    Rod Martin
    FOUNDER AND CEO, THE MARTIN ORGANIZATION

    James White
    DIRECTOR, ALPHA AND OMEGA MINISTRIES…”

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  27. dee: he is a new member which means the new and improved SBC leadership wanted him there. Is he their attack dog?

    I think he is positioning himself as an attack dog for the Founders, not necessarily the Executive Committee. He most likely was throwing his weight around as an EC member (a new one) to appear important, to support Ascol, and intimidate rally participants.

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  28. Samuel Conner,

    “What are the Founders going to do if, as seems likely, it is discovered that one of the ways of being human is to be a cross-gender macro-chimera ”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    well, Galileo comes to mind. they will indict, punish, and censor published material

    “the earth couldn’t possibly revolve around the sun — the bible says so.”–The Roman Inquisition

    heliocentrism: “foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture”.–The Roman Inquisition
    ———-

    1. Galileo was found “vehemently suspect of heresy” for this:

    “the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture.”

    2. He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition. On the following day, this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.

    3. His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.

    (from wikipedia)
    ——————

    boy, isn’t it great to have people like this as leaders?!?

    😐

    if they can’t be voted out, exercise your delightful right to leave.

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  29. ishy: It’s just my guess, but I think Ascol is moving to be SBC President next year.

    At this point, I don’t believe anyone can become SBC President without the blessing and vote of the New Calvinists. Tom Ascol has not been a visible part of that movement (to the young whippersnappers, he is “Tom who?”). The only way the new reformers (a sizable voting block at annual meetings now) would vote for him would be for someone to paint a picture that Ascol has been the man behind the curtain who created Mohler.

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  30. At least 5 years ago, some google rabbit hole led me to the founders.org website, where – to my growing consternation – I read an article on how calvinist pastors were to take over non-calvinist churches, never tellin the members in the pews who were paying their salaries about their ultimate goals, deflecting any questions that would come up with platitudes and basically “don’t worry your pretty little head with these theology questions!”. I can no longer find the article on their website.

    This is a group that has been mendacious from the start. If they say they follow Jesus, Jesus said “I am the truth. The truth will set you free.”

    They follow the father of lies. We know who that is.

    Also: they seem to be playing a game of “gotcha”. All’s fair in love and war. Life is a zero-sum game. Anyone who is against them can be intimidated, slandered. Remind me, who had this “fair game” policy for perceived “enemies”? They are a cult like scientology.

    “Cult” is not only about doctrines, it’s just as well about patterns of behaviour. If it walks like a cult and it quacks like a cult, …

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  31. Gus: At least 5 years ago, some google rabbit hole led me to the founders.org website, where – to my growing consternation – I read an article on how calvinist pastors were to take over non-calvinist churches, never tellin the members in the pews who were paying their salaries about their ultimate goals, deflecting any questions that would come up with platitudes and basically “don’t worry your pretty little head with these theology questions!”. I can no longer find the article on their website.

    Yes, I saw that, too. At one time, the Founders had an online copy of their book “The Quiet Revolution” … in it (I believe chapter 3) they provided instruction for the taking over non-Calvinist churches by stealth and deception. It was essentially a playbook on how to Calvinize a congregation whether they wanted it or not.

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  32. Max,

    is this it?

    https://founders.org/library/quiet-revolution/

    some pungent little morsels, from the section “Walking Without Slipping: Instructions for Local Church Reformation”:

    Accommodation.
    Study the biblical principle of accommodation. Accommodation is the willing restriction of the exercise of legitimate Christian liberty for the purpose of redeeming people whose consciences are bound by ignorance or misunderstanding resulting from man’s fallen nature (cf. 1 Cor. 8:9-13).

    Planning.
    ….My advice is that you not try to do too much too soon.

    Priorities.
    The principle of priorities must be applied. You can’t change everything at once. Start with the major doctrines of the faith – God, Christ, and salvation.

    Restraint.
    Remember the principle of restraint. Don’t tackle the whole church at one time. Choose a few men who are sincere, teachable and spiritually minded and spend time with them in study and prayer. They will help you to reform.

    Clarity.
    In the pulpit, don’t use theological language that is not found in the Bible. Avoid terms such as Calvinism, reformed, doctrines of grace, particular redemption, etc. Most people will not know what you are talking about. Many that do will become inflamed against you.

    Literature.
    Use sound literature, not indiscriminately, but wisely. Set up a book table in your church. Start with little things at first, that is, pamphlets and books

    History.
    Check the history of your church to see if it has any early constitutions or declarations of faith. …A gracious appeal to such a document will help give you credibility.

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  33. Dee: “So what did Moore do this time? Well, she is friendly with those who support homosexuality….well at least two people.”

    Remnant: Parking on specific beliefs (homosexuality, submissive women) give them a quick plumb line for entrance.

    Beth Moore is in a gotcha situation. What follows is not an attempt to address the sinfulness of homosexuality, but just to share one experience of the “gotcha.”

    Years ago a pastor asked me what church I belonged to, and then mocked me because my church was struggling over the question of including homosexual members.

    Having suffered through a church schism in my teens, I dreaded another one, but also felt it would be wrong to leave over a single unresolved issue. Still, I started to wonder: who were these homosexuals trying to join our church?

    That was the wrong question. The homosexuals were lifelong members, a very few people who had not made their orientation a topic in church. The fight came to us from elsewhere in our denomination. Our congregation was not being challenged to keep out new rabble-rousers, but to expel several gray-haired individuals, denounce their orientation, or tell them to stay in the closet.

    Fast forward a few years. Some folks, both straight and gay, did leave amid the pain. The place has otherwise recovered; the topic is no longer divisive. I miss the people who left.

    I wish Beth Moore all the best as she decides what to say and not say, do and not do. This is a painful topic, with a range of viewpoints and experiences.

    TWW friends, I truly hope this will not ignite an argument. I respect your beliefs. What is happening to Beth Moore is not a sincere theological dispute but an attempt at a takedown.

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  34. Of course, they don’t tell you what happened to the exemplar church in the Quiet Revolution manual, of Founders-style ‘imposed reformation’, North Pompano Baptist.

    Likewise, New Meadows Baptist Church in Topsfield, Massachusetts, 9Marks Dever’s prototype ‘Healthy Church’.

    Both churches flopped, they’re no longer in existence, haven’t been for years!

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  35. They’ve found the man to fill the last of the five SBC entity leadership vacancies.

    Ben Mandrell unveiled as choice to lead SBC’s publishing arm Lifeway:

    http://www.bpnews.net/53163/ben-mandrell-nominated-as-lifeway-presidentceo

    TWW readers may recognize him from a video posted here where he was interviewing CJ Mahaney at the SBC Pastors Conference (Mandrell was on the conference leadership team that chose Mahaney, Ravi Zacharias, Matt Chandler, etc. to speak that year)

    https://vimeo.com/12723117

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  36. elastigirl: “Avoid terms such as Calvinism, reformed, doctrines of grace, particular redemption, etc. Most people will not know what you are talking about. Many that do will become inflamed against you.” (The Quiet Revolution, Founders Ministries)

    Obviously not enough inflamed Southern Baptists to do something about the Calvinization of their denomination by stealth and deception. Last time I looked, stealth and deception were not listed as spiritual gifts (at least not Holy Spirit).

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  37. Ben Mandrell comes from ‘Storyline Fellowship’ a NAMB SEND church in Denver working to “Restore Biblical Manhood”:

    https://storylinefellowship.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Prospectus-May28-2014.pdf

    “Ben and Lynley believe in the Send North America vision—NAMB’s strategy for advancing the kingdom of Jesus Christ through an aggressive church planting movement (www.namb.net/cities). This strategy targets the major cities of North America, and the Mandrells felt compelled to go to Denver”

    The Mandrells led a team that moved across the country to Denver en masse to start the church:

    “Ben resigned his growing church in Jackson, Tennessee and led his family to re-plant their lives in Arvada, Colorado, a northwest suburb of Denver…A diverse team began to take shape, as families and individuals made the commitment to restart their lives”

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  38. Guest: I don’t get the homosexual thing.

    Neither do I get it.

    Fundagelicals, reformed or non, are obsessed with queer folk.

    You (generic you), can run a Ponzi scheme, be a slum-lord, deny water to refugees crossing the Sonoran desert, you name it, and it’s all ‘covered under the blood’.

    Just don’t get caught having a relaxed attitude toward those who don’t share your (straight) sexual orientation.

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  39. Friend,

    “Dee: “So what did Moore do this time? Well, she is friendly with those who support homosexuality….well at least two people.””
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    a few things articulated on twitter stood out to me:

    https://twitter.com/emilyt804/status/1142264617026109440
    Morgan Guyton @MAGuyton
    As a former Southern Baptist who was molested by my fundamentalist Sunday school teacher, I’ve been watching all this nonsense and it confirms my thesis that the purpose of making the LGBTQ issue a doctrinal circumcision mark is to have a basis for discrediting your enemies.

    https://twitter.com/scottieday117/status/1142218577069477888
    scottie day@scottieday117
    or those one is jealous of, or who pose a threat to one’s ego.

    it is sick. exploiting a group which has already been treated very badly in order to gain power over others.

    https://twitter.com/jackie28434752/status/1141875777488805888
    jackie@jackie28434752
    People go after homosexuals because it is the one “sin” they may not have done. It doesn’t even make the ten commandments. How about we kick out all the practising liars, adulterers, etc?

    (i hope these links i’m including are legal & don’t pose problems at TWW — i don’t fully understand everything. it’s important to me to cite my sources.)

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  40. Jerome,

    Jerome, can you use your wondrous investigative powers to find out how it is that Rod D. Martin has become appointed to the Executive Committee? who suggested/nominated him?

    (at least, it seems not insignificant to me)

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  41. Ken F (aka Tweed): Tom Ascol believes Founders is recovering the gospel … to him gospel = Calvinism. The end justifies the means.

    90+% of Christians worldwide have rejected the tenets of reformed theology and Ascol’s misrepresentation of God. Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about the free will of man. It all works together in a way that is beyond human comprehension. To put the mind of God into a neat systematic theological box is to stand in arrogance before the Creator. There is no shortage of arrogance in Founders and New Calvinist ranks, who believe they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the Gospel which the rest of Christendom has lost. They are passionate about their cause … but it is a misplaced passion.

    Regarding “the end justifies the means” … Abraham Lincoln (speaking about slavery rights) said “You do not have the right to do wrong.”

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  42. Ken F (aka Tweed): Tom Ascol believes Founders is recovering the gospel: https://founders.org/2013/09/17/founders-ministries-thirty-years-of-working-for-the-recovery-of-the-gospel/. Of course, to him gospel = Calvinism. The end justifies the means.

    What startled me about the filming was not that they were doing it. That’s to be expected. It was the person Marcus (Pittman) who was filming at a distance. Pittman belongs to Apologia Church*, a Reformed Baptist church which meets not two miles from where I sit, which in Phoenix terms means it’s right next door. Apologia is not part of the SBC, BUT one of the initial signers of that statement, along with Tom Ascol and Rod Martin is apologist with a fake doctorate** James White, who was just installed as a pastor/elder.

    Now my interest in Apologia Church and its leaders is beyond the scope of Dee’s post, but my *point* (and I actually have one) is, “why are these SBC leaders making common cause with independent Reformed Baptist churches and leaders?” It has occurred to me that perhaps they are laying the groundwork for a breakaway convention, which is not without precedent. After all, there is the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

    I also was part of the discussion on Twitter with Rod Martin and if he’s an example of Southern Baptist manhood, I’d rather deal with secular guys. At least they’re not trying to pull the “I’m holier than thou” card on you.

    * Pittman may or may not be employed by Apologia Church or its outreach arm Apologia Studios. It’s hard to tell from his Twitter and Facebook accounts.

    ** White got it from unaccredited Columbia Evangelical Seminary. Since 2014 he’s been working on what is supposedly going to be a legit doctorate from a South African university.

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  43. “So what did Moore do this time? Well, she is friendly with those who support homosexuality….well at least two people.” (Dee)

    A smoke screen. The ole boys know that Southern Baptists would be alarmed if Beth supported alternative lifestyles in any way. Their real concern behind this accusing of the sistren is Beth Moore’s criticism of SBC’s patriarchal ways re: subordination of female believers. They are trying to push her into silence to protect her book/conference deal with LifeWay (IMO) … something she may be willing to unplug from at this point.

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  44. Nathan Priddis: Controlling the message of Evangelicalism, will decide who controls the United States. There can be no Kingdom on Earth without addressing earthly rivals.

    So tell me, when your crusade has enough momentum, will you put the Jews and the Muslims to the sword too?

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  45. elastigirl: you mean there’s something more explicit out there?

    I may be wrong (it’s been several years since I viewed “The Quiet Revolution”), but I believe there was an earlier edition that ‘might’ have provided bolder how-to advice to reformers on moving deceptively through SBC ranks. The chapter titles in the current posted edition don’t ring a bell, although the content appears similar.

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  46. Max: I may be wrong (it’s been several years since I viewed “The Quiet Revolution”), but I believe there was an earlier edition that ‘might’ have provided bolder how-to advice to reformers on moving deceptively through SBC ranks. The chapter titles in the current posted edition don’t ring a bell, although the content appears similar.

    Could it be this – http://www.reformedreader.org/aqr.htm. I cannot tell if the current online version is the same as the kne described here.

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  47. Law finally passed authorizing TGC council member Harry Reeder’s church to set up its own police force:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/449838-megachurch-forming-police-force-after-passage-of-alabama-law

    “A megachurch in Alabama is planning to create its own police force after the passage of a law allowing it to…A similar bill reportedly was considered four years ago, but was dropped amid public outcry over the church’s racist history and concerns that it violated the Establishment Clause’s separation of church and state.”

    https://www.apnews.com/c09feda825c441289bf14b996580dfc5

    “June 19, 2019
    MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) — Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey has signed legislation permitting Briarwood Presbyterian Church to establish its own police force for its church and school campuses.

    The law approved two weeks ago allows the Birmingham-based church to set-up a private law enforcement department to make arrests when crimes are committed on its properties.

    Church officials say the measure is necessary to provide adequate security for the 2,000 students and faculty on its two private school campuses.

    Randall Marshall, the executive director of the ACLU of Alabama, says the law could allow the church to cover-up criminal activity that occurs on its campuses. He expects the law to be challenged in the courts”

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  48. Jerome: Law finally passed authorizing TGC council member Harry Reeder’s church to set up its own police force:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/449838-megachurch-forming-police-force-after-passage-of-alabama-law

    “A megachurch in Alabama is planning to create its own police force after the passage of a law allowing it to…A similar bill reportedly was considered four years ago, but was dropped amid public outcry over the church’s racist history and concerns that it violated the Establishment Clause’s separation of church and state.”

    This is not going to end well. No church, and I repeat *no church*, should have its own police department. As long as churches don’t deal well with child sexual abuse, it is a severe conflict of interest. I can very easily see the “church police department” suppressing evidence of crimes for the protection and benefit of the church. And it doesn’t have to be child sexual abuse either. Just think of the crimes that could be covered up by keeping them within the “church police department”! This is a bad precedent and I hope the law is declared unconstitutional.

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  49. Guest: I don’t get the homosexual thing.

    I do.
    Snarl Word.
    Dog Whistle to the Faithful, disconnecting every neuron above the Christianese brainstem and waving a Bright Red Murder Flag in front of what’s left. Blind reflex action, Stimulus –> Response.

    Homosexuality… Even the mention of the word is sufficient to induce… PANIC:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQuieWA3SWY

    P.S. When I took a look this morning, the comment count on this thread was 69. How… Appropriate.

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  50. Muff Potter: So tell me, when your crusade has enough momentum, will you put the Jews and the Muslims to the sword too?

    Why Stop There?
    When there are no more Infidels/Heathens, start on the Heretics.
    When there are no more Heretics, start on the Apostates.
    Until you hit the Theoretical Limit only approached IRL by the Khmer Rouge.

    What do Predators eat after they’ve eaten all the prey?

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  51. Jerome: The law approved two weeks ago allows the Birmingham-based church to set-up a private law enforcement department to make arrests when crimes are committed on its properties.

    Just like the Religious Police — excuse me, “Promoters of Virtue and Suppressors of Vice” — in Saudi, Talibanistan, and the Global Caliphate of ISIS.

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  52. Max: “So what did Moore do this time? Well, she is friendly with those who support homosexuality….well at least two people.” (Dee)

    This is commonly called “Playing Teh Fag Card off the bottom of the deck.”

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  53. Jerome: the law could allow the church to cover-up criminal activity that occurs on its campuses.

    Predicting right now that the church police will also criminalize and inhibit perfectly normal behavior (asking “what”) and low-level dissent (asking “why”).

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  54. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Just think of the crimes that could be covered up by keeping them within the “church police department”!

    Also think of the infractions that could be prosecuted if pewpeons don’t agree with the direction of the church. It opens all kinds of new opportunities for those special Matthew 18 tribunals.

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  55. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I can very easily see the “church police department” suppressing evidence of crimes for the protection and benefit of the church. And it doesn’t have to be child sexual abuse either. Just think of the crimes that could be covered up by keeping them within the “church police department”!

    FEATURE, NOT BUG.
    http://i1.wp.com/www.nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/lamb-thoughts.jpg

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  56. I was in that Twitter-fight! lol. So frustrating – Rod Martin doesn’t seem to have the slightest idea about ethics. It’s appropriate to have higher expectations for ministry leaders… higher standards than even a secular journalist. But the Founders guys were not even up to the ethical standards of a secular journalist. The Founders dudes had an agenda (making a “documentary”) & they could have found answers to their questions by actually reading these speakers’ blogs. So why didn’t they?

    I screen member requests for FB groups to see if people will be safe members of a support group. Anyone who is a public figure or ministry leader is super easy to screen, because they usually have a blog link in their FB profile. Sometimes I’ll hop over to their blog to see if they are being honest, or if they are looking to join our group under false pretenses and try to discourage women in ministry. (actually get quite a few attempts!) It’s not rocket science to find out what a public figure believes. If the Founders guys took the time, they could easily find out where each Rally member stood on the various issues. It would have been easy for them to find out answers to their questions in a civil way, using existing public information.

    So why did these guys find it so important to get *these kinds of* video clips of Rally speakers?? Easy. They knew the information direct from the speakers’ websites wasn’t enough. They wanted to make a propaganda video portraying the speakers off guard and appearing disoriented. Why? Because they want to claim that feminist Christians are just winging it and don’t know our theology confidently. A video like that could be used to craft an illusion that conference speakers weren’t sure about their beliefs, or were not being open about them. No matter what they answered, the Founders were planning to twist it and use it maliciously. They didn’t need the information – they were looking for a video clip for propaganda.

    Women in ministry get this all the time… people blatantly twist anything we say or do to become personal attacks and accusations that we don’t take our faith seriously. Many disagreements are discarded with, “Well, it’s not me you disagree with, it’s God!” Any sign of being undecided about any point of theology is exploited with accusations that we don’t have “real” or “saving” faith. They try to set up strawmen arguments to be easily knocked down.

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  57. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Herbert W. Armstrong, his books are still floating around in used book stores and thrift stores.

    Ronald L. Dart’s radio programs are still pushing his mantra.

    After I was first saved, I listened to Mr. Dart and then started asking for the free materials. When I received the booklet on Restorationism, it caused me to take a second look at him.

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  58. Dee’s bullet point:
    “I believe that there will be an increasing attack on those who do not subscribe to the gospel™ views of The Founders.”

    For anyone who doubts the Founders “interview” of Ashley Easter at the Rally was not premeditated to discredit Ashley and other survivors, for reasons already mentioned herein, please note that last September Ashley wrote a blog to expose and educate on a couple signers of the so-called Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel. She wrote about her first-person experience with the abusive teachings of John MacArthur and Voddie Bauchman.

    http://www.ashleyeaster.com/blog/macarthur-and-bauchman

    Ashley’s last sentence rings true:
    “With this knowledge should we really be looking to these men for guidance on justice issues?”

    Bet you I wasn’t the only one who read her blog!

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  59. Guest:
    They are actually giving anti-Southern Baptist Convention people ammunition.

    It would be funny; if it did not hurt and degrade sexual abuse victims.

    I don’t get the homosexual thing.

    Are they saying if you are a homosexual you can’t hate rape?

    Are they saying if you are a homosexual it does not matter that you were raped?

    In answer to your questions, it appears to me that in their eyes, if you are merely sympathetic to LGBTQA+ people instead of automatically blanket-condemning them, your opinions don’t matter and your experiences (even including abuse) are irrelevant.

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  60. Alana,

    “Any sign of being undecided about any point of theology is exploited with accusations that we don’t have “real” or “saving” faith.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    and they think the fact that they are compelled to decide on every point of theology and have all the answers about the God of the universe makes them look good?

    i mean, it’s the technical definition of a self-deceived arrogant narrow-minded ignoramus.

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  61. Has SNAP and the other abuse advocate groups ever done cross country rallies, on the same day, to expose the abuse in both Christian and secular institutions?

    The Founders’ and their associates couldn’t resist responding like JMac, with the same results.

    Also, this could strengthen other abused and survivors to come forward.

    Just a thought. 🙂

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  62. elastigirl:
    Max,

    is this it?

    https://founders.org/library/quiet-revolution/

    some pungent little morsels, from the section “Walking Without Slipping: Instructions for Local Church Reformation”:

    Accommodation.
    Study the biblical principle of accommodation. Accommodation is the willing restriction of the exercise of legitimate Christian liberty for the purpose of redeeming people whose consciences are bound by ignorance or misunderstanding resulting from man’s fallen nature (cf. 1 Cor. 8:9-13).

    Planning.
    ….My advice is that you not try to do too much too soon.

    Priorities.
    The principle of priorities must be applied. You can’t change everything at once. Start with the major doctrines of the faith – God, Christ, and salvation.

    Restraint.
    Remember the principle of restraint. Don’t tackle the whole church at one time. Choose a few men who are sincere, teachable and spiritually minded and spend time with them in study and prayer. They will help you to reform.

    Clarity.
    In the pulpit, don’t use theological language that is not found in the Bible. Avoid terms such as Calvinism, reformed, doctrines of grace, particular redemption, etc. Most people will not know what you are talking about. Many that do will become inflamed against you.

    Literature.
    Use sound literature, not indiscriminately, but wisely. Set up a book table in your church. Start with little things at first, that is, pamphlets and books

    History.
    Check the history of your church to see if it has any early constitutions or declarations of faith. …A gracious appeal to such a document will help give you credibility.

    For some reason, I am strongly reminded of the tone of The Screwtape Letters.

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  63. ishy: It’s just my guess, but I think Ascol is moving to be SBC President next year.

    There was talk of running Ascol to knock off Greear this year, but next year Ascol won’t have to face an incumbent. Looks like this convention they focused on demonizing/marginalizing the opposition, and will be casting Ascol as their white knight uniting conservatives against the evil progressives next year.

    A ‘Capstone Report’ blog several months ago, telling SBC traditionalists that it’s time to put aside differences over Calvinism and unite behind an Ascol candidacy:

    http://capstonereport.com/2019/02/05/sbc-birmingham-2019-southern-baptists-should-nominate-tom-ascol-for-sbc-president/32252/

    “The Southern Baptist Convention needs integrity, leadership and to stand for orthodoxy against progressivism. For too many years Southern Baptists have viewed Calvinism and Traditionalism as the division in our Convention. That isn’t what divides Southern Baptists. What divides Southern Baptists are those who hold to an orthodox understanding of the Gospel as opposed to progressives who promote ethnic Gnosticism and the ‘tearing down of all hierarchy’ to empower feminism in the church. This division between orthodox Christians…must end so that we may stand shoulder-to-shoulder in the great battle of our time—fighting the Social Justice corruption of the Gospel.”

    “What better way to unify than for a strong Traditionalist to nominate a good, conservative Calvinist? Or for that matter, a strong Calvinist to nominate a good, conservative Traditionalist? Such a move would demonstrate that minor divisions must be put aside for the greater good of all Christians. This is why I would strongly urge a Traditionalist to nominate Dr. Tom Ascol for SBC President…To foster this spirit of comity, I’d encourage a strong Calvinist to nominate a good Traditionalist as SBC Vice President…the start of a new grand coalition of conservative Southern Baptists”

    “The only check to progressivism is a strong, orthodox leader. I believe Dr. Ascol is that man. His presentation at the recent conference on Social Justice & the Gospel was a stirring defense against the Neo-Marxist racial assumptions. His dynamic, thoughtful lecture was heard by over 1,700 conference session attendees and watched by countless more on the Internet. He is a leader with a voice heard within not only the Southern Baptist Convention, but all of evangelicalism.”

    “Dr. Ascol is a man of integrity. As such, I believe he would lead not as a Calvinist, but a Southern Baptist committed to unifying and representing all our theological traditions. The most important job of the president in many ways is the appointment of trustees. I feel confident that Dr. Ascol would appoint conservative Southern Baptists of all traditions in consult with state convention leaders. These trustees would hold entity heads accountable and not enable their wild, progressive moves.”

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  64. Alana: I screen member requests for FB groups to see if people will be safe members of a support group. Anyone who is a public figure or ministry leader is super easy to screen, because they usually have a blog link in their FB profile. Sometimes I’ll hop over to their blog to see if they are being honest, or if they are looking to join our group under false pretenses and try to discourage women in ministry.

    Now I want to join your Facebook group…

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  65. Jerome: “[Ascol’s] presentation at the recent conference on Social Justice & the Gospel was a stirring defense against the Neo-Marxist racial assumptions.”

    Does Ascol agree with whatever the heck this is trying to say?

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  66. Jerome,

    “A ‘Capstone Report’ blog several months ago, telling SBC traditionalists that it’s time to put aside differences over Calvinism and unite behind an Ascol candidacy”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    Jerome, you have amazing research powers. who is behind the Capstone Report?

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  67. Jerome: “What divides Southern Baptists are those who hold to an orthodox understanding of the Gospel as opposed to progressives who promote ethnic Gnosticism…” (quoting capstone report)

    This is a very interesting statement because one can make a very good argument that Calvinism is a form of Gnosticism. Here is one of many examples: https://davidwithun.com/2010/03/24/calvinism-is-still-gnosticism/

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  68. https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/baptists/russell-moore-faces-a-challenging-road-ahead/

    “Southern Baptist blogger Alan Atchison of Chelsea, Ala….editor of the Capstone Report, which covers Southern Baptist religion, politics and University of Alabama football.”

    https://vachristian.org/evangelical-political-theology-resources-for-the-concerned-christian/

    “About Alan Atchison
    Alan Atchison is a Southern Baptist living in Chelsea, Alabama (a suburb of Birmingham). He earned a Master of Arts Interdisciplinary Studies History & Political Science from Western New Mexico University. He studied Church History at Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. He holds a BA in Political Science from the University of Alabama at Birmingham. Atchison is married to Paige and they have one son. He is an online publishing consultant for newspapers in the Southeastern states including South Carolina and Tennessee. In addition, he blogs about faith, politics and sometimes Alabama football.”

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  69. elastigirl: Jerome, can you use your wondrous investigative powers to find out how it is that Rod D. Martin has become appointed to the Executive Committee? who suggested/nominated him?

    https://books.google.com/books?id=zqVPDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT30

    “The Committee on Nominations…plays an important role, nominating the following: 1. Members of the Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention…”

    “Every member of the Committee on Nominations must have been a resident of his or her respective state (or affiliated with that convention) for at least three years. This is to ensure that committee members will have an informed knowledge of the people in their state for recommendation.”

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  70. So, the Committee on Nominations chooses the nominees for the SBC Executive Committee. I’m sure it didn’t hurt that the vice chairman of the Nominations Committee was Rod Martin’s “dear friend”!

    Martin also served as

    http://www.bpnews.net/51092/messengers-elect-committee-on-nominations

    “Committee on Nominations for 2018-2019…The committee will make nominations to messengers at the June 2019 SBC annual meeting in Birmingham…Ted Traylor, vice chair, Olive Baptist, Pensacola”

    http://rodmartin.org/dr-ted-traylor-endurance/

    “my dear friend Dr. Ted Traylor, Senior Pastor at Olive Baptist Church in Pensacola”

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  71. Jerome: He is a leader with a voice heard within not only the Southern Baptist Convention, but all of evangelicalism.”

    Ascol WHO? Never heard of him till just last week on TWW. This bunch of guys sure are puffed up in their own eyes.

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  72. Max,
    Why are they all worked up about sexual orientation? Pressler allegedly abused many males through the decades. Plenty of homosexual predaShtion being exposed in church world these days. If molesting & assaulting children and women can’t get them worked up, why make sexual orientation a deal breaker? Shaking my head!

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  73. “Why did Tom Ascol hide behind his kids and Rod D Martin?”

    Another despicable thing Founders Ministries did years ago using a family member was register for themselves the ‘southernbaptistconvention dot org’ domain to forward traffic to the Founders website.

    Former SBC vice president Bart Barber explains:

    http://praisegodbarebones.blogspot.com/2011/01/sbc-cybersquatting.html

    “The domain….was apparently registered by Tom Ascol, or perhaps by the Reisingers, since barbreisinger@mac.com is the contact email for the registrant. And the page that you land on over at Founders does appear to be designed for people coming from this particular domain name. It seems to me that this is cybersquatting, pure and simple…it is not illegal, but it surely is unethical.”

    https://web.archive.org/web/20110110114514/http://blog.founders.org/2005/08/jack-graham-on-truth-about-grace-pt-1.html?showComment=1125518400000#c112551842805074016

    Founders webmaster Stan Reeves:

    “we have a little-known secret weapon.
    See http://www.southernbaptistconvention.org :-)”

    Founders eventually was shamed into turning the domain over to the SBC; so now if you type southernbaptistconvention.org it sends you to the SBC website sbc.net rather than the Founders website, as it did for so many years.

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  74. Mae: Bingo.

    I imagine the so called, police force, will be all male too.

    I get the need for security but surely that could be accomplished through a private security firm.

    I suspect we’ll find this church trying to shake down the county and/or the state for funding of their private police department.

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  75. Deborah: Why are they all worked up about sexual orientation? Pressler allegedly abused many males through the decades. Plenty of homosexual predaShtion being exposed in church world these days. If molesting & assaulting children and women can’t get them worked up, why make sexual orientation a deal breaker? Shaking my head!

    When you think in terms of a triage situation for evangelical protestantism, with its very survival at stake, it (fixation on sexual orientation) makes no sense, does it?

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  76. Jerome: Randall Marshall, the executive director of the ACLU of Alabama, says the law could allow the church to cover-up criminal activity that occurs on its campuses. He expects the law to be challenged in the courts”

    Let’s hope so. But who knows where that will lead these days.

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  77. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: This is not going to end well. No church, and I repeat *no church*, should have its own police department. As long as churches don’t deal well with child sexual abuse, it is a severe conflict of interest. I can very easily see the “church police department” suppressing evidence of crimes for the protection and benefit of the church. And it doesn’t have to be child sexual abuse either. Just think of the crimes that could be covered up by keeping them within the “church police department”! This is a bad precedent and I hope the law is declared unconstitutional.

    If James MacDonald’s church had had its own police dept, I wonder how they’d have handled his desire to have someone killed?

    I’m really doubting the church police would take a stand against the pastor.

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  78. DebWill: For anyone who doubts the Founders “interview” of Ashley Easter at the Rally was not premeditated to discredit Ashley and other survivors, for reasons already mentioned herein, please note that last September Ashley wrote a blog to expose and educate on a couple signers of the so-called Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel. She wrote about her first-person experience with the abusive teachings of John MacArthur and Voddie Bauchman.

    http://www.ashleyeaster.com/blog/macarthur-and-bauchman

    Ashley’s last sentence rings true:
    “With this knowledge should we really be looking to these men for guidance on justice issues?”

    Bet you I wasn’t the only one who read her blog!

    If there is going to be any kind of group standing against abuse, they are going to put it together and staff it with their own puppets and be in control of it. The rally people are sincere and real, they can’t have that.

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  79. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I suspect we’ll find this church trying to shake down the county and/or the state for funding of their private police department.

    I think a key question is what is their jurisdiction and what control and oversight does the state have over this police force. A big worry would be if their jurisdiction extends beyond the boundaries of the church’s own land.

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  80. Jerome: Law finally passed authorizing TGC council member Harry Reeder’s church to set up its own police force:
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/449838-megachurch-forming-police-force-after-passage-of-alabama-law
    “A megachurch in Alabama is planning to create its own police force after the passage of a law allowing it to…A similar bill reportedly was considered four years ago, but was dropped amid public outcry over the church’s racist history and concerns that it violated the Establishment Clause’s separation of church and state.”
    https://www.apnews.com/c09feda825c441289bf14b996580dfc5
    “June 19, 2019
    MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) — Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey has signed legislation permitting Briarwood Presbyterian Church to establish its own police force for its church and school campuses.
    The law approved two weeks ago allows the Birmingham-based church to set-up a private law enforcement department to make arrests when crimes are committed on its properties.
    Church officials say the measure is necessary to provide adequate security for the 2,000 students and faculty on its two private school campuses.
    Randall Marshall, the executive director of the ACLU of Alabama, says the law could allow the church to cover-up criminal activity that occurs on its campuses. He expects the law to be challenged in the courts”

    Reminds me of the security forces that answer solely to the Hubbard successor, all while the mouthpieces seek to assure those with lyin eyes that everything’s fine and all is well with all as well.

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  81. SiteSeer: If James MacDonald’s church had had its own police dept, I wonder how they’d have handled his desire to have someone killed?

    I’m really doubting the church police would take a stand against the pastor.

    The fact that it went to a legislative level and the fact that it passed meant they REALLY wanted their own police force. Their force means they vet them. Their force means they tell what and how to report. Their force means a bigmold buffer between them and outside oversight on the front end of jurisprudence. Oversight and accountability is kept in house.

    And a governor signed off on this. Sects, cults, grievous wolves, and your run of the mill hirelings and autocrats must be doing handstands at the blueprint laid out. And ironically, Alabama may be the state that opened the door for sharia forces on US soil by precedent.

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  82. Deborah,

    “Why are they all worked up about sexual orientation? …why make sexual orientation a deal breaker?”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    i’m guessing they all see opportunities to grab power.

    Here is my analysis. I am basing “love” on the ideas communicated in 1 Corinthians 13, and hate as its antithesis.
    ————

    The men from Founders, the women like Martha Peace who are holding Beth Moore hostage, and many others are exploiting the gay community, this devastatedly rejected & hurting people group, in order to get power for themselves.

    it makes me sick. It should make everyone sick.

    These groups and individuals seeking to grab power take a harsh stand by rejecting the gay community as guilty of the most egregious of all sins who are thus worthy of ultimate excoriation. They make their views public, and persuade others to adopt them.

    They see opportunities to grab the power of those with influence (or the threat of growing influence) who do not express wholesale rejection of the gay community, but instead embody a kinder approach.

    Those seeking power instinctively know the following:

    –multitides of Christians are burdened down by focusing on their own sin (as their theology emphasizes).

    –gay sex is the one sin that is not a burden for them.

    –focusing on gay sex shifts the spotlight away from their own sin and shines it on the gay community instead.

    –this gives these Christians a feeling of relief, of control and superiority, soothing their feelings of guilt, insecurity and failure

    These groups and individuals who are seeking to grab their share of power challenge those with influence on their kinder approach, betting that they will not adopt their own hardline stance.

    They are betting that the christian masses will be stirred up against them, and thus their power bases will be weakened. They appeal to christian hatred for the gay community and claim the shortfall of power for themselves.
    ————–

    …and so they exploit the gay community by exploiting the hatred people have for them, which they themselves have fomented, as the means to acquire power for themselves.

    Aside from The Nashville Statement, this really is one of the sickest thing i have witnessed in a long time.

    (thank you for reading, and wish i could have made that more succinct)

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  83. Until I began reading Wartburg Watch, I had no idea who all these guys were. I now read regularly because I want to know what is happening in this part of “The Church.” Even using the term “The Church” makes me sad because it is nothing like what Jesus had intended us to be experiencing. All I have to do (and I don’t have a “Rev. Dr.” title, or other puffy title) is to hold up what I am learning about these people, and their “walk and talk” – next to the Fruits of the Holy Spirit – “love, joy, peace….” and to remember other Scriptures that guide us to think and talk about ” whatsoever things are true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, and of good report..” I have a simple solution: Have these people take an unpaid 2 year “sabbatical” not to write a money-making book, but to work. They pay for their own housing, medical, gas, books, and workshops, get up early and put in a full 8-10 hour day with no trips home, or to the gym, or to other places the rest of us pew-sitters can’t do during the day, and learn what it is to work under someone else’s supervision “as unto the Lord.” Work Monday-Friday. Use Saturday for the family/personal/catch up day, and go to church on Sunday. Get up on Monday and start all over again. Work under someone else’s authority, learn humility and develop a servant- heart. Honestly examine egotism, pride-fulness, condescension, and feelings of entitlement. It is good to work in what Jesus called “the vineyard” – and what is the “church beyond church walls.” It is a powerful opportunity for personal spiritual growth, growing in love for others, and learning how to converse and appreciate friendships with others who have different backgrounds and whose choices are different than our own. The “siloed” thinking, and isolated, same-circles-of-yes-friends, seem to have led to cases of arrested development, and a whole lot of reprehensible behaviors. I get to go to church tomorrow – an open and affirming church – where all are welcome to sing, pray, hear and read Scripture, and learn and grow in our faith journeys. For this I am thankful. I am thankful for you, too, Deb, and for all I have learned from reading your well-researched writing.

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  84. It seems to me that men of their ilk are law-mongers. All they can see and apply to everyone is their own twisted interpretation of God’s law without any regard for their own guilt.

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  85. Jerome: Founders webmaster Stan Reeves:

    Stan Reeves appears to be the “Grey Eminence” beind Founders. I contacted Founders once, which resulted in an email dialogue with Stan. He is a professor at Auburn University, one of two founding elders of a 9Marks and TGC reformed baptist church in Auburn (Grace Heritage), and author of “Confessing the Faith” – the 1689 Baptist Confession in modern English. This pdf has an article where he describes how to plant a 9Marks style of church (starts on page 15): http://legacy.founders.org/main/wp-content/uploads/fj72.pdf

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  86. Shirley Myers: I have a simple solution: Have these people take an unpaid 2 year “sabbatical” not to write a money-making book, but to work. They pay for their own housing, medical, gas, books, and workshops, get up early and put in a full 8-10 hour day with no trips home, or to the gym, or to other places the rest of us pew-sitters can’t do during the day, and learn what it is to work under someone else’s supervision “as unto the Lord.”

    It’s a wonderful idea, but I suspect many of these men are sociopaths or psychopaths and they cannot learn from their mistakes.

    I think a better plan would be to find as many ways as possible to teach the church how to identify and defend against predators. Because it’s church members who keep allowing these people control.

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  87. Christians in the US who forecast persecution should expect to see it come from only one place – other Christians, specifically from Christians in powerful positions. Separation of Church and State came about for just this reason, one Christian group was persecuting a less powerful Christian group.

    Some things never change.

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  88. ishy: it’s church members who keep allowing these people control

    Exactly. Actors would have no stage if they didn’t have an audience paying to keep them on it. The American church – the pewsitters – support bad-boy ministers and ministries. The genuine can’t show forth because the counterfeit is in the way. Both pulpit and pew don’t have enough spiritual sense to know the difference.

    “The prophets prophesy falsely,
    And the priests rule on their own authority;
    And My people love to have it so!
    But what will you do when the end comes?”
    (Jeremiah 5:31)

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  89. SiteSeer: If James MacDonald’s church had had its own police dept, I wonder how they’d have handled his desire to have someone killed?

    Consider the heavy-handed control of the church by the magisterial reformers, who had the law in their pocket. Consider what happened to Servetus by the authorities in Geneva with just a word from Calvin.

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  90. Shirley Myers: “The Church” makes me sad because it is nothing like what Jesus had intended us to be experiencing

    Once you see that, Shirley, you can’t un-see it. The institutional church is living far below what God has in mind for us. The authority of Jesus in the American church is waning and He has left us to our own ways.

    Thanks for stopping by TWW. Come back. You have much to offer.

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  91. SiteSeer: This twitter exchange made me really sad and left me with a heavy heart. It reminds me of exchanges I’ve had with very politically oriented people. They read certain websites and publications that are always pushing outrage and paranoia and they come out lashing out at everyone who seems to fit the role of the strawman they are used to seeing lambasted. This kind of perspective poisons the mind. There is no exchange of ideas or seeking for truth or growth; everything is a contest, a tit-for-tat, sharp jabs of words that are like knives so they can “win” whatever it is they think they are winning.

    This is not Christlike, it is not Christian, it does not reflect the scriptures that tell us how to behave toward others (even others who disagree with us or are different than us).

    These guys are fighting for a kingdom, a kingdom here on earth that they can see and feel and benefit from in the here and now. They have 2 Corinthians 4:18 turned backwards, “while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.” They are set on the temporal, not on things above, where Christ is. And they do not even know it. They’ve had a bait and switch.

    Such people assume God sees things as they do and never entertain for a moment that they may be missing the whole point of the Christian life. They think they can help and serve God by using the methods of the devil; lies, deceit, trickery, insults, bullying, intimidation… But “my kingdom is not of this world,” he said.

    If Jesus is really true, they will find that all they did was sully themselves while chasing after the wind. I kind of wonder if they really believe he is true? Or do they think he is real but somehow doesn’t see what they are doing? Or do they think Jesus taught, “the end justifies the means”? I think that with Jesus, the means is the end. The means are where the meaning is.

    I know this is a long quote, but everything you said was so important. Yes, the Limbaugh brainwashed troops believe every word that is uttered, then wash it down with a few TGC podcasts. What is being created is mindless, legalistic, empathy-less soldiers who will turn on their own loved ones for ‘the cause’. I know.

    Why are we (that includes me) so surprised when we discover that we have the same sort of hypocritical religious leaders as all man-made religious institutions always have had?

    It is because we believe their lies, which are always the same: “We are ‘the ones’. We are building ‘the kingdom of God’. We alone are holy and pure. All who disagree with us are enemies of God.”

    I get tired trying to figure out all of the motives behind the arrogance, rudeness, lying, manipulation, etc. Why is it so important to keep women silent? Why is it so important to wave liberalism, homosexuality, abortion as flags to rally the troops? Who knows? The list could be endless.

    What I do know is that it looks nothing like the real kingdom of God, demonstrated by Jesus Christ, the true king. Whatever these people are up to, whatever it is they are building, it is not the kingdom of God, as can be seen by the character of the architects.

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  92. Shirley Myers: …2 year “sabbatical” not to write a money-making book, but to work. They pay for their own housing, medical, gas, books, and workshops, get up early and put in a full 8-10 hour day…

    Have any of these pastor-tyrants ever held down a humble McJob, even during college? Students today are guided toward unpaid internships in prestigious organizations, or allowed to take summers off. These practices shelter those who have already been raised like hothouse flowers. The poor, of course, cannot afford to work for free, nor do they know how to make forced unemployment look like skiing in Dubai.

    Summer jobs among college students I know: lifeguard, kennel employee, car detailer, fry cook, day camp counselor, restaurant host, ice cream scooper, drugstore shift supervisor. Every one of those jobs would prepare someone for the ministry. Jesus recruited among the smelly fishing boats, eh?

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  93. ishy: The SBC Calvinist movement is really suffering right now because some of their biggest names are accused or have been convicted of child molestation, rape, and spiritual abuse. The Founders put this movement into motion. The New Calvinists took their movement and turned it into a social media empire that took over every institution of the SBC. And now some of those big names have fallen. So instead of blaming the men who abused, they blame the victims.

    And they are desperate to vilify those in the blogosphere who have been instrumental in bringing light to their darkness. Which are mostly, you guessed it, women.

    When the men controlled all of the organs of information, they controlled the narrative. They could hide and cover any misdeeds. And they did. And now the light is being shone upon their deeds. The skeletons in their closet have been ‘born again’ – perhaps the only creatures they have ever ‘saved’ – and they are passionately giving their testimonies.

    There is real fear in the camp. We need to keep the pressure on, keep the backs of the bloggers and the brave victims who come forward with their painful stories. They are going to be looking for, and creating, whatever dirt they can to throw at these ‘dangerous’ people, to see what sticks.

    What seems increasingly clear is the correlation between the abuse of power and the abuse of people. It is not enough to stand up against sexual abuse – we need to tear down all of the false structures that support the abuse of any person in any manner, sexual, physical, emotional, spiritual, financial – and any other possible abuse.

    How tragic, and telling, that the so-called ‘church’ of Jesus Christ has become exactly what Jesus himself said it should not. And the secrets cannot be kept any longer, if we are all diligent.

    All who have taken a bold stand need to be prepared for attacks on their character and life. If one blog gets taken down, we need to start another. I am reminded of the brave men who lined up in the movie Ghandi, and presumably in real life, stepping forward in row after row to take their bloody beating. Sometimes, standing strong in the face of abuse is the only way to bring it to an end.

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  94. Erp: I think a key question is what is their jurisdiction and what control and oversight does the state have over this police force. A big worry would be if their jurisdiction extends beyond the boundaries of the church’s own land.

    Regardless of terrain, their jurisdiction will extend into the minds of members. What would happen if the church police caught a couple of youth group kids kissing in the parking lot? How would parents react if this were reported by someone wearing a holster? There are verses about a man controlling his family, after all.

    The church will say the force is needed for something else, but I would expect infinite mission creep.

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  95. Ken F (aka Tweed): Yes, churches need to take action to protect members from sexual abuse. However, if a church will not commit to guarding its membership and lovingly practicing discipline the Bible commands, then whatever steps it takes and however loudly it laments are little more than moral signaling and posturing.

    Right, because wayward members in need of discipline are the real problem. And guess who they often are? The very ones who have been abused; and who won’t go quietly into the night. ‘We’d love to do something about sexual abuse, but we’ve got our hands full throwing loud-mouthed troublemakers out of the church.’

    As always, it all about protecting the institution, not the people.

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  96. dee: We knew that they would attempt to call us disgruntled protestors.

    Be prepared for much worse. We’ve got your back. I just hope they don’t bring in any out of work pastors who know how to plan kiddie porn on peoples’ computers.

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  97. elastigirl: As a former Southern Baptist who was molested by my fundamentalist Sunday school teacher, I’ve been watching all this nonsense and it confirms my thesis that the purpose of making the LGBTQ issue a doctrinal circumcision mark is to have a basis for discrediting your enemies.

    elastigirl: People go after homosexuals because it is the one “sin” they may not have done. It doesn’t even make the ten commandments. How about we kick out all the practising liars, adulterers, etc?

    It has long seemed to me that the constant noise about homosexuality and abortion have always been about declaring anyone with the slightest degree of empathy as ‘the enemy’. Frankly, whatever one thinks about these issues, it is necessary to see the people first, and deal with them with hearts of love.

    I doubt that many believe Jesus approved of adultery. But did he rail against the adulteress brought before him, and chastise her for her unthinkable evil? No, he gently urged her to find a better solution to her real problems, one that would not do her more harm than good.

    Because, first and foremost, whatever ‘sin’ God is opposed to, it is because it does harm to people. He cares more about the people than the rules. This is something the legalistic Calvinists will never understand.

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  98. Jerome: “June 19, 2019
    MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) — Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey has signed legislation permitting Briarwood Presbyterian Church to establish its own police force for its church and school campuses.

    The law approved two weeks ago allows the Birmingham-based church to set-up a private law enforcement department to make arrests when crimes are committed on its properties.

    Church officials say the measure is necessary to provide adequate security for the 2,000 students and faculty on its two private school campuses.

    Randall Marshall, the executive director of the ACLU of Alabama, says the law could allow the church to cover-up criminal activity that occurs on its campuses. He expects the law to be challenged in the courts”

    This is preposterous. Talk about reestablishing Calvin’s Geneva. What happens to the people they arrest? Do they have a prison? Will they be allowed to approve a death penalty? Seriously, how can any institution have a private police force? This cannot possibly be constitutional. And if I was a member, I’d be sayin’ ‘buhbye’! Or can they arrest you for the crime of trying to abandon the church without permission?

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  99. TS00,

    I for one make a point of scrolling the comments on TWW several times. There’s always more to notice and think about, even if comments have not ended up in customs.

    Patheos recently put in a new vocab filter that has all sorts of random words, such as “job.” Over there, too, comments are stacked when originally posted, not when they are released.

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  100. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): In this interview from 2017, it appears that Ascol and Marrin are good buddies! Martin worked for Mike Huckabee, too.

    If y’all aren’t expecting a theocracy, you might be in for a shock. This blog might try to keep the politics out of religion, but in the bigger world, they are heading for realignment.

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  101. Muff Potter: Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    What they really want is their very own Sharia law, round-about, by way of their own ‘police force’.

    Can anyone even imagine what James MacDonald could have done with his own police force? He pretty much had one, between his yes-men, the boot gang and a security force but I mean, imagine him being able to arrest all of the people who complained about him? There just is no way on earth this is a good thing. I find it very frightening.

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  102. Ken F (aka Tweed): This is a very interesting statement because one can make a very good argument that Calvinism is a form of Gnosticism. Here is one of many examples: https://davidwithun.com/2010/03/24/calvinism-is-still-gnosticism/

    My very first thought.

    This is the most amazing thread of comments I have ever read. It makes me feel as if the end times are unfolding before my very eyes – and I don’t think about ‘end times’ much.

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  103. Jerome: Law finally passed authorizing TGC council member Harry Reeder’s church to set up its own police force

    Here’s an interesting tidbit. Here in the great state of South Carolina, private Security Officers have the authority to arrest on the property where they are employed to provide security, as long as the Security Officer holds certification by the State of South Carolina. SC is the only state I know of that allows this. So, if you attending a church that employs private security in SC, you had better be nice!

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  104. Nathan Priddis: I would agree, but your position is not commonly held by Christians.

    Historically, the US constitution is a product of European enlightenment thinking, at a time when there was very little religious freedom. Your religion was not your choice, it was determined by that of the local ruler – RC in France, Lutheran in some German principalities, RC in others, etc.
    The enlightenment thinkers held that freedom of conscience – of which religious freedom is but one part – consists of everyone’s free decision concerning their philosophy of life, which religion to adhere to, or not. The idea that no one should be able to force you to become a member of any one religious group, or to observe this group’s rituals, is also the basis for the strict separation of church and state: the guarantee that you can devide for yourself. The separation of church and state, long the conditio sine qua non of religious freedom, seems to have fallen out of favour with certain groups in the US.

    While I am at it, as an outside observer, allow me to say that from my vantage point a large part of the US population seems to care only for 2 parts of their constitution: freedom of religion and expression gor themselves, and the right to own and operate as many firearms as they like. In the long run, this will not be enough, even for themselves.

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  105. Erp: I think a key question is what is their jurisdiction and what control and oversight does the state have over this police force. A big worry would be if their jurisdiction extends beyond the boundaries of the church’s own land.

    I would not doubt that their authority will extend into the off-campus home of church members!

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  106. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I would not doubt that their authority will extend into the off-campus home of church members!

    As lovingly and winsomely instituted into a church covenant of love to show a deeper relationship between sheepfold and sheep? The possibilities boggle the mind: escorts by vehicle or personal protection/gofer (paid for by the lovingly sheared sheep) for the anointed and friends, a handy witness presence for said anointed et al when a potential transgression is reported (though it might not lend an air of conviviality to the aggrieved), and a host of authoritarian delights.

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  107. SiteSeer: If James MacDonald’s church had had its own police dept, I wonder how they’d have handled his desire to have someone killed?

    They’d already be his Enforcers.
    This just ups the ante to a full-on Hit.
    “GAWD SAITH!”

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  108. Brian: FLDS in southern Utah had a similar set up. By the virtue of the members of the PD were FLDS, they answered to Warren Jeffs.

    Just like “Klanaheim, Kalifornia” in the Roaring Twenties.

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  109. Brian:
    Nathan Priddis,

    The town in Washington state that was taken over by s cult has a similar ring to it.

    Antelope, Oregon, AKA “The Historic Ghost Town of Rajneeshpuram”.

    According to my Northern California contact, the Rajneeshees sent buses to knock-and-drag local homeless at least as far south as Redding to sell their numbers. Then just before the election, they poisoned several salad bars & buffets in town with Salmonella cultures — THAT’s what got them in trouble with the Feds. Bhagwan Rajneesh himself fled to India with most of the swag (where he later died of AIDS) leaving his disciples holding the bag when the Feds closed in.

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  110. TS00: Can anyone even imagine what James MacDonald could have done with his own police force? He pretty much had one, between his yes-men, the boot gang and a security force but I mean, imagine him being able to arrest all of the people who complained about him?

    “Shot while Resisting Arrest.”
    “Shot while Resisting Arrest.”
    “Shot while Resisting Arrest.”
    “Shot while Resisting Arrest.”
    “Shot while Resisting Arrest.”
    “Shot while Resisting Arrest.”
    “Shot while Resisting Arrest.”

    Code of Blue, remember: Cop will not side with not-Cop against Cop.

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  111. Guest:
    Why is it wrong if someone is protesting child rape?

    The eternal question.

    The actual answer is nothing at all, that is how everyone should be. So we have much deeper questions for those who are not protesting, or who wish to degrade or discredit those who are. It is not a good look for anyone. To put it mildly.

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  112. TS00: If y’all aren’t expecting a theocracy, you might be in for a shock. This blog might try to keep the politics out of religion, but in the bigger world, they are heading for realignment.

    Staying “Strictly Non-Political” when American Christians have become as Politicized as everything in the old USSR sounds like a setup for being blindsided by the Republic of Gilead.

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  113. Muff Potter: Like I said up thread, I’m bettin’ they want their own Sharia law.

    “But this time Us CHRISTIANS will be in charge!”

    I could see this meme coming years ago when the only Christian argument I heard against Talibani Sharia was “The Koran is the Word of Satan — We Bible IS! THE! WORD! OF GAWD!”

    Different Holy Book dictated Word-for-Word by God, Identical Attitude.

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  114. Brian: Herbert W. Armstrong, his books are still floating around in used book stores and thrift stores.

    His son Garner Ted was heavily represented in the magazine racks of the public library I haunted as a kid. Armstrong’s church (which had some really WEIRD theology and End Times Choreography) must have stocked their magazine Plain Truth in every public library in L.A.County.

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  115. Jerome: https://storylinefellowship.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Prospectus-May28-2014.pdf

    “multiplying churches’ jumps out like a ponzi scheme.

    3. Restoring Biblical Manhood and Marriage
    We believe that men are called to be the resident pastors in their homes and that wives long to see their husbands growing as shepherd.

    This phrase is giving me hives and ‘wives long to see their husbands growing as shepherds’ is probably not actually a thing, except in these guys minds. My home seems to managing just fine without a resident pastor, thanks much. Imagine thinking this is your #3 priority?

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  116. Deborah: If molesting & assaulting children and women can’t get them worked up, why make sexual orientation a deal breaker?

    Because it hits too close to home.

    HOMOSEXUALITY(TM) means a Bigger, Stronger, More Alpha an Alpha Male than me can do to me what I do to women. Make me a Penetrated Sub on the Bottom instead of a Penetrating Dom on Top.

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  117. elastigirl: jackie@jackie28434752
    People go after homosexuals because it is the one “sin” they may not have done. It doesn’t even make the ten commandments. How about we kick out all the practising liars, adulterers, etc?

    This point, why do people like James Dobson or whoever is on tv focus so much on this one issue and ignore all the liars, adulterers, greed, etc? This was a major step away from that theology for me when I was younger. Because it never made sense to focus so much on that one topic, and it made me doubt everything else they said.

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  118. Lea,

    Where, is there even an inkling in scripture of each home being called to have a resident pastor? Puleeeze – it was hard enough to escape the ones in churches. Of course, their concept of pastor/shepherd does not look anything like a Jesus sort of shepherd, but an authoritarian, ‘I’m in charge’ patriarchal pastor. Who expects his wife to ‘keep him happy’.

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  119. Lea,

    Agreed. My first step away from militant anti-homosexuality was the realization that it somehow was the only unforgivable sin. They don’t even ostracize women who have abortions, do they? Why was that? Why was homosexuality the only sin in all of creation that was so horrible, when people are abusing, oppressing and taking the lives of many in our world? Yet the (conservative) church has no problem with any of that.

    And while, of course, they dislike the sexual abuse of women in churches, it obviously pales in comparison to the need to keep them in line. Btw, the line I used to hear, if a woman was raped, she must have asked for it. Had she stayed home and played the good little wife/daughter, she would have been protected under her husband/daddy’s umbrella. Except when he is the abuser. Or the trusted pastor.

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  120. Friend – I am not aware of modern-day US incidents of physical or criminal persecution Christians. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, I’m just not aware. I was referring primarily to the rampant ostracizing and belittling and judging that goes on, often in a social context that prevents people from getting jobs, from being comfortable just walking down the street, or just having hope for a better life.

    On the other hand, what many might claim is perscution is something I would call the consequences of being obnoxious, hypocritical, or unreasonably overbearing.

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  121. Jerome: So, the Committee on Nominations chooses the nominees for the SBC Executive Committee. I’m sure it didn’t hurt that the vice chairman of the Nominations Committee was Rod Martin’s “dear friend”!

    Rod Martin certainly has the SBC theo-political system figured out. In fact, he described the process which leads to key SBC appointments at the recent Founders National Conference. For some insight into that, as well as how Martin comes across, start at 1:00 on the following video (also provides his thoughts on women in SBC leadership): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te7txIuHhoo

    Note: this is a video of a panel discussion on “The Gospel and Social Justice.” Panel members were Founders’ who’s-who, including Tom Ascol, Tom Nettles, Rod Martin, Fred Malone, Tom Hicks and Jared Longshore.

    A look at SBC’s future?

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  122. Lea: This point, why do people like James Dobson or whoever is on tv focus so much on this one issue and ignore all the liars, adulterers, greed, etc?

    Because it’s better for business?

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  123. Lea: This phrase is giving me hives and ‘wives long to see their husbands growing as shepherds’ is probably not actually a thing,

    Reminds me of the Piper video where he instructs wives to take abuse from their husbands for a season. And when she talks to him about trying to lead her into sin, one of the example phrases Piper gives for her to use is: “I long for your leadership.”

    That phrase made me roll my eyes back then just like this one does now. But to them, it seems perfectly natural to tell women how they should feel and what they should think about the husband’s ‘divine’ leadership position. It’s not enough to submit. Piper instructs ‘joyful’ submission from wives.

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  124. TS00: Agreed. My first step away from militant anti-homosexuality was the realization that it somehow was the only unforgivable sin. They don’t even ostracize women who have abortions, do they? Why was that? Why was homosexuality the only sin in all of creation that was so horrible, when people are abusing, oppressing and taking the lives of many in our world? Yet the (conservative) church has no problem with any of that.

    I think a lot of it hinges on the fact that gay sex is easy to hate because of the almost universal revulsion straight people feel at the thought of it.

    From there, the haters capitalize on it and use its momentum to try and attain their goal of winning hearts and minds in the culture wars.

    A good analogy would be the use of napalm and agent orange in Vietnam.

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  125. elastigirl: People go after homosexuals because it is the one “sin” they may not have done.

    Remember:
    The Unpardonable Sin is ALWAYS the other guy’s sin, NEVER my own.

    “If I can’t be better than a [fill in the blank], who do I got to be better than?”
    — spoken by the guy second from the bottom

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  126. Dee:
    Is this the same group – this is from a site called Founders:

    Which is the most pressing issue in the SBC today? Sexual abuse or the Bible’s teaching about manhood
    https://founders.org/2019/06/19/which-is-the-most-pressing-issue-in-the-sbc-today-sexual-abuse-or-the-bibles-teaching-about-manhood/?fbclid=IwAR0BEXoR3aKdxNqFeQ7q0YZO84GmpgyJmhJW6OtIgkJUGqkzdc1dmzGmezE

    Snippet from that page:

    First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse. A man who abuses his wife and/or children is not a biblical man at all. In a culture that conflates manhood and womanhood, we need to recover and teach the true nature of biblical manhood.

    …Second, Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.

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  127. Re that Founder guy’s quote that I just quoted above:

    “First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse. A man who abuses his wife and/or children is not a biblical man at all.”

    Well, not all the abuse of men is against their own family. Some Christian men are physically / spiritually or sexually abusing NON-family members.

    Even if the person they are abusing is a family member, a complementarian doofus will simply scold the target and lecture her to “forgive” the guy, and to stay and “submit more” for him, to “pray” for her abuser – complementarians will not actually sanction or reprimand the abuser at all.

    The “complementarian” solution is always as follows: victim is expected to just stay and put up with any and all abuse.

    So no, doubling down on complementarianism is not going to solve or fix the abuse going on in the church.

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  128. Daisy: First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse. A man who abuses his wife and/or children is not a biblical man at all. In a culture that conflates manhood and womanhood, we need to recover and teach the true nature of biblical manhood.

    If “Biblical Manhood” is the solution to the abuse problem, then none of these guys are Biblical men. None of them have handled this problem properly, however far you want to go back up to this date, and it’s only the Houston Chronicle that has forced them to even start pretending they want to solve it. So huge FAIL for “Biblical manhood”.

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  129. Shirley Myers:
    Until I began reading Wartburg Watch, I had no idea who all these guys were.I now read regularly because I want to know what is happening in this part of “The Church.”Even using the term “The Church” makes me sad because it is nothing like what Jesus had intended us to be experiencing. All I have to do (and I don’t have a “Rev. Dr.” title, or other puffy title) is to hold up what I am learning about these people, and their “walk and talk” – next to the Fruits of the Holy Spirit – “love, joy, peace….” and to remember other Scriptures that guide us to think and talk about ” whatsoever things are true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, and of good report..”I have a simple solution: Have these people take an unpaid 2 year“sabbatical” not to write a money-making book, but to work. They pay for their own housing, medical, gas, books, and workshops, get up early and put in a full 8-10 hour day with no trips home, or to the gym, or to other places the rest of us pew-sitters can’t do during the day, and learn what it is to work under someone else’s supervision “as unto the Lord.” Work Monday-Friday. Use Saturday for the family/personal/catch up day, and go to church on Sunday.Get up on Monday and start all over again. Work under someone else’s authority, learn humility and develop a servant- heart. Honestly examine egotism, pride-fulness, condescension, and feelings of entitlement.

    But what about their ‘anointing’ and their special “vision” that they cast? (And just trust them on both of those, as they wouldn’t steer you wrong.) How dare you suggest they be as servants…

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  130. OutThere: Christians in the US who forecast persecution should expect to see it come from only one place – other Christians, specifically from Christians in powerful positions. Separation of Church and State came about for just this reason, one Christian group was persecuting a less powerful Christian group.

    Some things never change.

    It’s the truth. And the so-called “liberal” Christians aren’t persecuting anyone, so…

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  131. Nathan Priddis: I would agree, but your position is not commonly held by Christians.

    I’m curious how you arrived at this conclusion.

    Jesus said, “an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.” It always seems to be the religious who do the persecuting. The guy down the street who doesn’t believe in God could care less what you believe or do, as long as you aren’t hurting anyone.

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  132. Friend/Nancy2 I certainly don’t trust the church having a police force under their control. I note Brigham Young University has one and it is quite notorious for getting info on rape victims (who may have reported the crime to the regular police force but interagency allows the BYU police to get the info) who are BYU students and handing it over the the university which then may kick out or otherwise penalize the victim for violating the university honor code. My own local university also has a police force but there is a fair bit of oversight by the county sheriff’s department (the county sheriff has to ok who becomes a university police officer, can yank that ok at any time [or even yank recognition of everyone thereby disbanding the university force], has a couple of people including the person responsible for recording bookings report to him not the university [they are on the sheriff’s payroll not the university]). Jurisdiction is limited to the campus lands or hot pursuit. All judicial stuff goes through the regular courts; parking fines, etc. go to the county. California also has much higher standards for police officers than Alabama and I’m fairly certain the university is careful who it hires (at least now, apparently when the hired a new police chief back circa 1970 the first thing he did was disarm all his officers until they had undergone proper training in using a gun). The university does seem to be abiding by the Clery act and reporting many types of crimes to the public. I somehow doubt this church’s force will have a similar oversight.

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  133. Daisy:
    Dee:
    Is this the same group – this is from a site called Founders:

    Which is the most pressing issue in the SBC today? Sexual abuse or the Bible’s teaching about manhood
    https://founders.org/2019/06/19/which-is-the-most-pressing-issue-in-the-sbc-today-sexual-abuse-or-the-bibles-teaching-about-manhood/?fbclid=IwAR0BEXoR3aKdxNqFeQ7q0YZO84GmpgyJmhJW6OtIgkJUGqkzdc1dmzGmezE
    Snippet from that page:

    First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse. A man who abuses his wife and/or children is not a biblical man at all. In a culture that conflates manhood and womanhood, we need to recover and teach the true nature of biblical manhood.

    …Second, Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.

    What a tell on the agenda. It looks so much like a labored, strawman-laden attempt to flail at those who might not hold the same doctrinal tenets (not that they’re evincing willingness to have a cards-on-table discussion about that) by labeling them as errant and thus undermining all of their claims and priorities.

    This ties so well with what the doc interview dog and pony show was aiming to accomplish. They know they don’t have to definitively show themselves to be on the side of truth. Rather, all they need to do is marginalize anyone threatening their narrative and their power to shape it in an unfettered manner (the latter is critical). One way this can be accomplished is to make the threats to their power look like a “them” as opposed to part of the “us” to enough people as to boost the power of the narrative shapers to defend the “us”.

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  134. Lea: elastigirl: jackie@jackie28434752
    People go after homosexuals because it is the one “sin” they may not have done. It doesn’t even make the ten commandments. How about we kick out all the practising liars, adulterers, etc?

    This point, why do people like James Dobson or whoever is on tv focus so much on this one issue and ignore all the liars, adulterers, greed, etc? This was a major step away from that theology for me when I was younger. Because it never made sense to focus so much on that one topic, and it made me doubt everything else they said.

    So interesting that Dobson’s co-founder of the Family Research Council, George Alan Reker, proponent of conversion therapy, turned out to be secretly gay, hiring male escorts from “rentboy.”

    I had a conversation once with a very anti-gay Christian and he could not give me any reason that other people being gay was any threat to him or how it had any effect on what he believed or practiced himself. He finally said, well, they are trying to proselytize children in schools into the gay lifestyle. I don’t think trying to teach people to accept each other is proselytizing. I just think Christians have been hearing this anti-gay stuff for so long, they feel threatened and don’t even know why.

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  135. SiteSeer,

    “I just think Christians have been hearing this anti-gay stuff for so long, they feel threatened and don’t even know why.”
    +++++++++++++++

    “The sky is falling! The sky is falling!”, exclaimed Chicken Little.

    there’s not a lot of critical thinking going on in christian culture, let alone the powers of reason.

    and there’s a ton of manipulation.

    one reason i’m a done and a none: christian culture is just too embarrassingly stupid. let alone corrupt.

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  136. The strawmen floated in the Founders article appear to work toward the end of creating the brave neo “us” and the unbiblical “them:

    https://founders.org/2019/06/19/which-is-the-most-pressing-issue-in-the-sbc-today-sexual-abuse-or-the-bibles-teaching-about-manhood/?fbclid=IwAR0BEXoR3aKdxNqFeQ7q0YZO84GmpgyJmhJW6OtIgkJUGqkzdc1dmzGmezE

    “First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse.”

    So, guess we can’t focus on abuse itself — the towering inferno that the powers that be too often treat with less vigor than a T4G breakout session workshop. Let’s somehow via some convoluted logic act like ‘biblical manhood’ is just as pressing an issue and one that can be attached like a leech to take attention and focus from the abuse issue!

    Are you kidding me with this tangential flail? What does a grievous wolf from Acts 20 or the thief from John 10 care about Biblical anything except to either disobey it or manipulate it deceptively to their own ends? And where does a discussion of that issue become remotely relevant when the problem of the rampant abuse is compounded by the blind eyes, proof-texting hackery, and the passing of the buck endemic in so many abuse situations coming to light?

    “Second, Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.”

    And many in the secular media and those opposed to Christianity have also leveraged what’s been coming out to bolster assertions or promote an agenda. Newsflash: people push their own agendas. However, if we were in a sane courtroom, an objection due to irrelevance would be sustained.

    Guess what, “Founders”? If professed Christians and their institutions are inextricably linked to the abuses by the manifest fails listed above, that’s going to serve the agenda of those opposed to Christianity because of the evil and the hypocrisy. As long as we’re getting Biblical, how about this verse: “As it has been written: “For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you”” (Romans 2:24).

    How about allowing appropriate focus on the issue that is laying waste to innocent lives of victims and those close to them? If that’s not enough, shouldn’t the motive of cleaning up the impurities of a denomination your own writings indicate you’re seeking to seal the deal on acquiring — assets and all — be enough? Think of the brand!

    Biblically manning up by definition involves looking out for the little ones and the oppressed. I know it’s not as straightforward as talking amongst yourselves about doling out top-down authority or as neat as conducting gotchas on those at abuse rallies kicked to the SBC curb — apparently ‘cuz narrative, but it sure is Biblical.

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  137. “This is why in our current cultural environment, we need to address both sexual abuse as well as biblical manhood and womanhood at the same time, though it is highly counter-cultural to do so. The two issues are inextricably linked.”

    Notice the “lump these two things together — inextricably ‘cuz culture, and admire us for being counter-cultural” spotlight wresting.

    Let’s use some of the incidents that have been highlighted on this blog to see if the issues as reported are as inextricably linked in a meaningful enough way to merit this conflation.

    Andy Savage — adult who physically dwarfs a teen drives her out to an abandoned location and makes his move. Begs her to keep silent. Moves from place to place in paid church leadership for years without let or hindrance; gives relationship advice and writes book on same. When news breaks, standing ovations and “you are worthy” occur rather than timely appropriate action from church leaderships (sic) involved.

    Bill Hybels — involves those under the pastoral purview with procuring videos and or watching them with him for so-called research; ambien handsiness, other things invoking power dynamics and what appears to be grooming behavior.

    Tom Chantry — convicted child molester, yet the number of people who came to his defense and persisted was stunning, and the efforts to secure the convictions were daunting.

    Nathan Morales (and who knows how many others) — convicted child molesters at a church that reportedly not only failed to act appropriately but advised reconciliation between a 15-year old and a girl he abused when she was three, citing an evidently twisted take on 1 Cor. 6.

    The SBC’s Judge Paul Pressler — multiple lawsuits filed and reported financial settlements regarding abuse of young males. Called the worst kept secret, yet dodged accountability long enough to be on stained glass.

    ‘Uncle Raggy’ Ragsdale — Methodist youth pastor on tape acknowledging abuse of 10-year old, later claiming in interview that the 10-year old that he dwarfed in size and age was actually the perp.

    Tom Randall and indigenous mission personnel — charges of abuse at an orphanage as well as inappropriate touching of young female by Tom. Questionable reaction and investigation by church leaders (sic)

    Larry Nassar — throwing him in here too to see how Biblical manhood would have factored into a better outcome in this secular setting

    So…

    WHAT DOES ‘BIBLICAL MANHOOD’ HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS?!?!?

    We have case after case after case of inappropriate action that traumatized victims. We have abusers using the power structure, wretchedly inappropriate proof-texting, and the passage of time to shield themselves from consequences. We have case after case where the chain of authority — often a cul-de-sac of coverup rather than involving the proper authorities — failed the victims and was often complicit in extending the problem and further traumatizing the victims and trusting them like the ones in the wrong.

    We have clear answers to start addressing this: oversight, accountability, and involving the appropriate civil authorities right off the bat. Biblical manhood is about as relevant as fighting tooth decay as it factors into what needs addressing. That it is being pitched otherwise is disturbingly inappropriate — which in itself shows why so many responses from real and imagined powers that be in professed Christian circles are part of the problem that needs massive amounts of attention and action. Enough with amateur hour on this critical issue.

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  138. “Churches need to understand what abuse is and that instances of abuse must be reported to the civil authorities and abusers should be disciplined by the church. Sadly, I am not aware of any significant emphasis on church discipline at this year’s convention.”

    Last part first: what a shock that the “Founders” lament the lack of whip-cracking being a centerpiece of the SBC narrative push, just like the 9 Marks and Acts 29 parachurchers. Without it, how are the sheep going to submit themselves to shearing off a gross income figure based on a OT/Mosaic law proscription? And like those orgs, anyone think that the discipline extends to horizontal or down-top Galatians 2 type discipline and oversight?

    Also, what denominational focus on discipline is needed for the examples listed above of abusers? You render unto Caesar, you strip all power and $$$ from them, you defer to safety and legal protocols as far as access, you get the word out on the transgressor (Paul certainly didn’t keep a secret when it came to addressing what was going on in Corinth), and you go from there. Read Romans 13 for help on the Biblical side. Here’s another tip: go to a public school and to a secular corporation and get their best practices. Start there; maybe seeing who actually needs to have authority and conduct discipline in these situations will prove useful.

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  139. Shirley Myers,

    Shirley Myers: Work Monday-Friday. Use Saturday for the family/personal/catch up day, and go to church on Sunday. Get up on Monday and start all over again. Work under someone else’s authority, learn humility and develop a servant- heart. Honestly examine egotism, pride-fulness, condescension, and feelings of entitlement. It is good to work in what Jesus called “the vineyard” – and what is the “church beyond church walls.” It is a powerful opportunity for personal spiritual growth, growing in love for others, and learning how to converse and appreciate friendships with others who have different backgrounds and whose choices are different than our own.

    My daughters and I have had discussions concerning how everyone ought to spend time waiting tables. Everyone. Whatever a person’s goal, from CEO to factory worker. A job in service is an amazing learning experience. It gives you empathy for servers and teaches about tipping.

    I have a coworker who performed janitorial duties somewhere and she says the same thing about being a janitor. She said she learned so much. She is convinced that doing janitorial work would be a good experience for anyone, again, no matter what their future goals are.

    I’ve thought that the best leadership programs should include stints in these and related areas to broaden people’s understanding and empathy. My oldest daughter is getting her masters and my youngest her bachelors. But they will take the lessons learn in service with them wherever they go.

    It would be cool if there was an actual program for leadership in the church (or any leadership program) that included true service experience. Waiting tables, Nursing Home work, Retail, Janitorial, etc.

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  140. JDV: WHAT DOES ‘BIBLICAL MANHOOD’ HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS?!?!?

    I was on a blog, back in the day. I think it was sponsored by CBE. Some Patriarchalist came in trying to set us straight. He wasn’t like JACP. He seemed truly sincere in his concern for the abused. He didn’t display the issues that you see with actual abusers trying to be all religious.

    Anyway, this guy was convinced that healing was in the doctrine of divine order of the family as defined by these people. Men taking their proper places in the home and church was the silver bullet that would solve everything.

    I know. so what.
    I only bring it up to lament along with you on how entrenched this teaching is. The true believers are so completely devoted to Biblical Manhood and cannot see that the doctrine is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Trying to get them to let go of the doctrine as part of a solution is like trying to tell a Christian that Jesus dying on the cross has nothing to do with saving your soul.

    It is both sad and maddening.

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  141. Jerome: What divides Southern Baptists are those who hold to an orthodox understanding of the Gospel as opposed to progressives who promote ethnic Gnosticism and the ‘tearing down of all hierarchy’ to empower feminism in the church.

    Ethnic Gnosticism????

    And I fully support the tearing down of much hierarchy, and all the hierarchy that puts women at the very bottom and treats them like dirt, so thanks for laying out quite clearly why my decision to leave the SBC was 100% on point.

    I actually agree that some of this traditionalism is what divides SBC from other denoms…although I still don’t get why the hierarchy, reformed loving SBC folks who don’t like congregationalism don’t just join the presbys (although they’d have to join the conservative ones I guess).

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  142. JDV: the “Founders” lament the lack of whip-cracking being a centerpiece of the SBC narrative push

    Indeed, they fault “Arminianism” within SBC with a lack of proper discipline in its churches. When Founders Ministries was established, they felt that there was “… a quasi Evangelical Arminianism which had the effect of creating an undisciplined church membership, a great ignorance about what doctrine was … a recovery of the doctrines of grace would do much to remedy that …” (Tom Nettles)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te7txIuHhoo

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  143. elastigirl: many others are exploiting the gay community, this devastatedly rejected & hurting people group, in order to get power for themselves.

    it makes me sick. It should make everyone sick.

    Absolutely agree. I have heard so many stories from people who rejected in very personal ways by their churches because of their orientation and they’ve made an impression on me. I can’t see anything of love in it.

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  144. elastigirl: –focusing on gay sex shifts the spotlight away from their own sin and shines it on the gay community instead.
    –this gives these Christians a feeling of relief, of control and superiority, soothing their feelings of guilt, insecurity and failure

    This is exactly what they are doing re-focusing from abuse to demonizing feminism/promoting supposed ‘biblical manhood’.

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  145. Mara,

    Excellent insight.

    Forty five years ago, my husband and myself were given pre marital counseling that of course included,this * correct* position. It didn’t work for us and led to conflict in our marriage. I was never a girly girl, didn’t sew, bake, blah, blah, was never naturally inclined to, women stuff. Nor, was my husband inclined to running a household in which he oversaw daily routines. Anyway, we ditched the concept and settled in on emphasizing respect, friendship, natural talents, etc.

    How many couples, but especially women, have been smothered, eclipsed and sadly some abused, by this false doctrine of, * the Biblical family * we will never know. There are no prescribed *roles* for everybody. One size fits all is ridiculous dogma. God didn’t/doesn’t create us all to fulfill prescribed male/female positions like a bunch of robots.

    Biblical manhood, so needs to be thrown into the fire. Loving one another, respecting differences, being allies to each other, being friends, emulates how we are to live for the Lord, how we can live with our partners and family in harmony, not in bondage.

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  146. Lea: demonizing feminism

    It’s beginning to look like “biblical” men demonize anything that comes from the mouth of a woman! If a female believer dares to speak a word against the patriarchy and its various abuses to manipulate, intimidate and dominate half of the citizens of God’s Kingdom, she is branded a feminist.

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  147. OutThere: Anyway, my point was that the ones in power, the Christian leaders and friends who often cry “persecution,” are often the real persecutors.

    Agree with your point, and personally I try not to use the term to describe religious disputes in the US. In my opinion, we cheapen the suffering of Christians in North Korea when we equate their plight with the scandalous sight of a woman’s knees.

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  148. JDV: Let’s somehow via some convoluted logic act like ‘biblical manhood’ is just as pressing an issue and one that can be attached like a leech to take attention and focus from the abuse issue!

    When all you have is a hammer…

    They accuse abuse survivors of using this as ‘leverage’ for ‘feminism’ because any real solution to abuse would take some of the power away from these men and they can’t have that. So they come up with a ‘solution’ which has no chance of working but leaves them with all the power.

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  149. Mara: Men taking their proper places in the home and church was the silver bullet that would solve everything.

    People who think like this have a very poor sense of history. They think mistreatment and abuse are NEW. They are not. Why do they think people have fought so hard for change?

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  150. Mae: God didn’t/doesn’t create us all to fulfill prescribed male/female positions like a bunch of robots.

    If I were created solely to be submissive, cook clean and do housework, and never have an opinion about anything or contradict men, would that not come naturally?

    I think God made us all as we are. The very idea that we have to try to contort ourselves to fit some sort of box tells us that it is made by man, not God. We are fearfully and wonderfully made and these men better back off trying to control That.

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  151. Jerome: There was talk of running Ascol to knock off Greear this year

    Wow, that would have been fun to watch on the convention floor … Old Calvinism vs. New Calvinism! Suits vs. jeans! KJV vs. ESV!!

    Hmmmm … I wonder how Al Mohler would have voted? He’s stuck between two worlds.

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  152. Lea: If I were created solely to be submissive, cook clean and do housework, and never have an opinion about anything or contradict men, would that not come naturally?

    I think God made us all as we are. The very idea that we have to try to contort ourselves to fit some sort of box tells us that it is made by man, not God. We are fearfully and wonderfully made and these men better back off trying to control That.

    That’s exactly their argument, though. So by not being perfectly submissive, we are clearly not “saved by the Gospel”. And if we’re not elected, then we must be secular feminists. They believe since they have such a strong desire to tell everybody else what to do, that must be from God, too, and it must also mean that God made people for them to order around.

    What they really are is sinful, prideful men who aren’t following God, but themselves.

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  153. ishy: That’s exactly their argument, though. So by not being perfectly submissive, we are clearly not “saved by the Gospel”.

    I mean… a lot of their arguments are really stupid and illogical so that doesn’t surprise me.

    The point is, they think this is gods design for everyone, but clearly everyone doesn’t fall out that way. So…they think god made mistakes on purpose? Do they think god only designed the ‘elect’ to be this way? I don’t think they have thought this through.

    If they didn’t hate feminists so much they might actually listen to what the discussion about toxic masculinity is *really* about and wonder about socialization and culture verses innate qualities and the tension there. They add to it by telling men to be dictatorial mean people in their everyday relationships.

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  154. SiteSeer: He finally said, well, they are trying to proselytize children in schools into the gay lifestyle.

    i.e. “THEY’RE AFTER *YOUR* CHILDREN!!!!!”

    Not that much different from the Klan’s “THEY’RE AFTER OUR WHITE WOMEN!!!!!!” is it?

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  155. Friend: Can I just ask something obvious? At the rally, who showed up with a microphone, camera, and an intention to make a documentary?

    HA!! good one Friend!
    Also, how many queer folk organizations sponsor ‘conversion therapy’ to try and get straight people to change their orientation?

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  156. Lea,

    “I have heard so many stories from people who rejected in very personal ways by their churches because of their orientation and they’ve made an impression on me. ”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    They are often rejected by their families. Compound that with being told that God rejects them.

    I liken it to rejection for being left-handed, and the experience of being denied the right to use the hand that works, and being hated and rejected from here to eternity for it.

    I give christian culture an “F” for FAILURE and freely make the sign of an “L” for LOSER. This is worthy me being candid and not holding back.
    ————————

    The link below is to a newstory about a dad who was moved to show love to this group of people. Love, with no agenda, no strings attached.

    In his own words, and the words of the article and an article from CBS:

    “My first thought was well if you had a hundred moms and a hundred dads presented with a child that identified with this population, my thought was that the moms overall would likely be more accepting so possibly dad hugs could be even more needed.”

    …he didn’t expect the emotional embraces some people gave him or how his story would touch so many people.

    Dittman says that as he stood along the parade route a woman ran from across the street with tears in her eyes and hugged him while thanking him profusely.

    “She had tears welled up in her eyes and she was just staring at me,” said Dittman. “She just wrapped her arms around me and she didn’t let go — and I wasn’t going to let go.”

    Dittman said in a Facebook post that another young man embraced him and sobbed into his arms. The man had been kicked out at age 19 and hadn’t spoken to his parents since.

    Dittman said he gave out hundreds of hugs at the parade, some of them “super happy” and others less so.

    “Imagine that your child feels SO LOST FROM YOU that they sink into the arms of a complete stranger and sob endlessly just because that stranger is wearing a shirt offering hugs from a dad. Think of the depths of their pain. Try to imagine how deep those cuts must be.”

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/17/us/pittsburgh-free-dad-hugs-trnd/index.html

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  157. JDV: But what about their ‘anointing’ and their special “vision” that they cast?

    You mean their Illumination into the Inner Ring and their accompanying special Occult Gnosis?

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  158. SiteSeer: Jesus said, “an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.”

    “Think” or “KNOW”?
    Because the latter is what really brings Unshakable FAITH in My Righteousness, aka Invincible Ignorance.

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  159. Lea: When all you have is a hammer…

    They accuse abuse survivors of using this as ‘leverage’ for ‘feminism’ because any real solution to abuse would take some of the power away from these men and they can’t have that. So they come up with a ‘solution’ which has no chance of working but leaves them with all the power.

    Priorities

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  160. SiteSeer: Yet a number of the most vocally anti-gay have turned out to be closet gays themselves.

    One of the dynamics of this is “self-medication in secret”, sort of a psych version of the Dry’s “secret sip”.

    Think about it. Here they are, with an orientation that is their Christianese culture’s BIGGEST, Strongest Taboo. Not only will they have to hide it (where it can ferment and break out uncontrollably), they have to keep hammering it down by preaching against it. Louder and LOUDER and LOUDER!!!!! to keep it hammered down. (Until one day it all bursts out and everything blows sky-high.)

    Think of Rush Limbaugh, Number-One Fan of the War on Drugs while dealing with a secret Oxycontin addiction. (Got hooked on the synthetic opiate “pain pills” while recovering from major surgery, a not unusual phenomenon.)

    Especially when the guy’s in a High Position and/or Celebrity Famous. Especially when the guy has a “My Way or the Highway” autocratic reputation. And has probably made lots of enemies, trampled on the climb up, punched in the nose, and thrown under the bus.

    And adding GAWD(TM) to the mix supercharges everything to (Literally) COSMIC IMPORTANCE.

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  161. elastigirl: “Imagine that your child feels SO LOST FROM YOU that they sink into the arms of a complete stranger and sob endlessly just because that stranger is wearing a shirt offering hugs from a dad. Think of the depths of their pain. Try to imagine how deep those cuts must be.”

    I have seen this before and but it gets me.

    I didn’t mention family because I was thinking about the church side of things and I’ve heard several first hand accounts on that front from friends and acquaintances. I think we intuitively understand (most of us anyway) how much this family rejection hurts, but rejection from church can be a similar trauma. Our body treats rejection as real pain, as it does physical wounds.

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  162. Lea: although I still don’t get why the hierarchy, reformed loving SBC folks who don’t like congregationalism don’t just join the presbys (although they’d have to join the conservative ones I guess).

    I think they’re fine joining philosophically through parachurch groups and conferences that help each other sell books and look like they’re the vanguard and gatekeepers of all things Christian.

    However, the hirelings and their grievous wolf counterparts can’t take ground as far as paying gigs, churches (including building projects and other tangible assets), sops for pals and supporters in the authority pyramid nearly as readily in the Presbyterian wheel house as they can in the SBC, where they can see pieces of the diminishing pie still available for carving. Priorities, don’t you know.

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  163. Lea: The point is, they think this is gods design for everyone, but clearly everyone doesn’t fall out that way. So…they think god made mistakes on purpose? Do they think god only designed the ‘elect’ to be this way? I don’t think they have thought this through.

    They get super complicated on that point, but like you said, that pesky logic stuff is not their cup of tea. Basically, they say that God knows who He will regenerate, but He doesn’t regenerate them until He decides during their lives.

    And if you don’t agree, then again, you are unregenerate and “don’t understand”.

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  164. __

    Simple SBC 501c3 Church Minds : “New Golden Unity Dream, Perhaps?

    hmmm…

    Illustrious Doctor Albert Mohler has a new game plan in store to hoodwink traditionalists in the SBC to forget their theological differences and team up with his Calvinists to prevent women and rainbows from entering the SBC pulpit…
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GWAC4UeWGd0

    Trade the gospel of Jesus Christ for proverbial perceived ‘social’ security?

    Quicksand?

    Mohler’s, he is your friend until the unity ocean breaks?

    bump.

    “Burning theological barriers and promoting a unity ecstasy,
    Crashing pulpit pounding into a fantasy,
    Dreamin’ the unity dream while the 501c3 church takes a beating, and goes crashing into the false gospel sea,
    Along the way…”

    Simple 501c3 church minds won’t know what hit them?

    Krunch!

    Into the crashing of the ‘unity’ sea?

    hmmm…

    Could b. ;~)§

    ////

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  165. ishy,

    According to Genesis, the core si. Is trying to be like “G$d”….. not just the Neo-Calvanist, but other ““flavors” of Christianity, and other religions claim they have “the Truth” and the “true way”….. The longer I live the more I realize I do not understand things…. many scientist say the same thing ( despite the “arrogant” label that many people give scientists)…
    p.S…. I might add that in the circles I am in, I have always had my “limits” made apparent to me!

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  166. SiteSeer,

    Here in Colorado the Legislature tried to push a bill that would include homosexual sex as part of school sex education, including homeschooling. They got such d huge push back that it was delayed. They held a hear, people lined up past midnight that still didn’t get a chance to speak. Then the Legislature ran it through both houses anyway.

    So, in some places it is a thinly vailed attempt at indoctrination.

    That doesn’t mean that everyone hates those in the homosexual lifestyle.

    And it also means that not all homeschooling parents out here are Voddie Baucham fans.

    As my pastor puts it when we went through the Sermon on the Mount, it’s a sin, but you don’t turn anyone away who identifies as gay. It’s The Holy Spirit who is to convict us, not others. 🙂

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  167. Brian: Here in Colorado the Legislature tried to push a bill that would include homosexual sex as part of school sex education, including homeschooling.

    Eh, if you are educating teenagers on sex and safety, you should educate them fully. Leaving out stuff will just leave people unprotected.

    The sex education messages I received from church back in the 80’s were not helpful and were mostly inaccurate. Education that includes different types of sex is not indoctrination. And some of those homeschool kids will be gay and have to seek out education on their own.

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  168. Beth74: I’m KJV and I am definitely not a Calvinist, old or new.

    Hi Beth. I’m a KJV, too … but not a KJV-only. The “sword” I have carried for the last 40 years is a KJV Thompson Chain Reference Bible, but I have most other versions in my library.

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  169. Brian: Here in Colorado the Legislature tried to push a bill that would include homosexual sex as part of school sex education, including homeschooling. They got such d huge push back that it was delayed. They held a hear, people lined up past midnight that still didn’t get a chance to speak. Then the Legislature ran it through both houses anyway.

    So, in some places it is a thinly vailed attempt at indoctrination.

    What do you mean by indoctrination? Are they teaching children that everyone should try this lifestyle?

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  170. Former Colorado dweller here, and it was an attempt at indoctrination.

    Many homeschool out there due to abysmal schools. Not for religious reasons at all. And many of those want to decide, as parents, what to teach re sex ed and when for themselves. One person might want all six year olds to know all about gay sex. Another might want their kids simply to understand good touch bad touch and some basics at that age. Parental choice.

    What I saw proposed basically was aimed at removing all stigma from gay sex. Not teaching the kids to be accepting of all people but to be accepting of all ways of having sex. And many parents, both religious and non religious, do NOT WANT the state dictating what they teach their own children regarding morals and ethics.

    We moved and I have no idea what the law there is now, but I would bet quickly that if parents object to whatever passed they will simply not comply.

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  171. SiteSeer,

    Here in Colorado religious and nonreligious both didn’t want this taught to their kids and see it as indoctrination.

    If your trying to teach your kids the acts of same sex is wrong and then it’s mandated in school, that’s indoctrination.

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  172. Lea,

    Homosexuality is wrong, is a sin:

    Matt 19:4-6
    I For 6:9-10

    So for Christian parents, teaching this in school would be teaching sin.

    That’s not be hateful. You did a broadbrush approach of only NeoCals consider this a sin and “same sex” sex education isn’t forcing of someone’s views.

    I have no I’ll will or hate for anyone in the same sex lifestyle. I do hope they come to Christ and get into His word. The Holy Spirit is to guide, not me. But if someone ask my view on it I’ll tell them that it’s wrong. That doesn’t mean I don’t love them.

    I John 4:7,12

    🙂

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  173. Brian: So for Christian parents, teaching this in school would be teaching sin.

    As a Christian parent, I have a somewhat different experience of this, but I’m not in Colorado and have not seen the proposal. I respect your view and others’.

    Many school districts let parents opt their students out, or opt them in, when sex education units are coming up. Our school is vigilant in notifying parents in advance and letting them preview materials. That allows parents to teach the (im)morality of the material, or keep their student away from hearing it.

    I found our school materials reassuring on all topics (sex, alcohol, etc.). Not “do this” or “this is right,” but “this is something you might encounter at some point.” The alcohol section taught young teens to be alert to the possibility of being offered booze, and offered strategies to ease out of various situations. As a rather naive teetotaler, I was grateful that somebody else supplemented my teachings.

    I don’t think our local materials indoctrinated. If anything, I think they preserved innocence a bit longer by helping kids understand what they were seeing, and not do something they figured out only afterward, when it was too late.

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  174. Brian: Homosexuality is wrong, is a sin:

    I’m not interested in getting into this discussion atm, certainly there are plenty of christians who disagree on this, but i will note that we don’t actually live in a theocracy, so that shouldn’t affect what children are taught in school as far as health goes.

    Brian: You did a broadbrush approach of only NeoCals consider this a sin and “same sex” sex education isn’t forcing of someone’s views.

    I don’t know what you’re talking about here, because I didn’t really say that.

    However, not to get too graphic, but if you are going to do proper sex ed, you need to cover everything, not just missionary, for All orientations, because there is some overlap. You’re not being very specific here about what exactly is being taught, but people need to know real information for the purposes of health.

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  175. JDV: WHAT DOES ‘BIBLICAL MANHOOD’ HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS?!?!?

    In the real world, when a man harasses, gropes, or rapes a person, he will usually face trials, jail time, etc.

    (The secular world doesn’t always get it right, but they at least recognize this behavior is wrong, immoral, illegal, and they will sometimes do something about it).

    We do have a problem with men getting away with poor / sexist behavior in society due to secular views, biases, and the “boys will be boys” rhetoric.

    But. I’ve yet to see secular culture say one possible solution in curtailing or halting male violence against others is “biblical manhood” or “complementarianism.”

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  176. Daisy: But. I’ve yet to see secular culture say one possible solution in curtailing or halting male violence against others is “biblical manhood” or “complementarianism.”

    I wanted to add that complementarianism has not helped abuse victims or caused Christian men to act better within the churches where comp is taught and accepted…
    Yet they seem to think it may work to save culture in general.

    One would think these people would be teaching that it’s a devotion to Jesus Christ that “fixes” people and makes them better, not adherence to complementarian gender roles.

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  177. JDV: WHAT DOES ‘BIBLICAL MANHOOD’ HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS?!?!?

    And what does it even mean? “Biblical” manhood could include killing one’s brother, marrying multiple women, marrying one’s sister, lying, stealing, selling one’s brother into slavery, having an affair and killing the husband to hide the evidence, giving false prophesies, lying to the Holy Spirit, stoning Christians, and all kinds of other things that we would not call “godly.” “Biblical manhood” is a useless term that describes nothing. But it is apparently useful for shutting down dialogue.

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  178. Ken F (aka Tweed): And what does it even mean? “Biblical” manhood

    Well, you see, the new reformers first started pushing “manhood” as a way to exercise more control over church wimmenfolk – to manipulate, intimidate and dominate the spiritual life out of them. They then attached “Biblical” to their madness to make it appear legitimate.

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  179. Brian,

    Why focus on homosexuality when so many hetero people can’t keep it in their pants?

    Some married (hetero) Christians have even been caught using adultery site Ashley Madison or using prostitutes.

    The attitude I see most often from Christians and Christian pastors in the area of -hetero- sexual sin is, “Eh, no big deal, everyone does it, let’s just let it go.”

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  180. Friend,

    “I found our school materials reassuring on all topics”
    +++++++++++++++++

    i agree. At our public schools, the information presented is simply “this is what it is; this is what can happen. this is how you avoid unintended consequences.” Abstinence is very part of the discussion.

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  181. Lea,

    “I think we intuitively understand (most of us anyway) how much this family rejection hurts, but rejection from church can be a similar trauma. Our body treats rejection as real pain, as it does physical wounds.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    yes.

    at church, it’s not only the literal rejection of your fellow human beings, communicated in so many different ways. it’s the implicit message that you are consigned to hell.

    sometimes it’s an explicit message.

    at the last youth group my kids were at, a student asked the youth pastor if gays will go to hell. the youth pastor said, “yes, they will.” i imagine with some sorrow in his voice. there was no qualification, no further discussion. just a point blank statement.

    the strong emotions that come up just remembering when my kids recounted that to me, and writing it out now…

    the deep damage done to a young person who is discovering they are gay (or knew it long ago) to hear such a thing… all hope squashed. hope — which enables us to get out of bed in the morning and face another day.

    i don’t have a word for the level of unconscionable irresponsibility of that youth pastor.

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  182. Ken F (aka Tweed): “Biblical” manhood

    The new reformers are always coming up with catchy terms to appear to be taking the highest road in the church kingdom. A few years ago, everything was “gospel-centered” … gospel-centered marriages, gospel-centered blogging, gospel-centered coffee, etc. Of course, to them “gospel” = Calvinism. I’m sure they believe that you don’t have “Biblical Manhood” unless you are a Calvinist … and you aren’t complying with “Biblical Womanhood” unless you submit to Calvinist patriarchal authority. It’s just a sick game to control you with power phrases that sound legit.

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  183. Erp: Friend/Nancy2 I certainly don’t trust the church having a police force under their control. I note Brigham Young University has one and it is quite notorious for getting info on rape victims (who may have reported the crime to the regular police force but interagency allows the BYU police to get the info) who are BYU students and handing it over the the university which then may kick out or otherwise penalize the victim for violating the university honor code.

    The state of Utah had announced its intention to decertify the BYU police force as of September 1. BYU appealed and a hearing will be held this fall. In the meantime, the state legislature passed a law which requires BYU PD to provide the same kind of information as other police departments do in Utah. All of this came about after scandals involving BYU police officers refusing to turn over reports to government agencies or in response to requests from the press. Additionally, it’s well known that the BYU PD acted as an arm of the Honor Code Office and accessed Utah County and Provo police databases to get information on sex crimes. This information was turned over to the HCO, which then would haul (usually) the woman in for a grilling and possible expulsion. The case of Madi Barney is instructive here.

    And lest you think it’s only private police forces that are a problem, I remember my ex-bf got a pistol after a run-in with a UT Austin police officer one night. (It was for parking in a no-parking zone late at night while putting some books in the library book drop.) Ex-bf lived very close to campus and was convinced the officer was coming for him.

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  184. Friend: Can I just ask something obvious? At the rally, who showed up with a microphone, camera, and an intention to make a documentary?

    Well, I don’t know who had the microphone, but I identified a man standing off to the side who admitted on Twitter to be filming. His name is Marcus Pittman and he either works or has worked for the church/cult I picket on Sunday afternoons (for reasons which I will not discuss here). I will tell you, based on my experience picketing that church/cult, they are very big on filming people and will tell you bluntly that if you’re in public, they have no compunction about filming AND putting the video up on their Facebook, YouTube, whatever. So I go prepared with a GoPro strapped to my hand.

    I should also note that I am not a nice person about this anymore, because I’m tired of cutting slack to cults, especially ones in my neighborhood.

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  185. Daisy: The “complementarian” solution is always as follows: victim is expected to just stay and put up with any and all abuse.

    I will never get over the afternoon my Calvi-pastor, after preaching on no divorce, sat at a table where at least two women were known by him to have experienced serious physical and/or sexual abuse from their husbands, and one was in the process of getting a divorce.

    When I questioned him on his interpretation of the verses he had used, he acknowledged that the point of the passage was the protection of women, not to bind people to a life of misery and cruelty.

    He then proceeded to scoff at the idea that there could be a problem with abuse in the home that the elders could not properly deal with, thus the woman must simply do as she was instructed. ‘Hey’, he smirked, ‘if it gets that bad, she can always call the police.’ As if he had not said, countless times, that a woman was to go first to her elders, not outside authorities. When I asked, point blank, if a woman would ever be instructed to leave her husband for her own safety, he hedged, ‘Well it depends on the severity and frequency of the abuse’.

    I’m pretty sure it was not appreciated when I asked what the standards were. How many bruises or broken bones would count as ‘severe enough’, or how many times a day was ‘frequent enough’? I’m pretty sure that was the day my Calvi-pastor became committed to driving me from the church. But I was already on my way out the door.

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  186. Max: “biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse” (Tom Hicks, Founders Ministries)

    No it isn’t. No. It. Isn’t. NO IT ISN’T!

    Sexual abuse is a product of an evil heart. It has nothing to do with role confusion, gender issues or doctrine. It. Is. Simply. Evil.

    And, more often than not, this evil takes advantage of the power differential that derives from hierarchies in the church and home. The power differential does not necessarily create abuse – it simply makes it practicable, and easy to hide.

    We are done. Done being lied to. Done being pushed around. Done being abused. Done hiding in fear. I don’t care if you are a man, woman or child. No one has a right to abuse, oppress, take advantage of or use you for their own selfish or illicit purposes.

    And we are done being quiet. Which is what scares them the most.

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  187. Mae: Biblical manhood, so needs to be thrown into the fire. Loving one another, respecting differences, being allies to each other, being friends, emulates how we are to live for the Lord, how we can live with our partners and family in harmony, not in bondage.

    Stands up and cheers.

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  188. Max: The new reformers are always coming up with catchy terms to appear to be taking the highest road in the church kingdom. A few years ago, everything was “gospel-centered” … gospel-centered marriages, gospel-centered blogging, gospel-centered coffee, etc. Of course, to them “gospel” = Calvinism. I’m sure they believe that you don’t have “Biblical Manhood” unless you are a Calvinist … and you aren’t complying with “Biblical Womanhood” unless you submit to Calvinist patriarchal authority. It’s just a sick game to control you with power phrases that sound legit.

    You speak with wisdom and experience, Max.

    Btw, hope you are feeling well. I’ve been thinking about you.

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  189. Brian: Here in Colorado religious and nonreligious both didn’t want this taught to their kids and see it as indoctrination.

    If your trying to teach your kids the acts of same sex is wrong and then it’s mandated in school, that’s indoctrination.

    I guess, to me, it seems realistic to include in sex education that this is what this is, this is what happens, people do this (they have for all of human history), so kids have the facts on it. Because they will encounter it, one way or another. Having not seen the materials, I don’t know if it goes beyond just giving the facts and actually encourages them to experiment with it, I would not want to see that. But I don’t think kids are going to hear the facts in sex ed and then go ‘gee I need to try that!’ Looking back, I was a lot more worried about this kind of thing and protective of my kids’ sensibilities than I needed to be. They see references to this stuff all around in our society and in movies and they need to have the facts. Not to mention, boys may get propositioned by older men in church and need to understand what exactly he’s leading them into. Just telling them it’s a sin that we don’t talk about won’t give them the facts they need.

    As far as it being a sin, I’ve seen so much over these past years about how Bible verses are tweaked to get the meaning that’s wanted. I guess I figure it’s between God and them and not really my business to pass judgement on. It’s not going to change them if I do, it’s who they are. When gays try to force themselves to be straight, it ends in worse tragedy than when they just be who they are. I would feel like I’m dehumanizing someone for something outside of their control. But I think of what Jesus said to Peter, “what is that to you? You follow Me!”

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  190. Daisy: We do have a problem with men getting away with poor / sexist behavior in society due to secular views, biases, and the “boys will be boys” rhetoric.

    But. I’ve yet to see secular culture say one possible solution in curtailing or halting male violence against others is “biblical manhood” or “complementarianism.”

    Yeah. That’s actually hilarious when you look at it that way.

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  191. SiteSeer: They see references to this stuff all around in our society and in movies and they need to have the facts.

    Students often beat up peers who are even slightly suspected of being gay, whether or not they are. Some kids go to churches that openly call for violence against gay people. A calm presentation of facts might just reduce school violence.

    Even if parents don’t care about the victim, a juvenile assault charge will follow an alleged assailant for a long time. Many college applications ask about charges as well as convictions. (I know nobody on TWW advocates violence, but it does happen.)

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  192. SiteSeer: I guess, to me, it seems realistic to include in sex education that this is what this is, this is what happens, people do this (they have for all of human history), so kids have the facts on it. Because they will encounter it, one way or another.

    Yes. I used to think ‘oh shield the kids’ but I myself was sheltered, and where did I learn? Bits and pieces here and there, boyfriends pressuring you are not going to sit down for a sex ed lesson, assuming they know anything themselves. Rather learn it from a neutral source with your best interests at heart, if you can find it.

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  193. Daisy: But. I’ve yet to see secular culture say one possible solution in curtailing or halting male violence against others is “biblical manhood” or “complementarianism.”

    You do have Petersonish people saying women should just sleep with any man who wants them, because otherwise they turn violent. It’s still controlling women by having them do what men want, just without the sheen of ‘biblical’. Those same people criticize women in the workplace.

    But it’s a pretty terrible solution coming from any quarter, honestly. It doesn’t work.

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  194. Lea: You do have Petersonish people saying women should just sleep with any man who wants them, because otherwise they turn violent.

    Giving her a choice between violent rape or rape by threat of violence. Yay.

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  195. Max: “biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse” (Tom Hicks, Founders Ministries)

    It is if you’re a Rapist.
    “OPEN SEASON!”

    P.S. Why do so many of these MenaGAWD sound like they’re hardcore Rape Culture?
    “I was Horny, so She Had To Be Willing.”
    “Orders from Captain Bonerhelmet Cannot be Disobeyed.”
    “Because I WANNA!”

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  196. Headless Unicorn Guy: P.S. Why do so many of these MenaGAWD sound like they’re hardcore Rape Culture?

    Because they are not far from it.
    Still mad at Driscoll and his Peasant Princess series. He uses a story from the Songs to basically say to women, always be willing no matter how tired you are. If you don’t, you deserve abandonment cause he’ll go elsewhere.

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  197. SiteSeer: As far as it being a sin, I’ve seen so much over these past years about how Bible verses are tweaked to get the meaning that’s wanted.

    I figured I’d be able to find something more on this, and came up with this article. Apparently there is a book on the Leviticus translation due to come out next year. All I can say is Bible translation is a lot less straightforward than I used to believe.

    https://www.truthorfiction.com/was-the-word-homosexual-only-added-to-leviticus-1822-in-1983/

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  198. Mara: Still mad at Driscoll and his Peasant Princess series. He uses a story from the Songs to basically say to women, always be willing no matter how tired you are. If you don’t, you deserve abandonment cause he’ll go elsewhere.

    Is that the Song of Solomon “exegesis” that led me to rename him “Deep Throat Driscoll”?

    The first (but not the last) of many-many unwanted peeks into a ManaGAWD’s sexual obsessions?

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  199. TS00: For some reason, relentless sexual demands tend to follow the ‘male authority’ model.

    And such Manly-Men NEVER seem to find out that Real Life is not one continuous porn loop.

    (“Today Asok learns that life is not like Star Trek.” — Dilbert)

    Because “relentless sexual demands” of the male on an always-willing, totally-submissive female is a baseline trope of PORNOGRAPHY. Granted, in a society as sexually-obsessed as today’s you’re going to find a LOT of porn tropes floating around, but it seems that adding a Bible to the mix just supercharges the obsession and LARPing.

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