Observations of SBC#19 and a Condemnation of The Founders Who Disrespected Victims of Sex Abuse at the Rally

Dee and Jules Woodson after the Rally

“‘Why was I chosen?’ ‘Such questions cannot be answered,’ said Gandalf. ‘You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.’” Lord of the Rings-JRR Tolkien


This sudden national attention has been a bit trying for me. Unlike others, I enjoy focusing on victims and helping folks figure out how to avoid abuse in the wider evangelical/Protestant church while sitting at my kitchen table.  So, when I got a couple of calls from NPR the Friday before the *For Such a Time as This* Rally, I answered quickly and promptly forgot ab out it. As I was on my way to Birmingham, my brother called me. He was driving into work in Boston and always listens to NPR. He almost drove off the road when he heard my voice. I had only mentioned my blog to him on a couple of occasions. That was the beginning of my experience which left me feeling a bit discombobulated.

An observation on my way to Birmingham

The SBC relegated the rally to the public streets outside of the convention center.

Special thanks go out to the police and the city of Birmingham who allowed the *For Such a Time As This Rally” to hold their event outside of the convention center. JD Greear had no time to meet with the representatives for 9 months prior to the event and his two stand ins kept paying lip service about trying to get them int the hall. Suddenly, in April they decided *no go.*

There was *no room* at the convention hall. It had a nice Biblical ring to it.

However, due to a rather amusing coincidence, the Rally was right next to the SBC #19 participants waiting for their buses. So, Jules Woodson and I decided that there was a captive audience waiting for us. Jules stood in front of them, movingly addressing her abuse. So much so, that a number of the pastors standing there chose to lay hands on her and pray .

I, on the other hand, had some dialogue which did not result in being prayed over. One woman claimed that “not all of the pastors abuse people,” totally missing the point. I explained to her that she could do more than proclaim the virtues of the non-molesters. I suggested she become more involved in actively preventing abuse in her church. Her husband (I think) said “My church is safe. We do background checks.” I told him that most pedophiles are not convicted and that people in his church are in danger if that is all that they do. Silence ensued, especially when I suggested that the woman write Steve Bradley at Stonebridge Church and ask why he wouldn’t speak with Jules.

I got to hold up some signs for the first time ever at an event like this.

Dwight McKissic can preach!


I am profoundly grateful that Pastor McKissic took to the microphone during the Rally, speaking against sex abuse in the SBC. He is a member of the team over at SBC Voices and his preaching definitely garnered the attention of the media present.

Thank you.

SBC Voices came to say *hi* along with some others.

It was wonderful to meet William Thornton and David Miller of SBC Voices who attended the Rally. I know they don’t always agree with me but they have also actually listened to me a few times. One of them said I look nothing like *the Church Lady,* my avatar on Twitter.

It was fun, after almost 10 years, to lay eyes on *Oracle at Delphi.” Another pastor from the Midwest said he has been following TWW for years and admitted that he’s learned a few things from me! His parting shot: “You were right about Mark Driscoll.”

Wade Burleson, a supporter of the Rally, attempted to get the IMB to make public an internal report on predatory missionaries.

Not only did Wade attend the Rally, he attended the after party for the Rally.  He spoke movingly about the work of Christa Brown who was honored during the event.

Wade attempted to get the IMB to make public an internal report on predatory missionaries as reported by the Houston Chronicle.

an Oklahoma pastor and longtime advocate for sexual abuse reforms, who called on his former employer, the International Mission Board, to make public an internal report on predatory missionaries. The mission board was the subject of a recent Chronicle investigation that found a pattern of coverups or mishandling of abuse claims by mission board officials.

Mission board officials did not address any abuse issues during their scheduled address to messengers on Tuesday. Burleson’s motion was not allowed to move forward, a decision he said was “stunning” and “tone-deaf.”

Christa Brown is finally honored.

Wade remarked at how much Christa had to suffer when she began her blog *Stop Baptist Predators.* He reminded us how pastors would turn away from her and accuse her of bringing shame upon the SBC. She was the true prophet who called out sex abuse in the SBC. There are a bunch of men who should hang there heads in shame for how she was treated.

The organizers of For Such a Time As This Rally are awesome!

One of the funnier moments in my conversation with NPR was when the editor asked me why I kept referring to the those who put together the Rally as *they.* I got what he was asking. I told him that I did not help in organizing the rally and that I was merely a *hanger on.* These folks did a great job and put up with the nonsense of the SBC organizers who I suspect never intended to allow them inside the convention hall.

Thank you for your hard work and for putting up with the brush off. I would not have been as pleasant.

JD Greear asked victims of sex abuse to stand and be prayed for.

This was not a wise move. There is nothing that the SBC has done, to this point, which proves they will actually do anything to assist victims except vocalize that they are against sex abuse. To top it off, they allowed Ministry Safe to have a table in the convention hall. Ministry Safe appears to me to be pastor and leadercentric, protecting the churches who have had a sex abuse problem.

Why would victims believe that the SBC wouldn’t use their knowledge to investigate those who stood to prepare themselves for lawsuits? I find this situation manipulative, at best.

The SBC appears to have its *chosen* victims to show off that they care and seems to avoid those who have not healed in an approved, gospel™ fashion.

is it me or are there any victims whose Baptist preacher predators are alive and well and being named? Are there any victims presented who are still struggling with their faith or have actually walked away from the faith? Is the SBC willing to present the very real pain and faith difficulties of victims of SBC abuse? Are the only ones being presented the ones who do it right, according to the SBC preferred *optics?*

Which brings me to the next point:

Founders: How could you play this sort of game with abuse victims? This is so wrong and so many ways.


The Founders at the SBC heap further abuse upon sex abuse victims by attempting to *trap* members of the For Such a Time As This Rally.

What happens to those who are sexually abused by their Baptist pastors (or any pastors for that matter but this post is dealing with the SBC specifically?) Here”s just a few reactions.

  • Sone walk away fro the faith and never return.
  • Some find a different type of church which doesn’t remind them of their abusive church.
  • Some become more progressive in their theology, believing that conservative theology led to their abuse.
  • Some become suspicious that male dominated churches led tho their abuse and search for churches which have female leaders.
  • Some suffer for years, seeking out various measures to reduce their pain.
  • Some stay in conservative denominations.
  • Some believe but can’t attend church.

For those of you who do not know, I am a conservative Lutheran, having left an SBC church. My family and I were not sexually abused. I watched what happened when my former SBC church mishandled (in my opinion) a terrible sex abuse situation that affected over 13 teen boys, including a son of a friend.

However, I understand how such trauma can radically affect how people respond and view the church. I am a friend to many victims and my goal is not to *convert* them to my way of thinking. Instead, I try to support them by demonstrating that my love and support is not predicated on their acceptance of my theology.

A Founder’s documentary?

Do you know who the Founders are? They are an ultra-Calvinist Baptist group who are devoted to *calvinizing* each and every Baptist church on the planet.

Years ago, I wrote the other side of the story when it came to Andy Davis and First Baptist Church, Durham. Back then, I wasn’t well known but now that more people are reading my stuff, I can say  that it is well worth your read. I promise. This gospel™ Founder called two wonderful Christian people that I personally know *wicked and unregenerate* because they believed that women could be deacons. The horror of it al.

Ashely Easter quizzed on issues other than sex abuse.

Ashely Easter mentioned that this guy cam up to her at the Rally, put out a microphone and interviewed her, asking question about her view of women in ministry and the LGBTQ question. She thought it was bizarre since was off topic. When I mentioned that I heard that a group called The Founders had their audio removed from the SBC#19 meeting, she said “That was the group mentioned by the interviewer.”

I was deeply concerned. This is a Rally, standing against sex abuse in the SBC and this guy thought that going after one of the rally members, who has been abused, was the agenda?


Ashely being interrogated.

Kyle Howard felt disrespected by the Founder’s interviewer.

Then, I learned that another Rally member was also cornered and felt disrespected. He was told they were doing some sort of documentary. Kyle is an abuse survivor, a preacher and a counselor specializing in racial trauma content.

It appears the insensitive interrogator was Jared Longshore and Tom Ascol stood by, encouraging him in his dubious endeavor.

I had Ashley look at pictures (a lineup!!) and this is who it was. Also we know that Tom Ascol stood by while this was going on

My thoughts and a warning to the Founders: Apologize, now!

The Founders probably believe that anyone who doesn’t see things their way must be unregenerate (the Calvinist term for not saved) and probably not one of the elect.  That would also include me because I am wri8ting this about them and am likely in the employ of Stan (sic).

I was asked the same question by a number of reporters.

Do you think the SBC is going to do the right thing regarding sex abuse?

My answer was not expected. I said:

I don’t know.

I spent a number of years in the SBC and, then, the last 10 years watching them. The SBC are really good at fancy preaching and lots of tears, repenting sort of.  However, just a few days after JD Greear said that they would go after the churches named in the Houston Chronicle, 7 of the 10 were exonerated. Days…Think about it.

Now, the Founders, who had their big meeting at the SBC, take the unique opportunity to interact, pray for, and learn from abuse survivors and, instead, use it to prove something. What is that? It’s pretty clear to me. That want to discredit the survivors. Instead of showing empathy and humility, they stick microphones in the faces of survivors and played *Gotcha in only 3 questions.*

I heard that their meeting SBC #19 didn’t go so well and that the audio of the session disappeared. I want to speak with anyone who was there. Confidentiality guaranteed. I will make sure that Jared “The Interrogator* doesn’t try to put you in his *documentary.*

Founders: You need to apologize. You have demonstrated to me that you don’t get SBC sex abuse nor do you want to understand or learn from anyone except those who share you laser focused theology.

What you did was unworthy of Christians who should care for those who have been hurt and let down by the church. It is because of this that causes me to worry that the SBC will actually move to do anything for victims. Will you encourage them to play 20 questions and only help those who answer it in Founders’ approved fashion? You tell me.

Matthew 23:1-4 NIV

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.


Comments

Observations of SBC#19 and a Condemnation of The Founders Who Disrespected Victims of Sex Abuse at the Rally — 335 Comments

  1. JD Greear asked victims of sex abuse to stand and be prayed for.
    Prayer is the SBC “salve” for everything . . . Because something has been prayed for, prayed about, and prayed over, it then becomes God’s issue. Add in neo-Calvinism and it all become’s God’s will. While this does not address the concerns regarding sexual abuse in the church, prayer just makes everyone “feel so good” by “giving it up to God.”

    The SBC . . . the more things change, the more they stay the same.

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  2. founders were an evil empire in the Star Trek universe Of Deep Space Nine. They operated by stealth, they hid behind others And whenever they got a chance to speak on any episode they always looked so calm and rational. But as a group they were cold-blooded, calculating, and intent on one goal only which was to control every other race in the entire known universe. Uncanny resemblance to the SBC group reported on in this article. you cant make stuff like this up.
    Stand firm Dee, son of Stan, and all those who were at the Rally! The “founders” of Star Trek didnt prevail. Neither will these people.

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  3. Tom Ascol and his Founders Ministries are about as hyper-Calvinist as you can get! They have been conducting a “Quiet Revolution” for years within SBC to Calvinize the denomination. Al Mohler has been a featured speaker at Founders’ conferences over the years. Tom Chantry was one of their darlings. And over the weekend, another SBC “pastor” affiliated with the Founders, Stephen Bratton, was arrested on child sex abuse allegations. I’m not surprised that one of their reps intimidated Ashely Easter at SBC-Birmingham by sticking a mic in her face … the Founders are a bunch of mean-spirited guys – some of which have trouble keeping their pants on.

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  4. I think all pastors need to work for 2 years in behavioral health setting and see the reality of the epidemic of sexual abuse in this nation. They all live under rocks and act like this never happens in our society much less their churches!

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  5. If you’re interested in hearing what Dee was quoted as saying on that radio program, I transcribed the section where she’s referenced. It’s in this “NPR 1A” podcast of June 12, 2019.

    https://the1a.org/shows/2019-06-12/future-southern-baptist

    The host, Joshua Johnson, asked Tom Gjelten–NPR Correspondent on Religion and Belief–how widespread the sexual abuse problem seems to be within the Southern Baptist Convention. Gjelten talked about the Houston Chronicle’s “Abuse Of Faith” series, which documented over 400 cases of abuse going back as far as 1998. Then, at about the 03:45 mark, he says he talked to:

    “… a woman who is very carefully monitoring sex abuse allegations in the evangelical world. Her name is Dee Parsons. She runs a blog called The Wartburg Watch. She insists it is a bigger problem in the Southern Baptist world than it is even in the Catholic world.”

    There was a lot of interesting stuff in the 45-minute podcast. Host Joshua Johnson opened by noting that the SBC is the second largest Christian denomination in the U.S., after the Catholics. The SBC claims 16 million members–which means that about 1 in every 20 Americans identify as Southern Baptist.

    My thoughts on this statistic: Since that’s 5% of our entire population, it’s clearly a public concern how well or worse the SBC does on abuse. They have a huge cultural reach, which also means a massive public responsibility.

    Also, I believe that if the SBC institutional and local church leaders were wise, they would listen “in stereo” to the experiences and insights of both abuse survivors who have stayed within the ranks of SBC churches, and those who have left. That would give them a far better “spiritual and organizational MRI” composite to pinpoint specific actions they need to take to repair abuse, enablement, and cover-up from the past and as course corrections to prevent abuse in the future.

    IMO, some of their institutional entities have made some important steps forward and produced helpful resources, made significant commitments. But we heard basically nothing from the North American Mission Board, Womans Missionary Union, or LifeWay–and not enough public discussion about the independent investigation commissioned for the International Mission Board. Clearly, far more is needed for their system as a whole and every entity has to be monitored because there is no central way for that to happen because of SBC polity of autonomy.

    Which is why citizen journalist bloggers like Dee and Christa Brown and Wade Burleson and others are important to abuse survivor advocacy–as are the independent investigative journalists and teams who report on systemic abuse.

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  6. “Mission board officials did not address any abuse issues during their scheduled address to messengers on Tuesday. Burleson’s motion was not allowed to move forward, a decision he said was “stunning” and “tone-deaf.””

    They’re not getting national pressure over that, so one narrative couching at a time — especially as it might brush back on a well-placed rad dudebro.

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  7. brad/futuristguy: The SBC claims 16 million members–which means that about 1 in every 20 Americans identify as Southern Baptist.

    The SBC has been playing a funny-numbers game for years. As a 70+ year Southern Baptist (I’m “Done” now), I can tell you that roughly half of that number are reported on church rolls without determining where they really are! Some are dead, some have moved from the community, some have joined other churches, etc. Thus, the number of ‘real’ SBC members is around 8 million and of that number only half again would be considered active members by attending church on a regular basis. Sooo … the number is really around 4 million … and most of them don’t scare the devil when they get out of bed in the morning (in the world and of the world). Once a great evangelistic soul-winning denomination, which had a foreign mission program envied by other church organizations, the SBC has been dying a slow death … and that has been burdensome to watch as someone who was literally born into the SBC family.

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  8. JDV: “Mission board officials did not address any abuse issues during their scheduled address to messengers on Tuesday. Burleson’s motion was not allowed to move forward, a decision he said was “stunning” and “tone-deaf.””

    If there have been hundreds of sex abuse victims in U.S. churches affiliated with the SBC (as reported by the Houston Chronicle), what gross sins have been committed on foreign fields not under the watch by those who monitor such evil?

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  9. Beakerj: Pastors should have to work in a range of jobs before getting anywhere near a church.

    I truly believe that many men “prepare for the ministry” because they won’t have to work! Don’t get me wrong, professional ministry can be hard work for those who have a passion and love for congregations and communities under their watch. But, many “pastors” spend more time in coffee shops (the young ones) and the golf course (the old ones) than they do visiting the sick in hospitals and nursing homes and ministering to the everyday needs of hurting people in need of the love of Christ.

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  10. Max,

    Yup, I hear you. These faulty numbers (or should we consider them falsified, since they’ve stood uncorrected/unclarified for years) create yet another set of transparency and reputation problems for the SBC system, IMO.

    I have been in SBC churches or church plants over half my adult life (so, ~ 25 years) plus worked at Golden Gate Seminary for 11 years. I want to see local churches and institutional entities take responsibility for repairing past abuse and preventing future abuse. “Safe for survivors and safe from abuse” is a good slogan–but they need to ensure it becomes reality.

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  11. Beakerj,

    I worked for a few months in a textile mill, a summer and fall in a mattress factory, and Fort Bliss (Officer training) before 35 years of ministry. I also attended Ga Tech (engineering degree).
    That meet your criteria?

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  12. ___

    Provisioned: “Towards An Ever Declining 501c3 Religious Confusion, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    I respectfully decline the overture of man-made Calvinist, and Arminian theological religious systems.

    With Jesus, God’s dear Son, and the effervescent work of His Holy Spirit, I simply have no need of them…

    Before they attempt to trap me in man-made stumbling blocks such as legally binding membership agreements, I am inclined rather to gratefully accept Jesus’ righteousness and His promised no strings attached offer of eternal life. A promised assurance is wonderfully backed by His word. That provisioned guarantee is certainily good enough for me.

    Jesus, in turn, covers me with His very blood, the very cloak of God’s righteousness, the very satisfaction of the law of God, —the very soothing and relieving fragrant balm of the grace of God comforts me, the administration of His Holy Spirit guides me continually, my God has taken me up in the hollow of His hand, rendering my promised end, a good one.

    The 501c3 organizational church has long potentially become an impediment, a stumbling block, an aberration to a healthy faith in Jesus.

    Furthermore, why would anyone need the addition of literary works of historical renowned religious men to ‘secure’ ™ their salvation? The Lord’s word is well done, yes?

    Selah!

    Lord Jesus, Come soon!

    (Cheeeeeeeese!)

    hum, hum, hum…”Thy loving kindness is better than life…”

    ATB

    Sòpy

    Intermission:
    Amel Bent – “Eye Of The Tiger” (cover)
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr8AtQiFtTY

    ;~)§

    – –

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  13. brad/futuristguy: I want to see local churches and institutional entities take responsibility for repairing past abuse and preventing future abuse. “Safe for survivors and safe from abuse” is a good slogan–but they need to ensure it becomes reality.

    I just don’t see the ‘spiritual’ leadership in SBC these days to make that happen. We need men of God (not preacher-boys) in American pulpits who can sense the work of the enemy in their churches and do something about it. My father used to say that there are three types of leaders on the planet: (1) those who plan to make things happen, (2) those who make things happen, and (3) those who wonder “What happened?!” SBC leaders are in the planning stage on this … I hope they don’t end up wondering what happened.

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  14. Assuuming we are talking about the Founder’s conference held the day before the meeting of the SBC in Birmingham. Actually only one Founder’s speech “disappeared”, the one by David Miller. The stated reason was “audio issues.” This can be checked out at:

    https://founders.org/events/2019/05/mature-manhood-in-an-immature-age-2019-founders-sbc-event/

    The event included the McKissic – Ascol debate on Women preaching at Sunday Church Services (and is linked to in the above link).

    Wade Burleson had a response/review of this conference at:

    https://www.wadeburleson.org/2019/06/i-now-see-why-they-say-women-are-not-to.html

    And Wade explained why he went to it at:

    https://www.wadeburleson.org/2019/06/the-2019-sbc-pastors-and-founders.html

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  15. My social media newsfeed has shown me several posts by people reacting in righteous anger to a recently published article on Desiring God entitled “The Enticing Sin of Empathy,” so the SBC’s response in all of this is 100% on brand. That doesn’t make it any less sickening.

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  16. I’m thinking the people who were ambush interviewed by Founders need to inform Founders that they do not give permission for their interviews to be used because they were gotten under false pretenses. Let me tell you, Founders, if you use those interviews, I will compare your “documentary” to “What in the Bleep Do We Know?” which misused interviews by scientists to support some wacky theories by cult leader JZ Knight of “Ramtha” fame. Really, I will. Because not being honest, that’s just awful for a bunch of alleged ministers of the Gospel.

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  17. Max: I just don’t see the ‘spiritual’ leadership in SBC these days to make that happen. We need men of God (not preacher-boys) in American pulpits who can sense the work of the enemy in their churches and do something about it.

    I know a very few who already work on such concerns as racism in the SBC, immigration and refugee ministries, church planting, missions. They are trustworthy and will act righteously regardless of what happens officially.

    One of the reasons I’ve been studying and writing so much about this is to spotlight issues of accountability and consequences for entities that fail in due diligence. Also, the SBC is not the only system like this … there are other sorts of associations in Church and community. So, I am preparing to compare these with other systems that have centralized ways to address system problems.

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  18. brad/futuristguy: I know a very few who already work on such concerns as racism in the SBC, immigration and refugee ministries, church planting, missions. They are trustworthy and will act righteously regardless of what happens officially.

    That’s what it will take … a good person here and there who will ignore poor leadership and shepherd the right thing themselves. Those who are tapped to lead a particular effort are not always the right person to do so. Lord knows that has been the case over the years on many SBC initiatives. It’s sort of like Russell Moore and J.D. Greear ramrodding the SBC panel on abuse last week, when they should have just sat down, shut up, and let the women handle it.

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  19. Max: I truly believe that many men “prepare for the ministry” because they won’t have to work!

    After Liberty and SEBTS, I can back this up with what baby pastors have told me. Many I met had this idea that being a pastor meant that they only worked a couple days a week and everybody was there for the pastor’s benefit while they would be making big bucks. I was horrified by the quality of potential pastoral candidates, most of whom had already been ordained.

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  20. brad/futuristguy: I know a very few who already work on such concerns as racism in the SBC, immigration and refugee ministries, church planting, missions. They are trustworthy and will act righteously regardless of what happens officially.

    I know several that were ousted in the turnovers at IMB and NAMB. I was working at NAMB when it had a complete turnover of staff. I was “fired” on dubious reasons that seemed more like I was set up. That’s a totally weird story. I didn’t really understand what happened until I started seeing the turnovers elsewhere and found out that pretty much everyone formerly on staff at NAMB had been fired.

    There were some amazing, decent, faithful Christians in Southern Baptist ministry that were removed so young, inexperienced, and uninterested YRRs could get their jobs. Then all those institutions moved away from those types of ministries.

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  21. drstevej:
    Beakerj,

    I worked for a few months in a textile mill, a summer and fall in a mattress factory, and Fort Bliss (Officer training) before 35 years of ministry. I also attended Ga Tech (engineering degree).That meet your criteria?

    That’s enough for me DrStevej. THWG!

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  22. ishy: I was horrified by the quality of potential pastoral candidates, most of whom had already been ordained.

    “Never be in a hurry to ordain a man, or you may be making yourself responsible for his sins.” (1 Timothy 5:22 Phillips)

    Think about it, watchblogs and media have covered countless accounts of bad-boy preachers who have committed god-awful sins of the flesh against church members. Their victims trusted them … because they were ordained!

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  23. brad/futuristguy: ways to address system problems

    Bolts of lightning here and there or dropping dead at the church door would help. Things in the American church may be getting close to that.

    “Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events” (Acts 5:11).

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  24. ishy: There were some amazing, decent, faithful Christians in Southern Baptist ministry that were removed so young, inexperienced, and uninterested YRRs could get their jobs.

    Makes you wonder about the real reason behind the purging of 1,000 career missionaries at IMB (primarily non-Calvinist).

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  25. Max: Makes you wonder about the real reason behind the purging of 1,000 career missionaries at IMB (primarily non-Calvinist).

    I don’t really wonder. I’m pretty sure because it’s cheaper to plant churches in the US, you get more Convention votes, and they buy Lifeway literature because it’s in English.

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  26. Max: what gross sins have been committed on foreign fields not under the watch by those who monitor such evil?

    Probably the same percentage of workers overseas commit these kinds of crimes as people on the home side. In my nearly thirty years experience most of the people I’ve met overseas working cross-culturally have been Godly hard-working Spirit-filled people of faith. And then Ive encountered a much smaller percent who are hiding overseas because there was/is little accountability and complete freedom to do what they wanted.

    My current org has trained every worker to recognize and report child abuse, including grooming behavior. Now that ive been trained I’d say two people i knew displayed clear signs of being predators. One killed himself. The other was a short term worker who never returned.

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  27. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I’m thinking the people who were ambush interviewed by Founders need to inform Founders that they do not give permission for their interviews to be used because they were gotten under false pretenses.

    I wonder if the microphone was really wired to anything. Perhaps they just used it to intimidate folks (“we’re going to air your words”), without really recording anything … just a dead mic as dead as they are.

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  28. Fisher: They operated by stealth, they hid behind others And whenever they got a chance to speak on any episode they always looked so calm and rational. But as a group they were cold-blooded, calculating, and intent on one goal only which was to control every other race in the entire known universe. Uncanny resemblance to the SBC group reported on in this article. you cant make stuff like this up.

    That is an amazing ‘coincidence’. The goal of Calvinism (not necessarily the run of the mill Calvinist) from the get go was to establish the kingdom of God on earth, a.k.a. ‘rule the world’. The setting up of the true kingdom awaits the return of the king.

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  29. Dee – amazing insights as usual. I’m thankful that you were there at the rally. You were brave and bold, and it made me adore you all the more! I’m so glad that you used this Matthew 23 passage. It was read during our small group Bible study last night, and I, of course, thought of so many in the SBC.

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  30. L. Lee,

    Thank you for your kind reply. I knew what Wade said and was planning on presenting it here. I always like to be able to listen to the audio so I can appear to show I care about what was said. Rumor has it that some weird things were said by those on the Founders side of things.

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  31. Thank you for your tireless word, Dee.

    Now, on to asking victims stand for prayer….I don’t understand this. It sounds like some people stood, and they are brave for doing so. But, you know that there are people who never would because that means announcing in front of that huge audience that they were a victim of sex abuse. It’s insensitive, awkward,uncomfortable, and not at all an inviting way for a victim to come forward.

    The church can do better.

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  32. Fisher,
    Probably the same percentage of workers overseas commit these kinds of crimes as people on the home side. In my nearly thirty years experience most of the people I’ve met overseas working cross-culturally have been Godly hard-working Spirit-filled people of faith. And then Ive encountered a much smaller percent who are hiding overseas because there was/is little accountability and complete freedom to do what they wanted.

    Thanks for the positive spin on missionaries. I did about 15 years of missionary work here and overseas. The first organization had us all living out in the community, not in a compound-like setting. What I’ve noticed with some of the cases is that everyone is living at a school or shared housing where intimacy seems to literally breed contempt. What did concern me with the first organization was the lack of resources for dealing with any kind trauma, sexual, crime, or civil violence. Those things hadn’t been invented yet, it seemed. I had to seek outside counseling for help with PTSD after I returned from my first assignment because i lived in a country where a civil war was raging. I still get nervous when the police helicopter goes overhead. You just can’t say “trust God” to a sexual abuse victim and hope that everything will be hunky dory. It’s actually the cruelest thing you can say.

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  33. drstevej: I worked for a few months in a textile mill, a summer and fall in a mattress factory, and Fort Bliss (Officer training) before 35 years of

    In all sincerity drstevej, my hat’s off to you.
    You’re the real McCoy.

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  34. Josh: My social media newsfeed has shown me several posts by people reacting in righteous anger to a recently published article on Desiring God entitled “The Enticing Sin of Empathy,” so the SBC’s response in all of this is 100% on brand. That doesn’t make it any less sickening.

    Imagine a world without empathy! Why on earth would anyone encourage that?

    Do these guys have to take any psychology courses or child development in their schooling? How can they be so oblivious to the human condition?

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  35. Having a very tall male “interview” Ashley Easter?

    In the customer service portion of my airline career, I saw tall large men try to intimidate the smaller female customer service agents, when they felt they were not being treated fairly.

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  36. TS00: The goal of Calvinism (not necessarily the run of the mill Calvinist) from the get go was to establish the kingdom of God on earth, a.k.a. ‘rule the world’. The setting up of the true kingdom awaits the return of the king.

    The hubris of sinful men using sinful methods to think they have the ability, expertise, or power to bring Christ back is beyond description.

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  37. SiteSeer: Do these guys have to take any psychology courses or child development in their schooling? How can they be so oblivious to the human condition?

    They just don’t care.

    They pretend what they want to be true is true; things that only benefit them.

    And they pretend what they don’t want to be true isn’t true.

    They despise anyone who will not pretend with them.

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  38. Brian – The SBC has been warned for years that there were sex abusers within their midst. The truth tellers were publicly shut down. It took newspapers writing multiple stories that made national headlines for them to finally talk about doing something about it. Then they want victims to openly acknowledge themselves and stand within their midst so they can be prayed for?! It’s already uncomfortable to do this for Mother’s Day. Imagine the “concerned prayers” being passed around the congregations.

    Listening to someone’s story should be a sacred, trusted moment. Not a grand moment of, “Look what we’re doing! We have all of these victims among us. We acknowledge you and we’re gonna pray for you.” I’m sorry….they had years to believe victims and help in tangible ways. This was a poor attempt at turning the ship around.

    Like I said, for those who were willing to stand, I commend them for their bravery. I sincerely hope they made a positive impact for necessary change that needs to happen. As for those who could never bring themselves to do that, I fully understand and hope that they are able to find a trusted person to talk to in order to begin healing. I do hope that the SBC makes some constructive change. Time will tell if they really intend to fight on the side of victims. From the look of things, they have a long way to go.

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  39. drstevej:
    Beakerj,

    I worked for a few months in a textile mill, a summer and fall in a mattress factory, and Fort Bliss (Officer training) before 35 years of ministry. I also attended Ga Tech (engineering degree).That meet your criteria?

    Did you graduate magna or summa? Otherwise, not qualified.

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  40. Where there is both Mammon and Fame you will find many White Washed Septic Tanks masquerading as both believers and leaders. By their fruit you will know them. I am not impressed with religious institutions as a whole. SBC is bigger, richer and more famous then most others so I think that overall it is worse than average. There are always some better people in these institutions, like Wade, but to assume that the institution is good just because they use the name Jesus Christ and wave it around like a hammer is a huge mistake.

    I no longer believe that 501c religious institutions are what Jesus has ever called the actual church He is building. What He is building looks, sounds and, most importantly, acts like Jesus. It exists wherever God wants it to. These people are His Church regardless of rather or not they go to a religious service on Sunday. For those of you who self-proclaim that you are “dones” so am I as far as the institutions are concerned. But Jesus Church is real and growing and is the only thing that will actually be left standing at the end of all things. I am a part of that Church and so is everyone else who actually does the will of the Father. The Word of God remains true even while the practices of Harlot Church leaders deny them by what they do. The Harlots will not let you into the building that they control. Jesus Himself has been locked out of what they are doing. What they are doing is not about Jesus, it is about leveraging the real God to make themselves more rich and famous. There are deep parts of hell reserved for these fake pastors and leaders. And I do not believe these men believe in a final judgment day where they have to give account. They are not Christians but actually harlots leading people in the same way that the Pharisees did that Jesus said were sons of the Devil.

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  41. Linn,

    “You just can’t say “trust God” to a sexual abuse victim and hope that everything will be hunky dory. It’s actually the cruelest thing you can say.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    if you have faith in the bible you can. it turns the bible into a book of magic. a book of magic that does not work. no, everything will not be hunky dory. yes, it is very cruel.

    faith in the bible is not faith in God.

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  42. Guest,

    “They pretend what they want to be true is true; things that only benefit them.

    And they pretend what they don’t want to be true isn’t true.

    They despise anyone who will not pretend with them.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    they have faith in the bible, not in God. in their interpretation of the bible, which benefits them.

    this “faith” allows them to pretend that applying their interpretation to people and circumstances will makes things work out alright. so that people have no right to complain. what could possibly go wrong and what could there possibly be to complain about when it’s the bible?

    faith in the bible.

    shun someone from their only community of friends and pretend it’s good for them and gives glory to God.

    require someone to stay married to an abuser and pretend it’s good for them and gives glory to God.

    forbid your daughter from going to college and require her to live at home until she marries and pretend it’s good for her and gives glory to God.

    put women in subjection to men and they pretend it is beautiful and good for them and gives glory to God.

    make people who don’t have stereotypical feminine and masculine traits change themselves to fit the ‘right’ mold and pretend it is good for them and gives glory to God.

    require people of minority sexuality to live a lonely life all alone and pretend it’s good for them and gives glory to God.

    anyone who doesn’t pretend along with them — who says “ouch! that hurts” — is a heretic. simply because they refuse to pretend.

    it’s magical thinking. i call this stupid faith.

    it is selfish faith.

    it is recreating the world in their own image. into the biblical interpretation that suits them.

    all that’s left to say is “well, i guess it sucks to be you. but it gives glory to God.”

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  43. Kathi: Now, on to asking victims stand for prayer….I don’t understand this. It sounds like some people stood, and they are brave for doing so. But, you know that there are people who never would because that means announcing in front of that huge audience that they were a victim of sex abuse. It’s insensitive, awkward,uncomfortable, and not at all an inviting way for a victim to come forward.

    The church can do better.

    I agree, Kathi. It’s like asking everyone who is HIV+ to stand up and reveal their status. A total invasion of people’s privacy and right to choose where and when to reveal such personal and sensitive information.

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  44. elastigirl,

    alright…..

    maybe i shouldn’t comment in the middle of the night, when i’m feeling the full weight of unedited my convictions (along with the weight of the world on my shoulders).

    let me rephrase: at the very least, make a sober appraisal of one’s biblical interpretation and understand and acknowledge when it requires cruelty towards others. if you own the interpretation, own the cruelty.

    i hope this is reasonable.

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  45. I culled this from the Founders Ministries blog:

    https://thouarttheman.org/wp-content/uploads/2019-06-17-ARBCA-Presence-in-Founders-Ministry.png

    You will find some of the usual suspects in the top two rows of the link above. The bottom two rows consist of ARBCA pastors.

    You will recall that ARBCA is the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America. This association has had a corrupt group of leaders who have known from 2000 that Tom Chantry was abusing children. They covered it up and welcomed Chantry and his church into membership in 2016. Shortly after that Chantry was arrested and convicted of 2 counts of assaulting children in the first trial and 4 counts of sexually molesting a child in the second trial. He will be sentenced July 19th on the 4 counts of molestation. Hopefully he will receive a sentence that will keep him in prison the rest of his life. Chantry is facing a third trial in which he is charged with 9 felony counts of assault, molestation and child abuse.

    Founders Ministries leader, Tom Ascol was informed of the corruption of the ARBCA men in his organization by Brent Detwiler. To my knowledge he has done nothing. I guess he was too busy hassling the victims of abuse at the rally outside the SBC convention.

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  46. Linn: What did concern me with the first organization was the lack of resources for dealing with any kind trauma, sexual, crime, or civil violence. Those things hadn’t been invented yet, it seemed.

    What you describe is what I experienced for many years living overseas. just wasn’t a lot of awareness, nor were there any resources for people who gone through trauma. Even today That kind of help is quite limited, although growing. One of my best friends Works in a Counseling Center in Southeast Asia we’re missionaries from all over the region can come to debrief talk and find help in a safe and hundred percent confidential environment.

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  47. Rachael Denhollander was interviewed by Judy Woodruff on PBS NewsHour on June 12 about SBC response on abuse. Here is link to the video and transcript:

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/why-survivors-arent-surprised-by-sexual-abuse-inside-southern-baptist-churches

    Excerpt from RD:
    “The SBC president, J.D. Greear, had put forward a list of churches that he believed merited closer scrutiny for how they had handled sexual abuse claims. But, within a matter of days, the SBC’s Executive Committee, who was in charge of doing that investigation, cleared seven out of those 10 churches, without talking to survivors, and, unfortunately, did so on a four-pronged basis that was almost useless in evaluating whether churches mishandle abuse.”

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  48. “Ashely Easter mentioned that this guy cam up to her at the Rally, put out a microphone and interviewed her, asking question about her view of women in ministry and the LGBTQ question.”

    You can only talk about crime if you also oppose X Y and Z?

    Wanting an end to abuse is like wanting clean water. We all need clean water. Who cares if it’s a child asking for it, or a vegan, or a combat veteran, or Elvis? Why set out to discredit people with gotcha questions and deliberate (mis)labeling?

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  49. Max: It’s sort of like Russell Moore and J.D. Greear ramrodding the SBC panel on abuse last week, when they should have just sat down, shut up, and let the women handle it.

    Both of them like to hear themselves talk way too much to do that!

    If any of these men were capable of listening to women, they might not have such a big problem on their hands.

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  50. ishy: After Liberty and SEBTS, I can back this up with what baby pastors have told me. Many I met had this idea that being a pastor meant that they only worked a couple days a week and everybody was there for the pastor’s benefit while they would be making big bucks.

    All these stories you tell have finally filled in the blanks on why I took a big hiatus from church after college…I couldn’t find any that seemed to fit me and I found the sermons boring and hackneyed. (also the music). Maybe they were just all lazy and that’s why they talked about golf and their kids so much?

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  51. Lea,

    I am an alumni of SWBTS and it was that way for many of the guys back in the 1980s. Nobody is telling these guys what I was told before I went to seminary.

    ” If you can do ANYTHING other than preach, then you need to do that…..” ( In other words, the calling better be real.)

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  52. Fisher: My current org has trained every worker to recognize and report child abuse, including grooming behavior.

    That is excellent, and I wish they would train kids on this stuff too, in age appropriate ways. How to report, etc. And then believe them when they do. How much could we head off at the pass by being proactive?

    I suspect working overseas has that similarity to working with kids, many people feel really passionate about the work and have no ulterior motives…but you need to be aware that you will also attract predators.

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  53. Hey Dee, As a fellow rookie hanger-on at the panel, rally and after-rally, I can honestly say that I was overwhelmed at the goodness of those who truly care about their neighbor. The contrast between the SBC and For Such A Time As This participants is a vivid illustration of the story of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritan was good because he had compassion which moved him to respond to an obvious victim. (It appears he was autonomous, but chose to love his neighbor anyway.) The 2 leaders saw the same event and did not respond with compassion. In the same way, the SBC’s self-serving responses and lack of responsiveness for years demonstrates that they care more about themselves than those they claim to shepherd. The SBC sex abuse scandal is the fruit of the SBC. And you will know them by their fruit. Thank you for being a shepherdess of the blog!

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  54. “Ashely Easter mentioned that this guy came up to her at the Rally, put out a microphone and interviewed her, asking question about her view of women in ministry and the LGBTQ question. She thought it was bizarre since was off topic.” (Dee)

    To the good ole boys in the Founders Ministries, ‘every’ woman who dares to speak about anything in SBC life is a liberal feminist. If you don’t walk within strict complementarian boundaries, if you dare to make a stand against anything as a woman (even against sexual abuse in churches), you are operating outside the role God designed for you.

    We talk a lot about the behavior of New Calvinists in this regard, but the old guard hyper boys like Ascol and crew at the Founders Ministries take bondage of female believers to a higher level. Visit one of their churches and you can cut the oppression with a knife; it is visible on the countenance of their women and children. Criticize it and you will end up with a mean-spirited “pastor” in your face and a microphone rammed down your throat. Yep, SBC’s “Old” Calvinists are different animals than the “New” Calvinists, but they are all pursuing the same ungodly goal within SBC to put female believers in their place. We need to pray for these poor souls – the women trapped by the Founders Ministries.

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  55. Ann: I think all pastors need to work for 2 years in behavioral health setting and see the reality of the epidemic of sexual abuse in this nation. They all live under rocks and act like this never happens in our society much less their churches!

    A lot of seminaries require Clinical Pastoral Education, or CPE, which I believe includes classroom training and supervised field work. There are also programs that use “contextual” in the name: the seminarian learns and works the the context of a high school environment, as a hospital chaplain, etc.

    It’s not a complete answer, but I have met seminarians who found CPE to be challenging, eye opening, and even exhausting. Maybe somebody here has completed one of these programs…?

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  56. Guest: They pretend what they want to be true is true; things that only benefit them.
    And they pretend what they don’t want to be true isn’t true.
    They despise anyone who will not pretend with them.

    This is 100% truth.

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  57. Max: To the good ole boys in the Founders Ministries, ‘every’ woman who dares to speak about anything in SBC life is a liberal feminist.

    Thank you for confirming that suspicion. This is why I am sometimes a stickler about using the word “feminist” to describe everything, good and bad, that somebody doesn’t want a woman to do. These guys would probably call Jane Whaley a feminist, but I sincerely doubt she claims that mantle. /sounding brass

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  58. Tom Ascol was denying yesterday affiliation with recently arrested Elder Stephen Bratton of Grace Family Baptist Church, the Founders guys were attacking Karen Swallow Prior for noting the church’s listing in the Founders directory.

    This was Ascol’s pal Voddie Baucham’s church!

    Here’s Ascol on the Founders coming events page, has a speaking engagement at the church later this year!

    https://founders.org/events/2019/10/semper-reformanda-houston-tx/

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  59. Friend: “Ashely Easter mentioned that this guy cam up to her at the Rally, put out a microphone and interviewed her, asking question about her view of women in ministry and the LGBTQ question.”
    You can only talk about crime if you also oppose X Y and Z?

    This is how they think. You have to check all their boxes before they will listen. And if you don’t check one you are immediately considered worthless or apostate.

    Hello groupthink. Hello to not learning a thing. Hello to bad decisions.

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  60. https://founders.org/interviews/tstt-sbc19-resolution-9-women-in-mission-mature-manhood-critical-race-theory/

    “Women have children, they birth babies, this still the way that God works in the world … this whole framework that we really need to empower women … being shaped more in our thinking and outlook by something other than the Bible … we are missing something about the created order … Isaiah talks about what happens when women rule …” (Jared Longshore, Tom Ascol, SBC Founders Ministries)

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  61. K.D.,

    I was born and raised in the Southern Baptist Convention and these are the traits it has had my whole life.

    Incest.
    Misogyny.
    Racism.
    Wife rape.
    Wife beating.
    Child abuse.
    Child rape.
    Pro-slavery.
    Pedophilia.
    Rubes.

    My grandfather was a Southern Baptist preacher and he believed black people were supposed to be slaves because of their idolatry.

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  62. Beakerj: drstevej,

    Hopefully! I just think anyone ministering to people, should actually know something about people & their lives before thinking they can speak for God, into those lives.

    I agree and churches should examine a candidates’ experience beyond just seminary credentials. When hiring pastoral I always looked for references in addition to ones listed by the candidate to get an unbiased viewpoint.

    I once checked a reference the candidate gave me and the person said,”You’re kidding, he listed me? No way should you hire him.” I told the candidate what I had learned and closed his file.

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  63. https://founders.org/interviews/tstt-sbc19-resolution-9-women-in-mission-mature-manhood-critical-race-theory/

    Tom Ascol is not real fond of the wishy-washy position of Russell Moore on the role of women in ministry. In the linked piece, he referred to Moore’s 2003 position:

    “(Russell Moore) said for a woman to claim that she was preaching or teaching to a mixed congregation in a church on the Lord’s Day under the approval of her elders would be like saying ‘Hey, I’m going to commit adultery but my own elders approve of it.'” (Tom Ascol, Founder Ministries)

    He then went on to say that Moore is now elusive when asked about the preaching/teaching role of women. Ascol was clearly not happy about Moore deviating from the comp script.

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  64. Max:
    https://founders.org/interviews/tstt-sbc19-resolution-9-women-in-mission-mature-manhood-critical-race-theory/

    Tom Ascol is not real fond of the wishy-washy position of Russell Moore on the role of women in ministry.In the linked piece, he referred to Moore’s 2003 position:

    “(Russell Moore) said for a woman to claim that she was preaching or teaching to a mixed congregation in a church on the Lord’s Day under the approval of her elders would be like saying ‘Hey, I’m going to commit adultery but my own elders approve of it.’” (Tom Ascol, Founder Ministries)

    He then went on to say that Moore is now elusive when asked about the preaching/teaching role of women.Ascol was clearly not happy about Moore deviating from the comp script.

    Max, to expand on what I heard Tom say at the debate with Dwight McKissic on women preaching Monday night before the convention started was:

    Since the early 2,000’s Russell Moore and the Bible, one of these have changed their position on women preaching and one hasn’t .

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  65. https://founders.org/interviews/tstt-sbc19-resolution-9-women-in-mission-mature-manhood-critical-race-theory/

    About the documentary that ‘may’ include the infamous interview by Longshore at the “For Such a Time As This Rally” at SBC-Birmingham:

    “We are being infiltrated within the SBC by ideologies that are godless … we’ve got a project underway that we think is going to be incredibly helpful … a documentary of what is going on” (Tom Ascol)

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  66. Lea,

    Max: “It’s sort of like Russell Moore and J.D. Greear ramrodding the SBC panel on abuse last week, when they should have just sat down, shut up, and let the women handle it.”

    Leah: “Both of them like to hear themselves talk way too much to do that!

    If any of these men were capable of listening to women, they might not have such a big problem on their hands.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    the few women allowed a voice speak for millions of women and girls. since what affects the little toe ends up affecting the entire body, really, they speak for everyone. an enormous responsibility.

    it’s obviously necessary for them to interrupt. nothing impolite about it.

    it’s simply an inherent part of a discussion, whether private or public in front of an audience or broadcast through the media.

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  67. Estelle: A total invasion of people’s privacy and right to choose where and when to reveal such personal and sensitive information.

    It was disgraceful and proves how little the people in the SBC understand abuse and/or actually care about the abused. Praying was just a tick on their to do list.

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  68. elastigirl: it’s obviously necessary for them to interrupt. nothing impolite about it.

    I agree with you on nothing impolite (or impolitely F Politeness as they say one particular podcast).

    However, have you ever tried to interrupt a man who is determined to hear himself talk? I personally find it unproductive and irritating. They will just talk louder.

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  69. Max: We are being infiltrated within the SBC by ideologies that are godless … we’ve got a project underway that we think is going to be incredibly helpful … a documentary of what is going on” (Tom Ascol)

    Well he sounds fun.

    These men think women having a voice is godless. They aren’t reading their own bibles.

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  70. Lea: Thanks for quoting Max, I don’t have time to listen.

    Don’t do it – it will make your blood boil! I listened with much weeping and gnashing of teeth … my dear wife stepped into my office a few times to make sure I was still alive – she’s such a “complement” to my life.

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  71. Pingback: Linkathon! - Phoenix Preacher

  72. Lea: However, have you ever tried to interrupt a man who is determined to hear himself talk? I personally find it unproductive and irritating. They will just talk louder.

    There was a famous character (and not in the good sense) in local fandom in the Eighties and Nineties who was like that. To the point his name became a verb meaning “to get cornered by a motormouth”. (I’ve still got the buttons about him that got passed around.)

    Not only would he “talk louder”, if you yelled back at him he’d stop in mid-word as long as you were out-louding him, but the first time you faltered he’d resume at the exact syllable where he’d left off.

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  73. Headless Unicorn Guy,
    P.S. The only repellent that worked was the song “The Devil Came Down to Georgia” by the Charlie Daniels Band. He hated that song to the point he couldn’t stand to be within earshot of it. Charlie Daniels got real popular for a while.

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  74. Benn: Since the early 2,000’s Russell Moore and the Bible, one of these have changed their position on women preaching and one hasn’t .

    Since the late 1970’s the SBC and the Bible, one of these have changed their position on women preaching and one hasn’t (Moore’s current position echos that of the pre-CR SBC).

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  75. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    I mean, I generally just do my best to stay out of conversations with people like that I definitely don’t bother arguing with them.

    Now, this is a different scenario but to invite a person to speak on a topic, and then to refuse to give them time to speak is such bad manners it would probably throw me. I do have to get past the manners thing sometimes, and I think women are more socialized this way, and more penalized for interrupting or standing up for themselves than men are so it takes some doing to get past the conditioning…

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  76. Luckyforward: JD Greear asked victims of sex abuse to stand and be prayed for.

    Prayer is the SBC “salve” for everything . . . Because something has been prayed for, prayed about, and prayed over, it then becomes God’s issue. Add in neo-Calvinism and it all become’s God’s will. While this does not address the concerns regarding sexual abuse in the church, prayer just makes everyone “feel so good” by “giving it up to God.”

    From my experience, “I’ll Pray For You(TM)” is Christianese for doing nothing and feeling all warm and fuzzy and Godly about it.

    To paraphrase Babylon-5:
    “You have a saying: I’ll Pray For You.’
    We also have a saying: PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!”

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  77. Lea: These men think women having a voice is godless.

    Probably why Beth Moore canceled her talk and left SBC-Birmingham abruptly, tweeting this the next day:

    “Herein is liberty: y’all can have it. Just give me Jesus.”

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  78. Max: Makes you wonder about the real reason behind the purging of 1,000 career missionaries at IMB (primarily non-Calvinist).

    I suspect I’m simply paraphrasing you when I say: I don’t think there’s much doubt what the real reason was.

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  79. FW Rez: Since the late 1970’s the SBC and the Bible, one of these have changed their position on women preaching and one hasn’t (Moore’s current position echos that of the pre-CR SBC).

    You appear to suggest that the quote was mine, it was not, , i didn’t make the news at the convention, I just said what I heard

    But what you say is true, in a narrow window of time, what 15-20 years of the 175 year history of the SBC they did appear to allow churches to ordain women, i’ll Give you that

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  80. Lea,

    “However, have you ever tried to interrupt a man who is determined to hear himself talk? I personally find it unproductive and irritating. They will just talk louder.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    like the men on sharktank, mr. wonderful in particular? Lori Greiner and Barbara Corcoran do pretty well, but it is clearly difficult.

    if necessary, the woman can stand up straight, tall, and broad (a state of mind more than a state of physical size) with all the power and authority in her human status and insist on her right to speak.

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  81. elastigirl,

    “if necessary, the woman can stand up straight, tall, and broad (a state of mind more than a state of physical size) with all the power and authority in her human status and insist on her right to speak.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    and she can ask God/Jesus/Holy Spirit to join her. “Stand with me, God. Speak through me, God.”

    the holy spirit is an advocate, a source of explosive power. i believe a very underutilized resource.

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  82. Dee in original post: However, I understand how such trauma can radically affect how people respond and view the church.

    Not going to use the “b” word. (Not the one you think of immediately). But back in the day, when I blogged, it was because of this trauma and other traumas that people were subject to. I equated it with the oppressors giving people “b” waters to drink calling it sweet and demanding that those they forced the ‘b’ water on to “be sweet”.

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  83. Max,

    Max.

    Could there just be a simple reason behind the SBC political sub-structures, like TFM?

    I looked at the Founders emblems and after a long…oh what am I thinking here..maybe 1-2 seconds, I assumed something like this:

    1.They are a bunch of Masons.
    2.Some more are non-Masons but need to get along with their Mason buddies.
    3.And a few more, even if they don’t fit into categories 1-2, are influenced by Southern Masonic social attitudes.

    And that’s why even their emblems look like a Masonic knockoffs.

    And what’s really going on here is not SBC unique, but another garden variety American fraternal organization, operating a State within a State, for general personal advancement of members. And for the general detriment of specific non-members.

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  84. DebWill,

    “Rachael Denhollander was interviewed by Judy Woodruff on PBS NewsHour on June 12 about SBC response on abuse.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    what a look on her face. steely and straightforward and angry, unsweetened.

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  85. elastigirl:
    what a look on her face. steely and straightforward and angry, unsweetened.

    Oooh, nice. I’ll have to look this up.

    If I were her or Beth Moore I would be done with these people, personally. I don’t trust any of them. But everybody has to get to these places in their own time.

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  86. DebWill,

    “Rachael Denhollander was interviewed by Judy Woodruff on PBS NewsHour on June 12 about SBC response on abuse.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    Judy Woodruff said for the record that they had asked JD Greear to participate but he declined.

    Perhaps he and his handlers realize that he and they are no match for Rachel Denhollander.

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  87. Friend: Wanting an end to abuse is like wanting clean water. We all need clean water. Who cares if it’s a child asking for it, or a vegan, or a combat veteran, or Elvis? Why set out to discredit people with gotcha questions and deliberate (mis)labeling?

    What can a person honestly think except that they love abuse and wish for it to continue?

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  88. SiteSeer,

    “What can a person honestly think except that they love abuse and wish for it to continue?”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    i think they are unaware of cause and effect. kind of like 3 and 4 year-olds. that actions and inactions have consequences.

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  89. elastigirl: i think they are unaware of cause and effect. kind of like 3 and 4 year-olds. that actions and inactions have consequences.

    Maybe DELIBERATELY unaware.

    Hard to be aware of something when being unaware is to your personal advantage/enrichment.

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  90. Mara: Dee in original post: His parting shot: “You were right about Mark Driscoll.”

    Dee and the Wartburgers have also been right about Mahaney, MacDonald, Hybels, Piper, Mohler, Greear, etc. etc. It takes awhile for their idolaters to realize that.

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  91. Brian: Matthew 18

    Was this passage even in the Bible before churches started using it as a Get Into Jail Free card? The way it’s applied is something I don’t even recognize from years of Bible study as a kid.

    Hope you are feeling better.

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  92. Lea: If I were her or Beth Moore I would be done with these people

    The reality for Beth Moore is that LifeWay, the publishing arm of the SBC sells LOTS of her stuff. She needs them to sell her stuff; LifeWay needs her to make money from her stuff. Interesting if the SBC was so upset by Ms. Moore’s teaching, it would seem they might just vote to stop selling her publications. (The SBC did just that with volume 1 of the Broadman Bible Commentary.) But in this case, LifeWay needs the money from what they sell of Ms. Moore’s; oddly, they need each other . . .

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  93. Max: I wonder if the microphone was really wired to anything. Perhaps they just used it to intimidate folks (“we’re going to air your words”), without really recording anything … just a dead mic as dead as they are.

    I’m sure it was. It’s very easy to get footage that’s broadcast quality from a cell phone. But Founders ought to drop these ambush interviews because they’re wrong, just wrong.

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  94. brad/futuristguy: I know a very few who already work on such concerns as racism in the SBC, immigration and refugee ministries, church planting, missions. They are trustworthy and will act righteously regardless of what happens officially.

    If they’re not Purged for Thougtcrime, that is.

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  95. Max,

    I just went to look at Founders’ church sesrch. I noticed two things:

    Miller Valley Baptist of Prescott is listed. That’s where Tom Chantry did his abuse.

    Grace Covenant Church of Gilbert, AZ is listed. John Giarrizzo has been up to his eyeballs in the Chantry mess.

    Granted, this is a self-selected group and Founders says they don’t bet the churches. but really? Oh, btw, I only looked at Arizona.

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  96. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    I think your looking at it from a zero sum point of view.

    My understanding of your comment is a vetting process should have found and rejected acts of child molestation. Child molestation if present, is unacceptable, if incorporated into the whole. The whole becomes invalidated by an unacceptable part.

    I’m suggesting this is a system founded on Moral Relativity. Adherence to specific Confessions, as derived from earlier Cannons, is the desired whole. It is godly.

    If there are unfortunate parts, (child molestation) they are out-weighed by the whole. They do not negate the godliness of adhering to proper Confession.

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  97. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: It’s very easy to get footage that’s broadcast quality from a cell phone.

    I suspect that’s what they were doing at SBC-Birmingham. In the Ascol piece linked earlier in this thread, he said “We are being infiltrated within the SBC by ideologies that are godless … we’ve got a project underway that we think is going to be incredibly helpful … a documentary of what is going on.”

    Seems to me that the way they infiltrated the “For Such a Time As This Rally” was intimidating and well, godless. The Founders ought to know something about infiltrating an organization with ideologies – they’ve been conducting a stealth and deception campaign within SBC for years – they call it a “Quiet Revolution”. Yep, Southern Baptists need to know what is going on!

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  98. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I just went to look at Founders’ church search. I noticed two things:

    Miller Valley Baptist of Prescott is listed. That’s where Tom Chantry did his abuse.

    Grace Covenant Church of Gilbert, AZ is listed. John Giarrizzo has been up to his eyeballs in the Chantry mess.

    Yet another Founders’ church in the news: “Over the weekend local media reported the arrest of Stephen Bratton, a former pastor at Grace Family Baptist Church in Houston, on charges of sexual assault against a teenage relative for five years. Grace Family Baptist Church is a five-point Calvinist congregation affiliated with the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention. The church released a statement saying that Bratton confessed May 16 to two pastors, who immediately filed a police report.”

    https://baptistnews.com/article/camp-staffer-pastor-and-former-intern-face-charges-amid-southern-baptist-convention-abuse-crisis/#.XQlP2hZKipo

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  99. Lea: I’d say Beth Moore has more power than Lifeway at this point.

    Agreed. I look for Ms. Moore to part ways with LifeWay. She has learned that they are not the way nor the life. But, they may pull a smooth one and sever the relationship before she does.

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  100. Max: I suspect that’s what they were doing at SBC-Birmingham.In the Ascol piece linked earlier in this thread, he said “We are being infiltrated within the SBC by ideologies that are godless … we’ve got a project underway that we think is going to be incredibly helpful … a documentary of what is going on.”

    Seems to me that the way they infiltrated the “For Such a Time As This Rally” was intimidating and well, godless.The Founders ought to know something about infiltrating an organization with ideologies – they’ve been conducting a stealth and deception campaign within SBC for years – they call it a “Quiet Revolution”.Yep, Southern Baptists need to know what is going on!

    Some people can profess the right conservative doctrines, yet not understand a word of them. The Pharisees, of course, were Exhibit A. I tend to be on the conservative side, no liberal by a million miles. Believe Jesus is absolutely the only way to heaven, that He was and is God Himself and created the universe and all other universes that could possibly be, that the Bible’s a reliable source, God-breathed, that the Lord is active in the hearts of His people and that Jesus will return one day to set things right. But I find a lot of these people who would line up with these same things and could sign any good, solid doctrinal statement don’t really believe a word of it, because it hasn’t changed them. Many of them act exactly like the ones described towards the end of Romans 1. And to paraphrase Jesus’ little brother James, if that faith doesn’t change someone, they don’t have that faith. They’re just all worthless talk.

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  101. Law Prof: Some people can profess the right conservative doctrines, yet not understand a word of them.

    The disconnect between orthodoxy and orthopraxy; an obsession with narrow boundaries of doctrine that stunt the expression of love and grace. Though I am not a free-will, pre-tribulation rapturist, dispensationalist, futurist, almost everyone I fellowship with holds to one of more of the doctrines that I do not hold. My boundaries are the historical creeds (Apostles, Nicean, Athanasian); these offer a broad, safe pasture in which to feed with other sheep. Whatever doctrinal emphasis I observe, I look for orthopraxy; do they look and sound like Jesus in their treatment of Christians and non-Christians? If not, well…

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  102. Law Prof: … I find a lot of these people who would line up with these same things and could sign any good, solid doctrinal statement don’t really believe a word of it, because it hasn’t changed them … to paraphrase Jesus’ little brother James, if that faith doesn’t change someone, they don’t have that faith …

    Sadly, you have described most churchmen that I have met in my Christian journey … including several church leaders. They have a religion, but no evidence of a relationship.

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  103. Some years ago I was functionally excommunicated from a church as they transitioned to a more authoritarian polity (they are now 9-Marks). Several years after my separation I received a phone call from a former elder (we had known each other for 25 years). I had not heard from him in several years, but he was very sincerely concerned for my soul–he asked if I believed the gospel, if I was a Christian, how I knew I was saved. He suggested that I meet with the elders of the church that I had been separated from so that they could tell me whether I was saved or not. He asked again if I understood the gospel, so I asked him to tell me what he meant by ‘gospel’. When he was done explaining, I told him that the gospel he described did not sound like good news to me. BTW–I believe the gospel proclaimed in Scripture is Good News! Seems, however, there are a lot of hybrids out there.

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  104. Lea,

    I’ll agree with complicity also. It’s throwing victims “under the bus” to maintain their world, gains, possessions, etc.

    They’re now part of the process. Removing themselves from it require humility and repentance.

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  105. Cousin of Eutychus,

    Serious question, did the church deacon say why they waited years to contact you again?

    My Spidey senses tell me that when you didn’t go back asking for forgiveness after a long period of time, they felt the loss of control.

    Calling you back to check up on your assurance of salvation feels like an attempt to regain control.

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  106. dee,

    “How can he explain the problems in the SBC to NPR? It sounds just plain creepy. “We really are against child sex abuse. We voted on it.” Can you imagine having to vote on the issue?”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    yes, much safer inside their bubble, where they can see themselves as the paragon of progress, worthy of self-congratulations.

    i’m remembering to when my kids had their first tiny taste of solid food (rice cereal), and oh, how we applauded.

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  107. dee: “We really are against child sex abuse. We voted on it.”

    After 150 years, the SBC finally voted to repent of their racial sins – SBC founders were slave holders. The Founders’ theology (Calvinism) convinced them that sovereign God was on their side in the War until early confederate victories turned to defeat. Yep, it takes a while for Southern Baptists to get around to voting on things … kind of distracts from their attempts to appear sincere.

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  108. Brian: Serious question, did the church deacon say why they waited years to contact you again?

    My Spidey senses tell me that when you didn’t go back asking for forgiveness after a long period of time, they felt the loss of control.

    Calling you back to check up on your assurance of salvation feels like an attempt to regain control.

    Brian, great questions. I tried several times after I left the church to meet with the elders for reconciliation purposes–these were men I had known for 20+ years. Not to try to get back into the church, simply to affirm what was good in each one and to move forward without any issues left unresolved. They refused to meet with me. So, the call surprised me. They had no interest in me returning to church; I think the former elder’s doctrine of salvation included a piece where one had to be in submission to elders in a local body or your soul was in danger. He was genuinely concerned for my soul; I felt a loss for him that he thought salvation is so tenuous as to be dependent upon more than Jesus.

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  109. dee: The Founders have Fred Malone who is part of the lovely leadership of ARBCA.

    Yes, Mr. Malone is on the Founders Team. Didn’t he have something to do with the Tom Chantry mess? What a charming bunch of characters there … not.

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  110. Linn: . I had to seek outside counseling for help with PTSD after I returned from my first assignment because i lived in a country where a civil war was raging. I still get nervous when the police helicopter goes overhead. You just can’t say “trust God” to a sexual abuse victim and hope that everything will be hunky dory. It’s actually the cruelest thing you can say.

    Agreed. Ive suffered from persecution “over there” then returned home only to discover the neo-cals were taking over of our churches. Was totally blindsided by that and suffered shunning alongside many others. Two of my friends were fired from their neo cal churches. Finding TWW has been very helpful. I learned we are not alone.

    Im sorry about your PTSD by the way. I notice my anxiety rises whenever i walk into a crowd of christians at an american church. Perfect love casts out fear, right? I guess that says something about how little love is in some communities.

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  111. Law Prof: But I find a lot of these people who would line up with these same things and could sign any good, solid doctrinal statement don’t really believe a word of it, because it hasn’t changed them. Many of them act exactly like the ones described towards the end of Romans 1. And to paraphrase Jesus’ little brother James, if that faith doesn’t change someone, they don’t have that faith. They’re just all worthless talk.

    Amen to that…

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  112. elastigirl: Judy Woodruff said for the record that they had asked JD Greear to participate but he declined.

    Perhaps he and his handlers realize that he and they are no match for Rachel Denhollander.

    That’s precisely why they declined.

    They knew damn good and well that Greear would have gotten his clock cleaned.

    Then like Abimelech (Judges chap. 9), he might have had to call his armour bearer to run him through with a sword so it couldn’t be said that Denhollander kicked his a$$ in a verbal exchange.

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  113. Fisher,

    “I notice my anxiety rises whenever i walk into a crowd of christians at an american church. Perfect love casts out fear, right?”
    +++++++++++++++

    there are many, many things in life that are completely untouched by and outside of whatever “perfect love casts out fear” means.

    it means something.

    i don’t think it means what christians assume it means. it’s far from being an all-purpose true-ism for practical living.

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  114. I read all the comments! Do I get a prize?

    “The Founders ought to know something about infiltrating an organization with ideologies – they’ve been conducting a stealth and deception campaign within SBC for years – they call it a “Quiet Revolution”. ”

    Well, if their infiltration is causing the hemorrhaging of SBC membership, I can’t complain. Literally. I’m one who was chased out by a stealth 9 Marks takeover, and Praise God! We ended up in a great egalitarian church. Now I even help admin over at Facebook Group “Biblical Christian Egalitarians “. I meet so many people who were pushed out of a 9 Marks type church. I’d thank them for sending people our way out of the SBC, except all of us are traumatized by spiritual abuse and it takes a few years to get back in the groove.

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  115. Alana Childers,

    “I meet so many people who were pushed out of a 9 Marks type church. I’d thank them for sending people our way out of the SBC, except all of us are traumatized by spiritual abuse and it takes a few years to get back in the groove.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    i’m happy for your freedom! the journey is rough. it’s worth it, though. free… free…! i imagine you look backward and marvel at how awesome freedom is, as you experience now. (correct?)

    at least, that’s what i do.

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  116. Cousin of Eutychus: I asked him to tell me what he meant by ‘gospel’. When he was done explaining, I told him that the gospel he described did not sound like good news to me.

    You may have noted that the New Cals almost never define “Gospel”. I did see Greear define it properly once, but for the most part, they go on and on about being the only ones with the “Gospel”, but they won’t tell anyone what they mean by that. I’m even surprised that elder tried to explain it to you instead of just insisting you come to the meeting to “find out”. Pretty sure that meeting would have been all about you not submitting to their authority.

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  117. __

    “Have Truth Will Travel?”

    hmmm…

    Creating a new Baptist convention without stealth Calvinism has become an imperative. To hide one’s theology from others while pursuing Calvinistic soteriological supremacy within the SBC 501c3 organization is grounds for a grand deception. This is what the Calvinists are apparently currently doing within the SBC. (and unfortunately have been doing so for quite some time) What are they trying to hide? A unified SBC is not possible when you are running the makings of a masked quantified lie.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUVevDZVMM
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bcvxX8Jd8

    ;~)§

    – –

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  118. TS00,

    The original goal of John Calvin was to encourage the French King (and other prominent men) to reform the Catholic Church in France. When that effort failed so miserably, John Calvin sought to replace Catholicism in Geneva all together using a modified Augustinian system of theology. Calvinism, (codified In His ICR) A competing theological religious system ‘with’ Catholicism, was codified five hundred years ago by documents such as Dort and Westminster. There are those who’s long standing hope of unification of the two systems is considered by some as not far off.

    ;~)§

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  119. elastigirl: there are many, many things in life that are completely untouched by and outside of whatever “perfect love casts out fear” means.

    it means something.

    i don’t think it means what christians assume it means. it’s far from being an all-purpose true-ism for practical living.

    in my experience, that phrase means that When I really experience God’s love my fear goes way down. Not that it goes away, because there are still things out there that are fearful for good reasons. I will say this though, that when I am in groups of people who follow Jesus and they accept me for who I am and I accept them for who they are without arguing over Doctrine I definitely do feel a whole lot less fearful. Kind of how I feel showing up and commenting on TWW.

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  120. Brian,

    Very late to this post; you are in my prayers. I hope that you are recovering well.

    Max:
    https://founders.org/interviews/tstt-sbc19-resolution-9-women-in-mission-mature-manhood-critical-race-theory/

    “The SBC can be wrapped up and thrown onto the ash heap of human history and the Kingdom of God will not miss a beat.” (Tom Ascol)

    Finally, something I can agree with Ascol on! AMEN!!

    regarding the evidence of tone-deafness and short-term CYA “protect the appearances” thinking among the leadership, this OT text came to mind:

    And [YHWH} said, “Go, and say to this people:

    “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
    keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
    Make the heart of this people dull,
    and their ears heavy,
    and blind their eyes;
    lest they see with their eyes,
    and hear with their ears,
    and understand with their hearts,
    and turn and be healed.”

    Then I said, “How long, O Lord?”
    And he said:
    “Until cities lie waste
    without inhabitant,
    and houses without people,
    and the land is a desolate waste,
    and the Lord removes people far away,
    and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
    And though a tenth remain in it,
    it will be burned again,
    like a terebinth or an oak,
    whose stump remains
    when it is felled.”
    The holy seedg is its stump.

    Mohler was right that it looks like wrath is coming. But afterward a remnant will remain.

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  121. Mr. Jesperson,

    I would affirm all that you say. I would add that there are many good people within the institutional church who simply cannot imagine it being anything but the True Church of God; thus, even when they see enormous issues, they cannot imagine leaving. ‘Where would they go?’ as one snake slyly smirked.

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  122. Raswhiting: Rebecca Davis has exposed this Desiring God wickedness about empathy:
    http://www.heresthejoy.com/2019/06/your-empathy-is-a-sin-a-response-to-desiring-god/

    I agree with Rebecca, the emphasis on what terrible people was the worst part for me, or the most telling (of course, I couldn’t read the rest because it was such drivel and way too long).

    This is a man who cannot sit and feel for others. Period. So he’s made a sin of it.

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  123. Fisher: I will say this though, that when I am in groups of people who follow Jesus and they accept me for who I am and I accept them for who they are without arguing over Doctrine I definitely do feel a whole lot less fearful.

    I think this is often taken to mean that if ‘I’ have perfect love, I will not feel fear. Now I’m wondering if it’s really if ‘others have love FOR me’ I will not feel the fear? IDK. I think you need love and trust in that love. But then in the passage it starts talking about fear and punishment, which tends to get left off the truism…of course you might fear punishment? It’s an interesting passage at any rate.

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  124. Lea,

    Fwiw, I’ve understood this passage to mean that God’s perfect love for us drives out fear, because we relate to him not through the fear of punishment for every mistake or shortcoming we have, but rather through the knowledge that we are accepted in love.

    By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us.

    It goes on to say we ought to love one another in the same way. It gets difficult when the control/punishment take the place of love. The whole environment changes.

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  125. elastigirl: all that’s left to say is “well, i guess it sucks to be you. but it gives glory to God.”

    elastigirl: alright…..

    maybe i shouldn’t comment in the middle of the night, when i’m feeling the full weight of unedited my convictions (along with the weight of the world on my shoulders).

    Please don’t apologize . . . I think it was a powerful and accurate comment. I shared it with my sister, whom you always remind me of. 😉

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  126. Friend: You can only talk about crime if you also oppose X Y and Z?

    Wanting an end to abuse is like wanting clean water. We all need clean water. Who cares if it’s a child asking for it, or a vegan, or a combat veteran, or Elvis? Why set out to discredit people with gotcha questions and deliberate (mis)labeling?

    Because it works on those in the fundagelical bubble. Like Pavlov’s dogs, they have been trained to salivate hate the moment anyone suggests support for homosexuality or abortion. No discussion allowed. No compassion for people struggling with life-shattering issues. Just hate. And ignore anything they have to say, however accurate or helpful.

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  127. Max,

    Take a look back at my posts on Chantry-especially the one called The Case of the Missing Red Binder. (I’m an Agatha Christie fan.) The leadership in ARBCA have been well aware of the mess with Cahtnry for years and they chose to overlook it. There is a reason that ARBCA churches, which have found out about the deception are leaving the denomination. IMO any church which remains must have to twist themselves in knots to justify the mess.

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  128. Cousin of Eutychus: . He was genuinely concerned for my soul; I felt a loss for him that he thought salvation is so tenuous as to be dependent upon more than Jesus.

    I think there is a bit more going on here with his *concern.* There is a touch of arrogance which colors his concern. That arrogance colors his inability to see beyond his paradigm. *We know! And we want you to ko that you are going to hell unless you see it our way.* He actually believes that he hold they keys to the kingdom and he will one day have to look at himself and face the fact that he was playing God.

    I judge actions, not salvation. I put that one in God’s Hands and am grateful that I can do sol.

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  129. Sòpwith:
    __

    “Have Truth Will Travel?”

    hmmm…

    Creating a new Baptist convention without stealth Calvinism has become an imperative. To hide one’s theology from others while pursuing Calvinistic soteriological supremacy within the SBC 501c3 organization is grounds for a grand deception. This is what the Calvinists are apparently currently doing within the SBC. (and unfortunately have been doing so for quite some time) What are they trying to hide? A unified SBC is not possible when you are running the makings of a masked quantified lie.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUVevDZVMM
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bcvxX8Jd8

    ;~)§

    – –

    One of the things that became apparent to me at the convention in Birmingham was an underlying theme of the battle is over, let’s stop fighting about Calvinism.
    I love the line from the movie gladiator with Russell Crowe, I think he characters name was Qintus,he said A man should know when he is conquered, and Maximus ( Russell Crowe ) said Would you?

    The powers that be in Birmingham was saying basically the same thing, the calvinaztion of the SBC is now totally done, with the last two seminary hires of Calvinist presidents

    I think the cal’s mindset is ok we’ve won, it’s ours, let now try to keep the thing intact.

    Most everyone sees the UMC won’t survive the break in SSM

    They don’t want the non cal’s to leave

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  130. SiteSeer: Fwiw, I’ve understood this passage to mean that God’s perfect love for us drives out fear

    IF that were all, it would mean none of us would fear because God loves us? There is some element on us it seems. Accept love? Eh.

    I have so often heard it with an action to be taken, and unfortunately with a judgment for people who DO fear.

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  131. Luckyforward: A great article that sets the historical context for how the SBC views women, which issues into their responses regarding sexual abuse: https://baptistnews.com/article/the-wheels-still-in-spin-beth-moore-reignites-a-stalled-debate/?utm_source=Baptist+News+Global+Contacts&utm_campaign=6fcefb7d1c-EMAIL_CAM

    From the article:

    “I had the eye opening experience of my life in 2016. All these years I’d given the benefit of the doubt that these men were the way they were because they were trying to be obedient to Scripture. Then I realized it was not over Scripture at all. It was over sin. It was over power. It was over misogyny. Sexism. It was about arrogance. About protecting systems. It involved covering abuses & misuses of power. Shepherds guarding other shepherds instead of guarding the sheep.” (Beth Moore)

    Yep, I’d say she got that right.

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  132. Fisher,

    “when I am in groups of people who follow Jesus and they accept me for who I am and I accept them for who they are without arguing over Doctrine I definitely do feel a whole lot less fearful. Kind of how I feel showing up and commenting on TWW.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    that’s great, that you feel that here.

    i just love being able to say pretty close to exactly what i think, and wonder about, and it is accepted and oftentimes responded to.

    i love it that challenges to the christian belief status quo(s) don’t frighten or alarm people here. (at least, that’s how it seems to me).

    getting back to “perfect love casts out fear”… i don’t recall exactly the passage it comes from, but my memory is that it’s just kind of bonus idea thrown in. my guess is that Paul/the writer is alluding to his/her experience of being touched by God’s presence in an extraordinarily meaningful way, to the point of tears.

    coming from a charismatic/pentecostal background, this is not an unusual experience. it’s like a huge soft raindrop falls on you and it’s full of love / being loved, and it flows into all the cracks and open wounds of worry, doubt, pain, cynicism, anger…they are soothed, they don’t matter any more. it is so powerful you can’t help but tear up. it’s everything you ever longed for. indeed, fear is cast out.

    …whew…it’s almost enough to make me want to go back to church (the safest one, in my church-going career, that is). but ironically, i would have to compromise too many of my principles to do so.

    extremely thought-provoking.

    but there is nothing new under the sun. these experiences in a God-context have always been (i reckon exponentially moreso since the day of Pentecost, or whatever that remarkable event was)

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  133. elastigirl: my guess is that Paul/the writer is alluding to his/her experience of being touched by God’s presence in an extraordinarily meaningful way

    I think it makes more sense as a temporary thing, looking at it this way. A moment when love casts out fear, not a lifetime.

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  134. Luckyforward,

    God article. Thank you. I think Greear is going to have trouble in the future reconciling the *elders to put in context* when a woman speaks. She did not need them to put it in context because she already did or they wouldn’t have let her speak. Think about it. It almost seems a bit silly. Greear jumping up and down, saying *I’m still here. Nothing to worry about. I;ll make it alright.”

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  135. RE: “article on Desiring God entitled “The Enticing Sin of Empathy,”

    Anyone who tries to be C.S. Lewis should just stop. It’s not clever or funny anymore. And if that was their point, that showing empathy and compassion is a sin, everyone who calls themselves a Christ follower should be condemning that view. It’s sick in the heart.

    RE: Founders

    Founders of what exactly, hatred toward abuse victims?

    I look at these people and once again I am glad that I escaped their clutches and that I am as old as I am. Good grief!

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  136. __

    “Heeding The Divine Call?”

    hmmm…

    The Lord Jesus Christ has bid His servants to go out to the hiways and byways, and bid them ALL come…

    That the Calvinist has, by his man-made theology system, limited that call, —to what extent he be a limiter of the work of Christ, he has summarily closed the door to himself and unfortunately all who hear him.

    The Calvinist’s gospel starts off as declaring all who hear their message are depraved, and possibly personally limited in the reception of the sovereign grace of God, as to be saved.

    However, Jesus taught all of His disciples that the start of His gospel begins : “God so loved the world…”. AND Asking His hearers to believe in Him, —Those who did, and do now are promised by Jesus Himself eternal life in His Father’s Heaven.

    Who are you going to listen to? John Calvin, who’s bones lie in the earth, or the Lord Jesus Christ from Heaven, who’s blood, when it covers our immortal souls satisfies the very law of God, and delivers us unto everlasting life?

    You Decide.

    Es algo sobrenatural ya que la presencia de Dios se manifiesta en este lugar…

    ATB

    Sòpy

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HzoNKuymO0U

    ;~)§

    – –

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  137. Pingback: Malevolence, incompetence, and ignorance in the SBC concerning abuse — SBC Voices

  138. elastigirl,

    oy….. i don’t mean to grandstand with my experiences. this is nothing unique — zillions of people throughout history have experienced this.

    no, i haven’t talked to them all, but i reason faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (& Junia!) and Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit can’t have survived this long on cerebral terms. because it worked cerebrally, like an algebraic equation.

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  139. Another shot at SBC leaders from Beth Moore:

    “I mean, be against beer drinking if that’s your conviction. But keep your hands off children” (Beth Moore, June 17 tweet).

    A good teacher, she has a way of painting word pictures. Actually, one of the best SBC preachers out there 🙂

    What Ms. Moore may not know is that SBC’s New Calvinists don’t hold to the same beer-drinking conviction which once defined Southern Baptists (don’t drink, don’t dance, don’t cuss, don’t gamble, etc.). I often see new reformers in my area toting cases of beer at WalMart … there’s even a Calvinus Beer brand (no kidding).

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  140. Lea,

    Lea,

    Lea: SiteSeer: Fwiw, I’ve understood this passage to mean that God’s perfect love for us drives out fear

    IF that were all, it would mean none of us would fear because God loves us? There is some element on us it seems. Accept love? Eh.

    I have so often heard it with an action to be taken, and unfortunately with a judgment for people who DO fear.

    I believe that Siteseer means that understanding the perfect love of God drives out any fear of how we will deal with us. That does not imply that we will never experience fear, particularly of untrustworthy people.

    And yet, in a sense, that perfect trust in God can also assist us in overcoming fear and doing what needs to be done. Like the many who have outed their abuser, or those who have stood up to illegitimate authority. Our knowledge of God’s promises for the future enable us to endure present suffering – the greatest example being the many who have calmly endured suffering and death for the sake of their faith.

    We must never allow anyone to beat us up over feeling fear, or any other emotion. We cannot control emotions, but we can choose whether or not we allow them to limit or control us. How often did David bring his ‘unrighteous’ emotions before God? I find my prayers looking like many of his psalms – I bring to God my fear, anger, frustration, despair, etc. and let him ‘cast out’ the chaff and strengthen my faith.

    I do not believe we need to fear experiencing fear; we just need to know who to take it to, and allow him to cast it out of the way so that it does not remain a stumblingblock.

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  141. Luckyforward:
    A great article that sets the historical context for how the SBC views women, which issues into their responses regarding sexual abuse:https://baptistnews.com/article/the-wheels-still-in-spin-beth-moore-reignites-a-stalled-debate/?utm_source=Baptist+News+Global+Contacts&utm_campaign=6fcefb7d1c-EMAIL_CAM

    Thanks for sharing this article. It’s amazed these men don’t collapse at how silly their arguments are, both that women can’t preach at all, and that women can preach if all made up ‘biblical conditions’ are met : “First, a male elder must establish context by introducing the female speaker. Second, the sermon must be followed by words of exhortation and application delivered by a male elder. So long as everybody realizes that the authority of the congregation’s male leadership is not being usurped, Greear says, women like Moore are free to preach.”

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  142. dee: It almost seems a bit silly.

    I feel the same, it’s silly. Ridiculous arguments against women preaching and even more ridiculous when people list out supposed made up ‘biblical conditions’ that make it all ok.

    Good article, though.

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  143. ishy,

    Okay, have to ask. Why do they choose the acronym NAMB to represent themselves when it is similar to NAMBLA? NAMBLA has been all over talk shows so hard to believe they never heard of it. Just bad association especially when they want to distance themselves from the sex abuse scandals or one would think they would. If you don’t know what NAMBLA is, you can Google it. Just wondering the obvious.

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  144. dee: I judge actions, not salvation. I put that one in God’s Hands and am grateful that I can do sol.

    Great statement. I wonder if we will ever put down our handheld buzzers in our 2000-year-old game of Who’s Going to Hell?

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  145. Lily Rose: Okay, have to ask. Why do they choose the acronym NAMB to represent themselves when it is similar to NAMBLA?

    Because CHRISTIANS(TM) have shown time and again that they ARE that clueless.

    NAMBLA (despite its skewering on South Park) is well outside the Christian Bubble, so It Does Not Exist.

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  146. Friend: dee: I judge actions, not salvation. I put that one in God’s Hands and am grateful that I can do sol.

    Great statement. I wonder if we will ever put down our handheld buzzers in our 2000-year-old game of Who’s Going to Hell?

    NO.

    Because the game of “ME SHEEP! YOU GOAT! HAW! HAW! HAW!” is Soooooo Delicious to the Ego.

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  147. Max: Noevangelical: Anyone who tries to be C.S. Lewis should just stop.
    The guy comes across as screwy rather than Screwtape. He’s been hanging out with Piper too long.

    AKA “There already was a C.S.Lewis. You’re NOT Him!”

    I have seen this dynamic in attempts at Christian writing (including a couple truly awful Christian(TM) My Little Pony fanfics). I call it “C.S.Lewis in Reverse” — deliberately trying to imitate Lewis’s quasi-allegorical approach and style (with a little more Christianese vocabulary). And falling flat on their face in the process.

    Lewis wrote semi-allegorically because that was how his mind worked; even his statement as to the creation of Narnia was that once the lion got into the picture, everything fell into place. This is how an intuitive thinker works. (I know because I’m one, too.) Lewis wrote using allegorical images and structures because that was what was natural for him; his education and familiarity with archaic allegories and storytelling meant he could use those images and structures correctly. And both these prerequisites are lacking among Christianese authors and Twitter pundits.

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  148. dee: That arrogance colors his inability to see beyond his paradigm. *We know! And we want you to ko that you are going to hell unless you see it our way.* He actually believes that he hold they keys to the kingdom…

    What would Christ ever do without Pastor Grima Wormtongue sitting as His right hand on J-Day, whispering in His ear who is REALLY Saved and WHO IS NOT?

    “ME SHEEP! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! …”

    God is SOOOOOOOOOO lucky to have him there.

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  149. Beware of ditching reason and logic altogether in matters of faith. That “strong feeling” or “sense of God’s leading” etc has led to things like the Jim Jones massacre, to molestations and rapes, and to many a cult. Spent too much time around fundamentalist LDS to accept that idea.

    If your special leading won’t stand up to scrutiny of scripture, doesn’t matter how strong you feel it, how good it makes you feel, how much society is accepting it, etc it is still imaginative horse puckey.

    (Helping a neighbor with farm choring this week if my thoughts are decidedly earthy.)

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  150. SiteSeer: Fwiw, I’ve understood this passage to mean that God’s perfect love for us drives out fear, because we relate to him not through the fear of punishment for every mistake or shortcoming we have, but rather through the knowledge that we are accepted in love

    Unfortunately “fear of punishment for every mistake or shortcoming we have” is too important a weapon in the preacher’s arsenal. Nothing motivates (and keeps the mutton in line and Tithing) like Eternal Hell.

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  151. dee: William Thornton did a good job on this over at SBC Voices

    It was good to see Thornton get on Ascol’s case about Longshore intimidating the rally speakers. I never expected SBC Voices to call out their own – this is encouraging. The protection of children is bigger than defending a theological tribe. Pushing Ascol into obscurity, along with other SBC wildmen, would be a good thing.

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  152. Lea: Presbyterians don’t have the same beliefs as Baptists on that front

    As a rebellious Southern Baptist teenager, I drank whiskey a time or two because I didn’t know how to dance 🙂 My father caught me sneaking in 2 hours after curfew one night. I got out of my friend’s car, carefully closed the door to not wake up my parents, and staggered to the nearest shrub in front of our house to throw up. Sicker than a dog, I tiptoed to the front door, to be greeted by my father sitting in the porch swing. “Son, did you learn your lesson tonight?” … “Yes sir” … as he opened the door to walk in the house, he turned “You broke your mother’s heart tonight.” …. Whew! That was enough for me. Haven’t drank whiskey since.

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  153. dee: My Lutheran church sold beer glasses with the emblem of the church on it as a fund raiser! I bought two.

    And Catholics are pretty well known for their drinking! Baptists are out of step on this really. Even when I was a Baptist I wasn’t sure why wine was off limits when it was the first miracle of Jesus described…

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  154. Lily Rose: Okay, have to ask. Why do they choose the acronym NAMB to represent themselves when it is similar to NAMBLA?

    It parallels IMB, which was founded in 1845. North American Mission Board and International Mission Board. And it’s my guess that they didn’t know about NAMBLA, even if it was on talk shows in the 90s. Or they thought Baptists were too naive to confuse them.

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  155. dee: I judge actions, not salvation. I put that one in God’s Hands and am grateful that I can do sol.

    Actions are salvation and salvation is actions.

    I know that’ll rattle a few cages, but I believe the two operands (actions and salvation) are bi-directional, one is a sufficient condition for the other to exist.

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  156. Muff Potter,

    That was certainly the case in the first Century, when the people who disregarded Jesus’ warnings to flee Jerusalem at the approach of armies found themselves trapped in the city and, in many cases, subsequently perished in the siege and were tossed over the walls into the Hinnom Valley, there being too little room within the city to bury all the dead.

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  157. Lea: This is a man who cannot sit and feel for others. Period. So he’s made a sin of it.

    It’s extremely sad to think that so many who read this drivel will believe what it says and refuse to show empathy because empathy has now been made into sin. Now it is quite acceptable to walk away, ignore, even scorn those who are most in need of empathy (convenient as well). What a twisted, wicked mind one needs to turn something good into sin.

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  158. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Back as a university freshman I was both shocked and pleased when my English professor had us read several chapters from Lewis’ “The Allegory of Love” for a Mideaval literature class. I only thought he wrote cool Christian allegory and apologetics. That was my introduction to Christian scholars who can think and relate to the “real” world. It was quite a revelation, and made me a serious student of both God’s Word and my education classes. I still love the world of Narnia, but I have a much greater appreciation for all the deep thought that went into it.

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  159. TS00:
    Lily Rose,

    Then I am not the only one who reads NAMBLA every time I see NAMB – of which I don’t even know the meaning.

    I thought it was the west coast division of NAMB

    N orth A merican M ission B oard LA. Los Angeles division

    Are you saying it means something else?

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  160. Bridget: It’s extremely sad to think that so many who read this drivel will believe what it says and refuse to show empathy because empathy has now been made into sin.

    Someone linked to the facebook page and people are like ‘man, I am really guilty of that empathy thing’ and I want to shout at them.

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  161. IMB was originally the Foreign Mission Board (it’s work was once divided into ‘pagan missions’ and ‘papal missions).

    NAMB was formerly known as the Home Missions Board.

    When I worked for what is now Lifeway it was called the Baptist Sunday School Board.

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  162. Jerome,

    Yeah. They were getting in trouble for not being politically correct, and changed the names. At that time, people were writing a lot of books in missions on the problems with considering other countries “foreign”. And I think they changed Lifeway so they could hide the fact that they were Baptist to Christians of other denominations.

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  163. Max:
    Another shot at SBC leaders from Beth Moore:

    “I mean, be against beer drinking if that’s your conviction. But keep your hands off children” (Beth Moore, June 17 tweet).

    A good teacher, she has a way of painting word pictures.Actually, one of the best SBC preachers out there

    What Ms. Moore may not know is that SBC’s New Calvinists don’t hold to the same beer-drinking conviction which once defined Southern Baptists (don’t drink, don’t dance, don’t cuss, don’t gamble, etc.).I often see new reformers in my area toting cases of beer at WalMart … there’s even a Calvinus Beer brand (no kidding).

    Max, Beth May bolt from the SBC, but if she stays, I predict Rev. Dwight McKissic will nominate Beth Moore for president of the SBC next year on Orlando, I want to get there early for this.
    But she may leave though, or she may stay for the president of Lifeway, it was the only open presidential office not filled before the convention in Birmingham.

    Most people feel it is the most powerful position in all of the SBC,
    They could have filled this position easily before Birmingham, but for some unknown reason they didn’t
    She would then be the gate keeper for all SBC literature

    That’s why I ask Dee about her opinion of Dr.Dwight McKissic earlier…….

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  164. Benn: the most powerful position in all of the SBC …

    … is President/CEO, SBC Executive Committee. Ronnie Floyd was recently elected to that post. That office is a year-round job where a lot of moving and shaking can be done behind the scenes. The office of SBC President (currently J.D. Greear) – typically a 2 year assignment – is more pomp and ceremony than anything else. They travel around the convention and give rally speeches to hold the gang together; some, like J.D. Greear, may venture into controversial matters but they don’t really have any power to do anything about it. The SBC is a complex machine. Having said all that, the defacto most powerful man in the SBC is Al Mohler … just look at how great a job he has done to take the denomination away from the mainline members without most even realizing it … brilliant!

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  165. Max: … is President/CEO, SBC Executive Committee.Ronnie Floyd was recently elected to that post.That office is a year-round job where a lot of moving and shaking can be done behind the scenes.The office of SBC President (currently J.D. Greear) – typically a 2 year assignment – is more pomp and ceremony than anything else.They travel around the convention and give rally speeches to hold the gang together; some, like J.D. Greear, may venture into controversial matters but they don’t really have any power to do anything about it.The SBC is a complex machine.Having said all that, the defacto most powerful man in the SBC is Al Mohler … just look at how great a job he has done to take the denomination away from the mainline members without most even realizing it … brilliant!

    But as president of Lifeway she would have tremendous latitude in printed material
    Lifeway moves a lot of children literature, VBS, and Sunday School literature

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  166. Benn: if she stays, I predict Rev. Dwight McKissic will nominate Beth Moore for president of the SBC next year on Orlando

    I wouldn’t doubt that from Dr. McKissic, but I doubt Moore would agree to do it. And I’m pretty sure the New Cals would never allow it. They’ll have someone from their camp ready to run.

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  167. ishy: I wouldn’t doubt that from Dr. McKissic, but I doubt Moore would agree to do it. And I’m pretty sure the New Cals would never allow it. They’ll have someone from their camp ready to run.

    Why do you think she wouldn’t do it?
    It would be a huge platform for her

    You are correct about them already plotting their cal replacement for J D

    The non cal’s are plotting as well
    They are going to make one major push to try to take back some lost ground

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  168. Max,

    I read an interesting set of comments from exvangelicals the other day, most of whom have left the faith altogether, about how all the things they were warned about ‘dancing leads to x’ etc just didn’t turn out to be true when they tried them. It turned out that dancing just led to dancing. Who knew?

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  169. Benn: Why do you think she wouldn’t do it?
    It would be a huge platform for her

    Just from following her on Twitter, she tends to retreat from direct fire. And I think there was a discussion at one time on Twitter where people were trying to convince her to run against Greear and she said she would never run because that’s not her calling.

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  170. Benn: Why do you think she wouldn’t do it?
    It would be a huge platform for her

    Beth Moore already has a pretty big footprint and influence in Christendom at this point. She knows that a 1-2 year stint as SBC President wouldn’t change much – the ole boys would go back to business as usual. You can sense from her words of recent that she’s running out of patience with the SBC patriarchy and their slow response to female subordination and child abuse issues.

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  171. The New Cals are so in a tizzy, they’re probably going to do something really stupid in this next election, like put forward Matt Chandler or Owen Strachan. I watched a few of those panels, and they were a disaster. And the fact that they quickly took the bad ones down is not a good sign.

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  172. Benn: Lifeway moves a lot of children literature, VBS, and Sunday School literature

    A growing number of “traditional” (non-Calvinist) churches are getting wise to LifeWay’s subtle introduction to reformed theology in their literature. “The Gospel Project” was a wakeup call to many of them (= The Calvinist Project). Several years ago, I personally complained to the editor of LifeWay’s young adult literature for their not-so-subtle Calvinist commentary. Some SBC churches in my area are creating their own study materials or buying from alternate (non-Calvinist) sources (e.g., Jerry Vines By the Book Sunday School curriculum).

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  173. Beakerj,

    “how all the things they were warned about ‘dancing leads to x’ etc just didn’t turn out to be true when they tried them. It turned out that dancing just led to dancing. Who knew?”
    ++++++++++++++

    now that’s funny!

    i would concur — none of the things i was gravely warned about have come to pass.

    precious few of the “promises” (conjectures, sometimes mere sayings that take on truth by how many times they’ve been communicated) have materialized as having even partial substance.

    doesn’t mean God/Jesus/Holy Spirit aren’t real or don’t resemble what’s described in the bible.

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  174. ishy,

    “The New Cals are so in a tizzy, they’re probably going to do something really stupid in this next election, like put forward Matt Chandler or Owen Strachan.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    in a tizzy… because women are rising? because of social justice concerns?

    how much is philosophical, and how much is a threat to their ego-manhood-power?

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  175. elastigirl: no, i haven’t talked to them all, but i reason faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (& Junia!) and Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit can’t have survived this long on cerebral terms. because it worked cerebrally, like an algebraic equation.

    Consider this:
    Their equations have no variables (independent or dependent), only constants.
    The arithmetic on both sides of the equals sign always matches up perfectly.
    Which it must even when variables are introduced.
    But the difference is that in their perfect world of no variables, certainty is assured, no thinking required, no solving for unknowns is needed.
    So in that sense, they’re anything but cerebral.

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  176. Max: I eventually danced with my wife (then girlfriend). It was liberating. I didn’t feel once like I was going to Hell when I hit the dance floor.

    That’s because you’re probably unregenerate and still at enmity with god.
    These things and especially those concerning the lusts of the flesh can only be discerned by the spiritual man, one who has been regenerated…

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  177. Guest: They just don’t care.

    They pretend what they want to be true is true; things that only benefit them.

    And they pretend what they don’t want to be true isn’t true.

    They despise anyone who will not pretend with them.

    “Rejoice, Comrades! The chocolate ration of twenty grams has been INCREASED to ten!”
    “Two Plus Two Equals Five!”

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  178. Lea: I don’t think I’ve seen a parody of screwtape that wasn’t dreadful.

    My takeaway is Lewis wrote in that semi-allegorical genre because it was natural for him to do so, a reflection of his personality and experience.

    These “Next C.S.Lewis” wanna-bes are FORCING themselves to write “just like Lewis” instead of finding their own voice. For them, its unnatural; you wind up with square peg, round hole, and sledgehammer (“YOU’LL FIT! YOU’LL FIT! YOU’LL FIT!”)

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  179. Max: The guy comes across as screwy rather than Screwtape.He’s been hanging out with Piper too long.

    Too bad his name isn’t Louis.
    Then he could go by the traditional name “Screwy Louie”.

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  180. TS00: Because it works on those in the fundagelical bubble. Like Pavlov’s dogs, they have been trained to salivate hate the moment anyone suggests support for homosexuality or abortion. No discussion allowed. No compassion for people struggling with life-shattering issues. Just hate. And ignore anything they have to say, however accurate or helpful.

    From Extra Sci-Fi’s series on Dystopian and Apocalyptic sub-genres:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrKwpDoDkc4
    (The part that echoes your observation starts around 4:00. As for the rest, does it remind anyone of some of these churches?)

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  181. Brian: what/who are the better sources for Sunday School, Bible study material?

    As mentioned, a lot of SBC traditional churches are now using “Vines by the Book” Sunday School curriculum. Dr. Jerry Vines was a long-time SBC pastor and two-term President of the SBC. He has prepared alternative teaching materials as a counter to the increasing influence of the New Calvinists in the production of LifeWay materials.

    https://www.jerryvines.com/about-us/

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  182. Doc Robinson: These things and especially those concerning the lusts of the flesh can only be discerned by the spiritual man, one who has been regenerated…

    i.e. – Gnosticism. Only the selected enlightened ones are in the know…

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  183. Beakerj: It turned out that dancing just led to dancing. Who knew?

    The reason Baptists are against pre-marital sex is because it could lead to dancing…

    Also, never go fishing with just one Baptist, because if you go with just one he will drink all your beer…

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  184. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    You might be Southern Baptist if …

    … you believe you are supposed to take a covered dish to heaven when you die … you raised your hands in church and felt guilty about it all week
    … you think someone who says “Amen!” while the pastor is preaching might be a charismatic

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  185. Max:
    Ken F (aka Tweed),

    You might be Southern Baptist if …

    … you believe you are supposed to take a covered dish to heaven when you die … you raised your hands in church and felt guilty about it all week
    … you think someone who says “Amen!” while the pastor is preaching might be a charismatic

    Max, google Tim Hawkins on hand easing
    Can’t provide the link now

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  186. Doc Robinson: That’s because you’re probably unregenerate and still at enmity with god.

    Fortunately for all of us here, Founders reposted this link yesterday to help us sort this out: https://founders.org/2015/01/22/the-difference-between-the-true-christian-and-the-hypocrite/.

    The Founder’s standard is so elusive as to render everyone unsaved except for the deluded. But in the end it doesn’t even matter whether one is a true Christian or not because there is nothing anyone can do to get on or off the list that was locked in stone in eternity past. Or is there?

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  187. elastigirl: in a tizzy… because women are rising? because of social justice concerns?

    how much is philosophical, and how much is a threat to their ego-manhood-power?

    I think it’s definitely a threat… But that tends to make people do dumb and desperate things.

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  188. Samuel Conner: When I am in a grumpier mood, I sometimes toy with the idea of challenging true Reformed people to prove to themselves that the grace they perceive themselves to be experiencing is not evanescent.

    The silent point of Calvinism. It is very hard to find a Calvinist who knows about that teaching from Calvin’s Institutes. When you can find one, they almost always confuse it with common grace, which is a completely different topic. That article by Founders is the closest thing I’ve read that comes close to describing it. But that article did not go all the way as Calvin himself did.

    I don’t think Doc is truly reformed because his comment is too comical. Pure satire.

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  189. Pingback: Malevolence, incompetence, and ignorance in the SBC concerning abuse – christian-99.com

  190. Max: I eventually danced with my wife (then girlfriend). It was liberating. I didn’t feel once like I was going to Hell when I hit the dance floor.

    I’m betting that Jesus (at Cana) sang, danced, and partied down with the best of them, and that he might even have been hung over the next day.

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  191. Muff Potter: I’m betting that Jesus (at Cana) sang, danced, and partied down with the best of them, and that he might even have been hung over the next day.

    Joyful feasts appear to be part of the schedule in olden times and in future, but not drunkenness given the number of times it’s called out and listed on the sinful side of things (1 Cor. 6:10, Gal. 5:21, etc.

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  192. Doc Robinson: Max: I eventually danced with my wife (then girlfriend). It was liberating. I didn’t feel once like I was going to Hell when I hit the dance floor.
    That’s because you’re probably unregenerate and still at enmity with god.

    Parody or real? So hard to tell sometimes…the best dry sarcasm sounds like the realest nonsense.

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  193. JDV: not drunkenness given the number of times it’s called out and listed on the sinful side of things (1 Cor. 6:10, Gal. 5:21, etc.

    I mean, the guests were impressed they saved the good wine till everybody was drunk and it was specifically noted…

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  194. Lea: I mean, the guests were impressed they saved the good wine till everybody was drunk and it was specifically noted…

    Jesus’ own words: “For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon’; the Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners!’ Nevertheless, wisdom is vindicated by all her children.” —Luke 7:33-35

    The accusations against Jesus were meant to discredit. He was criticized for associating with the very people he came to deliver. Can’t resist pointing out that he failed to follow the Billy Graham rule.

    Jesus drank. Many Christians view drinking as sin. Jesus did not sin. The temperance movement had elaborate arguments to reconcile all of this.

    Can we agree that Jesus was not a problem drinker?

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  195. Bridget: It’s extremely sad to think that so many who read this drivel will believe what it says and refuse to show empathy because empathy has now been made into sin. Now it is quite acceptable to walk away, ignore, even scorn those who are most in need of empathy (convenient as well). What a twisted, wicked mind one needs to turn something good into sin.

    Only wicked people, like those Samaritans, would show empathy or compassion toward others. I seem to remember a parable along those lines.

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  196. Lea: Parody or real? So hard to tell sometimes…the best dry sarcasm sounds like the realest nonsense.

    Because as far-out and over-the-top you get in parody, there are True Believers out there twice as far-out, twice as over-the-top, and DEAD SERIOUS. “DIE, HERETIC!” SERIOUS.

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  197. TS00: Scripture notes that wine makes the heart glad – but somewhere the line is crossed into drunkenness.

    There was also something about how people who are…poor or having a bad day or something (I don’t feel like looking up the reference atm) should be the ones drinking..

    Friend: Can we agree that Jesus was not a problem drinker?

    I certainly never implied that, merely that the people at the party where he made wine were probably pretty deep into their celebration at that point.

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  198. Lea: I certainly never implied that

    I should have written “Can we all agree…” to make it clear I wasn’t implying you implied that.

    This is bringing back overpowering memories of the temperance activists in my family. I still feel uncomfortable walking into convenience stores because they all sell beer. And yet I think light drinking is just fine.

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  199. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    “Which is the most pressing issue in the SBC today? Sexual abuse or the Bible’s teaching about manhood”

    Imagine typing this and thinking its even a question.

    And looking at the evidence and typing this: First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse without addressing the myriad of bad outcomes present in ‘dudes rule, ladies drool’ church culture.

    The Feminist solution, which says that the answer to sexual abuse is to make men softer, more like women, so that they won’t abuse women, is no solution at all.

    Just IMAGINE coming to this conclusion based on the evidence presented. These people are thick. Is telling men to NOT ABUSE WOMEN making them ‘softer’? Hey guess what, women rape less than men do. I would be happy to make men more like women in this way, and any man who does not denigrate women would as well. Maybe women have something to teach men in this department.

    But then we come to it:

    Second, Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.

    LEVERAGE. They don’t want women talking about this issue because they don’t want them to get into a position where they are less likely to be abused.

    I hate and despise everything about this article. Thanks for sharing.

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  200. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    They’re blame shifting, creating a red herring.

    They’re trying to keep their ranks cohesive by creating a false outside enemy.

    They’re still using the abusers paradigm, someone else causes them to act that way.

    This article is also why I like pastors to make solid Scriptural references. Instead, here they used one verse to support a bunch of hot air.

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  201. Lea,

    “Second, Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    …and i think we’ve come to the premise for the documentary they are making, and what was behind the ambush interviews at the For Such A Time As This rally.

    tricking and trapping them, for the purpose of discrediting and indicting them.

    the gentlemen with hand-held mics, lapel mics, and camera gear are manipulative scumbags.

    (can i call them by name, followed by “manipulative scumbags”?)

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  202. elastigirl: the gentlemen with hand-held mics, lapel mics, and camera gear are manipulative scumbags.

    Yes.

    Because women only talk about abuse and ways to prevent it because we want ‘LEVERAGE’. Sounds more like a bunch of men who can’t answer questions and hate that anyone else might have a valid point or moral issue to be addressed.

    I am INFURIATED by this comment, in case anyone can’t tell. Leverage. ^&%&^%&%^&%

    Maybe men in church and in life should stop giving us so much ‘leverage’.

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  203. elastigirl: tricking and trapping them, for the purpose of discrediting and indicting them.

    That entire article was ‘why don’t women just shut up and let men handle things, because they’ve clearly been doing a GREAT JOB SO FAR’.

    Ahem. Until they admit that putting people in a position of ‘authority’ over another group of people and refusing to listen to that group (and oh how mad he was that he was being asked to listen) leads to really bad outcomes they will continue to have really bad outcomes.

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  204. Lea: Because women only talk about abuse and ways to prevent it because we want ‘LEVERAGE’. Sounds more like a bunch of men who can’t answer questions and hate that anyone else might have a valid point or moral issue to be addressed.

    It’s even worse, because a majority of the articles about the SBC, as well as a number of the victims at the rally, were abused as children. And they want to say the people at the rally were trying to take their “manhood” away?

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  205. ishy: And they want to say the people at the rally were trying to take their “manhood” away?

    If they really think that, they need to think good and hard about what that means.

    This obsession with ‘strength’ and putting women in their place contributes to abuse. They don’t want to hear that, they’d rather be mad at ‘feminists’. If they won’t look at that they will do nothing to fix it. Which is what will happen, honestly. They’re doing nothing right now and super happy about it.

    This idea that if they just shove ‘biblical’ manhood down people’s throats the problem will go away is magical thinking. It’s stupid too. And heartless. Is biblical manhood heartless?? It is to them, I think.

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  206. Brian: Isn’t this a description of pride?

    I would say scapegoating too, but the scapegoat was supposed to carry away the sins of the people, thus giving them relief. The Biblical manhood dudes do not believe their ideas are sinful, and they hardly ever find a case of abuse they consider worthy of repentance.

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  207. ishy: And they want to say the people at the rally were trying to take their “manhood” away?

    “They’re after Our Precious Bodily Fluids…”
    — General Jack D Ripper, Doctor Strangelove

    “IT’S THE MUTANT SPACE BUNNIES! THEIR TRYING TO STEAL OUR GRAVITY!”
    — Local shock comic “2 the Ranting Griffin”, about the effects of LSD

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  208. Lea: Parody or real? So hard to tell sometimes…the best dry sarcasm sounds like the realest nonsense.

    Ken F (aka Tweed): I don’t think Doc is truly reformed because his comment is too comical. Pure satire.

    Think of Doc’s comment as black comedy, along the lines of Mel Brooks’s The Producers.

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  209. Doc Robinson: That’s because you’re probably unregenerate and still at enmity with god.
    These things and especially those concerning the lusts of the flesh can only be discerned by the spiritual man, one who has been regenerated…

    When you find one, ask him what he thinks of you.

    lol

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  210. Off topic but we’ve added a very updated set of rules for commenting on the blog. You can see them via the menus or by clicking on the link just above the comment box.

    Now back to your regular discussion.

    Thank You
    GBTC

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  211. Lily Rose: Okay, have to ask. Why do they choose the acronym NAMB to represent themselves when it is similar to NAMBLA?…so hard to believe they never heard of it.

    The name North American Mission Board (NAMB for short) was chosen in the late 1990s when the SBC’s failing Radio & Television Commission was merged with its Home Mission Board. The Southern Baptist ‘Brotherhood Commission’ was also absorbed into the new NAMB entity:

    http://www.bpnews.net/4047/namb-continues-missions-education-including-ras-baptist-men-programs

    (Sept. 1997) “the Brotherhood Commission…was dissolved this past summer, along with the Home Mission Board and the Radio and Television Commission. Their primary ministries…were assigned to NAMB.”

    The Brotherhood Commission was formerly known as the ‘Baptist Brotherhood of the South’

    Historian Leon McBeth on the Baptist Brotherhood:

    “its work was said to be ‘To seek and discover the talents of the men and boys in Southern Baptist churches, challenge them to action, and utilize their talents for Christ.”

    It had “a number of special programs, including an annual Layman’s Day, beginning in 1933; the Man and Boy Movement, begun in 1949; a number of national conferences on men’s work; and several programs in the 1970s on lay renewal. In 1954 the work of Royal Ambassadors, the missionary education program for boys, was transferred from WMU to the Brotherhood, a transfer completed in 1957.”

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  212. Dee: I owe you a huge apology. You and I had disagreement over Tom Ascol. It was so long ago I don’t remember when it was, but I was wrong. I hope that when I am wrong, I say I am wrong. You don’t have to accept this apology and I will totally understand. I was very strong in my response to an accusation against Tom to the point of insulting you and must say that this last Convention showed me what he really thinks and the low ways he will go to achieve his goals. This ambush was the lowest and I am going through a myriad of things in light of this.

    I can’t even fathom coming into a Rally such as this and doing what he did, responding the way he did to a church associated with Founders, and I believe begun by Voddie Baucham(I could be wrong on that, but think the info correct) and respond to it as he had. Using it as a weapon. I am truly gobsmacked. I am also very sorry. I disagreed with you in public and so I think I need to apologize to you in public. It’s also perfectly understandable if you do not accept it.

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  213. Lea: Because women only talk about abuse and ways to prevent it because we want ‘LEVERAGE’. Sounds more like a bunch of men who…

    …can only think in terms of Power Struggle.
    Top or Bottom, Dom or Sub, Hold the Whip or Feel the Whip, Kill or be Killed, Eat or be Eaten.

    “When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.”
    — Cersei Lannister, Game of Thrones

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  214. Lea: Well. They would do well if they did realize that abuse is about power, and if you put a group of people perpetually on the bottom they will be abused.

    Which is the God-Ordained Natural Order of Things to those on top who Hold the Whip.

    Remember a certain Peculiar Institution regarding the status of certain Animate Property?

    “I Got Mine,
    I Got Mine,
    The World’s the Way It’s Meant to Be,
    I Got Mine…

    “I Got Mine,
    I Got Mine,
    I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
    NOW THAT I GOT MINE!”
    — Glen Frey, 1992, “I Got Mine”

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